LEE GRADY SLAMS the “UNTOUCHABLES”
SAY GOODBYE to the UNTOUCHABLE PREACHERS – by J. Lee Grady. [-extracts]
God is shaking His church and removing corruption. But we share the blame for giving charlatans a platform… There is no way we can know how many unbelievers rejected the gospel because they saw the church supporting quacks who swaggered, bragged, lied, flattered, bribed, stole and tearfully begged their way into our lives – while we applauded them and sent them money…
I hate to compare any minister of God to a gangster. But the sad truth is that today there are a handful (well, maybe more) of unscrupulous preachers who share some of Capone’s most disgusting traits. They are notoriously greedy. They are masters of deception and manipulation. They have bought their way into the charismatic religious subculture and used their uncanny hypnotic ability to control major Christian TV networks.
And, like Capone, their days are numbered. Justice will soon catch up with them.
We were the gullible ones. When they said, “The Lord promises
you untold wealth if you will simply give a thousand dollars right
now,” we went to the phones and put the donations on our credit
cards. God forgive us.
We were the undiscerning ones. When they said, “I need your
sacrificial gift today so I can repair my private jet,” we didn’t ask
why a servant of God wasn’t humble enough to fly coach class to
a Third World nation. God forgive us.
We were the foolish ones. When it was revealed that they
were living in immorality, mistreating their wives or populating
cities with illegitimate children, we listened to their spin doctors
instead of demanding that ministry leaders act like Christians.
God forgive us.
We were the naïve ones. When they begged for $2 million more in
donations because of a budget shortfall, we didn’t feel comfortable
asking why they needed that $10,000-a-night hotel suite. In fact,
if we did question it, another Christian was quick to say, “Don’t
criticize! The Bible says, Touch not the Lord’s anointed!’” God
forgive us.
We have treated these charlatans like Al Caponeas if they
were untouchableand as a result their corruption has spread
throughout charismatic churches like a plague. Our movement
is eaten up with materialism, pride, deception and sexual sin
because we were afraid to call these Bozos what they really are
insecure, selfish, egotistical and emotionally dysfunctional.
If we had applied biblical discernment a long time ago we could
have avoided this mess. There is no way we can know how many
unbelievers rejected the gospel because they saw the church
supporting quacks who swaggered, bragged, lied, flattered, bribed,
stole and tearfully begged their way into our liveswhile we
applauded them and sent them money.
When well-meaning Christians quote 1 Chronicles 16:22 (“Do not
touch My anointed ones, and do My prophets no harm,” NASB)
to cover up corruption or charlatanism, they do horrible injustice
to Scripture. This passage does not require us to stay quiet when
a leader is abusing power or deceiving people.
On the contrary, we are called to confront sin in a spirit of love
and honestyand we certainly aren’t showing love to the church
if we allow the charismatic Al Capones of our generation to
corrupt it.
READ FULL ARTICLE-
http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/fire-in-my-bones/29039–say-goodbye-to-the-untouchable-preachers
-J. Lee Grady is contributing editor of Charisma and author of the
new book ‘The Holy Spirit Is Not for Sale’.
All I can think is WOW and AMEN!
I don’t know what ministers you are talking about. It seems that you can go on the internet and see that everyone is a false teacher or heretic according to someone’s opinion.
I find this confusing……………why not name them?
Thank you,
I think there’s a lot more people who knew that these TV preachers/prophets were charletans than Mr. Grady admits. So much of it was obvious from the start, going back to Jimmy Swaggart and Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. They are showmen and children of hell and a lot of us saw it a long time ago. We didn’t send them money and we didn’t cheer them on. We spoke out against them and we admitted to our unbelieving friends that we did not believe they were sent from God.
Sorry, but you can’t just include everyone in “we”.
I forgive Lee Grady, and the Lord also forgives him too.
They are what he says. Gangsters, scam artists, and devils indeed. That one popov guy, i watched one night while his wife’s devil was in the forefront, the frothing of her mouth and contorted face.
Keep away from these guys folks, lest a worse evil come on you. Pay no mind to seducing spirits.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
love,
Sarah
It is one thing to be the prince of fools. What does that say about the people who made him prince?
We are the problem. The pulpit is merely a reflection of ourselves.
The reality is, leaders are held to more accountability than the sheep. Paul said that leaders should be REBUKED BEFORE ALL, that others MAY FEAR. That does not sound like “touch not the lord’s annointed” to me, does it to you? The very idea that leaders are untouchable is absurd. The only requirement is that you do not falsely accuse them, and that you have 2-3 witnesses to attest to their corruption when you do accuse them. This was laid out in the LAW, and is laid out again in the NT. David not touching Saul had nothing to do with rebuking leaders. It had to do with respecting God’s anointed, not standing by and saying nothing about their corruption. You can respect someone, and also rebuke them, they are not mutually exclusive.
You want some names? Okay, Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, Bob Jones, etc, etc, etc. Man, most of the names escape me now because it’s been so long since I have even seen them on TV.
I don’t believe Todd Bentley, for one, even started out good. If you’ve ever heard his testimony, his focus was always the same as Simon the sorcerer, it was about signs and wonders.
Thank you for sharing this information. I find Lee Grady is telling the truth. I have sat under some of these false prophets and teachers and let me tell you…they know how to twist the word of God well! And talke about the mind control!!! In these last days one of the best gifts we can ask the Lord for is discernment, and the wisdom to go with it. It has taken me several years to shake off this twisted truth and get right before the Lord. Everyday, I thank Him so much for deliverance and His mercy. Thank you so much Father, I am so glad you help us. You have warned us.
I think Todd Bentley started “young and immature” and that crowd ruined him for life.
I am in agreement with Stephen. We anoint our leaders. No matter how Lee objects, he (and all of us) have been the source of the problem. This whole mess of Christianity has nothing to do with Christ. The Lord Jesus is doing His work, and He does it as He always has, in quietness and humility, without fanfare. What did our Lord say to the Pharisees? They’ve received their reward, having trumpeted their celebrity and made a mockery of God and His Word.
It is time, not for more grand pronouncements from celebrity “Christian” leaders about how they’re going to clean up this mess, but it is time for all who claim Christ to forsake their own ideas and plans and programs and movements, and to learn what Jesus’ true disciples know–that it is all Christ, and none of our own doing. He is our boasting, He is our love, and we must have His interests only at heart.
It is time for our leaders to emulate not only our Lord Jesus Christ, but His apostles, who showed us the Way of Christ as leaders. That is, humility, purity, holiness, love, perseverance through trials, courage in the face of danger, and love for Christ and His people so deep they were willing to be murdered for His sake.
It is time for our leaders to step down, to dissolve their huge ministries, and to humbly bow to Christ, and show us Christ in themselves. True prophets stood alone, and many died for what they spoke. Where in this mess are the true men of God?
Where is the Daniel, the Joseph, the Jeremiah? Where is the Paul, the Peter, the John? We have many others through the centuries to look at for examples of Christ-like living. Men and women who suffered for their Savior, and didn’t live like celebrities and kings at the expense of the sheep.
I denounce all false prophets who do not proclaim the simple, unadulterated Word of God, with the authority and power of Christ behind them. There is no other Word worthy of being spoken.
May we be willing to give up our modern, fantabulous Christianity for the sake of Christ!
May His love and power through the Holy Spirit be in us today!
A. Brother
it seems that people are a little upset at this writing thus far – at least that is what it appears to be. I think Lee Grady spelled it out even without naming the names. It is God’s hands and God will do the condemning and the tearing down and whatever else He sees appropriate to do with these people.
As far as the “we” no one should take offense. If you are not involved, if you never watched or even gave money than you don’t need to comment or give an opinion. What matters is that many folks have been fooled by these people. Many and those are the ones we should be praying for , as they realize that the idols are coming down, many will lose faith because the faith was built on deceit and on what they were saying. Twisting words of the bible and telling stories of “miracles, signs, and wonders and people hoped to have a healing , a miracle .
Yes, it is coming down and those that gave will come down also. One who believes in Word of Faith will be shattered and I pray that those hearts don’t get hardened and that they will truly come to the Lord and repent and start clinging to the true vine – The Lord.
I think we all know someone that has fallen into the traps of these people and maybe didn’t say anything to them. Maybe because they would not listen or maybe because it would ruin their friendship , their family , their loved ones hope.
We all go around the block with something. No one is perfect and everyone has to learn. The Lord will open the eyes of those that are willing to give up the idols . And search HIM. We can not fault these people because they were “taught” by someone they trusted. God understands and we must also.
I speak from experience. I have been around the block and I did it because I thought it was “the right way” . We all have tapes, cd’s, books and things that we once thought was right and found out later that the person writing it was wrong or led astray. Even great teachers who thought they had it correct have misled people.
Face it we are a product of people that have learned from others before we learned and heard from the Lord.
Let’s show a little compassion for those that got caught in the web of deceit and went to those crusades, watched christian television, and gave their last dollar at times.
Andrew Said:
I think Todd Bentley started “young and immature” and that crowd ruined him for life.
Hence Paul saying not to allow “novices” to be leaders. It is very important to be mature, both in the Lord, and naturally, before you are a leader.
Oh! Oh! What a beauty for once we have the Elliot Ness to deal with the Capone family!
Well written and said but like the Capone gang time to be direct not infere!
But I know and thank you for this great article!
Blessings!
” There is no way we can know how many
unbelievers rejected the gospel because they saw the church
supporting quacks who swaggered, bragged, lied, flattered, bribed,
stole and tearfully begged their way into our lives—while we
applauded them and sent them money.”
I would also like to add that these false preachers, teachers, pastors and prophets will attract those of like mentality, including those who on the outside who do not want to live a life of holiness, either. It goes hand in hand with those who believe “you can loose faith and not loose your salvation”(Yes, a pastor actually said that). It takes someone who is truly searching for the ways of Christ, and not the ways of the person in the pulpit, to endure.
1 Cor 5 — Time to clean up and purify the Bride !!
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! Now that the air has been cleared, Lord move upon the hearts of the ministers who walk in this deception and may they repent. Thank you Lord for purifying the pulpit and your church once more!
I once worked for one of these ministries as the “personal assistant” to the big-name personality. What I witnessed was enough for me to pack up and leave in the middle of the day, never going back to pick up my last paycheck. My family was put at risk, our children sorely affected, and our lives drastically altered, even to the extent that I was “picked up” by the FBI at my next place of employment when the investigation into the personal activities of this “personality” ensued.
I appreciate Andrew Strom for sharing excerpts of Lee Grady’s article. What I’ve read in the other responses is absolutely true … when we have put these men on a pedestal and worshipped them with our lack of discernment and blind obedience, we are the ones to blame for the false representation of true Christianity they have been to the world.
We either stop and repent for chasing after charismatic (not intended to be interpreted as “spiritual gifts”) personalities and giving them honor, or we bear the blame for what and who they have become.
A true believer will live with discernment. It’s a gift of the Holy Spirit. Chasing after someone whose life and testimony fail to give glory to the Lord Jesus Christ, and Him alone, is not something we, as believers, should be doing. Our pursuit must be of God and God alone, through repentance, humility, and commitment.
What bothers me more than anything is that the world now looks at Christians through the lens of the Todd Bentley’s and Benny Hinn’s. What a travesty!
Lord, forgive us for seeking anything and anyone but You!!!
Such sad truth in this post :-( Yet, somehow, God uses even the worst of them to reach some for Christ, and we can know that one day those who have deliberately misled the sheep will stand before God.
Even heavier on my heart today is the list of Pastors and Christian ‘leaders’ , many well -known and formerly respected by me and many others, who just signed a letter of outreach to Muslim leaders, and in this letter they affirm Allah as the same as our Father God. I cannot wrap my mind or soul around equating the God Almighty of Christianity with the Allah of Islam as being the same ‘person’, when Islam rejects the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and denies the Holy Spirit. I pray for all people to come to the Truth, no matter what their espoused ‘religion’, but am stunned when people seek to homogenize core beliefs inconsistent one with the other.
I think this is an excellent article and long overdue in the Christian world. In my early Christian walk I was caught up in the Faith Movement (name it claim it) because I hadnt read the bible for myself and didnt understand the principals that God would have us live by. Praise God He opened my eyes and I am now serving the Lord in Israel, a very tough place to be.
I was just reading about Benny Hinn and his request a few days ago for a donation of $2 million dollars. Im sorry if this offends people but he has lived an incredibly luxurious life for many years (along with many others as Lee has suggested) and I personally know people who have gone without to support his ministry and lifestyle.
I know we are called not to judge people but I believe we need to be discerning and pray for these people as God is the ultimate judge. However, I have avoided all these so called mega ministries for many years because whilst there may have been fruit I believe many people have been led astray due to the deception of riches. I also agree with Jan Ross that the world looks at Christians through the likes of Benny Hinn, Todd Bentley and also people like Joel Osteen (motivational and secular humanistic message).
Yes, God is shaking the church and dealing with corruption. Who ever “they” are I would have to say that the blame goes on the false teacher himself or ministry itself. They will have to take an account when they stand before the Lord. As far as the “gullible ones”, and those who gave to the cause, they made their choice. But you can’t assume that all Christians gave to these ministry’s. Not to boast, but to make the point, I have never sent a dime to these types of folks. Ever since the PTL Club, and all of us from back then remember what happened with that ministry, there has been abuse in these areas. I believe there are others who have not given in to the plea (“bowed the knee”). As for those who did, some gave from their heart thinking they were doing the right thing, and some maybe from immaturity. By biggest concern has been the poor old ladies giving their social security checks and not having enough to pay the rent (my grandmother was one of them). God has special concern and care for those who have been “caused to stumble”. This brings me to my main point. Al Copone was repsonsible for what Al Copone did. If you are to place blame please place it on Mr. Copone himself! “They that are teachers receive the strickter judgement”! And don’t forget the milestones!
Humm. I suppose I will surprise most – - . To me, the condemnation is too general – - so would clip virtually everyone. If this is what the author intended, then – - that is of course his right… but – -
I would also say, that there are a LOT of good men out there, that – - out of LOVE, are perhaps cutting a bit close to the edge… so are indirectly promoting things they do not believe.
Again however, I say – - they are doing this out of true Godly LOVE.
Hence, for these – - I have no condemnation at all. I believe this group truly ARE anointed by God. So I would side with David, even though Saul is hunting him. I would myself, wish to error on the side of caution… and not raise my voice or hand towards one of God’s annointed.
Yes, it would be nice to be able to see man’s heart and to know which one was laughingly fleecing God’s sheep, but – - I am to stupid to wish to start pointing fingers without evidence.
Has anyone actually heard some specific Preacher laughing about living the good life while his sheep starve?
Bert
Amen and Amen!
When we, the body of Christ, become alive again in a real relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ and the Father, and know at least the elementary priciples of the doctrine of Christ, Hebrews 6:1-2, Hebrews 5:12…that is when we will be able to discern good from evil.
Driven by our lusts we have made many golden calves (preachers, evangelists, pastors, apostles, prophets, money, job, church,,etc……)that we have worshipped. A people that does not know their God will eventually manufecture their own. We have ‘copied and pasted’ teachings so many times that we don’t even remember what the original text really is saying about the oracles of God. Our pastors have taken doctrine from their pastor and their pastor has taken from their pastor and their pastor from their pastor and the list goes on. We have been lazy to gather up our own manna given from God instead we have taken maggot eaten manna from our idols…..We for the most part in the western church have been dead in the eyes of God and His call to us is to ‘Arise from the dead and get REAL!’
The sad part is…he will get what he asks for. His sycopohant followers are so BLINDED they will steal to send money to him. I have about had it with his followers. They are the ones that keep Benny spreading lies about Christ, and the scriptures in order to be filthy rich. Without his followers he would dry up and blow away like dog do. I sincerely hope everyone reading this has the boldness to speak out to those that you know support Benny and let them know what a disservice they are doing to the kingdom of God and how they are supporting the empire of the Anti-Christ. It is up to all of you who read this…to not shy away from telling friends and neighbors that Benny is demonic. ..and is tearing down the truth (if that were possible) of the Gospel and…. to support Benny Hinn is to support Satan. If you do not share the truth about Benny with those who you know are supporting him…then you allowing your friends to continue in a false doctrine, which through TBN and GodTV and Daystar, furthers the “mixture” of truth and lies NEEDED to establish the reign of the Anti-Christ. If they “HEAR” you great…if not you’ve done your job. But to be scared or intimidated is not an option….we will also be accountable.
Wow! I don’t think it hard to realize who those are that fit this category. Yet, some good information comes from many. We need to know Scripture enough to tell the difference. There are numerous deceptions around us, and not all in prospeeriy teaching, and placing guilt on us to give, and give, to them. Word of faith is good in the correct use based on Scriptural teaching. We receive Christ by faith, healing by faith, the Holy Spirit by faith, and apply the word of God in our lives by faith. It is when we think by denying something exists in our lives, be it illness, financial need, or failure, and think denying is faith, that we are not only deceived, but lie. We use our faith in God and His word to overcome these situations, and press on to victory. Another area of deception and danger is predestination theology. If this teaching is true, Christ died in vain, and God must award the most wicked, even Satan, for doing what He predestined them to do. Be aware, and know God’s word!
Please, let us all not forget that the Chief Shepherd is still on the thrown! Be still and know that He is God!! These things must come to PASS, the Scripture tells us. God knows and sees all; He is coming for His bride (SOON). And we, (His Bride) is alive and well, hidden in the palm of His hands (sealed), regardless of the heresy of this hour. He is about to send the last and Greatest Awakening for the cleansing of this nation, (and others); the rest will be up to us as individuals. His true prophets are about to emerge on the scene, with purity of heart, humility, and sincere holiness. The genuine sheep that are truly seeking the God of Abraham…will find Him, with certainty. We, the true church should be praying for the genuine Apostles and Prophets that about to emerge. They will have to confront these evil forces that are currently opperating.
I am an International Evangelist and I have gone out into the world and seen incredible miracles of the Living Lord including a dead baby raised from the dead in my last trip to Kenya. The story is on my website. I travel the cheapest way because I need too to save money as these trips are very expensive and the more I put into the people there is more important. My ministry runs on fumes, because I take my needs to the Lord and He supplies as He desires. I have traveled to many of the poorest places on earth, walked in some of the dirtiest slums and slept in questionable beds and been in danger many times. It is to take up the cross of Jesus and follow Him across the world is the most precious and wonderful privilege to the believer. I weep for the church in the west, who have followed a gospel of ease and comfort. Ease and comfort is not what Jesus promised us. It is the itching ear syndrome that is much of the reason for the charlatan in the pulpit. In many countries where the church is flaming with His presence and power I will be allowed in the largest churches in the land, but come back to America, I get into the churches of 20. Pastors here don’t allow any ministry that is not their own, their church of denomination. The call it protection, but the Lord calls it a “strange sickness” where He is not invited in and the pastors are merely trying to “manage image”. Oh God please forgive us all who have your name, but don’t act like you. We are at fault and we wish to address our sins before you. Lord, cleanse, Lord forgive, Lord restore!! Amen and amen.
I worked for a large christain tv network in the fundraising department and it is no different then a business.
The evanalist spent and wasted money on stuff that had no eternal value at all – it made me sick – I no longer call myself a christian.
I CAN REMEMBER SEVERAL YEARS BACK ( EVEN IN THOSE DAYS ) BEING QUESTIONED BY FOLKS ( SOME RELATIVES ) ABOUT LESS THAN HONEST , SHADY PREACHERS! I WOULD EXPLAIN THAT THERE ARE THEIVES IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE, BE IT POLICE, POLITICS, TEACHERS, BUSSINESS, ETC. AND NOT TO JUDGE THE WHOLE BECAUSE OF A FEW. THEN YOU WOULD SEE SOME GUYS KEEP REAPPEARING AFTER GETTING CAUGHT DOING SOMETHING WRONG AND THEN CAUGHT AGAIN, DOING THE SAME THING AND WHIMPERING AND CRYING ASKING FOR …ANOTHER …CHANCE ! I CAN SEE FORGIVENESS BUT NOT COMING BACK TO PREACHING, ESPECIALLY ON TV ! NON OR SEMI-BELIEVERS SEE THIS STUFF BEFORE THEY SEE ANYTHING ELSE…WHAT DO YOU TELL THEM AFTER ALL THIS ?
Thank God for this article! It confirms some things I have been praying about.
I too had to repent of sitting under such people and accepting some of what they taught, and keeping quiet about the truth. What really brought me out of the corrupted movement was a health crisis, during which God was very faithful and stayed close to me. However, I was too weak to put up a curtain and too lacking in “supernatural power” to transport it into place as I should have been able to do if my former teachers & preachers had been correct about living in “the supernatural realms of heaven.”
Now I wouldn’t want to touch those “anointed” people with a 10-foot pole, even a nice light one.
Anyway, God bless everyone who cares about God and His people enough to expose corruption!
Bert, it is happening all around us. Our pastors live in mansions drive beautiful new cars, have designer clothes on and eat out each day…while there are sheep in the congregation that have not a place to stay, have no transportation, no clothes, no food, no electricity…all they get is a lecture or come to this class and be blessed. Let’s shine the Word of God against this, see what the Lord says about it…. Acts 4:32-35…and we, as the Christians suppose to judge each other. Don’t judge the world and judge one another 1 Corinthians 5. By their fruits you will know them….the list goes on and on again of how far the body has strayed from the Lord and His commandments. But we mostly have no one to raise up with authority and declare apostacy and heresies in the body of Christ and now everyone wants to be politically correct!!!! Come on, let’s get back to the scriptures and not opinions of men!
It all started with the false teaching of greed (also referred to as “prosperity”). They even said Jesus was rich when he was on earth! They even sold healing, while denying that you could buy it, they promised great blessings for those who donated, at the same time (e.g. Hinn). Subtly affirming the very thing he was denying. Joyner dragged Bentley back on stage after he consolidated adultery and called that consolidation ‘marriage’ and ‘restoration’.
O, I suddenly realize I’m using past tense, but it’s still going on. It’s time for us to awake and to repent.
Mia d…..Good word.
I think Mr. Grady was SOFT describing the reality of LYING PROPHETS AND TEACHERS.
Instead of naming psychological excuses that are so prevalent these days……do as Jesus and His disciples did….NAME THE SINS!
Doesn’t anyone CALL OUT THE SINS THAT ARE NAMED IN SCRIPTURE ANYMORE?
NO WONDER THERE IS NO REPENTANCE!
People do not know what is a sin ….what is unGodly.
And ….while I’m at it…why in God’s name do we believe what people tell us? God calls people liars and tells us to put our trust and belief in Him alone.
IF WE BELIEVE AND TRUST IN PEOPLE, THEN IT IS OUR FAULT! BECAUSE THAT IS NOT WHAT SCRIPTURE TELLS US TO DO!
IT IS A LIE OF SATAN THAT WE MUST BELIEVE PEOPLE AND TRUST THEM IN ORDER TO LOVE THEM!
READ Jeremiah 17:5-10….”THUS SAYS THE LORD…..”
I CHALLENGE EVERYONE TO ASK GOD TO “TEAR DOWN THE LIES THAT THEY BELIEVE…..AND REPLACE ALL MAN’S TEACHINGS WITH HIS TRUTH”
THE LIES ARE SUBTLE….THEY SOUND SO RIGHT…BUT THEY ARE DEADLY AND LEAD TO BONDAGE; DARKNESS; THE LORD’S DISCIPLINE IN THIS LIFE; AND A LOSS OF WHAT GOD HAS STORED UP FOR YOU IN THE AFTERLIFE IN HEAVEN.
I hear people judging what is of God by the feelings of peace, love, and joy that they receive.
HOGWASH! I and my children feel peace, love, and joy WHENEVER WE GET WHAT WE WANT!
THERE IS A FALSE PEACE; A FALSE JOY; AND FALSE LOVE AS INTERPRETED BY THE INDIVIDUAL.
The DIVINE LOVE, PEACE, AND JOY THAT BELONGS TO THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN US IS MANIFESTED THROUGH US IN WAYS THAT GO AGAINST OUR SIN NATURE. EXAMPLE: JESUS IN THE GARDEN BEFORE HIS CRUCIFIXION; JESUS STANDING BEFORE HIS ACCUSERS; JESUS ON THE CROSS.
THAT IS GOD MANIFESTING HIS DIVINE FRUIT OF HIS SPIRIT THROUGH A MAN.
BE CONFORMED TO JESUS….HE TRUSTED IN NO ONE BUT HIS FATHER. HE KNOWINGLY ALLOWED PEOPLE TO LIE, STEAL, AND COME AGAINST HIM……AND LOVED THEM ANYWAY BECAUSE HE TRUSTED HIS FATHER TO ONLY ALLOW HIS WILL TO BE DONE TO HIS SON.
I say amen, with a warning.
Your courage to call “them” out is soiled by your discretion.
You heap accusation on ALL ministries by not being specific on the “Capone’s”. Are you speaking against Charles Stanley? Benny Hinn? Billy or Franklin Graham? Lee Grady? Kenneth Copeland? The Bible Answer Man?
You see, MANY don’t see. “Their” ministries are exempt in their minds, as they let their minds wonder to condemn other’s.
Sadly for you, courage comes with a price. Clarity, when accusing Ministers, otherwise, you leave everyone to wonder, “Who is a Capone, I’ll bet he speaks of _____________.
The church universal is condemned. Thanks for almost being courageous, and achieving “Mass Condemnation”.
I have a hard time with people saying Benny Hinn is of the devil. It is one thing to disagree with him and another to judge his heart.
It is not of God to throw all “prosperity” preachers in one basket.
Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker are not of the devil either. They sinned and have repented. I may not like the way they do things but they are not of Satan.
Come against wrong teaching without condemning the teacher.
Some may believe Kenneth Copeland is of the devil also. I would challange anyone to look and see what a wonderful family he has. Their whole family demonstrates the love of God. I say the proof is in the pudding and the Copelands have it……a very Godly family. Not saying they are perfect but stop and listen to Gloria and her children………….it is obvious…………they love God with their whole heart.
Sorry about the 10-foot pole joke! It was a pun on the word “touch.” I am in a very mischievous mood today.
Seriously though, it’s important to know what’s happening. Thank you, Brother Andrew and others, and God bless you.
This is more of the cleaning of the Lord’s house that is required in order to have those who are the TRUE believers and REAL Bride of Christ, who have gone through and remain in the refiners fire, come and establish HIS will in HIS house. Mr. Grady hit the nail on the head MOSTLY by saying that the “body” of Christ has not been discerning. Too much presumption has ruled the church, and has been perpetrated by the social spirit in order to allow the “anointed” ones to rule over the flock instead of nuture, guide, and feed them as Christ has instructed. My husband, who lives in the refiners fire every day says, “the pastor is only a sheep with a bell around his neck. He is to lead the flock to THE Shepherd, not use them as a hireling would”. We ALL are responsible for the outcome of the condition of the church if we sat back and did not challange the lies because we would be labled “rebellious”. Discernment IS REQUIRED and is not an elective. Who cares what you are called by others? You should care about what God has called you to be and do. If you continue to desire to “just get along with everyone and don’t make a fuss”, then step aside and sit on the sideline and be an observer, a spectator of the spiritual war that is raging around you, and make room for those who have been proved by the fires of afliction and rejectioning for such a time as this. Live what you believe! Don’t believe what you live!
Dear Sister Tammy:
People will at times fail us, but Jesus will never fail us. Encourage yourself in the Lord!
Timely article, Bro. Strom. The Benny Hinns, Mike Murdocks, John Avanzinis, Kenneth Copelands, and Creflo Dollars (Dollar? What a name!) of the world will have to give an account one day. They may have started out right, but then again Holy writ indicates that there shall be false teachers among us, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: who’s judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (2Peter 2:1-3)
I remember back in the early 90s having given some money to Robert Tilton. Then one night while watching him on tv, in a still small voice I heard the words “he is not of my fold”. The Lord repeated the words and I basically forgot the incident until a few months later when on a tv show named Primetime, Mr. Tilton was exposed for discarding untold thousands of prayer requests in a dumpster, but not before hoarding the cash and/or checks. We as followers of the Way, should guard our doctrine carefully, and if any of us lacks wisdom, we should ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (James 1:5)
Remember, television networks are only interested in money. As long as the air time is paid for, these “false profits” have a platform. Sadly, most televangelists are in it for filthy lucre’s sake.
I read this article with interest.If Elliot Ness had relied on hearsay to convict Al Capone then Capone would never have been convicted.Mr Grady you don’t need me to tell you that you article in its current form is hearsay leaving the reader to put names to insinuations. I even agree with you on what you say but please do not lower yourself to these uneartherd accusations without putting names to your accusations,it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the readers who are currently blissfully unaware of whom you speak. If you are going to warn people of these so called men of God then please name them or else the readers won’t know whom to avoid.Let your accused know who their accuser is.
If Mr. Grady feels he is discerning the charlatons…. for the sake of the Body of Christ, call them out by name. He needs to warn the baby Christians because they don’t know any better……and I would like to know who he is discerning as a charlaton.
I definitely agree that these big names and ministries have destroyed the name of true Christ Followers. But let’s not forget about the smaller churches, that aren’t well known. I used to be on staff at a church of about 1000 members. I watched as the pastors, especially the senior pastor was put on such a pedestal, it began to turn my stomach. These men were also, as you say, “untouchable”. If you didn’t agree with them, you were wrong and needed to get right with God. Many people today who do not support these large ministries mentioned here, are more than likely involved in a church, be it 100 members or 1000 members that has a pastor that is treated like a rock star. Sadly, we are the ones that create this problem as well. The greatest sin I see in these men is pride and arrogance, and to challenge it is futile. May God help us to discern even these “smaller” proud and arrogant leaders and steer clear as well. I am so thankful that God led my husband and I out of that church and put us on a truer path. Today that church has split, and it was so obvious that the church was full of man followers instead of God followers.
“Remember, television networks are only interested in money. As long as the air time is paid for, these “false profits” have a platform. Sadly, most televangelists are in it for filthy lucre’s sake”
Francisco……wow what an indictment…….most televangelists. There are many Godly ministers on TV………..yes, some are not.
I fail to understand why this is all so obvious to some and not to others.
Some of these ‘untouchables’ have physically turned my stomach from the first moment I heard them, and I have been constantly dismayed at the depth of regard others have had for them.
Twenty years ago I saw one of the stalwarts of the miracle/revival/crusade genre for the first time, and was appalled. Two years ago I went to see him ‘live’ at the behest of those who hang on his every word and I believe that it was there that many saw for the first time the deception and charlatanism of his ‘ministry’.
I pray for our brothers and sisters who have been hurt by false promises but more so, I pray for the souls of the lost whose only contact and perception of Christianity has been through the televised marketing of these false promises. God help us all.
Magnificent article – LONG OVERDUE.
I have been awake to this NONSENSE for many years now but have been appalled at the total gullibility and refusal to apply any form of discernment by many people I had long respected as fellow Christians.
Many people are going to HELL naively believing they are christians following “anointed” ones without question.
This is the ultimate form of spiritual warfare and we need to stop fooling around and get serious about reestablishing the BIBLE and BIBLICAL christianity as the sole basis for salvation and a life pleasing to GOD.
Elaine, Kenneth Copeland is the most demonic person, I have ever seen. He twists the scriptures and lies continually. That fact that he has you bamboozled says a lot as to your knowledge of the scriptures. For Example: Kenneth and his “lovely” wife (she is worse than he is) says we can control the weather! Really then where were they when Katrina hit? Or Rita? They say we are all little Gods. As far as I can read from MY bible, there is only ONE INFINITE being. Was Kenneth born? Then he is not Infinite! That is all. There is NO LITTLE g God. Either you walk on water, raise the dead turn water into wine, and are infinite or you are sinply a servant of God and human. We will never EVER be Gods! Just lies from Kenneth to make you fill good and give him what he wants the most M O N E Y ! Satan wished he was a God too! But he also was created.Gloria Copeland says never to pray to God and say IF ITS YOUR WILL FATHER. She scoffs at what she calls “weak Christians” who prayer if it is your will Father. Well does that make JESUS a weak figure? It is ALL GODS WILL ANYWAY. She deny’s the importance of God’s will. Kenneth Copeland says that God lives on another planet….were does he get this? Kenneth teaches that the bible is wrong when it says: “that through Jesus death on the cross we have ever lasting life” and when the bible says that by Jesus wounds in His FLESH we are healed…Kenneth says that is ALL WRONG! He says that Jesus had to go to hell and get homosexually assaulted by demons before he finished the work of the cross. That is a complete LIE. Kenneth also practices an occult magic ritual that he talks about ….which is the same that Rhonda Byrne speaks of in her Gnostic book The Secret…That is Kenneth claims to focus on what he wants….and then he envisions an “angel” to go and get this item for him. That is a demon that he “talks” to….the Bible says all gifts that are good and perfect comes from the Father of Lights”or God Almighty….James. And not from intense physic focus on a material items that a demon then brings to you. Sorry Elaine Kenneth and his wife and WORST than Benny Hinn.
Andrew when I read this I wept, and I am still weeping,, all that has been said here is so true., and goes deep.
I believe and sense in my spirit, there is something very significant here in Lee Gradys confession,
Could this be the day of esculation, of the shaking to come?
God shall shake all that can be shaken in his church, it is a fearful thing to be in the hands of an angry God. All that is hidden shall be exposed.
God will not be mocked, he is a jealous Father.
No Steve, Mr. Gradys statement shows he has passed the test, he has chosen the right path and I am so thankful for his obedience to stand up ffor the Lord and speak the truth.
Perhaps this may just save a few fom stumbling and being led into desception from these wolves in sheeps clothing
This is the Tumpet Sounding to many in ministry to REPENT!. and come out from the darkness they have been in and have keep Christ’s sheep bound in, and to publically repent and confess their sin to the sheep.
Perhaps this would help heal the sheep whom they have wounded.
One last word – DO NOT HARDEN YOU HEARTS AGAINST THE SHEEP WHO HAVE BEEN UNDER THE INFLUENCE AND DECEPTIONS OF THESE WOLVES – only then can God use you to rescue a few. A tender loving heart is who God will be looking for.
.
Sad to say but it is a few decades too late to speak about these people, ‘the gangstaz’. It is always easier to criticise after the fact. What about those preachers that were ostracised due to standing up when it counted? Lee would have done much better to have written this some 20-30 years ago.
According to this next scripture, there will always has and will be a place for these people.
Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
But there is a seperation happening slowly and the remnant is moving into the wilderness where the Lord wants to meet us face to face. Eze 20:33-44
JimmieKrack…… Kenneth Copeland doesn’t deny the truth of the foundational truths of the gospel. No one has the corner on truth, everyone has error in their teaching……….that doesn’t make them demonic. I don’t agree with some of the things he says…….so what?
Jimmie you are not perfect in your understanding of the Bible either. You are in error also…………………you could learn from Kenneth’s teaching on love.
They will know we are Christians by our love……….this is not love……….attacking our fellow Christians. Disagree but don’t condemn a fellow believer.
It is never to late to realize and speak out against the charalants of our age. What people need to do is to pray to have discernment on the Word of Faith doctrine. If Benny Hinn is a charlatan and by the way on the May 5th P-T-L show with Paul Sr. and Jr… Benny said once we get to heaven we can still sin and fall and go to hell. Benny says that our salvation is not everlasting. Benny says that when the scriptures say we shall spend enternity with the Father….it is not true that we can still go to hell. Paul Crouch agreed with him. I Peter 1: 4…”To spend an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.”
“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,” 1 Tim. 6: 12.
I could go on forever with scriptures that speak of Life Everlasting when we get to heaven. Yet Benny says…NO! The Bible is wrong! My problem is NOT with Benny Hinn. I know who Benny is…But those that follow him, cash in thier savings to help buy him a new custom leather appointed jet, or a third mansion.
And even more the so-called men and women of God who stand like morons on the TBN stage and allow Benny to LIE about our God. All the usual TBN Praise-a-thon thugs are all parce and parcel with Benny Hinn. They are part of the Anti-Christ plan to use TBN to “mix” the truth to the point that we will accept anything… anyone says…like we do now. Ephesians 5:11 says: Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, rather expose them!” When you send TBN money you are having something to do with fruitless deeds. TBN creates/allows the “mixture” of truth and lies within Gods Word. That is a fruitless deed.
Elaine you are the reason that people like Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland can continue to LIE to God’s people and steal their money. You are an apologist for those who create a “mixture” in the doctrine. It is not a matter of not having a full understanding of God’s Word it is a matter of CREATING LIES that fill your buckets with cash to the tune of about 1 billion dollars for Copeland. After studying Gods Word for as long as he has…and he he still lies about being about to control the weather, and Jesus was raped by demons….And that we are all little Gods….And focus on a spirit being to bring you wealth….is not only BLASPHEMY….that IS PURELY DEMONIC…not just a little misunderstanding….of the scriptures like you say….Elaine.
Hello M aid.
I hear you, but – - perhaps I missed the point.
A. One can be specific, and name names and give testimony, as an example: Alfrado Nicolus Tilton was laughing on the 4th of July to the crowd about all the idiots who he had persuaded to donate… ..
OR
B. one can talk about various and sundry doctrines, such as Prosperity Doctrine – - – and can also talk about other doctrines that are rather vague, and give some rumbling and rumors about same.
Here is an example.
A. President Obama has never shown us his Long Form Birth Certificate…
B. All politicians are dirty so patriotism is ridiculous.
The “A”s above – - give us facts, and tell us we need to do something about that specific situation.
The “B”‘s to me are rather impotent rumblings and rumors – - .
B’s to me smell of Demagoguery. It is an effort to raise a mob – - when the Speaker himself either does not have any facts, or does not have the guts to get specific.
Now I could be wrong, but – - that is how it seems to me. I mean – - trashing Al Capone? Ow! I bet it hurt Al’s feelings? Not. And this is on a John the Baptist site? Ha. Now that REALLY makes me laugh. Was certainly not specific, as John the Baptist was. John, got quite specific, if I remember correctly.
According to this scripture it has always been like this.
Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
God wants us all to face the wilderness where we meet Him face to face. Eze 20:33-44
Some have a glimpse, get scared because there is nobody to hold their hand, run back to the false and that is the end of them. In the end the fearful don’t make it.
I feel sorry for Tammy. I agree with J Bryon and Eliane. ftom a ministers point of view I love God’s Church. When we are born again we are joined to it. Christ is the Head of the Church. He will present us to the Father without spot and wrinkle. Churches are meant to be lead by the Holy Spirit. We are bought with price and that price was Jesus dying in our place . If we had done it we would of died but before Jesus was sinless dead could not hold him and in him we now have eternal life. God loves the church But we are allowed to assess the situations with the spirit of decernment but not to judge. we are to pray for abuses and get on serving each other in love.
I find all this knocking detestable. There is enough unchurch people complaining here and there basically because they are selfish and in some cases justified. However they sin by holding on to unforgiveness and cause disunity in the family. But if they decided to loved their ministers and to speak lovingly into their lives gently and help to complete the call we would help each other be more like Jesus. We are to praise God in all circumstances knowing/trusting and beleiving that it is God’s job to sort things out .Our job is build our outstation from heaven in our community so those who do not want to be a part of us will be win to us by the love we have for one another. Our Call is to and make disciples.and do as the Holy Spirit tells us. going into the world and make discipling baptising them and teaching them everything you know and then going out together and disciplining another person each, every year.. This is true evangelism . We can do it in our work place our social Club on the golf course fishing with friends; If facr everywhere God places us. We are to have God first in every activity and action of conducting our lives second. The trouble with knockes is that they work in to the hand of satan so righteous but so destructive. moved by familar and religious spirits whoes job it is to split and diviide The church and ultinmately the kingdom of god. . No organistion can survive without unity . Our Ftaher in heaven has a lot to fix up in us all. He could bring so much blessing if we just do what the bible tells us. Love one another as we love God who makes us feel great about ourselves.
This is what i understand our Father in Heaven wants of you and me.. He wants us born again, dead to yourself but alive to Christ. infilled with the Hol;y Spirit Speaking in tongues 24/7 [ ie much as possible] and being Spirit led as servants of the most high God. As you know speaking in tongues once born again will lead you to full emersion baptism, if not already baptismed in that way. build you up in your most holy Faith as enables you to recieve insight from God. This is so all we have to do is read our bible; mediate on scripture and do as we are told. It is a wonderful non striving way to live your Christain life. Forgiving every one and working in the church to bring Glory to God not splitting off here and therre because you don’t like this or that. I find that alot of discontented people are lazy will not submit to godly authority and have too much time on their hands. Tey should be busy praying as God leads and building the kingdom of God through their local church ; which hopefully they are attached . It should be remembered that some minister are abused also. They bring rightepousness into a congregation and satan hates that; so he get people to attack these initatives as unholy . People leave because they don’t beleive in this or that. when really they are a product of witchcraft in the church. The church is weaken.
so if we as abody of god people did what the bible requires of us . we would build the kingdom of God in our lifetime hasten the return of Christ and bring great blessing to ourselves as well as the world. And this good man who started so well and been caught up in studff we may consider ungodly would also come into line or be moved aside by god and the church would be united.
May i suggest that you find a church and just love people and do as you are told and build his kingdom one soul at a time. If we did what we should do we would not see the rest happening as their be no void for them to fill. lets support the church its godly minister do genine christainity and bring glory to God and let god fix up His Church hao he thinks fit and love those going throught difficulty . paul was beaten and lefyt for dead and everybody hated him in the religious world yet we are so grateful for him today. he wrote 17 of the 27 books of the new testament. Judge not; love alot and pray God will in every circumstanvce but do not be deflected from what God requires you to do because one day not to far in the future each one of us is going to have to give an account of every word and action we have done in our lives. I think we all should work out our salvation with fear and terrbling. Stop knocking and making excuses for not serving God as you should and leave it to God in his grace and mercy to minister to us all and we just go and disciple the world. Take a pen, work on hundred people. Multiply everyone winning one soul and disciplining them and then going out the following year with everybody who now totals two hundred people and let them do the same. for twenty years. There probably would not be an unsaved person in your country . .Stop crumbling
and start serving. This ministry would not have anyone to preach to if we continue to destroy God bribe.
blessings
Martin
as about the typo’s
Bit of hypocrite, ain’t cha mate??
We are guilty because we should have had the courage to confront this scourge of false prophets as soon as each one appeared. Like Paul, we should identify the specific false teachings, and if need be, the false teachers need to be named. The flock will listen in earnest as we provide teaching and preaching about the spiritual hazards of many of the false prophets of our day, and yet when they go home and sit in front of the TV watching “Christian” channels, they do not discern the errors in the glib preachers that are at least as slick as Bill Clinton and far more dangerous.
Let us name the names and decry the lies before more sheep are led away from the flock!
Good heaven’s people. Can you not see that you are tearing down each other? This is EXACTLY why it is God’s decision to bring down the so called demonic charlatans.
We are all products of hearing different teachers, preachers, prophets etc.etc. We hear them, believe them, because they are in the pulpit or on the stage and they sound right. There are those that can discern better than others and then there are those that the Lord is with them but they are having to go through the trials , testing and unfortunately the renouncing and repenting because they have followed these people . I have read many of these and for those that don’t want to believe what is written then they need to go to the Lord, ask HIM to show them in scripture next to the words these people have spoken. Then the light might be turned on for them. I had to do it. I didn’t want to believe that these people were bleeding the people and pocketing so much and just getting richer while others were trusting in miracles . I had to search and depend on the Lord. And when I found out the truth , it hurt, it hurt bad because there are many great pastors that have followed in the footsteps of these people only to continue the wrong teachings or theories or Word of God. Just recently I found some wrong teaching by a great teacher , now gone to Heaven , and people will think that his word was the truth. It is God, that opens the eyes of those that yearn to know the truth. What is happening on this blog is ————–people are getting offended because the truth has not been revealed to them. That could be idolatry or it could be something else and they have to go to the Lord and allow HIM to expose it. Remember, we are to lay everything at the cross , including our beloved pastors and teachers. This website is good but we need to stick to scriptures and truth not knocking others.
I have been in these ministries and I know first hand that what Lee Grady has spoken is true. Did he not name them for a reason? Maybe the Lord was not ready for him to name them . Sometimes we say and talk too much and it is not time . True prophets only speak what the Father reveals to them to speak. I am not calling Grady a prophet, but what I am saying is we all have a tendency to speak way too much and our comments are not necessary. When the Lord is ready , these people and these ministries will come down. It is our place to be cleansed from them and repent if we have followed or continue to follow once the truth is known. —
Go back and ask the Lord to reveal those that are deceiving HIS PEOPLE. I know I had to purge “self” before the veil was lifted from my eyes.
The answer is always simple and best
Let any one who is a pastor follow the example of Paul.. Arguably the most productive evangelist of all time! He was a tent maker and worked at that trade so that he would not be a burden to the Church He asked for forgivness because he made a boast of his finacial matters and went on to say::
“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” .
So there is nothing new under the sun! the early church had its leeches and Paul had no calms about calling them ministers of Satan!
Paul: “To this present hour we hunger and thirst, we are ill-clad, and buffeted and homeless, and labor, working with our hands” (1 Cor. 4:11, 12)”
and also:
“I coveted no man’s silver or gold or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands have ministered to my necessities and to those with me. In all things I have shown you that BY SO TOILING you MUST also help the weak.” (Acts 20:3-35.):
If these modern swindlers had to earn their living outside of church funds they would soon take their ugly skills else ware and the Church would be free of them.
Instead of reading what Paul, said, they read their bank satements.
Pr Michael
I have noticed that there are a number of people who are very vocal defending these people. What they forget is the INFLUENCE that these false teachers have to lead young Christians AWAY from the truth. These people are crying foul that any should dare to expose them and their deeds. Please note what Paul said to the Ephesians (5:8-13)
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light.
One thing I noticed, when I began to see many years ago how these so called leaders were saying and doing, was that their proselytes were very vocal in condemning those who spoke up and questioned their words and deeds, silencing many by vitriolic attacks, and sending many on guilt trips to silence them. I clearly remember in the scriptures that Jesus was not too happy about those who had decided to use His Father’s house of prayer as a means to their own ends. If I recall, He was SO angry that he stormed the temple – a one Man army with a whip, sending all fleeing in terror, and overturning their tables. I would be pretty safe to say that there would have been guards protecting the temple – but all fled…..at the rage of one Man! It’s called righteous anger, and God has shown His more than once! I just think that He probably is going to show His again, soon, if the church doesn’t start following Jesus, instead of following a bunch of wolves in sheep’s clothing. He did say that judgment would begin with…..the church, and it is the Word that will judge it – not our pet doctrines. It’s Jesus Christ’s righteousness that we are to be clothed in – not our own. Ours isn’t worth a pinch of salt.
So many are so busy following people, that they forget that they are supposed to be following Jesus. HE is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Nobody else. If they keep doing this, and not testing the spirits, looking to confirmation from the Word of God, then they will end up in the same ditch. Jesus said in Matthew 24:
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
Watch, therefore, and pray, lest you enter into error!
Where are the true leaders in the body of Christ. Why do the people have to rise up and speak…which in turn brings confusion and hurt. The ministries or ministers spoken of here need to be confronted by their headship….where are their heads? where are the true apostles? where are you man of God?
Wow, after reading all of the posts I needed to go back to God and refresh myself with His presence for a while. It is like His Holy Spirit dwelling in me was being quenched by all of the darkness in these posts. I had to go back to God for a while and let the light shine so I could feel peace and feel clean again.
From out here in the light, it looks like everyone is argueing and going around and around in circles in the darkness. Some voices are calling for peace, I’m one of them. I could feel the presence of The Lord fading away from me as I read the posts, so I went back to The Lord. It is because of your ways that the presence of The Lord does not grow here.
From out here in the light and the presence of The Lord and peace it looks like you guys are being manipulated by evil spirits to fight with each other rather than creating peace. The reason peace is so elusive here is that demons have less control over your feelings and interests if you have peace, so it is not in their best interests. If they can keep the fight going, then the presence of The Lord will not grow here. Then you will not be free.
From out here in fellowship with The Lord in the light, it looks like you need to learn new ways to keep the presence of The Lord with you and your ministry to each other on this forum. If you are not willing to learn to create peace whether you agree with each other or not, then God’s presence will not dwell here and grow here.
If you bring God’s presence with you to this website you too will have noticed that reading these posts quenchs Gods Holy Spirit in you. It is certainly not in my own best interests to join in because I think that staying in the presence of The Lord is in my own best interests.
The Lord’s presence and it’s peacefullness retreats from you all when fight like this. Repent therefore of your sins and return to The Lord’s presence. (I always wanted to use therefore in a sentence..) Check your compass because you are not moving towards The Lord and His peace, you are tearing each other to pieces in the darkness. North on your compass is God’s presence and His fellowship. Remember The Lord is a gentle gentleman, and He likes gentlemen.
Oh please. Why didn’t Grady speak out against this years ago when he was sitting in his editor’s chair earning large amounts of money by supporting and publicising these very people he now rails against? What’s his excuse? He was blind but now he sees? He lacked discernment? Or did he like the big paycheck and the power? Give me a break. He is part of the problem and no panacea.
I found the congregations hard & impenetrable in their support of such leaders. On speaking out or questioning (even quietly), I was frozen out of any knowledge of ‘goings-on’. Ha, ha, foolish virgins, the Holy spirit kept me informed & therefore I obeyed & made an EXIT from these places. The world is a beautiful place, hungry for God. It awaits these lost sheep to obey God’s word.
Plus, you know the world is more accepting, less judgmental & heaps more fun. I don’t care what the church thinks of me :)
The abuses of the health & wealth “gospel” are so horribly deep-rooted and widespread that I’m glad whenever somebody preaches or teaches the truth about it. Even if they don’t say it perfectly, at least they say something, like Lee Grady has in this article.
People get sucked into deception, and sometimes by the grace of God they get out again. I thank God for the people who do get out, especially those who are willing to tell the truth about it. And I pray that many more will get out of deception and abuse, and free others as they get free.
Hi. I read the article and I say Amen. And Elaine since you requested names, I have two so far. Benny Hinn whose daughter had a wedding gown so opulent, it was longer than Princess Diana’s when she got married. Another is Joyce Meyers who I used to respect. She used the church money to pay hers and her children’s bills. And the Church of Christ I want to had the ministers using the contributions we sacrificed to buy second homes, cars, vacations, concert tickets and luxuries. When I needed help to get through the time I had knee surgery and had to learn to walk again, they got mad at me for not working two jobs. It took physical therapy three times a month for eighteen months for me to walk again. A month and a half in bed with no short term disability. And you can also research on your own to find the people who have cheated. Oh and Jim Bakker? Using money for prostitutes? And Jimmy Swaggert telling his congregation that he will be taken to heaven if he doesn’t collect two million dollars?
Research and you will find out for yourself. Thanks for putting this out there. I have been praying that God would reveal those who are doing this. The Church I went to caused me to almost lose my faith and I had to build it back up again.
I say Amen to God shaking the foundations and causing us to put our faith where it should have been all the time. In him and Jesus and not in religion.
Heidi
Dearest Martin,
I have read mostly your recommendations for the “laity”. Unfortunately the system you are suggesting just doesn’t work. The majority of my experiences with “certified ministers” is that they reek with pride. I say this not with contempt, nor unforgiveness, but out of a desire to speak truth. Nothing changes until we admit stuff. My observation is that the pastor position is a huge stumbling block.
I am for any pastor who loves the body of Christ with an agape love. I have some friends who are like this and they put the body of Christ before themselves, and praise to His name for this. Though this couple admit that all the parts of the body need to function collectively and that the traditional church method is not able to operate in this fashion. They are also trying to encourage true fellowship within their church, not the program type but the eating together regularly type.
There is room for eldership in the bible and this helps to bring down the “king” type leadership, that everyone should sit down and shutup and submit to the pastor.
Women, do not submit to the pastor, in doing so you are committing spiritual fornication. Women are called to submit to their husbands, alone.
One man has never been called to lead in the body of Christ, this builds resentment and kingship.
Jesus said we are not to call anyone Teacher, Master, Rabbi, Father. Yet why do we call a pastor “shepherd” a pastor? Pastor means shepherd, and there is only one Shepherd. Jesus says we are ALL brothers, and if you want to be great in His kingdom then you should serve……not have people serve you and have all the birthday parties for the pastor…..while the homeless guy on the back seat has his birthday in the back alley. This is all against what Jesus taught, and it is impossible to function any other way with a pastor up front. Now with an eldership there is much higher accountability and no “top dog”. This is the only system I can find in the NT.
I do agree with you brother Martin that prayer is terribly lacking.
love,
Sarah
Clare Watts, you made a direct hit! And accurate statement, when you pointed out the coming judgement of God. I will not go into great detail; however, I recently had a vision while traveling on an airplane. I will share with you what God spoke after showing me a vision of a city skyline, that was covered in a thick dark gray cloudy mist. He suddenly spoke and said “AS IT WAS IN HAITI, SO SHALL IT BE UPON WASHINGTON, DC” God is not asleep at the helm…. He is not pleased. WE ARE IN TROUBLE!! We must all seriously intercede and repent for this entire nation. “If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and heal their land (2 Chron. 7:14). The strong must bear the weak at this point….or many innocent will suffer.
Oh, by the way I pondered the possibility of an earthquake occuring in this region (Washington, DC), since I had never heard of such a thing in this region. Well, God answered my questions with a 3.6 earthquake about 3 or 4 weeks ago in the Washington metropolitan area.
I do have a problem with the first sentence of Mr. Grady’s piece. I do not believe that God is shaking the church to remove anything. First I believe there is a Bride ready…There is a church….. SEPERATE of organized Christian establishments. Unique individuals from all walks, denominations (true ones that is) from every tribe, nation and tongue…who make up the Body of Christ. Some within the establishment will be saved, many WILL NOT. But “the Church” as Grady puts it will continue to go down the road of apostacism until it falls in ranks with the False Prophet. There is a myriad of scriptures that descibes the end-time church and people , hearts waxing colder…given in to deception and decieving others, first they’re will be a falling away, Apostasia in the greek….Deception flourishing, masters of the dark craft, causing deception to flourish… Dan. 8:22-27 There is no evidence of a Godly Church Establishment actually in the end-times. Just like the church the FIRST time Jesus came…corrupt! So God is not shaking anything. He is allowing these charlatans to go forth. To eventually provide the 2 Thess 2… Strong Delusion, that will separate the fake, fleshly, signs and wonders, money seeking Christians from the real ones. For these Charlatans to lie like they do on a nightly basis…to corrupt God’s Word, and falsely lead so many a stray all in the name of money….IS God’s judgment on a wicked generation who believe the lie (WOF, NAR, ECUMENICAL, EMERGENT) and the love of the truth is not in them. Emergent churches watering down the Word, Ecumenical groups trying desperately to bring all beliefs systems together…is “the mystery of iniquity that is already at work.” Preparing the way for the lawless one. God is not going to SHAKE His will/prophecy of allowing the church to go Apostate…according to scriptures. There will be no shaking or fixing or cleansing of the church.(again there IS a bride seperate and spotless) ..IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE AND WORSE… That is Scriptural. That is why you better leave all false man made doctrines like WOF, NAR, Dominionism, etc. before it is too late. Jesus ain’t coming back to chit chat.
Heidi, Correction………..Jimmy Swaggart never said.that. You got false information and slander Jimmy Swaggart with it. You are wrong…..try Oral Roberts and more then 2 million dollars. I challange you to prove what you said about him (Jimmy Swaggart). I doubt if you will come out and apologize for your slander against him.
Joyce Meyer is my sister in Christ……………you spread rumors about her. She is not perfect but she loves the Lord with her whole heart. I would say to you…………..repent of your gossip and walk in love.
Don’t include me in the “we”. I have lost many friends over the years because I spoke out against these charlatins. Being rooted nad grounded in the Word~ thru the teachings of men like Chuck Smith and Raul Reis, and asking the Lord for the gift of discernment I did not fall prey to their methods. When I was a brand new Christian I did attend Gene Profeta’s church but soon was uncomfortable with his antics and knew that something was not right. Later on, as I grew in the knowledge of the Lord, I easily saw what was going on. A lot of my sisters in the Lord did not. And not many would listen. some even went on to embrace the blaspheme’s in Fla. more recently. There are a lot of true believers out here who cannot be held responsible for the lies , had nothing to do with them, and never ever supported their life styles.
I remain ~ a Berean Christian.
OY – Elaine – an I suppose you call THAT diatribe LOVE? I do wonder if your sister in Christ would open her pocket to pay YOUR bills? I kinda doubt it.
I guess most of you may have heard of New Zealand, deep in the South Pacific.
A total population of not too many, maybe 4 million. Even here we have Al Capone’s who have been willingly put there by their flock of followers.
Have you ever heard of Bishop Brian Tamaki of the Destiny Church? I’m sure they too started off ok but now . . . well.
Yes I guess we are responsible for their positions and letting them get away with it. Unfortunately we seem to have traded God’s Word and the study and doing of it for other things. Some would have no idea what’s in his Word let alone how to discern what is right in God’s eyes. Where do we go? Back to Him on our knees and beg for His forgiveness. Then to start to study and really believe His Word really is His Word and that what is written in it is for real. Never mind what the clever talkers tell you.
The downfall of these people cannot come quick enough as far as I am concerned. However they seem to be being replaced with new new and more subtle leaders.
We should all pray for God to show us the deception around us, and then how we combat it.
Your courage to call “them” out is soiled by your discretion.
You see, MANY don’t see. “Their” ministries are exempt in their minds, as they let their minds wonder to condemn other’s.
Sadly for you, courage comes with a price. Clarity, when accusing Ministers, otherwise, you leave everyone to wonder, “Who is a Capone, I’ll bet he speaks of _____________.
The church universal is condemned. Thanks for almost being courageous, and achieving “Mass Condemnation”.
(Repeat: Just look at the above confusion)
I am very concerned about Joyce Meyer and her doctrine because she is wholly aligned with the “Word-Faith Movement” which is a seriously flawed doctrinal system based on the heretical teachings of Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland.
Hagin and Copeland, together with other supporters of this religious movement, teach that God is SUBJECT to the power of FAITH and is OBLIGATED to grant every request made in FAITH. They also teach that God and Man are the same kind of being. This elevates the nature of man and undermines the nature of God.
Copeland has taught that Jesus Christ was an “anointed” man and that he himself has attained a similar level of “anointing.” Therefore Copeland believes that he himself could have done for mankind what Christ did. I believe this significant doctrinal error fails the basic biblical test for the spirit of antichrist in that it actually denies that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh but instead was simply a committed devotee of their Word of Faith teachings.
The incarnation of God in the human form of Jesus Christ is a foundational tenet of christianity.absolutely crucial to the integrity of the christian faith as taught by Jesus Christ and His original Apostles.
Copeland dismisses it outright with this outrageous claim.
Consequently Copeland and his colleagues, including Joyce Meyer, who propagates similar heretical teachings about the nature of Jesus Christ, must be rejected outright by ALL Bible believing christians who intend to remain faithful until the very end.
I commend Lee Grady for having the courage{missing from todays church!!!}to speak the truth and stand firm in the light of all the leaders who choose to walk in darkness.The leaders who disagree simply feel threatened and are in fear of losing their extravagant lifestyle and wealth stolen from God.Those churchgoers who don”t agree with Lee are maybe the people who attend a lukewarm church and are so comfortable with their churches watered down ministry that they dont believe its their Godly duty to minister to the lost and that they actually believe all god requires of them is to continue giving large amounts of money to their false idols{self proclaimed leaders}and they will be saved!Think again.Please read Revelation ch3-v14-22.I will vomit you out of my mouth.If your church is mostly about pleasing itself and not ministering to the needs of community & beyond and not bearing fruit, put on your nikes & run until you find one that does. Is it any wonder unbelievers look at what the church has become and want no part of it because to them its no different to the world around them.Dont sit and be entertained as a spectator at these greedy circus shows that steal & are an abomination to god,but pray & take every opportunity to love and minister to the unloved & lost in our suburbs.cities etc,etc.I attend an outreach church who”s moto is {relationship not religion}and I believe when the church understands this saying only then can it change from self centerness to placing its emphesis on reaching the lost in LOVE and realising its not about their own lifestyle and wealth whatsoever,when in fact most of the wealth should be going into the community and beyond anyway.Food,clothes,shelter,medicine,etc,etc.
Another point I want to make on this site also is I notice some of you are quiet critical of others comments.c”mon if you cant speak encouraging words to a bro or sister maybe just stick to your own comments regards the topic at hand.Amen.
I hope Lee Grady isn’t “speaking out” because it has become a convenient thing for him that’s all. I hope he is a truth speaker regardless of the cost it will be to him.
I observe in my own life that many, many, many people (in fact most of them) are self preserving, self motivating. We have to learn that if we don’t stand up for that name above every other name, that He will also be ashamed of us. :)
love,
Sarah
Amen, Lee Grady said it all! What more is there to be said!
Why are some of you still calling the people who have these “ministries” BRETHREN?
Are they our BRETHREN WHO LIE ABOUT OUR GOD?
Are they BRETHREN WHO STEAL OUR TIME; MONEY; CHILDREN; AND LIFE?
Are they BRETHREN WHO DO NOT MANIFEST HOLY LIVING AND THE FRUIT OF GOD’S SPIRIT?
Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jhn 8:45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
Jhn 8:47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.
Jhn 18:37 …………..Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Look up the Greek definition of the word “heareth” in verses John 8:47 and John 18:37.
BLUELETTERBIBLE.ORG
“akouo theos rhema”
And why do you call those who FOLLOW AFTER THEM BRETHREN?
Our brethren follow after Jesus…not liars, false prophets, false teachers.
Stop calling the tares and the world BRETHREN and then the people who are seeking the truth and the life won’t be confused! Just because people speak “christianese” doesn’t make them one.
Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, AND THEY FOLLOW ME:
Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.
Those who DEFEND THESE LYING PROPHETS AND TEACHERS will be caught up with them in their lies and will suffer.
Divine love does not make EXCUSES for the sins of people…..Divine love has provided everything people need to be holy and to OVERCOME SIN.
Greetings brethren, it shuld be a great thing when believers meet 2getha, all should be done|said in sincerity & truth, with an intention of building & not destroying, if i am wrong, find it your heart to correct me in a way that i’ll recieve your correction with love -since u’ll be correcting me with love- cause anything else apart from that might only harden my heart, as Christians, may you gaurd the way u speak with each other yet non of the thruth shuld b compromised still.
Anyway, lets get the content of the article… 4 instance Paul would say, ”Some of you preach with envy & contention…” & other apostles wuld also warn against false teachers, i believe at some stages they probably met up with them, but they understood that the battle is not against them in person -but against the spirits that used them…
Wat am saying?? (cause i’ll take long with illustrations)
It is not Gradys ‘job’ (for a lack of a bettr word) to name out those ministers -theres a lot of them after all, nor do i think it was within his ideas when writting this piece, i mean -if he wantd to, he could’v easily done so. And 1 disadvantage to that would be, he might leav out the ones that influence u the mst. Thus it is for u to discrn according to scripture (it is not magic or some kind of special thing, just refer to the bible so to see if what they say, how they conduct themselves etc is biblical, Christ like). It is for all of us to do. Grad’s point here is to make us aware of something -not someone or some ppl. So it would be good then to analize the point of this note, which is wolves on sheepskns creeping in the church & us not taking the necesary steps but supporting them AND THE WORLD IS AWARE…
It redicules the name of Christ, it shames the kingdom of God, it sets no differerenc between the world and us (darkness & light). U know, running away from hipocrites in the world & gettng worse ones in the church -in the name of Jesus…
This s truth prophesied in the bible, we cant deny that such is happening. Now this supposed to provoke the way you always thought & actd 2wards this situation because it is happening.Now Wat do u say in efference to this? Name names if neccesary, if its of beneficial -ofwhich it probably mayb.
with love, Cecil.
The writing is on the wall, and in Associated Press:
Televangelist Benny Hinn asks for $2M in donations
(AP) – Jul 28, 2010
SANTA ANA, Calif. — Televangelist Benny Hinn has posted a plea for $2 million in donations on his website.
Hinn says he accumulated the deficit in the past few months because offerings at some international appearances did not cover expenses.
Hinn’s reputation as an advocate of prosperity gospel has attracted millions of followers but has also drawn criticism from lawmakers and watchdog groups.
He is one of six televangelists who have been targeted by federal lawmakers investigating compliance with IRS rules for nonprofits.
Hinn has said on his website that external auditors ensure his compliance with IRS regulations and that in 2008, 88 percent of the money he collected was spent on ministry.
Benny Hinn Ministries is based in Texas and operates a church and television studio in Southern California.
Thank you Lee Grady for speaking the truth. We have always felt uncomfortable when hearing these charlatans on TV or radio. We turn them off as soon as possible.
Thanks so much for sharing this! I think that we can clearly define these types as being unholy. If true Holiness was in their sprit, in their hearts, then it would flow through their lips. What I have been observing about these is that their words speak of themselves, what they have, where they’ve gone, what they’ve done and at the end of the day they haven’t mentioned what God has done, where God has been, Who God is! They are fulfilling the plot of satanic spirits to overtake the church using the flesly “wonders” to stimulate the unsuspecting bench warmers who a looking for signs, miracles and wonders instead of the truth of What God’s Word says! You can clearly define these types by listening closely to the words they say. If’s not in the Word, then it’s not the Word and it is not God!
Amen
I liked Jack-Rabbits comment the best here, at least so far. The article, because it was not specific – - and name even ONE name – - caused infighting on the board, while each person brought out or defended their own opinions as to who Grady was possibly talking about.
Was a real downer.
Everybody knows who he is talking about.
No mystery at all.
-Andrew
Thank you for coming out so bold….the righteous are as bold as a lion…what you have said is true……these greedy balaams have bound the CHURCH OF GOD (a bulwark of truth) with this statement…”Do not touch the Lord’s anointed”…….this misused scripture has kept even the discerning from the confronting these wolves…..The righteous are breaking out of this snare…..”Psalm:74:3-9……Direct your steps to the perpetual ruins ….your foes have roared within your holy place, they set up their emblems there (charlatons)….we do not see our emblems…there is no longer any prophet….”…..its time call out these charlatons by name that all may know whats going on…..Its time to pick up up the sling and hit the forehead for these money-mongers…
I have had a change of heart. After seeing the lack of discernment from many of the brothers and sisters, Naming names may not be profitable.
Lee, perhaps you were correct in just giving outlines of the false doctrine and leaving the rest to the readers heart. Too many to name? Yes. But after seeing the excuse making and stalwart defenders of the Prophets of Profit, names may only cause further anger towards the truth.
My own mother (a more Godly woman than any I know) calls Benny Hinn a great man of God, and has even sent her widows mite to him. Go Figure. She is a giver, not a profit seeker, yet he has a great and Godly woman as a devotee, while I believe he is such a Capone. I will never convince her of that, and I suspect you would be no more sucessful than I with these others.
God will need to do what we cannot.
The prosperity message was a corrective for those souls who thought that destitution was a sign of holiness and that sickness was to be “offered up” to Jesus. The masses were in the dark about the fact that Jesus came to deliver the people from the devil and the works of the devil; such as sickness and destitution. But the message got perverted by the hirelings. They worked out a pyramid gospel which is commonly known as the Prosperity Gospel.
At the top of the pyramid is the hireling Pastor who hustles the poor ignorant congregation. The Pastor tells them, directly or indirectly, to give to him and God will bless them. The Pastor becomes the mediator between God and the people. If they give to ‘God’, the Pastor’s high life style, then God will bless them 30, 60 100 fold! This message is preached in every Charismatic Church in the USA.
The Charismatic Prosperity Gospel is now a Mainline Belief System.
However, earlier in the movement’s history, the Charismatic Movement of the late 60s and 70s was a true blessing from the Lord. Believers everywhere were filled with the Holy Spirit with little or no seeking and without water baptism. People just went to each other’s homes and got filled with the Holy Ghost. There was no doctrine. No one was selling anything at first.
But then the camp followers set up their selling tents. It was no longer just Jesus and the joy of being together. No, the professional Christian leaders, the hirelings, came up with their different systems. The Catholics instituted a Seven Week program of how to get the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Charismatics used their same altar call techniques but added merchandise to the message. It was now Jesus plus Shaklee, Jesus plus water purifiers, Jesus plus Amway, Jesus plus Excel Telephone service. And above all, Jesus plus prosperity!
What began as a corrective became a doctrine…The Prosperity Gospel.
The Prosperity Gospel has killed the Spirit in most of the major Charismatic Churches. The spirit of Tobiah is in the sanctuary and the pastors are getting rich at the expense of losing their souls.
Prosperity Pastors have been and are involved in selling soap and health drinks to their sheep. The sheep are now prospective customers. Virtually all the Charismatic Pastors are hustling their congregation for money. The Holy Spirit has gone down the road and they don’t even know the Glory has departed! They still dance and sing like pagans around the May pole. But God has departed.
God is doing a new thing in this hour. His eye is on Israel. The age of the gentile is closing. The armies of the world are now North of Israel in the “safety zone” of Lebanon. There is a push by the Palestinians to get the UN Troops on the Temple Mount. The betrayal of Israel is at the door!
Meanwhile, back in the USA, terrorists strike the Twin Towers and thousands die BUT THE PASTORS OF THE CHARISMATIC CHURCHES ARE STILL FILLING THEIR BARNS and the people are getting fattened up for the slaughter. The Lord is saying “ The barns are full. Empty the barns!”
Imagine! Preaching about the End Times in one breath and how to get more money and goods from God in the next! It’s madness.
The Prosperity Gospel is basically self serving. It works for those on top of the pyramid i.e. the Prosperity Pastors. They are the recipients of the funds. They get the first cut; the best cut of meat out of the offering pot. So, it is a popular message and it is self serving. God warns the Pastors “ You eat the fat…but you feed not the flock…the diseased you have not strengthened, neither have you healed that which was sick…” Ezekiel 34
J. Byron, you are a wonderful son to your mother with such care and heartfelt love for her. My sister is also a godly woman and is sold over to the gangsta’s, the Rick Joyner’s and the likes. I warned her about them and she accused me of slander and gossip and our relationship was broken for about a year.
I will still tell her my thoughts on these people if she asks, but the Holy Ghost will have to unveil the eyes because I have realized that any action from my flesh will not change her mind or her heart on these matters.
love,
Sarah
There are clear references to Benny Hinn here who is asking for $2Mill since his wife has filed for devorce.
I received a false anointing when I put into practice his book “Good Morning Holy Spirit” and have believed his power anointing is demonic ever since. There are no foll0ow up or records of lasting healings. It could be that Christians are being deceived by being knocked over and thats all. Sad.
Refers to BENNY HINN above. The article ic clearly refering to him.
Rumors and innuendo we can do without
But the FACT is that Benny is trying to raise 2 million, that he lives a very lavish lifestyle, that his wife has divorced him and that he has helped spread PROSPERITY teaching into many 3rd World countries where it is doing untold awful damage.
So who needs rumors?
The only problem I see amongst the board…is : Some have clearly left the WOF movement and the false prophetic utterance movements ….and some have not. Some still have one foot in a lukewarm belief system… and the other foot planted in WOF with all its allure and promises of riches and health and being a God, and controlling the weather and belief that Jesus was basically a man like us and we can be Gods…and the 50 million dollar lavish lush sactuary, and believing that by giving the pastor a seed today God will gladly repay you on Tues. I even heard a preacher named Malcom Mclaren he da bishop…Elaine probably loves him…say on PRAISE THE LORD…PRASIE -A- THON this past May…I heard him say…OH! OH! The anointing is so strong! (What actually is an anointing?) OH! The anointing is strong up in this place! I tell you under the anointing that once you give your seed, your blessing, your love gift….I tell you….T H E N …GOD OWES YOU! GOD OWES YOU!
This is the crux of why so many even on this forum are STUCK in the CULT of WOF. Because they like to believe that if they perform the right number of oil anointings, + seed + prayer + gift offering = God Now OWES ME! The cross was not enough.
FACT: God OWES YOU NOTHING. And your not twisting His arm! God gives salvation to all who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ…and that SHOULD be enough. IT is enough in most of the world but America…..OH Americans need more! THey Need Jets, and Mansions, and Bentleys, and plastic surgery cause God wants them to look good.
Yep! The other problem I see on the board is an inordinate amount of just REALLY REALLY HOLY PEOPLE! People that are too good to warn others that there is a wolf …dressed like a sheep standing next to you. Oh that might be slandering the bethren. Just really HOLY people that would allow Satan if he called himself a Christian to twist the scriptures anyway he wants. Now from my experience most these really super holy and anointed people do not know the Bible and do not have a healthy understanding of who God is. THey do have a firm grasp on what they want to appear to others as….SUPER HOLY! If you were on a ship that was sinking would you warn others and throw a life-line? It is the same with calling out hypnotists who are masters of NLP or Neuro LInguistic Programming …look it up and study how it works and you will see 99% of TV preachers and Obama are masters of this. It is teachable and is a science. But it is used to manipulate and control others.
But yeah I don’t like or trust super HOLY people especially those that see themselves as TOO holy to point out a brood of vipers or a Synagogue of Satan or white washed tombs of those who are of thier Father Satan…..get my point? You holy people couldn’t hang with Jesus Christ. He will be sorting out the money changers and Nicolatians who Jesus said HE HATED…HATED…and you would find that talk not very Christian and walk away with your nose in the air.
“But the FACT is that Benny is trying to raise 2 million, that he lives a very lavish lifestyle, that his wife has divorced him”
In the town I live in, which is in Canada, if a woman divorces her man then SHE is the problem, and SHE will have a bad name till the day that SHE dies. :) Even if her husband will not leave his porn, SHE will have the pastor in the church come up to her and tell her that it is wrong for HER to divorce him. :)
Sarah
I think it is important for people to contact their local Christian TV stations as well as the ones like TBN or Daystar…and tell them to get these preachers off the air. Even the “popular” ones . Put on preachers who open their BIBLES and are well- studied and actually TEACH the body of Christ Scripture that is without manipulation. And those who actuall preach the Gospel instead of just saying they do when they dont.
If people just sit there and do nothing it’s just going to continue. God bless.
“Yep! The other problem I see on the board is an inordinate amount of just REALLY REALLY HOLY PEOPLE! People that are too good to warn others that there is a wolf …dressed like a sheep standing next to you.”
Yeah, but these wolves are so blatant that they leave off their sheep clothes even. The unsaved world can see that the wolf is without sheep clothes, but the deceived sheep cannot see that he is naked. Reminds me of that one pastor bloke in South America somewhere that pulled up his shirt sleeve and revealed a “666″ tattoo on his arm and proclaimed he was the antichrist. and his sheep said “yay” and also went out and got a “666″ tattooed on their arms also.
They start sheepishly and end like blatant ravaging lying wolves.
Sarah
TBN was designed to mock Christ. Someone should research their beginnings and who started that org.
I am short on time, but would love to know.
Sarah
Not only just who started TBN, but who they are, where they came from and who donated to the “cause”. All the behind the scenes stuff that really matters.
Sarah
Jacquelyn—The problem is TBN is not a faceless corporate entity. TBN IS Benny Hinn. They ARE Word of Faith and Kenneth Copeland. They are all in bed together. They are all multi- multi millionaires…they all have private jets they all live in obscene opulance. Benny is thier number 1 money maker. He is the Golden Goose. TBN are there to make the same money that Benny is there is make. If you are not real familiar with these heretics go to http://www.christianresearchservice.com/ or try Justin Peters at http://justinpeters.org/ also read The Confusing World of Benny Hinn, and The Fleecing of Christianity by Jackie Alnor. All these books use BENNY”S own words….Copelands own words …dated researched, time and location and where a video or audio copy is available. Those that say….all this is heresay and you can’t prove it…YES WE CAN! Just let these guys open their mouth….and a lie comes out. A heresy comes out. And it is ALL documented fully, dates times which church or what city etc. Like shooting fish in a barrell….I know the HOLY people don;t like it.
Maybe we should be praying for those who are deceived by these charatans intead of beating ourselves over the head. I was once one of those who was foolish, guillible, naive, and undiscerning. I watched them all, Hinn, the Copelands, the Crouchs’, Hagee. I gave money, called them for prayer, and believed SOME of what they said. Not all that was preached was a lie. However, over time, God allowed me to see some things in these people that made me uncomfortable. I have always been a truth seeker, not a follower of man no matter how “popular,” and so once my eyes were opened, it was goodbye TBN! If these followers refuse to open the bible and see the truth for themselves, there is nothing we can do. Yes we can pray, but if they are earnestly seeking the truth, God will reveal it to them, no matter how convincing they think these false preachers are.
Dear Motherofnations:
The fellow who claims to be the AntiChrist and sports a 666 tattoo on his forearm is from Puerto Rico, and not from South America. The gist of your recent comment is the same. I hope you don’t mind my bringing this detail to your attention. May the Lord bless you ….
Sincerely,
Francisco
MotherofNations— I have similar thoughts on TBN. I don’t how they started or where they were spiritually when they started it. But this is what I see now.
I see an outlet that declares to present the Word of God. That declares to be a Christian Network. That has a tenet of Faith that reads like any church. HOWEVER…..
“In those days there will come a man with a fierce countenance. He shall cause decpetion to flourish. He will be a master of the dark craft.” Dan. 8:22-27
“God will send a delusion that they will believe a lie.” 2 Thess 2
“What are the signs of the end-times master? Beware! Let no one fool you. For many shall come in my name saying I am the Christ and shall fool many.” Matt 24 “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.”
“Mens hearts will wax cold and will be given over to deception and decieving.Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,” Matt 24.
I believe that as we come into the last days…final days…that Satan has an army who are preparing the way for the coming of the lawless one. The Anti-Christ. We know from Jesus that these times will be MARKED by deception. And by Many False leaders and false prophets and teachers. Matt. 24. Mark 13, Luke 21
The parable of the wheats and the tares talks about Satan planting tares (his agents) in the church..and when the owner found out he said ..Leave them. Till the end. So we know we have matured tares in the church today in leadership positions.
We know that he whole world LOVES the Anti-Christ. So how do we get from here to there? DECEPTION. Jesus said in Rev. 2: 6 that he HATES the practices of the Nicolatians. The Nicolatians would take the Word of God and M I X it with pagan practices. The worship of pagan interest and idols such as wealth, sex, materialism, Gnostisicm and the belief they could be gods. Sound familiar?
I believe that TBN has become a tool of the devils. If Satan can appear as an angel of light so too can HIS SERVANTS appear as MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. I believe that Jesus hated mixture…and I believe that TBN offers us MIXTURE. Some truth, some sound doctrine followed by Sid Roth interviewing Todd Bentley. And The TBN people do not tell us which is which. IT IS ALL GOOD AND ALL GOD on TBN. This is EXTREME mixture.
Not only that…our BIble tells us in ACTS 17:11 to compare the message to the sciptures DAILY. Make sure it is backed up by scripture. That is what MOST people TBN viewers and many Christians DO NOT DO.
However on TBN when someone does this and calls out Paul Crouch or Benny Hinn….PAUL Crouch becomes unglued! ANGRY. “How dare you doubt the man of God? I send a curse upon you who disagrees with this ministry.” Of course this is all documented day hour city TBN episode and easily found on youtube in video format. I trust there is someone reading this who never heard Paul call for cancer to strike those who disagree with TBN. And Benny sending out curses upon the children of those who disagree..is a hot video on youtube.
So what TBN does is it teaches us NOT to check the scriptures and NOT to test the spirits like we are admonished to do in 1 John 4:1. And TBN lets its guest hosts get away with MURDER like thier Father.
TBN is in fact building a network that proclaims to be Christian but fills viewers with lies and deceit, decieving many…and making a mockery of the Word of God and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This prepares the way for the coming of a One World Religion lead by the False Prophet. I believe TBN is intrical in this preparation.
“Untouchable” is right, these ones really are kings and queens of their own castles and accountable to no-one. They do whatever they please, they live like royalty quite literally, and they answer to no-one because they are after all the King or Queen in charge of their own kingdom – and unfortunately though they may have started out with good intentions the deceitfulness of wealth and all that comes with it has now, well, deceived them. They have become their own gods and the people love it so, and this can lead from a personality cult to a more blatant form of cultism.
But this unfortunately is what happens when the people demand a king like the pagans have. This is why David stumbled and fell into sin after he became King of Israel, but not before – kingship is a snare. It was never the Lord’s will that the church should have kings, but only “judges” like Israel used to have, and only the one true King of Kings.
The Lord has made gracious concessions for the past 1700 years or so, to send revivals and harvest souls, but we must be careful not to continue to emulate what the church has largely been ever since Constantine, in spite of the Reformation, and only emulate the early church written about in the scriptures, meaning we must deal with the idolatry in our hearts which proceeds from the natural man. The “fruit” of this fleshly and corrupt religious system is coming to a head in this day, and the Lord is in the process of judging it, and I think the $2 million short-fall will soon turn out to be the least of that minister’s problems.
Brothers and SIsters. We all have made our comments on this one (including me). Very important topic here as we will all agree. We should warn the sheep of any dangers that are out there. But regardless of our views on this topic the best thing for all of us is found in Mathew 7 (and I am sharing this in love)! It talks about us building our houses upon the rock and not in the sand. A lot of this talk on this subject here has included sand. So the answer for us, as individuals, is to build our houses upon the rock. It says in these verses that storms will come. The wind, the rain, etc will come. To build on the rock we must put all of Jesus words into practice. Those around us might choose sand but we have to choose rock. We can talk about the sand and the storm and try to figure it out but one thing we can be certain about is to put our focus on the rock. We have to hang on to that foundation and hold on tight. There are more storms and sand coming! Thank God we have a relationship with the Rock of Ages! God bless us all as we get closer to His coming.
Brother Ken
Jan Crouch is a very godly woman………..makes some “Christian” people angry that she was truly healed of cancer. She is woman of faith…….and……..I love her. Everyone put down your guns.
I address this to Steve,
Due to an alligation made by you, regarding Benny Hinn, I spent an hour doing what you should have done before making the alligation, research.
Pastor Hinn is being divorced by his wife for irreconsilable differences. Period. No reference from anyone about the misconduct you suggested, except ONE annonymous blogger on HuffingtonPost.com.
The search engines “Intentionally” link Hinn to another evangelist from many years ago who had such sin, to make it look as though it was Hinn.
I DON’T LIKE HINNS FALSE GOSPEL, but to all who read Steve’s “Did you hear”, Nobody accuses Hinn of that sin.
Steve I’ve seen your site, you’re a good man, who in this case used very poor judgement.
“To build on the rock we must put all of Jesus words into practice.”
Amen, thanks for that Brother Ken..
Maybe that’s the problem we were looking to a human man leaders to take us out of the spiritual dry problems we were having. Who lead us into greater spiritual problems as seen today. Maybe we are looking onto the wrong places or people again like the Jews in their hard hour were looking to Jesus coming as the human physical king who would come and lead them out of Roman rule thus solving all there problems they thought. Haven’t we made the same mistake in looking to human men leaders again to lead us out of the spiritual mess we created. Jesus left us the Holy Spirit to teach us and lead us. Jesus quoted the prophets and said we would be taught by God. Why are we depending and looking for a human flesh man leader king again and ending up with Saul’s as our Kings?
The Jews made this mistake in 2nd Samuel when they wanted a physical man king leader instead of the spirit God of the world to lead them. Our God was perfectly cable of leading his people yet they rejected God and preferred a man King leader over a spirit God King leader. I believe we created the same thing again and need to repent of this because we have lifted up and encouraged men leaders and treated them as kings over us by giving them so much power that it corrupted them as well as us. Why because we wanted them to take us to next level or some where other than the spiritually dry place we were at. The spirit God the Jews rejected In 2nd Sam. to lead them as their King has returned to us to lead us as the King of Kings through Holy Spirit again. Lets not reject him again by putting a man of flesh leader or any human leader before him as we have done today as seen by all the hurt people of God everywhere who blame everyone but them selves. Lets return to the King of Kings through repentance for if he is the only one who could save us while in our worst state then he is the only one who can save us from the mess we have created in his church. We must repent and lets return to the kings of Kings to lead us from here on through a new found faith in him to lead us like should have all along if we had trusted him. He will not fail us now because he is God and there is no other man like him who can lead us. If you look closely you will see that OT leaders did not look or act like NT leaders after Jesus death and resurrection. Yet todays leaders look and act more like OT leaders who do you think did this to them? So who has to repent just the leaders we created? God have mercy on us!
Elaine, God may have healed Jan of cancer, but bottom line, she is a liar. I heard her say one day that Jesus was rich, which is far from the truth. She also said that the moment a person dies in their sin, Jesus stops loving them. I don’t believe that at all. I believe God loves people for all eternity, whether saved or unsaved. If you want to know the truth, read the word and God will guide you in the right direction like He did with me concerning the televangelists. It took me a long time to figure out that the reason she said what she did about Jesus being rich was to make herself feel justified in the fact that she is rich monetarily but not spiritually.
Dear HappyTrails:
I plead with you to reconsider your position on the brethren who follow after these false profits. For starters, not everyone in a congregation is a genuine believer. Furthermore, all true believers are at different levels of growth. Unfortunately, at one time I’d given to Morris Cerrulo, Mike Murdock, and Robert Tilton…until the Lord opened my eyes. Food for thought.
Until we meet again!
Francisco
No probs Francisco.
love,
Sarah
Francisco said “Dear Motherofnations:
The fellow who claims to be the AntiChrist and sports a 666 tattoo on his forearm is from Puerto Rico, and not from South America. The gist of your recent comment is the same. I hope you don’t mind my bringing this detail to your attention. May the Lord bless you ….
Sincerely,
Francisco”
I agree that knowing the names of the people who are at fault is not the TRUTH that we need to hear.
Mr.Grady gave us the TRUTH that we needed to hear !
IT WAS ABOUT OURSELVES!
WE ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE FAILED TO BE THE SALT AND LIGHT IN THIS WORLD.
WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EXTENT OF DARKNESS THAT HAS BEEN ALLOWED TO COVER OUR WORLD.
Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast REJECTED knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
The word KNOWLEDGE in this verse means PERCEPTION; DISCERNMENT; WISDOM.
NOT more bible studies and always learning, learning, learning, and never coming to a knowledge of the truth.
(2 Tim 3:7)
Many people on this forum have repeated over and over that we need DISCERNMENT.
Where do we find and receive DISCERNMENT?
Pro 1:7 The FEAR OF THE LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro 9:10 The FEAR OF THE LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.
Where is the FEAR OF THE LORD IN BELIEVERS TODAY? All I hear is how God will rescue us with a rapture…..God understands…He’s not finished with me yet…..as they call themselves “followers of Jesus” and go skipping down the road to whatever FUN/JOY and THRILLS they can find that has the LABEL “christian” on it.
The fear of the Lord is for everyone….not just unbelievers.
Men have watered down the character of God to an image of themselves.
Exd 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all [that are] wise hearted, whom I HAVE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM
Deu 34:9 And Joshua the son of Nun was FULL OF THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM;
Isa 11:2 And the SPIRIT OF THE LORD shall rest upon Him, THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING, the spirit of counsel and might,THE SPIRIT OF KNOWLEDGE AND OF THE FEAR OF THE LORD;
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, MAY GIVE UNTO YOU THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND REVELATION in the knowledge of Him:
THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM is just 1 of the names of the Holy Spirit.
This is what happens when the flesh of men acquire the knowledge of men and then try teaching the things of the Spirit of God. It is corrupted, watered down, a kernel of truth amongst the thorns.
We HAVE TO HAVE THE ILLUMINATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD IN ORDER TO TEACH AND TO DISCERN THE THINGS OF GOD.
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The following is taken from: Strong’s Number: g5545 Greek: chrisma
Anoint, Anointing:
the corresponding noun to No. 2, above, signifies “an unguent, or an anointing.” It was prepared from oil and aromatic herbs. It is used only metaphorically in the New Testament OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, 1Jo 2:20, 27, twice. The RV translates it “anointing” in all three places, instead of the AV “unction” and “anointing.”
That believers have “an anointing from the Holy One” indicates that this anointing renders them holy, separating them to God. THE PASSAGE TEACHES THAT THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE ALL EFFICIENT MEANS OF ENABLING BELIEVERS TO POSSESS A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. In the Sept., it is used of the oil for “anointing” the high priest, e.g., Exd 29:7, lit., “Thou shalt take of the oil of the anointing.” In Exd 30:25, etc., it is spoken of as “a holy anointing oil.” In Dan 9:26 chrisma stands for the “anointed” one, “Christ,” the noun standing by metonymy for the person Himself, as for the Holy Spirit in 1 John 2.
See UNCTION.
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From the looks of this country, there have been, and are now, many “believers” who are NOT FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF WISDOM like the previous scriptures talk about.
When we are born again, the Holy Spirit comes and DWELLS WITHIN US IMMEDIATELY.
THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE “FILLED” .
A believer is FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHEN THEY DENY THEIR SELF THE RIGHT TO RULE ANY PART OF THEIR LIFE, AND SURRENDER TO THE AUTHORITY AND LEADING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD ALONE. Read Romans 8 and Galatians 5
This is the SPIRIT FILLED LIFE THAT IS EXPECTED OF US. THIS IS BEING CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST. When we are walking by the Spirit, as Galatians calls BEING FILLED, we are holy and do not sin. When we quench or grieve the Holy Spirit, then we have re-taken self-rule and are walking in the flesh. The Holy Spirit does not leave us, He is quenched, grieved within us. We can return to the fullness of the Spirit by repentance and cleansing of the heart by God.
According to scripture, IF a believer is FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT, THEN THAT BELIEVER IS FILLED WITH THE THINGS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHICH ARE….HIS CHARACTER (which is HOLINESS), HIS POWER, HIS FRUIT, HIS GIFTS.
Therefore, those who claim to be FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT, according to scripture, SHOULD BE FILLED WITH DISCERNMENT AND WISDOM…….(plus all the other attributes of the Holy Spirit)( I suggest doing a word search at blueletterbible.org for all the names of the Holy Spirit, very enlightening)
Jesus speaks about the Holy Spirit
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (The disciples are INDWELT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT)
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
You can speak in tongues all you want, but if you are not OUTWARDLY EXHIBITING THE CHARACTER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT….YOU ARE NOT FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
Mr. Grady and Brother Andrew and others,
It’s a good article – thank God! – and it will have a lot of influence for good. We can recognize the prosperity preachers by their preaching. The Lord is giving them a chance to repent, just like He gave us a chance to repent of being partly brainwashed and supporting them.
It hurts to see so many people deceiving and being deceived. It hurts even more that the sheep are being spiritually starved and the Name of Jesus is being dragged through the dirt. But let’s not despise the day of small beginnings. God bless you all!
If any worms are still crawling out of this can, perhaps they can be used to feed the hungry fish…
Blessings!
Exodus 6:5-8
(5) And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel whom the Egyptians keep in bondage, and I have remembered My covenant. (6) Therefore say to the children of Israel: ‘I am the LORD; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments. (7) I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I am the LORD your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. (8) And I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as a heritage: I am the LORD.’”
God promises to bring them out of their bondage, and we understand this also applies to us in that He is bringing us out of spiritual bondage. In those of us humbly committed to seeking His Will, He is getting to the root of the problem.
The Old Covenant was weak through the flesh. We are no different from the Israelites; human nature has not changed, nor has Satan or the world. God certainly has not changed, nor His Spirit or His Truth. There is NOTHING new under the sun only the same old rugged cross.
The IMMUTABILITY (or unchangeableness) OF GOD IS PART OF THAT WHICH MAKES GOD THE ONE TRUE GOD.
All of these things being constant, the problem is still in us.
The solution has to be a change of mind by the pure Word of God as is clearly revealed to us in the BIBLE.
The role of the Holy Spirit is to empower us to apply the Word of God to our lives NEVER to give us new revelation.
We learn from John 8:32 that truth shall make us free.
We also find, in John 8:44-45, that Satan was a murderer and a liar questioning the Word of God from the beginning.
He was the one who instigated the sins of Adam and Eve, by asking the question “Did GOD really say that?” and suggesting that disobedience to the revealed will of God might actually lead to the disobedient becoming like God. This is strikingly similar to the nonsense being promulgated today.
When we understand, then, that our bondage is directly tied into lies and deceit we are inspired to be wholly committed to seeking the Will of God as revealed to us in HIS WORD the BIBLE.
The HOLY SPIRIT will ALWAYS act to confirm HIS WORD as revealed to us in the BIBLE. He will NEVER contradict that Word.
This satanic notion of questioning the Word of God or doubting the authority of the BIBLE is what we have to be broken free from.
God never lies; His Word is always true. His HOLY SPIRIT has come to confirm HIS WORD NOT CONTRADICT IT.
The truly spirit filled, bible believing born again christian can and MUST rely on it TOTALLY. IF we use the BIBLE as HE intended us to use it, it will keep us free and protect us from falling back into the world and the myriad of false religious TEACHINGS AND PRACTICES available to us in the world once again.
John 8:31
Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Usually, God does not remove us from one geographical location to another when we are called. We have to come out of our own personal, spiritual bondage, regardless of our location, because that is the real problem. We physically remain where we are, but something else has to be added.
Life takes its values from its goals and purposes. Most people’s purpose in life is merely physical, so the things that they pursue in life and the means that they use to accomplish their goals are what are bringing everyone into bondage. The goals are carnal, and the ways of reaching them are also carnal. They involve lying, murder, adultery, fornication, stealing, coveting, self promotion at the expense of humble submission to the revealed will of God, taking God’s name in vain, or building statues to God, either physically or metaphorically such as by engaging in “blind allegiance to anointed ones” as has become popular within the harlot church.
Breaking the Ten Commandments are involved, but it is much bigger than that.
The great goal of genuine christianity causes a person to set the very highest of standards. The goal is the Kingdom of God. No goal has higher standards. It takes the pure unadulterated Word of God to keep one strengthened to accomplish this goal.
I REPEAT:
We learn from John 8:32 that the truth shall make us free.
The solution has to be a change of mind by the pure Word of God as is clearly revealed to us in the BIBLE.
The role of the Holy Spirit is to empower the truly born again christian humbly submitted to seeking and doing HIS will to apply the truth of the Word of God, as revealed to us in The Bible, to our lives. The HOLY SPIRIT will NEVER to give us new revelation or contradict the BIBLE in any way..
To Evan Wiggs, if more evangelists followed your humble example in relying soley on God for provision and funds, I don’t think we’d have this huge problem. Corrie Ten Boom did the same thing, traveled the world while waiting on God to not only give her direction on where to go but to supply her needs (air fare, food, etc.). Can you imagine this precious saint getting on TV back when she was alive and acting like some of these “pretenders” do? She obviously would have had a totally different character if she did.
It sounds like you have a wonderful ministry. It’s sad that more churches in America do not welcome you with open arms. May God bless you mightily as you do His will.
Much could be said.The Lord sovereignly started showing as he has and will with others that they are greedy dogs.There are many words used in the bible to describe these people that have been around forever.History repeats as is stated in Ecc.1:9.What we see happening in the so called”church”is talked about in Jeremiah the 5th chapter and Psalm the 5th chapter,just to name a couple of places.God’s judgement is exposing these people who are referred to in James With the same kind of love and understanding Peter showed in dealing with Ananias and Sapphira,the same love Jesus showed when he drove the money changers out of the temple,the same as Paul showd when he talked about preachers with another gospel saying let them be anathema and so on.To use Mike Murdock as an example,he has made the statement may my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if this or that.I expect that the Lord may do just that to him.God is going to continue to bring these people down like he did Saul and replace them with men who love to do the Lord’s will totally submitted to him like David.That thing we see as the visible church is spiritual Babylon and the Lord said in Jer. 51 she would not be healed.The Lord also said come out of her my people and be not a partaker of her sins.Judgement begins at the house of God.They have gotten so bad they think they can marry mutiple times and turn around and council married couples and write books about marriage.Some think they can get into homosexuality and not repent of it and turn around and start another church.No wonder there is no respect for the so called church.There is going to emerge a true Bride that that the tares durst not join themselves to them for fear.I have prayed many times for this day.God’s elect will not be decieved.Pray that you are among those chosen from among the many called.
Andrew,
I’ve been reading your posts for a while now, and also the comments pages that ALWAYS follow. I have an analogy I’d like to share. Years ago I worked as a teller in a bank. As most banks are concerned about counterfeit money getting passed through their banks, the tellers were required to go through some training. At first I thought they were going to teach us how to spot counterfeit bills, but to my surprise, it was the exact opposite. The training centered on “the real thing” not the fake. We were taught what it felt like, what it looked like, the distinct markings, and the little identifiers that were present. They said if we were educated enough on the real thing, when a fake came through our hands we would be able to spot it pretty quickly. I truly think this is the biggest issue with true christianity today. There is much ado about what true christianity IS NOT, that we forgot our calling, which is to edify the body of Christ. I’m not saying these ministries are right, not by any means, but if true followers of Christ would just share what it means to walk the true christian walk, I believe the Holy Spirit would allow us to spot the fakes without much effort. It seems most would rather spend the majority of their time pointing out what’s wrong with the other guy, instead of what’s right with the true christians. And this is where I must be truly honest with you. Although in the past I have found your posts very encouraging, lately I feel your posts are far too controversial. Not that there is not a time or place for controversial, but you need not read far on the comment pages to realize that people feel compelled to let us know whether you are right or wrong. Maybe if you just put the posts out there and forgot the comment pages, the Holy Spirit could be the one persuading people instead of other people’s comments. It seems like these comment pages are just bringing out some real ugliness, that really has no place in our lives. I would like to believe that you do not post these controversial articles for anything more than information, but from what I’ve seen of your involvement in the comment pages, it seems you kind of like the controversy. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but that’s just what it seems like to me. I did not right this to condemn you only to challenge the real purpose of the articles and especially the purpose of the comment pages.
Andrew,
I hope you and the others who post here will take what IMREDEEMED has written to heart.
Phil. 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, it there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
May the Lord bless you and give you understanding where this is concerned.
I suspect that the “It Is High Time to Awake” call is going out as never before. I started out reading Dave Hunt’s warnings at the beginnings, but over the years, with a constant wearing away of defenses, ended up following the teaching of the false shepherds… Not quite sure how it happened either, just that it became so pervasive and part of our “church culture”, and TV to be sure… One thing I notice is it has been YEARS since I heard sermons on the letters of Paul, except for the parts that have to do with practical issues of family life, doing good works, etc… but the great doctrines of the church? … about like a grain of sand on the beach as far as prevalence. But LOTS of O.T. teaching, though… But very seldom the Bible “Letters to the Churches by the Fathers of the Faith, such as Paul, Peter, James, etc. My current pastor even jokes about the fact that his “texts” are most always from the Old Testament! – BUT… I think maybe the tide is finally turning… It’s not just me, but I’m finding many others I know are suddenly looking around and having their eyes opened, not as a “movement,” must many individuals seemingly on their own waking up… I do have to say that recently looking at some of the YouTube videos was quite an eye-opener! Especially that one on MorningStar. Because the video started out with the scenes the makers of the video had put first that only had text up at the beginning, I thought that the creepy music and wailing was their overboard way of depicting MorningStar as a voodoo cult, which I thought was going too far. Then as it progressed, when the actual scenes from a MorningStar service were shown, boy, was I shocked! All that creepy voodoo stuff WAS the service! I was appalled. So I have to say that your YouTube postings got me going, and I’ve been at it 3-4 days straight, reading and getting a crash course on “Ways I’ve Been Deceived.” God help us. I do repent. I was very overwhelmed and depressed at first. The worst part being that I introduced my family to this! And wondering, now where do I go? We’ve got crazy demon “churches” and “dead” churches. Now what? I will warn others about the deception. I will immediately stop all donations to these ministries, even had a couple set up as small donation via direct debit, so will have to stop those. (Not all my giving was to deceivers, thank goodness!) Also altered my TV recordings and stopped saving all Word of Faith & Deceiver ministers. My final thought: WHY NOT START A CHRISTIAN NETWORK THAT PREACHES THE REAL GOSPEL… NO DECEIVERS NEED APPLY!
To: IMREDEEMED and Observer,
Your admonition sounds well founded.
The scripture verses you relate accurately support your view. If that was the Bible in it’s entirity I would not be responding, there would be nothing I could say.
However, let us look at the God’s Word as a whole.
The discussion of controversy is throughout. Not only is story form, but in relations between brethern and leaders. The word points out the horrible deeds of say, Davids son, or Jobs friends and thousands of similiar “discussions” for our benefit and understanding. Paul admonishes us to discuss and seek understanding regarding wolves “which HE warns about day and night”. Good thing Paul didn’t share your taste for “focused” attentions based on limited instruction of ONE aspect of our relationships.
The Word even tells us the Angels watch us with “great interest”. Are they being busy-bodies? Or do they like we, need to explore, discuss, admonish, correct, share and so on.
We were not intended to live a single faceted life, solely focused the the one aspect of the Word you have focused on, although that facet is as important as any other facet. We sir engage in wars with the flesh, spirit and physical worlds. We “Interact” with each other in many way’s. That is healthy. Yes, we see things in inapprorpriate way’s sometimes, and others while correct, agree and disagree. It’s called learning, growing and experiencing each other, hopefully with God infused in all.
Our lives with God are not so bland and single faceted as your “correction” would have us be.
Learn, discuss, grow, interact and yes correct, but always love, discern and seek. That is how our Lord made us. Enjoy the spice God intended you to partake in and enjoy the flavor of, in love.
Toni…..PRAISE TO GOD for showing you His faithfulness and deep love for you. Thank you Lord for pouring Your Light out into the darkness and exposing the lies.
This is one reason for these websites.
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Wayne……Jesus Christ said HE IS THE TRUTH. Jesus is STILL ALIVE and dwelling INSIDE each of His followers.
This is Strong’s definition of the Greek word
Revelation:
“an uncovering” (akin to apokalupto; see above), “is used in the NT of
(a) the drawing away by Christ of the veil of darkness covering the Gentiles, Luk 2:32; cp. Isa 25:7;
(b) ‘the mystery,’ the purpose of God in this age, Rom 16:25; Eph 3:3;
(c) the communication of the knowledge of God to the soul, Eph 1:17;
(d) an expression of the mind of God for the instruction of the church, 1Cr 14:6, 26, for the instruction of the Apostle Paul, 2Cr 12:1, 7; Gal 1:12, and for his guidance, Gal 2:2;
(e) the Lord Jesus Christ, to the saints at His Parousia, 1Cr 1:7, RV (AV, ‘coming’); 1Pe 1:7, RV (AV, ‘appearing’), 13; 4:13;
(f) the Lord Jesus Christ when He comes to dispense the judgments of God, 2Th 1:7; cp. Rom 2:5;
(g) the saints, to the creation, in association with Christ in His glorious reign, Rom 8:19, RV, ‘revealing’ (AV, ‘manifestation’);
(h) the symbolic forecast of the final judgments of God, Rev 1:1 (hence the Greek title of the book, transliterated ‘Apocalypse’ and translated ‘Revelation’).” *
[* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 228, 229.]
See APPEARING, COMING, LIGHTEN, B, Note, MANIFESTATION.
Let us thank God that He still pours out revelation to us.
JByron says:
I have had a change of heart. After seeing the lack of discernment from many of the brothers and sisters, Naming names may not be profitable.
If people lack discernement how does actually pointing your finger at a habitual hereticsl liars who steal in Jesus name… not be profitable?
The problem with vaguely quoting scriptures about wolves in sheeps clothing or tares amongst the wheat, or false teachers, leaders and prteachers as in Matt. 24….when you just quote vague discriptions..most would never see THEIR favorite TV Preacher Stars as the wolf you were vaguely describing. IN other words if I talked about those who used Jesus to manufacture wealth and manipulate others…people like Elaine would say “Oh yes I agree, watch out for those people”…. and she would never see or recognize that I am talking about JAN CROUCH, and Kenneth Copeland 2 or her favorites. But when we do name names like the Apostle Paul did in 2 Tim 2:17 when he talked about their teachings will spread like gangrene and then names to 2 people by name. Then all can see. I once was involved in the WOF cult and TBN and eventually I found Endtimes prohetic website Miriam Franklin and started reading facts about these people their sexual dysfunctions (Ted Haggard, Lonnie Ford, Jimmy Swaggert, Earl Paulk. Clarence Mcclendon..and on and on etc) their manipulation, and so on …and this helped open my eyes. So I disagree with we shouldn’t name names, especially if we are mature and can back up particular heresies with days, times, dates, location, sermon #’s, PTL show dates and video time locations etc. Sometimes you have to actually blow your horn when you are a watchman on the tower to warn of an advancing army and not sit their TOO holy to say anything negative about the wolves at the door.
JimmieKrackKorn……but can you see that is not the solution……the false will always be with us….so we would have to CONTINUALLY name them and we would have to continually be lifting every rock to find them all over the country. They are not ALL on TV….the so called “pastors” watch TV and then preach it to their congregations.
God’s solution to OVERCOMING THE WORLD AND THE DEVIL AND THE FLESH is the only solution. BE YE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT. And that is to teach and preach how to walk by the Spirit 24/7. Rom 8 and Gal 5. That is our SHIELD according to Ephesians 6.
THAT IS HOW A FOLLOWER IS FILLED WITH DISCERNMENT WHICH PROTECTS THEM FROM DECEPTION.
BRAVO, Imredeemed!!! (and several others!!)
I am a 3rd generation pastor (I’m sure older than MOST of you that have written here) and have seen MANY so called “movements” come and go. There has always been the genuine revelation that STARTED a “movement”… and then the swift perversion (or counterfeit) OF that movement, being “sown” (the wheat and the tares Matt 13:24-30 and Jesus’ explanation in verses 37-43) in immediately after it had started. Then, because people do not discern the REAL from the “counterfeit”, those not involved in the “movement” and some who ARE, want to toss EVERYTHING out!!
In Acts 5:34-39, a very wise man, Gamaliel (who actually taught Paul/Saul), told of a couple of other “leaders” who WERE “frauds”, and how eventually, they came to nothing. He ends in verses 38 & 39, with the statement, “And now I say to you, keep away from these men (Peter & company) and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.”
As with the tares (poisonous “fruit/seed”) and the wheat (life-giving “fruit/seed”), the owner of the field was made aware of the tares, by the servants. His response in verse 28and 29, “He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.”
Just reading the “comments” here, has saddened my heart. As “Jackrabbit” wrote (I quote) “after reading all of the posts I needed to go back to God and refresh myself with His presence for a while. It is like His Holy Spirit dwelling in me was being quenched by all of the darkness in these posts.” He felt “darkness” after reading so many “negatives” and actually “hate” filled words.
THIS is satan’s tactics… cause strife, suspicion and discord among the believers (I didn’t say among the charlatans!) and cause them to be so at each others throats, deciding who is “right” and who is “wrong”… they FORGET the GREAT commission!!
People are going to hell every second, because we have gotten so off the path of the “Good News” of God, that we spend MUCH of our time, arguing amongst ourselves!!
Paul the apostle, used to do that DAILY (argue/debate in the synagogues). HOWEVER… toward the END of his life, after maturing, Paul said, these things are “unprofitable and useless”. (Titus 3:9) Or as in 2 Timothy 2:14 “…not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers”, letting us know that those “listening in” (reading) could really be hurt by it!!
Just as trying to pull up the tares “man’s way”, could hurt the wheat!!
God is WELL able, through our PRAYERS (not our accusations), to bring down the powers of deception (in ALL “camps”)!! We are told that this deception (or counterfeit) will be SO real appearing, that in Matt 24:24 Jesus says “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, IF POSSIBLE (emphasis mine), even the elect.” !!!!!
Pretty heavy, eh? THIS is when we need to TRUST GOD!!! I think I remember reading in the Word, that if one asks his father for a loaf of bread, fish or an egg, the “good” human father would not give the child a stone, a serpent or a scorpion. Then it goes on to say, that… in comparison to God… WE are EVIL, yet WE give good things to our children!! So… HOW MUCH MORE WILL GOD GIVE (GOOD THINGS) the HOLY SPIRIT,TO THOSE WHO ASK!! (Luke 11:11-13) in I John 2:20 we are told “But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.” Some translations say, you know the Truth!! The Spirit of God GUIDES us into all TRUTH!! (John 16:13)
Bottom line… if we are obedient to do what God has called US to do… praying without ceasing, spreading the GOOD news, walking in his agape Love, studying the Word, etc., etc., etc., OUR “fruit/seed” will be known for the GENUINE that it is, and the “tare’s” will be seen for who THEY are… the counterfeit!!
GOD will deal with the counterfeit “tares” in HIS time… and HIS WAY!!
Blessings to ALL of you!!
JKK,
Point well taken, and one I can’t seem to make up my mind on.
I just noticed that when names were named, the “devotees” of those ministries seemed so blind, and instead of seeing the point, went into defense and even slight anger mode, “My guy/gal” isn’t like that, or they get people saved, Jan was healed and cries a lot, she is sincere” and so on.
I was thinking, MAYBE, just sayin “Watch for this and that” would click better for the flock to see, because when one is angry because of a specific name, they go into defense mode and MAYBE would not see as clearly, like they MAY if not offended.
But I’m not sure, and that’s why I am grateful for this OPEN forum.
They will read this exchange! Could help them to see at arms length.
Happy Trails,
I heard Ken Copeland and Benny Hinn say the exact same things.
One big reason why many will lose faith and be offended and fall away in these last days is because so many have believed these false profits and false teachers.Not everyone has dicerning of spirits,even to discern what would seem obvious to some.Tares can look alot like wheat.Satan can appear as an angel of light and so can his ministers.These televangelists all have at least one thing in common,they are promoting another Jesus, another gospel.The “church has excepted from satan what Jesus rejected in the wilderness (money,power,recognition for what mighty men of God they think themselves to be).There are going to be more demon spirits in the church decieving than out of the church.These discussions could be considered iron sharpens iron.
Happytrails your solution is to ignore ministries that reach hundreds of millions of people around the world….when they are teaching them abominable EVEN ANTI-CHRIST doctrines. The problem is you do not really SEE or believe that these ministries are corrupt. Happytrails you don’t have to say a word about any minister if you do not want to. God has given some the boldness to face down these demonic heretics and as shepards make sure that the flock is protected. I know preachers of churches who knew that his staff was sneaking down to Todd Bentley’s Demonfest in Lakeland and didn’t want to say anything negative so he never broached the topic. IN reality he was a poor pastor, one who out of fear and being scared and weak he allowed his staff to become corrupted by the demonic impartation that Todd “passed” to those who came.
Like I said earlier in a post. THERE ARE WAY TOO MANY SUPER HOLY PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD. THEY ARE SCARED TO SAY ANYTHING THAT MIGHT OFFEND SOMEONE. WHICH MAY COST SOMEONE THIER SALVATION…THANK GOD JESUS HAD THE BRAVADO TO FACE DOWN THOSE WHO SOUGHT TO DISRUPT HIS MINISTRY…AND CORRUPT HIS SHEEP. MANY HERE WOULD NOT PASS THAT TEST. TOO HOLY AND GOOD.
lester Brown……HOMERUN!
This is a very good article.For me i need no names, the culprits are obvious.If tomorrow every one of the so called Christian tv sites went off the air i doubt the purposes of Almighty God would be affected one iota.
J Byron… I don’t know which of my comments you are suggesting is Copelands or Hinns. If it is important, please tell me.
I do agree with your comment…..that pointing the finger does create animosity and DEFENSIVENESS….which means they are not OPEN TO THE TRUTH….BUT HAVE CLOSED THEIR EARS, EYES, HEARTS.
Does that sound like the solution for turning people away from the deception and back to the truth?
God has a better way is all I’m saying here. And that is to DISCIPLE believers in how to walk by His Spirit per Romans 8 and Gal 5 and Eph 6….SO THAT THEY ARE FILLED WITH HIS SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND DISCERNMENT. (as I mentioned with scriptures in an earlier comment.
JimmieKrackKorn….I am not saying to ignore, I am not saying to not name……I have said there is a BETTER WAY THAT IS PERMANENT IN A BELIEVER’S LIFE. GOD’S WAY OF PROTECTING HIS CHILDREN FROM DECEPTION IS WALKING BY HIS SPIRIT. Walking by His Spirit fills us with the Holy Spirit of Wisdom and discernment. It also places us into the Armour of God and behind His shield of faith which quenches all the fiery darts of the evil one.
I did have more than 1 comment on this page.
It is utterly demonic to assume that the Holy Spirit of God would contradict the clear teachings of the Word of God (The Bible) in any way. This is what these super spiritual wackos are doing.
Any suggestion that the Holy Spirit would present a different Jesus to the one clearly defined in the BIBLE is clearly inspired by Satan in the very same manner in which SATAN inspired the fall of Adam and Eve. Let God be TRUE and every man a liar if they choose to contradict the Word of God in any way.
The way to deal with these false prophets and false teachers is as clearly stated in the Bible itself
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
We MUST remain faithful to the Word of God alone if we are to escape the coming Judgement of God against those who do NOT love the TRUTH of the Word of God.
WALKING IN THE SPIRIT PRIMARILY REQUIRES FAITHFULNESS AND TOTAL COMMITMENT TO THE WORD OF GOD ALONE!!!!
ANY OTHER SPIRIT OR LEADING IS ABSOLUTELY DEMONIC!!!!
When the tares have overtaken the field as it has done in the contemporary church the only thing to do is to follow the clear teaching of scripture as presented in
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
“Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning
our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you
exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was
once for all delivered to the saints.” – Jude 3
The need to change his purpose is seen in the next verse:
“For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were
marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the
grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and
our Lord Jesus Christ.” – Jude 4
That men “crept in unnoticed” should give us pause…
a. That such could happen, despite the many warnings given by Jesus, Paul, and Peter
b. How much easier, then, for this to happen today when we live in a time far removed from those initial warnings!
In light of this, Jude’s call to “contend earnestly for the faith”
becomes even more relevant for us today…
a. We ought to appreciate “the need” to contend for the faith
b. We should understand “the how” when it comes to contending
earnestly for the faith
IN SEEKING DISCERNMENT IT IS ESSENTIAL TO REALIZE THE BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES:
I. THE “NEED” TO CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH
A. SOME WILL DENY THE ALL-SUFFICIENCY OF THE SCRIPTURES…
1. This I infer from the phrase “the faith which once for all
delivered to the saints”
a. The expression “once for all” can rightly be worded “one
time for all time”
b. That is, “the faith” (that body of doctrine which we are to
believe) was delivered to the church “one time for all
time”
— Revelation was not to be repeated, nor was there more to be
revealed later on!
2. That God has revealed all that He would have us know is
evident from such statements like those of:
a. Paul, telling the Ephesian elders he had not shunned to
proclaim “the whole counsel of God” – Ac 20:27
b. Peter, writing that God has given us “all things that
pertain to life and godliness” – 2Pe 1:3
— If we have “all things”, and if we have the “whole counsel
of God”, what else is there?
3. Thus the Scriptures, which contain the faith delivered “once
for all”, contains ALL we need to become what God wants of us!
– cf. 2Ti 3:16-17
4. When people suggest:
a. That God’s revelation is incomplete, or it is still in
progress
b. Or that God’s revelation needs to be repeated
— Then our task is to “contend earnestly for the faith once
delivered”!
DECEPTION AT THIS POINT IS LEADING MANY NAIVE PEOPLE TO HELL FALSELY BELIEVING THEY ARE SAVED!
B. SOME WILL PERVERT THE DOCTRINE OF GRACE…
1. There were those in Jude’s day “who turn the grace of our God
into licentiousness (lewdness)”
a. Their doctrine of grace gave them excuse to sin
b. So much so, that they engaged in that which was openly
shameful (lewd)
— Perhaps they said: “Let us sin so that grace may abound!”
2. There are some today who pervert the grace of God…
a. To excuse their disregard for the commands found in God’s
Word
b. To justify their lifestyle that is contrary to the
principles of the Bible
— For they are likely to say: “God is too loving, His grace
is too wonderful, to condemn us when we are so sincere!”
3. But those who “contend earnestly for the faith” will be ever
mindful of what the grace of God truly teaches – cf. Tit 2:
11-12
a. To deny ungodliness and worldly lusts!
b. To live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age!
C. SOME WILL DENY GOD’S AUTHORITY…
1. Jude had to deal with those who “deny the only Lord God and
our Lord Jesus Christ”
a. The emphasis appears to be on the term “Lord”, used to
describe God and Jesus
b. The term “lord” comes from kurios {koo’-ree-os}
1) Which is related to the word kuros (supremacy)
2) Meaning “supreme in authority”
c. These people were denying the authority rightly belonging
to God and Jesus
2. Today we often face people denying the authority of God and
Jesus
a. By their lack of respect to the Word of God
b. By their setting up other standards of authority for what
they believe or do
1) Such as a synod, convention, council
2) Such as a pope, bishop, minister, or their own person
3. But those who “contend earnestly for the faith once
delivered”…
a. Will recognize the authority which belongs to Christ -
Mt 28:18; Ep 1:21-22
b. Will recognize the authority delegated to His apostles -
Jn 13:20; 1Co 14:37; 1Th 2:13; Ac 2:42
[Clearly the need to "contend earnestly for the faith" is present, for
just as there were those in Jude's day who...
- denied the all-sufficiency of God's Word
- perverted the doctrine of grace
- denied the authority of God and Jesus
...so there are such people today! How then shall we do it?]
II. THE “HOW” TO CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH
A. WE MUST CONTEND EARNESTLY…
1. From the “Believers’ Study Bible”:
a. The vivid expression epagonizomai (Gk.) is translated
“contend earnestly” and is related to the English word
“agony.”
b. The term is associated with strife and combat of a most
vigorous and determined variety.
c. The present tense of the verb indicates that the Christian
struggle is to be continuous.
d. Jude believed that the foundational tenets of the Christian
faith were under attack. Nothing but vigorous
counter-contention would be sufficient.
2. The use of such an expression therefore suggests:
a. The matter is serious; WE ARE AT WAR!!!!!
1) Paul describes the nature of our warfare in 2Co 10:3-6
2) And again in Ep 6:10-13
b. This is not a time to be unprepared; we must arm ourselves!
— We must therefore contend with vigor, even to the point of
agony, for “the faith once delivered to the saints”!
B. WE MUST USE THE WEAPONS AT OUR DISPOSAL…
1. Paul defines our weaponry in Ep 6:13-18
a. Girded with truth
b. The breastplate of righteousness
c. Feet shod with the gospel of peace
d. The shield of faith
e. The helmet of salvation
f. The sword of the Spirit, the Word of God
g. Watching with all prayer
2. Notice that most of these things are for our own defense, lest
we be lost in the struggle!
a. The elements of truth, righteousness, the gospel, faith,
salvation, etc., are needed for our own salvation as much
as for those we seek to conquer
b. Make sure that you let them “remove the plank for your own
eye” so you will be able to see clear “to remove speck out
of your brother’s eye” – cf. Mt 7:3-5
c. Some people are so quick to take up the “sword”, they leave
the rest of their armor behind!
3. Paul also has something to say about other weapons that are
“mighty in God”
a. Such qualities as “the meekness and gentleness of Christ”
– 2Co 10:1-6
b. Making sure that we are first “spiritual”, and then
displaying gentleness and caution – Ga 6:1
c. Refraining from quarrels, applying gentleness, the Word,
with patience and humility correcting the opposition – 2 Ti
2:23-26
CONCLUSION
The call to “contend earnestly for the faith”
1. is NOT a license to engage in “contentions” and “outbursts of wrath” – cf. Ga 5:19-21;1Co 3:1-3
2. IS a call to vigorously contend with all the weapons at our
disposal…
a. First and foremost, with the Word of God, applied first to self
and then to others
b. But also, with the Christ-like qualities that are “mighty in God”
to win people over to obedience to Christ
3. IS the fact.. that many
a. are not obeying Christ as Lord
b. are perverting His teaching or setting themselves up as their own authority by suggesting they are receiving special revealtions
…that makes it necessary that we “contend earnestly for the faith
ONCE FOR ALL delivered to the saints”
Dear friend, whose side of this battle are YOU on? Have you submitted
to Him whom God has made both Lord and Christ? Are you continuing
steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine? – cf. Ac 2:36-42
OUR ETERNAL DESTINY DEPENDS ON OUR ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS
Happy Trails,
I refer to:
God’s solution to OVERCOMING THE WORLD AND THE DEVIL AND THE FLESH is the only solution. BE YE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT. And that is to teach and preach how to walk by the Spirit 24/7. Rom 8 and Gal 5. That is our SHIELD according to Ephesians 6.
THAT IS HOW A FOLLOWER IS FILLED WITH DISCERNMENT WHICH PROTECTS THEM FROM DECEPTION.
My wonderful and Godly mother will tell me “Well, Benny always says “Always check what I say by scripture”, and”The Spirit witnesses to me that Benny is a Annointed Man of God”.
No disrespect to you Happy Trails, please understand, it was not a belittlement of your most valid and right point, RATHER, Copeland, for instance, will preach on the full armor of God and letting the Word be the final Word, and then explain how he could have done what Jesus did, and so could you, if you knew what Jesus knew”!
He and they all twist the meaning of scripture and good people think, well, if that’s what scriture say’s Copeland must be true.
Many of these Godly people just ain’t bright enough to understand when people they think they should trust quote the Word in ways It was not intended.
These are not greedy, evil, ear tickled false Christians, many are good, loving God Fearing parts of the body who just don’t know any better.
Trust me, my mom LOVES the Lord, yes The Real Lord. She has prayed all us kids into the kingdom. Never a better woman has walked the Earth. But God help her, she let’s these clowns worm their way into her heart because they cry, act like they care and is not “Book learned” as much as taught. God help us.
REGARDLESS OF WHO OR WHAT YOU MAY PRAY TO –
FALSE RELIGION IS EVERYWHERE –
ANDREW IS BARELY TOUCHING THE SURFACE.
ONLY THE GOD OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY – EITHER WE WILL FOLLOW HIM HIS WAY OR WE WILL BE DELUDED INTO HELL DOING THINGS OUR WAY OR BEING DELUDED BY DOCTRINES OF DEMONS AND DEMONIC SPIRITS RATHER THAN THE HOLY SPIRITS.
REPENT AND TURN TO JESUS BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!!!!!!!
Wayne,
Perhaps I have spoken too much into this stream, but which doctrinal point causes a born again believer to lose their salvation and go to hell.
Let’s say a 77 year old woman, who has served God her whole life, accepting the gift of Salvation by grace through saving faith in Jesus, who was born of the virgin through the will of the Father, by the power of the Holy Spirit, The Word bacome Flesh to both reveal God to man, and deliver Himself up as a sacrifice for all who would receive Him. True saving faith, serving Him in way’s perhaps to dwarf even you sincere efforts in this life.
Then in her 60th year of life tunes into TBN, the rest can be abbreviated. She has not turned from God, yet has been deluded by “some” doctrinal falisies such as WOF offers, with a sincere heart to be right with God. No Greed, No turning from the faith ince delivered, perhaps just a sheered sheep.
I sense a legalism and hardness in your grace. Are you a shepard who seeks the lost sheep? Or one who simply yells turn or burn?
Or do you simply condemn the sheep to be a goat because they have eaten some goat food?
Does not the sheep get sick from eating the goats food, yes. Does that make them a goat, God Forbid such a harsh judgement.
At what point Wayne, doe your son or daughter cease being your son or daughter? When they fall into deception? When they lose their way on the path home. I would hope you would not cease realizing they remain your kids, I hope God shares my opinion.
Wayne, perhaps if you are wrong and I am right, would you have yourself condemned because of your mistake? Is your lack of faith in the grace of our Lord is just as bad as their thinking they can have health if they truly believe God for it, or having their poverty erased.
If we say we are without sin, we make God a liar and ourselves a fool.
Perhaps Wayne, We ALL need to repent before it’s too late. Let’s start here with you and I. I have a feeling we will need to repeat this process everyday until glorified.
O Lord, open the eyes of we Your Church to see who is of You and who is of the devil, let us know in our hearts with assurance and conviction who is of You and who is of the enemy…
O God, release from heaven a spirit of discernment, the gift of discernment, over Your Body here on earth and open our eyes to see the depth of the deception which has taken hold of what has been called “Your Church”…
As the lights go on in our hearts and we rise from a spirit of repentance and as we are cleansed with the understanding of the deception which we’ve been under let us turn our hearts back to You…
Let us turn our hearts back to You Yourself and Your Ways and Your Truth and Your Passion and Your Love and Your Holiness and Your Justice and Your Compassion and Your Righteousness and Your Sovereignty and Your Right to Rule…
“You are God and we praise You” – the song says, O yes Lord, we praise You that You are releasing us from the spirit of oppression which has been over Your Church the spirit of delusion which has been over Your Church and the spirit of slumber which has been over Your Church and You are restoring Your Zeal and Your Passion to Your Church for Yourself…
You are purifying Your Bride, Your Church, Your Body You are turning our hearts towards You again, You are drawing us with cords of lovingkindness and You are removing our sin from us…
As You draw us we are raised up with You and see more and more the reality of who You are and what You are doing in this world and Your awesome Sovereignty over the affairs of men, You Father are at perfect peace, You are not worried, You are not troubled, You are in complete control, You have a plan and You are fulfilling Your plan for Your Church, Praise You Father for the purifying work of the Blood of Jesus in each of our lives…
Praise You Father that You know each of us, Your children, by Name and that not a sparrow falls to the ground without Your knowledge, O unite us in the truth of Your word, let us stand strong and tall and unashamed and proclaim and live the gospel, let us be in light shining on a hill, “that all men might see the truth and know, You are the way to heaven” – as the song says…
“We want to see Jesus lifted up and banner that flies across the sky that all men might see the truth and know, You are the way to heaven” – as the song says…
O Praise You Father, turn our hearts back to You again, let us believe again, let us encourage ourselves in the Lord, the Lord never changes, He is a shelter to all who take refuge in Him, He will be our Rock and our High Tower from the enemy, He will not permit our foot to slip and He will perserve us in His sanctuary from all evil and keep us faultless until the day of Christ Jesus…
“The earth is the LORD’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.”
Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.” (Psalm 24 KJV)
“Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” (1 Cor 6:11 NASB)
“Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.” (Jude verses 24-25 KJV)
Efforts to pervert the clear teachings of the Word of God are indeed very tragic and a clear confirmation of the scriptural warning that God is allowing those who do not LOVE the simple TRUTH of HIS WORD to be deluded by whatever it is they do love.
An example of this may be seen seen by considering the reason why unity is absolutely impossible between TRULY BORN AGAIN BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIANS and those involved in false religions based on alternative man made or demonic perspectives by looking at the GROSS errors emanating from Roman Catholicism for example and the absolute futility of ecumenical unity for the truly born again, bible believing christian humbly submitted to the will of God and being empowered by the Holy Spirit to apply the Truth of the Word of God to our lives on a daily basis.
The fundamental problem confronting the average Roman Catholic is the fact that they are almost completely unaware of what the Catholic Bible really teaches. Many sincere Catholics, including laymen and parish priests alike, have never had sufficient cause to question the teachings of their church because they have never been adequately instructed in the Scriptural truths which challenge the principle doctrines of Catholicism.
The tragic reality is that the overwhelming majority of Catholics have either never personally studied the Bible, or have only done so under the strict supervision and scrutiny of their church. Many have not been exposed to the clear, simple truths of the Bible because they have been repeatedly warned to rely on the official interpretations, opinions, and traditions of the church.
Even though Catholic versions of the Bible (Jerusalem Bible, New American, and Challoner-Rheims Version of the Latin Vulgate) encourage Bible reading and study (Deut. 6:7-9; Ps. 119:9-11; Acts 17:11), the tragic historical fact is that Catholicism, with very few exceptions, has repeatedly discouraged Bible reading and study, and even banned or restricted its use, distribution, and possession.
THE BIBLE AND ROMAN CATHOLICISM
The Roman Catholic Church has traditionally suppressed, opposed, and forbidden the open use of the Bible. It was first officially forbidden to the people and placed on the index of Forbidden Books List by the Council of Valencia in 1229 A.D. The Council of Trent (1545-63 A.D.) also prohibited its use and pronounced a curse upon anyone who would dare oppose this decree. Many popes have issued decrees forbidding Bible reading in the common language of the people, condemning Bible societies and banning its possession and translation under penalty of mortal sin and death. The Roman Catholic Church has openly burned Bibles and those who translated it or promoted its study, reading, and use (John Hus, 1415 A.D.; William Tyndale, 1536 A.D.)
Though external pressures have caused Rome to relax its restrictions and opposition against Bible reading in America, the Bible is still widely withheld and its distribution and free use discouraged in many countries which are heavily influenced by Roman Catholicism.
My daughter has been informed by lecturers at a Roman Catholic University that the Bible is merely a book of myths and legends subject to the teachings of the church.
This is another classic example of the “anointed” ones usurping the role of the Holy Spirit in a persons life by insisting that they and not the Bible are the source of the revealed Word of God.
Usurping the role of the Bible as the sole basis of faith and morals for instruction in how to live a life that is pleasing to God is, I believe, the unpardonable sin. The truly born again, bible believing christian has the Holy Spirit to assist with the application of that truth to their lives and is clearly able to do so effectively if they are prepared to humbly submit to it. POPERY IS AN ABOMINATION!
A RELIGIOUS SYSTEM OF BIBLICAL DISTORTIONS
Roman Catholicism is a system which is comprised of a mixture of truth and error. On the surface, it appears to many to be a brand of Christianity because it staunchly claims to embrace and defend the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. However, a closer examination proves that it is a system which actually nullifies and distorts Scriptural truth by adding erroneous, man-made teachings which openly contradict the Catholic and non-Catholic Bibles.
For example, the Roman Catholic Church claims the inspiration of the Scriptures, but dilutes the Word of God by exalting the authority of its own traditions, councils, and decrees above the Bible. Catholicism teaches the deity of Christ, but places Mary and priests as mediators between God and believers so that free access to Jesus is only possible through them. It teaches the forgiveness of sin, but only through confession to a priest and the absolution given by him. Catholicism teaches salvation, but substitutes a system of grace plus works in which human works are more important. It teaches that Christ established the Church, but exalts a man (the pope) as its head and invests absolute, infallible authority in him and his official decrees. WHAT NONSENSE IS THIS????
THE GRADUAL DEVELOPMENT OF ROMAN CATHOLIC ERRORS
Before we compare the fundamental teachings of Roman Catholicism with the Catholic Bible, it should be pointed out that the distinctive features of Catholicism originated several hundred years after the early church. Though the Catholic Church argues that its roots can be traced to Christ, the historical facts do not substantiate this claim. Roman Catholic dogma has gradually evolved over the centuries. However, none of its major traditions and doctrines were taught, defended, practiced, or embraced by the apostolic church. The following list will indicate the approximate date when the various doctrines, rituals, decrees, and beliefs were instituted:
1. Prayers for the dead. (A.D. 300)
2. Making the sign of the cross. (300)
3. Wax candles. (320)
4. Veneration of angels and dead saints, and use of images. (375)
5. The beginning of mass as a daily celebration. (394)
6. The worship and exaltation of Mary and use of term “Mother of God”(431)
7. Priests begin to dress differently from laity. (500)
8. Extreme unction. (526)
9. The doctrine of purgatory, instituted by Gregory I. (593)
10. The Latin Language used in worship and prayer Gregory I. (600)
11. Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints and angels. (600)
12. Title of “Pope” or “universal bishop” first given to Boniface III. (607)
13. Kissing the pope’s foot, began with Pope Constantine. (709)
14. Temporal power of the popes, conferred by Pepin, King of France. (750)
15. Worship of the cross, image, and relics authorized in (786).
16. Holy water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest. (850)
17. Worship of St. Joseph. (890)
18. College of Cardinals established. (927)
19. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV. (995)
20. Fastings on Fridays and during Lent. (998)
21. The mass developed as a sacrifice and attendance made mandatory. (11th Century)
22. Celibacy of the priesthood, decreed by Pope Gregory VII. (1079)
23. The rosary, used in prayer. (1090)
24. The Inquisition, instituted by the Council of Verona. (1184)
25. Sale of Indulgences. (1190)
26. Transubstantiation, proclaimed by Pope Innocent III. (1215)
27. Auricular (private) confession of sins to a priest, instituted by Pope Innocent III in Lateran Council. (1215)
28. Adoration of wafer (Host), decreed by Pope Honorius III. (1220)
29. Bible forbidden to laymen and placed on Index of Forbidden Books by Council of Valencia. (1229)
30. The Scapular, invented by Simon Stock, an English monk. (1251)
31. Cup forbidden to the people at communion by Council of Constance. (1414)
32. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma by Council of Florence. (1439)
33. The doctrine of seven sacraments affirmed. (1439)
34. The Ave Maria (Hail Mary) invented and completed 50 years later. (1508)
35. Jesuit order founded by Loyola. (1534)
36. Tradition declared to be of equal authority with the Bible by Council of Trent. (1545)
37. The Apocryphal books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent. (1546)
38. Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX. (1854)
39. Syllabus of Errors, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX and ratified by the Vatican Council; condemned freedom of religion, conscience, speech, press, and scientific discoveries which are disapproved by the Roman Church; reasserted the Pope’s temporal authority over all civil rulers. (1864)
40. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals proclaimed by the Vatican Council. (1870)
41. Public schools condemned by Pope Pius XI. (1930)
42. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death), proclaimed by Pope XII. (1950)
43. Mary proclaimed mother of the Church by Pope Paul VI. (1965)
Many other scriptural abuses and irregularities could be added to this list: Monks, nuns, monasteries, convents, forty days of Lent, holy week, Palm Sunday, Ash Wednesday, All Saints Day, Candlemas Day, fish day, meat days, incense, holy oil, holy palms, St. Christopher medals, charms, relics, novenas, and many more. This revealing list represents an overview of the many human inventions which have corrupted, distorted, and perverted the official positions presented as truth by the Roman Catholic Church.
Only faithful commitment to the CLEAR teachings of scripture will prevent those humbly submitted to the will of GOD from accepting and promulgating such false teachings as these and the myriad of other false teachings which abound.
We are on shaky ground indeed when we think we are wiser than the WORD of GOD itself or that some spirit will give us teachings which are superior to the clear teachings of the Word of God.
ONLY THE JESUS CHRIST OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US.
THE DEMONICALLY INSPIRED IMAGINATIONS OF THE HUMAN MIND WILL BE INEFFECTIVE ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY.
AS ETERNAL DAMNATION AWAITS THOSE WHO REFUSE HUMBLE SUBMISSION TO THE WORD OF GOD I AM OBLIGED TO REPEAT FOR EMPHASIS:
Only faithful commitment to the CLEAR teachings of scripture will prevent those humbly submitted to the will of GOD from accepting and promulgating the myriad of other false teachings which abound.
We are on shaky ground indeed when we think we are wiser than the WORD of GOD itself or that some spirit will give us teachings which are superior to the clear teachings of the Word of God.
ONLY THE JESUS CHRIST OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US.
THE DEMONICALLY INSPIRED IMAGINATIONS OF THE HUMAN MIND WILL BE INEFFECTIVE ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY.
Wayne,
First let me say I am impressed with you articulate and wide knowledge of the catholic church. The facts you write are not in dispute, save one or two.
It seems we have taken the evangelical false teachers off the table and instead are using the Catholic church as a better example of distorted (in some cases) and extra-biblical teaching in others. I see where you would feel that more visably serves the purpose of pointing out error.
I would also point out that it is not just “some” catholic schools that deny the literal interpretation of the Bible, but many evangelical schools as well.
Where we fall into disagreement (with no disrespect to you) are two areas.
WOF wolves are “very” different from the catholic church. They vary in degree of biblical error. The worst, say a Copeland, lowers Christ to a near human level, and raises satan to a higher level, and uses his position for great personal and institutional gain, and I believe extols a different Christ than the One True Lord of the Scripture.
A Joyce Meyers also mis-teaches the WOF basics, but is quite correct in her basic call to salvation via grace only through the saving belief that the Jesus of the Bible was the sacrificial lamb, born of a virgin, through the will of theFather and the power of the holy spirit. Her mistakes of Christs suffering for 3 day’s in hell are extra biblical, but not salvation denying.
Many good people who have been, and therefore are saved by the simple truths once delivered, are not damned by Our Lord for being tricked into thinking these new “truths” are in the bible, just rendered confused and perhaps not as effective.
In the case of Hinn, most were drawn to his ministry because they wanted to “experience” the presense of God, be healed or escape poverty, but only if it aligned with Gods Word. Many did not see and don’t see the magician twisting The Word for “New” revelation.
I know of some Hinn listeners who may make you and I look very inadequate indeed as the go out “Soul Winning”, accurately dispensing the simple basic of salvation to all they meet, not realizing the Holy Sprirt works much more love and results through their daily witness than Hinn and his whole dog and pony show.
Lastly you say: Usurping the role of the Bible as the sole basis of faith and morals for instruction in how to live a life that is pleasing to God is, I believe, the unpardonable sin. The truly born again, bible believing christian has the Holy Spirit to assist with the application of that truth to their lives and is clearly able to do so effectively if they are prepared to humbly submit to it.
That sounds like insertion of works and grace for salvation, rather than grace alone as evidenced by the fruit afterwards.
To simplify. A life that is pleasing to God because of morals and effective humility (something we all could use more of) has nothing to do with the unpardonable sin. Neither does misunderstanding small or large portions of scripture. It is the rejection of The Person of Christ and the gift of grace He offers, through His sacrifice for our sins. A child can understand the plan of salvation, thank The Lord mine have.
You focus on the DEMONIC may be being applied to a wider swath of the brethern than needed. Charles Stanley believes in eternal sercurity of the true believer, you do not, does that make his teaching DEMONIC? Of course not. If he is right and you are wrong, does that make you and your teachings DEMONIC? Of course not.
Catholics, WOF, eternal security believers, Greek Orthadox, Chinese people who have only know 10 verses and placed thier trust in Jesus for thier salvation and know little and sometimes nothing else are all saved if they believe Jesus, being God, became flesh and died for thier dins and was raised and awaits those who love and accept Him ARE NOT DEMONIC. They are sinners saved by grace with various levels of understanding.
Some sheep are led astray by wolves. The sheep remain sheep and the wolves remain wolves.
The scriptures do not teach that a Christian goes to hell. Upon death, the christian’s spirit and soul goes to heaven. Only the body goes into the grave. “Absent from the body, present with the Lord,” wrote the apostle Paul. One day, however, at the rapture, a glorified body joins the spirit and soul. Great meeting in the air is a coming, folks!
Christ did go down into hell. In the Old Testament, hell consisted of sheol and hades. Sheol was the good part and hades, the bad. People who did not look forward to the Messiah went to hades, but those who participated in the sacrificial system ritual of the husband/father bringing an animal to the priest so that blood could be shed and the priest pray for the sins of the family looked forward to the Messiah’s coming and these went to sheol upon death.
When Jesus Christ died, he went to hell, and preached to the souls there. “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but quickened by the Spirit. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.” The scriptures even teach that when he ascended on high, “he led captivity captive.” That means He took those who believed in the coming of the Messiah to heaven with him. Now, in this New Testament age, only hades is left.
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell {sheol}; neither will thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” Psalm 16:10
Only unbelievers go to hell, which actually was made for the devil and his demons.
All the more reason for us to witness, both with our life and lips.
Lucille
Dear J Byron.
The only holy, holy, holy God and Maker of the of the universe is gracious and patient with all of us sinners saved by His Grace in Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ, Who knew no sins was made to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God within Christ Jesus. I sense God’s graciousness and patience working wisdom within you. I cringe every time I read or hear a zealous Biblicist proclaiming the clear teachings of the Scriptures, much of which is still argued today. Some things that are written, obviously are not so clear even to a Biblicist. For example the Seventh Commandment says thou shall not steel. Now if the Biblicist knowing the clear teachings of Scripture takes from another person what clearly belongs to that person, even their writings and displays them as his own, then that person is a breaker of not only the seventh commandment of God but of the whole law. Everything falls apart in their witness for Christ.
Therefore we see the seriousness of the corruptible nature of sin within the flesh of man. All who name Jesus Christ need to repent and acknowledge their need for the Blood of the New Covenant which is shed for the remission of sin.
Many in the Church, let me say instead the mystical body of Jesus Christ, are looking for revival, but I say sincerely that revival of the dead in sins and trespasses, will not take place until the church, per se, humbles themselves and repents of their self righteous arrogance. From what I can see, few if any understand the power that is in the Covenant Blood of Jesus Christ. I have witnessed that the Words of Jesus Christ at His Communion table are full of the Power of His Words and full of His Father’s Grace. Hear the Truth speak, and not another who would steal away His Words with their own finite understanding.
The many, are those who have covenanted with God through their faith in Christ’s death, burial and His resurrection in power over our sin.
In the Churches that do serve Holy Communion, few in the Body wait on God. The individual is served in the ritual, and may with a right heart give thanks unto God for His mercy, but the vast majority do not grasp the significance of the whole Body coming into the Presence of the Father of Light, cleansed by the Blood of His Perfect Son. On appearances, if the traditional rite is done reverently, then are duty is done. No one waits on God. No one worships God in the beauty of holiness. How can any one person of flesh believe fully in the Truth of God’s Word, when the pulpit feeds the people of God leaven, and relies on the teaching of men with a false understanding.
When we seek God in the Spirit of His Word’s then maybe God will correct those who can hear with the Sword of His Spirit.
Any Biblicists who would cover the Words of Jesus Christ with their judgmental rants and the doctrines of men will find in the end if they do not repent, that their words will devour them in judgment.
IN the service of the Body of Jesus Christ.
Robert Glenn
Robert Glenn….2 questions….First where does the Word say their will be ANY New Revival whatsoever? I have scoured over Matt. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Thess 1&2, Cor. 2 Tim 3, The Peter letters, 1,2,3 John , and Rev. I see no evidence of ANY revival coming at all. I see an apostate church that grows worse and worse, I see mens hearts waxing colder and colder, I see an influx of Men CLAIMING to be of Jesus but leading many away, I see deception, deceptionship, deception….but no mention of any Grand New Revival…So PLEASE SHOW ME…
I do however see Acts 2: 16 when Peter CLAIMS the Joel 2:28 prophecy. Which IS still available today. In Acts 2:16 Peter claims the fulfillment of the Joel2:28 prophecy as DONE and states that These are the Last Days. Meaning the Last Days started on the Day of Pentecost. And the promises mentioned in Joel 2:26 are available today….but no NEW Revival coming….until Revelation 19:11. So maybe you can show exactly as a Biblicst where this New Revival is mentioned in the Bible…. without trying to stretch some theory that prophecy’s have 2 fulfillments….former rains and latters rains….because if that is the evidence of a New Revival then Jesus forgot to mention it. Paul forgot to mention it. Peter forgot to mention it. John the Revelator forgot to mention it…but somewhere a group of men found that it preached GREAT and roused a crowd to mention a New Revival coming….so it was created.
And 2. You speak of Communion in a very ritrualistic very Eucharistic way. I was born and raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools for 18 years and “did” Mass 6 days a week…having communion each time. I was by the Grace of God…Once having left the Catholic church….SAVED through the Blood of Christ and introduced to the true Jesus with whom I developed a personal relationship of the sort which DOES NOT TAKE PLACE IN THE Catholic church….
As far as communion Jesus simply told us “as often as you do this (communion) do it in memory of me”…which recalls the sacrifice on the cross…which gives us salvations and everlasting life. NOt to worship the ritual. That would be PAGANISM. Communion is a celebration of that sacrifice and nothing more. You do not eat the actual body of Christ into your body when you do it. Jesus came to set us free from rituals and monumental governmnetal religions that force us to cling to such rituals as requirements and evidence of salvation.
There is nothing more important than knowing God and having a relationship through Jesus Christ and this is achieved and nutured through the study and understanding of Hisd Word. Sola Scriptura.
Dear JimmyKrackKorn,
First of all Jimmy, I’m not a Biblicists. That part of the message to J Byron, commended J Byron, and spoke of another who was taken to be an authority. The spirit of the Biblicists has a tendency to take the letter of the law and kill with it, rather than see the Spirit of Grace that gives Life in Christ Jesus.
Secondly, as you know the word “revival” is not in the English translation and perhaps not in the Greek, but “revive” is.
There is a plurality in the contrite ones. The whole of the Church is sick in its sins and sin brings death. The Holy Spirit of God gives Life to all who see themselves in sin and death with no where to go, but to the God of the Living, and the Living Word.
The Roman Church in their attenuated false tradition did not serve the Blood of the Covenant for over six hundred years. Vatican II gave some leniency, and the Bishops here in the USA petitioned the pope in 2002 to be able to serve, as they say both kinds. It was granted by a papal bull in 2003, but perhaps only temporarily.
JimmyKrackKorn wrote”
I wrote:
I spoke of the churches that serve the rite, implying that for many the rite is a sufficient work, rather than the personal and collective unity that is to be at the very heart of our Communion with the Creator of Heaven and Earth. You minimize the Word of the Lord by saying”
You have a very small Jesus that you worship. The One I know, His Word brought forth the whole of Creation and everything that exist, and the substance of all things, exist because of His Word, and the substance of all things that exist consist in the multidimensional nature of the Word of God. The Word of God is not simple as you say, but we take Him at His Word by faith, for what ever is not of faith, is of sin.
Robert Glenn
It seems to me that Mr. Grady writes good articles warning people, after the fact. Charisma promotes all the questionable charismatic fads for years and then when it all collapses, they warn against it.
Will it be the same with all the teachings of the emerging church…promote, promote…oops, this isn’t right, better beware of it? True discernment will recognize the false because it does not line up with God’s Word. Thank you, Andrew Strom, for doing just that and not being afraid to name names and truly being a voice in the endtime wilderness.
Robert Glen,
First, thank you for a much needed pat on the back from a true brother, I don’t get much encouragement in my endeavors, and The Lord must’ve of knew I was in need.
Secondly, God loves the humble, with a simple faith. Rejoice in finding the very presense of God in your “just a ritual”. I am aware by all that your say, you understand the power of intimacy. Is this one of only two “rituals” Our Lord directed us to do? This is no small matter. We do not need to agree with the Catholics regarding actual bodily presence to agree with the mighty power in the “sacred” act of remembering the sacrifice and understanding that Jesus said he would be present in a special way.
Why are we at each others throat because we love and appreciate what our Lord encouraged? And are not the harvesters few and the “Fields full and ready for harvest” at all times?
Brothers, seek what is good in one another 1st, then parse with love as many here do.
Again, blessings Robert
Andrew,
Must you delete all my recent comments?
Since when did free speech become a “sin” on here? I’ve not insulted anyone.Merely voiced my opinion just as others have.
Does every comment have to regulated for it to be “acceptable” to publish?
Robert Glen- that revival of the dead in sins and trespasses, will not take place until the church, per se, humbles themselves and repents of their self righteous arrogance.
Again you skirted the issue by saying please don’t take my words as meaning what I am trying to say…..or something equally as confusing.
There will be no revival…of a church….your assumption that a church whatever that means… I don’t know…the only TRUE CHURCH (The Bride of Christ..and they are here today) is constantly humbling themselves and repenting…if you are looking for some corporate body or huge denomination to perform some RITUAL of repentenace and humbling….that is not mentioned in the Bible in the Prophetic end times. The church gets worse and worse….so whatever you may believe Revival to mean…most those associated with RIVIVAL SCHOOL have a certain group definition of what revival means…but whatever it is …it will never occur because no huge so-called corporate body will ever humble themselves or repent as say they did in 2 Chron. 20 or in Ninevah after Jonah finally made shore…and in each instance EVERY MAN WOMAN and CHILD (and animal in Ninevahs sake) repented and humbled themselves before God and the 2 Chron 7:14 prayer was answered. THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN IN AMERICA OR ANYWHERE ELSE. SO Yeah there will be no revival.
Robert Glen wrote-
You have a very small Jesus that you worship—
Is this the kind of arrogance you are talking about repenting for?
Here’s a few scriptures to meditate on.
Matthew 15:12-14
“Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
It’s wisdom to heed the word’s of Jesus and allow the Father to uproot those He has not planted and leave the blind leaders alone.
On the subject of communion, I do so agree that it is a powerful thing and much more than a ritual – here is a wonderful gem of insight the Lord was gracious to open my eyes to a while ago, if I may share it:
“Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar?” 1 Cor. 10:16-18
When the Israelites made a sacrifice in the temple, in order that the sacrifice be applied to the one making the offering, they had to eat of it, or the priest would eat of it on their behalf. When we eat and drink the body and blood of our Lord, we are likewise applying His sacrifice to our lives – by PROXY (not through transubstantiation as Catholicism teaches), through the bread and wine. When Jesus said to do this in RE-membrance of Him, it was more than just a memorial for memory’s sake, He was leaving us a way of refreshing or reapplying, so to speak, His sacrifice. He ever lives to intercede for us, His sacrifice is perpetual for all time, His blood forever in perpetuity cries mercy. When we first came to Jesus we weren’t aware of all our sins to be able to repent of them all, except perhaps in a general sense, but He is gracious to reveal and help us rid ourselves of them as we walk with Him, and this is where the Lord’s supper is very effective and powerful.
We know there is power in the communion table because those who eat and drink unworthily are in danger of becoming weak and sick or ‘falling asleep’. This equates to when the Ark of the Covenant was mis-handled by handling it with sinful flesh (bare hands) rather than properly with the wooden (*cross*) poles, or if there was sin amongst those in possession of it, it would bring death and cursing. Communion likewise has power to either bring blessing, or the opposite if it is mishandled, that is if there is unrepentant sin in the life of the one partaking of it. We cannot partake of the Lord’s table and the table of demons at the same time, the table of demons will cancel out the Lord’s supper – we cannot serve two masters. (see whole chapters 1 Cor. 10 and 11).
1Cr 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
1Cr 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
1Cr 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
1Cr 11:26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
1Cr 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
1Cr 11:28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.
1Cr 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1Cr 11:30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
1Cr 11:31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.
Praise you Lord of heaven and earth that you gave your beloved only Son.. oh Lord, help us to grasp and appreciate the cost that you paid because of our sin so that we could be cleansed and freed of condemnation, forgive us Lord if ever we have taken this lightly.. Thank you Jesus for the communion table so that we can judge ourselves and repent whenever by your grace we become aware of sin and be cleansed and restored through your body and blood as often as need be..
Robert Glen wrote-
Dear Jimmy,
Actually, I did and do repent. Forgive me. Communication can be very difficult, especially when you are trying to make a point. I noticed among other things I used the word “are” when it should have been “our”.
My wife and I went out shopping and I had thought about what I had said on that matter, and was condemned in how it was communicated. My intention was to show how little we regard the words of Jesus Christ as if the only Constant of the universe, can not keep His covenant Word, in Spirit, Power and absolute Truth. I am sorry that I made it personal. I reprimanded a fellow brother for the same thing I did to you. Perhaps the following would have been much better.
Robert Glenn wrote:
Thank you J Byron. I appreciate your response, however I am not sure that you fully appreciate my position.
I consider popery in whatever form it presents itself to be the unpardonable sin.
I am also very much aware of the false teachings among the people you have referred to and abhor the way they are manipulating simple people.
I have, in fact, presented many of their false teachings, ad nauseam, on these various sites in a “DESPERATE” attempt to save some.
I have referred to the errors in the Roman Catholic church simply to highlight the willingness some people have to accept any teachings so long as they are able to give it a “christian” package.
However, I believe that these people are ALL accountable for themselves individually. As the saying goes, “if you fly with the crows, you get shot as a crow.” Those people who have allowed themselves to be deceived by these wolves, of whatever variety, are a part of what the bible refers to as the great falling away.
They are going to hell with the wolves because they have chosen to abandon the TRUTH of the Word of God in favour of teachings which their “itching ears” find more appealing. The choices we make determine our eternal destiny.
Proverbs 1:20-30
(20) Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
(21) She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:
(22) ” How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
(23) Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
(24) Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
(25) Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,
(26) I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your terror comes,
(27) When your terror comes like a storm,
And your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
(28) ” Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
(29) Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
(30) They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.
Fearing God is a choice. Each and every day of our lives, we are faced with many pressures, forces, and influences that compel us to react. We must make a choice: “Shall I go this way, or shall I go that way?” One way represents the fear of God; the other way represents the fear of men, the fear of the loss of pleasure, the fear of the loss of some other physical, social, or cultural “need” that we do not want to lose.
Notice the verbs in this series of verses: “hated,” “did not choose,” “would have none,” “despised”! Is it any wonder that Romans 8:7 says that the carnal mind is enmity against God? We begin to understand that it was the fear of God, given as the gift of God, that drove us to react, drove us in the direction of the very One who holds in His hands the issues of life! God instilled that reaction within us!
There is an antagonism toward wisdom—toward God. Wisdom is not hiding. People have access to common wisdom, which is described as being right out there on the street—out in public. It is in the forest; it is in the city; it is on the job—it is everywhere! We are surrounded by it! This is why God can make the accusation that the Gentiles who do not have the law are a law unto themselves when they do what the law says is right (Romans 2:14). Their own conscience bears them witness that they understand what is right and what is wrong (verse 15)!
Proverbs 1 shows that God (personified as Wisdom) uses just about every device imaginable to awaken people to what is right, so that they will fear evil. We see Wisdom threatening, laughing, and warning, like a dog baring its teeth. If a snarling pit bull braced to attack every time we were about to sin, we would fear, would we not? Our skin would crawl, our hair would stand on end, and we would be almost spitless!
God has not chosen to warn us in that way, but He does warn us through His Word. He also warns us through the fruit of sin, which we see in this world as well as in our own lives. It is almost as if Wisdom is saying, “I told you so, but you would not listen!”
Dear Wayne,
Sermon: The Fear of God by John W. Ritenbaugh Given 08-Feb-92
Robert let me just say this: (first apology accepted by its no big deal. I know the Christ I serve and NO ONE can shake that from me….don’t feel convicted….I assume we all brothers here) But when you talk about communion as ALL encompassing in union with Christ and then refer to those who study and put faith in the Bible as ‘biblicist’ which sounds a little deragatory…it sounds exactly like a Catholic. I am not saying that about you….you said you were once Catholic as was I…and although I enjoy communion I don’t want to place the false beliefs that Perry Stone places on it….such that it is The Meal that Heals and so you can purchase a communion kit for $30 and my book for $30 and start your way to recovery through communion. Me and my wife buy matza bread and grape juice and do it that way. Sometimes I like to read John 6 Jesus The Bread of Life before we partake of the elements.
The Catholics believe that the life blood of the Christian is in the Eucharist…Dave Hunt speaks very well on this subject in A Woman Rides the Beast.
and LIFE revolves around the Eucharist….Although they believe in transubstantiation…the act of sharing in communion can become ritualistic within the protestant church especially Charismatic and Pentecostals. It would not be the first thing ritualized in the protestant church.
I actually have communion everyday.
So that is all I question…. when someone writing in a post about Benny Hinn writes that unless we realize the importance of Communion, and then refers to Bible students as “Biblicists” it just comes off sounding very Catholic to me…as I mentioned I came from DEEP ROOTED CATHOLICISM (painfully deep rooted and I’ll leave it at that) still most of my family is firmly entrenched.
Wayne,
You know your stuff! You have a broad knowledge and are not twisting scriptures at all. However, I have a challange to some of your interpritations.
I get the feeling that “The great falling away” in your mind includes all who have doctrinal error. If someone in deceived into thinking they can call upon God to “Keep a Promise” He never made, then they are receivers of ear tickling (that means you assume they have impure hearts) and are bound for hell with the wolves who know better, That’s a harsh judgement on your part, and I would remind you we that seek to teach will be judged in accordance with a more severe judgement, possibly using the rod we have judged others with.
Let’s say (for demonstration purposes only) that your position of proper decernment or damnation amoung those once saved is considered by God to be a form of “works rather than grace” salvation, liken unto the Pharasees you have mentioned. Is that mistake “yet another” unpardonable sin? When Our Lord Discussed the unpardonable sin, He spoke of “a single” act (which I believe to be rejection of Him and His atonement), yet you have many such acts, or really just one, not believing as you believe.
Wayne, I am in agreement with you on the WOF movement, except you seem much more adept at reading the hearts of the “once” saints being decieved.
Let us be focused and sure. By your measure, John Haggee and all who he shepards are on thier way to hell. Which docrinal mistake breaks the salvation covering they once enjoyed.
If that is a minister not bad enough to cause the sheep to be lost, let’s pick another.
If they say Jesus went to hell for 3 days and the flock believe the way he twist scripture, are they throwing out the Jesus that saved them and unknowingly selecting another? It would need to be intentional for them to lose their salvation?
I’ll stop at that point. Don’t be offended brother, be challanged.
I hear your heart Robert (“Robert Glenn”) and I hear your heart too “watchful” and I believe that the truth you are both discussing regarding “the cup of the Lord” and the “table of the Lord” is vital for our understanding…
I don’t have a corner on the truth here but it’s something that the Lord has been putting on my heart recently in regard to keeping “the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Eph 4:3 NASB)…
“Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.” (1 Cor 5:7 NASB)
The Israelites believed Moses and applied the blood of the Passover lamb to their lintels and door posts as a sign of their faith in the Lord that “he would pass over” them…
“For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.” (Exodus 12:12-13 KJV)
Those of us who have had the Blood of Jesus applied to us are brought face to face again with the sacrifice of Jesus when we approach “the cup of the Lord” and “the table of the Lord” and there is something significant in the scripture which “watchful” shared, “Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.” (1 Cor 10:17 NIV), this is where our unity lies…
We, the Church of Jesus Christ, the Church of the Living God, which He, God, purchased with His own Blood – “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28 KJV) – the Blood of God has purchased the Church – Hallelujah!!! – He has purchased us with His own Blood – Hallelujah!!! – and in fellowship with all our brothers and sisters in the Lord all over the world, “the Blood of Jesus God’s Son purifies us from all sin”…
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7 KJV)
Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God, they are the Godhead…
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” (Col 2:9-15 KJV)
Jesus is the Victor, Jesus is the Conqueror, Jesus is the Name that is above every name, He is the Saviour of everyone who believes and He is God…
Worship Him, worship Him, worship Him…
For us who believe in the Name of Jesus not to forgive our brothers and sisters when they sin against us is to deny the work of Christ on the cross and to deny his forgiveness of our sins, this is why the Lord teaches us to pray, “and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matt 6:12 NASB) and is also not to discern the Lord’s body…
“For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.” (1 Cor 11:29 KJV)
Practical atheism – someone has used those words before in another quote – but I would like to make this quote, “Unforgiveness in the life of a believer is practical atheism”, whether the unforgiveness is towards ourselves or towards our brothers and sisters, “Love thy neighbour as thyself”, it is practical atheism…
We must examine ourselves in the light of God’s truth and ask ourselves – ask the Holy Spirit within us – to reveal to us any unforgiveness in our lives and as He removes this from us we will be able to have fellowship with Him and with His children – we are not to “witch hunt” inside ourselves but to surrender this to the Holy Spirit for Him to lead us into all truth…
I am sure there are other brothers and sisters who can add to this the revelation which the Lord has given them on this subject…
Dear Watchful,
I for one enjoyed the spirit of your post and gleaned from the richness of your heart.
Thank you
Your brother in the Lord Jesus Christ.
My first observation is that God alowed this all this to happen and we know that in all things God works for good to those who love Him, who are the called according to His purposes.(Romans 8:28) Therefore we should praise and thank God for His goodness.Have you got egg on your face? If so, you will be better able to recognise deception next time.I am not defending the wrongdoers, but remember they were/are deceived as well.I have long lamanted the lack of discernment in the Church: in myself as well. I have pondered things.wondered, looked at others and wondered what they thought, discussed with some and been told not to judge and searched my own soul in order to find the truth.Of course, that is what God wants.
We have to grow up and ‘iron sharpens iron’.People use God’s word like a club sometimes and can be very cruel. We need to toughen up. We need to really know the truth and stand by that;not arrogantly but firmly.The Lord once said to me ‘If there be a hundred of you and 99 say one thing and you think another, you must not go with the 99.’ It could seem arrogant to go against such odds but people are easily led and some are very persuasive. Others follow the majority.Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. We must learn to look to Him always and not fear what p[eople may think or say. What is not of faith is sin. Don’t waste time throwing mud at those who are in error. Make sure of your own understanding first , then warn, correct or whatever is appropriate.
It is appropriate at this time to name names, to be specific, because people are such followers, and you do not want to besmirch innocent ministries by spraying around mud indiscriminately. We are, I believe, heading for a ‘showdown” in the church.People have to make a choice as to what they believe. God is going to purify His people, but remember it is not flesh and blood we wrestle against, so do’t make it personal. I am sure that we have all been on the wrong side often enough in our understanding .
It is not just the ‘big names’ that we should look at. Look to your local churches or other Christian groups because that is where God has placed you and where you have a greater responsibilty. For example: I once was a participant in a regular prayer group comprised of leaders of several mens ministries and others. I tried to raise as a prayer concern the deception which was going own in the churches and told of what was happening in my own church, without naming names,as a specific example. I was told we’ must not touch the Lords anointed ‘ (Was I not one of the Lord’s anointed also?) and that it was ‘not an apprpriate forum’ in which to raise the matter .Not appropriate? A prayer group? I was silenced! I did some serious soul searching before the Lord. I realised that these men were all members of churches and were dependent on the goodwill of the pastors of the local churches to plug their meetings and encourage their own men to attend. Looked up to by most of the countries Christians I found them seriously wanting and realised how much more widespread was the problem we face. Growing up can be hard but we cannot remain as children.
you pick a bad example in John Hagee.John says Jesus never revealed himself as the Messiah to the Jews.So John teaches that the Jews can still approach the Lord our God by way of animal sacrifices(he teaches a dual covenant)Gentiles- by way of the cross and the sacrifice of Jesus.Jews- by way of an animal blood sacrifice.
Amen Harvey (“Harvey Rosieur”) as I read your post a scripture came back to my mind:
“The two of them, sent on their way by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia and sailed from there to Cyprus.
When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the Jewish synagogues. John was with them as their helper.
They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus,
who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God.
But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith.
Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said,
“You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?
Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun.”
Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand.
When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.” (Acts 13:4-12 NIV)
There is a time coming where those who are filled with the Spirit of God and with His Holy Fire will speak in His presence, they will not see the presence of men but they will see the presence of Almighty God and when they view themselves as being in the presence of Almighty God and not men great boldness will come upon them and they will speak the truth of God with great boldness and power with no concern for their own lives or their futures or their ministries or anything else…
They will have one desire and one desire only to glorify the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ and to forsake everything for His glory…
Nothing will stop these believers not even death because God will raise up other believers to take their place with the holy passion of Almighty God to declare His truth to a dying world…
We are in those days…
JByron Thank you for your comments. As in the days of Noah ignorance of the TRUTH IS taking most people to HELL.
I am able to tolerate different biblical perspectives such as may exist between different protestant denominations when Bible teaching and preaching was prominent,
What is damnable, however, is the notion by many people that the BIBLE is somehow preventing the free flow of the Spirit of God and that being led by the Spirit requires abandonment of the Faith once delivered to follow the new teachings of these self appointed gurus. This is the same delusion which Satan used to ensnare Adam and Eve. There is NO new revelation NO new paradigm just the SAME OLD RUGGED CROSS OF JESUS CHRIST REPENTANCE AND FORGIVENESS/OBEDIENCE TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE BIBLE AND EMPOWERMENT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DO SO. THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL NEVER CONTRADICT THE WORD OF GOD. Any spirit which does so is satanic in origin.
The false church is paving the way for the naive to accept the Anti-Christ wholeheartedly by teaching that their “anointed” leaders have super or extra biblical revelation. Much of the nonsense being taught today is actually unbiblical or anti-biblical with people daring to suggest that the Holy Spirit is responsible for leading them into the NONSENSE which includes the spiritual filth being represented in the books and videos of Andrew Strom and others.
FAITHFUL COMMITMENT to The clear teaching of the Bible is the ONLY way to avoid this delusion which God HIMSELF has sent to those who DO NOT love the TRUTH.
“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling
away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV)
In 1948 a movement was born that has become the foundation of the great apostasy that the Apostle
Paul warned us would come prior to the return of our Lord. Known as the New Order of the Latter Rain or
just the Latter Rain Movement its influence has steadily grown within the Pentecostal and Charismatic
Churches since 1948. Today, through the influence of various “revivals” its leaven is spreading even further
into the Evangelical world.
An apostasy or “falling away” is essentially a rebellion of God’s people against His Word. It would
be within the Latter Rain “revival” which broke out in North Battleford, Saskatchewan, in 1948 that the last
great rebellion against the word of God would be birthed. It is my belief that this movement has ushered in
the very apostasy that the Apostle Paul warned would come.
Rebelling against the New Testament picture of the Church in the last days as a despised remnant of
the faithful holding on until the rapture, they began to develop a heretical doctrine of a triumphant Church –
conquering the world and bringing in the kingdom of Christ. The first time the Church adopted such a
theology it resulted in the development of Roman Catholicism and ushered in the Dark Ages. This time the
result will be much the same but of a much shorter duration. It will produce the one-world ecumenical
church, “The Great Harlot” that will triumph for a short time under Anti-Christ – “Drunken with the blood of
the saints and martyrs of Jesus.”
It came to be taught that the “Latter Rain” revival of 1948 was to be the first in a series of
“restorational moves of God” that would restore to the Church all of the truths that Satan had “robbed” her
of. The five-fold ministries of apostles and prophets would also be restored to the church. These restored
“apostles” and “prophets” would lead the Church into “present truth” and the “last great moves of God.”
Eventually when the Church was mature enough the “rapture” would occur. But the rapture of the Latter
Rain would be a much different rapture than the Church had ever taught before. It would be a “spiritual”
coming of Christ into His Church, His “corporate body.” A “corporate anointing.” The saints would be
“glorified”, even “deified” – right here on this earth. This overcoming army of saints believes it will go
forth conquering and triumphing over all of it’s enemies in the Great Tribulation. When they are done Christ
will be “released from the heavens”, to come and take control of the kingdom they have established.
This doctrine is known as the “Manifest Sons of God” or “Sonship” and has spread throughout the
Evangelical Church through the Charismatic and Kingdom/Dominion Movements. The Latter Rain
“revivals” that are occurring in Toronto, Pensecola, and various other places are popularizing and spreading
this heresy at an alarming rate. It is known popularly today as “Joel’s Army”. Thousands of Christians are
coming into a strong delusion because they did not receive the love of the truth. While they may have
received the truth, they did not have a love for it and have therefore fallen away from it. They are trading
their blessed hope for an earthly delusion.
JimmieKrackKorn : I have just read your contribution and am interested in your concluding words ‘Sola Sciptura’ I am not sure what you mean, but you are the second person I have questioned about using the phrase. Are you a cessationist? (Do you believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit died with the early Apostles because we do not need them today – we have the Bible instead?) The phrase itself is not in scripture . I believe it is attributed to someone from reformation times – perhaps Martin Luthert. Whoever it was , is he/she to be quoted like the scriptures themselves?
You do not believe in revival (call it what you will) because you do not see it in scripture. It may be that you do not choose to see it in scripture.(I do not have a particular passage in mind but there are many passages still not clear to me as to their full final application.
However, the gift of prophecy is given us along with other gifts (1 Cor 12) to use today when we are baptised in the Holy Spirit because they are needed, in addition to scripture.
It is therefore of importance when someone imparts a message from God to listen and to judge the word they give (not to despise it) to determine whether it is truly from God and accurately related. The Bible itself does not cover ever event,It gives us an outline of what is to take place, among other things, and helps equip us to deal with those events and every aspect of our lives. Without the help of the Holy Spirit,reading the Bible would be like reading someone elses mail. Pointless. Similarly to ignore the Gifts which He gives to us we are not properly equipped to deal with life. If you allow that He can give us prophecy and you must) you cannot seriously suggest that we should ignore it because we cannot see it in scripture. I am all for revival because God has told me it is coming. I call it revival because I do not know how to more adequately describe what is coming. If you are able to hear God’s voice (and you should be able to because He says “My sheep hear my voice” ask Him to reveal the truth or otherwise of what I am saying.
If you are a cessationist, forget it because you will not hear and do not believe correctly what the Bible says anyway.
Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, “by scripture alone”) is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness and is absolutely essential for the TRULY born again christian lead by the Holy Spirit.
A belief in sola acriptura does not imply a cessationist viewpoint but it does enable one to discern whether a spiritual leading is from the Holy Spirit or a demonic spirit.
The Holy Spirit will ALWAYS CONFIRM NEVER CONTRADICT THE BIBLE.
Any spirit which leads one away from the clear teaching of the BIBLE or in any way provides unbiblical, antibiblical or extrabiblical leadings is satanic in origin.
The false church is paving the way for the naive to accept the Anti-Christ wholeheartedly by teaching that their “anointed” leaders have super or extra biblical revelation. Much of the nonsense being taught today is actually unbiblical or anti-biblical with people daring to suggest that the Holy Spirit HIMSELF is responsible for leading them into the NONSENSE which includes the spiritual filth being represented in the books and videos of Andrew Strom and others.
FAITHFUL COMMITMENT to The clear teaching of the Bible is the ONLY way to avoid this delusion which God HIMSELF has sent to those who DO NOT love the TRUTH.
“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling
away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV)
“But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.
When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”" (Matt 28:16-20 NASB)
“Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen.
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
“These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.” (Mar 16:14-20 NASB)
“Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
“You are witnesses of these things.
“And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them.
While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven.
And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
and were continually in the temple praising God.” (Luk 24:44-53 NASB)
“He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” (Acts 1:7-8 NASB)
“When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
“And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
“Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
Cretans and Arabs–we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”
And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?”
But others were mocking and saying, “They are full of sweet wine.”
But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
“For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
‘AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
‘THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’
“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know–
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
“But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
“For David says of Him,
‘I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE;
FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
‘THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED;
MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES,
NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
‘YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE;
YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.’
“Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
“And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
“This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
“For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”‘
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!”
So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.
And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
praising God and having favor with all the people And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.” (Acts 2 NASB)
The question has been asked in this thread, “Where is revival mentioned in scripture?” or words to that effect…
Well, take a look at the scriptures I’ve shared above and you’ll see revival in the scriptures…
If you’re really interested in the subject of revival I suggest that you begin by undertaking an internet search on George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, Asahel Nettleton, George Muller, Rees Howells, Smith Wigglesworth and Duncan Campbell and search out their writings and their testimonies and what’s been written about what the Lord did through them and if you do this I believe that you’ll find that what happened on the day of Pentecost was not an isolated event – not a “one-off” – in fact I’d go so far as to say that if you undertake an indepth search of these men’s lives and what the Holy Spirit accomplished through them and come to the conclusion that the day of Pentecost was a “one-off” event, that you are spiritually blind…
Another book which you can read if you’re genuinely interested in finding out about revival is “REVIVAL” by Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones (which can be purchased at the following link: http://www.crossway.org/product/0891074155)…
This website is for “Revival, Repentance, Reformation” – if there are posters on this website who only believe in “Repentance” but do not believe in “Revival” or “Reformation” but are actually staunchly resistant to both “Revival” and “Reformation” in their hearts, might I ask you – if you are one of these posters – in all sincerity before the Lord, is this really the place for you to post your comments?
“LORD, I have heard of your fame; I stand in awe of your deeds, O LORD. Renew them in our day, in our time make them known; in wrath remember mercy.” (Habakkuk 3:2 NIV)
“LORD, I have heard the report about You and I fear. O LORD, revive Your work in the midst of the years, In the midst of the years make it known; In wrath remember mercy.” (Habakkuk 3:2 NASB)
“O LORD, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O LORD, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.” (Habakkuk 3:2 KJV)
For those of you who are using other people’s quotations or study notes you need to say so in your post. Otherwise it is called “plagiarism”. Please quote your source.
thanks,
Sarah
Romans 8:7
At the core of our entire Christian walk is government—not the government of a nation but the issue of whom we will allow to govern us. For example, either we can govern ourselves by “deciding” when it is permissible to kill, or we can submit to God’s benevolent authority and His explanation of morality. In the final analysis, we are not allowed to determine what is right and wrong—God has already done this. Our only decision is if we will act in accordance with God’s law!
What we decide demonstrates what we hold in the higher regard, that is, what we worship. For example, if we hold our opinions or “leadings” as superior to the clear teachings of the Word of God or deny its importance in our lives, we are choosing the self over God. Likewise, if we intentionally—take another man’s life in defense of our own, we are worshipping the self rather than God.
Romans 8:7 describes this power struggle perfectly.
Human nature puts its own cares and interests above God, and the result is that the carnal man will not submit himself to God’s clear commands. The carnal man will be willing to harm, even kill, another created human being to protect his own interests, in spite of God’s law and Jesus Christ’s striking example to the contrary men continue to exalt themselves above the revealed Will of God.
The ONLY way to truly KNOW CHRIST is through HIS WORD.
Only the biblical Jesus Christ is able to say, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” – Jn 14:6
False Christ’s on the other hand lead to the false salvation being “marketed” in many apostate churches today.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Without the TRUTH of the Word of God we have NO way of knowing whether the Christ we claim to know is the Jesus Christ of the BIBLE or one of the MANY false Christ’s the BIBLE warns us about repeatedly.
When we know the scriptures, and understand them through the power of God’s Holy Spirit, we won’t be deceived about the salvational points of His Word.
The Gnostic heretics of the first century gained many converts. So did the later Arian heretics. Did these “revivals”
make their rising up within the midst of the church “moves of God”? No! The Holy Spirit is still the
Spirit of truth. Until our Lord returns, and we rise up to meet Him in the clouds at the rapture – let us
remember His admonition to the faithful Philadelphian Church:
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall
come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast
what you have, that no one may take your crown.” (Rev 3:10,11 NKJV)
Remember – “He who endures to the end shall be saved.”
“Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.”
Act 3:19 “Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord…”
In the New Testament we are promised “times of refreshing” wherein Pentecost, our first love, is re-freshed to the church – repentance is key. When Peter spoke these words he was talking to the Jewish people at the temple gate in Jerusalem – God’s people in other words.
(Which reminds me, I think we can expect that there are a lot of similarities between Israel at the time of Jesus’ first appearing, and the church at the time of His second coming, and we can learn a lot about the end times by looking at those circumstances and condition of Israel at that time.. these things were written as examples to the church…Ecc 1:9 “What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.”)
Just want to say, may the Lord bless my siblings here, sometimes your words are like a cup of water that refreshes and encourages, or like drops of oil that soothe like a balm when it is so needed!
It is obvious now that 1948 was a time of refreshing and not the latter rain.1948 was more like the morning of the second day.Hosea clearly speaks of the former and latter rain doctrine and the latter rain coming on the morning of the third day.Every time of refreshing gets highjacked every revival gets gets highjacked and perverted by man’s irresistible drive to control and harness what God is doing and latter rain teaching is no different.Some teaching of the latter rain that has crept in is a lie.As I said every revival gets perverted and distorted.Every revival comes as a result of God’s people crying out in repentance and after a time it gets taken over by ministers of Satan disguised as angels of light and righteousnes.The time of the latter RAIN not reign in the physical since is upon us.There are a lot of people making the mistake that the jews made.They think that they are going to take control of this world literally.and present it to Jesus when he returns.NOT!
For those who have said the Lord’s Supper is important – and much more than “symbolic” – I agree with you. (Wrote an article on this awhile back).
Good stuff, guys. (These things must be fully restored to the church.)
God bless you all.
-Andrew.
I would like to submit this thought to Wayne.The anti-christ is not one man coming on the scene as presented in the Left Behind books.Those books by the way are in the FICTION section at the book stores.The Apostle John said you heard anit-christ cometh already are there many ant-christ.The spirit has been here all along,to be manifest in many people especially in the last days.The falling away is a defection from the truth and you can do that without even leaving the assembly.The man of sin,son of perdition is a very large company of people.While people are looking for a man to come on the scene the spirit is already here.The anti-christ can often mean in the place of the real Christ.
I’ve also noticed this ‘untouchable’ spirit in every-day pastors and the hierarchies that surround them; it seems to extend a long way down the food chain. To deal with criticism the first weapon they turn to is “judge not”, then “touch not the Lord’s anointed”, then “your being legalistic” – I’m sure there are many other tactics to exercise control, take offence and be defensive. What struck me though was the change in my pastor after he came back from a trip to America (I live in the UK). Many of these pastors drink from the same well, whether it be the books and videos or pastor conferences. They all seems to want to know the secret of success of growing a bigger church, the mega-church way. My old pastor clinched it when he said it was a “numbers game”. I heard the Lord say, “do not be concerned with the numbers of men but rather give ear to the words of God!”
Lester Brown…….Thank you for that word. So true, so true.
Wayne….I have not heard anyone here or on any of the other articles state that the bible is no longer pertinent.
What I have heard, and written myself, is that the bible needs to be in the priority ordained by God, and the understanding of the bible to be illumined by God’s Spirit.
(which you have stated above in the following quote:
Wayne said:
“When we know the scriptures, and understand them through the power of God’s Holy Spirit, we won’t be deceived about the salvational points of His Word.”
I certainly have not thrown the bible out with the bathwater, as you can tell by the amount of times scripture is quoted in my comments. And I see the same for many other writers here.
I suggest that you remove the bible from the throne and put the King of Kings in His rightful place.
IT IS THE LIVING GOD WHO SAVES US.
IT IS THE LIVING GOD WHO KEEPS US.
IT IS THE LIVING GOD WHO TRANSFORMS US.
IT IS THE LIVING GOD WHO IS SOVEREIGN.
AND HE CAN USE WHATEVER INSTRUMENT HE WANTS TO ACCOMPLISH HIS WILL AND PLAN.
I have to say a big Amen! “Happy Trails” to your comments above which I re-post below… :-)
“IT IS THE LIVING GOD WHO SAVES US.
IT IS THE LIVING GOD WHO KEEPS US.
IT IS THE LIVING GOD WHO TRANSFORMS US.
IT IS THE LIVING GOD WHO IS SOVEREIGN.
AND HE CAN USE WHATEVER INSTRUMENT HE WANTS TO ACCOMPLISH HIS WILL AND PLAN.” (“Happy Trails”)
Praise God for the scriptures but praise God for Himself who wrote the scriptures and makes them real in our lives through the power of His Holy Spirit… O Praise His Holy Name…
2 Timothy 1:7
(7) For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
The Holy Spirit is described generally as the power of God, which is certainly correct, but power comes in a number of forms. There is a flowing power caused by the movement of an object. Thus God uses water to illustrate an aspect of the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39). There is healing and nourishing power, so God uses oil to symbolize His Spirit. Words, symbols we use to represent ideas, the raw material of our thoughts, have awesome power to influence. Thus God says through Jesus that His words “are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63).
Words give us the power to communicate ideas from one mind to another or to many minds. They carry the power to instruct, encourage, discourage, mollify, anger, vilify, inspire, exhilarate, create, or destroy. They can make a person change his mind, motivate him to stop or move, do, undo, or redo. The power of words is almost limitless.
If we examine the fruit of the Spirit, we find that they all have something to do with our minds. Words are a large portion of the mind’s working material and therefore play a huge role in what the person produces with his life.
It is no coincidence that Jesus is the Word of God, and the Bible, the written revelation of God and His purpose, is also the Word of God! God is trying to tell us something. He is concerned about our minds because what goes into them will determine what we produce with our lives. Will it be fruit leading to eternal life or fruit leading to death?
Wayne and JimmieKrackKorn: ‘Sola Scriptura’ – I do know what it means (and how to spell it. I made a few blues in my last offering.) I must conclude that you are indeed ‘cessationists”. It is funny, but the last man I tackled on this question would not give me a straight answer either, although you may not like to hear that term applied to you.By it I mean simply what I said earlier. It is bad teaching and denies the very Word which you both say you hold supreme.It still holds sway in many traditional (and dead) churches.
Please understand me. I hold the Bible as inerrant. It is my guide and I trust it beyond anything else which is written. However, it is not enough to know the Book of the Lord. We must know the Lord of the Book.( I must acknowledge Rick Joyner for expressing this, whatever else I may think of his teaching).
The Bible is written so that we, the called, may know God personally, not simply by description.He wants our fellowship. He wants to speak with us and does so. We call that prophecy. We test that prophecy by making sure it accords (does not contradict) His word (logos). If it does contradict the scriptures we reject it , because it does not come from God. He does not contradict Himself. He is not a man that He should lie.I use His word (logos) to check my understanding of whatever He gives me (rhema). Many years ago He would give me a vision and then a scripture would come to mind which helped me to understand or interpret the vision.I no longer am given the scripture but my knowledge of the Bible and God’s character is sufficient for me to know the vision is in accord with His word.It is extra knowledge (not in the bible ) required for living today. It would be quite impossible for the Bible to relate every detail of every life as I am sure you will agree. God does not leave us in the dark. He expects us to grow but He is an ever-present help. We do not have to rely on blind faith and act in hope, even though we lack personal knowledge or experience to contend with situation with which we are faced . God is a wise parent. He expects us to do our best but takes over when we have exhausted our resources/knowledge.
I have a life-long friend who holds the same view as you do. We can talk about anything else and exchange advice , but he refuses to even look at the scriptures with me which would show the error of his understanding. Instead he offers to lend me a tape which says speaking in tongues is of the devil. It is demonic. That is the only time he has ever acknowledged that demons exist today. Cessationism is a vile teaching.It is ‘holding the form of religion but denying its power’. I was aghast to hear a new pastor many years ago preaching such a message in my (then) ‘local church’. Before the realisation had fully ‘hit’me as to what he was saying, the Holy Spirit asked me “What are you doing here? You do not belong here!” We left and to our surprise found another 30 –40 people left also. We formed a home church where we began to grow in the Spirit. Some who remained there would cross over the street rather than talk to usafter that. (By their fruit you shall know them ?)
It may be a forlorn hope, but would you please pray about this and read the scriptures carefully (Acts and Corinthians in particular) ttreating the words in their ordinary sense, without relying on what you have been taught by men. As the Lord taught me “..you have no need that anyone should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in Him.” (I John 2:27 R.S.V.)
You will have been taught that ‘now the perfect has come (the Bible) the imperfect will pass away (the Gifts of the Holy Spirit) By incorrectly interpreting one line, you blaspheme the Holy Spirit and render much of the New Testament as superfluous. I see this as an evil just as serious as the worst extremes of pentecostalism/ Charasmania.
You have hit the nail on the head Darren Sargeant.
Neo-pentecostalism or (false) pentecostalism for the super spiritual for whom spiritual leadings has exceeded the clear boundaries set by the Word of God (THE BIBLE) has caused the disastrous downfall in biblical christianity that we are all witnessing today.
Much of what is being referred to as the Holy Spirit today is more correctly referred to as occultic or demonic in origin. The circus does not follow the preaching of the Word of God for the purpose of confirming it BUT is indeed presented as the main course as people are deliberately dumbed down into a spiritual stupor in which they are prepared to accept even more unbiblical, antibiblical and extrabiblical drivel. All of this nonsense is preparing the way for the acceptance by the majority of those who today refer to themselves as christian of the antichrist.
Tragically when the church presents itself “sola ecclesia” as the basis of salvation, as it is doing today, regardless of what it teaches or preaches it becomes an anti-christ itself. Whilst this has been true of many “christian” churches or denominations throughout history it is today more than ever before becoming increasing applicable to mainstream (previously biblical) christianity. This applies particularly to the pentecostal and charismatic section simply because of the sheer size of it around the world.
Whenever I attempt to discuss biblical christianity with people committed to the demonic doctrines referred to in the literature as Latter Rain I am subjected to one form of abuse or another, ranging from total ignorance to verbal abuse and threats such that I will be “hurt” if I dare to challenge the “anointed ones” as they have special leadings which go beyond the clear teachings of the Bible and that God is doing a “new thing.” The fact that this completely contradicts the clear teaching of scripture has absolutely NO effect on these deluded individual who seem to be more concerned about their perceived position on the church hierarchy than they are with BIBLE TRUTH>
When we permit doctrines of demons to be taught in our pulpits and bible colleges, when we dare to suggest that we need something more than what is clearly taught in the bible, when we reject expository bible preaching in favour of personal stories lacking in biblical substance, when what we feel is more important than what the bible teaches we are opening the door to demonic activity.
The book and videos that Andrew Strom has presented on this site and the multitude of information available on these topics provides ample evidence of the extent and scope of this large scale apostasy plummeting spiritual standards and proliferation of new age religious spirits and consequent move away from the will and direction of God toward the will and direction of satan and his cohorts. This is the falling away which the bible warns us about so emphatically. ONLY THOSE WHO REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE WORD OF GOD UNTIL THE VERY END WILL BE SAVED!!!!!!!
Harvey Rosieur you have NO idea what you are talking about!!!!
Get into the Word of God while there is still time!
I am young in the lord and I can tell you that this is the very thing that always turned me off and kept me from becoming a Servant of Jesus Christ. I mean I was also blind to the truth and did not have the Holy spirit to guide me through But I alway thought there was something weird about what is now known as the Prosperity Doctrine. To this day I still have friends who will not even go near a spirit filled church because of all the Crap that we let into our Churches. I am so Glad that I found this web site. there is so much deception in the church today. I weep for the church. We must get right with God and be prepared. It is our lust for money that has become the cancer of the Church and when we become so hungry for a Move of God but have no Foundation in Christ and the Word of God we will fall for anything that seems like God. We have become a wicked and perverse People that seeks only signs and wonders. Thank you Jesus that you are waking up your Church thank you Holy Spirit! you are helping and guiding us to see what we have become so we the Church can REPENT for our ways and move into the Glory of the Lord. I pray that we will stay awake. that we will watch and pray. In Jesus name.
Hi Wayne,
I can testify that Harvey (“Harvey Rosieur”) knows exactly what he is talking about on this issue as I have experienced this myself – being brought up in a cessationist church – and the opposition to coming out of the cessationist belief system and entering the fullness of the Holy Spirit as expressed in the scriptures is huge…
It took me a long time to overcome all the fears and finally be willing to go forward to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues…
It’s been over 10.5 years since that happened and after successive deliverances from demonic entities which were hidden away in the carnal nature I inherited from my forefathers (Druid & Free Mason involvement) around just over a month ago I started to experience the Baptism of Fire which John the Baptist says Jesus will baptise us with…
I am being consumed with His Holy Fire and each day my hunger grows to be filled with His Holy Fire and filled with His Holy Spirit…
These experiences have not lessened my love for the scriptures in fact they have heightened my love for the scriptures as the Holy Spirit has been sending me back into the scriptures to learn what it is that He is wanting to teach me…
No new revelation here, Wayne, nothing to be worried about, but as Harvey has said the Holy Spirit does testify to us of things which are to come and does tell us where He wants us to go, what He wants us to do, He really is very interested in every aspect of our lives and He is very particular that we do exactly what He tells us to do…
He does all this in a non-coersive manner, leading us not dragging us and giving us the desire to do His will and follow Him wherever He goes…
We love Him (the Godhead living inside us – the Father, Son & Holy Spirit) – and want to go where He tells us to go and to do what He tells us to do…
This is what the scripture calls being led by the Spirit and this is the way Jesus lived…
“how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” (Heb 9:14 NASB)
The Lord has each one of His children on this path and will bring us more and more into conformity with the image of His Son as the process progresses…
God bless you Wayne, All the best, Andrew
It is easy to see the corruption when they are asking for our money; we can see it as greed; but the unseen corruption is the word of God. Jesus said, Many will come saying I (Jesus is Christ) and shall deceive many. They will travel the world to make a proselyte and make them twice the child of hell as themselves. Have we empowered them by failing to care what God has written?
Jesus said, Man shall live by EVERY word out of the mouth of God. That is not Christianity. He came to the LOST sheep of Israel saying REPENT, not start a new religion and forsake all God said through Moses. Those who were not lost did not need him. The False Prophet of Deuteronomy 13 would turn the people from God’s ways. Christians essentially make Jesus that false prophet and the Jews cannot receive him as Messiah for that reason alone. WE are the stumbling block. Luke 16:31 (Jesus said) “If they believe not Moses and the Prophets, neither will they believe though one rise from the dead.” (That was to avoid torments after death.)
God has one law for children of Israel and stranger. WE are grafted into THEIR life. Sept 8th pm, 2010 begins God’s 7th month and commanded Sabbath days of NO WORK. Leviticus 23. We do not do sacrifices now, but we can do the days of no work. God said the Sabbaths are His sign between Him and us that He is our God. He said we would be cut off from His people if we fail to keep His MEMORIALS.
Christians have even refuse to keep the 7th day Sabbath written in stone in Ten Commandments of Exodus 20 or other commandments there. Jesus comes in the time of restoration of all things spoken by all the holy prophets since the world began; that includes Moses. Deuteronomy 4:2, Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28-30. NO WHERE is it written to follow a prophet who says we no longer keep the law. We keep it now because it is God’s wisdom and protection for us. We are saved by faith that He is God and His commands are worthy to be honored and followed. Jesus showed us we can live by God’s laws and when we do, great things can happen beyond what we call science on planet earth.
We are kings and priests to protect our religious and government leaders to show them what God says so we can save them and ourselves and others. God is His word and His word is God. If God be God, follow Him.
Hello Wayne:
I would like you to consider the following messages and train of thought.
August 8, motherornations wrote :
August 7, Robert Glenn wrote:
From another thread you claimed that you were a Biblicists. From your expertise, what do you think of a plagiarist, who claims to be a Christian? It would seem to me that the one who steals another persons work, giving no proper credit, and presenting it as his own, is not only a thief, but is a liar also. Seeing that you understand the letter of the law perhaps you can give us further godly wisdom and illustrations of the spirit of James wisdom, when he says: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point is guilty of all.
Robert Glenn
Wayne, I do know what I am talking about, but please, be specific. You are acting as a football player who, if he cannot get the ball, will get the man. That can earn ‘sending off’ as you know. More importantly, I know Whom I have believed and I trust His guidance.I have the Word’ made more sure ‘ by knowing Him. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit about 30 years ago, shortly before the ‘fateful sermon’ I referred to earlier. I have received several personal attacks such as yours; they sadden me but do not embitter me. They have made me stronger. Read Proverbs and you will understand that.
My concern is for you and for all who may be tainted by such ‘doctrine’ as you peddle. I am sorry if that sounds rude but I want others (and you) to flee from such lies. They resist the Holy Spirit and deny spiritual growth. In the church that I referred to there was a traditional stronghold of cessationist teaching. I found shortly afterwards that one of the ‘ring-leaders’ was a Freemason – not secretly but openly. So much for love of truth! The controlling influence was so strong that the same church (once thriving is struggling to remain solvent).
The evidence of what I say is many ‘dead’ traditional churches. I am not defending the others who err, as I have also made clear. I love the truth. The truth is a person; even the Lord. If you are careless with the truth you malign Him.
Please, do as I ask. We all have to give account to Him. Being thought well of by those who think the way you do at present will not help you. Ask Him who has the words of eternal life.
I’ve said it before over and over all the answers are in the Word of God. But you have to read and meditate the Word day and night to find out what’s in the Word of God. It’s not going to come jump in your face. You have to be diligent and dig it out. You only find the golden nuggets by digging. God holds His Word above His name.
The Word will never pass away, it will stand forever according to the Word. Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus. You know one you know the other. I’m not talking about memorizing a few verses.
I’m talking about meditating the Word and taking time to chew it real good. Jesus said if you abide in My Word, you’re My disciple indeed. You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Jesus is saying to live it, meditate it, talk it, pray about it and then comes revalation. This is when you get the truth that will set you free in whatever area of your life you are having problems with. Once you get the truth that will set you free, you are freeee indeed!!
I’m telling you the truth, you have to get into the Word. When you do, the testimonies of God’s awesome power will overwhelm you.
Lord, let Your truth bless some lives here tonight.
Bless you all, jack
As my Gramps used to say “Best be muckin’ out your own stalls before you go talking about cleaning out your neighbor’s byre. From the looks of both sides here, you have some cleaning to do.
Many people are going to Hell falsely believing they are saved and you want me to refrain from any attempt to warn them by passing on the truth of the Word of God so that I can chase my tail trying to satisfy those who love to be spiritually naive and scripturally ignorant. Self obsession is NOT a fruit of the Spirit – forget about yourselves for a while and humbly seek what God is saying or He will give you over to your passions for eternity.
As in the days of Noah, ignorance of the truth is taking most people to hell!!!
All of the questions you ask of me have been dealt with more than adequately before. Read my comments thoroughly and you might be slightly less confused than you obviously are.
Only the Jesus Christ presented to us in the BIBLE is able to save us from the coming judgement.
I urge you to repent of your foolishness and turn to HIM while there is still time.
Proverbs 1:20-30
(20) Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
(21) She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:
(22) ” How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
(23) Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
(24) Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
(25) Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,
(26) I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your terror comes,
(27) When your terror comes like a storm,
And your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
(28) ” Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
(29) Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
(30) They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.
Fearing God is a choice.
Each and every day of our lives, we are faced with many pressures, forces, and influences that compel us to react.
We must make a choice:
“Shall I go this way, or shall I go that way?”
One way represents the fear of God; the other way represents the fear of men, the fear of the loss of pleasure, the fear of the loss of some other physical, social, or cultural “need” that we do not want to lose.
Notice the verbs in this series of verses: “hated,” “did not choose,” “would have none,” “despised”! Is it any wonder that Romans 8:7 says that the carnal mind is enmity against God?
We begin to understand that it was the fear of God, given as the gift of God, that drove us to react, drove us in the direction of the very One who holds in His hands the issues of life! God instilled that reaction within us!
There is an antagonism toward wisdom—toward God and a hatred of His revealed Word in favour of our own foolishness.
Wisdom is not hiding. People have access to common wisdom, which is described as being right out there on the street—out in public. It is in the forest; it is in the city; it is on the job—it is everywhere! We are surrounded by it!
This is why God can make the accusation that the Gentiles who do not have the law are a law unto themselves when they do what the law says is right (Romans 2:14).
Their own conscience bears them witness that they understand what is right and what is wrong (verse 15)!
Proverbs 1 shows that God (personified as Wisdom) uses just about every device imaginable to awaken people to what is right, so that they will fear evil.
We see Wisdom threatening, laughing, and warning, like a dog baring its teeth. If a snarling pit bull braced to attack every time we were about to sin, we would fear, would we not?
Our skin would crawl, our hair would stand on end, and we would be almost spitless!
God has not chosen to warn us in that way, but He does warn us through His Word – THE BIBLE. He also warns us through the consequences of sin, which we see in this world as well as in our own lives.
It is almost as if Wisdom is saying, “I told you so, but you would not listen!”
We ALL need to humbly seek the Will of God through prayerful and thoughtful meditation on HIS REVEALED WORD as provided for us in THE BIBLE
The first thing we need to do is submit to the scriptures in relation to the occultic filth being passed off as contemporary christianity
“Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you” II Corinthians 6:17
Anything which opposes the rightful place of the Word of God in our lives MUST be avoided at all costs as must anything which would exalt itself against Almighty God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Sadly this is almost everything being presented as christianity by what the Bible refers to as the Harlot church.
The harlot church may be identified as desiring UNITY at any cost such that all religions are acceptable except that which strictly adheres to the clear teachings of scripture.
John 8″32 Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
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Jack: I do not deny the importance of the Word, but all the answers we need are not contained in the Scriptures alone. The Word points us to God. Revelation comes from God! Life comes from God. We do not know how to apply the word appropriately unless God (The Holy Spirit ) reveals it to us.It is not simply our own thought processes that give us the answers by mulling over the word. Am I misunderstanding you or are you another cessationist? Are you all slowly coming out of the woodwork.?
Surely you do not think the Holy Spirit gives us unnecessary gifts.The Word tells us about them but it is the Holy Spirit who gives us the specifics as to how and when to apply them. Would youy contradict the Word or are you just sounding off?
Alethia: What are you on about? It might be helpful to someone if you explained what you mean but then you might have to give account for what you say.
Well said Jack.
You are on the right track.
May God bless you and help you to continue to honour HIS WORD.
Of course the Holy Spirit is required for the Word of God to be meaningful to us – to suggest otherwise is like suggesting that fire does not need fuel.
However those brought to spiritual life by the Holy Spirit then find the BIBLE to be absolutely essential as the basis of faith and morals for living a life pleasing to God.
Any spirit which contradicts the Bible in any way or which leads to a Jesus which we are not able to find in the Bible is NOT the Holy Spirit but a demonic spirit. Consistency with the Word of God is the way to test whether a spirit is of God or a deceiving spirit from an alternative or demonic source.
The humble servant of God earnestly seeking to please HIM is totally dependent on and faithful to the WORD OF GOD – THE BIBLE for instruction and direction in life.
The warning of God in 1 Proverbs 1 which I referred to above is particularly applicable today
(22) ” How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
(23) Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
(24) Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
(25) Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,
(26) I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your terror comes,
Hello Wayne,
This is the second time on this thread that you have used a portion of John W. Ritenbaugh sermons. The other is noted above. I have several others that I have bookmarked and could release, and if I had the patience, no doubt could find a host of others.
sermon: The Fear of God
Becoming Submissive
John W. Ritenbaugh
Given 08-Feb-92
Found 2/3 of the way down in the sermon with the linked Proverbs 1:20-30
http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Audio.details/ID/139/Fear-God.htm
Dear Wayne,
I’m sure if the people on this board knew of your problems they would love you and pray for your release from your own chains of obsessions. To all but a few, you are cloaked in your handle of “Wayne”. It is a good time to repent and confess of your need of Jesus Christ and His love that is in His Body of believers.
With His Love, Robert Glenn
Hi Wayne,
Although you’re not admitting it, you’re definitely sounding like a cessationist to me…
Am I right?
Let’s look at the life of the Apostle Paul…
“Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.” (Acts 13:1-3 NASB)
“the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Question – how would they ever have known that from the scriptures?
“They passed through the Phrygian and Galatian region, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia;
and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;
and passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas.
A vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing and appealing to him, and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.”
When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.” (Acts 16:6-10 NASB)
“having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia;”
Question – again, how would they ever have known that from the scriptures?
Let’s look at what the Apostle Paul taught…
“Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
Therefore it says,
“WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”
(Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.” (Eph 4:1-16 NASB)
“until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” – have “we all” attained these things – remembering that “we all” here is speaking of the entire body of Christ until He comes again?
Let’s look at the Apostle Paul’s own personal testimony…
“Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,” (1 Cor 1:1a NASB)
“And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness ” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
I have become foolish; you yourselves compelled me Actually I should have been commended by you, for in no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles, even though I am a nobody.
The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.” (2 Cor 12:9-12 NASB)
He was humble, he knew he was weak, he didn’t trust in his own ability, He let the Lord live through him, he was “well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.” and because of that “even though” by his own admission he was “a nobody” the “signs of a true apostle were performed” through Paul “with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.”
Let’s look at history…
As I’ve searched – as I’ve been led – through history I’ve found two men that I believe to have been Apostles since the time of the early church – the reason I say I believe them to be apostles is that I saw in their lives the same characteristics, the humility, the laying down of their lives, the being filled with the life of the Holy Spirit and letting Him live through them, as what I see in the life of the Apostle Paul and as well as that I see “the signs” – check me out on this – have a look, an honest look at the life of Rees Howells and have an honest look at the life of Smith Wigglesworth – who both died around the same time in the late 1940′s (Wigglesworth) and early 1950′s (Howells) – I believe that these two men were Apostles – not in the sense that they wrote the scripture because they didn’t, not in the sense that they brought any new revelation because they didn’t but in the sense that the fruit of their ministry equipped “the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” – they have laid a foundation – not a new foundation but a return to the foundation that has already been laid, that of Christ – upon which we, the body of Christ, are now building…
Yes, the enemy has come in and sown tares amongst the wheat, yes, there have been copious quantities of false apostles, false prophets, false evangelists, false pastors and false teachers, false workers of miracles, false signs and false wonders which a whole lot of false or deceived brethren have been operating in but does that mean that there is no true, does that mean that God is not capable of raising up the true? Is God still the Almighty Wayne? Has He changed? Has He gone on holiday? Has He fallen asleep? Is He just sitting back with His arms folded counting down the time until we are caught up together with Him in the clouds?
“And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.” (Luke 19:13 KJV)
Please consider before the Lord what I am saying, test what I am saying according to scripture and according to the inner witness of the Holy Spirit in your heart, let the peace of God be your umpire regarding what I am saying, God has so much more for you Wayne that what you’re presently experiencing, He wants to set you free…
May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit Wayne, All the best, Andrew
Correction:
“…than what you’re presently experiencing…”
We are supposed to put links under our source quotations to give credit to the original writer, even if they are dead. :)
I have seen a large segment of the info on this page http://executableoutlines.com/ju/ju_02.htm
quoted word for word within this conversation, without giving credit to this other writer.
We need to love truth, Jesus said that those that worship MUST worship in “spirit and in truth”.
There is no such thing as a God lover who loves not the truth.
The heart of man is wicked above all things, who can know it, says Jesus. And Paul encourages us to “make no provision for the flesh”. Satan’s biggest deception is to help us to hide the truth and live a lie. Deception is a powerful and silent killer. Please let us turn and repent of our wayward ways and ask Christ to open our eyes and take the deceptive scales off.
I pray this also for myself, Jesus soften our hard hearts. Amen.
with love,
Sarah
Ezekiel 33:1-7
(1) Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, (2) “Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, (3) when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, (4) then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. (5) He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. (6) But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’ (7) “So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me.
In His explanation of Ezekiel’s role as a prophet, God informs the man that he was to be a watchman for the people. Of what use is a watchman if the enemy’s advance and all the pertinent details of his attack are already known? Anciently, a watchman would stand in a high place, upon a wall or a tower, and scan the horizon for enemies. When he saw them approaching, he was responsible for shouting a warning to the unsuspecting citizens that danger was near and that they needed to prepare for the onslaught. However, he did not know exact details—only what he could discern from his vantage point.
Once war begins, the most precious commodity is precise and timely information, and it is almost never transmitted in time to those who need it most. The best scenario a leader can ask for is to know as far in advance as possible that his enemy is on the march against him, for this gives him time to make the preparations necessary to secure his people and possessions, assemble his forces, and meet the enemy on the battlefield of his choosing. An excellent watchman just might give him the advance warning he needs.
However, this presupposes a physical attack.
A continued reading of Ezekiel 33 clarifies that the prophet was not warning about a physical enemy but a spiritual one. Ezekiel’s job was to warn the wicked in Israel to turn “from his way” (Ezekiel 33:8-11). His job as watchman was spiritual in nature! He was to warn against sinful lifestyles, against iniquity and wickedness, and to implore them to repent and live righteously. A companion passage in Ezekiel 3:16-21 makes this plain.
In other words, his role as prophet/watchman—just as a Christian minister’s job is today—was heavily weighted toward preaching and teaching God’s way of righteousness. It was essentially, like the gospel of the Kingdom of God, a warning message of repentance and an exhortation to growth in faith and obedience to holiness. In this regard, the prophetic hints about future events were, as they are to us, prods to motivate change before the coming, dreadful Day of the Lord.
________________________________________
It is much better to use the sound biblical instruction of a person expounding the Word of God, and I am NOT suggesting that anybody is perfect but many are at least seeking the Will of God from the right source, the BIBLE, than the absolute drivel of people claiming to have private unbiblical, antibiblical or superbiblical revelations such as is so prevalent today.
The HOLY SPIRIT will NEVER lead one away from the Word of God but will ALWAYS confirm it.
My whole point has been and ALWAYS will be that GOD is NOT asking anybody to reinvent the wheel. He in fact strictly forbids the adding to or taking away of anything to do with HIS WORD.
The TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD WILL ALWAYS BE THE TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD.
Sound bible exposition is and will ALWAYS be sound bible exposition.
FALSE teaching whether original or from some other source is and always will be FALSE teaching.
As I have stated repeatedly this is a blog site NOT a university I am NOT writing for a Ph.D nor do I expect to receive an academic award of any kind.
I am, in fact, trying to help people escape from the delusion which God has sent to those who do NOT love the truth of HIS WORD. Eternity is at stake here NOT academic recognition for what I am saying or the teachings that I am endorsing.
I HAVE NOT AND NEVER WILL ASK ANYONE TO FOLLOW ME PERSONALLY – THIS IS ANTICHRIST IN NATURE AND ANATHEMA TO ME.
People are going to hell because they have been deluded into believing the lies that have swamped what might previously have been referred to as the christian church.
Andrew Strom himself has attempted to address some of these issues and has clearly shown that the consequences of permitting doctrines of demons into the church is demonic activity in the church. This demonic activity has now overrun the church.
Only those who remain faithful to the Word of God and refuse to invent new and strange teachings will be saved.
Sound BIBLE teaching is ALWAYS sound bible teaching regardless of whose words they are.
I HAVE NOTHING PERSONAL TO GAIN FROM PASSING ON THE WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST AND HIS APOSTLES!!!!!!
Any bit of truth which might persuade some to repent and turn to the Jesus Christ presented to us in the Bible is obviously eternally beneficial. Whatever means it takes to save some will be beneficial when the deluded multitudes are in hell.
Any truth that I have acquired has been gained by hard work prayerfully studying the Word of God and various works by faithful scholars who have enabled me to validate my conclusions through such means as correlation with the original languages, consistency across the entire bible, historical and cultural contexts.
I WILL NEVER PRESUME TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH THE WISDOM OF THE WORD OF GOD AND WILL NEVER EVER SUGGEST THAT SOME LEADING THAT I MAY HAVE HAS ANY PLACE IN COMPETITION WITH THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD.
The eternal destiny of ALL whom I may be able to influence for God is FAR too important for that.
Whatever Spirit is leading you people away from the Bible and into new and strange teachings is clearly the Spirit of ANTI-CHRIST and something I definitely want nothing to do with.
The entire BIBLE was written to warn genuine christians NOT to have anything to do with the super spiritual wackos who know better than God HIMSELF what is going on in the spirit realm.
As a bible believing christian humbly submitted to the will of GOD I definitely REJECT the false religion many of you people are trying to impose upon the deliberately scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive who are prepared to desert christianity in favour of the new thing your antichrist spirit is leading them into.
I urge ALL who have known the Lord Jesus Christ to remain faithful to Biblical christianity as advised by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
The genuine Holy Spirit is available to assist the genuine christian to resist this tsunami of religious filth that has overrun the church in fulfilment of bible prophecy about the last days.
Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
This evil which has invaded the church must be resisted with ALL the spiritual armour we have if we are to be with God in heaven at the last. This is the ultimate prize for our faithfulness.
Genuine Bible believing christians must “come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing,” or we too will be deceived by this religious filth.
We are called not to “trust in the arm of the flesh”, but walk in the spirit so that we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The lusts of the flesh include pride. Pride in our abilities, pride in the fact that we are humble christians, pride because we hold strictly to the word.
Let us be encouraged by Paul’s words in regards to this matter, that ALL things pertaining to this world are but dung compared to winning Christ. Paul as it states has many reasons to trust in the arm of the flesh. Let us lay off the works of the flesh and the sin’s of the flesh, and the pride of life itself, and let us win the favour of Christ.
Php 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
Php 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
love,
Sarah
Apostasy from or unfaithfulness to the Word of God is the same as wholeheartedly claiming ETERNAL DAMNATION.
Faithfulness to the Word of God has Heaven as the prize.
Apostasy from the Word of God has HELL as the prize.
The message can be NO clearer than that.
When we start looking for God to do some “New Thing”, some “thing” not revealed to us in
the scriptures, we are setting ourselves up for a strong delusion and giving place to the Devil! The
scriptures are clear – God has in these last days spoken to us through his son Jesus Christ. Since the
canon of scripture was completed with the inspired writings of the Apostles of our Lord, there has
not been, and will not be, any “new” revelation by God. The Bible makes this perfectly clear, with
warnings in the beginning, middle, and end of the scriptures – warnings against taking away from or
adding to the revelation of God to man contained in the Bible:
“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away
from it.” (Deut. 12:32 NKJV)
“Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him; do not add to
His words, lest He reprove you, and you be found a liar.” (Proverbs 30:5-6 NKJV)
“For I testify to everyone who heard the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds
to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes
away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of
Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Rev. 22:18-19 NKJV)
To these I could certainly add Isaiah’s admonition, “To the law and to the testimony! If they
do not speak according to this word it is because there is no light in them.” And many others.
The point is that if God gives any revelation to men today that revelation will line up perfectly with the
revelation He has already given “once for all” in His word. If it doesn’t then it is not from God. This
hunger for a “new thing” or “new revelation” reminds one of the pagan philosophers that Paul encountered
on Mars Hill, and the early Gnostic heretics:
“ For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either
to tell or to hear some new thing.” (Acts 17:21 NKJV)
R. C. Sproul writes:
The Gnostics were so called because of their view of revelation. The word gnosis is the
Greek word for knowledge. In many cases the Gnostic heretics did not make a frontal assault against
the apostles or against the apostolic teaching of scripture. In fact, many of them insisted that they
were genuine, Bible believing Christians. It wasn’t that they rejected the Bible; they just claimed an
additional source of knowledge or insight that was superior to or at least beyond the knowledge of
Scripture. The “gnostikoi” were “those in the know.” Their knowledge was not derived from
intellectual comprehension of Scripture or by empirical research, but was mystical, direct, and
immediate. God “revealed” private, intuitive insights to them that carried nothing less than divine
authority.
God is not giving any “new revelation” to men today. And neither is He doing any “new
thing” on the Earth. Any “thing”, any experience or knowledge that God has for his people will be
found in the scriptures. Any experience or knowledge that is not found among it’s pages is not for
God’s people. Yes, there are spiritual gifts, valid spiritual gifts – revelation gifts, like the word of
wisdom, the word of knowledge, and prophecy that I believe are just as valid for the Church today as
they were for the Church of the Apostles. I have seen these gifts in operation in the Church, and have
experienced some of them myself and they are a beautiful thing both to behold and experience. Very
edifying. However, when the revelations that come through these gifts go beyond or contradict, or
add to or take away from the revelation of God contained in the Scriptures then they are nothing but
counterfeits. Experiences such as “slain in the spirit”, “holy laughter”, “drunkness in the spirit” and
most of the others that are coming with the so-called “revivals” at Toronto, Pensacola and other
places simply cannot be found anywhere in scripture. The leadership of these “revivals” know this
full well – and have stopped for the most part trying to defend them scripturally. Tricia Tillin writes:
John Wimber came from Quakerism. Is this why he has traces of the belief in the supremacy
of the inner revelation over and above the written word? In his book Power Evangelism Wimber
explains: “God uses our experiences to show us more fully what he teaches us in scripture, many
times toppling or altering elements of our theology and world view.” From Testing the Fruit of the
Vineyard, by John Goodwin (former pastor of the Calvary Chapel, San Jose [1990]) who traveled
extensively with John Wimber: “It is a common statement of Wimber’s that ‘God is greater than his
Word’. This means two things. First, that there is an essential truth in extra-biblical sources, and
secondly that the phenomena experienced by attendees of Vineyard seminars and church services do
not need to be validated by scripture. They could, according to Wimber, contradict God’s word and
still be ‘from the Lord.’”
“If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks
for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your
children, how much more will your heavenly father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
(Luke 11:11-13 NKJV)
On the surface this seems to be a valid objection. Jesus clearly promises here that if we seek Him
earnestly for the Holy Spirit we will receive the Holy Spirit, not a counterfeit, not another spirit – a serpent
or a scorpion. So how could these people at North Battleford where this Latter Rain filth started have received a visitation by seducing spirits?
The answer is that they could not – if they were truly seeking God for a valid, Biblical move of His Holy Spirit.
But when you are looking for a “new thing”, a revelation or an experience that’s outside of the
Word of God and the experience of the Apostles then you’re no longer asking for bread.
You’re outside the area in which God’s Spirit moves and into the area where other spirits move – the occult! You’re essentially asking God for a scorpion. If you continue to seek after a scorpion long enough eventually God is going to allow one to come along – and possibly/probably to sting you.
Remember, Jesus said that it’s “an evil and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign”.
Faithfulness to the Word of God is what GOD requires of the truly Born Again believer NOT this harlotry which has become popular amongst the religious people of our generation.
Wayne: I will leave you with the warning Jesus gave, quoting Isaiah ,in Mark 7:7 “in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men”
and v.8 ” You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.”
You are a victim of bad teaching.
Harvey
Only faithful commitment to the CLEAR teachings of scripture will prevent those humbly submitted to the will of GOD from accepting and promulgating such false teachings as these Latter Rain heresies and the myriad of other false teachings which abound.
We are on shaky ground indeed when we think we are wiser than the WORD of GOD itself or that some spirit will give us teachings which are superior to the clear teachings of the Word of God.
ONLY THE JESUS CHRIST OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US.
THE DEMONICALLY INSPIRED IMAGINATIONS OF THE HUMAN MIND WILL BE INEFFECTIVE ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY.
Hi Wayne,
I notice that you haven’t responded to any of my posts on this thread directly, why is that?
Do you consider me to be a brother in the Lord Wayne?
I’ve spoken earnestly to you in love Wayne, why will you not speak to me?
When you seek the Lord, in your inner man, for the testimony of the Holy Spirit witnessing within your spirit that you are a son of God, what do you hear Wayne?
When you seek the Lord, in your inner man, for the testimony of the Holy Spirit as to whether I am a son of God, what do you hear Wayne?
If the Lord testifies to your spirit that we are brothers in him why are you avoiding responding to my posts?
I was encouraged to see that in some of your recent posts you’ve started to acknowledge your sources, but you still haven’t completely answered the question as to whether you’re a cessationist or not.
I’m taking it for granted brother that you believe that the Holy Spirit comes and indwells the born again believer at salvation and begins to produce “the fruit of the Spirit”, i.e. “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness” and “temperance” (Gal 5:22-23 KJV) which is by far the most important aspect of our relationship with the Lord as if we do not have this as a basis all else will be worth nothing… but… could I ask you…
Do you believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial confirmation of speaking in tongues? Have you experienced this yourself Wayne?
Do you believe in the Baptism of Fire? Have you experienced this yourself Wayne?
“DIFFERENT KINDS OF GIFTS” (1 Cor 12:4 NIV):
Do you believe that the Lord still gives to His Church today the gift/s of “prophesying… serving… teaching… encouraging… contributing to the needs of others… leadership…” and “showing mercy”? (Rom 12:6-8 NIV)
“DIFFERENT KINDS OF SERVICE” (1 Cor 12:5 NIV):
Do you believe that the Lord still gives within His Church today “some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers”? (Eph 4:11 NIV)
“DIFFERENT KINDS OF WORKING” (1 Cor 12:6 NIV):
Do you believe that the Lord still gives to His Church today “the manifestation of the Spirit… for the common good”? i.e. “To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues” where “All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.”? (1 Cor 12:7-11 NIV)
If you haven’t experienced these aspects in your walk with the Lord then you are missing out on a great treasure in your relationship with the Lord, which the Lord has made readily available to you, brother Wayne, please for the sake of Christ, avail yourself of all that Christ has to offer you in the way of “our common salvation” and “that you contend earnestly for the faith” – all of it – “which was once for all handed down to the saints.” (Jude 1:3 NASB)
God bless you brother, Andrew
No offense to Lee Grady and all of the others who write articles like this one, but this type of stuff is old hat!
Given the fact that what Lee (and others) say is very true.
It takes quite a while for charismatics to learn the language.
Enough is enough!
Where are the men of God who tell us what God is looking for?
To keep expounding on “what is wrong” does very little good.
What does the Lord require of us in this hour?
What shall this man do?Just keep talking about all of the off-center, off-tangent stuff will not help.
If you have no clue as to what God is looking for His remnant to “do” then email me.
Bob
AMEN Brother Bob.
Andrew
Only faithful commitment to the CLEAR teachings of scripture will prevent those humbly submitted to the will of GOD from accepting and promulgating such false teachings as these Latter Rain heresies and the myriad of other false teachings which abound.
We are on shaky ground indeed when we think we are wiser than the WORD of GOD itself or that some spirit will give us teachings which are superior to the clear teachings of the Word of God.
ONLY THE JESUS CHRIST OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US.
THE DEMONICALLY INSPIRED IMAGINATIONS OF THE HUMAN MIND WILL BE INEFFECTIVE ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY.
Andrew and Bob and OTHERS
GOD IS LOOKING FOR FAITHFUL COMMITMENT TO HIS WORD
Only faithful commitment to the CLEAR teachings of scripture will prevent those humbly submitted to the will of GOD from accepting and promulgating such false teachings as these Latter Rain heresies and the myriad of other false teachings which abound.
We are on shaky ground indeed when we think we are wiser than the WORD of GOD itself or that some spirit will give us teachings which are superior to the clear teachings of the Word of God.
ONLY THE JESUS CHRIST OF THE BIBLE IS ABLE TO SAVE US.
THE DEMONICALLY INSPIRED IMAGINATIONS OF THE HUMAN MIND WILL BE INEFFECTIVE ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY.
Andrew, at best you seem to have very little understanding of what is going on in the church today and are apparently obsessed with the first principles of pentecostal doctrine.
The Gifts of the Spirit function to confirm the Word of God NOT contradict it. They are efffective when the church is in biblical working order and submitted to the Word of God – this is clearly NOT the case today. What you refer to as the gifts of the Holy Spirit are more closely related to demonic activity in the apostate church.
SADLY many people insist on subverting BIBLE truth and inverting the order of things which God has established.
The Word of God is NOT subject to whatever spiritual phenomena happen to be in operation at any time. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit ALWAYS operate within the framework established by God as set down for us in HIS WORD.
Authentic Gifts of the Holy Spirit NEVER lead people into apostasy, spiritual adultery or New Age religiousity as those humbly submitted to the will of God are witnessing today.
They will NEVER lead one to engage in the spiritual filth that has overtaken the church.
AUTHENTIC GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL ALWAYS CONFIRM HIS WORD AND LEAD PEOPLE TOWARDS THE TRUTH NOT AWAY FROM IT as is clearly evident in the harlot church today.
The answer is clear for ALL who will listen
GOD IS SHOUTING IT OUT FOR ALL WHO WILL LISTEN – REPENT from your preoccupation with occultic religion based on nothing but your own imaginations inspired by Satan and his demonic hordes.and turn instead to Jesus Christ, honour HIS Word and humbly seek to please HIM the way HE is asking you to.
Have NOTHING to do with the harlot church, such as appears to be the passion of so many people on these various sites, obsessed with putting on a spiritual circus to ensnare the scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive and take them on to HELL in complete delusion.
Accept the WARNING before God gives up on you completely and gives you over to the religious depravity which has over taken so much of what might previously have been referred to as the christian church.
“And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man.” –Genesis vi. 3.
Give up on the Word of God and God will give up on you.
Andrew,
I have answered your (irrelevant) questions more than adequately on a number of occasions throughout these sites.
Being aware and concerned about the TRUTH of GODS WORD does not reduce my faith in any way.
SOLA SCRIPTURA in NO WAY implies a belief in cessationism – ALL it does is provide a means by which to JUDGE ALL THINGS AND HOLD FAST TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD as we are instructed to do.
The Bible clearly teaches what the role of the HOLY SPIRIT is and all bible believing christians are bound by that teaching.
As in the days of Noah, however, ignorance of the truth is taking most people to hell.
I have a deep sense of the tragedy of so many people going to hell falsely believing they are saved and in the case of many pentecostal/charismatic people arrogantly believing they are superior christians because of their obsession with spiritual phenomena regardless of the source as you seem to be presenting yourself as with your repeated insistence on returning to first principles of christian faith.
These “superior christians” are the people who believe that The Holy Spirit will lead them in a manner contrary to the Word of God and that behaviour contrary to that revealed by God in HIS Word as acce[table to HIM is some how acceptable because of their involvement in some spiritual circus which they refuse to judge by BIBLE standards because they “know” (gnostically I assume) a better way.
I am more concerned about trying to get the TRUTH out to any of those poor deluded souls who might be interested than to be continually going back over first principles with people who are apparently disinterested or incapable of grasping the gravity of the situation facing so many people today.
Andrew
IT IS TIME TO GROW UP SPIRITUALLY AND MOVE BEYOND SPIRITUAL NAPPIES AND INTO THE REAL ISSUES FACING US FOR ETERNITY.
NOTHING DEALS WITH THESE ISSUES BETTER THAN THE COMMENT YOU APPEAR TO HAVE OVERLOOKED ABOVE WHICH I REPEAT HERE FOR YOUR ETERNAL BENEFIT
When we start looking for God to do some “New Thing”, some “thing” not revealed to us in
the scriptures, we are setting ourselves up for a strong delusion and giving place to the Devil! The
scriptures are clear – God has in these last days spoken to us through his son Jesus Christ. Since the
canon of scripture was completed with the inspired writings of the Apostles of our Lord, there has
not been, and will not be, any “new” revelation by God. The Bible makes this perfectly clear, with
warnings in the beginning, middle, and end of the scriptures – warnings against taking away from or
adding to the revelation of God to man contained in the Bible:
“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away
from it.” (Deut. 12:32 NKJV)
“Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him; do not add to
His words, lest He reprove you, and you be found a liar.” (Proverbs 30:5-6 NKJV)
“For I testify to everyone who heard the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds
to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes
away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of
Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Rev. 22:18-19 NKJV)
To these I could certainly add Isaiah’s admonition, “To the law and to the testimony! If they
do not speak according to this word it is because there is no light in them.” And many others.
The point is that if God gives any revelation to men today that revelation will line up perfectly with the
revelation He has already given “once for all” in His word. If it doesn’t then it is not from God. This
hunger for a “new thing” or “new revelation” reminds one of the pagan philosophers that Paul encountered
on Mars Hill, and the early Gnostic heretics:
“ For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either
to tell or to hear some new thing.” (Acts 17:21 NKJV)
R. C. Sproul writes:
The Gnostics were so called because of their view of revelation. The word gnosis is the
Greek word for knowledge. In many cases the Gnostic heretics did not make a frontal assault against
the apostles or against the apostolic teaching of scripture. In fact, many of them insisted that they
were genuine, Bible believing Christians. It wasn’t that they rejected the Bible; they just claimed an
additional source of knowledge or insight that was superior to or at least beyond the knowledge of
Scripture. The “gnostikoi” were “those in the know.” Their knowledge was not derived from
intellectual comprehension of Scripture or by empirical research, but was mystical, direct, and
immediate. God “revealed” private, intuitive insights to them that carried nothing less than divine
authority.
God is not giving any “new revelation” to men today. And neither is He doing any “new
thing” on the Earth. Any “thing”, any experience or knowledge that God has for his people will be
found in the scriptures. Any experience or knowledge that is not found among it’s pages is not for
God’s people. Yes, there are spiritual gifts, valid spiritual gifts – revelation gifts, like the word of
wisdom, the word of knowledge, and prophecy that I believe are just as valid for the Church today as
they were for the Church of the Apostles. I have seen these gifts in operation in the Church, and have
experienced some of them myself and they are a beautiful thing both to behold and experience. Very
edifying. However, when the revelations that come through these gifts go beyond or contradict, or
add to or take away from the revelation of God contained in the Scriptures then they are nothing but
counterfeits. Experiences such as “slain in the spirit”, “holy laughter”, “drunkness in the spirit” and
most of the others that are coming with the so-called “revivals” at Toronto, Pensacola and other
places simply cannot be found anywhere in scripture. The leadership of these “revivals” know this
full well – and have stopped for the most part trying to defend them scripturally. Tricia Tillin writes:
John Wimber came from Quakerism. Is this why he has traces of the belief in the supremacy
of the inner revelation over and above the written word? In his book Power Evangelism Wimber
explains: “God uses our experiences to show us more fully what he teaches us in scripture, many
times toppling or altering elements of our theology and world view.” From Testing the Fruit of the
Vineyard, by John Goodwin (former pastor of the Calvary Chapel, San Jose [1990]) who traveled
extensively with John Wimber: “It is a common statement of Wimber’s that ‘God is greater than his
Word’. This means two things. First, that there is an essential truth in extra-biblical sources, and
secondly that the phenomena experienced by attendees of Vineyard seminars and church services do
not need to be validated by scripture. They could, according to Wimber, contradict God’s word and
still be ‘from the Lord.’”
“If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks
for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your
children, how much more will your heavenly father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
(Luke 11:11-13 NKJV)
On the surface this seems to be a valid objection. Jesus clearly promises here that if we seek Him
earnestly for the Holy Spirit we will receive the Holy Spirit, not a counterfeit, not another spirit – a serpent
or a scorpion. So how could these people at North Battleford where this Latter Rain filth started have received a visitation by seducing spirits?
The answer is that they could not – if they were truly seeking God for a valid, Biblical move of His Holy Spirit.
But when you are looking for a “new thing”, a revelation or an experience that’s outside of the
Word of God and the experience of the Apostles then you’re no longer asking for bread.
You’re outside the area in which God’s Spirit moves and into the area where other spirits move – the occult! You’re essentially asking God for a scorpion. If you continue to seek after a scorpion long enough eventually God is going to allow one to come along – and possibly/probably to sting you.
Remember, Jesus said that it’s “an evil and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign”.
Faithfulness to the Word of God is what GOD requires of the truly Born Again believer NOT this harlotry which has become popular amongst the religious people of our generation.
Hi Wayne,
Dude, you still haven’t answered my question, have you personally been Baptised in the Holy Spirit? Do you speak in tongues?
Have you personally been Baptised with Fire?
The way you post is definitely in an “authoritative” way but I do not sense in my spirit that the “authority” you are posting in is that of the Holy Spirit.
That is why I ask you these questions.
If you were posting in the authority of the Holy Spirit then your message would have real power, life changing, renewing power and would bless it’s hearers and turn them from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of the Son He loves.
I do not disagree with you at all that the “organised”, “institutionalised”, “church” has and is becoming “anathema” to God and that is why He is calling His people to come out of her.
The reason the Lord is calling His people to come out of her is to re-establish the true new testament model as depicted in one of my posts above where I quoted a lot of scripture from the end of the gospel of Matthew, Mark and Luke and from the beginning of the book of Acts, this is the “Reformation” that God is calling for at this time, it is nothing new, it is a return to “the old paths” the “good way” of the truth of scripture as given us in the new testament.
“Thus says the LORD, “Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’” (Jerem 6:16 NASB)
The problem is that we have strayed from the “old paths” and the “good way” and that is why the Lord is bringing us back, that is what “Revival” is and it takes “Repentance” – a change of heart, not a change of thinking, but a change of heart.
Only the Holy Spirit can change a heart. Man’s knowledge can change another man’s carnal way of thinking and puff him up to think that he “knows something” but only the Spirit of God can change someone in their heart, or as the scripture says, “in the spirit of *their* mind”.
Those of us who have been “born again to a new a living way” have a new heart and a new spirit and the Holy Spirit indwelling us, “we love Him because He first loved us” and when He speaks to us we hear Him because we are His sheep and we desire to do what He tells us to do in our new hearts.
That is why what we need today – after coming to an understanding of all the filth that is out there in the “church”, all the lies, all the deceit, all the satanic counterfeit, all the flesh, all the carnal desires, all the pride of life, all the lusts of the flesh – to seek God for what is true.
If we seek God for what is true and what is His intention for His Church at this point in history, we, as a Church, will commence to move forward in the things of God.
Prayer is key to this, speaking in the authority of the Holy Spirit is key to this, as led through a spirit of prayer.
“Pray without ceasing… for this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus” – this scripture is becoming part of my life, I am learning to speak out of prayer – and when I pray I pray in the Spirit (in tongues) and then in English as He gives me the words in English and then as He leads me to speak I speak the words He gives me to speak. I am learning as He leads me.
Yes, by all means we need to expose evil, shout it from the rooftops as the Lord leads us but after all is said and done, are we providing the true saints of God with an alternative which is real and living and vibrant and full of the life of God?
It is the anointing that breaks the yoke – not a false anointing – not a false sign – not a false vision – but the Holy Spirit Himself, living and active within us who breaks the yoke.
“And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.” (Isaiah 10:27 KJV)
“Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.” (John 7:37-39 NASB)
“Where there is no vision, the people perish” (Prov 29:18a KJV)
What vision do you have to offer the people Wayne? What vision does the Holy Spirit have to offer the people Wayne?
What we need is people like Smith Wigglesworth and Rees Howells – as I mentioned in a couple of my posts above – who lived the word, literally demonstrated the word, everywhere they went the word was demonstrated, their lives shone for the glory of God, His character was seen through their lives, they affected people with their presence, why? because they were filled with the Holy Spirit; why did signs accompany them? because they were filled with the Holy Spirit; why did they not live in defeat or bondage to sin? because the Holy Spirit lived through them and not they themselves.
I want to be a man of God who is filled with the Holy Spirit and has the Holy Spirit living through me 24/7 for the rest of my life – that is my goal – that is what I’m living for and whatever the Lord does with me is for His glory.
Dude, let’s seek the Lord while He may be found and work together for the glory of His Kingdom, Amen?
All the best, Andrew
Correction:
“… of the flesh – is to seek God for what is true.”
Andrew Horton,
After you have been Baptized in the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues, how do you get Baptized with fire? I’m serious. Maybe I’ve overlooked something in the Word. The only time I have seen and heard such as this, was the todd bentley fiasco and the false prophets on the elijahlist. I got envolved with the Toronto catch the fire. Is that what you are talking about? The main thing I remember about that ordeal was all the hollering about fire this and fire that. Then the fire tunnel was all about calling the fire down on you. That was a real devil’s den. Totally demonic.
Yes I got cleaned up. I’m determined not to get deceived again. Now I test the spirits and pray for the gift of Discerning of Spirits.
God is faithful. We’ve been able to head off a lot of demonic activity in meeting since then. Let me know Andrew J.
Bless the Lord … Bless His Holy Name. jack
Andrew,
Whatever religion you are peddling is clearly NOT biblical christianity but a hybrid religion comprised of doctrines of demons and teachings of men.
I am trying to help genuine born again bible believing christians who have been deceived by this rubbish to get back on track with the ONE TRUE GOD.
A return to the christianity taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles is the vision I have for those who will be saved at the Judgement Day. Only faithfulness to BIBLICAL christianity will cut it with GOD on the judgement day. ALL of the false religions combined will only lead people to HELL.
WE MUST SUBMIT TO HIS WILL OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES FOR REBELLION WHICH IS ETERNAL DAMNATION.
I have answered your (irrelevant) questions more than adequately on a number of occasions throughout these sites. READ what I have had to say there may yet be hope for you.
I urge you to seek the ONE true Jesus Christ before it is too late for you.
Being aware and concerned about the TRUTH of GODS WORD does not reduce my faith in any way.
SOLA SCRIPTURA in NO WAY implies a belief in cessationism – ALL it does is provide a means by which to JUDGE ALL THINGS AND HOLD FAST TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD as we are instructed to do.
The Bible clearly teaches what the role of the HOLY SPIRIT is and all bible believing christians are bound by that teaching.
As in the days of Noah, however, ignorance of the truth is taking most people to hell.
I have a deep sense of the tragedy of so many people going to hell falsely believing they are saved and in the case of many pentecostal/charismatic people arrogantly believing they are superior christians because of their obsession with spiritual phenomena regardless of the source as you seem to be presenting yourself as with your repeated insistence on returning to first principles of christian faith.
These “superior christians” are the people who believe that The Holy Spirit will lead them in a manner contrary to the Word of God and that behaviour contrary to that revealed by God in HIS Word as acce[table to HIM is some how acceptable because of their involvement in some spiritual circus which they refuse to judge by BIBLE standards because they “know” (gnostically I assume) a better way.
I am more concerned about trying to get the TRUTH out to any of those poor deluded souls who might be interested than to be continually going back over first principles with people who are apparently disinterested or incapable of grasping the gravity of the situation facing so many people today.
Andrew
IT IS TIME TO GROW UP SPIRITUALLY AND MOVE BEYOND SPIRITUAL INFANCY AND INTO THE REAL ISSUES FACING US FOR ETERNITY.
ONCE AGAIN NOTHING DEALS WITH THESE ISSUES BETTER THAN THE COMMENT YOU APPEAR TO HAVE OVERLOOKED ABOVE WHICH I REPEAT HERE FOR YOUR ETERNAL BENEFIT
When we start looking for God to do some “New Thing”, some “thing” not revealed to us in
the scriptures, we are setting ourselves up for a strong delusion and giving place to the Devil! The
scriptures are clear – God has in these last days spoken to us through his son Jesus Christ. Since the
canon of scripture was completed with the inspired writings of the Apostles of our Lord, there has
not been, and will not be, any “new” revelation by God. The Bible makes this perfectly clear, with
warnings in the beginning, middle, and end of the scriptures – warnings against taking away from or
adding to the revelation of God to man contained in the Bible:
“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away
from it.” (Deut. 12:32 NKJV)
“Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him; do not add to
His words, lest He reprove you, and you be found a liar.” (Proverbs 30:5-6 NKJV)
“For I testify to everyone who heard the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds
to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes
away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of
Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Rev. 22:18-19 NKJV)
To these I could certainly add Isaiah’s admonition, “To the law and to the testimony! If they
do not speak according to this word it is because there is no light in them.” And many others.
The point is that if God gives any revelation to men today that revelation will line up perfectly with the
revelation He has already given “once for all” in His word. If it doesn’t then it is not from God. This
hunger for a “new thing” or “new revelation” reminds one of the pagan philosophers that Paul encountered
on Mars Hill, and the early Gnostic heretics:
“ For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either
to tell or to hear some new thing.” (Acts 17:21 NKJV)
R. C. Sproul writes:
The Gnostics were so called because of their view of revelation. The word gnosis is the
Greek word for knowledge. In many cases the Gnostic heretics did not make a frontal assault against
the apostles or against the apostolic teaching of scripture. In fact, many of them insisted that they
were genuine, Bible believing Christians. It wasn’t that they rejected the Bible; they just claimed an
additional source of knowledge or insight that was superior to or at least beyond the knowledge of
Scripture. The “gnostikoi” were “those in the know.” Their knowledge was not derived from
intellectual comprehension of Scripture or by empirical research, but was mystical, direct, and
immediate. God “revealed” private, intuitive insights to them that carried nothing less than divine
authority.
God is not giving any “new revelation” to men today. And neither is He doing any “new
thing” on the Earth. Any “thing”, any experience or knowledge that God has for his people will be
found in the scriptures. Any experience or knowledge that is not found among it’s pages is not for
God’s people. Yes, there are spiritual gifts, valid spiritual gifts – revelation gifts, like the word of
wisdom, the word of knowledge, and prophecy that I believe are just as valid for the Church today as
they were for the Church of the Apostles. I have seen these gifts in operation in the Church, and have
experienced some of them myself and they are a beautiful thing both to behold and experience. Very
edifying. However, when the revelations that come through these gifts go beyond or contradict, or
add to or take away from the revelation of God contained in the Scriptures then they are nothing but
counterfeits. Experiences such as “slain in the spirit”, “holy laughter”, “drunkness in the spirit” and
most of the others that are coming with the so-called “revivals” at Toronto, Pensacola and other
places simply cannot be found anywhere in scripture. The leadership of these “revivals” know this
full well – and have stopped for the most part trying to defend them scripturally. Tricia Tillin writes:
John Wimber came from Quakerism. Is this why he has traces of the belief in the supremacy
of the inner revelation over and above the written word? In his book Power Evangelism Wimber
explains: “God uses our experiences to show us more fully what he teaches us in scripture, many
times toppling or altering elements of our theology and world view.” From Testing the Fruit of the
Vineyard, by John Goodwin (former pastor of the Calvary Chapel, San Jose [1990]) who traveled
extensively with John Wimber: “It is a common statement of Wimber’s that ‘God is greater than his
Word’. This means two things. First, that there is an essential truth in extra-biblical sources, and
secondly that the phenomena experienced by attendees of Vineyard seminars and church services do
not need to be validated by scripture. They could, according to Wimber, contradict God’s word and
still be ‘from the Lord.’”
“If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks
for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your
children, how much more will your heavenly father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
(Luke 11:11-13 NKJV)
On the surface this seems to be a valid objection. Jesus clearly promises here that if we seek Him
earnestly for the Holy Spirit we will receive the Holy Spirit, not a counterfeit, not another spirit – a serpent
or a scorpion. So how could these people at North Battleford where this Latter Rain filth started have received a visitation by seducing spirits?
The answer is that they could not – if they were truly seeking God for a valid, Biblical move of His Holy Spirit.
But when you are looking for a “new thing”, a revelation or an experience that’s outside of the
Word of God and the experience of the Apostles then you’re no longer asking for bread.
You’re outside the area in which God’s Spirit moves and into the area where other spirits move – the occult! You’re essentially asking God for a scorpion. If you continue to seek after a scorpion long enough eventually God is going to allow one to come along – and possibly/probably to sting you.
Remember, Jesus said that it’s “an evil and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign”.
Faithfulness to the Word of God is what GOD requires of the truly Born Again believer NOT this harlotry which has become popular amongst the religious people of our generation.
Well said Jack. May God bless you as you honour HIS Word.
Andrew J Horton
The HOLY SPIRIT LEADS US TO HONOUR THE TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD and this genuine Holy Spirit baptism in accordance with the clear teachings of the Word of God is the one which I am happy to testify to.
The teachings of men, inspired by satan and his cohorts, which you seem to be very passionate about MUST be rejected wholeheartedly by ALL who intend to remain faithful to God and humbly submitted to HIS revealed will until the Judgement Day,
I WHOLEHEARTEDLY REJECT THE FALSE BAPTISMS, DEMONIC ANOINTINGS DOCTRINES OF DEMONS AND THE RESULTANT DEMONIC ACTIVITY WHICH YOUR RELIGION IS INTO AND OBVIOUSLY ADVOCATES.
ONLY DEMONIC SPIRITS WILL LEAD TO SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE WORD OF GOD and a false christ which you are obviously representing.
As clearly shown by your persistent refusal to submit to the Word of God in favour of some religious experience of extremely dubious nature which you erroneously and deceptively refer to as the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. By Bible standards this misrepresentation of the true Baptism in the Holy Spirit is in fact blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
This is an extremely dangerous thing to be doing and I urge you to repent of it.
OUR ETERNAL DESTINY DEPENDS UPON WHAT WE DO WITH THE TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD IN OUR LIVES.
HOW WE RESPOND TO UNBIBLICAL ANTIBIBLICAL OR EXTRABIBLICAL SPIRITUAL PHENOMENA REGARDLESS OF WHAT TITLE WE MIGHT CHOOSE TO GIVE IT CAN ONLY RESULT IN ETERNAL DAMNATION.
Gidday Jack (“jack”),
No, I’m not talking about –
“the todd bentley fiasco and the false prophets on the elijahlist. I got envolved with the Toronto catch the fire.” (“jack”)
- any of those manifestations which you mention in your quote above…
I believe all those manifestations to be false, to be satanic counterfeit manifestations and to tickling the flesh (the sinful nature) and doing nothing to remove it’s practical outworking in our lives as believers in our Lord Jesus Christ…
Where is the Baptism of Fire in scripture?
I’ll just give you the key verses you can go to the scripture for context:
SPECIFIC REFERENCES:
“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Matt 3:11 NASB)
“As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Luke 3:16 NASB)
“And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.” (Acts 2:3 NASB)
RELATED REFERENCES:
“I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” (Mark 1:8 NASB)
“for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1:5 NASB)
As I mentioned in one of my previous posts if you’re really interested in “Revival” then two men who it might be good to do an internet search on are Rees Howells and Smith Wigglesworth – both of these men I believe – reading what has been written about them and their personal testimonies – experienced the Baptism of Fire…
What is the Baptism of Fire?
I’m in process, so this might not be a perfect definition, so please bear with me…
I believe that the Baptism of Fire is where the flesh (the sinful nature) is dealt with in the life of the believer so that the Holy Spirit literally lives through the believer, I’m not saying that “sin within me” (Rom 7) will no longer be in me once this process has occured but what I am saying is that what (not what but really who) will live through me will no longer be sin but the Holy Spirit Himself…
The Baptism of Fire is about the removal of all strongholds of the flesh (the sinful nature), all demonic entities (whether inherited from our forefathers or welcomed in during the course of our lives), all bondages to the flesh (the sinful nature), all addictions to the flesh (the sinful nature), all secret sins, all control, all right to make decisions, all right to make plans, all the fear of man, all caring about what man thinks of us, all desire to be accepted by man, all dependence on man, all love for our own lives, all love for anyone else which comes before our love for God, any right to eat when we want to, to drink when we want to, to sleep when we want to, or to do anything else that we want to…
The Baptism of Fire accomplishes complete death to self, death to the self will in the body of a believer, which the scripture talks of in 1 Peter 4,
“Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.” (1 Pet 4:1-2 NASB)
The process towards this is outlined in Romans 12,
“Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.” (Rom 12:1-2 NIV)
In my experience to date the Lord has removed from my any desire to own physical possessions, any desire to own a house, any desire to get a higher paid job, any desire for food (sure I eat but I’m not demanding and I’m not thinking about it), any desire for drink (same as for food), I don’t have any desire for alcohol, I don’t have any desire for drugs, I don’t drink tea or coffee or eat chocolate, I don’t have any desire for sex, I don’t have any desire for money, I nearly don’t care what anyone thinks of me (Wayne’s comments are helping this death!), I’m not holding on to my wife (selfishly), I’m not holding on to my children (selfishly), I’m not holding on to my grandchildren (selfishly), I’m not holding on to my job, I’m not holding on to my life, when I’m not at work I’m always praying (mostly in tongues with English to follow) or searching the scriptures or participating on this forum, I eat and sleep when I have to, I would prefer not to have to sleep or eat or drink at all but to spend 24 hours per day interceding for the establishment of the righteousness of God in His Church and the salvation of all who will believe… that list is not exhaustive but that’s what’s on my heart to share…
I personally believe that Rees Howells and Smith Wigglesworth had been through this to a much greater degree than me proven by the fact that the Lord felt they were ready, i.e. dead enough, to be trusted into the ministry…
I believe that all those in the upper room experienced this on the day of Pentecost – as they had been waiting in prayer…
I believe that the Apostle Paul also experienced it…
Let’s just say that it’s a hunger which the Holy Spirit has been putting on my heart over a number of years of knowing Him for Him to be “All in All” in my heart and for me to be killed, destroyed, removed, taken out of the way so that He can live through me, “This is for My Father’s glory that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples”, I’m not going to say any more right now about this aspect…
I personally don’t believe that anyone is ready to have “hands laid on them” until they have been Baptised in the Holy Spirit and with Fire…
Obviously before the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and with Fire occurs they need to have experienced Repentance, Faith and Water Baptism…
All this is the work of God, through His Holy Spirit working in our hearts and as He gives us the hunger we will begin to seek to be Baptised with His Holy Spirit and with His Holy Fire…
All the best Jack, Andrew
Correction:
“In my experience to date the Lord has removed from me any desire…”
Hi Wayne,
You say above,
“As clearly shown by your persistent refusal to submit to the Word of God in favour of some religious experience of extremely dubious nature which you erroneously and deceptively refer to as the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. By Bible standards this misrepresentation of the true Baptism in the Holy Spirit is in fact blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.” (“Wayne”)
I would be interested to know whether you would hold on to what you’ve said above – which by the way you said without even asking me for any clarification of what my understanding of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and with Fire was – in light of the post (and correction post) which I’ve just made above to “jack”.
By the way, you still haven’t answered my questions as to whether you personally have been Baptised in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues and now that I’ve explained (imperfectly most probably) the Baptism of Fire I’d really be interested to know if you’ve experienced what I relate above with respect to the Baptism of Fire also.
I’ve been very honest and upfront with you Wayne I haven’t hidden anything from you, I’d really like to know whether you’ve experienced the things I speak of or the things which were experienced by the 120 in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, the Apostle Paul, most likely countless of others, Rees Howells and Smith Wigglesworth, etc.
I don’t want to argue with you Wayne and if I receive one more of your “tirade” type responses I will just desist from communicating with you further until I sense your attitude has “calmed down”.
All the best man,
Andrew
Amen, Andrew J, may the Lord grant that you finish your race and reach the goal! To him who has, m