The Holy Spirit is Not an “It” – J. Lee Grady
We charismatics celebrate the Holy Spirit, yet our theology of the
Spirit is often off balance.
Two popular charismatic speakers stood on a stage two years ago
and decided they should demonstrate the power of the Holy Spirit.
One guy pretended to throw an imaginary “fireball” at his friend,
who promptly fell over as if he had been zapped by the divine power.
Then, feeling equally playful, the guy on the floor stood to his feet
and threw the “fireball” back at his friendwho fell after the “blob”
of God hit him.
Everybody laughed and had a hilarious time at this outrageous
party. There was just one problem. The Holy Spirit is not a blob,
a fireball or any other form of divine energy that can be thrown,
manipulated, maneuvered or controlled.
This scenario happened in a charismatic churcha place
where the ministry of the Holy Spirit is presumably honored
and understood. It’s incredibly sad that many of us who wear
the charismatic label have forgotten what the Scriptures teach
about the third person of the Trinity. At the risk of sounding way
too elementary, I’d like to offer this basic layman’s guide to
pneumatologythe study of the Holy Spirit and how He works:
1. He is the Spirit of the Lord. He is not a force (as in Star Wars),
a magical power or an “it.” The Holy Spirit is God, and we should
revere Him as God. The concept of the Trinity doesn’t make sense
to the human mind. Yet Scripture reveals God as a triune being.
As theologian Norman Geisler writes: “God is one what (nature)
with three whos (persons). This is a mystery but not a
contradiction.”
2. He is our Regenerator. Jesus told Nicodemus that we are
born again by the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). True conversion is the
most supernatural thing we will ever experience! When a person
puts his faith in Christ for salvation, it is the Spirit who opens the
heart and quickens divine life. He then indwells us. While this is
an invisible process, it is no less miraculous. When we are
converted our hearts cry out, “Abba! Father” because the Holy
Spirit is “the Spirit of adoption” (Romans 8:15); He gives us
confidence that we are now children of God.
3. He is our Empowerer. When we are baptized in the Holy
Spirit we are “clothed with power from on high” (Luke 24:49,
NASB). The Spirit who already indwells us fills us to the point
of overflowing. Jesus said the Holy Spirit’s power would flow
out of us like “rivers of living water” from our innermost being
(John 7:38). This overflow releases supernatural boldness
(Acts 4:31) as well as the anointing for various gifts of the
Spirit including prophecy, speaking in tongues and healing.
4. He is the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit has access to all the
wisdom and knowledge of God. When we abide in Him, He
leads us continually into truthcausing us to grow and
mature spiritually. He wants to fill us with the treasures of
heavenly revelation. We can fully trust Him because He never
does anything to violate the Word of God. As our teacher
(1 John 2:27), He knows the difference between truth and error,
and those who depend on Him will walk in discernment and
avoid deception, pride and carnality.
5. He is our Counselor. This word is also translated “Advocate,”
“Comforter” or “Helper.” The Greek word, parakletos, means “one
called alongside to help.” It implies that the Spirit comes to our
legal defense when we are accused or troubled; it also means
He is a close friend who offers encouragement, consolation and
direction when we face any difficulty. He is truly a friend who
“sticks closer than a brother” (Prov. 18:24).
READ THE REST AT- http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/fire-in-my-bones/28182–the-holy-spirit-is-not-an-it
-J. Lee Grady served as editor of Charisma for 11 years. His newest
book is ‘The Holy Spirit Is Not for Sale’.
Mr. Grady,
May I ask how does one know that one is baptized in the Holy Spirit and is there any evidence that follows? You that the percentage is high that most professing Christians aren’t baptized with the Holy Spirit as Christ expects and gives commandment to do so. The devil has made an age old war out of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost what it is and when He is received.
thanks
Elihu
I meant to say “you know that the percentage is high that most professing Christians aren’t baptized with the Holy Spirit as Christ expects and gives commandment to do so”. left out the word “know”.
thanks
To be honest, Elihu – I still hold to the classic Pentecostal position myself – that “tongues” should be an initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit – like we see in Acts.
It is a sign that the “holy utterance” of God has taken over a person’s mouth – very important. But of course the most important change is INSIDE the person – filled with the holiness and love of God.
Blessings!
Andrew Strom
This is a good summary
I would add Job 32:8 and reinforce His teaching with Jn 16:13 where Jesus said that The Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth and not just spiritual truth.
In the New Testament He is no longer The Spirit of The Lord but is addressed as a separate person in His own right.
He is the representative of Jesus on earth at the moment and is the one who guides us to be used by Jesus.
I would also add He is a humble servant and never points to Himself but focuses us on Jesus and The Father.
In fact Jn 17:3 leaves Him out when it defines Salvation as a relationship with The Father and Jesus as this relationship can only be a part of our life if it is guided by The Holy Spirit in us. So His working in this relationship is implied.
We are to respect Him as God. Love Him because of His Love for us and the role He humbles Himself to carry out in our life. But Jesus is King and to promote Him over Jesus in any way is incorrect. We are citizens of The kingdom of God and Jesus is our Lord and no one else. In Heaven it will be different but on earth Jesus and The Will of The Father is to be our focus and anything else is idolatry.
In regards to tongues
If The Holy Spirit fills our soul so that demons cannot use it. What then is filled by The Holy Spirit after we are saved?
It cannot be an infilling of our spirit as He infills that when we are saved? All that is left is the soul unless we do not understand the filling to be an actual filling but an anointing in which case we need to stop using the term filling and use only anointing.
Anyone know the answer as I do not
I understand that speaking in tongues is one of the many spiritual gifts. When we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead for our salvation isn’t that when we are filled with the spirit. I have met a lot of very (what I saw) Godly people who didn’t speak in tongues. I have met a lot of people that compromise their Christian walk claim to speak in tongues.
Thank you for this post, it is very heartening to see the simple truth published. The Church of Jesus Christ is seriously under coordinated attack and many now have no “love of the truth”.
The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to glorify the Father and the Son, not even to take any glory for Himself. My hearts cry for the body of believers is that we would corporately return to the Rock of our salvation and lift Him high – “If you lift me up I will draw all men to me”. We don’t have to do anything but lift Him up and He will do the rest; that we would corporately rely on the helper we have been given – the Holy Spirit – to instruct us in all truth, love and the Word, the He may reveal to us the true glory of the heavenly realms – the lamb of God.
Blessings,
Gary
I agree that the Holy Spirit is a part of the God-head and He should be addressed as an equal part of the three in one. Since He was there from the beginning of time and is mentioned at creation.
What do you think of the following scriptures?
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits,G4151 and his ministers G3011 a flameG5395 of fire.G4442
Who is the “his ministers” referring to?
Strong’s G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo’-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: – ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind.
Strong’s G3011 – λειτουργός – leitourgos – li-toorg-os’
From a derivative of G2992 and G2041; a public servant, that is, a functionary in the Temple or Gospel, or (generally) a worshipper (of God) or benefactor (of man): – minister (-ed).
Strong’s G5395 – φλόξ – phlox – flox
From a primary φλέγω phlegō (to “flash” or “flame”); a blaze: – flame (-ing).
Strong’s G4442 – πῦρ – pur – poor
A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): – fiery, fire.
If we say that the Holy Spirit lives inside of us, then can He not manifest with flames of fire through us?
What about this reference?
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fireG4442 proceedethG1607 out of their mouth,G4750 andG2532 devourethG2719 their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
AW
This is a very good article. I have been in prayer meetings where there just was not a reverence of the fear of the LORD..
He certainly has not changed we have. I pray that all people see that the HOLY GHOST IS HOLY… We are all men and women of unclean lips and should reverence His presence and have a reverential fear of HIM..
He is Holy.. Isa 6: 1- 1 ¶ In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. {his…: or, the skirts thereof}
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 ¶ Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of host
Do we know that we are all men and women of unclean lips.. He alone is HOLY.. Ps 30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness
Unless we realize this we will not see GOD.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
(KJV)
Father I thank you for your HOLY GHOST. Send a revival of HOLINESS Father. let Holiness and a reverential fear of you come back in to all your children, churches and nations. I pray in JESUS name.
When looking at the spiritual Gifts to the body of Christ,given by the Holy Spirit as he choses, The gift of tongues with the interpatation of tongues is as prophecy. One gives spiritual utterance from the Holy Spirit, and they or another will interpate what the Holy Spirit has said thru the saint of God.
Concerning the Gift of the Holy Spirit of speaking in tongues, Not all are given this Gift but perhaps one or more of the other eight Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Speaking in tongues when being evidenced of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for all believers whom have received this Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
These are two differant things, one is given as one of the nine GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT, as whom the Holy Spirit choses, this gift is to edity the body of Christ and is to be used with the GIFT OF INTERPERATION OF TONGUES, the other occurs when one has received THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT . It is for that person alone to editify ones self and is also part of our prayer langusge also used to glorify God in song, and brings one very close to our Lord.
The word says the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is given to EMPOWER US FOR THE GOSPEL of Jesus Christ, and there is an evident change come about in the saint of God many begin to hate sin in their life and begin to have a hunger to see the lost saved.
When we are first saved, we have believed the gospel, and begin to believe in faith, and the Holy Spirit has brought conviction of sin and we repent and ask forgiveness of sins, this is not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit but the sealing of the Hoy Spirit that then takes place Ephesians tells us this. The two are seperate, but the sealing of the Holy Spirit takes place first.
This is what I believe the word of God bears out.
God Bless, Lynn
Reading my bible this morning I prayed – Lord, what should I be reading today? I was led to read Daniel, Chapter 9 – Daniel’s prayer of repentence for his people.
In verse 13 we read that despite God sending ‘all this disaster’ the people did not repent of their sin.
Isn’t this the situation today? How much more does the world need to repent of their sin?
God spoke in the state of Victoria / Australia very harshly. In October 2008 a very bad law was passed by their parliament, virtually allowing abortion to be carried out right up to birth. 120 days later, just outside their capital Melbourne, the biggest firestorm ever killed over 170 people, the highest toll of any natural disaster in Australia,
Do you think the people repented and turned away from their evil ways? No – instead they ‘crucified’ anyone, who dared to hint that God was speaking. HE wants all to turn back to HIM and follow HIS ways.
Andrew, can you speak to the church today concerning godly men and women who beg God for the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the manifestation of tongues but years go by and yet have not been given this gift? I just don’t get it. If it’s neccessary and the church believes it and asks for it….why wouldn’t God give them what He knows they need?
When I was endued with power from on high I didn,t beg God didn,t say in his word to beg He said you will recieve power from on high to be my wittnesses .So I said Lord Jesus what ever you want to give me I recieve. I went up to the altar recieved the Holy Spirit spoke with other tongues as the spirit gave utterance, after that it seems like when I talked to people I was compelled to tell them about what Jesus did for mankind, it was like an unction from the Holy Spirit , acts 1:7,8 All glory to YAHWEY !
I completely understand the truth in this article. Lee missed three things.
The Bible calls the Spirit by the term “it”. The Spirit was not in the form
of a dove, that would be sacrilegious and demeaning. He landed like a dove
and had a bodily form or shape. None of the Godhead ever appeared in animal
forms that could cause earth worship type leanings.
Otherwise, the hoopla often seen at false anointed meetings should be
rejected by true believers and those who want a real baptism of the Holy
Ghost and fire, with real miracles and a mighty anointing!
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the
children of God:
Ro 8:26 ¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not
what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh
intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Also, He is not a person, He is a spirit. God the Father is a Spirit. The Spirit is Spirit. Only the Son ever became a person.
You may have unknown evil spirits or sin that can block the Holy Spirit from entering. Sometimes you need help to get rid of the evil and then you can receive the Holy Spirit. I had Full gospel business people pray for me with no result.
A man who had wisdom and insight into the spiritual realm prayed over me and commanded evil spirits to leave me. The next time I met that same man he asked me if I would like to receive the gift of speaking in tongues and all the people in the room spoke in their tongue and then I received a few words. As time went by I received more and more words.
Now I can even sing in tongues and it is a great gift to have as a hot line to heaven. It renews your spirit.
Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost.
Hi Andrew,
I do agree with all that you say. I believe in the manifest power and glory of the risen Christ in and through us, that the Holy Spirit will and indeed does empower us to miracles, wonders and signs of power. I also believe that this will increase.
What I am also deeply saddened by is people that we have prayed with, had fellowship with, broken bread with, worshipped with, laughed with and loved the Lord with, that have now lost their love of the truth and are following doctrines of demons – all in the name of the Lord – that will not accept any council or correction, that will not repent and be healed, whose hearts have quickly grown cold.
There are a great many people who are seeking “glorious” things without seeking Scripture and the face of our Saviour first and foremost. There are demonic doctrines that are very new age and also ancient in their origins and specifically forbidden to us in Scripture – doctrines that people are blindly following. These doctrines are deceiving many who follow them regardless of the obvious disobedience to Scripture, the witness of the Holy Spirit and of other believers.
I believe that what my wife and I have witnessed recently is this: (we both thought that this verse was very sobering, but Derek Prince’s comment is that this verse is probably the scariest passage in Scripture)
2 Thessalonians 2:11
11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
God Himself sends this delusion to these people so they will believe in the lying signs wonders and miracles – why?
2 Thessalonians 2:9-11
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
Because they refused to love the truth.
I could write many pages but I will leave it here:
I am certain that many would agree that the Church of Jesus Christ – the collective Bride and body of believers – is divided and in disarray to say the very least. Many doctrines, many denominations, many people want to be “someone” of importance, self appointed apostles, prophets, revelators, even spirits of the dead getting involved now.
So much teaching and preaching – very little Scripture – manuals, books, cd’s etc etc etc.
Much talk of renewal and revival – little or no talk of repentance.
If Christ is preached pure and simple, He will confirm His words with power, with signs wonders and miracles – true signs wonders and miracles.
John 12
32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.
Gary
The J. Lee Grady article certainly has sparked some interest.
I whole heartedly agree with the statement that God’s Holy Spirit isn’t an impersonal “it”.
In the New Testament Greek the word Spirit is ‘pneuma’ which is neither masculine nor feminine, but neutral.
The translators of the KJV bible had to decide whether to refer to the Holy Sprit as a He or She rather than the impersonal term “it”, so they chose to go with the masculine. (Most probably as they were all men). Subsequent translators have followed suit.
The Old Testament Hebrew word for spirit is ‘ruwach’ and is feminine. (There is no neutral gender in this language). The prophecy about Jesus in Isaiah 61:1 “The Spirit (ruwach) of the Sovereign LORD is on me” (feminine) is the same spirit Jesus refers to in Luke 4: 18 “The Spirit (pneuma) of the Lord is on me” (neutral).
Isa 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him– the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD–(ruwach- feminine). All these attributes of the Spirit are mentioned in the New Testament & which Jesus said would be received by those who were to become believers.
Whether God’s Spirit is masculine or feminine it is of no real consequence. Most importantly, Jesus said that the true worshipers must worship God in spirit and in truth. John 4:23 & 24.
Jesus was glorified so that this could be possible John 7:37-38.
Jesus said that we must be born of the spirit to see or enter God’s realm. John3: 3 & 5.
As the Apostle Paul was inspired to say bluntly to the church; Rom 8:9 “You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.”
As far as scripture is concerned there is no confusion as to whom an “anointed” one is; i.e. a “Christian”.
Someone who has the ability to build themselves up on the most holy faith by praying in the Holy Spirit (tongues) Jude 20. Who by the same means is encouraged to pray for others. Ephesians 6:18.
Who has access to, and encouraged to covet earnestly the nine spiritual manifestations in the church.
1 Cor.12: 1-11.
The Apostle Peter declared on the day of Pentecost that God’s Holy Spirit was a gift to be received in association with one’s repentance and baptism. Acts .2:38-39.
Jesus also said that receiving the Holy Spirit would empower you. Acts1:8.
The Holy Spirit, whether this is He or She as we perceive spiritual powers, is a personal life-changing force, and a down payment for eternal life. Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
AW says: “You may have unknown evil spirits or sin that can block the Holy Spirit from entering. Sometimes you need help to get rid of the evil and then you can receive the Holy Spirit.”
Could someone please tell me where in the Bible it says that demons can prevent the Holy Spirit from enter a person who is praying to receive HIM ( as opposed to receiving “the gift of tongues”).
Since when does the Holy Spirit have to ask permission from a demon to come into a person who has repented and asked Him in? Surely God in all forms of the Trinity is stronger than demons.
Hi Cassie,
You are right, the Holy Spirit does not need to ask permission of any demon. What can happen sometimes is the demonic bondage in our own life closes us to receiving the Holy Spirit. It is not uncommon for a person to go through some sort of deliverance then receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit immediately or soon afterwards.
The Apostles simply baptised those who believed the Gospel and repented, then laid hands on them and prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit.
Regarding the gift of tongues, the Scriptural evidence of receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the gift of tongues in every instance mentioned in Scripture as far as I am aware.
Hi Cassie- a couple of scriptures to assure you that when you as God to give you something He has promised- then the enemy has no influence at all.
(Luke 11:9 -13 NIV) “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?
Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
When you receive God’s power (Holy Spirit) he will give you proof that you are a believer.
One of these proofs (signs) is that you will have power over evil (verse 17)- Mark 16:17 & 18 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; (18) they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
In response to what is the sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, PETER tells us in Acts 15 that it is a CLEANSED HEART.
No power, no tongues or anything else. A clean heart, no stain, no sin, no carnal nature.
Whereas, the Corinthians who had many of the gifts of the Holy Spirit were told they were carnal.
God Bless.
a bondslave in Christ Jesus
Great article! I stopped going to charismatic conferences after I attended one in the ’90s and heard the speakers calling the Holy Spirit to come and do their bidding–like they were calling a dog! I just wonder what it is they are calling down and hurling about these days?
Gary Martin I agree and want to give a witness to what you stated earlier about the “glory” and a lack of reverence in this spiritual stuff that is going on in the name of the Lord. I have been grieved and in prayer over this. About 6-9 months ago, after having seen this false spirit at work for many months with dear friends of mine who honestly love the Lord and seek Him earnestly, I was praying and I said, “Lord, you said that the deception in the end would be so great that it would fool the very elect if that were possible. Show me what that will be so I may be aware, show me how it will manifest.” That was and is my cry to the Lord in this hour. His answer has come over the last months and is very sobering. He explained it like this to me. Pentecost was our Mount Sinai…on Mt. Sinai the Law was given in the upper room the Holy Spirit was given. When Jesus came the first time the law had been so perverted by the additions made by the people that it was unrecognizable…they didn’t take away from the Torah they added to it (and by doing that naturally they took from it) He corrected them on their misuse of it in no uncertain terms…History repeats itself…At Pentacost He sent the Comforter who would lead us into all truth, convict us of sin and give us power to overcome the world. What we have seen in the past and see so so much now is the defiling ourselves with other spirits….and we don’t even see it. We want goose bumps and glory and manifestations like drug addicts. We have no reverence for the Holiness of the Spirit adn call him down at will to perform tricks for us. We are perverting the working of the Spirit like they perverted the law. God Help Us.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR THIS TRUE WONDERFUL ARTICULE ON THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT ALL BELIEVERS SHOULD DESIRE TO BE INDWELLED WITH : )!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes my brothers. It is good that we can (and should) be filled with the spirit according to his word. But also let us not forget that the Holy Spirit has fruit (Galations 5) and the spirit has a desire to cause that fruit to mature in us and bring about Godly charcater. Just think about God’s saints being “filled with the spirit” and “displaying the fruit of the spirit” along with it. What an army of God that would be. Remeber, if we live by the spirit, let us also walk in it!
Lee,
One question and one question only. Was the Holy Spirit ever at the Lakeland Revival?
A simple yes or no will do.
Thanks
Andrew,
I understand your point of view but disagree with “tongues” being the sign. As paul pointed to Prophecy. There are a variety of gifts, variety of service, and variety of operation for each gift accordign to 1 Corinthians 12.
Here is the big thing though brother. If you examine the OT indwelling of the OT, you see that when a person was “filled” with the Holy Spirit they “prophesied.” This occurred with Moses and people in Israel, when the Spirit upon moses was dispersed. “They did not keep on” with the prophesying. Saul initially filled with Holy Spirit Prophesied. Joel refers to operations of “prophesying.” Paul clearly delineates Tongues as the least beneficial gift. Yet, some how in our minds and theology it has taken on greater import as it did with the corinth church.
Ken makes a great point. The fullness of the Spirit is really the fullness of God Himself!
As I said earlier, I still hold to the classic Pentecostal position – that “tongues” should be an initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit – like we see in Acts. But of course the most important change is INSIDE the person – filled with the holiness and love of God. The “utterance” of God’s Spirit has importance in the sense that there is something powerful in His “word” flowing forth from our lips – a holy utterance. But the INSIDE changes are most vital.
PB – I see what you are saying – and I agree that in the Old Testament “Prophecy” came forth as an ‘utterance’. But I do see pretty strong evidence in Acts that “tongues” was initially expected in the New Testament. Of course, both tongues and prophecy are a form of “holy utterance”.
Blessings!
Andrew Strom
Thirty eight years ago I was born again, healed of a brain tumor, and filled with the Holy Ghost in fifteen minutes time. The Holy Ghost is part of the Godhead and we must worship the Lord in Spirit and truth. He is our comforter and it is by his power in us that we take this gospel to the ends of the earth.
He the Spirit will guide is into all truth, teach us all things, and bring all things to our rememberance.
I too believe that the Holy Spirit is not an “it” and should not be referred to as such. Concerning tongues, I get concerned about the offense it seems to cause so many. Our attitude in any gift from God should never be, “Do I have too….but… do I get too..” Whatever God thinks I need, I want to receive freely. I love that refreshing when we speak in tongues (pray in another language) by the unction of the Holy Spirit. I do notice a stronger unction if I’m in public and an interpretation is desired by the Spirit. The weight of the spirit seems much stronger than if I’m home alone just praying in tongues. That shows me that both are needed and more power is needed at given times for the purpose for which God wants at the time. I really believe most miraculous healings occur when a strong unction of the spirit is present and one lays hands on a person or prays for a person and the unction is there for healing. That type of healing should bring glory only to God and never to the person praying. This is where we mess up the most. We tend to exalt the one praying instead of the Lord. Tongues also are to bring glory to God in praise and thanksgiving, never to make the one praying look super spiritual or higher than anyone else. If we remember to exercise all gifts to bring about God’s will and purpose and take no credit for His work, these things will all work out for good.
Like I said, I understand where you are coming from. Just remember, that there are a variety of gifts, service, and operation for each manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Not all spoke in tongues, as Paul, stated, I wish that all could, but it is the HOly Spirit that gives as the Holy Spirit gives. The key is surrender of self, fully. The fuller evidence of life walking in step with the Spirit is in the fruit that is produced. This is evidenced throughout scripture. And in this day of falseness and demonic passing itself off as truth, it is even more sure. As there are many that fall for the counterfit, not recognizing the truth.
The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, our Comforter, our Guide into all truth. This is what the Bible teaches. He convicts people of sin; He reveals Christ to us; we cannot call Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit; He gets grieved; He is lied to with dire consequences (see Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5); He fills us. We become His temple. He comes upon people and that is recognized in Acts 10:45-46 by them speaking in tongues and praising God; He can be blasphemed which is the unpardonable sin.
There is no teaching in the Bible that says anything about the Holy Spirit versus demons within a believer. All of that “doctrine” that a believer can’t be demonized is based on an interpretation of a passage about a demon coming back to a swept clean house and bringing other demons with him. In the Bible, we see demons cast out by the power of the authority of Jesus, His name, and the authority bestowed upon the believer by God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). However, in Romans 15:16, it says that the Gentiles are sanctified (made holy) by the Holy Spirit, so we can extrapolate from that that we are cleansed from demon torment. But it doesn’t actually say that. As students of scripture, we must be cautious not to invent a doctrine based on scripture that is not clear or is symbolic and can be interpreted differently.
I have a big problem with church teachings that are passed around and become doctrine based on specific interpretations of Biblical passages–even controversial ones. A good example is the teaching that Satan was the worship leader in heaven based on an interpretation of a KJV passage in Ezekiel 28:13 about the king of Tyre. What is ignored is the part where it says in vs 14 that he was anointed as a guardian cherub and also that in other translations, it is different. I can’t tell you how many preachers I have heard say that music falls under Satan’s purview because he was the worship leader in heaven. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that. Also, preachers have stated that Satan is an archangel. I don’t know where they get that except perhaps from the same passage in Ezekiel. There is only one archangel mentioned in the Bible and that is Michael.
The point I am trying to make is that the Holy Spirit, who He is and what He does, is completely misinterpreted by the modern Church, not only in Pentecostal circles but in mainstream churches as well. The mainstream non-charismatics deny the Holy Spirit power, and the charismatics have turned the Holy Spirit into some kind of circus act, calling this “the Anointing.” I have seen what Mr. Grady talks about with preachers “throwing so-called h.s. fireballs” at each other and so forth. It’s frightening to see the disregard for the holiness of God in many churches today.
You’ll hear people talk a good story about God being the same yesterday, today, and forever. Well, yesterday God smote a young man who with good intentions steadied the ark with his hand to keep it from falling off a cart. Yesterday, the Holy Spirit dropped Ananias and Sapphira for trying to deceive Him and the brethren. Yesterday, God destroyed Israel and Judah for worshiping idols and false gods. Why do we think that somehow that God has changed and is no longer concerned about his holiness. It’s a grave mistake – pun intended. Why do we forget that God destroyed false prophets and their entire lineage? People calling themselves prophets should read Jeremiah. Why do we think that it’s okay to only be 80% obedient to God, 80% pure? That is what lukewarmness is and according to Revelation, God will vomit us out.
We need to really beware and start acting like God’s holy people.
When I was water baptised in Jesus name, I spoke in togues; as the Spirit gave me to speak (not of myself). I spoke two words, over and over and over and over. I remembered those words and months later I discovered what they meant; what I had said. I learned what I had said, not from a church member at all but from a language professor who happened to be at the Houston Public Library. I did not tell him the circumstance of when, or who, or where those two words were spoken or where they came from (I gave him no clues). He said that the words which were spoken were; “Behold, Salvation!” “Behold, Salvation!” “Behold, Salvation!” There is nothing left to be said.
Steve that is powerful, and not and recognize that we are told that Tongues is a sign for “Unbelievers” those without “faith.” Here this confirms God as you moved from unbelif to belief and died to self fully, that you received the sign.
Note there are 3 baptisms by the way, water, Spirit, and fire.
By the way… the language that I spoke was Hebrew.
yes FIRE! I equate ‘fire’ with ‘passion’. And look at how absolutely passionate for the Lord a person is when they receive this baptism! The excitement level is grand! “On fire for the Lord” I’ve heard it called. But I look at the baptism another way as well, and that is that ‘fire consumes’. That’s what it does. Our will, our thoughts, are now filled and overwhelmed by God and His Kingdom…thus, we are consumed. Like physical material on fire, the longer the fire consumes the less there is of ‘us’ and the more we should reflect the God who comsumes us!
The Holy Spirit is given to point to Christ, testify of Him and exalt Him. All the gifts are given by The Spirit to be used for this Christ-centered purpose. A lot of the jibberish I hear that most call the ‘gift of tongues’ does not lift up Christ since no one can understand it. This is a false gift of tongues.
The original gift of tongues was a supernatural gifting to speak in a language in order to lift up Christ and proclaim the wonderful deeds of God. In Acts, it overcame the language barrier. It is still needed to overcome language barriers, but that is not how the gift is used these days.
1Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts.
Not all are given the gift of tongues
peace
Paul says in his letter to the Romans, for even though they knew God they did not honor Him as God or gave thanks. Paul through His letters says, “know God.” I believe that admonishment is to have a relationship with all three persons of God. We must have a relationship with Jesus, who shows us the Father, who has sent us the Holy Spirit. It is in the plan of God, that personhood is designed for relationship. So to know God is to have a relationship with all three persons of the God head. He is the one who is the closest to us, He is the one who is in us and with us. It would behoove us to know Him. I am reminded that the only relational sin that cannot be forgiven, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Respectfully submitted,
BB, Of course, your post is completely correct. And, Tongues today like everything else spiritual has a counterfeit, such as in many churches. But I have to say that there are 4 types of speaking in tongues. At initial baptism of the Holy Spirit (for everyone); to speak with others of another language, to prophesy, as a private prayer language to God only.
Is 6 tells us that when Isaiah saw the “Lord high and glorified,” the presence of a Holy God caused several manifestations, including the fact that Isaiah himself, a prophet used by God to speak as the oracle of God, proclaims, “Woe is me. I am undone, for I am a man of unclean lips and I live among a people of unclean lips.”
The manifestations of the presence of a HOLY God will be HOLY manifestations, to be sure, but they will also cause us to fall on our faces before that HOLY God and decry our bereft condition – we are people of unclean lips.”
Speaking in tongues is indeed a manifestation of a HOLY God indwelling carnal flesh, and the tongues becomes the first fruit of evidence that God “has us” because we give him our tongues (lips) and what issues forth is HOLY language. But that is just the initial evidence – a changed life, a life rooted in the genuine, pure, costly and HOLY love of our God is what continues on once the initial evidence has been expressed.
Would that we would be an Isaiah people – lifting up the Lord, allowing HIS glory to fill these temples, repenting of all that keeps us from being the fullest expression of Jesus to the earth in these last days.
Great Post Kathi! Yes, tongues (or anything of God) is awesome; yet but a step on the path of life, eternal life. Our walk does not end at tongues. And everytime His presence draws near to us again, we cannot help but be humbled all over again, just by being in His Presence.
The problem most christians have is they have been told that the one God is really three persons.
So they think God is a person and He is not He is God and is neither male or female.
Jesus was the Christ the word of God made flesh God and His word are one and God is Spirit.
If you have Christ in you then you have all of God because the fullness of God dwells in His Christ or word.
Stop seeing the Spirit of God as something other then God. There is no such thing in the bible as God the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is God the word is God and God the one God is are Father if you have been born again.
Stop believing what men have told you and read your bible for your self. Or better yet just ask your Father that is if the Christ Gods word and son dwells in you. We are saved by His life and that life is in His word. The cross made a way for God to plant the seed and the seed is His word and that word produces a son. Just believe what the bible says God is one.
The article was very clear . Most of the people believe that Holy spirit came to the disciple only in Acts 2 on Pentecost . But it is interesting to read John 20 :22 . Jesus breathed on the disciple and said receive the holy spirit. It is very clear that in Acts -2 it was some thing different , and that is the filling – it is just grabbing the people those who believed. In John it talks about only the presence o the holy spirit with you but in acts it is the Holy spirit who grab you , you are under the total control of the holy spirit . This is what the holy spirit filling in a simple term
bless you
I love getting excited about the Holy Spirit. He has been neglected and abused for far too long.
As far as speaking in tongues as a sing of being baptized in the Spirit, I believe scripture reveals that either no tongues can occur or tongues can occur,
Acts 8:14-17 Tells of Samaritans being saved and baptized in the name of Jesus. Peter and John cruise over, lay hands on the Samaritans to receive the Holy Spirit and…no tongues.
But then…
Acts 19:2-6 displays people of Ephesus who had been baptized into John’s baptism of repentance, and then “they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking wit tongues and prophesying.” So here is an instance of people being baptized in the Spirit and receiving tongues.
I love all of you.
Opps I think I placed this in the wrong space.
Greetings to all, Have we fully considered the words in Col. 2;12 that says our completeness and Baptism is the “operation of God” who has raised Jesus from the dead? Not of works lest any man should boast! Now whether or not we have by faith appropriated this truth is for us to examine ourselves to see if we are truly walking by His Faith, and not just by the measure of faith, given to all men.
We as God’s people need to see the difference between being sealed and being filled and also the difference between “being IN Christ” and Christ being in us. One is the New Creation Man, the other is just hope, which will eventually make the heart sick.,..Selah
The Bible never teaches that there is a Trinity — it’s not in there anywhere. There is no Trinity — that is the doctrine of the Catholic church from way back (from the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.) that most churches have accepted. There is not three people making up God — The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not three, they are ONE…. just like I am a mother, wife and a sister…. there is not three people making up me. I once heard some great preaching on this where God gave the speaker the revelation that if a person does not understand the Godhead then they will never understand how to baptize…. the Bible says to baptize “In the Name of Jesus”…. most, who think there is a Trinity will baptize “In the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost”… which is not Biblical. You find NOWHERE in the Bible where anyone was ever baptized “In the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost”… the apostles ONLY baptized in the name of Jesus.
In Matthew 28 where Jesus commanded people to be baptized in the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost… we know the Bible never contradicts itself… he was referring to:
—The NAME of the Father, is Jesus (John 5:43)
43I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (The “Son” is speaking, we know His name is Jesus and if he’s come in His Father’s Name, it would make the Father’s name “Jesus”..
—The NAME of the Son, is Jesus, and
—The NAME of the Holy Spirit, is also Jesus as seen in John 14:25
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This is why you find the Apostles only baptized in the NAME OF JESUS because they understood Jesus’ command in Matthew 28.
Hence, there is no Trinity.
John 8:24
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
This is a very critical issue.
Hello everyone,
Arun, I would say that you are absolutely correct. I just did a YWAM dts, or disipleship training school, on the speaker who spoke on the Holy Spirit took us to a litteral translation, and showed us that there is a difference between Holy Spirit, and The Holy Spirit.
In John 20:22, Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit into them, and they are regenerated. Before that they simply walked with the Holy Spirit, as scripture says
“right now the Holy spirit is with you, but a time will come when the Holy Spirit will dwell in you.”
But what do we see in Acts then?
Right before Jesus asended into heaven he said “Stay in Jeruslem intil you are CLOTHED IN POWER FROM ON HIGH”
So the walked with the Hloy Spirit when they walked with Jesus (Because the Holy Spirit dwelled in Jesus)
Then in John 20:22 they were regenerated by the Holy spirit, or the Holy Spirit entered them, and regenerated them,. which by the way is far different than “asking Jesus into your heart” which of course is a phisical imposibility)
Then in Acts 2, they received Holy Spirit from the Holy Spirit. They received POWER FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE KINGDOM. (also called babism oth the spirit, or filling with the Holy Spirit, due to confusing bible translations.)
Hope this helps, Kaison
A great post in a time of great need! Well done Lee and well done Andrew! As I was reading through these posts I was well satisfied with a lot of the response. One response in particular caught my eye and I saw understanding forming. Here I have to commend Arun for his statement concerning the incident in John 20. Christ breathed on His disciples. This act is the infilling of the Holy Spirit who is God and no other. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is an endowment of power; revealing the gifts as given by the Holy Spirit as a believer needs it. I adhere to Andrews viewpoint of tongues being the sign of being baptised with the Holy Ghost. By Gods grace I speak in seven different languages. Why? I dont know as long as it glorifies Him.
A second thought is this: We are to be the Temple of the Holy Ghost right? This takes me to the point regarding demons…Looking at the Temple of old we had the Outer, Inner courts, the Holy place and the Holy of Holies. Where did God dwell? In the Holy of Holies. My belief is that the Holy Spirit so too dwells there in us. The outer court was reserved for women, men and foreigners. These foreigners, according to my humble opinion, could well be demons trying to keep a foothold or trying to gain one. A wonderful preacher from Zambia (4 people raised from the dead) once said the following: Its not a question if can a Christian have a demon; its a question of Can a demon have a Christian? A thought to ponder…Blessings to all
Hi,
Reguarding “speaking in tongues” or as I prefer to call it
“Holy Spirit language”, I see here , and have heard through the years believers saying that “Holy Spirit language” as described in
I Corinthians 12:is a gift, yet Paul clearly said that it is
a “MANIFESTATION of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:7 )
Since believers are to deny themselves and follow Him, they are
to be manifestors of the Holy Spirit who is the Gift.
Manifesting His wisdom, knowledge, discernment, speech,
powers, healings, etc., instead of their own.
If you limit God by calling these gifts rather than manifestations
you limit your own experience with Him also, to be built up in ALL
things in Him.
Many of you are discussing if you need a sign to prove that you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit! Who do you have to prove it to? Do you have to wear a big white cowboy hat and wear a big chrome cross around your neck to prove you are saved!
I know older Christians that do not pray in tongues but radiate depths of love, do your love all as the scriptures command?
Yes, I have been praying in tongues for 35 years, but I don’t advertise it and I don’t use it as an idol!
Much of what has been said here deals not with the Holy Spirit, but with the gift of tongues.
The gift of tongues is good and not divisive, but the statement by men that “tongues is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit”, is divisive. It tells all those who do not speak in tongues that they are not Christians, and have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit, as John the Baptist promised Jesus would do.
The Spirit did not give spiritual gifts for us to brag about, and use for our own self gratification, but for the common good of the body. He gave the gifts to edify, bring to maturity, and to unify the church; He never intended the gifts to be used to divide the church.
When this happens, it grieves the Holy Spirit, and the person causing the Holy Spirit to be grieved cannot be walking in the Spirit.
No where in scripture does it say that the evidence of being baptized with the Spirit (and fire) is to speak in tongues. When you insist that it does, you simply divide the church (which pleases Satan) and grieve the Holy Spirit of God.
If you want a passage of scripture that describes (the evidence) a person filled with the Holy Spirit, read Romans 8:13-14. It says, (NIV)
13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
A person who is walking in (under the control of) the Spirit will be holy, even as God is holy, because the Spirit will be putting to death the misdeeds of the body (Galatans 5:19-21), and the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) will be manifested in his or her life.
This is the biblical evidence that we should proclaim. Jesus lives His Holy Life in us, as the Holy Spirit puts to death the misdeeds of the body. My victory is not in my gift, but in the God who gave the gift.
The proof of my being a Christian is not words that I say, but a pure and holy life lived by Jesus, in my body.
Let’s consider it the way it is really said in Mat. 28:19 …Baptizing them in the Nature/character of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. and the means for doing this is the “water of the word” through the teaching ministries. Holy Spirit equals Holy attitude. When we recieve a Holy attttude we will see with new eyes and speak with new tounges, Father is our source of all to be “manifested” as the Son in the flesh which is the Christ. Problem with most Christians is that they do not see that we are to be as HE/Jesus IS in this flesh of ours, and that we too should be the Christ in the earth. As long as we think it robbery to be One with the Father we can speak in tounges all we want but we need interpetation like the one brother shared “behold the Son” and to further behold yourself as the Son. Now we are the Son’s of God! Truly we need anointed (God manifested in the flesh/Christ teacher’s) teacher’s to help us to see the reason Jesus came into this world was to show us the Father and to know that we too can be One with Him. The prayer of Jesus will not go unanswered, “Father make them One as we are One”. We have so many telling us what they think about a scripture and it’s meaning and these are soulish/women preachers that have not the Holy attitude of the Christ. Believe me we have “woman” peacher’s in a whole lot of men’s bodies. Can you hear what the Spirit is saying? The time is NOW for the Christ to arise in His people and speak as the oracles of the Father, even as Jesus spoke manifesting the Father, therefore was called the Christ.
Christ is Father manifested in the Flesh…Are you the Christ?
Hi Cassie,
Certainly God is stronger than any demons or the devil. The key is having repented, being baptized and making sure that the enemy has no legal right to stay inside of you.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD’S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Some of us are blind to the sin in our hearts. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal and convict us of our sins.
Psalms 4:2 O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah. 4:3 But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him. Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still.
David followed after God but he sinned… this is what he said after he repented ….
Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: 19 But verily God hath heard me; he hath attended to the voice of my prayer.
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
I could go on and give you more examples of people who believed in God and turned away from Him… like the Israelites, Solomon, etc. They paid the consequences for what they did.
Good news is that we can get back to having a right relationship with God and receive the baptism of water, fire and Holy Spirit and receive the gifts He wants us to have. I Corinthians 12, 13, 14; Ephesians 4; Romans 12
Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us…
Pat Bell Smith,
I want to be as kind and gentle as possible when saying this..But you just displayed an example of eisegesis. It’s where you read into the text your ideas, and then take out what you want the text to say instead of reading it as it was really meant to to be read. Exegesis on the other hand is where you read the scriptures for what it really meant to say and dig out the meaning. The term “trinity” is no where in scripture, but neither is “incarnation.” These are both such clearly taught doctrines within the Word of God. I challenge you to approach the word of God without your presuppositions. God cannot be fully comprehended, it would be foolish to think so, especially concerning His essence. I do not want to get into a debate because that will lead no where whatsoever. But we must recognize the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as fully God, and yet three distinct persons. One “what”, three “whos.” Love and blessings. I will not post again concerning the topic for the sake maintaining and atmosphere of love and no anger.
Hi Cassie,
Certainly God is stronger than any demons or the devil. The key is having repented, being baptized and making sure that the enemy has no legal right to stay inside of you.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD’S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Some of us are blind to the sin in our hearts. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal and convict us of our sins.
Psalms 4:2 O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah. 4:3 But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him. Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still.
David followed after God but he sinned… this is what he said after he repented ….
Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: 19 But verily God hath heard me; he hath attended to the voice of my prayer.
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
I could go on and give you more examples of people who believed in God and turned away from Him… like the Israelites, Solomon, etc. They paid the consequences for what they did.
Good news is that we can get back to having a right relationship with God and receive the baptism of water, fire and Holy Spirit and receive the gifts He wants us to have. I Corinthians 12, 13, 14; Ephesians 4; Romans 12
Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us……
Remember that the gifts will pass away one day and that the greatest gift we can give is LOVE.
2. Let’s consider it the way it is really said in Mat. 28:19 …Baptizing them in the Nature/character of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. and the means for doing this is the “water of the word” through the teaching ministries. Holy Spirit equals Holy attitude. When we receive a Holy attitude we will see with new eyes and speak with new tongues, Father is our source of all to be “manifested” as the Son in the flesh which is the Christ. Problem with most Christians is that they do not see that we are to be as HE/Jesus IS in this flesh of ours, and that we too should be the Christ in the earth. As long as we think it robbery to be One with the Father we can speak in tongues all we want but we need interpretation like the one brother shared “behold the Son” and to further behold yourself as the Son. Now we are the Son’s of God! Truly we need anointed (God manifested in the flesh/Christ teacher’s) teacher’s to help us to see the reason Jesus came into this world was to show us the Father and to know that we too can be One with Him. The prayer of Jesus will not go unanswered, “Father make them One as we are One”. We have so many telling us what they think about a scripture and it’s meaning and these are soulish/women preachers that have not the Holy attitude of the Christ. Believe me we have “woman” preacher’s in a whole lot of men’s bodies. Can you hear what the Spirit is saying? The time is NOW for the Christ to arise in His people and speak as the oracles of the Father; even as Jesus spoke manifesting the Father therefore was called the Christ.
Christ is Father manifested in the Flesh…Are you the Christ?
This is the problem with tongues. If someone doesn’t “speak in tongues” then he/she hasn’t been filled with the Spirit. That is what leads to spiritual elitism and pride. A believer can be full of the Spirit WITHOUT speaking in tongues. Look down thru history. Luther and Calvin didn’t speak in tongues. Wesley and Whitelfield didn’t speak in tongues. Wonderful great men of God and great saints of God have no testimony of speaking in tongues and you want to tell me they aren’t filled? Henry Blackaby is a great man of GOD, maybe one of the greatest alive today along with John Stott and you tell me these men aren’t full of the Spirit or baptized in the Spirit???
Please read John R.W. Stott’s, “Baptism and Fullness”. It’s a little book but explains what the baptism of the Spirit is. Excellent. God bless you all. I love you in Christ.
I am a house wife and no theologian and my comment on this vital subject after reading about a fourth of the good comments at this posting is this:
Joel talks of the signs that will follow of “stammering lips” etc… when the HS comes and it is a sign they all saw and understood to be “a sign” as they did not understand at Acts 2 when the HS or Comforter, Teacher, Guide first came to those in prayer for the 10 ish days after Christ ascended.
So it is clear they heard something and saw the fruit of the infilling. So why is it so hard to grasp? I do not know.
But the other thing is the mixing up of the gift of tongues and the evidence of tongues. They are two different tongues. One is the evidence of being filled / anointed with the HS and the other is a Gift and only 1 out of 9 Gifts given to those who have the evidence. But they are continually mixed up to be as one. But they are not and never will be one as they are two different things. Luke told of the evidence in Acts & Paul taught on the Gifts clearly in 1 Corinthians.
My other issue is this:
Why do we continue to dissect One God into 3 pieces? It is plainly said in both old and new testaments that He is One. Trinity, trinitarian, etc…is not in the Bible but a made up word by church fathers.
Isn’t it easier to just say the Lord puts on different hats so to speak. He is One God and even the Demons know it and tremble at this. He is the same God of all dispensations of OT, Gospels, NT and Church Age. He is Spirit Pneuma wind as one stated and He is Holy or set apart– as are we if in Christ.
I am a daughter, wife, mother, grandmother, cousin, aunt etc…they are the various “hats” of AlamoAA I have one name but many parts to play in life. God is the same to me. He is One and He has many hats so to speak and it makes it so much easier and He is so much BIGGER when you do not dissect Him into 3 parts. He is much more than that and it really simplifies life. Consider it.
Yes, I am well aware of how the Trinity was formulated in the Church Councils starting in 325 AD. It took several hundred yrs to perfect the doctrine. Understand I am not an ONENESS person so please do not label me as such. I f you could see me you would see I wear make up, pants and cut my hair but I look like a girl. I simply go by the Bible and not additions in the Bible by possibly well meaning Church Fathers [or Church denominations made up by man]. They were all forming the Catholic Church and I am not one so what does any of their deductions have to do with me as a Bible Believing Follower of Christ? NONE whatsoever!
So I have left all of them behind me including the first 3 that all the churches seem to adhere to so tightly. Let’s grow and put all of them behind us and not be intimidated by them as not being a Christian or worse yet a Cult. I say “Get Behind Me Satan” I will follow the Word of God and no man made rules.
It sure has simplified my life since looking at the various “hats” of God. Again not being a theologian I may be missing something but I say put all Catholic dogma & church by-laws etc…. behind us and lets move on and follow Christ and what He did and do it the way the Apostles did in Acts.
The Apostles were not stupid nor were they rebellious. Let’s follow their example as members of the body of Christ. So lets care for the poor and needy and widows and orphans and do unto others etc….Love one another and pick up our heavy burdens and follow Him as we help bear others burdens as well. But lets stop limiting God and look at Him as what He says. ONE
OK I got it off my chest I have stepped down from my soap box and have supper to make.
God bless you all, AlamoAA
Amen AlamoAA…sounds like you have a “Kiss operation” to me…Keep it simple stupid! I all seriousness I heard a preacher the other day trying to explain the trinity and and it was so far from simple that it was almost funny.
Father makes us One…Please hurry.
Peace & Love to all those who “love His appearing”
Deasr Harvestisripe,
I would clarify one thing that you said and that was regarding tongues and interpretation equalling prophecy.
Prophecy is the Spirit of God speaking through man to man, tongues with accompaning interpretation is The Spirit of God speaking through man to God. The interpretation of a tongue should be prayer, praise or worship to the Father. If it is not that then what happened was a prophecy was given after the tongue and the tongue went without interpretation. Paul said, (regarding tongues0 you give thanks well but how can I add my Amen if I do not know what you are saying? The giving of thanks is the clue to the meaning.
Blessings,
Tony Sr.
All I can encourage people to do if they have not spoken in tongues is “seek God for this gift”. It represent the holy utterance of God taking over your lips and therefore I believe has real significance. Don’t settle for less. Seek the Lord.
Back to the article: I thank God that Mr. Grady and others are reminding us all to maintain a proper respect and reverence for the Lord God Almighty.
Back to the speaking in tongues issue: Sherry made a good comment – “I have met a lot of very (what I saw) Godly people who didn’t speak in tongues. I have met a lot of people that compromise their Christian walk claim to speak in tongues.”
Sadly, that is true, and I’ve met the same, and cried out to God about it. Several things came to light:
- Some of the tongues-speakers were probably never really born again, and they actually have counterfeit tongues from spirits that are not of God. Some are very spiritual but have the New Age spirituality that has flooded much of the charismatic movement, along with a false assurance of salvation.
- Others have fake tongues from repeating syllables after somebody, or perhaps by just opening their mouths and babbling.
- For those of us who are born again and do speak in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives us utterance, there is still a great need (as Brother Ken mentioned) to keep growing in the Lord.
- For those many born-again Christians who have a deep, sincere walk with the Lord yet don’t speak in tongues, perhaps they don’t see the need for a “baptism of the Holy Spirit” or a need to speak in tongues. Or if they want to, maybe there are spritual, mental, or emotional blocks. The Lord might remove the blocks in time, but it may take a lot of perseverance, as it did in my case.
By the way, Mr. Strom’s book “The Secrets of the Early Church” explains about water baptism, salvation, and baptism in the Holy Spirit, with lots of accompanying scriptures.
God bless you all, and let’s continue to glorify Him, not compromising our walk with Him.
Regarding the immature (I’d like to say idiots but I guess that’s uncharitable) ministers throwing the ‘blob’ of ‘holy spirit’ back and forth – people confuse annointings and empowerments of the Holy Spirit with the personhood of the Holy Spirit Himself. The real wisdom is that there is a LOT of spiritual things out there that ALL OF US would be better off not touching unless we have the understanding of discernment to tell if they are truly of G_D or an angel of false light. This would have been helpful with the So Called ‘Lakeland’ revival. And kept a lot of people from being disalusioned when it all fell apart. Truthfully anyone can have a revival according to Jeremiah if they seek God with all their heart. We live in troublesome times – be wise and humble not foolish and proud.
Regarding the immature (I’d like to say idiots but I guess that’s uncharitable) ministers throwing the ‘blob’ of ‘holy spirit’ back and forth – people confuse annointings and empowerments of the Holy Spirit with the personhood of the Holy Spirit Himself. The real wisdom is that there is a LOT of spiritual things out there that ALL OF US would be better off not touching unless we have the understanding of discernment to tell if they are truly of God or an angel of false light.
Appreciate mosts of the posts and the respect given in the varied discussion. I have to oft seen folks get enflamed easily over these.
Tongues has become central due to the propigation of it as being the “sign of Being filled.” There is a clear theology. Please, Andrew or anyone else can you show further your view on that from scripture and address things such as variety of gifts, services, and operation. We all pose a real danger of interpreting scripture by own experience. Andrew, clearly having had the experience of being indwelt and seeing the manifestation of tongues displayed in self and other. We often know what God has done in our life and then want to frame that is applicable to all.
Andrew, I have many times ask God that if he wanted to give me a gift of tongues that I would receive. God has not chosen ever to give me that gift. He has given me gifts more to how he created me. Gifts of discernment of being able to understand things at the heart and sense things that I could not know otherwise.
There are times as well where I have spoken “prophecy” directly related to building up some around me. There are times of confronting a view where I know that what I “typed” at that point were words directly what God wanted me to say.
If you take a good sound look at scripture, the “Sign” of being filled comes down to the “fruit.” It is the sign of abiding in Christ. It is the sign of drawing life from God. Where there is fruit, there is God’s life. Passage after passage of scripture indicates this. The starting point is really learning more what it means to worship in Spirit and Truth. Let me encourage folks to read this http://peacebringer7.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/worship-in-spirit-and-truth-how-do-we/
One other thought, there is always a problem when we think we “understand God” and have full grasp of Theology. I find when I think I understand God in one way, in scripture he starts showing me things from the completely different angle than what I was holding on to. We can be so sure of our selves, and while the scripture directs us to “test all things” we so often fail to test our own understanding, often preferring to argue and debate over seeking to examine and understand with full awareness of “not having it all right.”
Just some thoughts to chew on given the course of the discussion.
I always believed that the ‘Baptism of the Holy Spirit’ was a gift from God available to all believers who have been born again, supernaturally, and given new life. When you pray and ask for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, one of the outward manifestations of that baptism is that you develop a prayer language that is your own personal language strictly between you and the Lord. The main reason for that language is that after praying in your natutal language, you eventually run out of things to pray for, besides the fact that even Jesus said ‘we don’t know how to pray as we should.’ But when you have your own prayer language, you’re able to pray a direct line to the Lord, unaware of what you are praying, but you can rest assured you are praying the will of God. Plus, when you pray in your natural language, the enemy can actually know your intentions and literally steal your prayers or know how to interfere in your ministry or your personal ambitions and ’cause you much strife or destruction even. But in your personal prayer language, neither you nor the devil knows what you are praying, but only God knows, not to mention the fact that it is very edifying to your spirit man and your walk with him when you pray accordingly. That is just ONE of the gifts that come with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but a very important one as far as communicating with your Father.
I think we should remember that the day of Penecost was the first time God was able to indwell man since the garden.
This was promised to man in the O.T. and now was fulfilled! What a wonderful happening.
In the O.T. God forgave sin that was repented of from the heart, but this was not complete because it still left man to continue in sin-he had no power over it. How can a Holy God live with man if He can’t keep him holy-free fom sin? Will God indwell a garabage heap of sin? NO NO he will not! In the O.T.man keep falling in sin and repentening-sinning and repenting-sinning and repenting (along with animal sacrifices and offerings) (Opps does this sound like many “Christians” today- (minus the animal sacrifices)maybe they are living an Old Testament life with New testament words)
But in the New Testement He created a way to indwell man. He sent His Son as a perfect lasting sacrifice for sin. Now when man repents from his heart of all sin and self rule and this is accepted by the living God He sends His Son through the Holy Spirit to abide in our hearts! Oh what a fellowship-the love of God shed abroad in our hearts-we are new creatures!
If the Holy Spirit is truly given to you by the living God the evidence is a holy life lived-sin will not have dominion over you-you are free to love Him and others. And by keeping this divine fellowship we live a life of Holy liberty, in perfect rest and peace, with no condemnation.
No other religion on the face of the Earth can boast of this magnificient promise-being indwelt by God Himself!
So perhaps speaking in tongues should not be our major focus but but living a Holy life should be.
Jeri Woods
253-988-0012
Andrew
In your earlier post, you said,
“I still hold to the classic Pentecostal position myself – that “tongues” should be an initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit – like we see in Acts.”
1- While tongues was given at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-6), what was given was a known tongue that was used to share the good news with foreigners who were in Jerusalem. It was not the unknown tongue that today is described as the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Comment?
2- After reading your post, I sat down and read the book of Acts. I counted 28 instances of people being born again, but only 3 of them stated that the believers spoke in tongues. They were:
a- the disciples at Pentecost Acts 2:1-6
b- Cornelius and friends Acts 10:44-46
c- Men of Ephesus Acts 19;6-7
What we actually see in the book of Acts is that 25 of the 28 instances do not record speaking in tongues. This is the norm in the book of Acts, and should we not be cautious to declare the exception to the rule (tongues) to be the initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit?
Comment?
3- If Pentecost were the example of the norm of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, would we not have to:
a- hear the sound of the blowing of a violent wind?
b- see what seemed to be tongues of fire?
c- have each person speak in a known tongue?
Comment?
Kathy – thank you for your witness. I have written and spoken with a number of people in leadership, teaching and shepherding roles regarding this issue that is much darker and more demonic than most seem to realise, and the enemy is truly picking off the weak. Derek Prince is among the notable few who did see what is happening and wrote about this very thing.
Sadly no one has responded.
blessings,
Gary
The tounges at pencost was not men speaking in known languages. They were speaking in the thing we call tounges or some call gibberish and they were hearing it in there known lanuage. I have experineced this and know it to be a fact. The experince of speaking in tounges is for all believers it is not special and should be normal for those who are truly filled with the Spirit of God. It is not something you should have to ask for it should just be as normal as breathing air.In fact it does not matter how many times Jesus died on how many crosses if He the Christ does not fill you then you are not even saved.The cross made it possible for God to enter the true temple who we are if so be that He the Christ of God dwell in you. I do not care how nice you may seem if Gods Spirit does not dwell in you then you are not His.
Father make us one.
Teach us the mysteries of Your Spirit in whatever language you choose, and help those who disagree to “forbid not speaking in tongues”, but may Paul’s desire for them be fulfilled, that “I want you all to speak in tongues” and so begin a process of sanctification that can come about in no other way but in You praying through them.
Amen.
In reponse to Gary who posted on 4/30…I am so encouraged by what you wrote! All the denominations (which are divisions) that are so prevalent and accepted in Christianity is disheartening to me. The Lord has put a burden on my heart to pray for the Body of Christ, not a particular church organization or denomination or even local body but THE CHURCH. That we would no longer consider our own preferences but all look to God in faith , breaking down the walls we’ve built and go forth in this world displaying love for one another which would ultimately display God’s almighty power and love for His children. Today the churches have been inundated with with worldly ideas and passions. They are appealing to the flesh instead of the the Spirit of God.
Please do not be offended by what I am saying. The Corinthians were saved people, had many gifts of the Holy Spirit, YET PAUL tells them they are CARNAL.
The gifts are not a”big deal” as so many of the Charismatic and Pentecostal Churches has tried to make them. If we return to the original Holiness Movements (please, not the excessive ones) we see that what they considered the Bpatism of the Holy Spirit was NOT so much gifts, BUT A CLEAN HEART, an actual removal of the Carnal Nature, the TRUE Circumcision of the Heart that the Bible speaks of and is promise in Col 2:11.
Again, I am not trying to be disruptive or cause difficulties. but we must speak and believe in absolute agreement with ALL of the scriptures not just those that we like or that support what we say is correct.
If we look at all of the passages that speak of the BAPTISM of the Holy SPIRIT, we must come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ Himself cleanses and removes the carnal nature that we were born with and replaces it with His own Godly nature.
What is commonly called the Baptism today, could easily be true salvation!
I do not say this is the fact as God sees it, but it is where He has led me. I suggest it would be good for all of us to go to Him and ask HIM what HE says, for the modern Church does NOT look like that of the Bible and there is something definitely deficient about it.
This easily accomidates all that I am aware of in the problems and scriptural truths the Lord present in the BIble.
May we all be brought into HIS ways where HE is the TRUE LORD and KING of all we think, say, do, and even feel!
a bondslave in Christ Jesus
Unfortunately I feel that in most congregations around the world, they could care less if the Holy Spirit shows up or not. That seems harsh I know, but I personally witnessed it for many many years. If the HS came into the meeting, many are dosing off or slumbering and would miss Him. Since it does not fit into the predetermined schedule of the pastor and what that denomination has planned for the meeting, many would wonder what is happening and would not recognize His presence was even there.
It seems most of the leadership of these congregations are doing their own thing…….not being led by the Holy Spirit. They meet, sing a specific number of songs, make the announcements, collect the tithe and then a 30 minute sermon is presented to those present. It can only be a certain length because everyone has to leave by the prescribed time, either to allow for the next meeting of the mega church groups, or to get to the football game that starts at 1:00 pm or to hit the cafeteria. Do I sound cynical…..I wonder how our Abba Father feels. We tip our hat to Him for one hour and off to our own lives we go. How wonderful and absolutely delirious it would be if we as His people could atttend a gathering/congregation and wait upon His Holy Spirit to show up and lead us for that day’s message. What would He impart to us? What songs would He have us to sing to Him? What “word” or “meat” would He give us through the pastor or speaker? Why would we even want to leave…….as long as He was there among us???? I would stay there all day as long if He was there. You could not pry me away. Twelve noon could come and go, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, come and go…..we would just bask in His Holy Presence. Wouldn’t that be glorious? But alas, the Sunday meetings of this day are nothing like that!
Please notice that I have not once used the word church above. That is because I and You “are the Church”. Church is not a building or a denomination. It is God’s People, a living body, a living organism. We are each a part of it. When someone asks me where I go to church I tell them “I AM THE CHURCH AND SO ARE YOU”. Question: What denomination does God’s word put me in? Answer…..none of them. They are all man made and run by mere men. And since God has not built this thing called the modern day group meeting on Sunday, my guess is it will be dealt with harshly…..it will come tumbling down. The people of God are not being fed there….how could they be. And make no mistake about it, without His presence, there is no power, no truth and no LIFE. It is a dead thing and it stinks in His nostrils.
Would that I were filled with His Holy Spirit!!! Who is not an “it”. Am in agreement with Psalm91 who wrote: “And make no mistake about it, without His presence, there is no power, no truth and no LIFE. It is a dead thing and it stinks in His nostrils.”
The gift of the Holy Spirit, receiving the Holy Spirit, being filled with the Spirit, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are all the same according to scripture. Also according to scripture there will be initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, i.e. speaking in other languages, prophesying, and magnifying God, these were all initial evidences that the believer’s received to know that they had received this promise of the Father that Jesus told His apostles in the book of John and again in Acts before His ascension. There will also be evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit after reception.
Acts 2:17-18 (NKJV) ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,Your young men shall see visions,Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants, I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
According to scripture we must be born of water AND Spirit, you can’t have one without the other. When we look at the biblical pattern of conversion we see that Jesus sent His apostles to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God and they told those who believed their message to repent, be baptized in water in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:37-39 (NKJV)
“Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
All the ministers of the gospel in the first century preached the same message and every believer received the gift or baptism of the Holy Spirit. This baptism is NOT a separate act of conversion but a part OF conversion!
The book of Acts only speaks of people being “filled” or
‘baptized’ with the Holy Spirit five times that I am aware of. 3 of them directly say that “tongues” resulted, plus Paul (4th) says later that he speaks in tongues (1 Cor 12 – 14) – plus in Acts 8 (5th) Simon clearly sees some “sign” immediately given to people – though we are not told what it is.
My view is fairly simple – “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:4). The sign of supernatural “utterance” is important, in my view. But of course, the “Fruit” are the main thing!
God bless,
Andrew Strom.
How is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit related to, or is it the same thing as the ‘complete sanctification’ concept taught by John Wesley? Somehow it seems different (big lack of holiness often found within “spirit filled” Christians) and yet I know these terms are used interchangably sometimes. Any thoughts??
Blessings!
Praise God for the remarks and good word. One thing that is apparent wherever I go on the net, in the professing Christian circles, is that there is no proper teaching of the word of God. A lot of the remarks and teachings are illogical and without foundation in the word of God and even in common sense grammatical English in simple interpretation. Also confusing the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, of the command of Christ for all believers that all will speak in tongues, if received in faith clean of sin, as part of the Corinthian gifts of the Spirit as He wills. Jesus says “The Spirit quickens. My words are spirit and they are life. The flesh profits nothing” JN6.63. The word of God isn’t legalistic but change of heart and mind thus producing a changed life in Christ by faith in God’s word.
Its interesting to see also that the trinity is executed in Mathew 3.16,17 with The Son, The Holy Spirit, and the Father speaking from heaven. All three in one place.
Accept the word of God for out of the mouth of two or three witnesses let the matter be established. All speak in tongues if Baptized in the Holy Ghost. Born again believers received a “work of the Holy Spirit” but not He himself. “But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; ” (Titus 3:4-6)
And if Christ be in you
{For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (2 Corinthians 7:10)},
the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10)
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (1 John 3:2-6)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (1 Peter 1:15-16)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5)
Phew!!..and I thought Christianity was simple to understand..sure it is not easy to live a Christian life..but am concerned most posts in this esteem column needs a theological decree or rocket science to untangle.
All I want to know is why we still have linguistic and vernacular interpreters when preaching overseas etc…did the disciples spoke other land languages during the first “speaking in tongues “experience in Jerusalem?..seems many of us claim angelic ligo even our charamatic Roman Catholics speak in toungue directed to Maria..eh..which ‘speaking in tongues are we talking about here?? I do not doubt the empowerment of the Lord the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person in the Trinity.
The process of honestly trying to determine what the weight of Scripture says on a given subject and therefore what we ought to “believe” has and always will have the potential to result in disagreement between and among believers.
The truth is that our beliefs have all been enfluenced by the views of others, whomever they may have been. Sincere believers sincerely disagree at times – thankfully not usually concerning such foundational beliefs as how one is assured of salvation. However, beyond this, disagreements abound about a great many other aspects of Scripture. This is regretable to say the least but none of us, in and of ourselves, can do much to prevent this since we all have to make up our own minds on these matters.
Paul has some instructive advice in Philippians 3:12-16 regard areas in which believers may find they disagree: “Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,let us be of the same mind.” [NKJV]
If you and I could focus on walking in the truth we already know and keeping our hearts open to continuing to be taught by the Spirit how to become more like Him I wonder how many less disagreements would result in division – my sense is a whole lot!
Thanks for sharing your beliefs Lee, most of which I happen to share!
The thing that happened on the day of pentecost was not everone speaking in diffrent languages. They were hearing it in there own languages. I tried to share with you all i was a witness to this very thing. I was at a meeting and there was a woman speaking in other tounges and all who were at the meeting and myself heard the message in our ears in english. She was not speaking in english she was speaking in other tounges we heard it in our ears in english. I am sure if there would have been someone who was a diffrent language they would have heard it in there language. We act as if the things that happened in the book of acts were only for a few i have always thought they were just normal stuff for those in the kingdom of God.
I have read all the previous comments and there are a lot of beliefs/rhetoric that have been acquired from popular books; TV preachers; traditions; and the worldly church culture. Why? Because the foundations are flawed…and when your foundation is flawed, the structure that is built on that foundation is VERY flawed. As any building framer will tell you, if your foundational support is not PLUMB AND SQUARE even a small amount….that small amount…let’s say an inch….MULTIPLIES as you build upward into a much larger error/flaw. Your structure is weak until the flaw is corrected in the foundation and corrected all the way up the building. A little leaven….a speck….leavens the whole loaf.
What does scripture teach you and me? Should be our first question we ask. Not what does this “teacher” and that “preacher” and this “author” SAY WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES. Man’s teachings/traditions that have been handed down and spread worldwide I John 2:27
We need to be like Bereans and tear yourselves away from the TV and spend some time in praying over an “in depth” study of the scriptures. It is so easy today to find the definitions of the “original” languages of our scriptures by the internet research tools available. The LANGUAGES THAT GOD SPOKE TO HIS PEOPLE WERE NOT ENGLISH. Compare what EVERY person teaches with the “original” language of scriptures. Both Strong’s and the Greek Lexicon even give you the definition of the word pertaining to that particular scripture….because the very same word may have a different definition in some other verse!! Or the different verb tenses make a huge difference in the meaning of the verse. Psalm 12:6-7 The Lord stated He will preserve His words from generation to generation……but He also stated BEWARE of many things that can come in and corrupt the TEACHING OF HIS WORD; to deceive; lie; steal, and destroy. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light….and he counterfeits the things of the Kingdom of God. The one thing He cannot counterfeit…..Christ being formed in us!!! Holiness under ALL circumstances, situations, and in the face of man’s flesh cannot be counterfeited.
What should our foundation consist of? Of course, we can all agree with the CORNERSTONE…Jesus Christ….as long as you have the Jesus Christ of the Scriptures! But what are the other stones of our foundation that God speaks of? God begins with the beginning…..In Genesis.
(Stone #1) God…..singular…ONE GOD, The ONE GOD is the Creator of ALL things
(Stone #2) In Genesis…This ONE GOD has a Spirit….the “the Spirit of God” was moving over the surface of the waters
(Stone #3) This ONE GOD calls Himself PLURAL….Let US make man in OUR image.
(Stone #4) God created man in His own image
(Stone #5) God desires to partner with man in His creation Gen 1:26.
(Stone #6) God reveals Himself as provider Gen1:29,30; Genesis 2:18-25.
(Stone #7) Genesis 2 He calls Himself eternal…. LORD God…”I ever shall be the same that I am today”
So far God has established Himself as Creator; One true God; Spirit; eternal; never changing; YET PLURAL….
GOD PROGRESSIVELY REVEALS HIS PERSONS AND HIS CHARACTER FROM GENESIS THROUGH REVELATION.
(Stone #8) Genesis 2 reveals Himself as Lawmaker
(Stone #9) Genesis 3 God reveals His desire to FELLOWSHIP WITH MAN Gen 3:8-9.
(Stone #10) In Genesis 3, God reveals the consequences of breaking His Law…….from now on all creation is under this curse and men are born under this curse and separated in FELLOWSHIP FROM GOD.
BUT WAIT….God already knew that would happen and is now revealing His plan of REDEMPTION and RESTORATION! Under God’s questioning, both Adam and Eve confessed their sins and GOD HIMSELF PREPARED A BLOOD SACRIFICE FOR THEIR SINS…..Genesis 3:21 and clothed them with the skins of the sacrificed animal, not only for a rememberance, but in looking forward to the SACRIFICIAL LAMB TO COME….CHRIST JESUS….Genesis 3:15, which brings us back to the cornerstone.
THIS MUST BE OUR FOUNDATION….OR WE ARE LOST. The scriptures become unclear and are “up for discussion” when our foundation is not plumb and square. Matt 25:34; Luke 6:48-49; ICor 3:10.
Ephesians 2:20;Acts 26:22; 28:23
God revealed THIS SAME Plan of Redemption and Restoration; His SAME Nature; and progressively His Persons found in Genesis. Revealed through His Prophets; His law; His Tabernacle; His Temple; and FINALLY AND COMPLETELY through His Only Begotten Son. Of whom we are to become PARTAKERS OF HIS NATURE, revealing His Nature; His Persons; His Plan, just like Christ.
What has this to do with “tongues” you say? Plenty!!! I will tie this together in another comment to come.
Lisa Small – bless you and thank you.
I believe that at this time the Father – our Father – is gathering together the bride He has chosen for His Son. He is calling us out of denominational and doctrinal constraints and perfecting the faith He has called us to so He can present us as a “pure strong and spotless bride” made perfect and prepared for the wedding that is to come.
God’s gift to us is His own son, suffered, cursed, crucified and resurrected to victory, power and glory, Amen. And God’s gift to HIs only Son? – we are that gift!
Of course our enemy is at work creating many counterfeits in order to lead many astray, or even just to distract us from the prize – which is the return of the Lord.
Scripture clearly teaches the when the Lord Jesus returns, and sets foot again in Jerusalem, satan is chained and imprisoned for 1000 years and he really does not want to go to prison so he is trying to take our eyes off the prize.
in His Love,
Gary
You know what the bible is a wonderful book and many here seem to know what it says. I thought the goal of all that God has done through Christ the true word of God was to simply know Him. It seems to me from what i have been reading there are many in love with things written about God that others wrote who went before us but few are having the own relationship Him themselves. I do not know the scriptures as the word of God. Gods word is alive and should be living in us Gods word was always coming to the prophets of old do you think they were reading a book when this happened? The things that happened in the book of acts are not the end they are only the start of all that are Father desires to do He is only waiting for those who will get out of the boat and dare to walk on the water.Oh well i am not trying to spoil your party i guess i dont get out much that is all changing as i am about my Father business. I pray i am not the only one.
Where in scripture did God ever say He was One God in three persons? Where is the word ‘trinity’ found in scripture?
I have enjoyed reading all of the posts. Alot of good conversation and sharing. Someone had asked where is the scripture that references there being “a sign” of the believer who has been “baptized”. It is Mark 16:17
The Holyspirit is not an “IT” according to Lee Grady but God is a “ONE WHAT”???
Thats a Joke!
The trinity is Unbiblical Roman greco thinking.
It take great corage and to read the word a fresh without a trinitarian presuppositon. You will be suprised with what you can see.
God is One, not three and he is definatley not a “ONE WHAT” as Lee Grady would try and have us believe.
Pat
Mark 16:17 lists not just one sign, but five. Why would anyone pick out only tongues to be the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
Would we not just as likely pick out picking up snakes, if we were to use this passage as proof?
David Larson
If the tongues spoken at Pentecost were the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and
the same tongues spoken today are the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, then
Why did people at Pentecost hear the men speaking in their own languages, but
When I hear a person speaking in tongues today, I don’t hear it in English (my own language), but it is indistinguishable to me (gibberish).
If you are speaking in the genuine tongues of Pentecost, I should be able to understand what you are saying, but I can’t. That is why we need a person with the gift of interpretation of tongues to tell us what is being said.
Comment?
Andrew
If a person is saved (born again) by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, then the evidence of the baptism seems to be not just “very important”, but paramount, for without it, you are still lost in your sins.
You say that the most importqant change is INSIDE the person – filled with the holiness and love of God. We would both agree that this is indeed paramount.
It seems clear to me that the paramount evidence is not what my mouth speaks (can be counterfeited), but that which cannot be counterfeited (holiness and the love of God).
Romans 8:13 says this clearly. We will live, if by the Spirit we put to death the works of the flesh. When the Spirit does this, Christ’s holiness reigns in our lives, and the fruit of the Spirit is manifested as God’s love (river of life).
Comments?
J. Lee Grady says,
“We charismatics celebrate the Holy Spirit, yet our theology of the
Spirit is often off balance.”
Why is this?
John 16:13 says,
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.
James 1:5 says,
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
Aren’t both of these promises for Charismatics, too?
Shouldn’t the people with the closest relationship with the Holy Spirit receive the most wisdom from Him, and not be off balance?
What is wrong with this picture?
Gary,
From my understanding of the scriptures concerning speaking in other languages (tongues) there are two manifestations. One is the gift of tongues, as in the Holy Spirit gives a language to the speaker that can be interpreted, (Spanish, German, Italian, ect..) like in Acts 2. But I also believe that the Spirit can manifest in a supernatural way that allows the speaker to speak in his/her native language, (English let’s say), but the hearer hears them speaking in their foreign language. The other manifestation is a language that cannot be understood by any man as the scripture states in:
1st Corinthians 14:2 (NKJV)
“For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.”
The KJV says [unknown] tongue but the word ‘unknown’ was inserted into the text. The Strongs number for the word ‘tongue’ here is 1100
1100. glossa gloce-sah’ of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):–tongue.
So if we hold to what the scripture says, there is a tongue or language that cannot be understood by anybody because the person is not speaking to men, but he/she is speaking mysteries to God in the ‘spirit’, and not in a language that can be interpreted given by the Holy Spirit, but OUR spirit is speaking. Which explains to me why many people call this tongue ‘gibberish’, it’s not gibberish to God! People just shouldn’t be speaking this language in the assemblies, as Paul told the Corinthians everything should be done for the edification of the body, what good is this tongue to the body if it can’t be interpreted. The scripture says this unknown tongue build’s up ourself. (1st Cor 14:4)
Also note that Paul said in 1st Cor. 13:1 that if he spoke in the tongues (plural) of men and of angels…. The tongues of men can be interpreted, but can the language of angels be interpreted? Something to meditate on! Hope this sheds some more light on the subject.
@David Larsen..Sir, are you for real or what??…seems you have very unique Christian “experiences” from the rest of us..obviously you’re admitance in you previous quote that ” I pray i am not the only one” places you as one of a kind..eh..indeed!
There is no such thing in Scripture as a prayer language a believer uses that he/she cannot understand:
http://www.letusreason.org/Pent3.htm
Yes i am for real and it should not be so. you should all know these things.Peter said Being born again by the word of God which lives and abides forever. They were not teaching out of a book they were preaching the word who is Christ. They were preching Christ Gods word in you. They seen Christ as Gods word in them being revelied or unvelied. Gods does all things by His word and His word is who and what was in the man Jesus the Christ. This is what makes us in to Sons. Gods word in us causes us to be as He was and is.These things that you all think are mysteryies should be common knowledge in the kingdom of God. So many spend so much time trying to figure out scripture instead of allowing Gods word in them to tell them all things in His time. Super natural experinces should be natural for those in the kingdom of God but most just do not believe they can or will happen while they are still in there physcial body. I guess no body ever told me these things were not possible or i did not listen. Now it is to late i dont know about speaking in tounges because some body told me or i read it in the bible. I have experinced it first hand and so know what it is about from my Father. If you would stop beliveing what you have been told by men and believe the simple truth you to would experince these things. God is not three persons He and His word are one and They are Spirit. Stop seeing Jesus as a man He is and was the Christ the word of God. Gods word became a man so we could see Gods word and get to know Him and bring about are salavation seeing how no man born from adam could do this. So Gods word became flesh and did what man could not do.
Well His word has come again and now lives in my flesh and i would hope yours and is still doing what men cant do and that is trying to get men to see the Father and to know Him and that all is possible through Christ Gods word that he has sent to do all He will in this earth. If you would only believe more then any thing else more then all you see every day that you put so much value on the things in the book of acts and the things Paul experinced would be common to you and not just something you have read in a book. If we truly are born again we are a special people we should walk and talk and do those things that Jesus did because He the Christ is in us. The sad part is that just as in days of old so many are reading scriptures but so few know the Christ in men. They are still waiting for Jesus to pop out of a cloud and can not see that it is in us that He is being revealed. The coming of Christ is in us now. John said that any one who preached a Christ other then the one who has come in the flesh was a anti christ something other then the true Christ. He went on to say that this was because He the Christ was to be living and be un veiled in you. I have know these things for years but was only told since Nov of 2009 to be about my Fathers business which is to turn the hearts of my brothers and sisters to the Father and tell them that the hope of the gospel is Christ in you being unveiled in you. When He said He would return the same way He went what He ment was just that. The first time He came in the flesh that God had prepared for Him and now He is coming again in these flesh vessels that God has made clean through His blood. We have been told by man that the end of the good news is heaven some day that is only a small bit of truth. The good news is Christ in you the hope of glory this is what all men stand in need of this is why God has sent His word and this is why He is standing up in a remnent in this hour and saying stiop playing church Christ in the hope of all the world and religion has kept it hidden all these years. That will happen no longer I have been told nothing can stop what God is about to do in those who have been being prepared and made ready for this hour. A mighty army will rise up in the earth and they fear neither man nor beast any thing that draws breath and they will do great things just as the captain of there salvation did before them. I got news for you this army is on the march. I can also tell from reading this post that some of you are in this army and are being given marching orders also. The whole world is about to see how great our God and Father really is we will not fail. For it is the word of God in us that will acomplish all His will in this earth.
David,
I have no trouble with much of what you are saying. I agree with you. If we are trying to do what the scriptures say, we are already messed up. WHat is accomplished through us in that situation is what Jesus spoke against in Matt 7
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Plesae, dear brothers and sisters, lay aside ALL of your pre-conceived notions and ideas of this passage. The people Jesus was speaking of will BELIEVE that they are doing the Will of God; in fact, they will be doing miracles, signs and wonders.
BUT they will also be doing iniquity and lawlessness; they will be walking in sin and will be TOLD to depart from the Lord forever.
How like the Pharisees most Christians are today. They read the scriptures, memorize them and attempt to do them thinking they are doing the will of God. They never realize that they must fall into the ground and die so that the resurrection life of Jesus may come forth.
I now attempt to stay away from arguing of doctrine these days. What good does it do? No one (rarely) will ever change through the venue of men’s arguments. All that ever happens is hurt feelings and self-righteous indignation (in other words, PRIDE)
Jesus did not argue. He spoke the truth in love. His love was NOT always pleasant or even nice! So many people today do not want to face that or even look at that possibility.
They have this nice doctrinal picture of Jesus whowalks around smiling at everyone, healing everyone, and never being cross at anyone. They forget how He spoke to the Pharisees. They forget that He spoke so harshly that MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES left Him and never followed Him again!
NOTICE THIS BRETHREN>>> His disciples Left Him. WHY? Because although what they originally heard was pleasant to their ears and they could tell there it was THE TRUTH, He bgan to speak to them of their requirments in order to TRULY follow Him.
It meant they could no longer do the things they wanted. In fact, they had no more rights to do anything at all. Everything they would do, would be at His command. Their whole lives, every part of it, would revolve around the Lord Jesus Christ. Even their private times, what they did with their money, who they would marry (if indeed they would marry) what they would eat, and even WHEN they would eat; what job they would do, what career path they would be in, where they would live, would they buy a house and then give it away?
Are we beginning to get an idea of what Jesus demands? THere is FAR MORE! We are to REJOICE when we are persecuted, we are to give beyond what we are capable of giving, (and that does NOT JUST MEAN MONEY but everything in our lives including ALL of our possessions) we are to bless everyone who treats us poorly, even that guy who cut us off on the freeway. We are to be hapy and joyful in EVERY situation, even when our boss fires us for no reason.
Oh, these are the COMMANDS of Jesus and they MUST BE LIVED FROM OUR HEARTS not just our actions.
That means we cannot even respond in the negative privvately in our hearts for us to walk in this kind of obedience! Read through Matt 5-7 and see what Jesus commanded.
Hva eyo useen that beautiful woman? Did you lust in your heart after here AT ALL? Then we are NOT walking in obedience, we have NOT entered the Life that Jesus offers us, for thsoe who have truly entered would NOT have that lustful reaction in their hearts!
There is NO INDEPENDENCE when we are in the Kingdom of God, for God is intimately involved in everything about our lives, even the hidden things that we hold way down deep inside of us that no one else knows about; even those must be absolutely PURE and CLEAN. If they are not, yet our outsides look good (to our eyes) then we are walking Just Like the Pharisees!
That is what Jesus came to do, that is the difference between legalism and TRUE CHRISTIANITY!
God bless you all!
a bondslave in Christ Jesus
That is a good word you have to share bondslave and a true one.
This is not a time for playing church i never learned how i came out of the streets 26 years ago. The only life i have know is the one i have now have in Christ and yes who i married my job and all that i do form the moment i get up is Christ in fact Christ is the only real life that there is all else is just a lie. For all those who have been playing Church time is up schools out time to get serious and i mean real serious.
I believe each & every one of us has the right, and is expected, to have their unique relationship with God. Is it not written so? I can also understand that perhaps one may see another’s relationship with God as being inappropriate, and maybe even sometimes, “not right”. – when I say that I can understand that, it certainly does not mean that I agree. I’m just saying that I can understand how one may deem, presume, judge, decide, or conclude. Here, I am specifically referring to the comments about the “popular charismatic speakers” and their actions. Making any or all of these prior listed assumptions/judgements, of course, can only be based on one’s individual appreciation of their learning (scholastic & theological), social impact (parents, schooling etc), and their God-given environment to date. Therefore one’s appreciation of another’s beliefs or actions, is filtered first through their own experiences. And here I must return to our individual, loving relationships with God. Who are we to say that those speakers, or in fact, anyone at all, does not have a joyous, freeing, spectacular relationship with God? Is the way they show & share that appreciation rightfully subject to judgement? And dare I say it, who are we to judge anything at all?! Could someone out there please introduce me to someone who knows absolutely everything there is to know about religion & spirituality? Beyond one’s Faith, what else is there?! Are we now permitting ourselves to change someone else’s mode of practising their Faith? I hope not. I’ll leave that job to God.
In fact, perhaps we could all focus a little more on the Love of God, and not the Fear of going wrong along the way. If His Love is all that consumes us, we’re done, safe & sound, home(!) already.
Kindness, Acceptance, Forgiveness don’t translate into controlling each others’ relationships with Him. Atleast not in any decent books I’ve read.
If we think that those speakers have gone wrong somewhere along the way, let’s pray for God’s blessings, of Love, and clarity. The rest of the job, if Faith is involved, is up to Him. Otherwise we won’t have come very far in our thinking since the Crusades.
God bless you all. May we all find the Joy in ourselves first, so that we may see it in others.
Joseph
Andrew: A few comments and observations regarding the article by Lee Grady: Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? and Gal 3:2 This only would I learn from you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
2. He is our Regenerator. Jesus told Nicodemus that we are
born again by the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). Lest one is “born of Water (washing of the word) and the Spirit” True conversion is the most supernatural thing we will ever experience! When a person
puts his faith in Christ for salvation, it is the Spirit who opens the
heart and quickens divine life. Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. He then indwells us. John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. Two positions neither of which are automatic, one is as the Spirit wills and the other is predicated on a relationship with Jesus: Romans 8. While this is
an invisible process, it is no less miraculous. When we are converted our hearts cry out, “Abba! Father” because the Holy Spirit is “the Spirit of adoption” (Romans 8:15); He gives us confidence that we are now children of God.
3. He is our Empowerer. When we are baptized in the Holy
Spirit we are “clothed with power from on high” (Luke 24:49,
NASB). The Spirit who already indwells Saying the Holy Ghost indwells ALL believers is not scriptural. The upper room Apostles and others there on the Day of Pentecost praying were born again and they were waiting for the infilling of the Holy Ghost. The book of Acts substaniates this in Acts 2; 5; 8; 9; 10; 11; 15; 19; Romans 5, us fills us to the point of overflowing. Jesus said the Holy Spirit’s power would flow
out of us like “rivers of living water” from our innermost being
(John 7:38). This overflow releases supernatural boldness
(Acts 4:31) as well as the anointing for various gifts of the
Spirit including prophecy, speaking in tongues and healing.
Blessings…………………..Rex
Thank you rapveron/rex!! You have spoken the truth! But, I think you might have to go a little further….as to God’s Purposes……..
Let us look at the twofold baptism.
There is a BAPTISM that is BY the Holy Spirit INTO the Body of Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by [means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.
This shows us that it is the Holy Spirit BY FAITH that causes us to become children of God. Not only that, but we are told He then resides in us giving His gifts.
BUT, that is NOT the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
In every Baptism there are 3 things involved.
1. There is a Baptizer, this is the one doing the Baptism, such as a preacher.
2. There is a Baptizee. This is the one being baptized.
3. There is an element. In the preacher’s case, it is waterl in the above case from I Cor 12 it is the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
BUT in the case of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, we are Baptized IN the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ. When this takes place, FIRE also shows us and absolutely CLEANSES the heart of the individual. There remains nothing of the former nature. (II Cor 5:17, Gal 2:20 etc.)
This does NOT make us sinless nor does it make us perfect like God. However, we are basically in the very same stat that Adam and Eve were in prior to the fall.
Can we be tempted? Yes, for as long as we live on this earth. We do not have perfect knowledge or anything else like that. What we then ahve is the Very nature of Jesus Christ Living in us.
Hence Paul tells us that he is no longer living it is Christ Jesus living through Him.
This is NOT automatic, It is received BY FAITH. If we do not believe it, it will never happen.
This condition is now a rarity in the Body of Christ in this day. Thgis is the end of the Law for those in this condition need no law or rule to tell them what to do, they live as Jesus lived; being led by the Holy Spirit in all things.
a bondslave in Christ Jesus
Dear Family,
I think may of us have been influenced/confused by denominational theologies. I note Jer 23:30 says “..I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who steal My words from each other…. This stealing has become very common and has become a substitute for each believer receiving the Word by personal revelation. This is why we have so much confusion and so little genuine inspiration and authority among many who have assumed the role of teachers.
To the topic, I would like to suggest a few pointers that I hope may bring clarity to some are struggling to understand.
Jesus was the first to be ‘Baptised in the Spirit’ in fact this was the particular sign that John the Baptist was looking for, that would identify the Messiah. John 1:32 – reads “John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptise in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’
“I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”
John had baptised many but on each occasion the Holy Spirit would come and leave the individual.
So then the Baptism of the Spirit is a permanent empowering from God upon the individual not an infilling, as Jesus was already filled (indwelled) with the Spirit at birth before he was Baptised in the Spirit.
This then is an important distinction between being born again, which is when you receive God’s indwelling presence, and being Baptised in the Spirit when you are empowered for ministry.
Jesus was born with the indwelling Spirit but still needed the empowering for ministry.
We have no record of Jesus speaking in tongues on the occasion of His Baptism in the Spirit.
Personally I had some fluency in a given tongue before being baptised in the spirit. At the time of being baptised in the spirit I had a profound encounter that was accompanied by deep repentance. This was life changing and at the time among other things, I received the gift of discernment.
I do associate the Baptism of the Spirit with the receiving of gifts for ministry but I am not convinced that all who speak in tongues are in fact baptised in the spirit. For this reason I think it dangerous to assume that all tongue speakers are baptised in the spirit or even saved for that matter. Remember in Matt 13 36_ The Son of Man will send forth His angles to separate the wheat from the tares in His Kingdom… we cannot be sure who is saved or not except by fruit… certainly not by gifts.
The other issue that has some confused is can a Christian have a demon and the Holy Spirit at the same time? Well it is clear that a Holy God will and can not co-habit with demons in fact the place that Jesus occupies within the human soul is reserved for him alone. I note that in Ecc 3:10 “He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.” Only God can dwell in the ‘eternity’ in our heart as demons are created beings captive to time, unable to cross the threshold into the timeless God space within.
Can we be worried, influenced, oppressed by demons? Of course, if we fail to stand on Gods word, fail to resist Satan and his servants and give in to fear, pride lust etc..
What of possession then? Can a Christian be possessed? Clearly not, there is no competition between Satan and God, God will not give a demon permission to take over His own Son or Daughter. But the unsaved can be fully controlled by the demonic, this is why deliverance often precedes being born again.
Lastly can the church or leaders in it command the Holy Spirit what to do… This has been a development in recent ‘revivals’ as if imparted power is something to be used at will…
Jesus himself could only do what he saw the Father doing.
At the point we have ourselves at the centre of His work there is something seriously wrong.
Maybe the teaching that we are a channel of Gods power has led to these deceptions, I was never comfortable with this.
He is in charge of His work, not us, we may be privileged to participate but it is His gospel, His power His work His healing… amen.
I once attended a church in which I was given to deliver a prophetic Word for the pastor which he received with weeping. I was then asked to prophesy over a line of believers as if I had a gift that I could turn on at will. As He was not saying much I had to decline but the clear message was that I needed more practice as a prophet. Herein lies the deception, we cannot ‘practice the gifts’… He is either doing work with or through us or he is not… if the Father is not doing it we dare not act. However in recent decades the fear of God has become a rare commodity so just about anything goes…
I love you all.
Stay in praise and thanks.
I hope someone benefits from these thoughts.
Thos
thos May 3rd 2010 said:
Dear Family,
I think may of us have been influenced/confused by denominational theologies. I note Jer 23:30 says “..I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who steal My words from each other…. This stealing has become very common and has become a substitute for each believer receiving the Word by personal revelation. This is why we have so much confusion and so little genuine inspiration and authority among many who have assumed the role of teachers.
————————–
This is a very astute comment. If we all searched the scriptures for ourselves and if we relied upon the Holy Spirit to be our primary teacher instead of trusting ALWAYS in men’s opinions and teachings there would be far less opportunity for confusion and false doctrine to take root.
Looking through many of the comments here it is OBVIOUS that men’s traditions are often being promoted instead of God’s truth.
Take a step back and ask yourselves the following:
Why do I believe this – is it something I GENUINELY learned through the revelation of scripture or am I believing something that was taught to me by someone else?
Better still, don’t just ask yourself the question, try HONESTLY answering the question.
BTW – I just want to make it clear that I believe in all 3 persons of the Godhead – Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
-Andrew Strom.
Right on Onesimus!
Thos, I have a question. Where in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit was dwelling in Jesus prior to His baptism?
If we look at Luke 3:22….The Spirit descended upon Jesus at the Jordan River.
Then if we look at Luke 4:1…Jesus, FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness.
Then Luke 4:14,15……Jesus returned to Galilee IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district. And He BEGAN TEACHING…….
There is no mention of Jesus having the “sign” of tongues…nor the gift of tongues…..tongues are not mentioned in connection with Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit; being filled with the Holy Spirit; or being baptized with the Holy Spirit…which according to Jesus Himself in Acts 1:8….endues the person with POWER.
Jesus never tells the disciples “you will receive tongues as a sign” . In Verse 8, Jesus continues to tell them, and us, what the PURPOSE of receiving this baptism of the Holy Spirit….”you shall by My witness……..”, which is exactly what happened at Pentecost! And it works so well……3,000+ people were born again!
THE GENUINE POWER OF GOD IS WHAT IS SADLY MISSING IN THE AMERICAN CHURCH.
The word “TO BAPTISE” means “TO COMPLETELY IMMERSE”.
When we are baptized with the Holy Spirit, (Acts 1:5) we are completely immersed with Him……..our flesh is absolutely surrendered and submitted to the will of God….under His Power, His Authority, His Direction. He rules and reigns over our spirit, soul, and body.
The RESULTS of this baptism were many, not only one!
Prophecy was fulfilled…I Corinthians 14:21-22
They spoke in languages that foreigners within hearing distance could understand.
Peter began to testify to God’s Plan of Redemption and Restoration that was revealed in Genesis and continually revealed all through scripture and how Jesus was the one to fulfill that Plan.
Peter declares the three Persons of God and the role each of them have in this Plan.
The Nature of God was manifested in those who were baptized with the Holy Spirit……evidenced in the Fruit of the Spirit Acts 2:44-47.
People were being saved …3,000…then that number kept growing…Acts 2:47
Acts 2:42-43…They devoted themselves to the things of God and one another; fulfilling the commandments of Jesus.
THEN , there were many wonders and signs.
Brothers and Sisters, let us PURSUE the things God has told us to pursue.
Happy Trials,
Thanks for your comments and question.
Jesus was clearly born of the Holy Spirit, His blood carried the very life of God. The Virgin birth was essential to establishing a pure and worthy Saviour who was sinless from conception and fit to become the One and only sacrifice for our sins. We must be careful not to ‘prove’ our personal theology by omission i.e. if it is not mentioned in scripture, it cant be true… is a dangerous way to measure truth. This equally applies to the Trinity which is a truth by implication. I have not found a scripture that tells me that Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit at birth. Jesus said “I and my Father are One” and “He who has seen me has seen the Father” My understanding of the Godhead is that as that Father Son and Holy Spirit are eternally in unison and that Jesus was both truly man and truly God (the full package with the Holy Spirit.) There is Mystery in this truth which is way beyond reason, something more to be in awe of than to understand.
By the way I agree with the comments you make about Jesus and Tongues, if this was a response to my pointing this out, maybe you misread my text as I said “We have no record of Jesus speaking in tongues on the occasion of His Baptism in the Spirit.” In this case it would be very odd indeed if he burst forth in tongues and it was not recorded given the level of detail we have about this event.
Blessings to all…
Thos.
Jesus was raised from the dead. The apostles all saw Him. They KNEW He was alive. Even Thomas, the doubter was convinced that Jesus was definitely ALIVE.
Then Jesus breathed on them and told them to receive the Holy Spirit.!
I submit to all that when Jesus does this to anyone, the get the Holy Spirit THEN!
So, why did the disciples have to wait? What was the Promise of the Father they were waiting for?
It was the KINGDOM OF GOD replacing the kingdom of satan within their hearts! Jesus had just spent 40 days explaining everything to them. They had already been given power over the enemy, they had been involved in healing people and had seen many miracles. But Jesus knew they needed MORE.
On the Day of Pentecost, they became witnesses to His life on this earth. It was because of this life being seen by the WORLD that the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch.
Christians: little Christs. WHY? Because they lived their lives JUST LIKE HE DID! They ceased living for themselves and LIVED ONLY for others, saying and doing only those things the Lord told them to say and do.
They were not perfect, they still made mistakes, they even occasionally did things wrong. But6 there hearts belonged SOLELY to the Lord from that day forward. There was NEVER a question as to whether or not they were saved. They may have alced some understanding, but their hearts were PURIFIED; they were single-eyed to the Lord, there was NO Doublemindedness!
If we cannot say the very same thing in reality, IN ACTUAL EXPERIENCE, then we need to seek the Lord to find out why and allow HIM to make us like them!
a bondslave in Christ Jesus.
we are called christians because Christ is in us and He is now are life. Christ became a man to abtain our salavation now He is the Christ who indwells all true believers. That is why the world nor most people who call themselves christians will even know us because they dont know Him. They think He is still a man they can not see that He is Spirit and now lives in all true believers.
By the way Andrew i have hope for you. Seeing how you figured out that we are not saved by asking Jesus into are heart. You will also come to see that the doctrine of the trinity is also not in the bible and God is not a person at all let alone three diffrent ones.
@David Larsen..sooo..which Bible are you quoting from this time, as I ealier posted..”@David Larsen..Sir, are you for real or what??…seems you have very unique Christian “experiences” from the rest of us..obviously you’re admitance in you previous quote that ” I pray i am not the only one” places you as one of a kind..eh..indeed!”
Which cult..opps church/fellowship you belong to??..love to know the basis of your faith…but if your conscience is sheared beyond help..then we rest our case.
Bondslave asks:
“So, why did the disciples have to wait? What was the Promise of the Father they were waiting for?”
———
The answer according to Jesus in Acts 1:
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but WAIT FOR THE GIFT MY FATHER PROMISED, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but IN A FEW DAYS you will be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.”
But you will receive power WHEN the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
@David Larsen:
Here is a quote from your comment on May 2nd
“I do not know the scriptures as the word of God. Gods word is alive and should be living in us Gods word was always coming to the prophets of old do you think they were reading a book when this happened?”
Ah…yes…at one time or another I’m sure they read from the first five books of the bible. Since most of their prophesies pointed directly back to the Word and the need for the people of God to return to His Word.
There is a very deceptive movement underfoot of separating the written Word from the “modern” or “end-time” moves of the Spirit….how very convenient…Danger…Danger….Danger Will Robinson!
Mr Semi Meo You are a funny guy.If you can not figure out who or what i am from what i have already said there is nothing more i could say and would not even try to. Just by your question about cult fellowship church tells me that i would be wasting my and your time trying to explain something to someone that only has time to jab around at something he does not understand.
Kathy
John 1
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.
What word do you think John is talking about here?
Could this be the same word that came to the prophets?
Could this be the same word that was wraped in felsh and secured our salavation?
1 peter 23 Being born again not of curruptible seed but of incorruptible by the word of God which live and abides forever.
As a brother and friend use to say people who think the bible is the word of God have never heard the word of God. Faith comes by hearing the word of God No wonder there are so many week christians they are having a love afair with a book instead of the living word of God.
Ah yes – the old “Jesus is the Word and the scriptures AREN’T the word” trick – a very spiritual sounding deception that has led many into error.
MOST of the time when scripture refers to the word of God it IS refering to His written or spoken word.
Yes, John refers to Jesus as the Word of God , but does that mean that the written word of Holy Spirit inspired scripture and Jesus the Word contradict each other?
NO!!!
The false distinction between the two is the very thing that has made extreme charismania possible.
Clarification
“MOST of the time when scripture refers to the word of God it IS refering to His written or spoken word.”
Of course WE have received His spoken word in written form through the scriptures.
Questioning God’s word is the oldest of Satan’s wiles – “Hath God said…?”
@David Larsen
Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
Hbr 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
volume is the hebrew word megillah it means: roll (scroll), book, writing.
Am I having a love affair with the Word…you bet!!!
nothing more to say you all are just way to smart for me.
Things have not changed in 2000 years.
@David Larsen..well..That’s a copout..and shall we say..frustration sets when guilt may have taken you on the bus of nothingness…yep…have met spiritual bipolars in my days..and you, Sir..may have just join that club..IF
…….am I “funny “ ?..who bet, I enjoy life
…do I “jab”..phew!!..this is battle ground mate!!..where saints are refined!!..but seems you have “nothing more to say”..which we are glad…be blessed.
John 5:38
And you have not his word abiding in you for whom he hath sent,
him you believe not.
39: Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.
40: And ye will not come to me, that you might have life.
These are not my words they are the words of the one you say you worship. He seems to know that there is a diffrence between the testamony of scripture and the reality of who he is and was..
If the Christ the word of God does not dwell in you then you are not his.We can only know God through His word and that word is Christ. That is why Jesus said he was the only way to the Father he Jesus is the word of God and shows us the way to the Father.
I am just trying to get you to see there is more to Jesus then who he was as a man. Paul said not to know him jesus any more after the flesh. To bad most will only ever know him this way. And not as the risen Christ the Holy word of God come to live and grow in them that they would be made in his image.
onesimus,
No, th epromise of the Father has been all through the Old Testament. It refers to the very life and Nature of God, AND HIS KINGDOM living within His people.
Or are you saying that Elijah did not have the Holy Spirit? Seems to me, that he and Samuel had more of the Holy Spirit back in the OT than anybody I know of today.
Yet, we are told that what we are SUPPOSED to have to day is FAR BETTER than what they had. But where is it?
It cannot be seen or even discerned. The lives they lives were far more holy on the outside than those of today.
Yet Jesus tells us IF we are TRULY CLEANSED on the inside, the OUTSIDE will also be clean. You see, it is NOT evident. So few are living in this manner. It is NOT a reality in the lives of believers today.
BUT THAT IS WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE!
At least according to Jesus. Perhaps we all need to go to Him and find out directly from Him instead of trying to figure it out for ourselves.
a bondslave in Christ Jesus
We do not need to go to him he comes and lives in us as the Christ the Spirit of the Living God. In the old testament the word of God just came to men in the new the word of God comes to live in these temples made of clay. The gift God has given us is to great for most to believe. They are waiting for something after they die. Well i was dead in adam and have been made alive in Christ Jesus i will never die again. Are whole thought on death is diffrent then Gods He sees all that is seperate from Him as dead.
In Christ we are made alive and one with God. Natural death is no longer fearful for those in Christ because now He is there life.
This gift Gods offers us has to be believed on Christ in you is the hope of glory. In the old the spirit of God dwelt in a box and ment all there needs and fought there battles. In the new one sacrifice made it possible for God to dwell in a people. We are that people if only we believe. Well to late for me not only do i believe i walk with Him everday and no one can talk me out of it and I am not waiting to get to some place called heaven i walk in the knigdom of God everday and so can any one else because the price has already been paid all you have to do is believe it.
Bondslave,
the words of Jesus are good enough for me. What He said could not be clearer or more staight forward.
The promise of the Father was the gift of the Holy Spirit sent to indwell the believer.
Hullo All,
I would like to respond to the replies to David Larsen for a couple of reasons.
Firstly I think that this is an international forum and a window to the world.
One of the main aspects of our evangelism is to bee seen as one as He is one with the Father. (Jn 17:21)
At the same time there is a place for correction but in the spirit of 2 Tim 4:2 ie. with great patience.
I believe that we should be careful to honour each other and carefully minister the truth without being divisive, the Truth itself will divide.
Here we have an opportunity to showcase our faith without the party theology that has led to the denominational mess we are all well aware of.
So lets love each other and correct with humility gentleness and patience, avoiding any personal comment that could reduce this forum to little more than a zealous group lie detectors… Please.
Thos.
does anyone know of someone who like the apostles in the first church pray for people for the geniune authentic baptism in the Hoylspirit and they get filled and speak with other tongues, prophesy, magnify God and receive true enduement of power. Are there any men today who have this God given ability. I would like to know where they are if anybody on this board has come across someone who God uses like this.
yes
http://www.rci.org.au
Paul,
The Lord has said in prophecy (Book of Joel) that there will be a latter rain, and in Matthew 24:14 Jesus says “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”
When you see these things happening, (which I believe is very soon to come), then the world will know who the Lord’s apostles and prophets are.
Original sin, Original sins…..there were many in Genesis.
Let’s not make the same “error” that Eve did in Genesis 3:3….adding to the word of God compared to Genesis 2:17…
We are warned not to add to, nor take away from the word of God.
Let’s define our words according to God’s definition…not man’s. We must have our minds renewed to “know,speak” God’s language…not try to make God’s language “conform” to our language, our definitions.
What is “spirit”? According to God’s word, the spirit is the essence of who that person is….that which makes them unique to any other person…..our identity/personality so to speak.
What is “soul”? What is “nature”?
Our soul is our mind, will, emotions……that which makes up our ADAMIC NATURE/CHARACTER and GOD’S DIVINE NATURE/CHARACTER.
What makes up a “person”? A person consists of immortal spirit and immortal soul.
The spirit and soul of every person created are immortal….the difference between unbelievers and believers is only the location of where their immortal souls and spirits spend eternity….separated from God, or united in full fellowship with God.
A body is only a “tent” covering for a person. Not a necessary component for being a person. Many other created things have bodies, but are not persons.
1)God, the Father, has a mind, will, emotions, and a Spirit, therefore He is a person. The Father has emotions..wrath, anger, love, etc. The Father has wisdom, knowledge, truth, etc.
2)Jesus has a mind, will, emotions, and a spirit, therefore He is a person.
3)The Holy Spirit has a mind, will, emotions, and of course He is Spirit. Scripture states we can grieve the Holy Spirit; we can lie to the Holy Spirit; The Holy Spirit has wisdom, truth, and revelation. John 14:17; I John 4:6
Adam had a spirit because God breathed life/spirit into Adam. Genesis 2:7 “And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. ”
We are told Adam has a soul which is the ADAMIC NATURE BEFORE THE FALL…sinless and enjoying full fellowship with God.
God did not say He breathed His Holy Spirit into Adam…He specifically used the word “life”….meaning a man’s spirit. When a man’s spirit leaves his body…his body is classified as physically dead.
God, Adam, and Eve enjoyed fellowship with one another because there was no sin separating them. As soon as Adam and Eve sinned…there spirits and souls became separated from the fellowship of God….because He is Holy and now they are not….God hates sin and uses the fire of His Holiness to destroy it.(Moses in the wilderness is a good example)
It was for their own good that God drove them out of Paradise physically.
Because of the sin of Adam and Eve, every human is born with the same corrupted/UNHOLY Adamic nature……the human sin nature…proned to sin against God and man. Billions of persons, but ONE NATURE.
We are CO-EQUAL IN NATURE (the Adamic sin nature)…..yet we are separate persons.
As all humans are co-equal in nature…the Adamic sin nature, yet separate persons; so also is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit co-equal in Divine nature, eternity, and power, yet separate persons.
The word “One” in “One God” is referring to a composite unity, not merely a solitary “1″. Just as in Genesis 2:24…God refers to Adam and Eve as becoming “one flesh”; Mark 10:8 and Numbers 13:23,24 use the same “One” as in a cluster of grapes being One.
Jesus was born of a virgin birth to avoid obtaining the sin nature that we all have. He was born with the uncorrupted Adamic nature that Adam had BEFORE THE FALL….innocent, sinless, in full fellowship with God The Father.
His was the zenith of human nature as the Father always intended it to be.
Jesus was ALSO born with the DIVINE NATURE which He had before His incarnation. While on earth, Jesus had two natures. Jesus had only one spirit…a man’s spirit…….UNTIL His baptism in the Jordan River, at which time the Holy Spirit INDWELT Jesus and FULLY IMMERSED Jesus WHICH ENDUED HIM WITH POWER TO OVERCOME HIS TRIAL AND TEMPTATION FOR 40 DAYS IN THE WILDERNESS.
It is just as much heresy to say that Jesus is only God as it is to say that Jesus is only Man.
It was Man who sinned and Man who needed to be punished for that sin.
Animal sacrifices were insufficient, and since all three persons of God are eternal and cannot die, that leaves Man, a sinless Man, who had to pay the punishment for the sins of all mankind because the FIRST ADAM sinned.
It was not the Divine Nature who died on that cross, it was the LAST ADAM, Jesus’ SINLESS ADAMIC NATURE. The ADAMIC NATURE who overcame sin, the world, the flesh, Satan, and 3 days later overcame death, ALL BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Jesus Christ was the God-Man. Although He never ceased POSSESSING His Divine Nature, Jesus DELIBERATELY LIMITED His Divine Nature while on Earth, in order to be truly human. John 5:19,30; John 8:28; John 14:10,28.
He had to limit Himself to His Adamic Nature for too many reasons to list, but here’s two:
1) A Human sacrifice was necessary to pay the punishment for Human sin.
2)The FIRST ADAM failed to overcome sin, death, the world, and Satan, therefore the Adamic Nature that each of us inherited would continuously fail us in the same way.
Therefore, the LAST ADAM MUST SUCCEED where the FIRST ADAM failed so that we who are born again can have a new nature that is victorious and able to overcome sin, death, the world, and Satan. This new nature is the Adamic nature of the risen Christ! So while we walk on this earth, we are filled with 1) our old sin nature/Adamic nature 2) Jesus’ overcoming Adamic nature 3)The Divine nature of the Holy Spirit.
This is how we each can satisfy 1Jn 3; Rom 8; Gal 5….THE NORMAL CHRISTIAN LIFE
We have no excuses for continuing in sin, which is walking in the flesh instead of walking by the Spirit. One cannot be Filled with the Spirit/Baptized/Immersed with the Spirit of God and sin at the same time….sin grieves and quenches the Spirit of God.
The Gifts of the Spirit; The Fruit of the Spirit; and the POWER OF GOD WILL NOT be manifested when the Spirit is quenched and grieved.
That is why the American church is POWERLESS……Believers AND unbelievers are not convicted of sin; Very little increase to the Kingdom of God; And increasing DARKNESS in America.
Because the American church is NO LONGER SALT AND LIGHT…….IT’S POWERLESS.
We want to put the cart before the horse….and pursue the power and the gifts that God bestows on those who walk in faith, righteousness, and His Spirit, instead of pursuing what God has commanded us to pursue. Heb 12:14; Rom 9:30-32; Rom 14:19; I Cor 14:1; I Tim 6:11; IITim 2:22; I Peter 3:11
May Peace reign in your hearts and souls.
God does not have a spirit He is Spirit. There is a diffrence.
We are people or persons. God is God and we are not.
God is not a person nor is He three diffrent persons.
No where in the bible does it say that God is a person.
If you ever seen Him you would know how far from the truth the stament is that He is a person.
Can you seperate your self from your words? Do not your words tell what is really in your heart? Do you know if they cut you open they would not find you because you are spirit and the real you is not flesh and blood.
Why are we always trying to split God up into diffrent parts?
When the bible says that He is one. It takes God himself to show us that He is not three diffrent parts.
We are made in a earthly image of the one God Just as you and your words come out of who you are so does his word come out of Him. That is why the bible says that Jesus was the express image of the invisible God. Jesus said I and the father are one not two or three diffrent ones.
God the Christ are Spirit they are God and we call God are Father if so be the Spirit of Christ dwells in you.
Most of what we think we know about God if we are truthful we will say is not really in the bible it is what men have told us is in there. I have found that what works best is to just ask Him my self and He will show you just as He has me. No body could convince me that He would show me these things and not you he does not play favorites and He is a good Father to all those who Believe and ask in faith. We make things so complicated so we can explaine something that is unexplaineable.
Men can not understand God as being one so He makes things up to try to explaine what only God can show him.
I use to believe in the trinity and could teach it with the best of them. Then one day i seen Him and knew that these things were not true. The one God we call Father is Spirit and his word express who He is perfectly and that word is Christ.
Oops…sorry David that should read
“God the Father, has a mind, will, emotions, and is a Spirit, therefore He is a person.”
One little word can change the whole truth to a lie.
Thank you for pointing that out.
Thos
MATT 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers; for they shall be called the sons of God.
HappyTrails
I was not trying to correct you i was only saying what i believe to be the truth. People will have to decide on what you have to say for themselves. I will say thou that the truth can never be turned into a lie. Truth will always be truth. The bible says that God is light and there is no darkness in him at all.
It takes God himself to show us what truth is it is more then just reading words on paper. We and what we think may change but God and His word never will.
I think most of the problem we have is we try to make God into an
image like man and can not see that God is not a man.
All that the bible has to say about God like he sits on a throne and has eyes and hands and such is to try to get us to understsnd what cant be understood by the natural mind.
God fills all things there is no place you can go where He is not there. I have seen Him and can tell you from that calling Him a person greatly takes away from what and who He really is.
But i use to many years ago think that He was a person or three persons until i seen him then i knew the truth and as is says the truth will set you free from all your ides about something.
Think about what Jesus told the apostles if you have seen me you have seen the Father for I and the Father are one.
Have things changed?
Was Jesus lying?
When you see Jesus as the Christ the son of God you wil know that they are one and the same thing.
Jesus said this is what His church would be built on.He also said that only God could show this to someone.
We so often strugle to see or believe things written in the bible when God so wants to be a Father to us and show us all things about Himself and His word. If it seems i go on a bit about these things it may be because only after 26 years my Father has told me to go out and say what He is saying in me.
I do not condem any one for what they believe at one time or another i most likley believed the same thing.
I guess i have come to the place where i am careful about what i tell my Fathers children is it in the bible or is it something that i have been told is in there. Much of what we think we believe is not the way it really is. It takes God to show us the way we are to go. He gave us the bible as a testimony of what he has done and is doing. He gave us Himself in Christ to help us see these things.
What a mighty God we serve with out the author living in us all we will do with the bible is use it to cut each other to pieces.
Greetings in Jesus Name. Thank you Thos for expressing your concerns about some of the ‘attitudes’ that have been apparent in this forum.
One of the things that has been concerning me is the divergence of opinions, when in fact we are supposed to be ‘coming to a knowledge of the truth’. I am sure that we all think we have the truth, but isn’t it pretty logical that if we have diversity of opinions, then at least some of us don’t have THE truth. God’s Truth does not vary as our understanding of it does. God’s Truth is established for all eternity, and it is perfect. Psa 19 v7-9 etc.
Given that God’s Truth is perfect, without variation, and endures forever – how is that we as His followers don’t all ‘get it’ the same. What are the possible factors that lead us to arrive at different conclusions about God and His ways. Maybe:
The teaching we have predominantly listened to;
Our own intellect – and closely linked to that is our pride;
The degree to which we have been led by our own soulish preferences – or guided by the ‘flesh’ rather than the Spirit;
The spiritual ‘culture’ in which we have bee nurtured;
And probably occurring in all of the above – the subtle deceptions of the enemy.
When the disciples asked Jesus: “What will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?”, the very first thing Jesus said was: “See to it that no one misleads you.” In the discourse that follows, he raised this concern a further two times. See Matt 24, Mk 13 & Lk 21.
These words of Jesus need to be taken more seriously. Jesus stressed three times, not merely the possibility, but more likely the probability of us being led astray. We are in the last days, so we need to sit up and take notice, being diligent about taking every necessary measure we can to avoid being led astray. Pride will always want to get in the way. We all hate admitting to being wrong.
But in God’s kingdom, the greatest safety is found in submitting to God everything we think is the truth, and asking His Holy Spirit to correct any misunderstanding we may have. God loves it when we humble ourselves before Him and admit our desperate need of His guidance. Psalm 25 v4-14 is a great encouragement in this respect.
In addition to humbling ourselves in this way, what are the ‘keys’ to knowing THE Truth. There are two basic assumptions to what follows:
1. The Scriptures are the source of all truth about God and His ways.
2. The Holy Spirit is the one who reveals the Truth of God’s Word.
The Truth is contained in the Word, but the revelation of that truth is another matter. So the Spirit and the Word must work together if we are to come to a knowledge of the Truth. To emphasise the need for this, we only need to remember that the devil also knows how to use the Scriptures for his own ends. He even tried to con Jesus in the desert. But Jesus countered him by using Spirit inspired words – also from the Scriptures.
As I have been reading through this forum, it is obvious that many people are using the ‘letter’ of the Word, rather than the ‘spirit’ of it. “…the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” and “We impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.”
I would like to continue this theme tomorrow by giving what I believe are some of the most important keys to knowing the Truth.
Til then – may God bless you all. Colin
Personally I think we should all pray for revival to hit the USA. I agree with the original author and would just like to add that the Holy Spirit is also the most…tender…and if we sin against the Holy Spirit that is thee unpardonable sin and no other. So lest people but themselves in harms way be careful what you say and do regarding the Holy Spirit.
Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgivness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
30: Because they said ,He hath a unclean spirit.
We are indanger of the same thing when we judge things before we know where they truly come from.
That is why we are told to love one another.
I may not agree with what you say but that does not mean you are in a cult or not saved it only means maybe we are growing and we need to be careful with one another.
When you were children did you beat up your brothers and sisters because they seen things like kids do like you did when you were a kid?
I would hope the answer would be no.
The truth is those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ are all my brothers and sisters and any thing i might know is not because i am smart it is because my and your Father is full of mercy and grace and gives good gifts to His children.
We do not want to be modern day pharisees by saying that something is of the devil just because it does not line up with the way we have been taught.
What we are really saying there is not any way i could be wrong.
That is the very thing that put Jesus on the cross.
I would hope we dont put Him up there again by trying to kill one another with our words.Paul was told he was persecuting Jesus when he was killing christians and putting them in jail.
Are we doing the same when we kill each other with are words?
I believe the answer is yes. Oh well just some thoughts to ponder.
As far as revival goes what is about ready to happen is going to be so great that the word revival is not adequate.
I have been told by my Father that it will sweep the world like a consuming fire. Guess what my brothers and sisters i have a box of matches and i have been waiting 26 years to light them and i have been told the time is soon.
We can only make God known to others to the degree that we know Him ourselves. When I am in every day mode, I am a broken man, but when I speak of the things of God, I am bold as a lion (hence my username) and I say things that are so profound that I know that it did not originate from me, it came from the Holy Spirit.
No one who truly knows the Lord God can call the Holy Spirit an “it”, for He has personality, He has direction, He has an ability that trandscends our ability and gives us the divine life of Grace to enable us to live a holy life.
I often hear about the ” MYSTERY of the trinity” 1 Tim 3:16 says great is the “MYSTERY of GODLINESS”
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, recieved up into glory. ” There is no triune God spoken of here. ” One God and Father of all who is ABOVE all and THRO!UGH all and IN YOU all.”
Ephesians 4:6 Thats right! That’s the Mystery! The Lord of Glory IS the Spirit that dwells in you. There is only ONE God and His name is Jesus Christ. So Christ dwells in you, The Father dwells in you, The Holy Spirit dwells in you. You don’t have three co-equal persons of the trinity dwelling in you. You don’t have three spirits dwelling in you. No only One, and He was and He is and He is to come. Praise God for his unsearchable mercies.
Response to Paul’s question YES!!!! Every Sunday at the altar people are filled with the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in other tounges. People operate in the Super-Natural gifts of the Spirit. Just like the day of Penecost. Just like the early church.
In fact Acts 2:38-39 Says. And Peter answered and said “Repent and be Baptized EVERYONE of you in the Name of Jesus Christ and you SHALL recieved the Gift of the Holy Ghost. This PROMISE is for YOU and YOUR CHILDREN and for ALL that are afar off. Even for as MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL.” Its for me and you and all of us.! Being washed in the waters of baptisim being filled with the Spirit. It’s Wonderful
Vicki
Preach it sister.
To Paul,
There are pockets of such life, a spark here and there but we still wait for the fire… I have seen personally many outstanding ‘book of acts’ miracles as Jesus has worked with myself and my friends, mostly in the ‘market place’ or in private homes. I think there are many of us waiting for ‘our time’. It is worth noting also that the book of acts did not all happen in a year but the events took many years, i.e. the miracles were not occurring every day.
To Colin,
Well put, look forward to more. For me a real key was to put aside several years when I read nothing but the scripture and my sole focus was to grow in Him, I think these things do not come easy, there is now way to avoid the hard yards, trials and crisis. I know for sure that He has me in 40 years of preparation. Somehow modern thinking is to attend seminars for a year or two and and be at the feet of various ‘superstars’. I dont see that this path results in the depth that Jesus is looking for, there is no substitute for solitary time with God, we have to want to know Him and be transfomed by Him more than anything else. If we dont have this burning desire we should ask for it…
Thos.
David Larsen
Matthew 22
29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
Romans 15
4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
You are walking in error but even worse is you are promoting this error to others. All prophecy and revelation that is truly from God – ALL of it points back to and aligns with Scripture. The words you speak are clearly against Scripture and therefore in error.
Jesus Christ did or said nothing that went against Scripture (at that time is was the writings of the Prophets and the first five books of the Bible – the Torah) and was constantly quoting Scripture, teaching Scripture and fulfilling Scripture.
So my specific question is does anyone know of a person who has been consistently used by God in the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holyspirit?
I understand The gift of the HolySpirit can be recieved without the laying on of hands, but i want to know of a believer anywhere in the world today who without any manipulation or fleshly methods, prays for people and they get filled right on the spot. Acts 8, 19
does anyone know of such a person? And where are they?
ps i have seen so much manipulation and flesh in the receiving of the Holyspirit, ministers who teach people how to speak in tongues or make them say a few words or hype up the people into a frenzy and then claim this is the baptism of the HS without any power from on high.
I want to know of a geniune minister who really sees the geniune authentic bible experience of the HS baptism in our day?
I believe HSB its for today and i believe it is a distinct experience to the new birth.
To Gary Martin
I know who scripture says is the accuser of the brethern.
Do you?
Sound to me as if you may have a plank in your own eye.
You might want to check before you go poking around in something you know nothing about. Something to think about Gary.
I think Gary Martin has shown he knows about the importance of scripture and about those who would reduce its importance.
Paul,
I don’t think you could point to any specific individual and say they have a special ability to impart the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands.
God and God alone can fill/baptise people with the Spirit. Sometimes this can be done without any contact from another believer and sometimes He uses a believer to lay hands on the person seeking His gift of the Spirit.
This laying on of hands should not be confused with the claims of imparting special “anointings” that are common in charismanic circles.
To receive the Holy Spirit, faith and repentance from the seeker are essential.
When Peter spoke at Pentecost he said “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”. So it is clear that water baptism is also a scriptural condition.
I do not agree that tongues is the only evidence of Baptism in the Holy Spirit but I do believe that there will be observable evidence. In addition to tongues, scripture mentions that some who received the Spirit prophesied and others gave glory to God. All of these indicate some kind of vocal response happening as a result of being immersed and filled with the Spirit.
This may be related to what Jesus said about the mouth speaking out of the abundance of the heart. When the heart is full of the Holy Spirit, the mouth will speak out of that abundance.
What about those who desire the Holy Spirit but never seem to receive? They can only follow Jesus’ instructions to ask and keep on asking. My wife didn’t stop asking for two or three years until she received.
Peter at Pentecost said:
““Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”.
Interesting that he did not say “repent and be baptized and you will be saved”!
Do you know who you really are?
When I do the things I would not do, it is not “I” but rather it is doubt about my “true identity” that will do these things.
Well then, if it is not I that do things I would not do, how do I deal with this? O foolish virgins who has bewitched you from obeying the truth of your completeness? There are many that advocate that we need to fix ourselves by being good, getting our ducks in order, taking control of our life, self discipline and the list is endless, in fact we are ever learning and never able to fix this old man/woman. We have been bewitched! How can you fix a dead man?
The question then becomes what are we trying to fix? Many of those who bewitch others (use witchcraft) we will find are preachers, well meaning friends, and our TV’s are filled with many popular personalities that tell us how to fix ourselves. I call darkness my friend because; happy is the man that condemns not himself, for the things which God allows. Yes, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, that is what happens when I do the thing I would not do, I’m walking in the shadow of death, and it is a shadow, because death has been swallowed up in victory and it has no power over us. It is in that valley of the shadow of death that I learn nothing can separate me from the love of my Father, also I learn you cannot fix what is not broken, and not to call unclean what God has cleansed. Yes! God will allow us to walk through the valley; do you condemn yourself in that valley, O foolish virgin?
We are born of an incorruptible seed, we are virgins, and we are complete in that seed of Christ. Paul called the woman in Romans seven an adulterous because she did not acknowledge her first husband as being dead, and was trying to justify herself by the goodness of the law. When we do that, (justify ourselves) this does NOT change the fact that we are virgins and the seed of Christ is not corruptible. We have just become foolish virgins that are bewitched and have lost the oil (anointing) that would bring forth the light in our lives. Paul went on to invite the foolish virgins (woman or souls) in Romans 7:4 to get married, get intimate, with the one who is raised from the dead…that’s you!…the real you has been raised from the dead with Christ. There is nothing to fix, and this we will learn in the darkness as we realize it is not the “I” (incorruptible seed) but unbelief that dwells within us.
Ok I see it! The “I” that I am cannot be corrupted, but how do I deal with this unbelief (sin) that I find within myself? First we must realize that we have this treasure within an earthen vessel, and this vessel has a genetic memory of all the sins of our forefathers. The New Creation Man is “NOT GUILTY” of the unbelief of our earthly fathers. The corruption of this earthen vessel MUST put on incorruption, and that’s where we come in. We will need to walk through all the darkness that we find our self in and not waver in the faith and rest of who in fact we really are. O death (darkness) where is thy sting, O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death (darkness) is sin (unbelief) and the strength of this darkness is SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS (the Law) but our faith and rest in our true identity (completeness in Christ) gives us the victory. This trust and rest will not only be victory for us, and keeps the anointing in our lives, but it will bring healing to all of our forefathers. Those who rest and come forth in their true identity, in the midst of darkness, will cause all creation to put on incorruption. .
This is the day when many want to identify with the Son’s and would like to be called a completed son, but they still (Isa. 4:1) want to wear their own clothes. In other words they still want justify themselves by the works of their own goodness. When Jesus asked the question “why do you call me good, there is none good but God”, he could have added; do you see the Father in me, is that why you call me good? Jesus also said if you SEE me you SEE the Father. This can also be true us because, when we see Him as he is, we are like Him, and then we will put on only the garment of pure linen, and will not have any need to justify ourselves, even when we find ourselves in a time of darkness. We have been justified and there is no way that we can improve completeness. Put on the garment of praise and thanksgiving!
One of the favorite quotes of those who resist this word is; “this will give you a license to sin and you can go out and do whatever you want to do”. Hello! Just what is it you want to do? You must understand that when you are born of the incorruptible seed of Christ, we do come into a liberty from any and all religious activity, and we have no need to prove anything! Even when we do things we would not do (a trial of our faith) we give thanks as we realize it is not “I”. Paul talked about false brethren (Gal. 4:2) that would come in, so they can spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus…and their reason….they want to bring us back into the same bondage that they are in under the law. Misery likes company!
Psa 139:11 If I say, surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee].
May all those who are of Is-Real bring forth praise for such a great salvation!
Thank you, Tom for the comment. Yes, I am a KISS in theology. Also no 2 Trinitarians agree (fully) on the complex doctrine the early church fathers dreamt up. I remember the denomination I was in trying to help me “Get It”. I Gave UP. The Bible explains it much better, “God is One”.
But, with the subject at hand, the evidence is what they experienced at Pentecost in the upper room and the fruit was Peter and his eloquent explanation of what took place in that chapter.
The “Gift” of Tongues (one of the 9 gifts) is what is doled out by God as He sees fit. Most EVERYONE seems to mix this up and it is Acts that speaks of the infilling evidence of tongues in an UNKNOWN language that God understands. One entry mentions the 3 places where it is recorded. Where in Corinthians, Paul elaborates on the “gift”, {weaving in a few things in here and there on the evidence}. Where he says “I speak in tongues more than you all” I see as the evidence {yet it could be the gift}. But we are to pray in the spirit in the unknown tongue as it is what builds up our inner man and the flesh grows weaker. Paul in Romans explains all of this on sanctification etc…but the “gift” is not for the one operating the gift, but for the congregation and it is to be interpreted. Paul gives excellent instruction on the operation of this gift in this book.
The evidence being our personal prayer language that God alone understands (not even the devil, so it makes the prayer private) and it does not need to be interpreted as it is between us and God. When you understand the two different “tongues” it makes a muddy picture much clearer.
And when you pray in your prayer language it is not to be “the focus” of your prayer. And I believe you should pray in your known language until all prayed out or you have exhausted the topic in prayer. Thus you have expressed all you know how in a matter you are bringing before the throne of God. Then you can slip into your private unknown tongue to pray as you do not understand. It is a perfect prayer and the perfect will of God and not our carnal thinking in the matter you are praying.
Romans chapter 8 talks about prayers of “groanings that can’t be uttered”. When I am spent on a prayer. I shift into “auto pilot” so to speak and pray the perfect will of God as my carnal mind is dislodged and He is praying for me and thru me on a deep personal level that I can’t Thus the whole reason for the unknown tongues thing to be our Guide, Teacher, Comfort etc…God manifest thru us. And it is a pearl of great price that is not to be cast before swine.
We can look at ourselves as mobile tabernacles as we move about here and there with the very presence of God in the Mercy Seat within us. When we yield to Him and allow Him to move thru us….well how wonderful that can be. May we do it always as Paul mentions,
I know I was not able to walk the walk before I was filled with the Holy Spirit of God for 2 yrs. Then after receiving it I was filled with power (Acts 1:8) to be the witness to the uttermost as mentioned there.
So once we are filled with the evidence we can finally have the power to walk the walk and fulfill all He is asking of us to do as a Christian believer in Christ. Maybe some have more will power or less sin than this ole housewife did when young. But after being filled I finally had what it took to walk the walk and talk the talk.
It is all about doing the will of the father not our thing and we know His will is to obey his commands, love God first and foremost, then our neighbor as ourselves. Love one another etc…We can’t do it with out the spirit of God within us to do it thru us. I couldn’t anyway. Maybe some are better or has less in or whatever. But the “rubber meeting the road”, or “KISS” as Tom put it is be filled with His precious Holy Spirit that He died to give us so we can be all He wants us to be to fulfill His plan. The evidence of this infilling is the extra dimension we need to be all He wants us to be and do all He wants us to do.
James 1:27 is the will of God and it takes the power from on high to do His will. To accept anything else is to be robbed of the power He wants us all to have. But it may take work to get it such as getting rid of pride, idolatry, false teaching, etc…to fully surrender. But that is what it takes full surrender.
That is what the scriptures say to me. AlamoAA
Vicki and David:
” The Lord of Glory IS the Spirit that dwells in you. There is only ONE God and His name is Jesus Christ. So Christ dwells in you, The Father dwells in you, The Holy Spirit dwells in you. You don’t have three co-equal persons of the trinity dwelling in you. You don’t have three spirits dwelling in you. No only One, and He was and He is and He is to come. Praise God for his unsearchable mercies.”
ONENESS THEOLOGY dishonors God by asserting that THE FATHER came down and wrapped Himself in flesh and that flesh was called “Son”—Jesus’ human nature.
ONENESS THEOLOGY dishonors God by asserting that the Son of God was a mere creation at Bethlehem. Against such teaching, Scripture presents that the PERSON OF THE SON IS THE ETERNAL GOD (John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Heb. 1:1ff.) who shared intimate and loving fellowship with God BEFORE TIME (cf. John 1:1b).
Jesus said that He had glory para (“side-by-side,” “in the presence of”) the Father “BEFORE the world was” (John 17:5). “He who does not honor the Son,” Jesus declares, “does not honor the Father who SENT Him” (John 5:23).
True Christianity is based on the worship of the true God.
The Oneness assertion that the Son was a product of creation not only dishonors both the Father and the Son, but even more, it places another god on the throne other than the God of Scripture.
The author of Hebrews (directly quoting God the Father) presents the Son as the eternal God who was the Yahweh of the Old Testament, CREATOR of the heavens and earth.
Hebrews 1:2 states “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3b (the Son) “sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; ”
Hebrews 1:8-10 militates against the Oneness position regarding the preexistence of the Person of the Son.
Verse 10 “And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: ” (God speaking to the Son)
As with John 1:1-3; and 1 Corinthians 8:6, the prologue of Hebrews systematically presents the Person of the Son as Yahweh Elohim, the Creator of all things.
If the Son did not eternally exist with the Father as a distinct Person why is it that the “Son” can say, “Now, Father, GLORIFY ME TOGETHER WITH YOURSELF, with the glory which I HAD [eichon, or “shared”] with You BEFORE THE WORLD WAS?? John 17:5
And I return to Genesis 1:26 “Let US make make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness….(this is PLURAL…who is God speaking with?) verse 27 “in the image of God created he him…”
Genesis 3:22 “Man is become as ONE OF US”
Genesis 11:7 “Let US go down and there confound their language”
Isiah 6:8 “Who will go for US?”
The scriptures do not teach that the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT are ONE PERSON.
ONENESS THEOLOGY rips the heart out of Christianity—it denies Christ by misrepresenting Him.
ONENESS THEOLOGY embraces another Jesus, another Gospel, and another Spirit.
If you worship another god other than the One True God, you are lost in your sins.
You can not know God or worship him without Christ.
You have no idea who i am or where i have come from i am aware of oneness theolgy and have never said any thing about Christ being created. The scriptures do not teach that God is a person at all let alone three diffrent ones.You are a person and i am a person and God is God and you and i are not and never will be. Why do you insist on making Him into your image.
And why do you all insist on trying to destroy any thing that does not fit in your nice little theoligcal box did you ever stop to think that there is more to this then men have thought up.
Christ Gods word is God and has always been with God and came out from God. God the Father is God and has always been God and God is Spirit and dwells in all true belivers as the Christ who is God. And God is one and if you do not understand this then i would not say you are not saved you just need to grow up.
Well, even though it has only been one day since I posted some comments, my point continues to be proved. That is – we are all convinced that we have a right understanding of the truth, even though there is a fair degree of difference between the ‘truths’ being expressed. Hopefully you will all agree that God’s Truth is not subject to variation, but is perfect and endures forever. If we stubbornly continue to push our version of the truth, when others have quite a different version, it would suggest that we are not approaching these discussions with any humility, or willingness to carefully weigh up what someone else is saying. This is not to suggest that you might not be the one who is right, but even if you are, you still need to be spending some serious time seeking God afresh about what others are saying. Its not about us – its all about HIM.
So what are some of the keys to knowing the Truth about God and His ways?
1.Our first priority must be – a strong desire to truly know God. Not know about Him, but know Him in a personal intimate way – His nature and character, His plans and purposes. It is a matter of relationship, rather than head knowledge. To know God is the essence of eternal life. ‘This is eternal life, that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.’ Jhn 17 v3. The most important aspect of eternal life is not that we have been redeemed, saved from our sins, and that one day we are going to Heaven – that’s just the entry point. The most important thing about this ‘eternal life’ that we have entered into by faith in Jesus Christ, is that we might know the Father and the Son in an ever increasing measure.
The lack of knowledge of God was a major issue with God’s people in the Old Testament. Check out these verses: Hosea 4 v1; 4 v6; 5 v4 and 5 v15 to 6 v6.
What about Paul’s emphasis on knowing Christ: ‘I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For His sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as dung, in order that I may gain Christ…’ Phil 2 v8. And the purpose of the main leadership gifts he says is: ‘for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ, until we all attain to the UNITY OF THE FAITH, and of THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. Eph 4 v12,13. Clearly we can’t have unity of the faith without unity in the knowledge of God.
How about these awesome verses from 2 Peter v2, 3: ‘Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, THROUGH the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of Him who called us by His glory and excellence.’ EVERYTHING we need for life and godliness! Wow, that sounds pretty awesome. And how do we get everything? Through the true knowledge of Him. This is of course a progressive thing. Nobody gets to know God in a matter of days. But the good news is that the more diligent we are in seeking to know Him, the more quickly will we get to experience the “EVERYTHING”
2. This leads us to the next key: we need to be diligently seeking God. We need to cultivate a hunger for more of Him – more of the Truth about God and His ways, coupled with a desire to walk in those ways. God has always delighted to reveal Himself to anyone who would seek Him with his or her whole heart. Psa 53 v2: ‘God looks down from Heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any that are wise, that seek after God.’ Psa 119 v2 ‘How blessed are those who observe His testimonies, who seek Him with all their heart.’ Read Prov 2 v1-10 and notice the growing intensity of the encouragement to search for the wisdom of God: if you receive…treasure up…making your ear attentive…inclining your heart…if you cry out…raise your voice…if you seek it like silver…and search for it as for hidden treasures; then you will understand…and find the knowledge of God. Such is the passion that our loving heavenly Father has for His children to seek Him and His Wisdom.
Father – give us ears to hear, and eyes to see, that we might know the Truth, and that the Truth will set us free.
I will pick up on this again another time with more keys to knowing the Truth. Until then – God bless.
Colin
Enough said.
Thank you all good bye.
Colin,
I agree with what you said, but let me add a little. The main problem that we have today is this>>>>
Judges 21: 25In those days [a]there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes.
Look what God says about this>>>>
Deuteronomy 12:8
You shall not do according to all we do here [in the camp] this day, every man doing whatever looks right in his own eyes.
Psalm 36:2
For he flatters and deceives himself in his own eyes that his iniquity will not be found out and be hated.
Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who listens to counsel is wise.
Proverbs 26:12
Do you see a man wise in his own eyes and conceit? There is more hope for a [self-confident] fool than for him.
God is not too pleased with people who live after this manner. But what did Jesus do?
Phil 2: 5Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]
6Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[b]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [c]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [d]or retained,
7But stripped Himself [of all privileges and [e]rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.
8And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!
Plus, we have the testimony of Jesus Himself who said that He never did or said ANYTHING except what the Father told Him to say and do.
My friends, if we are NOT doing the VERY SAME THING, we are NOT abiding in Jesus Christ.
We must come to the end of what we think is right and good and allow the LORD TO TELL US WHAT HE says is right and good. We must also remember that it was God, WHO ALWAYS DOES WHAT IS GOOD, who sent the Flood, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, sent Israel to Egypt for 430 yrs, all but destroed the Northern Kingdom of Israel, sent Judah in to captivity for 80 yrs, oh, and KILLED HIS OWN SON!
To think WE KNOW what is good and right is absolutely foolish and the above verses are not all the places that say that. Please, look them all up and see what kind of pronouncements the scriptures make against those who think they know what is right and good.
It began in Eden with Adam and Eve, deciding for themselves what they should and should not do. Unless we cease doing so, we remain in independence from the Lord and in sin!
It is ONLY when we stop trying to figure it out for ourselves and rely TOTALLY on the Lord to REVEAL His truth to us, that we have begun to be wise in HIS sight.
a bondslave in Christ Jesus
Amen…Bondslave. We have been bought with a price, we are not our own. We owe our life to the Lord.
“My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they FOLLOW ME.”
As Paul so beautifully said, “that I might know Him and the power of His resurrection”.
His name is “JESUS” and He shall save His people from their sins!
Because Jesus manifested the very nature/name of the Father Jesus was called the Christ. Our desire should be to see Jesus as He “IS” and then we shall be like Him and when we are, we too shall be the “CHRIST” in the earth (manifesting the Father in oneness in this earth in the NOW) which has been the Father’s plan from day one; that we might KNOW Him as in intimacy.
Savior’s (plural) shall arise on mount Zion!
Tyrone Palmer in regards to your comment on May 2nd 2010 about “One God in three persons and trinity.”
The word trinity is not in the bible but the reference to the three aspects of God is mentioned in many places separately. All three aspects of God are mentioned in three different scriptures:
2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may
give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
BB in regards to your comment on May 2nd 2010 about “prayer language a believer uses that he/she cannot understand,”
1Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the mind. 16 Else, if you bless in the spirit, he occupying the place of the unlearned, how will he say the amen at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you say? 17 For you truly give thanks well, but the other is not built up. 18 I thank my God that I speak more languages than all of you; 19 yet in a church I desire to speak five words with my mind, so that I might also teach others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
After I became a new Christian and filled with the Holy Spirit, I always had a strong sense that He was my “teacher” and I always referred to Him as such. I also knew Him to be my friend, so real, so powerful yet gentle. Always dependable, forgiving, loving me anyway. Definitely not an “it.” I never could explain this amazing “person” to my family, as they all thought of me as nuts. They have to experience Him for themselves.
The Lord is the Spirt and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. The Holy Spirit is the still small voice who reminds us of the love that God has for us and teaches us new things about ourselves and the Lord throughout our journey. He is our constant companion who never leaves us nor forsakes us through thick and through thin. He continually reminds us of the truth. It is His role to lead us into all truth. He loves the truth. He is the very image and representation of God and is the Spirit of Jesus. He lives within us. We received Him at salvation. Our body is His temple. The Kingom of God is within us because of His presence in our hearts. I have heard the Holy Spirit’s gentle, still small voice a number of times during my walk with the Lord and every time I hear His voice a burden lifts off me. I have heard other voices during my walk with the Lord but these voices have left me stressed, worried and concerned, those voices were not the voice of the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts His voice comes with peace because He is our comforter. Yes, His voice cuts between bone and marrow and discerns the very intents of our hearts but His voice comes with peace, with conviction yes, but with peace. Often when He has spoken to me I have broken down in uncontrollable deep weeping and have been physically unable to continue doing what I was previously doing. Sometimes His word has brought inexpressible joy where the understanding He has given me has elated me to such an extent that I can’t stop laughing with joy at the victory of the Lord. We know the Holy Spirit’s voice because He is not demanding or controlling and His voice does not bring fear. His role is to establish us in the truth and to set us free by establishing His truth in our hearts. We do not control the Holy Spirit. He will speak to us whenever He desires to speak to us in accordance with the Father’s will. We can never force the Holy Spirit to speak to us. Nothing we can do can make the Holy Spirit either speak to us or not speak to us. He will speak to us whenever it is the Father’s will for Him to do so. We can rest assured that He will speak to us whenever we need to hear His voice. We can trust Him that He will be there for us and speak to us when we need to hear from Him. I have recently come to this understanding after wondering for a long time why God didn’t answer my heartfelt questions within the timeframe that I thought He should answer them. The Lord showed me from Daniel 4 how Nebuchaddnezzar came to the place of understanding that the Lord does according to His will in the counsel of heaven and on earth no one can stay His hand or say to Him “What are you doing?”. I’d read this passage many times before but the Lord brought it to my heart and revealed that I was not God and as such had no right to demand that God speak to me or change me or do anything in my life in accordance with my desired timetable or programme. He was God, I was His servant. He knew what He was doing. It was my place to wait for Him. Yes, I am His friend but I am at the end of the day His servant, His bondslave. He cares for me but without Him I can do nothing. Like a weened child I am to wait for Him. I am not to demand, I am to wait. Part of my trust for the Lord is to wait for Him to change me, to wait for Him to speak to me, to wait for Him to empower me for service. Apart from Him I can do nothing. Those that wait upon the Lord shall gain new strength they shall run and not grow weary they shall walk and not faint. The understanding that He has given me has unlocked Jesus’ words where He said, “My yoke is easy and my burden is light” and “Come to Me, all you who are burdened and heavy laddened and I will give you rest”. He will perform His will through us in His own time and for His own glory. We have nothing to worry about. We will be blessed to see the result of His presence in our lives as He transforms us into His image. This gives us great confidence and assurance that we are His because only the Holy Spirit can create the character of Christ in our hearts. Only the indwelling Holy Spirit can take us deeper and deeper into the presence and likeness of Jesus. Thank You Lord. Thany You Father. Thank You Holy Spirit.
AW,
Those verses of scripture do not validate the false teaching of the ‘trinity’ nor ‘One God in three persons’. We can use scriptures to make a reference to any doctrine of man, but it still doesn’t make that doctrine true.
What I do see is the scriptures telling us that God is One.
Deut. 6:4 (NKJV)
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
1st John 5:7 (YLT)
“because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these — the three — are one;”
These scriptures tell me that God is ONE, and He is manifested (revealed) in three ways, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. We can either believe the written word of God or make something up to fit what we want to believe. Many professing Christians believe the teaching of the trinity because they have heard it for so long, but it is unfounded by scripture, like many other doctrines of man.
We shouldn’t add anything to the scriptures or take away from them, we should pray for revelation from God and ask Him to open our minds so that we can understand what is written.
God is Spirit, NOT a ‘person’ or ‘One God in three persons’.
John 4:24
“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Who’s words should we believe, God’s or man’s?
Tyrone,
There is much that we can learn from each other about the things of the Lord, and I hope this is what is happening via this forum. You have made some very pertinent comments about the baptism with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, and I am sure there are many who agree with you. On the other hand you have made some ‘challenging’ statements about the Trinity, which many, including myself would disagree with. And that’s OK, provided we keep an open heart, seeking to be led by the Spirit of Truth. Coming to a knowledge of the Truth about God and His ways is not an easy thing.
‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.’ Isa 55 v8,9. We get ourselves into difficulties when we try to ‘get our heads around’ the nature and ‘composition’ of God. We probably all know the Deut 6 v4 verse, and in fact the idea of ‘Trinity’ (three persons in one) does not stand in conflict with the oneness of God.
Just on the issue of God being a person – person does not mean human being as is thought by some. Person refers to personality, which God has plenty of I’m sure you will agree. That is the context in which the word is used in reference to God. Perhaps it’s a pity there is not another word in the English language that would be better to use. But the use of the word ‘person’ should be an issue if we understand why it is being used.
Back to Trinity. There are just too many scriptures that clearly indicate that there are three aspects to God, three separate functions for want of better words. I am English speaking from birth, but my knowledge of English words is not very broad. Sometimes I wish that I could come up with words which were perhaps more clearly descriptive of what I want to express, but I am what I am. The first chapter of Genesis gives us the first clue: v26 Then God said, “let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..” See also ch3 v22 & 11 v7.
Here’s another interesting way of looking at it – from a Bible Dictionary. “God as Creator thought out the universe, expressed His thought in a Word, and made His Spirit its animating principle…” Space does not allow for too much writing here, but if you get hold of a good Bible Dictionary you will find all the evidence you need for the Trinity.
There are verses in the NT that also very clearly highlight the existence of the ‘three’. Jesus always referred to His Father, who is of course God. In the Gospel of John, Jesus frequently said that He did nothing or said nothing unless the Father showed Him. If Jesus were the Father, He wouldn’t need to consult a separate part of the Godhead for His guidance. When asked about the end times, Jesus said, “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.” Matt 24 v36. Some things are reserved for only the Father to know, not even the Son. The Gospels are full of instances when Jesus refers to the Father as a separate ‘person’. E.g. Matt 11 v27.
When Paul is talking about the end times he says, ‘Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15 v24-28) Jesus is going to deliver the kingdom to God the Father (a separate person); then Jesus himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under Him, that God may be all in all. Surely this is clear enough.
The only difficulty that arises is what does Deut 6 v4 mean? Far be it from me to explain, for God’s ways and thoughts are soooooo much higher than mine – as high as the heavens are above the earth. Let’s not try and limit God to what our own puny little minds can understand, but rather open ourselves up to Him by seeking Him with all the diligence we can muster up.
Colin
Further to my comments on the 5th & 6th re “Keys to knowing the Truth”, I would add a third key, already briefly mentioned. That is to submit ourselves to the Spirit of Truth whom Jesus said would be sent by the Father to guide us into all Truth. See Jhn 14 v16, 17, & 26; 15 v26; 16 v13 –15. Whenever we come up against what we believe is false doctrine, we need to be taking time to search the Scriptures under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. A vital part of this process is to submit ourselves to His leading, laying down our preconceptions and the beliefs that we might have. Otherwise we are prone to search the Scriptures just to find verses to back our existing ideas. If we ‘lay down’ in the right attitude of humility and trust, there is no danger of being led astray. God will not allow that to happen if we come to Him genuinely seeking the Truth.
We have to acknowledge that our own natural heart is “deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” Jer 17 v9. Only God knows – “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Heb 4 v12, 13.
Sure we can listen to what others are saying, but at the end of the day we are held accountable for what we accept as the Truth, and for the way we have gone about seeking the Truth. My prayer is that God will give us a passion for knowing Him in a far more personal way, so that we might know His ways and live our lives accordingly.
Colin
Baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Sounds like three persons to me. How can God be a Father to himself, or a Son of Himself, without a division of personhood within His overall unity? And if the Father sends another counsellor when the Son returns to Him, again three persons are operating as one God. It makes sense for early theologians to come up with a word to express this amazing concept. Trinity.
I do not wish to be enmeshed in any disagreement about God’s
nature.
However, We find in Hebrews this statement>>>
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did [God] ever say, You are My Son, today I have begotten You [established You in an official Sonship relation, with kingly dignity]? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He will be to Me a Son? [II Sam. 7:14; Ps. 2:7.]
Heb 1:6 Moreover, when He brings the firstborn Son again into the habitable world, He says, Let all the angels of God worship Him.
Heb 1:7 Referring to the angels He says, [God] Who makes His angels winds and His ministering servants flames of fire; [Ps. 104:4.]
Heb 1:8 But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness).
I will NOT argue about this at all. I only will state quite clearly as these verses do that God the Father calls Jesus God and speaks to Him separately from Himself.
To say that ANY of us KNOWS God nature is the highest sort of Pride, Arrogance, and Presumption.
To say what the Bible says that God presents Himself as a multifaceted God would be absolutely accurate. However, no matter what anyone says nor what they believe, Oneness and TRINITY are BOTH man’s doctrines.
BOTH OF THEM!
Man is using these doctrines to describe God who is eternally infinitely, indescribable. It is an effort to define our existance and control what we THINK we can control. This again shows great arrogance and pride.
I KNOW I can say this>>>
Father God is God.
Jesus Christ is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
In some way they are ONE and that is beyond me or any other human to explain. To say there are only Three of them would be to limit God. In our experience, He has shown these 3 aspects of Himself, yet in the Old Testament, we are given 12 Convenant Names of God and each of them is different from the other although they are all a part of the ONENESS that is God.
Is God Triune? Yes, in a sense. But that word is not in the Bible and for us to say this is the way He is is once more arrogant and pride thinking we know the nature of God when He is in fact, utterly beyond us.
If you disagree with me, that is your perogative. We all have a right to be wrong. I have this same right to be just as anyone else does. But to argue over the unknowable is foolishness to the extreme and of course, there is always that pride and arrogance.
God bless you all!
a bondslave in Christ Jesus
Colin I too do not like to argue. I just would die and go to heaven if I could get people to understand church history and the formation of the Catholic church and therefore the formation of the doctrine of the trinity.
God says he is One so that is it. How it is done is beyond our pea brains but that is what He says so that is what I will say.
The first chapter of Genesis that you quote is Elohim and it does not mean several persons —that is added to the text. It does mean “plural of majesties”. Meaning to intensify, as it were and not a preexisting Christ. Or we have unbiblical doctrines to back that concept such as reincarnation etc…But to intensify as it were is how the Hebrew language does things. But to make it three– limits God and how about the manifestations in the OT as the burning bush, and all the other accts of His presence there? If we make Him dissected into 3 we need to go a step further and make him what divided into 50? He manifested himself in so many ways and continues in the NT dispensation. He is one God that has many hats and basically He made the world, us and all within He can do what He wants and we should just watch and observe and praise Him for all of it. I will stick to One God who does whatever He wants whenever He wants including manifesting Himself thru His own Son then on to sending a Comforter to do just that comfort.
But look at the first 3 councils of the formation of the Catholic Church and you will see clearly the formation of the doctrine as well as the coups etc…. So unless you are a Catholic what should you have to do with ANYTHING they would dream up? The church forefathers were demented minds at work and I spit it all out, thanks, for listening. AlamoAA
AlamoAA,
I find it interesting that Jesu sspoke to the Father as a separate person and the Holy Spirit as a separate person. God the Father spoke of God the Son as a separate person.
According to what you have stated about God being ONE, then we must also be God, for Jesus prayed that we be ONE as the Fathe and HE were ONE. And yes, He used the exact same language.
Stop trying to figure it out. We cannot comprehend God. All we can do is give Him our lives and submit to Him utterly.
I do know this>>>> Jesus is approached in one manner. The Holy Spirit in another manner, and GOD the Father in another manner that must be carefully done. I do not understand it all, I just know it to be true according to the scriptures and according to my personal experiences with each of them.
To me they are often separate and the same. How? I do not know, but they are. They are separately addressed. Yet they are one.
So is a husband and wife, yet they are two. The analogy just does not work. We cannot figure it out.
They are all God and they are different yet they are all God and they are ONE!
I believe this without understanding it all. I know it to be true and the scriptures all agree with everything I have said.
BUT to make Father, Son, and Holy Spirit one entity, is not scriptural. ALL of the verses that speak of God do not agree with that understanding. NEITHER does separate beings.
To attempt to say we KNOW and UNDERSTAND is once more, pride, arrogance and presumption. It is our attempt to control and limit God to some form that we can get our head around. But He is beyond that and for more majestic that we could ever begin to imagine.
I do not expect you to agree with me or for that manner for anyone to do so. I just happen to know everything I have stated agrees 100% with ALL of the scriptures. Saying God is ONLY ONE or God is THREE and being final about it does NOT agree 100% with all the scriptures. We can either accept God as He is, beyond our ken, or we can think we can control Him by our limiting Him to what we can figure out. That latter way, could easily lead to delusion and death.
May we all recognize our limitations and trust in HIM absolutely. I KNOW HE is God and worhty of everything I can give Him. Is that one or three? It doesn’t really matter and we cannot know it by what the scriptures actually state. He is that He is!
If you cannot agree to that, then you do not believe in the God of the Bible!
a bondslave in Christ Jesus.
(PS: I mean no offense here. just stating of the truth)
Wonderful words AlamoAA. The scriptures tell us the Word was with God and the Word WAS God, and the Word was manifested and dwelt among us.
John 1:1,14
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”
The Word never stopped being God, but the Word was manifested in the flesh and became the Son of God, who was given the name Jesus.
1st John 1:1-3
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us”
Philippians 2:5-9
“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross”
Jesus, who is the Word (God), was manifested in the flesh and made Himself of no reputation; He had all the powers of the omnipotent God but set aside His divinity so that God could reconcile the world back to Himself through His sinless sacrifice.
Colossians 1:15-17
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”
This scripture tells us that God is invisible (Spirit) NOT a person, and that Jesus is the image of God. All things in heaven and earth were created by Him, because He is the Word of God manifested in the flesh.
Look at Genesis 1:1-3
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.”
God’s Word and the power of His Holy Spirit brought the creation into existence; this same Word that created all things was manifested in the flesh and came into this world through the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Also the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is JESUS.
Jesus is the manifested NAME of the One True God, which is why we see the apostles baptizing new converts in the name of Jesus. They never baptized anybody in the three manifestations of God.
These scriptural truth’s did not come from me, nor was I taught it by man, but I received these revelations from God who dwells inside this earthen vessel by His Spirit. I pray that He will open the eye’s of our understanding that we may build one another up in love until we all reach the unity of the faith.
To God be the glory,
Tyrone
Tyrone, Alamo, Bondslave
Knowing the truth about the God I have trusted with my whole life FOR ETERNITY IS PRETTY IMPORTANT TO ME. It must be pretty important to God, too, since He COMMANDS us to love Him with all of our heart, mind, will, strength. Does God really require us to love Him blindly, without knowledge, truth, wisdom, insight, understanding? (Hmmmm…aren’t those words used to describe Himself to us?) Scripture admonishes us to avoid BLIND FAITH. God said He does not hide himself from mankind, He DESIRES to reveal His mysteries to us…….
WE are the ones who don’t really want to know the truth, because then we would have to GIVE UP CONTROL (which is only an illusion anyway!)
According to what I read in your comments, YOUR GOD DIED ON THE CROSS….THEREFORE YOUR GOD IS FINITE.
Sorry, but that kind of God is NOT BIG ENOUGH FOR ME TO TURN MY WHOLE ETERNITY OVER TO.
I EMPHATICALLY STATE THAT I WILL NOT WORSHIP A FINITE GOD.
God Himself states that because a man sinned against Him, a man’s life is required to pay the price for that sin. No god can satisfy that requirement!
That is why Jesus was called THE LAST ADAM…. The Jesus who died in my place is the GOD-MAN…He had 2 natures when He was born of human flesh…the Divine Nature and the perfect sinless Adamic Nature which died on the cross while limiting His Divine Nature to inaction during His 33 years on earth. ALL of His miracles were completed by the Power of the HOLY SPIRIT which indwelt Him and fille Him at His baptism.
See my comments from May 5th on “3 persons….1 eternal God”
If one does not WANT to believe, that person cannot be convicted nor convinced my mankind……THAT IS THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT….THE 3RD PERSON OF THE 1 ETERNAL GOD.
Happy Trails,
I never said we could not know about God, nor did I say we could not Him Himself.
But to know all about Him as so many think. They talk like they are the final word on the nature of God. That is impossible.
That is all I have said as some on this thread have basically stated that their idea is the correct one. I am pointing out that for us to say that, is pure pride, arrogance and presumption.
And it is.
If you think you can know all about God, that is your choice. I happen to know that is just not true. Even the cherebim that circle His throne are constantly being amazed by what they see in God. And we who have never seen Him without own eyes, think we know Him better.
Of course we do.
NOT!
If you cannot see this in what I have written, perhaps you need to read them again without pre-conceived notions and ideas.
a bondslave in Christ Jesus,
1st Cor. 13:8-12
“Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.”
Paul didn’t know everything either, and I surely don’t profess to know everything about God, I only speak what I have received from the Spirit and even that is in part!
1st Cor. 2:11-12
“For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.”
From my understanding on this issue, from reading the scriptures, is that you cannot have two types of Christians, those who have repented, been baptised unto repentance (Johns Baptism) and who have received the holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and those who haven’t. This is all part of the one process of being saved. I justify this in the following way with the following scriptures.
Acts 10. Cornelius was already a God fearing man, (without being baptised and being filled with the Holy spirit) if this was acceptable, why then did the angel of the Lord tell Cornelius to call for Peter who inturn was advised by the spirit to follow the men that Cornelius had sent. Peter had to tell Cornelius and his family about what had since happened since Pentecost and the new development in believing in Jesus. Then in V45 That household and those listening received the holy spirit and spoke in tongues. If it was acceptable to be a believer without this experience then why was it important that these events took place
Acts 11 V16 There was now a new requirement V16 that the Lord had said, that John baptised in the the holy spirit, (the baptism of repentance) but you will be baptised with the Holy spirit, and as above and in Acts 2v38 when this happened they received the holy spirit with the evidence of speaking on tongues, (Tongues is the key it opens the door to the holy spirit and the other gifts and fruits).
Acts 2 V4 All of them were filled with the Holy spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the spirit enabled them.
Acts 2 V38 When Peter was telling the folk “whom you crucified” they asked “what shall we do” (folk that obviously were not believers in Jesus and therefore an instruction for new folk to find Jesus) Peter replied ” Repent be baptised, everyone of you so that your sins may be forgiven and you will receive the the gift of the holy spirit, and as in V4 they would have then spoken in tongues as the evidence.
Therefor salvation
1) Repent, (turn away from ones past ungodly way)
2) Be baptised by fully emersion (Johns baptism of repentanceindicating a burying the old life)
3) But now there is one more thing that needs to be done to complete the process of salvation that is to receive the holy spirit.
He then says to SAVE yourselves from this corrupt generation, He has told this folk to Save your self’s do this. There no sign of the baptism of the holy spirit being an optional extra here, but now because of Christs crucifixion is a commandment to recieve it.
Acts 19: Paul finds some disciples and asks if they had received the Holy spirit since they believed, they had not they had only received Johns Baptism of repentance (points 1 & 2), as they had not or even heard of that there was a Holy spirit, he went on to explain that Johns baptism was a baptism of repentance and how John had told the people to believe in the one coming after him.
They were then baptised in Jesus as a result the Holy spirit came upon them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
If receiving the holy spirit was not a necessary part of the salvation pattern why then did Paul speak these words and why were the disciples being called by the spirit and going around educating folk in what was now a requirement due to the fact that Pentecost had happened.
Rom 8: Talks of life through the spirit (remembering that there is only one spirit and when that was initially given tongues was the evidence and key that opened the door to it). V9, And if anyone does not have the SPIRIT of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Pretty strong words, I know, but who wrote them, but it spells things out plainly. Remember scripture is there to enhance our growth and understanding to Gods word, it is not to take what little bits we like and apply to justify our own personal ideas and thoughts,
Rom 8 is TO BELIEVE IN CHRIST is to receive the Holy spirit, V26 Says that WE do not no how to pray but the spirit itself intercedes with groans that words cannot be express, The spirit intercedes for the Saints in accordance with Gods will. This is explaining the act of praying in tongues, how we pray from our heart, it one on one with God. He stresses that to be a Saint of God you are one who prays in the spirit, again confirming the above scriptures.
By the way Bob Manditch I liked what you said about the Holy Spirit and the feminie side, I have listened to something similar from Monica Dennington. It gives a new emphasis on things not normally heard off, but one should defiantly consider this aspect to enhance ones thinking.
To Tyrone
I was going to refrain from making any more coments on this thread but thought i would in your case.
The coment i would make is right on brother i have read your stament on the word of God and would encourage you brother because so few on this thread will.
You truly could not know the things you have written unless you really know Him and truly that is what salavation is about.
God sent His word to secure our salavation so that we might know Him i find so few that really do.They think they know what scripture says but they do not know Him.
I thank God for you brother.
And keep on speaking and saying what are Father is saying.
Please let me add this>>>
Peter spoke at the Council of Jerusalem when Paul and Barnabas came to ask about what they were doing and how the Gentiles were receiving the Lord. (Acts 15)
When Peter described what had happend at Pentecost to himself and the other apostles, he did not say a WORD about gifts, tongues, power or anything like that at all. He said something that is TOTALLY FOREIGN to what the vast majority of Full Gospel believers say. ( I refer generally to all groups who preach about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit)
Peter said the Holy Spirit came and CLEANSED THEIR HEARTS!
NOW, if we have TRULY cleansed hearts then we are in the same place as the apostles after Pentecost.
If we still have evil desires within, if our hearts are still divided between God and ourselves, our own desires & lusts, or anything in the world, THEN OUR HEARTS HAVE NOT BEEN CLEANSED and we have NOT received that which the first disciples received.
It does NOT matter if we have spiritual gifts. The corinthians had them and Paul called them CARNAL! So too, the Galatians had them and some knowledge, but their hearts were NOT clean!
Paul urged them both to receive the fullness!
The gifts are childish new believer things. The TRUTH of the matter is NOT speaking in tongues.
It is a pure heart, created in TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS and HOLINESS! If we do not have this NOW presently in our hearts, then we do not have what happened at Pentecost!
a bondslave in CHrist Jesus
There is a difference between “the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit” and being “FILLED with the Holy Spirit” (also known as “baptized with the Holy Spirit”) the word baptism is defined as … to be fully immersed. The indwelling happens once per believer…..at the time of salvation. Being filled with the Holy Spirit happens many many times…depending on if you WALK by the Spirit or WALK by the flesh…..walking by the flesh is walking in sin which quenches the Holy Spirit. Rom 8 and Gal 5
Being filled with the Holy Spirit is being FULLY submitted to His authority….which definitely manifests the Fruit of the Holy Spirit and the Power of the Holy Spirit always.
BUT NOT NECESSARILY THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT…BECAUSE IT IS AT HIS WILL THAT HIS GIFTS BE MANIFESTED.
1Cr 12:11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
Steve Grant…then how do the following scriptures fit into your scenario?
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.
For those people who thrive on tongues as a private prayer language…….how does a private prayer language line up with any of 1Corinthians 12? Which continually portrays the gifts of the Spirit are meant for OTHER PARTS OF THE BODY…..NOT YOURSELF.
1Cr 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
Is it possible that the “tongues” that we see in the modern church are “carnal”? and not of the Spirit of God?
CARNAL—The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
kar’-nal:
In the Old Testament there is an expression which indicates sexual intercourse shikhebhath zera`, “lying of seed,” (Leviticus 18:20; 19:20; Numbers 5:13). In the New Testament the words rendered “carnal” are derived from sarks, “flesh.” This refers to the flesh as opposed to the pneuma, “spirit,” and denotes, in an ethical sense, mere human nature, the lower side of man as apart from the Divine influence, and therefore estranged from God and prone to sin; whatever in the soul is weak and tends toward ungodliness (see FLESH). Thus one may be carnal (sarkinos), sold under sin (Romans 7:14). Christians may be carnal (sarkinos, 1 Corinthians 3:1; sarkikos, 1 Corinthians 3:3); the lower side of their being is dominant and not the spirit, hence, they fall into sins of envy and strife. The weapons of the Christian warfare are not carnal, not merely human (of the flesh the Revised Version (British and American), the American Standard Revised Version), but spiritual (2 Corinthians 10:4); “not after the law of a carnal commandment” (Hebrews 7:16); “The carnal mind is enmity against God” (“mind of the flesh” the Revised Version (British and American), the American Standard Revised Version, Romans 8:7). So, “to be carnally minded is death” (“mind of the flesh” the Revised Version (British and American), the American Standard Revised Version, Romans 8:6). There are “carnal ordinances,” in contrast to the spiritual ones of the gospel (Hebrews 9:10); “Minister unto them in carnal things,” those that pertain to the body in contrast to spiritual things (Romans 15:27; 1 Corinthians 9:11). The same expressions are elsewhere rendered “fleshly” (2 Corinthians 1:12; 3:3 the Revised Version (British and American) “hearts of flesh”; 1 Peter 2:11).
Is there any difference between sarkinos and sarkikos? The former more definitely denotes the material of which an object is made. It may express with emphasis the idea of sarkikos, the spiritual given up as it were to the flesh.
See MAN, NATURAL. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
For all of that knowledge, Happy Trails,
The question still remains>>>
Has our heart TRULY been CLEANSED TOTALLY?
If not, then until it is, we are NOT in the place the first disciples were.
a bondslave in Christ Jesus
To God be the glory David, i’m encouraged :-) The harvest of the Lord is near and soon enough the world will know who He has approved to work in His fields.
God Bless,
Tyrone
Good article Mr. Grady, but to me this is just Bible 101. But perhaps it is getting so bad out there in Christianity Land, that a basic teaching on who the Holy Spirit is, is necessary.
But why the heck are you still writing articles for that apostate magazine Mr. Grady?
That organization promotes the false system of Babylonian Christianity and panders to the unregenerated.
Why continue to taint yourself with them? Why not “come out ” of pseudo “Christianity” and “be ye separate” from the merchandizers of the gospel?
You did your time for 11 years there. Now you are free to drink and advance the gospel through clean and unpolluted water.Take advantage of that.
Why return to the pig trough?
Heidi,
It is my understanding that Grady resigned from his editorial position with Charisma. I assume his involvement now is merely as a contirbuting writer.
Personally I would have no problem with him continuing to write for them. If they are willing to publish him he should take advantage of that opportunity to write for an audience that needs to hear what he is saying.
What is the alternative? Writing for those who are in total agreement with everything he says and not getting the message to a readership that needs it?
For integrity’s sake Onesimus. It wouldn’t be that difficult to set up your own website separate from the charisma crowd. If people are interested, they will find you.
Having one foot still in the false camp taints you whether one admits that or not.
And to stay on at Charisma is still associating with them..”guilt by association”…even if you are not of their compromising caliber.
What Mr. Grady writes will probably have NO effect on the sell outs at charisma mag. Possibly a few readers here and there, but if people are reading that mag’s. material, they are already compromised in their belief system.
Heidi said:
“For integrity’s sake Onesimus. It wouldn’t be that difficult to set up your own website separate from the charisma crowd. If people are interested, they will find you.”
—-
How is this idea different to what the church has been doing for countless centuries? Locking away their message in buildings where those who are interested can wander in and participate while the people and places that need the message are avoided because of their association with sin.
If Grady (or anyone else) can get worthwhile articles published in a magazine wellknown for compromising the gospel then I thank God for giving them that opportunity of getting light into those places of darkness.
What is the point of Grady posting his articles on a blog only visited by the converted when he currently has an open door to preach where the sinners are?
I will not condemn a man for preaching where his message is most needed.
So many great thoughts. Thank you all. Yet, I have a question that I would truly like someone to answer and scripture would be necessary for me. Where does it say in scripture that we can’t truly know our Heavenly Father through our intellect? Not how “intellegent” we are or think we are but by intellect I mean our ability to think and reason. I realize we can know nothing but by His Spirit revealing and leading us into all truth. I have heard this phrase alot recently, “You can’t truly know God through your intellect?” I guess I just want to know what people mean when they say that.
Romans 8;7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God it is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be.
8; So then they that are in the flesh cannont plese God.
Your intellect is your carnal natural mind and for the most part this is how most think they know God.
Which is why there are so many vaired opinions. Truth comes through the mind of Christ. Putting on the mind of Christ is the only way to know God that is why He Christ is the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through Christ.
Most people believe Jesus died for there sins and know not much more then this.They do not know that He has come to live in them they think He will come some day to make all things better. He has already come and lives in all believers as the Christ of God. Gods word the Christ lives in are flesh just like He did in Jesus and that is how we are like Him because He is in us and there fore we are made new. And now we really do have the mind of Christ because what other mind would Christ have but His own.
Kathy,
Good question which would probably take some time to cover thoroughly. But to be brief now, I would say that our intellect does play a part in the process of knowing God, but it is a secondary part. On it’s own it can lead to a great diversity of opinion, as can be seen to some degree in this forum.
If we are using the ‘natural’ mind to try to understand the God whose thoughts and ways are as far above ours as the heavens are above the earth, then clearly we are going to fall well short. But it is also clear that God longs for us to ‘know Him’. That has been spelt out pretty clearly in this discussion.
One passage that might help you is 1 Cor 2 v9-14: But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”– these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Does this answer your question adequately?
Colin
Yes, that answers my question. Thank you guys!
Onesimus, that magazine has been judged and found wanting.
God is not in it.
God does not want a false representation of Himself.
Make excuses for it as much as you want.
Great comment Colin!
Heidi144…..Jesus prays for all followers in John 17.
Jhn 17:15 I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Jhn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Each should be led by the Holy Spirit as to where God wants us to be at any given time in our lives. Our INDIVIDUAL journeys may look alike occasionally, but not all of the time.
Let go of legalism…cling to the Living Word.
Sorry, I will say it plainly. It is compromise.
You can’t find pearls at a pig trough. Those “pearls’ get dirty engulfed in mud….even if they are pearls.
Chrismamag is apostate “Christianity” at it’s best….or I should say, at it’s worst.
People don’t need a false apostate magazine to tell them how to live, they need clean, pure uncontaminated water from an uncontaminated source.
Hanging out with the pigs, you turn into a pig.
But I guess if it pays well enough, it’s ok then….Not.
Heidi,
Readers of charisma are the VERY people who need to hear what Grady has been saying.
If he has to stand in a pig trough to get the message to the people who need it, and the owners of the pig trough allow him to stand there – then he should stand in that pig trough and give his ,message until he is no longer made welcome.
I recall that Jesus was criticised for hanging out with prostitutes and tax collectors. Did that turn Him into a prostitute?
Jesus didn’t align Himself with the pharisee’s and their false hypocritical ‘religion’. He didn’t work within the pharisitical, hypocritical organization in order to bring ‘reform’ from within it.
Neither did John the Baptist.
They both stood OUTSIDE of false religion and exposed the lies of it.
Charisma magazine promotes itself as a “Christian” magazine. It is anything but one, but a false representation of Jesus Christ and His message….a dishonest message at that.
Prostitutes and tax collectors are the “field’ whom Jesus went to, to bring them the good news.
He didn’t encourage them to join themselves to false religion.
Again, He was OUTSIDE of the false.
That’s why prostitutes and tax collectors were draw to him.
Because He didn’t have one foot in the false system and one foot outside of it.
He wasn’t a hypocrite and the people knew it.
Jesus also visited the homes of pharisees, ate with them and spoke to them IN THEIR HOMES.
If you have a problem with Grady’s message, if you think his message is encouraging people to “join themselves to false religion” then write about THAT.
But do not criticise a man for writing the truth in a place and to an audience that NEEDS the truth.
Wake up and smell the coffee Onesimus.
You’ve already been “had”.
Modern day “Christianity” has already been bought and sold and you are just (naively- or is it intentional?) buying into the false system of lies.
And Mr. Grady is just being used to keep that false “Christian machine” afloat. But collecting a paycheck while he’s doing it.
False Christianity is making it’s final move.The antichrist agenda rolls along at a faster pace and unfortunately, it appears you are still caught up in it and trying to defend it. It’s time to wake up before the midnight hour.
For your own sake anyway.
Remember, just because someone “says” they are a “Christian” does not make it so.
heidi
Preach it sister.
It’s time for the Pod People to wake up:
http://www.keeperofthevineyard.blogspot.com
It’s time for the Pod People to wake up:
http://keeperofthevineyard.blogspot.com/