A.W TOZER – The “DRASTIC RADICALS” NEEDED
Great industrial concerns have in their employ men who are needed only when there is a breakdown somewhere. When something goes wrong with the machinery, these men spring into action to locate and remove the trouble and get the machinery rolling again.
For these men a smoothly operating system has no interest. They
are specialists concerned with trouble and how to find and correct it.
In the Kingdom of God things are not too different. God has always
had His specialists whose chief concern has been the moral
breakdown, the decline in the spiritual health of the nation or the
Church. Such men were Elijah, Jeremiah, Malachi, and others of
their kind who appeared at critical moments in history to reprove,
rebuke, and exhort in the name of God and righteousness.
A thousand or ten thousand ordinary priests or pastors or teachers
could labor quietly on, almost unnoticed, while the spiritual life
of Israel or the Church was normal. But let the people of God go
astray from the paths of truth, and immediately the specialist
appeared almost out of nowhere. His instinct for trouble brought
him to the help of the Lord and of Israel.
Such a man was likely to be drastic, radical, possibly at times
violent, and the curious crowd that gathered to watch him work
soon branded him as extreme, fanatical, negative. And in a sense
they were right. He was single-minded, severe, fearless, as these
were the qualities the circumstances demanded. He shocked
some, frightened others, and alienated not a few, but he knew
Who had called him and what he was sent to do. His ministry
was geared to the emergency, and that fact marked him out as
different, a man apart.
To such men as this the Church owes a debt too heavy to pay.
The curious thing is She seldom tries to pay him while he lives,
but the next generation builds his sepulcher and writes his
biography, as if instinctively and awkwardly to discharge an
obligation the previous generation to a large extent ignored.
Such a man as this is not an easy companion. The professional
evangelist who leaves the wrought-up meeting as soon as it ends
to hurry over to the most expensive restaurant to feast and crack
jokes with his sponsors will find this man something of an
embarrassment, for he cannot turn off the burden of the Holy Ghost
as one would turn off a faucet. He insists upon being a Christian
all the time, everywhere; and again, that marks him out as different.
Toward him it is impossible to be neutral. His acquaintances are
divided pretty neatly into two classes, those who love him with all
admiration, and those who hate him with perfect hatred!…
-SOURCE: “Why Revival Tarries” by Leonard Ravenhill. -One of
the best books you will ever read.
Tozer had good spiritiual insight and understanding. It would seem he knew what he was talking about from first-hand experience.
I have seen and experienced the same things and am glad to have another confirmation from the Lord that I am on the right path.
Thank you, Andrew, for hosting this site. May God continue to bless your ministries.
Pastor Wayne
You rang!!!
I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist the temptation to respond in such an idiotic way, but seeing that the article languished without a comment, I decided to become the fool. While pondering the decision to break the ice and jump into the ice cold water, the short introduction kept bringing a warm smile on my face and a chuckle in my heart.
Like so many of you, this one has not only fallen on the Rock, but has gone through the grist mill of God where the Rock seemingly has ground him to powder. Therefore what I have to say is not foolishness, but it is the Sword of God that is tempered in the sanctifying Blood of Jesus Christ, the Word of God. For the Spirit and Water and the Blood and are One witness in the dust of the earth for a testimony of the Love of God and they can be separated from the New Covenant Word of God in the sanctifying and satisfying Communion Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. It is the intellectual foolishness of proud men that makes the Word of God of no effect in the lives of God’s people, and leaves the Words of the Power of the universe, Who created all things, as empty symbols. Jesus says: My Doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me. Hear God’s Word of power and truth from Scripture, Deuteronomy 18 verse 15 thru 19.) Yahweh thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto Me; unto Him you shall hearken; and I will put My Words in His mouth, and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him. And it shall come to pass that whosoever will not hearken unto My Words which He shall speak in My Name, I will require it of him (This is a powerful warning and how foolish it would be for one to hear and not believe that Prophet Jesus Christ, for there is none other where by a man can be saved).
There are a lot of buts, but all those buts are not answerable here. I invite all who are thirsty and hunger for the righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ to stop by and to taste and see if what is presented is holy to the Lord and His people. For those who have a discerning heart, there are a number of visionary dreams that express the truth of our fellowship with the Lord and the strength that He gives to His living members.
In His service and yours,
Glenn http://www.excellent-valley.org/Communion/
The articles says>>>>
“Such a man was likely to be drastic, radical, possibly at times
violent, and the curious crowd that gathered to watch him work
soon branded him as extreme, fanatical, negative. And in a sense
they were right. He was single-minded, severe, fearless, as these
were the qualities the circumstances demanded. He shocked
some, frightened others, and alienated not a few, but he knew
Who had called him and what he was sent to do. His ministry
was geared to the emergency, and that fact marked him out as
different, a man apart.
To such men as this the Church owes a debt too heavy to pay.
The curious thing is She seldom tries to pay him while he lives,
but the next generation builds his sepulcher and writes his
biography, as if instinctively and awkwardly to discharge an
obligation the previous generation to a large extent ignored.”
This topic has been broached several times on this new forum. Most have talked around it, sidestepped it, and in general, have ignore the topic JUST AS MUCH as most would ignore the man who has been sent!
So many will agree with the above words UNTIL the person they speak about actually shows up. Then this person is labeled, harsh, unloving, has a wrong spirit, mean, false, a deceiver, and even so far as heretic!
When will we learn? If a word, an article, a paragraph, etc offends us, do we ask God what is wrong with US or do we attack the writer?
Do we check and see if what is being said is scripturally accurate as far as GOD is concerned (not what we think but what GOD thinks) or do we find ways of discounting the man/woman or in some way believe or claim he/she is spouting heresy or false doctrine or has a wrong spirit so we do not have to listen to what he/she says?
a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk
I miss the postings of Dave Larsen…
Job’s Desolate Comforters
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 6/23/10
Feeling desolate,
Are Job’s comforters,
Hating the imbued,
Slinging barbed arrows!
Their world of accusation,
Not sublime: slime!
Their harsh condemnation,
Bad time, bad rhyme!
Feeling in-filled,
And at peace,
Not Job’s comforters,
Young Elihu sees!
Let Elihu speak,
And teach all: The Way!
Job’s comforters next,
In whom has God’s sway.
Each of us on course,
For God’s indwelling,
Once Job’s comforters,
Cease and desist selling.
Selling compound lies that,
They know the mind of God all,
‘Fess up: We’re rigid righteous!
God: flexible, and us: small!
Once learnt: God is flexible,
And does precisely as He chooses,
The proud rigid turn around,
Thus, flexibly imbued: who loses?
Who loses,
Are the yet unyielding rigid,
Who for now,
Remain, un-warmed by light, frigid.
BRING ON THE PROPHETS WHETHER THEY WANT TO HEAR OR NOT. AS THE YHWH TOLD SAMUEL, EVERY ONE WILL KNOW HE IS A PROPHET,( WHEN AND IF NONE OF HIS WORDS WHICH HE SPEAKS FALLS TO THE GROUND) WHETHER THEY HATE HIM, WHETHER THE ADMIT IT OR NOT.
THOSE WHO BELONG TO THE FATHER WILL TAKE HEED AND REPENT AND BE PURIFIED AND MADE WHITE. GLORY GLORY GLORY THE THE LORD OF THE HEAVENLY ARMIES, WHO IS MIGHTY IN BATTLE.
They are coming Ruth.
Real ones. And they will BRING GOD’s Judgment.
Isa 1:24 Therefore says the Lord, the Lord of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will appease Myself on My adversaries and avenge Myself on My enemies.
Isa 1:25 And I will bring My hand again upon you and thoroughly purge away your dross [as with lye] and take away all your tin or alloy.
Isa 1:26 And I will restore your judges as at the first, and your counselors as at the beginning; afterward you shall be called the City of Righteousness, the Faithful City.
Do not think this refers to Israel alone. This was spoken of for our own day!
a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk
Do prophets sent by the Lord need to justify or defend themselves? Do they constantly lambast everybody all the time, or only those who’s hearts are wrong before the Lord? Do they have a “gentle correction” gear, or do they only run in “over-drive rebuke” whether it’s needed or not? These are some of the questions I’m sometimes constrained to ponder.
Watchful,
It depends. God sends them to give a message for HIS OWN PURPOSES. Individually, a prophet can be as loving and kind as anyone. Speaking for the Lord, they can only speak His Words in the Manner HE determines.
The Prophet is the Message. He lives it, breathes it. It is his life.
I wonder how many consider why the prophet “lambasts” as you said? Perhaps the hearers NEED to hear what is being said.
Have you considered that?
The Prophet is a hammer and is not subtle in most cases. Perhaps you should read Art Katz’s book, The Propehtic Call. It can help us all to see more clearly.
a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk
If any would like the book, write me at bndslavenchrist@aol.com
It’s my understanding that a prophet with this kind of ministry was sent to warn the apostate. He was never sent to rebuke the remnant who hadn’t bent their knee to Baal. As far as I can remember they never, never, ever, sought to justify themselves or call attention to their calling. Now that I think of it, that would be more along the lines of how the leaders of the apostate church conduct themselves, would you agree?
Yes Watchful.
The only hesitancy I would throw out there is if the remnant were living like Lot, in the middle of Sodom. Notice, Lot’s wife, one with him, was drawn back to the world of Sodom and was destroyed because of it.
Also, the people who were listening to John the Baptist, heard him speak to the Pharisees. Doesn’t necessarily mean it was for them, but they heard it anyway.
No true prophet points to anyone EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST. They may use themselves as an example, but will always point to Jesus as the ONLY WAY! They may even explain themselves, but the message always remains the same, no matter what they are speaking of.
Just a thought. Do we have any idea how many are apostate today? (or at least falling away)
Does the word MOST apply?
Yes.
a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk
Not every “harsh” word is from God either, of course.
Neither every “harsh” speaker.
True Andrew.
However, if we take offense at something that is said or written, then we are NOT following the Holy Spirit but rather the flesh.
NO ONE who is led by the Holy spirit will take offense at something another says or writes. They will either agree with it or reject it as unscriptural.
a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk
Dude, it is the professional evangalist who turns off the flow of The Holy Spirit as soon as he is not performing on stage and making money, power or control that is the guy that is not an easy companion.
If I was springing into action to fix the flow of The Holy Spirit in a giant industry, then my business improvement report would read a bit like the flow of The Holy Spirit is influenced by the operator’s stewardship and relationship with God. Said profession evangalist should be sacked immediately as a warning to other operators who are trying to put a tap on the flow of The Holy Spirit to make the flow of The Spirit serve themselves and take advantage of God.
God would like pastors that want their own ministries to come to Him. These are the kind of operators the industry needs.
These operators have had two thousand years to get it right and The Holy Spirit still does not flow in Christ’s ministry like God wants it too. I doubt that these clowns could get a sepulcher right anyway.
To quote “Superman Returns”… “The human heart is subject to monstrous deceits.”
KING SELF MUST DIE!
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 2006
King Self held court one imperious day
Self said, Hear ye, agree to all I say!
Came reply,
Self must die!
Said something hid out of the way.
How dare you counter my royal command?
Nothing stops great Selves from being grand!
Do not lie!
Self must die!
Said the spirit in stern reprimand.
Anything but die!
Said Self in reply,
How can
Mere man
Kill his lovely I?
Eagles help do it,
They take Self thru’ it:
Getting in
Ripping sin
‘til your heart’s renewed!
You win, said Self
To sin I’m deaf
How know
I go?
My plans I shelf.
The spirit said, Great greetings!
Prepare now for faith meetings
With saints gone before
And angels of lore
And Him who has best seating!
You may think this odd
But to live in you God
Must be!
You see?
To finish Creation’s job.
Now all must be done
Becoming in sum:
Good,
Would
God’s new kingdom come!
Hi Guys i do not understand ?
Why are we crying out for new great prophets?
Am I simply misunderstanding the context of the word “prophet”
Do we mean some one who expounds, preaches, teaches the Word of God, or are we looking for someone who stands, and in the name of God pronounces a word of future gloom or blessing? If the latter, then what is inadequate, with the greatest Prophet of all time who now lives in us by the holy Spirit..that we must look for new.”great prophets”
The prophetic spiritual gifts i hear every week, in the church, are always scriptural, edifying, encouraging, exciting . and the overriding context is. Stand fast, preach the Word to the lost, for the end is near, time is short, Jesus will return – soon. And my suspicion is, that in the born again church from Pentecost to today it has always been so and will be so ’till that great day,
#
Bondslave wrote
:The articles says>>>>
Such a “man was likely to be drastic, radical, possibly at times……….To such men as this the Church owes a debt too heavy to pay.”.
Bondslave I like you post! Forgive me. With your permission let me indulge a little and edit the lines above and keep the rest?
“Such a man is indeed drastic, radical, at times……To such a man as this the Church and all man-kind owe a debt they can never repay.”.
His name is Jesus! He now lives in us.!! we should all “confess” Him. (speak the same as He).
Pr Michael
I HAVE A THOUGHT, I WONDER IF ALL OF THE ARGUING ON HOW THE MESSAGE IS SPOKEN, SOMTIMES GETS IN THE WAY OF JUST LISTENING TO THE WORDS OF THE MESSAGE, NO MATTER HOW THEY ARE SPOKEN OR WHETHER ONE EVEN PARTICULARLY CARES FOR THE VESSEL THAT MAY BE CHOSEN TO UTTER THEM.
THERE HAVE BEEN MANY TIMES WERE I HAVE BEEN PERSONALLY REBUKED AND TO BE TOTALLY HONEST AND TRANSPARANT, DID NOT LIKE THE PERSON OR THE WAY THEY SAID IT, HOWEVER WHEN I GOT ALONE LATER, I WOULD BE LED TO MEDITATE AND GO OVER JUST THE MESSAGE OR REBUKE THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME, AND MORE OFTEN THAN I WOULD CARE TO ADMIT, WAS LED TO REPENT, FOR THE MESSAGE WAS TRUE. SO AGAIN I SAY BRING ON THE PROPHETS LORD, FOR WE ARE DESPERATE FOR A SHARP TWO EDGED SWORD, TOO CIRCUMCISE THESE OFTEN HARD CALLOUSED HEARTS OF OURS.
ISAIAH 26 of the world learn righteousness.
10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
THANKYOU ABBA FOR CORRECTION, AND THANKYOU THAT I AM YOUR DAUGHTER.
Many believers who have been given some kind of a leadership role in His church have become quite knowledgeable and successful in their ministries over the years. They might even have experienced a time of trying and testing in the wilderness.
However, even as sophisticated leader a believer must realize that at any moment the Lord might teach him something new, something that could turn out to be the greatest challenge so far in his ministry.
The Leaders of the Last Days
This is a Word to encourage all of you who are seeking a new level in their walk with Jesus. Would you like a challenge…? Are you willing to “jump”…? Are you ready for the “first harvest”…?
After I had asked the Lord to show me what it will take in the future for believers to effectively do His work, this is what He spoke to me:
“Many have walked on the ‘leading edge’ and I chose to do some of My work; but this is a new season, a final call before the great day of the trumpet. There will be no more ‘leading edge’ for I am going to cause you to jump off the edge. Yes, by faith, uncompromising faith, you must trust Me and jump! And as you leave the old ways behind, opening and renewing your mind, you will know that I am doing a new, a final thing.
“But before you jump you must take off your shoes, for behold, after I will catch you, I am going to set your feet on a truly solid ground; and I will give you new shoes that you must walk in. Shoes that will lead and empower you for good works.
“You will walk in the anointing and in the light of My righteousness. You will walk and not faint. You will walk with boldness and authority. You will surely trample on demons and serpents. You will walk on a strait and narrow path; the path that I, the Lord your God, have prepared for you.
“These are the days of the first harvest, My harvest. For I, Myself, am bringing into My house a people, selected and equipped for war. They will walk and talk in the Spirit, and with great power. They will be My road-crew, making a way in the desert; a strait road to Jerusalem. They will prepare the coming of the Lord, and they will bring in the great second harvest of many souls.”
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
1. “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her
sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.’” (Rev 18:4 NKJV)
My only hope is that some will read it, heed it, and come out of these Latter Rain
revivals. There is no “new paradigm” as far as Christianity is concerned, just the same old narrow road that
leads to eternal life in Christ. No immortality or streets of gold on this side of heaven. Just the truth. The
Way, the Truth, and the Life – and that “old rugged cross”.
It comes as no surprise that we are in the midst of a terrible apostasy in these last days as we have
clearly been warned that it would come. It is still a little frightening that so many of God’s people today
could fall for the same old lie that first deceived Eve so many thousands of years ago.
“You shall be as gods.” The same old lie of Satan is the lie at the heart of the New Age Movement.
Even sadder is the fact that it is the same lie that the Latter Rain “prophets” and “apostles” of “Joel’s Army”
are putting forth today. You will become Christ – God on this earth. The heresy of Apotheosis. And yet
thousands of Christians are swallowing it – hook, line, and sinker.
The Church is trading her heavenly hope for an earthly delusion. Like those foolish virgins of the
parable, their lamps have run out of oil. What they perceive to be oil, “the anointing of the Holy Spirit”, is
instead a sensual counterfeit offered up by seducing spirits. This counterfeit anointing comes with a
counterfeit gospel of a false triumphalism that will lead to a New Age “Kingdom” under Anti-Christ. They
will accept Anti-Christ with open arms, perceiving him to be Christ, whom they mistakenly identify as the
“rider on the white horse” of Revelation chapter six verse two.
What is so desperately needed in the Church today is so desperately lacking – discernment.
Discernment to tell the Spirit of Christ from the ecumenical spirit of Antichrist. To discern the true anointing
from the false anointing, the true Christ from the Gnostic Anti-Christ of the Manifest Sons of God.
If you are participating in any of these Latter Rain revivals or churches today I urge you to turn back
to the Bible. Compare what you are hearing and seeing with what is recorded and portrayed in the scriptures.
“Test all things, hold fast to what is good.” Call the leadership into account for everything they say, or teach,
or do that does not line up with the word of God. If they refuse to repent – leave. Flee from the place and
don’t look back. “Remember Lot’s wife.” I know it can be hard to leave a church, especially if you have
family and close personal friends there. But if they will not hear you – leave them behind.
The Latter Rain prophets are right about one thing – doctrine divides. Truth separates the wheat from
the chaff. In the early Church the Apostles kept the deceivers and false apostles out. They did this by
publicly identifying the heretics and warning the sheep of their false doctrines. Because of the diligence of
the true apostles of our Lord, the false apostles and their followers were forced to leave the Church. The
Apostle John writes:
“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many
antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not
of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might
be made manifest, that none of them were of us.” (1 John 2:18,19 NKJV)
Today we face just the opposite situation in that the false prophets and apostles are in the majority in many churches. When they gain inroads into a church it’s more likely that only a minority will reject their
false doctrines, revelations, and counterfeit “anointing” and stand on the Bible, being forced to go out from them
2 Corinthians 6:17 (King James Version)
17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
Ruth Farley, I can’t speak for your experience of course, but I do know there is a fine line between a simple honest rebuke and spiritual abuse. I was on the receiving end of such abuse for several years by a friend of mine and kept grappling with whether this kind of behaviour was of God, before the Lord finally opened my eyes and showed me the person’s problem. It doesn’t matter whether they are even ‘correct’ or not in what they say about you – if it stems from presumption, it is abusive and harmful and they end up coming between you and the Lord. With my friend, I began to realize that when I was with her I began to miss and long for Jesus. Without realizing it she was setting herself up as God in my life. As soon as I put some distance between me and her, the Lord began to minister and speak to me and move me forward in Him again and that’s when He showed me her problem. It’s not hard for someone to see the faults of others and call them on it, that doesn’t even take a prophetic gifiting (lol) but it’s much harder to see our own, likewise many presumptuous ‘prophets’. Does that mean to write them off? No, I don’t think so, I pray for such ones to receive the ministry and healing of the Lord for their particular problem, who doesn’t have problems of some kind? But I won’t let them abuse me any more. That’s exactly what goes on in the Nicolaitan churches.
Good points Watchful.
Michael, I think about what you saying too, in the past there were only a few that God raised up to bring revival, but is that really the pattern He wants for new covenant believers, or was that His gracious concession because the church has largely been “Nicolaitan” for most of the past 2000 years. I really believe His plans for the end of this age are to raise up His entire Body the way He originally intended, all the parts functioning the way they are meant to function, as a Body, in unity, in step with the Spirit and in His power – when He comes. It will be time for the remnant church to arise, shine, for your light has come! No super-stars, except Jesus in ALL of His people!
What happened to the apostles?
God’s order and function of His church has not changed, and it will be no different in the last day church than it was in the first century church.
A plurality of apostles, prophets, teachers, elders, ect.. all building up and edifying the body until we are all perfected (matured) and reach the fullness of Christ. There has to be leaders in the church otherwise Jesus would not have given the five offices to the body.
1st Cor. 12:27-28
“Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues”
Ephesians 2:19-20
“Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.”
Well, Tozer is right. It’s hard to honor the indwelt-of-God. That takes humility!
Weep for Bad Decisions
By Robert Winkler Burke
Copyright 9/23/08
Weep for bad decisions,
Made at such a cost,
Weep for bad decisions,
Where so much is lost.
Heaven weeps, hell rejoices,
At bad plans made,
Good is mocked, evil honored,
When honor disobeyed.
Cry for souls in stupor,
So blind and so jolly.
Cry for souls now drunk,
In dissolute folly.
Mourn not for the dead,
Their journey is over,
Wail for sons and daughters,
Buying the lie: Whatever.
Who cares, so what, nothing matters,
They like to say,
Until in quickened truth and deep grief,
They rue the day.
Such wicked and deprived things,
They even ever once said,
For when it’s too late then they’ll say,
Would God we were dead!
They’ll say, Oh God, Have mercy!
We’re in total shock!
We must warn our sons and daughters!
But us now they mock!
If only we could have believed,
Warnings of the wise,
God, we ask forgiveness as our seed,
Does wisdom despise.
Weep for bad decisions,
Made at such a cost,
Weep for bad decisions,
Where so much is lost.
There is no doubt that throughout history the Lord has raised up “delieverers” for His people.
It appears that predominantly this occurs after His people have “gone astray” and then cried out to Him to bring them back to Himself. Before the Lord raised up Samson in Judges there is no specific reference to the people crying out to the Lord to deliver them but in the other three occurences in Judges when “the Spirit of the Lord came upon them” there was this preceeding “crying out” from the people.
These “deliverers” which the Lord has raised up are actually representing the cries of the people of God. They are a demonstration of every God originated intercessory prayer which has been prayed through God’s people at that point in time. Their ministry is a sum of what the the people of God have prayed for under the unction of the Holy Spirit.
What I’m saying is this, at this point in time we are praying for revival, we are praying for God’s fullness in our lives, we are praying for God to inhabit His people, to possess His people, to live through His people like never before. The depth to which we as the saints of God cry out to God for His fullness to be manifest through His Church, His body on this earth, this is the depth to which all those who the Lord raises up as “deliverers” will accomplish this.
I personally believe that at this hour the Lord is raising up His Body to be, individually and “together in spirit”, a House of Prayer for the Nations and at the right time He will release a flood of “deliverers” out into the Nations to reap an end time harvest which will bring glory to His Name.
DEAR WATCHFUL
I AM SORRY THAT YOU SUFFERED SPIRITUAL ABUSE. I HAVE EXPERIENCED THAT MYSELF, AND THAT OF COURSE IS NOT WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. IF WE ARE DAILY LOOKING INTO THE WORD WE WILL RECOGNIZE HIS VOICE FROM THE VOICE OF A STRANGER.
Robert Glenn, Bondslave, Andrew J. Horton,
Congrats! You have got it! You are 100% spot on in-Christ. That’s it! Further…
Life is a Double-Flowing Hourglass
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 10/29/09
We are oft like the ancient mariner,
Struggling for redemption
Stuck tight at penury hourglass neck,
Finding no exemption.
The hourglass’ shape,
Shapes our experience,
Skinny in the middle,
Stuck fast in rigidness.
We start at the wide base,
Wide in foul proclivity,
Free to do evil things,
Until moving to rigidity.
We move up in the hourglass,
Constrained by righteous commandment,
Unaware rigid rules have a way,
Of blocking God’s highest refinement.
Pride lives in that choking bottleneck,
Where the hourglass sand slows its descent,
In humility: maturity,
We hope to escalade where saints are sent.
Up we go to wide place of movement,
Flexible and free,
Breaking rules as holy God allows,
Free in liberty.
How the rigid righteous,
Hate the flexible and free!
Making bottlenecks tighter,
Hoping no saints can see!
The rigid prideful in religion,
Killed Christ upon the cross,
For being holy, kind and flexible,
And not letting them be boss!
I believe that standing up for the TRUTH is part of being a Christian, especially in these last days. Certainly Scripture indicates that many will face martyrdom for refusing to compromise the faith. At the very least, the Two Witnesses of Revelation fit into this mold.
But I must say that, yes, the apostasy and deception of these days call for all, as Scripture commands to “… sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear …” that we may “… warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.”
“Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
And, while it is true that the Prophets of old were not self-promoting, neither did they allow inaccuracies to stand. Nor did they hesitate to defend their message, God’s true people or God Himself.
I have also been subject to ‘spiritual abuse’ as well as true rebuke from God through another. I have learned a few things. First, abuse often disguises itself as ‘love’ – the knife being disguised as concern. The result of such abuse is guilt, confusion, depression and hopelessness. This sounds like your case, watchful. True rebuke frequently makes you roaring mad, just before it sets you free. That, I believe is what Ruth was speaking to.
For myself, I was shown that God chooses the vessel to bless / rebuke / exhort / correct His people. He used Babylon to punish Israel and Persia to nurture them. He spoke through Caiaphas that it was better for one (Jesus) to die for the people than for all the people to die. Balaam was a false prophet and a soothsayer, yet he spoke the WORD of God. It behooves us to pay attention to any correction, at least to prayerfully consider it, with the possible exception of those we already have marked as false. Even there, I prefer to err on the side of caution.
Our brethren are our safety net. By keeping ourselves accountable and responsive to others, we can avoid the pitfalls that shipwreck the faith of so many. That is why Peter exhorts “Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for ‘God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.’
Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.
But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.”
And Amen
..Amen.
Good points, Seraphah.
Why is it that some people feel a need to always Copyright their posts? Do they somehow believe their words to be so profound that someone will want to publish them; therefore granting them some monetary reward for their depth of spirit and breadth of wisdom? Why not take the approach as did T. Austin-Sparks; “What was freely received, is freely given”.
Michael
Hi Michael i do agree with u , why do people always have to come with their own views and complecate the whole message, cant we just read it and keep the negative comments for ourselves and just post the positive ones. The word of God is there to uplift people and not something to debate about.
God bless.
Brenda.
Jeremiah chapter 23
1) ” Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture! saith the Lord.”
16-24) ” Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy to you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.
They say still unto them that despise me, ” The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace”; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, “No evil shall come upon you”.
For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived & heard His word? who hath marked His word, and heard it?
Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grevious whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
The anger of the Lord shall not return, until He have executed, and till He have performed the thoughts of His heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
But if they had stood in MY counsel, and had caused My people to hear MY words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
Verse 29) Is not My word like as a fire? saith the Lord: and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
The non-liturgical protestant churches have sought God for continuing revival for years, but in many cases it is like preaching to the choir. We’re all saved and baptized in the water of salvation, and we have all been gloriously baptized in God’s Holy Spirit. That’s it; there is no more; we’re just waiting to go to heaven.
However, because of their rebellion against all that is called catholic, many Protestants and Catholics remain in unbelief, not understanding that the Table of the Lord is the Holy Place of unity through the power of God’s Love, Way and Truth. It is here where the Holy Spirit ministers the Life of Jesus Christ within all the members of the Body of Christ. This absolute Truth is not man’s truth, it not my truth, but it is God’s Truth, for the Word of God has spoken: Truly, truly I say unto you: Except you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His Blood, you have no Life in you! (John 6 verse 53.) Surely you don’t think that the Words that come from the Creator of the universe, Jesus Christ are vanity so as to fall harmlessly on the ears of vain men. Now that the Word of God has spoken clearly, it is now your truth and my truth to proclaim as ambassadors of God’s Salvation Way, Truth and the Life of men. Why do you languish in the desert when there is a God given oasis waiting?
At the Table of the Lord, God’s Holy Spirit provides His Life sustaining Provisions in the multi-dimensional aspects of both the Body and the New Covenant Blood of His Son. This is the Infinite God’s gracious means, where by the dead in sin, are truly revived because of their repentance, and through their faith in God’s New Covenant WORD. With the spiritual community’s obedient faith to God’s Word, revival for all is discovered and can be maintained, within the riches of God’s Salvation grace in Jesus Christ. All confessed Sin is defeated in the Blood, and the Spiritual Life of Jesus Christ comes to the forefront of the Church. Methinks we protestors foolishly protest too much, to our own hurt!
John M. Mason was one of the most influential and well-known Presbyterian preachers of his age. In his letters on frequent Communion, (year 1852) volume 1, writes: “It is by no means improbable, that the restoration of scriptural communions, may usher in a time of refreshing from the presence of the Lord. It has just been shown, that no mean will more effectually conduce to the revival of love; and with the grace of love every other grace flourishes. In that sweet confidence and endearment, which are inseparable from it, believers strengthen each other’s faith; and are helpers of each other’s joy; nor is there, in the whole circle of social graces and duties, any which the Lord more delighteth to honor. Beside, the nearer a church approaches in her worship to the institutions of the Lord Jesus, the more solid ground has she to implore and to expect his countenance”.
Dear heavenly Father,
It is in the Grace of your Son, Jesus Christ that we ask that your Holy Word would ring home in the hearts of all your people, and the strength of your Word would resonate in the spirit of our minds to proclaim that your Word is Truth and all things exist because of the Truth.
Your servants with Robert Glenn
THE BIBLE AND ROMAN CATHOLICISM
The Roman Catholic Church has traditionally suppressed, opposed, and forbidden the open use of the Bible. It was first officially forbidden to the people and placed on the index of Forbidden Books List by the Council of Valencia in 1229 A.D. The Council of Trent (1545-63 A.D.) also prohibited its use and pronounced a curse upon anyone who would dare oppose this decree. Many popes have issued decrees forbidding Bible reading in the common language of the people, condemning Bible societies and banning its possession and translation under penalty of mortal sin and death. The Roman Catholic Church has openly burned Bibles and those who translated it or promoted its study, reading, and use (John Hus, 1415 A.D.; William Tyndale, 1536 A.D.)
Though external pressures have caused Rome to relax its restrictions and opposition against Bible reading the Bible is still widely withheld and its distribution and free use discouraged in many countries which are heavily influenced by Roman Catholicism.
My daughter has been informed by lecturers at a Roman Catholic university that the “church” considers the Bible to be a book of myths and legends subject to the teachings and traditions of the Roman Catholic church.
A RELIGIOUS SYSTEM OF BIBLICAL DISTORTIONS
Roman Catholicism is a system which is comprised of a mixture of truth and error. On the surface, it appears to many to be a brand of Christianity because it staunchly claims to embrace and defend the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. However, a closer examination proves that it is a system which actually nullifies and distorts Scriptural truth by adding erroneous, man-made teachings which openly contradict the Catholic and non-Catholic Bibles.
For example, the Roman Catholic Church claims the inspiration of the Scriptures, but dilutes the Word of God by exalting the authority of its own traditions, councils, and decrees above the Bible. Catholicism teaches the deity of Christ, but places Mary and priests as mediators between God and believers so that free access to Jesus is only possible through them. It teaches the forgiveness of sin, but only through confession to a priest and the absolution given by him. Catholicism teaches salvation, but substitutes a system of grace plus works in which human works are more important. It teaches that Christ established the Church, but exalts a man (the pope) as its head and invests absolute, infallible authority in him and his official decrees.
As a Bible believing christian born again by the Spirit of God washed in the blood of the Lamb committed to the Bible as the final arbiter on matters of faith and morals unity with the Roman Catholic church is absolutely impossible for the reasons outlined above.
Wayne…your description of the Roman Catholic Church pretty much describes all the “institutes” today.
Robert Winkler Burke…
The one called “Superman Returns” is absolutely great!!
Do you mind if I pass it on to a small group study?
Pope Boniface VIII declared in his “Unam Sanctam Ecclesiam” of 1302 that:
“it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
In 1870 Pope Pius IX proclaimed “Papal Infallibility” in all matters of faith and morals.
This is the basis of multitudes of unscriptural and anti-scriptural teachings and practices which biblical Christians find absolutely abhorrent.
The Roman Catholic Church NEVER changes. They say that about themselves.
This is ignored by people who find that biblical teaching prevents them from engaging in the popular ecumenical and religious activities of the day.
When compared with the clear teaching of scripture such ecumenical activity is Biblical Apostasy. The bible cannot be distorted to support both the claims of Jesus Christ and the claims of popery.
This most basic affront to biblical Christianity, the Roman Catholic teaching of “Unam Sanctam Ecclesiam” directly contradicts the words of Jesus in John 14:6:
“I AM the Way the Truth and the Light, NO man cometh unto the Father BUT by me.”
I would be very happy for you to use this material Happy Trails.
Andrew J Horton wrote:
“I personally believe that at this hour the Lord is raising up His Body to be, individually and “together in spirit”, a House of Prayer for the Nations and at the right time He will release a flood of “deliverers” out into the Nations to reap an end time harvest which will bring glory to His Name.”
I agree. There is a TRUE LATTER RAIN for the TRUE children of God. But there is a FALSE LATTER RAIN for the apostates which can basically be called “dominionists” and they also take on the title of “latter day saints” who talk about a “latter rain” as well.
This is where it becomes confusing.
Because there is the FALSE as well as the true “latter rain”
One is “man initiated” “man -led” and the other is “God initiated” and “God led”
And both will be happening in these end times.
What you are saying is true “Heidi144″ whenever there is a true outpouring of the Holy Spirit the enemy will counterfeit that work.
I do not believe in “kingdom now” or whatever else is out there but I do believe in a final outpouring of the Holy Spirit – as I read recently does David Wilkinson – which will preceed “the great and terrible day of the Lord”.
I believe that this final outpouring will be a demonstration of the unity of all who God knows belong to the Lord Jesus Christ and will occur with much opposition from those who do not.
I believe that the Character of Jesus Christ, the fruit of the Spirit, will be demonstrated through those who truly belong to the Lord Jesus Christ and as they go about doing what they are led to do, preaching the gospel, healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, showing compassion to the poor and needy, this testimony will be seen by those the Lord is preparing for salvation in the world and they too will come to Christ.
I am finding that certain people are not understanding me when I talk of these things and so I pray that the Lord will show them what is of Him through what I am sharing and if there’s anything not from Him that He will show them this also.
I know for myself that for a number of years now, I think it began in 1991 for me, that the Lord began to put the burden of revival on my heart and has led me to pray on various occasions for this to occur.
How else can I describe it without being misunderstood? I believe it will be like the day of Pentecost, like the early church but that it will spread through all the world.
I believe it will be a fulfilment of Jesus’ yearning desire in John 17 “that they all may be one” – we, those who God knows belong to Jesus Christ, will unite on the truth of scripture and in submission to the Holy Spirit and will not love our lives unto death.
The “apostate”, “institutionalised”, “organised” church will continue doing what it is doing but will vehemently oppose what is accomplished by the Holy Spirit.
We must be ready to be hated by all, even members of our own families, the scriptures tell us. We must hate our own lives. We must lay down our own lives. If any of us are not willing to forsake everything we have then we are fit to be His disciples the scriptures tell us.
This is what I’m talking about when I talk about a great end time harvest or world wide revival. It will be amidst great opposition and we will need to be completely dead to the fear of man.
Correction:
“…then we are not fit to be His disciple…”
Very good information, Wayne.
It is both interesting and sad to note that the RC ‘Church’ did exactly what the Pharisees did. They established a spiritual hierarchy and added the teachings and doctrines of the Pope to the Scriptures in the same manner as the Pharisees had added the writings of the Rabbis (Talmud) to the Torah – “making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which [they] have handed down.” The result was the same, a dead orthodoxy that failed to set men free.
The ‘protestants’ are no better. How many come to the table with the words and ‘revelations’ of their favorite ‘Bible Teacher’ (sometimes themselves…) instead of the WORD? This is the error that has spawned the ‘latter rain’ the ‘new apostolic’ and so many other heretical offshoots.
The real move of God will be among those who love the TRUTH and so were not deceived. The TRUTH will be more important than any doctrine, opinion or organization. They will live with the blessing of Jesus who asked His Father to “Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.”
“Blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
I give you this, which has been ringing in my spiritual ears, brother:
Isaiah 8:16-20
Bind up the testimony, Seal the law among my disciples. And I will wait on the Lord, Who hides His face from the house of Jacob; And I will hope in Him. Here am I and the children whom the Lord has given me! We are for signs and wonders in Israel From the Lord of hosts, Who dwells in Mount Zion. And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?
To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Greetings to all brothers and sisters in the Lord!
What a refreshing and challenging word to hear!
It is so true.. It will take someone who fears God with all their heart and not man; in order to step in and change the ‘acquired normal” state of the church. Honestly, to many christians even on these forums and throughout our own churches; most of us probably would not accept one who comes out with such authority similar to the prophets of old…
The article above leaves us with a challenge.. To the one of us who feels called to be bold for God in this manner and actually walks in it, the rest of us either will fall into one of two categories: either hating what that one says or adoring that person whole-heartily..Sadly, I believe many of us would probably not stand with such a man, we would probably find something to critique on, judge falsely or just be insanely jeolous of his direct “OBEDIENCE” to the voice of God, which is to help turn the church back to the truth of Christ once again and to obedience. As we all know Isreal was always backslidden because of their “DISOBEDIENCE” TO THE mandate and call of God. It wasn’t a call to make feel people good, but rather challenge them unto righteousness and teach them not just to talk it, but walk it out!!
If all of us here were to go into our communites obeying the mandate and call of God to rid the church of it’s filth, I believe we would see a national revival!! How simple!! All we have to do is follow the examples of the prophets, which is why there in the word of God and apply it to the generation we’re in as we desperately need repentence and cleansing.!! We would not need repentence, cleansing and salvation if our nation wasn’t in the moral trouble that it’s in..
Let’s allow ourselves to be used in the way the prophets were with disobedient Isreal. If God used them then, he can use some of us humble servants now, onlyif were willing to stand up to ridicule, disappointment and persecution, as all of them faced.. I know for certain, I am just about ready myself..
Lastly, I just spoke at a church in Ct-Litchfield County on thursday night for VOM. ONLY ONE LEADER there was receptive to the message of Christ and the persecuted church. I challenged the leaders and congregations from a biblical standpoint. That persecution throughout history is a direct outcome of that christian’s OBEDIENCE to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Maybe we need to ask ourselves, are we being persecuted in some way for our boldness for CHrist, AND IF NOT, maybe we need to be looking for persecution as a sign of our obedience to him.. AMEN..
God’s mercy and Grace to us all-
Stephanie
Paul said that all who live godly in Christ will be persecuted. Paul was treated as a criminal for speaking the truth. Jesus spoke the truth to the religious leaders, & for this, was also treated as a criminal, & He went to the cross. The truth is exact, there is no flexibility to it. There are believers who know the truth, but it costs to much to speak it. You won’t be persecuted for proclaiming the mushy “gospel” that you hear in American “churches”. You have to present a stumbling block, to be persecuted & hated, because it will be from religious people who will do the persecuting.
1Pet. 2.9 ” And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto they were also appointed.”
Rom.922 ” What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering, the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Jn.10.26 ” But ye believe not,because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you”.
Jn.17.9 “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine”.
Jn8.43 ” Why do ye not understand my speech ? even because ye cannot hear my word”.
I really feel on my heart to share more explicitly what it is that the Lord will do in these last days…
Before the “great and terrible day of the Lord” the Lord will have a testimony to His Name on this earth…
It has been a long time since the simplicity and power of the gospel has been proclaimed on this earth…
It will be proclaimed in simplicity and power and fullness and demonstrated in the power of the Holy Spirit with true signs and wonders and miracles and supernatural healings and deep and abiding repentance and contrition over sin and deep humility created by the Holy Spirit in the hearts of those who receive the grace of God to save them from the results of their sin against a Holy God who hates sin and scripture tells us in Psalms “hates the wicked”.
Yes, the Lord loves every human being on the planet and yearns for their salvation and died to shed His Blood that they could be saved if only they would give themselves to Him and accept His free gift of salvation “look and you shall live” as He reminds us in the gospels with respect to Moses lifting up the bronze serpant in the wilderness.
The truth is that when the full depth of the love of God and His burning and passionate heart to have a relationship with every human being on the planet is presented in power by those who the Lord raises up to bring this message and demonstrated through their lives in that they are free from unrighteous judgement, pride, conceit, arrogance and condescension and when they share in holiness, in God’s Holy Fire and in passionate love and honesty and simplicity and genuine earnestness and their message is rejected by those who choose to cling to their sin and hide from God’s truth then God’s wrath will rightfully be the reward for those who reject the Grace of God and if they do not repent then when they die they will receive the reward of an eternity of suffering, conscious suffering, in the lake of fire and brimestone.
It is really very simple, either you believe and commit to the work which Jesus Christ completed in His life on earth, in His death on the cross, in shedding His Holy Blood for the redemption of the whole world, in His rising again from the dead on the third day and in His ascension into heaven to sit at the right hand of God Almighty, or you do not.
If you do believe in this work then your life will be changed forever. You will become more and more affected by the love which you have received from the Lord. You will know that you, by the sole mercy of God Almighty have been spared from the eternity of suffering in the lake of fire and brimestone which you deserve and your gratitude will lead you to offer your body as a living sacrifice to God on the altar of absolute submission to the will of God for your life. God’s will is our sanctification. He will transform all those who He knows are truly His into the likeness of His Son Jesus Christ.
The message that will be preached is that the fruit of the Holy Spirit the character of Jesus Christ and of God Almighty will be progressively demonstrated more and more and more through the lives of all those whom the Lord has chosen in His mercy to inherit salvation and that just as Christ our Passover has been sacrificed and we shelter under His shed Blood from the wrath of Almighty God we will proclaim to all those who choose not to shelter under His shed Blood and finished work that they too will stand to be consumed by the wrath of Almighty God just as the Egyptians and the “gods of Egypt” experienced the wrath of Almighty God when they hardened their hearts against His commandments.
The wrath of Almighty God will be unleished from heaven against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men and any who are not sheltering under the Blood of the Lamb, Christ our Righteousness, will be consumed continually and eternally in the fire of His wrath.
God loves every human being on this planet so passionately that He is going to raise up fearless servants to go into all the world and preach the gospel with the signs which follow as Mark tells us and He will do this “before the great and terrible day of the Lord”.
There will be great opposition but there will also be the presence of God like we, in our generation – and maybe in any generation prior to this one – have never experienced before.
There will be those who die for their allegiance to Jesus, there are already many thousands who are dying in parts of the world but this I believe will happen in the west also and it has been said by someone that “the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church” – I believe this to be true.
Once the love of God and a passion for His Righteousness and Holiness has so gripped our hearts and we have let go of everything else there will be no other option than to burn out for God, wherever we go, whatever we do, to burn out for God and to be consumed on the fire of His altar with a passion to glorify His Name and none other.
“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling
away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV)
In 1948 a movement was born that has become the foundation of the great apostasy that the Apostle
Paul warned us would come prior to the return of our Lord. Known as the New Order of the Latter Rain or
just the Latter Rain Movement its influence has steadily grown within the Pentecostal and Charismatic
Churches since 1948. Today, through the influence of various “revivals” its leaven is spreading even further
into the Evangelical world.
An apostasy or “falling away” is essentially a rebellion of God’s people against His Word. It would
be within the Latter Rain “revival” which broke out in North Battleford, Saskatchewan, in 1948 that the last
great rebellion against the word of God would be birthed. It is my belief that this movement has ushered in
the very apostasy that the Apostle Paul warned would come.
Rebelling against the New Testament picture of the Church in the last days as a despised remnant of
the faithful holding on until the rapture, they began to develop a heretical doctrine of a triumphant Church –
conquering the world and bringing in the kingdom of Christ. The first time the Church adopted such a
theology it resulted in the development of Roman Catholicism and ushered in the Dark Ages. This time the
result will be much the same but of a much shorter duration. It will produce the one-world ecumenical
church, “The Great Harlot” that will triumph for a short time under Anti-Christ – “Drunken with the blood of
the saints and martyrs of Jesus.”
It came to be taught that the “Latter Rain” revival of 1948 was to be the first in a series of
“restorational moves of God” that would restore to the Church all of the truths that Satan had “robbed” her
of. The five-fold ministries of apostles and prophets would also be restored to the church. These restored
“apostles” and “prophets” would lead the Church into “present truth” and the “last great moves of God.”
Eventually when the Church was mature enough the “rapture” would occur. But the rapture of the Latter
Rain would be a much different rapture than the Church had ever taught before. It would be a “spiritual”
coming of Christ into His Church, His “corporate body.” A “corporate anointing.” The saints would be
“glorified”, even “deified” – right here on this earth. This overcoming army of saints believes it will go
forth conquering and triumphing over all of it’s enemies in the Great Tribulation. When they are done Christ
will be “released from the heavens”, to come and take control of the kingdom they have established.
This doctrine is known as the “Manifest Sons of God” or “Sonship” and has spread throughout the
Evangelical Church through the Charismatic and Kingdom/Dominion Movements. The Latter Rain
“revivals” that are occurring in Toronto, Pensecola, and various other places are popularizing and spreading
this heresy at an alarming rate. It is known popularly today as “Joel’s Army”. Thousands of Christians are
coming into a strong delusion because they did not receive the love of the truth. While they may have
received the truth, they did not have a love for it and have therefore fallen away from it. They are trading
their blessed hope for an earthly delusion.
Another of his jewels:
“A real Christian in an odd number anyway. He feels supreme love for One whom he has never seen, talks familiarly every day to Someone he cannot see, expects to go to heaven on the virtue of Another, empties himself in order to be full, admits he is wrong so he can be declared right, goes down in order to get up, is strongest when he is weakest, richest when he is poorest, and happiest when he feels worst. He dies so he can live, forsakes in order to have, gives away so he can keep, sees the invisible, hears the inaudible, and knows that which passes knowledge.”
Authentic and powerful christians and christianity aren’t radical……just normal.
To the fleshly mindset it seems radical.
Today we have a “christianity” that looks nothing like the REAL thing…..JESUS….and followers who emulate Him through the Spirit’s divine enablement.
“Follow me as I follow Christ” SHOULD be the norm.
Wayne,
What is your understanding of these scriptures?
Ephesians 4:11-13
“And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.”
Tyrone, my thinking on this passage of scripture is something like this. We are all still responsible for our own spiritual condition and are accountable for what we do with the Word of God as revealed to us in His Word (The Bible).
And he gave some [to be] apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.
The first thing that is mentioned is how God, through Christ, has made it possible for all of His people to receive the truth they need to live right and good lives. God gave certain gifts and associated them with certain key positions in the church. These men are not called leaders here but certainly play that influential part. There are four categories (though some suggest five): apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastor-teachers. Christ equips these certain persons with gifts and positions to train, equip and protect the sheep. Let’s first discuss what each of these gifts to the church might mean and then come back to how it relates to our own churches.
(1) Apostles
Many think this term apostle is expressly used to describe the twelve apostles as seen in Acts 1. The concept of apostle certainly was initiated by the way Christ appointed the original twelve disciples which later became apostles. But there is no doubt that the word ‘apostle’ also has a much wider usage. For example, in Acts, Barnabas is called an apostle. “But when the apostles , Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out” (Acts 14:14). Barnabas and Paul were both called apostles.
The term ‘apostle’ means sent one. We can best understand the apostle’s special designation as a church-starter or in today’s terms, church planter. These individuals go into uncharted territory and establish the church of God. They define the basic truths of the Gospel: who Christ is, how a person is saved, what the Gospel is, etc. Cults function best in areas where the basic fundamental concepts of the Gospel were not clearly laid out. It is a pity that we need to talk to people from China or other unreached cultures that Mormonism is not Christianity. Apostle literally means ‘sent one’ and is fully comparable to the term missionary that we use which comes from the Latin also meaning ‘sent.’
(2) Prophets
Much has been written on this topic in the last few decades. The Reformed tradition looks at the preacher as the prophet because he declares God’s Word to the people. They are right as far as they go, but they do not go far enough. The prophet takes what God has given to him and reveals it to God’s people. God is communing with the people. The prophet, however, both forthtold and foretold God’s Word. The New Testament records several future-telling predictions.
Even though there might be less emphasis on the latter, it should not be totally discarded as it often is. Many Christians would sever this latter aspect. They either relegate the prophet’s function to the historical past or redefine the prophet in the pastor’s role. This is sometimes done out of a desire to protect the written Word of God as our supreme revelation from God rather than mixing it with other kinds of messages.
Who after all can verify that it is God speaking? But it is interesting that God used the foretelling aspect to prove that it the forthtelling was not a subjective (and thus twisted) message but real and from God. Someone has even carefully noted several famous Reformers were prophets who accurately foretold various future events.
In summary of this highly controversial topic, I would say three things.
-1- The perspective that limits the existence of prophets to the past is artificially contrived. God gave these positions. Who are we to say that Christ no longer gives them. This is written in the constitution of the church and must remain. Can we actually draw a line after prophets and dogmatically state that the first two categories were only for the early church? Many places around the world today are very similar scenes with the early church. They lack the written Word of God, forms of paganism and ungodly philosophies, and the absence of any church seem to make this instruction crucial.
-2- It is very possible some have rejected current apostles and prophets in order to protect themselves from the influences of the Roman Catholic Church’s pope and of characters from the charismatic movement. As a whole the Western church no longer recognizes, encourages or utilizes these needed gifts in our midst. We need to return to God’s Word even if we must gingerly do it. What would our church be like without the other posts and gifts such as pastor-teachers? Deformed. And I suggest it is deformed today because of the lack of belief in what God has so clearly spoken. (By the way, I do not have this gift and am not secretly defending myself).
-3- Lastly, I would call the church to peace as Paul the Apostle called us in the first verses of this chapter. It is okay to disagree, but we must pronounce our unity across biblical principles and practices despite differences on definitions and concepts hidden in a word like prophet.
(3) Evangelists
The church has allowed the media to redefine the concept of evangelists. In many people’s minds, it is a person who speaks and charms thousands down to the auditorium’s floor in repentance. This disguises the real meaning of the evangelist. It again is not his charm or winsome personality but the Spirit of God working through the evangelist’s message that releases the Gospel into the hearts of men so that the Spirit of God can use it to convert the souls He is working in.
When I was in India, we saw many young men going out as evangelists.They had no real education, but they knew the Lord and were zealous in going village to village preaching the Gospel. Just yesterday I heard of a person asking a young Chinese person to praise God for what he did. He said he was an evangelist. When asked how old he was, “He said fifteen.” Now we might have questions about the wisdom of this. After all he had no education (though he did read the whole Bible 38 times). He had no seminary degree nor would he ever be able to get one. But he focused on what God had called him to do. Let me make a few comments.
(4) Pastor-teachers
Let us speak about pastor-teacher as one gift/position. Either way, we cannot dogmatically use our conclusions to define our ministries. A pastor cares for a local group of God’s people, sometimes more. He has a narrow focus. The apostle focuses on a region. The prophet focuses on the relevant target, be it group or individual. The evangelist focuses on the unreached. The pastor-teacher sets his heart on training the people in his own congregation. This does not mean that others do not disciple God’s people. One key aspect that shapes the gifting is the kind of ministry involved.
Many have been involved as a missionary (sent one -church planter), as evangelist, going here and there spreading God’s Word as well as pastor-teacher. Each is very different but to some degree everyone is doing the same. The difference is the concentration of what one is teaching and preaching as well as the target group. As an evangelist, the teaching from God’s Word is not deep. People are not believers. Once saved however they need to receive adequate bible training to ensure they continue to grow in the knowledge and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The comment for pastor-teachers is true for the above. The church has focused too much on this full-time concept. Paul does not write of it here. Many pastors will no doubt become full-time servants of God. Many others will not. But what is most important is that we all pay attention to what God wants of our lives!
Each congregation can have several pastor-teachers even though perhaps only one is called or paid as a pastor. They might also have one or two prophets and several evangelists. The true pastor-teacher will almost always easily be found because he will be doing what defines him. He might be an engineer but his heart is on caring for the sheep. Full-time service has many advantages but let each serve faithfully where God appoints them. If we broaden our concepts here a bit, I think we will come away refreshed and perhaps excited. We should focus on God raising up such men rather than it being something that a person chooses as an occupation.
Conclusion
God will be calling and raising leaders from among our congregations to these positions. Are we one of them? Are we so burdened down by misconceptions that we cannot seek God’s best for our congregations? If we start opening our eyes in faith to the God who is serious about equipping the church, then He indeed will bless us. We must not succumb to the doubt that we do not need any of these gifted men. May God all the more equip us like the Antioch church. God is serious about training His people. We need to get with it and start recognizing those He has gifted around us otherwise we will never get where God wants to take us.
All things must be done in an orderly and biblical fashion.
Tyrone,
“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” Jude 3-4
There are two types of “Christians” in the churches today: (1) Those who profess to believe the Bible, yet only obey that which they want to obey based on personal preference, bias, convenience, etc.; and (2) those who believe the Bible and seek diligently to obey all that Jesus commanded to New Testament believers. The group that picks and chooses what to obey and what not to obey must find like minded pickers and choosers who pick and choose what they pick and choose–thus, you have many denominations/groups of like-minded pickers and choosers. It is terribly hard to get anyone to leave their group. The only way is to get them to pick and choose different things, or become one of the believers who just seek to obey all Jesus taught through his Word. This faith and practice will be the same as that which the apostles handed to the first century churches.
I have found that those who obey all the New Testament are a small minority, but usually have wonderful fellowship, godly homes, and peace with God. I want to be in this group.
“ALL THINGS”
The commission Jesus gave to the church was to teach the gospel, baptize the believers, and then teach them to observe all things that Jesus commanded (Matt. 28:19,20). Most modern churches don’t take this serious. The apostles taught the first century church to observe Jesus’ commands. Many of the commands and teachings the apostles taught the first century churches are now not being taught or observed in churches today — while a horde of beliefs and practices, which are not from the apostles are being taught and practiced! We see this as nothing else but disobedience: a rejection of Jesus as LORD, and a rejection of the Bible as our sole authority for faith and practice. The apostle Paul told the churches (which includes us) three very important principles:
#1. We don’t have the right or permission to change what the apostles taught the first century churches.
2 Thess. 2:15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Thess. 3:6,7 ” Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
Romans 16:17,18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
#2 We are to follow the apostles and use them as a ruler to measure other teachers’ credibility. We are not to be so proud as to think we can improve on the apostles.
Phil. 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (I Cor. 11:1 also).
Phil. 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
I Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
#3 Those who changed what the apostles taught were grievous wolves. Any change to the apostolic pattern is a perversion. What we today are teaching and observing is either APOSTOLIC or from a GRIEVOUS WOLF.
Acts 20:29-31 “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”
Gal. 1:8,9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Jude 3,4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Romanists try from this foundation to argue for “oral tradition”, thus excusing their additions to the Word, however, I believe A.R. Fausset said it well when commenting on I Cor. 11:1,2: “Romanists argue hence for oral traditions. The difficulty is to know what is genuine apostolic tradition intended for all ages. Any that can be proved to be such ought to be observed; any that cannot, ought to be rejected (Rev. 22:18). Those preserved in the written Word alone can be proved to be such.”
“THE PHILOSOPHY”
In order not to be deceived, the Word of God must be the SOLE AUTHORITY in our lives. In order for it to be the sole authority, we must surrender our will to it, and obey it without preferring one thing above another.
I Tim. 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.”
John tells us that if everything were written about Jesus’ life that could be written, the world could not contain the books. So, we see God hand picked what he wanted in the relatively small New Testament that we have. The Holy Spirit made no mistakes. If God saw it as important enough to include, so must we.
No matter how small the matter may seem to you, if you pick and choose in any area, then YOU become the authority, and not the Bible. You then become a “hearer” and not a “doer” in that one area, and this leads to self deception.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Matt. 7:21-27. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:….and it fell not:….And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:….and great was the fall of it.
All deception is because the Bible loses its rightful place of sole authority, and you have stepped in and become the authority by picking and choosing what to obey, and what to throw out. If you have some experience, or read of someone else’s, and proceed to interpret the Bible according to that experience, then the experience becomes an authority. You must allow the Bible to interpret any experience, not use the experience to interpret the Bible. You must be willing to hold to what the Bible actually SAYS over and above all your theological training, presuppositions, etc. You must bow to what God’s revelation states in its proper context even if it means loved ones will be in hell or “unsaved”, etc.
I repeat, no matter how small or large the matter may seem to you, if you pick and choose in any area, you are offending God, and heading for deception! God’s Word alone must be the authority — that means no adding, and no subtracting! If we add, then the church excommunicates for wrong reasons. If we subtract, then the church multiplies unbiblically. If we don’t add, and don’t subtract; then we have proper multiplication, and proper division.
Who had all truth?
Jesus made it clear, as we will see later in the study, that to believe in him was to hear and obey him. Before Jesus died, rose, and ascended He gave the Apostles and disciples definite instructions as to what his plans were for his church. Additionally, He said He had many other things to tell them, but they couldn’t receive them yet. However, he said, the Holy Spirit will come and “guide you into all truth”.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
It is clear that the Apostles had “all truth” when they wrote the Scriptures and made decisions for the life of the church after the Holy Ghost descended upon them at Pentecost. It is also vital to note that the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, which refers to all the doctrine he taught, was ONCE FOR ALL delivered to the saints; and that we are to EARNESTLY CONTEND FOR THAT FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE DELIVERED UNTO THE SAINTS.
God’s truth may be progressively growing in your mind, but the FAITH, or doctrine of God’s Word is not growing and changing! It was ONCE delivered to the saints, and we are to contend for THAT faith, and only that faith, which was ONCE delivered to the saints. “The saints” refers to the Apostles. The Apostles are the saints who received “ALL TRUTH” from the Holy Spirit, and thus all the New Testament books are considered authoritative because they were written or endorsed by the Apostles. For instance: Mark was a companion of Peter and Paul, who endorsed his Gospel to be correct.
Ephesians 2:20 tells us that the church is built on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, with Jesus the chief corner stone. The book of Revelation pictures the New Jerusalem, which is symbolic of the church, having twelve foundations, which are the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.
So we see that all true doctrine was known and taught by the apostles. There is no new truth or revelations being given today to the church. AMEN TO THAT!!!!!
We are not to contend for any modern doctrines, or practices; but only contend for the FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS. This FAITH for which we are to contend was already delivered, and considered a past transaction when Jude wrote his book. God used circumstances to cause the Apostles to write GOSPELS and EPISTLES by the leading and power of the Holy Spirit, so that all the necessary oral preaching and teaching would also be written, so we in later generations would know the “all truth” that God gave to the saints, and not have to rely on the uncertain foundation of oral tradition. “Churchmen” have always liked to overcomplicate matters so the people feel completely dependent on them for guidance. If they convince the people that higher education, theological training, “secret knowledge”, etc. is necessary to understand the Word of God; then they can maintain their power over the common people. They have in the past kept the Word of God out of the common language; but now they just try to convince people that they cannot understand the Bible. Well, the way many try to explain it, I am not surprised people cannot understand it.
Compromise of the truth – Where do we draw the line?
In these last days it seems pretty evident that we are in the midst of compromise on every hand. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. Jesus is all about no compromise, you will find it nowhere in anything Jesus said or did. Even with the Holy Spirit probably we all struggle not to compromise the truth at some level. Where do we draw the line?
Deception abounds in the world and the church. We are to be salt and light according to Scripture and the light exposes the darkness. So if we are walking with the Holy Spirit, He will make manifest what we are seeing, whether it is truth or deception. We won’t be automatically spared deception for we still have a choice and have to listen for the still small voice. Will we listen or is there some truth that we draw the line at and say it is to harsh, unloving, that it is not an expression of love. Where do we draw the line?
John the Baptist came from being taught by Holy Spirit in the wilderness preaching repentance from sin. He was very plain spoken and in the face of sinners. Jesus said of John, “For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” So it would appear that John’s uncompromising stand and speaking was acceptable to Jesus. Where do we draw the line?
Many true believers have been called out of the “churches” to a time in the wilderness, to a time of learning by the Holy Spirit the truth and to unlearn deceptions we have learned at the hands of men. Even before we are totally removed from the wilderness of God’s choosing He gives us opportunities to stand up and speak the truth as He leads us. Much of it will ‘grate at our humanness’ and we may be tempted to not speak all we are told and therefore become disobedient. Where do we draw the line?
We must always remember we are supposed to be servants of God, bought with a price, and have given our will over to God’s will.
When Jesus came out of His wilderness in His Father’s name He said what He was told. He didn’t promise a nice prosperous life free of strife or sacrifice. In fact just the opposite, when Jesus spoke there was something required to follow Him. It angered or made sad many of the Jewish people, Pharisees, Scribes, and other leaders of the ‘church’ as well as ordinary people. Even though Jesus was not sent to the gentiles or Samaritans, He did have occasion to speak with them also. Even the disciples were not spared the hard truth. Jesus knew the truth was the only thing that could set us free. Where do we draw the line?
Jesus, the apostles, John the Baptist, and everyone God ever called to speak the truth in His name, has understood that to let anyone stay with a sin or deception that will cause them to be condemned was not loving the people or the truth. Where do we draw the line?
Now many today will be in complete agreement with speaking hard things to and about the apostate/deceived in the ‘church’, such as people in Lakeland or Toronto whose movements have spread to churches over the whole world. Or perhaps it is the ‘Word of Faith’ with their prosperity gospel. Maybe your hot button gets pushed by dominion theology, dispensationalism, pre-trib rapture or replacement theology to name a few. Where do we draw the line?
Do we draw the line at speaking the whole truth to our families and friends? Do we draw the line at speaking the whole truth to the beloved people of Jesus, the Jewish people?
When I counted the cost and agreed to be a bondservant of Jesus, my Master, King, and Savior, it was not a “do only what you want of what He says.” My life no longer belongs to me and although I frequently fall short, I will to do the will of God. If we truly care for the lost in this fallen world, that are already under condemnation, shouldn’t we tell them all the truth so that they might come to repentance and be saved?
Where do we draw the line?
Makkehelah
Makkehelah, I couldn’t actually find the word ‘compromise’ in the bible when I searched to see what the scriptures had to say about it, so I take it that in using this word we are talking about sharing correct doctrine as opposed to a watered down or false gospel? Or are you talking more about ‘tone of voice’? (or both?) I’m too tired to talk now without rambling (believe me, I just tried for four paraphraphs but had to erase it all! ), but I’d like to come back to it in the morning, God willing..
…P.S. Please tell Seraphah I very much appreciate and agree with her posts and Art Katz’s article regarding the Jewish people..
Unfortunately, we can expect this apostasy to continue to spread and grow worse until the Lord
returns. The spirit of Anti-Christ is growing increasingly more powerful and seductive and more and more
churches are falling under its ecumenical Latter Rain spell. As the “revivals” continue to spread there is
going to be increasing pressure upon those of us who continue to stubbornly stand against them. As lying
signs and wonders grow more and more powerful and as the claimed “salvations” increase they will put
more pressure upon us to “jump into the river”, accusing us of being “Pharisees with a religious Spirit” or
worse – “Anti-Christ”, if we continue to reject what they consider to be so great a move of God. “Look at
the sinners being saved! The lives changed! The fruit! The miracles, signs and wonders! How can you
continue to stand against this mighty move of God?” In what I am afraid is a sign of things to come, a Charisma article tells of a local pastor who gave in to the pressure to embrace this counterfeit revival
as the real thing:
One local minister accused the leader of a Latter Rain church of being a cult leader and labeled the church a cult.
He later apologized, “There has been too many converts for me to deny any longer this is a
move of God,” the minister said.
The Gnostic heretics of the first century gained many converts. So did the later Arian heretics. Did
this make their rising up within the midst of the church “moves of God”? No! The Holy Spirit is still the
Spirit of truth. Until our Lord returns, and we rise up to meet Him in the clouds at the rapture – let us
remember His admonition to the faithful Philadelphian Church:
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall
come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast
what you have, that no one may take your crown.” (Rev 3:10,11 NKJV)
GOD IS TESTING FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD!!!!!
Remember – “He who endures to the end shall be saved.”
“Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.”
OK, Makkehelah, good morning, I’ll take a stab at this, I would say we need to speak the truth so far as we know/possess it, according to how the circumstances call for it to be spoken. I think Jude says it well:
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
Jud 1:22 Be merciful to those who doubt;
Jud 1:23 snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear-hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
Where do we draw the line? Just my thoughts, but I think a mixture of common sense, wisdom, and the Holy Spirit ought to be our guide. Generally our speech should be “full of grace and seasoned with salt”, but there may be times when the Holy Spirit might carry someone to be more emphatic or salty. For example, when John the Baptist was rebuking the Pharisees. However, I doubt he spoke that way to the penitent who were not enemies of the gospel. I also doubt he spoke to children that way.
In my own life I used to be more “fervent” when talking about such things as deception and apostasy, but it was a fervency of the flesh, and a sense of urgency because it was all new to me, probably I needed to be urgent at that time as i was being separated from the false and needed to express the word of my testimony – but when the Lord touched me deeply and ministered to me not long ago, that ‘fervency’ just disappeared as I came into a deeper rest and trust in Him. He isnt’ done with me yet, I’m still half-baked bread, maybe by the time I’m done I’ll come out swingin’ my sword again, but this time by His Spirit, for all I know. But I’m sure of this – He doesn’t swing His sword indiscriminately at those who don’t deserve to be hit in the head with it. He is sovereign and fully in control of what is going on in the world with the lost, and even what is going on in the way of deception in the church. If we are yielded to Him in our life, He will do what is right at the right time according to the situation, and also according to our calling or gifting.
I’m guessing you’re hinting that we should not hold back any part of the truth such as when talking to the Jews about the Saviour – I agree and Seraphah’s posts on the forum were an eye-opener – absolutely, they will look on Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for an only Son. Yes, the Jews need that element of being confronted and rebuked, especially the religious. I once said to a religious Jew who I worked with that the only difference between us, was that they were waiting for the Messiah to come the first time, and we Christians are waiting for Him to come a second time. Well, the Lord rebuked me for that, and I learned a lesson that day, actually, something similar happened twice, so I guess I’m a slow learner! But I know how He loves and yearns for His chosen people – He knows best as their Father the discipline they need in order to be reconciled to Him..Oh Lord, what can we say about that? Just weep like Jeremiah..and pray.
Perhaps, while we are being watchful of others we need to be watchful of our own hearts even as Teresa has learned. The following came to my mind while reading all of the various writings of fear, judgments, recriminations, desert experiences mixed with joys and exhortations of the faithfulness of the Lord. We are all forgetful in our flesh and its power to deceive us. Even though I wrote this message long ago, I also am forgetful and need to return to it often to remember the strength of God’s love that is to be in the members of the Body of Jesus Christ.
The Servant and Master of all, said to me when in prayer in preparation to write on Holy Communion in the midst of questioning pastoral opposition: “Tell them: I AM He that sits in the pews of all the churches”.
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Truly, I say unto you, Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, you have done it unto Me. (Matthew 25 verse 40 (NIV.)
What? know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which you have of God, and you are not your own? (1st Corinthians 6 verse 19) (KJV) Also verse 17. He who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in Spirit. For where two or three are gathered in My Name, there I AM in the midst of them. (Matthew 18 verse 20.)
Many years ago, at about the same time I had the first visionary dreams concerning the Communion Table of our Lord Jesus Christ, I had another revelation when in prayer that in the end will speak of the above relational scriptures. My wife Rose and I had come home after a Wednesday home fellowship. Rose had gone to bed, and I went into the living room to kneel at a chair and began to pray to the Lord. I do not recall what melancholic need that prompted the following plea to the Lord, but, it was probably very similar to one of your calls, to our Savior. In the midst of my prayer I cried out softly to the Lord Jesus, “O Lord, ……, I sure wish I could see you, right now.” What I heard in my being came back so profoundly, so powerfully full of truth that I knew instantly that the Lord by His Holy Spirit had spoken and not the mind of this man. The Holy Spirit said, “I have put My Spirit in Joseph, I have put My Spirit in Debbie, I have put My Spirit in Rose. Behold your Master!” The names were some of those Christians that I had fellowshipped with that evening including my wife. In the Body of Jesus Christ, we are all members and servants of each other so that the Lord’s Body by His Spirit would not only serve itself in the unity of God’s Love for us, but also a world of lost souls.
If one understands that this is truth, then how do you judge your brothers and sisters born of faith, even the Seed, the Word of God, who sits in the pew next to you, or your brothers and sisters in the denominational church down the street? Is it by carnal eyes that judge on natural appearances? Or do you see with spiritually crucified eyes discerning that they are each the temple of the HOLY GHOST? If one lacks understanding in this matter, then it is better not to judge at all, less you censure and injure the LORD, Who is your Master and Judge!
This Holy Table of Communion transcends all denominations, and is where the family of God, clothed in humility and faith in the Word of God, comes together as one in Jesus (Yeshua) and His holiness!
“And they shall overcome the evil by the BLOOD of the LAMB, and the Word of their testimony, and they loved not their life unto the death.”
And this is their WORD of testimony:
”It is no longer we that live, but Christ Jesus Who lives within us.”
And the Spirit and the Bride say, “COME”!
Hello watchful,
First let me say that this is not something I came up with. This was inspired by the Holy Spirit and I wrote as he led. Does that mean He dictated it word for word? NO.
My understanding is this: “Jesus is all about no compromise, you will find it nowhere in anything Jesus said or did.”
watchful wrote: “Generally our speech should be “full of grace and seasoned with salt”, but there may be times when the Holy Spirit might carry someone to be more emphatic or salty. For example, when John the Baptist was rebuking the Pharisees. However, I doubt he spoke that way to the penitent who were not enemies of the gospel. I also doubt he spoke to children that way.”
Yes this is the idea. Compassion and understanding are good, but not if it causes you to compromise the truth.
In other words Jesus did not change or hold back the words he was led to say. He was not swayed by what people were going to think, say or do because of it. If we are going to be like Jesus then we also need to get to the place where our human emotions don’t compromise or change the message.
“Much of it will ‘grate at our humanness’ and we may be tempted to not speak all we are told and therefore
become disobedient. Where do we draw the line?”
This is a reminder to the church that it not our job to soften or make more harsh any message that the Holy Spirit leads us to speak (or write). We are servants and we don’t always know what God’s ultimate purpose is for what He’s leading us to say/do. Think about the rich young ruler. Jesus was leading this man to release the hold that mammon (money $ things) had on him, for his own eternal good. Scripture says: “But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.” Jesus did not compromise what He said and find a more gentle or round-about way so as to spare the young man’s feelings.
watchful wrote: “I’m guessing you’re hinting that we should not hold back any part of the truth such as when talking to the Jews about the Saviour”
Not just the Jews but anyone, including family, friends, etc. It can be very easy to compromise when it’s someone close to us or that we like. Go far enough down the road of compromise and you end up with the ‘seeker friendly’, ‘politically correct’ church. It is not just about talking to the unsaved either, other Christians
can cause us to stumble into disobedience as well.
Where do we draw the line? It is a intended to inspire everyone to search themselves.
I hope this helps.
Stan
Dirk wrote:
“This topic has been broached several times on this new forum. Most have talked around it, sidestepped it, and in general, have ignore the topic JUST AS MUCH as most would ignore the man who has been sent!
So many will agree with the above words UNTIL the person they speak about actually shows up. Then this person is labeled, harsh, unloving, has a wrong spirit, mean, false, a deceiver, and even so far as heretic!
When will we learn? If a word, an article, a paragraph, etc offends us, do we ask God what is wrong with US or do we attack the writer?
Do we check and see if what is being said is scripturally accurate as far as GOD is concerned (not what we think but what GOD thinks) or do we find ways of discounting the man/woman or in some way believe or claim he/she is spouting heresy or false doctrine or has a wrong spirit so we do not have to listen to what he/she says?”
AMEN Dirk
“This is a reminder to the church that it not our job to soften or make more harsh any message that the Holy Spirit leads us to speak (or write).”
Amen, yes I see, Makkehelah, and so the answer to the question, ‘Where do we draw the line?’ is that we don’t (or shouldn’t), but that it’s always for Him to draw the line. He knows much better than we how His message needs to be delivered to the hearer.
I don’t agree with Dirk that scriptural accuracy is sufficient criteria to determine if someone is speaking by the Spirit, however. And with or without correct doctrine, personalities can get in the way.
The Gnostic heretics of the first century gained many converts. So did the later Arian heretics. Did
this make their rising up within the midst of the church “moves of God”? No! The Holy Spirit is still the
Spirit of truth. Until our Lord returns, and we rise up to meet Him in the clouds at the rapture – let us
remember His admonition to the faithful Philadelphian Church:
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall
come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast
what you have, that no one may take your crown.” (Rev 3:10,11 NKJV)
GOD IS TESTING FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD!!!!!
Remember – “He who endures to the end shall be saved.”
“Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.”
There are two types of “Christians” in the churches today: (1) Those who profess to believe the Bible, yet only obey that which they want to obey based on personal preference, bias, convenience, etc.; and (2) those who believe the Bible and seek diligently to obey all that Jesus commanded to New Testament believers. The group that picks and chooses what to obey and what not to obey must find like minded pickers and choosers who pick and choose what they pick and choose–thus, you have many denominations/groups of like-minded pickers and choosers. It is terribly hard to get anyone to leave their group. The only way is to get them to pick and choose different things, or become one of the believers who just seek to obey all Jesus taught through his Word. This faith and practice will be the same as that which the apostles handed to the first century churches.
I have found that those who obey all the New Testament are a small minority, but usually have wonderful fellowship, godly homes, and peace with God. I want to be in this group.
In order not to be deceived, the Word of God must be the SOLE AUTHORITY in our lives. In order for it to be the sole authority, we must surrender our will to it, and obey it without preferring one thing above another.
I Tim. 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.” NO BLIND ALLEGIANCE TO ANOINTED ONES!!!!
Gal. 1:8,9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Jude 3,4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Sadly, it is true that people claim to want a John the Baptist or Jesus – but don’t really like it when the servant actually shows up. This is especially true when the servant prophetically guts one of their pet doctrines.
In his article ‘Beyond Categories’ Art Katz writes: “The last and most deadly hiding place of self is not in our carnality but, as I so often say, in our spirituality. Until we recognize that, and are open to God’s dealings with us in that place, we will oppose God even in defending Him. What killed Him at the first, the zealous intent of defenders of the faith, purporting to protect the faith from seeming danger or the prospect of heresy, will kill Him again. The paradox is that in these last days, the potential for heresy is never more evident than now. How do we abandon ourselves to God and yet remain watchmen on the walls? It is a remarkable quandary of an ultimate kind. It is these ultimate, brain-breaking quandaries that can potentially open us into a dimension of God that we would not be required to find or to enter under any other circumstances.”
In the same article, Art goes on to say: “I do not want to demean doctrine; doctrine is truth. But there is something to which doctrine points – He who is the truth, the reality, the ineffable, unspeakable and ultimate reality of God Himself. God forbid that we should fall short of that glory, of that reality, and of that truth because we are satisfied with the truths about the truth. Is there anything more brittle and doctrinaire than someone who is equipped with a knowledge of the last days, who condemns the church as Babylon and celebrates an elitist type of sonship? ”
Brethren there is a word in Hebrew – it is SELAH. I mean to stop and ponder the word given.
Selah.
If your first reaction was “Yes, and thank God I am not one of those!” – you need to hit your knees, because your first reaction should be “Lord, is that what I’m doing?”
Understand – Truth is truth and doctrine is precious. But don’t be so sure that you have it all down pat, brethren – because I assure you that you don’t. No one does, save the Holy Spirit. Jesus, when He walked in human form, did only what He saw His Father doing. Are we that tuned in, that immediate?
If we have something we believe as a certainty, and one come along and pops our bubble, are they automatically our enemy? Or, is it possible that God sent them, because your belief had become an idol to you that needed to be toppled?
One of the hardest lessons I learned is that I can utterly disagree with someone and both of us can be God’s servants. That can happen in two ways. First because we are not all at the same place in our walk and God teaches His children as individuals. Second – and I know this may surprise some of you – because we are just plain imperfect.
The only man that ever walked this earth that got it all right the first time was Jesus.
So, don’t be so quick to ignore those who disagree with you. I don’t mean the gadflys, but those who recognize the path we are on. If we find wisdom in a person once, it behooves us to at least give serious consideration to what they say – even if they rub us the wrong way. Paul likely irritated Peter – and Barnabas irritated Paul.
Be safe and ask God – without deciding beforehand what the answer will be – and it just might surprise you. It also might save you from the possibly fatal mistake of ignoring a ‘John the Baptist.’
I completely agree Seraphah, and very mindful of the scripture which says, “If I think I know, I do not yet know as I ought.” Also, “for what do I have that I didn’t receive?”.. We should have no vested interest in any doctrine or way of thinking, really why would we when it’s the truth that sets us free, it’s in our best interests to find out if we’re making a mistake in any area – but there is a big problem when someone who might be trying to correct what they preceive to be an error is condemning, prideful and lacking love. I don’t know if you’ve ever run into some who delight to wield a baseball bat when a little fly swatter will do, and who treat God’s sincerely seeking children like enemies of the cross with put-downs and insults just because they differ on one or two points. There is also that there comes a point when this kind of injustice needs to be confronted or we become the one in the wrong for not speaking up.
There has been so much abuse in the churches and out of them, if you or anyone have any wisdom to share concerning how to distinguish between abuse and genuine God-sent rebuke/admonishment I would be grateful to hear it..
watchful – I don’t want to hijack the topic, so here is a link to download an .rtf file with some of my thoughts on Spiritual Abuse. Read it and contact me if you want to talk more.
http://downtown.vc/dl/SyjyWYcxBt/spiritual_abuse.rtf
A true prophetic preacher is a healer – not an abuser. A true prophetic preacher watches over the welfare of all the sheep – the timid, the cantankerous and the quiet ones as well as the ‘good’ ones. We must not lose sight of the needs of the broken and wounded in our zeal to preach the message.
Seraphah, thank you – when i tried the link, and then clicked on the document it said “File does not exist”…
http://www.mediafire.com/?m434xfvqtv6co7w
I have answered this question more than adequately before Tyrone.
You would be aware of the gravity of the situation facing the church if you had taken the time to read my comments as they show the extent of apostasy that has overtaken the church.
May I suggest you refer to any Bible commentary recommended by a reputable evangelical Bible College. I suggest Matthew Henry for starters.
Thanks anyhow Wayne, but the Lord made me aware of the gravity of the situation facing the church a few years ago now. Jesus is answering my question for me, which was not made out of theological curiosity, but for personal reasons of growth and overcoming and real-life need. All thanks and praise be to Him, He is alive and with us in our midst as we gather here, and He used Seraphah’s aticle to affirm and nail something for me personally that I didn’t have words for before. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony..as we have testimony of the truth being revealed and established in us we are to speak out our testimony of it, as the opportunity arises or calls for it..resting gratefully in the knowledge of His grace that as His growing children it’s ok to make mistakes and correct and adjust our understanding along the way, without condemnation, which we all need to do at times.
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Rom 15:6 so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 6:19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,
This is something the Lord taught me just recently here through another brother as we conversed..there is power in our testimony, in our living words that describe and testify of Him alive and working in our lives.
Amen “watchful”… :-)
Hi “Robert Glenn”, I really feel led to say that I was greatly blessed by your post above beginning “Perhaps, while we are being watchful of others…”, I felt the Lord wanted me to encourage you that this post had blessed me, All the best brother… :-)
Dear Andrew J. Horton,
Thank you for your much needed encouragement. Yesterday, Sunday started out badly, as my wife roused me from the bed to address a serious flow problem in our house dynamics. A few minutes later my physical body gave way to serious flaws in its flow dynamics and set the remainder of the day on watch. Hours later when the Lord gave His strength and when things settled down I came again to this discussion thread see if anyone might understand what I had placed here. There was one who did not walk over or side step the heart of that message. Your message alone was truly a God send and a true blessing to my spirit after a tough day. Thank you Brother Andrew J.
With much Love in Christ Jesus,
Robert Glenn
When we are guided by the Holy Spirit we stand in awe of HIS WORD and realize that we must NEVER permit our personal testimony, opinions or preferences to supercede the revealed Word of God.
Wayne, something worth meditating on: we overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony.
>>>>ON Jul 23rd 2010 Robert Glenn wrote:
If one understands that this is truth, then how do you judge your brothers and sisters born of faith, even the Seed, the Word of God, who sits in the pew next to you, or your brothers and sisters in the denominational church down the street? Is it by carnal eyes that judge on natural appearances? Or do you see with spiritually crucified eyes discerning that they are each the temple of the HOLY GHOST? If one lacks understanding in this matter, then it is better not to judge at all, less you censure and injure the LORD, Who is your Master and Judge!”<<<<
I understand and agree with you Robert Glenn. It is the heart that matters most.
There is, however, a caution as well. There has been a push by satan, the father of lies, to take this truth and use it by itself as a doctrine to attack anyone who tries to bring correction to those of the body who err from the faith. Forgetting "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins …" they wield 'judge not' as a cudgel to beat down anyone who disagrees.
Assuming that we are, indeed, Brethren, saved and sanctified by the Blood of Jesus Christ, we are all part of His body. But we are not all in the same place. Some are babes, some are elders – and ALL of us are still fighting the same battle in the flesh that Paul spoke of in Romans 7 and 8. Love of the brethren does not squash correction – it DEMANDS correction.
Communion is really very simple. All of us who are true believers 'eat and drink' the body and blood of Jesus Christ. We take in all He is and all He says and make it part of us. As we are in Him, we are also part one of the other – we 'commune' together, all part of the same vine, drawing our sustenance from the same holy root. Any outward expression of this is superfluous to that spiritual reality.
@watchful – don’t forget the last part of the verse, dear sister…”And they overcame him[satan] by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.”
‘Lives’ is a very all-encompassing word, don’t you think? All you think, do and say is part of your life. Are we willing to let ALL die for Him?
I read an Art Katz article that rocked me. My first reaction was “HUH?? That can’t be right!” But it is. I only caution that what he says is very deep – meat, not milk. But it is also very true.
@Robert Glenn – this goes with what you were saying, also.
http://artkatzministries.org/eating-from-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil/
We cannot speak of ourselves and expect to advance God’s cause. When we speak, it MUST be God speaking through us, or we fall short. THIS IS NOT OPTIONAL – “So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.” So, when we open our mouth we need to be sure it is God’s words and not our own. I have had God reword something I wrote to mean essentially the same thing and I was puzzled as to why. But He knows best, so I do what He wants – why doesn’t matter.
Lastly, in our response to what others say, when we get angry or offended, we first need to be ruthless in checking ourselves – it is my anger or God’s? If it is mine, I need to look at what was poked to provoke me, as this is often an issue I need to deal with.
There are a lot of self-appointed people running around being angry, rude, condemning and contentious while claiming to be a ‘John the Baptist.’ Such people are spiritual abusers and do much harm, especially to babes and those already wounded. Those kind of people no longer bother me much when they come at me (except when they start twisting my words or lying), but I do tend to step in when they come at someone else (and satan has used even that against me).
Being ‘led of the spirit’ is simple – but it is NOT easy. You simply let the Holy Spirit guide you – in spite of your emotions, pride, prejudices and human thoughts and reactions. Simple, huh?
Seraphah wrote:
“@watchful – don’t forget the last part of the verse, dear sister…”And they overcame him[satan] by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.”
‘Lives’ is a very all-encompassing word, don’t you think? All you think, do and say is part of your life. Are we willing to let ALL die for Him?”
It is actually more difficult to LIVE daily for the Lord than to die for Him.Unless of course, you are walking BY HIS SPIRIT. He ENABLES you daily to walk and live IN HIM and THROUGH HIM.
If you are killed it is a one time thing, and then it is over with. You are forever with the Lord if you are born again by His Spirit and have His holy seed residing in you.
Not everyone who says they are “His” has the holy seed in them.
Seraphah wrote:
“So, when we open our mouth we need to be sure it is God’s words and not our own.”
Btw, I am agreeing with your comments sister.
@watchful – don’t forget the last part of the verse, dear sister…”And they overcame him[satan] by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.”
Amen, yes sisters..my comments were in response to someone’s here who I thought would be blessed by an affirmation that his testimony IS of importance to speak out, yes in the flow of the Spirit as we have opporunity. That part of the verse is what kept coming to mind..it’s also something the Lord taught me just recently..
Dear Wayne,
You have it right! For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. 2nd Corinthians 4:5. Now, I am redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb. My old testimony is of the old man that was saved from the dung heap. Perhaps that old dung maybe interesting to some ears, but my new testimony by the grace of God is to be the same as Paul’s: “It is no longer I that lives, but Christ Jesus who lives within me and gave himself a ransom for a life that was dead.”
Dear Watchful,
There is a plurality of lively members in the Body of Jesus Christ, who have overcome the evil one by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of their plural testimony negates the I of the idolatry that is in self. Therefore, even thought the singularity of the hope of Christ in each one of us is true, I said in the unity of the Body of Jesus Christ: ”It is no longer we that live, but Christ Jesus Who lives within us.”
Dear Seraphah,
We understand together that the old root of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil remains in the flesh of all of humanity, whether we are saved or unsaved. In the flesh of our humanity we all choose of the good or the evil according to the idolatrous nature me, myself and I. We are all right in our own eyes, but God searches the hearts and knows the thoughts and imaginations of all of mankind.
You wrote:
All of what you said is marvelous, except “Communion is really very simple”. I wish that it were simple. In 1984 the Lord gave me two visionary dreams in one night that were lovely and yet powerfully portrayed the disparity of thoughts in both the Protestant tradition and the Catholic tradition, especially when compared to the heart of God. You wrote for our benefit: “we are also part one of the other – we ‘commune’ together, all part of the same vine, drawing our sustenance from the same holy root”. The truth of your statement, I saw in the visionary dreams when the Bread of Life became alive in my hands and it was as if I was being force fed the Bread of Life that would never come to an end. When I tried to share the visions with pastors they were not receptive because of their indoctrination into their tradition, whether it was Protestant or Catholic.
Our own flesh will deceive some of us, part of the time, and it will deceive some of us all of the time, but it will not deceive all of us all of the time. Sorry, I couldn’t resist overstating humanities flaws. One of the points that you seem to be making in your second piece is that even when we think we are doing the work of God, in our zeal to correct the wayward, we may step on budding flowers and crush them before they have a chance to bloom. I’ve made my own boners, especially when confronting pastors, who do not know what they should know.
The flesh of man, no matter how spiritual a person thinks that they are, remains a stumbling block to their own justification and sanctification. It is the New Covenant Blood of Jesus Christ when received in Spirit and Truth that sanctifies a heart in the love of God.
Robert Glenn
Wow, yes Robert, there’s something very deep about what you are saying, plurality – it reminds me of where two or three are gathered He is in the midst of us, and also everything needs to be established by two or three witnesses..the word of ‘their’ testimony..together we are His body..
Maybe this will add to what is being touched on with regard to ‘communion’, the body and blood of our Lord. In ancient Israel when the animals were sacrificed and burned on the altar, the people (or the priests on their behalf) ate of the cooked animal in order for the sacrifice to be applied to them…when we eat and drink the body and blood of our Lord, we examine ourselves and we sorrow that our sin made His sacrifice necessary – it is an active acknowledgement of our sin, as well as it is our active participation in and acceptance of the altar of His sacrifice by proxy, ie, the bread and wine accepted by the Father as representing Jesus’ body and blood. I don’t know whether this has anything to do with your visions and maybe you have more understanding of it, but somehow there is power in the communion table, His sacrifice is refreshed to us somehow..
When the Lord was delivering me from the paganism I had grown up with in Catholicsm, specifically with regard to Easter and Christmas, He showed me the passage of scripture that talks about us not being able to participate in a table of demons as well as the table of the Lord – the table of demons cancels out the table of the Lord (it was this word which caused me to repent and broke the bondage) in a similar way that we cannot serve both God and mammon.
Something to meditate on Watchful
When we are TRULY guided by the Holy Spirit we stand in awe of HIS WORD and realize that we must NEVER permit our personal testimony, opinions or preferences to supercede the revealed Word of God.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
The HOLY SPIRIT will ALWAYS confirm HIS WORD.
ANY Spirit which leads away from the Living (Jesus Christ) and Written Word of GOD (The BIBLE) is clearly NOT the HOLY SPIRIT.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
2 Peter 1:20
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation
I just feel led to post this scripture:
“Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.” (Eph 4:3 NIV)
Andrew J. Horton wrote:
“I just feel led to post this scripture:
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.” (Eph 4:3 NIV)”
I feel led to say that you are not hearing from God because God is telling me He is getting ready to bring His SWORD because the “church” at large, particularly in America, but all over the western world is ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL.
And there WILL NOT be unityand there wil not be peace until God has His say. God is coming against the GAME PLAYERS whether the hypocrites like it or not.
MOST of Christianity INCLUDING those who have come out of the institutional churches “think” that they are alright with God and that they “see” correctly.
Well they don’t. Because it is just one big HYPOCRITICAL RELIGIOUS game that MOST “christians” play-pretending to theselves AND to God that they “want” His will, YET they do not do what He says.
God calls THAT hypocrisy- pretending you are doing God’s will but in reality wanting and doing your OWN will cuz you “think” you know BETTER than God how to run your life,and then just covering up your hypocrisy with “religious” sounding lingo to assuage your guilty conscience, and to try and fool everyone else. He RATHER you be STONE COLD than a lukewarm hypocrite!
God sees it all.
He’d much rather people be brutally honest with Him rather than playing their hypocritcal “religious” games that they “say” they are not doing. God sees right through that. And He is coming to clean up the church and hunble His church.
So NO, it wil not be PEACE but a SWORD until His so called church finally WAKES UP and stops playing the hypocrite.
If you so called luke warm christians can’t stand for God now in truth and tranparency before Him,, what makes you think you are going to stand when things REALLY get bad????
God is demanding you make you choice now and stop your MAN PLEASING GAMES.
What’s MORE important: pleasing God or pleasing man?
“
Jesus did NOT come to bring PEACE, but a sword.
WHy do we always forget that passage?
a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk
“Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!” (Ps 133:1 KJV)…
“It is like the precious oil upon the head, Coming down upon the beard, Even Aaron’s beard, Coming down upon the edge of his robes.” (Ps 133:2 NASB)…
What the Lord’s been showing me recently “Heidi144″ is that “the Unity of the Spirit” is so powerful that the devil has done all he can for over 1900 years to stop it from being manifested in the Body of Christ…
“The anointing breaks the yoke” Isaiah 10:27 tells us:
“And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.” (Is 10:27 KJV)
What is this anointing? It is the anointing of unity:
“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matt 18:20 KJV)
If we are gathered in His Name, if we are fully surrendered to Him and open about what we are, who we are, where we are and completely transparent before Him in unity with our brothers and sisters who are also being completely transparent before Him and humble and receptive and teachable and surrendered to the Holy Spirit then Jesus will come and presence Himself in our midst and that is what I pray will happen in this forum, that Jesus would come and presence Himself in our midst.
That is also what I pray would happen in the Body of Christ as Jesus prayed and I believe is still praying from John 17.
What would happen if there was true humility and brokenness in the Body of Christ?
What would happen if we loved God so much that we didn’t care if we were misunderstood or trampled on or beaten down for our honest sharing?
What would happen if we laid down our lives in unity and allowed the Lord to test us and try us and see if there was any wicked way in us and lead us in the way everlasting?
What if we actually believed that our brothers and sisters were part of God’s hands and feet to conform us into the image of His Son?
What if we had such strong discernment that we could perceive when spiritual abuse was occuring and yet didn’t withdraw but just stood and waited for the Lord to speak and if He chose to to speak through our brothers and sisters?
God bless you “Heidi144″… :-)
God bless you “bondslave”… :-)
Andrew J. Horton, would you be “preaching” to Jesus about “unity” and “peace” when He was in the middle of overturning the money changers and the merchandizers in the temple which He called HIS house???
Guess you don’t get it. Jesus was furious! He CARES about His church, His house, and He cares about her CONDITION! And He cares that it doesn’t REPRESENT Him!
And right now Andrew J., Jesus is FURIOUS with his church today!
Are you going to hand Him a daisy and say “peace, peace” to Him right now???
His sword of judgment is about to be laid to the root right now and MOST are asleep in His church. His message is it WILL NOT BE BUSINESS AS USUAL IN HIS CHURCH! He cannot allow it!
His people who are called by His name are KILLING themselves with their phony “peace” messages and nicey-nicey bull crap.
CHRISTIANS are going to Hell in a handbasket and people are just saying “peace and unity”. And when someone steps up and speaks what God is REALLY saying in this hour, everyone says “oh we can’t have that. We don’t want your hard message of truth Jesus- we want are nice sounding , ear tickling messages that don’t make us have to CHANGE otr behavior or conform ourselves to HIM!
JUDGMENT is coming! And as I said MOST are asleep! Including those who are not IN the “institutional” church. People don’t realise how serious Jesus is about the FALSE and the HYPOCRISY in His body. Well wake up!
Either those who call themselves are going to be SOLD OUT to Him 100% , or they are going to fall away completely. But there is NO middle ground right now. It really is HEAVEN or HELL that Jesus is speaking! Make your choice now WHOM you will serve!
Otherwise, as He said in His word, He will vomit you out of His mouth! Do you think He was joking when He said that?????
Hi “Heidi144″, Jesus is not furious with those who are trusting Him for their salvation and who are sheltering under His shed Blood – Christ our Passover – to save them and who are not trusting in their own righteousness but His…
Jesus is not furious with those who love Him with all their heart, soul, strength and mind and who love their neighbour as themselves and long for all those who know the Lord to be one and to be a powerful demonstration of Himself to everyone who comes in contact with them…
Things are dark but in prayer the Lord has shown me that there is a breakthrough coming, yes, the spirits which have invaded the so called church will be shown up for what they really are, how? by a demonstration of the true power of God which is in unity…
We overcome him, the devil, by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony and we do not love our lives unto death…
Respectfully, is that your personal position today “Heidi144″? By the grace of God is it mine…
Through my experiences in intercession when the Lord brings me to a deeper personal experience of His righteousness it humbles me, it makes me “quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry” as the scripture says, again respecfully, could I please ask you, what is your personal experience of intercession to date “Heidi144″?
“And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them,
The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.” (Num 6:22-27 KJV)
God bless you “Heidi144″… :-)
Andrew J. Horton wrote:
“Hi “Heidi144″, Jesus is not furious with those who are trusting Him for their salvation and who are sheltering under His shed Blood – Christ our Passover – to save them and who are not trusting in their own righteousness but His…
Jesus is not furious with those who love Him with all their heart, soul, strength and mind and who love their neighbour as themselves and long for all those who know the Lord to be one and to be a powerful demonstration of Himself to everyone who comes in contact with them…”
With all due respect Mr. Horton, Jesus would like to know why you, being from New ZEALand are not sharing in the same ZEAL for His HOLY NAME that this sister is, and WHY you would want to take a passive way of “love and daisies” instead of letting His fire CONSUME you to your very soul with His purposes???
He IS most certainly FURIOUS with those who SAY they love Him with their all their heart,mind soul and strength, but are in fact LUKEWARM instead of RED HOT and ZEALous for His HOLY NAME!
Jesus is NOT looking for those who simply give Him LIP SERVICE and say the right words, but He wants TRUE disciples who Have His Holy Spirit annd will display His PASSION and POWER and AUTHORITY to a LOST and DIEING WORLD!
In FACT the Lord is throwing down the gauntlet to you Mr. Horton from NEW ZEALAND and all others from New ZEALAND who read this message and He is challenging you to LET HIM CONSUME YOU with HIS HOLY FIRE!!!
AND if YOU will not take up the CHALLENGE GIVEN BY THE LORD, He will find someone else who WILL because New Zealand wasn’t named New ZEALand for no good reason!
The LORD is saying that lovey dovey daisy time is OVER and now is a time for WAR!!!! Spiritual WAR in the heavenlies!
PLAYTIME is OVER says the LORD!! Are you going to fight this spiritual battle with EVERYTHING that is IN YOU GIVEN BY THE LORD???? And not be HALFHEARTED about it???
It is ALL OF JESUS and FOR JESUS or it is NONE OF JESUS! YOU take your pick! You can’t walk the fence and expect Him to back you up! YOU are to be TOTALLY SOLD OUT or you will have NONE of Him!
Are YOU going to take up that challenge from the Lord Andrew J. Horton,from New ZEALand, or are you going to let the Lord CHOOSE someone else?????”
THAT was just a message FROM the LORD to you AND to NEW ALL other ZEALanders who read this message!
And Andrew J. Horton: You tell me then-
If the Lord is not encouraging you, why did He wake me up at 3 am to give that message to you and to your fellow New ZEALanders???
I was sound asleep in bed! I like my beauty rest!
Would He not want to encourage His people with His WORD?
I’d listen to Him if I was you!
Hi “Heidi144″, the Lord knows my heart and I am at peace with the Lord in the midst of the storm in the heavenly realms, I am not afraid, I know what the Lord has spoken to me personally about my call and I know that He will bring it to pass in His perfect timing… :-)
It may well be that there is a “new zeal” coming to New Zealanders, I pray so – that speaks to me of revival. But I believe there are hurdles to overcome first, unless the Lord overcomes it all in one fell swoop of His Spirit. There are things in the spirit that the New Zealand church needs to become aware of and overcome – such things as fear, Jezebel, “humanism” in our thinking and behaviour, historical sins to be repented of, perhaps even sins related to gender, etc. ( New Zealand to me seems to have a similar spirit as Canada in some respects – perhaps the fall-out of colonialism, but that’s another topic.) But if we didn’t have problems to overcome, we wouldn’t need to be here, would we – the whole point is to overcome as He overcame, showing us the way and going before us. Different people have different battles, some greater or lesser than others, but the Lord knows the battles we face – for His sake.
I honestly didn’t pick up on a spirit of encouragement here, but more of other kinds. I’ve found at times when the Lord was speaking to me that I would have a tendency to attach my own “stuff”, my own assumptions and judgments, feelings, knowledge, etc, rather than rest in Him and leave all judgment in His hands, because truly I only know in part, and I don’t know all the struggles and battles and details of another’s life, or of a church or group. Possibly something similar has happened here as well. When I have experienced the Lord’s rebuke, He has done it as a good parent for my sake, not the way a child might point their fingers at a sibling caught in some misdeed about to be disciplined and saying, “uuummmm…”, and haven’t we all been there at some time or other. It’s so true that we do need to get those planks out of our eyes first and put aside self – the plank is our own judgments, it blinds us to God’s heart and spirit towards a person or situation and their little speck, and blocks His power which is inseparable from His love because He IS love. No, not the sentimental kind, but the kind that is able to open wounds and bring healing and comfort without doing more damage, the kind that is able to unveil an error and evoke heart-felt remorse without condemnation but with an open-armed invitation to restoration.
Watchful wrote:
“I honestly didn’t pick up on a spirit of encouragement here, but more of other kinds. I’ve found at times when the Lord was speaking to me that I would have a tendency to attach my own “stuff”, my own assumptions and judgments, feelings, knowledge,”
Well that’s YOU then….
And unfortunately you are not hearing the VOICE of the Lord OR the message because your attitude is EXACTLY the PROBLEM.
Because God spoke a message to New ZEALand and to Andrew J.
That you think you have NO NEED to hear or recieve the “truth” because you have it all together and you are already in God’s “camp”- and you don’t realise that you are miserable,poor, blind and naked and in need of NOTHING”
Sound familiar?
God’s love IS His rebuke.And that was HIS rebuke.
But His “church” ain’t gettin’ it! And therefore people have to grab at straws and look for EXCUSES and blame the messenger instead of taking the message from the LORD to heart in humility and asking “What are you saying to ME Lord through this?”
I COULD be many doing other things. But the message and the Spirit compels me.
Ah, but when you are in need of NOTHING, then you can’t “hear” the message…..and look for an “out” as a way of denying the truth.
Church, at large and on the forum,your house wll be left to you desolate….Jesus is trying to warn and you are rejecting His warning. So you are showing Him that is your “choice”.
“I have experienced the Lord’s rebuke, He has done it as a good parent for my sake, not the way a child might point their fingers at a sibling caught in some misdeed about to be disciplined and saying, “uuummmm…”, and haven’t we all been there at some time or other”
And the Lord is saying that THIS attitude is ANOTHER BIG problem with His church…
That the church EXPECTS for the Lord God Almighty to “speak” to them on their OWN terms and NOT on God’s terms!
Well I have news for you…..God DOESN’T operate by OUR dictates! And by how WE THINK He should operate!
He is the LORD! He can do what ever He pleases, and instead, the church “thinks” they can snap their puny little fingers and think that God will come to them because of what “THEY” say and want!
Well, it doesn’t work that way! You either accept God on HIS terms, or do not accept Him at ALL!
But DON”T try to conform Him into you OWN image of your OWN making! That is what “his people” are trying to do…put God into a box of their OWN making instead of accepting Him and what He is saying on HIS OWN TERMS!
Revival WILL NOT COME until God Himself is ready to come…and there is NOTHING us puny little humans can do about it!
But the wise thing to do is get your life lined up with what HE WANTS in the meantime, and make sure you are totally sold out to Him completely, so that when He comes in visitation, YOU will be ready and YOU will not miss it!
But if you think God is going to come to you on YOUR terms, then you are sadly mistaken!
As I wrote earlier by the Spirit, it is a time of WAR! Spiritual WAR and God is done “reasoning” with His wayward people.!
It is either HIS WAY or NO WAY! There is nothing in between!
We live in a post modern society that deals in relativism and totally “misses” the concept of “absolutism”. It tries to “reason’ everything away till everything is totally diluted and of no good use.
In other words, a society and a church that has completely lost it’s SALT!
The CHURCH has become of no good USE to the Lord! That’s why His axe has been laid to the root!
And THAT’S the message God is speaking right now to those “who have an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying”:
You are either FOR HIM and HIS WAYS COMPLETELY OR….
……You are AGAINST HIM COMPLETELY. There is NO MIDDLE GROUND ANYMORE and God is saying “MAKE YOUR CHOICE”!!!