CAN PATRIOTISM be IDOLATRY? – Andrew Strom
I would really love your comments on this, as I believe it is an important topic for the church in North America. Please give us your thoughts on the questions below-
-Can Patriotism be Idolatry? (ie. Can our country become a kind
of ‘god’ to us?)
-Can Patriotism also become “prideful”?
-Is this a problem in the church today?
-Will many Christians get mad if we question this?
-If we mix Patriotism in with Christianity, will it start to distort the
whole message and mission of the church?
-In other words, will we start to become “activists” not just for
Jesus, but for Patriotism too?
-Is it true that Hitler used Patriotism to manipulate the German
people – and whip them up to go to war?
-Are there voices in TV and Radio today using Patriotism to whip
up the Christians?
-Do you think we can be easily manipulated if they appeal to our
Patriotism?
-Now just a couple of questions about the USA-
-Is the US still a force for “righteousness” in the earth?
-When we look at the movies, the TV and the music put out by
the USA – which dominates Western culture all around the world -
what kind of influence does the US have today?
-When we look at this massive influence and leadership, does
she seem to be a force for ‘light’ or more for greed, sex, materialism
and spiritual corruption?
-So is America mostly spreading ‘good’ or spreading ‘evil’ in the world?
-Why then should we “defend” her – as though what she is doing in
the earth is “Christian”?
I realize that these questions will make some people mad. But I am
hoping that we will really think about these things and I would love
to hear your opinions. Please post your comments below-
Answer to “Can Patriotism Be Idolatry?”:
Big “Yes”
America:
Big country
Big world influence
Big idolatry
Big fall
Quote:
Can Patriotism be Idolatry? (ie. Can our country become a kind
of ‘god’ to us?)
-Can Patriotism also become “prideful”?
-Is this a problem in the church today?
-Will many Christians get mad if we question this?
end quote:
YES, YES, YES!
Andrew, your right on, thank you for this post …. people will get mad, Its okay….
Sadly, mad and angry for the wrong reasons. There are many whom worship Amercia and the flag. Your right it is idolized. I know people will get angry when I say this, as well. The Holy Spirit within me, will not allow me to lift up my hands or pray concerning/America… However I can pray for the state of the hearts, in America.
Its not the State or Amercia He is coming for. Or any other state for that matter. HOWEVER, The Lord, looks to the state of the hearts and the condition of men and women and it will be His people, the sheep of His pasture in the world that He comes for.
Seriously, how can anyone defend something that is unholy and profane?
You pointed out some very good thoughts here and heartfelt questions to seriously ponder, where are the people hearts at and for? This world or fixing their eyes on the one whom TRULY came to give them life and life more abundantly, so that we may live eternally hereafter with God the Father, The Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
One more thought and a person whom I will not name on the tv news is the people shall stand when all else falls…this man is talking about standing in the flesh, and yes patriotism….this is not what the Lord called His people too….
This country is falling, is falling. We are relying on man to overcome failures when it was man that made them. America has shunned the ways of God, who are we to turn our backs on Him. Our government can not bring peace nor will it ever. Patriotism is self-idolizing. We stand on human era, when we should be relying on God to guide us.
The world is flesh.
yes
we drove many miles to hear Glenn Beck and after long waiting time I heard very clearly “this is worship of man”
we got back in car and left.
WE worship the one true God and the usa is not it.
Don and Sandy Eubank
Yes, Andrew, you are right. I’ve been wondering about this alot lately. Yes, God did bless this country as she was birthed and as she leaned on Him through the hard times. But through the years America has become prideful, idolatrous, greedy, materialistic, and sinful and has spread that influence around the world. In so many ways, America has turned her back on God. And the church in America has not always been the salt and light the Lord intended that we be.
I agree with Sheepkinz that we should not be prideful about America or idolalize the flag, if that’s what being a Patriot means. Several years ago, the Holy Spirit whispered to me that we should say that we as believers pledge allegiance to Jesus Christ, and to the kingdom for which He stands.
It is about the hearts & souls of individuals. If enough hearts and souls turn back to the absolute truths of Scripture and get over fear of offending people (political correctness), there may be a great awakening in America – if not, great will be her fall. Personally, I believe the Lord has already showed my husband and I it will take devastation to get her full attention & get people out of complacency and compromise.
I would have to agree it can be, however.
What we have now is an evil Global empire being setup. I believe it is the duty of Christians to stand against that with every fiber in there being. We are not standing up for the materialism to continue in America, but for the rights and freedoms given by God to each person. Once America falls, the NWO will be able to continue having a major victory. The people of America have been systematically destroyed through Food, Culture, Television, Fluoride and Education.
The American people must stand now for the principles of Freedom that God has given freely lest the NWO rise and more destruction of humanity through HAARP, Global Wars, Financial Tyranny and so much more Satan has lined up will reign.
It is not our “duty” to sit down and wait for Jesus I do not believe, we wait and watch, and when we see Evil we fight against it until he arrives.
Yes to all the first questions.
To the questions about America I’d say (as someone living OUTSIDE of the country) that people generally can’t even understand how so much evil and filth can come out of a so-called Christian nation.
The fact is of course, that it can’t because you know them by their fruits, Jesus said.
The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God.
I’m sorry but it is my opinion that revival will not happen. 911 didn’t do it; what do you think will?
In answer to DJNeve, I believe we need a Great Reformation – and not just a Revival.
And by the way – great to hear from you, Mr DJNeve!!
My family misses you guys!
Patiotism has become idolatry. This country has turned it’s collective back on God and it started some 100 years ago. Sure I was born in the USA but I am a citizen of the Kingdom of God. In lieu of praying for the nation I pray that the people of this nation to wake up and begin to have ears that hear and eyes that see. Some will, most will not.
Absolutely!… I feel badly at times, especially when I see those in the forces feeling as though they are doing Americans a service However, the values we have as Americans are so alarming to me. Our government is very corrupt. I feel everything is done by manipulation, especially in the government, and so much is hidden from us. Especially motives of why things are done, example the war. Our country once stood for values but now there’s corruption in all levels. We were once a country of freedom but now were becoming slaves and most don’t even see it.
TV is so corrupt. Were being programmed like our tv’s to accept values that are very distorted. Were also being desensitized to sin.. What alarmed us before doesn’t now, and that is very alarming in itself… Sin is sin. The lord does not want us to watch evil but were drawn to it..
So my patriotism is dwindling. However, for those who won’t acknowlege that the values once held by America is no longer there, can worship a country that is now founded on evil and corruption.
Sadly this strikes a chord.
Love of country – patriotism
Conceitedness – is Nationalism
In one way its natural to feel pride for ones country acheivements. But just like an individual who may be very talented….the gifts they have can become a stumbling block to knowing Giod. Christian need to be careful. Is patriotism idolatry? it will be if this replaces Gods rightful place in our lives, in our words, in our attitudes, and i n our actions. Idolators forfeit the grace that might be theirs…this is the scary part. We only have to look at history to see how things like this work out.
-Can Patriotism be Idolatry? (ie. Can our country become a kind
of ‘god’ to us?) YES
-Can Patriotism also become “prideful”? ABSOLUTELY
-Is this a problem in the church today? ESPECIALLY WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY
-Will many Christians get mad if we question this? ABSOLUTELY
-If we mix Patriotism in with Christianity, will it start to distort the
whole message and mission of the church? ABSOLUTELY
-In other words, will we start to become “activists” not just for
Jesus, but for Patriotism too? ABSOLUTELY
-Is it true that Hitler used Patriotism to manipulate the German
people – and whip them up to go to war? YES
-Are there voices in TV and Radio today using Patriotism to whip
up the Christians? ABSOLUTELY
-Do you think we can be easily manipulated if they appeal to our
Patriotic Pride? YES
-Now just a couple of questions about the USA-
-Is the US still a force for “righteousness” in the earth? FALSE RIGHTEOUSNESS
-When we look at the movies, the TV and the music put out by
the USA – which dominates Western culture all around the world -
what kind of influence does the US have today? OTHER CULTURES EMULATE THE U.S. CULTURE
-When we look at this massive influence and leadership, does
she seem to be a force for ‘light’ or more for greed, sex, materialism
and spiritual corruption? MOST DEFINITELY THE LATTER!
-So is America mostly spreading ‘good’ or spreading ‘evil’ in the world? EVIL
-Why then should we “defend” her – as though what she is doing in
the earth is “Christian”? WE AS TRUE BELIEVERS ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT DEFEND ANY ANTI-SCRIPTURAL AND ANTI GOD BEHAVIOR NO MATTER WHO IS DOING IT, MOST ESPECIALLY THE U.S., BECAUSE WE ARE SUPPOSED TO KNOW THE TRUTH
YHWH SAID WE WOULD BE HATED BY ALL NATIONS FOR HIS SAKE, SO MY ???? WOULD BE, HOW CAN ONE BE YOKED WITH ANY NATION, FOR THEY ARE ALL ANTI-CHRIST IN THERE SYSTEMS OF OPERATION.
HOW CAN TWO WALK TOGETHER LEST THEY AGREE, THERE IS NO ONE WHO IF HONEST COULD SAY, THAT YHWH IS IN AGREEMENT WITH ANYTHING THIS NATION IS DOING.
DANIEL 4; 17 (B)
to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, AND SETTETH UP OVER IT THE BASEST OF MEN.
WE WHO ARE MEMBERS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, ARE PRIESTS AND KINGS UNTO HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND WE ARE A HOLY NATION, AND HE IS OUR RULER AND KING AND MASTER, AND WE ARE GOVERNED BY HIM, NOT BY FLESHLY KINGS
It’s About Time! Hooray for this Posting!
I was minding my own business one day and the Lord interrupted my thoughts with the following statement; “Strike hands suddenly with no man, and be not a partaker in their sins.” As I pondered that statement, another, single word came to me; “Ambassador”.
A moment later came the revelation of what these things meant and a whole new direction became crystal clear to me. Amazing, that when the Lord gives you something it’s automatically becomes a part of you, a living and finished work, not susceptible to being changed by the opinions of others or even arguable. But I will share it. An ambassador, as we know, is someone that is living in one country, but representing another. Let’s make it more real by using real countries; let’s say France and the USA.
The French Ambassador represents France and whatever the French government is and stands for. He is governed by the laws of France, and answers to French authority; but he lives in the USA. He might love the USA, but he is not a citizen. He might involve himself in political views of the USA, and speak his concerns; but he is still not a citizen.
His allegiance, is to France. As Christians, we represent The Kingdom of God. In everything we do and say, we are supposed to represent God’s ways, His precepts, His authority and His Word. We live in whatever country we live in, as ambassadors. But whatever country we live in; we are still citizens of one country… and it is God’s kingdom. Our country laws (scripture) tells us to obey earthly magistrates and rulers, so we do; even as Daniel did until they violated HIS kingdoms rules concerning worshipping of anyone other than the God of Israel. At that time he of course could not comply and was thrown into a den of Lions. I now take this ambassadorship very seriously.
Let me shift, momentarily, to the first statement the Lord gave me; “Strike hands suddenly with no man, and be not a partaker in their sins.” “Striking hands (a handshake) is the symbol of agreement, of unity in a matter (hence; let’s ‘shake’ on it). In days before the advent of ‘signed contracts’ a handshake was all it took to validate something.
Take the second part of that statement “and be not a partaker in their sins. If you are in a car with a group of people and the car pulls over and some get out of the car and rob a bank… you are guilty of the same crime, even if you stayed in the car. You will be imprisoned just like they are. Because you’re a part of it. When you vote for a politician and he does evil, casts his votes for legislation that is contrary to God’s word, then whether you like it or not YOU helped put him there… and YOU are a partaker of HIS sins. YOU are guilty. We are raised thinking we are unpatriotic if we don’t vote… but we give up our citizenship when we are born again and this time into the Kingdom Of God.
We do not have dual citizenship. Ambassadors might love the country they reside in, but they (we) are not citizens of that country. So, as an ambassador, which I now take seriously, I do not vote. I will not strike hands with politicians and be a partaker of their sins by voting for them, especially since I am not a citizen of their country anyway!
No man can serve two masters. Can we pledge allegiance to the country of our residence AND to the Kingdom of God? I think not. Especially when the country of residence is in violation of God’s Word. We have no choice. Can we pledge allegiance ‘to the flag’?
If we do, we are hypocrites and liars, while claiming to be allegiant only Jesus Christ as our Lord. When it comes time, in some assemblies, to pledge allegiance ‘to the flag’ I say; “I pledge allegiance to Jesus Christ, and to the Kingdom over which He reigns! One nation, who’s Lord is God…”
I’m sure some will think of the saying “evil flourishes when good men do nothing.”
But this quote is man’s; not Gods. Voting doesn’t make a nation blessed by God; and a countrys laws won’t make them blessed either. But God blesses a nation, and will ‘heal’ their land, when his people repent and return to His ways.
I do not expect others to believe this way. This is personal, and came by revelation. I am sure it will only come by revelation to others as well. Personally, I think Sarah Palin would be the best person in the white house; she’s a Christian. I have no condemnation to speak of for her ‘as a Christian running for office’ since she has not had this revelation yet. Most don’t. Not long after this revelation I found myself in an Amish section of the USA. The Amish are known for their devotion to God. I walked up to one man and just blurted out… “you don’t vote, do you?” “No”, the man said. We both smiled and parted.
YES!
I’ve come to learn that you can only be a citizen of one kingdom. Much like the Israelites in Babylon, I am “resident” of the USA but a citizen of the Kingdom of God. I consider myself like a resident alien. As a result, I do not vote, nor do I complain about what those in office do. Christians in America have confused patriotism with Christianity for far too long. I believe it is a deception of the enemy.
Just where did God say that democracy is His preferred form of government. After all, God invented governments around the world for one reason only – to keep order and to keep man from destroying himself. God tells us to pray for our leaders (which I do), but never to go out and try to get “your guy” elected.
Many so called Christians in America are like the Jews during the time of Jesus. They are looking for a political messiah to free them from those they view as oppressing them. As a result they will Jesus altogether.
Ooops. In the last sentence, I meant to say “As a result they will miss Jesus altogether.”
Sadly, the USA is the foremost exporter of moral filth to the world. Not only are the “Hollywoods” and many rock bands, etc., of the USA doing this, but the judiciary is also enforcing its humanism on other countries – whether intentional or not is irrelevant.
Following are brief excerpts from the message I shared on our recent “Independence Day,” July 4, 2010. And yes, I am an American.
“God’s favorite colors are not Red, White and Blue. Scripture is given to the whole world and to the entire Body of Christ. ‘ . . . God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.”’”
“. . . on July 4 every year in America, faith is co-mingled with patriotism. The flags of the Cross and of America coalesce, and in the convergence of the two, a vital truth can be lost.
“Because Scripture was given to all men, everywhere, we must view the Bible not as a nationalistic book, but as a universal book. Indeed, scripture is not even primarily a book about the nation, Israel.”
” . . . followers of Christ are called to walk as citizens of two worlds; as citizens of nations, we bear responsibility to be actively engaged in the duties of all citizens. At the same time, we give first and full allegiance to God and to His kingdom. We are not primarily Americans or Germans or Japanese: In this earth, we walk as salt and light; as witnesses for Jesus and as ambassadors of Christ from a ‘far country.’”
“Wherever we live, wherever we may have been born and raised, in whatever land, under whatever governmental structure, by whatever language we speak; as followers of Christ we are divinely and strategically placed to affect and to change the world around us. Truly, we have been called to the kingdom, and to the land of our dwelling, ‘for such a time as this.’”
“Our salvation, our hope, regardless of our geography is not in man nor is it in man’s institutions; our salvation, our hope is in Christ, and in Him alone.”
Regarding the question of the U.S. being a force for righteousness in the earth and the influence of America in the world, I think we must separate “U.S.” from the Body of Christ in the U.S. Indeed, American Christians continue to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, minister to the world, send missionaries, etc., but the U.S. as an entity can no more be considered to be “Christian” or a force for righteousness than can any nation. Sadly, most non-Americans view the production of U.S. media as “the” voice and position of America.
Non-Americans often reckon the U.S. to be accurately represented by “Bush” or “Obama” or whoever happens to currently be the visual Representation and the audible Voice of the nation. In truth, there are many in America “who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.”
YES! How well I know!
As a former military wife, I was very patriotic; house decorated in Americana, everything. It took the Lord to show me what I was really “worshiping” It’s not God and Country…it’s God PERIOD!
Like stated, I am a resident of the U.S. but I am a citizen of Heaven. I can not pledge allegiance to anyone or anything but the LORD ALONE ….and that includes the American Flag.
LoriT
Because I’m not an American, I can’t really know in how far patriotism can go.
But what I understand in an idol, is something that gives you more joy than your God. If you’re more willing to die for your country than to live for your God, it certainly is idolatry…
But what can’t be idolatry?
Dear brothers and sisters, we have really nothing to lose on this place because we truly have nothing on this place. This isn’t home…
Aren’t we ought to be citizens of heaven? And aren’t we ought to worship ONE ruler alone which is our almighty God in heaven?
When Israel asked for a king, God gave them one, but Israel forgot that they already had a king which was way more higher and powerful than this human king.
Where is your kingdom? Heaven or earth?
Who is your king?
Maybe my mouth speaks strong words at this moment, and I have many things to repent from. But there’s only one king, Lord and saviour I should cling on, whom we call Jesus Christ…
Blessings in Christ
Sarah
Ok, I am going to really go the opposite of what little I have read on here. Although Patriotism can lead to idoltry so can many other things. I have to say I am a Patriot. I love the Lord first and foremost. But like Moses and Jeremiah I am passionate about what God has called me to. You see, I am one of those on the wall of the city (or in this instance country). I have been called to intercede for this great country. In that process I have been given the mantle to pray for our government, our leadership, our churches, the lost, the broken, the abused, the future of this country as well as right now and above all praying for revival.
Somehow it is considered wrong to vote? Wrong to get involved in politics? Look at the Old Testement folks. Even Daniel held a high place in a foreign land and yet held his intregrity. Was he patriotic for Isreal, I believe so. He never stopped praying for her or her people. It’s a matter of seeing where God has you.
I know that it is my responsiblitily to make sure we are as free as possible for the last. God has chosen to operate through the vehicle of prayer to make His purpose and plan known to all. As Patriotic as I am I am also aware that we are headed for judgement. I pray for our fmen and women on foreign soil as well as staying a freind of Isreal. Although we know the end times are surely coming none of us know to what extent we are invovled in the shaping of Christ’s coming and the protection of Isreal. We are to keep praying. We are to keep standing for those things that God has called us to. If it is to fight abortion or corruption in the government we are to fight.
In all of this we can and should know WE were given this land to guard and protect it as well as bring His Kingdom to all who will listen. So, don’t count yourself out of being someone that is patriotic to America. You are not splitting your loyalty at all. Check out Moses and Joseph and those that had great loyalty for their countries yet were able to leave when it was time.
Yes it can! Anything we place ahead of Christ in our lives becomes an idol. This may be a nation, state, province, denomination, theological viewpoint, or materialistic things. There are many things taking place in society today that manipulate those listening without thinking, and sadly, many like to be led rather than think and reason for themselves. Much today is idolatry, and most don’t know it. Jesus Christ must be first in every area of our lives. Whatever, or whoever, we place first becomes an idol, a god. There is only One True God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The simple answer is Yes. But, …
Anything can become an idol to an individual, even a stone church.
The United States is a 400-year experiment in Christian living, that got rid of the State Church in 1776. That’s why it has always been exceptional, a statistical outlier in what is now known as the Post-Chrstian West. The U.S. is not post-Christian yet. Polls show that 84% of the population still professes Christianity. So, if patriotism is the love of country and the country is Christian, it is not an idol, per se. Only some individuals might see it that way.
Yes, I agree with most of the posters. Everything is so corrupt in this country and I don’t see repentance coming to the majority. God is using the three branches of government as a vessel of dishonor to get the people to repent.
I can only see that it has to get much worse before that happens though. My own elderly “christian” parents (ages 90 and 86) just refuse to believe that the government is evil beyond their comprehension. No one could be that evil they assume. I have given up to try and get them to see the light. I have nothing else to offer other than prayer for them. I keep hoping that I’m right that God hasn’t kept them alive this long to let them be lost in the end. I just keep praying for them, friends and family who want to wave the flag of patriotism.
On top of the corrupt government He will be using natural disasters in increasing frequency to bring about repentance.
Patriotism is a idol.
Yes, of course ‘patriotism’ can be idolatry. Anything we hold in higher regard and allegiance than Jesus (and strict obedience to Him) is idolatry. It’s not to say we shouldn’t be good citizens and do what is practical and right; but that should always be done as we follow Jesus. Jesus didn’t say that to be His disciple we must first be patriotic to the country we live in, then as we have time deny ourselves, take our cross and follow Him. Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness!
Our allegiance i.e. our hope, security, substance is always in God; not in a country or flag. That doesn’t mean we can’t respect the country and flag and we should be good citizens, as Paul tells us in Romans 13.
Look at Jeremiah. He told the citizens of Jerusalem, as they were being sieged by Nebecanezzer (sp?), to turn themselves over to the Babylonians, as this was from God. Jeremiah was considered a traitor by the false prophets, the king and many of the citizens. I’m sure Jeremiah loved Israel and Jerusalem, but he loved God more, even though he persecuted almost to death.
Also, what about the Christians in China, Indonesia and other countries where they are the enemies of the state and frequently tortured and killed? We don’t usually say to those Christian to be patriotic and hold allegiance to your government and flag, do we? What’s the difference?
I consider myself an American. However, the Lord has shown me that in my patriotic zeal of the past (which still flares up occasionally) that I was trusting in man and therefore fretting when things did not go the way I thought they should or when leaders did evil things. The Lord showed me my patriotic zeal was an idol that was separating me from God because I was basically saying by my actions that God was not in control of the situation in America. That Obama snuck under the radar and his election took God by surprise and that I had to do what I could to change things. I basically insulted the King of the Universe by fretting about the machinations of pitiful man, as if God was clueless and needed my help because He obviously didn’t have a handle on the situation.
Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. Deny yourself, take up your instrument of death (your cross) and follow the King. He is our Hope, Security, Comfort, Sustance, Protection, Provider, Healer,……….! Be in the ‘American’ world but no of the ‘American’ world.
Amen!
The lines between the Body of Christ and the government have been blurred for many years here in America. There are a lot of reasons, but I think it is chiefly a matter of convenience for Christians. What do I mean by that?
Christians insist that we be governed through moral laws that reflect our beliefs. If the government says that abortion is illegal, then I do not have to deal with the spiritual issues surrounding the question. Also, I feel so much better that babies are going full term, and I no longer have any responsibility there. Apply that to any issue, and we really want to be safe and secure in our beliefs, and the government will keep us there.
But when the government opposes us, say with abortion, we decry the loss of our Christian “heritage”, but still do not deal with the issue. It is now a government failure, and we just need to get the right people into office.
There is no promise that we will be safe and secure, that no cost will be added to us, that the world will willingly accept us. On the contrary, we will be reviled and mocked and persecuted, just not in America, the “Christian” nation. And so patriotism becomes a new idol, and many believers set their efforts in the political. realm.
What is said about teh enemy? He doesn’t necessarily care if we follow him, just so long as we don’t follow Jesus.
In my church, we honor our military and country every memorial day, labor day and 4th of july. I protest, especially when memorial day is also Pentecost, but the patriotism is becoming systemic.
In America, and some other nations, we have the ability to influence and choose our leaders. But it is our Father who sets the rulers over us, and we get the ones we deserve, and the ones who will serve His greater purpose. I don’t think that purpose is always my comfort and satisfaction.
CAN PATRIOTISM be IDOLATRY?
-Andrew Strom.
I would really love your comments on this, as I believe it is an
important topic for the church in North America. Please give us
your thoughts on the questions below-
-Can Patriotism be Idolatry? (ie. Can our country become a kind
of ‘god’ to us?) YES
-Can Patriotism also become “prideful”? YES
-Is this a problem in the church today? More in the USA, but in Canada too
-Will many Christians get mad if we question this? YES
-If we mix Patriotism in with Christianity, will it start to distort the
whole message and mission of the church? YES
-In other words, will we start to become “activists” not just for
Jesus, but for Patriotism too? Yes we must always strive to be humble.
-Is it true that Hitler used Patriotism to manipulate the German
people – and whip them up to go to war? Most definitely, we also have been deceived to go do war under false pretenses.
-Are there voices in TV and Radio today using Patriotism to whip
up the Christians? YES!!! Look at the Bush campaign
-Do you think we can be easily manipulated if they appeal to our
Patriotic Pride? YES!
-Now just a couple of questions about the USA-
-Is the US still a force for “righteousness” in the earth? It hasn’t been for very long time , The American people at heart wish to be, But the government has no desire for righteousness only self serving.
-When we look at the movies, the TV and the music put out by
the USA – which dominates Western culture all around the world -
what kind of influence does the US have today? Its main objective is to convert people to the mind set of self serving idolatry
-When we look at this massive influence and leadership, does
she seem to be a force for ‘light’ or more for greed, sex, materialism
and spiritual corruption? For DEATH!at every level
-So is America mostly spreading ‘good’ or spreading ‘evil’ in the world? Evil
-Why then should we “defend” her – as though what she is doing in
the earth is “Christian”? We should not. We as a nation are super deceived
Yes this country is heading into full blown communism. Is it wrong to stand up for the basic principles that this nation was founded on. No. Was our constitution and form of government formed on biblical truths such as individual responsibility, property rights, the right to protect your family, the right to enjoy the fruits of your labor, the right to choose who and when to show charity, natural laws all? Yes. Are we to lay down in silence as the forces of evil work frantically to destroy this nation? No. Is our number one weapon the voting booth? No. It is our spiritual weapons not negating the voting booth.
If the ‘church’ were to re-invent itself according to N.T. guidelines, we’d have greater power at our disposal for reaching souls which would in turn change the face of the electorate. Not negating the end time scenario, but at least bringing the ‘body’ to some kind of maturity, a true force to be reckoned with.
Hello Andrew,
Yes, of course, anything can become an idol if it is placed above our love and obedience to the LORD
I am an Englishman born here, bred here and still living here and have a great regard for the history of this once great nation, however, when I surrendered my life to the Lord Jesus Christ, I joined the innumerable company of saints who make up the “holy nation” that Peter speaks of in 1 Peter 2 :9. therefore I subject myself to the rule of this country, only insofar as it does not cause me to disobey the Word of God.
It seems to me, that there is only one Country on the Earth that God has referred to in Scripture, as His and that is neither America or the UK – but Israel
I believe the problem is American Christians have become confused in our love of God and country, mixing them up to mean the same thing. We have been so blessed to live in freedom here, men giving their lives for our privilege of freedom, love of country is a natural outgrowth of this, but it should not be confused with our love of God. We should focus all of our attention on our love of God and thank Him for the blessing of living in freedom, while looking forward to His Kingdom being established. When our country’s leaders at least showed a pretense of honoring God, it was one thing. But now that even the pretense is gone, all believers should with great zeal and anticipation, ask God to come quickly and establish His kingdom on this earth. I for one am sick of the corruption.
YES AND THESE PREDICTIVE PROPHECIES WARN ABOUT IT:
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See the following 2005 prophecy which identified this;
(prophecy No C46 at http://www.propheciesfortoday.uk.com).
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This prophecy states that there are, quote, “Three weaknesses in the U.S. church… First God showed me a picture of a white flag. This symbolised the appearance of righteousness but with compromise and no real deep inner holiness… The second weakness was nationalism: I saw that many Christians in the U.S were influenced, in the wrong way, by nationalism. Whilst as Christians we are responsible to pray for our nations we are nonetheless citizens of heaven and owe our allegiance to Jesus not to any carnal earthly dominium. I saw that such nationalism could compromise a Christian’s faith in Christ… Thirdly I saw that the Church in the U.S.A. was particularly open to deception… and very vulnerable in this area.” 2005.
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I also saw some TV footage once in which George Bush was singing along to a song which referred to the USA as “the lamb of God”. I kid you not. All sorts of false doctrines will proliferate along these lines as we enter the end times. However these will not be based around the USA alone but western civilisation generally – so this will also include Satan’s power base in Western Europe – the New Age influenced E.U.
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There is also a predictive prophecy concerning this on the same site. This states that a complete system of false doctrines will develop over time based around false interpretations of the Books of Revelation and Daniel. These will put western civilisation in place of “the Thousand Year Reign of Christ,” “the rider on a white horse,” and even “the Lamb who was slain,” the full word can be seen at the top of the page of “Latest words” at http://www.propheciesfortoday.uk.com, prophecy No A58.
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I think we could be entering these times of false doctrine based on nationalism and idolatry pretty soon.
Amen, David!!!!! You said it so well.
Great Topic of Discussion. You’re right-it does get the Christian “patriotic” types worked up.
I remember even as a kid being forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance kind of rolling my eyes as to why I had to do this every morning before school started. Even at a young age I was thinking “What are they trying to do? Brainwash me?!” Perhaps it was a rebellious spirit I really can’t say.
Personally, my disposition doesn’t lend it’s self to Patriotism idolatry. Other forms of idolatry? – yes – just not this one.
Our brothers & sisters in Christ live on this earth worldwide. I happened to be born in America & appreciate the structure of how the Governing body was supposed to be set up & ruled by the people of the United States.
But- as with all the kingdoms of this world – they are spiritually ruled by Satan- with a little discernment it’s obvious this doesn’t exclude the U.S. With just a little bit of research into what was/is going on behind the scenes of the Govt.- the idealism of a utopian democracy comes crashing down. The forces of darkness had their hands on the U.S. from the very beginning.
So I agree that the Media/Propaganda is currently trying to draw the Christians into a revolutionary spirit against the progressive worldview of the current administration. But the ironic part to that is no matter which way you go- all those in the “system” are bent on achieving the goal of the “New World Order” – Anti-Christ system.
So far I still vote but @ the rate things are going I could see there may come a time I decide there’s nothing left to support which would hold back what’s being put in place for the NWO.
The Entertainment/Hollywood machine is also controlled by Satan- no surprise there either. It’s just that the U.S. leads this industry & spreads the filth around.
I’m just sick of the whole thing & can’t wait for Christ to come & rule w/a rod of iron. That’s what I’m looking forward to. Meanwhile, we need to be available to be used by the Lord & lead as many people out of Satan’s domain & with us as we can.
Revelation 13:10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
YES. I agree with so many people’s opinions on this topic.
I live in a GUNG-HO region of the country-surrounded by 5 military bases and believe me the patriotic spirit is totally entwined within the Christian faith. To most of them God’s army IS the U.S. military.
IMHO: the TRUTH does not set these people free, but going to war and winning does. Patriotism = Pride = Fall. Patriotism is merchandised and has become a tangible thing to be protected, honored, and worshipped.
I agree with Andrew that America does need a Great Reformation and I pray that it happens yesterday and that I am wrong to think that we are past all that and have decended into a Holy Judgment that will render this country impotent. I am impressed with the story of Jeremiah – he went into captivity with his beloved people and (I believe) so shall the remnant that remains in this country. We will have our Great Reformation in captivity. We will be absorbed into a larger grouping and become as one of the horns referenced in the Book of Revelation. Many Christian leaders are calling for defensive tactics and even some are calling for spiritual war – rise against – but very, very few are preaching REPENTANCE – the people don’t want to repent, sacrifice, or reform. That would mean laying down the sword and being humbled in the Army of the Lord. Patriotism and Pride have no part in a Great Reformation.
And that’s just MHO – thanks for providing a place to share it.
Patriotism…………YES!
many christians believe it is our God given right to be an American, that our country was founded under God, and that we should be patriots of our constitution.
Our only God given right is to follow Jesus!
We already know what the out come of all this is (read the last chapter of the bible) So, let’s stop upholding our Idols and lift up Jesus!!
The USA is absolutely a ‘god’ to many, including professing ‘Christians.’ This is underscored by the false end-time paradigm that names the USA a ‘sheep’ nation and allies it’s fate with Israel. The USA, according to these teachers, is on God’s side and therefore God is beholden to the USA to take care of it. Does it make them angry when you correct their erroneous assumption? You bet.
“Patriotism” is not Scriptural. We are to be ‘in’ this world’ but not ‘of’ it. We are NOT ‘American’ or ‘British’ or allied with ANY country except as we live in them. We are – first and foremost – citizens of New Jerusalem. This is not to say we cannot defend our home or the country in which we live. But no country supercedes our heavenly home.
Jesus avoided politics. He refused to take sides. He said ‘render unto Caesar the things that are Caeser’s and unto God the things that are God’s.’ We are to pray for those in authority and obey the laws of the land as long as they are not in conflict with the commands of God.
Only the Biblical nation of Israel was established by God. All others are secular constructs. Daniel and Joseph served their foreign masters loyally but Daniel remained God’s man and Joseph insisted his bones go with Israel when they left Egypt. Their allegiance was not to ‘national’ Israel but to God and God’s people.
There is a great deal of talk in conservative circles about the USA being a ‘Christian’ nation. This is a fallacy. Most of the founders of this nation were nominally ‘Christian’ in the sense that they read the Bible, went to church and aligned themselves with the morals of Scripture, at least outwardly. FOR EXAMPLE: Thomas Jefferson was a Deist and considered Christianity bigoted and narrow – Benjamin Franklin had an illegitimate son and was a member of the ‘Hellfire Club’ (a noblemen’s group dedicated to all types of sinful and licentious behavior) while in England. George Washington, despite the assertions of some ‘Conservative Christian’ leaders did NOT mention sin, Jesus Christ or Heaven in his last will and Testament. In fact he avoided using the name of Jesus and rarely spoke of religion in any but the most broad sense. It was the founding fathers who insisted on ‘tolerance’ and ‘freedom of religion’ – not, as some say, to insure the freedom of Christians to worship as they pleased (as that was already the case), but indeed to insure ANY religion free practice.
This idea of the USA as ‘Christian’ is used to manipulate those who claim to be ‘Christian’ to support their ‘Christian’ nation and try to influence the world through political activism and legislation instead of through the Gospel.
It is no wonder that so many American ‘Christians’ support Big Business – they have the same goals – have plenty of money so I have what I want. That’s the ‘Prosperity Gospel’ in a nutshell. It is the same mentality that sends money to an impersonal ‘charity’ so they feel good about themselves while their next door neighbor is out of work and has no food, transportation or utilities and they call the cops or the welfare on them.
Their idea of the fulfillment of the Great Commission’ is to collect money to buy TV stations – and incidentally to pay them salaries to support them in the style to which they consider themselves entitled. They ‘go and preach’ like they do their works of charity – from the comfort of their homes with check or credit card. They don’t have to get their hands dirty actually touching the poor, needy, naked and lost.
IS pride a problem? Oh, yes, absolutely. The arrogance of western man – especially in the USA – is enormous. The response of the believers in Haiti to the earthquake was to pray – while the Americans came running with money and ‘help’ – like taking children from the country illegally. It didn’t look to me like they needed our spiritual input at all. It has long been the practice of western missionaries to teach new believers in foreign lands to behave as western people, mimicking western manners, customs and modes of dress.
I cringe when I hear ‘preachers’ talk about Peter being an ‘ignorant fisherman’ or Abraham being a ‘primitive pagan’ – both of which are direct quotes from TBN preachers. There is a prevailing mentality that America and American ‘Christians’ are somehow superior to those elsewhere. Listen to them talking about how America is responsible to ‘preach the Gospel to the world’ – when the majority of American ‘Christians’ have no real concept of the Gospel themselves.
The problem is not just that the ‘Christians’ in America don’t have a clue – the biggest problem is that many of the professing ‘Christians’ in America are not even truly saved. They are ‘Christians’ only in the sense that they go to church or, as a missionary once put it, they think “Well, I ain’t no Buddhist, so I must be Christian.”
According to a 2009 Barna poll, many professing ‘Christians’ in American do not believe that Scripture is the inerrant WORD of God. They feel free to pick and choose what they do or do not believe or practice from Scripture. Preachers like Joel Osteen and Rick Warren undergird this belief with their heresy that teaches ‘comfortable’ Christianity instead of Biblical Christianity.
This applies also to the spread of the ‘Kundalini’ spirits. The leadership that supports and spreads these things is full of pride and arrogance – just look at their ‘prophetic proclamations’ about themselves. Those like many of us, who are not as ‘special’ as they and their followers are beneath contempt and beneath their notice. The ‘prophetic movement’ are the MANCHILD, the ELIJAH COMPANY, the special ones chosen by God and consider themselves superior to the OT prophets like Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah.
The influence of the USA is bad. Not only the secular music, films and print media, but the supposed ‘Christian’ stuff as well. All manner of heresy flourishes in the good ol’ USA. This is the birthplace of some of the most successful cults in history.The ‘prosperity gospel’ cult has flooded Africa and Asia with it’s false teachings, through so-called ‘Christian TV and personalities. TV preachers have their own personality cults with devotees that are strident and vicious in the defense of their pet teachers.
I don’t necessarily blame the USA for all the filth. Much of it was imported first from Europe and Asia. When I was a child, pornography came from Europe. Europe led the way in ‘normalizing’ homosexuality. Japan has spread it’s perverted sexuality all over the globe. China steals everything it can from anybody it can and resells it at a discount. But, it seems, it is the USA and it’s high standard of living and emphasis on ‘personal freedoms’ that embodies to most the worst of western culture.
There ARE real ministries and churches in the USA, but they are sadly in the minority and largely unseen – because they are focused on actually LIVING the Gospel instead of merchandising it. They are the few that are living the gospel instead of just giving it lip service.
Don’t get me wrong – I was born in the USA. I love the people of this country and cannot help but weep when I see the condition of this country. But I have no illusions and my loyalty is to my KING, THE KING OF GLORY, not to any earthly kingdom.
Its another substitute for the original gospel. It is a sidetrack to get us off the main message. Right wing politics is another sidetrack. They may stand for some good principles but it is still not the main message that as a Christian, called of our Lord to spread the gospel, we need to be concerned with. Anyway the enemy can get us to water down the message that brings true salvation, he will try. Even good stuff.
Jesus said in Matthew 22:21:
Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.
And I guess that is about it.
America has been a great country in many ways. None of us is perfect and the US has made many mistakes. However as a world influence it has been better than most others.
But whether or not it is doing God’s will, or anything like that, is not really relevant.
The Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of God and it is here around us. Through us. It is the Kingdom of God accessed through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who died for my sin.
Part of the negative brain washing (that may even lead to a future totalitarian system) has been in getting western civilisation to despise itself but, it is the greatest civilisation that has been on the face of this planet, so I don’t have a problem with the US in human terms.
Lots of stupid stuff, sure, but America is not the Kingdom of God. Sure, patriotism could be idolatry. Anything that is, (in truth!) more important than the Lord Jesus, is idolatry.
As someone living outside of the USA looking into what America and it’s people stand for at first I admit that I was fascinated by their patriotism.But over time as I look deeper one is astounded by a number of things at which is the accepted norm in US society.Greed seems to be the driving factor behind most of these practises from Hollywood to – a term used in my home country South Africa for – TBN(Homemark Shopping Network).The fact that rights has been added to everything and thus compromising the guiding Word of God has overtaken any logical thinking and the church stands guilty here.How can the church not raise it’s voice as society falls deeper into the abyss of hell.But this is a problem not only in the US.World wide when are we going to stop compromising the Word of Life to satisfy the corrupt system of the world.And yet we call it democracy.Let’s stand together in prayer as ambassador’s for Immanuel, the One to whom our patriotism should truly belong irrespective of where you live in this temporary world.
Patriotism is idolatry under any circumstances. It interferes with Matthew 6:33: Seek first his kingdom. Most Christians put that in second place. I can’t emagine the Christians of the first century even considering it.
Nations rise and nations fall, but I believe we are to uphold Romans 13 as far as it depends on not violating God’s higher laws. And I am only patriotic in the sense that I believe this country was founded on godly principles (thus, our freedoms). God’s blessing has been upon the land, expressed through her vast natural beauty, arability, and abundance. Historically, I see America as having been a Providential gift to the world.
But as a result of her prosperity and a sleeping church, the heart of this nation (via church leaders, families, federal and local government, schools) became lifted up in wicked pride–and to the extent of her pride, so great is her fall.
This word came to me in early June 2010 concerning the times we are living in:
This is a time of great conflict. Wars within and wars without. A time of treachery against the Lord, a time of power and exaltation in the flesh. God is allowing all these things to come about, so as to create a conflict of kingdoms, that His kingdom may prove as the enduring kingdom.
But it will not be as people think.
The believer, the steady believer, will seem as though he has faltered,
and the false and disingenuous will rise up, claiming their rights.
But God would say, “You have no rights.”
In Me, I have given you a Kingdom.
I have given you My own Son, but you would not.
You chose a way that seemed right to you, and you fell by the wayside.
You have lifted up your heart
and strengthened your crown,
rather than find in Me your strength.
I will not be mocked.
I will be exalted in My people. But it will not be as some may think.
No, it will not be as some (many) would think.
Find in Me your strength.
Find in Me your counsel.
Find in Me the treasures of the times you are living in.
For there will be no other treasure—there will be no other treasure found upon the earth.
All will waste away and be counted as rubble.
Find in Me your treasure.
Find in Me your strength.
(And the Spirit weeps… As the people go on in their willful ways, God has few He can entrust with His words.)
First of all, if these questions make people mad, it’s a first indication that the dangers you suggest, really exist.
Patriotism is a phenomenon that came into existence with the appearance of national states, which is a relatively young phenomenon – just a few centuries. Some people seem to think it has its foundation in the bible and especially in the USA many people think it’s a christian’s duty to be patriotic.
Yet Jesus told Pilate, “My Kingdom is not of this world” and remember that this saying was the answer to Pilate’s question: “Are you the king of the Jews”. Many Christians would answer this question affirmative, but Jesus didn’t, because His Kingdom is NOT an eathly Kingdom.
Strangely, many christians are patriots and sing “This world is not my home” at the same time. I believe it’s important, that a national state is a secular thing and there’s really nothing particularly “christian” about it.
I’m Dutch. Some Dutch christians like to emphasize that the Dutch state is a result of the Reformation, by virtue of the battle of William of Orange against the spanish catholic king. To them, “God, Holland and Orange” belong together. Now in every country people like to pimp their history, and they “forget”, that the struggle was mainly a political one and the largest motivation was simply to get rid of the Spanish yoke.
Americans also pimp their history. The Founding Fathers where christians and founded a christian nation. At the same time we know how the native Americans suffered and lots of it was not “Christian” at all.
One of your questions is “Is the US still a force for “righteousness” in the earth?” Frankly, I believe there has hardly been a time it was that. Most of the wars fought by Americans was to safeguard American interest and not to bring righteousness. The first war against Iraq was not to so much to liberate Kuwait (otherwise it had ended there), but to ensure the USA oil supply wouldn’t be blocked. The Vietnam war didn’t bring righteousness. US support under Ronald Reagan of Middle American dictators didn’t bring righteousness. It was only meant to keep the US clear of too much communism in the neighbourhood. After all, communism in other parts of the world could have its way, as long as no American interest where in danger.
Please, American christians, wake up from your American Dream. Your country is a secular country, like any other country. Countries have political interests and that’s what they stand for. Moral and ethical motives are only used by politicians as window dressing. And, of course, there are a lot people of integrity within the country, who really want to do good things for humanity. But they exist in any country.
Patriotism is a threat to genuine christianity, as it sets a commitment apart from the Kingdom of God, and often contrary to the Kingdom of God.
I’d recommend to listen to Barry McGuire’s “Eve of Destruction” and “Don’t blame God” again. These are eye openers.
To RuthInIndiana – Bravo and Amen, Your post was a breath from the heart of the Father.
Has America turned its back on God, or has the church failed America. Is it possible that Christians or those who claim to walk with God have lost their saltiness? Salt enhances the flavor of food and Christians should be enhancing the Spiritual climate where we are at. I propose that America is falling spiritually because the church became lukewarm.
Instead of seeking God with humble hearts on behalf of our country, we look to place blame. Instead of a position of strength, and a message that stirs people’s hearts, Christians do not know what to do. Many Christians do not recognize that God wants to heal our land and see it returned to its prominent status. We would rather give up on our country than fight for it. Remember, we are not fighting against flesh and blood, (i.e. People)
China recognized what made America great. They found that it was our religious foundation, the fact that we were a Christian nation that enabled us to achieve what we have achieved. Secular people are giving up on Christianity because the church has nothing to demonstrate, nothing that sets us apart. There is nothing about the church that represents the Jesus who walked on the land and drew men to Him. If we truly want to see America become a spiritual and moral influence in the world; the church must become a spiritual and moral influence.
What did the FIRST AND SECOND CENTURY CHRISTIANS have to say about Patriotism? The following comments take us from 125 AD to 248 AD. From a book by David Bercot.
Holding Public Office
The early Christian view of participation in government and in politics and their
whole view of patriotism was really an area that made the early Christians stand out
from the world around them.
In his apology to the Romans, Tertullian said this about Christians:
All zeal in the pursuit of glory and honor is dead in us. So we have no pressing
inducement to take part in your public meetings. Nor is there anything more
entirely foreign to us than the affairs of state. We acknowledge one all-embracing
commonwealth – the world. Tertullian (c. 195, W), 3.46.
· It’s hard to describe how absolutely revolutionary those words were
in that time. They are still fairly revolutionary today, this idea of
instead of being loyal to your state and the people in it, that you
recognize a whole world, that everybody in the world are brothers
and sisters.
· The early Christians saw themselves as all part of one kingdom, the
kingdom of God, so they had no interest in the affairs of state, of
the secular world around them or of the earthly governments. They
already had their kingdom and their fellow citizens were the other
members of this kingdom.
Origen wrote, speaking about Celsus who was a pagan critic of the Christians. He
says:
Celsus [a pagan] also urges us to “take office in the government of the country, if
that is necessary for the maintenance of the laws and the support of religion.”
However, we recognize in each state the existence of another national organization
that was founded by the Word of God. And we exhort those who are mighty in
word and of blameless life to rule over churches…. It is not for the purpose of
escaping public duties that Christians decline public offices. Rather, it is so they
may reserve themselves for a more divine and necessary service in the church of God
– for the salvation of men. Origen (c. 248, E), 4.668.
· Again, the Romans noted that the Christians didn’t take part in the
affairs of state and the maintaining of laws and that sort of thing.
· The early Christians saw their loyalty and national pride in the
kingdom of God. If they had special abilities, they would say: rather
than becoming a leader in the world to try to make it better, we will
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use these special abilities and gifts we have for the kingdom of God.
We will rule over churches, not over affairs of state.
__________
As Tertullian noted:
The Caesars too would have believed on Christ, if either the Caesars had not been
necessary for the world, or if Christians could have been Caesars. Tertullian (c. 195,
W), 3.35.
· This was in his apology, noting that Tiberius Caesar had issued a
fairly strong statement in support of Christianity, and that he
perhaps would have become a Christian if a Christian could be a
Caesar. But it was a given among the early church that you couldn’t
do both.
Now the early Christians didn’t teach that it was wrong to work for the
government. They tried to be flexible with each person’s situation. The problem
was that so many government positions, particularly administrative positions would
cause a Christian to have to violate one or more of Christ’s teachings. Now this was
even more true in their day than it is in ours because of the joinder of the Roman
state with idolatrous religion.
Tertullian wrote this:
If we remember this rule [to avoid idolatry], we can render service even to
magistrates and rulers, according to the example of the patriarchs and the other
forefathers. They obeyed idolatrous kings up to the point of idolatry. Therefore,
very recently, there arose a dispute as to whether a servant of God should take upon
himself the administration of any dignity or power – if he can keep himself (through
adroitness or some special grace) from every type of idolatry. For there is the
example of both Joseph and Daniel, who kept clean from idolatry and yet
administered both dignity and power in…. Egypt and Babylonia.
He continues:
Let us suppose that it is possible for anyone to succeed in operating under the mere
name of the office, in whatever office. Let us also suppose the following: He neither
sacrifices nor lends his authority to sacrifices. He does not farm out sacrificial
victims. He does not assign to others the care of the temples. He does not look after
their tributes. He does not give spectacles at his own or the public expense, nor
preside over them. He makes no proclamation or edict for any [pagan] festivals. He
does not even take oaths. Furthermore, he does not sit in judgment on anyone’s life
or character (for you might allow his judging about money). He neither condemns
nor indicts. He chains no one. He neither imprisons nor torturers anyone. Now, is
it believable that all this is possible? Tertullian (c. 200, W), 3.72.
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· To be a governor or to hold any kind of administrative position in
the Roman Empire, these are all things that would come along with
that. You would find yourself having to do things that would be
wrong for you to do as an individual Christian.
· The Christians didn’t feel that it was okay if you do it as a servant of
the government. No, if it was wrong for you to do it as a Christian
it was wrong for you to do it in any other capacity because you are
always a Christian. You can never set that aside.
· “He does not give spectacles at his own or the public expense.” This
is talking about gladiator games and things like that.
One of the underlying principles of early Christianity was that the end never
justifies the means. The church believed that how something is accomplished is just
as important as what is accomplished. Overcoming evil by adopting the methods of
evil was totally unacceptable to the early church. Although the Romans considered
it to be a noble act to defend one’s country through bloodshed, the Christians
viewed it simply as sin.
As Lactantius explained:
It is not virtue to be ‘the enemy of the bad’ and the ‘defender of the good.’ The
interests of our country are invariably acquired and protected at the expense of
another state or nation. Increasing the power of the state, improving the state
revenue, and extending the national boundaries are accomplished by violently taking
from others. None of these things are virtuous, but are instead the abrogation of
virtue… How can a man be just who injures, who hates, who despoils, and who kills?
Yet, those who strive to serve their country do all these things….A man who gives in
to grief and anger instead of struggling with them, and rushes to wherever he feels
called by injustice, is not upholding virtue. For a person who repays injury for injury
is actually imitating the person by whom he has been injured. He who imitates a
wicked person can by no means be righteous. Book 6, Chap. 10 of Lactantius’
Institutes.
· So that was the whole problem. If we are going to serve our
country, they said (it didn’t matter if it was Rome, Persia or one of
the German tribes), the principle was always the same. Serving your
country means doing injury to somebody else.
· Expanding the boundaries of the Roman Empire meant taking
country away from somebody else.
One of the things that made Rome so prosperous was that they despoiled other
people. They conquered their country and then they brought in all of that revenue
or tribute from the spoils of war. Now that eventually ran out once the Empire quit
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expanding and that’s why in the later centuries the Roman Empire had all kinds of
financial problems because it had been built up on the principle of acquiring public
revenue by taking it from other people.
It’s no different today. You could look at the various wars of the United States.
Protecting the interests of the United States has invariably meant quashing the
interests of some other nation. We think it’s all right for America to be strong but
we think it’s evil for somebody else to want to become a world power as well.
v Well hopefully at this point you are able to see how separation from the world
worked in the early church. The early Christians didn’t try to make themselves
different from the society around them. It was simply the act of living out the
Christian value system that made them different and as Jesus prophesied, the
world indeed did hate them because of it.
Yes.. Patriotism can be all of the above and is a big idol in America. I get so tired of all the chain emails like, “these colors don’t run” and others that are full of “American pride” and history, yet in the here and now the country is going to hell in a handbasket and communism has taken root.. as those idolatrous emails just keep coming.
Too bad they aren’t focused on the one who is the author of freedom, Jesus Christ.
Hi Andrew
I want to weep when I start pondering on this.We are all being deceived! Not only Americans,we as South Africans as well ,and so every nation accross the globe.When you get people to ‘feel’ patriotic then you can manipulate their reactions on certain “dissasters” and world events.We have just completed hosting the soccer World Cup.It was a great success or so we are lead to believe.According FIFA they made a few billion Dollars proffit.We on grassroot level can clearly see how our country has been further indebted by this “biggest event” on earth.Politicians are full of praise for the organisers and themselves for completing it successfully,only to award themselves with massive bonusses!
Andrew,we have to wake up and realise that no government have got their citizens’ wellfare a as priority.I am going to be blund and to the point.We are being played as fools by the masonic elite.Preachers affiliating with masons can splash and squander millions of dollars and are exposed,yet they carry on doing BUSSINESS as usual.We have been lured into a money system that not even the “church” can be free from.How can the HOLY GOD be tied up by money and not be able to accomplish HIS HEARTS desire which is to get people free from sin through JESUS CHRIST?What is this rubbish doing in our churches?Or do we have churches because of this rubbish?Are we not being controlled by money(Mamon) in our “Holy Places” by this very masonic elite?
Andrew,I am mad for seeing how our people are hanging onto religion,patriotism,tradition,loyalty,and even churchianity because they have been deceived! If all money has to cease to exist tomorrow,how on earth would we be able to proclaim the good news of JESUS when we are in this money mess?The method is simple:Tie them to Mamon and we will determine their capabillity.We are paralized for we were told to ignore the evil craft of darkness of the freemasons by our own preachers!.My plea is that every sincere child of GOD will ask the HOLY SPIRIT to reveal the strongholds in our churches to us and pray for deliverance of our mental blockage of an enemy far off.He is near!The enemy is “worshipping ” with us in the pews,we use secullar methods and systems and manifistations to seek THE FATHER and only when HE comes “down”HE is there.Jesus said a wayward generation seek signs and wonders.Without faith we cannot please GOD.Should we not only believe HE is near and not want to experience HIM?I think the reason why so many preachers fall into adultary is because of contamination,being contaminated by Mamon!Think about it,it is only symtomatic these sinns.Why would there be over 2000 verses in scripture about money and most of it against it?Interresting that the freemasons realised it out of our Bible and we could not see it.We are binded with a distorted truth of our own believe system because we have too many teachers and the WORD says the HOLY SPIRIT is our teacher!!!
Be blessed and pray for GODLY insight.
Any passion [sports, home, family, spouse, country] must be carefully examined as a potential ‘god’ and Jingoism certainly qualifies, I’m ashamed of our role in the world stage, and I’m not ashamed of anything Godly, so I think that asnswers all the first questions. Yes, Hitler did use patriotism and religion as rallying points, funny how riot is part of patriot. We certainly do have riots during political conventions.
Can Patriotism be Idolatry? (ie. Can our country become a kind of ‘god’ to us?)
Yes, I believe it can! I remember after 911 the patriotism that went on in our country. The US sold more flags at that time then any other time. They couldn’t make flags quick enough. I understood the sentiment behind having Patriotism at that time but I also felt that as Christians we should have been raising our Bibles, picking up our crosses and calling out for a turning back to the Lord. At that time many were saying God Bless America, even politicians who live and represent very immoral lives.
-Can Patriotism also become “prideful”?
Absolutely!!
-Is this a problem in the church today?
Without a doubt!
-Will many Christians get mad if we question this?
Those who will get mad are those who have more faith in there country then in God! Those who get mad with this question are the ones who have roots deep in idolatry and are prideful in their support of there Patriotic duty which equals Patriotism
-If we mix Patriotism in with Christianity, will it start to distort the whole message and mission of the church? -In other words, will we start to become “activists” not just for Jesus, but for Patriotism too?
I think we can see that happening already in churches today. We can see how ministers are unwilling to stand up for righteousness and holiness and speak out against leaders who compromise Biblical Truth. Shepherds of the churches today care more about popularity than speaking truth to their sheep. It crushed me to sit back and see my former pastor encourage the sheep to go vote but failed to give the points to consider when voting. In the US we are going to have a President/leader and if we are going to have that then I believe we as Christians need to hold the standard of righteousness and holiness up to those leaders. When we (God’s People) compromise truth and allow godless leaders to rule over us then we are subject to what they rule. However, Patriotism.
Activistism and Politic should NOT be the church or Christian focus!
-Are there voices in TV and Radio today using Patriotism to whip up the Christians? Yes
-Do you think we can be easily manipulated if they appeal to our Patriotic Pride? Yes we can look at how it was done after 911 up until present time.
-Now just a couple of questions about the USA-
-Is the US still a force for “righteousness” in the earth? NO
-When we look at the movies, the TV and the music put out by the USA – which dominates Western culture all around the world -what kind of influence does the US have today?
Well its NOT Righteousness and Holiness. Surely not clean hands and a pure heart!!! I get so frustrated when Christians say its just entertainment…..
-When we look at this massive influence and leadership, does she seem to be a force for ‘light’ or more for greed, sex, materialism and spiritual corruption? I think these are easily answered! Greed, Sex, Materialism, and Spiritual Corruption is on the rampage!
-So is America mostly spreading ‘good’ or spreading ‘evil’ in the world? Both: Spreading good and evil. Why do I say that? Because you do have some good going out its just the evil is overshadowing the good that is done.
-Why then should we “defend” her – as though what she is doing in the earth is “Christian”?
Not sure how I want to answer this questions. I am going to by saying that I am not out to hold a world accountable who do not know truth, who are blind or who have been hurt by the church responsible for the sin in this world and the evil going on. I hold the church responsible and have a difficult time defending the conditions the USA is in in light of that. The church has compromised Biblical Truth and watered it down so much that the standard to be a follower of Jesus Christ is nothing more than coming to church on Sunday morning. The church is losing its “light” and in doing so its becoming harder and harder to bring follower to the Lord. Those pick up there cross and follow Jesus with abandonment are looked at as being legalistic. People like Andrew Storm who would dare to put those questions out is looked as being critical and judgmental. Christians have become very tolerant of sin. I am so amazed out how many Christians allow themselves to become entangled with the evil devises of the enemy to entertain themselves. We must remember that the USA is a Christian Nation in Name ONLY!!!
C. S. Lewis spoke of this danger in “The Screwtape Letters” back in 1961. I include his wisdom here from chapter 7:
I had not forgotten my promise to consider whether we should make the patient an extreme patriot or an extreme pacifist. All extremes, except extreme devotion to the Enemy, are to be encouraged. Not always, of course, but at this period. Some ages are lukewarm and complacent, and then it is our business to soothe them yet faster asleep. Other ages, of which the present is one, are unbalanced and prone to faction, and it is our business to inflame them. Any small coterie, bound together by some interest which other men dislike or ignore, tends to develop inside itself a hothouse mutual admiration, and towards the outer world, a great deal of pride and hatred which is entertained without shame because the “Cause” is its sponsor and it is thought to be impersonal. Even when the little group exists originally for the Enemy’s own purposes, this remains true. We want the Church to be small not only that fewer men may know the Enemy but also that those who do may acquire the uneasy intensity and the defensive self-rightousness of a secret society or a clique. The Church herself is, of course, heavily defended and we have never yet quite succeeded in giving her all the characteristics of a faction; but subordinate factions within her have often produced admirable results, from the parties of Paul and of Apollos at Corinth down to the High and Low parties in the Church of England.
If your patient can be induced to become a conscientious objector he will automatically find himself one of a small, vocal, organised, unpopular society, and the effects of this, on one so new to Christianity, will almost certainly be good. But only almost certainly. Has he had serious doubts about the lawfulness serving in a just war before this present war of serving began? Is he a man of great physical courage—so great that he will have no half-conscious misgivings about the real motives of his pacifism? Can he, when nearest to honesty (no human is ever very near), feel fully convinced that he actuated wholly by the desire to obey the Enemy? If he is that sort of man, his pacifism will probably not do us much good, and the Enemy will probably protect him from the usual consequences of belonging to a sect. Your best plan, in that case, would be to attempt a sudden, confused, emotional crisis from which he might emerge as an uneasy convert to patriotism. Such things can often be managed. But if he is the man I take him to be, try Pacifism.
Whichever he adopts, your main task will be the same. Let him begin by treating the Patriotism or the Pacifism as a part of his religion. Then let him, under the influence of partisan spirit, come to regard it as the most important part. Then quietly and gradually nurse him on to the stage at which the religion becomes merely part of the “cause”, in which Christianity is valued chiefly because of the excellent arguments it can produce in favour of the British war-effort or of Pacifism. The attitude which you want to guard against is that in which temporal affairs are treated primarily as material for obedience. Once you have made the World an end, and faith a means, you have almost won your man, and it makes very little difference what kind of worldly end he is pursuing. Provided that meetings, pamphlets, policies, movements, causes, and crusades, matter more to him than prayers and sacraments and charity, he is ours—and the more “religious” (on those terms) the more securely ours. I could show you a pretty cageful down here.
Your affectionate uncle
SCREWTAPE
Yes, indeed patriotism can be an idol. However, perhaps in the case of the U.S. of A. one should look further. I believe that it is not the USA (don’t know about Canada) or patriotism that people tend to worship but rather freedom. Lady Liberty I believe she is called. Freedom to do this and freedom to do that, when in truth Americans are not free at all. They are dictated by national polls, tv shows and the FDA, etc., etc. And besides the only freedom one should demand is the freedom to serve Christ. So help you God!
In a nutshell the answer is YES to the above questions.
Quite often I understand the grief of Jeremiah for his country and the people of God. I love my country and pray it could be a light to the world of the truth of Jesus, but alas it is not. The U.S. in and of itself is heathen. Patriotism (& Politics) will not save this country from it’s destruction. The majority (the many following the broad road) of people in the U.S. long ago turned away from or were never looking to God, so they could enjoy the abundant life. Just as with Israel, America will reap what it has sown. Because this country was given great blessings and light we will be held more accountable for squandering it away and embracing the darkness.
The modern church in the U.S. has been given much light but walks in little of it and therefore has little power in God to effect change anywhere. Mostly, except for the few that find the narrow path, what the American brand of Christianity shows the world is greed, deception and delusion.
Not just the newer prophetically obsessed churches but even older mainstream churches that have conformed to the image of the world in small but consistent ways over many years. Like the frog that starts in cold water and is slowly brought to a boil, deception has crept in and leavened everything. After a while it’s called tradition and allowed to stay. I’ve personally heard it said in a church when questioning un-biblical practices, “but it’s always been that way.”
Wrestling through the grief of the state of the church in America has been hard for many years. When I’ve cried out to God, “Why”, it’s always been the same answer, “It has to be this way son” and He reminds me that Scripture cannot be broken.
We are watching Scripture be fulfilled right before our eyes every day. We are in the midst of the great falling away.
I pray God will have mercy on us where He will.
Matthew 24:10-14 1 Timothy 4:1-2 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
Stan
“YES!” to all your questions that require a “yes” or “no” answer. It’s refreshing to see others thinking the same way. I thought that I was all alone.
Our patriotism regarding our nation is not born in defending it, but praying for forgivenss, revival and restoration to the LORD. As a Tea Party member, I can tell you nearly 100% of the TP are Christians who care, really care about our destiny and the desire to be in GOD’s will. What’s going on there in D.C. has to do with atheistice socialism and communism, unabashedly proclaimed. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” –Edmund Burke. Don’t complain the church is silent when thousands of us are praying and marching, and you’re trying to shut us up so that we play right into the enemy’s hand. You need to wake up, and don’t fall for such deceitfulness.
American and idolatry are synonymous. The pop culture, the idols of music, the Christian cruises with ‘pop stars’, the Christian radio stations that have favorite artists on air, the frivolity with which Christianity treats life in these end times, the entertainment promoted by Christian movie critics, the lawyers defending rights of Christians instead of praying for the other parties, the popularity of books in Bible studies instead of just using the Bible for a ‘Bible Study’….all these and many many more reflect how idolatrous Christianity is in the USA.
All of these things come before God and loving Him with all our heart/soul/mind/strength – the Greatest Commandment.
Where is the obedience to Jesus that He commanded, Matthew 28?
Where is the priority of the Bible?
Why do Christian leaders blame the unbelievers instead of taking responsibility and being accountable themselves for the failures of Christians to be salt and light? Particularly Pat Robertson and James Dobson.
Why do Christian leaders promote false doctrines in books instead of promote the Bible?
Why are Christians so big on money instead of on God?
There is simply so much idolatry in the Church in the US it is hard to list it all…and it is all SIN, which isn’t preached on anymore along with obedience to Jesus.
Patriotism is but one idolatry, there are countless others. Until Christians start repenting for their own sins, and start obeying Jesus, it’ll only get worse.
Ever wonder about the parable of the 10 virgins? Of those who think they are Christians, only one half really are and the others won’t realize it until it’s too late.
Isn’t anyone obeying Jesus and seeking to promote Him?
I think you are right, it can become idolatry. Like most things it is possible to take a good thing too far. God did not seem to have an issue with Israel being patriotic, but we must not forget that we are dual citizens and our US citizenship must be secondary to our citizenship in the kingdom.
I think we should be good stewards of what God has given us. I think it is prudent to be involved in the political arena, in fact I believe we should do our part to maintain the liberties and freedom that God has so richly blessed us with.
I need to repent of my Idols and you need to repent of yours. Do you believe that America is the end time Babylon of scripture? Is that why you are so soon to jump on people who love their own country? Anything you love more than God is an Idol and for you that very well maybe a doctrine and desire for the failure of America! We are to love the things that God loves and hate the things that God hates. Does God hate America? I readily can see many wicked things in America and there are a great many folk in this country that spend their wealth in a very wicked way. Yet do I need to remind you of the apparent good things that Americans do? They give more money to charity than any other country by far! Do you somehow or another think that America would be less wicked if they were more like any other country in your mind? I think that is just the problem, America is becoming more and more like other countries and less and less the bastion of freedom it has been! Why are you pining for the destruction of America? On a previous post someone on this forum suggested that there was no such thing as a conservative Christian, I guess to be a Christian you cannot take a political side, since God is A-political, right? As far as my “conservative” beliefs, which of them do you think is wrong? Because I am against killing babies before they are born? Because I am against stealing from one person to give the money to a person who won’t work? Because I am against race baiting and racism? Because I am against big oppressive Government? Because I am for a Government that will leave me and my family alone to practice our faith according to our own consciences? Because I want to raise my own family, rather than the Government? Why do you think that the world would be a better place without America? I have noticed a group of you “proclaiming Christians” in recent years, sitting on your hands, refusing to even get off your hind quarters to vote in the interest of Americans, some of you voted for Obama as if you are doing God’s will in furthering this country’s downfall! If that is you I am talking to, you are wicked and pathetic and extremely blind to actively vote to the hurt of your own nation! If you truly believe that McCain would have done the same as Obama is now doing, please don’t offer your help to my family, if you are our friend, why do we need enemies? Glen Beck needs to repent of his false god of Joseph Smith, of course the real God isn’t going to honor an ecumenical attempt at his favor! However, I am very grateful that Glen Beck is telling the truth, in many cases about the evils of the Kenyan born man now running this country into the ground! So I guess my final question I repeat, why do you want America to fail, is that sort of a spiritual thing you are being lead by and to what ends?
Sincerely In Christ!
Robert Begnaud
Wow, Robert!
I think we were just asking some pertinent questions about the posibility of Patriotism becoming Idolatry.
Don’t you think too many Christians almost “worship” their country as much as they worship Jesus?
-They sure talk that way.
What say you?
Look, anything can become idolatry if it comes between you and God. But God GAVE us this system of government. He expects us to appreciate that and make use of it to elect godly leaders. If we don’t, then we shouldn’t complain about what we get. Christian lack of political involvement and isolationism gave us Roe vs. Wade.
Just look at Israel and Judah in the Bible. The judges and the kings were extremely influential in the righteousness or lack of righteousness of the people. Just because we have a republic and we elect our leaders doesn’t change the FACT that they have immense control over the direction this nation and its people take. Getting involved politically is not evil and its not anti-Christian. However, we need to be cautious in believing that political conservatism is equal to being a Christian. It’s not. But because the ideology of political conservatism has many points which appeal to Christians, many believers have hopped on board the conservative wagon and are getting involved in the election process.
Also, you have to remember – this country is in a big election year and we have suffered with ultra-liberal government for a while and it has damaged the country deeply. It’s not so much patriotism (although there is much of that because of the support of troops overseas) as protecting our Constitution which is getting chipped away at a little every day. But don’t start calling people idolaters because they get politically involved during an election year. It’s part of the governmental process which God gave this country.
Is the war a “Christian” war?
-Andrew
Comment to your question:
-When we look at the movies, the TV and the music put out by
the USA – which dominates Western culture all around the world -
what kind of influence does the US have today?
It is doubtful that Satan wants anyone to discern the day in which we live…Are not his ploys to distract…divide…divert…and eventually destroy.
Last year my son was studying Roman history in fifth grade …he learned how the Caesars used the entertainment of games at the Coliseum to accomplish their own political objectives. I remember thinking: is this not happening right now in America and in the world?
Scripture says: “there is nothing new under the sun”
From 2 Timothy 3:
“But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God”
Words that leaps out:
…“lovers of themselves” -Facebook
…“lovers of money” -Wallstreet
…“disobedient to their parents” -resonates in lyrics/and sit-coms/reality TV
…”lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God” -minutes for God/hours for enertainment
Has there ever been more emphasis on pleasure, entertainment and amusement than in this time?
From Neil Postman’s (1985) book: Amusing Ourselves to Death
Review comments:
…”Postman binds your interest by illustrating and documenting how the rise of the electronic media and its manipulation of what you see in way of news and entertainment has inexorably changed the meanings, purposes and ultimate uses of politics, economics, and technology”
…this book gives prescient insight on how so many Americans have become so amazingly uninformed in the information age.”
…”Television has been given so much authority that it does not matter what’s on it, so much that it is on…being in a trance and reclining in our sofas to forget about the world (and what the GOVERNMENT is doing) is just as fatal as the government getting involved in every aspect of our lives”
…”It is extremely important that today’s Americans take a close look at just what effects the television has had on themselves and their children; Postman’s work is dead on target. We have moved, as a nation, from those who seek entertainment as a means to an end (most particularly, rest between productive work), to those who seek entertainment as an end in itself.
… And, as Huxley realized in Brave New World: “This is the undoing of Western civilization – a prosaic fade away into an entertained oblivion”…Huxley warned: “totalitarian societies need not arise through violent overthrow of the democracies using brutality, cruelty and violence, but can also occur whenever the citizenry is successfully deluded into apathy by petty diversions and entertainments”
Where and how we are being “distracted, deceived and deluded” is something followers of Christ need to discern for themselves.
Many years ago my Pastor gave a message called: “Where is your focus?”…It was very impactful and I often ask myself that very question.
We live in increasingly dark times and we are in a “fight”…I do not have the answers but I know the One Who does…and I am watching for Him.
In His Light, Fay in Pittsburgh, PA-USA
Since we are instructed to love our enemies then war is not Christian. After working for US Army for 35 years i saw only idolatry and wickedness. 2 of the main products sold in the post exchange are still pornography and alcohol.
We are not of this world. I don’t vote anymore. Both parties in last election supported abortion. The greed and lies in the American church are only getting worse.
Look up our redemption draws near.
I am not an “anti-war” kind of guy.
But it has really surprised me that US Christians are basically the biggest supporters of war in the USA.
Again, I believe this is because Christianity has got totally mixed in with “Patriotism”.
Many honestly think it is their “Christian duty” to support war.
That’s how distorted everything has become.
Jesus – “My kingdom is not of this world”
Not that I am “anti-USA” either. I love the place, love the people. My brother and nephews live there.
I just want to see these “distortions” gone from Christianity.
I think Andrew likes controversial questions, so I will add a few more for anyone to answer.
1. Are Christians to become so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good? Has the church around the world retreated into our shells and lost our salt? And why?
2. If the American constitution was written so that the responsibility for government was placed upon the citizens, how are we Christians being responsible when we avoid taking responsibility and not vote nor participate in government?
3. Do we please God when we avoid responsibility?
4. If Jesus prayed “thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven”, please show how God’s will is done if we avoid any work of service to our nation? Is it Jesus will that to become a member of the Kingdom of God we totally ignore our responsiblities?
5. If Christians are watching the demoralizing of America, does sequestering and hiding in a church building to pray to God effectively combat the decline, or does it hurry it along?
In Germany, when the Jews were being taken to the concentration camps, the Christians in the churches next to the tracks sang louder, so they wouldn’t have to hear the tortured cries.
So does becoming heavenly minded about Jesus mean that we ignore the murder of innocents (abortion) and neglect to consider that children in society are being taught perversion in our public education system?
Jesus said that whosoever offends the faith of one of these little ones who believe in him, it’s far better if a huge millstone is hung about his/her neck and that person drowned in the depths of the sea.
Do we stand idly by and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom while the evil one snatches the children right out from under our nose?
Lest I be thought patriotic, I am aware of things going on in America that would cause all Christians to become nauseated to their stomach, it is that evil. This nation is the most wicked on the face of the earth.
The past 50 years I have watched American Christians retreat from the battlefield, hole up in their enclaves (excuse me, churches) and lose all spiritual power and anointing. Furthermore I have watched American Christians dodge their responsibility to elect Godly government leaders. Now the country has evil leaders.
How did all this happen? We neglected our responsibilities before our heavenly Father.
So why should He feel compelled to grant any more mercy?
Finally, if we are to do the Father’s will, doesn’t that mean more than just going to church for one hour a week? Could it possibly mean what our nation’s founder thought it meant, that we establish God’s kingdom here?
Just what did Jesus mean, when He prayed “thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven” ???
Our problems are “spiritual”
The solutions are spiritual – not political.
Christians have been a huge active force in US Politics since the Reagan years.
All the while things have got worse.
Politics did not fix it.
While I do believe that idolatry of anything is, of course, evil we can still love our country and want to see it blessed without worshipping our country.
I would also say that freedom and religion often work in sync with one another and we have to take care to preserve our secular freedoms in order to maintain our non-secular freedom. Stalin, Hitler, and Mao are only a few examples of how the two are inter-related.
I pulled the following off the internet and add it now:
“About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:
“A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.”
“The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
* From bondage to spiritual faith;
* From spiritual faith to great courage;
* From courage to liberty;
* From liberty to abundance;
* From abundance to complacency;
* From complacency to apathy;
* From apathy to dependence;
* From dependence back into bondage.”
________________________
Awesome quote, Sarah.
I agree with Randall 100%.
Your posted made me think of pacifists who want to be free to be pacifists and enjoy all the freedoms of democracy , i.e., those enumerated in the Bill of Rights, for instance. But when the time comes to actually stand up and fight for those same rights —perhaps die for those same right—-they refuse to do so.
God help us if the church in the U.S. (I no longer say the West since the western church is practically dead) decides to lie down and roll over and refuse to take a stand for FREEDOM!.
Read Bonhoeffer. He was no pacifist hiding behind spiritual platitudes. He gave his life for 1. His God and 2. His country (recall Bonhoeffer was executed for his part in an assassination attempt of Hitler….how WWJD was that?)
any one thing who’s beginnings are non-sinful, that increase to unhealthy quantities or levels becomes idolatry.
although there is nothing amiss with patriotism, we run the risk of becoming an evangelist of and for the state and not of Jesus. i love my country, i love Jesus more.
Yes Andrew, there are many people on the right of politics and on the left of politics that have put their trust in America, rather than in God. On the right they look the other way and deem George Bush a godly man and those like him, they deem all of our founding fathers godly men, even when it can be shown that this is not the case entirely. On the left, they too, being grown out of the sixties, their freedom and love for America is their freedom to do as they please and what they please to do is great wickedness. All these people put their trust in America to save them, they trust in riches and armies; one group is Country and God, and the other is Country and freedom from God. All these do not know God in truth, neither do they acknowledge him as God. As far as War, I don’t like it, but I do not believe that all war is evil. If you come into my house to bring harm to my family, you may very well be shot dead! That does not make me a murderer nor a warmonger. The problem was George Bush and his false god of religion and compromise, it was why we went to war, how the war was accomplished, the rules of engagement, the wisdom or lack thereof, a godly man has wisdom uncommon to the natural man, George Bush was not a godly man and Barack Obama is a vile man; no wisdom there at all! It is the how and why of war, not the issue of war it’s self. If you disagree, please tell me one instance of Jesus or any of the Apostles telling Roman military to cease to fight in their station as they were charged by the Roman government to do so? They were told not to extort and treat citizens unfairly, but I cannot recall where they were told to refuse to fight and kill their enemies! For those who believe that their Christianity is in conflict with their love of country and to be a Christian means for them not to vote for the best options America has available, leaving the power of the vote to the most vile in our society, I question which God you are serving, I question your wisdom and your spirit. He that knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin! What I hope for America, is that God will destroy the most wicked of the bunch and turn her riches over to those who dwell before the Lord! Knowingly I have no control in the matter, God is judge! Only with mine eyes shall I see and behold the destruction of the wicked, a thousand shall fall at my side and ten thousand at my right hand but it shall not come nigh my dwelling.(one of my favorite scriptures)
Sincerely Robert Begnaud
I never said not to vote.
I questioned whether Patriotism can become Idolatry.
-Andrew
Tied in with this idea of patriotism and ‘christianity”, here in America is this notion that because we “give’ so much to so many other countries, we think that we will be naturally blessed by God. It’s really an assumption on a lot of “christians” minds. Like it’s just a given.
Because we are America, we are blessed. A faulty notion at best.
Many think, well yes, we have our sins, but we have this missionary heritage that sent so many around the world with the gospel, that God can’t help but bless us in return.
How blind we are to our own sins!
Yes, we as a country have sent many missionaries around the world with the gospel. And yes, God has blessed us. But now, the very ugly underbelly or our sins is festering to the surface, and we are seeing that we are not as “godly” as we “thought”.
Sadly, many are still caught up in a delusion that we can do no wrong as a country, and this mentality is going to comeback to bite us. Pride goeth before a fall as the saying goes.
And unfortunately, when America “goes” so does the rest of the world that has become so dependent on the bloated arrogant “image” America has promoted. This mentalty is really our shame rather than our glory.
Andrew asked if the war is a Christian war after my comment on patriotism vs. idolatry, which was a complete swipe at the idea that Christians might support soldiers overseas. Supporting our soldiers is not quite the same thing as supporting war. And I don’t think this is a Christian war but it is a war to try to stop a great evil from spreading across the entire globe. Is that right or wrong is the real question? And my question to you, Andrew, is – did God ever tell anyone to go to war? And is God the same yesterday, today, and forever? God told the Israelites to commit genocide and that more than once. How does that fit with modern Christian thought?
Also, what happens when people don’t defend the weak? What are the ethics of standing by and letting someone hurt another person when you could do something to stop it, even if it meant attacking the attacker? Is it the Christian thing to do to stand back and let it happen or to stop it, even if by force? The Amish believe in complete pacifism – what do you think? Is that what the Bible teaches from start to finish?
The Bible says that David was a man after God’s own heart. David was a warrior, but he also sinned and committed murder and God punished him for that but not for his wars. He didn’t allow David to build His temple but God didn’t punish him for being a soldier. In the Bible does God count the general war deaths as murder?
Also, what if God ordained the war against terrorists? How do you know He didn’t?
A country is always tied to its citizens. In scripture, God titled peoples by their country or area. Israel became the name of a nation after it was the name of a person. People are not idolizing America. They just want a safe and happy place to be. People want a good family, job, etc.
There is no queation that America needs a Great Awakening again. But there are far more believers in most cities than Sodom could round up.
It is very popular to criticize patriotism, but most of you are too young to actually understand the concept. Anyone who does not love their contry in a basic sense is shallow and does not understand biblically designed government that was to protect and bless people. It works best when it is Godly and Holy.
Andrew, your accent betrays you. Did you come from a background of understanding proper pariotism? Anyone who does not stand to protect family and country has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. Not protecting country and establishing borders always brings family danger and insecurity.
The Christlife and Natinon life affect each other, but are actually two separate issues. Now you know why we have a basic separation by not establishing a religion nor disallowing freedom of religion (Christian only). CHRIST REDEEMS MAN AND SAVES HIM FROM THE PATHS OF SIN. Men have to choose and organize their own governments, since Christ came for a different kingdom reason.
Don’t confuse the two issues!
I have no problem at all with America the nation using its military.
What I question is why the Christians in America act like this war is a “Christian” cause.
The Christians have basically become the biggest supporters of war in America. That is mind-boggling to me – and seems very different from NT Christianity. It shows how deeply distorted the church has become – that it thinks this is its role.
Isn’t this a sign of ‘Patriotism’ totally distorting Christianity?
Patriotism is simply another form of idol worship. I am thankful that I was born and live in a nation that allows my free expression of speech, but it seems that is going away. America and the nations of the world are headed for destruction. Now on the positive side. I do believe we ar to be light and salt for the Lord Jesus Christ. If the Church will begin to do that, America can be redeemed and any other nation of the world, so let us stand for righteousness, be involved in the running of a government, but never set it up as the answer or solution to problems
I have a daughter who has served two stints in Afghanistan. I also have one son who served in Iraq. Both have told me time and time again that they felt GOD put them there to share the Gospel of Christ with the locals which they both have done. I know we should love these people, due to after seeing their friends killed by the enemy, per say, both of my children still love them! It’s called forgiveness! Blessing your enemies, and praying for thier salvation. The Word says that there will be wars and rumors of wars, in the last days! So therefore war or no war, the Word of God will ALWAYS be true! Why the debate on war? I think we are getting off the real subject of Patriotism! I for one have never flown a flag in front of my house, due to this very subject of PRIDE. I am not going to raise the flag of this country, because this country refuses to see its EVIL, and raise it’s hands to GOD in total surrenderence. God won’t allow me. I also can’t seem to fly a Christian Flag either, for the same reason, so called Christians refuse to see thier evil and choose not to repent! The word Christian has lost its true meaning in this country!!! All I do know is it’s past time to wake up and turn back to our first Love before it’s too late!!! Its time for AMERICA and AMERICANS to BLESS GOD!!! I feel GOD is done with, God Bless America! Pride WILL take anyone to hell it doesn’t care what area of your life it is in, it’s still PRIDE!!! Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand!
Good points, JKM
And I am sorry if we have got off our main point.
-Andrew
-Can Patriotism be Idolatry? (ie. Can our country become a kind of ‘god’ to us?)
It can and has! Where in the Bible is there a proclamation of God AND country? From what I read in Scripture, the Bible says that if we are truly Christians, then we are citizens of another country…heaven. If that is the case, why are we not more taken up with our true citizenship. Jesus is not coming back for America or any other country. He is returning for His Bride. It’s time we were about our Father’s business. He said He was building His Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Yet, we are taken up with building the earth’s kingdoms.
-Can Patriotism also become “prideful”?
According to Scripture, pride is sin…yet we are “proud we’re an American” etc.
-Is this a problem in the church today?
When the prophets and New Testament writers declared repentance and Paul wanted to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified…why are we hearing so much about patriotism? It is heresy.
-Will many Christians get mad if we question this?
Yes, because we are insulting their “god!”
-If we mix Patriotism in with Christianity, will it start to distort the whole message and mission of the church?
A little leaven, leavens the whole lump.
-In other words, will we start to become “activists” not just for Jesus, but for Patriotism too?
2 Timothy 2:4 (NKJV) 4No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.
-Is it true that Hitler used Patriotism to manipulate the German people – and whip them up to go to war?
Not a student of this.
-Are there voices in TV and Radio today using Patriotism to whip up the Christians?
Yes, and it is being used as tool of Satan to take our eyes of the prize…Christ.
-Do you think we can be easily manipulated if they appeal to our Patriotic Pride?
If we are not able to discern the spirit of what is happening, and we are not able, we will easily be led to what seems right.
-Now just a couple of questions about the USA- -Is the US still a force for “righteousness” in the earth?
The USA is a force for being an example of compromise and sin.
-When we look at the movies, the TV and the music put out by the USA – which dominates Western culture all around the world – what kind of influence does the US have today?
The influence is that everyone wants what we have and are…Paul said to follow me as I follow Christ. We have ceased to do that so what are we causing others to follow?
-When we look at this massive influence and leadership, does she seem to be a force for ‘light’ or more for greed, sex, materialism and spiritual corruption?
By your fruits you shall be known. A people, this includes congregations, are a representative of their leadership.
-So is America mostly spreading ‘good’ or spreading ‘evil’ in the world?
That answer is obvious – evil
-Why then should we “defend” her – as though what she is doing in the earth is “Christian”?
We need to stop defending any country we live in here. We need to stand for the truth and the Kingdom of God!
I say AMEN to Seraphah’s comments. I’ve seen so much anger and hatred in the Republican party in the US. People fighting about which political party is RIGHT with God. NONE. If we ‘fight’ for an end to abortion by voting for a Republican because they are antiabortion, then we are also voting for the big business/corporate machine and materialism and greed. To fight for our rights is vain. We have no rights, as we are crucified in Christ and our lives are on His altar.
How do we judge whether or not a political candidate is Christian? We only have their word. What a way to defraud Christian American’s to gain advantage for a political party. Look at the voices of the Christian Right and their demonization of national leaders. Look at the hatred, the materialism, the disrespect, and the pride that is represented there. Look carefully at Romans 13 and note whether or not the Christian Right or the Tea Party, or any other political faction is behaving in a godly way. Serve God and HIm only. Do the work of an evangelist, and not of a political party.
All cultures, political philosophies, financial philosophies, scientific myths (ie:big bang, evolution, global warming, etc), racial dogmas, sports ideologies, etc, etc, are religions!! Patriotism, nationalism, communism, capitalism, judicialism, etc., are all devilish doctrines driven by seducing spirits. They are the Colossians 2:8 vain, deceitful & worldly philosophies and traditions of men inspired by the “spirits of the universe”. As christians we are supposed to be a “holy (separate) Nation” who seek a city whose builder and maker is God.
@Terry Chambers
1.To attack Andrew because of his nationality is racist, unchristian and arrogant.
2. You have NO IDEA how old any of the other posters are – that remark is also arrogant.
3. God did not ordain a democracy or a republic. He allowed a monarchy because the people rejected the one true God ordained government – a theocracy.
4. Scripture says “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” No mention of country at all.
5. Jesus Christ IS the life. Nothing, but nothing is to come before Him.
By your diatribe, you have basically proven the original surmise. You have made an idol of ‘country’ in place of Jesus Christ and you got angry at Andrew for pointing it out. Your attitude represents what is wrong with American Christianity.
Cara, you nailed it.
The simple fact is, the government of the USA has been lying and manipulating the people for years – and the ‘Christians’ have been helping them do it. What is going on in the USA is not about ‘left and right’ it is about right and wrong. What has and is happening to this country is no accident.
The wars we are presently involved in are NOT righteous causes. They were decided on years ago as part of a plan to steer the world where the power elite wanted it to go. I support the troops, and believe they want to protect and serve their country and weep to see them maimed and killed for such a deception. They die for a lie.
As for voting – how do you justify a vote between evil and worse evil? When there is no righteous alternative, is it really God’s will that we go with ‘the lesser of two evils’? I don’t think so.
And as for the supposedly ‘Christian’ values and ‘freedom of religion’ in the USA – it just isn’t so. Anyone is free to believe, practice, and express any religious belief you like in the USA – except true, Biblical Christianity. Biblical Christianity is called ‘hate speech’ by the politically correct masses. Islamic students have special prayer rooms available in the public schools and are dismissed from class at prayer time, yet Christians children are censured and even expelled for bringing their Bible to school.
Andrew,
Thank you for broaching this topic. it is one that has troubled me for a few years as I have heard people refer to the founding documents of the United States as “Inspired by God.” I believe that a great deception lies in that belief. Not to belabor it but the preamble to the constitution states that the ultimate aim of the document is “to …secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity…” The statue of Liberty is in our great harbor. A minimal amount of research will reveal that it is the representation (ultimately) of the Queen of Heaven. There is an entire study that has been done by men far more scholarly than I about the founding of the government of the United States that does not point to dedication to The LORD.
I firmly believe that He has blessed the people of this country as they have endeavored to follow Him in spite of the machinations of their government, as He does in all of the nations of the world. However, to confuse Him with an entity (the United States) that has been instrumental in the power grab of sons and daughters of Belial to bring about the kingdom of their father is a huge blunder.
According to the Word of God, those who believe on His Son are called, by faith, the children of Abraham. The great characteristic of Abraham and the other members of the “Hall of Fame of Faith” listed in Hebrews chapter 11 is that they…”confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” – Hebrews 11:13
I think God’s viewpoint on patriotism is summed up in these verses from that same chapter.
Hbr 11:15-16 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Joy Perew quoted Screwtape: …temporal affairs are treated primarily as material for obedience… This view point was what came to mind as I was reading all the different comments. If we are placed in a certain nation, we are to obey the laws of the land, as long as they do not conflict with God’s law. (Romans 13:1) If we are called to national service, we can obey as slaves to a master, or workers to an employer, doing all as unto the Lord. (Ephesians 6:5,6)
It is absurd to think of a Burmese Christian waving that country’s flag and cheering for the leaders; ditto for a North Korean Christian. So why is it any different for an American, except for our pride of life and lust of the eyes. (1 John 2:1)
As for voting, it is a choice. If one feels called to vote for a candidate who might actually work for the betterment of society, why not? We choose where to buy food, clothing, etc. The American infrastructure is a very pleasant one to dwell and work in, largely because many leaders and civil servants have worked to build it and keep it that way. But we should never lose sight of the fact that it is a temporary campsite.
Amen to everything that Mary Ditmars has written on this blog.
“The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
– Hermann Goering, before being sentenced to death at Nuremberg.
The whole quote that the above come from:
Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don’t want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood.
But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
– Hermann Goering, before being sentenced to death at Nuremberg.
3000 years ago
4Finally, the leaders of Israel met at Ramah to discuss the matter with Samuel. 5“Look,” they told him, “you are now old, and your sons are not like you. Give us a king like all the other nations have.”
6Samuel was very upset with their request and went to the LORD for advice. 7“Do as they say,” the LORD replied, “For it is me they are rejecting, not you. They don’t want me to be their king any longer. 8Ever since I brought them from Egypt they have continually forsaken me and followed other gods. And now they are giving you the same treatment. 9Do as they ask, but solemnly warn them about how a king will treat them.”
1492 And as Columbus was blown off course heading to Jerusalem he stumbled on to North America…. 1620 and as the Mayflower blew off course…..
“Being blown off course caused another problem for the pilgrims. Since the pilgrims would be settling outside the boundaries of the Virginia colony, they would not be governed by Virginia’s charter. In fact, they would have no charter at all. Brewster called the leaders together to discuss it. “Brothers, we must pray and ask the Lord what we should do about the government.” Winslow was puzzled “what government?” There is no government here! No Kings, no bishops, no sheriffs…“ “Exactly,” Brewster replied “No laws and no one to enforce if there were. And we know how corrupt human beings are. I’m not worried about our Pilgrim families. But the “strangers” out number us. I heard one boast about what he planned to do once he got to shore. With nothing to limit their behavior, we would soon have serious problems.” “ I see what you mean,” Bradford replied. “If we don’t establish a civil government with a firm Christian base before leaving the ship, we will soon have mutiny and anarchy. We must pray!” The leaders raised their voices in one accord and began to seek the Lord for wisdom. Before long Bradford spoke up. “Brothers, I know why God wanted us to return to this bay. He didn’t us to settle in Virginia because he doesn’t want us to be governed by Virginia’s charter. He want’s to do a new thing…he wants all men to see what He can do with a people who totally rely on Him for everything…including their government.” Brewster caught Bradford’s excitement. “Just like Jesus said: “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid.” A city set on a hill cannot be hid.” “Yes!” Bradford said. “Listen…God has prepared us for this!” Brewster exclaimed “Remember when we were still in Holland, how Pastor Robinson studied the Bible to discover God’s pattern for church government?” Bradford smiled. “How could we ever forget? I can hear him now: “The self governing Christians of the New Testament. The Lord Jesus is King of His Church and holds all power in heaven and earth. Christ the Lord gives each Christian the power of self government. Christians then elect representatives , or elders, from among themselves to serve them and be examples to them.” “So we take what we’ve learned about church government and use it to write a covenant for civil government,” Bradford added “The scriptural model is the same.” “Under God” Toby Mac- Michael Tate
Israel didn’t want God as their King but in 1775 and 1776 the motto of the Revolution was “No King except King Jesus” Jonas Clark a pastor in Lexington, Massachusetts was asked by John Hancock and Samuel Adams “If war came would the people of Lexington fight?” He replied “I have trained them for this very hour” the next day the “shot heard around the world” was fired on his church lawn and eight of his congregation lay dead, and as he looked down he said, from this day will be dated the liberty of the world.” Eighty percent of the call to Independence was by the Clergy they were known as the Black Regiment”
Three thousand years ago God’s people turned their back on Him. Three thousand years later he started a new nation that would trust him.
And as the Declaration of Independence was being signed Samuel Adams exclaimed: “ We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come.”
In 1863 our nations sins brought us to the door of destruction and a leader raised his voice:
”We know that by His divine law, nations…are subject to punishments… in this world. May we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war which now desolates the land may be a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people? We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of heaven; we haven been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity; we have grown in number, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace and multiplied and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own…. we have become to self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us. It behooves us, then, to humble ourselves before the offended power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness. All this done in sincerity and truth, let us then rest humbly in the hope authorized by the divine teachings, that the united cry of the nation will be heard on high, and answered with blessings no less than the pardon of our national sins, and the restoration of our now divided and suffering country to its former happy condition of unity and peace”. Abraham Lincoln April 30th 1863
On May 2nd 1863 Stonewall Jackson the South’s “Goliath” general was shot in the arm by his own men and by May 9th he was dead.. The turning point of the war came at Gettysburg in July of 1863 and it was fought without Stonewall Jackson and a leader raised his voice again to the heavens:
After the battle of Gettysburg that year, Union General Daniel Sickles asked the President if he was anxious about the battle he replied: “In the pinch of your campaign up there, when everybody seemed panic stricken, and nobody could tell what was going to happen…I went to my room one day, and I locked the door, and got down on my knees before Almighty God, and prayed to Him mightily for victory at Gettysburg. ” I told Him that this was His war, and our cause His cause, but we couldn’t stand another Fredericksburg or Chancellorsville. And I then made a solemn vow to Almighty God, that if He would stand by you boys at Gettysburg, I would stand by Him. “And after that…soon a sweet comfort crept into my soul that God Almighty had taken the whole business into His own hands and that things would go alright at Gettysburg. And that is why I had no fears about you.”
Samuel Adams “The right to freedom being a gift of the Almighty…the rights of the colonists as Christians…may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institution of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.
1831 Alexis de Tocqueville “Democracy in America” “Not until I went into the Churches of American and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and her power…The Americans combine notions of Christianity and of Liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive of one without the other.”
My question for you Church since we know all the other countries have been enslaved to monarchies or tyrants and that our form of Government was an absolute Gift from Almighty, where were you when they started to dismantle it? Where were you in 1948 when they fabricated the lie of Separation of Church and State? Why was not the church storming congress to impeach the wicked judge? Where were you in 1963 a hundred years after Lincoln’s prayer that a lone atheist representing 3% of the population got Bible reading banned from the schools along with prayer. Where were you standing up for truth and righteousness and Jesus Christ’s interests in America. You just wanted to sit in your pew and do nothing and make sure your out in time to eat. Yes pray to God, fast and take care of what you were given. We were given America and we let it go just like we let the SALTY Gospel go too. Go live in Russia or China or Iran and let’s see how fast you get eyes to see at what you lost!
Just a final note on the consequences of our sin of not being vigilant over the correct teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the loss of the gift of Liberty and our form of government, Founder John Witherspoon wrote “Nothing is more certain than widespread immorality and corruption of manners make a people ripe for destruction. Beyond a certain point even the best constitution will be ineffectual and slavery must ensue.”
I’m afraid were there now my friends. Lincoln pleaded in 1863 that the Gift from God
“ Government of the people, by the people and for the people shall not perish from the earth”. And thanks to the at Sleep Church the plug is about to be pulled, and we will get to live under the bitter consequences of our sin and maybe it just might be just as intense as what Mr. Lincoln and his generation got to endure.
I’m a kiwi (New Zealander) and proud to be one however, I don’t bow down to government, I follow the laws of the land and are sometimes sickened by what my fellow kiwi’s do. Most western countries were formed under Christian principles and that is what abhors those who don’t believe in Christ and they fight tooth and nail to see them reversed (as is what I see happening in the States at the moment), Our previous government removered NZ’s heritage as a “Christian State” and opened it up to every religion saying that one belief has no standing anymore, What that has done in the Spiritual realm for NZ we have yet to see, but, I believe certain protections that were over us because of our founding fathers has been broken.
I’m a Christain and I Love New Zealand
Americans love your country and fight for what is right
I don’t think we’re even asking the right questions. I might be wrong but I would say that the important thing is not whether patriotism is idolatry or whether chrisitian should or should not vote, should or should not be political. The important thing, as with everything, is that we each are lead by the Spirit in everything we do. We seek God then, when He tells us what to do, we obey. There is no other way and ultimately it is the only thing that matters. I think these questions should be asked:
Are you seeking the Lord daily for guidance as to what role you have to play in bringing your country (where ever you live) back to the Lord?
Are you being obedient to His Word whether it be interceeding for your nation on your face before the ONLY one who has any control or casting a vote for the man or woman He tells you to?
Are you being salt and light in your community, state/province, country?
If the answer to these is YES then all is well. Carry on!
If the answer to any of these is NO then I would say you have bigger issues.
My bible says Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. I’m still trying to get that right on a day-to-day basis
I was so surprised to see this discussion come through in the newsletter. As you know, not many will speak of what it means to be a patriot, political and a Christian. As someone posted they thought they were all alone in their feelings, I am the same.
I’m not knowledgeable about so much that has been brought to attention in the posts of others. My story is simple.
I am 68, and Jesus called me, rescued me, sealed me with the Holy Spirit when I was 40. Not being in church, and being taught by Jesus so thoroughly, I didn’t attend for about a year. He probably kept me from that. :) (What a shock when I did begin going to church! LOL)
What I know, what I was taught by The Holy Spirit, was about the Kingdom of God and my place in that. I was taught of my spiritual authority and power in Christ. Spiritual authority is our heritage in the Lord, and as we have His Spirit within us, it seems to me that I see many giving up that authority by taking political authority, etc.
Jesus said to me, “Give me all you have so that I can give you all I have.” I knew nothing, so accepted that from the One who was becoming everything to me.
Giving all means giving up my rights to anything on earth. I’m very blessed to be living in this time, in this country, in my family, but I must never forget that I belong to His Kingdom and it doesn’t work the way the earthly kingdoms do. I can’t pray with authority, can’t agree with God re happenings on the earth, if I’m caught up in anything, including patriotism. In the churches in my area, one is almost compelled to be a Republican to be a Christian. It has come to that.
If I lose my vision, my first Love, my surrender of all things to Him, then what do I have? How can I help anyone? My fear is that the church has traded the authority of the indwelling Christ, our Master, for political power. We are encouraged to come together, vote as one, bring in morality and right government. I would rather surrender everything, be with Him until I know I have the Mind of Christ for a situation. Have you ever felt that, for God’s own reason, you seem to be able to see further than other Christians, and maybe from a higher level? That’s what brings discouragement to me. The lack of seeing in the church. Vision seems to be so earth minded, whether it be the US or some other country on earth.
Someone mentioned being “so heavenly minded we’re no earthly good”. I have long seen the humor in this quote. For me to be “heavenly minded” means that I am more earthly good than I could ever be if I were “earthly minded”. Someone thought it was profound at one time, but they were speaking of those who think they are heavenly minded, when actually they were filled with silly pride.
Someone brought in the WWJD….long a cliche, but in truth, a critical element of thinking for one who follows HIM. What WOULD Jesus do? One thing he didn’t do was please the Zealots by setting up an earthly kingdom. He had higher goals and deeper desire for all. My Kingdom is not of this world, he said.
I think some believe that we are voting for God if we vote a certain way. I think we should vote as we feel led, but God isn’t waiting for us….to see if He is voted in. :)
I guess we are each moved with the passion that our gift gives us. I’ve read that in the may posts here. Many have reminded us that we are not of this world, but belong to a Spiritual Kingdom….and we pray His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
I realize this is just a jumble of thoughts, but I wanted to respond. I seldom do on any of these sites, but this was near to my heart. Please excuse my disjointedness, if you see it that way. My excuse is a two year old great granddaughter angel who is standing at my side wanted gramma to go nite-nite and read a story.
simply His. Nita
Any aspect of our life that is lifted up in importance above our Lord and Faith – must be an idol!
Should we be patriotic proud? Yes!Only for the Kingdom of God.
Pride, patriotism for our own nation? That presents a problem for many. Let me tell you of an experiance we had about twenty years ago.
The pastor received a phone call Sunday morning from a person who wished to attend our meeting that day. “yes of course you are welcome ”
Person turned out to be of middle eastern origin Claimed to be Gov. funded on a pilgrimage to my country. Extremely well dressed, sat politely through the meeting, then asked permission to make folk sit down again and listen to matters of importance he had to say. Permission was denied with explanation as to why. He then distributed from a brief case, anti Christian literature and mythical claims about Jesus (died in India with ten children type stuff) those who read his stuff mostly just laughed at it.The until now polite person became very angry . cursed us all in the name of his god and told us it did not matter what we said or thought or did. “We have an agenda and we do not care if it takes 100 years “…….” (my country name omitted) is one of the first western countries we will make a “………” state”!
Did i feel patriotic and defensive even agressive? First reaction was yes! “How dare you”
Then I remembered who i was.in Christ They can starve me, torture me, destroy my family, use the very freedom i enjoy to white ant my country and steal it from me . last of all they can take my natural life also. However praise God there is something i have from Him. They can never touch or harm that!
Yes He rules in the kingdoms of man and gives it to whomsoever He Will. He installed Saul and replaced him with David, He made Persia his battle axe to destroy the destroyer: Babylon.
He raised up the USA Great Britain to be Bible loving, Bible publishing, missionary nations, From within those nations the reformation flowered and spread the Gospel to the nations.
The best and only thing i can do about the decay of “the West” is to maintain my testimony, pray for my enemies and do good to them that abuse my God and I.
Friends as bad as it may look, our God knows His plan can not fail! He expects us to believe that.
Not just USA, but the whole planet is suffering and reeling to and fro like a drunken man. Lost it balance , perspective, sense of direction. and is spewing forth the vomit of vitriol and depravity against any one who dares to cry, Holiness Righteousness from the Lord.
God says the people of the earth are drunk from the cup of fornication from the great whore.
Here is the thesis and the antithesis
“Isaiah 24 17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth…………….. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and *after many days shall they be visited.
* last days
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.”
I say Amen, bring it on Lord. Surely it is not far away. Be mindful “Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.” the next person who is saved through your or my testimony may be that very last servant.
Brethren, let us get on with it. for no one else has the vision or tools we have been given, to do the work.
The question should have been: Can a 501C3 Church be an Idol?
The Institutional Church is the problem not the sinners; the sinners are doing exactly what they always do best…sin! But the American Church has lost its salt and the 50,000 churches in the USA have
shut their mouths, and not done their civic duty for the past 50 years. The fact is, it’s about money. They will not speak out against the evil of our government (socialization) because they will lose their tax exempt status. So they remaim silent and the evil continues until we lose our country entirely. Now, when a real Revival is in actual progress, an Iconoclast asks if Patriotism can be an idol and the ‘sheep’ say, “Yes” as they are lured away from doing their civic and moral duty.
God has by passed the so called Church and is pouring new wine into NEW wine skins.
The Tea Party is of God and is the beginning of a Great Awakening. The religious crew are being left behind.
Too bad, so sad.
God Bless America!
DPHeimbold, St. Augustine, Flordia
The Tea Party makes no claims to be a “Gospel” movement at all.
Therefore it cannot bring actual ‘Revival’ because the Gospel is at the center of all true Revivals.
The Tea Party only claims to be a Conservative Political and Social movement. I fear you are putting your eggs in the wrong basket if you are hoping for a spiritual ‘Awakening’ this way.
The full gospel – mightily preached thru the Holy Spirit – is required for every true Awakening. Ask George Whitefield!!
From comments I made on this article:
http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/2010/05/06/why-do-so-many-bad-things-keep-happening-to-the-u-s/
Why do so many bad things keep happening to the US?
Come on!!!
I’m not sure how to respond to that in a polite way. Is the writer ignorant of the rest of the world? When did a single “bad thing” in America result in the loss of tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousand of lives?
Such an Americo-centric view!!!
Compared with many areas of the world America has barely suffered in any way.
Nothing worse is happening in America than anywhere else in the world.
If anything America is getting off lightly compared to most of the world.
And please don’t confuse America with Israel and apply what God said to Israel to the USA.
America is not God’s chosen nation and the blessings/cursings applicable to Israel were not directed towards America.
If you want to see God’s word to America, search the scriptures for God’s word to the nations.
When scripture mentions “the nations” then America is included as ONE of those nations.
I see that one of the worst sins of the American people is NATIONAL IDOLATRY.
—–
Yes patriotism CAN be idolatry. The ideas that our particular nation is better or worse than any other nation and therefore require special attention from God are examples of that idolatry in action.
Note: Citizens of Israel are free to consider their nation will get that special attention from God.
I believe that patriotism can be idolatrous but no more so than arguing that chicomate cake is better than pie. If patriotism takes priority over seeking and loving Jesus, then yes, it can be idolatry. Whether America is pushing “light” or “evil” has nothing to do with idolatry. There are plenty of things out there that we as Christians make into idols that are good on their own accord. Take serving at church for example. Serving the church is a great thing but if it is in that service you find your identity, it has become an idol. To not pray for our country is not just a disservice to thy country but first and foremost a disservice to the grace of our Lord! When Paul wrote, he wrote to the Jews as a people group, longing to be with them and praying for them, even though he was serving the Gentiles. America is the people who make it up… Americans. To not pray for America is to not pray for it’s leaders and people.
I certainly believe Christians should be praying for America
-Andrew
Amen Brian…..Exactly what God was reminding me of….God holds the TRUE CHURCH/BRIDE responsible for the increased darkness of this world.
We are called to be the SALT AND LIGHT in the world.
America’s current condition of depravity is because of the UNFAITHFUL TRUE CHURCH.
And it will be the TRUE CHURCH that will receive judgment in this world. Which has already begun, but we are too blind and PROUD to see it as judgment upon “US”. It must be because of the heathen, or the apostates!
It was Israel’s unfaithfulness that caused THEM to be ENSLAVED. The majority of TRUE believers are enslaved to their sins and don’t even recognize it…..soon but for the grace of God, unrepentant true believers will be enslaved as Israel was.
Throughout the history of the world, there have been cycles of darkness or light. These cycles correspond to the SPIRITUAL CONDITION OF THE TRUE church. When the church walks in darkness, so goes the world; When the church walks in light, so goes the world.
That’s why the American church needs REFORMATION BEFORE THERE CAN BE ANY LIGHT IN THE WORLD(REPENTANCE & REVIVAL)
So whose responsible for the condition of the country/world according to God? THE TRUE CHURCH
A good example of this is Joseph. But there are many examples of God bringing Godly people into an unGodly government as salt and light, which enlightened the entire country. Even in today’s world, there are entire cities that have been transformed by God because of a few true believers who decided to give up all for whatever God desired.
STEPHEN ST. LOUIS…..God’s truth is a breath of hope.
Isn’t it amazing that in a group of “so called Spirit filled” bible believing people, that you were the only 1 to have the only right answer to every decision of a born again believer?
Comment:
IDOLATRY IS RAMPANT IN THE TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.
What is idolatry? When you DEPEND UPON(place your trust/faith in) ANYONE OR ANYTHING OTHER THAN GOD.
Jeremiah 17:5-8; Jer 9:4; Psalm 146:3; Psalm 118:8,9; Prov 3:5; Micah 7:5; 2Chron 16:7,9; 2 Cor 1:9, 10
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Why are believers blaming the sinners for the condition of this country? or for that matter, the condition of the “church” institutes?
The true church of America will not hear the truth, nor believe it. They will not believe that GOD DEMANDS OF THEM AS MUCH AS THE TRUE PROPHETS PROCLAIM. IT DOESN’T LINE UP WITH WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN TAUGHT BY MEN OUT OF THE SCRIPTURES.
Therefore, the judgments upon their idolatry will increase on the church first, and then upon the nation.
Amen Nita! Continue clinging to Him.
Our allegiance is to a Person! We must never be distracted from the simplicity of devotion to Christ Himself. God is a jealous God! He is THE WAY – not America or any other nation, nor any church “system”. HE is Truth – not America. HE is Life – not America. We cannot serve two masters. Our eyes are on Jesus and our thoughts are on Jesus. We are seated in heavenly places with Christ. IT IS IDOLATRY having anything or anyone else. Jesus did not hold allegiance to Jerusalem or the nation. Jesus did what the Father wanted fulfilling God the glorious Father’s will. Jesus was born in a country as part of God’s great plan and purpose (as are we). Jesus’s desire was for the people in the country to know Him BUT His total allegiance was to the Father!
Yes of course it’s idolatry, we are supposed to be citizens of another Kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven. The problem is, if we were doing what God commands us to do as citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven, we would be salt instead of the savour-less path lining we call the church today.
We say we trust God to provide for us and our family, yet we beg for money. We say we believe every word of the Bible, yet we are not laying hands on the sick, nor casting out demons nor preaching the gospel, which the above signs and wonders are supposed to follow.
We say we love our Lord yet we do not obey His commandments. When the Apostle’s were living this as of the day of Pentecost, it spread like wild fire! The USA are simply doing what Christ said they would do… Luke 17:26 “And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man…” Gross wickedness is abundant in every Nation. Christ is not coming back to bring in some New Age happy-clappy love and peace movement, He is coming back to take vengeance on His enemies. The blood will be up to the horses bridal, when will we all wake up to the fact that very very bad times are coming on the wicked, including the US and Britain. We can see what the world is doing out there, trouble is we can’t SEE what the Church is doing, except joining in on the fun.
Please do some research brothers and sisters! Everything is being controlled by demon led fanatics who span every nation. The USA are only fulfilling their part of the plan. Satan is the master of this worlds systems. We are supposed to RESIST HIM! Let’s not bash the USA, lets just remember that Christ is going to came back for His bride, meanwhile, we need to become salt again.
Gordon McGill http://www.revivalscotland.com
I see no problem with being patriotic,it all depends the extent because anything that substitutes Christ from his place becomes an idol.United States did not win the world cup but i would not see an American in his/her right senses supporting Agertina for example.Americans are defending their sovereign right by fighting terrorism.This is patriotism.May be we defer in defining patriotism.
Secondly we learn a lot from spiritual giants who once existed in America and I think the Lord has been so patient with America because of their late fathers who feared God.The generation in this century has no regard for godliness hence they approve of arbotion,homesexuals and even make them wed publicly.
Condoning such sins makes the nation an enermy of God.One would have thought if it was not for the legacy left by your fathers God would have burnt down America like he treated Sdom and Gomorah.
America repent and Lord will forgive you of all your sins.Amen
Onesimus wrote:
” And please don’t confuse America with Israel and apply what God said to Israel to the USA.”
And American Christians in particular, because they have bought into the media propaganda, have made the physical country of ISRAEL an idol as well, when scripture says, all the true called out Christians the world over are “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16)
Because true christians are children of the PROMISE.
Ahh yes, these are all good questions and I would have to say yes to the majority but as I ponder over some of these emails. I realise how easily it can be for all of us to get wound up in discussions and issues regarding the church.I personally beleive satans plan is to have christians involved in so much infighting within the church that they will be almost totally consumed and nuetralised to a point of not being available in any form or way for our father in heaven to use for his glory.
Lets face it, our priority should be about introducing the lost to the gospel of Jesus Christ!.This life isn”t about us, we already have the promises of God, he has a room in his house for all of us! We should count as joy to serve the Lord under all trials and tribulations and run the race of endurence as we are aliens in a fallen world just travelling through. Again free yourself from inhouse fighting and set your sights on Jesus and the great commission and be set free!
Terry58 wrote:
“Again free yourself from inhouse fighting and set your sights on Jesus and the great commission and be set free!”
Who’s fighting in this thread,Terry58?
I think what happens in politics is the exact same thing that occurs in apostate churches. Rather than the leaders laying down their lives for the sheep, the sheep have to lay down their lives for leaders – they are used and consumed as pawns to build and support the vision and empire of the leaders. This is just worldliness and carnality, plain and simple. Politics is exactly the same – the ‘people’ are used the exact same way. By far the majority of politicians (if not all) have their own self-serving agendas and vision, and their ideal isn’t in reality to serve the people of their country. Isn’t it more truthfully about the usual temptations of the flesh: wealth, fame, power, immortalizing themselves in some way?
Did Jesus concern Himself with the politics of the day? Did He ever express patriotism towards Israel, or plan activities that would defeat Israel’s Roman oppressors? Wasn’t the Roman oppression due to God’s judgment for apostasy? Did the apostles or the early church ever organize or manoeuvre to try to get rid of their Roman rulers? Not that I can find – all they did was to live quietly in the land and preach the gospel, irregardless of what was going on around them in the natural realm. The first time we see Christianity and politics merging was with Constantine, and we should be aware of everything that led to.
Watchful wrote:
“Rather than the leaders laying down their lives for the sheep, the sheep have to lay down their lives for leaders – they are used and consumed as pawns to build and support the vision and empire of the leaders.”
How very true. Something is terrible,terribly wrong with this picture.
They love you (and what you contribute) as long as you buy into “their” vision.
Yet, once you question “their” vision, you are cast to the side.
Absolutely. This reminds me of a portion of the book Radical by David Platt where he visits a church that had sponsored him in various ways. He tells the church’s leaders of his work with the poor nationally and abroad, and one of the deacons tells him (in all seriousness) that he would wish those people were dead. The book goes on to describe a service at the church — more of a “We are Americans, and we ROCK!” deal than zeal for Christ (at one point, the pastor threatens the congregation to pray for their children to become missionaries overseas unless they sponsor this guy in his overseas missions [leave the country?! what?!]… the “scare tactic” works…). Saddening beyond belief…
I wish Andrew would start a thread on “christian” charities and how the big ones are very,very, very corrupt. As, the enormous amounts of money they take in, go to pay for salaries, overhead, media etc. And a SMALL fraction actually gets to the people for whom it is intended.
That’s ANOTHER one of christian America’s “dirty little secrets”.
We like to “think’ we are so giving, but it’s all a big fat LIE.
Most of the “giving” in churches in America go to TITHING to their INSTITUTIONS we call CHURCHES!
When was a building ever hungry????
Oh, the carpet needs to be “fed”..Uh uh….
You can be charitable with your next door neighbor and no one has to know anything about it except God, because you ae supposed to do it unto Him in your “giving”.
That’s not to say that there are a “few” specific charitable ministries that are authentic. I have one such christian “charity” on my website which is legitimate, because it’s about getting the funds to where it is needed and then sharing the gospel the true way.
Btw, this is just a suggestion for a topic.
There is nothing in and of itself wrong with being patriotic, or standing up for America. I think we have an obligation as citizens to stand up and be counted. However, our thinking must also be biblical and clear. We must have discernment along with our patriotism. “Taking America back” is never going to happen by a change of adminstration, but by a change of heart.
As I read II Chronicles 7:14, the root of the problems in America come from a weak, Laodicean church that has become “salt that has lost it’s savor”,and is in the process of being trampled under foot by an evil and increasingly wicked government. We need repentance more than patriotism, humility more than activism, prayer and seeking His face, more than pursuing our own pleasures– to become a body of believers who are sanctified, holy, red hot and set apart unto God…people who are different than the world around us …God intended there to be a difference between Egypt and Israel (Ex 11:7). If there is idolotry to be spoken of, I think we miss the mark to focus on patriotism, but should instead ask the Holy Spirit to search our own hearts to “see if there be any wicked way in me”(Ps139:23-24). Start with our own lives before we point the finger at government, then we are on course to see God intervene…
JS wrote:
““Taking America back” is never going to happen by a change of adminstration, but by a change of heart.”
We aren’t “taking America back” and we never will. That is a myth.Our country as a whole, will continue to slide into apostacy.
However, the church of the Lord Jesus Christ made up of called out remnant saints, will ARISE in all her glory for all the world to see.
Our country will never be a “christian” country.
The TRUE christian’s kingdom is NOT of this world.
Do Firemen create more damage pouring water on a house fire
than the damage caused by the fire?
Christians, our ‘house’ is on Fire! That is, the God Blessed Country in which you live! There are only two Covenant Nations on Earth based on the Judeo-Christian teachings. Israel and the USA. God made a covenant with Israel. The USA made a Covenant with God by recognizing that all our rights ( and duties) come from God and not the State.
Now we are engaged in a great spiritual war between the culture of death and the culture of life. In the midst of this conflict we have been asked to come aside and ponder, ‘ Can Patriotism
become an Idol’ when most of the so called Christians will not lift a finger and recognize that the Tea Party Movement is a God given
blessing for couch potatos to get moving.
Contrary to Andrews assurtion that the Tea Party is not a Revival may I point back to the fact that during the Reformation of Martin Luther in the 1500′s there was the Anabaptist movement which started as a ‘civil’ protest where Anabaptists demanded that they be given the right to be baptised as adults instead of infants.
Also, the Baptism of John was a revival (repentance = going back to basics). It was Jesus, later, who Baptised with the Holy Ghost Pentecost), the great Awakening.
The Lord is preparing a new breed ( new wine skins) because the old wine skins are not capable of containing the new revelation.
They are stuck in the 501C3 mentality; seperation of church and state nonesense.
Your freedom, Sir, is on the line. It is time to encourage your followers to stand up for their God given Country and fight the anti Christ gangsters at the Voting Booth this November.
Let us pray for the peace of JerUSAlem!
God Bless America!
DPHeimbold
Andrew,
I think a better question is “Can Patriotism NOT be Idolatry?” Patriotism is just a nice way to say worship of country. Idols are not just those things you worship “more than God”, as some people think. An idol is anything you worship even a little bit, other than God.
If I sang songs to Buddha, swore allegiance to Buddha, took pride in Buddha or disobeyed Jesus in order to please or obey Buddha, you would rightly call me an idolater. Replacing Buddha with a country makes no difference to the idolatry.
To those who are appealing to the Old Testament, please read the New Testament again and study church history. For the first few hundred years of the church, you would have been excluded from baptism and the Lord’s supper for being a “patriot” (in the way that people commonly use that word) for anything other than the Kingdom of God. It wasn’t until Constantine tricked many Christians into abandoning their allegiance to Christ that the ideas that Christians could fight, be in government and love the things of the world became accepted as “Christian”.
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever. (1 John 2:15-17)
We all need to take this warning from scripture to heart. Jesus warns us because he loves us and because the danger he warns us of is real. If you love the things of this world, the love of the Father is not in you and you are still under judgement.
To those here who have said that the USA or any other kingdom of this world is or was “great”, “godly” or “founded on scriptural principles”, please go back to the Gospels and read Jesus’ words again and try to strip away any preconceived ideas you have. The USA, like every other worldly nation, is founded on rebellion against Christ and was from its very beginning. Claiming scripture as its authority doesn’t make a nation “Christian”, especially when it conveniently ignores those portions of scripture that don’t fit with its goals. Praying to Jesus doesn’t make a nation or a person “Christian”. When Jesus returns it will be to judge ALL of the nations. We need to make sure we are citizens of his kingdom when he returns and his kingdom doesn’t allow dual citizenship.
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. (James 4:4)
DP wrote – “There are only two Covenant Nations on Earth based on the Judeo-Christian teachings. Israel and the USA.”
My friend, if you really believe that, and members of the Tea Party believe that, then we are in a lot worse trouble than I thought.
Revival simply CANNOT come through politics. The true gospel mightily preached is the only thing that can save America.
Is it possible to have a “counterfeit” revival that is just a return to “morals” and Conservative ideals? Sure! But it is not a true Awakening. If Christians settle for that instead of a full spiritual Awakening then they have settled for a counterfeit.
America needs Jesus – not just a political revolution!
-Andrew
I am so glad that when God called for war, that David did not say “that it was not Christian”, I am glad that Moses took to heart when God told him he would go with him to war against the giants in the land that he listened to him. Does war solve man’s problems? No, but Ecclesiastics says there is a time for war and a time for peace.
I do not want to fuel the fire for more angry discussion here but, I am through with this topic. When God is done with America we will all know. Some of you are acting too good for your country. God did place you here. Pray for America until He tells you to stop. Fight the good fight til He tells you to stop. Vote with your conscious until He tells you to stop. Yes, there is great corruption in America and there is great idoltry in America but I am not going to have someone say your love for your country is idoltry. Even in Isreals rebellion God showed his great love for Isreal. Is the word Patriot a problem? Obviously.
A valid and needed topic. I’ve pondered at many of these questions. As a European, the amount of patriotism found in the American churches has been quite a surprise for me – however, we do have our own share of it here where I live, including pride and arrogance and a strong belief that our society is the best of all…
It’s essential to find the balance between appreciating what is good in our country / culture and worth maintaining versus making it the focus of our life. The Lord alone should be our Source of identity – no nation is perfect or without sin. Honestly, I am glad I am not an American Christian and in the middle of these political issues. I do vote and see it as a duty to be a good steward of the responsibilities I was given, but my faith is not in my own government or the EU – the amount of corruption and evil is hardly smaller here than in the U.S.
-Can Patriotism be Idolatry? (ie. Can our country become a kind
of ‘god’ to us?) YES
-Can Patriotism also become “prideful”? YES
-Is this a problem in the church today? 100% YES
-Will many Christians get mad if we question this? YES
-If we mix Patriotism in with Christianity, will it start to distort the
whole message and mission of the church? YES
-In other words, will we start to become “activists” not just for
Jesus, but for Patriotism too? YES
-Is it true that Hitler used Patriotism to manipulate the German
people – and whip them up to go to war? YES
-When we look at the movies, the TV and the music put out by
the USA – which dominates Western culture all around the world -
what kind of influence does the US have today? OTHER CULTURES EMULATE THE U.S. CULTURE
-When we look at this massive influence and leadership, does
she seem to be a force for ‘light’ or more for greed, sex, materialism
and spiritual corruption? MOST DEFINITELY THE LATTER!
-So is America mostly spreading ‘good’ or spreading ‘evil’ in the world? EVIL
-Why then should we “defend” her – as though what she is doing in
the earth is “Christian”? WE AS TRUE BELIEVERS ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT DEFEND ANY ANTI-SCRIPTURAL AND ANTI GOD BEHAVIOR NO MATTER WHO IS DOING IT, MOST ESPECIALLY THE U.S., BECAUSE WE ARE SUPPOSED TO KNOW THE TRUTH
One more point. Not to dwell too much on the issue of the current war, but I just remember when the present Iraqi war started in 2003. I was in the Middle East at that time, in a language school with many American students. Many of them were caught in the tide of patriotism – I was heartbroken when they were so keen to pray for the American troops in Iraq and completely forgot the fate of ordinary Iraqis.
I don’t want to offend anyone here, but how about if Americans praying for their troops would also pray for the Iraqi civilians, who are living in the midst of chaos and paying the heaviest price of the whole conflict?
Funny thing here (not really)! So many people on this forum are so concerned about the wickedness of patriotism and no one seems concerned about the wickedness of treason and hating one’s own country. Christians are told to pray for their government that they might live peaceably. You know I think I got it right earlier when I mentioned about America being Babylon. Many people on this forum have accepted this, I believe false teaching, and as thus, they have to also consider the scriptures concerning Babylon such as “this is the vengeance of the Lord, take vengeance on her!” YES! I think I got something here! So to you, the great wickedness is patriotism and to me the great wickedness is silver spoon in mouth, ingrates of the sixty’s and who’s children, who find it fashionable and cool to overthrow and hate their own country, to the extent that they have elected a hater of America to lead – traitors and treacherous ignoramus’s to the extreme. I think you have deflected your responsibility to leave the real problem, Babylon, the religious institutions who make people into bricks rather than lively stones and instead you have decided to make America the problem, rather than your false religion and traditions! You want to talk about the idols of Patriotism? The real idols are found in your false worship of God! God isn’t telling Christians to leave America, God is telling Christians to leave their religious institutions which has kept them captive and in bondage, making them bricks rather than lively stones. My suggestion to you, if you really think that the gift given us by France, the statue of liberty, makes us Babylon, then leave America and stop trying to take vengeance only, obey the full teaching of scripture regarding Babylon, leave! As for me, I left the real Babylon many years ago.
Robert Begnaud
I guess I disagree with just about everyone here. Can patriotism be an idol? Yup, it can. Are we to just sit in our caves and not be concerned that the nation is crumbling before our eyes? Are we to not be thankful that our constitution protects us from the sword of a tyrant? Are we not to care one way are the other whether we are dominated by liberal loons or conservative thinkers? I would hope that all the insanity would awaken the ‘church’ from slumber and sleep and cause it to seek God’s mind and purpose for His body in these last days. We have lost our saltiness. We are impotent. Why can’t we align ouselves with God’s word as He has set forth, and then have this conversation again? The whole dynamic would change. The whole perspective would do a 180. Let’s not fire off this and that and such and such when we the ‘church’ see through a glass that has been darkenned more than it should by our heresies and distorted views of His true intentions.
My honest answer, from the perspective of an Argentine:
I can’t find the quote right now, but somewhere in the Bible God commanded the Israelites to pray for the lands where they would be dispersed, because if the lands prospered, so would they. So in a way I believe it’s godly to love one’s country of origin, pray for it, work for social justice in it, and those who feel the calling, get involved in politics. But the Bible also says we’re citizens of another nation. And that has to be our priority, at all times. Whenever there is a clash between what the culture thinks (even what so-called “christian” culture thinks) and what God expresses in His Word, we have to “fight” culture by speaking the truth in love.
Patriotism is ok, as long as it is not blind or fanatical.
I don’t think the US is a good influence in the world anymore. It’s a far cry from the “city upon a hill” its Founding Fathers conceived. Most of the movies that are “exported” are mainstream Hollywood movies, full of violence and sexually explicit images AND language (the latter is worse bc with the former, you can switch the channel for a couple of minutes, but sexual content is everywhere, you can hardly find an innocent comedy anymore!)
Even Christianity (most of it at least) is a joke. Most of what we foreigners know about the American “christian” church is either the Religious Right (which is perceived as pharisaical, unloving, and too involved in politics) or the Word of Faith televangelists who basically want to take your money. The salt has lost its flavor, it would seem.
I have heard about Barna statistics on church goers and it’s very frightening. Considering the data, I would have to agree that Paul Washer is right in saying that most people who attend church every Sunday are not converted, not born again and doomed to hell unless they repent. Unfortunately, in Argentina things are not much better.
Let us not forget that behind most of what is called “culture” is the prince of the power of the air, the ruler of this world, the father of lies. Recently a law was passed in my country to allow gay “marriage” on equal terms as that of heterosexuals (including the right to adopt a child). I realized when I debated on the topic with some unbelievers that I had few arguments, apart from the Bible, to “deny” their “civil right” to marry. Of course I used the Bible as an argument and was called a fundamentalist (in the worst sense of the word). And the point is, unless you believe the Bible is the Word of God (and not a word written by men, which can be reinterpreted, as a Catholic person in the group said), everything is relative.
It’s getting more and more difficult to get the truth across. Only a miracle can get someone to repent and believe. Well, it was the same in Jesus’ time.
Of course it can, just like anything else: money, sex, image, family, doctrine, famous preachers of old, revival, even false perceptions of God….any and everything competes for the sole throne of our hearts. I don’t see patriotism in any particular realm of exclusivity as far as idolatry goes.
I keep reading about going to war and the examples given of Moses, Joshua, David, etc., yes and their mighty men of valor. We need to be thankful for them as well as for those who give their lives for their country. But, if I read the New Testament correctly, we are in a new working of the New Covenant. Jesus clearly stated that…36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” What kingdom, or country, should we be laying down our lives for? Jesus’ coming was to completely fulfill the old and bring in the new. The old was incomplete but Jesus came to complete it whereby God was able to write His laws on man’s hearts and minds. No longer on tablets of stone but of flesh. The old proved that one cannot legislate morality no matter what country it is.
Why are “Christians” so set to protest in changing countries. The remedy was given in Scripture for this. When Peter was put in prison was there a picket line out front of the jail? Did they take it before the magistrates? No they prayed. It is God who can change leaders’ hearts. Sadly, we have lost the art of praying to a concerned God who is completely able to do all that we ask or think. Do we honestly believe what we say we believe?
Paul says our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places. This is the realm we need to learn to do battle.
@Ruthinindiana – Moses was called of God. David was a man after God’s own heart and God commanded the battles they fought. If you dare to suggest that G.W. Bush (or any other American President) was God’s man, I will laugh in your face. There is no comparison there.
One more time, people, GOD DID NOT INSTITUTE THE US GOVERNMENT!!!!! Just because they inserted God’s name in their documents doesn’t mean He co-signed their efforts.
I believe that I mentioned praying for the country and those in authority already. We are to pray that they will leave us alone and let us live our lives before God in peace. I don’t hate the USA, Robert Begnaud, but I have no illusions about the country either. And FYI, most of those here already HAVE left the ‘religious institutions’ – that’s why were here.
The fact is, Moslem children have prayer rooms in US public schools while Christian children cannot take their Bible to a public school without censure. Homosexuals can parade down the street dressed in women’s lingerie and spout obscenities, but the Christians preaching on the street corners get arrested. Practicing homosexuals get ‘rights’ and protections, yet those who have walked away and rejected the homosexual life are fired from their job, harassed and even beaten up and NO ONE speaks up. ‘Christian’ nation? Not hardly.
Andrew, you are absolutely right about the ‘Tea Party’ movement – In fact, the Tea Party movement proves your original premise. People who consider themselves ‘good Christians’ are all caught up in their political activism, not even realizing that their leaders are no better than the ones they descry. All are corrupt. Glenn Beck is not a man of God, he is Mormon. Sarah Palin is a politician. Politicians know how to mouth ‘Christian’ values and rhetoric, but they cannot serve God and Mammon – and the political system they participate in IS mammon!
Let’s take this one step further.
The DOCTRINES and TEACHINGS that define our Patriotism as Christians, WHAT are they? And are THEY becoming breeding ground for idolatry?
Robert Begnaud, thank you.
Andrew,
First I want to thank you for your service to the body of Christ, it is greatly appreciated, God bless you.
To all,
I was in another conversation some time ago and wrote a small article to address that topic and it seems to fit this one as well.
I am fully convinced that the Church should be separated from all forms of government excepting the kingdom of God.
Luke 8:
5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
….14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
2 Timothy 2:4 No man that wars entangles himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who has chosen him to be a soldier.
We must be careful not to enter into agreements with the rulers of this world as we are the ambassadors of Christ. We can have no other alliance or we are compromised. Our citizenship remains solely in the kingdom of God as dual citizenship is not an option. As is the case with all men so it is with all governments “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. We are not called to form new governments nor are we called to make alliances with existing governments. Such things are carnal and do not pertain to the kingdom of God. We would be well within the call of disciple to bring to call the sins of any government which subverts justice and does not submit to the rule of God. These are those things which were primary to the formation of the Roman Catholic Church. The R. C. C. has been proof of the fruit of the whoredom which takes place when the Church tries to unite with another government as opposed to remaining faithful to Christ and the kingdom of God.
I will make my camp outside of the walls for I will not rest under the protection of another government. While outside of the city walls we are to call to those within the city to come out of her. Christ is my sufficiency and so it should be for all of his disciples. As disciples we should not try to legislate righteousness in this world but rather call men to repentance. Those who decide to remain in darkness let them. Those who wish to be set free most certainly will.
While we should remain separate from the world in our affections we must also respect and obey all authority as it is given from God. Below are some key scriptures verses to clear up our thoughts.
God tells us to let everything be established with two or more witnesses. Here are enough to show that we should be very careful what we say concerning Governments.
Romans 13:
1 ¶ Let every soul be subject to the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Will you then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and you shall have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to you for good. But if you do that which is evil, be afraid; for he bears not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, an avenger to execute wrath on him that does evil.
5 Wherefore ye must be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For this cause pay tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Jude 1:
8 ¶ Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, did not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, Yahweh rebuke you.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
2 Peter 2:
10 ¶ But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before Yahweh.
Also this one….
Acts 23:5 Then said Paul, I knew not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, You shall not speak evil of the ruler of your people.
Blessings,
Kenny
Seraphah wrote:
“Andrew, you are absolutely right about the ‘Tea Party’ movement – In fact, the Tea Party movement proves your original premise. People who consider themselves ‘good Christians’ are all caught up in their political activism, not even realizing that their leaders are no better than the ones they descry. All are corrupt. Glenn Beck is not a man of God, he is Mormon. Sarah Palin is a politician. Politicians know how to mouth ‘Christian’ values and rhetoric, but they cannot serve God and Mammon – and the political system they participate in IS mammon!”
Yep. You will know them by their fruits.
As christians,our kingdom is not of this world.
Politics is “of” this world and is corrupt. Completely. Doesn’t mean one is not thankful to God. But unfortunately America is going to have to be spanked to see this truth..
We also need to remember that to call our self a Christian IS a political statement. We are declaring we have a king and another kingdom.
Hebrews 13:14 states
“For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.”
And Phillipians 3:20
“For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;”
Christians were put to death is early Rome for refusing to swear allegiance to the state. Now some would say it is because of the worship of the Roman Leadership but if you read the early Church fathers there reasons were more around the fact they had no king, no ruler but Jesus. They bowed to none but God.
See the world understands that you cannot serve two masters which is why if you swear allegiance to any other nation, or serve in the military you lose your American citizenship save for the duel citizenship process. Yet Jesus did not say we could have duel citizenship he said you cannot serve two masters.
Patriotism is treason against God’s kingdom. This does not mean we are not good citizens here we are bearing the name of our Lord’s kingdom but it does mean we stop equivocating being American with being Christian.
I know many good people are upset with the way the US has been headed. You can see why the Tea Party would appeal.
But yes – it is a very bad “distraction” if people think this can solve the problems. They put all their energy into politics and activism instead of aiming for SPIRITUAL REVIVAL. Thus it distracts from the real cause.
The Tea Party has good motives and is trying to do something. But I believe it will actually take people’s eyes off the real solution.
-Andrew.
Wake Up Call
Our country has been blessed by God
But something’s wrong it’s really odd
We’ve turned our hearts to ungodly things
And turned away form the Lord and King
Rampant lust invades our land
Replacing God and his good plan
What ever idol we can find
We cling to fast with heart and mind
We now adhere to what we feel
We’ll ban his law, that’s no big deal
We’ll kick him out of public forums
That’s no big thing, we’ll just ignore him
Your obsolete views, keep to yourself
And keep that Bible on the shelf
The way I take is right for me
So don’t try to take my liberty
If I think I’m right that’s how I’ll be
You don’t live like you talk so don’t preach to me
Just look at all the religious frauds
Doing terrible things in the name of their god
And these so called Christians, the ones that I’ve seen
Don’t live like they talk and are selfish and mean
They preach to their neighbors of the right way to be
But don’t live like the words they are reading to me
They lie, they cheat, swear like sailors and others
I don’t see this unselfish love for their brothers
There is no difference, but they claim to know God
It’s all so confusing and I find it odd
Why would I be attracted to Him
They claim to be lights, but they’re pretty dim
Do as they say and not as they do
And they’ll mold you and shape you, before they are through
Just join my church and hear what we say
Don’t read his word, just do it our way
Don’t look at the greed and their worship of things
And the self serving gospel, the one that they bring
Just pray the prayer don’t repent, change your mind
and when you die it’s heaven you’ll find
This is what the unsaved have been hearing
A watered down gospel and no Godly fearing
Not hearing, repent for the kingdom is near
Just hear all the love parts and not shed a tear
Not that God will judge, if you don’t take his way
Of Christ’s blood shed for you and the price he did pay
Satan’s working overtime so we’ll take our eyes off Jesus
He’ll dangle every angle, just so he can snare and freeze us
It’s time to wake up Christians, the world in darkness lays
There’s many lukewarm folks around in these final days
The Lord will spit us from his mouth, if his heart we do not hold
Repent now and turn around, before our hearts grow cold
Return to the Lord, take the narrow path before the day is through
Prostrate yourself before the Lamb before He judges you
All judgment has been given unto God’s own Holy Lamb
He knows the ones that are truly his and the ones who are a sham
Go away from me I knew you not, the words I’d hate to hear
Well done my faithful servant are the words that I’d hold dear
Take up your cross and follow me are the words our Savior said
He died a gruesome painful death his precious blood he shed
He paid it all, he gives the call and to his side we run
Repent the days are passing fast, we need to seek the Son
Will he find us faithful, when he comes back to earth?
The Spirit’s calling all his own, the ones who have new birth
If you have the ears to hear, listen what the Spirit’s saying
And with God’s Holy awesome love, we better not be playing
All who call upon the Lord shall be saved and born anew
If you reject the love he gave, there is nothing you can do
Just turn to him with your whole heart, admit that you have sinned
Pick up your cross and die to self, and be filled with him
Put aside your selfish pride, trust Christ to save your soul
The only way is through God’s Lamb, who died to make you whole
The God who gave his only Son to die upon a tree
There is no greater love than this, His way to set us free
He is a just and Holy God, he cannot look at sin
When He looks at us He sees his Son, if we abide in Him
There is a heavy price to pay, for the breaking of God’s law
A righteous Judge just can’t close his eyes, and ignore the sin he saw
But He doesn’t see our sinfulness when our souls have been wiped clean
And through Jesus blood he paid the price, in Him we are pristine
Seek ye first His kingdom and store your treasure there
Live in his all consuming love and in his tender care
Walk close to him and let him guide, his love will never fade
God so loves us, he gave his Son, and with his life’s blood he paid
Death it could not hold him, for he is the Holy King
He rose from the dead and is alive today,
he conquered death’s cruel sting
No greater love was given for his death did pay the price
Accept the love from God above through his lamb sacrificed
To God be all the glory, his love will fail us never
And he’ll take us home to heaven, to be with him forever
Choose this day whom you will serve.
By Wendy J.
June 18, 2006
CAN PATRIOTISM be IDOLATRY?
-Andrew Strom.
I would really love your comments on this, as I believe it is an
important topic for the church in North America. Please give us
your thoughts on the questions below-
-Can Patriotism be Idolatry? (ie. Can our country become a kind of ‘god’ to us?)
Yes, patriotism, family members, money, jobs, etc. ~ anything that we place above God in our lives can be idolatry.
-Can Patriotism also become “prideful”?
Yes, patriotism can also become prideful if we place all our attention and focus on it and allow it to be exalted above our Lord
-Is this a problem in the church today?
Not that I’m aware of in the churches my husband and I have attended. Twice a year most churches in America have a time in their services when they observe Memorial Day honoring those who have given their lives and have served in the military. They also observe Veterans’ Day when those in active service and those who previously served are honored for their service. Neither of these observances go against Christianity because we believe we are a ‘land of the Free BECAUSE of the Brave’ and this is a time to honor and show respect to these men and women while giving glory and thanks to God for their many sacrifices.
-Will many Christians get mad if we question this?
Perhaps, but these questions certainly give us an opportunity to think about patriotism and its place in our lives.
-If we mix Patriotism in with Christianity, will it start to distort the whole message and mission of the church?
It could but only if we allow our patriotism to become our message and more important than sharing God’s love and redemption through His Son, Jesus Christ.
-In other words, will we start to become “activists” not just for Jesus, but for Patriotism too?
I believe our primary call from God is for us to be His disciples ‘active’ in sharing His Truths not our patriotism.
-Is it true that Hitler used Patriotism to manipulate the German people – and whip them up to go to war?
Why the Germans allowed Hitler to manipulate them into the horrors they inflicted during WWII is not something I’ll ever understand but I would not call it Patriotism. From our school studies, as I recall, the economic situations and social climates had a lot to do with their decisions to follow him. Hitler also had a strong influence over the German people to perpetrate attrocities against Jews and Christians as evidenced by the camps and slave labor he used in his war efforts. He attempted to create a ‘super’ race by his manipulation and control of sexual partners. Hitler is among the most evil men, leaders and tyrants the world has ever witnessed.
-Are there voices in TV and Radio today using Patriotism to whip up the Christians?
There are many strong conservative voices in the media but we as Christians should recognize those that would use ‘manipulation and control’. We should strongly reject these knowing the source is not from God.
-Do you think we can be easily manipulated if they appeal to our Patriotic Pride?
No, not if we know God’s Word and live by it recognizing that ‘manipulation and control’ come from a spirit of witchcraft.
-Now just a couple of questions about the USA–Is the US still a force for “righteousness” in the earth?
It is sad to say but the US is not a force for ‘righteousness’ in the earth as it once was. When Bible reading and prayer were removed from our public schools back in the 60′s our country began a downhill slide that has brought us to where we are today ~ abortions on demand; same sex ‘partners’ trying to legally marry; etc. Being ‘politically correct’ is accepted and demanded over being Biblically correct and obedient. However, America still sends strong Biblical Christian missionaries, preachers and Bible teachers out to every corner of the world so in that respect, I believe we still have an influence for ‘righteousness’.
-When we look at the movies, the TV and the music put out by the USA – which dominates Western culture all around the world -what kind of influence does the US have today?
For the most part, these movies, TV programs and music have a detrimental influence around the world. But, once again, there are also good wholesome Christian movies (ie The Jesus Film translated into many different languages) and TV programs being sent out and some good Christian music – however, these are in the minority and not the majority.
-When we look at this massive influence and leadership, does she seem to be a force for ‘light’ or more for greed, sex, materialism and spiritual corruption?
Sad to say, America’s influence is more for the ‘dark’ and less for the ‘light’ in the areas of influence and leadership.
-So is America mostly spreading ‘good’ or spreading ‘evil’ in the world?
America spreads ‘evil’ through immorality as seen in her movies, pornography, TV programs, music, etc. but she also spreads ‘good’ through Christian media especially Biblical preaching and teaching TV/radio programs and the thousands of Christian missionaries who are giving their lives for the cause of the Gospel.
-Why then should we “defend” her – as though what she is doing in the earth is “Christian”?
We should ‘defend’ her because she was founded on Judeo/Christian principals and she still reaches out to the hurt and hopeless; ie, the Haitians after their devastating earthquake; the tsunami in Indonesia; food and water aid to many other countries; medical aid including doctors and nurses to countries who desperately need these services and supplies. My husband and youngest son gave several years of their lives in our military to ‘defend’ our country so that we might continue to have the freedoms we enjoy today; ie, to worship as we choose; to freely express our opinions; to vote for whom we choose; to travel freely throughout our country, etc. America has never taken land where she has fought but rather, she has sought to aid and help defend those countries oppressed by tyrannical leadership. America has sent countless forms of aid to help these countries rebuild once the wars were ended. Though not all was done in the name of Christ, many, many Christians were involved because of their strong Christian beliefs and many Christian organizations were a part of these rebuidling efforts.
Evangelism and going to the nations continues to be a call answered by many Christians in America and that, is perhaps, the most important reason we should continue to ‘defend’ her.
Sir, you wrote “The full gospel – mightily preached thru the Holy Spirit – is required for every true Awakening. Ask George Whitefield!!” Did you know, Sir, that George Whitefield ministered to others BEFORE he was born again? Yes, from George’s own writings, we read this amazing incident: One day circa 1725 AD, George Whitefield was crossing Magdon Bridge in London when
a begger woman, soaking wet, fell at his feet and cried out, “I tried to drown myself in the Thames but a gentleman pulled me out! My husband is in debtors prision, my children are starving, I am beside myself.” Mr. Whitefield reached in his pocket and took out some coins and gave them to the woman. “Go and buy your children some food and then meet me at the prison.” At the prison Geoge Whitefield read to the husband and wife, John 3 about being born again. When we got to the verse where Jesus says,
“If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto myself…” The woman screamed, “I see it! Isee it. I am born again!!!~” and she began to dance and praise God while her poor husband was on his knees crying, “I can see the very flames of Hell. Oh, Jesus save me…” And suddenly he jumped to his feet and began to Glorify God and dance and sing with his wife. George Whitefield was amazed and thought to himself, “How can these two notorious sinners be born again in an instant while I have been seeking this ‘born again’ experience for years and have not attained it.” Six month later, Whitefield finally did get ‘born again’. (You see, Sir, that the early Methodists believe in ‘prevenient grace’; that God can use anyone, encluding an ass, to get His message out. Those stuck in their own
religious tradition will be left behind).
And as everyone knows, George preached in the 13 American Colonies, among other things, “One Nation Under God” and that began the 1st Great Awakening, followed by the Revolutionary War.
The 2nd Great Awakening was just before the Civil War.
Do not think our Communist Leaders in power in this Country will give up without a fight! If only the Proud Male Religious Leaders would humble themselves…but they will not!
Sir,You can not put God in a box! God’s drawing grace precedes the human response of Faith. Thus, God can use a civil
organization to do His will when for 40 years the USA ‘churches’
were sowing seeds to their own bank accounts!
There is a Revival going on right now preceeding a Great Awakening. Unchurched people are seeking, searching and crying out to God, and the establishment crew, the religious crowd are mad. “No, they cry. This can not be. It has to be MY way.” They will be passed by, Sir.
The Tea Party Movement is of God and, Sir, because of the hardness and greed of the male Pastors’ hearts (Prosperity Gospel, Seed Faith, 501C3 churches) the Lord is bringing this revival through the WOMEN!
God Bless America!
DPHeimbold
My friend,
When it turns truly into a movement of PRAYER instead of political activism, I will believe you.
sigh…….
I’ve often wondered why I felt odd about being patriotic. And often I’ve said, I don’t have to show anyone how much of a patriot I am. I could never understand why I felt uncomfortable, after all, I spent 14 years on active duty in the Air Force, etc. At any rate, now I know. This article as so much opened my eyes, not only regarding this country, but also the so called conservative television news and commentary.
Thank you so much for this much needed food for thought.
In The Spirit!
Heidi 144, I’m not suggesting this “thread”. What I”m referring to is the church in general. Its good to voice our opinion and question leadership as to keep them accountable but dont be consumed with that otherwise we will never be able to be available to be the hands and feet of Jesus.
I was born and raised in the United States and as such would not doing anything in and of myself to harm the country that I live in. I live here. So far, the United States has been good to me.
My ancestors may not think as I do, but I was not born in their time. God has chosen us for this time in history. As Mordecai said to Esther, “…brought to the kingdom for such a time as this.”
I don’t know anything about patriotic pride. In elementary school we were told to salute the flag. In vacation bible school one church where I taught said we were to salute the American flag and the Christian flag. I went along with the program. I don’t make vows, except my marital one.
People have crossed seas and deserts to come here.
We try to make the best of where we live.
Lucille
The ONLY reason God has been so gracious to us here in America is this:
Because so many of ISRAEL are HERE happening to reside in the country of the US.
That is why.
WE , the true blood washed spirit filled believers called out from ALL the tribes many, of whom reside here in the United States, are ISRAEL. As, they are also in other nations of the earth as well.
We are the ISRAEL of GOD as scripture states. The “born again” ones of Israel. Not the country of Israel but the US.Judah is in the country of Israel- Judah being of but ONE tribe of the 12 tribes of Israel.
But getting back to my point, where Israel goes, the Lord goes and He watches over ISRAEL.
ISRAEL is ALL over the world and God LOVES ISRAEL so that is why He has blessed her. And that’s why He has blessed this country.
Now, this will probably go over many people’s heads exactly what I am saying here, but it’s the TRUTH.
And ISRAEL is about to be judged AGAIN just as in the Old Testament times. ISRAEL has “sinned” and turned her back on God and now she is going to be humbled.
But NO political party activism is going to make a hill of beans. Because God’s kingdom does not come about by political persuasion but by His Spirit.
Heidi said:
“when scripture says, all the true called out Christians the world over are “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16)”
Maybe it would be wise to see:
a) What Galatians 6:16 actually says instead of projecting assumptions into it.
b) see the other 70 or so other references to Israel in the NT and see who those references are speaking about.
EVERY reference to Israel is refering to Israel the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Gentile believers have been grafted into their tree (from which some Jewish branches have been broken off) but they have not replaced or taken over Israel’s identity.
Also I am not American – and recognising what GOD has revealed about the continuing importance of Israel in HIS purposes has nothing to do with idolising Israel.
Maybe it would be wise to see what scripture ACTUALLY reveals about Israel’s continuing relationship with God – a relationship that has not been profitable for disobedient Israel throughout their history, but one which will bring glory to God when Israel finally recognise their Messiah as prophesied.
As I wrote, “this will probably go over some people’s heads”
Not going to argue with you onesimus about that “sacred cow” you are holding on so tightly to. They have a way of being radically snatched from our hands.
Buh bye
In response to the 14 questions:
1-9, yes
10 no
11 perverse & worldly
12 an entertainment-based friend of the world, spreading the “doctrine of devils” which translates out of the original text as “distribution of fortunes” Look up the Greek word “daio” in Strongs, for proof of my last comment.
13 evil
14 America is not Christian. We are under God’s judgement right now, that is why He has appointed the authorities that are in power. God hates the workers of iniquity, and He is angry with the wicked everyday. But His concern is with the bride of Christ, and He will discipline and chasten the Church, as He see’s fit for His purposes. I am not saying that we are in “The Apostasy”, but we are for sure in AN apostasy, because for more than a century, we have drifted from the fundamental truths of the Bible, and these truths are way too hard on this worldly, materialistic, entertainment-based population of building/program attenders that call themselves believers.
>>Can Patriotism be Idolatry? (ie. Can our country become a kind of ‘god’ to us?)
**If we let it.
>>Can Patriotism also become “prideful”?
**If we let it.
>>Is this a problem in the church today?
**None whatsoever.
>>Will many Christians get mad if we question this?
**Most Christians in the U.S. are unaware of Patriotism, so they most likely don’t care about that question.
>>If we mix Patriotism in with Christianity, will it start to distort the whole message and mission of the church?
**Unbelievable question. The whole purpose and founding of the United States was to worship freely and to spread the Gospel. The fact that this question was asked and phrased that way reveals a great mis-understanding of our history.
>>In other words, will we start to become “activists” not just for Jesus, but for Patriotism too?
**IF this is an issue, then nearly all of the Founding Fathers and those who fought and died for our Christian country was done in vein. Too many died for the freedom of the gospel for us to toss aside “Patriotism”. Patriotism is for a country that was built on Christian principles, dedicated to God and the spreading of His Message. We have forgotten this!
>>Is it true that Hitler used Patriotism to manipulate the German people – and whip them up to go to war?
**To place this question among these other questions despicable and not worthy of a response.
>>Are there voices in TV and Radio today using Patriotism to whip up the Christians?
**So what? CHRISTIANS FOUNDED THIS GREAT COUNTRY! Read the book, The 5,000 Year Miracle, and understand what our Christian ancestors created. Hello?
>>Do you think we can be easily manipulated if they appeal to our Patriotism?
**If we let it.
>>Now just a couple of questions about the USA- Is the US still a force for “righteousness” in the earth?
**Less and less, primarily due to Christians who have forgotten our heritage in this country and have become lukewarm.
>>When we look at the movies, the TV and the music put out by the USA – which dominates Western culture all around the world – what kind of influence does the US have today?
**The wrong influence of course, and primarily because the American Christians became luke-warm or fearful of man when the tide of evil hit our shores.
>>When we look at this massive influence and leadership, does she seem to be a force for ‘light’ or more for greed, sex, materialism and spiritual corruption?
**It depends on what each person wants to see.
>>So is America mostly spreading ‘good’ or spreading ‘evil’ in the world?
**America spread the gospel around the world like no other country in recorded history. Evil is present in every country.
>>Why then should we “defend” her – as though what she is doing in the earth is “Christian”?
**Because this country was dedicated to God, founded on Christian principles, and through it, God blessed the stagnant lifestyle and spiritual state of mankind until any other time in history.
We need to guide America back to her founding principles. To destroy the evil among us. Christians need to take their rightful place that God ordained to be part of and influence our government.
When we Christians do little or nothing, the evil seen in the U.S. is the fruit of our laziness.
Dear Brother Strom:
A Christian should be patriotic, yet humble, i.e. not proud of what we’ve become since our founding. Throughout the world we have…
*exported our ungodly lifestyles and pornography
*waged unjust wars for capitalistic expansion of the empire, and in 2001
*staged an attack against the Twin Towers in order to incite the masses and gain their support for an already planned war.
Is the US still a force for righteousness? Sadly, the answer is no. If specifically NYC, and generally the United States is Mystery Babylon, then the Iranians may have labeled us properly when they called us “The Great Satan”. Historically, when Israel turned their backs on God, our Heavenly Father allowed their enemies to divide and conquer his people.
Heidi said:
“As I wrote, “this will probably go over some people’s heads”
Well I am totally happy to let the traditions and lying doctrines of man go over my head.
I am more than content to believe God and His word.
WHILE I DON’T BELIEVE THE CHURCH SHOULD BECOME A POLITICAL ARENA , I DO THINK THAT PASTORS AWARE OF POLITICAL CONDITIONS THAT WOULD BE NEGATIVE TO CHRISTIAN IDEALS, SHOULD SPEAK OUT TO THEIR FLOCK. I THINK POLITICS SHOULD BE LIMITED TO A SHORT ( 10-15 MINUTES ) TIME IN SERVICE , BUT MAYBE WITH SOME KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT IS GOING ON IN OUR LOCAL AND FEDERAL GOVT. THINGS LIKE ABORTION , GAY RIGHTS , NAT’L DAY OF PRAYER, ETC.THE NEGATIVE SIDE WOULD NOT GET SUCH A STRONG FOOTHOLD! IF WE ARE NOT CAREFUL IN THE USA ,WE MAY NOT WORSHIP AS WE HAVE IN THE PAST ! A GOOD READ FOR CHRISTIANS IS THE PATRIOTS BIBLE. WE CANNOT KEEP OUR HEADS BURIED IN THE SAND ! PEOPLE TWIST MEANINGS OF THE CONSTITUTION DAILY ( SUCH AS SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE) AND CHRISTIANS NEED TO BE AWARE OF THESE GOINGS ON… IT WONT ALL COME FROM THE NEWS .
SOME OF YOU FOLKS WRITE ABOUT THE ” BAD ” THINGS GOING AROUND THE WORLD FROM AMERICA…. SO TRUE A FEW YEARS BACK A USA BIG WIG WAS AT A HUMAN RIGHTS CONVENTION OVERSEAS AND SPOKE AGAINST ANOTHER NATION ABOUT ATROCITIES COMMITED…. THE LEADER OF THE COUNTRIES COMMITEE SAID ..YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO SPEAK OUT WHEN YOU ABORT BABIES BY THE THOUSANDS DAILEY IN YOUR COUNTRY? TRUE ..SAD BUT TRUE ! WOULD THESE THINGS AND THINGS LIKE THEM HAVE BEEN AVERTED IF CHRISTIANS SPOKE OUT HARSHER AGAINST THEM …MAYBE AS FAR AS THE TWIN TOWERS ..FRANCISCO ..YOU HAVE PROOF OF THIS ? AND HEIDI 144 IS THIS YOUR BLOG ??
The following excerpts are what it is all supposed to be about. Then answer the questions for yourself.
First – from the Jesus Manifesto book by Leonard Sweet and Frank Viola (which by the way is chock full of stop-and-meditate wisdom) is this gem:
“God is not so much about fixing things that have gone wrong in our lives as He is about finding us in our brokenness and giving us Christ.”
Now that ruins the name-it-and-claim-it philosophy, and the psychological bent will get straightened, and the victim-mentality will get a needed wake-up call, and the making of patriotism into idol worship will dwindle.
Next – this is a daily devotional from T.Austin Sparks. Old time biblical scholar. This is what church is about for sure. Read and meditate:
Born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13).
What, in the thought of God do Christians exist for? What does the Church exist for? What do local churches exist for? There is only one answer. The existence and the function is to be an expression of Christ. There is nothing less and nothing more than that. Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and all between! Let that be the starting-point; let that be the governing rule and reality in all matters of life and work, and see at once the nature and vocation of the Church. This vast, incomprehensible heavenly system, of which Christ is the personal embodiment, touches every detail of life, personally and collectively. But remember only the Holy Spirit sees and knows how it is so; hence, as at the beginning, there has to be an utter submission to and direction by the Lordship of the Holy Spirit. What the blood-stream is to the human body, the Divine Life is to and in ‘the Church which is His body’. What the nerve system is in the physical realm, the Holy Spirit is in the spiritual. Understand all the workings of those two systems in the natural, and you begin to see how God has written His great heavenly principles, first in the person of His Son, and then in His corporate Body.
As an individual believer is the result of a begetting, a conception, a formation, a birth and a likeness, so, in the New Testament, is a true local church. It is a reproduction of Christ by the Holy Spirit. Man cannot make, form, produce or, ‘establish’ this. Neither can anyone ‘join’ or ‘enrol’, or make himself or herself a member of this organism. First it is an embryo, and then a ‘formation’ after Christ. So, all talk about ‘forming New Testament churches’ is nonsense. The beginning is in a seeing of Christ, and when two or three in one place have seen Him by the Holy Spirit, and have been “begotten again by the word of God”, there is the germ of a church. That, then, is the starting-point. But, how drastic that is, in the matter of reconsideration and recovery.
From: According to Christ – 1
Oh, my. These questions have been I think answered to me this year since the american elections. These are heavy on my heart as everything that I believed from the church, prophecy bible studies, were slanted by a group of unknowing christians authors, pastors that have allowed an apostasy to slip in. The rhetoric of the proud, gun-toters, proud patriots, the aggressive ways “christian politicians” rant and snark against their leaders. It’s like the center of the earth has spit out the frogs of revelation. There is a sense of hate in the internet airwaves and it’s coming from the christian sites.
The way reporters, news, media outlets express themselves, the bating, exagerations, downright lies, slander. Please tell me I’m not the only one who notices something evil has taken hold on many tongues lately. It’s like a virus, spreading. I believe that judgment is coming to those churches who preach politics in their sermons, endorse candidates, financially support candidates. This is a repeat of Israel during Jesus’ ministry. They were waiting for a militaristic leader who would expel the romans, and vindicate them in the eyes of the world. This is the exact attitude of some politicized christians who want a saviour candidate that will bring back American pride, patriotism, spirit, the way things were before so many had healthcare needs, and government aid. I am not for or against any political party.
But exposure of the motives of republican’s hearts (who claim their christianity on their sleeves) yet who try to obstruct social programs to those in desperate need. Who would rather cater to banking institutions than the poor, who are so worried that their taxes will rise, on their 30-something million dollar investments, is just so hypocritical it is disheartening. They state that government shouldn’t help, that we should rely on charity. While that is true, the economy is sinking and those who would give can’t. I cannot believe that so many conservative christian sites, not one, in the U.S., have spoken out. I can’t believe that no one will stand in the gap. They have one mind-set. Anyone for democrat is non-christian, and anyone against is a good christian. They encourage their brethren to buy gold, investments. They want to “own” the world before Jesus comes, and they actually feel entitled to it. No mention of repentence, forgiveness, just their usual legalistic mandates, (no abortion, pro-family). They seem to think that if one just fights abortion, then that one is the most wise outstanding christian there ever was. What about the death penalty. I actually read from a State newspaper that a governor who stood on an anti-abortion stance was for the death penalty. She actually was quoted as saying “Hang em’ high” in response to what justice should be implemented on some criminal case.
Am just wanting to hide in a cave and never come out. I’m afraid that the “falling away” is happening. And we could never have believed that maybe the church may in fact be the institution that ushers in the anti-christ system. Hopefully this fakery in some of these Kingdom now churches will be exposed and help more see the light. God help us all! In Jesus’ Name.
In the last comment, the description of the Church, per T. Austin Sparks, was excellent.
As far as Christians standing up, and speaking out, against society, where is that in the scriptures? Anyone ever read anything about Jesus, or Paul, standing up, & speaking out against the Roman government? 1Peter 2.13-15 ” Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme, Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by Him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with WELL DOING ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:”
Titus2.12-14, mentions what believers are called to do: “Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works”.
We are not to use the world’s methods to accomplish anything, but are called to trust in a sovereign Lord, who is aware of all things, and is in full control of all things. He always has been, and He always will be.
Wow – Jacqueline! You nailed some points with that one!!
Andrew, of course patriotism can be idolatry and prideful; anything can be, but the lack of patriotism can be catastrophic as well. You are right that voice in TV and radio are being used to manipulate people for causes that are questionable and I believe that we must prayerfully consider all that is being offered. You mentioned movies, TV, and music in the USA. The way I see it, that source of entertainment is being dominated by a minority group of people that have no morals. It happens because the main core of America doesn’t stand up and let their voice be heard. I think it is easy to sit by and say “Oh Lord, our country is losing its righteousness”, but if we are not willing to take a stand against such things, we are just as guilty. The reason there is such a massive influence from the voice of evil is because the “other” voice isn’t being heard. Absolutely, America shines forth with greed, sex, materialism, and spiritual corruption, but someone…somewhere…somehow must stand up and say…America is on the wrong track…let’s turn this around. Is that patriotism? Is that prideful? Is it a problem to believe in a good morals for our country? Let’s defend our right to get America back on track. Let’s defend the country that she is supposed to be. Let’s defend the country against corruption. Let’s defend who we really are!
We watch Glenn Beck and have learned a lot about our history that was removed from the text books. We are glad that he is shining a very bright light on the obvious Socialistic verging on Marxist campaign our government is working hard on forcing on the American citizens. HOWEVER, we also feel that the focus on God that he is bringing and the statements about Christ are more like a side dish to the main dish of patriotism. Since he is Mormon, that alone answers a lot of questions about how he is presenting the information. But the Bride of Christ knows that is is COMPLETE and UNADULTERATED repentence of the American government and the people of this nation….if My people who are called by MY NAME will HUMBLE themselves and pray (repent) and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, THEN….THEN…(and only THEN) will I hear from Heaven and heal their land. Strange as it would seem to Mr. Beck, he too is promoting a “socialistic” approach to solving the problems. IT IS CHRIST ALONE! Not Jesus mixed with the good ole red, white, and blue! IT IS ALL
R E D! HIS blood was, is, and will always be the only way of salvation and of solving any problem on this planet! It is exciting, however, to see how the END OF DAYS is upon us, and the call of the Bride Groom is going out to His Bride to COME OUT and meet Him! AMEN! Let’s go!!!!
Sir, You wrote: “When it turns truly into a movement of PRAYER instead of political activism, I will believe you.”
May I politely respond, “Faith without works is dead”. Prayer is more than saying words. Going to the ballet box and making a choice for a pro lift candidate is choosing Life. The Lord sets before us Blessing and Cursing and says, “Choose you this day whom you will serve”.
Prayer and political action are not mutually exclusive; they are complimentary. Example: “Lord, Candiate X believes in killing unborn babies, homosexual behavior, lying, stealing money from those who work and giving it to those those who refuse to work. Candiate Y is pro life, works and saves for a rainy day and gives
to those God puts on his heart. “Who, Lord, should I vote for?”
Here is prayer in action. My question to you is, “Why do you assume that those involved in the Tea Parties do not pray?”
My experience is, we do pray! We pray before the Tea Parties, after the Tea parties and always asking God to guide us and direct the path that He would have us follow in the quest to preserve America and the freedoms He has given all of us.
Did you know, Sir, that all prophecy is essentially political? Kingdom against kingdom; Good against evil; blessing against cursing. All prophets worth their salt, in the Old Testiment and the New and today, speak to Authority, Civil and Religious; to Kings, Presidents, Prime Ministers, Bishops, Pastors, and Teachers.
As you cross over from the Old Testament to the New Testament you see, immediately, Jesus speaking about the Kingdom of God. Then he instructs his disciples in how to pray, “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done.” We are not to be passive but to be active; to contest with evil at every level. Remember, Jesus left the Spiritual realm and became flesh and blood. He got involved in the political (Roman execution) and religious (bucking the system of his day).
On Judgment Day, (Matthew 25: 31-46) it all gets down to the nasty here-and-now.
“When I was hungry, did you feed me? When I was naked, did you clothe me? When I was thirsty, did you give me a drink? When I was in prison, did you visit me?” Nowhere, do you find Jesus asking how much you prayed!
Real prayer is Hearing from God…then doing (action) what He says to do. A war is going on 24/7 and we have to be doing our part in the Heavenlies and on earth. Our Founding Fathers fought and died to birth this Nation, a Christian Nation founded on the laws and principles of God. George Washington PRAYED AND FOUGHT. Now you seem to think that we should go like sheep to the slaughter and not fight the current war to destroy our nation. We have a God given responsibility to preserve the freedoms that were established by God and He has given us a peaceful way to go about that task. We are to take a stand against evil because we will be held accountable for our action or lack of it.
God has blessed America but our leaders no longer want God in our Nation. We will pay with our lives if we bury our heads in the sand and DO NOTHING.
God Bless America!
DPHeimbold, St. Augustine
I never said to do nothing and I never said not to vote.
You told me the Tea Party was a kind of ‘Awakening’ and I said that since they focus on political activism rather than Prayer and the Gospel, this cannot bring about a true Awakening.
We need more of JESUS, not more of Politics.
In fact, political activism can often be a COUNTERFEIT and a Distraction from the real work – which is the Gospel and prayer. These things alone can save America. Her problems are SPIRITUAL. So the solution must be Spiritual.
-Andrew
Dear Bro. Ignowski:
The proof you are looking for is to be found at http://www.infowars.com. A few years after the nine-one-one incident, I happened to be present in Madrid, Spain when the world famous Windsor building caught fire. The fire raged all night long until it was extinguished in the morning. The skeletal structure remained intact, and why, you may ask, did it? Because since their inception, skyscrapers were constructed to survive accidental aircraft impacts and the resulting fueled fires. Bottom line: nine-one-one was an inside job.
Anytime you put religion and carnal power together, the results have been, well, unsavoury. Bibles confiscated under threat of death, inquisitions, witch hunts, pogroms, torture chambers. Why? Ironically it’s because people actually start to think they are innately good, innately deserving. Self-righteousness. It’s a false gospel, a deception.
The fact that so many Christians are turning to governments and politicians to help preserve their wonderful comfortable way of life, tells me they have lost the gospel which alone can change hearts through Jesus Christ and are serving another god, a carnal one. They are not interested in changing hearts, not concerned about the lost souls going to hell, they are concerned with their own self-interests, a nice way of life for them and their children, and are willing to force others through legislative powers and threat of punishment to accept “family values” whether they want to or not in order to do it.
But where the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom – so I have to take it that the spirit of the Lord is not with them. I understand their fear, but fear is not of the Lord. It is not He who has given them this fear. If we see judgment pending, instead of rising up in ‘self-righteous’ indignation, we ought to humbly bow our heads and acknowledge that we deserve it, that God is righteous not wrong, and repent and turn from OUR wicked ways, and then maybe He will heal our land, or at least remember mercy when His wrath comes. It is He who is to be feared, not the wicked.
God’s way is the gospel, freely received and freely given, Jesus did not come to lobby the Israeli/Roman governments, or denounce the prostitutes, tax collectors and adulterers in that wicked generation. He came to die for all those sinners. Shouldn’t we be of that mind also in this wicked generation? Isn’t that the Way he bids us follow? Oh Lord, make us willing!
Who was it though that He did denounce? Wasn’t it the Pharisees who ‘lobbied the government’ of that day against Jesus because in their deception they deemed Him a sinner, and themselves not?
Alright, this is it! You are not going to tempt me to say anymore, my last post! And by the way you are welcome RuthInIndiana! So everyone claims that they are Christians here? We have left wingers here who claim themselves to be non-political and we have right wingers here who defend America to varying degrees. Yet we are all Christians with the same mind of the Spirit, right?, yet we obviously speak different things! It is tough for me to hear people talk on this forum and I know that they are politically and biblically ignorant and smug about it to boot. If we are really Christians here, than we got a real problem Houston, we are lacking wisdom, which begins with the fear of God! In Isaiah 28 – 29 the prophet talks of a people who’s fear of God is taught according to the precepts of men and who’s Word of God is precept upon precept – line upon line – here a little there a little – rather than the Word of God becoming alive in our hearts. Many Christian teachers claim that precept upon precept is a good thing, I don’t know how they come up with that, seeing the text it’s self claims that there is vomit on the floors and drunkenness so that we bump into one another and stagger! We certainly stagger and bump into one another here! The only thing I can suggest, is each of you must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, rather than the fear that is taught according to the precepts of men, we need wisdom and there is only one source for all truth and wisdom, may God have mercy on our souls!
Robert Begnaud
I hear the Christians who appreciate the historical values on which this country is based. Theoretically they are great however we have not lived up to those standards and continue, as a nation to fall further and further away. If you have the chance you should check out Cindy Jacob’s Route 52 prayer intercession. Christians have researched the history of each state and are standing in the gap repenting for serious sins and errors that have been committed by our founding fathers from the beginning. We have been on a downward spiral long before the Wall Street crash of 2008.
There is nothing wrong in loving your national family but as with all families there is some dark history. If we are a nation of Christians, we as a whole then can then view ourselves as chosen people of God; as are all Christians. Jesus said God sent Him for us and He would not let Satan pluck us from His hands so in this sense, yes, we are chosen, special and set apart. This however does not make us exempt from God’s plumb line. Some place in time we moved from the Christian understanding of sin, repentance, humility and being a part of the great church to America being synonymous to Christianity. From that we went to the Republican Right equals Christian and Liberals equal satanic. Therefore what the Republican Christian Right in this country states as right is Right and shouldn’t be questioned. If you do, you are an enemy of the State and therefore God.
God said He gave us Israel as an example. So what do we see? That even God’s chosen people can stray so far from his precepts that He has to reach out His hand and severely discipline them. Remember, the only people Jesus physically disciplined during His earthly stay were the Jews in the temple. Think about that! God’s love for us does not exempt us from our humanity. We are not and shall never be the perfect example of anything Christian. We are not equivalent to God’s standard of goodness and light…Jesus is. At most we are a large gathering of Christians who should be very conscious and careful of the image we portray because we loudly and often claim our Christian status to the world. We are not bearing good fruit and we have become mongerers. How long do we think God will wait on us to humble ourselves and repent before rendering judgments?
Personally I believe the underlying root cause of our current status is Mammon and the love of our sensual comfortable life style. You touch our stuff and you may die. Look at our handling of health care for example. People stated out right do not touch my stuff or I will shoot you; the poor will always be with us; I worked hard for my stuff and those who don’t work don’t deserve health care; etc. Instead of having meaningful dialog, people came to town halls to yell and threaten. It was hateful and I was ashamed of my country before the world! They did contribute in any way with intelligent dialog or ideas. Better yet, where was the joining together with prayers for God’s wisdom in our national crisis; what you would expect from a bunch of Christians in crisis! Patriotism seems to be a guise for hoarding, classism, greed and fear.
Robert – I think there are hardly any “left wingers” on here.
Personally I am a true Conservative. Most of us are.
But we just think the US church has a problem with “Patriotism” getting mixed in and distorting Christianity.
Many Christians are so busy fighting a “war” against Liberals in the physical, that they forget the problems are basically all “spiritual”! JESUS is the answer to what ails America. Politics will never do it. By all means vote, but to spend months on “campaigns” for this cause or that cause – yelling and screaming at people in a most ungodly way – what is this achieving?
All of this is a terrible distraction. JESUS is the only way. HIS cause is the only one we should be “fighting” for. And HIS answers are the only ones that will save America.
-Andrew.
Cookie – that last paragraph of yours was sad and profound at the same time.
-Andrew
Robert Begnaud –
2Ti 2:3 Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs-he wants to please his commanding officer.
Jos 5:13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”
Jos 5:14 “NEITHER,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”
God’s spiritual people likewise should not take sides. We ought only to be on His side, serving only Him, not our own self-interests. If the Lord has determined judgment for America, for her to be handed over to her Islamic enemies – no amount of politicking and protesting will stop it. Only repentance can. My goodness, America herself has voted in a Muslim (in his heart) President for herself while in the middle of war with radical Islam! A mosque is about to be built within 600 feet or yards (?) from where the World Trade Centre once stood? Shouldn’t we be asking ourselves why the Lord Himself is allowing all these things? When things go against reason and normal logic, you have to know it’s because there is something very spiritual going on.
Do we realize He loves Muslims as much as He loves you or I? After demonstrating in the streets against Islam, against an ‘Islamic’ President and his policies, and declaring them all our enemies, could we now pray for the Lord to bless them, could we now lovingly present them the gospel, in which alone there is hope? Are we able to truly love our enemies and leave all judgment up to the Lord, and simply do His bidding irregardless of circumstances in the natural? I’m not judging you or the Tea Partiers, I’m not sure I can honestly claim my own heart is truly where it should be in this regard, however, I do believe with all my heart that this is what Jesus taught and demonstrated to us in His life, and that this should be our aim..
..we wrestle not with flesh and blood.
Boy reading all these “stories and views” is really something. Questions were put to “think about” and yes even make a comment or two. Yet what I read was so so many “opinions” We see what is happening in the world and we all have comments – including myself. Yet that can also become an “idolatry” Jesus spoke but it was always what He heard from HIS FATHER. Most of us are speaking from experience and what we have heard , seen, believed , and continue to experience as these things become more and more prevalent in our nation. Right , wrong or indifferent, what we see is not what the Father nor Jesus is seeing. And they are not being as “vocal” in the opinion department as most of us are. I am not saying to keep our thoughts to ourselves all the time but the answers to Andrews original questions were a YES or NO answer and one that we should go to the Father for so we can also search our hearts and PURGE what is NOT of HIM . I am sure we all have been a victim of Patriotism. before God somewhere in our lifetime. We do things, say things or (did things , said things) chiming in with others and singing songs because we LOVE and are PROUD to BE AN AMERICAN. Just like the song says. One by one our freedoms are being taken away and it will hit everyone in the pocketbook to the heart of self. We will learn to run more and more to the Father because that is where the “true” freedom is. And more and more our “opinions and thoughts” will be stifled and we will have to learn to pay more attention to what the Holy Spirit is showing us and less time speaking our thoughts — they must become HIS WORDS. And we can not “presume” So, to Andrew, thank you for such deep thinking questions to search our hearts about .
And by the way, anyone that is searching the Lord and wanting to HEAR HIM can see that politics has become just like anything else ——-it is worldly. That in its self is and has become more and more of an idol to campaign and spend so much money on “attack campaigns” and there are Christians that are just as guilty as one can see for themselves in and out of the arena. God will do with this country what HE CHOOSES. It is our duty to place HIM FIRST and allow HIM to do the rest. We must pray and so often we pray for things NOT IN LINE w/ HIM but maybe our prayers are more in line w/ our own self. —- Now that is just a thought!!! I have been guilty at times and know that I have to release so much that has been taught throughout my life. It is a process.
Dear Watchful:
Thank you for a well written assessment of our plight in the world. It’s not about Republicans vs Democrats because they are two sides of the same coin. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
I understand your position on not taking sides, but if we are on the Lord’s side, then surely you’ll agree that when it comes to the voting booth, we must vote our conscience, lest we be charged with the sin of omission. Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. Matthew 22:21
Yes, amen, I agree Francisco – even in voting, whether to vote or not to vote, or who to vote for, we need to be led by the Spirit, knowing we’re participating in His purposes and not out of self-interest.
I don’t live in the U.S., and in my country’s last federal election I was not led to vote, even though one candidate was “Christian” and won the election. I came to believe later however that he has aspirations for a piece of the N.W.O. pie, and has attended Bilderberg meetings. So, even though I agree with some of his and his party’s conservative policies, and on the surface he looks pretty kosher, I’m glad in this case I didn’t have a hand in electing him. You’re right, they are all part of the same coin now. Unseen forces at work for sure, it’s like a tide coming in that no-one can stop – but all foreseen by God and spoken of in the scriptures. So the only ‘side’ to be on is the Lord’s. He told me the other day that He is our safety.
…just another little thought – we are to be so far removed from the ways of the world, since we are not of it, that we are not even supposed to ‘go to the law’ one against another when we have a dispute, but rather bring the problem before the church. We should be willing to suffer loss and injustice rather than seek legal repercussions against a brother/sister in the Lord, according to the scriptures.
God blessed America as long as her people and leadership blessed Him and used HIS Word as the guiding principles from which the people were governed. As Americans, we have long ago abdicated any position from which we were ablt to claim our existence as a Christian nation. The single defining issue that announced to the world that we had rejected HIM was our legislative approval and funding of the shedding of innocent blood. This one thing that God has considered an abomination from the beginning of time starting with when HE asked Cain where Abel was and told Cain that Abel’s innocent blood was crying out to HIM from the ground. The politcal will of the people that permitted, funded and built an industry around the killing of over 50 million unborn babies since the passage of Roe vs Wade stands alone as testimony that America has earned the label ‘world’s most idolatrous nation’.
As for partiotism, no child of God should ever claim any allegiance to anything that opposes or exalts itself against God. This includes any government that is actively funding the demonization of it’s citizenry as America is by delighting in unrighteousness and having pleasure in them that do so. Hello Hollywood!
What fellowship does light have with darkness? The admonition of the Father to “be not unequally yoked” applies to America and it’s narcissistic and hedonistic lifestyle and message that it is evangelizing the entire world with.
Our citizenship in HIS kingdom alone should be enough for us to stand up and say, “Father forgive us” and join with the spirit of John the Baptist in saying, “Make straight the way of the Lord.”
yes to all the above questions. However, I see that thru all that’s happening to our country, many Christians are waking up from their slumber and complacency.
I believe the Lord soveriegnly formed this nation, and it, along with all of earth-the earth is the Lord’s and the fulness thereof. We now have the opportunity to let our light shine in the darkness.
I thank you Jacqueline, Cookie, and again, Seraphah, that you have put my thoughts and concerns into words. My husband and I had thought we were alone with the hatred and greed of those who claim that unless we proclaim Republicanism, we are NOT Christians. Praise God that He has another Kingdom that is not of this world.
What has happened to discernment and being Berean? We must inspect the fruit that is borne upon every tree that claims Christianity growing from it’s root.
Hi Brother Andrew…Due to my schedule i don´t get a chance to participate on the forum very much. But i want to weigh in on this one very briefly with just enough words to make my point. This topic has already been discussed in depth here, and there is little that i can add to it.
According to Merriam Websters Collegiate Dictionary, the definition of “Patriotism” is….”Love or devotion to ones country”. So according to this definition, (which i beleive is a very accurate definition) the more a person loves the country that they live in, the more patriotic they are. On the other end of the spectrum, the more a person loves God, the more godly they are. It is as simple as that. It dosn´t take a rocket scientist to figure out very quickly that “Patriotism” is THE BIGGEST idol of all time.
Now i am going to say some things that if i were to say them in the average church, they would stone me with thier song books, (oops, i forgot, they don´t have song books anymore, they threw the old hymn books out many years ago). To get to my point. If these things be true. If indeed, the correct definition of “Patriotism” is a love or devotion to ones country, (and it is), then it stands to reason that any christian that is involved with the political system of this world, (whatever country it is) is involved in idolitary up to thier eyeballs, big time. I don´t care if it is Sarah Palin or Ron Paul of the United States, or Valdimir Putin of Russia, they are all idolaters immersed in a system of idolatery over thier heads. Yep, brother Andrew, this subject will definitly raise the ire of a lot of “christians”. This is one idol that there won´t ever be many christians that are strong enough, or mature enough to walk away from. If a christian walks away from this one, they are going to be standing alone among millions of people around them.
Now i want to say something that will really get me in trouble. If you are a christian that belongs to one of those “home milita groups”, or thinking about joining one, then get away from it, and run from it like you are running from the devil himself. There is no way someone can belong to such an orginization such as that, and still measure up to the biblical definition of a christian. There are many, many other things, but i am just merely using the home milita groups as one example.
The only involvement that a christian needs get into with the government is laid out in Romans chapter 13, and other scriptures where the bible exhorts us to “obey the laws of the land”, “pay our taxes, to keep from offending them, and “pray for our government leaders, and law enforcement officials.” I could write a book on this subject, but i just wanted to take a few moments to weigh in on the conversation. Blessings to all that love the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus simply says: MY KINGDOM is NOT of this world!
every nation is controlled by politics. The definition of politics:
Poly means “Many” and Tics are “blood sucking creatures”.
Come Quickly Lord Jesus
What is patriotism?? Do you remember where Star Spangled Banner came from. These men who gave their lives to keep the flag of freedom standing. The people who started this country left England because they couldn’t worship freely. King George told them how to worship HIS god so they searched for land where they could be free from tyranny, and died to keep it free from tyranny. Isaiah, Nehamiah, Ezekial, Daniel, all the Prophets were patriots, they loved Israel, God gave them that land, they fought and bleed and died for that land…..Next year in Jerusalem. So isnt Patriotism in its truest form really a God given passion??? We as Christians. shouldnt we fight for what God has given us, our home, our land, our God given rights, to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness?? Isnt this who we are in America, Isnt this what we stand for as Christians?? Do we lie down and let it all be taken away from us??? If God wills for us to fall then so be it, but do you know what His will is for America?? Our country has fallen so far from who we were. We as Christians stayed silent and lived our lives as the world took over. We stopped caring, we just wanted Jesus to come back, we started listening to wackos 88 reasons why Jesus is comming back in 1988, started buying their books, started to move away from what our Fathers died for, morality, and true holiness. When do we start to be patriots again??
-Can Patriotism be Idolatry?
YES
-Is this a problem in the church today?
YES. Think about how the christians churches support the nation of Israel in his PRIVATE war…
That is PURE patriotism and dangerous idolatry.
-Will many Christians get mad if we question this?
True christians wont. False christians, yes.
-If we mix Patriotism in with Christianity, will it start to distort the whole message and mission of the church?
YES.
-Is it true that Hitler used Patriotism to manipulate the German people – and whip them up to go to war?
It’s false.
-Now just a couple of questions about the USA-
-Is the US still a force for “righteousness” in the earth?
Not anymore. IT WAS untill WW2. After that, USA did EVIL, till today. USA and RUSSIA were BOTH used by God to deliver the WORLD from the Nazism/Fascist treath. Then USA started a nonsense global war against communism. God umiliated the USA with the Vietnam war. Did we learned the lesson? I think we didn’t yet.
-So is America mostly spreading ‘good’ or spreading ‘evil’ in the world?
Most spreading evil. But the wind is changing…
There is some evidence to suggest that the Iscariot surname was linked to the sect of the Zealots, the patriotic Jewish resistance movement that expected the Kingdom of God to be a political and geographical entity, not a spiritual or heavenly one. Many scholars believe that by betraying Christ Judas never intended to see him executed, but that he tried to force negotiations between the reluctant Messiah King and the Sanhedrin in order to speed up the inevitable coming of God’s Kingdom and the Jewish liberation from the Roman yoke. This would explain Judas’ incredible disappointment and regret when things did not go according to his plan. If this is true, then it means that Judas’ great evil had to do with a confusion regarding the nature of God’s Kingdom. Put differently, he was first a patriot and then a disciple. It makes sense, for in Judas we see a picture of the Antichrist. The Antichrist will be a deeply spiritual person, but he will promote a type of global patriotism that will deny the spiritual nature of God’s kingdom, which is why people devoted to their flags will find him so appealing.
Tobie well said :) People love and treasure tradition and culture more than the freedom we have in Christ, most likely because they have never truly experienced it our understood it. In Christ Alone My Hope Is Found
Not only can patriotism be idolatry…..in the church that names the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. it is but one of the FRONT sins that people can point out about the “sins” of the Lord’s church.
The Lord wants to get at the underbelly of His church’s sins.
The church is idolising CHRISTIAN LEADERS and they are living off and promoting stale OLD MANNA instead of getting fresh, straight from the throne manna for the church.
“When is my church going to realise, says the Lord, that you are NOT to rest on past glories and be “fed” from that, but you are to be getting fresh manna from Me?”
The Lord is not happy with OLD FOOD. Old “gathered” food produced WORMS.
Those who only teach from OLD manna are not experiencing My fresh anointing because they are relying on past glories and old sustinance.
THE POWER of the Holy Spirit WILL NOT COME UNTIL man comes to COMPLETELY rely on Me. COMPLETELY.
I am breaking, saying the Lord, your PRIDE. And you wil not like it. But it is for your good so that you will be broken vessels that can contain my PURE anointing OIL of my precious Holy Spirit.
Prepare to be broken, those who think they “know” what the churches “sins” are, but in reality, these “sins’ are but “surface” sins, covering up the TRUE sins of my church……..and the number one issue with MANY of my callled leaders is PRIDE.
Prepare to be broken says the Lord.
I think for all the Americans that are so proud of their country, the land of liberty and freedom, I wonder what would happen if true, undefiled Christ followers were to rise up. You know, someone like Stephen in the new testament. I would venture to say if someone with the true power and love of God started going into our nursing homes and hospitals and started praying and seeing people healed, the government would put a stop to it pretty quick. We say we have freedom, but has any true power filled christian really put it to the test yet? I include myself in this statement. I would love to do what I just said. I don’t think christians have become radical enough for our government to get worried about. They’ve become used to fighting christians in the political circles, but what would happen when they’d have to start fighting us in the spiritual realm? I don’t believe they would stand for it. And to the poster who has 2 children in the military, how do you justify “thou shalt not kill” when their government has ordered them to do just that if the need arises? Jesus came to show us a new way, that is why we do not see one war in the new testament with the exception of Armegedon.
Funny when other countries are patriotic we call it nationalism when we are we call it patriotism.
There are way to many American Christians and not enough Christians. Way to many, American Missionaries and not enough Christian Missionaries. This Nationality first, before faith, is the reason why so many doors are closing to the American church and American Christians.
As a missionary I find myself always in a race to preach the gospel and counter the American culture, Hollywood, fashions, trends and the media as it subverts, seduces and destroys foreign nations with its evil culture. It is easy to confront pagan culture in the third world, it is nearly impossible to destroy the evil influence of American media and TV on these same cultures.
Christians on the Warpath
To all my fellow siblings in Christ:
I have witnessed a growing trend among Christians over the past few years which has concerned me. The onslaught of news articles, emails, TV programs, radio, and all other forms of unmentioned media, by Christians to other Christians which call for “activism”. Every week it seems I hear more and more about the state of our nation and how Christians need to wake up and “take action”. Boycotts, petitions, phone calls to legislatures, street protests, etc. are being promoted as ways to “take back our country”.
I agree some of these actions are necessary to ensure protection for the innocent and defenseless, but have we taken things too far in the wrong direction? An article I recently read made me stop and think for a while. In the article, a homosexual journalist compared Christians and discussing homosexual issues, to the KKK discussing racial issues. The article went on about how absurd and hurtful this comparison was, but I got a different feeling. It pains me to know that those who are hurting so badly would rather go anywhere else besides the church to find help, hope, and acceptance.
We might claim that we want to preserve the USA for our children, a very noble desire. However, if we are so much on the warpath that those who need us the most are turned away so quickly, what kind of a legacy is that for our children? Indeed we must model for our children how to behave towards those who seek to oppress, persecute, and destroy us-namely, continuing to serve and pray for them in humility and love. We are not showing Jesus to others by boycotting stores, and we are not defeating Satan by protesting in public. Both parties seek the hearts and souls of people, which is what our focus should be as well.
It is inconvenient and upsetting to be confronted by blatant sin when passing billboards or watching TV. It is frightening to think of American pastors being jailed for speaking truth. It is frustrating and worrisome to see the country we love so dearly succumb to peer pressure (both from the inside and out) in the form of policy and ideals. It is extremely disconcerting to see such rampant sin in our fellow countrymen. But let us consider two facts: One, there is nothing new under the sun, and two, we are all sinners.
Let us not despair, but change tactics. History has proved many times over that human hearts cannot be changed through policy, nor is it wise to try. Instead, let us strive to turn the other cheek when persecuted, be compassionate to all who need it (not just those who seek it), and to pray always. Policy cannot change things, but love can and has.
Why does the American church send more boys to the military (clearly an evil environment) than it does to the mission field? As a former paratrooper / Special Forces soldier, I can promise you that the military is not the optimum place for young Christian men in the formative years.
As a missionary in Asian,, I assure you in the harvest fields is where our men should be at work during these formative years. We should learn from the Mormon cult and send our young men into missions for 2 years and watch it change their lives for eternity.
I fear we love our nation more than we love the Kingdom of God!
Wow – Carl.
What an amazing statement. Very thought-provoking.
-Andrew
To Nicole: I think that Christians should judge. We should judge behaviors and words and thoughts and deeds; this includes issues! However, we should not judge one another. We do not know what we ourselves truly deserve; let alone what anyone else does. I think that this ‘don’t judge’ notion has brought us to this place.
The Bible says we will judge angels. God told Moses to get Godly men to assist him in judging the affairs and disputes in the community. We have certainly lost that concept and ability in our society. It’s a good thing that we serve a God who is in the resurrection business. This can be restored!
You don’t get to be a ‘wise elder’ by shying away from making good Biblically based decisions. You have to be strong enough to take the heat for them if need be! If you don’t exercise your spiritual senses on this earth you will not be fit to judge, later. Moving in judgment requires the love of Christ so that we can hate the behavior and its results but love the person committing the error. The bible says restore a one in love after he has repented. In other words, you had to first make a judgment and then call them out on it (sometimes that’s in prayer alone between you and God). The point being is a judgment is to be made, take a stand and then move out of the way for the Holy Spirit to work it out. God said he chose Abraham because he would teach his children righteousness and judgment; not that he would worship or pray or any of the things you would guess…it was because of righteousness and judgment.
We can minister to one another with the same Love that Christ has for us. He died for us knowing full well what we would do and what the living and the dead had already done. Had we passed judgment in the past on some of the issues we are facing today , we wouldn’t be where we are today. We would have judged them to be in error and went about correcting our behavior and laws in the name and love of Jesus.
If one is putting one’s country before God and it is devouring our time, and it is a big part of our life, then it is of course an idol. Also, we are not citizens of this world we are sojourners. We are citizens of heaven. This earth is not our home.
The Lord’s commandment is to ‘love Him and our neighbour’, and love those who don’t love us, it isn’t love our country. It is about relationship with people not a country. That is my understanding of the teachings of Christ.
People, people, people. I am saddened by what I see this country coming to. Do you realize that if Christians had stood up for Jesus in the past, this country wouldn’t be in the shape it is in currently? Why do we choose to lay down and let Satan and government stomp on us? Look at what has happened…we are no longer taught from the Bible in school, we can no more have Bible studies on campuses across this country, the liberals are teaching small children how to have safe sex and be open to the idea that they may be homosexual!! This is because we have NOT spoken up for morality and decency and Biblical principles. Patriotic…we need to love this country for what it once was and do what we can to get it back. We should thank God for allowing us to be birthed in a free land and not governed by communists. What will you do when the government takes your Bibles to be thrown in a pile and burned? What will you do when you can’t go freely to the church of your choice? Trust Jesus…YES, but He also tells us that we must be active until He comes. Mt 25:14-30 to be a good and faithful servant, we are to use what He has given us and not dig a hole and bury it. He has given us this great land to take care of and protect. We must do our part before He can do His. We must pray for this land and its leaders then He will heal us. I say be active!! I say be a Godly Patriot!!!
I believe the bigger problem for christians is this. ‘Church’ has become idolatry. ‘Pastors’ are idols to most congregants. Let’s start there. Tear down these idols and perspective and priority will change toward the nation.
Amen Dear Brother, Amen!
We Will Either Trust Man
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5
Or Jesus
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. Jeremiah 17:7
There Are No Fence Sitters
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Matthew 12:30
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Any Readers Who Seek Truth
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3
Believe
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
And Be Blessed Beloved
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18
Love, Joe
Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Being as we should walk as dead men to the flesh, why do we need another king to serve, when we already have one, being the called of Him.
We want to have the best of both worlds, huh?
I also do NOT believe that all of the Tea Parties,and/or rallying up of Conservative Christians is going to now make any difference. I believe that we should accept that God has passed judgement on the USA with the last election.
Just as God hardened Pharoah’s heart, so too has God hardened the heart of our current president. By rallying yourself up now, you would actually be going against what God has ALLOWED to happen, and I just see it now as “kicking against the pricks.”
How do we think that the prophetic timelime of the antichrist, etc. is ever going to happen if everything returned to the way we want it to be? No, it is not OUR WILL that will be done, but God’s.
I say the judgement has already begun, and everyone needs to prepare as best they can, and as the Lord has shown them to do.
Don’t waste your energy fighting what the Lord has allowed to happen…you cannot and will not stop the prophetic timeline of the book of Revelation, no matter how many tea parties, or rallies we attend.
Just my 11 cents worth, lol.
Marty Clayton Banfield
lastdays11@gmail.com
RuthInIndiana and Brian, Amen and Amen. The deep callth the deep.
Of the Ten Commandments, the first four relate to Him. Believers learn that obeying the New Commands given in the New Testament, we will be keeping all His commandments. So, by loving God with all my heart and being, and loving my neighbor as myself, how can patriotism, or any other idol triumph over Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. It doesn’t make sense. Many are called but few are chosen. As for me and mine, I will serve the Lord. I feel no guilt whatsoever for loving my country. God decided where I would be born. He didn’t consult me. Thank you, God, for choosing each brave, exceptional founding father of our nation. There were a few Tares that slipped through, but after all, we’re only sojourners here and You made sure we got off to a good start. Thank you for all those brave missionaries that left the safety of American shores and combed the world to bring the lost to You. And yes, they are still at it every single day! Lolling around and complaining through life has never set anybody free. You will know them by their fruits. We can’t change, solve or wish things to be different; unless we are doers of the Word, each and every day, not in spurts. Through prayer, everything is possible. So buckle up, little ones, you ‘ain’t’ seen nothin’ yet!.
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Apostasy Paves the Way
In 2007 the Roman Catholic Arch Diocese of Los Angeles agreed to pay $630 million in compensation after its Cardinal Mahoney protected pedophile clergy at the expense of the children whose lives these sex criminals destroy. A similar huge settlement was made a week later by the Arch Diocese of San Diego (indeed, very nearly every single Roman Catholic diocese in the USA alone, with their bishops have been similarly found liable in court; a saga repeated globally).
Yet this very week, Pope Benedict XV , who as Cardinal Joseph Radzinger issued the ‘Criminale Solicitacciones’ directive from the Vatican instructing bishops to protect these criminals, made a declaration stating that only Roman Catholicism was valid and other churches were not. Not a word was spoken in reaction by Chuck Colson , James Dobson and other supposedly Evangelical henchmen of ecumenical union with Roman Catholicism and its wide spread sex pervert violation of children and conspiracy to cover it up and protect its pedophile priests and nuns.
Yet, looking to this same pope who received a letter from 38 Moslem leaders, including leaders of the Moslem Brotherhood on public record for supporting terror, and hatred of Jews and Christians, made an advance in a good neighbor letter without retracting any of their previous statements placing religious benedictions on terror, hatred of America, Britain & the West, intolerance of Christians, and murder of Jews. This is the Islamic practice of ‘taq’yya’ , permissible lying in the struggle for Islam, dissimulating misleading information to the infidel in preparation for Jihad.
At the same time President Bush announced his departure from biblical Evangelical Christianity (which he does not appear to have ever embraced in any scriptural sense)
And decreed all faiths have the same god. “I Am The Lord Your God, You Shall Have No Other gods Before Me” is erased from the Bush bible in the name of oil money and political correctness.
The prelude to the Annapolis summit however was indeed to be religious and spiritual. Annihilationist John Stott, Robert Schuller (with the Moslem Grand Mofti of Damascus in his pulpit), Bill Hybels (with a Moslem imam in his), Rick Warren (after paying tribute to terrorist Syria and telling Christians to avoid end times prophecy) , Emergent Church guru Brian Maclaren (who mixes New Age and post modernism with a version of mystical Christendom, and argues for a 5 year moratorium on debating homosexual & lesbian ordination), and Yongee Cho (who combines Oriental shamanism with Christianity in his book ‘The Fourth Dimension’), and a host of other apostate clergy responded to the letter to the pope.
The letter was also signed by a leader representing the National Association of Evangelicals, whose recently resigned head honcho Ted Haggard was caught in a web of lies, deception, and scandal regarding his involvement with homosexual prostitutes and dangerous illegal drugs. As if the pope who instructed the protection of child molesters and denounced the very existence of their churches as invalid represented Christianity, this sad collection theocrats issued a letter of reply to the Moslem letter.
These so called Christian signers were pleased to ignore the pro terrorist history of many of the Moslem signatories and that other of the signatories were Wahabists who impose the sentence of death for becoming a Christian. They apologized to the Moslems for the crusades (a Roman Catholic adventure, not a Protestant one) and for the way in which ‘the war on terror’ has in part been pursued.
This same crowd eager to placate Islam stands prepared to shun Israel and support
Bush and whoever succeeds him on the same course. This is not new. Disclosure of released Nixon tapes in 2006 revealed that Richard Nixon and Billy Graham were both secretly malicious anti Semites and discussed their vehemence against Jews in The White House at some length. In his retirement, Jimmy Carter has become a spokesman for fundamentalist Islamic interests and a virtual defender of anti Israel Islamic terror paid by Moslem oil money donated to his ‘ Peace Center ’. Like Bush and Graham, Carter also proclaimed himself to be a ‘Born Again’ Christian.
It is righteousness that exalts nations . How could treason in the pulpit yield anything but such de facto treason in the corridors of political power?
A day of judgment is indeed coming for corrupt governments and godless nations. A day of judgment is coming on those who curse Israel and betray the persecuted church. A day of judgment is indeed coming on Israel for her rejection of her Messiah and persecution of Jewish believers. A terrible day of judgment is coming with Gog and Magog, Armageddon, and Isaiah 17 on the Arab Moslem world. But judgment begins in the House of God !
Rick Godwin Financial Scandal
Texas newspapers have uncovered an unbelievable maelstrom of financial and ethical impropriety by Texas ‘Kingdom Now’ preacher Rick Godwin. God has had what appear to be dogmatic clones in The UK Assemblies of God such the ‘yellow jacket hype artist’ David Shearman and his brother Andrew Shearman of Nottingham . It was Godwin who authored the promotion of The Toronto deception in the UK Assemblies of God magazine.
The disclosures found incredible and highly manipulative fund raising schemes as Godwin charged all manner of salubrious personal expenditures tallying unbelievable sums of money to his church in San Antonio , Texas .
The articles also reported Godwin’s willingness to avoid moral issues of divorce and homosexuality in the name of being “Real, Raw, and Relevant”.
Godwin, an anti-Israel preacher who proclaims Kingdom Dominion Theology, leads a church that curiously has the same name as Hitler’s Alpine hideout ‘Eagles Nest’ where Hitler and Himmler planned their final solution to the problem of The Jews.
The comment above on why I strongly believe the Christian Church should be preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and promoting biblical christian living and avoid promoting the religious virtues and cause of either side of politics is an extract from the article:
The Wolves In Sheep’s Clothing Kiss The Just plain Wolves
by James Jacob Prasch
THERE IS MUCH MORE TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THAN THIS
To the extent that a Christian is a lover of truth and, at the same time, cannot separate himself from the interests of those around him, it would not be patriotism that motivates him to stand on a particular side in the conflict but as an extension of his faith in Christ.
To the degree to which that is the case, that is the degree to which he shall avoid idolatry and the pseudo-faith of patriotism, and yet still maintain his civic rights and responsibilities.
I recall years ago I heard Lee Greenwood sing “I’m proud to be an American.” It brought tears to my eyes, because I felt blessed to have lived in a country where so much was possible. That song still brings tears, but now they are tears of grief and mourning.
Those who try to defend the USA or want to claim some special mandate from God for the country are utterly deluded. There is a big difference between God blessing a nation because it holds many of His people and that nation being ‘Christian.’ Thomas Jefferson – who cut portions out of the Bible to make his own version – was hardly a Christian, and he was careful to eliminate any strictly ‘Christian’ language or views from the founding statutes.
Mere mention of ‘God’ does not a ‘Christian Nation’ make – as ‘God’ was invoked by most governments to bolster their claims to authority (such as the ‘divine right of Kings doctrine). Nor does a general adherence to Biblical morals make a nation ‘Christian.’ The Constitution may be a document full of wisdom, but it is earthly wisdom.
1 Corinthians 3:18-19
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”;
Ancient Israel was the only country actually instituted by God (and that BTW, does NOT mean that modern Israel is, but that’s a whole other subject). The government of God is a Theocracy and that is the only government that a Christian owes final complete allegiance to. We can pray for the nation we inhabit – even defend it in terms of taking up arms to protect it, if the cause is just – but we CANNOT attach ourselves to ANY earthly kingdom – we are not allowed dual citizenship.
John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”
America is no different than any other ‘kingdom of this world.’ It belongs to the god of this world – satan. Not until the final judgment will the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ. (Revelation 11:15)
America is not ‘Christian’ and never has been. It was a creation of men, not God and as such has always been corrupt. You cannot defend the indefensible.
Truth can be uncomfortable. It can make you angry and defensive when it pokes your idols (including your idols of opinion). Truth can be offensive and sound harsh to the ears (John 6). But truth is truth is truth is truth. Truth does not depend on the speaker or the hearer – it is what it is. Deny it, try to explain it away, delete it or ignore it – it makes no difference – truth will prevail. And, if you do not love the truth, in whatever form it takes, you are in grave danger of being taken in strong delusion.
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. Romans 12:1-3
Great posts above. Want to add this:
The church is a holy nation in its birthright. No matter what country you find yourself in. The church is international and one body without boundaries. That said, we should seek to bless the nation we reside in and seek its peace and well being–the old testament gives us multiple ways God will bless a nation or bring curses to it–we should seek our country to be blessed. The hebrew exiles to Babylon were called to bless the nation they were now being led to. if we live in the USA we are also called to this: Paul calls us to pray for our nation in order that the church might flouresh and the gospel might be preached:
1 tim 2:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
[2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
[3] This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior
[4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Those who believe we should not be concerned about the country we live in are disobedient to this command which Peter also discussed to honor the governor unto the Lord.
also Paul used his roman citizenship quite a number of times. whether he was patriotic or not, we do know however that his roman citizenship provided him benefits which God used to deliver him from some aspects of persecution at various times. I think the idea here shown below is that God wants us live and deal with the land we live in but dont get sucked along with its trajectory or to loose focus on the Kingdom at hand.
[29] I mean, brethren, the appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none,
[30] and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods,
[31] and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form of this world is passing away.
Amen. Seraphah
What do you guys think we’re talking about here?? Do you think that we worship this country??? Is that how you define “patirotism?” We know that this isn’t our final home, we know that we seek another Kingdom, we know that we are just sojourners here. But goodness sakes, whether you think so or not, God did give us this land to take care of, the Vineyard, He blessed those that did a good job and cursed those that didn’t. This is just what I think, I’m not going to say that this is the final truthand if you don’t believe it than youre not a real Christian, like many here have, when you said what you THINK. America is in the real pits, I totally agree, I hate whats going on here, moreso because I was involved in it too, just like most of you. If you read in the Old Testiment, when God was passing judgement NO ONE said, “well okay, God pass judgement on us we want it, our nation is evil, bring in the Antichrist kill us and destroy us.” NO they pleaded for deliverance. Jesus Himself WEEPED over Jerusalem, because they didn’t see their deliverance. So all this make America pay stuff, I personally don’t buy it, you go on and say burn America, I’ll keep pleading for deliverance. And absolutly lets get the Gospel back in the Churches, that will make a world of differance, people just might be saved. Paul said if it were possible we would be acursed from Christ, if Israel would be saved, he loved his people, why do we hate ours. This whole mentality (in my opinion) where we say “bring on the Antichrist, so Jesus will come back” is wrong, in my opinion. How many times have people said to others, “don’t worry Jesus will come before they kill us” then got slaughtered. Thanks for reading.
One more thing, they cried out for deliverance and repentace, to acknowledge their guilt.
That’s all we’re asking for, Ryan.
If all the Christians “cry out for deliverance and repentance” instead of political “bashing”, maybe judgment can be averted.
That is exactly what we need.
-Andrew
Ryan, Jesus wept over Jerusalem, but He also prophesied it’s destruction. I found myself pleading with the Lord to take away the wealth of America as an act of MERCY because the level of wealth and the idolatry of it has become so obscene and a terrible deception leading the people on a glittery glamorous road straight to perdition. The wealthy flaunt their wealth wantonly while the poorer folk look on in envy and sacrifice their lives in the pursuit of it. It is literally sucking the soul out of the people, they are perishing and starving in the midst of plenty but they don’t know it. Just look at Hollywood lately for example..all the rot and demonic oppression that is hiding behind the glitz and wealth is beginning to show through for all the world to see on prime time and in technicolour ( or should I say HD?) – God in His mercy and love is not going to allow this to continue forever.
I had occasion to go to Miami, Florida last year and found the ‘atmosphere’ to be suffocating – such a gaping emptiness and lack of life that grieved me to the core, I’m not talking about air pollution, but spiritual pollution and demonic infestation. Taking the bus down “Millionaire’s Row” beside the beach gave me a further clue – I noticed many of the entrances to the buildings built in the ’60′s were designed to resemble pagan temples.. America has sold her soul, literally, to a false god in the pursuit of what she considers to be life, liberty and happiness, which by the way, is not God’s version of life, liberty and happiness.
No one is calling for the anti-christ, that spirit has been here for a long time already, and it’s because of serving that spirit that the western church has been powerless to stop the proliferation of what is nothing less than in-your-face pagan idolatry. Pleading is for the Lord to not let these idols continue to cruelly and despotically rule over and enslave human beings who God created for His glory, and whom He loves.
Thanks friend Watchful, I hope to that God in His mercy won’t allow this to go much further either. Maybe it’s just me but there seemed to be a sadness when you typed what you saw in Miami. I’m sad too, just looking around at normal folk, like you said trying to be like the “people” they see on tv and in the movies, young girls, and older ones for that matter these days, walking around wearing hardly anything, and if you look in their faces, it’s just a look of total despondancy, all hope is gone out of most peoples eyes, God is a fable to them, if only their eyes could be opened and see the Lord Jesus Christ, instead of the one where you can do anything you want then ask forgiveness and all is well, as Mr. Strom has always said, “we need the Gospel back in God’s Church.” (not a direct quote.)
Ryan, most of the western world has sold themselves to be used like a lifeless object by a satanic system, it destroys their souls, and it also trains people to begin to view other people as intrinsically lifeless worthless objects, as having value only as far as they can successfully pimp themselves. And the church has followed suit, has become exactly like the world, and she is being judged even as we speak – don’t be surprised to hear of another major scandal in the world of televangelism about to hit the news. There was a reason the Lord said to be content with such things as ye have..life does not consist in the abundance of our possessions..each man’s work will be tested and is being tested in this late hour.
A few posts have referenced the story of Joshua and the captain of the Lord’s host in Joshua 5:13-15 as proof that “God does not take sides.” Actually, this incident shows us just the opposite!
Back in Deut. 31:6-8 the promise to Joshua is that God will go with him. Joshua was to be strong and
courageous, confident in the truth that God was going ahead of him. “He will be with you.” “He will not
fail you OR FORSAKE YOU.” It is repeated in Joshua 1: “Just as I have been with Moses, I will be with you, FOR THE LORD YOUR GOD IS WITH YOU WHEREVER YOU GO.”
Turn to Josh 10:14–”The Lord fought FOR Israel…” v.42–”The God of Israel fought FOR Israel.” All this is reminiscent of His promise in Exodus 14:14–”The Lord will fight FOR YOU while you keep silent.”
So Joshua picks up the leadership and does all that he is commanded: On every point Joshua leads the
people in perfect obedience from Joshua 1-5. Now Joshua is facing his first big battle against “the giants” and he sees an armed man. He asks if he is for them or against them.
There are two unspoken assumptions in Joshua’s question: Two armies are involved and they are all
comprised of humans. As God so often does, He answered the deeper questions because then the
surface answer would be clear. “No, rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the Lord.”
The warrior is not human and so he is not the enemy. And there are THREE armies instead of two! God sent a heavenly army to support Joshua as He had promised!” If God be FOR you, who can be against you?”
If there is confusion at this level, nothing else will be sufficiently clear.
Interesting points, a farmer.
As you say, Joshua had led the people and had done all according to what the LORD commanded. The entrance to the promised land, and the conquest of Jericho was God’s will.
Therefore, it would be more accurate to say that Joshua was on the LORD’S side, not the other way around.
Which makes the point “God does not take sides” true. There is only one ‘side’ that is the right ‘side.’ God’s. You can take His side or the other side.
It’s all about God’s point of view, actually. Israel was God’s chosen people inasmuch as God chose Jacob and rejected Esau. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with anything Israel did. On the other hand, whether God was FOR them or AGAINST them had EVERYTHING to do with what Israel did or didn’t do.
God was FOR Joshua because Joshua and Israel were being obedient to Him. Later in their history, God is AGAINST Israel and sets up Babylon to defeat them. At some point in the future, Jesus will defend Jerusalem – and unbelieving Israel – simply because He chooses to and promised that He would. And that will ignite national repentance and revival on a GRAND SCALE!
The USA was not instituted by God and has no such promises from God. And, point of fact, God DOES NOT have a ‘side’ in the political controversy in the USA or, most likely, anywhere else, although I cannot be dogmatic on that point. But NEITHER side is Godly – which again means that God is not going to ‘take sides.’
Seraphah wrote:
“God was FOR Joshua because Joshua and Israel were being obedient to Him.”
Yes, it’s ALL about obedience. Most “christians”, those who call themselves by His Name do not WANT to obey Him FULLY. But yet, they STILL want His blessing.
Can they honestly believe God Is PLEASED with that?
Most offer up to the Lord their half-hearted, incomplete offerings and “think’ that He is pleased with their half-heartedness.
They are in delusion. A dangerous place to be in where their eternal soul is concerned.
The Most High wants ALL of your heart and your life and NOTHING less.
I will absolutely agree that this nation has taken the loyalty factor of patriotism and allowed it to morph into idolatry. It is strictly political and the emotional ties that are involved have no place in the heart of a true believer who will one day worship with the saints of all nations. I am privileged to have been born in this nation and be a citizen where I am free to express my beliefs and proclaim the greatness of God through Jesus Christ in the power of the Spirit. But, the sheer fact is, many of the “Christian” patriots are merely posers. Note, I did not say all and if this offends you, it may be time for a Biblical checkup. How can we be so arrogant to think God’s grace does not cover the whole earth when the Scriptures declare He blesses the just and the unjust. I want to shout….WAKE UP! when I hear it touted (especially from the pulpit) that God blessed America because it was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Uh, excuse me…it was founded on Jewish law…the manner of living pleasing to Yahweh way before America was the twinkle in the founding father’s eyes! So to say that God blessed America is rather presumptuous isn’t it? Look at Japan and China, hardly what anyone would consider to be Christian nations and they were (Japan)/are(China) financially prosperous. So this is an argument that does not fly in light of the fact that other nations are economically viable. It appears that man does not need God to be wealthy, yes? I am suspect of the flag waving crowds hiding out in the stone cold buildings who pose as the true church and yet do not obey the law of God. In other words… having a form of godliness yet denying the power, not possessing the power and that is due to the fact that YHWH does not know them. They have fashioned a god out of their heritage, history, traditions and religion. Revival is the only answer. Come Spirit of the Living Jesus! Come in Your strength and Your Power!
The only nation God is concerned with is the nation of Israel and the people of every tongue and tribe engrafted through the True Vine of Jesus. These will make up the nation of kings and priests to reign forever and ever in His Kingdom. The deception of patriotism is another scheme of the spirit of antichrist!
~ Last month when we were on vacation.
We passed a Baptist Church.
The sign out front advertised…
“A Patriotic Message Every Service”.
I thought how sad that this is what
Church Service Messages have come to for them!
Thanks for letting me stand with you all about this, Andrew.