NEW UPROAR Over ‘THE SHACK’
I know many on this List have read the book “The Shack”. Opinions are often sharply divided over this book. Some enjoy it, while others feel it basically preaches “Universalism”. We would be interested in your comments. Below is an extract from WND about a new development in this controversy-
“HOW ‘The SHACK’ SEDUCED EVANGELICALS”
-by WorldNetDaily.
As a seminary professor and a former colleague and neighbor of
the author of “The Shack,” James De Young has a unique
perspective on the mega-best-selling work of fiction that has
captured the hearts of many wounded Christians and skeptics
and become the topic of sermons and Bible classes in churches
nationwide.
While well aware of the testimonies of many who claim they have
experienced emotional and spiritual healing from the book’s portrayal
of God, De Young warns in a newly released book of his own that
“The Shack” author William Paul Young’s primary intent was not
to tell a good story that happened to contain theology but to teach
an unorthodox view of God he claims changed his life.
Undergirding “The Shack,” De Young told WND in an interview, is
an age-old heresy universal reconciliation that diminishes the
work of Jesus on the cross and the holiness and justice of God
by asserting that everyone eventually will be saved from eternal
damnation.
Paul Young has vigorously and repeatedly denied he is a
universalist, but De Young says he was personally acquainted with
Young’s spiritual journey over more than a dozen years. De Young
points to a 103-page paper Young wrote that presented his embrace
of universal reconciliation and rejection of the “evangelical paradigm.”
DeYoung’s new book, by WND Books, is his attempt to warn of
“The Shack”‘s seductive theology and present what he believes
are the biblical answers to the questions it raises.
“I think it is very clear ‘The Shack’ is written to teach theology,”
said De Young, a New Testament language and literature professor
at Western Seminary in Portland, Ore. “It’s not just written to tell
a mystery story.”
De Young told WND his hope is “that as the truth is known about
the universalist background of the author and how it can be found
throughout ‘The Shack’ that people will realize a good story needs
to be good teaching as well.”
In 1997, De Young and Young, whose families socialized through
a Christian school and youth sports, co-founded a Christian think
tank called M3 Forum. For the next seven years they discussed
and probed topics, doctrine and problems facing the church as it
approached the new millennium. Young submitted his surprising
paper embracing universal reconciliation in 2004.
Less than two years later, Young asked friends to read the early
draft of a novel he was writing as a Christmas gift for his children.
Though highly impressed by the manuscript’s potential, the friends
were opposed to the universal reconciliation they found in it and
acknowledged publicly that they spent over a year trying to remove
that message. Mainstream Christian publishers declined interest
in publishing what became “The Shack,” so Young and his friends
formed their own publishing company.
IN NEED of REVIVAL
Now, with 10 million copies in print, “The Shack” has been on
numerous best-seller lists for more than two years and become an
iconic work among enthusiastic evangelicals, with many buying
multiple copies to hand out to their friends.
But De Young believes the acceptance of “The Shack” by
evangelicals and their institutions is evidence of a church in need of renewal.
“I’m really dismayed to see that Christian publishers and radio
programs, TV programs have basically imbibed the feel-good spirit
of ‘The Shack’ and have not critically examined the theology,” he
told WND. “If you point that out to them they feel offended. They
feel that you’re being overly critical. They feel something like,
‘Well, can’t you look beyond the doctrine and appreciate the story.’”
De Young laments “a great lack of discernment” in Christian media
and publishing that is willing to “look askance at the doctrine” if a
book enjoys widespread popularity and makes a lot of money.
Many evangelicals and churches have been seduced by “The
Shack,” he said, because the story resonates with many who
have difficult backgrounds in which they’ve been deeply wounded
emotionally and spiritually.
“There is a growing segment of our population who have a bad
background, perhaps in the sense they come from a divided home,
a home where divorce took place or even an abusive home on the
part of one or both parents,” he said. “When they can read a story
like ‘The Shack’ and find solace and encouragement from the
experiences of this fictitious person and his experience and realize
that God does love them, then I think that it will resonate with a
lot of people.”
People who have been deeply hurt, he said, “are reaching out for
a sympathetic God who they can clearly understand and who loves them.”
De Young said the book’s “Christian bearings and overtones”
encourage many Christians to accept the book and its message,
particularly those unaware of the teaching of universalism…
-Please comment on this topic below.
-DE YOUNG’s BOOK on AMAZON-
http://www.amazon.com/dp/193507184X/
-To READ MORE-
http://wndbooks.wnd.com/category/books/new-releases/
What comes to my mind is “having itching ears”
Mr De Young is totally correct.The Shack is flawed theologically and i think it is true to say that the author does not believe in a substitutionary atonement.
We can become what we eat and also what we read!
It is sad when books are released and are off course; the false Gospel and occult teachings that it conveys. Young, quotes from Unitarian-Universalist theology which embraced “universal reconciliation” – a belief identified as far back as the sixth century as heresy – which emphasizes that Jesus’ loving nature renders him incapable of eternally damning anyone – watering down the work Christ did on the cross for each of us.
Anyway, it is sad to emphasis all will be saved when that is not the case when it takes the cross of confessing our sin and the need of Christ in our life.
Any Christian who spends time in the word, and truly believes the word to be God-breathed, will not be swayed by a work of fiction, no matter how “convincing” and well written. Those who are swayed need to pick up and read THE BOOK. Controversy about The Shack is much ado about nothing.
Anything that gains wide acceptance by the world should suspect by Christians. We live in a fallen and sinful world that is controlled by ungodly forces.
Good example in the last few years of books that fall into that category: “The Purpose Driven Life” by Rich Warren, and the “Left Behind” series. All of those books portray unbiblical theology, but were embraced by the world and became best sellers.
Yes, the “shack” is total universalism.. It was recommended to me by a pastor from a repentance, Spirit filled, revival seeking ministry. I about threw it across the room half way through reading it. I couldn’t believe this man recommended it to me as a “positive” healing book. It is garbage doctrine wrapped around a tragic story.
The article exposing this work as faulty is right. Especially about it’s wrong concept of the “justice of God.” It purports that God cannot be loving and send people to hell. This is true universalism and has been around since before Charles Finney’s day. They also believe that sin is not grievous to God and man is not responsible for it anyway, so therefore repentance is also obsolete.
I wholeheartedly agree with Cheryl. I read part of the book because my daughter had read it, was very moved by it, and I wanted to see where she was spiritually. I could not read the whole thing because it grieved my spirit. I thought it was bordering on blasphemy and at the very least most irreverent. But I understood my daughter’s reaction because she has father abandonment issues. I think the bottom line is reading it from the emotional perspective or the spiritual.
Wow the authors went over this numerous times in their podcasts etc… apparently De Young hasn’t bothered to listen to them explain this aspect of the book. looks like the forest is not visible due to the trees sad. “sympathetic God” ? last time I looked God is described as love. ever meditate on that for awhile. the only people Jesus had no sympathy for were the religious.
I was alarmed when I read “The Shack” because of the liberalities it took with the Word of God. Besides the theological concern of Universalism, which most Christians aren’t aquainted with, there is the deviation from the most simple understanding of the Word such as “The Father”. The amount of applaud that this book gained from Christians made a pertinent example of how easily “many will be led astray in the last days”.
The worst thing one can do to a spiritually wounded person is lead them astray with stuff that claims to help and heal them. They need truth and love. Brainwashing is abuse, and one type of spiritual brainwashing will not undo another. We all need the real God through the real Lord Jesus Christ, and we need the real Holy Spirit too.
I couldn’t read The Shack because God wouldn’t let me. But a close friend read it and said it was most definitely a distortion of God. She also described the God figures in it as counterfeit, watered-down versions.
Re: brainwashing: Many people have been brainwashed by legalism, but a half-gospel or fake gods don’t solve the problem. Only the real God has real love and real power to heal the wounded and broken.
I did not like the book…….did not see any comfort in it….
I have not personally read this book, though I have been with other pastors when discussing its contents, and their views. Some are uncertain of the message, others reject it, some think it stirs our thinking. I agree that no fiction story should sway a Christian from Biblical truth, if they are certain of what they believe about Christ. Universalism teaching is false, as is “once saved, always saved, no matter what you do”, and predestination theology. If these teachings were true, Christ died in vain. There is only one way to eternal life in the presence of God. Believe in, and receive Jesus Christ, repent from our sins, and confess Christ as our Savior and Lord. Then live for Him the best we can according to God’s word.
personally, i totally hate the book. somebody told me that our minister had recommended it to her. she sung it praises. these are extremely intellectual people so, to be on a par i bought it. i thought i can match them. i found it upsetting at the beginning. i hated the middle and i was glad to get to the ending. i dont know how old the author’s children where when he wrote the story for them but it isnt a story line i would want to write for my children.
i dont think we need a novel to convey the love of god, we need the holy spirit to convey that love to people through us and through the word of god.
i realise that a message can be conveyed through fiction e.g. naria.
but i believe that it is god’s word the bible that should be promoted not a work of fiction. what did jesus say? when the son of man is lifted up from the earth, HE, will draw all men unto himself. i really hope the shack doesnt become the 67th book of the bible.
I read about one-third of “The Shack” and had to put it away. After reading the Scriptures so fervently for 40 years, it’s hard for me to relate to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the absurd characters the author uses in “The Shack.” Anytime someone is drawn to the Lord by the Holy Spirit, I’m sure it’s not in relation to how the characterize the Lord. The Father is the Father, Holy, Majestic, not a big fat woman, etc. How can reading what appears to me to be a novel draw someone to eternal life through Jesus Christ? I’ve been told of many that have been born again after reading “The Late Great Planet Earth” for instance, but I haven’t heard of anyone surrendering their life to the Lord after reading “The Shack.” I hope I’m wrong on this, but that’s just how I perceived it.
I read the Shack as fiction and did not have my theological antennas on high alert. But I have to say that as I read the it I found myself disagreeing with the author all over the place but I was pulled in by the story of tragedy and healing and I was hooked. I have to admit there were times I agreed with certain things that were said but overall after thinking through much of the book and reading further reviews, I have concluded that this is not a book I would recommend to anyone.
I might possibly recommend it to a pastor, ministry leader, or a mature Christian who has strong discernment to read it and give me their opinion on it, but not to the average person. The reason is because we are easily influenced by things we read and see, especially when we do not have a solid grounding in the Scriptures. As a pastor I see this all the time. The more I pastor I see that most people do not have a good biblical foundation. Most people do not know what they believe or more importantly why they believe. Most people do not have solid theological training – and combine that with today’s cotton candy teaching and easy believism and you have deception creeping at the door.
It seems people go crazy with the newest and latest without even knowing what is in these books. And when they read them (because of their own immaturity) are easily persuaded to believe everything written in them even when they go contrary to Scripture. An example of this was the “Purpose Driven Life ” by Rick Warren (embraced by the Assembly of God, Southern Baptist and a whole lot of people). It became a best seller and yet most Christians miss the fact that Warren omits the word repentance (as necessary) when it comes down to trusting in Christ.
Anyway, back to the Shack, I certainly found it entertaining and I guess this is the danger of the book. But theologically I found it wanting and actually heretical at times. I highly recommend a critique of the Shack by Tim Challies (http://www.challies.com/sites/all/files/files/The_Shack.pdf) . And I have also included a link to a video critique by Mark Driscoll a pastor in Seattle.(http://youtube.com/watch?v=pK65Jfny70Y) – video critique by Mark Driscoll
I truly cant believe that some one could possibly take a fictional work and try to teach theology. That in it self tells you where the church is at. I actually had some one try to get me to attend a class that they used the Purpose driven Life Book as basis for teaching. When will the Body wake up! The only true word that can be taught must come from the Word of God “The Bible” . That being said I am not saying that there are not true’s in these books , but you are allowing the truth to be taught from ones perspective as to the truth by the Holy Spirit. We need more of the Word being taught and less of the “what makes me feel good” If theTruth is taught it will cause you to change not feel good about your self.
I’d like to add one more thing to my comment if I may. I have written a book about my life called “Hanging From A Tree By My Knees.” It’s the story of my life of being a rock star in the 60s, a successful, world reknown recording engineer in the 70s, 80s, and 90s and it tells of my journey from the pine tree to the Cross. My book about reality tells of how I endured so many years of drug abuse, alcoholism, sexual promiscuity, thinking there wasn’t a God to being totally knocked off my horse and being born-again, and delivered from drug abuse and acoholism and Sprit filled all within ten minutes by a supernatural, living God through Jesus Christ. My book would do more to bring people to the Lord any day than “The Shack” ever will. If you don’t believe me, get it from amazon.com or barnesandnoble.com and see for yourself. It’s a book that gives hope, not confusion. (Sorry about the commercial Andrew)
p.s. As far as the pine tree, you’ll have to read the book.
Hello – I received the shack book for a Christmas Present from my Granddaughter who was at that 23. Now she has just come back to the Lord and her husband received the Lord just prior to going to Iraq, he is now home (praise God) and my granddaughter sent him this book over to iraq and it went around the camp to unsaved soldiers. They loved it and began discussing the bible, it was a discussion about Jesus, the shack didn’t come off as disrespectful to our Lord and Savour because they didn’t know any different, but now back home they have compared and now say wow, that book really encouraged me to come to Jesus. Now I read it and I didn’t backslide, I thought it a CUTE book for new beginners who never heard the word, now as I was reading it, I knew better, but wanted to know why my granddaughter liked it so well as to send it to me. It was a confirmation to say Gramma I’m back, Jesus is my Lord. She and her husband are going to a good bible/teaching church and no harm came out of the shack, Now I would get this book for a Christian that has been serving God for many years. They would know better as I did, alot of it I passed over, but saw humor in some of it, but in some I found a much meaningful message for a unsaved person. If a Pastor is encourageing the congregation to buy the shack after being a christian for many years, I don’t want to judge but I don’t know why – to spend $15.00 for a book that has a beginners mentality, this is not a put down for new babes in Christ, it is just to explain, Pastors should be offering bible companions to study the bible more in depth. The more you read the closer the walk is with our Lord and Savour. I’ll tell you why I liked this book, I was a orphan and as a child I was abused alot, sexually/physically/emotionally, but the fact of the matter is that after a beating I would go behind the barn me and my dog and I would talk to the man in the sky who the nuns told me about (this God who would love us if we were good and punish us if we were bad) so this man in the sky became my pal. Ya, I mean this, my pal, I would say common Pal God, let’s go get the cows, or, Pal God why did they hit me, or Pal God we’re lost, please find the way home for us. Now that mentality and example of how the shack relates to me is kinda like a Pal – a buddy – that eventually with much food, turns into a Savour, A Man that comes into our Heart and Saves us and becomes to us Our Father. I don’t think this book the shack will do any harm to a person, and I don’t think that God will be or would be disappointed in us if we read it, but he would be pleased if he saw someone moving on into the bible with a understanding beyond their own imagination. God works on our level, not on the level of the impossibilities. He is the God of the impossibilities. Sometimes a person will read the bible for the first time (like me – the King James) and I put it on the shelf for 4 years until we got a new pastor and then went into the New King James. Now that was to my mind – my understand – So back to the point. I pray that it will help many as it did in Iraq as it was passed back and forth in the trenches. And I see my granddaughter and her husband growing in the knowledge of the Lord. Praise His wonderful name. The name above all names. Bless you Andrew
I read the book because a friend asked me to read it and even sent it to me. I commented to him at length. I found many discrepancies between The Shack and the Word of God. I will share my observations on The Shack should anyone so request.
I was offended by the deception, here an excellent biblical message entitled
THE SHACK UNCOVERED USING THE WORD OF YHWH TO REFUTE THIS HERETICAL TEACHING POINT BY POINY
http://www.leadingtheway.org/site/PageServer?pagename=sto_TheShack_13heresies
Did a negative review of The Shack some time ago in the Lake Placid Journal and my opinion of it hasn’t changed any. I still don’t understand why it become such a huge seller
Hey Jerry,
Just wanted to let you know that you sold me on your book – I just placed an order with Amazon.
Look forward to reading about what the Lord has done for you. Sounds like you know alot of influential folks who desparately need the Lord. I hope your story makes a difference in their lives.
My husband and I suffered the loss of our oldest son to suicide. Even after many years as a saved, Bible-believing Christian, my husband struggled with reconciling what he “thought” he understood about God and who God really is. Although my understanding (as the stronger of us two) allowed me to see our Lord’s compassion through our trial, my husband was inconsolable. We were offered a copy of the book, and no we didn’t approach our reading it from a theological perspective. Frankly, I think that that would have hindered our ability to comprehend the intended message about one of the many “overlooked” aspects of God’s character…his love for mankind even in the midst of a tragedy. My husband read the book, as did I (in one day) and God used that book to help heal my husband’s emotions. Say whatever you wish, God will use whatever tools that are at his disposal to accomplish his greater good. His first and foremost concern is redemption, recapture, and renewal of our relationship with Him (i.e. through Jesus Christ). Some of us are still living with the old testament God and have forgotten why Christ came in the first place.
As believers, we need to understand and look beyond the obvious. God’s plan and purpose is so far beyond our finite understanding. My husband’s faith in God is ever stronger than before! Praise the Lord! So whatever the author’s intent, God used it to reach my husband.
I could only read up to the point where the “gods” of the Shack were presented. I felt it was plainly a blasphemous representation of the Trinity, and at this point I was no longer prepared to continie reading, as the emotional capture of the book was no longer working on me.
Having read the book and living near the area the book is set in I found I was VERY uncomfortable with many aspects of the book. I didn’t know the name for the problem but I knew there were some seriouse theological and gospel issues presented in the book. False doctrine is false doctrine. This book is full of it. We are told to “study to show thy self approved”. We are to be Bereans in the study of the word. The “god” that is presented in the book is NOT the God I worship. Anything that deminishes the redemption and loving reconconciliation of the Love of God through Jesus Christ is not something I recommend. The book is not worth your time to read other than if you like the Joseph Oregon country side.
Whats wrong with the bible, why would God see the need to use a fictional storey to get through to us instead? If the guys Christian background is dodgy then surely its best to just avoid this book rather than take any risks with ones image of God. A false image of God can potentially open a person to another spirit, just think of the Toronto Blessing – they think God will appear as a dog through them and the next thing you know they find themselves barking (in more ways than one).
The light the author shines on the nature of love in its purest form is priceless. Read the part where Jesus is talking about how humans use relationship as control while He meant it for selflessness and the opportunity to love truly. It’s Christian theology at its purest, love others. It’s ridiculous to call this a work of Universalism when the ENTIRE book centers around man’s relationship with GOD the FATHER through JESUS CHRIST as revealed by the HOLY SPIRIT. Really??? Universalism? Have any of you read C.S. Lewis’ works? In “Till We Have Faces” the story revolves around a queen who struggles with the “gods” in forms of idols, ect. Yet through the fictitious story Lewis presents truths about God in a genius manner. If this work of fiction is blasphemy (as has been suggested) then go ahead and lump in each of Lewis’ works of ficiton.
P.S If this book were a ploy from Satan he would want it to help many people so they then promote the book, (as some have above), in order for it to become a bestseller. A non entity book would never get a widespread readership. But such things often have a time delay booby trap in them. What had they taken into their souls without realising it?
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A parrallel – I once got a little bored with my worship music, (I didnt have enough variety back then), so I started listening to Rastafarian praise as well and sang along to God to it,(the words seemed the same mostly). This seemed to have a beneficial effect on me and my attitude to God. Years later I went to a deliverence minister who had a word from God to pray against a spirit of Rastafarianism that had attached itself to me. He prayed and this influence lifted – I felt it. So that spirit had hung around me silently for years like a sleeping agent of Satan.
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My guess is that this book is opening all who read it and accept it to a spiritual influenece that may not manifest for many years. A spirit of Universalism by the sound of it. When that issue confronts such people years down the line then the bad fruit may try to manifest, they may feel themselves very attracted and drewn tpo to such false doctrine as if by a magnet. Stick with the bible especially if you are a young Christian.
PPS, To Aaron above, almost all deceptive works talk about Gods love, often in the most poetic and attractive way, thats whats deception is like. Think for eg. of Ragneesh of the orange people and just about every other New Age cult.
My sister was a Pastor for several years and came into a very bad state of break down. She also went through extremely bad health at the same time, which was a shock because she had received many miracles of healing on her body in times past. She has since left her public role of Pastor, but loves the Lord tremendously. During the worst part of her trial I was trying to get help for her from many quarters, hoping for specialized ministry, someone that could sit and pray, counsel her, as I had been praying for her for some years and couldnt seem to see any break through. I finally went to an Apostle, who was led of the Lord to give my sister the Book the Shack, having said that “God had told him to give her this”. He also told me privately God had shown him my sister would have a bad reaction to it. Desperately seeking relief, she read the whole book in one night, going into the early hours of the morning. Here was a distressed woman, reading something an Apostle had given her “as led of God”. So you can imagine the hope she had in finding the answer to her problems. And I am not in any way decrying this Apostle’s actions, or even suggesting that God didnt tell him to give this book to her, as I have a tremendous amount of respect for this man. But the reaction my sister had was to feel as if she wanted to throw the book across the room…and was terribly, terribly angry. It also temporarily took away from her, her own understanding and vision of who God is. She was in a very bad state for a couple of weeks or so after reading the book. She told me this..she was left with this image of the black woman…and she was near on hysterical, as the Book did nothing to help, but made matters worse for her. My sister then got about deeply praying to God about the book, and she felt God lead her to read it again, and this time slower. Which she did. She read it with a different “view”. And read it as more like a story. Things seemed to ease for her a bit inasmuchas she did not have that same anger towards the book. Having said that, she still did not like the book at all. And it did not help one iota in her own dilemma. I was watching all of this reaction, and thought I am going to buy this book myself and read what is in it. To have such a bad reaction on my sister…there must be something in this that triggers things. So I bought a copy and read it. Well I did not like it. I found it blasphemous. I can see where it would appeal to Christians who have been wounded, through the emotions. But thats just it, it is through the emotions. But I dont believe it to be the true answer that can only be found in our holy [with the emphasis on holy] and loving God. In His true work of redemption. He is absolute Truth. The Shack is not a book of Truth, and I believe it has a multitude of flaws, I dont see why a book should be allowed to portray such a Holy God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in this manner. I would not recommend the book to anyone. It made my sister temporarily worse by far, and both my sister and myself still dont like it, and we wouldnt recommend it to anyone. Especially to anyone who has real need of help. I am still not sure as to why God led the Apostle to give this book to my sister to read, or for what ‘ultimate’ intention/outcome that action may have had. Its great how the Lord appeared to use this book to heal the emotional wounds of D.B Connor’s husband in the post above..I do understand how can God can use “anything” he so desires to reach people, but all I can say is this is ‘my story’ and I dont like the book and even would go as far as to say believe it to be dangerous. I agree with the above comments that it teaches “universalism’. Lesley.
I have read this book, after reading it, and after all the hype that followed, I came to this conclusion. The problem is NOT the book, the problem is the Church. It has lost it’s salt and light and hungry people are looking for answers for all the chaos in their life and the Church is not able to fullfill their questions. A prime example of this is the fiasco last year in Florida and the Lakeland “revival” and many were Christians who are not filled with the word and light, thus are deceived and follow after the god of this world. True revival must begin with the lifestyle of repentance.
Paul Young said this book was never intended to be taken as theological work on the Trinity or Eternal Judgment. Paul Young experienced an encounter with Father’s love that changed him, changing the way he sees the nature and character of God; it didn’t change his fundamental evangelical theology. Studying theology is no replacement for intimate moments with a loving Father. The Shack was an attempt to show how deep and wide is the love of God even for the worst of sinners. The Word of God is full of paradoxes and can easily be misunderstood by those who lack intimate relationship with the Author. The Paradox brought out in the Shack: God loves murderers more than you love your own children and will not spare any expense that they be forgiven. At the same time he will judged the wicked and cast them into the Lake of Fire. The Shack is not a book on Universalism which is heresy. It is a book on the nature of His Great Love!! Be careful brethren lest the message of repentance become one of critsism and judgement and you find yourself like Jonah self-righteously sitting on a hill overlooking Nineveh mad because of God’s mercy toward them. Do not judge someone thinking you know the motivations of their heart (which only God knows) lest you be judged.
Someone from our fellowship started reading the book. Because Micheal W Smith recommended this book he told us every week what happend in The Shack. At one stage he mentioned that according to this
Book there are 3 levels of imporyance of God. 1. The Father 2. The Son Jesus and then 3. The Holy Spirit. He then at a later stage told us that there are a lot of things he does not agree with in this book.
He ended up telling us that it is a good story, but there are a lot of false facts in it.
A large percentage of christians who read this trash and and were decieved into believing it could add a whole new dimension to their religious understanding are sadly lacking in faith and knowledge of godly scripture.know the truth and the truth will set you free.{many will be decieved,false doctrine is everywhere}
Many churches have become so worldly that sometimes its hard to recognise a rock concert from a sunday service!
As we read this part {people who have been deeply hurt,he said,are reaching out for a sympathetic god who they can clearly understand and who loves them.}C”mon brothers & sisters it is actually a god given purpose that we are the light & salt to give freely gods love inside us to a hurting world no matter who or where that person has come from.
We cannot give love truly until we humble ourselves and allow the father to transform us into the image of his son Jesus Christ.
Read scripture,pray about everything,rebuke your pride,worship and ask father god to transform you from the inside out.GOD LOVES YOU!!!
Gee wizz, don’t you think most are boxing God. Do you think he will not use “the shack” to draw people to him self. It’s not the bible it’s a story the shack and the holy spirit can use it. I remember once reading years ago in russia about the underground church and how some organisation printed a blasaphmous article that used scripture refernces- the underground church where thrilled cause they cut out the scripture verses and used them. I think we should not grind our religious theological axe- who are we to say that God will not use this book to encourage people to seek God out- it may be the first book people come cross that even mentions the idea of Jesus…..its a journey and Jesus will use the book how he wants…yeah i appreciate the theogical perspective that people have and they are probably correct on most…but how many people reading the book(one time) will think so painfully critical about the theology behind it-only a schlor…it’s not a book that some one will re read and keep on reading….who r we to say that Jesus will not use the book for his glory….it has sold so many copies world wide…..most people who don’t know anything about the bible will not be approaching it so harshly….and its a good conversation point for the unbeliever to start to ask about jesus and who he is it is a stepping stone……and he can use it
I was raised in a spiritually dead church. The same denomination as Jim Jones, the late cult leader of many hungry sheep who died with him. I met many of other religions when in nursing school, later marrying a military man and living in Japan for 3 years. I saw people of other religions acting more like I believed Christians should act than most Christians I knew. So, I searched for about 4 or 5 years in many things now called, “New Age.” The day came that everything I had built on the foundation of a belief in reincarnation, was ripped out from under me (thank God). In fury, I shook my fist toward heaven and yelled at God, asking how He could let me get this far in my search for Him and then allow this to happen. I reminded Him that at least I wasn’t just warming a pew somewhere. I then, actually, vowed to Him that, knowing suicide was wrong, that I was going to let Him answer me or kill me, and that if I died, it would be His fault. I then, while home alone, lay myself down on the carpet in my dining room and waited. In my determination, questions came against me: “What if your husband comes home hungry?” “He can fix his on supper!” “What if your kids come home and need you?” “You or he can care for them.”
“What if you get hungry?” “I will starve!” “What if you need to use the bathroom?” “I’ll do it right here!” “What if they come in white coats, to take you away?” “Let them come.!” Then, there was silence. I had never heard the sound of silence like I did that day. Then, a still small voice, clearer than anything I’d ever heard came from deep within me: “You must come as a little child to enter The Kingdom of Heaven.” In my mind, I saw the shelf full of books I had read, knowing a child could not understand them. I asked, “Then, how can I be saved? Who am I to worship? “Whoever shall call on The Name of The Lord, shall be saved.” “What is your name?” “There is no other name given under heaven by which a man can be saved other than The name of Jesus.” I jumped up off the floor. I laughed. I cried, I asked to be forgiven for all my sins, and saw the awfulness of my error. I felt wave after wave of cleansing, and began to feel as light as a feather. I said, “Thank you.” But, it was not enough. That night, I burned a galvanized metal trash can full of books, and my Ouija Board, and 2 others I collected from neighbors. Soon after this, a lady that had been praying for me brought me a small book about the baptism of The Holy Spirit. I had not been taught this, and was afraid of reading anything else written by man. However, this was mostly scripture. I just wanted some way to tell God how thankful to Him I was for His forgiveness and for all the joy I felt. And, I wanted to express the love I felt for Him. I was home alone again, and went up to my bedroom and knelt down by my bed and prayed, “Lord if this is from you, please fill me, but if it is not, strike me dead rather than I receive something from the devil.” I spoke one word that had formed in my mind and then many many followed until I was spent.
Scripture came alive. I loved the KJV of the Bible, I once abhorred (the language used, not The Word Itself). And, now, thirty-four years later, I can almost smell occultism and new age, teachings and spirits. When helping some younger women in my church who came to me for help in The Word, one night, one brought up the subject of “The Shack.” They were raving about how beautiful and deep and awesome it was. A red flag went up instantly. But, I said nothing. I came home, got online, and read excerpts from this book. They sounded lovely and deep, indeed………JUST LIKE THE NEW AGE STUFF I had dabbled in so many years before. I told my pastor and I told the ladies. Since then, many things have happened. I think they realize I do know that of which I speak, and that God had blessed me with the Gift of Discernment, and now, after The Shack, Todd Bentley, and a bad marriage of one of them later, they are more apt to listen and to hear The Truth. I hope anyone reading these comments will believe me as well, when I say that The Shack has New Age all over it and in it. However, please pray for the author and those who love his book. Perhaps many or all of them have only seen dead religion like I had, and are starving and dying of thirst spiritually, and are only trying to find something real. I was into stuff for the good in my on mind, and was deceived. I believe God protected me because He knew my heart, and that it was Him I was seeking. He waited until I gave it all up and turned to Him with everything in me. I love Him so much. Evil power is very real, and sometimes dressed in light. But that light is darkness. I’ve been there, out of body experiences and all. THE POWER OF LOVE is much greater, and He is good all the time. He has all power under His ultimate control, but The Power I desire the most is Him, the God of Love, and everything Good and Pure. Please put The Shack down, pick up The Word, do what it says in Romans 12:1 from your heart, and watch God give you day by day, line upon line, precept upon precept the Truth and Beauty you seek. The reality of God, and knowing for yourself He is God, and believing by faith, you will have the whole Gift of God,and if you seek the revelation of Jesus with a pure heart, and ask, He will help you unwrap The Package that is Him (The Word), and show you His Glory. The Seed you plant IS NOT money. It is The Word of God, The children of the Kingdom, and Jesus Christ, The Son of God. That is what The Word says, and It is written that He exalts His Word above His Name. Be blessed in Him, not the frailty of man.
This about sums it up from Kimo: “Be careful brethren lest the message of repentance become one of critsism and judgement and you find yourself like Jonah self-righteously sitting on a hill overlooking Nineveh mad because of God’s mercy toward them.” To act as if simply because some story or teaching is not “theologically perfect” that aspects of God can not be revealed through it, is not only ignorant, but wildly arrogant. Who here has perfect theology? Also, I want to point out that most people who are bashing this book continuously focus on the “knowing of the scripture” (which is crucial, don’t hear me wrong) rather than the knowing of the heart of the Father, rather than the knowing of how to love as Christ loved. Some of the most evil men in the world could recite the Bible verbatem. Knowing the scriptures and theology is important, but let’s not become the pharisees who knew the whole law and had know idea what the heart of the Father looked like when it was directly in front of them.
Kimo, its good that we dont be like Jonah, that was a good reminder. Point taken. I am just querying something here. You mentioned in your post the following: “Paul Young experienced an encounter with Father’s love that changed him, changing the way he sees the nature and character of God; it didn’t change his fundamental evangelical theology. Studying theology is no replacement for intimate moments with a loving Father.”
Jesus said we are to be born again of “Spirit and Truth”. If Paul Young experienced an encounter with the Father’s love that changed him, changing the way he sees the nature and character of God, but didnt change his fundamental theology. Seeing as theology is the study of the character and nature of God…then why would the “experience” of the loving Father he had, be different than his basic fundamental knowledge he has of the Father? Don’t you see a discrepancy here? Lesley.
I was given this book from another coworker to read. She wanted my opinion. AS I was excited that she saw JESUS in me. I read the book with discernment. I did see doctrinal issues I did not agree with. HOWEVER… I am a Christian counselor, and in all abuse there needs to be forgiveness to be healed. I saw the message of this story to be forgiveness…. If GOD can use a donkey He certainly can use a book like the SHACK.
I sense that us “Christians’ Can be too heavenly minded and no earthly good. I sense that we need to look for the meat and spit out of the bones. I certainly have not arrived and am teachable and can see the good in this book. I saw this message as one of forgiveness. The Father had to forgive… WHo doesnt? WHo does not will not be forgiven. That is what I see and I know that as an intercessor that prays for revival I check my heart daily.. I pray fervently for the “Church”". If we all look at our own hearts revival fires would purify us and we would see the good in all things evern in this book the SHACK.. That is what I see…
In Christ
Frannie
God’s forgiveness, is based upon repentance, period (Luke 17:4).
There is no forgiveness without it. Jesus said; “except ye repent…ye shall all perish”. Jesus told his apostles to go forth into the world and preach ‘repentance…and the remission of sins.”
These things being scriptural; there is no such thing as ‘blanket forgiveness for all’ for it would take away the foundation of the cross, for repentance, for endurance until the end, for obedience and Holiness. I’ve got a few rules in life; one of them is this: If it contradicts God’s word, throw it out… it’s from Satan. Ah, we are wise to his sneaky little ploys. Thank you Holy Spirit!
De Young has it right – Young has it wrong!
A couple of years ago, I suffered a total mental meltdown as a result of a series of tragedies which happened relentlessly one after another. Job (Biblical Job, that is) is now a good friend of mine… and while I was recovering, I was handed a copy of The Shack.
Even in my weakened mental capacity & heightened confusion over the events which had just recently occurred… the Spirit of the Lord was able to get through that mental fog and alert me as to the ‘spirit’ behind that book! Praise the Lord… so I put it down in obedience to His leading and I can honestly say that I’m so glad that He rescued me from reading that garbage!
Imagine getting even more rubbish into an already very confused mind… but God is so good and I give Him the praise He is so worthy of.
I ask you this: What is your ‘gut’ reaction telling you? Maybe the Spirit of the Lord is trying to tell you one thing & at the same time your flesh may be telling you something different.
May I suggest that you listen to the Lord and heed His warning… DO NOT READ IT!!!
Many blessings
Loved the book. Much of it had been taught to our prayer group by the Lord and we were really happy to see the teaching in print. People need to forget what the Church has been teaching for so long and throw all their religion away and just love the Lord and draw close to him. Whom the Lord has set free is free indeed. I was in the Church for many many years and they do not have the truth……just things that were taught by other men as truth. The bible states that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and if you don’t believe that then you need to throw your bible away.
De Young’s comment: “I’m really dismayed to see that Christian publishers and radio programs, TV programs have basically imbibed the feel-good spirit of ‘The Shack’ and have not critically examined the theology,” portrays a widespread phenomena in “christianity”.
This phenomenon stretches from reinstating fallen “ministers” to “ministry” (because of their “gifts”) to singing choruses and hymns that contradict New Covenant teaching (because of their “blessing”), not to mention worldly counselling, etc. And the “overlooking” commercial aspect that De Young highlights.
The common misrepresentation of New Covenant teaching and the misapplication of Old Covenant teaching underlies it.
Itching Ears! Deceived and Deceiving Others, If Possible Even The Very Elect! The Word Of God Will Not Be Altered Because Someone Has Suffered In This Life, As Many Of The Readers Of The “SHACK” Erroneously Believe. How Terrible That So Many “PASTORS” Are Feeding These Lies To So Many Of The Lords’ Sheep… Teachers Will Receive The Stricter Judgements, the Bible Tells Us This.
Also, One of the Biggest Reasons For The Mass Deceptions Occuring, As They Are, Through Things Like The SHACK, Is That ONLY 3% Of North American Christians Know What The BIBLE, THE WORD OF GOD “Actually” Says!
TRUE PROPHETS Of God Arise!!… PREACH THE GOSPEL!!
I wrote a review of the shack a couple months ago. I had no idea how many Christians were in support of it until the comments started to pour in.
I don’t think that clean water can remain clean even if there’s just a tiny bit of poison in it. And “The Shack” has more than just a little poison.
In fact, I don’t know if it’s a good idea bringing the book back to conversation again. More free publicity.
Anyways, my review can be read here:
http://www.nationpains.com/blog/?p=305
That is why Smith Wigglesworth and others only read the Bible and nothing else…Especially today…Jesus said #1 Do not be deceived! Fall in love with the Word…Not all of these Christian books and authors…
Free from Indwelling Sin
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Sonship Through the Spirit
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
From Suffering to Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The BIBLE is TRUTH…The Shack is FICTION
I read The Shake a while back and loved it as a fiction book which it is.I would highly recomment it as a tool for God to work in the unsaved. I have first hand experience of how God uses books (be it positive thinking books or whatever) to get through to us blind unsaved lost people. I really don’t think we should limit God as human beings He’s so much bigger than us!! Its not always easy to get none Christians to talk about spiritual subjects but if this book opens up even one conversation that leads to salvation surely thats not a bad negative thing?
God used a very dodgy book to get through to me 21 years later i’m still totally His and completely grounded in His word. All things can be used for Gods glory Amen
Sue,
No, we must not limit God, but God limits us, and He said that we are to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. It is also written to be sure that the light in us isn’t darkness. And to those in the last days, especially, he warned of strong delusions and deceivers and lies. He warned that the deceptions would be so strong that if possible they would deceive the very elect.
Kingdom Secrets: by Hank Van Zyderveld
… Recently a “Holy Spirit” thought came to me.
It takes the complexity of this life to be able to come into the fullness of expression … to finally rest in the completeness of the “Living Christ.”
T. Austin Sparks in one of his writings says, I quote:
“God always begins from completeness. He has everything in Himself fully and finally – before He makes a beginning, and all His subsequent activities are really working backward to fullness, although to man they appear to be the new things of God. The course then, has been that God begins with fullness. Man falls away and loses that fullness. Then God reacts and steadily moves in progressive and gradual recovery of that fullness.” End of quote.
To elaborate on these thoughts further, please consider,
I believe the reason our great God and Savior allows us to fall away from fullness and lose it, is so that when we gradually recover to fullness (in and through Christ in due time and season), we will recover with a new profound completeness that comes with a deeper, richer, and purer understanding of whom Father God, Holy Spirit, and Jesus the Christ are in their eternality. It is through the many trials and tribulations we experience in this life and with each other that eventually brings us back to fullness through the work of redemption. No matter how free we believe ourselves to be, as long as we have breath to breath, we will continue to experience times of testing’s that are always under God’s carful control regardless of who we are. These experiences are critical for our ultimate eternal perfection! If this is not so, then there would be no point for anyone of us to experience the process of reconditioning – through the sanctifying work of the “Living Christ.”
Not one thought, word, or deed, pain, sorrow, or joy, experience – good, bad, or ugly, will ever be wasted in this life. Every aspect of every detail in this God given life is for the benefit of the perfecting of our character. May we all glorify and magnify the name of God almighty to the ends of the earth, and throughout all of His creation! I say this with great humility and with the utmost respect for all who have, and still are suffering!
The pain from the atrocities of evil that permeate throughout the earth staggers and boggles the human mind. Who can comprehend the benefit of such insanity? Crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, holocausts, genocide, murder, torture, war, starvation, terrorism, homicide bombings, upheaval, rape, molestation, pestilence, disease, despair, loneliness, hopelessness, wasted lives and endless suffering. Where is God in all of this madness? Does He even care?
I believe that He does care, and that He is in perfect control. His hands are never tied by the conditions of this world.
Every day we have the opportunity to either administer love, or receive love, to give mercy, or receive mercy, to forgive, or be forgiven, to give a cup of cold water to those who thirst, or receive that same cup. Every day we have opportunity to embrace ethnic diversity, or repel it, to reason with one another, or fight with one another. Every day we have the opportunity to prefer, encourage, build up, promote, and bless one another. There really are no limits as to what can be accomplished when we discipline and bring into submission me, myself, and I.
The interactions that we experience in this life are by God’s design and too numerous to count. Only eternity will reveal the outcome of the hidden works of Christ in our lives. I believe that the biggest changes that must take place in this world are the changes we allow God to make within our own hearts and lives. Perhaps there really is more to that saying, “the first shall be last and the last shall be first!”
I firmly believe that every conflict that we experience in this life is designed by God as an opportunity for us to practice the art of overcoming in the battle field of our mind and in our physical reality. As we become more able to overcome these battles [strongholds], the dynamics of our battles will change, thus allowing us to command more personal victories.
Only God can look into the heart of humanity and perform the necessary transforming work that our souls and spirits are so desperately in need of. This work of precision will ultimately prepare us for our eternal future. We may not necessarily experience being set free in this physical life from pain, suffering, and persecution, but we can experience a perfect freedom and peace within ourselves, that no enemy can ever infiltrate or steal away.
Jesus came to save “that which is lost!” He said, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do!” Yes, God is very much alive, and He is very much in perfect control of every detail, and of every situation, knowing full well every persons circumstance! God has counted the unfathomable cost of all the suffering in this world and has placed all of it upon the shoulders of His perfect, sinless Son Jesus Christ! Not only did He do this, but He poured out His wrath upon His Son, and forsook Him! He did this, so that we would not be forsaken by God and destroyed by the very wrath we deserve. Merriam – Webster’s Dictionary defines wrath as 1; Strong vengeful anger or indignation, 2; retributory punishment for an offense or a crime: divine chastisement.
Luke, a Gentile physician and associate of Paul had this to say in Acts 3:17 – 21. Friends, I realize that what you did to Jesus was done in ignorance; and the same can be said of your leaders. But God was fulfilling what all the prophets had declared about the Messiah beforehand – that He must suffer all these things. [bold emphases added] Now turn from your sins and turn to God, so you can be cleansed of your sins. Then wonderful times of refreshment will come from the presence of the Lord, and He will send Jesus your Messiah to you again. For He must remain in Heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his prophets. [bold emphases added] NLT
According to Philippians 2:10,11 it says, “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in Heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” [bold emphases added]. There are those who would have us believe that many will be forced to bow before God with seared consciences and a sealed fate of eternal doom. But this belief is unscriptural. Forced adoration with a seared conscience while on bended knee before almighty God serves no purpose and goes against God’s redeeming nature, because the very essence of God is pure love! The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia defines “to bow on bended knee” as follows, I quote,
TO BOW IN ADORATION: To Bow in adoration is intense admiration culminating in reverence and worship, together with the outward acts and attitudes which accompany such reverence. It thus includes both the subjective sentiments, or feelings of the soul, in the presence of some superior object or person, and the appropriate physical expressions of such sentiments in outward acts of homage or of worship. But it finds its highest expression in religion. To bow in adoration is perhaps the highest type of worship, involving the reverent and rapt contemplation of the Divine perfections and prerogatives, the acknowledgment of them in words of praise, together with the visible symbols and postures that express the adoring attitude of the creature in the presence of his Creator. It is the expression of the soul’s mystical realization of God’s presence in His transcendent greatness, Holiness and loving-kindness. As a form of prayer, adoration is to be distinguished from other forms, such as petition, thanksgiving, confession and intercession. In the Old Testament and New Testament, these are similar to those which prevailed in all oriental countries, as amply illustrated by the monuments of Egypt and Assyria, and by the customs still in use among the nations of the East. The chief attitudes referred to in the Bible are the following: 1.Prostration: Among the Orientals, especially Persians, prostration (i.e. falling upon the knees, then gradually inclining the body, until the forehead touched the ground) was common as an expression of profound reverence and humility before a superior or a benefactor. It was practiced in the worship of Yahweh (Genesis 17:3 Numbers 16:45 Matthew 26:39, Jesus in Gethsemane; Revelation 1:17), The highest form of adoration is that which is directed immediately to God Himself, His kingly attributes and spiritual excellencies being so apprehended by the soul that it is filled with rapture and praise, and is moved to do Him reverence. A classical instance is the vision that initiated Isaiah into the prophetic office, when he was so possessed with the sovereignty and sublimity of God that he was filled with wonder and self-abasement (Isaiah 6:1-5). In the Old Testament, the literature of adoration reaches its high-water mark in the Psalms (compare especially the group Psalms 95-100), where the ineffable majesty, power and Holiness of God are set forth in lofty strains. In the New Testament, adoration of the Deity finds its most rapturous expression in Revelations, where the vision of God calls forth a chorus of praise addressed to the thrice-Holy God. End of quotation.
Confession that comes through adoration ultimately brings forgiveness due to the fact that God’s judgment is on sin, and not eternally on the person. A time is coming when we will all give thanks for the finished work of Jesus Christ! To reiterate what has been stated before, God is magnified and glorified throughout all of His creation as He demonstrates complete love, forgiveness, and mercy through His righteous judgments to each of us that come to Him by faith. Every satanic power and created demonic principality including God’s Holy angelic realm peer into the spiritual struggles of humanity to witness God’s dealings with each individual. These satanic powers and demonic principalities including God’s angelic realm will witness God’s dealings with humanity with either contempt and pure hatred or adoration and pure joy!
My mouth shall speak the praise of the Lord, and all flesh shall bless His Holy name forever and ever. Psalm 145:21.
For I will not contend for ever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would fail before Me, and the souls which I have made. Isaiah 57:16.
Who is a God like You, pardoning iniquity and passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea. Micah 7:18-19
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14.
For the Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies. Lamentations 3:31, 32.
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. Luke 3:6
For earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Romans 8:19-22.
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be the glory forever. Amen. Romans 11:36
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22.
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 1 Corinthians 15:26.
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:13-17.
… and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself , by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. Colossians 1:20.
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men especially of those who believe. These things command and teach. 1 Timothy 4:9-11.
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Peter 4: 6.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9.
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, forever and ever! Revelation 5:13.
Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify your name? For You alone are Holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your judgments have been manifested. Revelation 15:4.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” Revelation 21:3-5.
Hello again,for the sake of the Gospel please be discerning regards everything.To hear christians actually say this story is to be used by our Father in heaven to further the kingdom must have the Lord in tears.Look do we then say that the Toronto blessing was a good thing because it brought some to the Lord?I dont believe any of these are from the Lord,they are from satan to harm the body of believers in Christ.Satan roams around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour,if only we could check statistics and see how many fell away from God and were disallusioned with the falseness of toronto and those tricked into believing the shack could further their religious journey,we would get down on our knees,repent and cry out to our Father in Heaven and ask forgiveness.
“Dont” believe anything until you have tested it by the spirit of God,amen.
Re: “People who have been deeply hurt, he said, “are reaching out for
a sympathetic God who they can clearly understand and who loves them.””
Well now, having been an evangelical christian and zealous to spread the Good News on street corners, churches, beaches, in mission work, and to those “deeply hurt” for some 30 years now in hope. prayer, and faith that those “deeply hurt” would reach out to a “sympathetic God who they can clearly understand and who loves them.” I need to ask – “who in Christian Service has not longed for this?”
Having never read “The Shack” nor followed Young but have read this article; if THIS is the bottom line of Young’s message that De Young has contention with then I reckon De Young needs to get heart and soul back to the Gospel and the Great Commission of Christ.
What allegory or paraphrase of the good news ever could be doctrinally and theologically sound? One would need to replicate the original word for word to accomplish that task. What purpose would there be in a paraphrase or allegory then? While we split hairs concerning doctrinal / theological soundness of an apparent “story” that is reaching thousands while our “doctrinally sound” message reaches only a few; could it be that the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life?
Only those who are idle in reaching the world with the gospel are without criticism of their lives or message; I believe I may now purchase a copy of “The Shack”.
One of the main arguments “for” the Shack is to look past what you don’t agree with and take the good. So here’s a question for those who would be of that opinion.
“If Satan offered to give you the power to end world hunger, would you accept?”
Same scenario.
Many people I know who have read the Shack have almost substituted the book for their Bible and carry it with them to church, right with their Bible.
Many of these people were wounded, hurting people, either wounded in some way by the church or through other life-circumstances. What does that say for the scripture carried right along side their Bible. A deeper question is, what about their Faith? What have they been taught by their pastors about suffering along with Jesus for the sake of their growth and maturity in the Christ?
I totally agree with one poster who said it was “abusive” to the person to do that, and is certainly “abuse” of the Word of God, and a grieving of the Holy Spirit.
Since this is just an opinion poll, my opinion (as verified by the Spirit) is that anything that takes away from Christ, anything that takes away from the gospel, is “another Christ and a different gospel”.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.” 2 Corinthians 11:4-5
But do not be deceived brother and sisters, for the author of the Shack shall have his day
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” 2 Corinthians 11:8-9
ALSO:
“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.” Galatians 1:6-7
My heart and prayers go(es) out to the couple who lost their son that they may find the Truth and may not be deceived!
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Michael B
I would concede that mature Christians might be able to read ‘The Shack’ and avoid the theological potholes. It is entirely possible that some mature Christians might find it beneficial
However, what scares me is the immature Christians or unbelievers. This book is a best seller which means MANY non-mature non-Christians read it. And it is influencing their views and understanding of God. That is very, very bad.
I fear for the author on Judgment Day when he has to stand before God and give an account of his life. When God is able to show him how some individuals were lost after being influenced by his book – is that something he wants to be responsible for.
If the man is such a talented author, then let him go to God and ask for the wisdom and ability to write a book which delivers the same emotional effects but in a doctrinally correct manner.
Personally I would not even bother to pick this book up.
I have read few christian books as i have found some of them allow man.s thought and interpretation to prevail.
I have read “Cross and the switch blade” Finney ,Wigglesworth, some of Luther Wesley Pilgrims progress was i thought illuminating on human nature. Do folk still read it?
About the only book i would recommend today is “Christ the Healer” F.F. Bosworth.
Pr Michael.
Andrew it has and does embrace universalism…. So much of the so called seeker friendly… user friendly… church is embracing this yet false hope….
Come out from among them be ye seperate touch not the unclean thing…. we must have real revival!!!! Rebuild the alter the fire will fall…. Preach repentance and the cross!!!! revival will come!!!
Re: Pr Michael
Quote: “Personally I would not even bother to pick this book up.
I have read few christian books as i have found some of them allow man.s thought and interpretation to prevail.
I have read “Cross and the switch blade” Finney ,Wigglesworth, some of Luther Wesley Pilgrims progress was i thought illuminating on human nature. Do folk still read it?
About the only book i would recommend today is “Christ the Healer” F.F. Bosworth.”
I too have read these books and FF Bosworth’s ‘Christ the Healer’ and taught from as a teacher in it Bible College. I won’t be too quick to envelop Paul Young’s book “The Shack” but I need to ask what need we as Evangelicals who know Christ Jesus have not yet understood of the Gospel that a generation could be swayed by another gospel?
For years (30 some) I have prayed for “revival” for my generation. I read the great revivalists and prayed even more. God’s ear has not been silent to my prayers or yours for revival. But in my spirit I hear an answer more powerful than revival awaits in the wings. There is a Wittenberg Door awaiting our generation. I don’t think Paul Young nailed the thesis on the door of Evangelicalism. I do think Andrew Storm sensed and preached as little as he now knew about it last email circular – a message still in its infancy!
There is a Wittenberg Door in our generation that awaits the restoration of all things spoken by the mouths of the prophets – ‘this present truth’ of our generation of evangelicals has not attained it yet.
I think it is always best to stick with acripture. Yes we can read other books books that help us walk with God and live the Christian life but they must be based on and use scripture, novels always carry a danger because they are the writers thoughts and interpretations and arent scripturally based.
Pr Michael – YES! I just finished Pilgrim’s Progress. And YES! it was a wonderful book. Highly recommended!!
C.S. Lewis is always a good choice. The “Screwtape Letters” will screw with your head. LOL! “Surprised by Joy” is another of his, the story of his short-lived relationship with his wife is very touching.
Leo Tolstoy is another good author. “His literal interpretation of the ethical teachings of Jesus, centering on the Sermon on the Mount, caused him in later life to become a fervent Christian anarchist and pacifist. His ideas on nonviolent resistance, expressed in such works as The Kingdom of God Is Within You, were to have a profound impact on such pivotal twentieth-century figures as Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr.” (Wikipedia)
Charles Williams, colleague and friend to C.S. Lewis, wrote a number of Christian books that are doctrinally sound and very enjoyable.
Enjoy!!
Michael B
I bet the pharisees felt the same gloating sense of self righteousness when they had Christ nailed to the cross as what flows so freely on boards like this. Jesus told parables. Stories that brought people closer to God. Some of them could never have been real. What do you think the religious people of the day said about that?
Give the man a break and realize that God doesn’t care about OUR doctrine. He leads us to Himself the way He chooses. Who are we to say that it’s not pleasing to God for someone to draw closer to Christ, if it’s not the way we did or the way we approve?
It’s great that there are people who are devoted to the Word. But every once a while think about taking your head out of the book and look around. People are dying. What are you doing about that?
If it takes an “unrealistic” story that doesn’t jive with MY doctrine to save a soul then that’s ok with me. In the end we all stand alone at the judgment.
if the gospel of matthew, mark, luke, and john, do not convince you, that GOD loves you, as He gives himself up on the Cross and dies, bearing your sin, well, I do not get how some book can…
I’ve read the Shack, and I think its very dangerous….
God is a Holy God, He has never changed, His Love Love Love is Perfect, as is His judgement
remember, ‘be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect’ is in the NEW TESTAMENT!
‘be holy as He is holy’ is in the NEW TESTAMENT;
would you sip some rattlesnake poison today? no
well, dont sip the poison of sin from the snake the devil today either!
Love and regards
Steve
Newman Hart
Yes i share your desire for revival.
In Oz with us things are quiet, but overseas we are seeing great revival amongst our people. 20,000 or so in P.N.G. baptized, Spirit filled, whole remote villages transformed, indigenous pastors, about 600 baptisms per year, Africa now looks like it may go the same way as PNG one of our African pastors has opened 5 new centres in less that twelve months.
Here is a link to some news and pictures from these places.
http://www.rci.org.au/news/#a5473cd2-6a5b-4dad-89d4-4b9fe282bbbe:889
This is great encouragement to keep on keeping on.
We had not planned to go overseas nor did we expect it to happen like it did, we were praying for revival to flare up in Oz again like it had in my home town in the “60″s – 40 people baptized Spirit filled in about 4 months population 3000-
.Michael B
There is another book i forgot, can be heavy going in the solar lunar cycles chapters, would not recommend it to all. except those who were particularly wanting to study the different prophecy schools.
“The Approaching End of the Age”
H.H. Grattan Guinness 1879
link
http://www.historicism.com/Guinness/Approaching/aeota.htm
Some may not like it, as it is historisist in its understanding of fulfilled prophecy and “strongly discredits the futurist system of interpreting the symbolic prophecies of Daniel and St. John, and in the fullest and most remarkable manner confirms the Protestant historic system.”
Pr Michael
The Bible provides sound principles on rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Acts 17:11 and 1 Thes 5:19-22 are but two of these. Every individual is responsible for what he or she believes – it cannot be transferred to a writer or preacher.
What about all the heresy being taught in the institutional church at large – which is in itself a man made organisation and not a biblical one? How many Sunday sermons are nothing more than humanistic motivational speeches that have very little in common with what was written (1 Cor. 4:6)? How many books have the modern end-times industry sold? Yes, that is what they are – and seminary professors all over the world continue to teach these heresies!!!
It is right to take action to teach the true Gospel of the Kingdom of God. But let the professors start at the right place – with themselves!!!!
The shack gives an:introduction to goddess worship,an introduction to a false christ and a denial of the purpose of the cross.
This can be quite tricky, because one does not want to compromise the truth and “Woe to those who call good evil and evil good”, and on the other hand one does not want to be a boxed up, narrow minded religious pharisee.
We must be very careful of humanism-making up a god we feel comfortable with. My only real issue with the shack is that it almost creates a god one feels comfortable with, a god that makes no real demands on the believer, nothing about holiness or Jesus Christ. I do however agree with some of the concepts of the book, which i can believe contains some parts of truth, and yes i do beleive God can use this book to His glory, because He is mighty enough and i do beleive this book can be used as ‘bait’ to draw someone to Jesus Christ, although one does wonder if the book truly does do this. I would say it’s probally better not to read these books, and perhaps safer, but If You are truly in a relationship with Jesus, then He can keep you from running into error, “The Lord is your keeper’, so we also need to trust in JESUS. Well thats my weak opinion, anyway the “Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path”, Only God’s Word will lead us onto the right path, not novels, so make sure You put God’s Word first.
The clear teaching of the Bible convinces me that, owing to spiritual death through sin, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless born again; and that no degree of reformation however great, no attainment in morality however high, no culture however attractive, no baptism or other ordinance however administered, can help the sinner to take even one step toward heaven; but a new nature imparted from above, a new life implanted by the Holy Spirit through the WORD of GOD alone, is absolutely essential to salvation, and only those thus saved are truly sons of God.
[John 1:12; 3:16; Rom. 1:16-17; 3:22; Gal. 3:22]
A little leaven leavens the whole. Any compromise whatsoever with the Word of God is a hybrid religious invention by mankind leading to spritual death in hell. This is why ALL material such as The Shack should be discarded by BIBLE believing christians.
Would we read a wonderful book about Gods love written by someone who had come to believe the same views as the Jehovahs Witnesses (and previously written a serious paper on that) just because the book encouraged a view of a wonderful creator God? It sounds as though something similar is happening here. The author sounds as though he is using this book to protote the ideas in his earlier paper.
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If the authors freinds who helped publish this book were really so concerned about some of its message then isnt it a bit odd they helped promote it? These “freinds” set up a publishing Co. That sounds odd to me. Maybe they really fully supported its message and those comments were just to detract from the later criticisms of the book. How do we know its not deliberately intended to promote the ideas cricising true Christianity which its author had already written a paper on. I would say that is likely.
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Life is random, God will use whatever He is able and even deceptions can lead to some people turning to Christ. However does that mean we should turn a blind eye or promote deception? The overal effect of such things though is highly dangerous, as someone above commented – it can be like poison.
This is why I don’t read many books, other than studying scriptures. the Shack was written for fiction purposes, so claimed… but in reality, they sold it in the Christian genre and promoted via “churches.”
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But the CHURCH has failed to be “called out of the world.” She allows guest speakers to sell their marketplace materials from the pulpit, she promoted this book, because she is sick with cancer.
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Let’s not get sidetracked about some fictional book, let’s really examine the sickness of the CHURCH.
In examining where we are at, let me summarize my so much greater concern than problems with The Shack: There are approximately 38000 Christian denominations in the world, all with their own seminaries and Bible schools, their professors and preachers, etc.
Can someone help me with a sound Biblical answer – coming from the Bible and not reading above what is written – just how close to the truth that might be?
Not sure if anyone has commented on this in their books or reviews of the shack but I found it interesting that Young chose the name Sarayu for the Holy Spirit (portrayed as an Asian woman) A little odd that it’s only one letter away from Saranyu- a Hindu goddess…
Aside from that it was so insulting toward the Lord I binned it. It plays on tragedy to get it’s new age philosophy across and has nothing to do with the real Jesus. How true the comments further up and the verses warning us against people bringing another gospel (2 corinthians 11 v 8 and9). The theology is obviously off and the author seems to have a large chip on his shoulder towards Christians and the Bible.
And sorry for those of you who think that seeing the Word as important tool for discernment is “religious-”
Much of what Jesus quotes is already written in the Old Testament- He was the Living Word after all, His Spirit inspired the prophets and writers in the first place and the sword of the Spirit in Ephesians is the Word of God…
What’s more I believe His gifts are for today and seek the Lord’s leading in my life- again I discerned that I loved the Lord too much to keep something like that in the house.
If we really love people we will want them to find Him not a goofy parody.
Sorry just re read what I put Jesus IS the Living Word not just was, I was refering to His earthly ministry. :)
Also my family and I are longing to see more people saved and really saved not just joining a Christian “club” that reads all the latest club books and is entertained to sleep. We’ve seen a few get saved but it get’s so frustrating seeing all the confusion in the Church.
Lol another mistake- Scripture reference meant to be 2 Corinth. 11 v 3 to14!!
This has just occurred to me – the possible/likely “universal reconciliation” theology contained in “The Shack” seems to also be aluded to in R. Joyners “The Final Quest”.
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Joyner states that once his civil war against other believers has been won a new triumphant form of church will then “begin drawing all men to the kingdom,” (p. 37). Is that not the same? And “the Final Quest” became a bestseller too.
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In a video on the God Channel (which Im having trouble tracking down again now), Joyner also claimed that India’s former leader Ghandi had been a Christian believer, when he was in fact a self declared Hindu who accepted all religions. This also seems to suggest that Joyner believes all men will get saved and probably that there are many ways to God. Joyner is probably secretly already Interfaith believer himself and a universalist, as it appears the author of “The Shack” is too. This may explain why Joyner thinks we should be climbing his spiritual Mountain of new revelations which he believes surpass those that the church already has as described in scripture.
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A freind of mine fell away a while back, he is still an elder at his church and appears to be Christian outwardly still but claims he has moved onto greater revelations than Jesus and the cross and now believes that there are other ways to God as well.
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From encyclpedia “Both Unitarianism and Universalism have roots in the Christian faith.” Unitarianism is a completely separate religion though and and opses the need for forgiveness in Jesus. It all sounds very nice and comforting, – no judgement day, all our relatives get to heaven etc, but it isnt the truth. Sounds like the author of the Shack believes the same and whether he realises it or not is being used by the ddevil to subtly introduce such ideas into the church.
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Two prophecies God gave me several years ago stated that some ambitious ministers, who are backslidden, fallen away “Christians,” will end up leading the Interfaith Movement in the future which will become the beasts end times religion. Its in these two words;
http://www.propheciesfortoday.uk.com/listA.php?id=178
http://www.propheciesfortoday.uk.com/listA.php?id=42
Steve.
I have not read The Shack but I have saw the Left Behind movies, with some concern. Particularly in one of them, the pastor played by Clarence Gilyard, led many to Christ and preached about the rapture but when it happened, he was left behind.
I did not understand that.
And the Purpose Driven Life uses for scripture words that are not a translation of what God said. The King James Bible is the authorized translation of God’s word. These others, so-called translations, are versions. Some of these versions completely distort what God said and some change the meaning and the original intent of his word.
Clearly, we live in dangerous times, “…this know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come…”
Lucille
I have not read the Shack, I find I have enough reading material in the Bible and the many commentaries / study books I have.
I will rejoice at the God who has revealed Himself in Scripture rather than the god of a man’s mind.
Phl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
The books of the Old Testament do a superb job of elaborately showing the difference between clean and unclean. There can be no misunderstanding about keeping the encampment of the Israelites clean because of God going through the encampment. Once we have read all of these scriptures about what is clean and what is unclean-not just for God’s Holiness but for the welfare of God’s people, it would seem that we could stop trying to find the good in an unnclean places and things.
People fell for ‘prosperity teaching’ as well. And Jim Jones. Some trust in horses, and some in chariots; but we will trust in name of the Lord our God! I say again, if anything deviates from the word of God, it’s garbage. And the first line of defense is READ His word, else how can you what deviates from it? Through this reading, understand the commitment level one must make to the Lord, and to the obdience of His word. Through these things repentance is understood, complied with, and the Holy Spirit will enter one’s being. Through these things…truth comes, and understanding. No other way. No other way.
Wow, I haven’t read “The Shack” and hadn’t actually even heard of it before this thread was started yesterday. So what I’m saying isn’t specifically about “The Shack” as I don’t feel qualified to comment.
I did have a quick flick through the publishers website last night and noted what they said but again not having read the book I don’t feel qualified to comment directly on the book.
I also just had a quick flick through the first link in the post above from “steve” (with a little “s”) and that prompted the following thoughts…
Wherever there is a true work of God the enemy will come in to sow a counterfeit work.
The true work of God:
Experiencing a deep and intimate loving relationship with God through saving faith in Jesus Christ through repentance of sin and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit and through the experience of “Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world” through personal experience of the reality of that word through a genuine conversion experience, an experience of a change of nature, Christ coming and taking up residence in our new heart and our new spirit and beginning the transformation process in us through the renewing of our minds via the Rhema Word of God – the Sword of the Spirit – using the Logos Word of God – the scriptures – to “sanctify us in the truth, your word is truth” (John 17:17). Those of us experiencing this true work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts really do experience a loving intimate relationship with God as our Father God and Jesus Christ as our Lord through the power of the Holy Spirit within us, who is also our Comforter. This is wonderful and beautiful and the most precious thing which we have as believers in this world. This relationship along with the scriptures gives us “everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him” (2 Pet 1:3).
The counterfeit work:
But, I believe the enemy would try to bring in a “false” intimacy, a “false” relationship, with a “false” “Father” and a “false” “Lord Jesus Christ” and even maybe a “false” “Holy Spirit” and a “false” “Comforter”. The scriptures do warn us that the enemy will masquerade as “an angel of light” and what is “divination”, “witchcraft”, “consulting mediums”, “visualisation”, “astral projection”, etc, etc, etc, other than trying to establish an intimate, personal, experiential relationship with powerful, spiritual entities with personalities? If the enemy can “dress up” some or all of his demons as “false” “Fathers”, “false” “Lord Jesus Christ’s” and “false” “Holy Spirit’s” and make these available to deceived souls who are still lost in their sins – or maybe even to the real children of God whose sins are forgiven them who are not yet “rooted and grounded in love” (Eph 3:17) – then he has kept those lost ones lost and he has robbed the found ones of their present experience of eternal life which is to “know You the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3).
Jesus said plainly that “no one comes to the Father but by Him”. Jesus also said that if anyone would follow Him he must “deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow Him”, that he must “hate his own life” and that “anyone who tried to save his life would lose it but he who loses his life for My sake will save it”. In our act of surrender to the Lordship of Christ, our confession of sin, our receipt of the gift of Christ’s righteousness, in place of our sinfulness, Christ – our Righteous Judge – becomes not only our Lord, but our friend and even, reverently and amazingly, our brother (“in bringing many sons to glory…”), the Holy, Venegful and Wrathful God becomes our “Holy Father”, we are “accepted in the Beloved” (Eph 1:6) and through the Holy Spirit within us we cry out “Abba, Father”, “Daddy” God. These are amazing, beautiful and precious truths for those who have been “redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb”.
The counterfeit bypasses the cross of Jesus Christ and tries to establish all this “intimacy” and “acceptance” for those who are still in their sins, i.e. holding on to their sins, i.e. still in rebellion to God, i.e. unrepentant, i.e. unregenate and sadly still under the wrath of Almighty God.
The enemy is a created being, he can never come up with anything new himself, but will only ever be able to twist the truth of God which he knew when he served God in heaven before his fall into pride, self glorification and self worship.
Anything which he touches will be a perversion of the truth, will tend to puff up the participants, lead to self glorification and self worship, the exact opposite of the manifestation of the true work of God which will manifest the meekness and humility of Christ in our lives.
We must be aware of his schemes and only accept whatever we know to be of God, through His peace “ruling” in our hearts and His word, through His Holy Spirit, bringing revelation of the truth to our hearts.
Praise God that Jesus is in heaven interceding for us right now, praise God that just before Jesus went to the cross He gave us a glimpse of what He is praying for us now,
“I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them” (John 17:9-26 NIV).
Praise God for Jesus, Praise God for His Holy Spirit and Praise God that we are “kept by the power of God” (1 Pet 1:5a KJV)… Thank You Father…
I was approached to read the Shack after someone sharing how amazing it was. I asked GOD, should I, and I got a no…thats good enough for me….
If I had to sip rattlesnake venom today I would – because it is NOT dangerous to drink. That is one of my greatest grievances with so many so called “christians” today. They quote scripture and they know the words by heart, but they live in practical ignorance. You all make it so complicated. We have to believe exactly the same as you or God is going to spit us out of His mouth, right? That’s what the pharisees did, made God in their own image. Tout what Jesus did on the cross and focus on that action like a laser as the only way to “Heaven”. How can you base so much of what you believe on what happens after you die?
I subscribe to this newsletter to hear about the amazing things that God is doing through His people around the world. This is the first time I’ve been on the forums and I have to say that after reading this conversation I won’t be back. Most of you are all too self righteous and set in your own ideas and interpretations to be of any good to the Kingdom and I believe STRONGLY, as a matter of fact ABSOLUTELY, that your idea of heaven and the judgment are going to be far from what you ever believed. And you will cry many more tears than you expect before they are wiped away. You think you are too smart. “Willingly ignorant” is what He calls it. That means on purpose.
Do you think you would do better for the lost to tell them not to read this book because it may lead them down the wrong path, or to get out and meet them where they are. Get dirty with them. Get their blood on you. Show them a life filled with Christ’s love. Most of this criticism comes from the same pride and self righteousness that nailed Christ to the cross.
When He came the first time His own people didn’t recognize Him. What makes you think you are any smarter than them? Most of them knew the scriptures better than any one of us ever will.
Open your eyes or you will miss Him, if you haven’t already.
This articulate commentary on The Shack was emailed to me and saddened me. The hateful and judgmental sentiment found within it and similarly shared by most in this discussion forum is overwhelming. I don’t care about The Shack. I don’t care what it says or doesn’t say. I don’t care if it preaches ‘Universalism’. I do care, however, about the pious and righteous ways in which this post and most comments in this forum insinuate that anyone who does not reject this book is somehow an “undiscerning”, “lead astray” individual who has bought into “garbage doctrine”. You see by tearing down this book you are inadvertently positioning yourselves above those who may have enjoyed or taken something from it.
I have read everyone’s post thoroughly and thoughtfully and I would just like to make a comment on this article and most of the posts in this forum. I spend a lot of my time grappling with Christianity and at times defending it to my friends and colleagues. When I think to myself, “What would they take from this article and comment thread?” I would be embarrassed to show them – knowing that some have in fact read The Shack – and that this article and these comments would make them feel an overwhelming sense of shame.
If this is what Christianity has become – I would like no part of it.
Please feel free to now bash me.
For comments by Pablo Santomauro, (*very critical of The Shack), IN SPANISH, see: http://www.institutointerglobal.org/artes/923-la-cabana
Can I be completely honest here? I agree with J. Goold 100%. This message board is an example of why most people I know want nothing to do with Christianity anymore:( What I’m hearing is a lot of people who think God’s power is going to be made or broken by a silly book. Do we honestly reduce him to this? Are you kidding me? There is so much false theology ALL OVER THE PLANET. There are also wars, sufferingand homelessness. Why don’t we all take our faith (which we all seem to think is so theologically correct) and spend our time thinking about things that affect people. It’s amazing to me how as believers we can get so wrapped up and concerned about things like this. God is so big. He’s also so full of grace…if people are truly seeking him then believe me, no amount of false theology in some novel is going to stop him from reaching them.
I was about the last person I knew to read The Shack. I’m usually quite skeptical about “jumping on the bandwagon” of fad Christianity. And, once I began reading it, I had a LOT of trouble coming to grips with the images of the Trinity. I was ready to simply dismiss it and lay it down (like apparently many who commented here did), but my wife assured me it was worth reading to the end. So, I perservered. The tears I shed were quite profuse and genuine, as what I believe to be the REAL story of The Shack spoke to me. That is…God will do whatever is necessary to restore relationship and bring reconciliation. The “theological controversy” is, in my opinion, a bunch of hogwash. Have you all forgotten, The Shack is a fictional work? Yes, probably a little provacative. But, is anyone REALLY prepared to say they’re totally confident they understand the race and gender of God the Father? I know I’m not.
I was able to meet Paul Young when he facilitated a small 3-day men’s conference I attended in Aurora, Nebraska last January. He is the most unlikely Christian “celebrity” I’ve ever seen. There is nothing special about him in the way he looks, acts, or speaks. He is humble, soft-spoken, and completely in awe of the blessing his book has been to so many people. He struck me as just a normal guy in everyway. There was not a hint of a hidden agenda or a theological bent to anything he said or did. He simply told the story of his life (severe longterm physical and sexual abuse as a child), and how the writing of The Shack was the fruit of his own 11+ year great sadness that was healed through intensive counseling and brotherly love. He shared some stories of how the book “escaped” and became a publishing phenomenon. But he also shared many of the divergent ways the Holy Spirit has used the book to break down barriers, bring healing, and restore relationships. (Including his own “fundamentalist” mother, who had closed the book, broken off contact, and proclaimed him a heretic when she saw he described God the Father as a fat black woman.)
I inadvertantly posted my comment (see above) before I was finished….sorry.
The bottomline for me, I refuse to take the time and energy to dissect every word of The Shack for its theological accuracy. What a pointless exercise! Instead, I’ve decided to judge The Shack by its fruit. Based on a face-to-face meeting with Paul Young, and prayer time with him and others who know him well, I believe the Holy Spirit played a large role in the writing of this book. It is so obvious to me, Paul Young had NO plans or expectations for this book, but God did. I have both personally experienced and witnessed genuine spiritual healing and reconcilliation as a result of The Shack. That’s good enough for me, and wonder what is controversial about that. I more seriously question the motives of anyone who is trying to tear down the ongoing work and blessings this book is yeilding.
Yes, God is incredibly full of grace, I certainly wouldn’t be here if He wasn’t. Yes we can all be assured all of us have some things wrong and in Heaven we’ll defintely be blown away by His amazing Love and Truth.
However when I read this message board I see brothers and sisters (not hate filled “pharisees”) with a genuine love of the Lord and concern for the body of Christ. If you don’t care about the Shack why bother commenting on a thread set up for comment on it? I think you’ll find that’s why it seems to be a focal point here.. ;)
Jesus warned us not to be deceived, saying there would be false Christs and false prophets. Does that not count? Was He being unloving? Is it unloving to warn people to stay away from certain books that could mess with their heads?
“Dead flies putrefy the perfumers ointment,and cause it to give off a foul odor”- to me even well intentioned books that have false teaching are like that.
Any non Christians I talk to lately seem more put off by the greedy money hungry big shot evangelists than genuine bible believing Christians, although obviously Christians are also told by Jesus that the World will hate them if they hate Him.
We have a friend well on the way to being saved now who just travelled through what he called the “bible belt” in the States who was overwhelmed with the sincerity of true Christians he met there who were “fundamentalists” living their lives true to the Word.
I would just like to comment that I dont see the majority of the posts above as “Pharisitical” comments, but people with a love for their Father, with the search and hunger for the truth of His true character. Yes, He indeed is our loving Father full of grace and mercy, a bruised reed He will not break, but He is also a Father who corrects. He chastises those Whom He loves. The road is narrow and not many are those who find it. None of us have got it 100% right, all fall short of the Glory of God, but bottom line it is the Truth of the Word only that stands…in Holy love. Fierce love. Apostle Peter stated 1 Peter 4:17-18 “For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God, and it if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
Thats a pretty important comment, “If the righteous one is scarcely saved”.
I too have been very abused in my life and for many years of my Christian life I did not find the “church” to be fulfilling or healing the very wounded soul within, and I looked in other places to fill that emptiness. Well actually those “other places’ came to me as in great temptation. Because there were deep soul wounds, the devil knew that, and the hook could reach in. And there were consequences for that. Because it was false comfort, false love. I totally understand the need to find relief and comfort from long term pain and loss. And there is a tendency in human beings to find that relief in the soul realm, especially if something comes along that seems to offer a true healing, but what about the Spirit of Truth?
My loving Father Whose grace I can only say has been outstanding, long suffering, has never let me out of His Hand, and I can say, as bad as abuse is, and as hard as life can be and yes even seem unfair sometimes…. that bottom line, between oneself and God, it is to do with one’s own sin nature, the nature of rebellion in man is deep, often far deeper than we ourselves comprehend at times I believe, and until that is bought forth unto God in true, deep repentance then all else is a stop gap. This may sound hard, especially to those who have been healed by this book the Shack…and I even know of a lady Pastor whose own emotional wounds were healed by this book and apparently her congregation has grown since her healing……..but once again I say, unless something is based on the Truth of the Word….how can it be truly real? The enemy wants us to be healed and comforted by false things as well…false peace, false security. The cross is not a comfortable place. We are to follow in His Image. Words can easily flow on forums like this, but only God knows whom is actually living our lives out in His truth. God help us to do this.
These are perilous and very deceptive times and my own “fight” recently has been to sort through what is false and real in God’s sight. Only by His grace and leaning unto Him can this be truly accomplished.
Andrew J Horton, that was a beautifully worded post above. Thankyou for sharing what you did. And Maria I agree with what you have also posted.
Forums like this are good, because it brings out what is there in each of us. And it is good to share. Truth is the sword of the spirit, and will also bring out reactions. There are times for sharing in love and tender mercy, and times for sharing in the Truth of that Sword, that cuts. Lord help us to have wisdom to know the timing.
Hebrews 4:12-13 “For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account”.
God bless you all. Lesley.
Ah, the bickering christians – oh how the world loves us (not!).
I read the book – right through – and I have so say, I enjoyed it. Are some of you now going to judge me as wrong? There are always those who are ready to argue everything. I believe in a ‘narrow path’ and therefore am not a universalist but I refuse to argue with a Sovereign God.
Why do we continue to dictate to God the methods he chooses to use to speak to people. If he has chosen to use ‘The Shack’ for some, is that not his business? Some people have been led astray by reading the Bible. (ah, do I hear someone shouting ‘blasphemy’? – consider sects and cults!)
Is it not the Holy Spirit that does the work anyway? Without him we are just clanging cymbols (maybe you think I’m one – maybe I am).
Religious legalistic bigotry says things have to be done a certain way, or follow a certain course by those who are not God. ( Would the prophets of old dared to have told God how to do things or question his methods?) Was this not the same error the Jews fell into when they judged Christ? Are we going to judge those that have moved closer to Christ because of the method used, as being deluded, or worse, as infidels?
We should rejoice that one has come closer to the Lord and if they are deluded into another gospel (which I presume is the argument here) we need to be sure that we are the one called to speak out and that we are not speaking with a critical spirit.
Do you remember what Jesus said to his disciples when they complained of those (not of them) who were healing in the name of Jesus? And I am sure that these are those who are thinking of the Corinthian & Galation versus that speak of those of a ‘different gospel’. But are we sure it is? I didn’t read it that way. We can read anything into anything if we have the wrong motive or spirit.
We are not always able to discern the wheat from the chaff. I believe. in this instance, we are squabbling over something that is not worth the effort. Let God be God – he will sort it out!
When I read “The Shack”, it came across to me that this book was about a person already saved and was angry at God, who was already his Father (because of his born again status). In these “last” days, God is looking to get people out of religion and into a real personal relationship with Him. If God wants to appear as a black lady in order to break through the religious walls, who are we to keep Him in a box. The Trinity is brought to us in a very personable manner and introduces us into a very relaxed, around the kitchen table, discussion. Yes, there are some things in the book that may be hard the accept– but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Do you quit listening to a pastor because you think they said something you don’t agree with. Personally, I think the book was great and I’ve read it a number of times.
There have been testimony after testimony of people who have come to a saving knowledge of God through Paul’s little fiction book for one simple reason…. it presents a different image of God then the fear message we have tried to sell ever since Origin was branded a heretic for teaching a Paul Young concept of God. For once there is genuine hope that “unconditional love” really might exists. It’s the kind of love that any father would have for his child instead of the Jonathan Edwards fear tactic where we have to use eternal damnation approach and pass it off as love and a sick form of justice. Since when do we need to use fear to sell an amazing love message??? True agape doesn’t demand its own way or keep track of wrongs suffered. True love never fails. The Shack brings a fresh and honest image of God to the world and when someone says that’s a God I could serve the religious are greatly offended. How could a fiction author have the audacity to slander our image of God? We have made our bible such an idol that when Christ stands before us in such a unique way we are too blind to recognize it. (I think Christ accused the Pharisees of the same thing.) Some of you people need to put your bible down long enough to have a genuine encounter with the living God. Once you have a proper image of God the bible might reveal a different message to you. Try reading The Shack again with a heart that says… if only this were true; and see if you don’t have a real “born again” experience!!! As long as your image of God is as a Judge and Magistrate and not the redeemer of All you will never understand what Paul Young is trying to share. I wouldn’t expect anything more from the religious pundits then to “Burn down the Shack”… we can’t have our image of God tainted with such nonsense… heaven forbid!
Surely God is not made in our minds.The truth about God,His attributes,character etc are received by revelation.This revelation comes from the Holy Spirit through the Word of God.Surely nought else is worth believing.
The ONLY way to truly KNOW CHRIST is through HIS WORD.
Only the biblical Jesus Christ is able to say, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” – Jn 14:6
False Christ’s on the other hand lead to the false salvation being “marketed” in many apostate churches today.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Without the TRUTH of the Word of God we have NO way of knowing whether the Christ we claim to know is the Jesus Christ of the BIBLE or one of the MANY false Christ’s the BIBLE warns us about repeatedly.
When we know the scriptures, and understand them through the power of God’s Holy Spirit, we won’t be deceived about the salvational points of His Word.
“Some of you people need to put your bible down long enough to have a genuine encounter with the living God.”
This statement so clearly reveals one of the main problemes in the church today. So many attempt to seperate God from His Word. This way they can fashion a God to their own liking. The truth is God cannot be separated from His Word.
Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jesus is the revelation of God’s Word. You remove the Bible and you can’t have Jesus. The two are inseparable.
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Men want to separate the truth from Jesus because their Jesus simply doesn’t fit the Bible. The reality is they are lost because they have rejected the Word of God [Jesus} and fashioned their own savior that is none other than Satan. The elect must not fall for this deception. Why do you think Satan has brought in all these modern “perversions” of the Bible. He has stripped the Bible of any authority because now we believe we can interprete the Bible anyway we want and it has destroyed Christianity as a whole.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. This means we must interpret scripture the way it was written in context not the way we want to. These so called “spiritually” enlightened folks that think they can interpret the Bible anyway they want or worse yet no longer need the Bible are the biggest enemies of Christ on the planet. His Word will stand but they will all perish if the do not repent.
As far as needing something like the shack to show us that God loves us. If reading how God sending His only BEGOTTON Son into the world to die on the cross, suffer the wrath of God in our place, and rising to be seated at the right hand of God ever living to make intercession for us as stated IN THE BIBLE isn’t enough for you to see and understand that God loves us no other work created under the sun will ever do it. The Word is alive and powerful and able to convert the soul.
Why isn’t the Word God sent enough? Why do want our own truth? Why don’t we love the Jesus of the Word? I believe we want a savior to take us to heaven but not a lord to rule over us. Well I delight to have Jesus as Savior and Lord. He loved me enought to purchace me with His own blood therefore I will by the grace of God love His Word and delight in His Lordship
God Bless
Mike
I hear a lot of people talking repentance in this forum. But I don’t hear much about what that really means….
Doesn’t it mean to change and renew one’s thinking?
I read the Shack, and it hasn’t undermined my faith, or changed the way I feel about God, or his Holiness. But I will say this! After being raised within the last HOLINESS movement, and reaping years of condemnation to my soul over not being able to be perfect, I now finally understand God as this loving Papa. That came when I threw everything I learned of the man made HOLINESS movement into the fire. Christ then led me to various books, some even secular to show me who he was, and to show me the true depth of his forgiveness and his mercy. I learned about his love and his provision that washed me clean so that I could be in righteous relationship with him. So, to me, weather Papa is a Black Woman or what ever, hasn’t changed what I feel about my saviour. I didn’t have to jump through hoops to repent. He made a way to reconcile my sin(s) so I might have that father/daughter relationship with him.
That’s what the Shack is all about. It’s not meant to be doctrine. It’s meant to get us thinking about God as a loving being, rather than this unsatisfyable God with unrealistic expectations of your human frailties.
Truly it’s not worth the debate over it.
mhz,
God’s wrath is one of the attributes that God has revealed about Himself. The gospel actually centers around the truth of God’s wrath- Jesus was sent as a “propitiation”- as the one who would turn aside God’s wrath, taking away our sins by the sacrifice of Himself.
To mention God’s wrath is not a “fear tactic” as you claim; it is simply telling the truth about God and why we need a Savior. What does Jesus save us from? God’s wrath! I suppose some people would like to just leave out the fact that God hates sin and paint Him with a warm and fuzzy brush of love- no anger, no wrath, no punishment- those things are beneath God, right?
The gospel- (good news!)- is that there is a way of escape from God’s wrath through Jesus Christ.
Believing in and understanding God’s wrath does not in any way diminish His love, in fact it only makes it more amazing- God loved us enough to send His Son into the world to save us from His wrath!
You said that “we can’t have our image of God tainted with such nonsense” such as God being a “judge”. You may want to read your bible more closely- Jesus is not only the Savior, but He is the judge of the living and the dead.
“He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.” (Acts 10:42)
Everything I have written here can be easily found in the bible. I would propose to you that instead of making up God as we go along, fancying Him as we imagine or would like Him to be, that we instead take Him as He is. He has revealed Himself quite plainly in the Word of God and we ignore what He has said about Himself to our own harm.
Mike
Ruth,
What “holiness” movement have you been apart of that preached such condemnation? I hear those statements all the time but haven’t found it yet. I associate with God’s Missionary Church, Bible Methodist, and some independant pentecostal holines churches and have never heard such things. If anything they are too soft at times. I can’t help wonder if it is that people just don’t want to live according to God’s commands. And He does have a lot to say in the New Testament about how we are to live. Lots of do’s and don’ts.
First, I have to say that if I come across as confrontational it’s my nature. I am a man of war, literally.
And my God is not a God of ignorance.
Now,
I agree wholeheartedly with mhz’s comment about the Bible as an idol. Heresy, right? It saddens me that so many people base what they believe not on a personal relationship with the God who has saved them from a life of misery, loneliness and pain, but on the words of a BOOK. And they use those words to judge the intentions of others in their walk with God, or in their effort to help the lost.
So what if The Shack helps bring a drug addict to deliverance from their bondage? So what if it brings an end to decades of resentment? So what if it helps reconcile families that have been torn apart? If it doesn’t jive with your book that was, however divinely inspired, penned by fallible human beings and COMPILED by a committee of fallible human beings (who by the way felt it necessary to include a manuscript that curses anyone who “adds or takes away from these words” at the end of their compilation… ever wonder why?) it can’t be the real deal.
Some has been said here about a “counterfeit work”. Really? Jesus said “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
These are red letters. Matthew 7
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
The parallel between the “Word of God (big W) and the Bible is preposterous and taken entirely out of context. When Jesus said those words, when John wrote “The Word was with God…” the Bible as we know it today wasn’t even a CONCEPT. I have no problem believing that the words found in it, every one of them, are breathed by God. BUT the circular reasoning that says “The Bible is the Word of God and if it isn’t true then God isn’t God” makes NO sense! And the argument “because the Bible says so” causes more believers to lose credibility to a dying world than anything else in my opinion.
Just because something you believe, however sincerely, passionately and obediently, might not be true doesn’t mean God is any less omnipotent, omniscient, loving – or any less God.
It simply means that what you believe is wrong. Get over your own absolutes and let God be God.
That’s what I was delivered from. That’s my testimony. I believed in the God of my upbringing. The God of the Bible, or what I was taught from the Bible. The God of absolutes. And I HATED Him for being that God. I literally sought out oblivion. Nothingness. I would rather not be than be a part of His world. And then He showed His Love to me in a practical way, through someone that most of the people in this forum would say is “hell bound”. Someone who doesn’t even believe in the God of the Bible, but didn’t try to force me to believe in God the way he did either. He didn’t judge me and tell me that if I didn’t I was going to hell. He told me to seek His will and not to worry about being judged, because by the time I turned back to God I was as good as dead anyway. I came to find a God that wasn’t a God of absolutes – He just IS. And anything that exists outside of Him and His work doesn’t matter, because He is God. He makes me His dwelling place, and everything else in my life is wood, hay and stubble and it’s going to disappear forever anyway.
I’m not off topic. My point is this: you would probably call this guy a false prophet the same as the writer of “The Shack” for filling my head with some “universalist” doctrine. Call him some kind of heathen blasphemer damned to hell. He saved my life. And if you have some sort of judgment to pass on that because of some scripture you treat like law, then you have the same spirit in you that nailed Christ our Savior to the cross. It was His own people that didn’t recognize Him. HIS OWN PEOPLE. Because they used the law to make themselves feel better than everyone else. To make themselves feel like they had a monopoly on God. To make themselves feel that He loved them and only them because they did the things that HE wanted them to do. While Christ was the Great Equalizer. He showed us that we are ALL THE SAME in the eyes of God. That none of us is more important than any other, but each of us is His most special creation. Bypassing THAT to feed our own egos is what we’re most guilty of today.
The problem with the “absolutes” view of God is that it’s unsatisfying. It will NEVER satisfy. As long as you know that someone else doesn’t believe the same as you, and you believe they have to in order to be “saved” that thirst will never be quenched. You will never be satisfied with the work He has done in you or anyone else. Let God be God. Let Him perform a work in your life, and when you do, that work will shine brighter than the morning sun. Brighter than more hopeful than the most beautiful psalm David could have written.
If “Christians” spent less time trying to complete a work that has already been completed, and simply do what Jesus said to do, we wouldn’t even know what “revival” means, because the goals of “revival” would be every day occurrences to us.
Wayne says: “The ONLY way to truly KNOW CHRIST is through HIS WORD.”
The very scripture that you elevate to a God status disagrees with that statement. It’s that kind of bible idolatry that keeps us from winning the world to Jesus. If knowing Christ can only happen through “HIS WORD” then how do you explain the thousands that have come to Jesus without the “word”? According to Romans we are without excuse if we don’t find God…. with or without scripture.
Our bibles translations (all them) are a wonderful gift to us but they are not equal to God. They are not God. If you elevate scripture to a god status you are destine for confusion. The reason we have 33,000 Christian variations (according to the US census) is because we have 33,000 different interpretations of scripture. Even if there was a perfect and inerrant translation (good luck) the minute 3 people read it they will have 3 different interpretations. So what good would an inerrant scripture serve? Jesus said that “knowing the Father is eternal life”… not knowing our bible.
Our problem is that we form an image of God through our 33,000 views of scripture instead of understanding scripture through a proper image of God. Big difference! God is defined as “love” and Justice Has Been Served… “Once and for ALL”, if justice has been served for the world, as scripture so clearly states, why would it need to be served again?? What needs to happen is to tell this good news to the world (and apparently to the church).
In the fullness of time we are promised that God will gather ALL things to him (to his glory) and ALL men will bow and confess him (to his glory Paul says)… even if it takes a Shack experience. If Saul can be persuaded through one visitation then he can certainly do it for your drunken neighbor. The bottom line is this… God can’t be contained between two pieces of leather!!
Have a genuine encounter with Jesus (like Mack) and then read your bible. Real Holiness and Regeneration will certainly follow.
Mhz
Kelsey
Thanks brother at last someone said something worth hearing.
Thank You.
Kelsey, Wow! Well said!
What is really funny is that what most believe to be true on this forum as to what they think scripture is saying are bigger tales about who God is then the ones written in the book The Shack.
Many quote scripture and in so doing believe it to be truth not relizing that it is thier own brand of truth they are preaching and not truth at all. The danger with the bible thumpers is that they will defend with thier life or gladly end yours for this truth they believe they now have. There is far more harm done by kooky doctrines made up by men in the name of God then some book that even a child should be able to discerne as just fiction and nothing more.
tender warrior, it may seem like that these days, but I am 53 yrs old. I’m talking about when Pentecostal Holiness was around. The early 60′s. There was a split in the movement around that time also. They preached against a lot of outward things like smoking and clothing types etc.
Most of the attention was on cleaning the outside of the vessel, not the inside just to avoid the scorn of others. So, as a child, I saw a lot of hypocritical things, where people were acting holy and pious on the outside but on the inside were still in the broken stage of their walk with God.
There were things that happened in my family that today would be considered as a criminal offense. I had a very hard time reconciling the idea of holiness with what I evidentially saw.
My offender died when I was about to confront him. I was 30 years old then. That was when I discovered God’s mercy. And I gave mercy to my offender and received mercy from God. His blood was sufficient to cover it all.
What I am saying is I lived under God’s Wrath all of my early life, and it wasn’t pleasant,because law only serves the purpose to show you how bad you do at keeping it. When I really sought the real Jesus, and put my trust in him, I met a totally different person. I found Jesus, who loves me unconditionally and I won’t give that up for anything.
This is what the Lord spoke to me about this:
“It is TAINTED FOOD. A FALSE SUBSTITUTE for the TRUE.
What do my people rely on cheap SUBSTITUTES when they can have the REAL thing : ME?
If they come to ME with humble hearts, I will reveal myself to them.
Cast off your replacements,and come to ME! I will HEAL you by the power of My WORD!”
Man being man, is limited to anthropomorphizing the Awesome Great I AM. He has informed us, through the prophet Isaiah (55:8) that “My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways … My ways are higher than your ways, and My thoughts [are higher] than your thoughts”.
For instance, He used the jewish Joseph to become the 2nd in Command, after Pharaoh, in Egypt, which included the headship of the formal pagan religion of Egypt as well. Not politically correct by the common egyptian’s cultural standards of the day! God used a betrothed, virgin Mary, to carry the jewish Redeemer and the gentile’s Saviour, to term, within a culture where betrothed virgins found with child before marriage were stoned to death! Again, not politically correct by the cultural standards of the day.
So, now here we are debating whether an author can allegorize the Trinity in order to help those who read his fiction to become reconciled with the awesomeness of the love of God towards hurting mankind. Who are we to judge? “For God sent not His Lamb into the world to condemn the sheep, but that the world through him might be saved” (John 3:17).
If it wasn’t the Lamb’s job to judge us, where do all the above readers get their authority to judge Paul Young and his writings?
True, refashioning the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by using allegory is playing with a notoriously tricky literary device at best. The most famous allegory is Paul Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress, which allegorizes the human journey of faith. In Young’s The Shack, the author attempts to allegorize the human relationship with the Trinity by tackling the question, “Where is God in a world so filled with unspeakable pain?” Both books employ allegory to convey core convictions. When authors experiment with allegory, they risk only failure and ridicule. However, Christian history, is littered with theologians who experimented with the rewriting of the scriptures to depict new conceptions of the Trinity. All they got for their efforts was the catholic title of heretic.
The Bible does not provide a finished formulation of the doctrine. It took a succession of ecumenical councils (the Council of Nicea, 325CE; the Council of Constantinople, 381CE) over the course of centuries to finally articulate the biblical view of the Trinity. Historically theologians have dabbled with a traditional Tritheistic orthodoxy, or they’ve been involved in Modalism or with some form of Arianism.
However, the bottom-line theological concept of the trinity, as recorded in Deuteronomy 6:4, is that “…our God is One”. That is, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is Our Father in Heaven; He is our ha’Mashiach (Redeemer/Saviour) and He is our Ruach ha’Kodesh (Holy Spirit). All in ONE. No confounding the human mind with trying to prezellate it’s mind around three entities=one God. Given the doctrine’s complexity, and knowing that the human mind with its limitations, immediately seeks to fragment the “oneness” concept into three separate entities. This leads to having distinct denominational theological reflections of each of these three fragmented entities. It’s no surprise that we turn to analogies for help. But, as with everything else, analogies breaks down. Most analogies drawn from the physical realm tend to be either tritheistic or modalistic in their implications. And, as with all other of man’s solutions, analogies drawn from human relationships, too, fail to convey the deep beauty of this central, unique Christian confession.
We do not hold the doctrine of the Trinity because it is self-evident or logically cogent. We hold it because God has revealed that this is what he is like. In God’s revelation of Himself through His Word, we learn of His attributes and personal qualities in the only way that mankind can know Him accurately. Without His revelation, we are left with finite man’s speculations and guesses about an infinite God. Without an accurate source of information, which only God Himself could and did provide, mankind would be left with nothing more than mythology. Such speculative guesswork forms the basis of most of the religions of the world. Their deities and their beliefs are the product of the imagination of fallen humanity (with the help of fallen angels). Biblical Christianity is the only exception. God has declared Himself in very specific terms to mankind.
Every man, woman, and child has the opportunity to spend eternity with God. That’s mind-boggling! There is nothing imaginable that could possibly be more exciting and wonderful. Moreover, that possibility isn’t something that man has invented. From Genesis through the book of Revelation, the Scriptures declare and explain how that becomes a reality. It’s what the Bible is all about.
“Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears” (2 Samuel 7:22).
Sources are: Collin Hansen for Christianity Today, Charleston Daily Mail, T. A. McMahon, for The Berean Call and James B. De Young at Western Theological Seminary.
When given a copy of “the Shack” to read, I almost rejected it, but considered that many were singing it’s praises, so I read it. Much of it bored me & I skipped through some chapters. It lacked any depth, scriptural structure, strong difinition of God’s Character, in fact I found it had nothing to offer at all, not even a gripping story. At one time I questioned the authors belief system & decided not only could I never recommend it, but would even forget it. After 17 years of not reading ‘novels’ it was a bitter taste.
The Spirit of God takes the word of God and brings about the new birth. Jesus said it, “Except a man be born of water (word) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5
And for those that do not have the written word – peoples who do not have the Bible translated into their languages – they have creation and conscience as a witness. God’s word is written on the human heart. “…Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness…” Romans 2:15
Lucille
I haven’t read the book, but I have read Preston Eby’s materials. Here’s how he lays out universalism.
Jesus is the savior of the world.
Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.
As in Adam all died, so in Christ all will be made alive, each in their own order.
At the end, death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire.
To read an excellent paper by Preston Eby click on the link:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/eternity.htm
Lyle
You will find very few if any here who could even begin to here
Brother Preston Eby though i admire you for trying. And while i myself my not agree with him on every point i have read most all he has ever wrote and consider him a brother and well worth the read. Most here would more then benifit from some time spent at the site you mention if they could do so and still remain civil and not condem you to thier hell.
Its truly awful how someone can even say , that we need to put the bible down to have an encounter with God. To have a true intimate encounter with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is to be truly born again, washed in the blood and filled with His Precious Holy Spirit. To eat of His word, to read it through and through, to pray, to seek His face and to meditate on His word! Some say they have read this book several times. and I ask you how many times have you read Gods word through and through, front to back? Hungering for His word, His TRUTH, instead of some mans ideas or notions of what God is like?
To have a true encounter with God is to pray, read the word and to fellowship and to be still , to hear His voice. Anyone can quote scripture all the day long but their relationship with the Triune is dead. Their is No life outside of Jesus Christ!
Whether this book is fiction or not it has been lifted up as though it is something better than the word of God.
This as many, most other fiction or non fiction books are ideas and notions formed by the wisdom of man, by the idea of man and what he thinks.
Not in the wisdom of the Holy Ghost or God’s wisdom. Some say the shack brought forth healing, well the bible brings life. His word washes us, purifies us. His word is our and should be true life to us, to our body, mind, spirit and soul. His word renews our minds. Brings forth a SOUND mind, and so much more.
The ideology of mans thinking is not ever , ever to be lifted up above the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost or His word and if fiction or non fiction adds or takes away from the written word of God than that is NOT sound and can lead many astray. Which is contrary to the word of God.
Just like a tooth being pulled. When that little bitty tooth is infected in can infect the whole body. So does a little leaven, again whether fiction or not.
Its astounding how much glory was given to a book called, ” The shack” when I see some have lifted this book up more than even the bible and gave glory to a book and do not bother to give glory and praise to Gods written word and how it has changed them. You lift this book up and condemn those who speak against the error of it.
This is what is a stench in the nostrils of the Lord.
They received, fell for, believed and settled for a lie instead of His truth His word! What will you believe when the lawless one appears on the scene whom is even now at work?
2 thess
8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false;
There has been more harm done through mans thoughts on what he thinks the bible says then all the other books written in the whole world. What men believe the bible says or dosent say has did far more harm then all that has ever been written by the carnal minds of men. After all werent the men of Jesus time reading thier bibles when they killed Jesus they were so sure that waht they read was right they even believed they could justify the killing of the very word of God by believeing they were reading the word of God. The most tragic thing of all is not if the book The Shack is good or bad it is that most really dont know why it is good or bad because they interpete thier thoughts by what they beleive the bible says with out knowing the true word the Christ of God. As jesus said about calling fire down to burn up thier enemys you know not what spirit you are of.
John 8:31–32 (NKJV)
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
2 Timothy 3:16
ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
The ONLY way to truly KNOW CHRIST is through HIS WORD.
Only the biblical Jesus Christ is able to say, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” – Jn 14:6
False Christ’s on the other hand lead to the false salvation being “marketed” in many apostate churches today.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Without the TRUTH of the Word of God we have NO way of knowing whether the Christ we claim to know is the Jesus Christ of the BIBLE or one of the MANY false Christ’s the BIBLE warns us about repeatedly.
When we know the scriptures, and understand them through the power of God’s Holy Spirit, we won’t be deceived about the salvational points of His Word.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
ONLY THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US
In Revelation, the Apostle John tells the tale of TWO WOMEN. One is dressed in pure white, revealing the purity of true faith and doctrine. This pure woman of Revelation 12 is committed to the BIBLICAL Christ. She’s absolutely loyal to Him and her heart burns with a love for Jesus. Nothing can break her loyalty to the One she loves so much. This woman represents all the faithful believers who have loved Jesus Christ, kept His commandments and been obedient to Him down through the ages.
Revelation 17 pictures another woman. Now we have the opposite picture. Who is this woman in scarlet riding on a Beast?
Mystery Babylon is a CHURCH: In the Bible a WOMAN symbolizes a CHURCH. This is an extremely important point that must absolutely not be overlooked as it proves beyond all shadow of a doubt that this “WOMAN” with mystery Babylon written upon Her head and riding a Beast (Kingdom) has to be a “Church.”
Note that an unfaithful Church commits spiritual adultery/apostasy from the revealed Word of God as contained in the BIBLE..
ONLY THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US
The only way to know God is through Christ in you if He christ is any where else then He is only a figment of your own thoughts and ideas that you have got from scripture. How can all the diffrent strains we call churches be right? There is only one true Church and that is made up out of all true believes. That is where the true word or expression of God finds its home in all those who are called out of the world and are one in Christ all else is anti christ which is most of what is going on that you see with your eyes. Those who are truly born again need not defend thier king or kingdom because it is not an eathrly one and will stand forever with or with out bibles the word of God is alive it is real and it is more then ink and paper all else will pass away. Thanks God for that.
Everyone who has already been exposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ is at risk of receiving the strong delusion sent by God. Those who have heard the gospel but refuse to love the truth and forsake their unrighteous lives will receive this delusion if the Antichrist rises to power while they are still in rebellion to God’s authority over their lives. Noah warned of the judgment of a worldwide flood, and the scriptures warn of a flood of delusion sent by God himself to all who refuse to love the truth as revealed in the Holy Bible and continue to have pleasure in unrighteousness.
What is the God-Sent Strong Delusion?
2 Thessalonians 2: 1-13
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
The God-sent delusion will cause every person who had the opportunity to follow Jesus Christ before that “that Wicked” rises to power, but would not to believe the lie and to follow a false Christ.
When “that Wicked” is revealed he will come “after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.” He will come with all “deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish.” Who will perish? Those who “received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (See 2 Thess. 9,10)
This is the reason why “God shall send them strong delusion, “that they should believe a lie.”
Which lie will the people who received not the love of the truth before that Wicked is revealed believe? They will believe what that Wicked One “shows” himself to be: God. (See 2 Thess. 2:11)
What happens to those who believe that Wicked’s lie? “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thess. 2:12)
People who refuse to believe the truth of the WORD OF GOD as contained in THE BIBLE and stop having pleasure in unrighteousness (rebellion against the WORD OF GOD) will be caused to believe that Antichrist is really the true God. God himself will cause them to believe this lie and they will be damned! They will not be able to fight against this delusion. They will believe it because God will cause them to believe it. God’s judgment is this: “If you want to serve sin (REBELLION AGAINST HIS WORD) now (and therefore the Master of it), you will serve him during the tribulation as well. The doors of the ‘ark of salvation’ will be shut when that Wicked is revealed during the tribulation.
Many Christians “believe” the truth on their terms, which means they continue to have pleasure in unrighteousness. They must understand that if they believe in Jesus but still enjoy unrighteousness, their definition of believing is not the same as God’s, and they will receive his judgment to believe the lie if they do not repent and begin serving God now with single-hearted devotion. God chooses us to salvation through not only our belief of the truth, but also through sanctification of the Spirit: “because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” 2 Thess. 2:13b
ONLY THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US!!!!!!!!!!!
When all the shaking is over the only foundation that will stand is Christ in you all else is false and all will be made to see that the kingdom of God is in you He the Christ is in a people and will destroy the false with the brightness of His coming in a people the true church of God. All mens ideas and carnal ramblings about what they think scripture says will come to an end in the light of the true which is Christ in you the hope of glory all eles is a false hope and will never happen. Buildings can be shaken and what you believe will depend on what you think scripture says. But the true kingdom of God is Christ in you and no one can take that from you and that kingdom can not be moved or shaken all that is happening will reveal the real and cause the false to be seen for what it really is many are going to be suprised very soon when they see their kingdoms fall and say this can not be. I read my bible every day i knew what it said better then any one. Yeah but you never knew Him the author of the book. You only read the book to be right or so you thought.
I give no glory to The Shack for the good things that have come of it. I give no Glory to the author. I give glory to God, the creator of ALL things, for the good that He has done through it. And I will openly chastise anyone who gives credit to the enemy through the justification that The Shack is not based on the Bible.
This is the same stance that I have on the Bible. I do not believe that the Bible is the Logos Word spoken of by John, and I do not believe that it is complete. Logos is the breathed Word of my Father. Logos is as infinite and powerful as He is. Logos cannot be contained by two leather covers.
Timothy said “All scripture is God breathed and profitable for doctrine, etc.” So what does “All scripture” mean to you? Hmm? All? Scripture? Are you going to take it in the limited context of today, when the only commonplace and approved “scripture” is the Bible? Approved by who?!?! God? How do you know that? Because the Bible says so? Because a preacher told you? Because that’s what you were raised from a baby believer to believe by a “church” who’s goal is to control the outpouring of God’s works? Was the author talking about the Bible when he wrote that letter? To assume that would be absurd.
Here is the Truth. Churches fill our minds with the poison that the Bible, a physical BOOK that will be burned up with the rest of the stuff that doesn’t matter, is God’s Logos Word (because God said it, in the Bible, of course) because a genuine outpouring of God’s Holy spirit on willing believers is not PROFITABLE TO MEN WHO HUNGER FOR POWER. It never has been. Because it can’t be controlled. The religious leaders of Jesus’ day knew it, the Romans knew it, the Catholics knew it, and modern church leaders know it. God doesn’t need a program. He doesn’t need a spreadsheet. He doesn’t need a flow chart and He doesn’t need our opinion.
Seriously. The translations of the Bible that are read and taken as Logos are skewed. Do you really trust a man’s interpretation enough to place your soul in his hands?? If you insist on studying and quoting the Bible throw your King James out the window. Go get an interlinear. That’s Hebrew and Greek. Get a concordance and STUDY the WORDS. Read their interpretations. Pay particular attention to the red ones. You’ll be surprised at what they are really saying. Or heartbroken. Don’t shape the words to fit what you already believe, don’t let the theory shape your logic. Let the words and their meanings shape you. SEEK OUT the truth. Don’t just eat what someone else feeds you. God wants, longs, LOVES His children to be lovers of the Truth … because He IS Truth. Seeking the Truth is seeking the face of the Father. And He desires with all His heart for us to see past the lies we have been told since Christ ascended to heaven.
The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
…
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
And THAT is the conclusion of the whole matter.
Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My Words will by no means pass away”.
I believe that with all my heart.
I recently spent time in a cancer ward where I was given a copy of The Shack to read. I read it in the same vein I had, the Pilgrims Progress and more recently Oscar Wilde’s Selfish Giant and The Young Prince to my 6 yr old grand-daughter. Non scriptural, but treasures of the heart for both young and old to explore. I was in a bed next to a 33 year old Jehovahs Witness woman with cervical cancer. Without a blood transfusion she had been told she was unable to go through the cancer treatment programme and was given less than 3 months to live. This created the most horrific dilemma for her and her young family who were all JW’s. She told me on the day she had to make her decision she had looked into her 3 year old daughters eyes and KNEW she had to go against everything she had ever known, been taught and believed in and have the transfusion. She couldn’t tell anyone in her family about her decision as they all assumed she would accept her fate. The day following her cancer surgery her mother came and sat beside her critically ill daughter in the bed next to mine, both distraught regarding the decision the daughter had made. The mother sobbing her heart out, asked WHY she had accepted the blood transfusion when she was so close to being with Jehovah. The young mum tried to explain that she had seen something in her daughter’s eyes that confirmed to her that she was to make the decision she had and though she would regret it for the rest of her life and eternity, for her that momentry decision was the right one to make. The tears and grieving that followed for many days were painful and I prayed and interceded for her. A few nights later I went and sat beside her and held her hand till she finally stopped sobbing and fell asleep, neither of us saying a word. The following morning she thanked me and apologised profusely for disturbing me but told me she had slept peacefully all night for the 1st time in almost 3 months. I told her I couldn’t help but overhear her conversation with her mum a few days earlier and I wanted to assure her she had made the right decision. We spent many hours discussing her lifetime of being a JW and how she had never questioned those teachings and beliefs until she was faced with death. I also shared my testimony with her. A few days later I returned to our room to find her deeply engrossed in The Shack which she had picked up from the pile of books next to my bed. When she reached the part about meeting God, the woman, she said to me “what an amazing analogy – because she had just seen for the first time that every religion limits God within the confines of their own thinking” – she had never thought about that before – we prayed together many times before I went home and I left her with the book as I felt comfortable with the fact God was revealing Himself to her and that He would continue to use whatever He could to fill that void with Himself that had once been filled with JW beliefs. To God be the glory, forever and ever!
The Truth of the Word of God is not difficult to understand by those who are surrendered to the Will of God and are NOT insistent on inventing and following the Gods of their own imagination.
The story of Cain and Abel provides a significant warning to those who insist on inventing their own God(s) and doing things their way rather than HIS. When God said what He wanted of HIS people Abel submitted to the revealed Will of God and gave him a “meat” sacrifice. Cain, however, decided that he knew better than God and gave him a fruit platter instead. This is like the false teachers and prohets of today who have decided they know better than GOD HIMSELF just what he requires.
The Delusion which God has sent to those who do not love the truth as recvealed to us in HIS WORD the BIBLE is to test FAITHFULNESS to HIS revealed WORD above ALL else. This test started in the Garden of Eden and will continue on until the Judgement DAY. TURN TO THE JESUS CHRIST OF THE BIBLE WHILE THERE IS STILL TIME. Any other Christ is a false Christ for which we will have no excuse whatsoever if we are deluded into following.
2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. (NAS)
2 Timothy 4:1-5 I solemnly charge you…preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. (NAS)
THE JESUS CHRIST OF THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY WAY THE GOD OF THE BIBLE HAS PROVIDED FOR US TO BE SAVED AND IS AVAILABLE TO ALL WHO WILL HUMBLY TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS AND RECEIVE HIM
1 Samuel 15:23 (NAS) “For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry…”
Witchcraft: Wanting to be a spiritual “mover and shaker” without submitting to God. Witchcraft is rebellion coupled with a desire to “stay in the game”, to be a spiritual player.
The ONLY way to truly KNOW CHRIST is through HIS WORD.
Only the biblical Jesus Christ is able to say, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” – Jn 14:6
False Christ’s on the other hand lead to the false salvation being “marketed” in many apostate churches today.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Without the TRUTH of the Word of God we have NO way of knowing whether the Christ we claim to know is the Jesus Christ of the BIBLE or one of the MANY false Christ’s the BIBLE warns us about repeatedly.
When we know the scriptures, and understand them through the power of God’s Holy Spirit, we won’t be deceived about the salvational points of His Word.
Tinaw.
What a marvellous story! I would say that you yourself was what the young woman read. The earthly book was incidentally used of the Lord, of course. Jesus said in John 20’21: “As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And how was that? As the Word become flesh!
The intention of God is that His Ekklesia be just that: as Christ become flesh. I’ve never heard this included in any preaching of “the great commision”.
Lesley.
Thanks for those scriptures. They are so critical and really foundational understanding. They should be at the heart of all preaching, especially Jn.8’31031.
How many times is it misrepresented by the first parts of it being left out! How can anyone know the Truth without believing in Him or without living in HIS word or being His disciples – as He says?
In my understanding these words, and others of the exclusive statements of the Lord’s carry a powerful truth. That is that believers are to abide in His words and nobody else’s. He, and He alone, gives us the context for understanding and living in the New Covenant.
Because His words are exclusive we should consider Old Covenant words carefully so that we don’t find ourselves dwelling on and trying to live by the words of Moses, Elijah, Malachi etc instead of Christ’s.
Thanks for contributing this verse.
In saying that books such as The Shack should be rejected completely by Bible believing christians it is interesting to look at the nature of the Gospel and spiritual power.
All supernatural power comes, ultimately, from either God or Satan. God gives power to those who believe the truth. To approach God, truth is the cost of entry.
Satan, however, whose nature is deception gives power to those who believe a lie. Believing the lie is the cost of entry to access Satan’s power. Witchcraft bolsters up the lie with: mystery, pseudo-science, ancient knowledge, new knowledge, etc…. The more absurd the lie, the better. The lie acts as a distracter.
If we mix certain ingredients in a drink… If we eat a special herb… If we arrange candles in a certain configuration… If we stare into a crystal ball… If we turn over Tarot cards… If we “read” the stars… If we speak a certain phrase, or mantra… If we have secret knowledge… If we draw certain symbols… then spiritual forces will come into play.
James 3:15 (NIV) Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil.
Witchcraft starts with a heart of rebellion and works by focusing on a distracter, a lie, which is some technique purported to release power. It is important to have “faith”, to trust in the technique and not God. Believing in lies is an “acceptable sacrifice” to Satan, the father of lies, who honors his children with real power. The irony is, that due to the inherent deceptive basis of witchcraft, the practitioners of it often think they are serving God, while accessing a power from below (earth)–not from above.
I am defining witchcraft as a desire to be a spiritual free agent without submission to God or regard for His word THE BIBLE.
1 Samuel 15:23 (NIV) “For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you…”
Psalms 107:11 (NIV) For they had rebelled against the words of God and despised the counsel of the Most High.
Nehemiah 9:26 (NIV) “But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they put your law behind their backs. They killed your prophets, who had admonished them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies.”
Does Witchcraft Work?
Even though Satan is usually the furthest thing from the mind, the “father of lies” honors the self-delusion inherent in witchcraft by occasionally releasing power, even doing supernatural miracles for those who have rebelled against God and yet still want to be spiritually effective. By this means, real power can be exerted to achieve health, beauty, enchantment, supernatural sensitivity, “insight” through drugs and experiences, oracles and visions, and the like. In this sense, witchcraft works.
Exodus 7:22 (NIV) But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.
Exodus 8:7 (NIV) But the magicians [Jannes and Jambres] did the same things by their secret arts; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt.
Witchcraft, characterized by belief in “knowledge from below”, and rejection of “knowledge from above,” in it’s more advanced and powerful stages, is a delusional belief in what is clearly not of God.
Satan’s tacit “deal” is: if you sacrifice truth on his altar, he will give you power for what you want now. But lies are flimsy things to put your trust in…
Exodus 8:18 (NIV) But when the magicians tried to produce gnats by their secret arts, they could not. And the gnats were on men and animals.
Isaiah 47:12 (NIV) “Keep on, then, with your magic spells and with your many sorceries, which you have labored at since childhood. Perhaps you will succeed, perhaps you will cause terror.”
Witchcraft In The Church
Deuteronomy 18:14 (NAS) “For those nations, which you will dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so.”
Acts 8:9-11 (NIV) Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, “This man is the divine power known as the Great Power.” They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic.
Jeremiah 5:23 (NIV) But these people have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away.
It is sobering to see how similar modern witchcraft (Wicca, or “white witchcraft”) is to modern Christianity. Self-aware witches bless as well as curse, ‘bind and loose’, prophesy, pray, lay hands on, anoint with oil, engage in an activity similar to many modern day “deliverance” ministries.
Some even consider themselves Christians with superior knowledge, understanding and power.
A few even worship Jesus–along with a pantheon of other gods and goddesses.
This should not surprise us, it was the same in Jesus’ day; nor should it poison our desire to practice real spiritual gifts.
Given the similarity, how does one tell the difference?
More importantly, are we dabbling with witchcraft?
Isaiah 30:9 (NIV) These are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to listen to the Lord’s instruction.
2 Timothy 3:6-8 (RSV) For among them are those who make their way into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and swayed by various impulses, who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth. As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith.
Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (NIV) Let no one be found among you… who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or cast spells, or who is a medium or spiritist.
Faithfulness to the WORD OF GOD alone is what HE is seeking from those who are truly HIS.
I don’t believe that Paul Young wrote it with the intent of creating some kind of false “universalism” gospel. Nobody can foresee their work hitting the best-seller list, I think he wrote it as a story, as a way of illustrating a personal experience that he had at one point in his life. The problem lies in the churches (and their leadership) that end up building their church around that story—thus turning it into a gospel independent of the author.
I question Mr.—er rather, Dr. DeYoung’s credibility, simply because he seems to be rather obscure. I haven’t heard his name once in any circles that I’ve been involved with nor does much turn up through a web search, so for him to say that Young authored a paper in college acknowledging universalism doesn’t hold much weight, in my opinion. I know his credentials, but has his account of Paul Young authoring that paper been verified by another source?
I’m not advocating The Shack, I haven’t read it myself and I don’t really intend to, but I know some people who have and for those that were already rooted firmly in the faith it seems to have bolstered it all the more.
IT is impossible for me to believe that something as false and dodgy as The Shack can be beneficial to anybody in a Christian perspective.
2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. (NAS)
2 Timothy 4:1-5 I solemnly charge you…preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. (NAS)
David Larsen wrote:
“When all the shaking is over the only foundation that will stand is Christ in you all else is false and all will be made to see that the kingdom of God is in you He the Christ is in a people and will destroy the false with the brightness of His coming in a people the true church of God.”
Yes, because the Holy Spirit of God lives (dwells) in our mortal bodies if we are born again by the Holy Spirit. That is our “down payment” from God of things to come. The Holy Spirit actually dwelling inside of our bodies, which is now if we are born again.
Then, when He returns to “gather us”, as Paul spoke about in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1, at that time, our corruptable bodies will actually be “changed” fully into our incorruptable bodies, at the Lord’s coming back to earth.
We shall be “raised up” as Christ was also “raised from the dead”
“And if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, then He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you.” (Romans 8:11 -Amplified Bible)
Praise God! Our mortal (corruptable) bodies will be changed icompletely into our spiritual (incorruptable) bodies and we shall be forever with the Lord
“For this perishable [part of us] must put on the imperishable [nature], and this mortal [part of us, this nature that is capable of dying] must put on immortality (freedom from death).” (1st Corinthians 15:53 Amplified Bible)
And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
- Jesus Christ
(John 17:3)
Ruth,
I am sorry to hear about the things you went through. But please remember that their are hypocrites in every group. For me I am thankful that the holiness churches still hold to a righteous standard.
Moll,
The next scripture after John 3:17 where it says that Jesus didn’t come into the world to condemn the world says that they where already condemned. Jesus didn’t need to condemn because the Word of God already condemned them. It is not the bible thumpers as some have called those who love the Bible that condemn it is the Word of God that condemns. It I quote a scripture in context and it condemns someone it is God condemning and not me.
Well said tenderwarrior
As ever we need to be constantly testing ourselves against the Word of God to ensure that we are being faithful to HIS Word:
2 Timothy 4:2-5 For the time will (HAS) come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. (NAS)
ONLY THE JESUS CHRIST OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US!
OUR VAIN IMAGINATIONS WILL BE WORTHLESS ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY!!!!
I read the Shack after purchasing it at a discount store not knowing anything about it, but thought it looked interesting. To me, it was simply a fiction book, and I loved it. I was raised in a very strict home with a brutal, mean mentally and physically abusive father and was forced to attend a very strict frightening church 4- times a week. Due to my upbringing and the church I attended I was terrified of God my entire life and had no concept that love was in any way associated with God. Being raised this way makes a person feel very suicidal and hopeless. Finally in the past couple years, I have come to understand that we are not to be afraid of God in the wrong sense of fear and that he acutally loves us. I have a long way to go and more healing required, but this book, ‘The Shack’ had me weeping with joy that God actually loves me and now I have hope and I am clinging to that hope. That is what I got out of the book, no theology, just hope, maybe because I wasn’t looking for theology or a thought to trash the book. I just wanted a pleasant read.
The first time I read the book, it hit me hard emotionally. Here was, for the first time, a presentation of a non-religious Trinity. I looked through the theological presentations, and found solid scriptural teachings behind what they were teaching. I did not get the impression that they were teaching universalism – those that seemed bent on rejecting God were allowed to do so.
At the advice of a brother I ended up throwing the book out, so I can not go back and read my notes, but I do clearly recall thinking there was no heresy there. Might have I missed something? Perhaps. I wish I still had the book so I could review it again.
God has chosen to reveal Himself first of all in Scripture and finally, in the last days, in His Son. If this book contradicts the clear teaching of the Word, or in any way diminishes the Person of Jesus Christ or his work on the cross, of course it is heresy. I just don’t recall it doing that.
Thank you for your testimony Pamela, I think that holds true for many that have read The Shack. They come out of it, not with a skewed theology but simply with a refreshed perception of Jesus.
Playing with the Gospel of Jesus Christ as is occurring throughout the church on many levels today is exactly the same as the temptation Satan put to Eve in the Garden of Eden.
Genesis 3
Man’s Disobedience
[1] Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, [1] hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
[5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant [2] to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
[7] And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons
By challenging and distorting the Word of God Satan tempted the woman into believing the LIE that was attractive to her. THis temptation is being repeated throughout history and The Shack provides just another example of the deliberate distorting of the Word of God by the enemy of our souls.
Paul repeatedly warned the christians of the false teachings of the false teachers and false prophets who were presenting themselves as more spiritual than him.
Playing with fire by exposing yourself to false teaching even when it is presented as fiction will have the same result as it did with Adam and Eve and with the muyltitude of professing christians who are being deluded into following false christs’ all over the world today.
ONLY THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US!!!!!
JUDGEMENT IS COMING TO THOSE WHO ALLOW THEMSELVES TO BE DECEIVED BY MYTHS AND FABLES!
The SHACK contradicts everything the Bible tells us about God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and as such is just another potential delusion.
Any compromise whatsoever with the Word of God is a hybrid religious invention by mankind leading to spritual death in hell.
This is why ALL material such as The Shack should be discarded by BIBLE believing christians.
Yesterday, the Lord taught me something through a mistake I made, that He will sometimes use a raven (unclean meat) to deliver a morsel of perfectly good bread. It doesn’t mean we should swallow the whole raven, like I did yesterday, but that we can accept the bread it has brought with thanksgiving to the Lord. This is only one book among millions and probably billions, I don’t think we need to be in alarm or afraid, when clearly the Lord shows Himself to be God even in one little faulty (if it is, I haven’t read it myself) book that He apparently has used to deliver a morsel of bread to some who needed it. Maybe the question we should be asking ourselves in this bible-soaked land, with a church on every corner, is why the Lord has to resort to using ravens?
It’s pretty obvious when a religious spirit has overtaken an individual or an organization…. the law and fear control and the conviction of the HS is quenched. If history is our teacher and if history repeats itself… then I think we can guess where religious dogma has taken us. We are no better or different than those who claimed Jehovah for themselves and found themselves wanting. Our churches may have a Jesus component but miss the heart of God. If the Shack offends you; it may be time to discover the real Logos.
De Young said:
…Undergirding “The Shack,” De Young told WND in an interview, is an age-old heresy – universal reconciliation – that diminishes the work of Jesus on the cross and the holiness and justice of God by asserting that everyone eventually will be saved from eternal damnation….
Christian Universalists might say:
That the defenders of the traditional “eternal torment in hell” doctrine are afraid that if you diminish the punishment for sin, you diminish Christ’s sacrifice. The Universalists feel that if you increase the number of souls ransomed (all) you greatly increase the value of that ransom.
The “truth police” of today are of the same mindset that many of the Jewish religion were when Jesus made his appearance. Well studied and yet their “rightness” blinded them to the point of not only not recognizing Jesus, but had him put to death… though they were the majority that Jesus found himself among, they had much lacking with their understanding…
These links have some good and some poorly written material, but worthy of your taking a look and asking the Father if there is something for you in any of it…
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html
I will say along with William Barclay
“I AM A CONVINCED UNIVERSALIST”
mhz wrote:
“If the Shack offends you; it may be time to discover the real Logos”
mhz,
Who, in your words, is “the real logos”?
There is only ONE “real logos”: Jesus Christ, the WORD made flesh.
EVERYTHING ELSE is a SUBSTITUTE for the true.
This book falls into this category.
I will not settle for a little piece of poisonous bread and call it a truth. I will not chew the meat and spit out bones. I will not keep the bay and throw out the bathwater as those saying are LIES.
People are settling for anything more and more and it is sickeninggg!!!!
Just like this book, called the shack or anything else that is mixed. This book is a lie, whether made up or not. he had these thoughts and he shared and wrote them with the many and it has spread like poison amongst many people. Its leaven plain and simple. I have the word of God which is ALL truth and His word cannot lie nor does it. People desire to fit Jesus into their lifestyle and what they think by the natural, selfish mind.
It is as gull, poison to believe this type of book could even be compared to the Jesus Christ whom I serve. It is pure rubbish, garbage, poison to those whom believe or compare the shack to Jesus and or His word. You eat that and chew on that, and than swallow, its nothing but poison.
Their is enough demon doctrines and traditions of men running rampant and it is truly getting WORSE.
Time is short and those whom are luke warm, choose this day whom you shall serve. their is no middle ground. to the right or to the left. Take your stand. Serve God with all of thy heart, soul and mind, or dont serve him at all. If you dont serve Jesus here what makes you think you will serve Him there?
Gods word is pure, holy and undefiled….People are trampling the word of God and making it into what they believe. Adding too and taking away from.
Their truly is a famine in the land for the hearing of Gods truth and people are running to and fro seeking anything to fill their bellies with.
Wayne, Praise God, right on to everything you spoke.
Because the true people of God speak up for truth, some of you say, well its condemnation, some of you believe its religious spirits. So that your conscience will accept and believe the lie of the enemy and the seeds he is planting instead of Gods seed, Gods word.
Amos 8:
1“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord GOD,
“When I will send a famine on the land,
Not a famine for bread or a thirst for water,
But rather for hearing the words of the LORD.
12“People will stagger from sea to sea
And from the north even to the east;
They will go to and fro to seek the word of the LORD,
But they will not find it.
Heidi, I capitalized Logos because Jesus is the living word and the Bread of Life. The Shack is no more than one man’s image of the God head, and certainly isn’t anything more… but neither is a collection of writings canonized by those who feared men like Origen and other Church fathers. It was the Church that wanted to make sure freedom didn’t reign unchecked. The Bible has replaced what God intended to be written on our hearts. The Living Word is Jesus and he is the author and finisher of our faith, the one true way to God the Father. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom and regeneration… not fear or religion. “ You’ll know them by their fruits” not their dogmas and ordinances. The Shack is a threat to that control and scares people as you see written here. To many the Bible (which I respect highly but dont’ idolize) is just another golden calf created to replace our obligation to love our neighbor and God the Father. We found the enemy and the enemy was us. Thanks Paul for hitting us where it hurts.
Sheepkinz says:
…Just like this book, called the shack or anything else that is mixed. This book is a lie, whether made up or not. he had these thoughts and he shared and wrote them with the many and it has spread like poison amongst many people. Its leaven plain and simple.
I have the word of God which is ALL truth and His word cannot lie nor does it….
I love the word ALL, here is how Jesus and Paul used the word….
. Jesus said: “I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself” (John 12:32).
Paul writes to the Romans: “God has consigned ALL men to disobedience that he may have mercy on ALL” (Rom. 11:32).
He writes to the Corinthians: “As in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22);
and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28).
In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God “who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,” and of Christ Jesus “who gave himself as a ransom for ALL” (1 Tim 2:4-6).
The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word ALL. Love never fails and it will not fail in the case of fallen men…
I am not interested in tit for tat, but there are other interpretations that may be worth taking a look at… some of your brothers read it differently than you, can you not give them a bit of consideration, that they might also have a piece to the great mystery when it comes to the love of God found in the great price that Jesus paid?
Mat 15:11 “What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’ ”
Why? What comes out of his mouth is just what was already in his heart to begin with. He will not be any more unclean than he already was even if he does eat what is unclean – which I’m even sorry it needs to be said, I am not advocating, because Elijah, even though he was hungry, maybe even nearly starving, didn’t grab the raven and cook it, he only took the bread that the LORD OUR GOD CAUSED IT TO BRING. Our great and marvellous God thus shows His eminent sovereignty and superiority over all that is evil, and unclean and disgusting! Why can’t we just give Him glory for that?
It doesn’t matter what one says, there will always be dissent and division and misunderstanding. It makes me want to never say another word the rest of my life. I can hardly believe my ears that somewhere here there is argument about what it is that Jesus came to save us from?! Can’t we just rejoice together that He came to save us? Oh Lord, what I would give to lay down all my doctrine and self-righteousness and everything I think I know just to have the whole, real living Jesus, alive and on His throne, living in and through me,and not just the bits and pieces of Him that I have dissected and analyzed to death!! I fall short of Him yet, but thanks to someone’s testimony on this forum I believe I can trust Him now, trust in His kindness, to show me my sin, to help me face it for real without fear, so that I can gain the LIVING, RISEN SAVIOUR WHO IS A PERSON, NOT A DOCTRINE, SO MUCH SO THAT HE HAS A NAME.
If I appear to be serious it because I am serious. Over the past few days and 2 dreams that were given to me yesterday in one dream…. I feel such seriousness of the Lord, it is within my belly..
Much, much polluted doctrines, tainted, much false teachings.
I will not go into all of it, this is why I feel the seriousness of such. May we never take lightly what the word of God says to all who will hear.
I saw a cage with an animal in it yesterday, I could not tell what it was as other dogs and animals were in cages, pet doctrines of all sorts.
I knew I was to take it out and wash this little animal with pure clean running water. As the water ran freely over the animal before me was the face of a lamb. The body was black and white as a dalmation. Gods word is in black and white. He is the head of His Body, Christ, When I looked at the lambs face it was Jesus. when I looked at the body it was the pure word of God…. We are the Lords body and His truth is in us.
I felt I was to let it down to run freely and it ran in between lots of dogs fighting and tugging with one another, but they were not playing. They paid no heed to the lamb running freely and swiftly.
Those with ears to hear and eyes to see will know the truth. The pure in heart and the listeners will know the truth….
Those whose hearts are truly hungering for His truth will see the truth and know it is the Lord, His truth, His word!!!
Revelation22
12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
He sends forth His command to the earth; His word runs very swiftly.
Psalms 147:15
Correction, the cages with the animals in them were purposely being drowned in this uglish yellow color… in an ugly yellowish fluid/gall,….the animal, the lamb of God was so covered I could not tell what it was…..
tell the pure cleaning running water ran over the lamb.
He was precious to behold and it should be to all of us
I agree with you on the seriousness Sheepkinz, I had a vision that made me ill, and it stayed with me a few days, I didn’t even understand what it was and barely had words to describe it until the Lord showed me that I was seeing Isaiah. 21, and the urgency of it was unbelievable. The thing is people are perishing and we sit around haggling and splitting hairs over doctrines and the evil in the church, when what is needed is the reality of Jesus Christ being manifested in His people. It’s even more serious than we think, those warnings are for all of us, not just the ones with wrong doctrine or still yoked with harlot churches. There are plenty of folks around here with sound doctrine but somehow still missing His REALITY, and I include myself – we see it all the time don’t we, pride, self-righteousness, lack of love, denying the power, exhalting self, but you know, the doctrine is kosher. Something is still lacking!
” I felt I was to let it down to run freely and it ran in between lots of dogs fighting and tugging with one another, but they were not playing. They paid no heed to the lamb running freely and swiftly. ”
Isn’t that the truth?
Yes it is very serious, I totally agree.
While people speak sound doctrine, its the 5 percent of lies that can kill you. People get the love of God and being nice mixed up. Repentance is no longer a popular sermon in the buildings and pulpits. Being born again is just a dip in the water to some, with no spiritual meaning to them and speaking in tongues is mocked. Dreams and visions are just lies some will say or make very wrong comments against the very thing the Lord is trying to bring froth. especially when it definitely is from the Lord AND The word of God is taken lightly.
Today people still continue on sugar coating , patting the apostate and fallen away on the back and saying good job is love. Your doing great, no warnings spoken of, no heed. Hell is enlarging its mouth daily, that is a fearful thing and this is what the Lord spoke forth not to long ago.
To speak in the Spirit of the Lord, in love but with His soberness, and seriousness. If the Holy Spirit in me is serious as in others , than you most assuredly feel the seriousness of that. It makes no matter what people say or come against you with. Eyes and ears on the Lord, and to hear His heart and what matters is what is the Lord saying and speaking. Why because He loves, because He is the truth, the way and the Life.
This is what the apostate churches and fallen away are doing and have been, embracing what they are doing, giving out hugs and patting one another on the back with fluff and stuff, all the while going deeper and deeper into utter spiritual blindness and darkness.
I am not going to hug and kiss people into hell and tell them that they are okay where they are at if the Lord reveals otherwise. That is not the true love of God.
I am reminded of Ezekiel, speak forth whether they hear or forebear….Isnt this the day and the hour with which we truly are living in and witnessing before our very eyes?
..actually, I need to correct myself, the doctrine may not be entirely kosher around here, but don’t despair there’s still hope.. The thing is when someone drops by and shows me Jesus and doesn’t just talk about Him like the rest of us do all the time, then I can’t help but be inclined to bend my ear to what he says. When I see Jesus it tends to lend some credibility..especially when I was mysteriously allowed on the forum just long enough to read his testimony and posts before being blocked again!
sorry , correction there are a some who truly are preaching forth the truth of Gods word and I truly thank God for them!
sheepkinz, my post was not in response to yours in case of misunderstanding..our posts crossed, I was just adding to my earlier thoughts, and they were not addressed to anyone in particular. :)
No worries :)
mhz wrote:
“The Bible has replaced what God intended to be written on our hearts.”
No, the Bible (Holy God breathed scripture) confirms what is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit. This is what scripture calls “the spirit AND truth”- The “spirit” being the Holy Spirit and the “truth” being the Word of scripture. Because the WORD is living and active. Each confirms the other.
You wrote:
“Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom and regeneration… not fear or religion.”
As scripture says “Perfect love casts out all fear” (1st John 4:18)
There is no fear when the Spirit is allowed to move freely. Again, scripture confirms what the Holy Spirit speaks.Perfect unity.
You wrote:
“The Shack is a threat to that control and scares people as you see written here. To many the Bible (which I respect highly but dont’ idolize) is just another golden calf”
The Shack isn’t any threat. It is a flimsy, fake substitute for the REAL TRUTH which is the all about the TRUE and LIVING GOD, whom scripture and the Holy Spirit bears witness to.
The Holy Spirit doesn’t bear witness to the FAKE. The Holy Spirit ONLY bears witness to the true. The TRUE is Christ and scripture, which is the WORD made flesh.
FAKE can’t genuinely heal. The TRUTH can genuinely heal.
To love God’s word is to actually God Himself who IS the word.
“thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee”(Psalm 119:11)
The word is a LAMP for our feet and shows us HOW to walk righteously.
The only time scripture doesn’t produce fruit is when it is wrongly handled and used by the unregenerated individual (not born again of the Spirit) who knows neither the word, nor the author of the word.
That’s called the “dead letter of the law”. But just because scripture is handled and misused incorrectly, does not nullify it’s power.
“
sheepkinz wrote:
“While people speak sound doctrine, its the 5 percent of lies that can kill you.”
Yes. And the Shack is a man made book that mixes in a little bit of truth (from the bible) with a LOT of fiction.
Why not go to the source of ALL truth: Jesus Christ and His word and let HIM heal you instead of settling for a lousy piece of fiction as a substitute?
Is it because we only want a PART of God (the kind, empathetic part) rather than embracing ALL of God in His HOLINESS and AWESOME POWER that requires that we give up something of ourselves? That we actually have to deny ourselves?
Yes, it just seems we want only the “part” of God that is “comfortable and pleasing”to us.
That is WHY we settle for a substitute rather than the totality of a real and righteous and Holy God.
We like our cheap substitutes and our idols BETTER because they make us feel all warm and fuzzy and don’t require anything of us.
To desire to walk in holiness and righteousness that a Holy God requires, “costs” us something.
Most don’t want to pay that price. So they settle for the substitute.
Yes, I agree Heidi, even though I have seen tremendous amounts of God’s merciful grace on people, situations at times, the grace coming when they have been acting in ignorance…but sometimes even when they have not been acting in ignorance…bottom line what you have said above is totally true. Only by the true regeneration, sanctification upon a person by the grace of God and a pliable heart, will those blindfolds be taken off that will enable Christians to see the truth of what you have spoken here. God bless. Lesley.
I appreciate your obvious love and devotion to God but I think you are confusing Logos with audible or written words. In the beginning was the Logos (Word-Jesus); it doesn’t mean that in the beginning was the Bible. It’s also clear the Word was God and the Word (Spirit) was made flesh (Jesus). It does not mean the Bible became Jesus. Genuine repentance and confession will lead any man to the Truth without a teacher or a Bible. We need not any man to teach us save the HS who will teach you all things. This is why no man is with excuse for not finding God. I think many here are proving the point that we have elevated our Bible to be equal to God. If that is the case are all bibles accurate; and if none are perfectly accurate can any be equal to God? Especially when we don’t have one page of the original manuscripts.
mhz wrote:
“I think many here are proving the point that we have elevated our Bible to be equal to God.”
But that’s not what is being discussed here. What is being discussed is whether the fictionary book “The Shack” is an accurate representation of the REAL authentic, living, holy, righteous God or not.
And how, people are settling/buying into a flimsy substitutionary “picture” of God when they can actually have and experience the REAL God in their life by actually going TO the REAL Living, Holy, Righteous God Himself, who is written about and described about in great detail, in scripture known as the Holy Bible.
Why settle for a substitute (The Shack) that doesn’t present the true, accurate/authentic “picture” of God, when you can have the REAL story (the Bible) that tells you all about the true and living God, what pleases Him, how He thinks and what is on His heart?
By challenging and distorting the Word of God Satan tempted the woman into believing the LIE that was attractive to her. This temptation is being repeated throughout history and The Shack provides just another example of the deliberate distorting of the Word of God by the enemy of our souls.
Paul repeatedly warned the christians of the false teachings of the false teachers and false prophets who were presenting themselves as more spiritual than him.
Playing with fire by exposing yourself to false teaching even when it is presented as fiction will have the same result as it did with Adam and Eve and with the muyltitude of professing christians who are being deluded into following false christs’ all over the world today.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
A sincere study into the basis for accepting the authority of the scriptures as handed down to us wil give us NO excuse whatsoever for any departure from the revealed Word of God.
ONLY THE JESUS CHRIST OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US.
ALL DISCERNMENT AS TO WHO THE TRUE CHRIST MUST ALSO BE BIBLE BASED!!!
The delusion God has sent is to test faithfulness to HIS WORD. Our answer to the question about what we did with HIS WORD will determine our eternal destiny. The Bible depicts numerous scenarios to support this warning for those who will receive it – Adam and Eve in the Garden, Cain and Abel, Noah, The Israelites to name but a few.
If it is NOT biblical it is NOT GOD nor is it OF GOD!!!!!
The only way to be sure we are following the Jesus Christ provided for us by God is to follow the ONE we learn about in the bible – NOT the one we imagine NOR the one someone else imagines.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
ALL ELSE IS FOLLY!!!!!
1 Samuel 15:23 (NAS) “For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry…”
Witchcraft: Wanting to be a spiritual “mover and shaker” without submitting to God. Witchcraft is rebellion coupled with a desire to “stay in the game”, to be a spiritual player.
The ONLY way to truly KNOW CHRIST is through HIS WORD.
Only the biblical Jesus Christ is able to say, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” – Jn 14:6
False Christ’s on the other hand lead to the false salvation being “marketed” in many apostate churches today.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Without the TRUTH of the Word of God we have NO way of knowing whether the Christ we claim to know is the Jesus Christ of the BIBLE or one of the MANY false Christ’s the BIBLE warns us about repeatedly.
When we know the scriptures, and understand them through the power of God’s Holy Spirit, we won’t be deceived about the salvational points of His Word.
Amen and amen Wayne.
“Without the TRUTH of the Word of God we have NO way of knowing whether the Christ we claim to know is the Jesus Christ of the BIBLE or one of the MANY false Christ’s the BIBLE warns us about repeatedly.
When we know the scriptures, and understand them through the power of God’s Holy Spirit, we won’t be deceived about the salvational points of His Word.”
Wayne, would you please explain then how I was kept and shepherded out of the false church by Jesus Himself, when I didn’t even understand why or what was going on?
1Pe 1:5 “Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”
Not picking on you brother, but ALL of us here are still missing something – I hear a lot of people talking bible, and probably even talking correctly in the main, but I see very little of anyone showing me Jesus Christ, demonstrating Him, His spirit, His nature, His love, I don’t see Him here, I only see knowledge about Him – we here are still wanting, and I fully include myself in that statement. The scriptures only tesify ABOUT Him, they are not He Himself. We are only saved by Jesus Christ Himself. We talk about Him, but we are not yet DEMONSTRATING Him to the world.
Jesus spoke to His own people (that’s us!):
“You diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify ABOUT me, yet you refuse to COME TO ME to have life.” John 5:39-40
He said if we are thirsty we can come to HIM to drink, but have we realized yet how parched and thirsty we are? Do we yet even know our need?
Heidi, I don’t pretend to think that the Shack could ever replace the Bible. But your example of the Bible equaling Jesus is also absurd and the basis for manipulation in most Christian pulpits around the world. If we can keep the masses believing that our bible is perfect, inerrant, and equal to Jesus then any preacher can pick and choose his passages to control his congregation, accordingly. History has proven this over and over. Wars have been fought and peoples oppressed because of how we use scripture as if it were the “Living God”. God is Love and perfect Love cast out all fear as you have so quoted. The message we want to teach is the Love of God and to what extent it will pursue every human ever created until that creature can no longer reject so great a salvation. The Shack brings that message home in a way that few books and authors have been willing to dare and books like “Burn the Shack Down” are a sad commentary of our understanding of the “Good News Gospel”. The good news is that God’s will is that none should perish; and no human can resist such a love in the fullness of time. The glory to God is the totality of his propitiation and the defeat of death and darkness. We are sealed with an inheritance from a finished work and the will of man to reject cannot overcome God’s will to redeem and atone. Give the Shack credit for sharing a message that most churches can’t embrace or won’t embrace. God help us. The attack on this little book because of the image of God that Paul Young portrays shows the intent of men to retain an angry God which has always served the selfrighteous well and has always separated the sinner from the saint. Jesus came to take away the sins of the world…. it wasn’t limited to the saints. Hebrews gives us a tremendous promise: “for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest”. Praise God; that’s the good news.
mhz wrote:
“But your example of the Bible equaling Jesus is also absurd”
When did I say/imply that?
Unless you have misunderstood, please refrain from twisting the meaning of my words.Thank you.
I hear your heart in your posts “watchful” and I just want to encourage you that I agree completely with you that we need to know Him, personally and intimately through the relationship He has brought us into with Himself, nothing else will satisfy us, no amount of striving to be holy, no amount of striving not to sin, no amount of striving not to be deceived but just resting in Him and in His finished work on the cross for us and knowing that we are accepted in the Beloved. We are accepted in the Beloved and we do not need to strive. We can rest in His presence.
When I came out of my depression experience the enemy still tried for a long while after to get me to go back into that introspective, inward looking place of trying to be right before God on the basis of my experiential “cleanness” of heart before the Lord, he got on the back of my perfectionistic tendencies and continually tried to condemn me for every thought, literally, that I had (I was continually examining my motives for everything that I did).
In frustration one day I cried out to the Lord to deliver me from this spirit of condemnation which seemed to be my constant companion. The Lord spoke to me as I cried out to Him and said the most amazing words, “I have no expectation on you”.
Wow, in a million years I would have never dreamt up those words which the Lord spoke to me, but as He spoke them the truth dawned on my spirit that He had already completely accepted me and that He didn’t expect me to change myself. I kind of sat at my desk at work in shocked silence as the truth of what He’d said sunk in, something definitely fell off me, it was like a “striving wind” was knocked out of my sails. A few years later He showed me that He would complete the good work which He’d begun in me and work in me to will and to work for His good pleasure.
I can honestly testify that the less I’ve tried the more godly I’ve become, naturally godly, as the Holy Spirit has established this in my heart. There’s still a lot about me which isn’t godly but I’m not concerned, I have the peace of God and in that place of peace I have an assurance in my heart that He will continue the good work He’s begun in me.
God bless you “watchful”, Andrew
If I misquoted you I apologize. I thought that was your implication. Is it correct to say that you do not consider the Bible equal to God?
My intentions are to show how the Church uses the Bible to say what we want it to say and call it Jesus. If that is not your position or intent I stand corrected.
The Lord is so good Andrew…what has survived of the apostle’s writings seems curiously written to reveal our hearts – religion, pride, self-righteousness, delighting in evil, because nothing is spelled out to give us the right answers – but God is so good to minister to our needs that enable us to rest in Him. I had a similar experience, a desperate cry and then the answer came in a ‘rhema’ word that flew into my heart and ministered to a deep need I didn’t even know I had – when I thought I deserved punishment for my lack – the result was a deeper rest and trust in Him….but YET!…there is still something lacking…because when I see Jesus being demonstrated, not just talked about, but His nature demonstrated, such a rare blessing, I realize I still have a need, I want that, I want Jesus to come…only He can reach out and save and touch lives, all we can do is talk about Him, yes there are the gifts of the spirit, they are good, but not enough without…JESUS!! We are still just clanging gongs around here, and boy is there a lot of clanging going on sometimes and we even start to hit each other instead of the gong! (LOL) but the Lord is good, when we get desperate enough….He will answer..
The Lord has often brought me to that place of dissatisfaction and desparation in my heart where my heart has just cried out to Him without me even being aware of it, it’s just broken out and suddenly I become aware that I’d been carrying around this burden and it’s surfaced or erupted and then the Lord has brought healing and peace.
Yes, I live in a state of longing also and I believe that is part of the process of “hungering and thirsting for righteousness”, I believe that whatever “level” the Lord brings us to there is always another one, we will always have this longing pulling us up higher, more and more into His presence, to become more and more like Him.
We will never “arrive” even the Apostle Paul said he “hadn’t yet attained” but that he “pressed on” to “know Him” that’s the whole joy of growing knowing that there is still more growth to come.
Eternity is a very long time… :-)
mhz wrote:
“If I misquoted you I apologize. I thought that was your implication. Is it correct to say that you do not consider the Bible equal to God?”
All scripture is given by inspiration OF God.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:(2 Timothy 3:16)
Heidi, here’s another example of how we teach bible and ultimately God’s image. We make these statements and the average follower just nods his head and says, ok. What scripture was Paul referring to when he wrote to Timothy? Did Paul consider his writings equal to Isaiah or the other prophets? Who canonized the Old Testament and how was it selected? Much of the Bible is accurate and a tremendous source of inspiration… just so long as we agree that in our many translations and without an original manuscript the Bible isn’t equal to God.
“What scripture was Paul referring to when he wrote to Timothy?”
“What” scripture?
ALL scripture.
2 Tim 3:16:
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God”……(King James version)
“All Scripture is breathed out by God”…….(English Standard Version)
“All Scripture is inspired by God”……..( New American Standard Version)
“Every scripture inspired of God” (American Standard Version)
etc. etc. etc.
What part of “All” and “Every” do you not get?
Just because scripture has been translated differently in different versions and in different languages, does not nullify it.
The Shack is fantasy. God breathed scripture is not.
Andrew J, I don’t know if I’m talking about the same thing as Paul in that passage of scripture or not, probably he already had what I’m referring to – what I am talking about and longing for I’m sure must be attainable for all believers in this life, it is why Jesus died – it is simply Him and His lovely nature living inside us, visible, revealed, and drawing all men to Him. I know this is attainable because on a rare blessed occasion I get to see this (Jesus) in someone..
Some might say that Jesus already dwells in us by faith, well, yes, but for some reason He isn’t manifesting yet, maybe just a little bit here and there on a really good day, but not overall, not in most of us yet – and I don’t think we can equate the gifts of the spirit with Jesus – because many exercise the gifts but Jesus says He never “knew” them. But now I want to experience what He meant by that “knowing”..fully and completely!
Chiming in late here… Yeah, I read The Shack.
Mostly I fail to see the (true) controversy. The story is fiction. I don’t believe in vampires, but I have read Ann Rice. I don’t believe in Vulcans, but I watch Star Trek. I don’t take my philosophy of life from beer commercials. And I don’t let some fiction book determine my theology.
Clearly, the Father is not some old black woman, Jesus is not my “buddy” and the Holy Spirit is not some mystical floozy. Equally clearly, the lake of fire is real and some humans will end up there forever.
People, it’s time (passed time) to grow up and stop chasing every wind of doctrine. Let stuff that doesn’t really matter just blow away with its own wind. Read the Bible and pursue God.
Heidi, I don’t think you understand; when Paul wrote his letter to Timothy it wasn’t scripture it was a letter, a note, a post card but not scripture. The gospels hadn’t even been written yet. The Catholic Church decided to call it scripture, not Paul or God.
If you are so admit that ALL means ALL how do you explain these words from Paul?
…. we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.” (1 Tim. 4:9-11)
“the restoration of ALL things, which God has spoken by the mouth of ALL His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:21)
“just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of ALL men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL men.” (Rom. 5:18)
Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. (Eph 1: 10)
We are told that ALL will bow and All will confess God as Savior and Lord in the fullness of time. If we can’t understand it from our bible then maybe God decided a modern day parable might give us a different image of Him. At least different then what we have been sharing with the world.
Watchful says:
…Some might say that Jesus already dwells in us by faith, well, yes, but for some reason He isn’t manifesting yet, maybe just a little bit here and there on a really good day, but not overall, not in most of us yet – and I don’t think we can equate the gifts of the spirit with Jesus – because many exercise the gifts but Jesus says He never “knew” them. But now I want to experience what He meant by that “knowing” …fully and completely!…
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WHAT CAN I SAY:
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YES, YES, and YES… Without making the return of the historical Jesus void I look forward to the return of Christ in his people, a hope that purifies like no other hope. The world waits to see him in his glory. “…Christ in you the hope of glory…” May the Father open our blind eyes and give us understanding (blind man me first)… The world waits for the appointed day, they long for it, even in their blindness they long for it…
There is a true rest to the people of God, a true rest.
That is when we have ceased from our own fleshly works and allowed the Spirit of the Lord to lead.
We can walk in His peace every single day, especially when we are in the will of God. He is our peace and those whose eyes are stayed on the Lord walk in His peace. Not easily moved and not easily shaken. He manifest Himself within us everyday just by allowing His peace to reign within our being and are surroundings. In the midst of storms He keeps us resting, trusting and peaceful.
When we learn to daily, totally heartfelt submit ourselves fully and wholly unto God and to be still before the Lord, also in prayer and give to reading His truth. He draws us more and more by his Spirit unto him.
That is intimacy, that is closeness, that is fellowship with the Father, Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Than will we desire more and more Of Him and to do what is truly pleasing to the Lord Jesus more and more because He draws us to Himself~
Sheepkniz…
I agree with what you have said here in this last post you made… especially agree with:
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…Than will we desire more and more Of Him and to do what is truly pleasing to the Lord Jesus more and more because He draws us to Himself~…
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I also am of the OPINION that there is a day coming (In this life, hopefully in our generation) that our understanding of this will take a very large leap forward. That said I say again I agree with what you have said.
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Apprciated your thoughts
mhz wrote:
“If we can’t understand it from our bible then maybe God decided a modern day parable might give us a different image of Him. At least different then what we have been sharing with the world.”
I’m sorry you have a hard time understanding the bible and want to worship God in your own “different” image. Then by all means,be my guest.
May you be granted exactly what you want.Good evening.
mhz your words are not falling on deaf ears, I’m with ya. It seems to some it has been given to seek the truth no matter what, and be satisfied only with the River. And it seems like some people’s seeking is quenched when tradition makes sense. I’m not going to judge them for drinking from the Spring, and they won’t be convinced to drink of the River until they are no longer satisfied with the Spring. It is a very personal work that only His Spirit can complete.
And I really think the subject needs its own thread.
Kelsey wrote: “It is a very personal work that only His Spirit can complete.”
That’s the wonder of God at work in all of us. Love never seeks it’s own way…. and never fails.
“I’m sorry you have a hard time understanding the bible and want to worship God in your own “different” image. Then by all means,be my guest.
May you be granted exactly what you want.Good evening.”
Wow, what a pompous, bigoted thing to say. That is clearly not what he meant in his post. So much of that sort of hostility being breathed in this discussion.
mhz – I think I understand what you were saying earlier. To quote a favorite pastor of mine: “the problem is when people lift up the Word higher than the one the Word lifts up” (or some variation of that). Correct me if I’m wrong…
Hi, WCJ,
As I was thinking last night about my last thoughts I shared. I was pondering on how people only desire parts of Jesus and do not want the fullness and ALL that He is. We have got to desire ALL of The Lord, and all that he wants to pour through us. To be committed to Him and staying attuned to Him and what He would desire to share with us. Just as with reading all of His word, whether we understand all of it or not. The whole bible is to be read. Picking and choosing and saying I want this of Him and I want that, but dont give me this part of you Jesus.
I mean, I thought about that and I thought, Lord that is truly pathetic and sad to even think .
I truly dont feel I even can put this into the right words, as I feel that in my heart to be honest. It goes so much deeper than that. There is so much more to it because it goes beyond just mere words. Not only hearers but doers. Same as in a marriage. Love , communication, commitment, faithfulness, trust, spending time together. Jesus loves that, He really really does.
I thought about some people from past acquaintance’s who sit around all day whining and complaining about not having this intimacy, this true relationship with the Father, Lord Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. As they shared the why not
of. It was all excuses. I know, I been there. But I realized that one day my excuses are going to run out and when i stand before Him, I will be without excuse.
It came down to taking away from what they were doing, their time, their ways. That would mean they would have to step away from the computer, shut the tv off, quit playing games, etc.
When we stop sitting around talking about what we want from Jesus and truly put into action this desire of wanting the fullness and love of Jesus and to hear from Him, do the doing of what we say we want, true relationship. Its amazing because Jesus is ever real and waiting for us to do that. So many feel that way and dont even realize the Lord placed that longing in them but they do nothing about it, except, complain. The bible says to seek His face and His face is what is the doing of, not just sitting around talking about it. Talking about it isnt satisfying to me, its the doing it that is:)
Psalm 105:4
Seek the LORD and His strength; Seek His face continually.
At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently;
Isaiah 26:9
Other people can only lead you to the Lord Jesus Christ, It is our responsibility to identify and respond to Him when we are drawn to Him by God the Father. The scriptures provide the only means by which we as mere human beings in desperate need of the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ are able to identify Him and to live a life with is pleasing to Him. The Bible warns us of the many snares set to lead us astray:
I am deeply concerned at the unbiblical, anti biblical and super biblical sentiments expressed by people obviously misrepresenting themselves as christians to the scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive and thereby influencing the extent and scale of apostasy so evident in the “christian” church today.
The subject of Babylon in the Scripture is one of the prominent themes of the Bible beginning in Genesis 10, where the city of Babel is first mentioned, with continued references throughout the Scriptures climaxing here in the book of Revelation.
From these various passages, it becomes clear that Babylon in Scripture is the name for a great system of religious error. Babylon is actually a counterfeit or pseudo religion which plagued Israel in the Old Testament as well as the church in the New Testament, and which, subsequent to apostolic days, has had a tremendous influence in moving the church from biblical simplicity to apostate confusion.
In keeping with the satanic principle of offering a poor substitute for God’s perfect plan, Babylon is the source of counterfeit religion sometimes in the form of pseudo Christianity, sometimes in the form of pagan religion. Its most confusing form, however, is found in Romanism. In the Scriptures themselves, though many of these facts are not mentioned, there are a number of allusions to the conflict of the true faith with this pseudo religion.
Ezekiel protests against the ceremony of weeping for Tammuz in Ezekiel 8:14. Jeremiah mentions the heathen practices of making cakes for the queen of heaven (Jer. 7:18) and offering incense to the queen of heaven (Jer. 44:17-19, 25). The worship of Baal, characteristic of pagan religion in Canaan, was another form of this same mystery religion originating in Babylon. Baal is considered identical to Tammuz. The doctrines of the mystery religions of Babylon seem to have permeated the ancient world, giving rise to countless mystery religions, each with its cult and individual beliefs offering a counterfeit religion and a counterfeit god in opposition to the ONE true God REVEALED IN THE SCRIPTURES.
Babylon as an evil woman is portrayed in the prophecy of Zechariah 5:1-11 where the woman of verse 7 is described as personifying wickedness in verse 8.
The Babylonian cult eventually made its way to other cities including Pergamos, the site of one of the seven churches of Asia. The chief priests of the Babylonian cult wore crowns in the form of the head of a fish, in recognition of Dagon the fish god, with the title “Keeper of the Bridge,” that is, the “bridge” between man and Satan, imprinted on the crowns. The Roman equivalent of the title, Pontifex Maximus, was used by the Caesars and later Roman emperors, and was also adopted as the title for the bishop of Rome. In the early centuries of the church in Rome, incredible confusion arose; and attempts were made to combine some of the features of the mystery religion of Babylon with the Christian faith, a confusion which has continued down to the present day.
In this chapter in Revelation, the last stage of counterfeit religion is revealed as it will be in existence in the period before the return of the Lord to earth.
It is a sad commentary on contemporary Christendom that it shows an overwhelming desire to return to Rome in spite of Rome’s evident apostasy from true biblical Christianity. In fact, modern liberalism has far outdone Rome in its departure from the theology of the early church, thus has little to lose by a return to Romanism. Apostasy, which is seen in its latent form today, will flower in its ultimate form in this future superchurch which will apparently engulf all Christendom in the period after the rapture of the church.
“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV)
In 1948 a movement was born that has become the foundation of the great apostasy that the Apostle
Paul warned us would come prior to the return of our Lord. Known as the New Order of the Latter Rain or
just the Latter Rain Movement its influence has steadily grown within the Pentecostal and Charismatic
Churches since 1948. Today, through the influence of various “revivals” its leaven is spreading even further
into the Evangelical world.
An apostasy or “falling away” is essentially a rebellion of God’s people against His Word.
Rebelling against the New Testament picture of the Church in the last days as a despised remnant of
the faithful holding on until the rapture, they began to develop a heretical doctrine of a triumphant Church –
conquering the world and bringing in the kingdom of Christ. The first time the Church adopted such a
theology it resulted in the development of Roman Catholicism and ushered in the Dark Ages. This time the
result will be much the same but of a much shorter duration. It will produce the one-world ecumenical
church, “The Great Harlot” that will triumph for a short time under Anti-Christ – “Drunken with the blood of
the saints and martyrs of Jesus.”
It came to be taught that the “Latter Rain” revival of 1948 was to be the first in a series of
“restorational moves of God” that would restore to the Church all of the truths that Satan had “robbed” her
of. The five-fold ministries of apostles and prophets would also be restored to the church. These restored
“apostles” and “prophets” would lead the Church into “present truth” and the “last great moves of God.”
Eventually when the Church was mature enough the “rapture” would occur. But the rapture of the Latter
Rain would be a much different rapture than the Church had ever taught before. It would be a “spiritual”
coming of Christ into His Church, His “corporate body.” A “corporate anointing.” The saints would be
“glorified”, even “deified” – right here on this earth. This overcoming army of saints believes it will go
forth conquering and triumphing over all of it’s enemies in the Great Tribulation. When they are done Christ
will be “released from the heavens”, to come and take control of the kingdom they have established.
This doctrine is known as the “Manifest Sons of God” or “Sonship” and has spread throughout the
Evangelical Church through the Charismatic and Kingdom/Dominion Movements. The Latter Rain
“revivals” that are occurring in Toronto, Pensecola, and various other places are popularizing and spreading
this heresy at an alarming rate. It is known popularly today as “Joel’s Army”. Thousands of Christians are
coming into a strong delusion because they did not receive the love of the truth. While they may have
received the truth, they did not have a love for it and have therefore fallen away from it. They are trading
their blessed hope for an earthly delusion.
I think the key thing to keep in mind with this question of “Jesus Himself versus the scriptures” is that Jesus does actually appear to people as Himself and speak to them or give them visions or dreams, it is a fact.
Also Jesus does actually live inside of us as believers along with the Holy Spirit and the Father and we shouldn’t be surprised if we hear Him talking to us directly as Eternal Life is to know the Father and Jesus Christ and knowing someone is in relationship through communicating with them as a real person.
It’s not only the demons who can appear to people. In fact if there are so many demons and the devil himself “faking it” that tells us even more clearly that the Lord is the true revealer of Himself to His people. All the devil does is counterfeit. Doesn’t mean that there isn’t the “real deal”. Fair call?
I have heard the Lord speak to me on a number of occasions and I’ve known deep in my heart when it was Him who has spoken. I’ve just known. “My sheep hear My voice” Jesus said. I’ve experienced that.
Now you might say, “How do you know it was Jesus?” Well, what He said gave me a sense of deep release, not me trying to feel different but just His word spoken to me made me feel different. Free. Released. Part of the “decaying corpse” falling off. Freedom from the presence of what is not pleasing to God and what weighs me down as a human being. Free to serve the Living God. I didn’t have to try to receive it, I just heard it and it changed me.
Also everything that Jesus has told me has been inaccordance with the overall testimony of scripture, the “right-through-the-Bible” revelation of the heart and nature and character of God.
Finally, after those times when He has spoken to me in the days and weeks, months and years which have followed I have been irrevokably changed – I am just not the same anymore. I naturally live the truth of what He has told me. Most times, it’s a progressive experience of increasing freedom from that initial experience where the root was broken which was hindering the development of His Life in me.
“You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free”.
“I AM the Way the Truth and The Life no one comes to the Father but by Me”.
In other words, we shall know Jesus and Jesus will set us free.
“If the Son sets you free you will be free indeed”.
This is my experience. The scripture gives us confidence that what we are hearing from Jesus is indeed being heard from Jesus and not from a deceitful spirit, a lying spirit, a demon or the devil himself.
The scripture also teaches us about the character of God but the scripture is spiritually discerned and only as we are reading in submission to the Holy Spirit’s wisdom can we understand the scripture.
If the “presiding spirit” when we are reading scripture is the spirit of fear then we will be deceived and led astray with all “winds of doctrine”.
If the “Presiding Spirit” is the Holy Spirit when we read scripture, i.e. we read the word when He leads us to read the word, then we will be led into all truth in that encounter with God through the word. This has been my experience.
When the Holy Spirit lays a passage on my heart and gives me an unction to read it and “get into it” then it is a blessed time indeed.
“The Word of God is Living and Active sharper than any two edge sword”…
“The Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God”…
“Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly”…
“Be filled with the Holy Spirit”…
We don’t have to be afraid to hear Jesus speaking to us directly, He will give us discernment to know that is it He speaking to us. There are other spirits which speak to us also but He will give us discernment to know this also.
“When He the Spirit of Truth comes He will lead you into all Truth”…
Only the Jesus Christ of the Bible is able to save us. ALL other christs’ are the FALSE christs’ warned about repeatedly throughout the scriptures.
Whoever comes to you must be consistent with the Word of God or he is a counterfeit.
Quote from Wayne above:
“It is known popularly today as “Joel’s Army”. ”
end quote:
Several of us were led of the Lord to go to a site online , at first we thought it was sound until the Lord revealed His truth, which ended up being a cult, about the manifest sons of God or in their eyes an elite group and no women are allowed in the so called manchild. That word alone has been twisted everywhere it can be in the unbiblical sense.
As we obeyed the Lord we met few there and only one came out of that cult. What the Holy Ghost spoke loud and clear one day to me was clear, plain and simple and written in His word:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galations 3:28
Glad you also brought this up Wayne, because we are not an army, We are the body of Christ.
I dont believe this was coincidence what you shared or what my husband just sent to me either.
the myth:
The word, “army” occurs 3 times in the New Testament and never in reference to the Body of Christ, only in reference to an ACTUAL army. We are not an army, we are a body. This may seem like a minor point, but…it isn’t.
There are several very good reasons why we need to decide NOT to adopt the popular but unscriptural idea that Christians comprise an army…. besides the fact that it isn’t scriptural.
Reason one:
An army is ordered as a hierarchy, a body is not. In an army, there are commanders and subcommanders and subsubcommanders, etc. In a body, the brain sends messages directly to each part via the nervous system. Your elbow does not tell your hand what to do. God speaks personally with each member and that is where true order comes from. It isn’t a stiff external order, but deep, beautiful peace, coordination, and harmony. When your brain tells your hand to lift up, your entire body automatically lifts and supports your hand.
Reason two:
Armies are assembled for a purpose which usually involves forcing, killing, and the imposition of it’s will. A literal army is sometimes needed on earth. But in God’s kingdom, we don’t want to force anybody to our will because love is never rude. It is impossible to threaten or manipulate a person to God because an authentic decision cannot be made under those circumstances.
Reason three:
You are individually important to God. He does not want to use you, but to work His wonderful works through you according to your faith. In an army the personhood of each individual soldier is not as important as the goal of the army. In the Body, God’s Kingdom is glorified by whole, developed, unique, fulfilled people who all function in their individual gifts, callings, and talents.
Reason four: Our war has been won.
Seeing a religious army approaching is going to send the world running in the opposite direction, and for good reason. There is no shortcut to the expansion of God’s Kingdom. It is done one heart at a time, from person to person. If you don’t have a shine to your heart, enlisting in a sign-waving army won’t help. What the Body needs are all the individual members to realize who they are in Christ and to love both other believers, and those who do not yet know God.
~Don Francisco
The suppression of the truth throughout history, as well as the perversion of the truth, has always been part of the devil’s schemes:
Act 13:10 “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop PERVERTING THE RIGHT WAYS of the Lord?”
Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who SUPPRESS THE TRUTH by their wickedness,
For one thing I would stay away from anything that has a name other than the name of Jesus attached to it, that would be a perversion of the truth. Jesus simply called His message the gospel, the good news, nothing else. I am wondering now how much of the truth has been suppressed by the Babylon church down through the centuries..
Psa 24:7 Lift up your heads, O you gates; be lifted up, you ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in.
Psa 24:8 Who is this King of glory? The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle.
Psa 24:9 Lift up your heads, O you gates; lift them up, you ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in
Oh Lord, I pray that you will reveal and uncover all that has been hidden by wicked and crafty men throughout time, that the King of glory may come in!!! Lift up you ancient gates!!
Andrew J: “It’s not only the demons who can appear to people. In fact if there are so many demons and the devil himself “faking it” that tells us even more clearly that the Lord is the true revealer of Himself to His people. All the devil does is counterfeit. Doesn’t mean that there isn’t the “real deal”. Fair call?”
YES! counterfeits/perverts the truth AND suppresses the truth!
What the apostle Paul wrote was not a postcard. The Old Testament written in Hebrew and the New Testament written in Greek were inspired by God. The writers wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, God guiding their minds and thoughts. The apostle Peter tells us so. “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Peter 1:21)
The apostles had authority to write. Their writings became scripture and doctrine. There were other books written but only what is contained in scripture is inspired. The others are not.
God’s word is very important to the christian. It feeds the indwelling spirit, just like food feeds the human body. No food, no growth, no strength.
We are to praise God’s word. The scriptures tells us so. “In God I will praise his word …” (Psalm 56:4). In God will I praise his word: in the LORD will I praise his word.” (Psalm 56:10)
Lucille
You know its truly one thing to stay away, to steer clear from the apostasy, demons of doctrine , etc… but when the Lord sends you in, He most assuredly prepares the way before you. We should obey Him, no matter where He leads. We may not know the reason and or reasons at first but He will show quickly the reason. Praise God for the one whom came out or the ones whom come out, yes! Praise God!!!
Address these questions please, WITHOUT using circular reasoning. How did paul’s letters, the words of the apostles become canon? What was the mechanism God used? You all continue to say “ALL scripture is inspired by God”, etc. and define that word “scripture” as the Bible, the entire Bible and nothing but the Bible. How can you make that assumption when THE BIBLE WASN’T EVEN A CONCEPT when that verse was written? Then is there a certain translation that is also canon? Address the grammatical errors in translation that have become tradition over the course of a millenia, are they correct because they are commonly accepted or because they are true? You can read the Bible and get all the warm fuzzies you want about what you believe, but open a HISTORY BOOK and read about the men who canonized the Bible, what their agenda was, as well as the men who translated it into english. Study the Greek and Hebrew and you will find that the words are a lot different than we have been taught by men.
If it’s too scary to fathom, I understand. I was there. It shakes everything you believe to the core. God forbid we should reevaluate everything we have ever put our faith in! But when you question the intentions and falliabilities of MEN and seek the truth of GOD he will bring glory to Himself like we have never experienced.
Study the greek and hebrew?
The Lord has never led me to do that, perhaps maybe others have been led, I dont know. I have looked at words before but thats it.
Why is it Gods people read His Word, the BIBLE and He STILL TODAY SPEAKS to us, through us, by and through His WORD and by and through His Holy Spirit. It is God breathed, the Lord knew what would happen before it ever became!!!
Psalm 78
“O my people, hear my teaching; listen to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter HIDDEN THINGS, things FROM OF OLD – what we have heard and known, what our fathers have told us.
We will not hide them from their children; we will tell the next generation the praiseworthy deeds of the Lord, his power, and the wonders he has done.
He has decreed statutes for Jacob and established the law in Israel, which he commanded our forefathers to teach their children, so the next generation would know them, even the children yet to be born, and they in turn would tell their children.
Then they would put their trust in god and would not forget his deeds but would keep his commands. They would not be like their forefathers – a stubborn and rebellious generation, whose hearts were not loyal to God, whose spirits were not faithful to him.
The men of Ephraim though armed with bows, turned back on the day of battle….”
Consider, everything that happened to Israel is a kind of living parable for the body of Christ today. “These things were written as ensamples…”
Israel used to have revelation that the laws and commands given through Moses were a living parable of things concerning their Messiah – they used to know and understand about the Son of God coming and dying to atone for the sins of man!! But by the time Jesus came on earth, these truths had been suppressed and hidden, by “the lying pen of the scribes”:
Jer 8:8 ” ‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
THE SAME IS TRUE FOR THE BODY OF CHRIST TODAY!
Do any of us consider that we have finished learning everything we need to know about the things of God – do we consider that we have
received revelation of everything God wants us to be in possession of? Or do we humbly continue seeking for that treasure hidden in dark places..
Isa 45:3 I will give you the treasures of DARKNESS, riches STORED IN SECRET PLACES, so that you may know that I am the Lord, the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
Pro 2:1 My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you,
Pro 2:2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding,
Pro 2:3 and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding,
Pro 2:4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for HIDDEN TREASURE,
Pro 2:5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.
Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto TREASURE HIDDEN in a field..
The full revelation of Jesus Christ has been hidden and suppressed, so let us be like Sarah who was not afraid to call Abraham her Lord…fear will keep us from moving from relationship and courtship to full CONSUMMATION! There is a groaning in the spirit for Jesus to take full possession of His Bride…Has He not said, if we ask him for bread, He will not give us a stone.
Wayne wrote this: ” Thousands of Christians are
coming into a strong delusion because they did not receive the love of the truth. While they may have
received the truth, they did not have a love for it and have therefore fallen away from it. They are trading
their blessed hope for an earthly delusion.”
And this:
“Only the Jesus Christ of the Bible is able to save us. ALL other christs’ are the FALSE christs’ warned about repeatedly throughout the scriptures.
Whoever comes to you must be consistent with the Word of God or he is a counterfeit.”
That’s right Wayne. A STRONG DELUSION. It appears people want a “god” of their own making that they can “mold” into their own image. One that they want to be exactly what THEY want, but NOT as the unfathomable righteous Holy God that He truely is and is written about in His word, the Holy Bible.
Andrew J. Horton wrote: “I have heard the Lord speak to me on a number of occasions and I’ve known deep in my heart when it was Him who has spoken. I’ve just known. “My sheep hear My voice” Jesus said. I’ve experienced that.”
Sure Andrew. All true born again of His Holy Spirit children can “hear” our precious Savior’s voice because He dwells INSIDE of us and we hear can Him. Because He LOVES us and He wants His true children to KNOW His voice.
He “speaks’ in all kinds of ways through visions, dreams, prophecy, songs….a myriad of numerous ways. But it ALWAYS is in AGREEMENT with scripture AND the Holy Spirit.
But if people reject “His voice” and want something else, then they CAN’T “hear” Him because they are not willing to ACCEPT what He says, which is ALWAYS confirmed in His word, the precious Holy Bible.
If people want a “god” in their own image, that is exactly what they will get. Because God gives you EXACTLY what you want. We have to be willing to accept the “not so comfortable fuzzy wuzzy” truth from our Lord, as well as the scriptures that tell us all about love and kindness.
God’s correction and discipline and strong words and rebukes ARE HIS LOVE, as well as the scriptures that just talk about “pleasing” things.
If people do not want Him, they will not HAVE Him. He only comes to people who WANT Him in TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH which is the WORD OF GOD revealed in the Holy Scriptures.
Isn’t our Lord so gracious to reveal Himself to us, through the written word that He spoke to His servants (down thru the ages) to write down in writings called scripture, the Holy Bible? And when we “hear” something in our own spirit, we can go back to the WRITTEN WORD and “see” if it is confirmed there too?
That gives us a peace knowing that it is confirmed.
That’s REAL LOVE.
Kelsey, I was able to go on the forum the day before yesterday I think it was and read your posts, just wanted to say I was very blessed by your testimony and everything you had said, and it started such a longing for Jesus, to have what you have. I was blocked again yesterday and couldn’t read what you had written, but when I merely saw your name on the list on the right of the screen showing the names of the latest posts, I saw Jesus walking and moving among the people over there on the forum!
Because I have seen Jesus, I am willing to consider and try on for size (test) the things you and “mhz” and “WCJ” are saying. I don’t see any of you lifting up any other name than the name of Jesus, not a “ministry”, not an “organization”, not a “movement”, only Jesus! The above post is what the Lord is opening my eyes to this morning..I needed to say it as much for my own sake as anything..there is a lot of fear of deception and fear is linked to “control” and also “pride” – ironically all the same things that always have caused the truth to be suppressed. But the Lord is trustworthy, if we belong to Him, He is able to keep us.
Kelsy wrote:
“Study the Greek and Hebrew and you will find that the words are a lot different than we have been taught by men.
If it’s too scary to fathom, I understand. I was there. It shakes everything you believe to the core.”
Hello Kelsy. I have studied the greek and hebrew origins of words and do it all the time. And it doesn’t phase me nor am I scared about it in the least. I love learning new meanings about my precious and amazing Most High Awesome Forever and Forever King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
“taught by men”
Yes, we have been wrongly “taught by men”. We need to get back to what scripture REALLY said and to be taught by individuals who REALLY KNOW their God.
Everyone else is an impostor. A fake. A poser and a wannabe.
It also does not shake me at all because God is a STRONG TOWER for His children and my God has NOT given me a “SPIRIT OF FEAR” but of POWER, OF LOVE and OF A SOUND MIND. (found in 2nd Timothy 1:7)
I don’t know about you, but I CHOOSE to believe what God’s written word says and what the Holy Spirit confirms instead of getting myself all distracted with wasteful and unnecessary rabbit trails.
“Isn’t our Lord so gracious to reveal Himself to us, through the written word that He spoke to His servants (down thru the ages) to write down in writings called scripture, the Holy Bible? And when we “hear” something in our own spirit, we can go back to the WRITTEN WORD and “see” if it is confirmed there too?
That gives us a peace knowing that it is confirmed.”
Heidi, what do you think of what it is written in my posts above? Especially,
Jer 8:8 ” ‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?”
The Lord in His sovereignty has left us enough clues to go on – I’m blown away that that statement managed to survive the religionistas’ erasor!
I’m sure you will agree that there is nothing new under the sun, and we need the Holy Spirit to navigate us through the minefield of everything that has been and is being taught as truth – but without fear, and I pray He will minister to each one of us in that area.
Hi watchful, you wrote:
“Heidi, what do you think of what it is written in my posts above? Especially,
Jer 8:8 ” ‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?”
What are you asking? Perhaps you can clarify.
Another clue: we are looking to and entering a day when,
Jer 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
Hbr 8:11 “No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.”
Once we “know the Lord” in His fullness, we will no longer need to teach or learn the written word, we will know HIM! He is the fulfillment of all that is written, He will possess us and we will possess Him – why would we need to read ABOUT Him any longer when we are in full possession of He about whom the written word testifies? His mind, His thoughts, His will, His very nature! That is so glorious! Very soon now!
Think about it this way “kelsey” the Holy Spirit wrote the scripture. The Holy Spirit is your Teacher. When the Holy Spirit prompts you – and you know His voice and the way He leads you – to read a certain scripture then you can be pretty sure that He wrote it.
I personally have looked into Strong’s Concordance and the Greek Interlinear in fact it got to a stage a few years ago when I used to take my Greek Interlinear to church just to be sure I got the gist correctly of the meaning as best as I knew the Greek words at the time.
I started learning Greek – got as far as the alphabet – but then haven’t pursued it. I’ll be picking my interlinear and Strongs Concordance up from home when I head back to NZ for holiday in July as I have the desire again to get back into these true word meanings.
I’ve found that some of the English words have been wrongly translated but as I read I get prompted to check all the different translations – there’ll all available on the net also – and the Lord gives me a peace to which one is best representing the truth He’s conveying through that scripture.
One classic one is in Gal 6 under the Fruit of the Spirit where the NIV translates the word “faithfulness” when the word in the Greek is “pistos” = “faith” which the KJV got correct. The very next word “gentleness” in the NIV is better translated “meekness” (can’t remember that in the Greek), i.e. like “for I am meek and lowly in heart”. So the Fruit of the Spirit is…. “faith, meekness and self-control”, or really in words we can understand “faith, humility and self-control”. Puts quite a different spin on it doesn’t it?
We have to believe, and I always have had a sense that, as God is Sovereign He will always preserve a testimony to His Name. So amongst all the translations and the Interlinears the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, i.e. where He knows the accurate translations are.
I believe that the 66 books which made it into the canon of scripture are the scripture. I believe that the canon of scripture is now closed and I believe that anyone who comes claiming revelation from God equal in authority to the canon of scripture, i.e. progressive revelation, or a continuation of the revelation of scripture, is a false prophet and the spirit behind that “revelation” is a deceiving spirit.
I do not believe this because I have been taught it – although I have been taught it – but because I know it is so in my heart via the Holy Spirit giving me that settled peace just as in the same way as I know in my heart that I’m saved and that I’m going to heaven.
Andrew J. Horton wrote: “Think about it this way “kelsey” the Holy Spirit wrote the scripture. The Holy Spirit is your Teacher. When the Holy Spirit prompts you – and you know His voice and the way He leads you – to read a certain scripture then you can be pretty sure that He wrote it.”
YES Andrew! The HOLY SPIRIT “wrote” the scriptures THROUGH earthen set apart “vessels”…..MEN!
Yes! He will ALWAYS preserve a testimony to His Name!
What does SCRIPTURE say?
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.” (Matthew 24:35)
His “WORDS” are SCRIPTURE. Given to us as a preserved testimony. Praise His Holy Name!
Heidi:
Jer 8:8 ” ‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?”
Is that not biblical confirmation of some of the things being said here today?
When I came out of the churches, I found I had to take a step back from everything I thought I knew and lay it on the altar to let the Lord sift through it ALL – don’t be afraid to do that, sister. In fact I would gladly give up everything I “know” in order to gain Christ in His fullness. The apostle Paul said he resolved to “know nothing” but CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED!
Common sense alone tells us what the false church did with the writings of our early church fathers, the apostles – it was all too threatening and undermining for those who were interested in power and control and selfish gain, the usual problems of flesh. For example, do we really believe those epistles were ALL the letters that were written to the early churches in all those years of travelling and missionary activity by the apostles? What was done with the rest of them? Someone should ask the Vatican..were they destroyed or is it possible they are even now hidden away in the darkness under lock and key and possibly armed guards? Why? FEAR.
I’ve always felt that it was a complete book “watchful” when I’ve read it through – I’ve read it through 5 or 6 times cover to cover – from “In the beginning God…” to “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end…”. I’ve always had that sense as I’ve finished it that I’ve finished the book. I’ve never felt sad that there was something missing or that there should have been something more. A few bits here and there I’ve been confused by, nothing “salvational”, but I know the Lord will bring revelation in due time.
There are times in our lives when the Lord is very real and we are living in His conscious presence. There are times where He takes us through times of testing where we “walk in darkness and have no light” that’s when His word can be a lamp to our feet and a light to our path.
There are even times when neither the Lord’s presence nor His word do anything for us. In those times we “trust in the Name of the Lord and rely on our God”.
It brings great joy to our Lord to see us down on earth with no light of His counterance upon us and no revelation coming out of His word continuing faithfully on doing what He has established in our hearts to that point in time in faith.
He probably brings it up when the devil stands before Him trying to condemn us: “Have you noticed my servant “watchful” faithfully continuing to serve me even though see’s in a complete wilderness right now?” Food for thought… :-)
Correction:
He probably brings it up when the devil stands before Him trying to condemn us: “Have you noticed my servant “watchful” faithfully continuing to serve me even though she’s in a complete wilderness right now?” Food for thought… :-)
Watchful, as I’ve said before, the problem I think you are having isn’t with the written “word” of God, the scriptures. The problem, is with HOW the scriptures have been taught and WHO has been doing the teaching.
There is some VERY BAD teaching out their right now.
There are some VERY BAD so called “teachers” out there right now.
It has and is making sheep very, very sick. I just recieved a vision from the Lord last week about how bad He says it is. Its BAD FOLKS! REAL BAD!
These individuals do not HAVE the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they do not KNOW HOW to teach the scriptures properly, NOR HANDLE the word of God properly.
In other words, they do not know HOW to “rightly divide the word” as scripture says.
The “lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely” is just about what I’ve written here.
You have people who do not KNOW the Lord, teaching His word through FALSE and LIEING lips. The twist and pervert and “add to” what He is really saying, and they do it presumptuously and
heretically and ignorantly.
And, they are not afraid to blaspheme Him!
Know what scripture says to those folks? WOE TO YOU SNAKES!
The deepest darkest recess of the burning pit of hell (geenna) are “reserved” for these folks!
Oh, but wimpy cowards, don’t want to HEAR that. They want to PRETEND that a righteous God would not do THAT! Send evil people to HELL!
Sorry decieved people! The SNAKES and SERPENTS and ANYONE who presumptuously misrepresents the Most High Righteous Holy God ARE GOING to the burning pit, that “lake of fire burning with brimstone”! (Rev 19:20)
It’s a done deal.
Because God is righteous and perfectly JUST.
“Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself And opened its mouth beyond measure; Their glory and their multitude and their pomp, And he who is jubilant, shall descend into it” (Isaiah 5:14)
Ah, bless you Andrew J, I don’t even know why, but this passage seems appropriate and a wonderful promise:
Isa 42:12 Let them give glory to the Lord and proclaim his praise in the islands.
Isa 42:13 The Lord will march out like a mighty man, like a warrior he will stir up his zeal; with a shout he will raise the battle cry and will triumph over his enemies.
Isa 42:14 “For a long time I have kept silent, I have been quiet and held myself back. But now, like a woman in childbirth, I cry out, I gasp and pant.
Isa 42:15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills and dry up all their vegetation; I will turn rivers into islands and dry up the pools.
Isa 42:16 I will lead the blind by ways they have not known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them; I will turn the darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them.
Lord if that is what you will do for the blind, then make me blind!! Let us acknowledge our blindness!
quote Watchful
“For example, do we really believe those epistles were ALL the letters that were written to the early churches in all those years of travelling and missionary activity by the apostles? What was done with the rest of them? Someone should ask the Vatican..were they destroyed or is it possible they are even now hidden away in the darkness under lock and key and possibly armed guards?
end quote”
God is All powerful and ALL knowing….
Some people have a view of God and the human assumption that he is some puny little god that cant even realize He protected His word and Protects His word for us to hear!!!
God have Mercy!!!!
If there were more letters it is irrelevant. God MADE the WORD What He WANTED HIS WORD TO BE, and it is SO! Its Complete! There is a lacking of just who God really is.
When we are blind then we are more trusting, we’re not moving very fast in fact we’re groping but we’re more aware that we really need the Lord to guide us, we’re more dependant.
Once we come to that place of dependance the Lord may periodically bring us back there to remind us again but He may give us times of free rein in between where we go and do what He’s birthed out of those times of earnest listening and careful dependance on Him…
Beautiful scriptures “watchful”… my heart always gets encouraged when I hear scriptures about “the islands”… :-)
Hey! Ok, Heidi, I wasn’t referring to being afraid of anything that God would reveal, but rather the apprehension of the washing away of traditional ways and teachings that we experienced when our traditions become threatened. On this side of the matter I am not afraid, I experience strengthening and a new joy as the light of His Word is revealed. But Who wouldn’t experience fear (and trembling!) when the Spirit reveals clearly that all or even some of what they have believed all their life is the work of man?
It’s getting hard to follow the conversation with so many voices chiming in, but praise God that there are so many interested! On the subject of “contradictions” in the Bible: I believe there are some that are apparent to man. On the SURFACE. I am grateful that there are those out there, however mislead that take it upon themselves to “disprove” His Word. It brings all the more glory to Him when He proves Himself through the diligent searching of His children. Jesus spoke to the people in parables. They didn’t understand what He was talking about IF they took His words at face value. Even the disciples didn’t grasp what He was sayng all of the time. Jesus said be careful HOW you listen. Whoever has will be given more, whoever doesn’t have, even what he THINKS he has will be taken away.
I will never claim to know more than God or add or take away from His Word. I am a finite being. My knowledge is finite. My understanding is finite. He is INfinite, there is no end, EVER EXPANDING. He knows no limits or bounds. Do you really believe that? I am not satisfied with the finite understanding that I have. If I was I would cease to grow. Because it is my nature to lean on my own understanding, to say “yes, it is this way or that way” It is an act of humility to seek His Word PAST my own understanding. And through that act I believe He makes me more like Himself – ever expanding. I let His grace be sufficient, but guard against believing that sufficiency equates to personal satisfaction. I wholeheartedly believe His promise that if I ask I will receive. I wholeheartedly believe His command, to seek first the Kingdom. And my earnest desire is to seek out the revelation of His glory in ALL things with the wide-eyed wonder of a child.
Yes. I believe the canonization of the Bible is a man made thing. He has not revealed it differently to me. I cannot believe that an epistle written by an apostle in Christ that “didn’t make the cut” can’t be used to further His glory in understanding the true Spirit of the scripture. It is to be done carefully, through the guidance of His Spirit, with MUCH prayer and discernment, however looking at the scripture through the Light of His Truth in the words of an epistle not included in the canon can be as glorifying to Him as finding Truths confirmed in the Gospel through the book of Isaiah. Canon is a man-made concept, man’s understanding of the definition of scripture.
Can the enemy bring a counterfeit gospel? Yes! Can he work counterfeit signs and wonders? Yes! But a counterfeit is ALWAYS dependant on the real thing! Counterfeit money would have no worth if there was nothing to copy in the first place. This is the nature of the enemy, as it was from the beginning. His purpose was to bring glory to the Father, as is the purpose of ALL created things. Through the fall of the enemy, however much he fights against the fact, he STILL brings glory to the father. When the enemy performs a work, however dastardly it seems, the end result is that it will ALWAYS bring glory to the Father. When he does his work I don’t sit back and condemn, I don’t say “damn that devil, look at all the evil he is working in the world today!” but rather say “Ha! Look at what you have done! Through your pride and defiance you have still glorified the One you sought to lift yourself above!” And as far as false works and false healings, If satan casts out satan, how will his kingdom stand! Though he seems to lift himself up, his knee is STILL bent to the throne of God, and will always be! He is ALREADY defeated. Believe and rejoice!
Please do not hear any condemnation in my words, EXCEPT those that echo Christs warning about leading these little ones astray. The same, I believe, was mentioned earlier “the lying pen of the scribes” the ones who convolute the Word for power, “order”, personal gain or even just to make humanly sense of heavenly things.
And watchful, beautiful analogy about the ravens earlier, I never thought of it that way. Clean food delivered by an unclean animal! The Holiest of Holies delivered through that which our eyes would see as “not of God”. Amazing. and to WHOM was the food delivered?
May God bless you all through the richness of His Word.
Sure kelsey, God is going to smash EVERY tradition, EVERY FALSE RELIGIOUS TEACHING, EVERY LIEING PRECEPT, EVERY PRESUMPTION, EVERY LOFTY IDEA, EVERY CONCEIT that raises itself against His true and righteous and HOLY PERFECTION that He is. THE GREAT I AM. The ALL IN ALL..
EVERYTHING THAT IS MAN MADE AND DOESN’T REPRESENT HIM IS GOING TO BE OBLITERATED. UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY. EVERYTHING.
And He will not let His name be mocked nor His holiness be misrepresented.
People better get out of His way if they are mishandling His word and ARE LIEING and saying He is some STUPID CHARACTER in some book that doesn’t even look like Him and says that everyone is going to be saved and with Him in heaven because that’s ALL LIES FROM THE PIT OF HELL.
Jesus said it is a NARROW ROAD and FEW find the way to His kingdom. ONLY THOSE WHO OBEY HIM will be there.
ONLY THOSE who LOVE HIM and HIS WORD. ONLY THOSE who want what HE WANTS and DO WHAT HE DOES will be there in His kingdom. ONLY THOSE who KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.
But the COWARDLY, THE UNBELIEVING, THE LOVERS OF THE FALSE AND THE LOVERS OF LIES, THE LOVERS OF MAN, THE STEALERS AND ADULTERERS WHO PROSTITUTE HIS HOLY NAME TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER FOR FAME AND FORTUNE……they WILL NOT BE THERE in HIS HOLY KINGDOM.
That’s good Kelsy that you are not afraid because He doesn’t like COWARDS and those who TAMPER and PERVERT HIS WORD.
In fact, HE HATES THEM with a PERFECT HATRED.
I do speak boldly, and I do not say a word that I would be ashamed to speak before the throne of the Most High God, because I believe that by speaking to you, I am standing before the throne. We are the seat of Christ. We have become the Holy of Holies. If God judges me to be in error, if I have spoken my words and not His, then LET ME BE JUDGED and let this challenge to your faith serve to strengthen you in His Spirit, the knowledge of His Word and to plant in you an earnest desire to lift Him up before all things and all people so that all that you know would see the richness of our King. To God be ALL the glory, in heaven and earth!
…and then He sent His Son…who is altogether lovely and so very gracious. I wish the whole world could see Him as I am seeing Him today, well, praise God someday they will! The Lord bless you too Kelsey..
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Personally I really enjoyed the shack for what it was a work of Fiction, within that Fiction Like that of C.S. Lewis and Tolkien are great narrative and visual nuggets. Christians it seems have a great tendency to over react, it appears in these postmodern times their primary gift. I wonder what God our Father did before He had us to protect him. Some of these comments are really no more than the modern day equivalent of “Burning at the Stake”. Why the need to name so many people our enemies? For God so Loved the world He gave His Only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have live everlasting. Sorry if I appear to have a match in my hand that is only a fiction :)
Pastor Bill
Galatians 1:8-9 (King James Version)
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Great word Pastor Bill, it’s very true.
Wayne, no-on here is preaching another gospel, it’s the same gospel, the same truth, the same Jesus, only we get to serve Him with our minds FREE – actually we truly can’t serve the Lord any other way than free or it isn’t really Him we are serving.. Our minds need to get free of the chains of Babylon, and the bible agrees. We “come out of her” physically, and we need to come out of her mentally and spiritually as well. Like the children of Israel coming out of Egypt, they had come out of their slavery, but it took a while to get the slave out of them.
Watchful,
People here are suggesting that we should throw the bible away and have a relationship with some spiritual entity which comes to them and tells them “things.”
Without the bible as the basis on which to “JUDGE ALL THINGS they are obviously open to “whatever happens to take their fancy at the time OR to wherever this spiritual entity chooses to lead.”
A former Pastor of mine once said,
“I do not care about Bible doctrine, I only care about my anointing.”
He then proceeded to usher in a tsunami of Latter Rain and New Age heresies and practices and has thereby exposed the people of that church, who are obviously scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive, to demonic influences including those that Andrew Strom is addressing in his book on Kundalini.
Clearly this attitude is at the very pinnacle of spiritual ignorance
Consequently this injunction is particularly relevant to ALL of us.
Galatians 1:8-9 (King James Version)
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Attitudes such as this are rampaging through the church and we constantly need to remind ourselves of the teachings and warnings of scripture without which we would have NO idea of what GOD requires of us and would be as deluded as the people supporting the Pastors of these Latter Rain .and New Age churches.
2 Timothy 3:16, “ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness.”
Therefore the very best advice I am able to offer is as found in
2 Thessalonians 2 verse 15 where Paul advises the brethren in Christ to ….”Stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our epistle.”
In view of the many warnings about false christs,’ false teachers and the delusion which God has sent to TEST FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD I an duty bound to repeat ad nauseam
2 Thessalonians 2 verse 15 where Paul advises the brethren in Christ to ….
”Stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our epistle.”
Spiritual poision breeds, (feeds on)
spiritual ignorance!
God is not going to judge us for what we didnt know but for what we did know and do know!
ISheepkinz, I do hope you are NOT advocating scriptural ignorance or even avoidance as a means of escaping the judgement of our JUST God.
The Bible has been provided as THE means by which we come into the knowledge of how we should live a life pleasing to GOD. Man made religion will always be like the fruit platter which Cain substituted for the animal sacrifice which God had stipulated.
Those who have chosen scriptural ignorance and spiritual naivete over the TRUTH of the Word of God and the spiritual maturity which following it brings will certainly NOT escape JUDGEMENT by doing so.
There will be NO excuse for failure to follow the WORD of GOD.
I understand exactly what you are talking about Wayne, and I agree with you, however, what has been said here is NOT that we should throw the bible out and worship some “entity”. That is a misunderstanding of what is being said. The things that are being talked about, the bible itself agrees with. Guess the “pharisees” missed some spots when they were splicing and dicing. But Jesus is alive, we worship the living Christ. Yesterday I was again brought to a place of worship of our living Saviour. Why? Because someone brought Him to me, showed Him to me. I saw Jesus. And He is just so lovely. No angel of light (I’ve seen those too), no lifting up of self, or any “movement” or “ministry”, just Jesus, not just in words, but in spirit, His living reality..
I love the body of Christ here, but in truth I don’t see anyone else here showing me Jesus, (including me!) only words about Him – but not His spirit, His lovely nature. So, who would I be more inclined to listen to? Even in rebuking Jesus is lovely, not the same spirit we rebuke each other around here with at all. Isn’t that what we all want, to be carriers of Jesus, not carriers of self…or do we really believe that’s possible?
Just stop and think a minute, what does it mean to “canonize” something? Isn’t that what they do to dead people who are deemed to be special, deify and make gods out of them when they die, exactly what the pagan Romans used to do? They canonize them. Truly, it ought to make us sick..
2 Thessalonians 2 verse 15 where Paul advises the brethren in Christ to ….
”Stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our epistle.”
Mm-hmm. c’mon people, let’s give our head a shake – again, stop and think – which “canonized” version of the bible did Paul get his theology (the gospel) from? The King James? er, no, maybe the Latin Vulgate? Um, nope, let me see, it was the….umm… ;o)
Watchful, Im talking about people advocating this book, , NOT the WORD OF GOD!!!
dont put words in my mouth!!!!
…We could go further back and ask how it was that Abraham heard, believed, and obeyed the Living God, and obtained salvation through faith? Left his home and friends and family and staked his whole life and his eternal soul on what…? Without so much as even a Torah scroll to study..
Sorry Sheepkinz, I was responding to Wayne’s posts, hadn’t even read yours yet, I’m slow..our posts just crossed again I see!
correction, sorry watchful,
Wayne, NO Im talking about knowing the wrongs and errors and sin, and willfully continuing to accept knowing the word of God states clearly the opposite. Becoming more and more ignorant by the spiritual poision!!!
Perhaps my wording is not said in the right way.
this is a good time to stop, yes!
Heading way back up to “watchful’s” post where she ends, “Like the children of Israel coming out of Egypt, they had come out of their slavery, but it took a while to get the slave out of them” I’ve got some follow on thoughts…
When we understand that we are free, that we are loved, that we are accepted there is nothing to rebel against any more.
The Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 7:8 that, “sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead”.
When we realise that we are free from the Law having died with Christ and being made new by Him we stand in an understanding that we are no longer in the situation of “don’t do this”, “don’t do that” or “watch out if you do that”, i.e. under the spirit of fear.
When we feel the spirit of fear leave us and the Spirit of Love come and shine His truth in our hearts, then our resistance is broken and we want to please Him in that area where He’s shone His light.
There is no striving in this, only delight. Yes, as we live this way we are persecuted by those who are not living this way.
Strangely enough the ones who are total “heathen” don’t seem to persecute me as much now as when I was so “religious” and “pharisaical”.
I think I have a deeper compassion for mankind now than I ever used to have before the Lord brought me to this understanding.
The Grace of God is a deep mystery, those who are still under the “religious” and “pharisaical” spirit misunderstand it as “a licence to sin” and it’s interesting to notice that the Apostle Paul after preaching the Gospel of the Grace of God was also falsely accused of preaching, “let us sin so that grace might increase”.
The fact that this accusation was made proved that Paul had been correctly preaching the Gospel of the Grace of God because to those still under the “religious” and “pharisaical” spirit, i.e. under a spirit of fear, that’s exactly what it sounds like.
To those under the Spirit of Love, made perfect in love, having been given understanding by the Holy Spirit, they understand from first hand experience the moment when they first understood what had happened when they “crossed over from death to life”.
They were free, not under condemnation, could experiencee a relationship with God, wanted to do what God wanted them to do, knew there were still areas of healing and transformation remaining in their lives but that God would deal with these in His time. Knowing that they were accepted by God, they were “home”, where they belonged in the presence of God.
In this place it is a lot easier to discern the voices that speak to us, in this place, “My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me”.
Just because you hear Jesus speaking to you and you follow Him doesn’t make you throw away the word of God. The Spirit will bring certain scriptures to our remembrance and lead us into the scriptures as and when He knows that this is what we need. Just because we hear Jesus speaking to us doesn’t mean that we diminish the importance of the scriptures.
Rees Howells lived in the presence of God for the majority of his life, right in the presence of God in the Spirit, like Jesus of whom it was prophesied in Psalms, “I was always beholding the Lord in My presence because He is at My right hand I will not be shaken”, but this didn’t seem to stop him being fully committed to the scriptures as the Holy Spirit led him to seek out the truth which the Lord had for him from the scriptures.
The same was true of George Mueller and Smith Wigglesworth. I am not putting myself in the same league as Rees Howells, Smith Wigglesworth or George Mueller but it has also been my experience that the Holy Spirit has only heightened my devotion to the scriptures as He has heightened my devotion to the Father and to Jesus and my respect for Himself. He, the Holy Spirit, truly is an awesome influence in my life and without Him, Jesus and the Father I would be nothing.
Why do we need to argue about this guys?
Let’s just enjoy everything that God has given us and be grateful to Him for giving us “everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness”…
Amen?
oops, Wayne I agreed with you sated in earlier post. I was talking about the book and whatever else doesnt line up with the word of God.. Hope this clarifies better.
Watchful wrote:
“no-on here is preaching another gospel, it’s the same gospel, the same truth, the same Jesus”
NO Watchful. The Shack book IS ANOTHER JESUS.
It teaches ANOTHER TRUTH and ANOTHER GOSPEL.
That’s why certain ones in this thread are refuting it.
The Shack teaches EVERYONE is accepted by God into His kingdom.
God’s WORD says the COMPLETE OPPOSITE.
NOT EVERYONE will be with Him in His kingdom. ONLY THOSE who OBEY Him and KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. It is a NARROW ROAD to enter God’s kingdom.
God DESIRES that ALL men come to a knowledge of the truth, but He knows that some men will REJECT His truth. And BECAUSE they reject His commandments and truth, which are written about in scripture, they will be KEPT OUT OF HIS KINGDOM.
The Shack, a FICTION book says that it is a WIDE ROAD to the kingdom and EVERYONE will end up there because God is love and won’t send people to hell.
According to God’s word, the Holy Bible, this is a LIE. Therefore, the Shack book is also a LIE. And is TEACHING LIES.
That is NOT a wise or good thing.
You watchful, and some others, advocate that while good, the scriptures were tampered with by men and because they were “just” fallible men, that the scriptures (the written word) are therefore not AS important, because scripture instead, is written upon our hearts by the Holy Spirit.And, that scribes translated it wrong. So, we can just trust the Holy Spirit instead of trusting the pure written word of scripture.
But: The WORD of scripture AND the HOLY SPIRIT
CONFIRM one another. The written word of scripture WILL ALWAYS confirm what the Holy Spirit SPEAKS to our heart. And the HOLY SPIRIT will ALWAYS confirm scripture.
We need BOTH.
Because, you have many people saying they HEAR from the Holy Spirit but they really do not! That’s why we need to trust scipture to make sure we are HEARING correctly.
That is why, to water down scripture, which The Shack does, is wrong. And bad, bad, bad.
God says: that He IS HIS WORD (scripture) and He watches over it to perform it. (Jeremiah 1:12)
God says: that heaven and earth will pass away, but His word (scripture) WILL NEVER pass away (Matthew 24:35)
Watchful, God CANNOT DIVORCE HIMSELF from His WORD, the scriptures, which are contained in the pages of the Holy Bible.
Watchful you wrote:
“Guess the “pharisees” missed some spots when they were splicing and dicing”
Watchful, it is YOU who is “slicing and dicing” by ONLY accepting what you WANT out of the scriptures, instead of accepting ALL of the scriptures as it is written in the 66 books of the Bible.
Jesus Christ SAID: (in THE HOLY BIBLE, God’s word in books: Matthew,Mark, Luke John)
“IT IS WRITTEN….”
“IT IS WRITTEN…”
“IT IS WRITTEN….”
” IT IS WRITTEN….”
Need I say more?
Ok Heidi, I’m going to agree to disagree with you, wayne and the others who have obviously been offended. I believe that the shack by no means should be taken as doctrine, and there isn’t much to be found in it for the believer other than fictional entertainment. However the lost are already lost and I believe wholeheartedly that God CAN use the shack. If only to show them that they need Him. Peter and paul had to go their separate ways and so should we. I feel that all the posts that I have already made in this thread and others should reveal my Spirit to you and answer every question you have for me. I will no longer post on the topic. God bless you.
Kelsey, we appreciate you and we hope you continue to write. Some see God through scripture and others see scripture through God (agape). God bless. Mhz
Excellent post Kelsey, I agree.
Speaking of Paul, if the Lord can use a donkey to speak to Paul why is it so far-fetched that He can work through something else that isn’t ‘overtly Christian’?
blindwoodworker.com
Hi Folks
I hope I am doing this right, since I am blind and this sight is not designed for adaptive software.
I read the Shack many times, and I believe that it is from God. I believe that the Holy Spirit brought it into my life.
I believe that the book says that anyone can be saved, but I do not believe that it says thateveryone will be saved. My experience with Prison Ministry has showed me that anyone can be redeemed.
The book did not oppose a man’s free will to choose.
The fact that a Christian wrote a book against this book is proof to me that the book is of God.
The American church is in bad trouble, one reason I am on Andrew’s email list. The Shack will disturb anyone with a religious spirit. This is what the book opposes, ou American view of christianty.
I have learned that if I read a book and do not see any universalizm, then it may not be their.
I read the Bible and did not find pre trib ratpure, and had to be told about it. So I rejected it.
I read the Bible and did not find “Once saved, always saved,” and I rejected it.
One of the false Gods of the American church is doctrine.
John Sherrer
Interesting stuff John, thank you for posting. I agree with you too, people have a tendency to make doctrine the point and it’s not.
The Bible has been provided as THE means by which we come into the knowledge of how we should live a life pleasing to GOD. Man made religion will always be like the fruit platter which Cain substituted for the animal sacrifice which God had stipulated.
Those who have chosen scriptural ignorance and spiritual naivete over the TRUTH of the Word of God and the spiritual maturity which following it brings will certainly NOT escape JUDGEMENT by doing so.
There will be NO excuse for failure to follow the WORD of GOD.
1. In saying that books such as The Shack should be rejected completely by Bible believing christians it is interesting to look at the nature of the Gospel and spiritual power.
All supernatural power comes, ultimately, from either God or Satan. God gives power to those who believe the truth. To approach God, truth is the cost of entry.
Satan, however, whose nature is deception gives power to those who believe a lie. Believing the lie is the cost of entry to access Satan’s power. Witchcraft bolsters up the lie with: mystery, pseudo-science, ancient knowledge, new knowledge, etc…. The more absurd the lie, the better. The lie acts as a distracter.
If we mix certain ingredients in a drink… If we eat a special herb… If we arrange candles in a certain configuration… If we stare into a crystal ball… If we turn over Tarot cards… If we “read” the stars… If we speak a certain phrase, or mantra… If we have secret knowledge… If we draw certain symbols… then spiritual forces will come into play.
James 3:15 (NIV) Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil.
Witchcraft starts with a heart of rebellion and works by focusing on a distracter, a lie, which is some technique purported to release power. It is important to have “faith”, to trust in the technique and not God. Believing in lies is an “acceptable sacrifice” to Satan, the father of lies, who honors his children with real power. The irony is, that due to the inherent deceptive basis of witchcraft, the practitioners of it often think they are serving God, while accessing a power from below (earth)–not from above.
I am defining witchcraft as a desire to be a spiritual free agent without submission to God or regard for His word THE BIBLE.
1 Samuel 15:23 (NIV) “For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you…”
Psalms 107:11 (NIV) For they had rebelled against the words of God and despised the counsel of the Most High.
Nehemiah 9:26 (NIV) “But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they put your law behind their backs. They killed your prophets, who had admonished them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies.”
Does Witchcraft Work?
Even though Satan is usually the furthest thing from the mind, the “father of lies” honors the self-delusion inherent in witchcraft by occasionally releasing power, even doing supernatural miracles for those who have rebelled against God and yet still want to be spiritually effective. By this means, real power can be exerted to achieve health, beauty, enchantment, supernatural sensitivity, “insight” through drugs and experiences, oracles and visions, and the like. In this sense, witchcraft works.
Exodus 7:22 (NIV) But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.
Exodus 8:7 (NIV) But the magicians [Jannes and Jambres] did the same things by their secret arts; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt.
Witchcraft, characterized by belief in “knowledge from below”, and rejection of “knowledge from above,” in it’s more advanced and powerful stages, is a delusional belief in what is clearly not of God.
Satan’s tacit “deal” is: if you sacrifice truth on his altar, he will give you power for what you want now. But lies are flimsy things to put your trust in…
Exodus 8:18 (NIV) But when the magicians tried to produce gnats by their secret arts, they could not. And the gnats were on men and animals.
Isaiah 47:12 (NIV) “Keep on, then, with your magic spells and with your many sorceries, which you have labored at since childhood. Perhaps you will succeed, perhaps you will cause terror.”
Witchcraft In The Church
Deuteronomy 18:14 (NAS) “For those nations, which you will dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so.”
Acts 8:9-11 (NIV) Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, “This man is the divine power known as the Great Power.” They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic.
Jeremiah 5:23 (NIV) But these people have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away.
It is sobering to see how similar modern witchcraft (Wicca, or “white witchcraft”) is to modern Christianity. Self-aware witches bless as well as curse, ‘bind and loose’, prophesy, pray, lay hands on, anoint with oil, engage in an activity similar to many modern day “deliverance” ministries.
Some even consider themselves Christians with superior knowledge, understanding and power.
A few even worship Jesus–along with a pantheon of other gods and goddesses.
This should not surprise us, it was the same in Jesus’ day; nor should it poison our desire to practice real spiritual gifts.
Given the similarity, how does one tell the difference?
More importantly, are we dabbling with witchcraft?
Isaiah 30:9 (NIV) These are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to listen to the Lord’s instruction.
2 Timothy 3:6-8 (RSV) For among them are those who make their way into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and swayed by various impulses, who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth. As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith.
Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (NIV) Let no one be found among you… who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or cast spells, or who is a medium or spiritist.
Faithfulness to the WORD OF GOD alone is what HE is seeking from those who are truly HIS.
I repeat
Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (NIV) Let no one be found among you… who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or cast spells, or who is a medium or spiritist.
Faithfulness to the WORD OF GOD alone is what HE is seeking from those who are truly HIS.
Some people on this site have questioned the authority of the BIBLE itself. Whilst I suggest these people engage in a bible college course from a “reputable” evangelical bible college I would like to address some of the issues here.
There are many books today that claim to be the Word of God. The Koran, the Islam holy book, claims to be the Word of God. The Book of Mormon claims to be the Word of God. The Hindus believe the Bhagavad Vita is the source of eternal truth. Karl Marx, with his atheistic world view, claimed his writing, The Communist Manifesto, was the ultimate truth. A former Pastor of mine responsible for bringing Latter Rain and New Age heresies into the church my family grew up in even claimed that he did not “care about bible doctrine, I only care about my anointing.”
We Christians believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the eternal source of truth we live by. How do we know the Bible is the Word of God? Can we actually prove that the Bible is truly the Word of God? The answer is yes.
Before I begin this discussion of the authority of the Bible, let me first quote the words of Jesus found in John 15:18. Jesus warns his disciples about the attitude the world will have toward those who follow Him.
Jesus says, ‘If the world hates you, keep in mind it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own As it is you do not belong to the world. That is why the world hates you.
1 Peter 5:8 states, “Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.”
What is vital to understand from these passages is the attitude of the world toward God. The world is in rebellion against God, and worldly people under the influence of Satan seek to destroy your faith.
In the light of the times we live in, it is important Christians not only know what they believe but also, why they believe what they believe.
I once heard an astounding statistic. It indicated that 80 percent of the students who profess to be Christians leave for school and return home no longer believing in Christ. One of the reasons is this: when a student sits in class and hears the professor discredit the Bible, the student doesn’t have a defense and is easily deceived into believing the Bible is no longer credible. This happens too often because Christians know what they believe, but not why they believe it.
In my experience, there is no book that is criticized and attacked more than the Bible. Many intelligent scholars have written books that attempt to discredit the authority of the Bible. This is one of Satan’s goals: to get man to doubt the Word of God.
To counter this attack we will study some of the evidence in the case proving the authority and divine origin of the Bible. This knowledge will enable us to make a solid defense of the faith when we are attacked.
There has not been in the history of man a book that has rocked the world as has the Bible. The impact it has made is phenomenal. Some hail the Bible as the Word of God; others criticize and condemn it. With the Bible facing such great opposition today, and with many other works claiming to be the “word of God,” how do we know the Bible is the true Word of God? Let us take a look at the evidence.
Internal Evidence
The evidence for the authority of the Bible falls into two major categories: internal evidence and external evidence. I mean by internal evidence, the evidence that is found within the Bible itself. By external evidence, I mean evidence that is found outside the Bible, such as archaeology, science, philosophy, and ancient manuscripts. Let us first consider the former, the internal evidences.
Self-proclamation
The first fact is that the Bible claims to be the Word of God. The authors knew they were writing the words of God, even though they often did not fully understand what they were writing. 2 Timothy 3:16 states, “All scripture is inspired by God.” 2 Peter 1:21 states, “No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” Jesus himself viewed the Old Testament as authoritative and quoted from it throughout his ministry.
Holy Spirit
Second, the Holy Spirit confirms to us that the Bible is the Word of God. John 16:13 states, “But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.” The Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin also assures the believer that the Bible is God’s Word.
Transforming Ability
Third, we have evidence concerning the transforming ability of the Bible. Hebrews 4:12 says, “The word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit.” Romans 12:2 says, “And be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” The Word of God and the Spirit of God actually transforms the lives of people. The Bible has changed the lives of murderers, drug addicts, top government officials, business people, and students, to name just a few people from every walk of life who have been transformed by the Bible. No other book can make such a claim. This is because the Bible is not a mere book on good living but is literally packed with power. It is the Word of God with the power to change lives.
These are only three internal evidences supporting the authority of the Bible. These of course are not the best arguments to use in a debate, but they are evidence. In the next section, we will study what I believe is the best internal argument.
Unity
We have studied three internal evidences that support the authority and divine inspiration of the Bible. In this section, we will study the fourth internal evidence: the unity of the Bible.
The Bible covers hundreds of topics, yet it does not contradict itself. It remains united in its theme. “Well, what’s so amazing about that?” you may ask. Consider these facts. First, the Bible was written over a span of fifteen hundred years. Second, it was written by more than forty men from every walk of life. For example, Moses was educated in Egypt and became a prophet over Israel. Peter was a simple fisherman, Solomon was a king, Luke was a doctor, Amos was a shepherd, and Matthew was a tax collector. All the writers were of vastly different occupations and backgrounds.
Third, it was written in many different places. The Bible was written on three different continents: Asia, Africa, and Europe. Moses wrote in the desert of Sinai, Paul wrote in a prison in Rome, Daniel wrote in exile in Babylon, and Ezra wrote in the ruined city of Jerusalem.
Fourth, it was written under many different circumstances. David wrote during a time of war, Jeremiah wrote at the sorrowful time of Israel’s downfall, Peter wrote while Israel was under Roman domination, and Joshua wrote while invading the land of Canaan.
Fifth, the writers had different purposes for writing. Isaiah wrote to warn Israel of God’s coming judgment on their sin, Matthew wrote to prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah, Zechariah wrote to encourage a disheartened Israel who had returned from Babylonian exile, and Paul wrote addressing problems in different Asian and European churches.
If we put all these factors together, the Bible was written over fifteen hundred years, by forty different authors, at different places, under various circumstances, and addressing a multitude of issues. It is amazing that with such diversity, there is such unity in the Bible. That unity is organized around one theme: God’s redemption of man and all of creation. Hundreds of controversial subjects are addressed and yet the writers do not contradict each other. The Bible is an incredible document.
Let me offer you a good illustration from apologist Josh McDowell. Take ten contemporary authors and ask them to write their viewpoints on one controversial subject. Would they all agree? No, we would have disagreements from one author to another. Now look at the authorship of the Bible. All these authors, from a span of fifteen hundred years, wrote on many controversial subjects, and they do not contradict one another.(1)
It seems one author guided these writers through the whole process: the Holy Spirit. 1 Peter 2:21 states, “No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” The unity of the Bible is just one more amazing proof of the divine inspiration and authority of the Bible.
External Evidence
In our study on the authority of the Bible, we have studied the internal evidences, which are found within the Bible itself. Except for the unity of the Bible, most of these arguments are subjective in nature. Now we will study the external evidences of the Bible, that is, evidences found outside the Bible.
Indestructibility
The first external evidence is the indestructibility of the Bible. The Bible is the most well-known book in the history of the world, and no book has been attacked more than it. Skeptics have tried to destroy the authority of the Bible for the last eighteen hundred years. It has undergone every kind of scrutiny possible from archaeology, science, philosophy, and computers. Yet, despite all these attacks, the Bible proves itself to be true again and again. Each time the skeptics have been wrong, and the Bible has proven itself true. Just the fact that the Bible has remained steadfast in its authority after two thousand years is another piece of evidence supporting its divine origin.
Archaeology
The second source of external evidence comes from archaeology. Middle Eastern archaeological investigations have proven the Bible to be true and unerringly accurate in its historical descriptions. Nelson Glueck, a renowned Jewish archaeologist, states, “No archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference.”(2)
Dr. William Albright, who was not a friend of Christianity and was probably the foremost authority in Middle East archaeology in his time, said this about the Bible: “There can be no doubt that archaeology has confirmed the substantial historicity of the Old Testament.”(3)
Here are a couple of examples of the historical accuracy of the Bible. A good example is found in Genesis 14. The Bible speaks of Abraham’s victory over Chedorlaomer and five Mesopotamian kings. For years, the critics stated that these accounts were fictitious and many people discredited the Bible. In the 1960s, however, the Ebla tablets were discovered in northern Syria. The Ebla kingdom was a powerful kingdom in the twentieth century B.C. The Ebla tablets are records of its history. Thousands of tablets have been discovered. What is important is that many of these tablets make a reference to all five cities of the plain proving the Genesis 14 account to be accurate.(4)
Another example is the story of Jericho recorded in the book of Joshua. For years skeptics thought the story of the falling walls of Jericho was a myth. However, in the 1930s, Dr. John Garstang made a remarkable discovery. He states, “As to the main fact, then, there remains no doubt: the walls fell outwards so completely, the attackers would be able to clamber up and over the ruins of the city.” This is remarkable because city walls fall inward, not outward.(5)
The March 5, 1990 issue of Time magazine featured an article called, “Score One For the Bible.” In it, archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon claimed Jericho’s walls had fallen suddenly. Many scholars feel this was caused by an earthquake which may also explain the damming of the Jordan. Additionally, grain was discovered, which shows the city was conquered quickly. This find adds credence to the biblical account. Further study by Brian Wood found the date of the fall of Jericho to match the Bible’s date.(6)
Here are just two great examples of archaeology authenticating the historical reliability of the Bible. No book is as ancient, and at the same time, as convincingly accurate as the Bible.
Indestructibility and archaeology are two external evidences for the Bible.
Prophecy
There are many more external evidences for the Bible, but I’ll just cover one more: evidence from prophecy. The Bible contains hundreds of prophecies which have come to pass. No book in history has ever come close to the Bible when it comes to fulfillment of prophecy.
The prophecies in the Bible are very specific and accurate. Nostradamus claims to have made hundreds of prophecies that have come true, but if you read his prophecies, you will find them to be vague and unclear. His symbols and language can be taken to mean a number of historical events. Unlike many such prophecies, biblical prophecy is very specific.
Here are some examples. In Ezekiel 26, which was written in 587 B.C., Ezekiel prophesies that the mighty city of Tyre would be destroyed. Tyre was made up of two parts, a mainland port city and an island city half a mile off shore. Ezekiel predicted mainland Tyre would be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, many nations would fight against her, the debris of the city would be thrown into the ocean, the city would never be found again, and fishermen would come there to lay their nets.
In 573 B.C., Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city of Tyre. Many of the refugees of the city sailed to the island and the island city of Tyre remained a powerful city. In 333 B.C., however, Alexander the Great laid siege to Tyre. Using the rubble of mainland Tyre, he built a causeway to the island city of Tyre. He then captured and completely destroyed the city.
Today, Tyre is a small fishing town where fishing boats come to rest and fisherman spread their nets. The great ancient city of Tyre to this day lies buried in ruins exactly as prophesied. If we were to calculate the odds of this event happening by chance, the figures would be astronomical. No, it was not by coincidence.(7)
Here’s another example. There are over three hundred prophecies made of Jesus in the Old Testament. Prophecies such as His place of birth, how he would die, His rejection by the nation of Israel, and so on. All these prophecies were made hundreds of years before Jesus ever came to earth. Because of the accuracy of the prophecies, many skeptics have believed that they must have been written after 70 A.D.–after the birth and death of Jesus, and the destruction of Jerusalem. They have thereby tried to deny that they are even prophecies.
However, in 1947, the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. These scrolls contained the book of Isaiah and other prophetic books. When dated, they were found to be written from 120 to 100 B.C.,(8) well before Jesus was born. It would have been an incredible accomplishment for Jesus to have fulfilled all three hundred prophecies. Some say these prophecies were fulfilled by chance, but the odds for this would be exceptionally large. It would take more faith to believe in that chance happening than in the fact that Jesus is God and these prophecies are divinely inspired.(9)
No book can match the Bible when it comes to prophecy. Understand that I have only touched the tip of the iceberg. There are hundreds of additional proofs for the Bible, yet I have only mentioned a few. I hope this study has aroused your interest to further study the Word of God.
From my earlier post:
“Just stop and think a minute, what does it mean to “canonize” something? Isn’t that what they do to dead people who are deemed to be special, deify and make gods out of them when they die, exactly what the pagan Romans used to do? They canonize them. Truly, it ought to make us sick..”
All I know is I am deeply repentant for having equated the written word with God – when I realize that a pagan religious institution DEIFIED the scriptures (canonized them) it makes me sick at heart and very sorrowful for having been party to this horrible idolatry. Do we realize what we are doing when we talk about the “canon” of the bible??
Does that make me scripturally ignorant, or does it mean I no longer want to read the scriptures? Does it mean I am now going to turn to witchcraft and the occult (??). Of course not, it just means I now realize that His Word is living and active. I realize that I was saved by His living and active Word, not by reading the Bible. I now realize how many times the Lord has ministered powerfully by delivering His living and active Word apart from the Bible – He has chosen other vessels, other words, once even without any written or spoken words at all. All glory belongs to our Living God, and not to words on a page. Notice how it is written that all scripture is “useful” , seems like such a huge understatement for something that is purported to be equal to God – yes the scriptures are useful and we are blessed that they testify of our Lord, and teach us right from wrong – albeit a little imperfectly thanks to the meddling, down through the ages, of sinful man. Even one little word mistranslated, can change so much. But even so we are responsible ultimately for what we are willing to believe – it reflects our hearts.
It is Jesus who saves me, Jesus who delivers and ministers, and Jesus whom I follow. Yes, the bible is helpful to this end, but it isn’t Jesus.
Quote:
“It is Jesus who saves me, Jesus who delivers and ministers, and Jesus whom I follow. Yes, the bible is helpful to this end, but it isn’t Jesus” (“watchful” above)
I completely agree with this quote above “watchful”, the scriptures bear witness to Jesus but are not Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God:
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God… The Word became flesh and dwelt among us… full of grace and truth” (John 1)
The scripture is God’s testimony, “yardstick”, if you like for us to compare our experience of Jesus with to give us confidence that our experience of Jesus is “the real deal”.
Another “yardstick” to give us confidence that our experience of Jesus is “the real deal” is the peace of God “umpiring” or “ruling” in our hearts as the scriptures tell us.
Another “yardstick” to give us confidence that our experience of Jesus is “the real deal” is the fruit of the Holy Spirit being produced effortlessly out of our new hearts, if we see any of the fruit of the Holy Spirit being produced effortlessly out of our new hearts then we can start to have confidence and as this continues and develops and grows and expands until more and more and more of the fruit of the Spirit is being produced effortlessly out of our new hearts then we can be more and more and more confident that our experience of Jesus is “the real deal”.
Another “yardstick” to give us confidence that our experience of Jesus is “the real deal” is our hunger after Jesus, wanting Him to fill us and to live through us and to replace “us” with “Himself”. We want to be so filled with Jesus that we want “ourselves” to die and be forever more unknown, unseen and obliterated. I am not talking about our personalities I am talking about our “old selves” our “sinful natures”.
Another “yardstick” to give us confidence that our experience of Jesus is “the real deal” is the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truth and giving us “spiritual discernment” of the truth. The Holy Spirit wrote the scriptures and He will guide us into the scriptures to reveal Jesus to us.
Another “yardstick” which can give us confidence that our experience of Jesus is “the real deal” are the results of our personal encounters with Jesus. “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ”. If Jesus speaks to us directly and either uses the words of scripture or any other words which He knows our particular heart will understand and this irrevokably changes us and causes us part of our “old selves” to fall off and causes our “new self” to begin living in that area so that the fruit of the Spirit is produced in that area then that’s a pretty good indicator that our experience with Jesus is “the real deal”.
All these “yardsticks” are beared out, given solidity, in the scriptures.
The Lord has spoken to me using other words than scripture but then I’ve always had a sense of this pulling together all my other understanding from scripture and giving me the complete understanding.
The Lord repeatedly told my Mum when I had my depression experience, whispering it to her heart as she was on her knees in prayer during the 3 months when I thought I had lost my salvation, “Andrew is my precious child”. Every time I think of that it makes me cry, there is so much power in those words from the Lord to my mother and I praise Him for them.
The Lord has told me, “I have no expectation on you”, He has said, “Wanting anything that the Lord does not give me is covetousness”, He has said, “Wanting people to accept us is sin against God”, He has said, “Neither do I condemn you, your sins which are many have been forgiven you, go and sin no more” (which was straight from scripture), He told me that “Ricki-Lee and Alaina were always meant to be my daughters”, He told me that I could either choose to marry Nancy and experience revival or to follow my parents wishes and experience death, and He’s told me many other things also, down to the fine details of not wanting me to eat chocolate, teaching me what food is good for me to eat, etc.
All those personal words which the Lord has spoken to me have produced fruit in my life. I love Ricki-Lee and Alaina as if they were my own flesh and blood. When I was home last I went to visit Alaina as I hadn’t seen Vladimir for a while, he was nearly 4 at the time, and as soon as I saw him the Lord released such a love in my heart for him and we hugged and his little heart just received the love of the Lord through me as his Grandpa. That was a very precious experience which I’ll never forget.
What am I trying to say? We hear many voices, early on in my experience of hearing from the Lord and following the voice of the Spirit I got deceived quite often, I thought the Lord was telling me not to do this and that and pulling me this way and that way like a puppet on a string – my heart was sincere – then I realised that the voice wasn’t the voice of the Lord as it was coming with compulsion and fear, “Do this!”, “Do that!”, “Don’t do this!”, etc, and not love.
When the Lord speaks we are changed, we are broken, we are set free, we are made very aware that we have not been trusting Him but we are given an overwhelming desire to trust Him henceforth in that area which He has ministered to us in.
We do not diminish the scriptures but we must realise that “this is Eternal Life that they may know You the Only True God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent”
When Jesus reveals Himself to us whether it be directly or through the Scriptures or through another brother or sister or through creation or even though an angel (although for some reason I am very weary about people saying this is the way the Lord has revealed Himself to them) we have all the above “yardsticks” to measure these experiences by.
Ultimately the devil will never glorify the Father or Jesus, he may try to get us to glorify a false “holy spirit” – as we know that the Holy Spirit does not glorify Himself but gives glory to the Father and to Jesus – so if our hearts desire is to honour and glorify the Father and Jesus and to honour the Holy Spirit’s work in our hearts by giving glory to Jesus and the Father then we know we’re on the right track. Inside our hearts we know who the Father and Jesus are as the Holy Spirit has created that knowledge in our hearts.
I have to say again that the scripture is complete, what we have are the writings which the Lord wanted included in scripture, yes, some of the translations, etc, have taken away from the meanings of certain words, etc, but the Holy Spirit will give us understanding to know where to go to find the truth about these issues.
God in His Sovereignty has left himself a written testimony on earth in the scriptures and also has left a living testimony on earth through His working in the lives of His children and also left Himself an awesome testimony to His Sovereignty in creation as He sustains all things by the Word of His Power.
God bless you “watchful”… :-)
Amen, Andrew J – “My sheep know my voice.” And He speaks in many ways, through any vessel of His choosing, whether donkey, or rock, or any person, or through His creation, through a song, or even sometimes through the bible! :) What I observe, when I examine the fruit of idolatry of the bible, well, let’s just say it’s a bit prickly, often downright sour, and I observed it in myself first of all. Praise God He doesn’t treat us as our sins deserve, or we would all be reduced to specks of ashes floating around in outer space by now!
“New Man: Yes, but some of the language you use sounds a little like Universalism, the doctrine that all will be saved. How do you respond to that?
Young: Very simply. I’m not a Universalist. I’ve never said anything other than the road gets narrowed down to one man, that’s the person Jesus Christ. I’ve been very clear about that. And it’s very clear throughout the whole book, unless you want to find an agenda for Universalism in there.”
http://www.newmanmagazine.com/e-magazine/061208/index.php
Interesting work of plagiarism, Wayne.
leaderu. com/orgs/probe/docs/auth-bib.html
As a matter of fact, MOST of what you have stated on this site is copy-and-paste!
acts17-11. com/witchcraft.html
mystery-babylon. net/
bible. org/seriespage/17-destruction-ecclesiastical-babylon
Here’s another one.
libertytothecaptives. net/the_remnant_god_sent_delusion.html
pla·gia·rism –
the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one’s own original work.
It appears as though through omission you are attempting to lead us to believe these are your own words.
This is considered STEALING.
It has been very interesting and enlightening to read the 250 posts found here. Surely if the Spirit of God, the tree of life is to be found in us it will not be by the natural man. The Father has placed the cherubim to keep us from entering in by way of the flesh or the fleshly mind. The cherubim will allow us to create all the religion we want, some may even look good, but there will be no life in it…
Just my 2-cents worth…
THE CHERUBIM & THE SERAPHIM (To some this may make “The Shack” look good)
…On one hand the seraphim are igniting the heavens in blazing glory, while on the other, the cherubim are in the earth covering that glory: “Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the Garden of Eden Cherubim, and a flaming sword, which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life” (Gen 3:23-24).
…there are a number who picture the cherubim in some ethereal realm of heaven outside of themselves. However, let us consider that since the Garden of Eden (God’s Kingdom) and the Tree of Life (Jesus) is in each person, it only stands to reason that the cherubim are likewise within where they were placed east of Eden in the veil of our minds. This is the guard-post from where they have successfully kept the way of the Tree of Life since the dark night of man’s fall…
I would recommend the reading located at the link below (If after 7-8 pages you find it is just more Christian information or worse and not food to the very heart of you I would say take a pass on it. If anything has convinced me there is truth in the piece it is the evidence found in watching what has been displayed in many (not all) of these posts above…
God help us, (me first)
The title THE CHERUBIM & THE SERAPHIM by Elwin & Margit Roach
http://www.godfire.net/cherubim_seraphim1.html
(Part 1)
The Cherubim Of The Bible
The Cherubim Of The Jesus
The Cherubim Of The Gods
http://www.godfire.net/cherubim_seraphim1.html