THE WILDERNESS – How Important?
-Andrew Strom.
The ‘wilderness’ is not a concept that is understood too well in Christendom, despite the fact that it is all the way through the Bible. From the book of Genesis right through Revelation there are clear references to the ‘wilderness’ as being something God often employs in His dealings with men. The pattern is undeniable.
When we look through the Scriptures we see that the wilderness
is often a place of spiritual “crisis” and also preparation. It is the
place God sends us before the “real action” begins – before we
enter into the full purposes of God in our lives. There must be
‘death’ before there can be resurrection. There must be a desert
place before the “promised land”.
The wilderness is a place of trial and testing, of brokenness and
full surrender to God. The props and activities that have kept us
continually striving to “make things happen” are stripped away.
Our self-reliance is shattered and replaced with a total reliance on
God alone. Every “idol” in our lives (often including our own ministry)
is brought under the piercing searchlight of God. Our selfish motives
and ambitions are shown for what they are. This process may take
years. Finally we emerge broken, chastened and purified. The
process has matured and cleansed us in so many ways. We are
now ready for the fulfillment of all that God originally called us to
do. But our heart-motives are vastly different from what they were
before.
We see this pattern all the way through Scripture. Many lessons
can be learned from what we read there. Abraham, Joseph, Joshua,
Moses, David, Elijah, John the Baptist, Paul the apostle – and even
Jesus Himself – all had to go through this “wilderness” experience.
Very often it lasted for years and years. Why then should we be
surprised if it happens to us?
Probably the best-known instance of a ‘wilderness experience’ in
the Old Testament is the story of Moses and the children of Israel.
Moses had been raised and trained all his life in the palaces of
Egypt. But when he came face-to-face with his heritage as an
Israelite, he rose up “in his own strength” and killed an Egyptian
slave-driver. He was then forced to flee into the desert, where he
was to spend 40 YEARS as a simple shepherd in the wilderness.
What an enormous length of time! Imagine if every Christian leader
had to spend that long in the wilderness before God would allow
them to lead His people! It is almost impossible to imagine the
depths of despair and “death” to all his dreams and hopes that
Moses went through during this time. In fact, after 40 years it is
hard to imagine anyone being “deader” to the usual ambitions
and temptations of leadership than Moses would have been. And
what PATIENCE these years of waiting must have produced in him!
We see here the lengths that God will go to in the “preparation”
of a leader “after His own heart.” (-Though 40 years is unusually
long). The isolation, the chafing, the crying out to God for deliverance
- all play their part. Such an experience is almost irreplaceable.
That is why God uses it so often. The hearts of driven men are so
similar in so many ways, that God’s “cure” becomes similar also!
He will even shut us up in a kind-of ‘prison’ for a time so we cannot
escape the process. It is that important. He does not want ‘self’-
oriented leaders shepherding his precious sheep.
After his 40 years of preparation, Moses returned to Egypt at God’s
command to lead His people out of bondage. This was the beginning
of the entire nation of Israels’ wilderness experience. For when they
left Egypt the only way to their “Promised Land” was through the
desert. Some commentators say that in a straight line, their journey
could have taken just a few weeks or less. But because of their
disobedience and fear, the vast majority of those who left Egypt
were destined to die in the desert, never reaching the Promised
Land. In fact, their wilderness journey ended up taking 40 years!
Now we need to take special note of this fact:- Not everyone who
entered the wilderness survived it. In fact, multitudes perished there.
The wilderness tried them and found them wanting. They went to
the place of testing and failed the test. This is a pretty crucial fact
to realize in our day also. Just because we are “called out” and
enter a wilderness time, does not mean that we will embrace the
dealings of God and respond appropriately. It is entirely possible
to lose everything out there. These people lost out completely.
Only their children came through to inherit the promises of God.
How clearly we see this pattern over and over again – in both the
Old Testament and the New:- That many whom God wants to one
day use are sent into a place of aloneness and brokenness before
being brought into their true destiny. We have not even mentioned
heroes of God such as Noah, Jacob, Job and others who all had
similar experiences. Part of this process lies in the “waiting” that
takes place. Also, the fact that all the supporting ‘props’ are taken
away. The “waiting” alone can be torture.
The wilderness also deals with any fear of man or ‘systemized’
way of looking at things. God often uses it to bring a whole fresh
perspective, which is very important for leaders who are going to
be representing a “new” approach or facing opposition because of
the confrontational words that they are bringing. The lonely desert
years give them backbone to stand up to the crowd or the powers-
that-be, and declare God’s truth without compromise. They now
truly fear God rather than man. And they think differently from
others. The wilderness is vital for anyone who is wanting to bring
fresh manna to God’s people.
Are you someone who has been going through such a “desert”
experience, my friend? Be encouraged! Look up, for your deliverance
draws nigh. God only ever sends His children through such
experiences when there is a great purpose to it. Don’t give up. Don’t
be cast down. On the other side lies a ‘land of promise’ if only you
can hang on to Jesus. Be active, be praying, be prepared. Don’t
become “passive” and let the desert swallow you whole. Use this
time to draw closer and closer to Jesus. Dig down and plant your
feet firmly on the Rock. Humble yourself before the Lord and He
will lift you up in due time – if only you can cling to Him.
-Please comment on this article below-
Thank. you. This is this summer for me.
~ Mark
great word.
Good article,thanks.
The wilderness is not a nice place,without the refreshing of His presence the bravest saint can become a casuality.
Years ago in the ME we came upon a checkpoint which forbade further progress unless you had a plentiful supply of water.
Folk in a dry place need the help of others lest the enemy makes them an unnecessary victim.We need to be alert to help.
Truly wonderful word Andrew. Thank you!!
Very good point about the desert being able to swallow you whole if you aren’t clinging to Jesus. My wilderness is 11 years and counting. The last few months I’ve tried to ‘go to sleep’ and ignore things, be inactive, and just sit down and play in the dirt til Jesus comes because I’m tired and sad. But this has only served to make me more tired and more sad, and very parched. “She who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives” is what comes to mind. Thank you for this timely word to warn, but also to encourage and show that this pain has a great purpose.
Andrew
I couldn’t agree more.
Thanks
Great homework! Thanks for another AUTHENTIC word to this generation.
Best,
Steve
23 years ago I finished a BA and an MA in biblical and theolgical studies. I then fasted and prayed for several days at the end of which God spoke to my spirit and said to “wait”. For how long I replied…and He said”wait”. For what am I waiting I said… and He said “wait”. There have been many “small” areas of ministry that God has allowed me to engage in over the years (I have not been sitting idly by). But I have never met anyone else who has had to endure this waiting process as I have. It has (is) been lonely and often times confusing but I have experienced a maturation that has centered around John 17:3 and really “knowing” God. With a great deal of spiritual warfare now taking place I am sensing that perhaps my time of graduation is nearing. Needless to say, your article is most encouraging. One of these days I would really enjoy meeting you brother.
Jay
Andrew this is one of the best you have penned. May I add that the purpose of God in the time hidden away is for the stripping of our self lives or a burning of His Consuming Fire within (40 years is a time of waiting, preparation toward a completion) until we actually become the image of the Consuming Fire Himself. When all is consumed the fire continues to burn as in the time Moses was “turned aside” on his desert journey and led to the burning bush, which burned but was never consumed for it was the holy habitation of God in the wilderness. Note that Moses had been in God’s will while leading the children through the time hidden away, yet God beckoned him from that path “turned aside” of obedience to a whole new experience and place in Him. Moses, though walking in God’s will, was obedient and turned aside to a new thing God was about to show him. Moses knew God’s voice. Attention to God and total obedience is the key to our inner change, even when we are on the right path in a seeming no man’s land. There is no life except for the wilderness experience. Submitting our will to His completely, then the fire does its work and the Potter has His way. For His true sheep KNOW His voice and follow after Him wherever He leads. The maturing of the saints is the pressed for mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. To be transformed into His glorious image as perfected (matured) kings and priests unto God. Vessels of honor. Let us not come up short but make our calling and election sure (secure). Only the overcomers will receive the fullness of life of the Tree of Life (the image of Christ Jesus) as God spoke to the seven candlesticks (churches) in Revelations. He especially exhorts the church at Ephesus to return to its FIRST LOVE lest He come quickly and remove their candlestick. Obedience to our first love is key. God loves us and knows we falter, so He urges us to press on (with Him) deeper and deeper into the wilderness until such time of the completion of His work in us, which is the image of His glory that our joy may be full in the Paradise of God or as some call it the Promised Land (that place within our spirit of maturity in God). Ours is a spiritual journey from death (the Cross) unto life (the Resurrection life) in His wonderful kingdom within us. May we all have ears to hear and now eyes to see what He is saying and the abundant life He has prepared for those who love Him. Job did.
Bless you Andrew and all who support this wonderful Spirit-led ministry!
Praise God!
That’s the very Word of God I need now. I mean right now! I knew all of this; but sometimes I could get so discouraged.
In fact yesterday I was so grieved in my soul that I felt so rubbish and almost “cursed”. I know Jesus wants to live in me while I’m dying for Him, but I thought I’m not qualified, that I sinned too much to be forgiven, even though I preached repentance and believe in the redemptive and forgiving power of the blood of the Lamb (can you believe it?). And to worsen it all, I have some serious financial difficulties, plus a hard relationship with Christians around me, even with my family. Not that there is specific problem, but just that I’m not understood, I’m like weird to them, most of time isolated or criticized.
In the beginning of the test, you encourage yourself, but then, when facing all these oppositions and rejections and misunderstandings and crisis and problems, you begin to ask yourself if you’re not the source of your “desert”. You check it well and you find that you’re not. You ensure yourself that you don’t have a “paranoiac” state of mind where you feel hated by everybody. Where you have misbehaved, you repented and did all you could do to repair when possible. But yet, you’re still suffering…
Then, probably by the stirring up of the Spirit, I rose up and sang some worship songs and prayed and confided in the Lord. And He gave me not only His Word (Ephesians 6.16), but a peaceful heart both yesterday night and throughout this day. The Lord asked me also to read Philippians 4 and 1 Peter which I did and found such comfort. I also read an article of Jim Gerrish (Must The Righteous Suffer?) which helped me a lot.
Finally, when opening my mailbox, I saw your mail and discovered this marked message which I believed is just the continuation of God’s Word for my life…
All this encouraged me; moreover, it strengthens my faith:
God is leading me somewhere…And without faith, it’s impossible to please Him!!!
Wilderness experience, here I am, holding the hand of the Master! (Ps 23)
Yeshoua be praised forever !
NOTE:
Yes, I am NOT qualified to be used by God!
Amen
I have been in extreme darkness and earthly loneliness for 19yrs now. I don`t hope to come out some famous kind of person, but my hope is that the world around me will know and see Christ in me.
My face is set hard towards Him, because He is my only Hope. He has been everything to me over these years. My mother, father, sister,brother, uncle, aunt, grandma, cousin, best friend…..He has been the anchor of my soul and my Rock who causes me to be steadfast. I encourage every child of His to begin every day as if looking from the grave, then we can come to some kind of true eternal perspective.
It`s because of Him that I am able to be more than a conqueror in this world. Even in this `desert“ His yoke is easy and His burden is light. It`s the glory and the agony. Amen!
Sarah
Strangely though, Moses spent all that time of preparation in that wilderness before going to Egypt. But what I find interesting, is the fact that he spent all that time in the wilderness, only to lead others into the wilderness as well. But did so, in order for the children to ultimately take the land when the time came for them to go finally.
One thing is for sure. Moses definitely knew what to do while in that wilderness, that is for sure. :-)
Very tempted in these days in this, to “become “passive” and let the desert swallow you whole”…to just lay down & die here in a bad way instead of learning to submit to being continually crucified with Christ. Bless God for this timely word through you, dear brother!
Edifying text. I was especially encouraged by some of the last words,
“hang on to Jesus. Be active, be praying, be prepared. Don’t
become “passive” and let the desert swallow you whole. (…) Dig down and plant your feet firmly on the Rock. Humble yourself before the Lord (…) cling to Him.”
What I felt this winter (just before leaving “the prophetic movement” here in Norway) was that a lot of stuff/material under my feet vanished, and so my feet came to touch the solid ground, the Rock, Jesus Christ, and I got to experience God’s grace. So that’s something I can relate to. “Cling to Him” has been some of the most important Bible words for me even though I can’t seem to fix it. But it’s true what you just wrote, that our self-reliance becomes shattered and is to be replaced by a total reliance in God …
May you all stay strong in the Lord, until the End
from a brother in Norway
A true and relevant message. Many of God’s people are experiencing the wilderness, some much longer than others, but yes, for sure God has a mighty purpose with that. We must just hang in there, trusting Him to do a complete work in us. It is all about submitting, allowing the Lord to mold us and get us ready for the ministry He has called us into for this very last hour prior to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you very much for this word. My daughter and I entered the wilderness a few years ago and then my husband joined me there and now we and our two daughters walk in it together (miserably at most times – shattered and hanging on by threads). Now we have in the past few days been overwhelmed by many Truths from His glorious Word and the word that you have shared has just iced the cake and put perspective on the whole picture. Where financial death has struck us and the tempter has come in and tempted us using scripture (via the prosperity message which my Spirit reacts to violently) to give that which is owing to the bank and to the family who at this stage with the love of God clothe and feed us, many are saying “just tithe and you’ll get out of this situation” etc etc etc…After being reminded of the wilderness and all that happens in it and that we are in fact just there for the moment, I can now see that just drawing even closer to the Lord and His Word and allowing Him to change me in this time – however painful the process, that we will eventually (on His time), exit the wilderness and enter the Promised Land.
Thank you for sharing this word as it felt as if the Lord spoke directly to us through it tonight.
God Bless you
From South Africa to you
Awesome! Thankyou for these wonderful testimonies.
-Andrew
Hi Andrew what a blessed post, i pray that God would use u powerful as u are obedient to his word. The wilderness is vey important and i am very encouraged thanks a milllion. Jesus also said that he did not promise anyone a rosegarden in this gospel.
God bless u man.
From Brenda
Very timely and appropriate word!
Yes, tis true, when God gives a vision, He will take a saint through the three stages of it: birth, death and supernatural fulfillment.
Abram, Joseph, Moses, even the apostles had to go through the stages.
To me, the problem seems to be the waiting, not knowing when.
Abram did not know he had to wait 25 years for the son of promise – Isaac; Joseph did not know he would go into a pit, prison, before his dreams realized, let alone see his father again after 22 years in Egypt. Even the apostles did not know if Jesus would resurrect, even though He told them that He would. They could not see the Messiah dying. Most of the O.T. prophets portrayed the Messiah in his glory. They could not see the church. She was hidden.
I guess faith is the key. “Without faith, it is impossible to please him; ..” (Hebrews 11:6)
Even the apostle Paul was in the desert/wilderness of Arabia for 3 years, God straightening out his theology. “…but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.” (Galatians 1:17)
Christ was tested in the wilderness. All the while we are waiting for God, Satan will try to get us to fulfill the vision with human effort. Prime example: Hagar, the Egyptian maid bore Ishmael.
But the wilderness is a lonely place. I can attest.
Lucille
Dear Bro. Andrew,
That was a great message about the “WILDERNESS.” It seems that all true Christians are headed for the wilderness, in some way or another.
Last Sunday I preached a message, entitled: “THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS.” Many of the thoughts that you expressed in your message were the same as what I preached last Sunday. It’s amazing how that God speaks the same thing to His servants. God bless you.
Sincerely,
Bro. Arthur Reece
GOSPEL OF CHRIST MINISTRY
P.O. Box 388
Marietta, Georgia 30061
art.gospel@comcast.net
Such a wonderful hitting-the-mark encouragement for the saints, thank you Andrew. It’s very strengthening to know this is the “normal” experience for any believer wanting to move on from maturity to holiness, God is not picking on any of us – in fact the highway of holiness is found in the wilderness. In answer to the question, how important is the wilderness, I would say there is no way around it, some kind of wilderness is really the cross whereby we are conformed increasingly into the image of our Saviour as we bear His reproach.
My wilderness began about 23 years ago and seems at different seasons it has had layer upon layer added to it, wish I could say I have suffered nobly, but no, I have just suffered as messily as suffering always is. Lately I’ve been getting somewhat resigned and it’s worrying me a little whether this is a normal phase or if I’m getting passive as you mentioned in the article, or maybe just older! For sure I’m more at rest in the Lord than I’ve ever been, trusting in His sovereignty, but I’ve experienced the death of my dreams and visions and am having to encourage myself that the Lord will resurrect what is of Him. How I pray for all the precious believers here, that the Lord will uphold, encourage and strengthen and be near to all who are suffering according to His perfect will…may the Lord bless you all!
I forgot to put my name as “watchful” in my post above – my real name is:
Therese :)
Over 20 years and counting, living in rural Australia, hanging on to a prophetic word given over my area all that time ago, confirmed at the strangest times and most unusual ways….realizing what was going on but hating the spiritual warfare involved, spiritually tired, alone sometimes to the point of wondering what it was all for, giving up so many times but ….didn’t because I KNOW HE CAN DO ALL HE HAS PROMISED, answers to prayer for others, not for my own.
Reading above posts, this time period seems a common thread with others out there, BUT we have hung on. PRAISE GOD and we shall all keep going until we are purified, broken, forgiven and moulded to where HE wants us. Some of us may feel alone but we are together in this … Andrew your word is timely and confirmed.
Praise God Andrew, wonderful teaching and exhortation on the wilderness experience. The flesh must be crucified and sanctified so that Christ may be manifested in this mortal body.
Also a great word from Cal, that is the meat of Christ, very edifying to my soul, thank you!
Andrew shared:
The wilderness is a place of trial and testing, of brokenness and
full surrender to God. The props and activities that have kept us
continually striving to “make things happen” are stripped away.
Our self-reliance is shattered and replaced with a total reliance on
God alone. Every “idol” in our lives (often including our own ministry)
is brought under the piercing searchlight of God. Our selfish motives
and ambitions are shown for what they are. This process may take
years. Finally we emerge broken, chastened and purified.
———————————————————————————-
Ah, what a powerful Word; so piercing, so true.
Thank you Andrew for listening so clearly to the Holy Spirit and then sharing in such an encouraging way!
I believe with all my heart that this was given to you, and I know that many souls will be deeply touched. I certainly was (am)!
Blessings to you and your house!
Mario
In this American culture of youth, the maturation process and the years required for the growth of wisdom is often disparaged. People do not want to wait, and they fear old age. But God used Moses when he was 80 to lead a congregation of over 3 million; God used Caleb at 80 to conquer the Promised Land. Others were mightily used of God in older ages, so we can see that waiting in the wilderness brings increase in many areas, including patience, wisdom, longsuffering, endurance, and humility. Now that I’m 70, having spent years in the desert, literally taking care of cows and sheep, God is allowing me to travel and minister in foreign lands, in ways I’d often dreamed about, but was not free to follow. He knows our days, He is our strength, and the time in the wilderness is important for our eventual testimony. Thanks, Andrew, for the words of encouragement.
Excellent word, Andrew. It resonates with me as I, too, find myself in this desert place, although God has spread a table before me here, and I am not without.
It is no secret that God is breaking the strength of His people (Daniel 12), so that our strength be only His, even as He desires to be our only treasure.
Amen.
Very true, Andrew. Glad you decided to pursue this subject. I think it is good for all of us to see that we are not alone out here.
While reading this message and the comments that followed and adding what I have seen in my own life and others as well, I could not help but contrast the process you outlined with the present day ‘prophetic movement.’
While 40 years may be on the long end of the wilderness time scale, it is certain that it is longer than 6 months.
It seems so many ‘preachers’ (Todd Bentley comes to mind) were barely ‘saved’ before they exploded on the scene with their ‘anointing.’ And when these ‘preachers’ get caught in sin, six months to a year and you can recover from anything from adultery to homosexuality and be back leading the flock. Is it any wonder that they are leading people into deception??
How many cults were started by people who suddenly went from saved to prophet in six months or less??
And hundreds, maybe even thousands of people follow them, because they are not rooted and grounded in the WORD.
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.
The wilderness also deals with any fear of man or ‘systemized’
way of looking at things. God often uses it to bring a whole fresh
perspective, which is very important for leaders who are going to
be representing a “new” approach or facing opposition because of
the confrontational words that they are bringing. The lonely desert
years give them backbone to stand up to the crowd or the powers-
that-be, and declare God’s truth without compromise. They now
truly fear God rather than man. And they think differently from
others. The wilderness is vital for anyone who is wanting to bring
fresh manna to God’s people.
—
Amen. God is raising up new leaders who serve the Lord Jesus Christ and not men and mammon. Oh may they be gentle, christ-like and full of love.
One thing that is often overlooked, is that being in the wilderness (desert, dry place) doesn’t just mean to be “put on hold or standby” for a while.
It is rather a time when a person feels low because the desert is not a pleasant place to be. Being thrown into the dry land, a believer often finds himself bombarded with thoughts of self-doubt and perhaps even doubts about God’s love.
The wilderness, in contrast to a believer’s wrong expectations of what he considers God’s blessings, might even be perceived as punishment, often seemingly undeserved. He has tried and prayed so very hard and the seeming reward is a life in the desert. In his state of discouragement he becomes also extremely vulnerable of being pursued and attacked by the devil.
This is the reason why Andrew’s exhortation is so very important.
Just like Jesus, when He was tested by the devil while in the desert for 40 days, so also a believer today must be well grounded in God’s Word as a weapon to fight against the devil’s attacks. As the Bible tells us, His Word is sharper than a double-edged sword.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Wilderness??? – I actually thought it was “hell” and the dessert was more like church life.
thank-you for your encouragement Andrew
Thank you, Andrew. It’s all about surrendering and becoming totally dependent on God. Six years ago, my wife and I had co-pastored a church and it went totally wrong. We were falsely accused of all kinds of mischief, largely by someone who apparently wanted to control the church. The problem was, people believed the lies and we were told to leave.
It was an experience that emphasized that no human capability could save the situation. I knew the church belongs to the Lord, the sheep are his and our responsibility was merely to obey God and commend the church into His hands. We didn’t want to be the cause of a church split, so we left. Some people, who didn’t buy the ‘coup’, left too. At that point, I didn’t want to be a pastor anymore, but God clearly told us to start a new church. Not long after that the old church fell apart. This whole experience was a true wilderness experience to me. I had to sacrifice MY vision, MY reputation, but it made me more aware that the church belongs to God and MY interests aren’t of any importance. And, I found, as long as one values reputation, one will compromise.
One of the blessings of this is that I can relax. I don’t have to control everything, I don’t have to solve the problems, my responsibility is to take everything in prayer before God’s face and follow His instructions. That’s my responsibilty, the CHURCH is His!
One thing I learned from Moses, that he didn’t spend much time arguing with the Israelites. Instead, he spent his time speaking to the Lord about all the issues he encountered. Then he would give the people God’s reply. If they wouldn’t listen, God would act. In fact, Moses didn’t have to worry, because he just followed the Lord’s directions.
I have a question (which comes later).
I too feel very much as if I am in the wilderness, and have been for 4 years. I feel as if I am “getting nowhere” although I know that during this time I have learnt more than perhaps I ever learnt during the previous 31 years of my Christian life. I constantly feel as if I am trapped in a cage. When I looked out in our garden in the spring and saw that a previously healthy shrub had been almost killed by ivy climbing up it, I felt as if God was telling me that this place where I live was, like the ivy climbing up the plant, strangling me. I dread the winter (I am in England) when I feel even more trapped. I have prayed and searched a lot.
But although I have learnt such a lot and in this respect HAVE moved forward, in other ways I feel I am going nowhere and that I SHOULD be going somewhere and that the reason for this is not that God wishes me to go through a wilderness for a time but simply because I am missing something God is saying to me, or perhaps I do hear what He says but am just not certain that it is Him speaking and therefore dare not act on it.
So my question is this: How do I (or anyone else in this position) know for certain that this is a “wilderness time”, and therefore that I need to be patient and continue to wait, as opposed to the possibility that I am simply missing something that God is saying to me and that that in fact is the reason that nothing seems to move?
I think that it might be possible for many of us to convince ourselves that God is putting us through a “wilderness time” , and for some great purpose, when in fact we are simply not hearing what God has to say to us.
I would be interested on others’ thoughts on this.
yes, yes, yes…this is my wanting of the only answer to His call on my life. Yet, honestly, I have professed that if i knew the exact plans for my future, I am sure i would run as fast and far away as i could. His love is being perfected in me, all the while, I tend to run away.
I too, have heard His voice telling me to wait, or not yet, be still. These are hard answers to hear and I know that i know that i know…How His word(bible or direct voice from Him) are the Truth and my truths are based on fear of man. So, in conclusion, I thank Yahweh for this wilderness, because He has ordained it and will bring me through, however that looks. Shalom to all of you chosen ones, His remnant, all you children of the Most High.
The question may be:Is this,what could be described as a wilderness experience truly from God?If it is, then there must be an end to it and a purpose for it.
There is also the possibility of a build up of frustration,because of an overload of false expectations.People can be lonely,unable to share and the result can be akin to depression.If you like spiritual depression.
“the anointing oil breaks the yolk”
People need help in this area.Blessings
WHAT IS THE OIL?
1“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6“At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ 7“Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ 9“‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10“But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11“Later the others also came. ‘Sir! Sir!’ they said. ‘Open the door for us!’ 12“But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I don’t know you.’ 13“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. [Matthew 25 1-13].
I thought and prayed about this for a long time, it’s obvious that the virgins are Christians who are waiting for the time when Jesus comes back in All His Glory for his Bride and defeats satan and death. So the virgins needed to have the light, as it says in John chapter one, no one loves the light but God’s people. Anyway, the ones who await Him are up all night in this dark world and the lamps go out [oh another meditation on that aspect…]. The Wise virgins have extra oil and are able to stay lit for as long as it takes, so the oil is staying power to keep their light going, Light here being the ability to trust and wait. But what is the oil?
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. [Romans 8:10]
So if everything that happens is for our ultimate good, then no matter what trial we go through, it will be ok, we can rejoice in all our trials. The problem is we never EVER believe that it will be ok, so instead of rejoicing, we sob and moan and cry until the problem is over. So, God keeps taking us ‘round the same Mulberry bush over and over until we learn to just trust in Him.
Make no mistake the times just before Jesus returns will be awful— no; awe-full.
It will be hard to be able to keep God’s light going in our hearts, while we wait for Jesus’ return.
Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. [Daniel 12:12]
That’s a long time to hold up our hope in Christ, especially while the world falls apart and we are being persecuted. Oh you don’t think we’ll be persecuted? Well Jesus says this….
“Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,a’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. [Matthew 24:4—9]
And this is very important Jesus said more:
10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. [Matthew 24:10-13]
And Please note this will be a horrible time to be alive in:
19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. [Mark 13:19]
And just so we remember we are weak and cannot deal with all of this ourselves St. Paul says this to show where His strengths lay.
” a messenger of Satan to torment me to keep me from exalting myself! Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.
And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. [2 Corinthians 12:7-9]
And while we are on the subject of the power of Christ:
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”[Luke 21:36]
And as bad as it will be remember:
… nothing is impossible with God.” [Luke 1:37]
The Word says there will be huge upheavals in the earth, lawlessness, wars and revolutions, fearful events, great signs from heaven, famine, pestilence, betrayal, being hated, great distress. In the midst of this how will we be able to hold it together, what oil will be in our lamps?
I mention this because the Word also says:
“If you have raced with men on foot and they have worn you out, how can you compete with horses? If you stumble in safe country, how will you manage in the thickets by the Jordan? [Jeremiah 12:5]
I know some of us are struggling now, we are defeated and miserable, and it hasn’t even gotten bad yet, so how will we be able to keep our little light shining when roving gangs of rioters are killing people in their own homes? And how about when there is no electricity, and no grocery stores? How about having to be nomadic just to stay alive?
So what is that oil? Well, it’s allowing God to do His purifying work in us*, to teach us that no matter how bad it gets He will bring us through. It’s staying power in the midst of terrific adversity No matter what the privation, and the Word mentions many will be imprisoned: we can wait on the Lord for salvation. OR we can say like the three did under Nebachadnezzer, “If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. 18But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” [Daniel 3:17].
And we most certainly want to be wholly His because for the rest of the world it will be:
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years. [Malachi 3:2]
O Lord I praise your name for I have learned that My comfort in my suffering is this: Your promise preserves my life. I know you will deliver me from all my afflictions and your law is my delight. I have become worthless slag and you are refining me in your crucible so that my oil is clear and clean and has the ability to stay firm until you return. I thank you for this saving process in my life and I praise you for being my loving God, In Jesus’ name, Amen
*2 Cor 6:4-10; Isa 48:10;
Breathtaking truth brother Andrew. Open this subject up and write a book about it. Maranatha
This is very true words. In the wilderness He exposes the hidden in us and deal with issues we dould sometimes not even thought of while in a comfort zone. Thank You Jesus for the wilderness experience. Borther Andrew, only a man who went through such a wilderness experience can write this article. The wilderness is not initially pleasant, but once you realise what is happening there, you become extremely glad for,
Lizzie, the answer to your question might be another question: If you were to try and leave your wilderness, would you be disobeying God? He has led you so far, you have heard His voice in the past, and have learned the fear of the Lord, and now He is not leading you to do anything but wait, and wait, and wait some more. As time goes on, the bridges in our lives that form an exit route out of the wilderness will be burned away or dismantled, and it would be difficult to leave the wilderness under our own power – only the Lord will be able to bring us out. The wilderness gets into our blood, it becomes a part of us and we become a part of it – we carry in our mortal bodies the death of the Lord Jesus. It is is not comfortable, but eventually there is a learning to be content, and in the meantime we are enjoying the fellowship of His sufferings. I know exactly what you mean by those winters and feeling imprisoned – in free industrialized nations God has other ways of imprisoning His people without bars, and it’s in living with uncertainty that we learn to trust and lean on the only thing that truly is certain – He Himself. And I’m saying these things to encourage myself also! May He bless and strengthen you sister… :)
Could the last voice that God will choose to use to speak to the nation and the whole earth be someone in Andrew Strom’s group? Will God actually give a voice to one…or two from this ever gathering of some of the true prophets of God? If so, I will assume that they are in the midst of the desert now and about to walk into the picture. Someone will step out of the desert and into the conscious minds of the earth just before the moments run out? With that prayer of boldness in your heart and the Word of God on your lips. I mean, I see this happening as clearly as I see this day.
Someone is ready to step out on the faith God has given them with all humility and all power that resides in the Name which is above every Name, Jesus Christ, and get everyones attn. ? Are you in this little room?
I find it interesting that Andrew Strom makes a point of saying the Kundalili spirit has had its strength for 16-17 years now. That would be around 1994, which is when Leonard Ravenhill and a few others fell asleep. I’m just saying…
Some of you, stop idolizing the messenger and look to the message giver!
What is the purpose of this wilderness that we’re all having the privilege of enduring?
Deut.8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep His commandments, or no. 3 And He humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that He might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
And notice how verse 5 reads also:
5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.
When we come to our loving Father in Heaven He promises to discipline us although this isn’t a Promise we usually want to ‘claim’ for ourselves.[grin] We have the sure Promise that, IF INDEED we are His sons, then the spanking spoon will surely follow:
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
One problem in the chastening process is that it is so very often (SIGH) automatically assumed to be the result of (gasp) sin. In a way, Job’s friends are still very much with us today. So, when our Father lovingly begins the wilderness process with one of His little ones, many others will begin to judge and mock them. That can be a painful part of the wilderness. The logic is as follows: “If you’re right with God then all will be paradise 24/7, if you’ve sinned then bad things will happen to you.” But anyone who comes to God will pass through trials and into wilderness time(s) before emerging into the victory of the Promised land.
Another problem with the wilderness is it takes time and most of us don’t wanna wait. In this age of instant gratification we want the Promised land right now, ouch ouch.
The thing is though, of all the nine fruit of the Spirit of Truth, OBEDIENCE is not among them. Remember Deuteronomy 8. He’s looking for Obedience. The greater the suffering, the greater the revelation. Because He loves us, He will only test us AND bless us according to what we can handle. The deeper the depth of our Obedience to Him the more mightily He can use us later on for His glory. Since Obedience isn’t a gift or a fruit of the Spirit, how do we obtain it?
Hebrews 5:8 Though He were a Son, yet LEARNED He Obedience by the things which He SUFFERED; 9 And being MADE PERFECT, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that Obey Him.
IF the sinless Son of God had to ‘LEARN’ Obedience, then so do we. If He Learned Obedience through SUFFERING, then so will we, if we continue to endure His chastening in faith, believing we too, will come forth as gold.
And finally, let us not forget this wonderful verse in Deut. 8:
16 Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that He might humble thee, and that He might prove thee, TO DO THEE GOOD AT THY LATTER END.
God bless you precious brothers and sisters,
Renee
Deuteronomy 8:16
Amen Reborn, when we are considered as sinners to the church or as ‘losers’ to the world, we are bearing His reproach.
May I also add this scripture:
1Cr 11:32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
Better to endure our light and momentary afflictions now than later..
If your baptism is mixed with faith, it profited you unto life eternal. Not the faith of the world nor as the world speaks for out of the mouth comes that which is in the heart(thought from your spirit)none can take them out of Christ Yeshua’s hand and the father who is greater than all none can take them out of his hand.
Thank you, Watchful, for your reply to my question. I shall go away and think on this whole subject some more.
Thank you Andrew and Cal……..Very confirming, uplifting, and encouraging.
When true followers of God are surrounded by prosperity followers and followers of “I have nothing to overcome, it’s all been done at the cross”; it is difficult to stay the course. When I hear of others “out there” being led by God and purified and tried by fire in the same way as I ……it STRENGTHENS MY PERSEVERENCE, MY PURSUIT OF GOD.
Cal…..Knowing the true teaching about the wilderness we are taken to by God, helps us to welcome and EMBRACE the trials, adversity, and afflictions as Job, Paul, Stephen, and John did. Thank you for making that point with Job.
While it is very true that Christ went through a wilderness experience it was in fulfillment of prophecy that it happened. Christ The True Vine is also Christ the True Israel “This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called My Son.” Old Covenant Israel was but a type a shadow of the reality that is Christ.
True Paul went through what we could call some wilderness training yet it was also Paul who taught us “The Victory we’ve already obtained IN Christ,” that we have already been blessed with all spiritual blessing in heavenly places IN Christ. That we are now seated with Father God in heavenly place IN the Son, that IN Christ we have been removed out of satan’s domain and transfered into the Kingdom of the Son of His love which would indicate to me at least; that Christ is the Promised Land we as believers have been called to; therefore we need to ask why then do I (me included) seem to be dwelling in some wilderness far short of what God has accomplished for me IN Christ? Perhaps because I have not fully renewed my mind to ALL that has already been accomplished for me. That instead of learning daily to be strong in the grace that is ours IN Christ Jesus I still try to live this life in my own strength and ability???
Even Jesus Christ had His ‘wilderness’ period – and I am not talking about the 40 days of temptation. I am referring to the time between Luke 2 and Luke 3. From His twelfth year until about 30, Jesus simply lived His life. In that time he saw his siblings born and Joseph must have died, leaving Jesus, as the eldest son, to take over the place as head of the family. He had to deal with his mothers and siblings grief, take care of the family business and make enough money to support them. This pattern seems to hold true all through Scripture, the only exceptions being the disciples, who had the benefit of walking with Jesus incarnate.And even then, the one that lived longest – John – had a ‘wilderness’ on Patmos, during which he received Revelation.
Wait on the Lord;
Be of good courage,
And He shall strengthen your heart;
Wait, I say, on the Lord!(Psalm 27:14)
Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him;
Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way,
Because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass.
Cease from anger, and forsake wrath;
Do not fret—it only causes harm.
For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth.(Psalm 37:7-9)
My soul, wait silently for God alone,
For my expectation is from Him.
He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be moved.
In God is my salvation and my glory;
The rock of my strength,
And my refuge, is in God.(Psalm 62:5-7)
I beg to differ with the words “type and shadow”.
These words have been theologically slaughtered over the last hundred years.
The Hebrew and Greek words are “the representation; an ensample; a pattern”
These are clearly more than a type or shadow…..One does not look to a shadow or a type to understand a spiritual reality. One looks at a physical observable pattern. Jesus is physical; the law is physical; the tabernacle is physical; the wilderness is physical; the temple and Jerusalem are physical.
The Old Testament saints; the tabernacle; the temple; the Law; the wilderness were all PHYSICAL PATTERNS USED BY GOD TO EXPLAIN THE SPIRITUAL REALITIES THEN AND NOW AND SOON TO COME HEREAFTER.
God did not “DO AWAY WITH THE THINGS OF OLD AND REPLACE THEM”.
He has progressively revealed and fulfilled all that He created. He is in the business of redemption and restoration, NOT REPLACING WHAT HE CALLED GOOD.
Gal 2:16 Here the Apostle is maintaining that submission to circumcision entails the obligation to do the whole “Law.” Circumcision belongs to the ceremonial part of the “Law,” but, while the Mosaic Law is actually divisible into the ceremonial and the moral, no such distinction is made or even assumed in Scripture. <<<<>>>>
The following phrases specify “laws” of various kinds;
(a) “the law of Christ,” Gal 6:2, i.e., either given by Him (as in the Sermon on the Mount and in Jhn 13:14, 15; 15:4), or the “law” or principle by which Christ Himself lived (Mat 20:28; Jhn 13:1); these are not actual alternatives, for the “law” imposed by Christ was always that by which He Himself lived in the “days of His flesh.” He confirmed the “Law” as being of Divine authority (cp. Mat 5:18); yet He presented a higher standard of life than perfunctory obedience to the current legal rendering of the “Law,” a standard which, without annulling the “Law,” He embodied in His own character and life (see, e.g., Mat 5:21-48; this breach with legalism is especially seen in regard to the ritual or ceremonial part of the “Law” in its wide scope);HE SHOWED HIMSELF SUPERIOR TO ALL HUMAN INTERPRETATIONS OF IT.
(b) “a law of faith,” Rom 3:27, i.e., a principle which demands only faith on man’s part;
(c) “the law of my mind,” Rom 7:23, that principle which governs the new nature in virtue of the new birth;
(d) “the law of sin,” Rom 7:23, the principle by which sin exerts its influence and power despite the desire to do what is right; “of sin and death,” Rom 8:2, death being the effect;
(e) “the law of liberty,” Jam 1:25; 2:12, a term comprehensive of all the Scriptures, not a “law” of compulsion enforced from without, but meeting with ready obedience through the desire and delight of the renewed being who is subject to it; into it he looks, and in its teaching he delights; he is “under law (ennomos, “in law,” implying union and subjection) to Christ,” 1Cr 9:21; cp., e.g., Psa 119:32, 45, 97; 2Cr 3:17;
(f) “the royal law,” Jam 2:8, i.e., the “law” of love, royal in the majesty of its power, the “law” upon which all others hang, Mat 22:34-40; Rom 13:8; Gal 5:14;
(g) “the law of the Spirit of life,” Rom 8:2, i.e., the animating principle by which the Holy Spirit acts as the imparter of life (cp. Jhn 6:63);
(h) “a law of righteousness,” Rom 9:31, i.e., a general principle presenting righteousness as the object and outcome of keeping a “law,” particularly the “Law” of Moses (cp. Gal 3:21);
These statements are from Strong’s and Greek Lexicon.
God has not done away with the things of Old, but has fulfilled them in Jesus and is fulfilling them in us.
We are the temple; God tabernacles with us; we are the priesthood; God is in Covenant with us; we are the True Israel…the children of Abraham; we do go through the wilderness; we still have sacrifices (Rom 12:1,2); We are still led by the Spirit of God; we are still bringing offerings to the Lord; we still have prophets; AND WE ARE CALLED TO FULFULL THE LAW AS CHRIST DID AND DOES.
Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
Jam 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.
Christ is not our Promised Land…that is a whole other comment in itself.
Christ is our REST from doing the law in our flesh…now the law is fulfilled by the Spirit within us as we follow Him, as it was with Jesus before His crucifixion.
BECAUSE OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD WITHIN US THE LAW IS NOW WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
* Matthew 5:17-20: Mat 5:17-20 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”[14]
* John 4:22: “‘You worship that which you don’t know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.’”[15]
* Romans 1:16-17: “For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, for it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes; for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, ‘But the righteous shall live by faith.’” [Habakkuk 2:4]“[16]
* Romans 2:28-29: “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.”[17]
* Romans 3:29-31: “Or is God the God of Jews only? Isn’t he the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith, and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law.”[18]
* Romans 9:6-8: “But it is not as though the word of God has come to nothing. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel. Neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children. But, ‘In Isaac will your seed be called.’ That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as a seed.”[19]
* Romans 10:12-13: “For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. For, ‘Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[Joel 2:32]“[20]
* Romans 11:1-6: “I ask then, did God reject his people? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God didn’t reject his people, which he foreknew. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says about Elijah? How he pleads with God against Israel: ‘Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have broken down your altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.’ But how does God answer him? ‘I have reserved for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.’ Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.”[21]
* Romans 11:26: “. . . and so all Israel will be saved.”[22]
* Galatians 2:14-16: “But when I saw that they didn’t walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, ‘If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do?’ We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.”[23]
* Galatians 3:29: “If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to promise.”[24]
* Ephesians 2:11-22, especially Ephesians 2:14: “For he [Jesus] is our peace, who made both [Jews and Gentiles] one, and broke down the middle wall of partition . . .”[25]
Amen to this message, and to virtually every word written above. Meet someone who is heading to the forty year mark in this wilderness. My experience has been so similar to what so many of you have shared. A Disclaimer here : The Lord Jesus did not mean my wilderness to be of such long and severe proportions.
This is my conviction. My own disobedience of far off days set the scene for the trials that would inevitably follow. (As for Israel in the desert.)
Romans 8:28, which I chose as my favourite verse as a new believer, has been a great comfort to me. I call it ‘the loser’s verse’ and ‘divine insurance’.
My experience in the last year has been that the Lord began strongly calling me in November last year to spend much time seeking His face. I spent little time on it, (forgive me,Lord), but when I did, He gave me a definite time frame. It is short. I took it to signal the time for the blessed promises to be fulfilled.
Then, in April 2010 He showed me that His Spirit was grieved beyond bearing. Something had gone VERY wrong. Shortly after that, He revealed what it was. I was devastated. The beautiful work He had been fashioning to be revealed after the wilderness experience, had been taken by profane hands and hurried through to the production of an Ishmael.
For about six weeks I was in total mourning, unable to believe that all God’s beautiful promises and confirmations could have been destroyed in one fell swoop. And I could share it with almost no-one.
Anyway, in the seventh week, God began to speak again that I should seek Him, even though all seemed lost.
As I set myself to seek Him in the usual ways, praying over every detail of the situation, He began to lead me.
My friends – NEVER GIVE UP !!! Keep pressing in hard in prayer, watching, and obeying.
As I have been seeking Him (and weeping) as never before, He has been speaking resurrection over the whole thing. Praise His Name !!!
One example; the other night I was clinging to Him in prayer, saying, ‘Lord, You will fulfil all You promised, won’t You, in spite of my having slept so many months when You were calling me to prayer ?’
A reference came clearly to my mind : Exodus 3:17.
It reads : ‘And I have said, “I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of (promise), unto a land flowing with milk and honey.”
Could He be any clearer ? Hallelujah !!!
In conclusion (sorry about the length):
Press in to God as never before.
Never give up.
Encourage one another.
From what I’m hearing from the Lord for myself, and from some of you, I BELIEVE THE TIME FOR GOD TO MOVE US OUT OF THE WILDERNESS IS VERY NEAR. Let’s be on full alert in His Spirit.
Bless you ALL. S.
Serenity, thank you for your wonderful testimony, my story sounds strikingly similar to yours – He is just so gracious and merciful it takes my breath away, and He turns it all around for good. I agree with you, the time is very near…the Lord bless you and be with all of us these last few miles..very soon now we’ll be like the mother who laboured and then forgot that there was even such a thing as pain in her joy at what she had brought forth.
This was very good read, but… I was reminded and of Psalms 106 I learned a lot in just this passage about the Israelites rebellion against God in the wilderness. We must never step out in front of Him and we all must always wait for Gods counsel and not our own. I pray as we that are truly within our tents and are in the wilderness and have been, do not find ourselves murmuring in our tents as the Isrealites did and making idols because of impatienceness. God wants all of our hearts, soul and mind:)
Psalms 106
1Praise the LORD!
Oh give thanks to the LORD, for He is good;
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
2Who can speak of the mighty deeds of the LORD,
Or can show forth all His praise?
3How blessed are those who keep justice,
Who practice righteousness at all times!
4Remember me, O LORD, in Your favor toward Your people;
Visit me with Your salvation,
5That I may see the prosperity of Your chosen ones,
That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation,
That I may glory with Your inheritance.
6We have sinned like our fathers,
We have committed iniquity, we have behaved wickedly.
7Our fathers in Egypt did not understand Your wonders;
They did not remember Your abundant kindnesses,
But rebelled by the sea, at the Red Sea.
8Nevertheless He saved them for the sake of His name,
That He might make His power known.
9Thus He rebuked the Red Sea and it dried up,
And He led them through the deeps, as through the wilderness.
10So He saved them from the hand of the one who hated them,
And redeemed them from the hand of the enemy.
11The waters covered their adversaries;
Not one of them was left.
12Then they believed His words;
They sang His praise.
13They quickly forgot His works;
They did not wait for His counsel,
14But craved intensely in the wilderness,
And tempted God in the desert.
15So He gave them their request,
But sent a wasting disease among them.
16When they became envious of Moses in the camp,
And of Aaron, the holy one of the LORD,
17The earth opened and swallowed up Dathan,
And engulfed the company of Abiram.
18And a fire blazed up in their company;
The flame consumed the wicked.
19They made a calf in Horeb
And worshiped a molten image.
20Thus they exchanged their glory
For the image of an ox that eats grass.
21They forgot God their Savior,
Who had done great things in Egypt,
22Wonders in the land of Ham
And awesome things by the Red Sea.
23Therefore He said that He would destroy them,
Had not Moses His chosen one stood in the breach before Him,
To turn away His wrath from destroying them.
24Then they despised the pleasant land;
They did not believe in His word,
25But grumbled in their tents;
They did not listen to the voice of the LORD.
26Therefore He swore to them
That He would cast them down in the wilderness,
27And that He would cast their seed among the nations And scatter them in the lands.
28They joined themselves also to Baal-peor,
And ate sacrifices offered to the dead.
29Thus they provoked Him to anger with their deeds,
And the plague broke out among them.
30Then Phinehas stood up and interposed,
And so the plague was stayed.
31And it was reckoned to him for righteousness,
To all generations forever.
32They also provoked Him to wrath at the waters of Meribah,
So that it went hard with Moses on their account;
33Because they were rebellious against His Spirit,
He spoke rashly with his lips.
34They did not destroy the peoples,
As the LORD commanded them,
35But they mingled with the nations
And learned their practices,
36And served their idols,
Which became a snare to them.
37They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons,
38And shed innocent blood,
The blood of their sons and their daughters,
Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan;
And the land was polluted with the blood.
39Thus they became unclean in their practices,
And played the harlot in their deeds.
40Therefore the anger of the LORD was kindled against His people
And He abhorred His inheritance.
41Then He gave them into the hand of the nations,
And those who hated them ruled over them.
42Their enemies also oppressed them,
And they were subdued under their power.
43Many times He would deliver them;
They, however, were rebellious in their counsel,
And so sank down in their iniquity.
44Nevertheless He looked upon their distress
When He heard their cry;
45And He remembered His covenant for their sake,
And relented according to the greatness of His lovingkindness.
46He also made them objects of compassion
In the presence of all their captors.
47Save us, O LORD our God,
And gather us from among the nations,
To give thanks to Your holy name
And glory in Your praise.
48Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel,
From everlasting even to everlasting.
And let all the people say, “Amen.”
Praise the LORD!
Sorry the words types and shadows trouble some, I’m perfectly content with them. There were many O.T. types of Christ and this example is used in Scripture; never-the-less Christ is not the
shadow He is the substance. The rest for Israel was IN the land, but our rest is in Christ, He is the Promise of God. You may or may not like the thought that He is the Promised land, but He is the Promised Rest. When Jesus proclaimed Him “The True Vine” He proclaimed Himself “The True Israel of God.” In the O.C. Israel was the vine who bore only wild fruit, the Kingdom was taken from Israel and given to a nation bearing the fruit of it; it meaning the Kingdom.
Many believers who have been given some kind of a leadership role in His church have become quite knowledgeable and successful in their ministries over the years. They might even have experienced a time of trying and testing in the wilderness.
However, even as sophisticated leader a believer must realize that at any moment the Lord might teach him something new, something that could turn out to be the greatest challenge so far in his ministry.
The Leaders of the Last Days
This is a Word to encourage all of us who are seeking a new level in their walk with Jesus. Would you like a challenge…? Are you willing to “jump”…? Are you ready for the “first harvest”…?
After I had asked the Lord to show me what it will take in the future for believers to effectively do His work, this is what He spoke to me:
“Many have walked on the ‘leading edge’ and I chose to do some of My work; but this is a new season, a final call before the great day of the trumpet. There will be no more ‘leading edge’ for I am going to cause you to jump off the edge. Yes, by faith, uncompromising faith, you must trust Me and jump! And as you leave the old ways behind, opening and renewing your mind, you will know that I am doing a new, a final thing.
“But before you jump you must take off your shoes, for behold, after I will catch you, I am going to set your feet on a truly solid ground; and I will give you new shoes that you must walk in. Shoes that will lead and empower you for good works.
“You will walk in the anointing and in the light of My righteousness. You will walk and not faint. You will walk with boldness and authority. You will surely trample on demons and serpents. You will walk on a strait and narrow path; the path that I, the Lord your God, have prepared for you.
“These are the days of the first harvest, My harvest. For I, Myself, am bringing into My house a people, selected and equipped for war. They will walk and talk in the Spirit, and with great power. They will be My road-crew, making a way in the desert; a strait road to Jerusalem. They will prepare the coming of the Lord, and they will bring in the great second harvest of many souls.”
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
There seem to be a lot of “Yes” men/women in the company of the prophets. I have read every post to now, and cannot find a negative post in the lot. Does that make everybody right, or everybody wrong?
There seems to be something terribly wrong with the picture that I am seeing, that it is a good thing to be in the wilderness and having God discipline you. This is like being happy that you are in the woodshed getting a spanking.
This is not where God wants you to be. He wants you to walk in the Spirit, enjoying the abundant Christian life, and never needing the discipline of the wilderness.
I don’t think you can pick out a word like “wilderness”, which appears 294 times in the KJV, and assume that each and every time that it appears that it means exactly the same thing. You need to limit your discussion to one specific example, such as the wilderness that the Israelites entered after crossing the Red Sea. Then you will all be talking apples and not including other fruit. To lump together the wilderness of Shur (Ex 15:22) with the wilderness identified in Rev 12:6, is a bit of a stretch.
I do not believe that time spent in the wilderness is God’s best for a believer; but is His second best. God offers to us an abundant life, which has all of the possibilities of the life that Jesus lived here on earth. Jesus was temped by Satan in the wilderness not because he needed the wilderness time, but as an example for us of how to walk when we do need a wilderness time for restitution.
The Israelites when they crossed the Red Sea should have only spent a short time, not forty years in the wilderness. They should have gone into the promised land by faith, after the land was explored by the twelve spys. The forty years in the wilderness was a penalty for the lack of faith of the people, and our times in the wilderness should also be penalty times for lack of faith (or obedience) in our daily walk with God.
Our normal Christian life should be walking in the Spirit (by faith), and enjoying the power, love, peace and favor of God in our lives.
If we do not walk by faith, and God does give us a time in the wilderness, it will be for the purpose of restoration, and He promises that in all things He works for the good of those who love Him. Our norm should not be in the wilderness, but in the Spirit.
Gary, I agree with what you say. In my earlier post I said that I was currently going through a so-called wilderness experience, but I think it would be more accurate to describe it simply as going through”various trials” (James I think). I
To share a little of my own experience, rather than just generalizing, the origins of this time of trials has been in a marriage that has gone very wrong, and where there was sin involved. During the last 4 years I have been trying to work out why it went so wrong and where to go from here. I found Gordon Macdonald’s book “Rebuilding your Broken World” excellent; he talks about the searching he did after his world collapsed and that is precisely what I have been doing – searching. I do believe that this period of the last 4 years has a purpose, and as I said in my earlier post I have learnt a lot during it.
But I do agree that this sort of time should not be the norm and that is why I feel so frustrated now, and am not convinced that it is where I should still be. This is what I wrote earlier
“But although I have learnt such a lot and in this respect HAVE moved forward, in other ways I feel I am going nowhere and that I SHOULD be going somewhere and that the reason for this is not that God wishes me to go through a wilderness for a time but simply because I am missing something God is saying to me, or perhaps I do hear what He says but am just not certain that it is Him speaking and therefore dare not act on it.” (or perhaps disobedience is involved – this is what I seek to find out).
I have reflected more on this wilderness (or desert as Andrew also says) message over the last couple of days. I think we do go through a time of trials that certainly feels like we are in a desert-like place, but I also believe that there comes a time when we know we should be out of it, and getting out of it demands action. I think there comes a time when we are not just “passive” (Andrew’s word) but almost start to wallow in it – “poor old me” sort of thing – instead of taking that action.
And the simple act of writing that spurs me on to do it!
The scriptures have lot to say about the wilderness, it’s simply a reality that the wilderness is what lies between us and the Promised Land (Sabbath rest of God). We can’t get to the Promised Land without traversing the wilderness. In the wilderness our flesh is dealt with, crucified. There is no way to by-pass the cross. It is through much tribulation we enter the kingdom of God. We are changed, when we suffer in the flesh we are done with sin. I like to look as Moses as an example, he was changed so much that he literally forgot what he used to be like. He started out as an excellent speaker it says in the epistles, he had natural talents, and yet by the time the Lord appeared to Him, Moses said that he had never been able to speak. He wasn’t lying, it’s just that he had forgotten his old self, he had become such a new creation.
As an intelligent, well-educated and gifted individual, one wonders why did he stay in the desert wilderness herding sheep. Why didn’t he seek out another centre of civilization and start a new life there where there would be more opportunities to make use of his advantages? I believe it was because through His mistake in killing the Egyptian slaver, and the ensuing consequences, he had learned the fear of the Lord, and was unwilling to go against God’s will that he should stay in the wilderness. I suspect many of us have learned the fear of the Lord through the mistakes we made, amen? And we ended up in a wilderness like Moses, as a result of those mistakes? Yes, our mistakes, but God’s sovereign plan to redeem us since He knows the end from the beginning.
Wilderness is a necessary part of how the Lord redeems us. The children of Israel did not stop on the other side of the Red Sea and make a life for themselves there, no, the pillar of smoke and cloud kept leading them to “tarry” and meander through the wilderness until the time was ripe for them to enter the promised land. There were other aspects of God’s plan besides their redemption, the Lord was also waiting for the sin of the Canaanites to reach fullness before He executed judgment through the Israelites.
But I notice that He led them through the wilderness as a Body, and brought them into the Promised Land as a Body – maybe there’s something in that for these last days. I wouldn’t want to bypass the wilderness because it is in the wilderness that the woman who gave birth to the man-child was cared for while the serpent went to make war with the rest of her off-spring. I believe the wilderness of God’s choosing is our place of safety and keeping by the Lord through the tribulation. Lord help me to never budge out of this place until you say so! But I think it won’t be long now.
Another thing, the wilderness is where we LEARN to rely on the Lord, where we learn to walk with the Lord – thank God that under the new covenant we have access to the Throne of Grace as we learn. This is where the Lord proves Himself to us and our faith is proven to Him. As long as we don’t roll off the altar, or if we do, make sure to get back up there ASAP, we can be assured of His grace and mercy when we are tempted to complain or tempted to break off His yoke. Some of the things we go through are horrendous, it’s meant to be, the whole point is to suffer, and as human beings we are not going to like it, but I don’t think we have to worry the earth is going to swallow us up if we vent a little. The ‘earth’ is a parable for the flesh, it means we are walking in the flesh during those moments of unbelief and doubt and fear. The answer is to learn to walk in the spirit, and that is the point of the wilderness, to teach us how – part of learning is learning from our mistakes sometimes.
Gary, that was good and thought provoking.
Perhaps even amidst the world we truly feel it is a wilderness living because we are set apart unto the Lord. So just maybe everything feels wilderness to us where ever we are and even are sent of the Lord. We live in these tents, vessels, His tabernacles, where He abides. One thing though, they were not to move unless He moved first and so it remains even today. For He changes not.
I dont agree with the spanking part concerning the wilderness because He led them out of Egypt to save them. They were called to come out. They were tried and tested in the wilderness. They were punished because they didnt heed ALL the words of the Lord and they rebelled. They brought judgement upon themselves because of disobedience unto God.
Again, He changes not.
Yes, He is our Promise Land and He is our True Rest when we cease from fleshly works and be attentive and sensitive to the leading of His Spirit, ears to hear and and eyes to see, so that we are surrendered and submitted wholly unto the Lord to walk in the ways of the Lord and in the Spirit of the Lord.
Yes, He judges our flesh. When it rises up, it might mean another session in the crucible is needed. But no condemnation – there is no condemnation if we are in Christ Jesus.
The joy of the wilderness experiences which the Lord takes us through is that we emerge from them more like Him – we see ourselves as we are and we see Him as He is and we choose to let Him live through us and not continue living ourselves.
The more wilderness experiences the Lord needs to take me through until Christ is formed in me the better as far as I’m concerned.
The joy is in the journey and the way of the righteous is like the first light of dawn growing ever brighter until the full light of day.
Thank You Jesus for Your work in our lives…
Sheepkinz wrote:
” I dont agree with the spanking part concerning the wilderness because He led them out of Egypt to save them. They were called to come out. They were tried and tested in the wilderness. They were punished because they didnt heed ALL the words of the Lord and they rebelled. They brought judgement upon themselves because of disobedience unto God.
Again, He changes not.”
“He Led them OUT of Egypt to SAVE THEM” (my caps for emphasis)
YES! IT WAS FOR FREEDOM THAT CHRIST SET US FREE!
Egypt represents BONDAGE. Christ wants His people completely FREE.
He has to take you OUT to bring you INTO THE PROMISE LAND, which is complete FREEDOM IN HIM. Apart from Him we can do NOTHING. IN HIM we can do EVERYTHING because we are completely FREE.
Not everyone who is sent into the wilderness will come out into the PROMISE LAND. Most DIED. They looked to the arm of the flesh.
They trusted in themselves and their works. That’s why they DIED.
But those who believe in the PROMISE WILL ENTER the PROMISE LAND which is COMPLETE freedom and liberty in Him.
The PROMISE is CHRIST and those who look to Him are CHANGED COMPLETELY into HIM.
“And we shall be LIKE Him” As He is, so are we in this world which is NOT our home.
Our HOME our kingdom, has a builder and His name is CHRIST.
And we are complete IN HIM, in which dwells the fulness, the ALL IN ALL.
The flesh GROANS but the SPIRIT gives LIFE.
Walk IN the SPIRIT and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
The SPIRIT WALK is our PROMISE LAND, which we “can” walk 24/7
in which fulfills ALL the law of Christ. In Him we live and move and have our being. Outside of Him is death. But in HIM we have LIFE and the fulness that dwells bodily.
It’s imperative that we walk in the Spirit says the Holy Spirit, for there we will have LIFE while dwelling in this foreign evil world filled with it’s own lusts, bondages and perversions. And of which we do not belong- if Christ PURCHASED you OUT of this world and made you His own.
Praise the Lord for those wonderful exhortations everyone! Manna for my spirit this morning, and it puts things into much clearer focus, at least for me.
Sometimes I’ve wondered if there are any blessed individuals who’ve learned this spirit walk without any wilderness, probably there are some rare souls like this somewhere, but for myself I’m encouraged that even Jesus had to learn obedience by the things which He suffered. And Moses even though he stumbled and wasn’t able to enter the Promised Land in his flesh, he wasn’t written off but still appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration.
>>> Jul 16th 2010 Gary Simpson writes:
There seem to be a lot of “Yes” men/women in the company of the prophets. I have read every post to now, and cannot find a negative post in the lot. Does that make everybody right, or everybody wrong?
There seems to be something terribly wrong with the picture that I am seeing, that it is a good thing to be in the wilderness and having God discipline you. This is like being happy that you are in the woodshed getting a spanking.
This is not where God wants you to be. He wants you to walk in the Spirit, enjoying the abundant Christian life, and never needing the discipline of the wilderness.<<<
Apparently you haven't read EVERY post, or how could you reach such a conclusion? A commonality of experience is not a matter of right / wrong as you seem to think.
Certainly for the rebellious majority of the nation of Israel the wandering was punishment – but not for Joshua and Caleb, and not for the younger generation that learned important lessons in the wilderness that enabled them to achieve victory in the promised land – although even they fell into errors (like their debacle with the Moabite women.) The 'wilderness' is not about PUNISHMENT – it is about training. If you need correction, be sure God will give it to you, whether you are in a 'wilderness' situation or not. Any idea that discipline is not needed, by everyone, is simply silly – or overly prideful.
“You should know in your heart that as a man chastens his son, so the Lord your God chastens you. Deuteronomy 8:5
He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly. Proverbs 13:24
You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears. Hebrews 12:4-17
Nor, for that matter, are all trials a matter of punishment. The idea that your life should be wonderful, free from any trials, whether spiritual, physical or financial, is standard 'prosperity Gospel' theology, but it is not supported in Scripture. How many reading this sat under 'prosperity' teaching and wondered why it didn't work? You did all the right things and you didn't get all the 'blessings' that they promised. You gave to TBN and never got ANY return, much less a hundred-fold. You declared all day long and sickness and trouble still came. Praise God – He delivered me from that foolishness!
Jesus said that in this life we WOULD HAVE tribulation, not that you would have 'You best life now.' Jesus said that the world would hate you, not send you money. This is part of the 'abundant' life – abundant trials. It cannot help but be that way, if you are truly walking after Jesus. All you have to do is look at the lives of every single person in Scripture. NONE were free from trials – not one.
Further, it is part and parcel of the 'prophetic movement' that introduced the Kundalini spirits into the Church to ignore the admonitions of Scripture:
1 Timothy 3:2-7 A bishop[Elder] then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Person after person is thrust into 'ministry' virtually on the heels of their conversion. Adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness and all manner of other vices are excused and allowed after a 'restoration' of mere months. There is no accountability to the body – instead they compare themselves among themselves and co-sign all manner of foolishness. If you are looking for 'yes-men' you can find virtually nothing but in that bunch.
Maturity, experience and time spent walking in obedience do count in the Kingdom. The 'wilderness' teaches many lessons – Listening, waiting on God, not stepping out in the flesh, leaning on the Holy Spirit, breaking the fear of man, the type of experience that Paul spoke of when he said: "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. …
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. … Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. …
Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. … and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. … I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” (Excerpts from Galatians 1:15-2:21)
If it is successful, the wilderness kills your pride. It also kills any dependence on yourself, your abilities, your ideas and your desires. Like John the Baptist, you emerge from nowhere into the ministry God has appointed you for and the world stands amazed. (Luke 1:60-80; 3:1-6) You say "He must increase and I must decrease" – and you really mean it. You are not in competition with the brethren, but are content with doing as you are bid by the Master. Seeing a brother with the gift of miracles while your gift is helps or hospitality moves you to praise God, not sulk because you are not in the limelight. You seek after what God has for you, not to be 'somebody.'
A dear friend of mine often says "God does not call the equipped, He equips the called." So, brethren, rejoice! You are being equipped! Your Father loves you and will see that you are prepared for what is coming.
Amen! I found your post very encouraging Seraphah, thanks for that..I laughed where you said, abundant life also means abundant trials – sometimes I say that we go through hell in this life in order to not have to go through it later. I keep telling myself, this is just light and momentary, light and momentary…lol :)
Seraphah wrote:
” The ‘wilderness’ is not about PUNISHMENT – it is about training. If you need correction, be sure God will give it to you, whether you are in a ‘wilderness’ situation or not. Any idea that discipline is not needed, by everyone, is simply silly – or overly prideful.”
Yep. God LOVES His children. He disciplines us for our own good.
Gary Simpson….You are correct…but only halfway.
Moses brought His people out of Egypt (which represents separation from the world to be in His Kingdom) THROUGH THE WILDERNESS BEFORE THEY SAW THE PROMISED LAND. God disciplined them in the wilderness for their IDOLATRY (the golden calf) BEFORE THEY SAW THE PROMISED LAND. This wilderness experience was for the purpose of “TAKING EGYPT(the worldliness they learned and desired) OUT OF THEIR HEARTS”.
His people STAYED IN THE WILDERNESS BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF(not trusting God or depending upon Him). THE CONTINUING WILDERNESS EXPERIENCE WAS FOR THE PURPOSE OF TEACHING THEM HOW TO BELIEVE AND TRUST GOD IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES AND SITUATIONS. BASICALLY HOW TO “WALK WITH GOD”. (what we call now WALK BY THE SPIRIT)
This is evidenced by the fact that God APPROVED of the following generation entering His Promised Land. This would not be possible if a transformation had not occurred in the previous generation.
Exd 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].
The wilderness is meant for “SETTING US APART” FROM THE WORLD AND FOR PURIFICATION OF OUR SOULS…..NOT DISCIPLINE.
When we do not understand the process, we do view the wilderness experience as discipline.
DISCIPLINE FROM GOD CAN COME 2 WAYS……
1)THE “EASY” WAY IN A PRAYER DIALOGUE WITH GOD….IN HIS HOLY PRESENCE. I prefer dying this way, thank you. I ask God to purify my soul whenever we are together in prayer. It is still painful to die before Him this way, but it is best.
2)THE HARD WAY…..when God has to use PRESSURE FROM THE OUTSIDE TO GET US TO SEE OR BEND THE KNEE . This is evidenced in the dealings that God had with the nation of Israel. God would come to them GENTLY FIRST……and they would not see nor believe. Then He would send AN ARMY TO ATTACK THEM.
All of our decisions and choices should be made by God now, if we walk by His Spirit. But we have 1 choice He has left to us. ABSOLUTE SURRENDER.
WE CAN CHOOSE TO BEND THE KNEE NOW, WILLINGLY IN TRUST AND BELIEF; OR HE WILL BEND IT FOR US.
EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW.
The Israelites learned to bow their knee in absolute surrender in trust and belief in the second part of their wilderness, which resulted in the next generation of Israelites being raised as a nation who was set apart to God. That generation entered the Promised Land.
To those who believe that Jesus is our Promised Land….take a look at the PHYSICAL PATTERN OF THE PROMISED LAND THAT GOD GAVE US IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.
THAT PHYSICAL PROMISED LAND WAS FILLED WITH THE ENEMIES OF GOD…THAT WERE TO BE CONQUERED AND DESTROYED BY GOD HIMSELF LEADING HIS KINGDOM.
Now how does that describe or compare to our precious Lord Jesus?
The Promised Land is twofold. It is a spiritual promised land and a physical promised land.
Obviously, the NEW EARTH IS OUR PHYSICAL PROMISED LAND.
But the spiritual promised land is the Kingdom of Darkness (filled with God’s enemies) that God conquers and destroys in the hearts of people, people like us. Then the Kingdom of God , the Spiritual Promised Land, is set up in those hearts. JESUS IS THE KING…NOT THE KINGDOM. JESUS RULES OVER THE PROMISED LAND.
Thank you, Andrew, for this article.
Thank you, brothers and sisters, for so many positive comments. It is apparent that a number of us have or are going through wilderness experiences. Mine has been 19 years to date – and the Lord told me near the beginning this was what He was doing. I had to learn that He’s the boss and He knows what He is doing.
Below is a poem I came across years ago which might be of encouragement to you all.
Whom God Chooses
by Henry F. Lyte (author of hymns like Abide with Me; Jesus,I My Cross Have Taken and other hymns and poems)
When God wants to drill a man,
and thrill a man, and skill a man,
When God wants to mold a man,
To play the noblest part;
When He yearns with all His heart
To create so great and bold a man,
That all the world shall be amazed,
Watch his methods; watch His ways.
How He ruthlessly perfects
When He royally elects!
How He hammers him and hurts him
And with mighty blows converts him
Into trial shapes of clay
Which only God understands;
While his tortured heart is crying,
And He lifts beseeching hands!
How He bends but never breaks
When His good He undertakes.
How He uses whom he chooses,
And with every purpose fuses him;
But every act induces him
To try His splendor out –
God knows what He’s about!
Go then, earthly fame and treasure!
Come disaster, scorn, and pain!
In Thy service, pain is pleasure;
With Thy favor, loss is gain.
I have called Thee, Abba, Father;
I have stayed my heart on Thee.
Storms may howl, and clouds may gather;
All must work for good to me.
The wilderness is not for “punishment” but clearly for testing, training and preparation. To be honest, I believe that a leader who has never been there may not have the qualifications to lead God’s people.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly Andrew. I find I don’t seem to even have any fellowship with other believers who don’t understand what it is to suffer and have some ‘wilderness’ under their belt, much less able to trust leaders who lack this grounding experience. We’re being formed into soldiers, toughened and hardened in some ways, but tenderized in others. In several places we’re called to endure, and endure to the end. What are we being called to endure then, if not some form of suffering, some form of wilderness..
There are many reports of wilderness experiences in the Bible.
However, has anything changed since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and it was finished? And if so, how would the wilderness experience today differ from the OT wilderness accounts?
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
And, not to forget a very important detail after Jesus left; we have the Holy Spirit to lead, guide and comfort us.
In chapter fourteen of John, Jesus, as if by introduction, said, Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God. Believe in me also. In this same chapter, He also said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you know me, you know my Father also. The final discourse begins with chapter fifteen.
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit He takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, He prunes and purges so it may bring forth more fruit. Now you are clean through the WORD which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abide in the vine, no more can you unless you abide in me.
I am the vine. You are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, brings forth much fruit; for, without me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is a branch that is cut off and will wither. Men gather these and cast them into the fire to be burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, all that you ask will be done. This is how my Father is glorified; that you bear much fruit and, by doing so, are my disciples.
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Continue in my love. If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in His love. I tell you this so that my joy will remain in you and your joy will be full.
This is my commandment, That you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends. If you do what I command you, I do not call you servants. The servant does not know what his lord does. But I call you friends because ALL that I have heard from my Father, I have made known to you.
You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you so you will go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit will remain so that whatever you ask of the Father in my name, He will give it to you.
These things I command you, that you love one another.
If the world hates you, you know that it hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own, but you are not of the world. I have chosen you out of the world. Therefore the world will hate you. Remember that I told you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they have kept my word, they will keep yours also. But they will do all these things to you for my name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent me.
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would be innocent of sin. But now they have no cloak to hide their sin. He who hates me hates my Father also. If I had not done works which no other man has done, they would not have sin. But now they have seen and hated both me and my Father.
This all comes to pass so that the WORD might be fulfilled that is written in their law: They hated me without a cause. But when the Comforter comes, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about me and you also will bear witness because you have been with me from the beginning.
I am telling you these things so you are not offended. They will put you out of the churches. The time will come when whoever kills you will think that he does God a service. They will do these things to you because they have not known the Father nor me.
I did not tell you these things at the beginning because I was with you, but now I am going away to the one who sent me. None of you ask, Where are you going? but because I have said these things sorrow has filled your hearts.
I tell you the truth, it is best for you that I go away. If I do not go the Comforter will not come to you, but if I depart, I will send Him to you. When He (THE HOLY SPRIT) comes He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. Of sin, because they do not believe in me. Of righteousness, because I go to my Father and you see me no more. Of judgment, because the evil one who is prince of this world is condemned.
I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. However, when the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truth because He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will reveal. He will show you things to come. He will glorify ME because He will take from what is my own and reveal it to you. All things that the Father has are mine and that is why I said He will take from my own and reveal it to you. In a little while you will not see me. Then, in a little while, you will see me, because I am going to the Father.
Then some of His disciples said among themselves,
What is this that He said to us? In a little while you will not see me? And in a little while you will see me, because I am going to the Father? What is this little while? We cannot tell what He said. Now Jesus knew that they wanted to ask Him, and He said to them, Are you wondering about In a little while you will not see me, and, in a little while, you will see me?
I tell you, You will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful but your grief will be turned into joy. When a woman is in labor she is troubled because her hour has come, but as soon as she delivers the child she remembers her anguish no more because of her joy over a new birth to the world. So you now have sorrow. I will see you again and your heart will rejoice. No one can take your joy from you.
In that day you will need to ask nothing of me. Whatever you ask the Father in my name, He will give you.
Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask and you will receive, so your joy may be full.
I have said these things as examples. But the time will come when I will use no more examples because I will show you plainly from the Father. On that day you will ask Him in my name and I will not have to say that I will ask the Father for you.
For the Father Himself loves you because you love ME and believe that I came from God. I came from the Father and have come into the world. Now I leave the world and go to the Father.
His disciples said to Him, now you speak plainly. Jesus said, Do you now believe? The hour comes, yes, has now come, when you will be scattered and on your own. You will leave me alone. Yet, I am not alone because the Father is with me. I have said these things to you so that, in me, you will have peace.
In the world you will have tribulation but, be of good cheer, because I have overcome the world.
Jesus spoke these words.
Then He lifted His eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify thy Son so that thy Son may also glorify thee, as you have given Him power over all flesh so He could give eternal life to as many as you have given Him. This is life eternal, that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have glorified you on the earth. I have finished the work that you gave me to do.
Now, glorify me, Father, with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. I have manifested your name to those you gave me from the world. They were yours and you gave them to me. They have kept YOUR word. Now they know that all things you have given me are from you. I have given them the words that you gave me. They have received them and they know truly that I came from you, and they have believed that you did send me.
I pray for them. I do NOT pray for the world, but for those you have given me, because they are yours. All of mine are yours, just as yours are mine; and I am glorified in them. Now I am in the world no more but they are in the world. I come to thee, Holy Father. Keep, through your own name, those you have given me, so they may be one, just as we are One.
While I was with them in the world I kept them in your name. I have kept those that you gave me. None of them is lost, except the son of perdition so that the scripture would be fulfilled. Now I come to you and speak these things in the world so they will have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
I have given them YOUR word.
The world has hated them because they are not of the world as I am not of the world. I do not pray that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from evil. They are not of the world as I am not of the world. Perfect them through YOUR truth. Your WORD is truth. As you have sent me into the world, so I have also sent them into the world. For their sakes, I sanctify myself that they also might be perfected through the truth.
Neither do I pray for these alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their word so that they all may be one, as you, Father, are in me, and I in you. They also may be one in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. And the glory which you gave me, I have given them, so they may be made perfect in one, as we are One, and so the world may know that you have sent me, and love them as you love me.
Father, I wish those you gave me may also be with me where I am. May they behold my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the world began. O righteous Father, the world has not known you, but I have known you, and the ones you have sent me have known you. I have declared your name to them.I declare that the love, with which you have loved me, be in them, and I in them.
THERE ARE NO (SPIRITUAL) “LEVELS” AND THERE IS NO NOTION OF A SPIRITUAL ARMY TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE.
JESUS TAUGHT FAITHFULNESS TO THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD AS THE MEANS OF SALVATION.
FAITHFULNESS TO THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD IS WHAT SEPARATES THE PEOPLE OF GOD FROM THE WORLD.
THE DESIRE AND ABILITY TO BE AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE WORD OF GOD IS MADE AVAILABLE TO US BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO HAS COME TO CONFIRM HIS WORD.
Everyone that comes out of Egypt (bondage) and goes through the Red Sea (baptism) goes into the wilderness (carnal living) where they either fall in the desert (goats) or cross the Jordan (sheep). You can only enter the promised land by faith.
Our entry into the promised land (God’s rest) is not when we die, but in the land of the living (here and now). It is the abundant Christian life that God offers to every believer. It is a walk by faith and not by sight, and a walk under the control of the Holy Spirit rather than our old nature. That old nature must die, and remain in the wilderness.
No one can walk in the Spirit without first going through the wilderness, and gaining victory over (putting off) their flesh. The wilderness represents our being controlled by our flesh, and the promised land represents our being controlled by the Holy Spirit. God would never lead a person to return to being controlled by their flesh again, but Satan sure would.
The wilderness is where God deals with our flesh.
COL 2:11 In him (Christ) you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
The problem that I see, is that you seem to be confusing a wilderness experience with the dicipline of God,
You seem to be teaching that a person who walks in the Spirit (promised land) can expect to periodicallly have dry periods in their walk, which you are calling wilderness experienes (I would call discipline), and that you imply that God will again lead them into, through, and out of the wilderness again and again.
I see this as unbiblical. God never did that with the nation of Israel (lead them back into the wilderness of Shur). They were disobedient, and He disciplined them (sent them to Babylon), but disipline deals with restoration of those sons of God who have arrived (in the promised land), whereas the wilderness deals with those babes in Christ who have not yet arrived (simply come through the Red Sea).
Discipline may have many repeated experiences, where as the wilderness is a one time occurance.
Discipline from God is His method of dealing with disobedience in our lives. (as many times as it takes)
The wilderness experience is His method of dealing with the flesh in our lives. (the putting off of the sinful nature-one time experience)
If God is dealing with you in the wilderness (carnality), it is because you have not yet been spiritually circumcised by God, and have never yet made it to the promised land (life in the Spirit).
The only way out of the wilderness, is by faith, to step into the raging Jordan River at flood stage. Completely trusting God is the only way out.
The failure of the children of Israel to enter into the promised land the first time they arrived at its borders is one of the great tragedies recounted in Torah. They had witnessed the delivering power of God in leading them from bondage to freedom and seen His miraculous protection at work for them on every hand.
Yet, when they came to the borders of the Promised Land, and could have entered into its rest, they hesitated and drew back in fear, and so, for 40 years they wandered in the wilderness. They failed to enter into the Promised Land because of unbelief. When they stood at the borders of the land they had no doubts at all that the land was there. They had no doubts the land contained everything God had promised. The scouts had told them so, and some had brought back evidence of the produce of the land. But they failed to put their belief into action, and thus walked back into the wilderness. Faith is more than mere belief, faith is acting upon that belief. The old Welsh theologians used to say that faith has three components: knowledge, self-committal and trust. All three have to be in operation for faith to reach its goal.
The writer of the book of Hebrews is making the point in verse 1 of chapter 4 that the same good news that was given to the children of Israel has been given also to us. The goal of all that God wants to do for us on this earth is to bring us from a life of striving in our own flesh to rest and confidence in Him.
Note the core problem with which the children of Israel constantly struggled; ‘those who heard did not combine it with faith’. They heard the good news but they did not act upon the message. This was the underlying cause of their great struggle.
And, this is where we, too, will fall unless we are extremely careful. It is not enough to believe – belief needs to be put into action. When all is said and done, more is said than done. In the realm of faith, as in other realms, talk is cheap. What matters is action.
based on Hebrews, chapters 1-4 and Selwyn Hughes perspective.
Wayne wrote:
JESUS TAUGHT FAITHFULNESS TO THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD AS THE MEANS OF SALVATION.
FAITHFULNESS TO THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD IS WHAT SEPARATES THE PEOPLE OF GOD FROM THE WORLD.
THE DESIRE AND ABILITY TO BE AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE WORD OF GOD IS MADE AVAILABLE TO US BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO HAS COME TO CONFIRM HIS WORD.
Comment:
1- Remember that everything that Jesus taught, He taught to Jews who were under the Old Covenant Law. Is it any surprise that He would teach them to do what the Law said? He couldn’t do otherwise.
It was not until after Jesus died, that the New Covenant (Church age) began, and the New Law (of the Spirit of Life) set me free from the Law of Sin and Death (Rom 8:2).
2- Faithfulness to the revealed word of God separates the Jew from the world.
3- Faithfulness (obedience) to the leading of the Spirit of God (Rom 8:14) separates a son of God from the Jew and the world.
4- Obedience to the written word of God (Bible) is impossible for man, but obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit is God’s New Covenant way, as it says in 2 Cor 3:6:
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Well. Just read this now and was just sitting today, frustrated, talking to the Lord, not exactly praying but thinking that this was all there is to life. Thank you all, bros. and sisters, for being frank and commenting on your journeys. It gives me hope.
I think because of the kind of days we live in, more wilderness will be expected. In fact, I am glad to be in a wilderness even though it’s depressive, sad, lonely, painful, financially difficult……because I am so pressed down that I could not handle the world out there. The world is a cruel place and if the Lord wants me in a place where I am too afraid to work, too sick to work, not able to lift up a depressed husband, son, no family, relatives, friends, church, 2 years not speaking or hearing from any old christian friends……I am starting to like being alone.
This was my prayer today. Lord I am really scared because I am starting to feel addicted to being a homebody, doing housework and yard work, yes, but never having any exchange with other humans, except my children, of whom I see infrequently. I jump and hate it when my phone rings. Sounds like a great inspiration, doesn’t it?
All commenters here are probably having so much more difficulty than I, and I am praying you all don’t get discouraged like I so easily do. The wilderness at first was easy to endure, I had great faith, but each day with lack and no encouragement, I slowly became scared of meeting people, being with people, even trying to visit a church meeting people. It’s like claustrophobia. I simply do not want to see anyone, or try to be a friend anymore. I simply panic to go to doctor’s office, anything. I was never like this. This development unfortunately led me to depend on anti-depressive medication.
I would like to ask, is this a wilderness experience? Or is it just an ordinary menopausal woman’s journey of life? Like some questioned in their comments, how do we know whether our trials are just a natural process of getting older, with wear and tear on our bodies, depression, anxiety caused by our sinful natures, or preparation for doing the Lord’s calling?
Sorry, with all the questions, I have one more. When should we accept our plight and maybe take the wilderness as a sign that we are not called. The church taught me that everyone is called. But for what? I actually have to say that I don’t feel called to do anything. Is there anyone else out there like this?
Jacqueline wrote:
Sorry, with all the questions, I have one more. When should we accept our plight and maybe take the wilderness as a sign that we are not called. The church taught me that everyone is called. But for what? I actually have to say that I don’t feel called to do anything. Is there anyone else out there like this?
Comment:
About ten years ago, I felt much like you do. I was depressed and thinking if this was the best that the church had to offer, what was so great about it? It certainly wasn’t what I expected the abundant Christian life to be like.
As a result, I cried out to God and explained this to Him. His answer to me was to read Romans chapter eight until He told me to stop. I read it over, and over, and over, for about 30 days before i began to see what it was teaching (life in the Spirit).
My transition from being a carnal person in the wilderness to a Spirit filled Christian in the promised land was gradual process that took probably 2-3 years.
The process involves dying to self (God does this)
and surrender of your entire being to the Holy Spirit
and surrender of your entire being to the Holy Spirit
and surrender of your entire being to the Holy Spirit
and surrender of your entire being to the Holy Spirit
day in and day out 24/7/365
Galatians 2:20 will become your life verse:
20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Your life will be miraculously transformed.
-You will no longer live (direct your life), but Christ will.
-You will no longer think your thoughts, but Christ’s thoughts
-You will no longer do your will, but Christ’s will
-You will no longer speak your words, but Christ’s words
-You will no longer act in your own power, but in Christ’s power
-You will no longer commit sinful acts, because Christ does not sin
-You will not get depressed, because Christ is not depressed
-You will love as God loves, and you will walk with God.
This is the normal Christian Life, and it is for you.
I don’t walk in the wilderness any more, and neither do you need to.
I sometimes am disciplined by God, but I am never depressed.
I certainly continue to grow each year, but I am a mature believer
I see God work in amazing ways in my life.
I walk in the Spirit every moment of every day. It is not me that makes this happen, but God that keeps me in the palm of His hand. I am experiencing the abundant Christian life, here and now.
So can any one who is willing to surrender all, and walk in faith (trust God in every area of your life).
The Bible says that we don’t have because we don’t ask, and that if we ask (with right motives) He hears us and will grant our request.
If you really mean it, ask, and He will be faithful to grant you your request. Remember though, it will cost you everything that you will ever have.
Remember also, it is worth it!
Gary Simpson wrote:
You can only enter the promised land by faith.
Our entry into the promised land (God’s rest) is not when we die, but in the land of the living (here and now). It is the abundant Christian life that God offers to every believer. It is a walk by faith and not by sight, and a walk under the control of the Holy Spirit rather than our old nature.
If God is dealing with you in the wilderness (carnality), it is because you have not yet been spiritually circumcised by God, and have never yet made it to the promised land (life in the Spirit).
The only way out of the wilderness, is by faith, to step into the raging Jordan River at flood stage. Completely trusting God is the only way out.
Thank you, Gary! Faith is indeed the key!
——————————————————————————
Jaqueline,
I believe that God might call you to “jump”, NO STRINGS ATTACHED, into His open arms. As I have previously written concerning the Word He gave me, it is ABSOLUTE faith that pleases Him and brings us freedom. Many of us walk close to the edge and then we say, “see Lord. I am really walking by faith, so close to the edge.” But God wants to bring us to the point where we are willing to actually jump off. Like a child jumping from a tall place into his daddy’s arms, completely trusting and never wondering if He might catch him. That is the kind of faith that God is looking for. In Matthew we read that unless we come like a little child…
May the Lord bless you as you continue to trust Him.
All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Jacqueline, I do not believe that it is God’s work that has caused you to feel as you do. Depression, anxiety and loss of hope is not the Holy Spirit. But please, don’t take that as either a condemnation or a negation of you faith or salvation.
I understand what you are talking about. According to so many, you are supposed to get ‘stronger in the LORD’ as time goes on. The truth is, we are not supposed to get stronger, we are supposed to get weaker – to die to self and stand in HIS strength, not our own.
It is difficult to deal with ‘Christians’ who parrot the ‘I have Jesus so my life is wonderful’ or ‘You’re supposed to prosper – if you aren’t prospering, you don’t have enough faith.’ Alternatively, those who ‘exhort’ you to ‘Get up and DO something!’ So many say they have their mighty ‘calling’ and act as though you must have one as well.
But what if God didn’t tell you to do anything? What then?If you know you have a calling but God hasn’t told you to ‘go and do’ – what then? Do you go do something anyway? Many have, many do. And many fail, because they have stepped out in their flesh trying to do the work of God. They have no anointing, no power and no mandate. And so many have fallen into using man’s methods to prop up their ‘ministries’ that are works of the flesh and condemned themselves in the process.
Now, don’t get me wrong – I’m not advocating hiding in a hole and ignoring life. I do the things life demands and look for the opportunities God gives me to do His will as I go. You can do the same, even if you never leave your house.
My Mom prayed. I firmly believe that her intercession kept me from killing myself through my hedonistic lifestyle when I was so deeply in rebellion to God. When she was stricken with Parkinson’s disease, she went downhill very fast. Within 2 years she was bedridden, being fed through a stomach tube and unable to speak, write or do much of anything. But she STILL PRAYED – and her prayers were still powerful.
If you can’t do anything else, Jacqueline, you have plenty of time to pray. While you work around your home, pray. If you hear a siren, pray for any involved in the emergency. When you see the mailman, or someone walking by, pray for God’s will to be manifested in their life. Pray for people on the news. Prayer is NOT a small thing – “The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous woman avails much.”
You ask “When should we accept our plight and maybe take the wilderness as a sign that we are not called. The church taught me that everyone is called. But for what? I actually have to say that I don’t feel called to do anything. Is there anyone else out there like this?”
I cannot say why you are where you are. Whether your circumstance is God’s plan or satan’s attack. I can, however, tell you this – we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. You ARE called. We all are. What that means in each of our lives is as individual as we are. I do not know what God may or may not have called you to – He has not told me that.
But I can give you something that God told me years ago:
Thus saith the LORD -
“In the space between now and forever
there is a place that can only be occupied by God.
The sun rises and sets without any man’s hand winding it up.
Seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months and years pass only at My pleasure and My discretion.
I AM in charge of the universe and nothing happens that I do not cause or allow.
In the vastness of the universe you are less than a speck
yet within My will you could be the pivot on which the whole world turns.
Never presume that the place you occupy or the things you do or say IN MY WILL are small things. For you do not know what small things My whole plan may hinge on.
There are no limits.
All things are possible to those that believe.
And I AM prepared to do great and wondrous things
through those that are prepared.
Relax, I have held the universe in My hands for eons
and have never lost the tiniest particle.”
Be blessed, sister, and be encouraged. You are loved and accepted in Jesus Christ.
“The LORD bless you and keep you;
The LORD make His face shine upon you,
And be gracious to you;
The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,
And give you peace.” Amen.
“Gary Simpson” wrote:
“My transition from being a carnal person in the wilderness to a Spirit filled Christian in the promised land was gradual process that took probably 2-3 years.
The process involves dying to self (God does this)
and surrender of your entire being to the Holy Spirit
and surrender of your entire being to the Holy Spirit
and surrender of your entire being to the Holy Spirit
and surrender of your entire being to the Holy Spirit
day in and day out 24/7/365″
Thank you for sharing your testimony here “Gary Simpson”… :-)
I’m going to quote a post I made in the Members section of the website (http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/bbpress/topic/389) in response to a post from “Dependant on Grace” to outline the understanding of our journey, whether it’s defined as “wilderness” or “discipline” or “growth” or “from glory to glory” or “the way of the righteous is as the first light of dawn growing ever brighter until the full light of day” (remembering that the letter killeth but the Spirit gives life):
“Wow, “Dependant on Grace”, this is quite amazing cos earlier today I was thinking about an analogy of our journey with the Lord and I had the same thought as you, we climb and reach a plateau, we’re very happy for a time and then it’s up to the next section which is steeper, we struggle up this section and then reach another plateau and enjoy the breather and have a time of peace and then it’s on to a yet steeper and torturous slope where we are painfully aware that the Lord is our mountain guide going before us and choosing the route up the slope which is getting near to vertical, again we emerge to a plateau and have a breather and yet we know there’s still more ahead. It gets to a stretch where we’re practically rock climbing and going from hand hold to hand hold and yet the confidence has grown and we know that the Lord has gone before us and will meet us at the next plateau…
I really don’t know if we ever reach “the top” in this life time, the Apostle Paul didn’t claim that he had, but he did say that he pressed on to take hold of that for which Christ had taken hold of Him…”
I was also wondering “Gary Simpson” if by any chance the Lord led you to read Rees Howells Intercessor by Norman Grubb during your 2-3 years “wilderness” experience?
I was also wondering whether you believe that the Lord has “perfected you in love” “Gary Simpson” and if you do, whether you believe that He did this before He brought you into “the promised land”? This is a genuine question, I’m trying to get to the bottom of something here. Please feel free to share personal testimonies in your response. I understand personal testimonies… :-)
Correction:
“…to outline my understanding of our journey…”
Te best place to examine Satan’s tactic and methodology of temptation is the temptation of Eve in Genesis 3:1-6: “Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
SATAN said to the woman, ‘Has God indeed said?
This is the tactic being repeated over and over again everytime any body questions the absolutely authority of the Word of God as the sole basis of our faith and the means for assessing spiritual activity of any kind.
It is absolutely imperative that any “leading” we believe to be from the HOLY SPIRIT be assessed in terms of its conformity to the WORD of GOD (The Bible),
Hold fast to that which is good (consistent with the Scriptures)
REJECT ALL that is bad false or contrary to the revealed Word of God. This is the warning of the BIBLE and every true representative of the one true God.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
The HOLY SPIRIT has come to CONFIRM the Word of God as revealed to us in the BIBLE NOT CONDEMN IT.
Only Satan would attemt to convince people to follow “leadings” without testing them against the Word of God which has been given to us as the ultimate safeguad against delusion. The BIBLE warns that God has sent delusion to test those who do NOT love the Truth.
Christians are said to be baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire. He worketh as fire, by enlightening, enlivening, and purifying the souls of men. As fire is put out by taking away fuel, and as it is quenched by pouring water, or putting a great deal of earth upon it; so we must be careful not to quench the Holy Spirit, by indulging carnal lusts and affections, minding only earthly things. Believers often hinder their growth in grace, by not giving themselves up to the spiritual affections raised in their hearts by the Holy Spirit. By prophesyings, here understand the preaching of the word of God as revealed to us in the scriptures (Bible) interpreting and applying the Scriptures to our lives.
We must not despise preaching, though it is plain, and we are told no more than what we knew before. We must search the Scriptures. Proving all things must be to hold fast that which is good. We should abstain from sin, and whatever looks like sin, leads to it, and borders upon it. He who is not shy of the appearances of sin, who shuns not the occasions of it, and who avoids not the temptations and approaches to it, will not long keep from doing sin.
TO AVOID DECEPTION in these dangerous days
ALWAYS REMEMBER:
JESUS TAUGHT FAITHFULNESS TO THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD AS THE MEANS OF SALVATION.
FAITHFULNESS TO THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD IS WHAT SEPARATES THE PEOPLE OF GOD FROM THE WORLD.
THE DESIRE AND ABILITY TO BE AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE WORD OF GOD IS MADE AVAILABLE TO US BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO HAS COME TO CONFIRM HIS WORD.
Jacqueline – your experience sounds very similar to my own. When I came to this house 26 years ago with my husband and one child (we had 3 more) I felt this place was in the middle of nowhere, and although I have had happy times here (it is beautiful) it has now become extremely lonely for me. Marital problems have added to that to make things worse. I can identify completely with much of what you say – the reluctance to go out, to meet people, feeling Christian friends don’t contact me. Everything for me is an effort, even when I know it will do me good. I too did not used to be like this. And I too am of that menopausal age so have wondered how much of it is due to hormonal changes etc.
I have asked myself how much longer I can carry on enduring this sort of life. I know I have learnt an awful lot, and continue to, but I do not believe that this is the sort of life that God wants me (or you perhaps) to go on living any longer. I have often thought to myself that this is just something God has sent me to cope with but I think there comes a point when this is not the way He wants you to live. There has got to be something wrong (disobedience? not listening to God properly? not praying enough?) when we are living such lonely lives, and so full of depression. I keep asking God to show me what to DO, because I think the time HAS come to DO something, but it is knowing what to do that is the problem. It is not always easy to know if you are hearing God even if you do take care to see if what you think He is saying accords with scripture.
The verse that has come back to me again and again has been Matt.6:33 – Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you. I have also been thinking a lot about total surrender to God, total reliance on Him, and about how not many Christians actually do that. I certainly have met very few, if any, who are totally reliant on God.
Andrew’s message seems to me to be talking mainly about LEADERS being taken into the wilderness (and the biblical examples given are all of great leaders) for a period of preparation. I wonder if it is the same, or not, for we who are not leaders (or are ever going to be)?
This is a bit muddled I think!
What is helpful I think is when people give more personal examples (as Jacqueline has done) of what exactly is going on in their lives, rather than just saying that they have been going through the wilderness for how ever many years.
Hi “lizzie”, I shared the below in the Members area (http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/bbpress/topic/382) earlier on in the week about what I’ve learnt to date from my “wilderness” experience, I’ve copied the main post of this from there and re-pasted it below, the question which prompted my response was about laying down God-given dreams or words or visions or promises from the Lord on the altar:
“…I went through this process where just before and just after my marriage to Nancy, which is just over 10 years ago now, the Lord gave me an incredible number of prophetic words from different people. It seemed anywhere I went I was getting these prophetic words and they were all saying the same thing, i.e. there was an agreement in the Spirit and it also confirmed what the Lord had previously told me individually.
I fully expected those things to just happen straight away for them to just continue straight on into being, but that was not what happened, in fact the opposite happened. We, Nancy and I came under incredible persecution from “the church”, we came under incredible attack in our own personal lives, our two older children came under attack when we started having our little children they came under attack.
We lost “friends”, we lost “ministry opportunities”, we lost “respectability” before men because of the lies which were told about us by “church leaders”, plus we had our own “personal demons” to deal with.
I came to a place where I laid my call and every prophetic word about it on the altar and said to the Lord, “Your will be done” and let go. If it never came back, it never came back. I came to the end of myself with respect to my call and surrendered to be a structural engineer “working with my hands” for the rest of my life if that was the will of God.
If God was going to “bring back the call from the ashes” so to speak that was His business. I let it go. I let go of my passion for revival also. I gave it back to the Lord. This all happened around the time that the Lord told me to go into the wilderness or to follow Him into the wilderness.
I am a song writer also and I laid this down completely. I love playing the piano and yet I laid this down also. I stopped “trying to be godly” or “hold on to my faith” I laid it all on the altar and said to the Lord, “There You go, You do what You’re going to do” and then I kept living doing the things which He placed on my heart to do every day. Minding my own business. Working with my hands. Knowing the promises of God in the back of my mind and being pained that they were not seeming to be coming to pass.
Being patient as the death process to the vision progressed and yet also becoming more and more dissilusioned with the whole thing. It was a literal death for me and very painful.
All this came to a head in mid-March this year where the Lord gave me that scripture from Daniel which Nebuchadnezzar spoke,
“He does according to His will in the hosts of heaven and on earth and no one can stay His hand or say to Him ‘what hast thou done’”
I had been telling the Lord that I was not very impressed with the work which He’d been doing in my life, I was pouring out my heart before the Lord and I told Him plainly that I thought He was taking far too long in accomplishing His work in me and making me ready for the call which He had on my life, because the annoying thing was that during this period, periodically He would remind me of the call in vivid detail and then leave me to “plod on” again as if nothing had happened.
Anyway, that scripture broke me, I sat where I sit now in my studio apartment here in Manila and wept and wept and wept, I was so sorry for speaking back against God – I had needed to do it to get it out – but He brought it with such tenderness yet firmness to me that He was in absolute control and that everything that I was going through was necessary for Him to establish His character, His life in me.
A few days later I continued my whinging – I just had to get it out – and I will never forget the words I heard Him speaking to me, “Do not mock Me, Do not mock Me, Do not mock Me”, over and over maybe 5 or 6 times He said it and with deep conviction so much so that I had to support myself against a wall to physically stand up, again I cried and cried but He said clearly that He had “forsaken me” – I know what He meant, He was not angry with me but just like Jesus was forsaken by the Father on the cross the Lord had wanted to get me to a place where even if none of the words which He’d spoken to me ever happened I’d trust Him anyway. I’d come to that place just previous to this word, “Do not mock me” but I was still whinging. He fully understood me He wasn’t saying that I was mistaken that He’d “abandoned me” – again I know what He meant – but He was asking me to trust Him that it had been necessary and was for my good. He was firm, incredibly firm and yet incredibly gentle and reassuring.
He told me clearly then and in the days that followed that everything He’d told me previously would surely come to pass and I have great confidence that it will because I let it go and He has given it back to me.
That is my testimony to this point in time.”
Exd 33:7 Now Moses used to take a tent and pitch it outside the camp some distance away, calling it the “tent of meeting.” Anyone inquiring of the Lord would go to the tent of meeting outside the camp.
Hbr 13:11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp.
Hbr 13:12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.
Hbr 13:13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.
What is outside the camp? Pretty much it is wilderness, and even worse than that it is the place where the dead bodies of criminals were thrown and burnt, the place were garbage and refuse was thrown, the place where the people used to relieve themselves where the latrines of the city were placed. I’ve come to regard wilderness as a lifestyle of the cross whereby we bear His reproach, His disgrace, His shame. AND YET! This is where we get to meet with God, this is where Jesus is found.
The things we suffer are often God’s way of separating us from the world and from everything false that is done in His name. What the devil means for evil, God means for good. For example, i believe that Israel’s increasing isolation by the rest of the world, is actually God’s way of separating her from the world and calling her back to Himself again! He is once again choosing her. It looks devastating from one point of view, but is actually a holy and necessary thing from heaven’s viewpoint.
A thought about menopause: I’m going through it too and I understand only too well some of the effects that are being talked about above. What I have felt too is that it feels at times as though I am dying, that part of me is dying. And it is – my ability to reproduce after the flesh is literally dying. Woman was created as a living parable of the bride of Christ – the things in creation often serve as living parables, living testimonies of spiritual truths. His bride needs to die to her flesh, die to her ability to reproduce after the flesh through fleshly works, in order to become a suitable spiritual helpmate of the Lord. The way for the bride is through suffering as scripture talks about in many places. The encouragement is that there is life after ‘death’, there will be life after menopause, and the things we are going through now as we ‘die’ we can offer to Him as a sacrifice – our flesh on the altar – and even if we ‘do’ nothing else for Him the rest of our lives, we can still make that offering and pray to Him, knowing we are part of His bigger picture, of creation speaking out the things and the truths of God.
Another thing about wilderness, in addition to that being a part of any true believer’s life ever since the church began – is the fact of when we are living in history – that particularly at the end of this age those who belong to Him are being called to “come out of her”. There is only one place to go and that is to the wilderness where we are promised rivers in the desert and streams in the wasteland, but nowhere else for this time. He will care for us there, He will meet with us there. Isaiah 43 and elsewhere in Isaiah talks about this desert place.
I don’t know if I can explain this well, or if it’s quite correct the way I’m saying it, I’ll just put it out there and trust to the graciousness of my brothers and sisters here :) – but in addition to the Promised Land for us as individuals that has been there all along, I believe there is the Promised land that is also for His entire Body at the end of the age when He comes in power and glory, His bride. So there’s a sense that even those who may have already entered the rest of God as an individual, also need to be in this wilderness at this time in history to enter the Promised Land together with the Body. Moses is an example in that he had already been through his 40 years in the wilderness, and yet he entered the same wilderness again but this time to help the children of Israel navigate this very same wilderness as a body to help them find their way to the Promised Land, as a body.
Andrew J. Horton wrote:
“He told me clearly then and in the days that followed that everything He’d told me previously would surely come to pass and I have great confidence that it will because I let it go and He has given it back to me.”
That’s encouraging Andrew. Thanks for sharing that. What the Lord started in you, He will finish…….He has to, because He brings ALL things to completion. He will make it a “perfect” work, nothing missing.That’s one of the main reasons for the wilderness, so that we realise that it is HIS work that was begun in us, and not our own.
“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;” (Phillipians 1:6)
I think a lot of times, many times, we read over these familiar scriptures and don’t realise that everything written from the inspiration of the Spirit in the word, SHALL come to pass.
God cannot lie. Even though in the waiting, it seems like an eternity. But it is us who has doubt at times. God has no doubt in His own abilities. God is able to bring it all to pass in His timing……which is, of course, perfect.
And then we will realise why, after having beat our heads against the wall numerous times, that it was indeed, ALL worth it. Because it is His plan after all……and for some mysterious reason,He chose US……as PART of His plan and purpose, formed from the foundations of the world.
Andrew, you are right regarding the Christian misunderstandings of “wilderness.” A couple thoughts I think may help:
- the literal translation of the Hebrew word “midbar” means “land which yields little.” This in itself implies total dependancy on Him, just to meet one’s basic survival needs.
- I think too the “wilderness” journey, particularly in its length of years, was important in helping the fledgling Israelite nation understand they needed more than just deliverance from their oppressors (the Egyptians); they needed deliverance from themselves as well. One can only imagnine the iniquity they incurred through the many years of being at the mercy of their task masters. The inner wounding – which is how I understand iniquity to meann – required much more in the way of deliverance, and was far more complicated than God’s action in dashing a pursuing army. The Christian Church would do well to reckon seriously with the issue of iniquity (for which Jesus himself was bruised – hence the inner wounding) – and may need to embrace the Hebrew concept of midbar as a means to get there. Thanks for your thoughts. As always, you are on to something important as you do your part in regathering the true Church of Jesus Christ.
Andrew J Horton wrote:
I was also wondering “Gary Simpson” if by any chance the Lord led you to read Rees Howells Intercessor by Norman Grubb during your 2-3 years “wilderness” experience?
I was also wondering whether you believe that the Lord has “perfected you in love” “Gary Simpson” and if you do, whether you believe that He did this before He brought you into “the promised land”?
Comment:
1- I have not yet read Rees Howells Intercessor, although I have located a copy for purchase
2- Hebrews 10:13 says,
13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Good response “Gary Simpson” it appears that we are of one mind on this… :-)
Wayne wrote:
This is the tactic being repeated over and over again everytime any body questions the absolutely authority of the Word of God as the sole basis of our faith and the means for assessing spiritual activity of any kind.
It is absolutely imperative that any “leading” we believe to be from the HOLY SPIRIT be assessed in terms of its conformity to the WORD of GOD (The Bible),
Hold fast to that which is good (consistent with the Scriptures)
REJECT ALL that is bad false or contrary to the revealed Word of God. This is the warning of the BIBLE and every true representative of the one true God.
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Wayne I have noticed that you place a great emphasis on the “written” Word and I absolutely agree that our actions should never contradict what the Bible teaches.
However, when it comes to being led by God my question would be how this actually worked for the apostles Paul and Peter…
When we look at Paul we realize that he was a scholar, “a Hebrew of Hebrews”, as he called himself. He was highly educated in the old Scriptures and also in the law. As a scholar and a man of the law he persecuted Christians until God finally opened his eyes by blinding him.
Then there is Peter, a simple fisherman without any formal education. Over 3000 people accepted Christ after Peter preached a likely very basic sermon using words that were obviously spiritually super-charged.
Thinking also of the biblical last days description when the children will prophesy, could we assume that they would not be very familiar with the Bible and just simply led by the Holy Spirit?
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
I believe another reason for the desert for God’s chosen people, is to get rid of the “pre-conceived” and limited notions that we have about how God works, moves and does things. God is in the business of breaking each and every stereotype/idol/idea/conception/imagination…ANYTHING that man puts “before” Him, “thinking they know and can predict how God is going to ‘move’.
God is a GREAT dispeller of “myths”….and I think He takes great enjoyment in blowing people’s pre-conceived notions that they have about Him, and about how He does things.
It makes Him very angry when people try to quench or limit Him in any capacity by what they “think”. He hates when people try to muzzle His vessels, because if it’s for His body, it is for their own good, yet his people are BITEING THE HAND THAT FEEDS THEM!
That is why He has to clear His threshing floor and THRESH….not just do a little light house work with his church. No, when He says “thresh” he MEANS thresh!
One of the huge transitions in our walk with God is learning to leave behind “being led by the book”, and begin being “led by the Spirit”.
Doing what the book says, is the Old Covenant. This is how the Jewish nation operated, and how we operated before Christ.
Exodus 24:7 – 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the LORD has said; we will obey.”
This was the only way that the nation of Israel, or us (BC), could operate, since we did not have the Holy Spirit to lead us, and He would not come to indwell God’s people until after Jesus’ resurrection, at pentecost.
With the resurrection of Jesus, and the coming of the Holy Spirit, also came a new covenant of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:6 says:
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The life that the Spirit gives, is the life of the Lord Jesus Himself, who lives in each believer by His Spirit.
In the Old Covenant, we had to read the written word of God, decide what it meant, and then try in our own power to do what it told us to do.
In the New Covenant, we have Jesus, the living word of God, imparting His wisdom, power and life to us. We don’t have to read, decide what it means, or try in our own power. He does it all, as we agree with Him, and are obedient to the leading of His Holy Spirit. Our obedience is no longer to the book, but is now to God’s Holy Spirit.
Many people today who consider themselves to be Christians, are still living in the Old Covenant, and although they say they have found their messiah (Jesus), they refuse to accept Him as such. They still hang on tightly to the scriptures as their source of leading, and steadfastly refuse to allow the living word of God to lead them by His Holy Spirit. In doing such, they have elevated the creation (written word) to a higher position than the Creator (living Word). Even though the Holy Spirit wrote the book (Bible) they are unwilling to trust the author to lead them. They fear that they will be mislead by Satan, because they have no confidence in the Holy Spirit to maintain control. They actually have more confidence in Satan to mislead them, than they have in God to steadfastly lead them. What a tragedy. They are allowing fear (from Satan) to rob them of the abundant Christian life (from God).
Romans 8:14 says:
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
You do not have to abandon the book to be led by the Spirit, but you cannot be led by the book and the Spirit. You are either led by the book and under the old covenant, or led by the Spirit and under the new covenant.
The Spirit has come, and He demands His rightful place. He is the one that will teach you all things (Jn 14:26), and will guide you into all truth (Jn 16:12). He will not take a back seat to the Bible.
Please do not misunderstand me. I am not attacking or downplaying the value and worth of the Bible.
Instead, what I am doing is lifting up our God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) to His rightful place, above all creation, which includes the Bible.
It will never be possible to walk in the Spirit and enjoy the abundant Christian life, until you release your death grip on the Bible to lead you, and by faith, trust the Holy Spirit of God to assume His rightful place.
Gary Simpson wrote:
Even though the Holy Spirit wrote the book (Bible) they are unwilling to trust the author to lead them. They fear that they will be mislead by Satan, because they have no confidence in the Holy Spirit to maintain control.
They actually have more confidence in Satan to mislead them, than they have in God to steadfastly lead them. What a tragedy.
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Perhaps it s easier to trust a book that one can study and physically hold in ones’ hand than to absolutely, without any reservation, trust the invisible Holy Spirit?
And yes, then there is also the fear of being misled by the invisible devil. Seems there is no bridge, not even the slightest one, between the Old and the New Covenant. It’s either… or….
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Thinking of the freedom under the New Covenant where we are led by His Spirit while walking by faith…
When Jesus died, over 2000 years ago for our sins it was as though He was saying,”I don’t care who will be born in 2000 years from now and what kind of sins they will commit. Today I’m going to die for all of the sins, once and for all.”
According to Scripture it appears that my sins don’t even matter in the first place…
Therefore as by the offence of one (Adam) judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation: even so by the righteousness of One (Jesus) the FREE GIFT came upon ALL men unto justification of life.(Rom. 5:18,19)
Where am I in this picture? Seems that I am not quite that important after all.
Walking by faith is His love really is the key!
All Glory to Him!
Mario
“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling
away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV)
In 1948 a movement was born that has become the foundation of the great apostasy that the Apostle
Paul warned us would come prior to the return of our Lord. Known as the New Order of the Latter Rain or
just the Latter Rain Movement its influence has steadily grown within the Pentecostal and Charismatic
Churches since 1948. Today, through the influence of various “revivals” its leaven is spreading even further
into the Evangelical world.
An apostasy or “falling away” is essentially a rebellion of God’s people against His Word. It would
be within the Latter Rain “revival” which broke out in North Battleford, Saskatchewan, in 1948 that the last
great rebellion against the word of God would be birthed. It is my belief that this movement has ushered in
the very apostasy that the Apostle Paul warned would come.
Rebelling against the New Testament picture of the Church in the last days as a despised remnant of
the faithful holding on until the rapture, they began to develop a heretical doctrine of a triumphant Church –
conquering the world and bringing in the kingdom of Christ. The first time the Church adopted such a
theology it resulted in the development of Roman Catholicism and ushered in the Dark Ages. This time the
result will be much the same but of a much shorter duration. It will produce the one-world ecumenical
church, “The Great Harlot” that will triumph for a short time under Anti-Christ – “Drunken with the blood of
the saints and martyrs of Jesus.”
There is NO other way to “test the spirits” than to be totally reliant on the revealed “Word of God.”
Why should we trust the “leadings” of self appointed “anointed ones” when God has given as His Word as the final arbiter of Truth.
When we do not know the source of “spiritual wisdom” or activity we may rightly consider it to be OCCULTIC in nature and anything which does NOT conform to the revealed Word of God MUST be placed in this category.
There are many spiritual wackos getting around claiming to speak for God. The only bona fide credentials of a genuine spokesperson for God MUST be conformity to the revealed Word of God.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Which is sovereign? THE WRITTEN WORD OR THE LIVING WORD?
I have asked this question before….. and no one has answered the question yet.
I totally agree that God does not contradict His written word, AS INTERPRETED CORRECTLY BY HIM., not man. Man is finite; Man’s mind is corrupt and needs to be exchanged for the mind of Christ; Man MUST BELIEVE AND DEPEND TOTALLY UPON GOD…….THAT IS FAITH.
Do you believe God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son? Couldn’t God ask the same thing of us? Or would you NOT BELIEVE IT IS GOD? Why wouldn’t you believe it is God telling you this?
Do you believe God asked Joshua to walk around Jericho, without battle, in the face of an armed military force?
Do you believe that God asked the prophet Hosea to marry a harlot?
Do you believe that God asked the prophet Isaiah to walk around literally naked for 3 years? Couldn’t God ask the same thing of us?
These are strange things to people…but they were God’s instructions.
We are not able to judge what is of God and what is of man. Isn’t that what God says? ONLY GOD KNOWS THE HEART OF MAN; THE PLANS OF MAN; AND THE PLANS OF GOD.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are just that…..they are POSSESSED/OWNED by the Holy Spirit, they are not given away for people to use as a spiritual tool.
The “gift” becomes a gift to the person who is the recepient of its benefit, NOT to the vessel/person the Holy Spirit CHOSE TO USE TO MANIFEST HIMSELF THROUGH.
Discernment belongs to the Holy Spirit Himself….not to us.
When we need discernment…which is always…WE ASK GOD “IS THIS OF YOU?” “IS THIS YOUR TRUTH?”
“WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?” “WHAT’S GOING ON?”
Why do you think God lives within us? To dialogue intimately with us……to transform us….to empower us….to influence us….etc. etc.
Why do you think God wants us to hear His voice?
“My sheep hear my voice; they know Me; and they follow Me”
It’s pretty simple…..Hear His voice, Know Him, and follow the LIVING WORD OF GOD.
Who knows best how to interpret and apply (FULFILL) THE LAW (WRITTEN SCRIPTURES)?
GOD OR MANKIND?
Wayne wrote:
1- There is NO other way to “test the spirits” than to be totally reliant on the revealed “Word of God.”
Comment #1
A. The written word of God (Bible) tells us how to “test the spirits”, but you don’t need a Bible to test them.
1JN 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
B. Another way to test the spirits is given in Acts 17:11, where we are encouraged to be Bereans, and examine the scriptures to see if what we hear is in agreement with what the Bible says.
C. Another way to test the spirits involves my spirits reaction. Since the Holy Spirit and my spirit are joined and in absolute agreement, my spirit’s reaction to another spirit will either be war (if it is of Satan) or peace (if it is of God). This same principle is given in Gal 5:16-18 describing the conflict between my spirit and my flesh.
D. Another way, similar to the above method, is having the Holy Spirit identify and warn you of a demonic situation that you are not prepared to deal with. I call this one divine protection.
E. Summary: Instead of being totally reliant on the written word of God in dealing with spirits, we must be totally reliant upon God Himself. He is the one that indwells us, knows all, and has the wisdom and power to deal with all spirits, both His, and Satan’s. When the Holy Spirit leads you, He never makes a mistake, always knows what to do, and is always victorious over Satan. Just trust Him.
HappyTrails said:
Which is sovereign? THE WRITTEN WORD OR THE LIVING WORD?
Comment:
I will choose the Living Word, EVERY TIME!
This is getting good… :-)
Gary Simpson wrote, Doing what the book says, is the Old Covenant. This is how the Jewish nation operated, and how we operated before Christ.
Exodus 24:7 – 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the LORD has said; we will obey.”
This was the only way that the nation of Israel, or us (BC), could operate, since we did not have the Holy Spirit to lead us, and He would not come to indwell God’s people until after Jesus’ resurrection, at pentecost.
With the resurrection of Jesus, and the coming of the Holy Spirit, also came a new covenant of the Spirit.”
The old covenant was about blood sacrifices that had to be made to cover the people’s sins. The New Covenant is about the washing away of sins through the blood of Jesus Christ.
Gary, you quoted 2 Corinthians 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” but you failed to mention that Paul was using this as evidence to the Corinthians of his competence to the preaching of the gospel which is the forgiveness of sins by Jesus’ blood – the NEW covenant. When reading the scriptures we must read them in context.
Gary, you also state, “In the New Covenant, we have Jesus, the living word of God, imparting His wisdom, power and life to us. We don’t have to read, decide what it means, or try in our own power. He does it all, as we agree with Him, and are obedient to the leading of His Holy Spirit. Our obedience is no longer to the book, but is now to God’s Holy Spirit.”
However Jesus states in Matthew 5:17-19
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Jesus says himself that he has not come to abolish the Law! Not only that but how are we to know what Jesus has said if not for the Word of God, the Bible. The Holy Spirit was given to us to convict us of sin (Jn16:7-8), to give us power to live a Christian life (Acts 1:8), He is a counselor and guide (Jn14:26), He brings truth(Jn14:17), He equips us for service (Lk4:18), assists in our prayer life (Rom 8:26), changes us into the likeness of Christ (2 Cor 3:18) and makes Jesus real to us(Jn 16:14).
In my study of the Bible I have never come across the idea of not reading the word and listening only to the Holy Spirit. Both Paul and Peter used the scripture (from the “Old Covenant”) in their letters to the churches. As far as I’m concerned the Bible is black and white, you don’t have to “decide what it means” you just have to read it and the Holy Spirit will help you understand it.
And as to the question, “Which is sovereign? THE WRITTEN WORD OR THE LIVING WORD?”
The written word IS the Living Word.
The Holy Spirit will NEVER contradict the written Word of God which is NOT a difficult book for those humbly submitted to HIS will.
Gary referred to this scripture 1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
Kenneth Copeland and wife Gloria are considered to be two of the more intellectual leaders of the Word of Faith heresy which is home to many false prophets.
Matthew 24:24-25 (New International Version)
24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
Kenneth Copeland is known for his deification of man doctrine. According to Copeland, the Holy Spirit personally told him:
“A born again man (Jesus) defeated Satan. You are the very copy of that man.” Copeland then asked the Holy Spirit. “Well now, you don’t mean that I could have done the same thing?” Replied the Holy Spirit, Oh yeah, if you had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did. ‘Cause you’re a born again man too.”
A very simple understanding of the very verse you refer to would have prevented this man from this self indulgent heresy which gfails to pass this most basic biblical test.
Many people have been deceived by this man into following this false spirit simply because they believe that some spirit they are following is superior to the Word of God which is consistently confirmed by the Spirit of God.
There is NEVER any distinction between the revealed Word of God and the Living Word of God and the Holy Spirit of God other than the attempt at delusion which Satan and his emissaries will endeavour to introduce into the Church in a desperate attempt to lead them away from the eternal safety and security provided for those who will humbly submit to his revealed Will. His revealed will is and always will be available to us in HIS Word the Bible.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Romans 15:4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
Any foundation other than that provided by Scripture is sinking sand and MUST be rejected by those who will remain faithful to HIM until the very end. Only those who remain faithful to HIS Word until the very end will be saved.
“A comprehensive expose of Kenneth Copeland, his “ministry,” theology and doctrine, is contained in Kenneth Copeland Unmasked by B Michael Bigg a former Word of Faith devotee.
EXCELLENT comment Amanda.
May God richly bless you as you HONOUR HIS Word.
Hi “Amanda”, IMHO I sincerely believe that you are misunderstanding what “Gary Simpson” has posted in his last few posts above.
I’ve been keeping a close eye on what “Gary Simpson” has been posting since I first joined this website around four months ago and again IMHO I believe that to the very best of His ability and inaccordance with the revelation which the Holy Spirit has given him to this point in time “Gary Simpson” has been honouring the scriptures and has been in submission to the scriptures.
If you were to check back through some of the previous threads you would see that “Gary Simpson” has been very passionate to keep discussions in line with what he understands to be the truth from scripture and again IMHO his understanding on most of the issues discussed has been fairly accurate. No one’s perfect but the Lord.
What “Gary Simpson” has been sharing in his last few posts on this thread is regarding the fact that Jesus of Nazareth, our Saviour, our Lord, our Redeemer, Our Passover, the Son of God, the Son of David, the Son of Man, is the Word and is God, that He is the demonstration of the Nature and Character of God the Father and that the Holy Spirit has been given to us to lead us into all truth, i.e. to focus us on the person of Jesus Christ. All scripture has been given to us to focus us on the person of Jesus Christ who is the Word of God.
We are to worship God, the Godhead, the Father, the Son (the Word) and the Holy Spirit and we are to have no other gods before Him. The scriptures are not the Godhead. The scriptures did not create the world. The scriptures did not breath on me and create light out of darkness in my heart, the scriptures did not regenerate me, the scriptures are the Sword of the Spirit it is the Godhead who chose me, the Godhead, who caused me to be born again into a new and living way, it is the Godhead who sanctify me – you shall know The Truth and The Truth shall set you free; Before Abraham was I AM; I AM The Way, The Truth and The Life no one comes to the Father but by Me; if the Son shall set you free you shall be free indeed; sanctify them through The Truth, your word is truth and for their sakes I sanctify Myself that they also may be sanctified in truth – it is the Godhead who will glorify me and in heaven it is the Godhead whom I will worship for eternity.
I can tell you “Amanda” from personal experience that I have heard the Lord speaking directly to me. I’ve shared a number of testimonies of this on this website. My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me but a stranger they simply will not follow because they know My Voice. I have known beyond a shadow of a doubt when the Lord has been speaking to me – there are other voices who try to speak also and through practice and recognising that there is no peace, or there is compulsion, or fear or a disagreement with scripture in their voices I have rejected their voices as being of the flesh or of the devil.
When God speaks to me I am changed. I would be lying if I said otherwise. I have been delivered from great bondage from a simple word spoken directly into my new heart by God, whether it be Jesus, the Father or the Holy Spirit, I have been changed and I’m going to be honest with you here, I’ve read the scriptures from cover to cover 5 or 6 times, I’ve memorized, in my youth, chapters and chapters of scripture and meditated on them day and night, I’ve studied the scriptures, I love the scriptures, but nothing, no amount of hearing, reading, studying, memorizing or meditating on scripture (my Grandfather was appointed by Dawson Trotman to pioneer the Navigators in New Zealand) has ever set me free like when the Lord has spoken directly to me and I hear His voice.
I can tell you without a shadow of a lie that I have been reduced to a shaking, sobbing, awestruck, shocked, amazed, reduced to speechlessness, without physical strength wreck at times when Almighty God has spoken to me.
At other times when He’s spoken to me it has been just a whisper and great peace or great joy or a great smile has come across my face.
At all times when He’s spoken to me whether it be rebuke or encouragement it’s never condemning and it’s always with His peace. God loves us, we are His children – those who are His – and He wants us to have a personal relationship with Him. His perfect love casts out fear. We respect Him, we are in awe of Him, we tremble before Him but we are not afraid of Him because He is our Abba Father. We know that our sins are forgiven and that we are accepted in the Beloved. We know that our lives are on the altar and that He is transforming us into His likeness. We rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
The Holy Spirit has been very specific with me on a number of issues and I know even though there is not a specific word about this in scripture that if I disobey the Holy Spirit then I am sinning against God because “anything that is not done in faith is sin”.
Once we get to know God personally we see that He is completely trustworthy and that everything He tells us to do is for our own good so that we can get to know Him better. He makes us holy so that He can have a closer relationship with us as “two can’t walk together unless they are in agreement” and He wants, He longs, He yearns to walk intimately with each of His children individually.
“And this is Eternal Life that they may know You the Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent” – Jesus Christ
Correction:
“because they do not know the voice of strangers”
Amanda, I found your comments to be absolutely spot on and I commend you in your stand for righteousness.
Andrew, your comments are impossible to reconcile with the anti scriptural sentiments and comments that people such as Gary Simpson have been so enthusiastic about.
Many people have been deceived by Latter Rain exponents and other false prophets and teachers into thinking they are hearing from Jesus Christ when by biblical standards they are clearly being deceived by Satan.
I have repeatedly warned of the extreme folly of trusting our own judgement or the judgement of other people claiming to have “special anointings” or private visitations and special revelations as does the Bible. The Bible talks about the very elect being deceived in the Last Days if God did not shorten the days. Only those humbly and wholeheartedly submitted to the will of God as revealed in HIS Word the Bible will be have any chance of avoiding the deception of these days. I urge ALL bible believing christians to hold on, by the grace of God, to biblical christianity for as long as possible.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF DECEPTION IN THE CHURCH
Kenneth Copeland, who I have used as a classic example above was a student of Kenneth Hagin Senior who is considered the father of the heretical Word of Faith movement. Similar to claims which Gary Simpson and yourself appear to be making Andrew, Hagin outrageously claims that his (heretical) teachings came to him by divine revelation. Research by bible believing christian scholars has shown that he actually plagiarised Essex W Kenyon extensively in developing this multi-million dollar “christian” media empire for him and his cohorts.
Hagins’ son Ken Junior, boasting of at least eight (8) personal visits from Christ, as did his father teaches
“You are as much the incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth.”
This is the classic denial of Jesus Christ as God come in the flesh which is the most basic biblical test of the spirit of anti-christ.
Dabbling in the assortment of false teachings which men such as this have been responsible for exposing the church to has seen the church engaging in wholesale spiritual adultery. The video and other material on the invasion of evil spirits on the church being promulgated by Andrew Strom correctly identifies one of the symptoms of this spiritual adultery which I have previously referred to as a spiritual STD. Metaphorically the church has been acting like a spiritual whore and contracted spiritual syphilis.
God has sent delusion to test faithfulness to His Word and only those who remain faithful unitl the very end will avoid the JUDGEMENT that he will bring upon this apostate (whore) church.
The extent and scope of apostasy within the church today is clear evidence of this large scale delusion.
Your personal testimony MUST NEVER be allowed to supersede the Word of God.
TO AVOID DECEPTION in these dangerous days
ALWAYS REMEMBER:
JESUS TAUGHT FAITHFULNESS TO THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD AS THE MEANS OF SALVATION.
FAITHFULNESS TO THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD IS WHAT SEPARATES THE PEOPLE OF GOD FROM THE WORLD.
THE DESIRE AND ABILITY TO BE AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE WORD OF GOD IS MADE AVAILABLE TO US BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO HAS COME TO CONFIRM HIS WORD.
Hi “Wayne”,
Scripture tells us:
“For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.” (Rom 8:14-17 NASB)
May I please ask you some personal questions “Wayne”?
1. Are you personally being led by the Spirit of God “Wayne”?
2. Are you personally still living in fear “Wayne”?
3. Have you personally received the Spirit of Adoption as sons “Wayne”?
4. Do you personally cry out “Abba, Father” “Wayne”?
5. Has the Spirit Himself testified to your spirit that you are a child of God “Wayne”?
I admire your zeal for the scriptures “Wayne” but IMHO perceive that there is a more excellent way that the Holy Spirit is yet to reveal to you which will set you at great liberty in your relationship with Him which will make you even truer to the God of the scriptures and Who wrote the scriptures, than you desire to be now.
Wayne, I am only commenting on what you wrote because I believe you are aware (from my posts) that like you, I agree we MUST trust in the living word of scripture as guidance. This is a fundamental safeguard for us, and for us to depart from the scriptures is error.
This is how so many shipwreck, because, due to lack of discernment and judgment, they start to rely upon what they are “hearing” but don’t check what they are “hearing” against the revealed word of scripture which is sharp,active and living.
But just for clarification, I am asking, if you also do believe in the leading and gifts of the Holy Spirit (which I also say) will be confirmed by the word. Correct?
In other words, you believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit correct? I just wanted to know your position on this, as I believe others would as well, who have read your posts.
Some individuals who strongly advocate the importance of scripture as you or I do, do NOT believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I am not assuming that this is you, but just asking for clarification. Thanks.
Andrew wrote:I
“I admire your zeal for the scriptures “Wayne” but IMHO perceive that there is a more excellent way that the Holy Spirit is yet to reveal to you which will set you at great liberty in your relationship with Him which will make you even truer to the God of the scriptures and Who wrote the scriptures, than you desire to be now.”
Andrew, what “greater way” do you mean?
The Holy Spirit, who dwells inside of us, leads, guides and speaks to our spirits, if we are listening. And what we hear, WILL line up with the essence of what the scriptures are saying.
The Holy Spirit will never contradict the living word of God. Yes, the Holy Spirit MAY say some unusual thing to us that are not written about in scripture, say, having to do with modern society as opposed to biblical times. For instance, the Spirit often speaks to me through songs.But the Holy Spirit will NEVER contradict the word of scripture. These “two” are in AGREEMENT: the Spirit and the Word.
So I am curious as to what you mean by “greater way”?
“
Andrew J., is your “a greater way ” a departing from the scriptures? Is that what you are advocating?
Sorry, the phrase “more excellent way ” I was refering to.
I will say this: some of what Gary Simpson has written is correct, but it has not been rightly divided and in several places, what he has written does not apply to the topic of the discussion at hand.
As Wayne I believe has said, Gary Simpson has consistently taken scripture, while true, OUT OF CONTEXT- thus making it appear to say something that it is not saying. In other words, I believe Gary Simpson is wrongly applying the word in several instances.
With all respect “Heidi144″ if you read carefully what I posted above then you wouldn’t need to ask me that question… :-)
I include a partial quote from what I posted above below:
“When God speaks to me I am changed. I would be lying if I said otherwise. I have been delivered from great bondage from a simple word spoken directly into my new heart by God, whether it be Jesus, the Father or the Holy Spirit, I have been changed and I’m going to be honest with you here, I’ve read the scriptures from cover to cover 5 or 6 times, I’ve memorized, in my youth, chapters and chapters of scripture and meditated on them day and night, I’ve studied the scriptures, I love the scriptures, but nothing, no amount of hearing, reading, studying, memorizing or meditating on scripture (my Grandfather was appointed by Dawson Trotman to pioneer the Navigators in New Zealand) has ever set me free like when the Lord has spoken directly to me and I hear His voice.”
Please feel free to have another read of my full post above and also please feel free to ask me any further clarifying questions that you might have… :-)
Andrew, that is a wonderful testimony, but I felt for the rest of the readers as well as myself, that a clarification of what you meant by a “more excellent way” was necessary.
I take it that what you have written above is your explanation of what you meant by “a more excellent way”?
But as you have supported Gary Simpson’s statements, I wil say you are incorrect in your discernment of what he has written here because he is clearly in error.
I have extreme doubts about the spirit that you claim is coming to you privately with superbiblical revelation Andrew J Horton?
Your persistent resistance and objection to Biblical discipline indicates that you have an extremely limited understanding of Biblical or authentic Christianity.
In spite of your apparent lack of bible instruction, understandable in the present spiritual climate, do you personally know the Lord Jesus Christ as presented to us in the Bible or are you like the multitude of deceived christians today and following a spiritual being of your own creation.
Only the JESUS CHRIST Of the Bible is able to save us for eternity. I urge you to seek HIM out before it is TOO late.
Yes Heidi. I strongly believe in the continuation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit into the present day. I have never had a problem with the orderly and biblical functioning of the gifts and claim to have had significant spiritual experiences, similar to some of those being held up as the ultimate by many on these sites.
However my experiences occurred at an extremely immature stage of my christian walk. Having such an “ecstatic” salvation experience really only convinced me to get into the Word of God as deeply as possible and I am more convinced than ever before that this is absolutely imperative if we are to remain faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ and HIS Word until the very end.
I have been fortunate enough to have been able to consult with a number of very fine penetecostal leaders (i.e. Pastors and Bible College lecturers who have been able to assist me in my investigations into the underlying doctrinal errors which are surfacing within the pentecostal and charismatic churches. I am certain that you must be aware of much of this stuff yourself.
Shortly after I was married we were attending the pentecostal church my wife had been attending when the Pastor there insisted the congregation swear an oath of allegiance to follow him whatever he said or did for life. It was impossible for us as Bible believing christians to attend that church any longer.
I raised my family in another pentecostal church which we attended for over 30 years until the Pastor asserted that he did not “care about bible doctrine …..I only care about my anointing.”
Since then I have investigated the extent and scope of apostasy sweeping through the pentecostal and charismatic churches and have been absolutely sickened by what I have discovered. Hence my sense of urgency in trying to warn people to escape the occultic filth that has overtaken the “church.”
I am very definitely a classic pentecostal rather than a neo-pentecostal so all of this anti-biblical/unbiblical/superbiblical stuff is absolutely abhorrent to me.
However the extent of apostasy that I see around me has made it extremely difficult for me and many others as well to find a “pentecostal” church in which we are comfortable.
Most seem to have descended into neo-pentecostalism which refers to the extreme views of many so-called pentecostals and charismatics today. These people have spiritual entities delivering a plethora of false teachings to them on a grand scale similar to the examples of Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland that I have referred to above.
As I have posted on many occasions this is clearly part of the false church of the end times full of the blood of the martyrs and deceiving people into accepting the anti-christ. Anti-christs, of course are any thing that competes with the authentic or BIBLICAL Christ and is clearly being presented by people such as Andrew Horton, Gary Simpson and David Larsen on these sites. They, in fact, like so many others today, seem to be presenting themselves as alternatives christs and as such need to be avoided like all other false teachers and false prophets.
Hi “Heidi144″ I’ve re-posted my previous post to “Wayne” in full below for the purpose of this discussion:
“Hi “Wayne”,
Scripture tells us:
“For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.” (Rom 8:14-17 NASB)
May I please ask you some personal questions “Wayne”?
1. Are you personally being led by the Spirit of God “Wayne”?
2. Are you personally still living in fear “Wayne”?
3. Have you personally received the Spirit of Adoption as sons “Wayne”?
4. Do you personally cry out “Abba, Father” “Wayne”?
5. Has the Spirit Himself testified to your spirit that you are a child of God “Wayne”?
I admire your zeal for the scriptures “Wayne” but IMHO perceive that there is a more excellent way that the Holy Spirit is yet to reveal to you which will set you at great liberty in your relationship with Him which will make you even truer to the God of the scriptures and Who wrote the scriptures, than you desire to be now.”
What I was saying to “Wayne” was that the Holy Spirit is the one Who leads us into all truth. When the Holy Spirit tells us to read a certain passage of scripture we are greatly blessed and encouraged but it is the Holy Spirit Who is our Teacher.
When we just go to the scripture and read it, following some plan that we’ve made in our mind, or following someone’s elses plan that they’ve suggested to us, i.e. without being led by the Spirit as to how He wants us to read the scripture and what He wants to teach us through the scriptures then how are we going to learn anything? All truth is spiritually discerned and only the Holy Spirit can reveal the truth to the hearts of His children.
When the Lord speaks to us as we’re just doing our jobs, going for a run, having a shower, etc, if it is the Lord speaking to us it will never be incontradiction to the scriptures.
If Wayne isn’t aware that God will speak to us like I describe above and believes that the only way God will speak to him is by going to the scriptures and reading the scriptures and figuring out what he believes God is saying in the scriptures then truly there is a more excellent way as the scriptures which I posted from Romans 8 reveal.
With respect to my “sticking up” for the last few posts of “Gary Simpson” relating to life in the Spirit and saying that I’d sensed that on the whole the posts of “Gary Simpson” were fairly accurate, as you know on one of the other threads – can’t remember which one it was – “Gary Simpson” had asked some fairly “pointed” questions of me, which I answered and then some fairly “pointed” questions back to “Gary Simpson” which he didn’t answer.
When “Gary Simpson” made his first post in this thread, which I disagreed with, I took up my questioning with “Gary Simpson” again – as you’ll see above – and received an answer which showed me that “Gary Simpson” had laid down the issues which I previously disagreed with him on and which gave me confidence that he was now truly in a position where he would receive revelation from the Lord.
His next few posts confirmed my understanding and that is why I felt led to say what I said in my post to “Amanda” and also because I have truly perceived IMHO that “Gary Simpson” does honour the scriptures and when he says that he has entrusted himself into the palm of the Lord’s hand IMHO I believe him.
That doesn’t make him perfect or make everything he says correct – I’m not saying that – I’m just saying that I don’t believe that the spirit of what he was saying in that post / those posts was dishonouring to the scriptures.
TO AVOID DECEPTION in these dangerous days
ALWAYS REMEMBER:
JESUS TAUGHT FAITHFULNESS TO THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD AS THE MEANS OF SALVATION.
FAITHFULNESS TO THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD IS WHAT SEPARATES THE PEOPLE OF GOD FROM THE WORLD.
THE DESIRE AND ABILITY TO BE AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE WORD OF GOD IS MADE AVAILABLE TO US BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO HAS COME TO CONFIRM HIS WORD.
AS THE THIRD PERSON OF THE TRINITY GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL NEVER CONTRADICT WHAT GOD THE FATHER AND GOD THE SON HAVE REVEALED TO US IN THE BIBLE.
THE TRIUNE GOD IS CONSISTENT IN ALL OF HIS ATTRIBUTES
ONE ASPECT OF GOD IS NOT IN COMPETITION WITH ANY OTHER ASPECT NOR WILL ONE MEMBER OF THE TRINITY CONTRADICT THE OTHER MEMBERS IN ANY WAY.
THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO TEST ALL THINGS HOLD FAST TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE CLEAR INSTRUCTION OF SCRIPTURE
Jesus states in Matthew 5:17-19
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Jesus says himself that he has not come to abolish the Law! Not only that but how are we to know what Jesus has said if not for the Word of God, the Bible. The Holy Spirit was given to us to convict us of sin (Jn16:7-8), to give us power to live a Christian life (Acts 1:8), He is a counselor and guide (Jn14:26), He brings truth(Jn14:17), He equips us for service (Lk4:18), assists in our prayer life (Rom 8:26), changes us into the likeness of Christ (2 Cor 3:18) and makes Jesus real to us(Jn 16:14).
He has NOT come to bring superbiblical revelation to the super spiritual BUT he has come to warn us to avoid such people by remaining strongly committed to the Word of God as the sole basis for our faith and morals.
False religion is thriving everywhere.
There is only ONE way to be saved.
Inventing another false religion will NOT cut it on the Judgement day.
Hi “Wayne”, In all honesty before the Lord I have never asserted that I’ve had any “superbiblical revelation”. The scripture is the scripture and as I stated emphatically on “The Shack” thread it is complete.
The gifts of the Spirit are in operation today and the Lord does speak to His people, if you don’t believe me you should read about Smith Wigglesworth or George Muller or Rees Howells.
I am in no way shape or form setting myself up as some form of “alternative christ” as you assert.
I’m just a simple scripture believing saint who, to the best of my ability, is completely surrendered to the will of God for my life and wanting to glorify God in my life.
My two cents: One. I don’t think we are obligated or need to judge or pounce on every single word that is spoken by our brothers and sisters. It’s often hard to explain spiritual truths with our human faculties and words, sometimes it’s hard to nail down what we think. What we are to judge is the spirit, the over-all spirit of the person who is speaking, whether they are of a right spirit. If we belong to Him and our hearts are right before Him, we find that as we are following the Lord, things that are not of Him just don’t stick, they fall off us, it is He who keeps us. I do very much believe we need to be alert for human sayings that are in danger of becoming false doctrines however.
Two. The things we believe and are willing to believe – that is, those beliefs that do stick – they are closely linked to our walk and relationship with the Lord, not just what we “know” from scripture. It’s not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, it’s what comes out of him. And what comes out of him depends on what was already in there which determined what he did with what went in. Otherwise we would have to call God unjust. We can memorize the bible and discipline ourselves to obey every single command and exhortation in it, but still not be saved by it. Flesh cannot glory. That is self-righteousness, in itself a terrible deception, and we can see the fruit of self-righteousness all the time. There are Christian groups who pretty much do just that, yet they grieve and quench the Spirit all the time.
It is the Lord who saves us, we are kept by His power, not ours – it depends on He and His mercy and grace. Our part is to seek and to love and trust Him. He is even able to prepare a table for us in the midst of our enemies. The bible is a very, very useful tool, and I wouldn’t want to be without one, but we are not saved or kept by it alone, or else the Pharisees would have been saved. It’s Jesus, the real, living, resurrected person of Jesus, our Shepherd who keeps us. My thanks and praise goes to Him alone, not one little iota of credit belongs to me or any one of us, for how diligently we study the scriptures or how well we understand or follow them – but for some strange reason He has chosen us, we are His, amen. And all we can do is be grateful and love Him in return.
When someone constantly uses the phrase “IMHO”, which means “In my humble opinion”, it’s a clear red flag that they are not humble.
A humble person has no need to trumpet their “humility.” Most likely they are not even aware of their humility or consider themselves humble.
Stan
Amen “watchful”… :-)
IMHO, I thought IMHO meant “In My Honest Opinion”… either way it just signifies an opinion as opposed to the Word of God Carved in Stone, it’s not a self-compliment, IMHO. :)
Anyhow to add to my last post:
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
The same is true today, we can serve in the oldness of the letter and think we are pleasing God, or we can serve in the new way of the Spirit as we really ought.
watchful wrote “IMHO, I thought IMHO meant “In My Honest Opinion”… either way it just signifies an opinion as opposed to the Word of God Carved in Stone, it’s not a self-compliment, IMHO. :)”
Although I have never heard that definition for IMHO before, I wouldn’t like that any better. This is a christian BB so why would I have any other expectation than that people were being honest. I’d have to wonder why the constant reminder that it was an honest opinion. Is that to differentiate from the dishonest ones that are also coming forth? The Word of God carved in stone would be the law wouldn’t it, which is actually what this discussion has gone to.
For full context, read Romans 7 & 8 – which I shall not quote in its entirety for reasons of space.
There seems to be a great deal of confusion on the part of some people here about ‘the law’ and ‘the spirit’ – and there really shouldn’t be.
The law was NOT done away with. It was fulfilled. All that the law was instituted for remains in full force for us, just the same as it was for the OT people of God. Jesus made that clear when He said “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:17-20)
The LAW, in this discourse, refers to the law as presented to Israel by Moses. By the time Jesus arrived, the ‘teachers of the law’ had added myriad other rabbinical requirements to ‘the law’ that Moses never wrote. These were never part of the ‘law,’ they were man-made commandments that had been added to the law. They were based on several respected rabbis’ interpretation of the law – their ‘revelation’ if you like.
Even so, there WERE those in the OT that attained ‘righteousness’ under the law- Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Daniel to name a few prominent ones – we are told that it was NOT the law, but faith that ‘was accounted to them for righteousness.
Paul, who was trained by one of the greatest scholars of the time in Mosaic and Rabbinical law, went to great pains to try to explain the dichotomy between the ‘law’ and the ‘spirit.’ Peter remarks about Paul’s writings “in which are some things hard to be understood.”
First of all, we must understand that there IS NO CONFLICT BETWEEN THE LAW AND THE SPIRIT. During the writing of the New Testament, their ‘Scriptures’ WERE the OLD TESTAMENT delivered from God by the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16).
If you read the words of Paul in context, his meaning becomes crystal clear.
Simply put, no mortal man can fulfill the law in his own strength and in his own flesh. It is clear through the reading of the OT that the ‘law’ as set down by Moses was not sufficient in and of itself to keep Israel out of sin and in the will of God. The law, by it’s existence, serves to underscore the fact that all mankind is utterly depraved in their natural state and without divine intervention, we are without hope or recourse. “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
Paul open Romans 7 with this statement: “Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?” As long as you live under the law, it has force and dominion over you.
But, Paul also says “Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 6:8-11)
Therefore, brethren, we see the simple truth that Paul is giving us: That we, as men are dead under the law, because we, as men, CANNOT fulfill the requirements of the law. The law schools us and teaches us the futility of living by the law, because we will FAIL every single time. We cry out with Paul – “O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?”
Fortunately we can also cry out “I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!” once we understand that “So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.”
“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.” Note that there is NO mention of the law in this statement. The contrast is between walking in the ‘flesh’ and walking in the ‘spirit.’
Now the next statement says “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
Note that the ‘righteous requirement of the law’ is NOT set aside. It is fulfilled, just as Jesus Himself said. It is NOT the law that is lacking, it is the flesh. Jesus, however, while being in the ‘likeness of sinful flesh’ (AKA human) but sinless, DID fulfil the righteous requirements of the law.
Q: How is it that we become capable of fulfilling the righteous requirement of the Law in the same manner as Jesus did?
A: When you are truly ‘saved’ you receive the ‘earnest’ of the Holy Spirit. As believers, then we walk by the Holy Spirit, not by the flesh. “For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.”
“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.”
“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
And we are once again around to this statement: “Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?”
But if we are dead (in Christ), we have passed out of bondage to the penalty that we incurred by not being able to fulfill the law (condemnation) and are now able to live (in Christ) in and by the Holy Spirit and so fulfill the law.So, in the light of what Paul says here, we now can look at his words in 2 Corinthians 3:5-9:
“Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.”
Now, is Paul saying, as some contend, that the ‘law’ is dead and we should discard it and rely only on the ‘spirit’? GOD FORBID! Paul says that which was ‘written and engraved on stones, was glorious!’ The law ‘kills’ our pride, our self-sufficiency, our notion that we can somehow be righteous on our own. The ‘law’ is not dead! It is fulfilled! The FLESH is dead, with it’s inability to live in righteousness!
What Paul is saying is that he is not a ‘minister’ of a law that condemns to death those who cannot follow it (which none can) but a minister of the grace of God who makes it possible, by the Holy Spirit for us fulfill the law, escape it’s condemnation and live forever!
So, brethren, we do not escape or evade the law. Through Jesus Christ, we also fulfill it. The law is still in force.
I would once more remind those who want to toss out the Old Testament Scriptures that when the New Testament was not canonized in the times they talk about. When Paul wrote: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work,” he was talking about the written Old Testament!
So, in closing, I give you the testimony of the Scriptures: Isaiah 8:16-20
“Bind up the testimony, Seal the law among my disciples. And I will wait on the Lord, Who hides His face from the house of Jacob; And I will hope in Him. Here am I and the children whom the Lord has given me! We are for signs and wonders in Israel From the Lord of hosts, Who dwells in Mount Zion. And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?
To the law and to the testimony!
If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”
Amen “Seraphah” Jesus Himself within us fulfils “the righteous requirements of the law” as we live in the Spirit and not in the flesh… It is all about our flesh (sinful nature) which is already positionally dead being made practically dead as the Holy Spirit establishes His truth in our new heart, in our innermost being as David says in Psalm 51.
This is the joy and liberty in the Holy Spirit which I speak of, freedom from the desire to commit sin, freedom to live knowing that our new self and the Holy Spirit through our new self is Who is living.
Freedom from the presence of sin in our hearts, the more of the sinful nature which the Holy Spirit removes by the establishment of the knowledge of the truth – a deep understanding of the truth – in our innermost beings (our new selves) it has been my experience that my old self in that area has just “fallen off” and is no longer there.
The reason I get so excited when God delivers me from something and want to tell the whole world is that I have genuinely been delivered by the Lord and in that area I can now say with Jesus, “I delight to do Your will O my God, Your law is within my heart”.
And yet recently the Lord has taken me further and showed me that I should not be focused on what remains of my sinful nature but that I should be focused on Him alone. I should be focused on the Father and on Jesus (John 17:3). As I focus on them I will become like them and they will live more fully in me as John 14 tells us:
“Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
“All this I have spoken while still with you.
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.” (John 14:23-27 NIV)
Or as Paul says in 2 Cor:
“And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” (2 Cor 3:18 NIV)
Psalm 16 and Acts 2 tell us that Jesus was continually beholding the Lord in His presence – this is why He always did the things which pleased the Father, as we focus on Jesus and the Father we become like them through the power of the Holy Spirit and again only the Holy Spirit can establish in us the ability to have this focus instead of our focus being on ourselves or our “performance”.
Like Peter when he stepped out of the boat and walked towards Jesus he was fine as long as his gaze was fixed on Jesus when he looked around he started to sink.
Heb 12:1 tells us “let us fix our eyes on Jesus”… This is what the Lord’s been showing me recently.
Interesting post, Andrew J. Horton.
What the Lord showed me was this -
“But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 3:7-14)
Like Paul, I do not pretend that I have attained anything like perfection. The minute I begin to think I have arrived, I discover that I am still fallible. It is dangerous to my mind to forget that I can and do screw up royally – because then I am in danger of being like those who chase the manifestations. I begin to think that every random thought that goes through my brain must be from God – since I am so anointed and walking so perfectly in the spirit, you understand.
Which brings me to: Philippians 3:15-16
“Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.”
In other words, if you have attained any of the TRUTH, walk in it. And if we are on the same page in TRUTH we are in unity of the spirit and will agree, if we are indeed God’s. Furthermore, if anyone who is God’s is NOT in agreement, they will be eventually, as God will reveal the TRUTH to them.
Philippians 3:17-19 “Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.”
We need to note those who walk in spirit and in TRUTH – and also those who do not. Those who do not are not that hard to spot – they have their mind on earthly things like satisfying their carnal appetites for wealth, recognition, exaltation of themselves, etc (whose god is their belly) and who take great pride in testifying to their supposed knowledge and revelation (whose glory is in their shame).
Philippians 3:20-21 “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.”
And one of these days I’ll get to go home to heaven and get a body that is immortal and sinless – like the one my eldest brother, the first fruits, has. And won’t that be glorious!!!!
Amen, and praise the Lord for His wonderful grace which covers us and gives us the glorious liberty to seek Him and grow and learn as His children without condemnation, until such time as we are perfected!
This ‘duality’ of law and spirit seems to be a very hard concept for the gentile mind to grasp – as such we really do need our minds transforming in more ways than one! Hallelujah, He can do it though! It really is a strange phenomenon – I’m still struggling, but closer to getting it than I was not long ago.
What a good word Andrew I was encouraged. I felt the greatest change start coming over my life back in 1998 after going through a desert like experience that you talked about. Interesting thing a man goes into this desert and a different man comes out. A prideful, religious, carnal Christian man goes into this desert and a spiritual righteous man comes out. I don’t know who, how, and when he picks men to go to this kind of desert because I did not volunteer to go but some how I was there all alone desperately looking for him and guidance on how to get out of there. I don’t think we can’t go to this kind of spiritual desert on our own. I believe the spirit will lead us there and keep us there as long as he feels we need to be there till he completes a work in us that only he can do with the help of no man. How long we stay in this desert will depend on him as we learn to have and put all our trust in him. I lost my health, wealth, and self in this desert. This desert changed me for ever by teaching me to deny and die to self and learn to trust in him in all things through his word and spirit. I thought I was model A Christian before going through this desert. He showed me I was prideful, carnal and a stench before him compared to his righteousness. After he showed me who I really was as a prideful, religious and carnal believer I was broken and had to repent, repent, repent and amen him seems like forever. I fell in love with him again and asked him to take me home before ever letting me go back and be that awful prideful carnal Christian I used to be.
What came from this desert like experience was a drawing closer to him that was experienced because of the cleanness of vessel I felt, and the presence, peace and power I felt from his spirit. I have never felt a greater peace on this earth than to be with the prince of peace in that prayer that seemed to come when I was in this great despair. I seemed to of lost many things in the desert that I valued and though he valued but found he considered it dung. I also found and picked up many things I would have never found in my way of trying to live a Christian life. I saw like I never saw before and understood like I never understood before. The life Jesus talked about could now be lived and experience in real life. Things that Jesus did were now following me because I was following him in right relationship. I think he said this would happen?
All this and much more came from the desert experience. The spirit lead Jesus there, Moses hid there and some rejects like me have to be force there. It does not matter only he knows what we need. Oh how he loves me and you! Thanks for letting me post this.
Wayne wrote:
” Yes Heidi. I strongly believe in the continuation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit into the present day. I have never had a problem with the orderly and biblical functioning of the gifts and claim to have had significant spiritual experiences, similar to some of those being held up as the ultimate by many on these sites. ”
Thanks Wayne! I concur with you as well. I thought as much, but wanted to let you speak for yourself, as I felt a few were misinterpreting why you were writing from the standpoint that you did.
Seraphah wrote:
“The law was NOT done away with. It was fulfilled. All that the law was instituted for remains in full force for us, just the same as it was for the OT people of God. Jesus made that clear when He said “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”
Amen.
And:
“First of all, we must understand that there IS NO CONFLICT BETWEEN THE LAW AND THE SPIRIT. During the writing of the New Testament, their ‘Scriptures’ WERE the OLD TESTAMENT delivered from God by the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16).”
Amen to that as well. I would quote your whole post, as it is an excellent explanation, but due to limited “space” I’ll just reccommend that others re-read it for insight.
Praise God “Seraphah” I believe I agree completely with your post above which begins:
“Interesting post, Andrew J. Horton.
What the Lord showed me was this -
“But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ…”
Amen “watchful”…
Praise God for Unity in the Spirit… :-)
“Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.”
Amanda wrote:
“Jesus says himself that he has not come to abolish the Law! Not only that but how are we to know what Jesus has said if not for the Word of God, the Bible. The Holy Spirit was given to us to convict us of sin (Jn16:7-8), to give us power to live a Christian life (Acts 1:8), He is a counselor and guide (Jn14:26), He brings truth(Jn14:17), He equips us for service (Lk4:18), assists in our prayer life (Rom 8:26), changes us into the likeness of Christ (2 Cor 3:18) and makes Jesus real to us(Jn 16:14). ”
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING…..Read the rest of the scripture
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
JESUS FULFILLS THE LAW IN US…THAT IS ONE REASON HE IS DWELLING IN US. WE DO NOT FULFILL THE LAW BY OBEYING THE LETTER OF THE LAW.
Amanda, you then agree with the truth that Jesus fulfills the law in us by saying the Holy Spirit does it all!
By stating ” the written word IS the Living Word” , you are declaring the scriptures to be GOD HIMSELF.
No where in scripture has God asked us to worship the scriptures….on the contrary, God condemns those who worship the scriptures.
The sins of the Pharisees were FEAR; PRIDE; UNBELIEF. THAT IS WHY THEY PUT THEIR FAITH IN THE WRITTEN WORD INSTEAD OF THE LIVING WORD WHO CAME TO THEM IN BODILY FORM.
Jer 31:33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Amanda and Wayne…what does Jer 31:33 mean to you?
Memorizing scripture? GOD’S WRITTEN WORD SAYS “I” GOD WILL PUT MY LAW WITHIN YOU….REFER TO MY FIRST VERSE REVELATION 19:13 ……WHO IS LIVING OUR HEARTS? JESUS..THE LIVING WORD OF GOD
Jesus, THE WORD OF GOD, existed before the written word……He is God…He is sovereign over ALL CREATED THINGS.
By the way Wayne, Guess WHO “THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD” is?
What does this line of comments have to do with THE WILDERNESS?
Israel STAYED IN THE WILDERNESS BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF.
THEY CHOSE TO BELIEVE WHAT MAN TESTIFIED TO RATHER THAN THE LIVING GOD’S PERSONAL INSTRUCTIONS TO THEM.
The wilderness is a time for stripping away false teachings; false gods; idols; and unbelief. It is meant for purification…….IT IS THE POTTER’S KILN.
DON’T STAY THERE ANY LONGER THAN IS NECESSARY BY HANGING ONTO THE IMPURITIES.
SURRENDER AND LET GO.
Excellently Spoken Seraphah and Andrew J. Horton!
Amen.
Happy Trails wrote:
:”No where in scripture has God asked us to worship the scriptures….on the contrary, God condemns those who worship the scriptures.”
Amanda nor Wayne are NOT advocating that one should “worship” the scriptures.
Interesting post, Andrew J. Horton.
What the Lord showed me was this -
“But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 3:7-14)
Like Paul, I do not pretend that I have attained anything like perfection. The minute I begin to think I have arrived, I discover that I am still fallible. It is dangerous to my mind to forget that I can and do screw up royally – because then I am in danger of being like those who chase the manifestations. I begin to think that every random thought that goes through my brain must be from God – since I am so anointed and walking so perfectly in the spirit, you understand.
Which brings me to: Philippians 3:15-16
“Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.”
In other words, if you have attained any of the TRUTH, walk in it. And if we are on the same page in TRUTH we are in unity of the spirit and will agree, if we are indeed God’s. Furthermore, if anyone who is God’s is NOT in agreement, they will be eventually, as God will reveal the TRUTH to them.
Philippians 3:17-19 “Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.”
We need to note those who walk in spirit and in TRUTH – and also those who do not. Those who do not are not that hard to spot – they have their mind on earthly things like satisfying their carnal appetites for wealth, recognition, exaltation of themselves, etc (whose god is their belly) and who take great pride in testifying to their supposed knowledge and revelation (whose glory is in their shame).
Philippians 3:20-21 “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.”
And one of these days I’ll get to go home to heaven and get a body that is immortal and sinless – like the one my eldest brother, the first fruits, has. And won’t that be glorious!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>HappyTrails Jul 19th 2010
What does this line of comments have to do with THE WILDERNESS?<<<<<
Uh, since you started it with your post on Jul 16th 2010 beginning "I beg to differ with the words “type and shadow”and continued with your post above, why are you asking???
BTW – Wayne knows perfectly well who the Revealed Word is (and so do I) – but you, apparently, do not realize that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16) You cannot separate the Scripture out as though it is inferior or 'another word' just because it is written down. Jesus is the WORD – 'logos.' Yet Jesus Himself referred to the Scripture as 'logos' and said the Scripture cannot be broken. Jesus taught from the Scripture, applied the Scripture to himself – the WRITTEN scripture, specifically the Old Testament. We do not 'worship' the Scripture any more than Jesus did – but we do recognize (as Jesus did) that it is, indeed, the WORD of God.
In point of fact, the word 'spirit' is Greek 'pneuma' a derivative of 'pneo' which means to breathe or to blow. The word 'inspiration' in 2 Timothy 3:16 is 'theopneustos' – God-breathed. Now a question – who is the 'breath' of God? If the Holy Spirit 'breathed' all the Scripture how can you treat it any differently than you do Jesus, the WORD in the flesh?
On of the most interesting things I have been shown in this wilderness walk is how, without the Holy Spirit, people will invariably misunderstand and misinterpret the Scriptures. They either reject it all as false or ignorant drivel, or they try to follow it and understand it with their carnal mind and end up in major error – even to the point of starting cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormons.
On the other hand, some of the most intricate and deep truths of Scripture can be so utterly apparent with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Doctrines that have divided and befuddled so many – like the unity of the Godhead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), predestination and free will and the security of salvation – are suddenly simple when our own preconceived notions are out of the way.
The presence or absence of the Holy Spirit's leading in any situation can drastically alter reactions. Two people can read the exact same words and one will see acceptance while the other sees rebuke. One person will get angry and accuse, the other will be corrected and repent. One person will say "I'm glad I'm not like that" while another will say "Father, search out any false way in me."
The flip side of the coin of error are those who minimize the Scripture and concentrate on the 'spirit.' This is the place where the manifestation camp goes. They have their 'new revelation' by the 'spirit' and ignore or explain away any Scriptural rebuttal of their 'revelations'. They claim that they are superior to the rest of us, that they are more 'spiritual' and we should not question them, as they are the special 'anointed' ones who walk 'after the spirit' better than anyone else. One does have to wonder what 'spirit' they are walking after, however.
I believe that many were sent into the 'wilderness' not like OT Israel, but like NT John the Baptist. In the desert John was trained directly by God, untainted by the Pharisee, Scribes and the Priesthood. (Luke 1:80, Luke 3:2) His father was a righteous priest, so you may be sure that John was familiar with the Scriptures. And, as he was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb, he had no trouble getting the proper interpretation of those Scriptures and applying them correctly.
Unlike John, many, if not most of us HAVE been tainted by false teaching / doctrine of one kind or another. We have be in the wilderness unlearning those errors and relearning TRUTH – by the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures.
Now, I realize that God can and does teach and lead without benefit of written Scripture. That does not, however, negate the fact that the written WORD is still the WORD. As we are blessed enough, like the disciples and Paul, to have access to the written word, let us use Scripture as it was intended to be used – "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Sorry for the repeat of a previous post – I wrote them in the same document and copy / pasted the whole. OOPS!
Seraphah wrote:
“On of the most interesting things I have been shown in this wilderness walk is how, without the Holy Spirit, people will invariably misunderstand and misinterpret the Scriptures”
And
“On the other hand, some of the most intricate and deep truths of Scripture can be so utterly apparent with the guidance of the Holy Spirit”
.
And
“The presence or absence of the Holy Spirit’s leading in any situation can drastically alter reactions.”
I very much agree with these statements, and the rest of the post.
QUOTE:
“The flip side of the coin of error are those who minimize the Scripture and concentrate on the ‘spirit.’ This is the place where the manifestation camp goes. They have their ‘new revelation’ by the ‘spirit’ and ignore or explain away any Scriptural rebuttal of their ‘revelations’. They claim that they are superior to the rest of us, that they are more ‘spiritual’ and we should not question them, as they are the special ‘anointed’ ones who walk ‘after the spirit’ better than anyone else. One does have to wonder what ‘spirit’ they are walking after, however.”
There is a BALANCE from which the leading of the Spirit will lead us into ALL truth.
We need the WORD as much as we need the SPIRIT and vice versa.
And, very importantly, we need to rightly “divide” the word, as well as be led by the Spirit’s wisdom and not our own wisdom which, if we are not walking in the Spirit, we can easily be “led” by.
There is human wisdom and then, there is the Holy Spirit’s wisdom, which is FAR superior to “man’s” finite wisdom.
Personally, I am sick and tired of reading yet another article written by man and “his” wisdom, espousing certain things that, while sounding good, do not have the Spirit’s wisdom flowing through it.
“Man” can make all sorts of logical and well sounding arguments and dissertations, that mean absolutely NOTHING of any lasting consequence, if it is not inspired wisdom from the Holy Spirit.
And the internet is FILLED with ‘such’ wisdom of man…..nice and logical and seemingly appropriate advice or teaching, yet devoid of the POWER of God.
This is what is lacking in our churches, in our sermons and in our congregations. The POWER of the LIVING GOD is not there inspiring, uplifting and guiding through the Holy Spirit’s wisdom.
But I believe, a change is on the horizon and in fact is transpiring now.
The tide is turning.
What is this confusion between The Word of God as found in the Bible and Jesus Christ the Word of God. Any spiritual entity which does NOT conform to the BIBLICAL persona of Jesus Christ is just another of the many false christs’ we are warned about repeatedly.
Heidi wrote:
Wayne, I am only commenting on what you wrote because I believe you are aware (from my posts) that like you, I agree we MUST trust in the living word of scripture as guidance.
————————————————————-
Moses grew up in Egypt with all of its teachings etc.
Question: Was Moses led by the written Word to free the Israelites and lead them out of Egypt?
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Mario, please read ALL my previous posts in this thread to “hear” what I am really saying in this thread. And then comment.
Posted by Wayne:
Anti-christs, of course are any thing that competes with the authentic or BIBLICAL Christ and is clearly being presented by people such as Andrew Horton, Gary Simpson and David Larsen on these sites. They, in fact, like so many others today, seem to be presenting themselves as alternatives christs and as such need to be avoided like all other false teachers and false prophets.-
Comment:
It seems that in one short paragraph, you have included Andrew Horton, Gary Simpson (myself), and David Larsen in the same category as Anti-Christs, alternatives christs, false teachers, and false prophets.
I can perhaps understand your inclusion of David Larsen, who has openly admitted that he does not believe in the trinity of God, but for Andrew and myself, we are IMO just as pro-trinity, pro-bible, and anti-satan as you seem to be.
Your objections do not appear to be stemming from our allegiance to the Jesus Christ of the Bible, since we both claim to serve Him as faithfully as you do, but to the level of understanding (discernment) given to each one by the Holy Spirit.
Our acceptance of a brother/sister in Christ must always be based upon our allegiance to the Jesus Christ of the Bible (as revealed in the Scriptures), and never be based upon a persons level of Christian growth, knowledge, or understanding.
It is easy to fall into Satan’s trap of accusing a brother/sister of taking scripture out of context, when the simple truth may be that the Holy Spirit of God has shown them a truth that He has not yet shown us.
I love you as a brother in Christ, and appreciate your zeal for the scriptures. I pray that God will give you at least as much zeal for His Holy Spirit who wrote them.
In Acts 7:51 prior to the stoning of Stephen, he identifies the Jewish religious leaders sin, which is amazingly, the same as most of ours:
AC 7:51 “You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
Question:
Are you steadfastly refusing to let the Holy Spirit of God lead you, by insisting that you must be led by the book that He wrote?
Every one of us start out as an immature child of God. As we grow and mature, we become sons of God. A part of that process is to give the Holy Spirit His rightful place in our lives. Romans 8:14, reveals to us that in order to be a mature believer, we must be led by the Spirit of God.
PS for Andrew J Horton:
Well said in your posts today. You seem to understand the new covenant, and the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer as few Christians do today.
Religion verses Relationship
Another, most common and extremely suc cessful strategy the devil uses is the deception of believers through a legalistic, religious spirit. If satan can’t keep us from believing in Jesus Christ, he at least will try to limit our effective ness as Christians by luring us into the “place of religiousness”, which is surrounded by walls. These walls, as a major part of the deception plan, are there to give us a sense of protection. Our insecurities, and the drive to be in a posi tion of control, easily make us susceptible to falling into the trap of being religious rather than relational in our pursuit of Christ. It is much easier and less demanding to accept and practice a “form” of Christianity than to diligently and patiently work at the development of a meaningful relationship with Jesus Christ. (Let me state clearly that the traditions and religious routines and rituals found in the church are not at all restricted to particular age groups or denominations.)
The most significant difference between a personal relationship with Jesus and a religious attitude is that a relationship is like a living, breathing organism; it is dynamic, and always subject to change and growth; whereas religion is lifeless, cold and dry. In God’s Word the Lord uses the example of a vine and its branches to describe our desired relationship with Him:
“I am the true vine… Abide in me, and I in you. As the
branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the
vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the Spiritual Warfare – A Reality 101
vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I
in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without
me ye can do nothing” (Jn.15:1,4,5).
Just like a garden needs to be well-watered and kept free from the weeds that easily come and choke and destroy, so also a relationship, in order for it to be alive, to be fruitful and to grow, must be nurtured; it requires a person’s willingness to work at it, to be considerate and patient, and to be open for changes. Only when we are continually open to learn and grow, and willing to adjust, will we be able to bear fruit. And as we abide in Him, may we never despise the necessary times of being pruned.
The walls of religion, seemingly there to protect us, do not allow us to be free and open for changes, to venture out, and to explore by faith what God has in store for His people. It is most often a religious spirit that hinders us from recognizing a sovereign move of God. The most pro found example of the deceiving power of reli gion is seen in the lives of the Pharisees who were unable to recognize Jesus as the long-awaited Messiah. Disconnected from the vine, religion cannot bear fruit and eventually dries up.
When we look at the teaching and the application of Biblical truths, we could say that religion proclaims and applies God’s Word without God’s presence. His Word only comes alive in its powerful, supernatural dimension through the presence and the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Just as Adam, after the Lord had created him from the dust of the earth, was yet without life, so also God’s Word, unless He breathes life into it, is not very effective. It is God’s spiritual anointing that makes the Bible a book unlike any other book. (End excerpt: Awakening the Sleeping Giant)
I see a progression when I look at the old covenant and then the new. Under the old covenant the people had to be familiar with the Scriptures, (i.e. the laws) usually through the teaching of someone who was educated, as most people were not. Seldom would a chosen man of God personally hear His voice directly and then communicate God‘s requests to the people.
After Jesus established the new covenant, however, we have moved to another level where He not only has fulfilled all of the law, but He also now writes these things into a believers heart, which comes with the new birth of the believer. With the curtain torn in half, access was given to ALL that they might communicate with God and be led by His Holy Spirit directly. This meant that someone who was(is) uneducated can still be led without the absolute necessity of being able to read the Scriptures.
For the longest time the Catholic Church forbade its members to read the Scriptures as only the appointed priest was allowed to do so. This of course, gave a great deal of power to the Catholic leadership as almost all its members did not know the Bible and were therefore easily abused or misinformed. (i.e.: “Give us your money and your sins will be forgiven.”) Certainly no one told these believers that they could have a personal, spirit filled relationship with Jesus and be led by His Holy Spirit whereby not needing a priest as mediator or teacher and guide.
Still today many believers seem to prefer to listen and put their trust into a well-educated leader rather than developing a personal relationship with Jesus for themselves.
Someone who personally knows Jesus and is full of His Spirit and led by Him could not easily fall for the false prophets who are usually well-versed when it comes to Scripture.
A true man of God will never contradict but rather confirm the written Word of God.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Thank you Gary and Andrew.
I have obviously misunderstood your apparent insistence on something other than scripture as the basis for faith.
The issues confronting the church are much greater than that hoary old chestnut the continuation/cessation of spiritual gifts debate.
The stuff going around today is taking people to hell whilst deceiving them into thinking they are born again christians by posing the question “Did God really say …….?” as Satan indeed tempted Eve.
I do indeed hope that I have misunderstood you and I am quite happy to apologise if that is warranted.
Things are obviously very bad in the church at this time in history. I have been shocked to realize that many people I have respected as christians for many years have indeed sold out to the large scale apostasy that has over run the church.
Many of my comments on these sites carry the thread of what I am talking about.
I agree Wayne, one of the oldest lies Satan uses is to question the word of God or twist it. He was a liar from the beginning and continues strong today with the same lie.
Wayne wrote Jul 17th 2010:
Only Satan would attempt to convince people to follow “leadings” without testing them against the Word of God which has been given to us as the ultimate safeguad against delusion. The BIBLE warns that God has sent delusion to test those who do NOT love the Truth.”
I strongly agree here. I have seen those that become “puffed up” by an abundance of revelation. Often it leads to statements that imply someone’s spiritual maturity is lacking towards those that hold their revelation up to the revealed word. I don’t consider that reading and understanding scripture to be an old covenant thing.
The Word of God is the Word, whether it is written in Scripture or spoken by the Holy Spirit. To think that reading Scripture is inferior or that it has been superceded by a new way, being led by the Holy Spirit, is just wrong. Jesus used the written Scripture and called it the word of God. To leave behind or discount the written Scripture was never a command from God. If anyone hears a ‘spirit’ tell them such a thing, it is a lying spirit, not the Holy Spirit. It leads to deception by removing the witness of the written Scripture. If it wasn’t so dangerous it would be laughable when people try to discount the use of Scripture by quoting Scripture.
For those that want to know I do believe in and operate in the gifts of the spirit as the Holy Spirit wills. I also read and apply Scriture as the Holy Spirit gives understanding.
Stan
Makkehelah wrote:
“The Word of God is the Word, whether it is written in Scripture or spoken by the Holy Spirit. To think that reading Scripture is inferior or that it has been superceded by a new way, being led by the Holy Spirit, is just wrong”
Amen to that!
Couldn’t let this one go by either:
“To leave behind or discount the written Scripture was never a command from God. If anyone hears a ’spirit’ tell them such a thing, it is a lying spirit, not the Holy Spirit”
Yes! That’s why the emphasis upon scripture in this thread and other ones as well, is so important.
In the wilderness, we learn to rely upon the scriptures and to study for ourselves, instead of relying upon someone else’s perhaps, faulty interpretation of the scriptures…..or the lack of scripture in their teachings.
People are perishing because the WORD of scripture is being diminished in importance in our churches.It is a deliberate ploy of Satan to do so- so that individuals will have no knowledge of the truth, which is the word.
I agree wholeheartedly with your post above “Gary Simpson” which begins:
“Posted by Wayne:
Anti-christs, of course are any thing that competes with the authentic…”
and I thank you for your encouragement… :-)
“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.” (1 Thess 5:23-24 NASB)
Thank You Jesus… Thank You Father… Thank You Holy Spirit…
Led by His Spirit–Walking by Faith
Letting go is such a hard and frightful thing to do for most people. The letting go of the familiar and tested ground, the safe place where one knows that he is going to be okay.
For a Christian believer it often comes with the fear of being deceived or misled while venturing into unfamiliar territory, or the fear of failure as we see with the spies who checked out the promised land.
Prov.3:5: Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
Letting go of the “old” and stepping out into the ‘new’ strips away a man’s confidence as it bears a great deal of insecurity.
“Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. … to give drink to my people, my chosen. This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise” (Is.43:18-21).
I certainly realize, that “letting go”, for some people, is a huge step. And changes or accomplishments can not be achieved without overcoming a few obstacles. But isn’t it worth to put up with some struggles and battles to gain the freedom He offers? When Moses prepared the way for the Israelites to go to the promised land, because of the problems they were facing, they would rather have stayed as slaves in Egypt than to be free.
Change isn’t easy and a new beginning can be scary because of the factor of the unknown that lies ahead.
“O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”(Gal.3:1,2)
If we truly love and seek Him first, in all things, we can have the confidence that, while protecting us from deception, He will lead us through His Holy Spirit on our journey with Jesus.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Amanda (on 7/18) wrote:
Gary, you quoted 2 Corinthians 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” but you failed to mention that Paul was using this as evidence to the Corinthians of his competence to the preaching of the gospel which is the forgiveness of sins by Jesus’ blood – the NEW covenant. When reading the scriptures we must read them in context.
Comment:
Simply stating a truth of scripture is not taking it out of context.
The truth being expressed here is that
1- the new covenant is of the spirit, not the letter, and that
2- the new covenant brings life, and not death
This truth of scripture stands, and is not taken out of context.
Even if Paul was using this truth as evidence to the Corinthians, it doesn’t change the truth about the new covenant.
You confuse the issue when you introduce the blood of Jesus – the NEW covenant.
1- First of all, the blood of Jesus is the blood of the new covenant, not the covenant itself. It is used to seal the new covenant.
2- Second, the blood of Jesus is not even mentioned once in the entire chapter. The blood of Jesus is out of context here.
Any covenant that God has made with man has required death and the shedding of blood to seal the covenant. The death of Jesus on the cross, and the shedding of His blood, is what God required to seal the new covenant.
A covenant is an agreement between two persons, in this case, between God and man.
The old covenant agreement (Law) was that
1- God would be their God, and provide them with direction, provision and protection,
2- The people would follow their God, and be obedient to all that he required of them.
This covenant had one problem: the people could not keep their end of the agreement.
This necessitated the giving of a new covenant (Grace) which the people could keep. God did this by not only keeping His part of the new covenant, but by giving His Holy Spirit to every person, and by His Holy Spirit, ensuring that the person kept their part of the covenant. In short, God guarantees His part and our part of the new covenant, thereby making it an everlasting covenant.
LK 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
LK 10:26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
LK 10:27 He answered: ” `Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ ; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
LK 10:28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
The old covenant was a covenant of the letter (engraved in letters on stone – verse 7). Since man could not keep the covenant, instead of leading to life, it lead to death.
The new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit (He lives in all who are born again). Man doesn’t have to keep this covenant (God does it for us). The Spirit gives life. We know this because 2 Cor 3:6 says so.
Rom 8:13 says:
13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
Here we see how God keeps our end of the covenant. We, by His Spirit, put to death the misdeeds of the body, so that we can live.
Heb 8:6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
HEB 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
“The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
HEB 8:9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
HEB 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
HEB 8:11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
HEB 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
HEB 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
You were spot on in your efforts to HONOUR the Word of God Amanda and I pray that God will bless you for it.
Why do so many people find it necessary to complicate the scriptures?
They are given to us as the God Breathed words of our Heavenly Father Himself to show us how to live a life pleasing to HIM. Many people actually delight in making them as complicated and ineffectual as possible.
PRIDE is the reason and it is an abomination to God. Faithfulness to the Word of God is what he requires in all humility and simplicity NOT unwarranted and unnecessary complications in receiving and applying the revealed Word of God to our lives.
FALSE religion and FALSE teaching is everywhere and Pride as much as anything blinds spiritual eyes to the discernment available to us as we humbly seek to apply the revealed Word of God to our lives.
DEIFICATION of man, as is promulgated by many false teachers and false prophets such as Kenneth Copeland is idolatry and will be rejected by God as will all who follow these perversions of the Gospel.
Being humble is a choice!
Peter brings this out in I Peter 5:6: “Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God.” James 4:10 agrees: “Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord.” Even as we can choose to fast, we can choose to allow our minds to change and submit to God to become one with Him. Hardening our hearts, or exercising our pride, is a choice too (see Hebrews 3:8, 15).
Perseverance in faith is the best evidence of the sincerity of our faith. Hearing the word often is a means of salvation, yet, if not hearkened to, it will expose more to the Divine wrath. The happiness of being partakers of Christ and his complete salvation, and the fear of God’s wrath and eternal misery, should stir us up to persevere in the life of obedient faith.
Let us beware of trusting to outward privileges or professions, and pray to be numbered with the true believers who enter heaven, when all others fail because of unbelief.
As our obedience to the Will of God as revealed to us in His Word (The Bible) follows according to the power of our faith, so our sins and want of care are according to the prevailing of unbelief in us.
Quote:
{ Letting go is such a hard and frightful thing to do for most people. The letting go of the familiar and tested ground, the safe place where one knows that he is going to be okay.
For a Christian believer it often comes with the fear of being deceived or misled while venturing into unfamiliar territory, or the fear of failure as we see with the spies who checked out the promised land.
Prov.3:5: Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
Letting go of the “old” and stepping out into the ‘new’ strips away a man’s confidence as it bears a great deal of insecurity.
“Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. … to give drink to my people, my chosen. This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise” (Is.43:18-21).} Unquote
Amen, Mario. When the Lord says to forget the former things, He really means it – He is doing something new in our day once again on the cusp of the millenium. Isaiah prophesied this to point towards the new covenant and admonish the Israelites they would have to be willing to “forget” the old covenant and lay it aside in order to be prepared to receive the new.
Isa 43:16 This is what the Lord says– he who made a way through the sea, a path through the mighty waters,
Isa 43:17 who drew out the chariots and horses, the army and reinforcements together, and they lay there, never to rise again, extinguished, snuffed out like a wick:
Isa 43:18 “Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past.
Here He was talking about the Red Sea, the days of Moses and the giving of the Mosaic Covenant, telling them of a day when they would need to forget those things, the day when Jesus would usher in a new age. See the colon that joins that sentence with “forget the former things”..
Now in our day, at the end of this age, we are preparing once again for something new.. a new Day, the Day of the Lord and the millenial rule..and it won’t be like our former things..we musn’t be looking back, but forward.
( Heidi144 – if you are still reading on this thread – here is a verse of scripture that might be of help with one of the threads on the forum:
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because AS HE IS, SO ARE WE in this world.
Right in line with the word you gave – and notice too it has to do with the day of judgment! )
This is excellent. I’ve been called out for 3 years now..it’s been really tough and I’ve fallen to different types of temptation. But God drew me back, to Him. The Wilderness can indeed make you or break you depending upon you tenacity and perseverance, God have mercy on us and give us grace. Thanks Andrew!
Amen Watchful, AMEN!!!
Wayne said:
Why do so many people find it necessary to complicate the scriptures?
They are given to us as the God Breathed words of our Heavenly Father Himself to show us how to live a life pleasing to HIM. Many people actually delight in making them as complicated and ineffectual as possible.
PRIDE is the reason and it is an abomination to God. Faithfulness to the Word of God is what he requires in all humility and simplicity NOT unwarranted and unnecessary complications in receiving and applying the revealed Word of God to our lives.
FALSE religion and FALSE teaching is everywhere and Pride as much as anything blinds spiritual eyes to the discernment available to us as we humbly seek to apply the revealed Word of God to our lives.
YES and it is worsening…..
Amen Mario.
For those who have a problem with the Kenneth & Gloria Copeland ministries, think about the following fact.
Six major TV evangelistic ministries were investigated by Congress and the IRS, starting in about 2007. Some of these were T.D.Jakes, Benny Hinn and the Copelands. Which ministries are still on the air?
Perhaps there is something to be said about the integrity of the message of those who are still on the air? Perhaps the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not as displeased with their message, as their human critics are? Perhaps there is a “spirit of envy” at work in these human critics?
Concerning the prosperity/ false gospels: all of them are such…. that you mentioned above:
It is the Spirit of Truth that reveals and opposes the Spirit of Error!!!
People shall know the TRUTH and it is the Truth that sets the People FREE!!!
NOTE: Check out http://kennethcopelandblog.com
If you defend and / or follow T.D. Jakes, Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland, you are in deception. Period.
Now, as regards the sojourn of Israel in the wilderness and the covenant instituted at Mt. Sinai. Most call the ‘old’ covenant the ‘law of Moses’ or simply the law, but it really began with Abraham. It was outlined to Moses at Mount Sinai. It is incorrect to say that the old covenant caused death. It was not the covenant that caused death, but sin, which was made manifest by the light of law, which is holy and just and good. (Romans 7)
The ‘New’ Covenant is not ‘new’ in the sense of either purpose or focus. It is the same covenant designed to restore fellowship between God and man. Jesus fulfilled the terms of the old covenant. Because of this, He is able to bring us, His brethren, into the covenant with Him. This is what Paul means when he says:
Galatians 3:6-29
“… just as Abraham ‘believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, ‘In you all the nations shall be blessed.’ So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.’ But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for ‘the just shall live by faith.’ Yet the law is not of faith, but ‘the man who does them shall live by them.’ Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, ‘And to seeds,’ as of many, but as of one, ‘And to your Seed,’ who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
So we see that, in the end, all of it comes down to faith, and it always has. Unlike Abraham who knew only the promise, we have the advantage of actually know what our faith is in. And then we see that the covenant extends all the way back to Adam, as well.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23
“But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.”
1 Corinthians 15:42-45
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
Now Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. The Holy Spirit enables us to walk in faith. So do we just sit back and ‘have faith’ leaving everything to God? God forbid! Faith is more than just believing. Faith must have an outworking of deeds or it is not faith at all. (James 2:19-26)
In the ‘Old’ Covenant, the one who drew near to God on behalf of the people was the High Priest. In the ‘New’ Covenant there is still a High Priest, only a better one.
Hebrews 4:14-16
“Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
Through the Scripture we discover also the priesthood is like that of Melchizedek:
Hebrews 5:5-11
“So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:
‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’
As He also says in another place:
‘You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek’;
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, called by God as High Priest ‘according to the order of Melchizedek,’ of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.”
The ‘new’ covenant has been in force since before the creation of the world. (Matthew 25:34, John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:19-21, Revelation 13:8) When God breathed into Adam’s nostrils the breath of life, the cross was already a finished work in God’s foreknowledge.
The nation of Israel faltered in the wilderness, not through disobedience per se, but through lack of faith – unbelief. They had already drank water from the rock, collected manna from heaven, emerged victorious from battle and followed the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. When they balked at entering the promised land, they were turned BACK into the wilderness for 40 more years. Despite seeing the provision and power of God work mightily on their behalf, they faltered when it came time to take on the giants.
Here we have lesson to be learned. It really doesn’t matter how many times you have experienced the hand of God, seen His miracles or followed His lead. If you balk at His clear command, you will find yourself wandering again. Paul makes this point when he says:
1 Corinthians 10:1-12
“Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, ‘The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.’ Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.”
We stand by faith. We stand on the word. Jesus refuted satan by saying “It is written…” and so can we. “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” (Romans 15:4)
Israel in the wilderness had Moses before them and saw the hand of God, yet still they murmured and rebelled. Aaron and Miriam (Moses’ siblings) knew that Moses heard God, yet they were foolish enough to challenge him – after all, they heard God also – Aaron was high priest, after all, and Miriam a prophetess! Korah was swallowed up by the earth because he challenged God’s command through Moses’ that they have a tassel to remind them to be holy. Israel, Korah contended, was ALREADY holy. And so we see that pride is the downfall of many.
Therefore, brethren, let the wilderness do it’s work. Put aside pride and envy and learn to hear and follow for it is written “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” Like the Bereans, receive the word with all readiness of mind, and search the scriptures daily.
Do not let is be said of you:
“For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” Hebrews 5:12-14
Instead Brethren, “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.” (Hebrews 10:23-25)
“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith – to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen. (Romans 16:25-27)
>>>>>Jul 20th 2010 Moll writes:
For those who have a problem with the Kenneth & Gloria Copeland ministries, think about the following fact.<<<<
FYI: In the Kundalini Warning video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM
Who is that at about 2 minutes into the video? Oh, my, why that's Kenneth Copeland.
What a surprise.
Good truth, Seraphah,
It truly is sickening, it is….the false teachers speak like the world, and act like the world AND talk like the world. There is no true, word of God, holiness and purity in the false because it is false and it is so delusional. According to its large numbers, clientel, they do not like to offend the carnal, for they are carnal themselves. They point the people to themselves, keeping them for themselves and not to Jesus, the True Shepherd.
The world approves them, so with that, they make rapid progress, and have many followers such as themselves, the world will love its own, and its own will love it. The true doctrine leads us from the world to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. This is a mark of the spirit of truth in opposition to the spirit of error. We are to have the pure and holy word. If mixed, it must be thrown out. Sadly much of the world is easily seduced, it doesnt bring , nor cause a true heart change or true repentance. Just keep on living as you are, your fine right where your at, all the while the many are going to hell and laughing as they go, not even knowing it because of ignorance and spiritual blindness, led by many men/women whom out of their own, pride are leading many to the slaughter. I always say if their is a large crowd, than they arent Preaching the truth of God’s word !!!
Seraphah: Just listen to yourself! “If you defend and / or follow T.D. Jakes, Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland, you are in deception. Period.”
On another thread, you judged anybody who read anything else but the King James Version of the Bible also as “in deception”.
Again, just listen to yourself!
Should we salute you, and respond “Yes, God” to you? Are you usurping God in passing judgement? Isn’t it His place to judge? Perhaps the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is NOT as displeased with the message of those whom you criticize, as you are?
Could it be that you are living a deceived life? Could your deception, as declared in your writings, be that you “believe” you are entitled to, have the right to, take on the role of God, and pass judgement on people and their ministries?
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them ‘I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matt.7:22&23, KJV).
“Knowing the correct password — saying ‘Lord, Lord’ for instance — isn’t going to get you anywhere with me. What is required is serious obedience — doing what the Father wills. I can see it now — at the Final Judgement, thousands (of Seraphah’s) strutting up to me and saying ‘Lord, we preached your Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking.’ And do you know what I am going to say? ‘You missed the boat. All you did was use me/myName to make yourselves important. You don’t impress me one bit. You’re out of here’” (the same portion of Matthew using the words of The Message).
Moll Quote
Could it be that you are living a deceived life? Could your deception, as declared in your writings, be that you “believe” you are entitled to, have the right to, take on the role of God, and pass judgement on people and their ministries?
end quote:
No, it is called discerning /discernment!!!!
1 Corinthians12
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
For the “message” has no life or power in it, it takes away from the TRUE WORD OF GOD, because it is so far away from the Lord word and His TRUTH, its enough to make me puke! From what you just shared above is from the message, that is so , so terribly sick!
very timely word for my husband and I…wow, I am so amazed to see how the Lord is working in our lives…we can see it although we don’t quite know where He’s leading us…He knows our hearts and our desire to know Him! We are fed up with all the “crap” for lack of a better word at the moment:) Power struggles, spiritual abuse, false doctrine, you name it we see it happening right before our eyes…we just prayed and said “lead us Lord”…”where do we go we go from here??”…as of yesterday, we are no longer part of a organized church…we knew it was going to happen because we would not “conform” to their beliefs…but we hoped we could make a difference..help them to stay on track biblically…but we were told we were “wasting their time”…wow…ok…but we maybe out but we are not down!!! Praise God!!! We will stand for the truth no matter what!
Here’s a scripture to meditate on.
1st Corinthians 4:19-20
“But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power.”
>>>>>On Jul 20th 2010 Moll writes:
Seraphah: On another thread, you judged anybody who read anything else but the King James Version of the Bible also as “in deception”. <<<<<
That, Moll, is nothing but a lie. I have NEVER said that to anyone in my entire life. I have used and read several translations. I quote most often from the KJV because it isn't copyrighted, use the NKJV because it's easier for some to understand.
I don't use paraphrases to teach from, nor for doctrine, because they are all far too biased.
You won't find many here who have any patience with the prosperity Gospel. In fact, there is a special section in the forum to discuss how harmful that particular false teaching has been to the body. I was delivered from that deception years ago.
Feel free to ignore anything I say, Moll. It's not my job to convince you of anything. You seem to believe that no one can say anything negative about anyone – unless, of course, it's you. I am simply amazed how you have the nerve to rail at me about judging Copland's 'ministry' and standing with God while you don't hesitate for a minute to pick apart mine.
Yes, I have ministry. I was called to expose deceptions, you see. And I do that without begging for money or trying to gather myself a following. I don't WANT anybody following me, thank you – they need to follow Jesus. I don't need a TV show or a jet or offerings to support me. God is my support.
And, for the record, I don't hate you – I pity you. You really need to get that there plank out of your eye Moll. Your pride, anger and hatred isn't very pretty.
Your words to Heidi, Moll, were “Remember John 3:17. If it wasn’t your Saviour’s job/duty/calling/mission to condemn mankind, why is it yours? Stop it.”
Follow your own advice.
My wife and I went out shopping this afternoon. We stopped by Home Depot to buy 5 bags of red mulch. I loaded them up on cart and then took them to the check counter. The lady rang them up and told me that that would be $11.95. I swiped my credit card through the reader and picked up the pen to sign the reader receipt. She said, under 50 and you don’t have to sign. I thanked her for the complement, but said, I’m well over 50 and I’m a Christian and I can’t lie. You want to see my drivers license.
Now that’s a true story minus a buck and a quarter.
Good night Glenn
Seraphah wrote:
Now, as regards the sojourn of Israel in the wilderness and the covenant instituted at Mt. Sinai. Most call the ‘old’ covenant the ‘law of Moses’ or simply the law, but it really began with Abraham.
Comment: This can be confusing.
The covenant with Abraham, and the covenant with Moses (old covenant) are two completely separate covenants; one of faith (Abraham), and one of law (Moses). The commonality is that they both were made by God with His chosen people (at different times).
Throughout time, God has had several covenants with His people.
1- Probably the first was with Adam after the fall, when a Redeemer was promised, and God sacrificed an animal for the sin of Adam and Eve, and to provide skins, as a covering for their nakedness (Gen 3:21).
2- A later one was with Noah after the flood, recorded in Gen 8:20-22, and Gen 9:8-17.
3- A later one was with Abraham, recorded in Gen 15:18-21
4- A later one was with Moses, recorded in Ex 24:7-8
5- And a New Covenant (the Bible calls it new – Jer 31:31), recorded in Matt 26:28 that Jesus made with His disciples.
I believe that most professing Christians today, are actually living under the Old Covenant, know little or nothing about the New Covenant, and believe with all of their heart that they are living the abundant Christian life of the New Covenant.
What do you believe about this?????
Mario, in answer to your question about Moses:
In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, (Hebrews 1:1-2a RSV)
There is an account in the Gospel of Luke, Chapter 24, that I never read without wishing I could have been there. There are few stories in Scripture I can say that about, because I truly believe that since the coming of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, Jesus Christ is more real and more available — his presence in the heart of a believer today is more wonderfully rich — than he ever was to the disciples in the days of his flesh. Therefore, in knowing Jesus our Lord, we in this age have far greater advantage than they ever did. However, there are certain stories in the Gospels which make me long to have been there. This is one of them.
It is the story of an encounter which occurred on the day of the resurrection of our Lord, when two men were walking along the road from Jerusalem to Emmaus. The news had come that Jesus had risen, but no one would believe it. It was absolutely incredible to them! The hearts of these men were filled with sorrow as they contemplated the events of that week. The sun had been blotted out of their sky by the death of Jesus. They hardly knew which way to turn or what to do. All of us who experienced the emotional drain occasioned by the assassination of President Kennedy know at least a little of what they must have felt as they trudged sadly along.
Luke tells us that while they walked they were discussing all the things that had happened. They could hardly speak of anything else, and were intent on their conversation. Without their realizing it, a stranger drew near and accompanied them. As they walked along, this stranger asked them, “What is this you are talking about?” They stopped and looked at him in amazement, and said, “Are you a stranger in Jerusalem, that you don’t know what has been happening? Why, the whole city has been filled with the news about how Jesus of Nazareth, the prophet, who we were sure was the Son of God, a mighty man who worked miracles, was delivered by our high priests into the hands of the Romans. He was taken out and crucified. We were so sure he was the one who had come to be the Redeemer of Israel. Furthermore, there have been some strange reports flying about. It is said that when the women went out to his tomb this morning they found that his body was gone! We hardly know what to make of it.”
When they had finished speaking, the stranger said to them, “O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!” Then, Luke tells us, “beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.” Later on, as they were thinking back over the events of that wonderful incident, they said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the scriptures?”
What was it that caused that wonderful, strange heartburn, that divine glow of anticipation which lit again the smoldering fires of faith in their hearts and renewed their strength? (How we desire an experience like that!) Well, it was nothing more nor less than the exposition of the Old Testament in the power and clarity of the Holy Spirit. No incident in all the Bible catches up the specific purpose of the Old Testament more adequately than this story: “Beginning at Moses and the prophets, he expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself,” (Luke 24:27 RSV). This is what the Old Testament is for. It is a book designed to prepare the heart for the reception of that which satisfies. This is what these disciples discovered on the road to Emmaus. The Old Testament is deliberately an incomplete book; it never was intended to be complete.
Dr. W. H. Griffith Thomas has suggested that if we were to approach the Old Testament as though we had never read it before, and take note of all the remarkable predictions of Someone who is coming, we would find that this series of predictions begins in the early chapters of Genesis, and as the text moves along, the predictive element grows in detail and degree of anticipation until, in the Prophets, it breaks out into glowing and marvelously flaming colors — all describing One who is coming. But when we finished our reading at Malachi, we would still not know who.
Thus we would observe that the Old Testament is a book of unfulfilled prophecy.
Then, if we read it through again, noticing this time all the strange sacrifices — that remarkable, mysterious stream of blood which begins in Genesis and flows in increasing volume all through the course of the book — thousands and multiplied thousands of animals whose blood was poured out in unending sacrifice, and a continual emphasis upon the need of sacrifice, we would close the book again at Malachi with a realization that here is a book of unexplained sacrifices, as well as unfulfilled prophecies.
Once again, if we read through the Old Testament, this time noticing the expressions of its prominent personages, the major leaders who appear in the pages of the Old Testament, we would see the longing they express for something more than life was offering them. For example, Abraham sets out to find the city whose builder and maker is God. Men are on a pilgrim journey all the way through the book. There is the continual crying out of thirsty souls, longing after something which has not yet been realized. We would close the book again at Malachi with the realization that it was not only a book of unfulfilled prophecies and unexplained sacrifices, but also of unsatisfied longings. And we would find no answer to the prophecy or the sacrifice or the longing in the Old Testament.
But the minute you open the New Testament you read, “The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ…” He is the one who fulfills the prophecy, the one who explains the sacrifice, the one who satisfies the longing. Yet we cannot fully appreciate this until we have first been awakened by what the Old Testament has to say.
Dr. G. Campbell Morgan puts it slightly different. He divides the Old Testament into three major divisions: “A sigh for a priest, a cry for a king, and a quest for a prophet.” The first five books, the books of Moses, are a sigh for a priest — an expressive plea for the ministry of one who can be a priest to stand between man and God. The books of the historical section are a cry for a king. They gather up in a unified declaration the longing of the human heart for a voice of authority. What Morgan calls the didactic books, that is, the teaching books of the Old Testament, including all the rest — Job, Psalms, Proverbs, the Song of Solomon, and the Major and Minor Prophets — are a quest for a prophet, a reaching out for one who can expertly analyze human life, comment on the passing scene, and anticipate what is to come, and thus can encourage our hearts. When we open the New Testament, we find all this fulfilled in one person — Jesus Christ — the Priest, the King, and the Prophet.
This indicates clearly for us the nature of the Old Testament. It is a book intended to prepare us for something. The letter to the Hebrews of course, ties in closely with the Old Testament, and the first two verses catch this idea very beautifully. Do you remember how the writer begins?
In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, (Hebrews 1:1-2a RSV)
There you have the two Testaments side by side — the Old Testament: “In many and various ways God spoke of old,” or, as the King James Version puts it: “At sundry times and in diverse manners God spoke in times past” — and the New Testament: “In these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.” The completion of the Old is found in the New.
The phrase the writer employs describing the Old Testament is very significant: “In many and various ways God spoke…” As we read it through, we can see how true this is; there are many ways in which God speaks:
Beginning with Genesis we have the simple but majestic account of the story of creation, of the fall of man, and of the flood — an account which has never been equaled in all the annals of literature for power and simplicity of expression. This is followed by the straightforward narrative of the lives of the patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We find the thunderings of the Law in Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Then the drama of the historical books, the sweet singing of the Psalms, and the exalted beauty of the language of the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah. Theirs is a richness of expression which stands alone in all the realm of literature. Proverbs presents a practical, homespun wisdom; the Song of Solomon, Ruth, and Esther are books of delicate tenderness. There is the marvelous, mysterious language of Daniel and Ezekiel — the “wheels within wheels” and all the strange visions.
We see how true it is that in “many and various ways” God spoke through the prophets. Yet it is all God speaking. And still it is not complete; there is nothing in the Old Testament which can stand complete and of itself. It is all intended as preparation.
When you come to the New Testament, all these many voices from the Old Testament merge into one voice, the voice of the Son of God. Remember that marvelous scene in the book of The Revelation in which John says he saw the Lamb and he heard a voice like the voice of many waters? That voice sounds out, catching up in itself all the rivulets and creeks and streams of a thousand rivers flowing together in one great symphony of sound — the voice of the Son!
That is what is expressed in these first verses of Hebrews The Old Testament, in its incompleteness, is almost as though God spoke in syllables and phrases to us — wonderful phrases, rich syllables, but never quite connected, never quite complete. But in the New Testament, these syllables and phrases become one expressive discourse on the Son of God.
Who has believed what we have heard?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:1-6 RSV)
Amen, I enjoyed that Wayne, the bible is the greatest drama ever written! (non-fiction!) Jesus is the Key of David, the key that unlocks the mysteries and releases the truths of the OT scriptures. He speaks to us in parables and without a parable He does not speak – I’ve come to think of the law as a parable (s) of the spiritual truths in Christ. The sacrificial system was all a living parable about the Messiah, and the keeping of it was the yoke, the cross that the Israelites bore.
Well said, and some very poignant thoughts, especially the getting swallowed up by the wilderness part. Haven’t really thought about that before nor EVER heard it preached. It’s all been about coming out on the other side.
Wow ! What interesting thoughts from everybody.
The Word and the Holy Spirit, Who are both truly God, have to be saying the same thing. (Please understand I’m not being theological here, just logical.) The trouble with us is that we know God Himself, His Bible, and His ways, only imperfectly.
Consider the conception of baby Jesus. The Word was becoming visible flesh. Wow ! That would be all blessing to Mary, wouldn’t it ??!! Everyone would recognize that this was of God immediately on hearing that there’d been a supernatural conception, wouldn’t they ??!! What would WE have thought if Mary our unwed daughter told us that she’d been visited by the angel Gabriel and that the power of the Holy Spirit had come upon her, and that THAT was why she was now pregnant ?
Our souls and minds would have said, ‘this is sinful’, as Joseph originally thought. How many of us would have withheld judgment & sought God in prayer till HE gave clarification ? How many of us would immediately have remembered Isaiah 7:14 ..”.a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son”, … ? We are so limited in our thinking, in our knowledge and application of Scripture. THAT is why we desperately need to be seeking God in prayer these days, for the enlightenment of His Holy Spirit.
Just yesterday I was earnestly seeking God in prayer that His will for me, as revealed to me personally by His Holy Spirit, would come to pass. Then I continued on reading the Bible where I have been reading. Suddenly, a promise written in six words was enlightened to me. (This is one way God speaks personally to me. These ‘quickened’ verses speak to my spirit and heart, giving life and hope to me.) God was confirming AGAIN His wonderful promises to me.
Later on I received a letter from a sound-minded, mature sister in Christ – the only sister around here I’ve felt any freedom to share God’s words to me with. It was quite plain that she has not sought God or been able at all to understand what to her is such an unusual working of the Lord, that she doubts its authenticity. But does not God Himself say, ” Behold, I will do a new thing; now shall it spring forth; shall ye not know it ? I will even make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert.” (Isaiah 43:19)
The Holy Spirit had been really impressing me in the previous two days that this sister was just not comprehending or able to receive what I had received from the Lord, and that I must just have my faith between Him and me, ( as usual in my walk of faith).
HE IS AMAZING !!! But how sad that we are not all totally relying on Him, as I’ve begun to do again recently.
I hear you Jacqueline, and want to lift you up when I think of you. Thank you Andrew J. Horton, watchful, lizzie, mario, Seraphah, especially. There should be no schism in the Body, but your posts esp. have blessed me.
Someone early in this thread asked us to support our fellow believers going thru this wilderness.
My experience is like Paul’s – all forsook me, but the Lord stood with me and made sure that it all happened as it should. All praise to Him !
Agape to all of you in Christ.
Serenity.
Moll wrote on 7/20
For those who have a problem with the Kenneth & Gloria Copeland ministries, think about the following fact.
Six major TV evangelistic ministries were investigated by Congress and the IRS, starting in about 2007. Some of these were T.D.Jakes, Benny Hinn and the Copelands. Which ministries are still on the air?
Perhaps there is something to be said about the integrity of the message of those who are still on the air? Perhaps the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not as displeased with their message, as their human critics are? Perhaps there is a “spirit of envy” at work in these human critics?
Comment:
Moll, your whole argument seems to be based upon government approval rather that God’s approval.
The Bible, not the government, is God’s standard of righteousness.
The Bible says about the government (a part of the world):
1JN 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For everything in the world–the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does–comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
In contrast to this, Jesus says:
JN 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.
In 1 John 2:6 we are told that if we claim to live in Him (Jesus) we must walk as Jesus did.
Question: Did Jesus focus on get, get, get when it came to money? I don’t think so. He said that He did not even have a place to lay His head.
Also, he told a parable about a rich fool, who only wanted to get, get, get, instead of being rich toward God and give, give, give.
LK 12:16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. 17 He thought to himself, `What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’
LK 12:18 “Then he said, `This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.” ‘
LK 12:20 “But God said to him, `You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’
LK 12:21 “This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God.”
If we want to evaluate a ministry, we have to compare it with God’s standards, not the world’s standards. God’s perfect standards of righteousness are found in the Bible.
New Testament teaching is not get, get, get. That is the craving of our old nature. New Testament teaching is that this old nature, that only wants to get, get, get, must die.
In place of our old nature that is now dead, God has given us a new nature (His) that wants to give, give, give.
You tell me, Moll, which nature is Kenneth Copeland encouraging you to feed and to satisfy?
Why do you continue to resist the good advice so many other posters are giving you?
Stop using the world’s standards in evaluating things, and begin to be a Berean, comparing things by God’s standard, not man’s.
Acts 17:11 – 11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
There is no reason to confuse matters by trying to split up what God has done in His dealings with mankind. It is all part of one covenant. The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. Before Adam drew his first breath, the cross was a done deal. (Matthew 25:34, John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:19-21, Revelation 13:8)
The ‘covenant’ with Adam was the promise of a sacrifice to cover and redeem from death.
The ‘covenant’ of Noah was an ‘ark’ to save from just judgment of an angry God.
The ‘covenant’ with Abraham was the promise of God providing the sacrifice and the Son of promise.
The ‘covenant’ of Moses was the schoolmaster to teach the principles of living life in God’s will.
The ‘New Covenant’ that came with the cross was the fulfillment in time of all of these. It was the intended finish to the drama of man’s redemption and to encompass and supercede all other covenants.
That being the case, discussion of any ‘covenant’ besides the ‘new’ covenant is moot.
>>>>>On Jul 20th 2010 Gary Simpson wrote:
I believe that most professing Christians today, are actually living under the Old Covenant, know little or nothing about the New Covenant, and believe with all of their heart that they are living the abundant Christian life of the New Covenant.
What do you believe about this?????<<<<<
I believe that most professing Christians today, are actually living a lie, know little or nothing about true salvation, and believe with all of their heart that they are living redeemed when they are merely deluded.
Jesus said, "Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name’s sake, because they know not him that sent me."
When I hear about the 'abundant' life of a Christian, I always think of this:
23 Are they ministers of Christ?—I speak as a fool—I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often.24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one.25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness—28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches.29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation?30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.32 2 Corinthians 11:23-32
Seraphah wrote:
I believe that most professing Christians today, are actually living a lie, know little or nothing about true salvation, and believe with all of their heart that they are living redeemed when they are merely deluded.
Comment:
You say that most professing Christians today ….. know little or nothing about true salvation…..
You continue your post talking almost exclusively about believers being persecuted.
Question?
One might conclude that you are suggesting that true salvation is no longer based upon grace through faith, but now includes persecution?
Seraphah, please tell us what you know about true salvation?
Thanks, Gary
Seraphah wrote:
There is no reason to confuse matters by trying to split up what God has done in His dealings with mankind. It is all part of one covenant. The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. Before Adam drew his first breath, the cross was a done deal. (Matthew 25:34, John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:19-21, Revelation 13:8)
The ‘covenant’ with Adam was the promise of a sacrifice to cover and redeem from death.
The ‘covenant’ of Noah was an ‘ark’ to save from just judgment of an angry God.
The ‘covenant’ with Abraham was the promise of God providing the sacrifice and the Son of promise.
The ‘covenant’ of Moses was the schoolmaster to teach the principles of living life in God’s will.
The ‘New Covenant’ that came with the cross was the fulfillment in time of all of these. It was the intended finish to the drama of man’s redemption and to encompass and supercede all other covenants.
That being the case, discussion of any ‘covenant’ besides the ‘new’ covenant is moot.
Comment:
I did not split up what God has done in His dealings with mankind, God did this in His Word so that we could understand it. People will be confused big time when you attempt to throw them (the covenants) all in a bowl and mix them up, and present them as one gigantic covenant, which the Bible doesn’t even talk about.
God is a covenant making God, and He wants His people to voluntarily be in covenant with Him.
I do not deny that God has had a plan (not a covenant) from before the foundation of the earth, in which He restores mankind from the effects of the fall, deals with Satan and his followers, and takes redeemed mankind to Himself for eternity. God is not limited by time as we are, and He sees the end that we don’t see, but for our benefit, God presents things in a logical, timely way that our minds can understand. To depart from this God-ordained plan causes nothing but big time confusion.
When you suggest that discussion of any “covenant” besides the “new” covenant is moot, it suggests to me that you must consider studying and understanding that part of God’s word to be moot also?
What I am sure that you meant to convey is that since we now have access to the new covenant, it would be foolish for us to settle for anything less? To this, I whole heartedly agree.
The covenant with Noah is important, in that it promises us that God will never again put to death mankind by a worldwide flood. He has provided the rainbow as a sign to remind us that this covenant still stands.
The covenant with Abraham was important from the time of Abel to the day of Pentecost. Every man that was saved in this time frame was saved by exercising faith is God, as did Abraham. They were looking forward to the coming Messiah, and the salvation He would bring. (Hebrews Ch. 11)
The covenant with Moses (Law) has been the schoolmaster that has led men to Christ since it was first given. Although it does not save anybody, it brings them to the Christ who can save them. It still is in effect today, and will continue to be in effect until the last sinner comes to Christ, and Christ returns. Only then will it have accomplished it’s purpose.
Since Christ established the new covenant 2000 years ago, it has been the only way to be saved, and will remain the only way to be saved until the last sinner comes to Christ, and Christ returns.
In our lifetime, we operate first under the old covenant until we come to Christ. At that point, the old covenant has accomplished it’s work, It has shown us that we can not come to God by our own righteousness, and that we need Christ’s righteousness. At this point we reach the end of the law for righteousness for those who believe (Rom 10:4) and step into the new covenant of Grace and there after enjoy the righteousness of Christ. At this point, we also can walk in the Spirit, and fulfill all of the righteous requirements of the Law (we will, like Christ, fulfill the Law). At this point also, we must transition from obedience to the written word of God (Bible) to obedience to the Living Word of God (Jesus), who lives within us by His Spirit (2 Cor 3:6).
Although the law is no longer our source of righteousness, it remains our standard of God’s righteousness with which we compare all things. It is still, and will remain God’s written word which the Holy Spirit uses to teach men about God and His creation, and to draw lost souls to Himself through the preaching of the word.
When we transition from Law to Grace, there are two things which we leave behind, and two things that we cling to:
1- we leave behind having the law as our source of righteousness (now Christ is my righteousness), and we leave behind having the law as our source of direction (I am now led by Christ, by His Spirit, instead of the law)
2- we retain from the law its standard of God’s righteousness and truth, and compare all things to it, as did the Bereans, and we retain and preach the word of God so that the lost may believe and be saved, and the saved may grow in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Copelands are simply classic examples of the teachers FALSE teachings being promulgated by ravenous wolves. These false teachings are being accepted by the scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive so that people are being deceived into accepting doctrines of demons and are actually GOING TO HELL WHILST FALSELY BELIEVING THEY ARE BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS.
Many people have been deceived by Latter Rain exponents and other false prophets and teachers into thinking they are hearing from Jesus Christ when by biblical standards they are clearly being deceived by Satan.
I have repeatedly warned of the extreme folly of trusting our own judgement or the judgement of other people claiming to have “special anointings” or private visitations and special revelations as does the Bible. The Bible talks about the very elect being deceived in the Last Days if God did not shorten the days. Only those humbly and wholeheartedly submitted to the will of God as revealed in HIS Word the Bible will be have any chance of avoiding the deception of these days. I urge ALL bible believing christians to hold on, by the grace of God, to biblical christianity for as long as possible.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF DECEPTION IN THE CHURCH
Kenneth Copeland, who I have used as a classic example above was a student of Kenneth Hagin Senior who is considered the father of the heretical Word of Faith movement. Similar to claims which Gary Simpson and yourself appear to be making Andrew, Hagin outrageously claims that his (heretical) teachings came to him by divine revelation. Research by bible believing christian scholars has shown that he actually plagiarised Essex W Kenyon extensively in developing this multi-million dollar “christian” media empire for him and his cohorts.
Hagins’ son Ken Junior, boasting of at least eight (8) personal visits from Christ, as did his father teaches
“You are as much the incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth.”
This is the classic denial of Jesus Christ as God come in the flesh which is the most basic biblical test of the spirit of anti-christ.
Dabbling in the assortment of false teachings which men such as this have been responsible for exposing the church to has seen the church engaging in wholesale spiritual adultery. The video and other material on the invasion of evil spirits on the church being promulgated by Andrew Strom correctly identifies one of the symptoms of this spiritual adultery which I have previously referred to as a spiritual STD. Metaphorically the church has been acting like a spiritual whore and contracted spiritual syphilis.
God has sent delusion to test faithfulness to His Word and only those who remain faithful unitl the very end will avoid the JUDGEMENT that he will bring upon this apostate (whore) church.
The extent and scope of apostasy within the church today is clear evidence of this large scale delusion.
Your personal testimony MUST NEVER be allowed to supersede the Word of God.
TO AVOID DECEPTION in these dangerous days
ALWAYS REMEMBER:
JESUS TAUGHT FAITHFULNESS TO THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD AS THE MEANS OF SALVATION.
FAITHFULNESS TO THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD IS WHAT SEPARATES THE PEOPLE OF GOD FROM THE WORLD.
THE DESIRE AND ABILITY TO BE AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE WORD OF GOD IS MADE AVAILABLE TO US BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO HAS COME TO CONFIRM HIS WORD.
Moll wrote:
“Six major TV evangelistic ministries were investigated by Congress and the IRS, starting in about 2007. Some of these were T.D.Jakes, Benny Hinn and the Copelands. Which ministries are still on the air?
Perhaps there is something to be said about the integrity of the message of those who are still on the air?”
Integrity? Are you kidding?
Multiple palatial palace size homes, personal jets at their disposal, yet begging for money on every show, erroneous and completely unbiblical doctrine and on and on…..
Integrity? Right.
It’s harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. The Son of Man had nowhere to lay His head, not even a mud hut, much less a mansion. The closest He came to riding in a personal jet was when He borrowed the little donkey to ride. God forgive us, how far we have fallen!!!
Those of us who know the Holy Spirit personally and allow Him to dictate the Will of God to us rather than vice versa as is in vogue in much of the contemporary church know that HE will NEVER contradict the written Word of God. The Jesus Christ I follow is the Jesus Christ of the Bible NOT a Jesus I have invented in my own imagination.
The Bible is NOT a difficult book for those humbly submitted to HIS will and who seek the grace of God to enable them to faithfully apply the Word of God to their lives.
The Holy Spirit will NEVER introduce unbiblical, antibiblical or extra biblical teachings and practices. He will always gently lead us into the TRUTH of HIS Word as revealed in the Bible.
The HOLY SPIRIT will ALWAYS lead us to JESUS.
In an earlier post Gary referred to this scripture
1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
Kenneth Copeland and wife Gloria are considered to be two of the more intellectual leaders of the Word of Faith heresy which is home to many false prophets.
Matthew 24:24-25 (New International Version)
24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
Kenneth Copeland is known for his deification of man doctrine.
This, of course, is the same deception Satan offered Eve in the Garden of Eden which led to the fall of Man when He suggested “Did God really say that…….? He knows that….. (if you disobey God) you will be as God.”
According to Copeland, the Holy Spirit personally told him:
“A born again man (Jesus) defeated Satan. You are the very copy of that man.” Copeland then asked the Holy Spirit. “Well now, you don’t mean that I could have done the same thing?” Replied the Holy Spirit, Oh yeah, if you had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did. ‘Cause you’re a born again man too.”
A very simple understanding of the very verse you refer to would have prevented this man from this self indulgent heresy which fails to pass this most basic biblical test of the Spirit of Antichrist.
Many people have been deceived by this man into following this false spirit simply because they believe that some spirit they are following is superior to the Word of God, The Bibl is consistently confirmed by the (genuine) Holy Spirit of God.
There is NEVER any distinction between the revealed Word of God (the BIBLE) and the Living Word of God (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit of God other than the attempt at delusion which Satan and his emissaries will endeavour to introduce into the Church in a desperate attempt to lead them away from the eternal safety and security provided for those who will humbly submit to his revealed Will. Unfortunately, and in accordance with Bible prophecy, he is having great success in these last days.
His revealed will is and always will be available to us in HIS Word the Bible which is brought to life for us as we humbly submit ourselves to His Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
2 Peter 1:20
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
Any foundation other than that provided by Scripture is sinking sand and MUST be rejected by those who will remain faithful to HIM until the very end. Only those who remain faithful to HIS Word until the very end will be saved.
“A comprehensive expose of Kenneth Copeland, his “ministry,” theology and doctrine, is contained in Kenneth Copeland Unmasked by B Michael Bigg a former Word of Faith devotee.
Wayne wrote:
I have repeatedly warned of the extreme folly of trusting our own judgement or the judgement of other people claiming to have “special anointings” or private visitations and special revelations as does the Bible. The Bible talks about the very elect being deceived in the Last Days if God did not shorten the days.
Comment:
Your last sentence is not quite right according to my Bible. Matt 24:22 says, 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
This says that if the days were not shortened, no one would survive. The part about possibly being deceived comes two verses later.
Matt 24:24 says,24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible.
This says that false Christs and false prophets will try to deceive the elect. They will fail, because the elect are protected by Christ who lives in them (greater is He that is in me, than he that is in the world).
Let’s not give Satan credit for something that he doesn’t deserve. Let’s instead give God the glory for His divine protection.
The other passage that addresses this is Mark 13:20-22, and it says the same thing as the Matthew passage.
Wayne wrote:
Kenneth Copeland, who I have used as a classic example above was a student of Kenneth Hagin Senior who is considered the father of the heretical Word of Faith movement. Similar to claims which Gary Simpson and yourself appear to be making Andrew, Hagin outrageously claims that his (heretical) teachings came to him by divine revelation.
Comment:
Wayne, why do you continue to imply that your brothers in Christ, are heretics?
What is your criteria for labeling someone a heretic?
What makes Andrew a heretic in your eyes?
What makes me (Gary Simpson) a heretic in your eyes?
Are you claiming that there is no divine revelation today?
If you are going to label someone a heretic, you had better be able to back it up with solid, biblical evidence.
I resent your wild accusations, and insist that you bring your evidence before this forum, that it may be examined by everyone.
Wayne wrote:
THE DESIRE AND ABILITY TO BE AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE WORD OF GOD IS MADE AVAILABLE TO US BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO HAS COME TO CONFIRM HIS WORD.
Comment:
I agree with the first part of your statement that the Holy Spirit gives us the ability and desire to remain faithful to the word of God, but I can’t locate a Bible reference which states that the Holy Spirit confirms His Word.
The primary purposes of the Holy Spirit are to:
1- reestablish our spiritual connection with God, baptism gives life
2- indwell the believer, living as one with our spirit
3- acting as the vehicle through which Jesus/father live in us
4- puts to death the works of our flesh
5- imparts spiritual gifts and offices
6- leads us into all truth
7- Teaches us all spiritual things
8- empowers us to do the will of God
9- prays for us (intercedes)
I agree that the Holy Spirit will never deny the word of God (Bible), and that He will remind us of everything that Jesus said to His disciples, but where does it say that He comes to confirm the Word?
Your statement makes it sound like His primary purpose in coming was to confirm the Word, but my Bible doesn’t say that, does it?
Wayne wrote:
There is NEVER any distinction between the revealed Word of God (the BIBLE) and the Living Word of God (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit of God other than the attempt at delusion which Satan and his emissaries will endeavour to introduce into the Church in a desperate attempt to lead them away from the eternal safety and security provided for those who will humbly submit to his revealed Will.
Comment:
I believe that the Bible clearly shows a distinction between the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the scriptures (Bible).
The Bible never died on a cross as Jesus did
The Holy Spirit was not born of a virgin as Jesus was
Jesus never glorified Jesus as the Spirit has
Believing what the Bible says will never lead anyone away from God. God protects against this. If we ask for bread, He will not give us a stone.
Those who fear to do what the Bible says to do, don’t have God’s true love, which casts out all fear.Their fear leads them to disobedience.
Those who fear to surrender to the Holy Spirit of God, and to allow Him to have His way freely in their lives, do not love the Holy Spirit of God with all of their heart, and with all of their soul, and with all of their mind, and with all of their strength, as the first and greatest commandment directs.
Being led by the Holy Spirit is the revealed will of God, and the only way that we can please God.
Grieving the Holy Spirit of God is not pleasing to God. Quenching the Holy Spirit of God is not pleasing to God either. They both show disobedience to God
Failure to be filled with the Holy Spirit of God is a choice of self over God.
Choosing the written word of God (Bible) over the living Word of God (Jesus) is a choice of the old covenant instead of the new covenant. (death instead of life)
That is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE GARY SIMPSON
The HOLY SPIRIT WILL ALWAYS LEAD ONE TO OBEDIENCE TO THE WORD OF GOD HE WILL NEVER CONTRADICT THE WORD OF GOD OF WHICH HE HIMSELF IS ONE OF THE TRIUNE PARTS – ANY suggestion to the contrary is absolutely absurd and comes from a spirit of ANTICHRIST.
Any spirit that leads one away from the Word of God is a Spirit of ANTICHRIST. Humble obedience to the Word of God as presented to us in the Scriptures will ALWAYS provide ample warning to us to REJECT such deception outright
A love for the Word of God will enable us to resist the false teachers and their pernicious doctrines and thereby be saved from the coming Judgement by virtue of humble submission to his Word. Any teaching which is contrary to the Word of God leads to Hell.
2 Peter 2:21
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master (AS HAS KENNETH COPELAND AND OTHERS) who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
——————————————————————————–
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
“And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her
sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.’” (Rev 18:4 NKJV)
My only hope is that some will read it, heed it, and come out of these Latter Rain
revivals. There is no “new paradigm” as far as Christianity is concerned, just the same old narrow road that
leads to eternal life in Christ. No immortality or streets of gold on this side of heaven. Just the truth. The
Way, the Truth, and the Life – and that “old rugged cross”.
It comes as no surprise that we are in the midst of a terrible apostasy in these last days as we have
clearly been warned that it would come. It is still a little frightening that so many of God’s people today
could fall for the same old lie that first deceived Eve so many thousands of years ago.
“You shall be as gods.” The same old lie of Satan is the lie at the heart of the New Age Movement.
Even sadder is the fact that it is the same lie that the Latter Rain “prophets” and “apostles” of “Joel’s Army”
are putting forth today. You will become Christ – God on this earth. The heresy of Apotheosis. And yet
thousands of Christians are swallowing it – hook, line, and sinker.
The Church is trading her heavenly hope for an earthly delusion. Like those foolish virgins of the
parable, their lamps have run out of oil. What they perceive to be oil, “the anointing of the Holy Spirit”, is
instead a sensual counterfeit offered up by seducing spirits. This counterfeit anointing comes with a
counterfeit gospel of a false triumphalism that will lead to a New Age “Kingdom” under Anti-Christ. They
will accept Anti-Christ with open arms, perceiving him to be Christ, whom they mistakenly identify as the
“rider on the white horse” of Revelation chapter six verse two.
What is so desperately needed in the Church today is so desperately lacking – discernment.
Discernment to tell the Spirit of Christ from the ecumenical spirit of Antichrist. To discern the true anointing
from the false anointing, the true Christ from the Gnostic Anti-Christ of the Manifest Sons of God.
If you are participating in any of these Latter Rain revivals or churches today I urge you to turn back
to the Bible. Compare what you are hearing and seeing with what is recorded and portrayed in the scriptures.
“Test all things, hold fast to what is good.” Call the leadership into account for everything they say, or teach,
or do that does not line up with the word of God. If they refuse to repent – leave. Flee from the place and
don’t look back. “Remember Lot’s wife.” I know it can be hard to leave a church, especially if you have
family and close personal friends there. But if they will not hear you – leave them behind.
The Latter Rain prophets are right about one thing – doctrine divides. Truth separates the wheat from
the chaff. In the early Church the Apostles kept the deceivers and false apostles out. They did this by
publicly identifying the heretics and warning the sheep of their false doctrines. Because of the diligence of
the true apostles of our Lord, the false apostles and their followers were forced to leave the Church. The
Apostle John writes:
“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many
antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not
of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might
be made manifest, that none of them were of us.” (1 John 2:18,19 NKJV)
Today we face just the opposite situation in that the false prophets and apostles are in the majority in
many churches. When they gain inroads into a church it’s more likely that only a minority will reject their
false doctrines, revelations, and counterfeit “anointing” and stand on the Bible, being forced to go out from among them.
We must be able to identify the Holy Spirit of God from the counterfeit spirit(s) that have invaded the Church. The video by Andrew Strom goes part of the way towards documenting some of the spiritual disease that has culminated from a willingness to seek after false spirits and be guided by them.
Apostasty has rendered people open to the Delusion that God has sent to test FAITHFULNESS to HIS Word and the consequences are evident to those of us being lead by the Holy Spirit.
I REPEAT
The Church is trading her heavenly hope for an earthly delusion. Like those foolish virgins of the parable, their lamps have run out of oil.
What they perceive to be oil, “the anointing of the Holy Spirit”, is
instead a sensual counterfeit offered up by seducing spirits.
This counterfeit anointing comes with a
counterfeit gospel of a false triumphalism that will lead to a New Age “Kingdom” under Anti-Christ.
They have accepted false teachers and their pernicious teachings and they will accept Anti-Christ with open arms, perceiving him to be Christ, whom they mistakenly identify as the
“rider on the white horse” of Revelation chapter six verse two.
What is so desperately needed in the Church today is so desperately lacking – discernment.
Discernment to tell the Spirit of Christ from the ecumenical spirit of Antichrist. To discern the true anointing
from the false anointing, the true Christ from the Gnostic Anti-Christ of the Manifest Sons of God.
FOR THE TRULY BORN AGAIN BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIAN FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST THIS DISCERNMENT IS ABSOLUTELY BIBLE BASED.
Your feelings, thoughts, opinions and testimony and whatever spirit is leading you away from the Word of God must NEVER be allowed to SUPERCEDE THE WORD OF GOD (The BIBLE) as this leads to ETERNAL DAMNATION.
Amen, Gary Simpson, so very true and well said..
And I agree also that it is both the Holy Spirit and the scriptures that testify about Jesus, not the other way around.
Jhn 5:39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
Jhn 15:26 “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
Quote:
Any foundation other than that provided by Scripture is sinking sand and MUST be rejected by those who will remain faithful to HIM until the very end. Only those who remain faithful to HIS Word until the very end will be saved.
Unquote.
Wayne, the scriptures actually talk about Jesus, and the apostles and prophets as being the foundation we are to build on, not the scriptures themselves – and not just the scriptures they wrote, but their lives and testimonies.. The house that was solid and secure was built on the rock, ie, Jesus Christ, the Son of God Himself. The bible does not talk about itself anywhere as being the rock or foundation.
Stop and think a minute – why did Jesus say, “My sheep know my VOICE, and the voice of a stranger they will not follow..” ?
Wayne…sorry, just to add to my post, don’t forget that Jesus Himself told the Pharisees they would not be saved by the scriptures – in direct contradiction to your statement I quoted above.
Jhn 5:39-40 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
Watchfull, False religion is everywhere. The only way to know the truth is by being faithful to HIS word. Apostasy, Disobedience, Rebellion, Pride all come from a refusal to take the Word of God for what it is ” The Word of God.” When God has spoken how dare we act as Satan did when trying to deceive Eve, by posing the question “Did God really say that.” Repent of your waywardness and humbly seek out the Will of God before it is too late. Judgement is coming to the apostate as well as those who have NEVER known the Truth.
The following scripture teaching reinforces the urgency of HIS expectation of faithfulness to HIS Word. I urge you to accept HIS plan for redemtion before it is too late.
“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” Jude 3-4
There are two types of “Christians” in the churches today: (1) Those who profess to believe the Bible, yet only obey that which they want to obey based on personal preference, bias, convenience, etc.; and (2) those who believe the Bible and seek diligently to obey all that Jesus commanded to New Testament believers. The group that picks and chooses what to obey and what not to obey must find like minded pickers and choosers who pick and choose what they pick and choose–thus, you have many denominations/groups of like-minded pickers and choosers. It is terribly hard to get anyone to leave their group. The only way is to get them to pick and choose different things, or become one of the believers who just seek to obey all Jesus taught through his Word. This faith and practice will be the same as that which the apostles handed to the first century churches.
I have found that those who obey all the New Testament are a small minority, but usually have wonderful fellowship, godly homes, and peace with God. I want to be in this group.
“ALL THINGS”
The commission Jesus gave to the church was to teach the gospel, baptize the believers, and then teach them to observe all things that Jesus commanded (Matt. 28:19,20). Most modern churches don’t take this serious. The apostles taught the first century church to observe Jesus’ commands. Many of the commands and teachings the apostles taught the first century churches are now not being taught or observed in churches today — while a horde of beliefs and practices, which are not from the apostles are being taught and practiced! We see this as nothing else but disobedience: a rejection of Jesus as LORD, and a rejection of the Bible as our sole authority for faith and practice. The apostle Paul told the churches (which includes us) three very important principles:
#1. We don’t have the right or permission to change what the apostles taught the first century churches.
2 Thess. 2:15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Thess. 3:6,7 ” Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
Romans 16:17,18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
#2 We are to follow the apostles and use them as a ruler to measure other teachers’ credibility. We are not to be so proud as to think we can improve on the apostles.
Phil. 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (I Cor. 11:1 also).
Phil. 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
I Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
#3 Those who changed what the apostles taught were grievous wolves. Any change to the apostolic pattern is a perversion. What we today are teaching and observing is either APOSTOLIC or from a GRIEVOUS WOLF.
Acts 20:29-31 “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”
Gal. 1:8,9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Jude 3,4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Romanists try from this foundation to argue for “oral tradition”, thus excusing their additions to the Word, however, I believe A.R. Fausset said it well when commenting on I Cor. 11:1,2: “Romanists argue hence for oral traditions. The difficulty is to know what is genuine apostolic tradition intended for all ages. Any that can be proved to be such ought to be observed; any that cannot, ought to be rejected (Rev. 22:18). Those preserved in the written Word alone can be proved to be such.”
“THE PHILOSOPHY”
In order not to be deceived, the Word of God must be the SOLE AUTHORITY in our lives. In order for it to be the sole authority, we must surrender our will to it, and obey it without preferring one thing above another.
I Tim. 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.”
John tells us that if everything were written about Jesus’ life that could be written, the world could not contain the books. So, we see God hand picked what he wanted in the relatively small New Testament that we have. The Holy Spirit made no mistakes. If God saw it as important enough to include, so must we.
No matter how small the matter may seem to you, if you pick and choose in any area, then YOU become the authority, and not the Bible. You then become a “hearer” and not a “doer” in that one area, and this leads to self deception.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Matt. 7:21-27. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:….and it fell not:….And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:….and great was the fall of it.
All deception is because the Bible loses its rightful place of sole authority, and you have stepped in and become the authority by picking and choosing what to obey, and what to throw out. If you have some experience, or read of someone else’s, and proceed to interpret the Bible according to that experience, then the experience becomes an authority. You must allow the Bible to interpret any experience, not use the experience to interpret the Bible. You must be willing to hold to what the Bible actually SAYS over and above all your theological training, presuppositions, etc. You must bow to what God’s revelation states in its proper context even if it means loved ones will be in hell or “unsaved”, etc.
I repeat, no matter how small or large the matter may seem to you, if you pick and choose in any area, you are offending God, and heading for deception! God’s Word alone must be the authority — that means no adding, and no subtracting! If we add, then the church excommunicates for wrong reasons. If we subtract, then the church multiplies unbiblically. If we don’t add, and don’t subtract; then we have proper multiplication, and proper division.
Who had all truth?
Jesus made it clear, as we will see later in the study, that to believe in him was to hear and obey him. Before Jesus died, rose, and ascended He gave the Apostles and disciples definite instructions as to what his plans were for his church. Additionally, He said He had many other things to tell them, but they couldn’t receive them yet. However, he said, the Holy Spirit will come and “guide you into all truth”.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
It is clear that the Apostles had “all truth” when they wrote the Scriptures and made decisions for the life of the church after the Holy Ghost descended upon them at Pentecost. It is also vital to note that the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, which refers to all the doctrine he taught, was ONCE FOR ALL delivered to the saints; and that we are to EARNESTLY CONTEND FOR THAT FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE DELIVERED UNTO THE SAINTS.
God’s truth may be progressively growing in your mind, but the FAITH, or doctrine of God’s Word is not growing and changing! It was ONCE delivered to the saints, and we are to contend for THAT faith, and only that faith, which was ONCE delivered to the saints. “The saints” refers to the Apostles. The Apostles are the saints who received “ALL TRUTH” from the Holy Spirit, and thus all the New Testament books are considered authoritative because they were written or endorsed by the Apostles. For instance: Mark was a companion of Peter and Paul, who endorsed his Gospel to be correct.
Ephesians 2:20 tells us that the church is built on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, with Jesus the chief corner stone. The book of Revelation pictures the New Jerusalem, which is symbolic of the church, having twelve foundations, which are the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.
So we see that all true doctrine was known and taught by the apostles. There is no new truth or revelations being given today to the church. AMEN TO THAT!!!!!
We are not to contend for any modern doctrines, or practices; but only contend for the FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS. This FAITH for which we are to contend was already delivered, and considered a past transaction when Jude wrote his book. God used circumstances to cause the Apostles to write GOSPELS and EPISTLES by the leading and power of the Holy Spirit, so that all the necessary oral preaching and teaching would also be written, so we in later generations would know the “all truth” that God gave to the saints, and not have to rely on the uncertain foundation of oral tradition. “Churchmen” have always liked to overcomplicate matters so the people feel completely dependent on them for guidance. If they convince the people that higher education, theological training, “secret knowledge”, etc. is necessary to understand the Word of God; then they can maintain their power over the common people. They have in the past kept the Word of God out of the common language; but now they just try to convince people that they cannot understand the Bible. Well, the way many try to explain it, I am not surprised people cannot understand it.
Well said, watchful
The church today, too often teaches that salvation is the result of a prayer, instead of salvation being the result of having the life of Jesus in us.
Jesus said in John 10:10
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
The apostle John said in 1 John 5:12-13,
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
When the Son of God lives in us by His Spirit, we won’t have a problem with spiritual discernment. When you know the real Spirit, you have no problem recognizing the counterfeit, and they have no problem recognizing you. More importantly, when the real Spirit lives within you, He has no problem recognizing, and dealing with a counterfeit spirit.
The problem with most of the professing Christians today is that they are spiritually dead. The reason that there is no discernment is that there is no Spirit within them. They have left their first love, and are totally void of the life of Jesus. They are simply goats who have been deceived into believing that they are sheep.
It is not hard to pick out the goats from the sheep. You just need to listen to what they don’t say. It is what they don’t talk about that gives them away, because they can’t talk about something that they don’t have (the Spirit).
From the time that you come alive spiritually, you just want to share with others what the Spirit of God is doing in your life. It is an exciting, supernatural life, and dominates your being. The word abundant, sometimes does not do it justice.
Now, go back and look at the past posts in this forum. Look and see (1) who avoids talking about the Holy Spirit; see (2) who may simply be giving lip service to the Holy Spirit, and see (3) whose life is so dominated by the Holy Spirit that they continually honor Him with their testimony.
It is impossible to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and to walk in the Holy Spirit, and to have the Holy Spirit putting to death the misdeeds of the body, and not to have your mouth testifying to the marvelous work that He is doing in your life. As He accomplishes His marvelous work in your life, He is faithful to glorify the Son (Jesus), and to fulfill in our life, all of the righteous requirements of the Law.
Remember, if the Spirit of God is alive and well within you,
1- your mouth can not help but declare His truth, and His marvelous works in your life.
2- His words placed in your mouth will glorify the Son (Jesus)
3- Your testimony will point others to the Bible as God’s standard of righteousness and truth.
4- He will give you wisdom (spiritual discernment) beyond your years
Question?
Is the Spirit of God really alive in you?
Is Jesus really living in you by His Holy Spirit?
Or,
Are you simply a goat, pretending to be a sheep?
Remember, many are called, but few are chosen.
Matt 7:14 says, 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Is your life really abundant, or in reality, are you spiritually dead?
Wayne wrote:
Jesus made it clear, as we will see later in the study, that to believe in him was to hear and obey him.
Comment:
What kind of a study are we participating in Wayne?
Is Wayne a real person with a brain, who can think and write for himself, or is Wayne a person who simply selects portions of other peoples studies to respond with, or is Wayne….? What is going on?
I will take the time to read what you believe and say, but I have no time to read everything that you find written else where that are simply other peoples opinions.
If you expect us to read and take interest in what you post, make sure that your posts are your own creation, and not plagiarized from someone elses study.
I sincerely hope that my suspicions are wrong, but your post leads one to wonder.
If I am wrong, I apologize, and please forgive me?
Quote:
False religion is everywhere. The only way to know the truth is by being faithful to HIS word. Apostasy, Disobedience, Rebellion, Pride all come from a refusal to take the Word of God for what it is ” The Word of God.” When God has spoken how dare we act as Satan did when trying to deceive Eve, by posing the question “Did God really say that.” Repent of your waywardness and humbly seek out the Will of God before it is too late. Judgment is coming to the apostate as well as those who have NEVER known the Truth.
Unquote.
Dear brother Wayne, first of all you’re making a lot of wrong assumptions about me and those who don’t serve the dead letter. You wrongly accuse of being apostate and of cherry-picking the scriptures. You’re simply incorrect in those assumptions. There is a fine line between the idolatry of the scriptures that the Pharisees were in bondage to and simply accepting the scriptures as being God-breathed (in their original form) and unable to be broken, as I do, and I’m sure others. You can see for example that I use the scriptures to back up my point of view.
You are also incorrect in saying that the only way to know the truth and escape judgment is through His word (scriptures). My true testimony is that Jesus shepherded me out of the apostate churches a few years before I understood the reason why from the bible. I found myself following HIM, with much perplexity and trepidation, and not the scriptures at this junction. It was only later that He began to cleanse me of wrong doctrine and open the scriptures to me, restoring me to a pure gospel. We are not in danger from not “knowing” the truth, we are in danger if we don’t “love” it, or we would have to call God unjust. It’s more a matter of our hearts before Him than our mental knowledge, might be another way of putting it. We walk by faith not by sight, amen? And the scriptures do not spell out the mind of God and His requirements to us – truth is like buried treasure, it has to be revealed by the Holy Spirit, or it is not truth but only the dead letter which kills. Ours is a living relationship with a risen and living Saviour and the Father and His living Spirit.
Let me ask the following question, and please don’t gloss over it, but think about it a minute and I would please ask for your answer: Which passage of scripture was it that the serpent threw doubt into when talking with Eve in the garden?
Gary, I think Wayne is arguing with a dead letter, whether his or someone else’s, and not his living word. Someone else busted him on cutting and pasting articles a little while back and he has yet to acknowledge or explain his actions – I wonder if he even has bothered to read our posts..It reads to me like a cult-like deception, either that or such great fear of being deceived he doesn’t dare engage in the conversation. Wayne, is anybody home?
When I was a little girl growing up, my mother used to have televangelists on all the time. I think my grandmother and she used to send them donations for prayer cloths. They promised wealth, prosperity, healing, and so forth. Prayer chain letters would come in the mail. To the unbeliever that looks like a whole lot. But for the believer it is sad to see how one can be deceived. Yet the scriptures teach that we are not to judge the Lord’s servant. {He knows who is a christian and who is not.}
We can see a person’s actions but we do not know what is going on in the heart. Jesus said that he needed not that any testify to him because HE knew what was in the heart of all men.
We can discern but let’s leave judging to the Lord. And
“Judgment must begin at the house of God.”
Lucille
If that was meant for me, I’m not condemning anyone Lucille – just wondering out loud what is going on with Wayne – it’s a very bizarre feeling to be conversing with someone who it turns out is talking through ‘pre-recorded messages’. Makes me feel like I’ve been strung along..it also resembles cults that feed their members the “party line” and pre-rehearsed statements.
Praise God, that’s just what I needed to read right now. I’m currently in central Bahia, Brazil with my family but all I keep hearing from God is ‘your time is not yet’! I was beginning to wonder why He brought me out here to live in a village that is 10km from the nearest internet connection and off the beaten track. I had also planned to meet up with William Lau of the Elijah Challenge this week thinking that it would help me kick start things here but God closed the door on that too. So it looks like I’ll just have to stay put in this isolated place surronded with rivers and waterfalls and just wait, though I’ll need as much prayer as possible because I certainly don’t want to become complacent in these final days.
Bless you Andrew for that timely message.
Hi Guys, Sorry, I’ve been “in transit” back home to NZ for my annual leave so haven’t been able to read the latest comments until now.
Wow… All I can say is that I agree with “Gary Simpson” and “watchful” and that I’ve been very confused with “Wayne’s” appearingly “random” and “irrational” and “condemnatory” comments towards “Gary Simpson” and myself.
I personally just want to state that from my observation of “Gary Simpson” and “watchful” over the time I’ve been on the forum I can tell that in their hearts they really love our Lord Jesus Christ and are desirous to serve Him with their whole hearts. I picked this up in my spirit early on.
When I see someone who is desirous to please the Lord, I often feel led to challenge them on areas which I perceive He hasn’t yet given them understanding on because I can see that their hearts are open and teachable or that it will be a blessing to so engage with them in this way. I have seen both “Gary Simpson” and “watchful” respond with a heart which shows me that they are open to growing in the Lord and moving on with Him.
I have endeavoured to ask “Wayne” some questions also but to date “Wayne” has not answered any of my questions. Whatever “Wayne” has said to me – before I flew home to NZ from Manila – I have endeavoured to honestly answer.
I am an open book. I am happy to answer anyone’s questions about what I believe. I have not hidden anything which the Lord has given me a peace to share in the time to date in which I’ve been a part of this website and as long as the Moderators and Andrew Strom are happy for me to answer any question which any other poster may want to ask me then I am happy to answer it. I have nothing to hide.
If “Wayne” – and it appears from what “Gary Simpson” is saying above – has called me a heretic then I too would like “Wayne” to justify his position.
My testimony of what the Lord has done in my life to date is all over this website in the Members area and in this area. I do not take any of it back. It is what the Lord has accomplished in my life to date and I receive no glory for it. It is not my work it is His work. I will not lie about what the Lord has done in my life and I will give Him the glory for what He has done even if it costs me my life. I love the Lord and I live for His glory and I don’t live for any praise from man because it is empty and meaningless.
The Pharisees accused Jesus of having a demon and Jesus responded that many things would be forgiven men but that He who spoke a word against the Holy Spirit – Whom Jesus was filled with – that sin would not be forgiven in this lifetime or the next.
To permanently, continuously and unapologetically attribute the work of the Holy Spirit – not what people think is the work of the Holy Spirit but what is the work of the Holy Spirit – to the devil is the unpardonable sin according to Jesus.
Stephen – one of my favourite characters in the new testament – was martyred for so demonstrating the fullness of the Holy Spirit that those who were not filled just couldn’t handle to have him around in more. We must be careful to discern the Lord’s body in our brothers and sisters so that we do not eat and drink condemnation upon ourselves.<