LETTER TO a RELUCTANT PROPHET
-excerpts by Chip Brogden.
Dear Friend,
It is with a certain fearfulness that I respond to your inquiry, for I
am not an authority on such things. I can certainly relate to your
reluctance at being identified among the company of the prophets
when so many false apostles, prophets, and teachers abound.
I wish I could point you in a proper direction, but I can only point
you towards the Lord. It is He who selects His messengers, and
I have nothing to offer you by way of what to do.
At most, perhaps you can look upon me as an example of what
NOT to do, and take some word of counsel from a weak brother
who has made many mistakes and endured many failures along
the way. Perhaps you too will have to make even the same
mistakes in order to learn, yet following my advice could perhaps
help you to avoid the unnecessary heartache and cruelty inflicted
upon yourself and others when thinking that you are doing God a
service. I would counsel you, first of all, to be a Christian. Do not
spend too much time focused on that which is prophetic. Do not
come to others as a prophet, but as a child. Let Christ be your
obsession, not the prophetic word. For “the testimony of Jesus is
the spirit of prophecy.” There need not be turmoil in your heart
about your calling; it is clear that you are among those that are
“the Called, according to His purpose.” And what is His purpose?
That you be “conformed to the image of His dear Son.” That,
above all, is your first calling. Many are eager to wear the Prophet’s
mantle, but are reluctant to bear the Christian’s cross. This cannot
be. Given the choice between Christian or Prophet, choose Christian.
Serve God as the earthen vessel you are, in the place you find
yourself to be.
Perhaps the Lord will indeed use you in some prophetic way, but
if not then at least you have been faithful with the “one talent” you
have been given. God will not give five talents to those who cannot
be faithful with one, and will not give ten to those who cannot be
faithful with five. If you are a Christian first you will remember that
you should walk softly, with meekness and humility, while
esteeming others as better than yourself. Then the prophetic word,
when and if it comes, will be seasoned with the appropriate amounts
of mercy and grace.
Remember that without love you will inevitably become as
sounding brass – all judgment. If we cannot or will not stay in Love,
God will set out to humble us shamefully before our brothers and
sisters that we may know the depths of our hypocrisy and
self-righteousness. That is evidence of HIS great love for all of us.
Now, concerning the prophetic word itself. God will give you the
“what”, but the “when” and the “how” are left up to you. “The
spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.” You can be
right on target with the “what”, but if you screw up the “when”,
and especially the “how”, you do yourself and others unnecessary
harm. Jesus says, “Take my yoke upon you (this speaks of
RESTRAINT on the way WE want to go) and learn of Me, for I am
meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your souls.”
What then? He gives us liberty to speak, but allows us to suffer
for speaking out of ourselves. He bids us to be restrained, to take
our liberty and give it back to Him, knowing that we can do
nothing of ourselves. He does not force us to wear the yoke,
but invites us saying “take My yoke.” By giving up our freedom,
we will receive it again. No, we cannot just do what Jesus did,
because Jesus bore the yoke of His Father at all times. We
cast off the yoke so quickly. We are untrustworthy, but He is
faithful. Let us not just imitate Him, but let us learn of Him.
Let us not only be familiar with His Word, but let us become
acquainted with His Ways. It is not enough to memorize what
He said, we must take His yoke upon us and walk in tandem
with Him. Since Christ bids us to “learn of ME”, beware of those
who will try to gain access into your life with an inordinate desire
to mentor or shepherd you. We may certainly seek the advice,
prayers, and counsel of other mature believers. Even the little
children in the Kingdom of God can teach us much. But people
can only carry us so far, and there is a certain human pride
which results in the teachers trying to form the students into
their own image. This will not do. The Anointing, Who is the
Christ, will teach you all things. His Spirit will lead you into all
Truth. His grace is sufficient. There is no man or woman who
can give you anything apart from what you have already in
Jesus, for we have been “blessed with every spiritual blessing
in heavenly places in Christ”. Do you see dear friend, that God
is more concerned with the messenger than the message? Do
you see that the minister is more important than the ministry?
If the messenger is wrong, the message will be wrong too. If the
minister is wrong, the ministry will be wrong. And do you see that
the Lord of the work is more important than the work of the Lord?
Meditate on these things. There really is no famine of the Word
of God. If God is able to find the right vessel the Word will come
forth in abundance. Therefore, He takes much time to mold,
fashion, train, refine, purge, break down, build up, discipline and
create His prophets. Yield to that process. It cannot be rushed,
but it may certainly be hindered. We cannot force the Spirit, but
we may certainly quench Him. Ah, your gifts are given to you in a
moment’s time, but your fruit, your character, YOU, develops
over many seasons of God’s dealings. Do not be thrilled with
your gifts, only observe if you are fruitful in Spirit, bearing much
fruit, abounding in love, joy, peace, faithfulness, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, meekness, and self-control.You can be
sure that there are more gifted people in the world than you, yet
the fruit is what will remain when the gifts pass away. Never
neglect the place of abiding in Him, and you will remain a fruitful
branch in the Vine. Expect misunderstanding. Expect persecution.
Expect ridicule. Expect mistreatment. Expect suffering. Expect
rejection. Then, you won’t be surprised when it comes. And when
it comes, shut your mouth, go to the cross, and die so you can
live. Learn to kiss the hands that nail you to the cross, for as you
are decreased, He is increased. It is not a better living we need,
but a better dying. We cannot reach Pentecost but by way of
Passover. There can be no resurrection without a crucifixion.
There is no crown without a cross. To live, is Christ: to die is
gain. So if you want to boast, take pride in the things that make
you weak, for when you are weak, you are strong – in Him. Be
afraid of the praise and acceptance of others, for they are the
fertilizer for the self-important and grandiose thoughts that are
yours by nature anyway, which spring up in the shallow ground
of your carnal mind. Carry about the Death of the Lord so you
may have the Life of the Lord. Be ready to suffer with Him, that
you may reign with Him. And now, some practical advice: As
much as possible, stay away from money.
Freely you have received, freely give. Have no part in foolish
and unlearned questions, either in the asking of them or in the
answering of them. Give up your opinions and go to the cross.
Refuse to promote yourself, “your” word, or “your” ministry. If
God gives you something to say, let Him see to the promotion
of it. The loftiest spiritual service will never take away from the
most mundane earthly responsibility. Take care of your family,
your pet, your lawn, your business, your neighbor. Keep your
teeth brushed and your hair combed. Don’t be afraid to make
tents. If you want to eat, work. Be slow to anger and quick to
forgive. Before, you would never apologize even when you knew
you were wrong.
Now, be willing to apologize even when you know you are right.
This is my counsel, dear friend, and perhaps something I have
said in this brief letter will bear witness with you. With these
words then, I commit you to the care of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Who is able to complete the work which He has begun in you
and see you through to maturity, as you are rooted and grounded
in Him, being thoroughly equipped and strengthened by His
Might which works in those who have taken up the cross to
find power in weakness. – Chip Brogden.
-Comment on this article (even non-members can comment) at
the website below-
That is the best advice I have heard.
I think this advice is well-founded and much needed. I know that I have a prophetic calling on my life (have come to recognize this during the past year), and it is a very difficult thing to accept, grow in, and deal with. It is constant crucifying the flesh, constant learning, changing, and molding INTO HIS IMAGE and NOT MY OWN so that I CAN REFLECT HIM. This is Not an easy process, and to be honest it is Not the call I would have placed on my own life, and yet it is God that has chosen and God that calls and God that turns something so plain and ordinary into something so beautiful……For His Glory.
A most excellent reply to the question stated. Remembering that the gifts are for the advancement of the Kingdom and not the individual is of prime importance. Too many messengers are claiming credit for the message when it should always be “to God be the glory.”
Chip–All blessings in Christ. You have hit on the mark, true to the Word of God. We must decrease, Christ must increase. So many of us have ‘filters’ built into our minds by ungodly training and worldly ways the churches have adopted, that we sift all Scripture through these filters. I see and hear so-called ‘prophetic words’ by the hundreds, and yet hear so little of Christ. We seek the gifts, not the Giver, because we think we must gain significance by achievement, even in the Kingdom of God. Until we have, in simplicity, begun to obey Jesus’ simplest command: Love God and love one another; why would God pour out all kinds of other commands? We have the revealed will in the Word, and from the Lord Jesus’ lips now, and we aren’t obeying Him. What’s needed is to return to the Word, and a return to true discipleship that requires obedience. Jesus said, “You are My friends if you do what I command.” John 15:14. These commands are simple, not burdensome. We are to love Him above all, and love one another. From these things, by the fullness of the Spirit in us, He gives all other fruit.
Keep on learning, brother Chip. From another brother who is experiencing the cross daily, and learning to love Christ.
Gary Bixler
(I write in my blog as A. Brother, to stand against the current tide of ‘Christian celebrity’ culture.)
what an amazing word. it hit the mark and i am going to print it out and keep it in my bible.
how prophetic!
How I hate being a prophet, I tried for years to pretend I wasn’t; the life is hard, no friends who can tolerate this much knowledge in another? Please, never forget the prophet has no honor, anywhere, because no matter where you are it’s your home town. And the training is rigorous, No one can understand from the outside how difficult this is a prophet is put thru’ way more of a crucible than others are, except for maybe Apostles. I have a huge zeal for the Word, and it hurts me as I see others mis-use or mis-translate or just take it out of context. I pray every day Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace; where there is hatred, let me sow love; injury, pardon; doubt, faith; despair, hope; darkness, light; sadness, joy. Help me to console; to understand; to love, I plead with God for this because I don’t want the pointy finger of the cruel prophet. Nor do I want ever to be false.
Did you have to rub it in?
Some of the most prophetic people I have had the privilege to meet do not have titles and do not say “I have a word.” They serve – do and speak – as God directs. I’ve seen in their conversations with individuals and in addressing large and small groups, people hear the Holy Spirit through them — to amazingly specific detail. Be it affirmation or clarity to what God has already been speaking to them, encouragement, or even correction. They speak humbly and have the actions of service and faithfulness that go with humility. And those around them are always encouraged that they each can and should hear from the Lord directly.
Though many of them often speak in “church” assemblies, the vast majority of them are not on any church staff — but work in the marketplace — and have prophetic gifts in the market place; though in different detail than when they are equipping the saints.
In a parallel to “He who desires the office of a Bishop desires a good work;” they could not care less for titles, it is the work of serving, building up, and equipping others that they desire. And it all flows from their very close intimacy with the Lord. Besides humility the other common characteristic is that they thrive on solitude with the Lord and yet enjoy fellowship and being around people of all walks.
They have had impact on the direction of many churches — yet very few would know it — in some cases beyond the degree fo influence is beyond that which the formal leadership are aware. And they are NOT disrespectful of any church or leader. If something needs to be addressed, they go to those it concerns (I only know of these times because I was in the leadership or the leaders they needed to approach spoke about the blessing of it afterwards) – they do not speak critically of anyone to others.
Best I have ever read and so right. Touches to the very core of the heart and motives. Every believer should read this article. Thank you.
I am amazed at the amount of “Christians” I have encountered, in my forty six years of life in Christ, that have become so ‘spiritual’ that they have moved beyond the cross. We can never move beyond the cross. We are to take it up daily and follow Him.
Good word and true to the Word. Very wise counsel indeed.
Tony
Wow. I needed that.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what was meant by the responder’s statements “I hate being a prophet” and “the life is hard.”
Last fall I spent time in India with local church planters. Though it was encouraging to see the signs and wonders and hear the prophetic; it was not really about the signs and wonders; but about Christ building His Church. And the power and love of God in their lives is wonderful. They face horrible persecution, they have lost their goods, been ostracized by family, often misjudged by some more traditional or western Christians, forfeited business, been beaten; within three months of our meeting two of them were martyred — others were killed recently – harder yet is when they lose spouses or children. Yet their joy is over the top. They love the Lord and want nothing else then what He has called them to do – yes they get discouraged and fearful — there were times of shell shock, especially after the massacres in Orissa; but they sincerely see it as a privilege to pay the price to serve the Lord. Some have gone into areas where there are no other Christians within a day (or more) journey (and these are rough journeys – talk about feeling alone).
This is not to downplay their sacrifice or our responsibility to support them; rather we in the west need to be careful about what is meant by “life is hard” and remember the joy set before us — an the joy we get experience with the Lord Jesus Christ even here and now.
I must agree wholeheartedly with Brother Chip but, I would like to add one small piece of information.
As I read the letter my mind went to Elijah and Elisha. The young prophet in training left everything he had or was behind to follow the older prophet. We need to understand this must be the way we follow Christ. Not just church services and Bible studies but a daily walking with and learning from Jesus and His Word. Elisha walked with Elijah until the end and received his desire for a double anointing of the office of the prophet. May we all walk with Jesus until it is our time and allow Him to teach and anoint us.
One other thought. Please be careful about deciding your calling is the office of a prophet. I was once told I was a prophet with no mercy. As it turned out I am simply a person who sees no gray areas, no situational ethics and from time to time God gives me a Word of Prophecy. My gift and calling is as an Evangelist but as I spend more time walking with and learning from Christ, He trusts me with more. You can, from time to time be given a Word without occupying the office of a prophet.
Be very careful, if you call yourself a prophet and you miss it God will forgive you but there will be people, Christians, who want to stone you.
Many Blessings,
Dr. Clyde
Loved it. I especially liked the comments from many of these other brothers and sisters. “I hate being a prophet” – boy does that ring true. Everybody wants to be an Elijah, but nobody wants to pay the price.
And titles – Ugh! If you have true power in God, believe me you don’t need a title to sound the trumpet before you. I run into so much of this in Africa where everybody has to have a title because that’s what they have been taught from America. And it has become a function of a “tribal chieftain mentality”. But Jesus said, “…and all ye are brethren”.
I have one guiding principle that keeps me focused: The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not about YOU. It is about others, others, others. If you don’t get this, you will never understand the Cross. Let that guide you and let God worry about the details … including the prophetic calling on your life.
Very important word for the times we are in. Learning to walk in the spirit and considering others better than ourselves as well as admitting our wrongs even when we may feel right! Amen, Lord help us get there.
Brother Steve D.
I believe the starement about the life being hard may have referred to the fact that many Christians will persecute men and women who are preceived as prophets. Some because they do not want to face the truth and some because they do not have a forgiving heart if the person makes a mistake.
Life being hard is always a preception and determined by what we live and walk in daily in our lives. People from the area you are speaking of would say the people in our own Appilachian mountains have a good life. We in America look at their situation and say they have a rough almost unbearable life. It is all in how we preceive it and that is, unfortunately, determined by what we have lived in and experienced.
Brother Dale,
Thank you for reminding me that our gifts and callings are not for our benefit but for the benefit of others.
Thank you for publishing this exquisite wisdom of our Lord Yeshua and thank you Chris for giving to the Lord
Brother Chip,
Very good advice! We must always point to the cross of Calvary and the redemptive work of our Lord Jesus. God will always equip us as it is needed for the edification of our fellow saints. Stay in the Word brothers and sisters and pray, pray, PRAY! Always focus on the Giver and the gifts will come when needed. Always covet the gifts of wisdom and discernment, for these are gifts that are sorely lacking in the body of Christ!
Wonderful word, so convicting!! Straight from the word of God.
In my 30 plus years in prophetic ministryI have heard some things that are accepted as truth, but really are not in the Word.
Such as “seek the giver, not the gifts.” The Bible teaches that we are to seek the gifts also, especially the gift of prophecy, because of its ability to edify, exhort, and comfort.
I have also heard that prophecy only confirms of things that you already know. The very nature of prophecy makes it speak of future events. A reading of the Bible will confirm this, and the Holy Spirit speaks to us of things that are o come.
I am in no way speaking harshly, just hoping to shed some light on he gift of prophecy. I know so little about the gift and the office of prophet, but I am in the Word trying to understand the beauty and power of this gift.
Prophecy is such a wonderful gift along with the word of knowledge. It has the ability to change the course of individuals and nations.
I am ashamed of those who call themselves prophets and apostles, but who prophesy contrary to the Word and nature of the Holy Spirit. Lakeland exposed some of them in a big way.
I try to be careful in judging false prophecies and prophets,knowing that I am capable of the same thing.
A false prophet lacks the character of Christ and almost always seeks after money and fame.
God help us
Wise words indeed! I particularly like these words:
“If the messenger is wrong, the message will be wrong too. If the
minister is wrong, the ministry will be wrong. And do you see that
the Lord of the work is more important than the work of the Lord?”
This is the kind of teaching that settles our heart and ‘sits’ so well in our spirit. There is no doubt about the Source of inspiration of this message.
Well worth reading and very encouraging. We need to remember that there are other reasons people can find us annoying that are nothing to do with God’s call on our lives- e.g. self righteousness, hypocrisy and pride.. In regard to titles and being quick to call yourself a prophet I love the words of Amos..”I was neither a prophet or a prophet’s son,but I was a shepherd,and I also took care of sycamore fig trees. But the Lord took me from tending the flock and said to me “Go prophesy to my people Israel” True prophecy belongs to the Lord and He can use the next person as easily as us if He chooses.
Chip..This is right on! I agree with this so so much in my spirit. So many people want the gifting but do not want the character. The fruit of the spirit… The only way we get the fruit is through the trials. The cross is the message of the Gospel.. I am so in agreement with this. I have been called into ministry and so so many in the body want what others have. Jesus calls and knows who can carry the “bag” perse’ I pray that many others start to see that character and being a Christian is more important than any gift or office. We who live Godly will suffer persecution . If we can get to the root.. our faith then we will have the fruit. Jesus is so so clear about our heart conditions in any use of a gifting. To me the beatitudes teach us what ministry is about..
Matthew 5:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 ¶ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Blessings
In JESUS
Frannie/Hopeismercy….
I liked the article. A lot of sound stuff. I thought his advice to apologize when you are right seemed a little too far. I guess I’ve just seen false apologies and false humility in my own church setting; I may be going too far in the other direction, though, I don’t know. Any thoughts? I think false humility is more dangerous than outright pride.
Brilliant word, like a ‘chip’ of wood from the cross itself…
…but I must diligently seek Jesus that it doesn’t remain ‘out there’ but Holy Spirit in me, use this word of Jesus to shape me…
Do I apologise when I am right? almost never… I have problems seeing this as honest, Lord, help me please.
He once said to me “If you don’t do anything more for me I wont love you any less…
It is about Him not about our doing…
The nature of the faith we have is the ability to believe that He can create something out of nothing, this is the cross, I become nothing so that He can do something. Romans 4:17
AMEN!
By the way, I have previously posted as Thos. and have decided to use my real name from now on…
Fabulous, I want to meet this man
Spot on.
Amazing.. as soon as I read the title my heart jumped into my stomach… thankyou so much for this most needed instruction at the very best time possible.. a real word in season. I believe God is raising up men who are not afraid to speak His voice and heart, but first we must totally surrender our own. Living in Northern Ireland God has been showing me amazing things and sharing his heart with me, much Idolitry and sheep with out a shepherd in my home land, But yes thanks for this message, I pray that God will strengthen you all with might in the inner man so Christ may dwell in yours hearts by faith. I was recently prayed over and the word was that I am to speak Only Gods word… this “prophet” calling is all knew to me (a year or so) and maybe i am green to all this but If God has called us then by his grace may we die to self and speak the word of truth with no thought for the cost to ourselves… and may we as our dear brother has so lovingly shared with us Know our God and firstly seek by faith to be a Christain with out blemish. oh and thankyou for this site and for being able to read all the replies, i have been so encouraged and grateful to God for you all and dont feel as lonely in my calling… if that makes sense:) may we all be In Christ and remain there. Chris
This is great and it comes just at the right time. How often have we cried out to our Lord “What is wrong with me, Father” I have no friends, no money, my kids ignore me and my grown kids don’t want anything to be said to them . I feel like I am going no where and don’t know anything anymore.I feel like no one wants anything to do with me and they all act like I have some kind of disease that is catching. I have been shunned, kicked out of groups, phone calls not returned e-mails and cards go unanswered, I have forgiven, said I forgive and yet there is never an acknowledgment , just a turning of their backs and when I do think something is not biblical and right in the Lord’s eyes, I am told , get a life and think out of the box., get high I Jesus and rejoice w/ dancing. ——- Yet somehow doing that, just doesn’t compute. The only safe place is at the alter of the Lord’s feet crying out to HIM for peace and understanding.
Well today, I am again thankful for a timely word and such encouraging words of wisdom. Thank you.
Thank you Chip for another of your precious gems.
I praise God for you, and for other men like you who are few and far between, who seek and speak the truth, confirmed by the Scriptures and by the Holy Spirit. I praise God for the simplicity and purity of your teaching, and I pray that many will be blessed by your ministry. Thank you for being a part of my life for quite a few years now….I thoroughly recommend to all that they look at “TheSchoolOfChrist.org” for more of Chip’s wonderful teachings, and for his daily devotional.
I pray that my life will be all that he spoke of in this letter. I pray that I will only be known by Christ in me, and that I will die daily to self so that He may be seen in me, and my fruit bring glory to His wonderful name. I pray that the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart will be acceptable to Him, and the love of God will be seen and known in all that I do and say. I pray this for ALL my brethren. I pray that each will grow in his or her giftings, and that the gift of prophesy will be exercised, pointing only to Christ, for only His glory.
Thought some of you may be interested in this:
Chip Brogden http://theschoolofchrist.org/about
Good word Clare, It always must point back to Jesus and His Glory.
The “when” and the “how” often come by trial and error .. we must all push in and know our Lords voice and the Holy Spirits promptings.
This advice is very timely for me
Thank you johnthebaptisttv
St. Patrick’s Breastplate is contained in the ancient Book of Armagh, from the early ninth century, along with Patrick’s authentic “Confession.” St. Patrick is said to have written this prayer to strengthen himself with God’s protection as he prepared to confront and convert Loegaire, high king of Ireland. I see in it some similarities to Paul’s exhortation to “put on the whole armor of God” (Ephesians 6:10-18), except that it is much more detailed. I recommend St. Patrick’s prayer to you as a wonderful prayer of spiritual preparedness.
I bind to myself today
The strong virtue of the Invocation of the Trinity:
I believe the Trinity in the Unity
The Creator of the Universe.
I bind to myself today
The virtue of the Incarnation of Christ with His Baptism,
The virtue of His crucifixion with His burial,
The virtue of His Resurrection with His Ascension,
The virtue of His coming on the Judgment Day.
I bind to myself today
The virtue of the love of seraphim,
In the obedience of angels,
In the hope of resurrection unto reward,
In prayers of Patriarchs,
In predictions of Prophets,
In preaching of Apostles,
In faith of Confessors,
In purity of holy Virgins,
In deeds of righteous men.
I bind to myself today
The power of Heaven,
The light of the sun,
The brightness of the moon,
The splendor of fire,
The flashing of lightning,
The swiftness of wind,
The depth of sea,
The stability of earth,
The compactness of rocks.
I bind to myself today
God’s Power to guide me,
God’s Might to uphold me,
God’s Wisdom to teach me,
God’s Eye to watch over me,
God’s Ear to hear me,
God’s Word to give me speech,
God’s Hand to guide me,
God’s Way to lie before me,
God’s Shield to shelter me,
God’s Host to secure me,
Against the snares of demons,
Against the seductions of vices,
Against the lusts of nature,
Against everyone who meditates injury to me,
Whether far or near,
Whether few or with many.
I invoke today all these virtues
Against every hostile merciless power
Which may assail my body and my soul,
Against the incantations of false prophets,
Against the black laws of heathenism,
Against the false laws of heresy,
Against the deceits of idolatry,
Against the spells of women, and smiths, and druids,
Against every knowledge that binds the soul of man.
Christ, protect me today
Against every poison, against burning,
Against drowning, against death-wound,
That I may receive abundant reward.
Christ with me, Christ before me,
Christ behind me, Christ within me,
Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ at my right, Christ at my left,
Christ in the fort, [i.e., at home]
Christ in the chariot seat, [i.e., travelling by land]
Christ in the stern. [i.e., travelling by water]
Christ in the heart of everyone who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks to me,
Christ in every eye that sees me,
Christ in every ear that hears me.
I bind to myself today
The strong virtue of an invocation of the Trinity,
I believe the Trinity in the Unity
The Creator of the Universe.
I enjoyed this article and strongly believe the following to be extremely relevant for the contemporary church.
“Teacher, we want to see a sign from
You.” But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign
will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. (Matthew 12:38,39 NKJV)
When we start looking for God to do some “New Thing”, some “thing” not revealed to us in
the scriptures, we are setting ourselves up for a strong delusion and giving place to the Devil! The
scriptures are clear – God has in these last days spoken to us through his son Jesus Christ. Since the
canon of scripture was completed with the inspired writings of the Apostles of our Lord, there has
not been, and will not be, any “new” revelation by God. The Bible makes this perfectly clear, with
warnings in the beginning, middle, and end of the scriptures – warnings against taking away from or
adding to the revelation of God to man contained in the Bible:
“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away
from it.” (Deut. 12:32 NKJV)
“Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him; do not add to
His words, lest He reprove you, and you be found a liar.” (Proverbs 30:5-6 NKJV)
“For I testify to everyone who heard the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds
to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes
away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of
Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Rev. 22:18-19 NKJV)
To these I could certainly add Isaiah’s admonition, “To the law and to the testimony! If they
do not speak according to this word it is because there is no light in them.” And many others.
The point is that if God gives any revelation to men today that revelation will line up perfectly with the
revelation He has already given “once for all” in His word. If it doesn’t then it is not from God. This
hunger for a “new thing” or “new revelation” reminds one of the pagan philosophers that Paul encountered
on Mars Hill, and the early Gnostic heretics:
“ For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either
to tell or to hear some new thing.” (Acts 17:21 NKJV)
I really like this statement:
“There need not be turmoil in your heart
about your calling; it is clear that you are among those that are
“the Called, according to His purpose.” And what is His purpose?
That you be “conformed to the image of His dear Son.” That,
above all, is your first calling.”
Amen! Also along these lines is what Jesus said to his disciples who came back all excited and impressed with themselves (not condemning here but empathizing with the human condition) because the demons were obeying them and Jesus said (paraphrasing), “Don’t rejoice because the demons listen to you, instead rejoice that your names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Whew, that kind of helps to keep everything in perspective and should encourage sober-mindedness, great gratitude and humbleness of heart!
As someone who is not a prophet, but was searching for a way to delineate false prophecy from the true, here is a little gem that seems to get at the crux of the matter:
2Pe 1:21 “For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”
Really great article- it spoke to me deeply. God save us from performance and man-pleasing church.
May I give my heart to You alone and selflessly follow You.
Great comments too. I must check out some of Chip’s teachings.
It is Christ, Christ, Christ. But we are to be ourselves as well, not clones of someone else.
Awsome word. Thanks so much!
Great word. I liked especially the part about we are to be comformed to HIS image. We aren’t to be getting our ID’s from our gifts but from the gifter—JESUS….i am not a apostle, prophet, giver, teacher, etc…..i am a son of God because God had mercy and sent his Son. In the world people get their ID’s from their jobs. the church does the same(comformed to world standards); in the bk of Jh ch 3 it tells us God gives His spirit without messure. God doesn’t give out his spirt to swine, but to those that are comformering to the image of Christ. limiting oneself to only prophet is sad. God wants to pour out His spirit w/out measure….that means all the gifts. God didn’t sent prophets to save people in bk of Judges…he sent delievers. David was a warrior/worship leader not prophet. Did Elijah only go around talking,,,,talk is cheap….he did things….todays prophets talk with no actions (bk James actions). Our job duties as told by Jesus cast out demons, preach, heal(not pray) the sick, raise the dead, cleans leapasy(unhealable sickness of the day) that was in Matt 10:8; Matt 28, then done in Acts; by Paul then 2Tim 2:2 …….Psych(1-900 #’s talk.) true followers of Jesus do the word. the church in mid 80′s read Ep 4 where Paul states God has put in the church 1st apostles, 2nd prophets,……then all of a sudden everyone became a prophet…..and forget about being comformed to the image of Jesus…………Jesus never went about telling people he was the son of God ….he show by doing the deeds…..we need to get back to doing the deeds that the world can labels us christ-like(christians) and not we needing to tell them Jh 13:34/35
Thank you for Chip’s word…..the last 6months some of words posted i haven’t forward….flesh/spirit mix….this was a 100% God word
Where, in the Bible, did Christ apologize for being right? Ditto for other prophets of the Bible.
Where, in the Bible, was Christ only given the “what” but not the “when” and the “how”? Ditto for other prophets of the Bible.
Since when is the the worship of spirit and truth needing to apologize, or short on “when” and “how” instructions?
That Brogden’s post seems cogent to minds reading it, flabbergasts me. It is full of jabberwocky, gobbledygook and gross illogic, as noted above.
One thing I agree, “If the messenger is wrong, the message is wrong too,” in this instance.
You can’t break the message of Christ, and give Christ’s message.
Christ spoke “what, when, where, how” Father wanted, and so can even Brogden, and his readers, if they had faith to not be so stupid.
Then Brogden wouldn’t have a confused mind, which is not the mind of Christ. Then Brogden wouldn’t have to apologize for speaking truth, something Christ did not do.
Brogden, and those whose minds followed such rubbish, repent and reset! Have faith in Higher Ground, which is foreign territory to gobbledygook perveyors.
Seek Higher Ground. Have faith for it. This is a wake up call, folks.
I think that my problem is that I used to love to prophesy – and now I’m starting to understand that those who love it (prophesying) are not ready to be used in prophesy.
True prophecy is awesome and edifying. Sadly the Christian environment is strewn with testimonies of abuse. It does more damage than good. I have enough personal experience and testimony in this regard. I have enough testimony of manipulation through “the Lord showed me…” approaches.
Brogden’s post is certainly a sound word of caution. I do not experience it at all as an admonition to discard the gifts of the Holy Spirit. But I have no doubt that too many people come, and in all sincerity, present their “prophetic utterance” against the background of their own theological bases and experiences (remember there are 38000 or so denominations in the Christian world). The differences in descriptions of sincere people who “have been to hell or heaven” underlines the sadness of the foundational backgrounds against which such descriptions/testimonies are given (I am not questioning the sincerity of their visions, only the deliverance).
I can show written prophecies by men of considerable stature in Christendom that are clothed in such “round terms” that it is almost impossible for it not to “come to pass” – almost like the newspaper horoscopes. The prophets in the Biblical record were straight and to the point.
Years down the line I am,for example, still waiting for a well known prophet in the USA’s prophecy of Osama Bin Laden’s capture within 35 days to come true.
First, my apology to Andrew concerning comments on legalism, stating that he didn’t have the correct understanding on holiness, and also about naming a website after John the Baptist. I don’t think those two statements were all that helpful. God bless you, Andrew, and the work you are doing here at this site. I pray you will have a great part in the coming Outpouring of the Spirit. There will be plenty for all of us to do, who embrace this great Visitation.
Chip’s article was worded correctly. The Prophet’s call and molding process is the most difficult to endure. The Potter’s Wheel is necessary in order to bring forth the finished product for that special work prepared for the Prophet. Waiting upon the Lord in prayer and intercession, in the meanwhile, can be fulfilling to the one who knows his imparted vision of ministry is yet for an appointed time.
Timing is an all-important element, especially for the Prophet who will be used of God to bring revival to His Church. Moreso, if a Prophet is given the spirit and power of Elijah to not only bring in a revival, but a restoration back into the House of God. It’s timing. And one cannot convince God to hurry up and get this done.
But, the day is fast approaching for the release of the Prophets to go forth with a message of repentance to the Church. They will have been prepared to be rejected by many. But woe to the ones who reject God’s warnings to His People, and walk out on His Visitation. And woe, especially to the ones who oppose the one who has been anointed with the spirit of a John the Baptist or Elijah. It will be Ichabod for those. That’s why I said in another post, we need to be careful what we associate John’s name with.
Just as John the Baptist declared the coming of Messiah, prepared the way, and introduced Him to Israel the first time, just so will he come again in a Prophet in our day, and prepare the way for the second coming of Christ, with one of the greatest revivals ever, that will culminate in the Appearing of the Lord to catch His People up to Himself. It will be a restoration. That is the Elijah Ministry.
So, take heart Prophets of the Most High, who stand before the Lord of the whole earth. Your day is upon you to come forth and take your place and begin to speak Thus saith the Lord! You shall be ready! Amen.
Absolutely beautiful, encouraging, and edifying!
Thank you for that word.
I am so thankful for your ministry and this website. God has used you and the many post to steer me out of Dangerous and deceptive waters. And it has brought comfort and correction to me as well. Thank you:)
The Elijah ministry for this day is to prepare a people for the coming of Christ in you. If you continue to look in the sky you will miss what our Father is doing in this day. Gods desire is to be seen in His people Christ in you is the hope of Glory all else is false prophecy.Are Father is raising up a people in this day that are not waiting to go to heaven they will bring heaven to the earth because they will be filled with the power and the glory of God just as are leader JesusChrist was. In fact this is all about God as Father we are not here about Jesus He was and is the way to know God as Father. Jesus was always pointing to God as Father and said do not worship me worship God. In that Day I wont ask the Father but you will. It is time for the Church to Grow up and stop acting like step children we are through Christ in us the Children of God just like the captain of are salavation Jesus Christ. There is a remnent that will stand up in the power and the glory of almighty God and all the world will know that the God of Heaven and earth is walking in flesh and blood and He is a mighty God. The Elijah ministry is bringing jugdment to the apostate church system even at this moment all those who believe the lie that your reward is in heaven and not in Christ now. Jesus said many will say look here look there do not believe them the kingdom of God is in you if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. You will do all that i did and more because i go to the Father and He is greater then i. He went on to say and i will be in you. Stand up and believe the truth. And i got news for you i will not be sorry for any thing i have said or will say we have been sorry for to much stand up and see that our God is a mighty God .My bible says that Christ is the spirit of prophecy for to long has his church been silent being made to believe that only the pastor or some bible school prophet has the words of God.
If you have been born again stand up and say what are Father gives you to say if you have Christ in you then you have the word of God in you it is time that all of Gods children would stand up and be the church and not just a few who some how think they are special. I will tell you the only one who is special is Gods Christ and if you have been born again that is you and not just the few.
Amen, David! Amen!
Again I say,Brogden IS WRONG TO APOLOGIZE FOR TRUTH, and he is also WRONG TO say God’s “when” and God’s “how” are left to you. God tells you the whole thing, if you have faith….. if you have correct Spirit and Truth worship.
Deeply and Disturbingly Brainwashed
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 5/20/10
Revelation 22
The Body of Christ has been,
Deeply and disturbingly brainwashed,
To believe wildcat doctrines,
NOT: Jesus comes quick once ego’s tossed!
BUT: Jesus does come quick in you and I,
IF: we honor purely seen in each other,
GOD’S SON: come quick in saints of us,
AS: we honor saint sister and brother!
But the brainwashed will honor,
Nothing beyond their sad, sorry egos,
That’s two-thousand years’ history,
How brainwashed church’s story goes!
Now comes In That Day enlightenment!
Increased God-intelligence on the march!
Bridging the gap between ego‘s error,
God, come in man, thru His Son’s great arc!
Thus, we are deeply and disturbingly,
Brainwashed no more!
But we wonder, What in the heck is our,
Same old church for?
It is now for great repentance,
Repentance deep and wide!
For their millennia brainwashing,
And keeping Christ outside!
Repent, oh brainwashers,
Repent for a long, long season!
And Christ will come in you,
And with Christ: long absent reason!
That’s what’s happening,
In That Day,
Like it or lump it,
Hear God’s say.
Amen!
Wonderful Admonishments
“For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.” Romans 8:15
Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING
Love, Your Brother Joe
“Now also when I am old and grayheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come.” Psalms 71:18
Praise God David, for the Father is pleased to give His children the kingdom.
Luke 12:32
“Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.”
Luke 17:20-21
“Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Soon the Lord is going to send out His apostles and prophets in these last days and they will walk in the resurrection power of Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit. The blind will receive their sight, the lame will walk, the sick will be healed, the dead will be raised, demons will be cast out, and the gospel (good news) of the kingdom of God will be preached in all the world as a witness and the Lord will save a great multitude through His chosen vessels.
The harvest is near!
Wow! That article should be written on the walls of every charismatic church!
In That Day Unbound
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 2/3/10
I see a day coming,
When American Christian are free,
Coming days of La Mancha,
Without rapture-prosper-slouch, we see!
Instead of zombie eyes and zombie lies,
People bring out God in each other!
Instead of zombie leer and zombie fear,
People honor God in Christ’s brother!
I see a day coming,
When the children of our children laugh,
At their grand folk’s blindness,
And the expense of a century’s blind bath!
Christians generally blind,
To hidden progressive socialism for a century,
Because at church behind,
In fear, greed and slouch from Satan’s doxie tree.
Some rock and roll more pure,
More true in spirit than wispy praise,
That mesmerized millions,
Hypnotized in dark-art, one-chord craze.
I see dust-and-ego-fed sheep,
Discovering high alpine green pastures!
Some sheep even sprout feathers,
Flying high: screaming eagle go-getters!
This, in relative penury and obscurity,
I see,
Damn me or bless me for seeing this freedom,
I weep.
I weep! I wail! I howl!
For blind wolves eating sheep unawares,
I see! I see! I see!
I refuse to believe: Nobody cares.
Then freed up, I see children playing,
I hear women laughing out loud,
Then freed up, I see men folk singing,
Their spirit and truth makes me proud!
In the movie, Guys and Dolls,
Frank Sinatra works on Marlon Brando a conning trick,
Crediting his father, Brando,
Sees through the wile, forgiving, that nothing stick!
Wolf-shepherds now provide,
An endless river of conning tricks,
To imbibe the great lies,
Of fear-greed-slouch chow, a maddening mix!
Behold, God can’t come quickly,
And live in such sheep inside!
Not when blind wolves in the ditch,
Take the unbeknownst for ride!
Yet given truth and right spirit,
The good ship Christianity can turn around,
Imbued quickly at once at last,
God lives in man, man lives in God unbound!
First. What is Prophecy and how does at operate in the Church ?
It is one of the Spiritual voice gifts. The gift of tongues followed by interpretation is equal to it.
It is for the exhortation and building up of the church, in Love.
In the Lord’s Church, where the saints of God are , the Spirit filled are, it will be used decently, in order, and encouraged.
It is Supernatural, Inspirational, it is “subject to the prophet” (get that you do not have to wait on, or be moved by the Lord to use it it is a gift of the spirit and everyone who is Spirit filled has it in them) – all have and all may do it but all are not to.” let it be by two or the most three” if anything be revealed to another that stands by “let the first hold his peace” (That is in accordance with in “honour preferring one another” The gift is subject to you and you are able to speak or not speak) Let you brother /sister who started a second after you proceed, otherwise in a large congregation there could be disorder, as there was in Corinth – which is why Paul had to admonish them over the gifts “Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.”
The other aspect of “prophecing” is that on the day of Pentecost/ what Peter preached was prophecy. fulfilled and to fulfilled yet it was all from Scripture ther was nothing added from Peter’s own thinking He did not have to say “Hang on folks I have to go and prepare a sermon/talk” He opened his mouth, and like his Savour began to preach to them. When you give your testimony to the unsaved of how the Lord saved and blessed you.How they too can receive the same gift, joy, peace, love, security, hope, blessing, You are by the Grace of God prophesying to that individual, teaching expounding the Promise of The Father to them. Like Peter you do not “plan” what to say to them, you are filled the the Holy Spirit . the “coal of fire from the alter has touched your lips” you have been given a mouth and wisdom of what to speak to the unsaved. So many times over 45 years I have listened with amazement to the testimony of those telling of the day they were first spoken to, or the day of their first meeting at the church, and they reiterate it was as if the person/speaker” new all my questions before I asked them” Truly The Tesimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy.
.
a couple of isues with the post
1 “that God is more concerned with the messenger than the message? Doyou see that the minister
is more important than the ministry? If the messenger is wrong, the message will be wrong too. If the
minister is wrong, the ministry will be wrong”
Let us take Jesus as the ultimate messenger and therefore our best if not our only example. And let us agree that we in our ministry should emulate Him.
“Jesus the Messenger” is in fact “The Message” He is the Word He alone is Truth. They are One and the Same
Jesus is not more important than His word (Message) He is The Message.
We as his people must “confess Him ” to “confess Him” is to “say he same as He” His word is written on the saint’s heart (mind) we are to speak it
We are His epistles (letters) written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God on the flesshy tables of our mind”
If our “prophecy” is of the future it must agree with His Word.. Scripture is Written, it is Complete. I have met too many “prophets” who have spoken outside His Word. (Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. – surely this does not only apply to revelation only!? we wrestle, meddle. with His Word at our peril
11Peter “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
As for me personnaly , I thank God He is long suffering, otherwise I, would even now, be dead meat.
2 “And do you see that the Lord of the work is more important than the work of the Lord?” Please allow me to attempt to qualify that.
Again lets us look at the statement:
.What is meant here by “the work of the Lord”
to me it can only be one of two things, I trust I am not wrong.
A either it IS God’s Work, or B it some person boasting of the “work” he/she has personally done for the Lord .
The first we have no problem with,. The focal point of His plan and the “outworking of it” must be Jesus crucifiction and resurection and the pouring forth of the Holy Spirit. THAT ecompasses” The Work Of The Lord” It compelled Him to give His only Son To us it is vital, without it we all are dead.
The second. i may have a problem with. I believe I have met many such,. their testimony is of the many places they have been and the many things “they have done for the Lord” they should be told . “Do not tell me what you have done for Him, Tell me rather what He has done for you” The word of our testimony, which is one part of our overcoming and is surely the multitude of blessing, provision, healing, peace, etc. that He has poured out on us.
I have not done His work since i receieved, but i see rather He has done His work in me. Sadly i have seen youg men, enthusiastic, encouraged by others to continue in their unabated work of the Lord, to the neglecting of their wife and children, to the point where ther maraige disintregrated .
Unfortunately some of the so called prophets I have met, and run into on the web have their ‘word from God tor the world’ fall into the B category and instead of their “gift?” being to the edification exhortation of the Church it serves rather for the puffing up of the person who has the “gift”
Like Paul to Titus
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
A question
Did Paul prophecy here of the “Prosperity” gospel?
Pr Michael
I believe that this is good sound advice Chip. I walk this path in fear and trembling, asking only that God’s truth only ever leaves my lips.
5-22-2010
In reading the comments to Chip Brogden’s article, I sense that most of them are “Yes” men rather than “Bereans”. While most of what he says strikes home, I have some points of misunderstanding that I would like to have clarified.
1- In his capacity as a prophet of God, he should be an example of what to do, not what not to do. A prophet of God is an example of what to do (follow me as I follow Christ), where as a false prophet is an example of what not to do. A life characterized by many mistakes and failures does not sound like a life that Christ Himself is in control of. Mistakes and failures come from the flesh, not from the Holy Spirit. In 1 John 2:6 it says, “Whoever claims to live in Him (Christ) must walk as Jesus did.” This is especially true of God’s prophet today.
2- I don’t believe that God leaves the when and the how up to the prophet. His leading by His Spirit is in no way incomplete or without direction. When God gives His words to a prophet, they are not ours to rearrange or to interpret. The manner of delivery to whom, and when, are just as much directed by God and to be followed exactly, as are the words themselves. For us to imply that God allows a true prophet just to do his own thing in any area of prophecy is in my book man’s opinion rather than God’s truth.
3- Your reference to “the spirits of the prophets being subject to the prophets” seems a bit out of place here. In 1 Cor 14:29-33 it is in the context of orderly worship in church when a prophet is speaking and the other prophets are carefully weighing what is being said. It is to ensure that the speaker is anointed by the same spirit that the listening prophets are, and that the church is protected from false prophecy. This does not allow the speaking prophet to determine the when and how of a prophecy, but all of the prophecy is under the control of the listening prophets.
Prophecy is God placing His words in my mouth and what comes out is God’s and God’s alone. It is all about Him, and nothing about me. If it has one iota of me in it, it is false prophecy.
I have just read this letter and really don’t have the words to express its impact on me. I will need to read and meditate upon it. I believe it is filled with truth, that gently spoken truth that punches the heart that only the Lord Himself has the wisdom to utter. The times are dark right now, growing darker by the hour, and many of us, although holding tight to and contending for good and sound doctrine and faith, have left our first love. This letter is a timely reminder to not only strengthen that which remains, but to return to adoration of the vine by which every branch is nurtured and strengthened. We must eat Christ Jesus to speck Christ Jesus. Be face to face with Christ Jesus to bring His face to the face of others in Christ Jesus. This letter is a blessing to us all. Thank you.
David Larson
When did Jesus say “do not worship me.” He repeatly received worship and I can’t recall any time He rebuked anyone for doing so. In fact Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit comes He will speak of Me. I worship God as the triune God that He is.
I didn’t think that Chip was referring to apologizing for truth but for normal everyday misunderstandings. I don’t agree with every word but I do believe the spirit of this letter is of Christ
Jesus never told us that we would be identified by our gifts, or by the signs and wonders we do. No, but because we love one another, the world will know we are His. Always keep humble. Always walk quietly. Never walk alone. Serve with no expectation of honor. Love without hypocrisy. Accept no titles except brother or sister. Desire only to be found faithful, and to hear, “Well done” from the Lord Jesus.
tenderwarrior
Why do you take one part of what some one says and try to make it say something i did not say.
Why cant you make what ever point you want to make with out trying to make someone else look foolish?
And as far as God being triune that is a nother can of worms not in the bible. Mans attempt to explain something he cant understand with his natural mind. if you would rather know Jesus as a man be my guest. Jesus is and always will be the Christ the son of God. Gods word come in the flesh the flesh of Jesus of nazerth and now our flesh. If all you know Jesus as is the carpenters son good for you go ahead and worship your idea of God. I would rather worship God in Spirit and truth not out of all the carnal thoughts that men have about who they think he is.
Jesus came to make a way for us to know God as are father. Jesus him self said no one is good but God you figure it out. Oh i would ask you not to use my name to make your point or at least spell it right.
This one is good enough to not just read it, but study it, absorb it, incorporate it into one’s being.
Have been to Chip’s website and read some of his ebooks. Have some concerns but still not sure about where he is going. It seems the ebook “The Irrisistable [sorry David bad spelling] Kingdom” was just a lead to get me to purchace the entire book. I would use great discernment when exploring this man’s other writings. ?????
tenderwarrior,
I was once a big admirer of Chip’s teaching. Around the time of “The Irresistible Kingdom” there were concerns raised that Chip was promoting Universalism. As far as I’m aware he never really answered those concerns.
Tenderwarrior
And yes you are right no where does Jesus say out right not to worship him. He does say that no one is good but God.
My point was not to say what was not said but to get people to see that the thrust of what Jesus did and is doing is not about who he is so much as it is about who God is to us through Jesus Christ. To many christians just see them selves as forgiven and do not relize that Christ has come to live in each and every believer so that we to may know God as are Father and experince all that means now and not in a time when most of what He has done will not be needed. As in some day in heaven.
Moses is a prophet…….did he not have a few problems with God’s instructions to him? As a matter of fact, Moses failed to trust and obey God completely right from the beginning….Moses wanted someone else to “help” him besides God! God had compassion on Moses’ weakness and sent Aaron with him.
And there are others who failed….
The only Prophet who did not have one failure is Jesus, our Saviour, our Master, our Intercessor, our High Priest, the only BEGOTTEN son of God.
(Emphasis on BEGOTTEN for the Oneness Pentecostals…….Father, set us ALL free from lies we have believed from mankind and Satan)
Something we all might want to think about,
Luke 7:28
For i say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet then John the baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater then he.
So as far as old testment prophets you can not compare any of them to even a baby christian these are not my words they are the words of Jesus. Do any of us really understand what it means to be in dwelt by the Christ of God and how great a gift God has given us. And i can tell you all those that will say this means someday that is just not true the kingdom of God is in you if you have been born again and the Spirit of Christ dwell in you then all of who God is is in you because all of the fulleness of God did and alwyts will dwell in Christ all you have to do is act like it is true and you will see that it is. Something for all of us to think about.
I have a small issue to requested help with before I comment on this. I have a account here, How in the world do you login?
This Topic
Was this written to some one specific?
Normally I dont open the emails I get from here because I get to many emails from to many places and I need to start pruning them out. But Something stopped me on this one for reasons unknown. I struggle with this prophetic thing greatly. When I wanted it I was a fraud and I know it. Now I don’t want it and I feel like God is forcing the issue. I have counted the cost I am just not sure I am ready to pay the price. Stuck in a log and cut in half does not sound like a great day to me.
I read this email and it was as if it was speaking directly to me. I started reading the comments on it. Does God really call that many prophets? If each person on this list who claims Gods calling is a real prophet I am not needed. I personally hope you guys are prophets.
My calling
I was very rebellious and one day I wound up with the book “the prophet” by Frank Pretti in my hand.
I did not want to read it at all. I wanted to read my Anne Mccaffery books. But something inside made me read that book. And durring that reading I got the feeling of some day friend some day it will be you. In recent days I have had friends who don’t believe i prophets say that they feel that I am one. Not only that but These dog gone emails have been jumping out at me. I had never heard of Strom and I got myspaced one of his letters. Something like the calling of a true prophet. It was all about what a real prophet it is and how they get that way. I hated that letter because it was the story of my life. After my run in with blab it grab it. And the fortune telling trash prophet I want no part of either of those. And frankly I am scared of being a real prophet.
A real prophet can be called to challenge leadership. A real and that scares the life out of me. (david was called on the carpet by a prophet) So to all you prophets would you stand in the line of fire? Would you stand before the big O and pronounce judgement on this nation. I dare say the real prophet of this land will be called to stand the line He will face hell and all his rath.
Yet Greater is HE who is in me…..ect (thats a quote not literally me I hope)
Any comments to my comment or want to talk to me (aka yell at me for being a fool) DemonDeathDealer@gmail.com
There is a lot of wisdom in Chip’s text.
It seems that, in Old Testament times, the Prophet was somewhat like a guide and a middleman between God and the people. However, there are many scholars today who teach that the office of a Prophet is not needed anymore since we have the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures to guide us. In other words there are no Prophets today. This is not to say that believers can’t have the gift of prophecy!
Aside from that little food for thought, what I find interesting in the discussion is that it gives the impression that as tho the Lord calls someone to become a Prophet, that person then still takes God’s request to other believers in order to check out the pros and cons of such a position. (Did any of the Prophets of old ever do such a thing?) Fact is, should the Lord still decide to give someone the office of Prophet, that person would be hard-pressed to run from it! Just as Jonah couldn’t possibly run from his call to go to Nineveh. Perhaps such a high calling is not up for discussion?
Blessings, and all 4 Jesus!
Mario C. Alleckna
Chip Brogen has written his advice with sincerity and humility.He says he is not an authority. Neither am I.
The prophetic calling is close to my heart. It makes me uncomfortable at times and yet I cannot deny it. I love the truth and willingly stand corrected if anything I say is false.I still make mistakes although some of the contributors seem to consider themselves ‘bullet-proof’.
I agree with Chip. I understand the sense of humility he is trying to convey.
David :You sound as if you have been exposed to Non-Trinitarian teaching. Please be careful. There is a lot of such literature about. Also, prophets are not perfect. Look at Elijah, Jonah and David (I still cannot get my head around what he did, with what he had (or knew). Not N/T you say? Look ar Peter then. He had to be corrected by Paul. The apostles argued.
Wayne:God’s Word should not be negated or contradicted by contemporary prophecy but there is still room for the “new “. Just because something is not specifically mentioned in Scripture does not mean it must be false. We can ‘miss the boat’ because we are not fully understanding of God’s Word. Messages for people , countries, circumstances and so on, are still given by God today .
Gary:I comment on the points you have listed:-
1.Profits are not perfect people as already mentioned.Elijah ran; Jonah ran away; David commited adultery and murdered Uriah. Peter acted falsely and had to be corrected.
2. ‘When and how’ are more usually left up to us. I have often struggled with a message as to when to deliver it and how.God often speaks in dreams and visions which must be interpretted and tongues messages have to be interpretted . There is room for error. That is why prophecy must be judged. It is not either all right, or all wrong .
3 The prophet must decide when to speak. Chip is correct in his scriptural reference.
I like this forum. We can express ourselves freely, not like in the institutional church, but it should be done responsibly. Some of the ‘opinion’ is a little harsh.
This article is profound. I pray that people will read it, and ponder it’s meaning for each one of us. I most certainly am. I pray that the Spirit will guide us all in understanding the real meaning of being children of God, and therefore also the real meaning of love.
Harvey
If you believe that God is a triune being you are the one who should look out. No where in the bible does it say God is three.
That as i have stated is natural mans idea trying to explain something he can not understand. God is one and He is Spirit he does not have a spirit. Him and his Word are oneThat is why most christian live defeated lives they may not say it with there lips but they believe that Gods Spirit is somehow just a part of Him. God is Spirit and if you have His Spirit in you you have God in you. In Fact the bible says that Jesus had the fulleness of God in Him. Well if you have Christ in you so do you. Most christians think they have a third of God because they have split Him up into three parts because men have taught this and not the scriptures. So Harvey thanks but no thanks i would rather believe what the bible teaches then mens ideas on the subject. Not jesus nor any of the apostles taught that there is such a thing as the trinity it took carnal minded men some 300 years to think that one up.
Thank you so much for these wise, Spirit-filled words, words all who seek to minister in the Lord’s Name, whether by way of prophecy or any other way, need constantly to bear in mind. The ever-present danger, of course, is pride, especially the pride of being thought of as someone ‘special’.
I remember the English minister (now with the Lord) George (Wally) North, in announcing a forthcoming speaker, saying “His ministry is good, but the man is better.” And then he added something I shall never forget, “A man must always be better than his ministry.”
May all of us who minister to others bear this in mind.
Thank you, again, Chip, for you most timely reminder.
Reading the letters on this forum, it seems as though there are several “Prophets” on this forum alone. This surely amazes me considering that there are hundreds of Christian forums worldwide, which then would mean that there are hundreds, if not, thousands of “Prophets” here today.
When I study my Bible I find that the office of a Prophet used to be a very select and rare one. It was a very unique and special calling and only a few were called. With the Holy Spirit coming, however, the gift of prophecy as one of many gifts was introduced.
Allow me to ask a couple of questions here:
1. Where in the Bible can we find an indication that there would be hundreds or thousands of Prophets in the “last days”?
2. Is there perhaps a difference between the gift of prophecy and the very distinctive calling and office of a Prophet?
Blessings, and all 4 Jesus!
Mario
Numbers 11:29
And Moses said unto him, Art thou jealous for my sake? would that all Jehovahs people were prophets that Jehovah would put his Spirit upon them.
In the old testament the Spirit of God came on certain people to do a certain thing.
In the new the Spirit of God takes up resident right in the believer.
I pray that the body of Christ would wake up to the fact that if you have been born again you got something to say because God is in you and he desires to speak through you this is not just for a few this is for all who know Him. We need to get out of the idea that fellowship is listening to a few chosen people every week and not hearing what the whole body of christ has to say right down to the little toe. After all is not a true prophet just saying waht they here God say well if Christ is in you that is all of us to some degree
As I read Chip’s post, I see the fruit of the Spirit of love, and the real message I receive from his post is love. He writes out of love that others may learn from his errors, exposing his frailties. Love does cover a multitude of sin.
More than anything else, God is concerned with the love that is found within us as that is Him residing within us. To love greatly is to humbly bow yourself before an offended brother and cover his sin or wrong in God’s love and restore fellowship…God does that with each of us daily. He covers our wrong attitudes and belief systems with His love and has relationship with us in spite of our brokeness and wrong belief systems. Relationship is greater than being right as relationship opens the door to speak truth in love (being right) to those who are deceived. It is not my job to fix someone who is deceived, but it is God’s job to fix them. My role is to be a ready vessel if God chooses to use me in that process and walk in His love that they may know Him in me. To be His hands and feet I must have His love dwelling in me. Apologies to a brother are not because I was wrong in what I said but wrong in how I said it and sometimes even wrong in my heart when I said it even though I spoke truth.
I look at the lives of the prophets in scripture and they suffered greatly because they loved God deeply as well as the God’s children that they brought messages to the people to warn them of impending judgment (they wept over the people). That is a God of love that gives his creation an opportunity to repent before judgment and a prophet’s heart should break just the same if he is filled with God’s love and has God’s heart.
Too many times the prophetic gift is present but there is no fruit of the Spirit to carry the gift in many modern day prophets. The gifts must be wrapped in the fruits of the Spirit lest we become clanging symbols. The real question of a prophet: is your heart filled with the love of God to be able to utilize your gift and calling properly? Without love, your words cut in judgment and bring destruction, even though you speak the truth. If the fruit of love is found within you, it will break your heart when you see people reject His word and His love. As a believer, it has always been clear to me when someone gives me truth in love and when someone gives truth. Truth in love finds place in my heart and brings healing. I would encourage anyone who is a prophet to look at their heart motive before they speak what they know to be true. I have apologized many times not because I was wrong in what I said but because “truth” was wielded without love and I offended my brother…that was never my intention but was the result all the same. Humility brings us to a place to recognize that even right words must be delivered with a right spirit or heart of love. Even when God has shown me the truth about a situation or individual, I have to stop and ask if God has shown me to intercede and stand in the gap or to speak the truth out? More times I am not to speak it out but are called to stand in the gap and intercede in love for that person and allow God to use someone else to speak into the situation in His season when it bears fruit. God is after our hearts at all cost.
For those that are called to speak it out as the prophets of old to those in the world who reject Him (and if you are full of His love they will reject you too), know that you have been given the privilege to experience the very heart and sufferings of Christ and that is a gift to be embraced. Pour out truth with fervent love so that none will be lost. The truth is many will be but God gives even the most wicked heart the chance to repent and turn toward Him.
Truth is a 2 edged sword. When given in the Spirit, it can produce repentance and healing in those who have an ear to hear. When delivered in the flesh (without love), it can produce destruction and division. I encourage us all to wrap the gifts of the Spirit which God has given each of us in the fruits of the Spirit so they produce life and not death…no greater gift is there than to lay down your life down for a brother. May we all find that level of love in our hearts when the opportunity presents.
RIddle this, batman:
(It ain’t the world that’s going to be/is now judged: No, friends, it’s looney Church: Looney church that believes rapture-prosperity-jabberwocky-gobbledygook, et al. The judged into really tough tribulation times, that be rapturists, prophetic jabberwocky-ists, emergent gobbleygook-sters, ramble-on-say-nothing-Xstions.)
Use cogent thinking to reason this out: If rapture is not true (nor the other shenanigans of popular church) THEN: the church has missed the future…. the church has self-blinded itself to what is happening tomorrow…. and, God’s “Behold, I come quickly-in-Spirit-in-clean-vessels: NOW!
For too long, self-imposed ignorant church has been saying, “Boy, howdy… is the world gonna get a Thor-Hammer-Red-Neck-Whomping, ’cause that world is so dog gone pernicious! And that’s NOT how it is playing out. Rather, the church is astonishingly ignorant as to how Chirst returns: Namely, In SPIRIT… and… most critically: NOW. So, the blind church is blind to its own appointments in God’s Woodshed Corrections. That’s what is now, and will come to those who can’t see spiritually…. but rather keep their ears tickled.
What’s Good for the Goose
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 9/10/09
If what’s good for the goose,
Is good for the gander,
Then, if the gander cooks the goose,
I will tell you with candor…
That if the poor goose,
Somehow survives its cooking,
Then that gander had best,
Over shoulder be looking.
You see our geese have been cooking,
For a long, long time,
By vulture over-lord ganders,
We now see their rhyme!
And we geese patiently took it,
Beyond endurance,
Now ganders beware: greed brings,
Hell’s comeuppance.
You see, hell normally loves injustice,
But this was just too much,
Even hell now joins rank with heaven,
In this greed gander bust.
Soon geese will be happily honking,
Victory V’s in the sky,
While ganders get eliminated,
Clueless, not knowing why.
What’s hidden by treacherous men,
Will be revealed to see In That Day,
When ganders stop cooking geese,
What surprise! It turns out the other way.
So cuadillo goose-cooking ganders,
Will, in time, get what they’re due,
If burnt geese believe in just deserts,
Good God! It’s gander hullabaloo!
Becca, isn’t it interesting though that the Prophet Jonah did not seem to love the people of Nineveh?
Blessings,
All4J!
Mario
Yes it is Mario. God desires us to walk in His love but never takes away our will. He can use us just like Jonah in spite of “our opinions and belief systems” but the greater is to surrender our will for His will and reach out to the lost in His love. I personally would rather surrender to what God is asking me to do without question than live what Jonah lived through because he felt Nineveh didn’t deserve mercy…it also gives me great peace that God’s love covers Jonah’s and my sin alike when we place our opinion over His. :) The prophets are human and that is a good example of God using an earthen vessel that did not fully understand God’s love for His creation and that His love is greater than our best understanding of a situation. I pray my obedience is an offering of love to God in spite of what my wicked mind understands and that I am able to learn God’s wisdom from those experiences. Blessings to you brother!
It seems the American Church, with all her arrogance and pity for the “poor” Third World countries, is conforming to a few of the churches in Revelation. Ephesus; Pergamos; Thyatria; Philadelphia; Laodicea.
INSTEAD OF BEING CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF JESUS CHRIST.
Who is your MASTER?
There is a COST for following Jesus…YOUR LIFE.
That’s what COVENANT means. (Check out Precept study on The Covenant of God)
And if you have been called to one of the offices…God demands purity…and He provides all the things He demands from us.
If you are a BONDSERVANT…you have given up your RIGHTS…your right to run your life; your right to “figure things out by using your Adamic Nature”; your right to make decisions outside the control of the Holy Spirit; your right to judge UNRIGHTEOUSLY (by the Adamic Nature/flesh); your right to JUDGE GOD’S NATURE AND HIS PLANS FOR EACH OF HIS CHILDREN.
There are many teachings in the American Church that have ONLY been around for the last 200 years……GET BACK TO THE TRUTH FROM GOD AND THROW OFF THE LIES OF MEN.
Do you DARE…Do you have the FORTITUDE to ask God for the Baptism of Fire, His purifying fires that remove everything that is fake or a lie?
Be ready to be SHAKEN so that the chaff will fall away.
The lies are subtle….be alert…capture every thought and ungodly emotion and submit them to the Holy Spirit. Those who have been called to an office know this ALL TOO WELL…….that is why the FLESH IS RELUCTANT, BECAUSE IT KNOWS WHAT IT MUST SUFFER.
Have you not read in scripture of the “suffering” prophet?
I have not found a “prosperity” prophet of God in scripture.(only the false prophets)
The “Gifts of the Holy Spirit” are just that….The Holy Spirit is the POSSESSOR of ALL HIS GIFTS. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT GIVE US possession of these gifts….thank you Lord for your wisdom!
The Holy Spirit who indwells every born again child of God IS THE ONE WHO DETERMINES WHICH GIFT TO USE AND WHEN in each believer. The Holy Spirit may manifest multiple gifts in the same believer….or multiple gifts at the same time……….IT ALL DEPENDS UPON HIS WILL….NOT OURS.
The offices of God are irrevocable, but a person who has been called to an office by God is also equipped by God with any of the “Gifts of the Holy Spirit” at any given time or place deemed by God.
Thanks, Becca and AMEN Happy Trails!
With the Holy Spirit coming as the great Helper and Comforter, His gifts, including the prophetic gift, were introduced to ALL who believe and are called according to His purpose. Many Christians today, driven by the old flesh nature, still desire to look to a man for guidance and leadership. They are even willing to pay such a person a lot of money. Thinking about some of today’s church leaders, the “Saul Syndrome” is as real today as it was in the days of Saul, when the people were not content with their God alone, who was invisible and seemed so distant at times.
So they wanted a king, a leader they could look up to and hold in high esteem. A real person with flesh and bones, someone they could see and touch. Someone who would speak to them; someone they could admire, and who would give them direction. Today there are many believers (perhaps more than we think) who go to church and almost never study their Bibles because they figure it’s the leader’s job, since he gets paid, aside from the responsibility factor. (He said it…, he is the professional, he told us…, it wasn’t my idea…I’m not responsible etc.)
We have created our own false prophets and leaders. We are the ones who have financed and supported their kingdoms. May the Lord forgive us for committing such adultery and idolatry!
Instead of first and foremost developing and cultivating a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, many Christians are quite content to follow a charismatic human leader. It is no surprise that people like Joel Osteen and others have such a following. Is it not the flesh that desires to look to a person? God only knows if and when we are ready (mature!) to discern a real from a false prophet!
(“…and if this time was not cut short even the elect would be deceived…”)
A. W. Tozer’s words still ring true today:
“ There is today no lack of Bible teachers to set forth correctly the principles of the doctrines of Christ, but too many of these seem satisfied to teach the fundamentals of the faith year after year, strangely unaware that there is in their ministry no manifest Presence, nor anything unusual in their personal lives.”
Blessings, and all 4 Jesus!
Mario
A call of God can be difficult, some gifting’s are the forerunners and the paving of a way. For example the gift of discernment is an extremely hard calling. I mean….who wants to be discerned after all?
But, we are called to put ourselves to the side and love His call with all our lives and be willing to pay the price, since after all wasn’t He the one who called? And in fact, for us to think twice about the hardness stems from the pride of our own lives. We need to become abased and follow without reserve because we LOVE Him, and we love ourselves less.
Life is like a mist, real kinda short eh? For to me is Christ and to die is gain.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2Co 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
2Co 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
We are called to a death and a burial. Die flesh, die.
Sarah
Anybody notice we have two distinct conversations going on here?
One: Sort-a-kinda sloppy reasoning that prophets can’t do much, since God never really, kind-a-sort ever, ever tells us “when” and “how” so we can be, well, dumb. And so, bros who can’t hear “when” and “how”, let’s stay dumb!
Two: God indwells His purified, been-through-the-fire in TRUTH, and truth IS the spirit of prophecy… and thus, rapture is a lie, and thus indwelling is now, and thus, the people who are blind won’t honor God’s coming in individuals… so the church is STUCK, STUCK, STUCK…. in this VERY SITUATION. Those who see, and don’t. Since the non-seeing can’t see, they also think rather poorly.
Brogden makes weird constructs out of the Bible: That “when/how” are unknowable! RUBBISH, I say, RUBBISH! Why in the heck would God give us the “What” and not the “When” and “How”?
Well, maybe… to the blind-of-God’s-Spirit-Indwelling…. he gives just the “What”. And he gives a sort-a-kind-a fogginess to all thinking. But the indwelt-of-God, he gives more, much more! He not only gives “when” and “how” but His Mind!
I Speak in Pluralities
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 3/8/2009
I speak in pluralities,
Too much for modern man,
He takes My words perversely,
Diametric in evil plan.
If I say, Behold, I come quickly,
He wants me running to him in flesh,
It means I come in his own spirit,
While letting the carnal wrong-guess.
If I say, You can be secure in God,
People make it a sin guarantee,
They flake out, do many great evils,
And turn My words back on Me.
Do good and you,
Will do well,
Do bad and you,
Go to hell.
Even such a simple construct,
Has been perverted by the perverts,
They’ve imagined eternal security,
To make their heaven hell’s convert.
Nay, rather, the word of God works plural,
Saving all whom it can,
Allowing sinners to take truth exact wrong,
Condemning pride in man.
My Father’s great truths and precepts when described,
Offer usually two opposing paths,
Men who love their brain, emotion or prejudice much,
Make themselves first while last.
Believe, if you want, in crazy rapture,
That I come to take you away,
As I indwell saints making heaven now,
While you waste each single day.
Believe, if you must, in prosperity,
Building your soul on greed,
As I indwell saints humble in spirit,
Fulfilling Father’s earth need.
Believe, if you desire, prophets only entertain,
Reject all rebuke,
Just remember, I am a harsh God: John wrote,
The lukewarm I puke.
Shocked, shocked you are,
Then believe, if you shall, soft love,
Ignore the fiery heavens,
God is eagle not just harmless dove.
Mario wrote:
“We have created our own false prophets and leaders. We are the ones who have financed and supported their kingdoms. May the Lord forgive us for committing such adultery and idolatry!”
This is true Mario.
I was asking the Lord about a similar subject lately. About deception that is rampant.
I asked Him, “why are so many deceived”?
His answer to me: “Because they love the “gifts” more than they love me. So I have given exactly what they wanted. Their delusions.”
Yep. It was a very clear word.
Earth Could Have Been a Contender
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 5/24/10
Jeremiah 6:16
Earth could have been a contender,
It’s now ripped up!
Who, when traveling star to star,
Would look them up?
Oh Earth, oh sad Earth,
My true Son died to live in thee,
To indwell thee now,
But you said, “With Him, we can’t be!”
Galactic civilizations, some of you think, don’t exist because,
They nuked themselves before learning space travel!
But like Earth, they do, but remain stupefied and conflicted,
Because in their own way they reject God in their hovel!
Earth could have been a contender,
Boldly going where My Son has gone before!
But you won’t have Him inside you,
My friends ask, “What did you make Earth for?”
For My Son I made the Earth,
And its souls for Him to inhabit!
Until Church figures this out,
I leave it dumb as a rabbit!
Except for my prophets and seekers,
In whom My Son inhabits and relates,
I leave the church world stupefied,
Left behind in their chosen, desolate fates.
Oh Earth, oh sad Earth,
My true Son died to live in thee,
To indwell thee now,
But you said, “With Him, we can’t be!”
Robert. The Lord has had me wait a year before He wanted me to do anything with what He told me. many times I’d wait months. The truth is that just because God shows me something about a circumstance or a person doesn’t mean that I need to tell anyone in fact. Of course, God doesn’t just show me for no reason, because that doesn’t line up with His character!
The timing of the delivery is extremely important actually. If I’m a vessel for Him then I need to make sure I follow His plan and not my own. And I need to make sure that I’m not reading into any of what He tells me. I learned this very early when the Lord told me a lady friend was going to be blessed with MONEY, and that is exactly how he showed me….snow that was falling that FELT like money. But because i didn’t believe that God would bless with money I changed the word around and specifically told her it wouldn’t be MONEY, but I told her “that all those around them would say that they are surely blessed”. Of course, as it so happens, within a short period after that (probably a year) she won a million dollar home through a raffle ticket she bought at the hospital. This happened the day after her and her husband cried out to God to help them as they were going to lose their house to the bank. :)
So, the timing is very important. The reason how it’s delivered is also important (am I doing it out of a proud heart? etc.) What we need to really remember is people are involved and we are called to love the world because He died for it. :)
Sarah
Why would God give us the what and not the how and why? He has His own good reasons.
I will give one of my examples, I’ll cut it very short. The pastor of a church we were attending at one time had a son late teens early twenties. And during one worship time the Lord pointed him out to me and said to me something like “there is one among you who comes and goes, and comes and goes, and yet he is a goat among the sheep”. He was in the worship team band.
At that point I frankly wished I’d never heard that saying at all, and was hoping that it just laid at that. Anyhow, this lad went away and I didn’t see him for a year. Then he came back and starting playing in the worship team again. Well then I begin to hear from people that he is peddling drugs and living with prostitutes. and in fact the drug dealers hate him so bad they beat him up every time they see him. Then he comes to the front of the church one time and he is bawling and asking for forgiveness from certain people etc. at this point the Lord brings back what he told me a year ago…….”there is one among you who comes and goes, and comes and goes, and yet he is a goat among the sheep”.
Of course it’s something that I don’t really want to hear, I mean who wants trouble right? Well anyhow because his sin was ripping the body of Christ off I did give a word for him publicly. It did include the info. God told me a year before, and the fact of his behaviour over years of coming and going and being a goat. And of course it included a call to come to TRUE repentance and no longer to play games with God.
Anyhow, this is one example.
Sarah
David,
You seem to be reading a different bible. I have the fulness of the God-head in me.I don’t personally know anyone who thinks they have only a third of God in them. This is surely faulty reasoning and not from God. The scriptures make it clear that the Holyt Spirit is God . You must be watching Tomorrows World or reading Watch-Tower literature.
05-25-2010 10:38 PDT
Harvey Rosieur
1- Prophets of God are not perfect people, and they do make mistakes. You have pointed out examples.
However: When a prophet of God speaks a prophecy from God, it must be letter perfect. Since God is never wrong, His prophecy will never be wrong.
Men (and women) today who claim to be prophets of God had better be 100% accurate in their prophecy, or they prove themselves to be false prophets. God does not make mistakes, and He does not allow His prophets that latitude either.
2- Do you have any biblical proof texts for your opinion that the when and how are more usually left up to us? When and how Jonah went to Nineveh were not left up to him. Interpretation of the vision/dream/tongue is not done by the prophet, but by God (see Daniel or Joseph). There is absolutely no room for error. The judging of a prophecy is done not by the prophet, but by other prophets. What you are describing does not sound to me like biblical prophecy.
3- You say, the prophet must decide when to speak. This is wrong. Haven’t you ever heard that we are to be led by the Spirit? It is the Spirit who decides when it is the right time to speak. He is also the one who decides how to speak. If the prophet decides instead of letting God decide, he is in the flesh and cannot do anything that pleases God (Rom 8:8). Chip was not correct, and he took the scripture verse (1 Cor 14:32) out of context.
Don’t be surprised if reproof is sometimes “harsh”.
Mario
Eph 4:11 says, “It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, ”
Why wouldn’t you think there would be as many prophets as evangelists and pastors?
When Paul spoke of a prophet speaking in 1 Cor 14:29-32, it implies that there are several other prophets beside the speaker in the meeting, who are weighing carefully what is being said by the speaker (prophet).
Mario
Women can have the gift of prophecy; there is biblical proof of this.
I know of no biblical proof text for a woman holding the office of prophet. Can anyone find one?
David Larsen
Not all people have the gift of prophecy. The blble says so in 1 Cor 12:29. All Christians who have been born again and have the Holy Spirit in control can be led by the Spirit in what they say, but that is not the gift of prophecy.
I have to clarify some of my story above…..which I was in a hurry writing…
On the first instance when i saw the worship team I saw what were sheep and amongst them was a goat (which was the pastors son) and the Lord said “there is one among you who comes and goes, and comes and goes, and yet He is not even my own”.
Okay, now i can rest at peace lol!
Sarah
The prophet Jonah disliked the Ninevites because they were Assyrians.The Assyrians were part of the three step takeover of taking into captivity the northern and southern kingdoms.
Sarah
Gary said “I know of no biblical proof text for a woman holding the office of prophet. Can anyone find one?”
A really good question from Gary!
Sarah
Gary
No where did i say that all have the gift of prophecy so if you are going to quote me do it right or try making your point with out using my name. I said that all true believers have the Spirit of God so in truth they all should have something to say and contribute to the fellowship and not just a so called chosen few.
Harvey
You seem to just have a problem with me for what ever reason and i would suggest you either repent or get saved or better yet try making your point with out using my name or a reference to the things i have said. The remarks you have to say about what bible you think i read or programs i watch are clearly from some other spirit and it is not Gods so why dont you keep it to your self. It just goes to show that no matter where you go you can bet the devil will show up.I do not have a problem with constructive comments some people though have a diffrent motive and seek to tear some one down because there heart is not right.
Motherofnations
I dont know if this works but
Acts 21:9
And the same man had four daughters virgins which did prophesy. Is does not say they were prophets but as i stated in another post to some extent all Gods children should prophesy or have something to say because God dwells in them. Jesus Himself said that the least in the kingdom of God was greater then the greastest prophet that ever lived who was John the baptist now dont you think that Jesus would know about these things?
Acts 2:17And it shall come to pass in the last days saith God I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh and your sons and daughters shall prophesy. This is clearly a reference to the new testment church and it does not say only the prophets will prophesy all those who have the Spirit. I am not taking away from the office of the prophet i am trying to get you to see this is the body of Christ and not some talent show for just a few as it has been in the past.
Judges 4:4 Deborah a prophetess
There are many times in the old testament where the word prophetess is used which would be the same as a prophet only a woman. You know what you wont find is a female pastor something to think about.
It says in the N.T. that the prophets of old spoke as they were CARRIED ALONG BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. I have never prophesied so don’t know what it’s like to do so, but it seems to me this hasn’t changed and true prophesy is that which proceeds from someone as they are carried along by the Holy Spirit, not at the decision or will of man..?
Also, just for the record, Miriam, Deborah, Anna were female prophetesses in Israel.
Dont forget the prophetess Huldah – she spoke into Josiah’s life and all came true – just for the record.
Wonderful forum – thank you all. Incredible food for thought to keep us all on our toes as we press toward the mark of the heavenly calling.
And yes – Love – God’s amazing unconditional love – covers a multitude of sins!
Bless you all
I really believe in the hour we are in we are going to see more and more of all the children of God growing up and proclaming what God has done truly any one who has been born again has the Spirit of the prophet in them which is Christ. After all any prophecy is just saying waht God has to say at the moment for those who can hear. I can not count all the times i have been at a meeting when someone would make a comment and others around them would say well he is not a prophet or a pastor or has a big name or he has only been saved for a short time and so we dont have to listen or obey. That is why so many miss the move of God they are looking for what they want to hear from who they expect to hear it from. God can and does speak through all His children and a true prophet of God is only interested in growing up Gods children where they to will have something to say as the body of Christ. To many for to long have kept Gods children stunted by there slant on scripture that says only the elite or the so called prophets can speak for God.
Whos church is this after all ours or Gods who makes one to differ from another. God can put His words in any believers mouth and that is the spirit of prophecy. John was a prophet and made a way for Jesus. In this hour the true prophets are making a way for Christ in you all who are born again from the toe to the head.
We really are growing up and we do not have to leave the planet to do that.
Amen, amen David!
In the 1959 movie “Ben Hur”, Pontius Pilate says to Ben Hur of bad man Messala, “What he did had its way with him… Where there is great government or power, even great feeling or compassion, error is great. We progress and mature by fault.”
This is a perfect description of popular church, popular Christian doctrines and popular outcomes…. Popular church has become great government, great power, great feeling, great compassion… But greater than anything is its error about tomorrow. Tomorrow, or at any moment, popular church thinks it will be rapture. And rapture is a lie nobody cares to rectify. And rapture blinds its prophets and its believers… to not only tomorrow, but today. Until rapture and other church shenanigans are thoroughly disavowed, then the prophetic stays messed up. And while the prophetic stays messed up, the Church cannot walk into tomorrow, because it believes in a whack-job utopia that never will be, that cannot be!
But, it’s all right. We progress and mature by fault. We just have to notice where the dead bodies lie. Pontius Pilate, in the movie Ben Hur, correctly noted that Messala was dead. He got his due.
Today is a time, especially during this double dip recession/sovereign default time of crisis, when lots of people will admit: Church has been dead. And it has been dead because of screw-ball doctrines of laziness and escape.
And since Christ’s resurrection, Jesus has indwelt people in spirit in the now!
And the Church hasn’t taught this, because it is self-condemning.
But the Church is turning around! And more people are indwelt, as they bless those… who are indwelt!
Yeah, God! What we do, has its way! Fear God and be indwelt! Hold on to rapture and be desolate.
Ignore this truth, and pretend it was never written… and what you believe will have its way with you!
Do you, or do you not… want Jesus to come quickly in you, now? Or not?
Gary Simpson wrote:
“Prophets of God are not perfect people, and they do make mistakes.”
Yes, this is true. Holy vessels in earthen pots…some pots are quite marred, but it doesn’t mean they are not used by God.
But when God speaks, the vessel better convey what God is laying on their heart, because He won’t let you rest if you don’t.
No two prophets will speak the exactly same way though. But, what they will share is a message from God’s heart if they are His “mouthpieces”. Look at scripture. No two prophet’s, no two apostles were exactly alike. They all had different personalities.
God likes variety.
Thus, they “spoke’ differently when it came to giving a particular message. But their message is something that God wants to convey to the body for a particular purpose, and at a particular time in certain cases.
And btw, God can use whoever he wants to; male, female, donkey etc. He’s God. He can do whatever He wants. Are you going to tell Him what He can and cannot do? Stop your presumptive speculation. You are being foolish.
And the body of Christ needs to stop putting certain elevated titles upon certain callings. A “prophet” is but one of the various gifts in the body. A gift to the body. As are the evangelists, pastors, teachers, apostles. Certain gifts that have certain functions. That’s all.
The problem we have today in christendom, are individuals who are self appointed and who speak out of their own spirits, and then turn around and say that it is “God” who is speaking through them. Bull crap!
Yep, I said bullcrap because that IS what it is. Scripture calls them “pillow prophets” because they probably ‘got” their deluded “messages” lounging around on their silkened pillows, pontificating about the ‘glories” of God. …Silkened pillows, paid for by gullible sheep who ignorantly sent their money to these pillow prophets.
It hasn’t changed.
The FALSE self appointed “apostles” and “prophets” like to elevate themselves with flashy banners and slick ministries titles, and make themselves out to be above everyone else because they appoint themselves as “special’.
Yes, they are so special that they will be placed in a particular “special” pile when Christ returns….the “refuse” pile that is to be burned! THAT’s their “special” calling folks!
You will know them by their fruit. Big money and prestige is not what it’s about. That’s bad fruit. It looks nothing like Jesus does it?
Can you imagine Jesus, not only being God in the flesh, but the greatest prophet, can you imagine Him driving around in a limosine?
Or having a multi-million dollar “ministry”? I think not.
You will know them by their fruit.
Gary simpson also wrote:
“However: When a prophet of God speaks a prophecy from God, it must be letter perfect. Since God is never wrong, His prophecy will never be wrong.”
By “letter perfect” can you please clarify what you mean Gary?
As a comment fellow posters: Remember, “paragraphs” are you your friends.
It’s easier to read what you have to say, that way.
Wow is a can of worms being opened up about the question if women can hold the office of prophet. I believe that an unbiased look at God’s word would exclude them. But who looks at the Word without bias these days? I once tried to prove that position wrong because it sure would be easier if I was wrong on this one but could not do it. Doesn’t make women one bit less than men but they have a different role to play then men and vice verca.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek nor bond nor free male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus
It is necessary to be an honest seeker of truth to put scripture in context. I believe this may be the biggest hinderance to revival. If we do not love truth then we do not love Jesus and hence no revival.
“Neither Jew nor Greek…” Gal. 3:28 is dealing with salvation not gifts or offices. Please check the context each place this phrase is used and you will see that it is either referring to salvation or the judgment of God if my memory serves me correctedly but then again since I’m now “over the hill” my memory may have been left on the other side. LOL
I believe the verse says what it says you fill in the blanks and i wouldnt asume that i am saying any thing other then putting this scripture here for all to see that in Christ we are made one.
He really is the worker of all the gifts. And just dont asume that because it has always been a certain way that is the way it will always be.As we grow in Christ many things change He never changes but we do. Or should i say i would hope we do to bad most of the so called church has not grown much in the last 2000 years. All that is about to change. The bottom line is that in Christ no one is special but God and there is no truth but Christ himself. Oh and something else the whole bible is about salavation pick any verse it is all about Christ.
God is immutable….His Word is immutable….Never changing.
Explain these Ladies away…..
Miriam Ex 15:20
Deborah Judg 4:4
Huldah 2Kings 27:14; 2Chron 34:22
Noadiah Neh 6:14
“unnamed” Is 8:3
Anna Luke 2:36
FALSE PROPHETESS JEZEBEL Rev 2:20
The Ladies in Acts 2:17 MAY have been prophets, we are not told that…..OR they MAY have been displaying the Gift of Prophecy at the time….since we don’t know for sure….BETTER TO KEEP SILENT.
And let me quote the following:
Numbers 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that ALL the LORD’S people were prophets, [and] that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon ALL flesh; and your sons and your DAUGHTERS shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the HANDMAIDS in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
1Cor 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.
Many false teachers and false prophets/prophetesses are out there, as there has been all through time.
But GOD’S PROPHET/PROPHETESS IS CALLED HOLY by God…..They have gone through the FIRE and come through purified BEFORE they are called to go public. You will not find WORLDLINESS in a prophet of God. You will not find PRIDE, LUST, ARROGANCE OR SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS in a prophet of God. God HUMBLES His prophets before He takes them public. Read your scriptures and look for the EVIDENCE God gives us for both true prophets and false prophets…..IT IS NOT WHETHER THE PROPHECY COMES TRUE IN THE FUTURE! HOW COULD THE PEOPLE DURING THE OLD TESTAMENT TEST THE PROPHET IF THEY ARE TRUE OR NOT, WHEN THE PROPHECIES WERE NOT FULFILLED FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS? BESIDES THAT….PROPHETS ARE “FORTHTELLING” AS WELL AS “FORETELLING”.
The true prophets are holy and the mouthpieces of God, bondservants in complete submission to their Master.
Very edifying posts, Heidic144, David, and Happy, I would love to see all of you in one room :-) The day is coming!
Don’t forget about these women as well.
Acts 21:8-9
“On the next day we who were Paul’s companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied.”
Right in line with Joel 2:28
1Cr 11:5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head-it is just as though her head were shaved.
The context is in meeting together as a church body..no question that women prophesy in ‘church’, as well as pray. The ‘keeping silent’ rule can’t therefore be a sweeping generalization, as in literal silence for women in every circumstance in the church – but was addressing certain other things. Women are not to teach or have authority over men in the church, so silence as regards the teaching of men, also not to distract their husbands with theological questions at church, but to discuss things at home, are just a couple of things I remember off the top of my head..I’m sure it might also have had to do with some women trying to ‘take over’ meetings (a little brimming over with enthusiasm in their new-found status as equals perhaps, who could blame them? lol) instead of allowing the men to lead the way. But women were evidently able to participate in the meetings fully as long as they respected the boundaries of Godly male authority. That’s my take on it so far..that seems to me to be the spirit and intent of those admonitions when they are taken all together..
The discussion I was having was the office of prophet. Sure women can prophesy but only as the Lord permits. Do a study on the word speak in 1Cor 14 regarding women and you will find that it means to address an assembly which would be mixed men and women. Strongs calls it an harangue [spelling?] which means publicly addressing an audience. Women can preach and teach and prophesy all they want [according to God's will of course] to a group of women but not otherwise.
I don’t think the old testament examples qualify when the New Testament clearly speaks differently. Notice though that Miriam took the women outside of the camp away from the men. Isaiah 4 [I think] explains Deborah.
As far as leadership in the church the qualification given in Timothy and Titus exclude women unless we are going to allow for homosexual marriage. “husband of one wife”
Sorry Andrew if I helped this discussion go down a rabbit trail from the original. Sure wish I was wrong on this one but have studied this extensively and can not make it say something else.
It is no more a slam to women that they can’t fullfill the role of men then I should feel slammed because God call another to be the Pastor, or Prophet or what ever. Let us be content to walk in the calling that God has given us. It is enough to keep us busy the rest of our life without trying to usurp authority that God hasn’t given us.
Let all be said in the Spirit of Christ because these discussion usually turn carnal.
Tenderwarrior, you seem like a legalist and you are lacking comprehension from the Holy Spirit. You are just going on your own mind’s “reasoning, and understanding, but not seeking the Spirit’s wisdom or understanding.
I sense fear from you….fear from allowing God to be and to do what HE wants to do in this day and in this hour.
1 CORINTHIANS 14:1 ON..” fOLLOW THE WAY OF LOVE AND EAGERLY DESIRE SPIRITUAL GIFTS, ESPECIALLY THE GIFT OF PROPHECY….HE WHO PROPHECIES IS GREATER THAN ONE WHO SPEAKS IN TONGUES, UNLESS HE INTERPRETS, SO THAT THE CHURH MAY BE EDIFIED…WHAT GOOD WOULD IT BE TO YOU, UNLESS I BRING YOU SOME REVELATION OR KNOWLEDGE, PROPHECY OR WORD OF INSTRUCTION?EVEN IN THE CASE OF LIFELESS THINGS THAT MAKE SOUNDS, SUCH AS FLUTE OR HARP, HOW WILL ANYONE KNOW WHAT TUNE IS BEING PLAYED UNLESS THEIR IS A DISTINCTION IN THE NOTES? AGAIN, IF THE TRUMPET DOESN’T SOUND A CLEAR CALL, WHO WILL GET READY FOR BATTLE?……………
SO IT IS WITH YOU. UNLESS YOU SPEAK INTELLIGIBLE WORDS WITH YOUR TONGUE, HOW WILL ANYONE KNOW WHAT YOUR SAYING?……
IT CONTINUES VERSE19 ON, “I WOULD RATHER SPEAK FIVE INTELLIGIBLE WORDS TO INSTRUCT OTHERS THAN TEN THOUSAND WORDS IN A TONGUE. BROTHERS, STOP THINKING LIKE CHILDREN. IN REGARD TO EVIL, BE INFANTS, BUT IN YOUR THINKING BE ADULTS. IN THE LAW IT’S WRITTEN: ‘THROUGH MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND THROUGH THE LIPS OF FOREIGNERS i WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, BUT EVEN THEN THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME, SAYS THE LORD.. ‘ TONGUES THEN ARE A SIGN, NOT FOR BELIEVERS BUT UNBELIEVERS…………
SO, IF THE WHOLE CHURCH COMES TOGETHER AND EVERYONE SPEAKS IN TONGUES, AND SOME WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND OR SOME UNBELIEVERS COME IN, WILL THEY NOT SAY THAT YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND?? ……….
……..BUT IF AN UNBELIEVER OR SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT UNDERSTAND COMES IN WHILE EVERYONE IS PROPHESYING, HE WILL BE CONVINCED BY ALL THAT HE IS A SINNER AND WILL BE JUDGED BY ALL, AND THE SECRETS OF HIS HEART WILL BE LAID BARE. sO HE WILL FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP GOD EXCLAIMING ‘GOD IS REALLY AMONG YOU.”
Please allow this passage to minister to you.. I felt that this scriptural word is for us to bring us to remembrance how and why we prophesy and who it’s really for. ..and as we can all see, in the end, prophecies are to leave us transformed, convicted and changed. THAT IS LOVE..REMEMBER OUR MISSION IS TO SNATCH OTHERS FROM THE FIRE AND BRING THEM TO CHRIST. YOU CAN COME TO CHRIST DIRTY AT FIRST, BUT THE LOVE AND MERCY OF GOD SHOULD TRANSFORM FROM DIRTY TO CLEAN THROUGH THROUGH THE TRANSFORMING FIRE OF SALVATION AND JESUS’S BLOOD-AMEN!!!!
Gary wrote:
Mario Eph 4:11 says, “It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, ” Why wouldn’t you think there would be as many prophets as evangelists and pastors? When Paul spoke of a prophet speaking in 1 Cor 14:29-32, it implies that there are several other prophets beside the speaker in the meeting, who are weighing carefully what is being said by the speaker (prophet).
Thank you Gary. I am quite familiar with these Scriptures. Allow me to clarify my point…
I do in fact see a distinctive difference between the obviously rare and very unique office of the Old Testament Prophet and the New Testament believer who might be chosen to have a prophetic gift.
In today’s church, someone who gives a prophetic word once in a while and who seems to be given such a gift, is often referred to as Prophet. However, I have not yet found anyone today who is equipped with a prophetic gift and who also remotely resembles any of the Prophets of old. This is not to be taken as criticism but rather as an indication that there is indeed a difference between the”old” and the ‘new’. Again, I believe the office of a Prophet was far “bigger” than just operating with a prophetic gift once in a while.
As was already mentioned, in Acts and Joel we read that in the last days even the children will prophesy and women are, and always were, part of the prophetic picture. What I find most interesting is that Paul does not see all of these gifts as the most important thing to desire…
“…though I have the gift of prophecy…and have not love, I am nothing.”
(Does that Scripture sound as though he was talking about an OT style Prophet?)
Allow me to throw out a question here…
Would it be reasonable to say that it is possible for a believer to be given only one or two prophetic words throughout his/her lifetime?
Blessings, and all 4 Jesus!
Mario
Re Female prophets.
Isaiah talks about a female prophet in the first 10 chapters some where I forget exactly where at the moment but it can be found. The interesting thing is this. He does not refer to her in any negative fashion. I find this important because I dont think Isaiah was stupid if she had been a bad person he would have said so. Naming her as a false prophet but didn’t So if you truly interested in this take some time to read those chapters. Oh and if it is not there. It is a little further in I am on chapter 17 so its not past there.
I find it interesting that marrio called the same as I did. A little easier going words and he got a few responses on the other hand not one comment.
I wonder I am using the wrong body spray?
I was brought up where women were not to sit on the mens side of the church, scarves, long dresses.
I agree that women shouldn’t be elders, deacons etc.
although the pastor is not really actually scripturally correct. the elders are to lead and to love the people out of pure love and not from gain and usury. Peter was told to feed His sheep three times. Peter admits that he is an elder and speaks to the elders giving them instructions. You can read about that in the 5th or 6th chapter of James starting from the beginning of the chapter. The word pastor just means shepherd, of which I am one and there are people in my life that i oversee. This pastor, as is functioning today is not really in the bible.
if a woman is to speak publicly it would be a type of woman that was very mature spiritually, righteous, holy in speech, modest, without the obvious stain of the love of the world on her. She would have to speak from great authority, which would come from a life of love and submission to Christ. This is the only one that would be acceptable.
A good portion of the women that I have seen are not the kind of women that need to be speaking. They are silly, foolish, and vain minded. In that case they need to keep quiet and ask their husbands at home.
thought this may be interesting for you.. In Indonesia the vast majority of the women who lead the churches are women actually. The men are happy to sit back and let them run the place….
What about countries that have had a good portion of the male population die of aids? The grandma’s are left to preach and teach and to be prophets. :)
I think that God uses men, and then there are a few women that God has appointed to use. the reason for the few is because women are designed for a certain purpose different to men. Then there are a few that are made from a different cloth. And again God will not be put into a box, just when we thought we had Him nailed right down, He comes out with using a donkey too.
And there IS a difference between prophesying and forth telling/foretelling. The person who it comes through is a mere people, here today and gone tomorrow. God brings down kings in one day and He raises a new king the very next day. :)
Let no man glory in this corrupt flesh.
Sarah
Sarah
I thought a very good slant on things and well worth thinking about. Thank You.
It is so sad to me that you are a “legalist” and not letting the Holy Spirit speak to you when you interpret the bible in context and literally.
Will the Holy Spirit lead contrary to the word? It seems many think so but it is really the unholy spirit that would lead to such conclusions.
These types of discussion always tend to lead to a lot of people using a bunch of humanistic arguements and not the Word. Our opinion means nothing. This is one of the reason God’s judgment in my opinion is falling in America because the church is worshipping at the feet of her own opinion instead of the Word of God.
Paul said at the end of 1Cor 14 that if any man thinks he is spiritual then let him acknowledge that I speak by commandment from the Lord. Again I’ll say it again if following scripture makes me a legallist then I’m a proud legalist because I intend to honor the Lord by followning HIS Word and not my own!
There is a anabaptist church in Lancaster, Pa that many on this site would say are legalistic. The men and women sit on opposite sides of the church [for modesty reasons], the women where head coverings, and they definately believe in literal interpretation on the bible. Many are former amish and menonite.You definately will not hear any tongues on Sunday Morning. Legallistic? you decide.
The women their just seem to radiate the glory of God. Their faces seem to al most glow. The men are leaders. They have 4 or so elders [pastors] and I believe all could drop dead and their would be 4 more equipped to step in their shoes. They have people from all over that move to attend this church. They don’t believe in building a huge church so every view years they send half a dozen families out somewhere to shart a new church. It would be unusual for one of their children to be lost to the world. Their youth have such a solid love for the Lord. Did I mention that this 1 church supports and sends several missionaries to Africa to preach the gospel.
I’m curious if some of the spiritual prophets here could say the same thing. Is is the norm for your youth to follow the Lord or leave home and serve the Devil. Do the women in your church radiate the glory of God even the onces who preach and prophesy against the scripture.
If we are going to talk about spirituallity and pleasing God I’ll throw my hat in with the “legallist” rather than a bunch of charismatics that consider their own opinion rather than the Word of God.
Speak in tongues all you want, prophesy all you want, hoop and holler and what ever and I agree with it all but if you can’t except God’s Word the way that He wrote it then you know nothing of Spirituality. It is nothing but an emotional illusion
If the above is in reference to what i said about what motherfntions had to say i mostly agree with the way Sarah said what she had to say. I sense a real good spirit about her and that is why i like what she had to say. It was more about how she went about it. There is a lot more then just reading the bible and telling others what you think it says. Being a woman and coming from her backround i comend her for her growth in Christ and enjoy what she had to say.
Tenderwarrior – I did mention scriptures that appear to contradict each other and resolved it with common sense – on the one hand women are allowed to pray and prophesy with head covering, on the other hand they must keep silent and ask questions of their husbands at home. Other scriptures talk about when they are to be silent – such as not to teach or have authority over men. When you think about it, It doesn’t seem that difficult, it’s quite practical.
We don’t ‘do’ church the way the bible instructs, if we were to, certain things like this would fall into place more easily. I understand and had my eyes opened to see that there is a lot of Jezebelic usurping of authority going on in churches nowadays, which is of course unbiblical and unchristlike, and has contributed to deception, IMO, but the answer to that is for all – men and women – to be transformed into the image of Christ.
On the subject of how to ‘do church’, I personally think we should be thinking more along the lines of prayer meetings than church ‘services’. It struck me recently that many of the prayer meetings I have participated in tend to just naturally fall into a more biblical pattern, and leaves me wondering why we bother with ‘services’ when these prayer meetings are so much more pleasing to the Father? My house shall be called a house of prayer, the bible says, not a house of musical entertainment and lengthy speeches by the resident celebrities up on stage. The churches are full of people who are not serious about the things of Christ, a ‘prayer meeting’ approach would also stop this kind of dilution, false brethren would tend not to attend, only serious seekers and true followers of the Lord. Imagine the power to move heaven if we became a house of prayer once again!
I agree with a lot of what MotherofNations mentioned, there are times when women must do the work of men, it’s not ideal but there is not much choice in the matter, just like in many situations in the natural – eg, in a war if the men are all lost in battle women have no choice but to fight on. I believe this was demonstrated in the life of Deborah, when there was a dearth of men spiritually mature enough to be chosen by the Lord to be a judge of Israel. Even their best man, Barak, wanted to hide behind her skirts in battle, trusting in flesh instead of the God of Israel.
watchful
More really good stuff as for me i am liking not only what is being said but the spirit it is being said in. I to have had more real fellowship in small groups then in what most past off as church services. I also have had many encounters with prophetic women who had a wonderful word from God and were not of that jezabel spirit i have seen on a lot of so called co pastor women who just cant bear to have a man in charge with out putting there two cents in. Women whom God has really chosen know who they are in Christ and so will you and they dont have to toot there horn He will do that for them.
Amen, David L – Maybe part of the problem is that people tend to think of a prophet as necessarily being an Isaiah or a Jeremiah – but Israel had many prophets who didn’t write a book of the bible and become world-famous, they were simply humble people who the Lord spoke a word through now and again, we don’t have to make it into a big thing, they are humble messengers, a gift to the body. I consider the most important thing is purity of character, holiness, not gender. We’ve already seen that this is scriptural. But if and when the need arises for an Isaiah or a Jeremiah or an Elijah to rise up, the Lord will do it in His sovereignty, and the hearts that are truly His would simply recognize it.
A lot of what was said on this forum in regards to legalism seems to fit the category of “better safe than sorry”. This is very understandable, seeing how much of today’s church has gone of the deep-end due to “cheap” grace and prosperity teachings taught by people who have turned a God-given calling into a career and paid position.
Blessings, and all 4 Jesus!
Mario
Ephesians 4 states the OFFICES that God has called some people to. These offices are irrevocable….IF CALLED BY GOD….NOT MAN.
A person called into the office of prophet will have prophecies from God often and continually. They may ALSO have any one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit manifesting through them (or multiple Gifts) on occasion, as the LORD WILLS.
These Gifts of the Holy Spirit are found in 1 Cor 12.
I agree that in today’s church, when the Holy Spirit chooses to prophesy through someone at a particular time and place designated by God, MOST people jump to the conclusion that it means they are a prophet/prophetess.
When God called people to the offices, He spoke to them directly and told them what their calling was. Then He led them into the fire/wilderness/the season of purification to PREPARE AND PURIFY THEM BEFORE THEY WENT PUBLIC.
That’s right Happy, Ephesians 4:11 states the offices that Jesus gave to His church and He did not make the offices gender specific.
Amen! We should always back up what we say with the word. Without the word, we open ourselves up to relying on ourselves.. and when we rely on ourselves we open up ourselves to the deceit of the wicked one. What I try to do before I speak out is compare what I think (my opinion/thoughts/my interpretations) to the direct word of God. Although Jesus spoke in many parables, the principles were easy to understand if you were spiritually “intune” so-to speak…THere is always a conflict between the flesh and spirit within us. Sometimes, deep down, we understand and know what God is telling us, but often, we do not want to obey it. It comes down to being able to get past yourself alltogether and just admit what God is saying..Naturally, we often suppress the spirit and truth of his word as it is easier to do so. ..While at the same time it comes all that much harder to admit to the spirit and word of God. So when we speak of our opinions and there has been a lot of that on the forums, opinions lead to differences, while the facts and truth of Christ and his word unify and bring us together to share what we have in common, Jesus and his word. One of my favorite scriptural passages is, “..and take every thought and make it/submit it to the obedience of Christ..”
I believe if all believers would do this, we would be using more of our time together sharing what God is speaking to us, sharing testimonies of what he’s done through us and for others in the week and so forth. We would be on fire!! Wah -hoo!! And the lost will come to Christ when they see the body of Christ as one,, set apart only to the Lord in words, lifestyle and example of Christ…Then we would see true revival in this land….
I hope I will remember to log in first when I come to this site again. Please forgive me for forgetting. Please pray for me, sometimes I feel my brains have fallen out! Ha ha!
Mario
How many prophetic words do we know of that Jonah was given in his entire lifetime?
One?
Situational ethics teaches that the situation dictates what is right and wrong rather than there being any absolutes.
Christianity teaches that God’s word is the absolute, which establishes right and wrong.
We can never allow our circumstances to over ride what God’s word says.
May 27, 2010
David Larson
I have copied a portion of your previous post of May 24. In it you said:
“After all is not a true prophet just saying waht they here God say well if Christ is in you that is all of us to some degree”
Am I wrong to understand you to be saying that if Christ is in us, to some degree there is a true prophet in each of us?
I have copied my response to your May 24 Post. In it I said:
“Not all people have the gift of prophecy. The blble says so in 1 Cor 12:29. All Christians who have been born again and have the Holy Spirit in control can be led by the Spirit in what they say, but that is not the gift of prophecy.”
While all can be led by the Spirit in what we say, not all can prophesy. I simply wanted to clarify this point. If it is not clear, soon everyone believes that they are a prophet of God.
True prophecy is (God’s choice):
1- God chooses a prophet to speak through
2- God chooses a person or group of persons to receive the prophecy
3- God chooses the words that He wants the prophet to speak
4- God gives explicit instructions to the prophet as to when and how the prophecy will be delivered.
5- God is in complete control, not the prophet; the prophet is simply obedient to God.
Things that can go wrong (man’s choice):
1- A false prophet can claim that God spoke to him/her
2- The prophet can be disobedient and speak the prophecy to the wrong receiptant
3- The prophet can be disobedient and change the words, or substitute his/her own
4- The prophet can be disobedient and determine the when and how themselves
5- In these cases God is not in complete control, and at some point there is disobedience to God. .
True prophecy originates in the mind of God.
False prophecy originates in the mind of man.
If I in some way misunderstood what you said, please accept my sincere apology. My goal is not to cause division in the body, but unity. This unity from God will only come as we all are under the complete and continuous control of the Holy Spirit of God.
Mario
What a new testament prophet looks like should not be judged by what you see in church.
When we want to know what an old testament prophet looks like, we look in the Word of God
We must do the same when we want to know what a new testament prophet “should” look like.
Good word Gary Simpson, thank you.
Gary
The fact of the matter any one who is truly born again has the Spirit of Christ and that is the Spirit of prophecy. Who do you think Spoke to and through the prophets. Any person who is indwelt by the Spirit of God could be used to speak the words of God. All prophecy is a human speaking the heart of God.
This is possible for any born again believer. If you dont know this then grow up.It is to long that people try to put a muzzle on the body of Christ because they do not know how to see things correctly. We have missed so much because most will not listen to some one unless they think they have a title. Jesus himself said that the least one in the kingdom that is all believers is greater then the greatest prophet that ever lived. Not my words the words of the son of God.
Gary,
This is from “The Gospel of the Kingdom,” #254, May 2010, http://www.kingdomgospel.org. Hope this helps… Below are words of Pat Savas…
There is something that Jesus shared with me very simply and specifically. He impressed it upon me until I got it with clarity. I was wondering how it is we are to have an impact on this world, etc. I was considering the ‘five-fold ministry’ of the Church Age (i.e. “…some as pastors, teachers, etc.). This is what He gave me:
The Church Age is over.
The New Order is this:
ALL will know ME. Because,
I have come again…
To fill ALL with Myself.
I asked: “What is my role in this?”
He replied, “To simply allow Me to be you.”
Tenderwarrior
Being legalistic is obedience to the written Word of God. In Exodus 24:7 we read:
7 Then he (Moses) took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the LORD has said; we will obey.” This is legalism.
Doing everything that the LORD has said in the Book, be it just the Book of the Covenant, or the whole Bible, is legalism. It is what I will do for God based upon what I understand the book requires of me. I am being led by the book.
In Contrast to this, we are offered God’s grace. In 2 Cor 3:6 we read:
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. The New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant.
The Old Testament (covenant) was legalistic in that it required adherence (obedience) to law or to a code; just do what the book said to do.
The New Testament (covenant) does not require adherence (obedience) to law or a code, but instead requires adherence (obedience) to the Holy Spirit who wrote the law. As we are led by the Holy Spirit of God, scripture promises us that we will fulfill all of the righteous requirements of the law (Rom 8:4).
As we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the desires of our sinful nature (Gal 5:16).
The secret of the abundant Christian life is to allow the Spirit of God to control our lives to such an extent that we only do those things that He wants us to do. With Him in control, I will not do anything wrong because He doesn’t want to do any thing wrong, and He is in control of my life. Thus, His life becomes my life.
Romans 8:14 says that those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Jews are led by the Book.
Christians are led by the Holy Spirit of God.
David Larson
Your latest post says:
“The fact of the matter any one who is truly born again has the Spirit of Christ and that is the Spirit of prophecy.”
My bible says:
REV 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Which is right?
Your post?
or
The Bible?
Is not the testimony of Jesus the spirit of prophecy?
Gary Simpson asked:
How many prophetic words do we know of that Jonah was given in his entire lifetime?
One?
—- —
My reply:
There are at least two mentioned in scripture. As well as the book of Jonah, he is mentioned in 2 Kings.
2 Kings 14:24-26 He did evil in the eyes of the LORD and did not turn away from any of the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit. He was the one who restored the boundaries of Israel from Lebo Hamath to the Sea of the Arabah, in accordance with the word of the LORD, the God of Israel, spoken through his servant Jonah son of Amittai, the prophet from Gath Hepher.
Tyrone Palmer
Ephesians 4:11 goes on to list the gifts that Jesus (v8) gave to men. Saying it is not gender specific because it is not specificly prohibited to women here is just wrong, because it is gender specific elsewhere.
1- It destroys the natural order that God established in creation. He created Adam first and then created Eve to be a helper (not leader) for Adam.
Note: The fall of man was because Eve abandoned her role as Adam’s helper, and assumed his leadership role. It is always disastrous for any woman to abandon the role that God created her to fill, and assume another.
2- When God established the Old Covenant Priesthood, no women were listed in the priestly line. While they were allowed in a limited way to participate in the worship of their God, it would have been an abomination for a woman to offer a blood sacrifice in the temple to God. This was solely the role of men, and then only as specificly selected by God.
3- When God established the New Covenant Church, things did not change because God does not change. Women were allowed to participate in the church, but again in a limited role. God retained His natural order when He said, The man is the head of the woman as Christ is the head of the church. He also said that women are to be silent in the churches (1 Cor 14:34), which makes it hard for a woman to preach or prophesy in the church. He also said that it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church (v35). If you tend to ignore this exhortation, Paul reminded them (and us) that this was a command from the Lord (v37), and there would be consequences for not obeying it. Remember again that we don’t look to the church for what the church should look like, but instead to the truth of God’s Word.
While some women throughout time have been allowed by God to prophesy, I know of none that assumed a leadership role in the church or the temple. Show me if you can find one.
Remember also that both King Saul’s soldiers, and later King Saul himself prophesied with the prophets, but none of these men of Saul, or Saul himself, held the office of prophet or prophesied in the temple.
4- The bottom line is that biblically, women never have, and never will have a leadership role in the church. This reverses God’s established natural order. They definitely have a role in the church, but it is found as they are in submission to their husbands.
Remember: Those who resist this biblical truth are in truth resisting the Spirit who gave it.
David Larsen
While your thoughts about the Holy Spirit being in every believer,
and that the Holy Spirit is the vehicle by which prophecy comes to a prophet,
and that therefore any believer should be able to prophesy
may be a logical and common sense conclusion,
but, it contradicts the Word of God and is therefore wrong.
God’s ways are not man’s ways.
God has chosen instead to funnel His wisdom to His believers (us) not by our mind (which uses reason and common sense), but by His Spirit to our born again spirit.
If I try to understand the things of God using my mind (reason & common sense) it simply seems foolish(1 Cor 2:14). The things of God are spiritually discerned.
Robert Winkler Burke
If you expect to convince me that you know what you are talking about, you had better begin by getting your ammo from the Word of God, and not from “The Gospel of the Kingdom” #254.
Sounds to me like Pat Savas… has been smoking something?
Show me any biblical references that state that;
1- The church age is over
2- The new order is this….
3-I have come again…etc
This is a Christian discussion which uses the Bible as our source document. Your document (“The Gospel of the Kingdom” #254) has no validity here as a standard of truth.
Show us truth from God’s Word, The Bible.
Onesimus
There are actually several times that God spoke to Jonah.
1- JNH 1:1 The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”
2- JNH 3:1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah a second time: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.”
3- JNH 4:4 But the LORD replied, “Have you any right to be angry?”
4- JNH 4:9 But God said to Jonah, “Do you have a right to be angry about the vine?”
“I do,” he said. “I am angry enough to die.”
5- 2 Kings 14:25 – 25 He was the one who restored the boundaries of Israel from Lebo Hamath to the Sea of the Arabah, in accordance with the word of the LORD, the God of Israel, spoken through his servant Jonah son of Amittai, the prophet from Gath Hepher.
But, you are absolutely right, there were at least two, not just one. Thank you for sharing your knowledge of the Word of God and allowing me to learn.
Gary
Sounds to me like you are the only one here who knows God and we should all bow down and kiss your big toe.
It seems you have a problem with something everone has to say
It also seems that not only do you twist what most of the people
one this formun have to say you also twist what the bible has to say to make your self sound like the only one who truly knows what is going on.
As for my self i would ask you to refrain from using my name in your correcting any and all that you seem to think it is your sole duty to do.
Do you work for Andrew has he or someone else gave you the job of setting us all straight with your brand of religion?
So in the future if you have a thought about something i have said try to voice your opiion with out atacking myself or others that are here.
Because the one thing i clearly know from scripture is the accuser of the brethern is not the Spirit of Christ.
And i believe we all know who that really is.
Heidic144 wrote:
Gary simpson also wrote:
“However: When a prophet of God speaks a prophecy from God, it must be letter perfect. Since God is never wrong, His prophecy will never be wrong.”
By “letter perfect” can you please clarify what you mean Gary?
I will try:
To grasp a partial understanding of the holiness and perfection of God, I like to go to Isaiah 6:1-5 which is a story of Isaiah’s encounter with God.
ISA 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”
ISA 6:4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
ISA 6:5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”
Apart from God’s intervention, Isaiah, or anybody else could not exist in the presence of a holy God. Isaiah immediately recognized his sinfulness when he came into the presence of our holy God. Immediately, God saved him by removing his guilt and sin.
When we receive a prophecy from God, it comes from the mind of the Father. We are actually receiving a portion of the nature and perfection which is only from God. It is absolutely perfect, holy, true, and pure. Nothing imperfect, or unholy, or untrue, or impure can exist in it. It is as perfect as is the Word of God.
When God chooses a person for the Gift of prophecy, it is not without first changing their heart (Exek 36:26-27). He gives them a love for His written Word, His communicated word (prophecy and tongues), and He gives them a awesome responsibility to deliver it thus:
1 Peter 4:11 – 11 If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God.
In my meager experience, when God chooses to allow me to prophesy, I am in awe of both the God who gave it, and the words that He chooses to allow me to speak. It is absolutely unthinkable for me to introduce my sinful thoughts into God’s holy and righteous truth. I must be faithful to my God to speak them as one speaking the very words of God.
That is what “letter perfect” means to me. I hope this has answered your question.
David Larsen
Your last response sounds like it is coming from a wounded warrior.
I have nothing against you personally. I mostly respond to posts that do not agree with what the Bible says. The Blble is God’s truth, and anything that disagrees with the Bible is error.
Stick with the truth of God’s Word, and we will get along fine.
I love you as a brother
Gary
How would it be possible for me to stick to what you call truth.
Then i would have to see everthing the way that you do.
I thought that God sent His Spirit to Guide us into all truth now you are telling me that when ever i write something you are the one who tells us if it is true or not. Did you ever stop to think that you might see things not quite right? Did you ever stop to think that maybe just maybe i dont quite know all there is to know yet?
Truth never changes but i would hope we do. Instead of correcting everone on a personal level why dont you just state your thought in writing with out making it look like you have the only answers and others are all wrong. Your statment i mostly respond to posts that do not agree with what the bible says.
That shoud read with the way i read the bible.
If i spent all my time trying to correct everyone i didnt think lined up with scripture the way i see it i would be typing all day long because it would be never ending and something i am not prepared to undretake and i do not see this as any ones job but Gods. Even Andrew who runs the sight is not running around like the police and i have to commend him for it.
And by the way Gary i am not some wonded warrior and i love you to. Your brother in Christ Dave
Gary, let’s see if this can STRETCH… your mind, and BREAK some rigid-righteous adhesions off the old soul…. and BEND your spirit like a GREEN, not dry, tree!
This is a three-dimensional poem, designed to help think about ego vs. God-in-you!
A Leaf in a Stream
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 11/22/09
I saw God this morning,
In the stream behind my house!
He was in a submerged red leaf,
So beautiful, in my stream of wows!
I’ve seen ten-thousand dollar coffee tables,
That capture under glass: a stream,
With Fall-colored leaves and fish,
Like this morning’s captured dream.
If I’m humble and quiet,
I see and love God in everything!
My neighbors walk by,
I hope they see God in my stream!
My coffee table is just a coffee table,
My stream is just a stream,
Am I crazy or am I sane,
For seeing God in everything?
There are I-above-all-other-I’s,
That see no God, no how in anything,
They hold no fish, no leaves, no water,
These coffee-less think themselves: everything.
How can the quiet, humbled, God-imbued,
Survive the ego leviathans of id?
The I-AM-in’s can’t fight the I-above-all-I’s,
No, the I-AM-in’s must remain hid.
The I-AM-in’s remain hid,
Until needed,
Thus will Satan’s dominion,
Be unseated.
A leaf in a stream saw God,
In a man today,
They winked at each other,
Then drifted away.
Robert Winkler Burke,
You quoted Pat Savas as saying:
The Church Age is over.
The New Order is this:
ALL will know ME. Because,
I have come again…
To fill ALL with Myself.
I asked: “What is my role in this?”
He replied, “To simply allow Me to be you.”
Robert, I urge you to throw off this teaching. I have a friend who sincerely believes this teaching as put forth by Harold Camping and he’s been quite unwilling to give it up even though Mr. Camping’s book, “88 Reasons Why Jesus Will Return in 1988” proved to be utterly wrong. He then predicted 1994, and we all know how that turned out. I asked my friend, “Will you stop following this guy and his teachings if they fail to come to pass?” I would hope anyone would answer yes, but he is still believing to this day what this man teaches. Camping is one of the major teachers of the belief that the “church age is over”, and has certainly been one the biggest disseminators of this false idea.
Think about it for a second: the church is God’s “called out ones”, the Ekklēsia, we’re still here aren’t we? How is the church age over when the Ekklēsia is still here on earth? People like Camping point to the apostasy and lukewarm condition of the church and say, “See! Jesus spit them out of His mouth!” The truth is, Jesus loves His Church and is calling us to repent:
“Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.” (Revelation 3:19)
He then goes on to give us an invitation to dine with Him! So as bad as things might be with the Church today, His goal is restoration, and His call to repentance is proof of His love.
Also, think about what Pat Savas is saying:
I asked: “What is my role in this?”
He replied, “To simply allow Me to be you.”
Jesus does not want to BE me! What a contorted statement! It is certainly not the same thing as Paul saying, “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20)
Also, I mean no disrespect, but as one who came out of the New Age Movement to faith in Jesus Christ your poem above is ringing a lot of alarm bells.
Praise God Robert, wonderful poem, that edified my soul, thank you.
Ephesians 4:11-13
“And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;”
Gary: The New Testament scriptures do not say specifically that He Himself gave men to be apostles, men to be prophets, etc… but “He Himself gave some” Meaning Jesus can choose whoever He wants too for an office of His church. It’s not about gender, but the grace of God and the Holy Spirit working inside the earthen vessel. Also He gave five offices “for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry”, Meaning if you are called to an office, whether male or female, we are to work together to build up and edify the body of Christ. We are all ONE in Christ, united by the Spirit, (IF one has His Spirit indwelling them) there is neither male nor female. It’s NOT about us as individual’s but the body of Christ as a whole, we are all members of one another. Paul considered himself the least of all the saints! He was not worried about leading a church, but presenting every believer as a chaste virgin to Christ and there were many men and women of God who helped him in his ministry.
Let’s look at who Paul was talking too in his epistle to the Corinthians.
1st Cor. 1:1-2
“Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:”
We are not the church of God which is at Corinth, saints of God who lived over two thousand years ago, who were still being transitioned from the law of Moses to the law of the Spirit and the New Covenant. Yes all scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, correcting ect.. but Paul wrote this epistle to the believer’s in Corinth who had specific needs that he was addressing.
1st Cor. 14:34-17
“Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you (Corinthians) are the commandments of the Lord.”
These words for the Corinthian saints were given as a commandment of the Lord for them, NOT us today. Just as Jesus corrected the seven churches in Asia, and told John to write what he saw and heard in a book and send it to them, NOT us! We can learn from every scripture from Genesis to Revelation but we cannot make their reality ours today.
Let us consider one another better than ourselves, and spur one another on towards love and good deeds. Time is short and the harvest is near!
Tyrone,
You said, “These words for the Corinthian saints were given as a commandment of the Lord for them, NOT us today.” If you use that reasoning, you’d have to say 1 & 2 Timothy was written for Timothy, and NOT us today. The same goes for 1 & 2 Thessalonians, that was written for THEM and not us today. The same for Titus, Colossians, Philippians… you wouldn’t end up with much for us today if you reason like that!
Do you think the early church liked what Paul had to say about this subject of women’s roles in the church any better than some do today? I don’t think so! Why else would he write, ”If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.”
Many believers didn’t like it then, and many don’t like it now, but Paul says his teaching is “the Lord’s command”.
Also, note what Paul says, “As in ALL THE CONGREGATIONS of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches.” So even if you want to use your argument that Paul was writing to the Corinthians only about this, it’s plain that what he wrote them applied to ALL the churches.
Mike
1 Corinthians 14:33-38:
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.
1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
Gary Simpson
I’m not sure your answer is even worth a reply.
Your said “Being legalistic is obedience to the written Word of God.”
That anyone would think let alone say such a thing is amazing.
Obeying the things that God has written to us is legalism? Sure the Holy Spirit will lead us to obey–obey what? the Word. The Word says “flee fornication”. Should I wait for some mystical Holy Ghost experience before I decide to obey this command? Or can’t I just read the “written Word” and say fornication does not please God so I’m not going to do it. You remind me of one of those people who is full of sin and no one can tell you any different because you have a special revelation from the Spirit. “For this is the love of God that we keep his commandments and His commandments are not grievious” 1John 5:3 All I can say is quit holding the truth in unrighteousness before it is too late.
You said “Doing everything that the LORD has said in the Book, be it just the Book of the Covenant, or the whole Bible, is legalism.”
“In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”John 1:1;14 Jesus is the Word. “The bible is Jesus in print” [Angus Buchan] If you can not love God’s word then you have no love for Jesus Christ who was the Word in flesh and is the Word in print.
I fear brother that the spirit of anti-christ is in you. Turn and repent because Jesus is merciful. Continue in this folly and the Lord of Glory will be to you the God of vengence to you. “Why will you die says the Lord”
Mike: Read your own words. The epistles WERE written for the 1st century churches and specific brothers! Is my name Timothy? No. Did Paul personally teach you and me? No. Did he establish a church in your hometown? If he did then I would like to meet him and ask him what it feels like to be over two thousand years old!
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,
2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith:
2 To Timothy, a beloved son:
4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith:
To Philemon our beloved friend and fellow laborer, 2 to the beloved Apphia, Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house:
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse:
Ect…
That is not my reasoning, that’s what the scripture says! Paul wrote every epistle while he lived for the 1st century churches and specific brothers in the Lord that he personally converted, not us today, that is very clear. Like I said, every scripture is inspired by God as 2nd Tim. 3:16 says but can we literally apply every single word of scripture to us today? Of course not! That would mean we are bewitched as the Galatians and turned away to another gospel, Fornicators like some of the Corinthian believer’s were, ect….
I used to think every word of scripture applied to me when I was a hypocritical professing Christian until Jesus baptized me with the Holy Spirit, then I understood how wrong I was and that I had never known the One True and Living God that I professed to know. It was all in my carnal mind, now the Lord is truly in my heart! May He be forever praised and exalted!
If you literally apply what Paul wrote to Timothy in 1st Tim. 2:12 to every woman in every congregation today you would have a very boring and one sided worship assembly! We might as well be in Pakistan or Iraq and cover the women up from head to toe, lol, or just let them sit there and be silent while the men do everything. Why would God even speak through Joel the prophet and then have Peter quote him?
Acts 2:17-18
“And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.”
Tyrone Palmer
Amen brother you have a insight and maturity in Christ that is rare and refershing.
The Word! The Word! The Word!
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 10/27/08
TV Preachers do most everything today,
But recanting,
Because, The Word! The Word! The Word!
They’re chanting,
Thinking like scribes and Pharisees,
They’re lacking,
Nothing at all: But actually they may lack,
God’s backing.
This is how preachers of the word,
Become demented,
While a perfect image of themselves,
Becomes cemented,
They’re gone off on one strange bit,
Or another,
And become glued to the strangeness,
Like a brother.
So it’s prosperity unto greed,
They don’t see,
Or it’s rapture unto fear,
Mostly likely,
Or intellectualism unto idolatry,
The poor fools,
Or jabberwocky prophesy babbling,
Such ugly jewels.
But who can say,
Stop! You’re Wrong!
They’ll only say,
You don’t belong!
So they stay bent,
Until that day,
Of the Lord’s wrath,
Shows the way.
To them God is just who,
They say He is,
He’s obedient to what they say,
And only that biz,
When God tries to wake them up,
Slap them around,
They won’t have it, They say it is,
Satan they’ve found.
So they say they only believe,
The word,
But when God manifests, they
Haven’t heard,
Their minds are actually not Christ like,
No, not at all,
Immerse yourself like they command,
And you’ll fall.
They are stuck in an ugly, ungodly,
Endless loop,
They believe a strange word without,
God’s fruit,
Of correction, humility and quick,
Death to pride,
Dead-word ministers only with Satan,
Do abide.
Andrew
What is your take on these folks that do not believe the scripture is to be taken literally [in most places] and that the scripture was not written for us today! Maybe I am out their but these things break my heart. How rampant is such thinking?
It seems like their is either dead letter or some whacked out spiritualism. How can we ever be revived.
Deeply distressed!
It is not that the scripture is not for us today. But we miss so much about what is really being said by thinking that it is for only us today. We tend to think like people in what ever country we come from. In the case of the good old USA that thinking is far from the intention of the writers of the bible guess what there was not even a USA back then. When looking at the bible as letters written to a certain people which they were you really begin to see how great our God is. I was taliking to a brother the other day who was a elder at a local church and i said to him you would be amazed at how few christians know any thing about the destruction of jersulem and he said he knew nothing about it himself. I told him to find out some about it and then look at the book of Revelation in the lite of it and that book would open up in a way he had never seen before. Because it was written to a people who were about to see one of the greastest blood baths that has ever taken place. I believe in the above some are just trying to get us to see that there is a point to be made when we see the bible from a point of view of who it was written to and i would agree. And yes it is for us today also.
I agree David, my point is we cannot literally apply every word of scripture to ourselves today, we are not the same Christians, same culture, same circumstances, ect…. I have received many revelations from the Holy Spirit through the scriptures, which has opened the eyes of my understanding, and kept me from being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine like I had been while studying the bible with my carnal mind. I have also received word’s of knowledge from the Spirit that agree with scripture, but was not word for word. How can we understand something from the Holy Spirit without the Spirit? It’s impossible! We would be ever learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Again I believe whole heartedly in 2nd Tim 3:16-17
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
If anyone receives a word directly from God and writes it down, that is scripture. Scripture simply means inspired writings.
But the written word, (scripture) cannot replace the Word of God who is Jesus Christ and if He is in you, then the word is in you. Where we go, there He is. The Old or New Testament apostles and prophets didn’t walk around with a bible in their hands and quote from it. They received the word of God directly from the Holy Spirit and they spoke what they heard, it was written down at the moment of reception in some cases, or much later like the gospels. Even John said that every thing Jesus said and done was not written down and the world could not contain the books that would be written! (John 21:25) Imagine that! We only have a fraction of all that was said and done throughout the three and a half year ministry of Jesus.
Hebrews 8:10-11
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
God writes His laws in our hearts and minds spiritualy by the Holy Spirit. What would happen if our bibles were suddenly taken away? What about those who don’t even read them, but depend on man to tell them about God? In many countries it’s illegal to even have a bible or profess Christianity, what are we gonna do when this comes to America? You will either have the word of God inside you or you’re gonna fall away.
1 John 2:27
“But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.”
How Shall We Ask?
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 11/14/08
How shall we ask of Jesus’ return?
Will it be literal?
Will it be spiritual?
Or in so asking, whom do we spurn?
Perhaps we spurn Jesus, who already comes,
And indwelt saints of past,
And indwelt saints now fast,
Who hear and obey to get God’s work done.
If we ask when the return of God will happen,
We’re assuming Jesus tarries,
While His beloved He marries,
And abides in, and lives in faith un-slackened.
Think what you want and live with your thought,
Believe Jesus comes quickly in remnant,
Or ask why God keeps Himself so distant,
Thus spiritually, we do what we can’t or ought.
This is a vision I had a few years ago about how and why all the different functions : “apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers” are to operate in the body of Christ. working TOGETHER as a TEAM:
http://keeperofthevineyard.blogspot.com/2010/05/vision-of-barbershop-quartet-and-fifth.html
It is sad that the false “profits’ (no that is not a typo) are promoting the different functions in the body as something high and elevated, when God wants the different “functions’, or “offices’, to operate together in co-operation and no competition in the body of Christ.
This includes prophets. The false profits have a very skewed and lopsided view of what prophets and apostles are. They parade themselves like kings, when a servant is a more accurate picture. And this does not mean you walk around in sackcloth and ashes either.
David, David, did you read what you wrote here?:
“Do you work for Andrew has he or someone else gave you the job of setting us all straight with your brand of religion?
So in the future if you have a thought about something i have said try to voice your opinon with out atacking myself or others that are here”
read it again please and ask if any of it applies to your post? if you are reviled (did he revile you) revile not again I admit that i stand beside a brand of religion it can be found at http://www.org.au I am not ashamed to say that .
I /we believe their is only One Way.
We also believe we know what “it” is . forgive the word it.
We are constantly learning – growing in Him. in just 60 odd years He has taught us much and we have had to abandon doctrine that we had wrong search the scripture and replace it with new .
But we do know we are: Not the only ones.
We see our job at RCI as to presenting and promoting the Head of our church, “This Jesus” and not another. Not our “brand name” and i wish to apply that same principle to myself.
And Tyrone. “Mike: Read your own words. The epistles WERE written for the 1st century churches and specific brothers! Is my name Timothy? No. Did Paul personally teach you and me? No. Did he establish a church in your hometown? If he did then I would like to meet him and ask him what it feels like to be over two thousand years old!” you are right to a point however the to all the saints has got to include you how for instance would we present day saints now how to operate the gifts correct;y if the Corinthians were not making mistakes and Paul had not written to correct them.
This epistle is indeed as much ours as it was theirs,
And again sadly the different opinions, on the gifts, on this post, illustrate the need for sound scriptural doctrine to be applied.
.If i can not learn something, and maybe provide something from these posts, then i am wasting your/my time here.
I expect to be questioned , critiqued, it will help hone me, and I welcome it.
Michael
Tyrone, You said something that is very serious and I just want to make sure that I’m understanding you. You said:
“If anyone receives a word directly from God and writes it down, that is scripture. Scripture simply means inspired writings.”
Most Christians when they talk of “scripture” believe it is a COMPLETED WORK, from Genesis to Revelation, Is that what you believe? I’d appreciate it if you could explain a little bit more what you’re trying to say by this statement . Thanks!
Mike
Mike Helms: If you read my entire post I explained right after, what I meant by that statement. If God speaks to an apostle or prophet today and tells him or her to write down what I tell you, is that not scripture? Is that written word inspired by God? Yes it is. Simple really.
Strong’s Greek Lexicon:
“Scripture”:
1121. gramma, gram’-mah from 1125; a writing, i.e. a letter, note, epistle, book, etc.; plural learning:–bill, learning, letter, scripture, writing, written.
1124. graphe, graf-ay’ a document, i.e. holy Writ (or its contents or a statement in it):–scripture.
Tyrone, I did read your entire post, and I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, that’s why I asked you to explain yourself more.
It seems that you are saying that if you, or as you say, “an apostle or prophet today” believes God speaks to them, and they write it down, it is on the same level as the bible, i.e., the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation? Is THAT what you are saying?
Mike
Mike: I thought I explained what I received from the Holy Spirit quite well in my previous posts, but here’s a bit more.
God still speaks to His chosen vessels today, and if He gives them a word and they write it down, that word is an inspired writing, (scripture). Is He not the same God that spoke through the apostles and prophets that are recorded in scripture contained in the bible?
All they did was write down what He said and what the Holy Spirit inspired them to write, the prophecies, the epistles, the gospels, revelations, testimonies, ect…
Why wouldn’t a word given to a true apostle or prophet today by the same God, written down, be as scripture recorded in the bible?
Michael
If your above post is speaking to me i have no idea what you are talking about.
Tyrone Palmer
I would not waste my time most will not hear what you are saying and even fewer would understand. Most here worship a book and that tells me that you better not talk against the book or even dare say that the book is really not the place where God really is. Seems like when Jesus was here he ran into the same problem they were reading the book but did not know the author.
The word of God was speaking to them but they thought there life came from a book. Some even act like the apostles were so special and see them selves as second class citizens. You know what is funny is that 2000 years ago most people who call them selves christian thought paul and the boys were a joke. Near the end of his life paul said most had left him. I know not any one here would ever do that though. We treat each other like trash but we would never do that to paul or Jesus. Funny thing is when we do we are.
Hey Mike, as me and my wife were discussing the scriptures she received a word from the Holy Spirit. “Did Jesus write anything?” Wow! Now that is something to meditate on.
David, that is so true my brother, I was just saying the same thing to my wife! but praise God He has a chosen remnant in these last days that He has put His Spirit into. Christ in us brother, the hope of glory!
The Lord Jesus will only return for those who are faithful to His Word until the very end.
“I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.” (Ps 138:2)
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (King James Version)
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Definition Of Lust – The Love Of Unrighteousness
2 Thessalonians 2:12. The definition of lust includes loving things that are not of God.
You lust when you have pleasure in something that does not line up with the Word of God. When you partake in the pleasures of unrighteousness, you are rejecting God’s truth
(2 Thessalonians 2:12, “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”,).
God asks us to be vessels of sanctification and honour, and not dishonour ourselves and God by lusting after the unrighteousness
There is NO room for following “anointed ones” without question here AT ALL.
THE BIBLE WARNS US THAT THERE ARE MANY FALSE CHRIST’s. FAITH IN A FALSE CHRIST WILL RESULT IN A FALSE SALVATION. THAT IS THE CLEAR WARNING OF SCRIPTURE.
UNITY IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD and NO amount of prayer or blind allegiance to an anointed one can substitute for FAITHFULNESS to the Word of God ALONE.
ONLY THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY.
I am deeply concerned at the unbiblical, antibiblical and superbiblical sentiments expressed by people obviously misrepresenting themselves as christians to the scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive and thereby influencing the extent and scale of apostasy so evident in the “christian” church today.
The subject of Babylon in the Scripture is one of the prominent themes of the Bible beginning in Genesis 10, where the city of Babel is first mentioned, with continued references throughout the Scriptures climaxing here in the book of Revelation.
From these various passages, it becomes clear that Babylon in Scripture is the name for a great system of religious error. Babylon is actually a counterfeit or pseudo religion which plagued Israel in the Old Testament as well as the church in the New Testament, and which, subsequent to apostolic days, has had a tremendous influence in moving the church from biblical simplicity to apostate confusion.
In keeping with the satanic principle of offering a poor substitute for God’s perfect plan, Babylon is the source of counterfeit religion sometimes in the form of pseudo Christianity, sometimes in the form of pagan religion. Its most confusing form, however, is found in Romanism. In the Scriptures themselves, though many of these facts are not mentioned, there are a number of allusions to the conflict of the true faith with this pseudo religion.
Ezekiel protests against the ceremony of weeping for Tammuz in Ezekiel 8:14. Jeremiah mentions the heathen practices of making cakes for the queen of heaven (Jer. 7:18) and offering incense to the queen of heaven (Jer. 44:17-19, 25). The worship of Baal, characteristic of pagan religion in Canaan, was another form of this same mystery religion originating in Babylon. Baal is considered identical to Tammuz. The doctrines of the mystery religions of Babylon seem to have permeated the ancient world, giving rise to countless mystery religions, each with its cult and individual beliefs offering a counterfeit religion and a counterfeit god in opposition to the ONE true God REVEALED IN THE SCRIPTURES.
Babylon as an evil woman is portrayed in the prophecy of Zechariah 5:1-11 where the woman of verse 7 is described as personifying wickedness in verse 8.
The Babylonian cult eventually made its way to other cities including Pergamos, the site of one of the seven churches of Asia. The chief priests of the Babylonian cult wore crowns in the form of the head of a fish, in recognition of Dagon the fish god, with the title “Keeper of the Bridge,” that is, the “bridge” between man and Satan, imprinted on the crowns. The Roman equivalent of the title, Pontifex Maximus, was used by the Caesars and later Roman emperors, and was also adopted as the title for the bishop of Rome. In the early centuries of the church in Rome, incredible confusion arose; and attempts were made to combine some of the features of the mystery religion of Babylon with the Christian faith, a confusion which has continued down to the present day.
In this chapter in Revelation, the last stage of counterfeit religion is revealed as it will be in existence in the period before the return of the Lord to earth.
It is a sad commentary on contemporary Christendom that it shows an overwhelming desire to return to Rome in spite of Rome’s evident apostasy from true biblical Christianity. In fact, modern liberalism has far outdone Rome in its departure from the theology of the early church, thus has little to lose by a return to Romanism. Apostasy, which is seen in its latent form today, will flower in its ultimate form in this future superchurch which will apparently engulf all Christendom in the period after the rapture of the church.
“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV)
In 1948 a movement was born that has become the foundation of the great apostasy that the Apostle
Paul warned us would come prior to the return of our Lord. Known as the New Order of the Latter Rain or
just the Latter Rain Movement its influence has steadily grown within the Pentecostal and Charismatic
Churches since 1948. Today, through the influence of various “revivals” its leaven is spreading even further
into the Evangelical world.
An apostasy or “falling away” is essentially a rebellion of God’s people against His Word.
Rebelling against the New Testament picture of the Church in the last days as a despised remnant of
the faithful holding on until the rapture, they began to develop a heretical doctrine of a triumphant Church –
conquering the world and bringing in the kingdom of Christ. The first time the Church adopted such a
theology it resulted in the development of Roman Catholicism and ushered in the Dark Ages. This time the
result will be much the same but of a much shorter duration. It will produce the one-world ecumenical
church, “The Great Harlot” that will triumph for a short time under Anti-Christ – “Drunken with the blood of
the saints and martyrs of Jesus.”
It came to be taught that the “Latter Rain” revival of 1948 was to be the first in a series of
“restorational moves of God” that would restore to the Church all of the truths that Satan had “robbed” her
of. The five-fold ministries of apostles and prophets would also be restored to the church. These restored
“apostles” and “prophets” would lead the Church into “present truth” and the “last great moves of God.”
Eventually when the Church was mature enough the “rapture” would occur. But the rapture of the Latter
Rain would be a much different rapture than the Church had ever taught before. It would be a “spiritual”
coming of Christ into His Church, His “corporate body.” A “corporate anointing.” The saints would be
“glorified”, even “deified” – right here on this earth. This overcoming army of saints believes it will go
forth conquering and triumphing over all of it’s enemies in the Great Tribulation. When they are done Christ
will be “released from the heavens”, to come and take control of the kingdom they have established.
This doctrine is known as the “Manifest Sons of God” or “Sonship” and has spread throughout the
Evangelical Church through the Charismatic and Kingdom/Dominion Movements. The Latter Rain
“revivals” that are occurring in Toronto, Pensecola, and various other places are popularizing and spreading
this heresy at an alarming rate. It is known popularly today as “Joel’s Army”. Thousands of Christians are
coming into a strong delusion because they did not receive the love of the truth. While they may have
received the truth, they did not have a love for it and have therefore fallen away from it. They are trading
their blessed hope for an earthly delusion.
To Tenderwarrior, Wayne, Tyrone, David Larsen, and Robert Winkler Burke
Tenderwarrior:
You are right, it is VERY distressing to see what’s going on in this forum with some of these posters who do not believe God’s Word is for today, or that they are free to cherry pick which parts are or aren’t for today, or who seem to have a disdain for those who have a love for His Word, or who even believe that words THEY write are on the level of the bible! I find it VERY disturbing that this is what we’re finding on a website about revival, biblical repentance and reformation.
Wayne:
Thank you for posting this:
“I am deeply concerned at the unbiblical, antibiblical and superbiblical sentiments expressed by people obviously misrepresenting themselves as christians to the scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive and thereby influencing the extent and scale of apostasy so evident in the “christian” church today.”
Tyrone:
You would do very well to read what Wayne wrote in his post just before this one. I asked you this:
“It seems that you are saying that if you, or as you say, “an apostle or prophet today” believes God speaks to them, and they write it down, it is on the same level as the bible, i.e., the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation? Is THAT what you are saying?”
You answered me this:
“God still speaks to His chosen vessels today, and if He gives them a word and they write it down, that word is an inspired writing, (scripture). Is He not the same God that spoke through the apostles and prophets that are recorded in scripture contained in the bible?
All they did was write down what He said and what the Holy Spirit inspired them to write, the prophecies, the epistles, the gospels, revelations, testimonies, ect…
Why wouldn’t a word given to a true apostle or prophet today by the same God, written down, be as scripture recorded in the bible?”
Tyrone, I went to your website and see that you refer to yourself as an Apostle. Again this is what I specifically asked you:
“It seems that you are saying that if YOU, or as you say, “an APOSTLE or prophet today” believes God speaks to them, and they write it down, it is on the same level as the bible, i.e., the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation? Is THAT what you are saying?”
In other words, Tyrone, you are telling me that what you have written is on the same level as the bible, i.e., the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation. You are in error about this Tyrone. You should be taking what you believe and testing it against the infalliable Word of God. What you are writing is not infalliable, and it is not on par with what we have come to know as the bible.
David Larsen:
You’re right David, most people won’t understand what you and Tyrone are talking about, and it’s NOT because they, “Worship a book”, as you say. It’s also NOT because they’re reading the book but really don’t know the Author, as you also stated.
We understand that the Author and the written Word of God are in complete agreement; when you honor God’s Word you honor the Author. You said:
“Most here worship a book and that tells me that you better not talk against the book or even dare say that the book is really not the place where God really is.”
It would be a good idea David not to “talk against the book”, PERIOD. Have you forgotten this is no ordinary book? It’s God’s Word, don’t you think He stands behind it? Why would you even make a statement like that?
You guys need to stop and think about what you’re saying.
Robert Winkler Burke:
You have been twice asked to give biblical backing for a quote you put forth by Pat Savas and have yet to actually give an answer. Do you expect that you can put out this unbiblical stuff and nobody’s going to call you on it? Do you think that by not answering, we’re going to stop asking, and that you can just keep putting this stuff out?
Here is some of what you say on your website:
“I believe Arnold Murray of Shepherd’s Chapel, Gravette, Arkansas (www.shepherdschapel.com) has the correct biblical explanation with the Three Earth Ages.
Perhaps demon spirits have lived in others hundreds of times. So if we confuse an indwelt demon with our own spirit, we might feel we lived 600 times before. But Murray says we all lived but once in the First Earth Age, which was the time of Satan’s rebellion. And Murray says we all live just once again in this, the Second Earth Age. Therefore now is most everybody’s second and last chance to come to terms with God. The elect, who appear to have been approved of God because of whatever they did for Him in the First Earth Age (we don’t know why, because of memory loss,) perhaps volunteer for Second Earth Age duty as God’s useful vessels who have limited free will.”
“In the latter videos my spirit sometimes became transcendent to the point I speak as a prophet speaking the words of God. “
“Current church teachings seem to utterly ignore God’s desires for man’s transcendence with Him. If the scriptures are taken in this light, and not in utter literal fashion, much growth in truth and God is possible. See John 17 for transcendentalism
“Jesus said three times: “Behold, I come quickly.” And you can say that means He will literally come in a cloud to rectify all humankind’s woes. Or you can say that spiritually means He will come in the cloud of our faces as we allow Him to manifest through us in spirit and truth. To believe the former is sort of a cop out. To believe the latter requires serious faith, work, humility, patience, cost and more!”
“Critics might argue that these teachings simply insert a spiritual explanation for things literally expected in the Bible, such as rapture or Christ’s return. And that would be correct. Christ returns in us now, not in the rapture or otherwise. The burden is on us to perform with God, not the reverse. Jesus never tarries, we do!”
Robert, what you are believing is NOT biblical. You say on your website that you are open to correction and ask to be corrected if wrong. This might be tough medicine but I advise you to repent and utterly renounce these beliefs.
Before becoming a Christian I was involved in the New Age Movement and was confronted by my brother. I did not want to hear what my brother was telling me with what I considered were his narrow interpretations of the bible, but God had mercy on me and opened my eyes. I utterly renounced the things I once believed and took the bible as my plumbline. There is safety in the Word of God. You are putting yourself in jeopardy by continuing down the path you’re on. You rail against those who cling to the Word of God, but you do not realize that which you rail against is what you need most.
Mike Helms
If you think you can have eternal salavation form just having a relationship with a book i doubt you are even saved and will not talk with you about this any more. What you have is no more then most relogions have they have bibles to and worship them and will kill you if you say any thing against there book. That is why religous men killed Jesus He did not line up with the book they were worshiping. Gods word is alive and lives in all true believers i pray you will come to know the word of God and not just the words written on paper about it. When peter said they were born again by the word of God he was not talking about reading the bible. Almost no one back then had one and no one back then had what we call a bible most couldnt even read. And did a whole lot better then those in the so called church who have someone to tell them what the bible says every week. Not because the word of God is in them they went to bible school and men taught them that a book was really the word of God and that the word of God made flesh that dwelt amoung us and now that same word lives in all true believers is really a lie. So people worship a book and not a true and living savior. I love the bible and it is a great testtimony of those who went before us. It was never ment to replace the real Word which is Christ in you the hope of glory.
David,
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. (Romans 10:17)
It is the word of God that led me to Christ, and yes, I do have a relationship with HIM. I also love His Word.
You keep going on about me “having a relationship with a book” and say that “I’m probably not even saved” and tell me, “I pray you will come to know the word of God and not just the words written on paper about it.”
Do you know anything about me David? Apparently not!
I have an amazing testimony of how Jesus saved me when I wasn’t even expecting anything remotely like that to happen. I was into the New Age, psychics, astrology etc. and thought everything I was doing was just fine. My brother (who’s a pastor) confronted me and I didn’t want anything to do with Jesus. I thought the whole thing was boring. But you know what? The Holy Spirit got a hold of me through the truth my brother shared. I had a bible that I never read, which belonged to my friend’s Dad and it was all marked up. I had kind of “taken it- stolen it because I thought it was cool” when I was younger. Well, my brother left for home a state away, so it was basically me, a bible I never read, and the Holy Spirit. I wasn’t in a church. Since I was into psychics I went to get a reading, but you know what? The Spirit of God was working through what my brother had said and I began to get afraid. The psychic was going to do a prayer for me on the new moon. I didn’t know what to do so I went and got that bible. I didn’t know a thing about the bible so I prayed, “”God, whatever I open this up to, that will be you speaking to me!” God had mercy on me and I opened to a passage on astrology and how God hates it. Long story short, I opened that bible 5 times in a row each time landing on a passage dealing with the occult. The final verse was Acts 19:19 where those who had
practiced magic arts burned their scrolls and stuff publicly. So that’s what I did, because I figured it must be what God wants me to do. I took all my occult stuff and astrology charts and burned them in a grill. The stuff that didn’t burn I threw into a lake.
I had repented without really knowing what repentance was. I had renounced the thing God had His finger on. I still didn’t know Jesus. So I began to pray each night when I went to bed, “God show me if my brother’s right, show me if Jesus is real”. During this time I also read the bible that was marked up and because stuff was underlined I was drawn to read those things. There came a point where I knew Jesus was “real” and “alive” and that he wanted ME. About a month after that I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and what I experienced was even more powerful than my salvation experience. I will not go into it for time’s sake, but it was AWESOME beyond words. After that it was Jesus morning, noon and night.
This was ALL about relationship. I wasn’t in a church at all. But I’ll tell you what I was doing… I was devouring the bible. After being baptized in the Holy Spirit I read it CONSTANTLY. As I read it, it fueled my RELATIONSHIP with Christ. It isn’t just His Word I love; I love HIM. It isn’t just His word I know, I know Him.
So forgive me for being so blunt, but get off your high horse because you have no idea what you’re talking about! You thought you had me pegged as someone who has a mere intellectual knowledge of the bible and is just religious, and you couldn’t be more wrong if you tried! I happen to believe in a supernatural God that does supernatural things, who is LIVING, KNOWABLE, and desires above all a relationship with me. Please don’t mistake a believer’s love for God’s Word with having a dead faith. The reason I have been so passionate about this subject is because I know FROM EXPERIENCE how important God’s Word is to having a real relationship with Him.
Incredible testimony Mike.
I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the same accusations about “worshipping a book” and I wonder what kind of attitude those people themselves have with the bible they are denigrating.
No I don’t worship a book either, but I do value the scriptures that God provided as a revelation of Himself. I see the Bible as the Holy Spirit inspired word given to man to increase our understanding.
In the Bible we are shown God in action – what He is like and how He relates to His creation (mankind in particular).
The Bible also gives us a written standard by which we can judge teaching and experience. As writing inspired by the Holy Spirit it also helps us to determine whether we are hearing from the Holy Spirit – if what we are hearing contradicts scripture, then it is not the Holy Spirit we are hearing. he does not contradict Himself.
Tim
I’ve just been reading some of the comments made over the last few days and came across this:
Tyrone Palmer said:
Hey Mike, as me and my wife were discussing the scriptures she received a word from the Holy Spirit. “Did Jesus write anything?” Wow! Now that is something to meditate on.
—— — —
My reply:
What conclusion did the “Holy Spirit” bring to your wife? That Jesus didn’t write anything? Then I suggest that it wasn’t the Holy Spirit who brought this “word” to her. One of the purposes of scripture to equip us to recognise the voice of the Holy Spirit who does not contradict the word He inspired.
How well do you know your bible?
Have you read the book of Revelation? There are seven letters there that were dictated by Jesus Himself.
They are as much Jesus’ writing as Paul’s letters were Paul’s writing – since Paul also dictated his letters to a scribe.
Now what should we make of those letters written by Jesus? What should we make of the word your wife received?
Which word should we accept as from God? The word of Jesus through His letters or the word given to your wife?
Tim
Mike, what you have got…. you have god bad. To wit:
Stuck in Rigid Righteousness
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 1/28/09
Stuck in rigid righteousness,
In everything we do,
Stuck in rigid righteousness,
So right in making rue.
So much we do turns out bad,
As we follow rigid rules,
Enslaving better, softer souls,
Using rules as tools.
The rules we worship are enslavers,
Our rules say we are right,
We enslave so many better others,
As we proudly, stiffly fight.
Stuck in rigid righteousness,
We hate the pure, flexible wise who see,
We have only one great power,
Pride in cureless, rigid righteous glee.
Mike, God wants us flexible. Write that down on the chalk board 100 times. Selah. The rigid righteous crucified Christ, as you do now to Him IN YOU!… and Him IN me and other posters here on this blog. Selah times two, brother.
Stop knee-jerk posting. Stop and think. THINK. Try going a year without reading the bible. Just read good thinkers, like A. Lincoln. Read history.
If you follow this advice, which you won’t because you’re too rigid, well then… you would see JUST HOW RIGID YOU HAVE BECOME…. and how hard it is for God to be IN YOU NOW. Because God can’t do much with the rigid.
RWB said: “Stop knee-jerk posting. Stop and think. THINK. Try going a year without reading the bible. Just read good thinkers, like A. Lincoln. Read history.”
—
Go for a year without reading the bible?
That certainly says a lot.
Thanks for the advice – but no thanks.
I’ll choose scripture over Lincoln any day for revelation of God and His ways.
You have clearly indicated the value and the source of all of your “spiritual” rhetoric.
Oneismus:
As per your website link, top quotation:
“In recent weeks two of my favourite female singers have separately “come out” revealing that they are lesbians.”"
Maybe stop listening to Country Music for a year, as well as the bible.
Talk about NEEDING a reset!!! Holy moly!
Rugid rules are used to enslave people. Higher Ground says there are no fixed rules, only guidelines. This, from the USMC tactics manual…. and also… the correct way to understand Commandment 1. Have no other (fixed rule) above God’s guidelines.
Otherwise, you become confused about Country Western and all kindsa things.
Everyone HATES a rigid-rule leader. We need our leaders flexible.
Guess what, all you bible thumpers…. God wants you flexible…. so you can lead. And stop destroying Christ-in-you as you destroy Christ-in-others.
Revelation 1:11
Saying I am Alpha and Omega the first and the last. and , What thou seest, write in a book and send it unto the seven churches.
John was the one who wrote the book of Revelation. As far as any one knows the man Jesus never wrote any thing down except in the sand once and to say any thing more then that is a lie. When the bible speaks about faith coming from hearing the word of God it means just that. Once you hear the word of God you will know the diffrence. When i hear Gods word on the inside of me it will always agree with the words written in the bible. Because those words were written by men who were inspired by the word of God who is Spirit. Just as in the natural men write books but the book is not the man they may tell you about the man but the book is not the man himself. So many have been programed to believe that the book the bible is Gods word he has a hard time speaking to them because they dont believe his word is any thing more then words on paper. When you read the book Tom Saywer have the people in the book become more real then the author who wrote it. Gods word is real and comes to you and does everything that God has sent it to do. The only thing that will stop Gods word from working in your life is unbelife.
Read the parable of the sower and it is all in there. Gods word is real and so much more then paper and ink. That is all i will say on this subject. If you cant see this then oh well just keep being right i will not bother you about it again.
Mike Helms: You didn’t answer my questions, but I did answer yours.
I’m glad you got a chance to check out my blog, I pray that your soul will be nourished and edified by the revelations I have received from the Holy Spirit. I have been given the gift of apostleship to edify and build up the body of Christ, but it’s not about me Mike and I don’t boast in myself or put a title before my name. I boast in Jesus who chose me out of this dark world to minister to those He sends me to, and to preach His gospel to all nations.
I will not go back and forth with you about what I have received, a man of God should not quarrel, but should be able to teach with patience, love, and humility. If you don’t agree with my words, that’s fine, I’m not here to please man, but my Father in heaven. I only write what I have received it’s your choice to accept or reject it. May God bless and keep you in these last days. Time is short.
Tim: While Jesus was physically upon this earth did He write or dictate anything to be written down? If yes what scriptures? If not why didn’t He?
RWB,
Did I suggest anyone stop reading the bible for a year and listen to country music (or anything else) instead?
Do you know when I last listened to country music?
Do I base my understanding of God on Country music?
You can keep your flexibile leaders.
I’l stick with an unchanging God and the firm foundation of His word.
And anyone can go to my blog and read the article your reference to see its content and context for themselves.
David Larsen.
I suggest you actually READ your bible instead of spinning reasons for avoiding it.
Did you actually read further into revelation – its not far, merely chapters 2 and 3, in which Jesus tells John to write down what He is dictating.
If a company manager dictates a letter to a secretary – whose letter is it? Who wrote the letter? The one whose words were recorded or the one who merely recorded them?
Tyrone asks:
Tim: While Jesus was physically upon this earth did He write or dictate anything to be written down? If yes what scriptures? If not why didn’t He
—
What difference does it make whether He wrote or dictated anything when He was on earth?
He dictated 7 letters that are recorded in the book of revelation. Do you think His authority has diminished since He went back to be with the Father?
Do we now ignore Him because He is not physically present on earth?
Praise the Living God whom we serve David! May His word continue to be living and active in your life! When He speaks there is nothing else better in this world, ahhh to hear His voice! My God, I love Him so much, may He be forever praised and exalted!
The day is coming David when the world will know there is a living God who dwells inside His people and speaks to them like a father speaks to His child, they will do great exploits as He works through their sanctified vessels. Glory be to God!
Tim: God bless you
Tyrone, is this the same living God who is inside Todd Bentley and his followers?
The same living God who speaks to the disgraced prophetic movement?
The same living God who was behind the farcical “Toronto Blessing”?
All of them prefered to voice of their prefered living god – even when that voice contradicted the Holy Spirit inspired scriptures!
Or is your living God different to theirs.
They all had or have the same kind of attitude to scripture that you are displaying.
Onesimus, Congrats on the meme: You have resurrected the LIVING SPIRIT of, not Christ, but His crucifiers!
Great meme, babe! (NOT REALLY!)
You are a Pharisee, a scribe, a lawyer… a dead spirit in a live body! Time to wake up! Wake up and attend to that almost dead spirit! God wants it alive, and less crucifying to His body, His souls He inhabits… NOW. He lives in ‘em NOW.
Great meme, except one thing: You are killing Christ-in-you.
And Christ-in-you needs no bible. Just God. No crutches. Just God.
Tyrone Palmer has it perfect in maturity.
Your just a babe-in-Christ, that ought to think about getting more mature!
Chuck that lousy meme, it’s killing Christ-in-you! (Before it kills Christ-in-somebody-else!)
RWB,
Thrown the insults as much as you like. I’ve been insulted many more times than I can remember for not following the Christless pratices promoted by the likes of TAFC, the Prophetic Movement and the Bentley’s of this world. The people who promote experience and “spiritual revelation” that contradicts scripture.
You have already revealed your disdain for the bible.
I don’t worship scripture but I worship the God whom scripture reveals. I definitely don’t worship a “god inside” who contradicts the Holy Spirit inspired books and letters of the bible.
You can keep that god for yourself.
RWB said to me:
“You are a Pharisee, a scribe, a lawyer… a dead spirit in a live body!”
My reply:
I forgot to thank you for the insults.
It’s a nice change from being called an “Armian semi-pelagian Finneyite” by devoted Calvinists.
By the way I’m not an Arminian, A semi-Pelagian or a Finnyite either.
It’s interesting that insults are usually lies. Maybe there’s a very similar spirit behind them all.
Hear Ye, Something New!
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 11/14/09
Hear ye, hear ye, hear ye!
What the herald has to say,
The Day of the Lord is come,
It’s called: In That Day.
With God all things come in three,
On this we are agreed,
We have two testaments now,
A third one is in need.
What shall we call this testament,
After Old and New?
Get thyself imbued and call it,
Testament You.
First Testament of animal sacrifice,
Second of Second Adam,
Third Testament of your own sacrifice,
Spirit blood born again.
What is this Testament You?
Is it Isaiah’s new thing of God?
It’s quick-come behold: Jesus in you!
In humility, never proud.
I salute the God in you,
The You Testament has us say,
No more proud grandee funding,
Shenanigan dark logic goes away.
In God’s life, liberty and happiness,
We see saints of the past,
Pointing toward In That Day,
God come full at last!
Here ye, hear ye, hear ye!
Ignore this not,
Don’t despise small beginnings,
Or you will be forgot.
Something new has happened,
Now under the sun,
Lose lies, gain truth, love God,
Oh, indwelt one.
Read the page, read the poem,
Read your fellow man,
Salute the God in page, poem,
And hardest of all: man!
First of all, I personally enjoy all of these posts as a challenge to dig and search. Through such deep searching a believer’s foundation is tested and either strengthened or crumbling. In other words, there is nothing wrong with being challenged and sharpened once in a while.
I see two camps crystallizing here:
1. The Bible was written by some believers for others back then.
…and although we accept the Bible to be God’s written Word…
2. Now that we have the Holy Spirit in us, the Bible has somewhat lost its relevance for today, provided we have a true and close relationship with Him.
Allow me to throw out some questions here:
1. Why is there no extended or altogether new bible, written by some of the believers who came after the original writers? Why is the original Bible not continually updated if God’s modern Word given today is as relevant as the old written Word? Wouldn’t it make sense that the Lord would give us a new, updated bible which would much better relate to us (His church) today? Why has God not used a modern day believer in that regard?
2. Concerning the Holy Spirit as our guide who, according to popular teaching, “automatically” indwells a person who repented and who received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
What about the Scripture In the book of Acts chapter 19 where we read that, when Paul came to Ephesus, “he found some disciples WHO WERE BELIEVERS, but had NOT YET RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT?” This is obviously not talking about Jesus’ disciples. How can it be that Paul refers to them as believers and yet they did not right away (automatically) have the Holy Spirit?
3. Where the Apostles talking to only Christian crowds or was there perhaps a mix of believers and unbelievers present?
Blessings, and all 4 Jesus!
Mario
2 TIM 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
This is the only basis for determining TRUTH
First Thessalonians 5:21 says “Test all things, hold fast what is good.” The word test [Greek: dokimazo] means “to allow, approve, discern, examine, prove, and try” and literally means “the testing of something in order to prove or disprove it as genuine or worthy.”
So as Christians, what can we test or judge when it comes to the things of God? The Bible names several areas that Christians should test and exercise discernment towards.
1. Teaching – Acts 17:11 says that the Bereans “were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.”
The word searched [Greek: anakrino] means “to scrutinize, investigate, interrogate, discern, examine, judge and search.” It was often used as a technical term in the context of a legal examination or a trial.
In other words, they tested Paul’s teachings against Scripture to see if what he was teaching was doctrinally and theologically correct.
2. Spirits – First John 4:1 says “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are from God”
The Greek word structure of “do not believe” could literally be translated “stop believing” and implies “stop believing everything you hear but test what you hear to the Word of God.”
In other words, stop listening to false teachers and start being a spiritually discerning Christian.
3. Prophecy – First Thessalonians 5:20-22 says “Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good. Abstain form every form of evil.”
The immediate context of “test everything” is that prophecies or “prophetic utterances” are to be tested. Despise means to “look down upon or treat with contempt” and prophecy means either “written or spoken words.”
In other words, we are not to look down upon either what is said or written but test all things to Scripture and hold fast to that which matches Scripture and abstain or stay away from those things that don’t match up.
4. Leadership – First Timothy 3:10 says “But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless.”
Again, we see the word test [Greek: dokimazo]. In the present tense of the word, we see that it’s an ongoing test and not a one-time or probation testing but a continual assessment of the leaders’ service towards God’s people.
5. Other Christians – Second Corinthians 8:22 says “And we have sent them our brother whom we have often proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, because of the great confidence which we have in you.”
Here the word proved is again [Greek: dokimazo]. Paul had sent Titus and two other Godly brothers to the church located in Corinth to minister to God’s people. Paul felt it necessary to mention that this unnamed disciple had been tested and found suitable to serve the local church.
6. The Times – Luke 12:56 says “Hypocrites! You can discern the face of the sky and of the earth, but how is it you do not discern this time?”
Jesus was critical of the crowd of followers for being able to properly interpret, with no trouble, the natural signs of the weather but were unable to rightly discern what was under there very noses, namely the kingdom of God right there in their midst.
As such, we need to be able to exercise discernment regarding the times in which we live. We need to live as if Jesus is returning tomorrow, but plan as if it is far off.
7. Yourselves – Second Corinthians 13:5 says “Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you are disqualified.”
Here we see that we are to not only test [Greek: dokimazo] ourselves but also examine [Greek: peirazo] or “scrutinize, discipline, try” ourselves to see if we are indeed living out our Christian faith. Are we abiding in Jesus Christ or are we just going through the motions?
The Bible says that just as great men of faith asked God to reveal to them any wicked ways in their hearts, we should do the same examination (See Job 13:23; 31:4-6; Psalm 17:3; 26:2; 139:23-24; Lamentations 3:40; Haggai 1:5,7; 1 Corinthians 11:28,31).
This brings us to what we cannot judge. The Bible says that we are to not judge peoples motives because only God can see what is in our hearts and why we do the things we do.
◦ First Corinthians 4:5 says “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.”
◦ Hebrews 4:12 says “For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of the soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
And finally, when we exercise discernment, judging and testing those things we are commanded to test, we need to make sure our motives are pure and we need to speak truthfully and with love.
◦ Ephesians 4:15 says “speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head – Christ
David Larsen: When the bible speaks about faith coming from hearing the word of God it means just that.
Before I became a Christian I heard the Word of God through a believer who was reading from the Bible. It was this “hearing”, someone’s reading of Scripture, that helped me to find Jesus.
Blessings, and all 4 Jesus!
Mario
Mario
Before i was a christian i heard the word of God tell me to look in the bible to get to know Him.
And guess what i was not even looking for him he was looking for me. Because my bible says if He does not draw you how can you come to Him.
Everything the word of God tells me agrees with scripture because the word of God was in the men who wrote the bible. At least in the new testament in the old He moved on them to do a certain thing. So when i am talking about faith coming from hearing the word of God i mean just that and so does the scripture. The word of God is a real and a living thing there is all of the power of God in His word and His word is in all true believers. The bible with out the living Word who is Spirit is a dead letter there is no life with out the living Word of God. Think about it Jesus Christ was the word made Flesh Gods word dwelling in a man. And the doctors of the law were some of the most bible reading fools that have ever lived and i am sure they would have told you that they had the word of God and read it every day. Yet the true word was standing right in front of them and they did not know Him. I can tell who are His and who are not by this very thing who has the living word the Christ of God living on the inside of them. These are the sons of God all the rest are just bible reading pharisees.
Exactly true that God was with those who wrote the Bible and every word found in the Bible is true.
God bless so much as continue sending similar articles to me.
Yes, no one knows where the Holy Spirit goes, drawing, wooing, guiding, leading…. one destined for salvation into a personal relationship, born of the Holy Spirit…….pricking the ears of the hearer, saying “come unto me all who are hungry and who thirst for righteousness”
No man knows, but the Spirit KNOWS……..
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
Jhn 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Mario,
It is about the Spirit AND truth…..
The TRUTH is the WORD, (the Word made flesh) Christ Jesus and the SPIRIT is the HOLY SPIRIT working in conjunction with one another to bring someone to salvation.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
Jhn 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Here is one more question to those who would suggest that today we are solely lead by the Holy Spirit in us, since the Bible was written for and to the believers of the respective churches i.e. Corinth etc.
There are Scriptures describing a time in a far distant future, a time referred to as “the time of the end”. These Scriptures are found throughout the Old and New Testament. See Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation.
Question: Why would the Lord have someone write about events that are not relevant during the time when it was recorded? Why didn’t He just wait for the generation to come when these events would be of relevance, a generation that would then receive such knowledge through the Holy Spirit? Why did the writers waste time and paper communicating something that was indeed not for the people during that time? Is it not relevant to read the Bible concerning end-time events because we now have the Holy Spirit teaching and leading us?
Blessings, and all 4 Jesus!
Mario
David Larson:
…These are the sons of God all the rest are just bible reading pharisees.
You are calling people like Martin Luther, Smith-Wigglesworth, DL Moody, A.W. Tozer, Spurgeon, etc. etc. and many others here on this forum bible reading Pharisees?
Did these great men of God of the past who were mightily used by the Lord not read and use the Bible in their sermons and teachings?
Please tell me where to find the Scripture that would suggest that in a distant future these Scriptures would become second-class because God will exclusively speak to His people through His Holy Spirit. Where is the Scripture that condemns people for reading the Bible and referring to them as Pharisees? Where is the Scripture that warns of people who, in the “last days”, would still read the Bible instead of just listening to the Holy Spirit? Surely, this would be a very important warning.
I can tell you who God warns about in Scripture…it’s the Todd Bentley’s and Rick Joiner’s of today who are oh so listening to the spirit and ignoring or twisting the Truth, His Word, that they can’t
see where they are going. Yet they are trying to convince others to follow. Deception! The blind leading the blind!
All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Regarding the idea that the Bible is not that important for today…
What about the missionaries who risked their lives to smuggle Bibles into China? Were they led by the Holy Spirit to do so, or were they foolishly risking their lives when they could have just told the Chinese people that all they needed was the Holy Spirit and boom, pow, they would know all the Truth?
(Millions of Chinese people have come to Christ. These people love the Lord and treat His written Word with the uttermost respect. Do they negate the Holy Spirit and His work today? Of course not!)
Guess what, the Bible, that old book that some on this forum regard as rather unimportant, was in fact written for today as it warns us of people who would come in the last days before Jesus’ return and they would preach and teach after their own man-made writings and doctrines. Yes, they take SOME of the Scriptures (usually out of context) and then add a whole book of their own writings.
What stands out about them, and the thing they all seem to have in common, is that they are viewed as highly spiritual and anointed. As I mentioned in another post, the devil is no fool. There is always some truth in the pudding which makes him a great deceiver!
Blessings, and all 4 Jesus!
Mario
Mario
You seem to take things the way that suits you and what ever plan you are up to.
No where did i say the men you mention above were bible reading pharisees.
I said those who do not have the Spirit of Christ in them are.
You seem to twist everythig i and most others have to say to suit your agenda which at this point i would question as to where it is coming from. So in the future please refrain from quoting me as i will not answer you. Thank You.
Mario wrote:
“Here is one more question to those who would suggest that today we are solely lead by the Holy Spirit in us, since the Bible was written for and to the believers of the respective churches i.e. Corinth etc.”
Who is saying that Mario?
If you are responding to my comment, I wrote about the Spirit AND the truth.(the “word” of God)
Who is the “Spirit” Mario? Of course, the “Holy Spirit”.
Who is the “truth” Mario? Of course. Why, Jesus is the “truth”.
And He is the “word” made flesh. And the “word’ is the written word as well, the logos…..ie: the scriptures “written’ through men “moved” by the Holy Spirit to write them.
So, where or what is your argument Mario?
Where or what is Mario’s argument?
See the comments above and on other threads. Comments that dismiss the importance of the written word of God. Comments that even suggest we should stop reading it for a year and read history instead.
Comments like one addressed to me that said I am “… a Pharisee, a scribe, a lawyer… a dead spirit in a live body!” because I dared to point to the importance of scripture.
Comments that continually refer to listening to the God within (how is this different to New Age when scripture is taken out of the picture and replaced with other non-biblical ideas?).
Other comments that insist that the writings of believers today (especially those who label themselves “apostles”) are equal to the revelation of scripture.
YES revelation and understanding from scripture is given by the Holy Spirit, but equally we can recognise the Spirit through His unity with the words he inspired His prophets and apostles to write.
I have seen no one here promoting the scriptures as some kind of rigid rule book or a new version of law.
What I have seen and what I have said myself, is that there is a unity between the Holy Spirit and the written word that He inspired. If we seek to exalt the role of one above the other we open ourselves up to error.
This can be seen at both extremes. On one hand we have never ending dry theological arguments between different historical traditions. On the other hand we have the luncay of charismanic excess displayed in false signs and wonders and proven false prophecies.
Downplay the scriptures, or pick and choose which bits are really inspired, and we open the gate wide for everyone to determine what is right in their own eyes. We open the gate wide to every deceiving spirit to come (claiming to be the Holy Spirit), whispering all manner of false revelation into our ears.
@ onesimus, I agree with what you wrote.
Mario comments are not making sense.Because as far as I can tell, no one is disagreeing with him (or you in this thread) about the importance of the written word.
But both are needed as the scriptures say. The Spirit “and” the truth…the truth being Jesus who is the logos “word”.
But as someone else said, without the illumination of the written “word” BY the Spirit, they are just “words” that anyone can quote…..and a lot of unregenerated individuals do “quote” the scriptures ad nauseum…..just like the pharisee’s did.
They weren’t “saved’. But they sure knew the scriptures, inside and out.
Heidi said:
“as far as I can tell, no one is disagreeing with him (or you in this thread) about the importance of the written word.”
Most (if not all) of the specific cases I mentioned are in this thread.
well, lol, this thread has gone in a lot of different directions….
But based on what you have written, you do not sound like a pharisee onesimus….just someone calling for “balance’ it appears.
David,
How do you know if someone is or is not Spirit filled? Especially on a forum when you couldn’t possibly, personally know that person? When someone tells you they love reading the Bible it seems, from what you have written, that this alone is an indication they might perhaps not be Spirit filled. (Others on this forum have obviously felt that way too.)
As I have written in “Awakening the Sleeping Giant” about the importance of the Holy Spirit …
“Just as Adam when he was created from the dust of the earth was yet without life, so also the Bible, unless God breathes life into it is just another book without any power.”
There is no question about that. It is the Holy Spirit who empowers God’s written Word as well as a believer.”
However, it would be nice to receive some answers to some of my previous questions…
Here they are again:
Here is one more question to those who would suggest that today we are solely lead by the Holy Spirit in us, since the Bible was written for and to the believers of the respective churches i.e. Corinth etc.
There are Scriptures describing a time in a far distant future, a time referred to as “the time of the end”. These Scriptures are found throughout the Old and New Testament. See Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation.
Question: Why would the Lord have someone write about events that are not relevant during the time when it was recorded? Why didn’t He just wait for the generation to come when these events would be of relevance, a generation that would then receive such knowledge through the Holy Spirit? Why did the writers waste time and paper communicating something that was indeed not for the people during that time? Is it not important to read the Bible concerning end-time events because we now have the Holy Spirit?
Did the great men of God of the past who were mightily used by the Lord not read and use the Bible in their sermons and teachings? Were they therefore perhaps not Spirit filled?
Please tell me where to find the Scripture that would suggest that in a distant future these Scriptures would become second-class because God will exclusively speak to His people through His Holy Spirit.
Where is the Scripture that warns of people who, in the “last days”, would still read the Bible instead of just listening to the Holy Spirit? Surely, this would be a very important warning.
What about the missionaries who risked their lives to smuggle Bibles into China? Were they led by the Holy Spirit to do so, or were they foolishly risking their lives when they could have just told the Chinese people that all they needed was the Holy Spirit and boom, pow, they would know all the Truth?
(Millions of Chinese people have come to Christ. These people love the Lord and treat His written Word with the uttermost respect. Do they negate the Holy Spirit and His work today? Of course not!)
All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Heidi wrote:…..
Mario wrote:
“Here is one more question to those who would suggest that today we are solely lead by the Holy Spirit in us, since the Bible was written for and to the believers of the respective churches i.e. Corinth etc.”
Who is saying that Mario?
Tyrone Palmer:
The epistles WERE written for the 1st century churches and specific brothers! Is my name Timothy? No. Did Paul personally teach you and me? No. Did he establish a church in your hometown? If he did then I would like to meet him and ask him what it feels like to be over two thousand years old!
Blessings,
Mario
@Mario,
I believeTyrone is correct, but at the same time you are as well.
The epistles were written to specific brothers/sisters/saints during the first century……but, they were also written for us saints of later generations as well.
It’s called the “duality” of scripture. That’s the amazing thing about the “word”…it’s active and “living” and applicable to believers of today as well as believers of the past.
Just like the prophets in the old testament were speaking to those of their specific generation, yet, at the same time, their prophetic words were ALSO for future generations….
It is interesting to observe the war going on here. Brother Andrew referred to a “civil” war in the church on his email about his book. So true. We see it right here. It seems that the true believer contending for the faith of the Apostles is being pushed out of the church. I have experienced and believed for many years that the main persecution is going to come from within the “church” because they can’t stand the truth. Satan is very quickly devouring what we know as Christianity and all the true believers are going to be labeled as the radicals and troublemakers.
All I can say to onesimus, Mike Helms, and the others who are contending for the truth here is too prepare your heart for the coming persecution. Read some good books like the “heavenly man” and foxes book of martyrs and other stories of the faithfulness of God in the mist of persecution. I used to get laughed at in the early ninties when as a young Christian I would tell people persecution is coming to America. I fully expect to die for my belief in the One true God-the Lord Jesus Christ and the written infallible Word of God.
One more word to you guys. The book of Titus tells us to reject a heretic after the 2nd or 3rd admonition. These anti-christ spirits will not listen. Now I don’t mean do not try because Jesus wants to save them but don’t waste all your time casting your pearls before swine!
God be with you,
Tyron Palmer:
If anyone receives a word directly from God and writes it down, that is scripture. Scripture simply means inspired writings.
Todd Bentley and many others of his caliber have written a lot of stuff they say came straight from God.
Let me ask: Why did Mike Helms feel this way…
David,
You keep going on about me “having a relationship with a book” and say that “I’m probably not even saved” and tell me, “I pray you will come to know the word of God and not just the words written on paper about it.”
Do you know anything about me David? Apparently not!
Just for the record…
I am a Spirit filled believer and received one of the least yet very uplifting gifts, the gift of tongues. I do believe that the Holy Spirit has used me in other ways as well. My wife and I have five children who are still quite young. We do believe that it is vitally important for a young child to be familiarized with the Bible, the written Word of God. They have their own Bible devotions and we read together as well.
One of our sons’ name is Josiah. Does anyone know how excited King Josiah of the Bible was when they told him that they had found some long lost scrolls with God’s written Word?
We have not yet heard of any case where a child first was Spirit filled and then perhaps led to read the Bible. It rather seems to be the other way around. We also do not believe that becoming Spirit filled eliminates the need for Biblical studies and the edification which comes through the reading of His spiritually charged and uplifting Scriptures. In that we view ourselves in good company as many powerful church leaders of the past have strongly promoted the reading and study of God’s written Word.
All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Mario wrote:
“2. Concerning the Holy Spirit as our guide who, according to popular teaching, “automatically” indwells a person who repented and who received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
What about the Scripture In the book of Acts chapter 19 where we read that, when Paul came to Ephesus, “he found some disciples WHO WERE BELIEVERS, but had NOT YET RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT?” This is obviously not talking about Jesus’ disciples. How can it be that Paul refers to them as believers and yet they did not right away (automatically) have the Holy Spirit?”
Mario…the following scriptures explain that those who believed and followed Jesus PRIOR to His resurrection were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the time they believed, so those prior believers were told they could now receive the Holy Spirit…….Even the DISCIPLES did not have the Holy Spirit INDWELLING THEM until John 20:22. The INDWELLING is different than the BAPTISM/INFILLING that the believers experienced at Pentecost.
Jhn 7:38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From [fn] his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
Jhn 7:39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Jhn 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and [!] said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Sorry…forgot the final statement.
Those who have believed AFTER Jesus’ resurrection are INDWELT by the Holy Spirit at the time of their NEW BIRTH…BORN AGAIN.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Heidi
Well sister at least they had the wisdom to lump you with Tyrone
I have looked at both of your web sites and i would say they made a good call. As for me i am done here no sense beating a dead horse. I thank God our Father He is raising up brothers and sisters like you and Tyrone in the times we are in i enjoyed what you have to say on your site and here.
To Tim (onesimus), Mario, Tenderwarrior, Andrew Strom and Moderators
Tim:
Thank you for another excellent post. I’ve appreciated how you’ve taken a stand against error and have stood for the truth, not only on this post, but on other threads I’ve been reading.
Mario:
You’ve asked some very good questions. I especially was ministered to by what you had to say here-
“1. What about the missionaries who risked their lives to smuggle Bibles into China? Were they led by the Holy Spirit to do so, or were they foolishly risking their lives when they could have just told the Chinese people that all they needed was the Holy Spirit and boom, pow, they would know all the Truth?
(Millions of Chinese people have come to Christ. These people love the Lord and treat His written Word with the uttermost respect. Do they negate the Holy Spirit and His work today? Of course not!)”
Tenderwarrior:
Thank you for your admonition and encouragement. I receive what you’re saying and am going to take your counsel from Titus. Thank you again for sharing it!
Andrew Strom and Moderators:
I believe that Tenderwarrior is correct when she says-
“It is interesting to observe the war going on here. Brother Andrew referred to a “civil” war in the church on his email about his book. So true. We see it right here. It seems that the true believer contending for the faith of the Apostles is being pushed out of the church.”
The things you write about Andrew are happening right on this forum. I cannot speak for others, but my reasons for being here are not to have to constantly “contend for the faith.” We are called to do this, and I’m certainly willing to do it when the need arises, ( as others have also risen to the task), but it seems to me that the scripture Tenderwarrior referred to from Titus must come into play here:
“A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject”- Titus 3:10
There is an obvious difference between those who are young in the faith or learning or misguided and those who time after time espouse false doctrine, and flagrantly push and broadcast their false beliefs and agendas. Examples of this run rampant on this thread for instance.
I guess what I’m asking is, how can we address this problem? Tenderwarrior is correct, we cannot endlessly go back and forth with these people, it does no good and only leads to distress and wasted time. If this were a physical gathering of the church we would not allow others to repeatedly come and bring in false teaching and doctrine once we understood their vantage point. It seems to me that being online only brings a greater responsibility to adhere to the statement in Titus since we are potentially affecting so many more people if we allow those who bring in false teaching to have a greater platform for their error.
Thank you for providing us with this forum and hearing my concerns.
And So I Return Quickly
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 9/25/08
And so I return quickly…
In the loud,
In the proud,
In the crowd,
That always themselves laud,
…for the seeing to see Me?
And so I return quickly…
In the lazy,
In the hazy,
In the crazy,
That always say, I tarry,
…for the seeing to see Me?
And so I return quickly…
In imagined rapture,
In the ever after,
In eternal rafters,
Nothing really matters,
…for the seeing to see Me?
And so I return quickly…
To reward the slothful,
To live with the awful,
To cherish the self-full,
To assuage overflowing hell full,
…for the seeing to see Me?
And so I return quickly…
For two thousand years,
With those who have ears,
With whom have no fears,
With whom heaven reveres,
…for the seeing to see Me!
And so I return quickly…
In this mystery,
In you Me to be,
Sudden company,
With all the worthy,
…for the seeing to see Me!
And so I return quickly…
To mock those who say I can’t,
Who say those indwelt, I shan’t,
To give their minds a new slant,
That they stop such foolish rant,
…for the seeing to see Me!
Mike Helms
One correction. I am a he. Tenderwarrior comes from a book by Stu Weber where he contends that men must be warriors but also be tender. This is how I believe Jesus is. At the same time He is a fierce warrior avenging the wrath of God on the enemies of the gospel and yet very tender toward the humble penitent.
No offense taken,
Mike [my name]
Thanks Mike! I apologize for misunderstanding; thanks for letting me know.
Mike
Mike Helms
I totally agree with your previous post that something needs to be done about heresies being spued out here. Part of what is wrong with the church is that leaders have no guts to do the hard thing as in 1cor. 5. If it where easy to cast someone out of the church then we have the wrong spirit but we cannot continue to disobey the Word of God and let the leaven of sin and false doctrine to run freely in our churches.
As for me I am at a loss to know what to do. It seems I don’t fit in anywhere. I am too “pentecostal” for some and not “pentecostal” enough for others. The definition God gave me as a young Christian of Christianity is it is a “love affair with a living God.” Many don’t want a God they can know intimately. I believe in a God that is too be feared and one that is angry with sin. In short I believe the Bible to the best of my ability [by the Holy Ghost} and find that I don’t fit in anywhere. Christians are so in love with their opinions. I can agree to disagree but will never compromise.
Pray for my family. We desperately need fellowship with other believers. Who would of thought that in Pa in the U.S. it would be so hard to find true Bible believing Christians that have a passion for God.
In my previous post I wasn’t referring to the moderators of this forum when I said that the leaders have no guts. Just thought I should clarify that
Tenderwarrior,
I will pray for you and your family. I can understand your frustration when you say you “desperately need fellowship with other believers” and yet are having trouble finding it. May I ask what your situation is right now? Have you been visiting churches, been a part of a home church, or been home alone?
Mike
What a warrior of maturity does… see http://www.russianmartialart.com.
Breaking Off Adhesions
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 1/27/09
Matthew 24:28
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Breaking off adhesions,
By all rights,
Strange requires bruising,
Tender fights.
You need, in fact,
A friend,
In temp as enemy,
To rend.
To break adhesions,
Off ego,
Then perchance, per spec,
We grow.
Thank friend enemy,
Who the cycle ends,
Parting soul from ego,
Stopping selfish sins.
Breaking off adhesions,
Isn’t nice to do,
Eagles pick off our flesh,
An ugly task true.
Only a friend you fight,
Can likely do it right,
Excising selfish blight,
To spark godly light.
Don’t fear the fight, the friend,
Or all what you will see,
Better to see the ugly truth now,
Than in eternity.
We think we are so good when so bad,
And evil the friend who proves us wrong,
But only a friend as kind eagle,
Without mercy beats our weakness strong.
Breaking off adhesions,
By restoration right,
Requires that we lose,
Ego’s last breath fight.
Mike
For the last year or so we have been home alone. We watch the Times Square Church service on the net each Sunday. We have family devotions as often as we can.
We do have believer friends. None that we connect with on a deeply spiritual level. We interact with the mennonite community around in different homeschool functions. There is one family that is very spiritually minded but have left the pendulum swing to far the other way in my opinion. They don’t believe in any church structure or authority. In fact they believe that it is wrong to stand at a podium and teach. And believe we should be in almost a communal state. I Can’t go for all that.
All the churches we know of are dead or just are not compatable with us. We go to revivals when a good evangelist is around. Our last church went through a “hostile takeover” and half of us where forced out. It just seems like we are visiting social clubs not with a group of Christ’s followers. I just can’t take it anymore. We love Times Square Church but are way to far from NYC to drive there.
RWB
Why would I want to study martial arts when the bible says turn the other cheek and that God is my protector/avenger. I renounced all that stuff when I came to Jesus. I will now study to save lives and defend the true gospel.
Heidi said:
“The epistles were written to specific brothers/sisters/saints during the first century……but, they were also written for us saints of later generations as well.
It’s called the “duality” of scripture. That’s the amazing thing about the “word”…it’s active and “living” and applicable to believers of today as well as believers of the past.
Just like the prophets in the old testament were speaking to those of their specific generation, yet, at the same time, their prophetic words were ALSO for future generations….”
Wonderful explanation Heidi, Praise God! Those words added to my understanding of what I received. Truly the deeper things of God that it seems I did not express in a way that could be understood by all.
I would encourage those who would put me in the same context as “Todd Bentley” examine the motives of their heart. It was those same false accusations by the Pharisees, Scribes, and religious zealots of the 1st century that killed Jesus. The same people who could not see the deeper spiritual things of the written word (inspired scripture) that they studied day and night.
May God bless you all, and shed His grace abundantly upon you in these last days, we are ALL gonna need it!
Join me and my wife on Paltalk every Sunday at 1pm eastern time to edify, and build one another up in the love of Christ.
http://chat.paltalk.com/g2/paltalk/1343891859
Tyrone
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.
2 Corinthians 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.-
For the time (has come) when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2 Timothy 3
The apostle foretells the rise of dangerous enemies to the gospel. (1-9) Proposes his own example to Timothy. (10-13) And exhorts him to continue in the doctrine he had learned from the Holy Scriptures. (14-17)
Verses 1-9 Even in gospel times there would be perilous times; on account of persecution from without, still more on account of corruptions within. Men love to gratify their own lusts, more than to please God and do their duty. When every man is eager for what he can get, and anxious to keep what he has, this makes men dangerous to one another. When men do not fear God, they will not regard man. When children are disobedient to their parents, that makes the times perilous. Men are unholy and without the fear of God, because unthankful for the mercies of God. We abuse God’s gifts, if we make them the food and fuel of our lusts. Times are perilous also, when parents are without natural affection to children. And when men have no rule over their own spirits, but despise that which is good and to be honoured. God is to be loved above all; but a carnal mind, full of enmity against him, prefers any thing before him, especially carnal pleasure. A form of godliness is very different from the power; from such as are found to be hypocrites, real Christians must withdraw. Such persons have been found within the outward church, in every place, and at all times. There ever have been artful men, who, by pretences and flatteries, creep into the favour and confidence of those who are too easy of belief, ignorant, and fanciful. All must be ever learning to know the Lord; but these follow every new notion, yet never seek the truth as it is in Jesus. Like the Egyptian magicians, these were men of corrupt minds, prejudiced against the truth, and found to be quite without faith. Yet though the spirit of error may be let loose for a time, Satan can deceive the nations and the churches no further, and no longer, than God will permit.
Verses 10-13 The more fully we know the doctrine of Christ, as taught by the apostles, the more closely we shall cleave to it. When we know the afflictions of believers only in part, they tempt us to decline the cause for which they suffer. A form of godliness, a profession of Christian faith without a godly life, often is allowed to pass, while open profession of the truth as it is in Jesus, and resolute attention to the duties of godliness, stir up the scorn and enmity of the world. As good men, by the grace of God, grow better, so bad men, through the craft of Satan, and the power of their own corruptions, grow worse. The way of sin is down-hill; such go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. Those who deceive others, deceive themselves, as they will find at last, to their cost. The history of the outward church, awfully shows that the apostle spake this as he was moved by the Holy Ghost.
Verses 14-17 Those who would learn the things of God, and be assured of them, must know the Holy Scriptures, for they are the Divine revelation. The age of children is the age to learn; and those who would get true learning, must get it out of the Scriptures. They must not lie by us neglected, seldom or never looked into. The Bible is a sure guide to eternal life. The prophets and apostles did not speak from themselves, but delivered what they ( 2 Peter 1:21 ) of the Christian life. It is of use to all, for all need to be taught, corrected, and reproved. There is something in the Scriptures suitable for every case. Oh that we may love our Bibles more, and keep closer to them! then shall we find benefit, and at last gain the happiness therein promised by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the main subject of both Testaments. We best oppose error by promoting a solid knowledge of the word of truth; and the greatest kindness we can do to children, is to make them early to know the Bible.
——————————————————————————-
A FORMER Pastor of mine infamously informed me that “…..I do not care about Bible doctrine I only care about my anointing.”
He has followed this up with an avalanche of New Age and Latter Rain initiatives.
Passages such as these in my comment above from the Book of Timothy provide a clear warning about such “wolves in sheep’s clothing.”
We are advising everyone who sees such things in their own church to follow the teaching of scripture in:
2 Corinthians 6:17, which says, “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”
Please pass this on to everyone you care about.
Wayne, Thank you for the excellent posts. It’s amazing that a pastor would come right out and say, “…..I do not care about Bible doctrine I only care about my anointing.” That is unbelievable!
Thank you for your exhortation to cling to the Word of God.
Mike
Tender Warrior,
I recommended Russian Martial Art to put your name, which is to say your nature, TO THE TEST!
Even your surname, Michael, means the angel ranked above the highest rank in the celestial hierarchy, who is mentioned n Rev. 12:7, And there was a war in heaven. Michael and his angeles fought against the…
But you respond to this test in weakness, spurning it! And you seem to think your job is to lash out at those, frankly, you’d be wise to learn something from.
Like your attitude that someone like yourself in name and nature, knows all there is to know about King David’s fighting style, namely Russian Martial Art… and thus quickly discard it as meaningless… since presumably godly people with names and natures of the warrior… learn all they need from, well, pastors?
You only have one problem with your line of thinking, and that’s this:
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. Exodus 15:3. (Learn what that means, oh fighter against windmills of words!)
The I-AM-Not-in-Ain’ts
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 2/6/09
Colossians 1:26-27; Matthew 23:38-39
Two hundrerd years ago,
God’s cutting edge church found wanting,
Truth’s tired old formulas,
Were out, not popular, weirdly haunting.
The truth that Jesus returns,
Indwelt in His saints,
Was on the out, disbelieved by,
The I-AM-not-in-ain’ts.
So they invented rapture,
In which Jesus returns,
They added spirits of fear,
In which we all burn.
For two hundred years,
We burn to buy the next book,
How Jesus returns literally,
In a moment, to see if the next book took.
Took us unawares,
Of the mystery,
That Jesus returns,
Inside you and me.
But the I-am-not-in-ain’ts,
Are in charge of broadcasting religious things,
Loving themselves, their sheep and sheep shearing,
Hating only witnesses indwelt of their king.
THE BACK! The back must be given,
To discourage the foolhardy, indwelt remnant!
The I-AM-not-in-ain’ts are wise,
Making souls which come quick the great I AM can’t.
For Jesus can’t come in unclean vessels,
Who won’t bless His return in others,
The I-AM-not-in-ain’ts turn back on such,
Preferring lies of rapture book sellers.
Tyrone, no you are are not in the “Todd bentley” camp.
You seem like you really love Jesus.
Yes, I agree with your comments. Some posters think they have all their doctirine straight, and they use paragraph after paragraph after paragraph to prove it.
But they miss the HEART of God and speak out of critical spirits.
Pity. They may just miss their day of vistation.
You can win the battle, but lose the war.
Tenderwarrior,
I’ve also tuned into some of the live services that churches are offering and have found that to be a real blessing!
I can identify with what you’re saying about the family you mentioned who are “very spiritually minded but have left the pendulum swing too far the other way in my opinion. They don’t believe in any church structure or authority.”
I would say that’s one of the main issues I’ve encountered with those who have left the traditional churches. To often there’s a reactionary attitude against the “pastor doing everything” and a dislike of all structure or authority. I love the “every member ministry” of home churches, but I see the reactionary attitudes as swinging too far in the other direction. Throwing out Ephesians 4:11-12 is not being scriptural by any means! They forget it was GOD was gave some to be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers. And why did God do this? To prepare God’s people for works of service so that the Body of Christ may be built up… and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. They reject the very ones God’s put in their midst to help them! So I’m totally with you on this. You said, “In fact they believe that it is wrong to stand at a podium and teach.” Yes, isn’t that something? One person teaching and preaching is now somehow wrong? Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
You mentioned, “Our last church went through a “hostile takeover” and half of us where forced out.” I’m sorry to hear about the split. It can be ridiculous what people argue over. When I was a new believer the church I was a part of divided and people left over the issue of whether or not to put new carpet in and what color it should be!
I can understand your frustration. Our home fellowship just came to an end recently after 2 years. We would like to find another, but as you’ve already pointed out, that’s more easily said than done. You mentioned being home alone for the last year. We’ve been in that place and I can honestly tell you that I never really felt that was God’s best for us. It was a transition time, and we were feeling that God was moving us toward the simplicity of home churches, but we couldn’t find any, so it was like, “Ok, what do we do now?” And just sitting at home never felt right to me. It was gut wrenching. I don’t think that’s God’s best as I said, I really don’t. We need fellowship, and not just on a computer. Over and over again I believe the Holy Spirit was showing me that. I believe that’s why you say, “Pray for my family. We desperately need fellowship with other believers.” Because you see that yourself. Ekklesia means, “called out ones”, NOT called out “one”! It also has the specific meaning of an assembly or congregation. Notice what it says in 1 Corinthians 1:26: “What shall we say, brothers? WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation…” ect. Paul assumes the church will come together; it’s a given. All of the instruction given afterwards makes no sense outside of the context of the church gathering together. We cannot do these things sitting at home alone!
Here is what we have done: Since our home fellowship is no longer meeting we make an effort to visit other churches. Our heart is still in the direction of home fellowships, but until we take that step again we won’t be sitting home alone. I know it’s not easy to find what you’re looking for, but neither is being home alone the best solution. I’ll pray for you about this. There’ll no doubt be churches that you will not be able to stay with because the scriptural issues are too great, but perhaps you will find one that at least you can be a part of for the time being.
I’m sure some will disagree with me on this as they have been out of “‘church” a very long time, but those who believe that all mega churches, traditional churches and the like are “Ichabod” need to open their eyes to the fact that God is still very much at work in many, many of these churches; just because there are “tares” growing is no evidence there is not also “wheat”! I have always tried to make it my rule that I go where Christ is and where the Holy Spirit wants me. I have been a part of 3 mega churches and am convinced that He led me to each of them. Were there problems in each? Sure! But I could say the same about home churches and the same about being at home alone. The church of Corinth had plenty of problems but they were still God’s church. I hope this has helped in some way. I would prayerfully continue to seek out the fellowship you’re desperately desiring. God bless you, Mike!
Mike
Please not my correction of the above post. It should read
1 Corinthians 14:26, NOT 1 Corinthians 1:26
thanks.
Please note my first “not” above… should read note! LOL!! :)
Robert,
I know nothing of the fighting of king David and don’t pretend to. I don’t need the martial arts any longer. I don’t have time to spend learning to defend myself-that’s God’s job. If that is weakness to you then I am weak. I didn’t see Jesus learning martial arts and if I am to follow Him neither will I take up that mantle again.
Mike
Thanks for the advice. You seem to be very level headed. Trying as we are not to react to the point of “throwing out the baby with the bath water”. Sometimes it is hard to understand why God doesn’t allow us to find one other family we can have real fellowship with. Please don’t misunderstand that I think we are the only ones around. People are people and sometimes even Godly people just have different personalities and aren’t compatable.
Even churches have personalities and may be good but just seem to dry to me. Maybe I’m just too picky but I want my family where the Spirit of God is moving and where they truly are striving to live by the Word. Anyway thanks so much. Don’t suppose you live anywhere near south central Pa?
Dear beloved of Jesus,
I believe that there are various reasons why the church in North-America is in such a terrible state today. One of the problems, in my opinion, is a dangerous discontentment.
The fruits of Unholy discontentment
The Bible clearly states that there should be a Holy discontentment among believers, a kind of healthy inner stirring. This kind of discontentment operates on a strong foundation of a humble and grateful disposition, and it never asks for money. It doesn’t blindly and impatiently run after satisfaction, instead its great defining virtue is patience. It’s roots can be found in a close, intimate relationship with Jesus and a deep knowing that the Lord has great things in store for those who truly love Him.
“O God, Thou art my God; early will I seek Thee: my soul thirsteth for Thee, my flesh longeth for Thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is” (Ps.63:1). “As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after Thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God” (Ps.42:1,2). “Follow after love, and eagerly desire Spiritual gifts.”(1Cor.14:1)
The mature and well grounded believer who is patiently discontent will always say…
“… however, not my but Your will be done and in Your time, Jesus.”
The maturity of this kind of inner stirring, unrest, or Holy discontentment can be seen in a believer’s hesitance to ask the Lord for more of this or that as he knows that there will be a price to be paid. For should he ask for more faith, the Lord might lead him to a place where he has nothing, solely relying on Him. And should he ask for strength, the Lord might teach him that His strength is made perfect in weakness.
In the late eighties and early nineties we saw a stirring and unrest infiltrate the church that was of a very different nature. There was a strong preaching of “more Lord, we want more Lord”. Preachers blowing on people and waving at them saying “more, give ‘m more Lord”.
Many believers were running after the “more” to the point where they traveled all over North-America from conference to conference, like a drug addict running after his next fix.
But what was behind such discontentment? Was the Lord Himself perhaps stirring believers? Was it a desire for more faith, strength, endurance, patience and love, or perhaps more of Christ’s character?
And why would God not provide these things at home through some of the local churches?
Today we see the fruits of the quest for “more” ( gold dust, angel visits, barking, uncontrollable shaking and laughter etc.). Our wealthy, over-entertained North-American culture, which seems forever dissatisfied, impatient and always longing for something new and exciting, provides a great soil for an Unholy discontentment attack on the Christian church. Believers are not any different from none-believers here as they too line up for the latest Hollywood production or the newest model of this and that, only to find themselves bored with that new gadget after just a few months.
While looking for excitement and a new move of God many believers, ill-equipped and without proper discernment, opened the door of their hearts and minds to all kinds of spiritual evil and delusion.
“…and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience
of Christ” (2Cor.10:5).
Unprotected because of a weak foundation and a wrong motive to ask for “more“, thousands of Christians were deceived through all kinds of “new” teachings, sugar-coded with half-truths. (Third Heaven etc.)
“And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive
many”; “…even as there shall be false teachers among
you” (Mat.24:11; 2Pe.2:1).
“Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets” (Mat.24:23,24).
“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the
rudiments of the world, and not after Christ” (Col.2:8).
Due to un-conquered pride many church leaders fell into a great deception and delusion first. These preachers, teachers and self-proclaimed prophets, however, found an easy prey in the church as immature believers even still today like to place leaders on a pedestal rather than praying for them.
“For my people have committed two evils; they have
forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed
them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no
water” (Jer.2:13).
Blessings, and all 4 Jesus!
Mario
———————————————————————————————
Wayne wrote:
(Quote)
A FORMER Pastor of mine infamously informed me that “…..I do not care about Bible doctrine I only care about my anointing.”
He has followed this up with an avalanche of New Age and Latter Rain initiatives.
Passages such as these in my comment above from the Book of Timothy provide a clear warning about such “wolves in sheep’s clothing.”
We are advising everyone who sees such things in their own church to follow the teaching of scripture in:
2 Corinthians 6:17, which says, “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”
Please pass this on to everyone you care about.
We best oppose error by promoting a solid knowledge of the word of truth; and the greatest kindness we can do to children, is to make them early to know the Bible. (End Quote)
Thank you, Wayne, and blessings to you!!
6-3-10
Tenderwarrior
It is impossible to be led by the Holy Spirit until a person ceases to be led by the Law. Until a person understands this truth, they can not walk in the Spirit, nor enjoy the abundant Christian life.
God will not share with anyone or anything, even the Bible, the responsibility He has to lead us. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God (Rom 8:14).
This does not mean that I do not love the written Word of God. It is the greatest gift, next to Himself, that God has given to man. It simply means that I am no longer led by the Bible; I am now obedient to the Spirit of God instead.
As I am obedient to the Spirit of God, I will fulfill all of the righteous requirements of the Law, as it clearly says in Rom 8:4.
6-3-10
Tyrone
If you believe that the things in the Bible were written just to the people of that day, wouldn’t we have to throw out most of what the Bible says? It couldn’t apply to us, because it only applied to them, right?
There are some Bible portions that fall into this category, such as teachings about temple sacrifices. For followers of the Messiah, Jesus, He is our sacrifice and we are no longer under the Old Covenant instructions.
But, unless scripture specificly gives superceding instructions, what God told them applies to us as well.
If you believe that some of the things that are written in the Bible apply to us, then what things do apply, and what things don’t? You can selectively throw out anything that you don’t like, and say that it doesn’t apply today. This is what some cults do with passages of Scripture that don’t agree with their theology.
So, we either believe that all of the Bible is inspired by God, and is profitable for doctrine (what we believe (2 Tim 3:16)), or we might as well throw it all out as uninspired and unprofitable.
Understanding what applies today, and what no longer applies to us is what scripture describes as, “rightly dividing the Word of Truth” (2 Tim 2:15). Few people understand.
Finally, we need to divide between believing what it says, and doing what it says. The Law is for those under the Law, and Grace is for those under Grace.
If I am under Grace, I can still believe what the Law says, but I don’t have to do what the Law says (dead to the Law); now I do what the Spirit says (alive to Christ).
GAry Simpson said:
“This does not mean that I do not love the written Word of God. It is the greatest gift, next to Himself, that God has given to man. It simply means that I am no longer led by the Bible; I am now obedient to the Spirit of God instead.”
—
So what’s the problem?
I’m not sure that anyone is saying that we be “led by the bible” – we are led by the God who is revealed in the bible.
The bible points to Him.
But if we cast out the bible we miss out on that unique revelation He has provided in His word and we make ourselves suceptible to being led astray by a different god and a different spirit.
The proof of that can be seen throughout the church where scripture is ignored or misused.
It is seen in the extreme charismania centred on very questionable signs and wonders presented by celebrity ministers who claim to be led by the Spirit.
It is seen in the others who claim to be “bible based” but in reality are based on the teachings of dead theologians.
EVERY departure from the faith, every presentation of a false gospel, has its roots in trusting in something other than the revelation God has given of himself through scripture.
How do you know it is the Spirit of God you are obeying? What makes you different form the countless others who have been led into error by following what they claimed to be the Spirit of God?
How do you recognise the true Spirit from the false?
How did you even KNOW there was a Spirit of God to obey?
Through scripture.
So what are we to make of those who advise us to stop reading scripture?
What are we to make of those who say their own words are equal to scripture?
Where are those suggestions leading us?
6-3-10
David Larsen
Just reading up on the destruction of Jerusalem is not the key to understanding the Bible. If this were the case, a pagan could read up on history and understand the things of God as well as any believer could.
Scripture says that the things of God are spiritually discerned. If we want to understand the things of God, we must go to the one who will lead us into all truth, the Spirit of God (John 16:13)
6-3-10
Tyrone Palmer
You said in a previous post:
“If anyone receives a word directly from God and writes it down, that is scripture. Scripture simply means inspired writings.”
Your statement is wrong. Scripture is the written word of God for His Church. It applies to everybody in the Church throughout the Church Age.
If anyone receives a word directly from God (prophecy), whether he writes it down or not, it is not scripture that applies to the entire church, but it only applies to those to whom God directed it.
Gary Simpson said:
Your statement is wrong. Scripture is the written word of God for His Church. It applies to everybody in the Church throughout the Church Age.
If anyone receives a word directly from God (prophecy), whether he writes it down or not, it is not scripture that applies to the entire church, but it only applies to those to whom God directed it.
—-
Gary this an excellent explanation of the difference.
It is also the answer to those who question the validity of present day prophecy because they say it would be adding to scripture.
6-3-10
Mike Helms
When God spoke truth to the apostle Paul to be written down as scripture, it was God’s truth.
When God speaks truth to His Prophet today, to be spoken to men, it is not scripture, but is still God’s truth.
Because it is scripture does not make it a higher level of truth than what prophecy is. They are from the same source (God), and have the same level of truth.
The difference is not in the truthfulness, but in the recipient. Scripture is for and applies to the church throughout the Church Age, where prophecy is only for those whom God sends it to.
Gary Simpson
Never did i say that knowing about the destruction of Jerusalem
is the key to understanding the bible. But a lot of what the bible has to say about what most call the end times was to those at the time and the end of there world was at hand in the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus himself spoke about it and much of what he had to say was for those who he was speaking to at the time and not some people 2000 years later. In understanding these things many would be able to put what they call end time prophecy in the correct lite. I am well aware of the fact that it takes being born of the living word of God to understand the written words in the bible are you? What a bit of advice Gary you would be much futher ahead if you just stated what you believe instead of marking off everbodys name who you think are in error because i can tell you right now that you are the one who has mis quoted and are in error on much of what you have said in judging others Take Tyrone for instance you pick out the part that you believe is wrong and you have not listened to the heart of what he has written you are the one in error if you would listen with the heart instead of your head you would see that he is trying to help you and others here as Jesus did but not many could hear him either and still cant. Just some food for thought Gary if in the future you continue to see it as your job to set everbody straight.
6-3-10
Robert Winkler Burke
In your post to Onesimus, you said:
“Guess what, all you bible thumpers…. God wants you flexible…. so you can lead. And stop destroying Christ-in-you as you destroy Christ-in-others.”
You are right in saying that God wants us to be flexible (and not tied to a rigid set of rules), but
You are wrong in saying that God wants us to lead. He wants us to be led by the Holy Spirit so that as He moves, we move (yoked together).
Doing what the Bible says is not the source of our walk with Christ. It is the result of our walking in the Spirit (obedience to Him).
6-3-10
Onesimus
In a recent post, you said:
“I don’t worship scripture but I worship the God whom scripture reveals. I definitely don’t worship a “god inside” who contradicts the Holy Spirit inspired books and letters of the bible.
You can keep that god for yourself.”
Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. The “Real God inside” is what Paul described as “Christ lives in me” (Gal 2:20), and we need to worship Him. If Christ does not live in you, then you are not a Christian.
We just need to be sure that we have the right Jesus and the right Spirit living in us. If we do, what we say will not conflict with what the written word of God says.
6-3-10
Onesimus/RWB
Remember that the source of insults is the flesh, and not the Spirit of God. We are either under the control of one or the other. What comes out of our mouth (or our computer) will reveal who is in control of our lives. That is why scripture teaches us to walk in the Spirit.
6-3-10
Mario
1- There is, and always has been, only one bible. It is God’s word to the church, and will not change, even though many men have tried.
2- In Acts 19, Paul goes on to explain why they did not have the Holy Spirit; it was their baptism of John of repentence. When they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, and Paul laid his hands on them, they received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues and prophesied. I don’t understand your point?
3- In the church, Jesus said there will be wheat and tares (or sheep and goats). Some are real, and some are counterfeit. This helps to understand why some people in the church believe the strange things that they believe, and do the strange things that they do.
6-3-10
Mario
Your previous post said:
“Question: Why would the Lord have someone write about events that are not relevant during the time when it was recorded?”
The purpose of future prophecys is to show that God never makes mistakes in anything that He says in Scripture, and in so doing He instills in us faith in Him.
6-3-10
Tenderworrior
Your previous post said:
‘People are people and sometimes even Godly people just have different personalities and aren’t compatable.’
Godly people who walk in the flesh aren’t compatable, but Godly people who walk in the spirit are compatable. The spirit in me does not have any problem getting along with the spirit in you if both of us are controlled by God’s Holy Spirit.
The Bible is indeed much more than just a compilation of God’s Word in written form.
There is a mysterious, supernatural, spiritual aspect about the Scriptures that makes the Bible a book unlike any other. No other book ever written has been preserved to impact mankind in such a deep and life-changing way, even to this day.
The Bible gives us a picture of who God is, His character, His work and His will. It provides guidelines for right living with God’s commandments deeply woven into the fabric of many nations’ legal systems. It serves as a measuring tool and as a litmus test for what is right and wrong.
And since satan, the prince of this world who has great wisdom and also great wrath against those who have the testimony of Christ (see Ez. 28 and Rev 12); since he is obviously able to imitate God’s voice, the Bible also teaches us the important ways of discernment. And when we are tempted just as Jesus was tempted by satan, God’s Word becomes a great weapon in our warfare against the devil.
The Bible gives us a protective and strong foundation on which we can freely operate while led by His Holy Spirit. Anyone who foolishly abandons this foundation opens himself up to be led by a deceptive counterfeit of the Holy Spirit. (see the North-American church led by Todd Bentley, Rick Joiner, Joel Osteen, etc., etc., etc.)
The reason why the Bible is the only sure foundation on which to grow and to built a strong Spirit-filled life is that God’s Word is Holy and immortal, more powerful than a double-edged sword.
All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Gary Simpson wrote:
“.. wouldn’t we have to throw out most of what the Bible says?”
Gary, I am sure that many people led by the devil himself have tried to throw out the Bible. Guess what…
Perhaps the Bible is indeed much more than just a book written a long time ago by some guys.
All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Gary wrote:
So, we either believe that all of the Bible is inspired by God, and is profitable for doctrine (what we believe (2 Tim 3:16)), or we might as well throw it all out as uninspired and unprofitable.
Understanding what applies today, and what no longer applies to us is what scripture describes as, “rightly dividing the Word of Truth” (2 Tim 2:15). Few people understand.
Finally, we need to divide between believing what it says, and doing what it says. The Law is for those under the Law, and Grace is for those under Grace.
If I am under Grace, I can still believe what the Law says, but I don’t have to do what the Law says (dead to the Law); now I do what the Spirit says (alive to Christ).”
————————————————————————————-
Gary, aren’t you glad that you have a Bible where you can read and study all of the above?
Blessings,
Mario
Mario Good word above. Thanks for sharing.
Gary Simpson,
I don’t know how to take your statements. You seem to be contradictory to me. On the one hand you say [paraphrase] if I follow God’s word I am not led of the Spirit. On the other, you defend the Bible as being inspired and relevant for our day.
Will the Spirit of God lead me to obey the Word or not? As I mention somewhere above the Bible says “flee fornication”. Am I carnal if I read that in the Bible and obey it or do I have to have some mystical experience apart from the Bible to obey. I agree that many times God breaths a truth into us to lead us on to righteousness but if we continue to read the Word we will find the thing in scripture if it is from God. But if God has clearly written it down for me to read He doesn’t need to send fire from heaven to tell me if I have read it in the Word.
This notion of “don’t” obey the Bible or your a [pick a term] but follow the Spirit and He will lead you to obey the Bible and you will be spiritual is absurd. It is like saying holiness is of the heart but if you strive to live holy you are a legalist. When the truth is if we are holy in heart it will show up on the outside in our desire to please God.
I do believe you sound like an honest seeker of truth Gary so please do not think any of this is said in a mean spirit. There are anti-christ spirits lurking on these pages but I don’t mean you are one of those.
God Bless
Mike
Gary wrote:6-3-10
The purpose of future prophecys is to show that God never makes mistakes in anything that He says in Scripture, and in so doing He instills in us faith in Him.
——————————————-
Gary, this sounds as though God told us about future events as a mere faith-building exercise.
Do you not believe that some of the prophecies recorded in Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation for example are indeed for us today in order to guide, prepare and perhaps warn us?
All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Satan does not have great wisdom if fact he has no wisdom at all.
He is only darkness and has no light in him at all. There is nothing great about the devil and never will be and any who think so are sorley mis lead. Just because he knew how to quote scripture did not nor does it make one wise. Many know the things to say but do not have the living word in them there is a huge diffrence. As children we may make mistakes i would hope that saying that in some way that the devil is great was just a mistake. The only one who has great wisdom is God and that wisdom is his word the Christ of God. The devil may be able to quote it but it takes the wisdom of God to know it. And i hope we should all know the devil does not have that. He is darkness and has no light in him at all. This is in reference to the above comment not the one who made the comment.
I believe the problem is that some here on this forum view the Bible as a book, just a book with a bunch of old rules that have become irrelevant since we now have the Holy Spirit as guide under the New Covenant. They cannot see that there is a supernatural element that comes with the Bible.
Think about it:
How is it possible that, with satan hating anything to do with Christianity, he was never able to eliminate and ban this book?
Millions of people in China alone have accepted Christ AFTER reading the Bible. Why, if it’s just a book?
Should these people, after they were saved and received the Holy Spirit, have discarded this book as now unimportant?
I have not heard that any Spirit filled and anointed leader of the past (Spurgeon, Smith Wigglesworth, Tozer, etc.) ever suggested that, when we receive the Holy Spirit, the Bible becomes somewhat irrelevant or obsolete. Instead, their sermons and teachings were strongly Bible based, and these leaders emphasized the importance of studying God’s Word.
The idea that we should be exclusively led by His Holy Spirit, and that the Bible has become irrelevant for a spirit filled believer, is a rather new and, in my opinion, DANGEROUS TEACHING!
All 4 Jesus!
Mario
David Larsen wrote:
Satan does not have great wisdom if fact he has no wisdom at all.
————————————-
“Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom…” (Ez. 28:12)
All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Yes David, we should never exalt the devil above his limitations!
However, perhaps part of the problem with the North-American church is that there is a great ignorance regarding the devil, his demons and their power. According to some research, many Christians even question that satan is real. How easy to become deceived for someone who doesn’t even believe that there is an invisible enemy.
*Rev.12:9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. “And the Lord said unto satan, Whence comest thou?
Then satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it”(Job1:7).
“Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but satan hindered us”(1Th.2:18).
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the
devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom
he may devour”(1 Pet. 5:8).
Satan is really here on earth and with him came one third of all the angels of Heaven. Some scholars say that the number of these angels (demons) was in the millions.
“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you” (Js.4:7).
It is critical for us never to underestimate satan’s power and influence. The Bible clearly warns us about the devil’s schemes:
“Lest satan should get an advantage of us: for we are
not ignorant of his devices”(2Cor.2:11).
“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled
Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be cor
rupted from the simplicity that is in Christ”(2Cor.11:3).
“Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for
the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went
to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep
the commandments of God, and have the testimony of
Jesus Christ”(Rev.12:12,17).
The devil has come to make war against Christ’s followers, and he is mad like a wounded animal, aware that his end is coming soon. In the second chapter of the book of Revelation, the writer mentions the depth of satan. After all, he was God’s special angel– which makes him very powerful.
Satan’s primary goal is to take God’s most precious creation down with him. And he works through people just as God does.
It is therefore imperative for us to have the Holy Spirit in our lives, not only to con vict us of our own sin, but also to counsel us regarding our choices, and to reveal to us when we are attacked or deceived by satan or his helpers. The Holy Spirit is the ONLY available source who has the power to expose and to defeat the devil and his angels.
ONLY SPIRIT CAN FIGHT SPIRIT,
and the war must be fought and won in the spirit first, before we will see any results in the natural. We must hand our lives over to Him completely, in order to find protection, and to attain freedom and victory as individuals, and for the church in general.
But as usual, God wants to work with us, and we are commanded to do our part. This is our protection when we obey His Word:
“Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness. And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints…”(Eph.6:13-18). “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you” (Js.4:7).
Disobedience goes hand in hand with destruc tion. The first example of this truth is found at the beginning of mankind in the Garden of Eden.
To fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and it takes that kind of Holy Spirit ignited wisdom to discern the ways of the devil.
Then you will know if you are in God’s, or in god’s presence.
Blessings, and all 4 Jesus!
Mario
The problem is not whether the Bible is inspired or not. That is a given.
The problem is unregenerated and immature man’s interpretation of the Bible.
Without the revelation from the Holy Spirit of the Bible’s inspired word’s, no man can understand it properly.
And, that’s the problem. You have unsaved, unregenerated or immature individuals trying to interpret Holy scripture.
They can’t do it!
Yes, ANYONE can have an opinion on what scripture says,but not everyone can interpret scripture correctly.
It’s called “rightly” dividing the word. Some/many use “fleshly wisdom” to discern “spiritual wisdom”.
And unfortunately,some erroneous opinions/interpretations are displayed and posted in this thread, without them seeking the wisdom of the Spirit.
But try telling this to the unregenerated/immature individual.
“not everyone can interpret scripture correctly.”
Not everyone can interpret scripture correctly OR DISCERN the “intent” of what someone is saying or posting. This TOO takes discernment and understanding from the Holy Spirit.
There are too many “knee-jerk” responses displayed, without discernment from the one who knows it ALL!
No where in the bible does it say that satan was Gods special angle more fairy tales. The scripture in Eze 28:12 does not mention satan and you just asume the it is talking about him.
Stick to truth and not some made up fairy tales that give the devil some kind of great power he has only what you give him through your lack of true bible wisdom. Most of what you have quoted above can not be proved and is fairy tales men have made up.
The devil is the devil and always has been. No where in scripture does it say he ever was any thing else. You just asume the name lucifer is satan no in the bible does it say that and jesus never once said oh use to be oh great one. Jesus said you were a murder from the beginnng or from the start. God made all things through Christ Jesus and that includes the devil. You have been told that some how things got out of control and went south for God and presto the someone called lucifer became the devil.
I gota wonder why Jesus didnt know this nor any of the apostles try to find one of them telling you that the devil was ever anything but the devil. Oh well enough of that the truth is at the cross my bible says he was rendered powerless so if you want to run around and tell every body what a big deal the devil is i for one am not impresed in the least. And after some of the other things you have said it does not suprise me. I fully expect a few more to jump in and tell me how great there true hero the devil is.
One other thing why would satan want to get rid of the bible it is the main thing he uses against mankind. He just tricks people in to believing that what they believe is truth and presto changeo the false church. Like all the false doctrines that excult the devil into some special being and people been believing these things for years and never took the time to really see if they are true.
The devil is always bad and always been bad and never going to be anything but bad because he was made that way. God did not make a mistake and he never will make a mistake because he is God and he is good and he has always been good. And cant be anything but good. It just hurts your poor little head to try to figure out why or how He did things the way he did so we with the help of the devil make up storys that make God look foolish and the devil look like something that he never was and never will be.
David,
I believe that, to take satan lightly, is part of what we see in the church today. Yes, he certainly is Not omnipresent or almighty, but to treat him as though he is a joke is just as extreme as giving him too much credit. Here are some Scriptures, which certainly explain his reality and power.
How many names for satan do we have in the following Scriptures and who are these angels?
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.(Rev.12:9) …that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan…,(Rev.20:2)
—————————————————————————
Are these Scriptures perhaps talking about satan?
And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. (Mat.17:18)
As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil. And when the devil was cast out…(Matt.9:32)
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.(Mat.25:41)
———————————————————————-
Who are the “stars” of God in the following Scripture?
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. (Is.14:12)
———————————————————————-
Who are the sons of God here? Didn’t God just have one Son?
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.(Job 1:6)
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, … (Matth. 12 : 26)
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me…(Matt.23)
In this Scripture Jesus is referring to Peter as satan. So according to the way you seem to read and interpret Scripture, satan was actually Peter?
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You say that satan has no power?
Wouldn’t you say that the following takes quite a bit of power?
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down…(Mat.4:5)
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart.. (Acts 3)
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God,… (Acts26:18)
…that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.(1Cor.7:5)
Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.(2Cor.2:11)
…for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light…(2Cor.11:14)
…there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.(2Cor.12:7)
Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us. (1Thes.2:18)
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.(2Tim.2:26)
…him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;(Heb.2:14)
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Why would God command the following since the devil apparently has no power?
Resist the devil…(James 4:7)
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Sure seems like it…
…your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour…(1Pet.5:8)
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Is the following Scripture still valid today, or is the devil’s wrath gone?
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.(Rev.12:12)
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For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. (2Thes.2:7-9)
…and which have not known the depths of Satan…(Rev.2:24)
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.(Eph.6:11)
Blessings, and all 4 Jesus!
Mario
Heidi wrote:
“not everyone can interpret scripture correctly.”
Not everyone can interpret scripture correctly OR DISCERN the “intent” of what someone is saying or posting. This TOO takes discernment and understanding from the Holy Spirit.
There are too many “knee-jerk” responses displayed, without discernment from the one who knows it ALL!
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Yes, that is why we have the Todd Bentley’s of today deceiving millions.
All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Those who would like to believe that satan is a joke and not to be taken seriously are in good company during these end-times.
In the mid nineties I received a newspaper article from a friend in Germany. In the article the Anglican Church of England states that the devil is mere fiction and that he was invented by man to describe a source of evil. The same article also stated that there is no Hell and that people either go to Heaven or to a place of non-existence. This would mean that there is no invisible, spiritual enemy, and there are also no real negative consequences for how we live. What a deception!
In the wake of Sept. 11 many calls for a uniting of faiths where heard. This has continued and is still spreading today. After the Tsunami hit Asia, our local newspaper asked for a prayer gathering that should include all faiths represented in our city.
Then there was a TV broadcast where the audience was invited to ask questions to the Dalai Lama and archbishop Desmond Tutu. Lama and Tutu were holding hands and promoting one faith and world peace. Just last year the Pope went to Istanbul in Turkey where he visited with the Islamic leader there. The commentator said that this visit was a positive sign showing that these two different faiths are coming closer. A while back one of our large Canadian Newspapers stated that globalization would be the answer for the eradication of poverty in the world.
My latest discovery was in the book section at our local grocery store. There I found a book entitled “Night time prayers for children”. Looking at the book on the shelf, I found myself wondering if Jesus’ Name would be in there. So I opened the book… There were the most wonderful prayers to God (god?) but no mention of our Lord and Savior, Jesus. Then, as I came closer to the end of the book, there were two prayers, both for peace: A Hindu children’s prayer for peace, and a Buddhist children’s prayer for peace. Everywhere you look there seems to be a push for the one world faith WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST! Satan knows full well that JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY back to the Father. And as it was in the days of the Pharisees, He will be rejected once again. Those who will stand up and proclaim that there is no possible compromise, and that there is only one exclusive way (JESUS), will face persecution for being un-loving, extremist, prejudice and against peace.
There are many Scriptures that show a rather humble end-time scenario of persecution and ridicule for Jesus’ faithful followers.
By ignoring these Biblical facts and painting a glorious picture of joyful victory for the end-time church we will only set ourselves up for a great disappointment which might lead to a falling away.
Especially here in North-America we have seen many Christians running from one conference (Todd Bentley) to another (Paul Cain) in their quest to find the Holy Spirit (Christ) and His presence. As they are running HERE and THERE they are fulfilling Scripture, which is just another sign of the end-times…
“Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, HERE is Christ, or THERE; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets” (Mat.24:23,24).
Blessings to you as you stand firm on His Word!
Mario