“THE BRIDE Will LEAVE CHRISTENDOM”
-Vision by Wayne Thomas.
The following vision is probably one of the most well-known that has ever come out of my home nation of New Zealand. It is a key vision that has been acknowledged and read around the world. This vision was given to Wayne Thomas late in 1993.
Wayne told me that this particular vision was probably the most
powerful he had seen. It unfolded before his eyes like a movie in
technicolor, with God literally talking to him about aspects of it as
he watched.
VISION of THE BRIDE LEAVING CHRISTENDOM
-Wayne Thomas.
Basically, it was a traditional wedding scene. The radiantly beautiful
Bride had just stepped out of the Cathedral and was standing on the
top step, just outside. Wayne was told that the Bride was LEAVING
‘CHRISTENDOM’ (AND ALL THAT GOES WITH IT) FOREVER, leaving
the ‘church’ system behind. The Groom (who was Jesus) took her arm,
so that He could lead her down and proudly display His beautiful Bride
to all the world.
Still inside the Cathedral were all the relatives (-the various
‘streams’ and denominations of the church as we know it?)
Suddenly, while the Bride was still on the top step, an invisible
hand gave her a beautiful lily (which had been plucked out by the
roots). This was her bridal ‘bouquet’ (an “end-time” enduement?)
and for some reason it seemed to be given to her rather late. She
threw this bouquet backwards, and some of her relatives in the church,
who had been watching her with great jealousy and awe, made a grab
for the bouquet. Two of them seemed to snatch it up, but there was
a lot of squabbling and pushing amongst them – fighting to be somehow
near the Bride or to grab the bouquet. The Groom then led His Bride
down the steps and through the huge crowd of cheering people below,
who had been unable to get into the Cathedral.
In a later vision, Wayne was shown that after they had made their
way through this huge throng, the happy couple were then taken away
on their honeymoon, which was to last for a thousand years.
Wayne later made the following comments about this vision:
“The Lord emphasized these things to me:- That the Bride is so
in love with the Groom – and the fact that she is pure and holy, and
the problems of life are far behind her in this time frame. The crowds
outside see this intimate love between the two, and that no burden in
life stops her from expressing this love. She leaves the guests behind
to squabble over the bouquet, and her desire to share this love with
the crowd outside is very evident.
“The fighting wedding guests are those within the church who in their
hearts are ambitious for titles to impress the body and are caught
up seeking the gifts (bouquet anointings) and not the giver. They are
involved in grand schemes and politics within the church – and they
love ‘comfort’. They are those who get close to the Truth but do not
want to live the truth.
“The Bride – leaving the guests behind – is made up of Christians
seeking truth in Jesus alone, no matter the cost, leaving compromise
behind and seeking Jesus first before the praises of men.”
ANDREW AGAIN: There are some quite shocking implications
to this vision, but it lines up with so much that God has spoken
along similar lines over the years – ie. GREAT REFORMATION – not
just Revival. What are we to make of this – that the BRIDE Will
LEAVE the “CHURCH SYSTEM” AS We KNOW IT – FOREVER??
Does it line up with Scripture? Does it make sense? Is it possible?
The Book of Acts Revival, the Wesley and Whitefield Revivals, the
Cane Ridge Revival, the Early Salvation Army Revivals, and of course
Jesus’ own ministry in the first place – these were all massive
“outdoor” moves of God. Could it be that they are pointing the way
to what we are about to witness in our own generation?
-Please comment on this below-
It lines up with scripture, it makes sense and it has already started to happen.
The building represents the institution of Christianity that is based on human reasoning and corporate rules. It has to comply for its tax exempt status.
The leaders have all received their accreditations from human institutions and have their incomes and reputations to consider. They follow the instructions of the committees and oversights. They have worked their way up the corporate ladders.
The bride is those that follow Jesus and serve God despite what the church requires with the result that they are for the most part not even recognized in the church as being of any great importance to its membership and probably not in submission to its oversight either.
But what needs to be remembered is that it is Jesus himself that collects his bride and he is the only part of this picture that actually matters. Not the degrees in theology or the positions on the corporate ladder or the recognition from men. The bride needs to be recognized by Christ and that is the only qualification that counts.
Amen and Amen.
The false church, the church that the world finds appealing, is the classic anti christ, warned of in the BIBLE, preventing rather than facilitating genuine relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Good day,
When I read the above, what struck me the hardest – - was the Question.
“Does it line up with Scripture?”
Answer…
As far as I can see – - – it does not line up. I see no parallel – - – from either the Bible, or Traditional concepts of eschatology.
Really, Biblepath?
So did the early church meet in Cathedrals, then?
Please show me where.
I have been saying this for years. The traditional thing we call “church”…the “ministers’, “members”, “buildings”, “programs” and such…is not the bride and has never been. It is what man does when given something grand…puts it in a box and builds a political structure around it. The bride…the true church…cannot be contained in a box and will not. She will not remodel the box, or purify the political structures man has built around it. She will simply leave the box.
The body of Christ follows Christ as individual members with a common purpose. It does not organize itself into a corporate system.
I am sure the leaders of the local synagogues of Jesus’s day did not approve of the early Christians either. They did after all send Paul off to the out lying towns with letters of authority to bring all the Christians back for trial and stonings.
That turned out quite well but not for the established leaders of the day. Once again the establishment with the political power will be left out in the cold. Things do not change much, only the names and titles.
New home-church groups are cropping up everywhere as people become more and more disillusioned with the denominational groups. Some are based upon the Word and seek to walk solely in it. They seek after truth and strengthening one another with the Word and worshiping the Lord with honest hearts.
Sadly, most take with them the traditions of men that they have learned in the group they just split from and rebuild, with some minor changes, what they just left. Traditions are just that. The Jews practiced every “jot and tittle” of all the rituals handed down from the time of Moses, yet did not know why they were doing them. The same applies to the new groups. They do things as they have been taught and add to them what seems good to them, not understanding that some of those practices are the foolishness of men and some are even an abomination to the Lord.
If they are truly seeking after the Lord, He will teach them, guide them, show them the way, and establish them by His power and love, that they may be a beacon that draws people to Him.
Beware of exclusivity. None of us has EVERYTHING right. We all need to be listening for His voice and walking in His love and direction, always willing to let HIM lead, avoiding the foolishness of men, and not exalting any man above another.
New home-church groups are cropping up everywhere as people become more and more disillusioned with the denominational groups. Some are based upon the Word and seek to walk solely in it. They seek after truth, and strengthen one another with the Word and worship the Lord with honest hearts.
Sadly, most take with them the traditions of men that they have learned in the group they just split from and rebuild, with some minor changes, what they just left. Traditions are just that. The Jews practiced every “jot and tittle” of all the rituals handed down from the time of Moses, yet did not know why they were doing them. The same applies to the new groups. They do things as they have been taught and add to them what seems good to them, not understanding that some of those practices are the foolishness of men and some are even an abomination to the Lord.
If they are truly seeking after the Lord, He will teach them, guide them, show them the way, and establish them by His power and love, that they may be a beacon that draws people to Him.
Beware of exclusivity. None of us has EVERYTHING right. We all need to be listening for His voice and walking in His love and direction, always willing to let HIM lead, avoiding the foolishness of men, and not exalting any man above another.
This has already happened. The true church has left and the things you are fighting about are many of the same things that many continue to hold on to here even in this forum. Many of your doctrines are the things that hold you captive and you will not let go of them and come up higher to sit with Him in the heavens even now. Many keep speaking about 1000 years like it is 1000 years of actual time. Come up and hear the voice of God. 1000 years is like a day and the day is now and it is in Christ. There is a rement sent to try to turn you all from your ways to the ways of God. But as in the past you are a stiff necked people and so our Father sends a most sharp tool to seperate you from your ways to His. And even after all this you will not let go of the ways of the old Church system. Many have left the building but not the old ways that still keep you blinded to the truth in Christ Jesus. Many of the things most of you have gotten upset with me about things you believe to be truth are what have your eyes blinded. Blinded with hate to keep what you believe to be truth so none will be offened at you and cast you out of their company. Guess what it is fine out here in Christ.
Andrew site is the only church type site i am talking with. I left the church system many years ago and only come here because God has called to sound an alarm. Andrew you started out well and uncovered many un truths being taught but when asked to come up higher you have been wanting brother some of the things God would have you leave behind would offend some that are very close to you. Oh well brother this does not matter to this child. So my brothers and sisters come up and sit in the heavens the view is fine and down in the lower realms it is going to get mighty funky very quickly. Know this I know who I am and what I do there will be nobody after me. So many are like children saying leave us alone we know the way who do you think you are telling us we are children. I know just who I am and who I am sent to and I can tell you when I come the hour is late many shoud have been learning and making them selves ready. There is a rement already sitting in the heavens in Christ and they are going forth in the power of God and most of you will think they are the devil like you have done to me you are really doing to God Himself and thought you were doing Him a favor.
Of course the vision is true. Of course it is scriptural. However, we all need to be very careful that we do not become “holier than thou” believers. If any man thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought.
God still has part of that bride in many places. Nine months ago I heard a word from the Lord that He is going to re-visit denominational churches (to extract a remnant out of the fire).Then I received four different scriptures to confirm that word. Then the Lord provided a real live experience with a highly influential Anglican priest to confirm that word.
Do not think that house churches are the answer. They are not! I was part of a New Testament house church for 12 years back in the late 60′s through 1980. We had every gift and every ministry in operation. Derek Prince came to one of our meetings around 1974. He said he had heard that we were like the he-goats before the flocks (Jeremiah 50:8). He was right. But it totally disintegrated after 13 years. I am aware of some of the reasons. Only the Lord knows all of the reasons.
What the Lord is doing is a hidden work within His remnant. But one day, and probably sooner than we think, He is going to unveil His masterpiece for the world to see.
The Lord is indeed building His church and no man will get the glory.
Many are called but few choose. It is a matter of our choice whether or not we want to be part of the bride.
What an exciting time we live in. The great end time Revival is upon us. Technology is allowing us to become saturated in the Word of God. We can now carry the entire Bible with us in our pocket, all 72 hours of it on audio.
“Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.” Romans 10:17
It is time for the bride to fall in love with her first love again. She will only do this if she has her mind renewed by the washing of the Word.
CDs, DVDs and God’s Word Audio Players™ are readily available in hundreds of languages. Wycliffe Bible Translators has over 274 languages of Bibles in my understanding.
Jesus and the Word are one. In the beginning was the Word. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. To fall deeply in love with the Word is to fall deeply in love with Jesus.
Ask the author of the Word to teach you. Ask the Holy Ghost to reveal His truths to you. You will find the answers to your life in revelation, Rhema Word as you fill your spirit with written, Logos Word.
You are the church. “Know you not that you are the temple of the Holy Ghost?” The Great Whore of Babylon put the church in the building.
Fall in love with Jesus! Bathe in the Word day and night. Saturate your spirit in the Word of God.
I listened to the Word of God all night long for over two months and one evening I reached up and touched my skull on the left side where there was a hole from a mugging in 1968 during the race riots in Washington, DC. To my amazement the hole and ugly scar were gone! God Almighty had healed them, at what day I do not know. His Word works. The Holy Ghost wants you to get to know Him. Ask Him to teach you all about Jesus in God’s Word.
Revival begins in you and your house! Return to your First Love and he, Jesus, will acknowledge you as His bride.
This vision lines up perfectly with scripture. Like one has already siad though, if we take our eyes off of Jesus in it we miss the whole point. If we read this vision and admediately seek to justify our ourself as the bride instead of lookng to Jesus and to see if we realy are the bride, we will miss it.
God has directed us so far from church going ons I have almost forgot what they are like. They seem like something foreign and obtuse. This is not to say I sit enthroned over a brother or sister still in the system because God can have a man in the system for a season and use the sytem for his purposes.
Does God want the system forever? No. It will pass away and all that will be left is what it is real. Relationships, love, goodness, kindness, gentleness, joy, sound judgement, and the like. The bride is making herself ready by the Spirit. I agree that most of these guys we dont know or see. God the father has most of them to himself right now. Even if they are in a crowd of poeple they are barely noticed and rarely acknowledged as one of Gods. This to is fitting as Jesus underwent the same treatment. We will never know who many of these guys are until God reveals them because they wont complain or cry out that they are not noticed. They wont seek to be revealed until the veil is lifted or God calls them to some purpose. They are learning to be quite happy alone with the Lord with out all the going ons of men. Not that they never meet with men or minister, just somehow they are always with Jesus no matter what.
The day of the Lord only reveals what we realy are… nothing more.
Remember, Eve was Adam’s bride. The church is the “body of Christ”, the last Adam, and what this vision speaks of is Eve being taken out of the body of Adam. So, first the natural, then the spiritual.
When we delve into house church concepts, many just see it as another form of “church”. The kingdom of God, through the bride of Christ, is relational and an organism, not an organization. It’s not about us, where we meet, how we meet, but with Whom we meet.
So, the issue is not how we’re doing church, but are we continuing to follow the Lord’s instruction, step by step. There will always be a step that we wrestle with before taking. The Lord always leads us beyond our comfort zone into His realm of purpose and destiny.
Could this shed light on the “great falling away”? If so, then there is part of the Scriptural alignment/agreement right there. Too many of us, myself included, have been experiencing this in recent years to disregard its significance. Reading this blesses me.
Funny when people warn against thinking you have all the truth. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would guide us into exactly that. All truth. Its so true the house Church movement in itself is not where we are ultimately going although I believe it is a part.
People come out of Protestant groups dragging its false foundations with them and thinking they have left Babylon. The Charismatic/Pentecostal move is in its infancy as far as doctrinal purity but be encouraged in this. YHWH is able to do a quick work.
My prayer is for restoration apostles to come forth. Having been around the Charismatic Movement since 1975 I can honestly say I have never seen one yet. Matter of fact although I have seen in others and experienced prophetic gifts myself I dont think I have ever seen (or heard of) a true prophet either.
So sure I agree that the remnant must come out of Christendom but what is that? Is it not the Catholic and Protestant faiths? Yet if one lays their hand upon them even the so called “watchmen” of today cry foul.
Friends it is going to be radical when true ministry arrives on the end time scene.
Dear Mr. Thomas:
A brother by the name of Robert Burnell was given a dream by God which was published in 1980 titled “Escape from Christendom” that can be found at http://www.scripturesongs.net/misc/EscapeFromChristendom.pdf
Your vision and Bro. Burnell’s dream are eerily similar in substance. “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secrets unto his servants the prophets”. (Amos 3:7)
Hello Andrew,
Answer A.
In short – - – - – The Bride – - goes with Christ. (period).
building or no building.
I do not know why you seem to have so much rage against buildings.
Answer
B1. Buildings are no more than location markers. Like 3rd and Main. A place for the Saints to gather.
B2. To me, it is The GATHERING is what is important. Paul writes to the Gathered in Corinth – - – and he details the Spiritual Gifts that are given to the Gathered Assembly. (again, building or no building). Hence, Spiritual gifts are given to the Gathering, or the Gathered Christians. I wonder – - No Gathering – - no Gifts?.
B3. You think the focus on above prophecy – - appears to be against BUILDINGS?
All these comments are good, and I agree with most, I also have been studying the Torah, I know what your going to say that’s the Law, but that is a wrong translation of the word, Torah means instruction, so we have the instructions, the Bible (all of it) is the revelation of Jesus, Holy Spirit brings illumination, the word say’s in Ezek. 36:26 “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you. I will remove your stubborn hearts and give you obedient hearts. 27 I will put my Spirit in you. I will enable you to live by my laws and you will obey my rules.” See He say’s He will do it, The difference in those that follow rituals (Church systems) is that they think that’s what makes them righteous and holy , only Jesus can do that (He in us, us in Him) but the instructions (Torah) still are for today, Covenants didn’t go away they are built upon, so go back to the instructions (Torah), it’s all in there. It’s not as hard as we’re making it.
I realize this scripture may not agree with many. But I believe this is the command today that Jesus is speaking of written in Rev. 18:4-5. If you do agree, you will also understand that you can still be attending some church because of Jesus sending you in there as His help meet for the purpose of bringing others out spiritually into what you are walking in as well. But simply means that you have been made clean, as well as having enough oil to sustain you for whatever you are to do for HIM. Because it is all HIM you are then serving first then period.
But of course, I also see this having been going on as well since the church itself began. As certainly I see the first apostles that laid down their lives for HIM in the beginning as being a part of that bride as well as those that are the bride today, and tomorrow too.
But yes, it is definitely scriptural, and always has been, for that matter for the bride to be made pure and holy. Ephesians also speaks of the bride being without spot or blemish, or any such unholy thing at His coming as well, does it not?
The only building God dwells in is you and the answer is not house church or any building made by man. The answer is Christ in you and all togeather we are the dwelling place of God. Jesus said he had no where to lay His head. He seem to do just fine with out a set meeting place or a set way of doing thigs except for I do what my Father says to do. I believe that means where and how.
The only true church is not visible except if you look in the mirror or are gathered in His name 2 or 3 any where any time we are the church. Man made structures have nothing to do with this.
WOW! I agree with this word and the bride leaving the church system, (lets face it this system can never contain the pure and holy church of the end times). I believe the introduction of INTERFAITH LAWS will force all true believers to leave the church system which under pressure will compromise in order to keep their church buildings open, ie all churches will have to either close or sign up to an Interfaith register in order to get liscences to keep their places of worship. Then all true Christian folllowers of Christ will have to leave their churches and fellowships and meet illegally at grass roots level instead as they do today in China already. We will probably start getting perscuted by then too. I expect this to start within the next 5 years as the end will come like a flood according to scripture, and Jesus like a theif in the night.
YES, THIS VISION DOES LINE UP WITH SCRIPTURE PERFECTLY. GOD, CALLED ME OUT OF THE INSTITUTIONAL CHURCH TEN YEARS AGO, I HAVE NOT BEEN SORRY. IF WE WANT TO REALLY KNOW JESUS WE HAVE TO COME OUTSIDE THE CAMP, SO TO SPEAK. I HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH AT THE FEET OF JESUS, THINGS THAT YOU CANNOT LEARN LISTENING, SEATED IN A PEW. I WOULD NOT CHANGE, SITTING AT HIS FEET, FOR A SEAT IN THE MOST BEAUTIFUL CATHEDRAL IN THE WORLD, WHERE I WOULD COME AWAY EMPTY. TIME IS RUNNING OUT, WHERE WILL YOU BE FOUND? IN A BUILDING SURROUNDED BY FAMILY AND FRIENDS, OR OUTSIDE THE BOX, BEHOLDING JESUS!?!
I retired from 34 years of public school teaching 4 years ago to start a church. I had previously left the church to set up a table at the local flea market on Sunday mornings to share Jesus. I did this for 4 years and loved it. I had a very negative attitude towards pastors and the system. Since 1. becoming a pastor of a storefront church, 2. finding out how difficult it is to get people to really fall in love with Jesus and get up off their xxxxx and be New Testament, and 3. meeting now for 2 years for prayer with a group of other pastors, I have a new and frustrating picture of the church. Although there are pastors and churches just playing the game there are lots of pastors out there desperate for Christianity to blossom in their church. For those, keep praying because they really do want to see Jesus rule and rein in the lives of their people.
I wondered about this from the vision:”the happy couple were then taken away on their honeymoon, which was to last for a thousand years.” I read about a thousand years in Revelation 20:4 “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” If I understand correctly, this period of time is after the great tribulation. When the bride is taken up as described in 1 Thessalonians 4, the marriage of the Lamb takes place and the marriage supper of the Lamb. I understand this time to be seven years, after which Jesus and the saints return on white horses (Rev. 19) to put down evil and set up His earthly kingdom which is to be a 1000 year reign on earth, and then the final battle after satan is loosed for a season and then the eternal ages. So, with this in mind I have a problem with understanding a 1000 year honeymoon.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
To read some of these comments you would think that the church of Jesus Christ was created without structure. I suggest you read the early church fathers like Clement, Polycarp and Ignatius (1st century) – men mentored by the apostles, e.g., John or once removed. What’s clear in the writings of these men is that organization and hierarchical structure were ordained by God. Again, read the writing of these early church bishops – men who were mentored by John the apostle. Google “Apostolic Succession”. The present church is fragmented and the body lacks unity because it fails to submit to leadership and a pattern ordained by God. A great part of the church dismisses the need for unity and submission to a single catholic hierarchy. As a result we have 100,000 varieties of Christianity all doing their own thing with their own set of beliefs. God is a God of pattern and order. Yes, God gave us he Holy Spirit & written word but He also established a pattern (Bishops and Deacons) of leadership to which we are to follow.
Some of the last few words on the Bride of Christ are written in Revelation 21.
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.
This is way beyond even our most complex understandings of what is ‘the bride’ and the church being the Bride of Christ.
I think we need to get back to the drawing board with God and have a real good conversation with him to find out what he really means.
The Greek word for bride is νυμφην it appears 5 times in the 1550 Stephanus NT Greek bible, the 1881 Westcott-Hort Greek NT and the 1894 Scrivener Greek NT.
Two of them are in Revelation 21, and only 1 out of the 5 is a reference that relates to the lamb, and his bride or wife.
The phrase ‘Bride of Christ’ does not even exist in the Greek Bible.
It does not exist in the King James Version.
It does not exist in the NIV.
It does not exist in the ASV.
It does not exist in the Wycliffe NT or many others.
So how can the bride leave the church system?
And where did the idea of the Bride of Christ come from……?
I find it hard for years to find an acceptable church. Always there is something wrong…not a minor thing,
either, but a deal-breaking error in the church.
One church I recently thought of attending again(we had
attended years ago). I drove up to its new address, looked at the ad in the window for a workshop coming up for “seers”. A person signing up will be taught by an itinerant “prophet” how to see visions and prophesy. I had already left this church years ago because they had a woman who stood up almost every
service and gave a vague prophesy; and then she gave a false prophesy about me (has been proven false). I am a strong believer in Bible prophesy and I do think there COULD be real prophesies in these end times, but there is also a false element which Andrew has already commented on.
In other churches, more the “mainline”, I find too much acceptance of “other” creeds and cults which are not
Biblical, syncretizing.
The churches play an important teaching role, teaching the Bible to children and young people and new people, so one can’t just abandon them. It’s not
an easy picture.
THE FOLLOWING FROM MY AVAILABLE SYNOPSIS OF GEORGE BARNA’S 2005 BOOK -
It is no secret that many Christians are going outside the camp, so to speak, for
worship and ministry. By that I mean that they are leaving the churches in order to
pursue a more fulfilling Christian experience. They are rejecting the “one-size-fits-all”
character of many of the churches in the traditional denominations. They are even
rejecting the newer non-denominational churches if they perceive the same pattern of
lack of God’s presence, shortage of lasting spiritual fruit, and lack of opportunities to
minister.
What Christians are seeking outside the camp is a personal intimate
relationship with God, first-hand, not through a pastoral intermediary. They are
seeking a venue that allows them to minister hands-on, rather than to just sit in a
pew and watch the show. They are seeking to minister to both God and man. They are
seeking an opportunity to not just go to church but to be the Church. They are moving
away from reliance on church to reliance on God, alone.
This new Christian behavior has been noticed by that premier statistician of
Christianity, George Barna. He has tasked his professional Barna Group to investigate
it. And, Barna has published the research results in his new book entitled,
Revolution. Their results are based on studying a dozen representative minimovements
having total membership of less than three million and operating outside
the established churches.
The title expresses Barna’s opinion that this new Christian venture is as
revolutionary as those eighteenth and nineteenth century (peculiarly American)
movements, the first and second Great Awakenings. However, Barna believes that this
movement is different in kind from the two “Awakenings.”. Whereas those were
Revivals of the institutional churches, this one is Restoration of the Church. It is
restoring a Church through which the Holy Spirit can work effectively.’
Here is a clue
Galatians 4: 26
But Jerusalem which is above is free. which is the mother of us all. The new Jerusalem from above is not a city like the one on the earth. We are born from above the city comes down from above this does not mean out of the sky. It means in the heavens or in a realm higher then the one most dwell in. That is why Christ has come to bring us up to see heanvely things. Not only are most waiting to see jesus. They can not see that the book of Revelation is about just that the Revelation of Christ in His called out ones. To all others they just see them as things that will happen to them someday as God destroys all their enemys. The sister is right you need to rethink most all you what you believe for most the time is short and they will continue to hang on to this earthly kingdom. Tick tick tick.
Why do we need a vision to tell us what the Bible says?
We won’t accept it as “true” if it is not already in the Bible, and if it is already in the Bible why do we need some extra revelation?
Shouldn’t we just go with what God gave us, instead of looking to something some man said?
(And yes, the institutional church is in apostasy so anyone who does not separate from it is violating “come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and I will receive you”)
As I have read some of the comments, I am encouraged and saddened at the same time. I can see Prophecy being fulfilled in numerous ways here.
At this present moment, I can see this vision coming to pass. I preached the gospel and against homosexuality at a baccalaureate service. This was directed by God and no other.
As a result of this, the three church alliance got together behind my back and now are going to censor all of the pastors. It is no wonder that true Christians, (in which there are fewer than we may even know) are leaving the organized church.
Honestly, all we can do is praise Jesus for prophecy is being fulfilled and we (the bride) will meet Him soon.
Yes, this has been confirmed in my own life and walk with the Lord and many
of those I have heard of scattered throughout the world.
This bride is not the whole church – it is a chosen (elect ) number that God
has sovreignly chosen before the foundation of the world to be His
government in the Kingdom. This is spiritual. Their earthly training in
childish things is over and now God, by His will, takes this remnant out for
His purposes. This is a great honor, but great suffering is involved to be
transformed into the image of Christ. Much loneliness, isolation, trial and
testing that the church as a whole does not have to go through. This Bride
has counted the cost before embarking on the NARROW Kingdom road.
I FEEL CONVINCED THAT FOR THIS MOVE OF GOD’S SPIRIT, WHICH IS THE GREATEST
EVENT NOW DUE ON GOD’S AGENDA, is one in which TRANSFORMATION by His Spirit
is needed. No more revivals or reformations are needed. They have all lasted
temporarily and led to moral collapse and falling away from the true faith.
God loves His church and has cleansed her by His precious blood but that is
not His whole plan.The church is part of the kingdom, but the church only,
is not the Kingdom of God.
God is calling for TRANSFORMATION in this day. He needs Sons of God who can
manifest Christ in them in order to “deliver creation from the bondage of
corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” Rom 8:20,21.
Rom.12:1,2 is the only message which leads to joining the bride of Christ,
as He alone calls them out.
I can see how God is calling and preparing you, Andrew, to leave the church
system behind, and take the Hand of your beloved to lead you forth into a
new walk with Him.
May He give you the Wisdom, Love and Power to overcome! Only though this
ministry of the Sons of God will we be able to minister to the great numbers
that God wants to set free from the bondage of the Harlot system.
Oh how we need the Sons of God to lead us into that freedom of God!
This so blessed me! My husband and I have been out of the church system for a number of years now. I had asked Jesus if this was the church He said He would build and I felt He said no. We exited. It hasn’t been easy being here in the wilderness but we are ready and waiting for what God is going to do. We won’t have to leave the “church” to enter into His church. We have already left. The church needs to hear this. The people need to get ready. The old system is not going to take them through the days that are ahead.
Sherie
Good word sister and one I hope others would hear in this hour.
And you are 100% right about our brother.
I found your mention of the focus on titles interesting, as well as submitting to man’s rules in order to keep your position. I just resigned from a denomination that began to focus on titles more than talk about Christ. i have had other pastors express not knowing what decision to make due to the direction their denomination is taking contrary to scripture. They are in fear of losing their salaries, pensions, and houses, should they take a firm stand for God’s word. They find it hard to understand that we go by faith, with no set salaries or pension plans. We refuse to compromise the word of God, for He has promised to provide. Too many quarel and strive over that which will perish. The word of God is final and forever.
We have truly experienced the all too sad side of ‘church” and its hireling pastors. However God has sent to us the true shephards to minister to our broken hearts! Since leaving the “church” we have experienced the divine hand of the LORD in our lives! WE see his provision for all things material and spiritual! What we left behind cannot compare! It seems to put your eyes squarely on God instead of other things. So many of our worst experiences came at the hands of “Christians” It is true that ” by their fruits ye shall know them” I really believe the article/dream is true! I see many people who have just refused to be part of the organized “church” anymore. Personally I believe such dangerous times are ahead that if you have not learned discernment you will be ill prepared to recognize the dangers ahead! And to act in wisdom. Remember Jesus parable of the virgins with oil? Those who seemed virgins slept…oh they were there right around the wise ones but SLEPT unprepared. Only a few were ready and left behind those who wern’t! Somehow we MUST come aside,get our pirorities right,and decide where we stand..with the BUSINESS of church or Christ himself. I woke up when in my last ladies bible study as leader I was told not to use the Bible exclusively but study the latest Christian popular book out (we are escapees from the JW;s cult hint hint) And the last church (young pastor who kicked anyone out who challenged him) demanding a 20% tithe from a tiny new church starting up! Greed! For heavens sake we will someday judge angels…this should not be hard to figure out! Its time to cleans ourselves from all sin and defilement! Either thru death or deliverance we WILL meet God.
I truly believe we are called to come out from among them!
Amen Andrew! I agree with this completely. I myself have been out of the “organized church system” for over 20 years, and in all honesty since childhood I rebelled against it not fully understanding the reasons then but only aware that spiritually, inwardly I did not feel peace at many of the things I witnessed behind the 4 walls of the building. I could not understand why some members went without basic necessities such as food and clothing, while the “leadership” was seemingly well off, draped in the finest of cloths, eating the finest of food, driving the finest of cars. I could not understand why collections of money were not then redistributed to the poor among them that NONE would suffer lack. I could not understand why no one was willing to go out into the highways and byways and share the love of Christ Jesus with those who are hurting, those bound by drugs, alcohol, prostitution and the like. I could not understand why the beggar that sat at the church doors was looked down upon as being somehow beneath these members of this building when I’ve read since a child that Man was created in God’s image, thus he was no different from me or them. I wondered then as I do now…Where is the Love? So I rebelled, and choose to have bible studies with those who were like minded in homes, parks, wherever we could meet and the Lord moved mighty as we allowed HIM to LEAD! As I began to grow more spiritually, in 1997 I attempted to go back through the doors of an organized church (not the same one I had visited in the past as a child, this was a different one) to share with the members there what the Holy Spirit had been sharing with me these many years. The very first thing I wanted to share was His love, and I walked through those doors confident it would be received, however most every member backed away from a warm embrace. During the service I looked around at as many members as I could see, and I just began to cry, oh how I loved them. They all seem hungry for truth and yet so unwilling to receive. The pastor appeared to be more like a comedian than a teacher, everything he shared had a joke attached to it. The other thing that troubled me that has always been troubling to me was the structuring of the meeting 10 minutes for this 15 minutes for that 30 minutes for this etc. etc. as if they were all on a tight schedule of some sort and I thought if they’d only allow The Holy Spirit to lead they would see great and marvelous things however man still choose to do it his way! After a few months of this foolishness I decided I could no longer sit back in silence so I shared my concerns with the assistant pastor and was told I was ignorant and unlearned, they were all scholars from well known bible colleges and had earned degrees for this and that and they were doing exactly what they were called to do by God and that I should not even attempt to change the “church structure”. My words to him were “Man may license another, but it is GOD who ORDAINS” I made one last attempt and went again one last time and during “worship service” I saw an invalid woman sitting on the steps before the platform weeping and I felt led to go over to her and embrace her and pray for her. She received me warmly however everyone else eyed me as if I were doing something wrong. Then suddenly I began weeping and praying silently in the spirit. I don’t even know how long I lay there crying out to the Lord in the spirit but when I finally arose, all were back in there seats and all eyes were upon me while the pastor made jokes stating “some people don’t know when to quit, it’s time for bible study and we still have one weeping over there and praying, prayer time will be in 45 minutes” everyone laughed as if it were comedy hour. I couldn’t believe me ears. At that moment I simply gathered my things, turned and walked down the aisle out the front door and have never returned since. We, those who’ve come out of the organized church structure, have been gathering in homes, parks, beach, wherever we can meet to studying the word of God under the leadership of The Holy Spirit. I am more disapproving of the “structure WITHIN the building” than I am the building itself. I will never return!
“that the BRIDE Will
LEAVE the “CHURCH SYSTEM” AS We KNOW IT – FOREVER??”
Yes.
I agree with this word completely. This is the same message the Lord has been speaking to me personally, particularly over the last 10 years and it has been building.
Now this message just keeps getting stronger and stronger and I believe there is a reason for it. Because of the season, the “time” we are in.
We are living in the culmination of this “age”. This “age” is coming to an end. The Final crowning achievement of what the Lord has had planned in His heart all along with His church, His called out ones. This was in His heart eons and eons ago.
It’s HIS plan folks. HIS purpose. And HIS accomplishment.
And HE will do it.
Many in His church are missing this right now because they are too caught up with what the enemy is doing, which is instilling FEAR. COMPLETE FAITH in the Holy One is what the Spirit is speaking in this hour.
The Lord wants to COMPLETELY change the face of what we know as “christianity”. It’s NOT about “religion”
It is about a “relationship’ with the Living God and individuals who KNOW their God and have a relationship with Him….
…..these individuals will do and say what they see their Master doing, and they will do exploits because they do not fall for the fear-mongering and lies that the enemy has been working overtime to instill in this hour
The enemy LIES and causes CONFUSION
CONFUSION = “babbeling” Sound familiar? That’s BABYLON.
And God has called us OUT of that CONFUSION of man made BABYLON’S RELIGION and INTO a RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LIVING GOD!
Led by the SPIRIT and not by our own “reasoning”.
It is the work of the Spirit “of” GOD and not “of” man. We can take no credit for it. Absolutely none.
What we can do is to co-operated with the Spirit and not fight against God, doing our own way, our own thing.
Many men have built their OWN kingdoms, thinking they have done a service to God, but God is saying:
“Your own man made kingdoms that you have built are going to come crashing down before your very eyes because you DID NOT BUILD UPON ME!
Therefore I will destroy your man made kingdoms that you have built and they will NEVER rise again because MY KINGDOM built upon ME is what is being built through my vessels who are sold out to Me and MY purposes, and not their own! Watch and see says the Lord! In these coming days, you will see it!”
-so says the Lord
When we work in co-operation with God, you will see miracles, because it is HIS Spirit who is doing the work through His vessels.
If there is a message to those who are listening to what the Spirit is saying right now, it’s this:
GOD HAS NOT GIVEN US A SPIRIT OF FEAR, BUT OF POWER, OF LOVE, AND OF A SOUND MIND.
STAND upon the ROCK and see the Lord accomplish what he said He was going to do from the very beginning.And He will be doing this in these “last days”
Reject all those confusing “voices” that you are hearing that have been sent out to discourage you, and LISTEN to the voice of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit will lead you and guide you into ALL TRUTH and you need never be in fear of what this “world” fears. Hear the word of the Lord!
Thank you so much for sharing this vision with us. As our church closed down, we decided to wait upon God to show us where He would like us to go. About 80% of the church goers started a new similar church, but the rest of us are walking an individual path with our Lord Jesus. The Lord is really raising up His church (bride) all over, free from dogma and religious institutions.
It is interesting to me that in God’s Pattern of the Heavenlies, the Bride is typified within the Church by the Holy Place. There will be a people who go deeper, within the veil of a journey into the awesomeness of Who God is. This people will not necessarily be recognized within the Church, because what they do within the Veil is not seen by the common man or woman who is saved. Remember the Pattern of The Tabernacle. He referred to it as the Pattern within which all true doctrine must fit without stretching.
Yes there will be a people who go beyond, but, will I be one of them???
Whether I will be one of those people depends on my attitudes and my relationship with Jesus, not necessarily on my doctrine or abilities to minister. Giftings do not a member of the Bride make me. My love and relationship to the Head or the Bridegroom do. I need to watch that my attitudes have been purified by the Phil. 4:8 filters and that all that is presented to the rest of the church and the world, has been filtered through those filters.
I apologize for the length of these posts, just one more thing I’d like to share. Below is what I shared with this assistant pastor reference to the church being the “body of Christ” and how every member of this body is necessary for an effective work. (this was done due to the blatant unkindness towards the invalid woman who needed love and prayers) I referenced 1st Cor 12:12-27.
Just as our physical bodies are made up of various parts and members with each part being needful and useful for the functioning of the body as a whole, so is the Body of Christ. We wouldn’t dare cut off one of our physical members say a hand or a foot, and tell the hand or foot “you are useless, I don’t need you” and yet we separate and “cut off” ourselves from parts and members of the Body of Christ daily through our actions, deeds and words and say to those parts, “you are useless, I don’t need you” thus leaving that member injured and bruised, and as our physical body would feel the effects of one injured part, so the same should be for the Body of Christ.
Every part of the physical body is necessary. Without the fingers, it’d be difficult to grasp hold of a pen or pencil. Without toes, it’d be difficult to stand. Without the tongue, one could not speak. Without the eyes or ears, we could neither hear nor smell. Without the functioning of the brain which dictates to all our members, the body would then be considered….dead!
Likewise, every part of the Body of Christ is necessary. We need the Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Evangelists and Teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and the edifying of the body of Christ. And, as every member has been given a spiritual gift or gifts, we need to utilize each and every one for all are necessary to do an effectual work. Those gifts which seem unimportant to most because perhaps they are not often visibly seen, are indeed the most important such as those who quietly go into their prayer closets daily and intercede for the needs of the Children of God. But the most important part of the body is The Head, Christ Jesus who gives instructions to each member accordingly and expresses his will through Spirit and Word what he would have them to do. Should some members become defiant, refusing to cooperate and submit to the instructions from the head, the Body then becomes out of order, dismembered, chaotic with each member doing as he desires thus producing dead works…….The original intent for the functioning of the body then becomes ineffective. But, when each member comes together and begins to function as they were called to do, the body is no longer dismembered and each part working together does an effective work in fulfilling the will of the “Head”. Whenever a member becomes injured, every other part feels the effect of that injury and races to its aid just as we would if one of our physical members were injured.
Several years ago, I injured my toe by hitting it against the edge of some very heavy weights, thus fracturing it. Instantly every member of my body felt the effects of the injury. Without hesitation, the head began to issue out commands to the rest of the body. The first command given was to my vocal cords, which let out a painful cry. (smile). In an act of obedience to the head, every other member began to work together each according to their design, to nurture and sooth this one injured part. The fingers, in cooperation with the hands, which cooperated with the arms, began working together in an effort to reduce the swelling by placing the ice upon the injury. The legs, the feet, the muscles, the ligaments, every part worked together to give aid to this injured toe. No part refused to cooperate by leaving the toe to fend for itself. But, each member saw this small toe as being a significant part of the body, and was much needed to complete it. If left alone, without aid, this injury may slow the process of work down for the body as a whole, and the work may then not be as effective as it would have been had all been working together as one.
Such should be for the body of Christ my dear friend. When one of our members are suffering, injured, bloodied and bruised, we must all race to the aid of this member with the understanding that he/she is a necessary part of the Body of Christ, and much needed to effectively as a whole fulfill the will and instructions given by the “Head”, Jesus Christ our Lord. An arm can’t do the work of a foot, a leg can’t do the work of a hand, and unless given the gift, a prophet can’t do the work of a pastor, a teacher the work of an apostle. But, TOGETHER we can do the work Jesus Christ our Lord commanded of us with each member doing his or her part, yet WORKING TOGETHER EFFECTIVELY AS A WHOLE, and WHATEVER WE DO, DO ALL FOR THE GLOY OF GOD, FOR HE ALONE IS WORTHY OF THE GLORY AND THE PRAISE!
God bless you always,
Wayne’s article was very true to scripture. Jesus said His return would be like (1) days of Noah (2) Sodom and Ghamorrah (3) “will I find any faith on earth? (4) spiritual darkness. I believe we are watching the last moments of the Brides preparation for the wedding. There are no literial 1,000 years of the “honeymoon.” The Greek show the words “thousand” used in Rev. 20 means an undetermined, or unknown amount, i.e. eternity.
If you want to know the truth go to http://WWW.CFCIndia.com Then prepare to die.
I would like to bring to mind what the Holy Spirit is showing me in the Scriptures….
44 “Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as He appointed, instructing Moses to make it according to the pattern that he had seen, 45 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David, 46 who found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built Him a house.
48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
49 ‘ Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the LORD,
Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?’ (Acts 7:44-50 and Isaiah 66:1-2). Isaiah goes on to say…But on this one will I look; on him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word.”
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:19-22)
We are children of FAITH – the offspring of Father Abraham, the father of faith. Didn’t Jesus say to Thomas, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”? It is SO easy for us to become spiritually lazy and start to look at the things we DO and places we GO to encourage our faith, rather than walking in the Spirit, touching lives – both brethren and the unsaved, with the love of God. The Spirit blows where He will and is not held captive behind 4 walls and a certain day of the week. Jesus IS LORD of the Sabbath, and we SHOULD regard every moment of every day as holy and His to command. We no longer are to live by the Law, but by faith. The Pharisees were rebuked by Jesus (not once!) for making people captive to THEIR rules and regulations -a bit like the “church” today. He came to set us free from everything – including religion.
Adam walked and talked with God. He had an intimate RELATIONSHIP with God. Before the Fall. This is what God seeks to have with us. Relationship. It has NOTHING to do with WHERE we meet, but whether He dwells in us and us in Him. Jesus, the night before He died laid out His heart before His Father in prayer. His cry was not, “Save Me Daddy!!!!!!” But for us and Him and His Father to be ONE in SPIRIT. “……Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.” (John 17:11) and went on to pray for US – those who were yet to come, “that they ALL may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they may also be one in Us, THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that You sent me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and THAT THE WORLD MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE SENT ME, and have loved them as You have loved Me. (See John 17:20-23) Our witness to the world is our UNITY and LOVE for one another and for God. How often have we heard the unbelievers scoffing, “Why would you expect me to come to your church when you can even agree amongst yourselves what the ‘truth’ is?” …..nearly 40,000 divisions of the “body” will testify to the facts of their statements.
I know relationships with many believers, disciples of Jesus, around the world. Precious and sweet – without dispute or faction. It is not based on doctrine and foolish arguments, but on God’s love for one another bound together by the Holy Spirit, worshiping Him IN Spirit and in Truth…..encouraging, uplifting each other, weeping and praying for each other, one with each other and one with Him. None of us “belong” to a denomination or faction of the traditional church, but are simply believers, disciples of Jesus Christ, part of the bride – each one with his and her own function in the body, working and loving together as one. This is SO radical to the outside world that they have to stop and ask what it is that causes us to have such a bond together. The LOVE and LIFE of God through Jesus Christ…..”that the love with which You have loved Me may be in them and I in them.” (v.26) Amen.
Jesus must INCREASE, and I must DEcrease! (John 3:30) ……..until He reaches His fullness in ALL things, for His glory!
One thing I don’t understand is why all the assumptions that NOW is the time to leave when in the dream/vision the bride didn’t leave till AFTER the wedding. I wasn’t aware that the marriage between Jesus and his bride had taken place? Have I missed something major here?
It isn’t that the Bride leaves the Church forever, it is that the Bride has long since left the Church and had its Wilderness experience to become without spot, blemish and wrinkle.
I am much more interested to know what has happened to this Wayne Thomas since this 1993. Who is he? Where is he from? What else has God told him in the last 17 years? So many camp at the point of their revelation and stay there, and don’t then move on when the cloud moves. Did he too?
This vision is actually unscriptural. Yes, you may be able to support it with a smattering of texts here and there, but in the tenure – the spirit of Scripture it does not exist. As a matter of fact it disobeys a Scriptural command, “Do not neglect the assembling of yourselves together as the manner of some is, and so much more as you see the day approaching.”
Andrew – Did the early church meet in buildings? Yes, in synagogues everywhere. And when Paul was cast from the synagogue he used a school [I'm sure you will remember the occasion].
Have a look at the messages to the 7 churches, it will answer your questions. In which one of those churches were the people ever called out? None. They were all called to repent, and strengthen what remains.
This vision, and so many of the comments after it are encouraging God’s people to sin, and that is sad.
I feel we are all attacking the “Church”, but without proper guidance or authority. The “Bride” is the Body of Christ, with the emphasis on the term body. The Apostle Paul on occasion described the church as individual believers each one being “separate”.
But like your “body” and mine each member or “cell” is totally separate to perform its function so that it may be of assistance of the other cells that it is in contact with. Each individual cell is a living representative of the whole body, but it is relegate to perform within a specific system that is in itself separate yet totally dependent upon the others to live.
At the moment of conception, in the natural, there is only one cell and within that one cell are all of the physical bodily systems that will ultimately make up the body itself. These systems are:
1. Skeletal
2. Cardiovascular
3. Respiratory
4. Digestive
5. Urinary
6. Muscular
7. Neurological
8. Endocrine
9. Reproductive
10. Integumentary
We need to remember that each individual cell within our body is basically the same, the difference is the function that each is individually destined to perform. If a cell from the digestive system was to be removed and implanted into the heart it could not do the work it was created to do. The body would also see it not as one of its own members, but as a foreign body that needs to be destroyed and I believe that is how we are viewing the “Church” today.
What we fail to see is that within an organization or denomination there may be true believers seeking their place in the body, but who have be caught in the snare of the devil as Paul wrote about in 2nd Timothy 2:24-26. Our obligation is not to destroy them, but to assist them in seeing the truth that hopefully they may recover themselves. Remember every one who is truly born again has a specific function within the body, and without them the body is INCOMPLETE. Before attacking a denomination, organization, or group we need to remember that those individuals may be part of a system within the body.
So if we want to attack we need to ask ourselves which of the ten physical systems we want to destroy or do away with. They are not what’s wrong, it is their traditions and demonic teachings that are keeping the members wrapped in grave clothing.
We must understand who the Bride is:
Before we begin there are some basic precepts that we must understand: If I write a letter to you, it is for you; and if someone else reads it they can learn something from it. However, it does not apply to them. What is addressed to the born again believer is: Romans, 1st and 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians. 2 Timothy 3:16,17 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” The epistles are grouped into two Romans and Ephesians are doctrinal Epistles; they show the believer how to believe rightly. 1st and 2nd Corinthians and Philippians are reproof epistles which is the pointing out of the practical error resulting from wrong believing, and failing to adhere to the revelation in the doctrinal epistles. Galatians and Colossians are correction epistles which correct doctrinal error resulting from wrong practice and failing to adhere to the revelation in the epistles. 1st and 2nd Thessalonians there is no reproof no correction; Thessalonians is the consummation, telling about the return of Christ and the gathering together. There is no possibility of wrong practice here, because Jesus Christ will orchestrate this event. Every other book in the bible is for our learning. Those epistles above are strictly addressed to us.
We know that the Law was given to Moses and was meant for the children of Israel, read Exodus 34. The children of Israel, is referred to as the people of God and the servants of God. The Holy Spirit was placed upon them, upon condition and only holy men of God had it, and that spirit could be removed by transgression, look at Psalm 51:11 “Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.” In contrast sons of God have this promise and it irrevocable because what was accomplished by and through Christ Jesus, Romans 11:29 “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” Which means God will never repent of it. It is ours.
It is most Prudent to know who Christ was ordained to go by God, while here upon the earth. It also is good to understand the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God has no beginning and no ending. The Kingdom of God spans all existence. However, under all this expansive Kingdom of God are several periods, one of which is the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven period is for the called-out of Israel, the church of Israel, which is the bride of Christ. Each time the Kingdom of Heaven is referred to, the personal presence of the King Himself upon earth is designated.
We will back track a little bit, starting with John the Baptist, Isaiah 40:3 “The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.” Matthew 3:1-3 “In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.” The kingdom of heaven is at hand, and with the kingdom of heaven there had to be the King, who is Jesus. Matthew 3:11, 13 “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoe I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire. The cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.”
Now, God had said, to be written in Matthew 2:6 “And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. Jesus had told the woman from Canaan, who he had come for: Matthew 15:24 “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” That was to whom Jesus was sent to; but as we will see we benefited, because they rejected the Messiah. Nevertheless, when Jesus referred to Himself as the bridegroom and it was the house of Israel as the bride. That’s who his message was for. But what happened to the Bridegroom? He was nailed to the cross. When the King of the Kingdom was crucified, the church as the bride was interrupted because the Bridegroom was dead. God promised that there would be no end to the Kingdom of Heaven, but man killed the King. Luke 1:33 “And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” What happened to God’s promise? God promised when the King came He would build the church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. But when the King was crucified, the Bridegroom was dead, and it appeared that the Kingdom had been defeated. However, this is not so, for the church of the bride is yet to be fulfilled in the future. The same church referred to in Revelation is again the church of the bride, just as it was in the Gospels. It has nothing to do with our administration, which is the Grace administration which we are the church of the body, with Jesus Christ as the head. Read with your bible about the Bride and the Bridegroom, it is spoken of in Isaiah 61:3-11; Isaiah 62:1-7; Mark 2:18-20 “And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not? And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bride-chamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.” John 3:29 “He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.” From what you have read in Isaiah about those that mourn in Zion, and the other scriptures is talking about the bride as the children of Israel. Contrariwise, we are God’s sons.
The children of Israel during the time before the day of Pentecost who died and did walk according to the law, will be resurrected in the resurrection of the just (in the Book of Revelation), and all the unbelievers during that time and those Judeans who did not walk according to the Law will be resurrected in the resurrection of the unjust. Now those children of Israel (Judeans) who have been resurrected in the resurrection of the just will inherit the earth; Look at Psalm 25:13 “His soul shall dwell at ease, and his seed shall inherit the earth.” Psalm 37:9, 11, 22, 29, 34 “For the evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever. Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.” Psalm 69:36 “The seed also of his servants shall inherit it: and they that love his name shall dwell therein.” The children of Israel will inherit the earth during their time after their resurrection forever. Listen to what Jesus said to one of the malefactors: Originally in the texts there were no punctuations, chapter separations or verses. They are devoid of any authority and a punctuation put into a wrong position can alter its meaning. In this verse, of Luke 23:43, the comma was placed after thee; which theoretically, changed its whole meaning. However, with the comma placed after the word today it fits with the accuracy the word of God intended. Luke 23:43 “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.” Jesus told that malefactor; I say unto you today (this day) thou shalt be with me in paradise. Interesting because, Jesus had to spend three days and three nights in the grave, before God raised him (Jesus) up. That malefactor did not get raised up, he will not get raised until the resurrection of the just, and the word paradise always refers to a place on earth not heaven. Besides Jesus could not give a place in heaven, why because it was not available yet. Hypothetically speaking; fifty years ago I could not have given you a laptop computer, because it was not yet available; however, today I can. Why because it is available. Jesus told that malefactor of something that will be in the future. The day of Pentecost had to come; whereby a person can be saved, and become a son of God, be filled with the holy spirit, get the new nature, have Christ in us which also is God in Christ, Christ in us. We became a new man Galatians 6:15 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.” We are a new creation unlike the world has ever seen. Colossians 3:10,11 “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.” 1 John 3:2 “Beloved now are we the sons of God, and it doth not appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him: for we shall see him as he is.”
Jesus obeyed and taught all things of the law Matthew 19:16-19 “And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou will enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” He taught them to live according to the law, not all of their traditions, and the commandments and doctrines of men, of which they were doing in secrecy. Jesus Christ became the end of the law, at the day of Pentecost, because it was all finished and the Holy Spirit is within us, not upon us as it were of certain holy men of God before the day of Pentecost.
It further shows that Jesus when he sent out the 12 Apostles in Matthew 10 – 11:1 I will quote only Matthew 10:5,6,7 “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” And in Luke he appointed seventy to go, as he had done with the twelve Apostles. Luke 10:1-17 However, I will quote verse 1: “After these things the Lord appointed seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.” And Jesus would only go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
But in the meantime, while the Bridegroom is gone, a different arrangement has been made. Ephesians 1:23 “Which (the church) is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.” While the Bridegroom is absent, the members of the church make up the body of Christ. In this church of the body (of which, we belong), there is only one head and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. Finally, years later, the revelation to explain the gift that came on the day Pentecost was given to the Apostle Paul, and also the revelation of the greatest mystery the world has ever known; the mystery of the body of Christ, which is his church. To discover when the mystery was revealed to Paul is in Romans 16 and Ephesians 3.
Romans 16:25,26 “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.” Ephesians 3:2-6 “If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given to me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words. Whereby when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be heirs of God, fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”
It was no mystery that the Gentiles would be blessed in Abraham’s and David’s ministries and during Israel’s reign. Examples of the Gentiles being blessed are scattered throughout the Old Testament. But the Old Testament does not give the slightest inkling that the Gentiles would ever be fellowheirs or joint-heirs, of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.
Ephesians 3:9 “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.” The revealing of the mystery is set out in Colossians and in Corinthians. Colossians 1:26,27 “Even the mystery which had been hid from ages and generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 1 Corinthians 2:7,8 “But we speak the speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would have never crucified the Lord of glory.” The princes of this world is Satan and his devil spirits. Why because instead of dealing with one Christ, every born again believer has Christ in them, with the potential to walk as Christ has walked, and we can lead others into the new birth. Bingo!!
In closing we know that the children of Israel can only inherit the earth and have eternal life, and that they are servants of God. We on the other hand are sons of God, who have the spirit in us, we are joint-heirs with Christ and share fully, we are gathered together to meet the Lord in the air; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of our Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” My goodness we will meet the Lord in the air, go up to heaven, receive our rewards, when Christ comes back down to the earth we will be with him. We will judge the unbelievers, the angels that were cast down with Satan. We have such a magnificent inheritance that is grander than anything that was beforehand.
In his love,
Keith
The way I see it GOD is sovereign in all things, therefore what is established is GOD ordained, including the Church, in all it’s faults and wrinkles, which will be either ironed out or removed in HIS time, not ours.
It is our place to love one another as HE loves us.
Our training ground is not in running from the persecution or the indifference of those who aren’t commited to the call , but to overcome the luke warmness of the LAODACIAN Church.
HE WHO OVERCOMES will recieve his reward.
I received from the LORD a word regarding the BRIDE earlier this year, it was that HE (GOD ) is preparing the BRIDE for HIS SON for the wedding feast.
In this WORD he showed in the REVELATION of JESUS to John, the Bride, which is the Body of CHRIST is adorned and ready for the Groom, set apart for this feast.
She is pregnant and gives birth to a SON who is emmediately taken to the LORD and the BRIDE is taken into the wilderness where she is protected by GOD for 3.5 years.
The great dragon (satan) has no control over these two for they are pure in the eyes of GOD, but he,satan, is given power over the remnant of the Church and overcomes them, these are they who have not taken the mark of the beast.
The question is, to which part do you or I belong.
In the parable that JESUS gave regarding the wheat and the tares JESUS instructed that the workers should not pull the tares out in case they remove some of the wheat as well but to wait until the great harvest when the MASTER will separate them himself.
all our works will be tested as to wether they are silver , gold , wood ,hay or stubble and they will be tested as by fire.
It is not for us to separate and bring division in the Church that JESUS Himself is building but to strive for unity in the BODY of CHRIST. and to Love one another as HE loves us and gave himself for us.
I beleive that his testing by fire is happening now and will intensify as the age of all ages draws nearer.
Those who are taken up as the man child are those who have counted the cost and given their lives to JESUS in complete surrender, these are those who have become bond slaves to JESUS, these are those who have said “i am not my own ,but have been brought with a price and that cost was JESUS Himself therefore I am not my own”.
Those who are the BRIDE, who,although, are pure and have kept the commandments of GOD have lacked that real surrender which comes from a true and loving relationship with JESUS.
Those who are overcome by the beast are those who have followed the teachings of JESUS, but only as far as they have allowed Him, but have retained there own will to do as they have desired.
Can we judge on this matter, definitely not, for it is the SPIRIT of GOD that discerns the heart of man and only HE knows where each of us stands in our relationship with HIM in who we have to be accounted to.
Again, it is up to each of individually to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, for our GOD is a consuming fire, and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the LIVING GOD.
Reminds me of the vision/illustration Lynette Woods had in 2002 about a very similar thing concerning the church. http://www.unveiling.org/Articles/sun.htm
Another interesting article about the church is also found there. http://www.unveiling.org/Articles/church.html
All what we have called “christendom” all of the denominations, have been the ONE WORLD RELIGION that most people are afraid is coming in the future.
It has ALWAYS been here since Cain.
The falling away, the Synagogue of Satan, has been with us since Cain.
People striving to approach God their own way; false worship; false sacrifices. A counterfeit of God’s Kingdom, people, and ways, running PARALLEL with the Kingdom of God ever since Cain.
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Bob Padgett; Jason; 4Jesus; Edwin
God bless you for speaking the truth He has given you. Fight the good fight of faith.
Dr. Hurst…A mighty truth has been given you….enter into the Holy of Holies and you will be an overcomer.
The Church is a “Grand Old Mansion” and God’s judgement is about to begin…
Every once in awhile the Lord visits me in my sleep.
my dream:
There was this grand old mansion that had seven floors. I was made to reside in this place, to live there. This grand old house was in disrepair and falling apart everywhere. As I visited all the floors in this house, and visited the different rooms, it had occurred to me that this place must have been very, very beautiful to behold at one time…but it was dirty now, and falling apart.
People were living in various parts of this falling down rickety old house, but the Lord directed a certain of them to a certain wing in which they would be safe from the falling in parts of this house.
I myself am a carpenter and a Construction Engineering Technologist (diploma) in real life. In the dream I got to go and visit the various places where people had attempted repairs to this grand old structure.
It seemed that there was an extensive amount of repairing going on, but those doing the repairing of this building were not skilled enough to do the massive amount of structural and building envelope repairs needed…and these repairs they did were about to collapse in on them (The Lord says: except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.).
The Lord impressed upon me that if I dwell in this house where He instructs me to, that I will be safe from the coming collapse. ( I assume the Lord is about to do a work)
This building was a grand structure in its beginning, bigger and more beautiful than any that had been built to that day, and it is about to undergo some major changes, so that its latter end will be greater than its beginning.
…from the REMNANTS OF THE RUINS it shall rise, more beautiful and with such a glorious splendor that words can only merely describe but not articulate it to its depth of what it shall become.
Most of this grand old building is about to be demolished and collapsed in on itself except the core part (remnant) of which I told you about, that if I dwell there I will be safe; for all that can be shaken will be shaken when the wrecking ball begins.
And so it begins.
I believe this work where the Lord said: “I WILL DO A NEW THING” is: He is about to rebuild his church (the body of Christ) from the ground up…from the remnants of the ruins which must come first. (great falling away?)
Events on Earth are soon to take place that are going to cause the Bride to finally come together, and it will be the Lord’s doing that does it. Denominational barriers are going to come crashing down as Christians begin to find common ground and begin to pull together in a global revival…
To some, men’s hearts will fail them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
In the midst of the coming global chaos and tribulation, there will be a revival and a move of the Spirit of God, such as has not been seen to this day, no not even in the beginning…for God shall pour out of His Holy Spirit upon the Body of Christ to strengthen and purify/beautify the Bride of the Lamb…that she may be pure and holy – and without spot or blemish, or any such thing, and her gown shall be as white as snow…many will turn to the Lord during this time in a global revival.
The Lord Jesus is going to send skilled labor into the field…His carpenters and engineers etc., of which He Himself is the Chief building engineer. This structure that is going to go up will be built according to His specifications and design, and no one will be allowed to deviate with their own ideas and repairs, but will follow only His design. The glory of the latter end of this house will be greater than the former.
…it’s coming.
(a prophecy concerning the time before us, about the last revival – about the rebuilding of the house of God – the church of God – who is the Bride of the Lamb – for the Bride will make herself ready)
For thus says the LORD of hosts, Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land.
“I will shake all the nations; and they will come with the wealth of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the LORD of hosts.
‘The silver is Mine and the gold is Mine,’ declares the LORD of hosts.
‘The latter glory of this house will be greater than the former,’ says the LORD of hosts, ‘and in this place I will give peace,’ declares the LORD of hosts.” Haggai 2:6-9
I believe the time for this vision to come to pass is even at the door. There is a remnant, whom God is calling out into the wilderness, whom He has chosen and set apart for this time that is before us. There will be a great falling away from God, of all of humanity (Adam’s race)which includes some of the fractured parts of that which is also known as the church.
I do not believe that the R/C church is in the way of the Lord at all, and neither is most of what is known as established denominations, Protestant, evangelical or otherwise.
The collapse of the Grand Old Mansion is imminent, the judgement has gone out, because of what man in his vanity has done to it. They have turned intimate relationship with the Father into empty dead lifeless religion, and the Lord will collapse this old house now (except for the core part or remnant)and will rebuild His Church from the remnants of the ruins from the ground up. This occurs during the time of the Great Tribulation which we must go through as a body…
During the time of unprecedented persecution against Christians, and in the midst of all the global chaos (Great Tribulation), there will be a revival and a move of the Spirit of God, …such as has not been seen to this day, no not even in the beginning…for God shall pour out of His Holy Spirit upon the Body of Christ …to strengthen and purify/beautify the Bride of the Lamb, that she may be pure and holy – and without spot or blemish, or any such thing…and her gown shall be as white as snow….many will turn to the Lord during this time in a global revival which is the rebuilding of the “Grand Old Mansion” of which it is also written:
The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,’ says the LORD of hosts. ‘And in this place I will give peace,’ says the LORD of hosts.” Haggai 2:9
Please forgive my message it should read die to yourself!
http://www.CFCindia.com
Just last week I was talking with a good friend and I mentioned how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and quite a few others had this incredible relationship with God but never attended “church” or “temple.” I think the bride is looking forward to the marriage and the “church” is stuck on the “wedding.”
I will say AMEN to Earendel, and it is at the door, in fact I can almost see the KING on HIS white horse ready to enter the scene.
@biblepath – Spurgeon makes the distinction ….
(Matthew 7:23) “I never knew you”
They cast out devils; but, at the same time, they did not themselves escape from the power of the devil by giving up sin, and following after righteousness. They failed in the matter of practical holiness. They had not the grace of God in their souls, displaying itself in their ordinary, everyday actions. They could talk; they could sing; they could prophesy; but they were not obedient to the divine commands, and they did not walk in the ways of God.
Philippians 2:12 (King James Version)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
When I first got baptized in the Holy Spirit many years ago and lived continually in the presence of God I could not understand why the leaders and other church goes in the rather large penticostal church I attended seemed rather unexcited “lukewarm” about Jesus and living in his presence.
Most churches and denominations today just go through the motions.
All will ultimately get swallowed up into the universal religion that embraces and tolerates all faiths.
Have you heard the story of the person who died in church. An ambulance was called and they took out three people on stretchers before they found the right person.
It is up to you as an individual to work and sustain your own salvation and spiritual life by getting into your closet of prayer and letting Jesus and his presence into your life.
If you rely only on going to a church building each Sunday your going to become either lukewarm, dead, or hurt if you are really hungry for more of God.
Hey, by the way…what are you doing here blogging away? It’s Sunday. Get off to that building now!
I believe that this vision is prophetic and has already begun. Church as we see today is not biblical and the Lord told me several years ago that He would not allow His people to believe that it is his design…
Also, please read below…
The Meaning of “Synagogue”…
Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. ~~ John 8:32
“Synagogue” appears often in the Greek New Testament. It is not a Hebrew word; not a Yiddish, nor a Jewish word. It is a Greek word. It is #4864 in Strong’s Greek Concordance – pronounced syn-a-go-gay. It simply means “an assembly” or “a place of assembly.”
Now, please notice that the modern use of this word has evolved into a Jewish religious term. It has become a Jewish assembly – exclusively. However, during the writing of the Greek New Testament, it was just an assembly – any assembly. At that time, “synagogue” could have referred to a Jewish assembly, or any other kind of assembly – religious or otherwise.
Synagogues, today, have turned religious. They are the Jewish prototypes of the churches. The modern churches are spin-offs of the Jewish synagogues.
The point is this: the first-century “kuriakos” were called “synagogues.” The disciples of Christ abandoned the synagogues (i.e., the Jewish churches) … leaving them to the Jews.
But, by the 4th century, apostate religionists were starting to form a new organization patterned after the old synagogue. However, they could not call it “synagogue” because that name had been retained by the Jewish religious establishments. And the word “ecclesia” wouldn’t work for them because that referred to Christ’s kingdom and is opposed to religious houses and organizations. So, instead, they called them “kuriakos” (churches). These were designed to usurp the place of the ecclesias (Christian civil bodies) which had been growing since Christ’s ascension to the throne.
With the help of the synagogues and the churches (sister organizations), the state (i.e., the beast) began waging battle against the ecclesias (outposts of Christ’s kingdom on earth).
13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (New Jerusalem) which brought forth the man child (ecclesia).
17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
~ Revelation 12: 13 & 17
Now, you can understand, the tie in between the “synagogue” and the “church.” Organizationally, they are based on the same serpent principles of ignorance, superstition and slavery.
Christians left the synagogues (later also called churches). The disciples of Christ found that the synagogues/churches were not Christian in nature. It was not their mission to build churches and synagogues. The New Testament Christians escaped from the heathen religion concept of church organization. They went out into the world and they established “ecclesias” (Christian communities of Christ’s reign).
The churches (synagogues) never were on the right track. They still aren’t today. They have the same bureaucratic structure as central government. Central government structure promotes conformityand blind obedience to the rulers, whether they be priests or bureaucrats. For this reason, the first-century Christians left the synagogues/churches.
http://www.infoaxis.org/infoaxis
Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. ~~ John 8:32
Due to carefully crafted doctrines being taught to us by institutionalized religion, the modern-day Christian is faced with almost insurmountable odds when trying to determine the fact from the fiction. One area that has suffered tremendously has been the definition of the word “Church” when read in the scriptures.
Questions and Answers
Brief Word Study On Church Vs. Ecclesia
Q: From where do we get the word “church”?
A: To answer this we must go to an etymological dictionary (i.e., a dictionary that traces words back to their origins) … such as the Oxford English Dictionary (which includes etymological entries at the beginning of each definition), or we can use a dedicated etymological dictionary like A: Concise Etymological Dictionary Of The English Language, by Walter W. Skeat. These books can be found in a public library, and are actually interesting and fun. There is, also, an online etymological dictionary:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=church&searchmode=none.
The word “church” hails back to the Scottish “kirk,” which came from the Old English “chirche” (pronounced keer-chey), which in turn came from the Greek “kuriakon” or “kuriakos.” Anyone can quickly research this. It is beyond dispute.
Q: Since all these forms of “church” seems to come from the Greek word “kuriakos,” can you define it?
A: “Kuriakos” is a form of the Greek “kurios.” “Kurios” means “lord” or “master. Therefore, “kuriakos” means, literally, “pertaining to the lord,” or “the lord’s.” It means anything pertaining to or belonging to any lord or any master … a common term of the day. Other forms of the word found in the New Testament are: kuria: a female of authority; kuriotase: lordship; authority; kuros: confirmation, ratification; and the verb ekurieuo: to exercise authority over.
Q: Is the Greek word “kuriakos” in the Bible?
A: Yes, but it is never translated “church” in any English translation. For example, “kuriakos” appears in 1 Cor. 11:20 KJV as “the Lord’s” – referring to a meal. Also, in Rev. 1:10 KJV as “the Lord’s” – referring to a day. These two are the only occurrences of “kuriakos” in the New Testament. In both instances the KJV translators chose not to translate it “church” … for obvious reasons. If they had, I Cor. 11:20 would have read, “the church supper,” and Rev. 1:10 would have read, “the church day.” One must wonder, however, how the churches get around this inconsistent use of the word.
Q: My English Bible has the word “church” many places in the New Testament. What is the Greek word they used for “church”?
A: The King James Version translators replaced the Greek “ecclesia” (which appears many times in the New Testament) with “church.” Thus, the word “church” appears many times in the King James Version.
Q: Is “church” an acceptable translation of the Greek “ecclesia”?
A: No. “Church” comes from “kuriakos,” not “ecclesia.”
Q: What is the correct definition of “ecclesia”?
A: “Ecclesia” is correctly translated as “the called-out ones” … literally “the called-out.”
Q: Why did the KJV translators elect to use “church” instead of “ecclesia” or “the called-out”?
A: The King James Translation was printed in 1611, long after the institution of “church” was known and popularized in the Roman and Celtic world. The form of the modern “church” was adopted after 300 AD by Roman Emperor Constantine the Great who declared it the state-sanctioned form of worship for Christians. By doing this he took control of religion by incorporating it into the state. By declaring it a state religion, Constantine was able to reorganize it, control it, and use it for his own political purposes. In essence, Constantine invented the “church” as we know it. Although “church” became the accepted word and form for organized religion, the actual word in the Bible remained “ecclesia” for a long time afterwards. Before Constantine, Christians had no centralized organization, no official buildings, no priests, no professional preachers. The body of Christ was living within “ecclesias” – groups of believers here and there.
The use of the term “church” in the English Bibles to replace “ecclesia” came from the Pagan Celts and Europeans. But the church form of organization and worship was distinctly Roman, and still is. Many Christians continued long after Constantine to call their assemblies “ecclesias” rather than “church.” Some continue even to this day. In Tyndale’s groundbreaking translation of the New Testament, in the 1500′s, he chose to translate “ecclesia” as “congregation” rather than “church” – undoubtedly an effort to distance himself from the Roman influence inside the Church of England. For the crime of translating the New Testament into English, Tyndale was eventually burned at the stake by the Church of England.
The Church of England eventually allowed the Bible to be printed in English, but only if it was translated by state-sanctioned translators. The Roman-leaning King James authorized his new translation in 1611 (done by hand-picked, church hirelings) which continued the tradition of state-controlled religion, and the word “church” had supplanted the actual word “ecclesia.” Since that time the west has increasingly accepted the word “church” to replace “ecclesia” … even to the extent of going back and retrofitting “church” into many older texts (both religious and secular) where “ekklesia” had previously been transliterated into English as “ecclesia.”
Q: Is it important for a Christian to know the difference between “church” and “ecclesia”?
A: Yes! As you can see, the two words do not mean the same thing, nor do they come from similar origins. “Ecclesia” is a Bible concept. “Church” is a state concept that evolved out of the Roman world of Constantine. If the words God used in the sacred text of the Holy Bible are important, then we must respect them and translate them as accurately as possible. The implications are huge. If a “church” claims to teach truth, shouldn’t its teachers and scholars understand the basic definitions of the most common Bible words? If these teachers have not researched even the most basic milk of the word, and if they don’t understand that words from the Bible are preferred over words from the Roman State, then how many other errors might they be wrong about?
The King James Version, is not THE BIBLE. Rather it is A VERSION of the Bible. Look at the title page of the book. It tells you it is a VERSION. Versions … even ones that are done with sincerity … are capable of error. The King James Version was a state-created and state-authorized book. Christians are foolish if they trust a Roman emperor or a British monarch to handle the word of God fairly and without bias.
(This research is easily accomplished by anyone with a little curiosity, access to an English Bible, a Greek interlinear, a Greek Analytical Lexicon, the Englishman’s Greek Concordance, and an etymological dictionary of the English language.
I can’t over emphasize the importance of word studies. Learn the skill of researching word origins and comparing Greek Bible words with English words, and you’ll not only be happy for it, you’ll increase your confidence in the Word 10 fold.
http://www.infoaxis.org/
I had a strange encounter a few years ago, I was reading the holy bible and I heard a loud voice say “babylon come out her”
I did not understand what it meant….but i heard it in my mind as if someone yelled it out!! if anyone has an idea please let me know…
shalom – as I read your post, my first impression was one of two things:
1. Rev.18:2-5 where God is calling His people to ‘come out of Babylon’
2. If you are female..? God calling Babylon out of you
My advice is to go before the Lord and ask Him for revelation and confirmation… :-)
With love, in Jesus,
Roger
Prophetess Ashanti, great stuff!
The link you provided http://www.infoaxis.org doesn’t work, do you have another?
Keep up the great work :-D
Hi Shalom
I hope you find this useful and you might like to read my comments on the thread The Goddess Kundalini.
I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. . . And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH”
(Rev.17:3-5).
Babylon the place and its religion including the worship of Baal had its origins with Nimrod and Semeramis known as the Queen of Heaven!
All the practices of all the worlds religions can be traced back to Semeramus of Babylon.
For detailed confirmation of this please visit the following site.
http://www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/Books/semi.html
Thats Semiramis
Hi Shalom, I believe that the tranlation of the Hebrew into the Greek into the English bible has missed many important truths. There is much proof that the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew, then translated into Greek. Yahshua (Jesus) was a Jew, and Paul and most of the Disciples. We would do well to understand from a Hebraic mindset, rather than a Greco/Roman mindset. The word needs to be put back into the context of the day. Babylon does indeed need to come out of the very written word of God.
Here is an example….Do you know why Yahshua (Jesus) spit in the dirt to make clay and rub it in the blind mans eyes to heal him on the sabbath? He wasnt profaning Torah as no where in Gods Torah does it say you cant spit in dirt and make clay on the sabbath. However in the Talmud (the book of man made added laws the pharisees used) it does say it is forbidden to spit in dirt and make clay.
If we understand the scriptures from a Hebraic perspective, we see and understand in a much deeper way. Babylon needs to get out of our translations of the Word. Get back to the roots of the word and cling to it.
This is the translation for the word church.
G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see’-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): – assembly, church.
Happy Trails:
” All what we have called “christendom” all of the denominations, have been the ONE WORLD RELIGION that most people are afraid is coming in the future.
It has ALWAYS been here since Cain.
The falling away, the Synagogue of Satan, has been with us since Cain.
People striving to approach God their own way; false worship; false sacrifices. A counterfeit of God’s Kingdom, people, and ways, running PARALLEL with the Kingdom of God ever since Cain. ”
—————————–
Thanks Happy, that was revelation to me!
I read a book, I don’t remember the title, of a teaching that originated in S. America, talking about how the church will come to a divide, much like this vision expresses. There will be two churches. One alive with Christ and found upon truth and purity like Samuel was in truly keeping to God’s tenants. The other like the two brothers Hophni and Phinehas, also raised by Eli, but given to doing things their own way. God let the structure run by the brothers carry on, but His presence was not there. He prospered Samuel.
This also reminds me of the day when God called St. Francis to rebuild his church. Initially he sought brick and mortar, but he realized it wasn’t the structure so much as the hearts of the men & women, the living bricks, that God was calling Him to realign into His body, the church.
The BIBLE makes NO mention of hierarchy within the Body of Christ it refers to different Gifts and each one contributing to the Body in their own way.
The Body of Christ is subject to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and HIS teaching as provided for us in HIS WORD THE BIBLE.
FALSE TEACHERS USURP THE ROLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BY CLAIMING SPECIAL REVELATIONS WHICH SERVE TO LEAD PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD.
Anyone who demands that they cannot be questioned or challenged in accordance with the scripture
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
is a false teacher and MUST be avoided by all who will be saved.
Theological perversions such as church political structures and hierarchies which create a carnal pecking order mentality, Popery and any notion of “blind allegiance to anointed ones,” which is popular in the harlot church system is anti biblical and MUST be rejected by those who know Jesus Christ personally as their Lord and Saviour.
ALL truly born again bible believing christians are equal in the sight of God but different in terms of their particular gifting.
Gift distinctions
Trying to distinguish one Spiritual gift from another or one Category of Gifts from another is not an easy task. In trying to make these distinctions, one must bear in mind that Paul uses the same Greek word (charismata) to describe them all.
So one has to ask whether he meant them to be differentiated in this way. The Scriptures do, however, help us sort these out.
In I Cor. 12:4-6, Eph. 4:12-13, and Rom. 12:1-6 each Category of Gifts has a different number of Spiritual gifts that is bestowed by a different Person of the Trinity.
The Corinthians category has the distinction of being Gifts as opposed to Administrations and Operations (verses 4-6). Verse 7, however, identifies and clarifies them precisely as manifestations that are available to all in the Body of Christ without reservation and at the will of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit Himself chooses one person or another to exhibit a particular Gift for the profit of all. One may be given the Gift of Healing because of a hospital visit that day, while the following day he may be given the Gift of Prophecy in order to communicate God’s will and love to a local congregation. These Gifts are understood to be manifestations given at the time of need for the purpose at hand. Each individual believer, if open and willing to be used by the Holy Spirit, will eventually be used at the discretion of the Holy Spirit.
The Ephesians category is somewhat different in its application and its nature. The Gifts of this category are identified as Gifts given by the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to the Body of Christ. Verse 8 implies that these Gifts are part of the benefits of the resurrection which are directly associated with the works of the Son of God. Verses 12 and 13 state that they are given for the Body of Christ and its edification. I Cor. 12:5 tells us that the Gifts are Gifts of Administrations. They can be termed administrative or ministry positions within the Body of Christ that are instituted by the Lord Jesus Christ by a particular calling. This view is supported by Rom. 11:29, which says “The Gifts and Callings of the LORD are without repentance.” Jesus Christ, the Son of God, therefore calls individuals to take on administrative positions or roles (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers) within the Body of Christ for the edification of all.
The Romans category lists Spiritual gifts which are given by God (as identified in I Corinthians 12:6). The passage in Romans 12 is a little more obscure in its identification of the Giver, yet the context of the passage and, once again, the verse (I Cor. 12:6) will support the Giver as being God the Father.
Rom. 12:1-4 — “-1- I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. -2- And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. -3- For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.”
Unlike the Ephesians 4 category, these gifts are not administrative nor are they callings (Rom. 12). They are given to all for service in the Body of Christ and considered operational in their application.
(I Cor. 12:6) These particular gifts have not been restricted to the Body of Christ like the other two categories, but have been given to all people. As per I Cor. 12:6:
“And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.” The word “all” being the same as the “all” in Rom. 3:23, “All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God” and Jesus Christ died and rose for “all.”
Another useful thought is contained in the book “Discover your God-given Gifts,” Don & Katie Fortune, Chosen Books-Baker Book House, 1987, page 17). Referring to these Operational Gifts, the book says they are “innate” or given to everyone in one degree or another. Everybody is able to Teach, Serve, Rule, etc. in various capacities and with varied effectiveness according the measure given to each individual. One may be very comfortable and effective at Teaching while not so effective at Exhortation. God being “no respecter of persons” metes out the seven gifts to all individuals so that everyone can function EQUALLY serving one another for the benefit of all.
ALL TRULY BORN AGAIN BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIANS HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY WITHIN THE TRUE CHURCH.
NO ONE IS MORE “SPECIAL” THAN ANYONE ELSE WITHIN THE TRUE CHURCH BECAUSE EACH ONE HAS BEEN PLACED THEIR BY GOD TO FULFILL HIS PURPOSES.
EACH TRULY BORN AGAIN BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIAN IS AS VALUABLE TO GOD AND TO EACH MEMBER OF THE TRUE CHURCH AS ANY ONE ELSE.
Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
2 Peter 1:20
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation
2 Thessalonians 2: 15
So then, brothers, stand firm, and cling to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.
1 Corinthians 16:13
Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
2 Thessalonians 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.
FALSE TEACHERS MUST BE AVOIDED FALSE TEACHINGS AND FALSE RELIGION MUST BE REJECTED
Faithfulness to HIS Word is what God requires of us:
2 Thessalonians 2: 15
So then, brothers, stand firm, and cling to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
The explanation given is quite accurate except the person of Jesus. He is presented because most people believe Jesus and Christ are the same but Christ is the anointing giving everyone who receives it the abilities demonstrated by Jesus and more (John 14:12). That is the wedding which actually takes place outside of churchanity.
Churchanity sees people becoming anointed and leaving them. Leaving, they throw the plan {plant} for churchanity to become anointed church but they want to use if for selfish gain and control, thus, destroying the plant left in their midst. Those outside of chruchanity admire those who are anointed know their time will also come to be the bride of the anointing.
The bride, made up of every type of religion and characteristic of man, are all following the example of their messenger who are all types of being anointed {meaning of saying the bride “is made up of Christians”}. They enter the millennium after THE BATTLE OF THAT GREAT DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY (Rev. 16:13-14) is completed and the bride comes out of Armageddon (Rev.6:15-16), where she is protected during the last battle, to reclaim the earth (Rev. 20:4).
FALSE TEACHING FALSE RELIGION AND FALSE REVIVALS ARE EVERYWHERE and God has permitted them to flourish in order to TEST the faithfulness of the remnant of True believers who will remain faithful to HIS Word until the very end and be saved from the coming Judgement of God.
As in the days of Noah, God has provided ONE means of escape.
Sadly many people are still too busy doing their own thing reinventing THE christian faith into a false faith by perverting the clear teaching of scripture into a religion which their “itching ears” and religious spirits find more appealing.
Tragically, many of these people seem to honestly believe that they know better than God HIMSELF and are showing HIM a better way of doing things the way Satan tempted Eve and subsequently Jesus Christ Himself and the way Cain decided that he would give God a fruit platter when God had clearly stated that he wanted animal sacrifice until the time that HE had set aside to do the “new ” thing by sending The Lord Jesus Christ to provide for our atonement once and for all without any further need for animal sacrifice.!!!!
Jesus Christ HIMSELF is the ONLY new thing which God is doing saving us from the need to make constant sacrifices. What HE requires now is obedience and ongoing faithfulness to HIS Word.
All else is satanic delusion!!!
“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV)
In 1948 a movement was born that has become the foundation of the great apostasy that the Apostle
Paul warned us would come prior to the return of our Lord. Known as the New Order of the Latter Rain or
just the Latter Rain Movement its influence has steadily grown within the Pentecostal and Charismatic
Churches since 1948. Today, through the influence of various “revivals” its leaven is spreading even further
into the Evangelical world.
An apostasy or “falling away” is essentially a rebellion of God’s people against His Word. It would
be within the Latter Rain “revival” which broke out in North Battleford, Saskatchewan, in 1948 that the last
great rebellion against the word of God would be birthed. It is my belief that this movement has ushered in
the very apostasy that the Apostle Paul warned would come.
Rebelling against the New Testament picture of the Church in the last days as a despised remnant of
the faithful holding on until the rapture, they began to develop a heretical doctrine of a triumphant Church –
conquering the world and bringing in the kingdom of Christ. The first time the Church adopted such a
theology it resulted in the development of Roman Catholicism and ushered in the Dark Ages. This time the
result will be much the same but of a much shorter duration. It will produce the one-world ecumenical
church, “The Great Harlot” that will triumph for a short time under Anti-Christ – “Drunken with the blood of
the saints and martyrs of Jesus.”
It came to be taught that the “Latter Rain” revival of 1948 was to be the first in a series of
“restorational moves of God” that would restore to the Church all of the truths that Satan had “robbed” her
of.
The five-fold ministries of apostles and prophets would also be restored to the church. These restored
“apostles” and “prophets” would lead the Church into “present truth” and the “last great moves of God.”
Eventually when the Church was mature enough the “rapture” would occur. But the rapture of the Latter
Rain would be a much different rapture than the Church had ever taught before. It would be a “spiritual”
coming of Christ into His Church, His “corporate body.” A “corporate anointing.” The saints would be
“glorified”, even “deified” – right here on this earth. This overcoming army of saints believes it will go
forth conquering and triumphing over all of it’s enemies in the Great Tribulation. When they are done Christ
will be “released from the heavens”, to come and take control of the kingdom they have established.
This doctrine is known as the “Manifest Sons of God” or “Sonship” and has spread throughout the
Evangelical Church through the Charismatic and Kingdom/Dominion Movements. The Latter Rain
“revivals” that are occurring in Toronto, Pensecola, and various other places are popularizing and spreading
this heresy at an alarming rate. It is known popularly today as “Joel’s Army”.
Thousands of Christians are coming into a strong delusion because they did not receive the love of the truth. While they may have
received the truth, they did not have a love for it and have therefore fallen away from it.
They are trading their blessed hope for an earthly delusion.
God has HIMSELF decreed that there is NO present TRUTH there is ONLY BIBLE TRUTH. – The Word of God.
Any other revelation is representing one of the many false christs’ we are repeatedly warned to avoid.
Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
The Queen of Heaven referred to above is the title given to the woman named Mary, Mother of God, worshipped by the Roman Catholic cult.
Thou shalt have no other Gods before me, saith the Lord.
Idolatry in any form is rebellion against the Word of God.
Following false Gods is unacceptable to God.
This is why there are many warnings about faithfulness in HIS Word such as:
Matthew 7:21-23:
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
The Word of God refers to rebellion as witchcraft and forbids it.
Consequently we MUST be very careful about what “our” churches are preaching and teaching and be always prepared to hold the preachers and teachers accountable for what they preach and teach
This is another of the very many reasons why the truly born again bible believing christian can have nothing whatsoever to do with the Roman Catholic Church, for example, and must come out of any religious organization which does.
1 John 2:4, “He that saith, I know HIM, and keepeth not HIS commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
To Llewelyn Stephenson just a reminder that instruction came from paul about not neglecting the gathering of saints, Jesus our savior was a missionary, he never sat in church.
He went around proclaiming the gospel. Thats why we have missionaries.
Regards Brenda.
Thank you so much for this article. This is my first time to hear this vision. I have been asking the Lord for confirmation that I am still on target and my plumb line is still straight. And He used this vision, which was given originally, I believe it was noted as being given in 1993, He used this to encourage me and give me renewed strength and hope.
The Lord gave me a vision of His sheep fold (the church) over 25 years ago. Jesus and I were standing on a hill looking out over a multitude of sheep, as far my eyes could see were sheep. The sheep at first looked so white and sparkling clean and strong and healthy.
I looked back at Jesus and He was bidding me to look again on the sheep. This time the sheep were dirty, skinny, weak with insects in their eyes, ears, and nose. The Lord said, “the first is how many of my ministers see My sheep, the second is how I see My sheep”.
In 1993 once again the Lord showed me the sheep fold (the church) this time they were even worse and some were laying on their side and I was bent over one that was down. (a sheep will die once they go down like that unless someone comes along and helps them get back up) I was overwhelmed with the great need within the church and the Lord said to me that I was not responsible to help all the sheep just the ones He would bring close enough for me to touch.
Since the Lord called me over 50 years ago, the burden and cry of the Holy Spirit in intercession has been for a consuming passion for Jesus and His Righteousness to return to the Lords’ church. So many are just playing games and they don’t realize how much danger they are in.
Thank you again for being used of our Lord. I have never entered a post before but I just had to respond to this message.
Yes, the true “bride” – those who have been purchased (chosen) by the Lord and whom the Lord (the bridegroom) is “married” to because they are “one” in Him, having and possessing His Holy Spirit inside of them, will leave (the false “religion” of “christianity”) because they cannot be unequally yoked (joined) to another-which is that false system of religiosity ..aka: “babylon” which means confusion.
The “bride” is not confused. The bride knows who her bridegroom is.The bridegroom has revealed Himself to the Bride and KNOWS her and in turn the bride KNOWS the bridegroom in an intimate way.
In other words,the bride has accepted the bridegroom’s invitation,and they have spent time getting to KNOW one another because of the Spirit that the bridegroom has bestowed upon His bride. The Spirit is what beautfies her and makes her ready for when the bridegroom shall return physically. The bride has made herself ready and is waiting for His return.
The bridegroom has the bride’s heart and the bride has her bridegroom’s heart and the two are ONE in Spirit. If they are ONE in Spirit how can she be joined to another? They have one another’s hearts.
There is no way the bride can remain with a substitute for her beloved bridegroom, which is what the false “religious” system of christianity and what it represents..The bride has found the better part and it shall not be taken away from her. She knows where she belongs.
“I am my beloveds and He is mine”
Thank you for such a beautiful reminder, “I am my beloveds and He is mine” Yes, she has found the best part, she knows His voice and another she will not follow!
Thank you doorkeeper for sharing your poignant vision from the Lord…much to ponder upon.
I should have finished what the Lord said after the last vision of the sheep bleeding, so wounded, some in process of dieing……Jesus said, ” many of the shepherds had used the rod and staff given to guide and help the sheep was being used to beat and wound the sheep. I believe the Bride is being healed and strengthened by the Truth that the Lord has sent through the true prophetic voice among His people. There are so many in these religions that are being wounded and abused. The Lord is sending in worriers both physically and by intercession to rescue and bring healing. He hears the cry of his precious sheep, which have been victimized by religion and their hirelings.
I’m sorry, I should have qualified my words, not all are hirelings, some really do want to serve Jesus but they have been so indoctrinated by man made religion that is all they know,
I so appreciate this prophesy, and agree with it. The Bride has come out of Christianity…meaning other Christians. That is going to make people mad to hear that, but that is exactly what it means. Not all Christians have that kind of relationship with the Lord. Not all Christians have their hearts skip a beat at the mere mention of His name let alone the presence of His Spirit. Only the Bride of Christ is so taken with Him as that.
Christians who attend church just when they please whether it’s in a building or not don’t have eyes only for the Bridegroom. They have their own agendas. Their lives revolve around them.
The Bride hears the Bridegrooms voice and skips over the mountains and willingly goes into the valleys to meet with Him…to minister to His needs which are always about His Saints.
Praise to His Holy name and Come quickly Lord Jesus.
Leaving the church system gives so much freedom to obey the Holy Spirit. All born again Christians need fellowship and nurture and training to hear the Voice of God and follow. They all need discipleship. But hopefully, this can be done outside the church system.
Just a thought there is a lot of talk about Jesus there is alot of talk about the Holy Spirit. I believe most are missing the real message and what salavation is really about. Eternal life is to know God. We can talk all day about our high ideas about who the Holy Spirit is and what we believe He is or is not doing. We can have all kind of feel good ideas about who we think Jesus is and how He died and if we are really good maybe He will come back and wisk us away with all the other good people . But if we do not know Almighty God as our Father then all our words are empty and no more then a bunch of clanging gongs. And I hear almost no thought on this subject. Every thing about the man Jesus Christ was about who His father was and that through Him Christ you to could have the very same thing. His whole porpose was to bring heaven the kingdom of God to us and in us.
So many are just waiting for thier idea of the gospel. The captain of our salavation said it was so we could be one with God.
Almost all of you are waiting for this to happen that is sorry.
How are any of you ever going to do what Jesus did unless you know God as Father and not just Jesus or your kooky ideas about what you think that means? if you think this is hard you are right these are hard times and going to get harder for many. While church folk sit around and talk about Jesus come save me or I was talking to Jesus. I got news for you this is not about Jesus He came to set us free from every kind of religon even in to making Him into a reliogus symbol. Truly how many of you pray to God as your Father or really know Him as your Father?
Jesus in the way the truth and the life. Almighty God creator of the heavens and the earth is the goal. Jesus always pointed to God as the important aspect of every thing He was about. I see very little if any of this thought in most all i see here. We think about our selves to go to church or not to go but how many say Father we have not included you in any of this. Could the reason be we dont know Him in this way? If that be the case then we need to sit down and really ask our selves our we just playing silly games with peoples lives or are we bringing people the greatest gift possible. That through Gods son Jesus Christ you to can know God as your Father and be set free from all the power of the enemy now in this life time and be a victor over the power of the devil. Because as a son through Christ there is nothing your Father will not do for you to. And do not pick up and throw rocks if you dont like what I wrote just pass me by as some one who loves His Father and would like you to know Him. I tell Him every day if they could see you they would love you. You need to look past the window Christ and see all that is in the kingdom that your Father has prepared He is waiting for you to come up higher.
I was saying this on the Revival School comment site a few years ago before being unceremoniously cut off and asked to leave the site. What I spoke of then, is exactly what we are seeing in the natural now. I just hope the fighting guests or the ‘christian apologists’ don’t get all wound up once more to reject the message the Lord has been saying for years now.
The Bride will not call herself ‘christian’ either, as even the term ‘christian’ conontates religion and the Bride will have nothing to do with Religion, only the truth of His amazing word.
To be called ‘christian’ isn’t scriptural, although the apologists will claim otherwise saying that ‘it’s an honor to be called by that name’ which was initially used as a derrogatory term for believers of ‘The Way’.
I hope they are now seeing the truth and the move of the Lord which has been happening for several years now. The ‘Revival’ will not happen in the ‘christian church’, but is happening outside of it.
I know many of you will continue to assert the name ‘christian’ as being proper, but I would point out to all of y’all in love, that even the Disciples quarrelled over this, but instead used the term ‘jew’. Judas Iscariot is an excellent example of having one foot in the truth and another in religion. This is what is meant by ‘you cannot serve two masters’; having one foot in religion (christianity) and another in the truth.
Again, my words may be too precise or too early to be accepted, but the truth is found in Him and always has been; it has never been found in the constructs of mankind or within the walls of it’s religions in which the Lord clearly says to us in Revelation 18:4, “Come out of her my children, lest you share in her sins and partake of her plagues.”
I’m encouraged by those who are starting to see the truth for being the truth and for religion being what it is.
Seek Him while He may still be found…do NOT miss the invitation to the greatest social occasion of all time….the Wedding Feast of the Bride & Bridegroom.
Be very careful that you are not one of the squabbling religionists fighting over a bouquet, and instead, be a true and acceptable Bride to the Lord. She is spiritually pure, spotless and without blemish and has no religion in her.
In His Service,
Believer (Also previoiusly known as A Voice)
Is the believer discipled by the Holy Spirit or by the ministries that Christ has set forth in the Body? Did Jesus disciple the twelve, or did he leave that responsibility to the Holy Spirit?
Ephesians 4:11-16 was specifically set in the “Church” for that prupose. These are ministries (the “five” fold) that Jesus HIMSELF appoints and ordains with that responsibility.
One can be discipled from within or outside of what some consider to be the “Church”, but there is no doubt that these five ministries are set and ordained by Jesus to disciple the beliver in each individuals specific ministry. Also note that NOT ALL believers are appointed with this responsibility.
You are saying there are 2 ways of discipling….through the Holy Spirit; through men appointed and filled by God.
That is just the same thing…..in both cases you are being discipled by the Holy Spirit.
God’s Spirit filled followers are only the conduits, they add nothing of themselves. It is all Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the Father.
A Spirit filled follower knows there is nothing in there self/flesh/mind/reasoning that can be added to anything that God is saying or doing.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
It only takes that many to form a church grouping.
Jesus did not build cathedrals but he did have his disciples carry the purse. The purse was used to help the poor and meet their own needs from time to time, not make grand structures to impress and become established. That was what the miracles and teachings were for.
It makes no difference how big and impressive your office building is and how important it make you look to the world outside if you can’t cast the devils out of it.
Many people are dissatisfied with the Church in general, and are venturing out on their own, many times not being connected with any established fellowship for years. I understand the frustration of feeling straight-jacketed within a church, and also the frustration of church politics taking precedence over the teaching and implementation of the Word. Many gifted people never get to use their gifts because those in authority don’t let them. I have felt these same things.
I do see a few red flags within this post, however. Like Llevelyn, I agree that we are commanded to not neglect assembling together:
“Let us hold fast to the confession of out hope without wavering, for He who promised us is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and even so much the more as you see the Day approaching.” (Heb. 10:23-25)
This passage does not suggest that striking out on our own for an undeterminable amount of time is wise. While there may be periods that the Lord takes us out of a fellowship and teaches us on our own, it is not scriptural to stand apart from a local assembly permanently. We are to gather together as a body.
I also noticed some “Be ye separate” comments about ths article. While Christians are commanded not to be like the world, we are to be in the world. Consider these words of Jesus while praying to the Father on behalf of the disciples, before His betrayal by Judas:
“But now I come to Thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy full in themselves. I have given them Thy word; and the world has hated them, even as I am not of the world. I do not ask Thee to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the the world, even as I am not of the world.” (John 17:13-16)
Jesus prayed for His disciples to be kept from Satan. If we are also His disciples, or followers, we are to remain in the world and be protected from Satan’s schemes. How else will more disciples be made if we totally ignore the world, including individual fellowships?
“Sanctify them in Thy truth; Thy word is truth. As Thou didst send Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves may also be sanctified in truth. I do not ask for them alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me. And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.” (John 17:17-23)
Did you catch that? Not only did Jesus pray for all of His disciples, including His future disciples, to remain in Him, He prayed that the world might believe the Father sent Him through all of us being one! If Christians cannot stand united, how will the world believe the message of the gospel of Christ?
I don’t know how this unity will be achieved, or what it will look like, but as Christians, we cannot just break off on our own and remain separated. We must come together: Protestants, Catholics, Messianic Jews, and those who belong to no established church but are disciples of Christ, to be a witness to the truth that Jesus is Messiah, Savior, and Lord.
Do people really believe that the vision of the Valley of Dry Bones in Ezekiel 37 only refers to Israel? Yes, the Lord explained to Ezekiel, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold,they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.’ Therefore prophesy, and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people, and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you in your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it,” declares the LORD.’ ” (Ezek. 37:11-14)
If my viewpoint sounds far-fetched, consider that all who are disciples of Christ are Jews. “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not the letter; and his praise is not from men but from God.” (Rom. 2:28-29)
“For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; FOR WHOEVER CALLS UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” (Rom. 10:12-13)
As Gentiles, we are the wild branch grafted into the natural olive tree, as written in the 11th chapter of Romans. We are one with the true Israel.
To wrap this up, it is fine to come out of likewarm or doctrinally unsound churches if the Lord tells you to do so. To remain separated, however, is not scriptural. I believe strongly in having a personal relationship with Christ. If you lack this, you are not a true Christian, and God will spew you out of His mouth one day. But if you remain separated from the body of Christ through some sort of fellowship, you are also in error, and run the risk of not doing the things God had planned for you to do, along with believing strange doctrines.
Hi Sharon – a very good comment – and as a ‘called out’ Christian of some 20 years, I would like to briefly share our beliefs, most of which are in agreement with you.. …perhaps because we are both focussing on Jesus as Lord..? :-)
The most important point, I feel, is the term ‘called out’ if God has not shown someone to leave the denominational system then they shouldn’t – UNLESS the teaching is biblically unsound which Scripture plainly says we are to avoid. To leave because of hurts is to focus on ‘self’.
We have fellowship with one another, Heb.10:23-25 has been used to get us into a ‘denominational church’. After years of heartache over this and seeking God’s will, He showed us that He did not set up denominations, and they actually divide His Body. Man’s interpretations and doctrines established denominational church.
Yes, Sharon, I agree, we most definitely are to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He is also our teacher and counsellor – we have both written and spoken word with confirmation from the written. We also share together things that Jesus shows us, and we seek confirmation and correction from our recognised elders, (which is not a label).
As you share – we are in unity through the Holy Spirit of God – as promised in John 14:10-24, and John 17. This unified body is spread throughout the world – and the Lord Jesus introduces us to others as He sees the need.
You ask how will this unity be acheived..? I truly believe it is being acheived now through His Holy Spirit – not completely yet, but as self decreases and He increases in each of us, so He will shine through.
Jesus came to set us free from man’s religious traditions and rituals, He spoke of this before He went to the cross. Man set them up again shortly after. ..and yes there are some incredibly strange doctrines out there, seemingly more by the day. With discernment, and His guiding, it is easy to avoid these.
So, we focus on Jesus Christ and Him crucified for the remission of our sin, which is flesh. We are born again spiritually, and live in Him, and He in us. Because we are free, and obedient to His command, we are learning to move only when He says, speak only what He says. …and yes, we make mistakes and do things in the flesh too. :-)
Jesus is Love, His spirit is Grace and He wants us all to primarily have fellowship with Him before all others, to walk with Him and talk with Him. As He intended with Adam, and He did with His disciples when first on earth, as He is doing now, and as we understand He will do again for eternity.
In your final para. you say: “To remain separated, however, is not scriptural”. I agree, the sad thing is that many are, because of ‘every wind of doctrine’ or ‘self’.
Thanks for sharing Sharon, In the Love which is Christ Jesus,
Roger
The ‘graft’ of Gentiles into the tree does not mean that it will be returned to the ‘religious/ethnic/cultural’ jews, but those who come to the cross, will be grafted in with all the others.
An association must be made that Protestant, Messy Jews, Catholic et al…are ‘religions’ and not of the Lord.
Those of us who have been outside of the Christian church for years and some for decades, do not require the religious teachings of the ‘assembly’ of those who are religious, being taught by a man made priesthood with degrees in theology.
Mans understanding of what the ‘assembly’ of other believers, means to congregate in a religious building built and paid for by paid members in that specific group. No where in His word does it mean those who are truely free in the wonderful Liberty He provides us in salvation, have to submit themselves to the man made authority of a ‘paid priesthood’, of which the Lord Himself condemns in Isaiah.
To be ‘separate’ from the religious is not a sin nor is it against the word of the Lord, but it of course allows and encourages the assemblying of other believers. This can be done in many settings in many occassions, not just the institutionalized ‘church’ that has lost it’s way and in the bigger picture, compromised itself with sin and has lost its taste. My personal observation as a non-christian, spirit filled new creation in the Lord, is that the christian church is well on its way to being Laodecia.
The offices of the church are not appointments by man, in fact the Ephesians passage demonstrates this by the Lord Himself appointing those to the specific offices, and are of a ‘spiritual’ nature, not one of authority. In saying that, should one construe the head of the catholic religion as being the ‘voice’ of the Lord? I would certainly hope not.
What of the evangelicals (I call them evanjellyfish) who have compromised themselves with sin & are openly encouraging dialogue of ‘understanding’ between christianity, Islam, Judaism and all the other religions of man. This certainly isn’t something the Lord condones as He is quite clear that we are to remove ourselves from this type of sin. Remember, the Bride is ‘spiritually’ pure, spotless and w/o blemish…..by compromising His truth with the part truth of Judaism, the lies of Islam and the pagan world of other religions of this world, christianity is doing exactly that.
The Pastor in Florida who recently hit the world news for desiring to burn the Quran, was spiritually right on in his desire. If the Lord had told him to do this, he had better do so or face the severe consequences of not obeying. Sure, the move was provocative, but wait till y’all see what the Bride is going to say as her voice is raised up as the only light of truth in the darkness of the coming tribulation. It’s going to be awesome!
Christianity had its purpose as the glue between the two final empires of man…but the Bride is already rising OUTSIDE of the christian man made religion. Those of us who are already out know this to be true and personally, I have seen my examples of the Lord works OUTSIDE of the christian church than inside.
We should all pray for His guidance and take His word as the gospel truth…for it never changes.
Question: Who do y’all think true Israel is?
Great discussion on a very very important topic.
This vision is true, it has begun and will ncontinue until fulfillment! How true when the vision says that many follow personal fame, fortune, power, and place the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the “back seat” of their particular “Christian” vehicle ….. Eric
Hi believer, Good post…
In your last paragraph, I am presuming you meant many or more examples …? (I have seen my examples of the Lord works OUTSIDE of the christian church than inside.)
..if so, then I agree.
It seems to me that many, but by no means all !! :-) (please dont hit me anyone, apostasy is rampant) inside the religious system are looking to false signs and wonders that please self and flesh, rather than to Jesus Christ who strips self and flesh. So, these things of flesh are antichrist.
I too was guilty in the past of desiring the gift, but ignoring the giver. I also looked to the work of the Lord and not the Lord of the work. I was taught to do these things whilst I was in a denominational church.
After being called out, and I mean specifically ‘Called Out’ – Jesus set me free, stripped me of the false and misinterpreted teachings, and then showed me His truth from Scripture, circumstance and direct revelation – I learnt to trust Him, and hear Him – and then to obey. This took years, and is not yet completed – and during that time the Lord Jesus has provided for us – stretched $, stretched food, healings, broken chains, revelations and confirmations – all miracles. So, to put that into Scripture, He provided our needs, not our wants, our needs – and these as He saw them, not as we saw them.
We and others have been the circle of what do we call ourselves… please note, self again. So, we stick with Christian as a believer in Christ. How do you put a name on Christ in us and us in Him..?
Re: Israel – yes my friend it is a most important subject – firstly we have not replaced Israel. They are still the apple of God’s eye, His chosen people – His promises to them cannot be broken , and will be fulfilled. Were there 10 lost tribes…? I dont think so – certainly any teaching that points toward Anglo-Israelism is basically an offshoot of ‘Replacement doctrine’. I know that others disagree – see in the forum on this site: “Will Jews be expelled from Israel…” for debates that are O.T. based… please dont go into long dialogues with me over why/why not – I have read, studied, sought God, discussed with others. Have a look, a read and seek for yourself.
What is prophesied by God will happen – He is in control, and if He wants us to know this things then He will show us so that we are all in agreement.
In these days, Jesus is not calling us into debates and arguements over petty doctrines – He is calling us into a relationship with Him, for His Glory – not ours. He had to come to Earth in the form of flesh so that flesh could die. If salvation was only us saying a sinners prayer and waiting for a rapture, Scripture could have told us that.
His willing choice to go to the cross is the example that we are all to follow. Death to sin/flesh, born again through the Holy Spirit.
We only have 2 commandments to follow – Love God, and love our neighbour, that Love is only found through and in Jesus Christ.
Please understand, I am not attacking, criticising, putting down, argueing… I am attempting to share in the Love which is Jesus Christ my focus as one who sought, and has now found the only way, all truth and eternal life – in and through Christ Jesus my Lord.
May He reveal Himself to every one in a truly personal way.. :-)
Roger
Can’t wait to read all the posts here. Does anyone know what the Bride of Christ is compared to the Church. Are they the same, and why are they used interchangeably in the Bible?
@Trei…
Yes, I tried to go back to the site and it is gone. I guess whoever owned the site it was posted through did not appreciate what was posted and deleted it. It is still truth,
@Aussie Girl…I agree with you wholeheartedly! It was revealed to me many years ago to start reading the scriptures in their original language to get a better understanding…I did, and I do…
@All…
Once we understand that WE are the church, not a building or denomination AND that “assembling ourselves together ” doe not mean “go to a church building”…everything will become quite clear…crystal clear.
When scripture was written Christians did not meet in buildings but in houses, in fact Christianity was secretive hence the reason for the “fish symbol” because it was dangerous to be a Christian a times.
Study your scriptures and study biblical history. Stop trying to get visions and revelations to line up with what your leaders have taught you the word states and actually get to know what it states. Time is short! Blessings!
I had a open vision about 10 years ago…
I was washing dishes and pondering the state of the modern day “church” when I was suddenly walking down a road toward a hut with a thatched roof. I heard a “crying” that was more of a “baaaaing” as I got closer to the hut and as I walked inside I saw a shepherd seated on a stool with his back to me.
As I walked around him I saw the head of a sheep on his thigh and as I rounded him I saw the sheep was between his legs and he was shearing him with a razor. The problem was the sheep was bloody in his hands…bloody from the shearing…it was horrible!!!
I pulled out of the vision asking the Lord what was that…what was that! He said the shepherds were doing all they could to get every dime from the sheep, using every scheme they could and the sheep were bloody in their hands. He said the shepherds were shearing so deeply until the sheep could not replenish themselves.
Do you think this is the “church” the Lord wants? Do you think the Lord will leave us in the hands of these leaders? Do you think he will not separate the tares from the wheat? the goats from the sheep? the hirelings from the true shepherds? Then think again…
I posted this yesterday in the forum under: “The Bride will leave Christendom..?”
I have prayed as whether to share the vision below, and whether just the vision or to include the interpretation.
God’s answer to me is: “I am still calling my people”.
=========================================
Ralph Lane, October 1989, New Zealand
I was confused about what constituted God’s church, so I asked Him to enlighten me. His answer came to me in the form of three different pictures and the statement:
“My church is built of living stones “.
Scene 1: I saw a large field full of stones. As I watched, the stones came to life and began to move. The majority of the stones moved to my side of the field. Then they broke up into groups. Some formed themselves into a rough heap in no form or order, while others as if under direction, stacked themselves in orderly fashion to form walls or fences. At the same time other stones moved to the far side of the field, too far off for me to see what was happening.
Scene 2: I was in the same position but some time had passed. The stones which had formed into a rough heap had collected dirt and dust in all the holes and gaps, allowing weeds and scrub to overgrow the heap. The stones were now captive and unable to move. The various walls that had formed were in a sorry state of repair, some with weeds growing in the cracks where the stones didn’t fit. Some walls had split in two, while other walls had gaps where stones had fallen out. Stones were still moving between the walls, and a few stones were moving across the field to the far side. Generally the area had taken on a ‘dead look’. When I looked closer at the walls I saw that those which had collapsed had no foundation under them; they had been built on dirt alone, while the walls which had split had solid foundations in parts but not in others where they had crumbled. Walls where stones were falling out had very uncertain, disintegrating foundations.
As I considered these pictures it seemed that God was saying that ‘We’ are the stones and we are to gather together in an orderly fashion under direction, but must watch the foundation on which we gather, and under whose direction we gather, and also how we are fitted into the structure.
Scene 3: I was once again at the same field but this time on the opposite side. In the distance I could see the rough heap of stones and collection of now very dilapidated walls. Directly below me was a large wall with small walls attached to and forming part of it. These small walls jutted out to various distances on either side. The first thing I noticed about this wall was its foundation. It looked solid, smooth and strong, and had the appearance of going very deep into the ground. The wall itself seemed very solid and secure yet alive and with no joins or cracks between the stones which fitted perfectly. Stones continued to arrive from they other side of the field, moving to the wall and looking for a place to settle. One would find a hole and drop into it, but if it didn’t fit, it would move away looking for another place. When it found its place it became as one with the wall and left no gap or crack where it joined The stones seemed to be moving as if under direction but I could see no visible director. Then words seemed to form in my mind like a sign above the wall which said: “This is my church “.
I understood that God requires His people to gather together on the foundation of Jesus Christ alone. The foundation should have none of those things that man would build into it, as man’s ideas will cause the foundation to crumble and give way.
We must allow ourselves to be built together under the direction of the Holy Spirit alone, as He has a place already set out for our particular shape, and only He knows where it is.
We must not allow men to reshape us and try to fit us into a structure to their purpose, as the fit they make will never be perfect and weeds will grow in the cracks causing stones to fall from the wall. The temple of God is built from living stones and can only be completed as they allow themselves to be perfectly fitted together to become one. When each stone supports all those stones that come in contact with it, then together they will form a single stone..
I noticed that the words used were that the bride was leaving “christendom” or the church system. So this prophecy is scriptural, to me, in that context. It is not saying that the bride will leave the church, but the “system”, or “churchianity”, or the worldview of christianity. The Lord’s view of his church is not the world’s view.
The vision would be correct in that the present church system stained by the world has to release the bride, otherwise she’ll be unclean. Christendom or christianity is a word used by the world, it was never mentioned in the Bible. It is a compound word, and means establishment, established with man-made materials, municipal licenses, federal taxes, requiring accountants, lawyers, mortgage bankers, developers, secretaries, musicians, technical supporters, etc. Just like a business. But if christians around the world loosely call themselves that and don’t act it, it becomes affiliated with hypocrisy. Maybe this vision is saying that the Bride must come out of her walls now because she has disgusted unbelievers with her hypocrisy, some televangelists who have knowingly fleeced the flock, teach outrageous things, idolize their flags, politicians, push themselves in government, and live just like the world. Divorce rates, conservative “feminists” who preach to build great careers, who say, women can “do it all”, western churches especially, rich, have need of nothing. Why would the Lord not want to be affiliated with this. It’s not surprising that this prophecy and others like it have been spoken.
So, to me, it is scriptural in the sense that Jesus will not suffer his Church to be a mockery, and calls out certain ones to be the church, live as examples in their daily lives, until He gives each one of us direction in where to go, what to do, which for some of us, might take a few weeks, a few years; We all are in different phases of our walk.
Thanks for sharing this.
Revelation 2:1-7
(1) “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,’These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:
(2) “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil.
And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
(3) and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary.
(4) Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
(5) Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
(6) But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
(7) “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”‘
The church is not the Bride, nor are all Christians part of the Bride. My belief is that the firstfruits are the Bride; those that follow are the guests to the wedding feast. An often overlooked passage of Scripture is Luke 12:35-40.
“Stay dressed for action and keep your lamps burning, and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast, so that they may open the door to him at once when he comes and knocks. Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at table, and he will come and serve them. If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them awake, blessed are those servants! But know this, that if the master of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into. You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
Note that the Master (Jesus) comes back from a wedding feast that is already taking place looking for more guests to invite to eat with Him. One can conclude that those (firstfruits) already with him constitute the Bride possibly during the first watch. Thus we are warned to be ready if the Master returns during the 2nd and even 3rd watch. Thus, if we are not taken during the 1st watch, keep your lamps burning and waiting like faithful servants so when the Master returns He will finds us ready. This passage goes against traditional teaching that the entire body of Christ constitutes the Bride and all are raptured/resurrected at the same time.
Only the revelation of God shows how He will be worshipped, and He will not be served in imitation of other gods. God’s way cannot be “improved” by human sincerity.
Deuteronomy 13:1-18 defines the law regarding apostasy.
Those who led others to worship other gods or adopt the practices of the nations around them were to be stoned!
Cities that fell under the sway of corrupt individuals were to be attacked, burned to the ground, and left as rubble!
God considers tampering with His truth to be evil that must be eradicated!
Apostasy begins with the perverse drive in man to push beyond the bounds of what has been revealed by God as the basis for His way of life. When God gives instruction, He frequently does so in broad generalities. Within the parameters of those broad generalities, He expects us to explore and to apply them in their spirit and intent.
Unfortunately, history reveals that that has not been mankind’s approach. Man has consistently tried to “improve” upon God’s revelation using his limited reason and logic.
Satan introduced heresy into human life through Adam and Eve when he induced them to sin by telling them, “You will not surely die” (Genesis 3:4).
They believed this perversion of God’s truth, and upon sinning, the destructive course began. By being cast from the Garden of Eden, they were almost immediately separated from God.
They did not live and prosper as Satan’s cruel perversion led them to believe. Instead, the Devil exploited them through their innocence and desires, and through sin they became his slaves. Hundreds of years later, they died just as God said they would.
The Devil’s attempts to deceive through false teaching have never stopped.
Jesus warned in Mark 13:22 that, as we approach the end, it will be especially intensive;
“For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
” He warns that, if it is possible for us to be deceived, we will be deceived by false doctrines.
God is calling His church again to be founded on apostles & prophets’ not pastors & accountants,some churches are , many ain’t, time to stand up in Spirit and take full authority ,not in natural,no more playn’ church,WE are joint heirs with Christ .He has all authority in Heaven and on earth ,only when you die to self can you get your head round it and God can trust u !!!!?!!!@
phillipians 3:10 live it
Lester
The true church is and ALWAYS HAS BEEN founded unconditionally upon THE FAITH once delivered to the original Apostles appointed by Christ HIMSELF.
TRULY BORN AGAIN BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIANS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FAITHFUL TO HIS WORD AND REJECTED ALL THAT WAS CONTRARY TO OR EXALTED ITSELF ABOVE HIS WORD.
The doctrine of these original Apostles is contained for us in THE BIBLE.
Any other teaching is satanic in origin and leading to eternal damnation.
These latter rain apostles and prophets are charlatans, the BIBLE refers to as wolves to the extent that their teachings deviates from the revealed Word of God as contained in The Bible,
Their purpose in the plan of God is establishing the HARLOT church to deceive those who refuse to remain faithful to HIS WORD because their itching ears are seeking something else more entertaining and rewarding to their carnal appetites to believe in.
God HIMSELF has allowed this delusion in order to TEST the faithfulness and commitment of HIS PEOPLE TO HIS WORD.
DO NOT PERMIT YOURSELF TO BE DECEIVED BY THIS NONSENSE!!!!!
People who allow themselves to be deceived by these latter rain self appointed “anointed ones” who place title and position above the Word of God have lost their first love and have thereby forfeited their eternal salvation in favour of the same illusory temptation that Satan used so successfully against Eve in the garden of Eden when He suggested that God had NOT really meant what HE said.
I urge you to read the following synopsis of the background of this dilemma that has permeated the christian church in diabolical fashion and to turn back to the BIBLE for guidance and direction.
JUDGE all things by the BIBLE alone and hold every teacher and preacher accountable to BIBLE standards.
“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling
away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV)
In 1948 a movement was born that has become the foundation of the great apostasy that the Apostle
Paul warned us would come prior to the return of our Lord. Known as the New Order of the Latter Rain or
just the Latter Rain Movement its influence has steadily grown within the Pentecostal and Charismatic
Churches since 1948. Today, through the influence of various “revivals” its leaven is spreading even further
into the Evangelical world.
An apostasy or “falling away” is essentially a rebellion of God’s people against His Word. It would
be within the Latter Rain “revival” which broke out in North Battleford, Saskatchewan, in 1948 that the last
great rebellion against the word of God would be birthed. It is my belief that this movement has ushered in
the very apostasy that the Apostle Paul warned would come.
Rebelling against the New Testament picture of the Church in the last days as a despised remnant of
the faithful holding on until the rapture, they began to develop a heretical doctrine of a triumphant Church –
conquering the world and bringing in the kingdom of Christ. The first time the Church adopted such a
theology it resulted in the development of Roman Catholicism and ushered in the Dark Ages. This time the
result will be much the same but of a much shorter duration. It will produce the one-world ecumenical
church, “The Great Harlot” that will triumph for a short time under Anti-Christ – “Drunken with the blood of
the saints and martyrs of Jesus.”
It came to be taught that the “Latter Rain” revival of 1948 was to be the first in a series of
“restorational moves of God” that would restore to the Church all of the truths that Satan had “robbed” her
of. The five-fold ministries of apostles and prophets would also be restored to the church. These restored
“apostles” and “prophets” would lead the Church into “present truth” and the “last great moves of God.”
Eventually when the Church was mature enough the “rapture” would occur. But the rapture of the Latter
Rain would be a much different rapture than the Church had ever taught before. It would be a “spiritual”
coming of Christ into His Church, His “corporate body.” A “corporate anointing.” The saints would be
“glorified”, even “deified” – right here on this earth. This overcoming army of saints believes it will go
forth conquering and triumphing over all of it’s enemies in the Great Tribulation. When they are done Christ
will be “released from the heavens”, to come and take control of the kingdom they have established.
This doctrine is known as the “Manifest Sons of God” or “Sonship” and has spread throughout the
Evangelical Church through the Charismatic and Kingdom/Dominion Movements. The Latter Rain
“revivals” that are occurring in Toronto, Pensecola, and various other places are popularizing and spreading
this heresy at an alarming rate. It is known popularly today as “Joel’s Army”. Thousands of Christians are
coming into a strong delusion because they did not receive the love of the truth. While they may have
received the truth, they did not have a love for it and have therefore fallen away from it. They are trading
their blessed hope for an earthly delusion.
THE TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD REALLY DOES MATTER
THE ONLY NEW THING THAT GOD IS DOING IS PROVIDING HIS SON JESUS CHRIST FOR OUR ATONEMENT SO THAT WE NO LONGER NEED TO OFFER UP ANIMAL SACRIFICES.
THIS NEW COVENANT MAKES JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF TOTALLY SUFFICIENT AS THE ONCE FOR ALL TIME SUBSTITUTIONARY SACRIFICE FOR THOSE WHO WILL ACCEPT HIM BY FAITH AND COMMIT TO GROWING IN GRACE BY WHOLEHEARTED COMMITMENT TO HIM VIA HIS TEACHINGS AVAILABLE TO US IN THE BIBLE.
WE MUST NOT TRADE OUR ETERNAL HERITAGE FOR THE EARTHLY DELUSION BEING DISHED UP BY THESE LATTER RAIN WOLVES AND CHARLATANS.
Wayne
Genesis 2: 17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt shurley die.
This is what God said.
This is what you said. Hundreds of years later they died just as God said.
The devils attempt to decieve through false teaching have never stoped. You might want to look at your own writing Wayne and listen to what you have said and apply it to your self. It would seem by your own words you are one of these fales teachers.
I really no not think many find this as a suprise. See in the above it may be a little diffrence that many would not notice but in almost all you say there is bits and pieces of truth and the rest is your own brand of truth and most of it slanted at damming every one who may see things a little diffrent then you which is just about everyone.
Dear Sister Clare Watts:
Your entry blessed my socks off! You go girl…in the Spirit, of course. :)
Roger- Yes, you are correct on my last paragraph and thank you for responding to my previous post.
In these kinds of forums, context and ‘tone’ are always lost so we must all be careful to ensure what we write doesn’t get miscontrued. :)
I would ask you about ‘replacement theology’, a term I never heard before but am now aware is something many who are still in the christian church, are familiar with. This deals with who ‘Israel’ is.
Replacement is precisely what the Lord demonstrates to us. In a sense, His word is entirely replacement, but not in the context I believe you are using, in that we must replace our natural sinful state with that of the Spirit of the Lord, breathing His life giving breath back into us so that we become Israel or a part of the House of Israel.
But there is a lot of truth to the ‘nation’ being replaced also. If you are able and have time, I would like to hear how you believe the promises for Israel are still valid for today and how His Church can parallel the ‘nation’ Israel in fulfilling His promises.
I would be so much nicer if we could discuss one on one so we can better understand and communicate with one another, so we’ll have to take this one step at a time. We’ll work within the parameters of this comment section. :)
With this ‘replacement theology’, would this mean that the modern State of Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy? Is the ‘Church’ a separate entity? If so, how is it defined in His word?
Are not His promises for salvation, victory, atonement and eternal life for all mankind and not just the ‘nation Israel’? Does ‘bloodline’ still have legitimacy for a ‘special’ treatment by the Father over people not of the jewish bloodline?
For me, I don’t see how modern Israel could be anything but a man made construct, but I’d like to see where you are coming from, so I can better understand the ‘replacement theology’ so talked about in christian circles.
I’ll leave it at that for now and hope that you’ll see this post and respond as time permits.
In His Service,
Believer
Just because God has called you out of the church, does not mean you cannot have fellowship. Many people are being divinely connected with others of like mind ,even 2 or three to share ,pray worship, even on the telephone. . They are finding that God is answering their prayers, as they are being faithful and obedient. Although it is a lonely walk at times,. being in the school of the Holy Spirit, God will bring the right people together to support one another.
Stuart wrote:
“Note that the Master (Jesus) comes back from a wedding feast that is already taking place looking for more guests to invite to eat with Him. One can conclude that those (firstfruits) already with him constitute the Bride possibly during the first watch. Thus we are warned to be ready if the Master returns during the 2nd and even 3rd watch. Thus, if we are not taken during the 1st watch, keep your lamps burning and waiting like faithful servants so when the Master returns He will finds us ready. This passage goes against traditional teaching that the entire body of Christ constitutes the Bride and all are raptured/resurrected at the same time.”
From what I have been led to study, I agree with you Stuart.
The “barley harvest” comes first….the “firstfruits”, as the barley harvest “ripens” faster and must be harvested sooner.
The “wheat harvest” ripens slower and is harvested later.
Not sure of the time difference between the two though.
Believer – thanks for your comments.
There are 3 links below, the first is a definition of the term ‘Replacement Theology’, the 2nd refutes R.T., the 3rd supports R.T. Have a read – I’m sure once you get into these articles you will see that you are already aware of the ‘theology’.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:Replacement+theology&sa=X&ei=bnmWTM2pGIHGcNKD5KMF&ved=0CBYQkAE
http://www.shema.com/Combating%20Replacement%20Theology/crt-004.php
http://www.midnightcall.com/articles/prophetic/replacement_theology.html
A lot of the comments I made were for general reading, not just in answer to you – I wasn’t concerned that you would ‘beat me over the head’, its just that on a site like this you have so many people, with so many doctrines, all pushing their beliefs – a lot of which are based on selective scripture. I desire to share in the Love which is Jesus Christ – not debate to prove a point.
Its nice to meet others who have been ‘called out’ – read the vision which I posted about 15 comments back.
Briefly, yes we are all to come to Jesus, He is the only way, truth and Life. Salvation just aint happening except through Him. All means all.. having said that I do not believe that God has cast Israel, the Jewish people, His people to one side, and moved on to only Gentiles. There are too many promises to Israel, and too many unfulfilled prophecies.. and I mean O.T. prophecies, rather than many that we hear today. Because God has spoken these O.T. prophecies, I believe they will be fulfilled.
Interestingly, if one looks past the ‘Israel’ focus of the moment – one can see that the real target is Jerusalem. ..and one could argue that this is the culmination of Isaac versus Ishmael
Whilst I am aware of a lot of false teaching through the ages, I do not research them, I used to – no more – Jesus has shown me that I am to focus on Him and His words. What is written (by God) my friend will be accomplished. :-)
In Jesus,
Roger
awaiting His return – 100% agree :-)
If you haven’t already, have a read of the vision (not mine) that is posted about 16 comments back….
In Jesus Christ our Lord,
Roger
Christ is the end of all the law and the prophets of the old testament. All was fullfiled in Christ what most are waiting for has alredy been fullfiled they just would rather believe lies and carnal thoughts of men that always tell them tommorow when they could posses it today in Christ. God has no other plan but Christ and so few will enter in. They wait and say look here and look there.
Any moment He will come. We need to see all the sighns then we will believe. God has already given the only sighn and that is His word the Christ of God. Christ is the way to God and the kingdom of God is Now the doors are open even now. What are you waiting for? To enter you need only believe but most are waiting for old testament prophicies that have already been years past and will miss what God is doing through His true word the Christ of God.
David – you said: “Christ is the end of all the law and the prophets of the old testament. All was fullfiled in Christ what most are waiting for has alredy been fullfiled they just would rather believe lies and carnal thoughts…”
Scripture tells us that Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
David, you also said: “…but most are waiting for old testament prophicies that have already been years past…”
Again, Scripture tells us from Isaiah 17:1-3 “The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid. The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts”.
David my friend, should I ask how you explain this – Scripturally.?
In the Love which is Jesus Christ our Saviour and Lord, Roger
It is fascinating to see these various responses. For me, I keep it simple. I did not escape from the Catholic Church to become ensnared in Protestant Church wrangling ‘s and will not allow people to label me as anything other than the ‘Sheepdog” of the Lord. He points, I go, He whistles i come back to His feet, I will fellowship with any who have put their faith in the simple gospel truth. I loathe the systems that invest huge money in buildings while so many of the body of Christ are starving and without bibles. My own walk has to be hour by hour, day by day with an ear alert to hear the Lord’s prompts. I tend to think He is more willing to speak to us than we are to listen. I am convinced we are all heading for big trouble worldwide if we are truly following Jesus. I see an apostate church developing and the Vatican as always is the sinister power behing the moves being made. The vision being discussed here for me rings true in my spirit and my prayer as always is that all who have a tender heart will hear His call. surely the major spirit threatening the church today is called “Deception”. The enemy is very skilled and we all need to watch and assist one-another in every way.
Blessings on you all brothers and sisters. I will watch and pray over all your comments that we will not trip into error.
Rob
The Bride Will Leave Christendom
…. indeed she will,
as she has already headed through the door ….
part of this this was sad, eh?
in love with,
jealous for,
fighting over
the gift/a flower ….
instead of the Lover?
But then ….
‘Twas interesting to me that it was a white lily, cuz they always
put them into church buildings, using them for decoration during…
do you remember?
Easter.
Maybe the Bride is leaving Christendom during Easter? (Passover season?)
Maybe this “plucking up by the root” signifies that she is forever
done with Easter/Astarte (the false goddess thing) and with it yanked out by the root it will die!
Hallelu YAH! Now THAT is cause for celebration!
Heidi and Stuart you are on the right track with the barley harvest.
Take a look at the Forum article “Israel’s Three Feasts” and see how that compares with scripture.
dear Wayne ,the evolvement of all these false movements is an obvious sign of the REAL movement coming forth in this hour,my faith is deeply rooted in first love with Jesus Christ ,I hate flacks as much as you but will you know when the TRUE latterday rain comes or will you pooh pooh it ????? don’t miss the boat , search 4 the true annointing based in love ,suffering and death,but I spose we all KNOW it, but doing it is the hard part,
Wayne you say:
The revealed Word of God as contained in The Bible
JUDGE all things by the BIBLE alone and hold every teacher and preacher accountable to BIBLE standards
What are you going to do if you have no bible? What are you going to do in a time of persecution and travail and bibles are destroyed and burned or you are imprisoned with no bible and only memories of it in your heart and mind, how are you going to judge and hold teachers and preachers accountable then?
It is noble to know the word, follow Gods word and live life according to Gods word but unless you have the God of the word in your life and living deep in your heart, any depth of following the bible can become an idol in itself.
There was a time in the world when “the word, the bible” never existed and in that time people judged all things through relationship, relationship with the living God. There were those who did what was right in their own eyes and there were those who were righteous and walked with God but in either way you could judge the relationship with God by the fruit of these peoples life.
God doesn’t need a bible to reveal himself, he did it through a person, and and still does through the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the words in the bible.
Truly this wedding vision is being played out throughout the world. For the first time in my walk with the LORD, the typical “church membership and setting” has become foreign to me. All of my years walking with the LORD I have always found it safe and secure to be in a church with members and we meet every Sunday for a celebration. Now it appears that each of us must find our own WAY with HIM but in a LARGE church way – one with no walls and business plans and budgets and funding issues and repairs to be made and all the rest of business that needs more attention than HIM! This is coming from a man who has been brought up in a traditional American home with BBA, MBA and CPA plastered behind his name! This change in my life has been unsettling yet exciting. I am truly in need of becoming comfortable in the uncomfortable yet all the while knowing that I am loved beyond measure by my CREATOR!
Trei,
The scripturally ignorant and spiritually naive will be held repsonsible for their own spiritual condition and will have NO excuse.
Whatever circumstance you find yourself in you are still required to be faithful to the Word of God.
By what standard are you proposing to test whatever teaching comes into your head if your are prepared to dispense with HIS revealed Word and trust whatever it may be that you decide to trust?
Popery is an abomination and giving blind allegiance to people claiming to have “special anointings” is an absolute personal disgrace.
The genuinely saved will love the Word of God and be so well trained in what it actually says that they will be ready for all the persecution and BIBLE deprivation that may come their way.
I am aware of the apostate condition of the church at large primarily because of my love for GOD HIMSELF and therefore I have developed a very deep affection for HIS teachings.
You cannot please yourself as to what religious values apply to you and are pleasing to God. That is what Cain did for example.
God is sovereign and we are HIS creation. We must submit to HIS Word. Any suggestion that HE must submit to whatever we decide is appropriate is an appalling affront to our Creator.
If you neglect HIS Word and are then deprived of access to it you will only have yourself to blame for the judgement that will come upon you for choosing to engage in the resultant FALSE religion.
FALSE RELIGION WILL ALWAYS BE FALSE RELIGION
FALSE TEACHING WILL ALWAYS BE FALSE TEACHING
NO AMOUNT OF SCRIPTURAL IGNORANCE WILL CHANGE THAT
THE TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD WILL ALWAYS BE HIS TRUTH
NO AMOUNT OF SPIRITUAL NAIVETE WILL CHANGE THAT>
WE DECEIVE OURSELVES WHEN WE THINK THAT GOD DOES NOT CARE WHAT WE BELIEVE JUST SO LONG AS WE “FEEL GOOD.”
What a demonic suggestion that is.
We have far more tradition that we call church than most of us even know. For example, if you question Christmas, then most Christians will question whether you are even born again. Yet the celebration of Christmas is nowhere in scripture. And December 25th is (and always has been) the traditional birth day of the “SUN GODS” in every culture. The Roman Sun God “Mithra” has the birthday of December 25th (near the winter solstice), and got incorporated into Christianity by the Romans Catholic Church when Christianity became the official (political) religion of Rome. If the truth were known, Jesus was really born sometime around Sept/Oct (based on John the Baptist’s dad and when he served in the temple as the priest offering sacrifices). Christmas (like the day we celebrate the “Sabbath”) is a pagan practices adopted by the church during the time of the first couple of centuries of the founding of the Roman Catholic Church – and find not place in scripture. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong to celebrate Jesus’ birth or to worship on Sunday. It just means it’s not scriptural and when we make any doctrines a “fact” or a “truth” and people find out differently, they are disillusioned and will walk away from even what truth we do have because we have “mixed” truth and fable together. This is why people are leaving the church in droves (some just abandoning the faith – and some seeking solo scriptura in home groups). But God will call out His remnant from among mainline church. Here in America well over 75% claim to be Christians and go to church at some time during each year. Yet Jesus said that “few” follow the narrow path and will enter into His rest. Those “few” are separating away from the many as it had to happen at some point before His return.
Roger
When Jesus talked about heaven and earth passing away.
That is a good place to start. Look in the old testament and see who God says that is. I will give you a hint it is not the sky above or the ground under your feet. In the book of Revelation it says there is a new heaven and earth. Well if you knew who or what the old heaven and earth were from the old then you would know that there is aready a new heaven and earth even now. Just some simple stuff to find out that Jesus was not a liar when He said these things will happen to this generation and not 2000 years down the road somewhere. I do not have the time and this forum is not the place to teach all about these things. Ask God He should be in you and will lead you in learning to see that the kingdom of God has come. I am not lying to you and neither was Jesus. You will have to dig past the covering man has put over most bible translations to see the truth that lies in the scriptures. Act as if you really are looking for gold or your life depended on it . Guess what it does. To many look at the bible and fail to see who it was written to and the time it was written in. They see everything from thier own small little world and not from the one God intended. Do some seaching and do not be afarid to be wrong.
Revelation 2:1-7
(1) “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,’These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:
(2) “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
(3) and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary.
(4) Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
(5) Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
(6) But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, (FALSE TEACHERS) which I also hate.
(7) “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”‘
After identifying Himself to the Ephesians, Jesus begins His letter by informing the church that He knew their works, both collectively and individually (Revelation 2:2-3). He knew their attitudes, thoughts, desires, goals—everything about them! He knew their hearts better than they did, just as He knows ours today.
He tells them He was aware of everything they had gone through—how they had endured much persecution, suffering, and agony because of apostasy and intolerance.
He knew of their fortitude in standing for the truth and what a labor it was to persevere, though they never gave in to weariness.
He then mentions how they had rejected false leaders and their subversions. They would not listen to those who tried to pervert the truth and change doctrine, and they stood fast in opposing them once they found such to be liars. He knew how hard they tried to keep the laws and principles of the truth the true apostles had taught them.
In this description, as well as from the history of the first-century church from the book of Acts and the epistles of the apostles, we see a church that had fallen apart despite the strenuous efforts of some members to hang on to the truth. It was a church that had let something vital slip out of its grasp amidst the mounting trials and persecutions of the times.
Christ brings to their attention that they had lost their first love, the ardent desire to please God (verse 4). Their focus had shifted from where it should have been to the problems and the events happening around them. The strife generated by angry words, bad attitudes, friends and family leaving their fellowship, and teachings being changed took its toll on everyone. The byproducts that such turmoil produced were mistrust and suspicion.
As Matthew 24:12 says prophetically, “And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.”
Humanly, we might think that God would consider the Ephesians’ efforts to hang on to the truth against the apostasy as sufficient, but it is obvious that He does not. For our eternal good, He expects more of us. However, He does not leave us without guidance about how to recapture what we have lost.
Why is first love so important to God? First love is the purest kind of spiritual love we as humans can demonstrate. It is a love that truly shows one’s heart is completely given to God. What does first love produce? Paul answers in II Thessalonians 1:3:
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other.
He also writes in Hebrews 6:10,
For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
True love of God always promotes love of the brethren and love toward fellow man.
Roger- Thank you for taking the time to send me the links on ‘Replacement Theolog’; it was an interesting read I tell ya.
Upon reading them and knowing the word of God, I would have to put myself on the side of the ‘Replacement Theorists’ but a theme came to light on the pages you linked me to that I found astonishing. If one is a replacement theorist, then those people would automatically be anti-semitic. Wow…what a jump to a conclusion that was….I hope you don’t subscribe to that personally; in our brief chats I certainly don’t get that feeling.
A bit of a leap I’d say. :)
This thread is about the Bride leaving Christendom, which I already see in the ‘natural’, and with the teachings of Paul about the ‘True Jew’ in Romans, coupled with the always important thread of prophecy that runs from Genesis to Revelation, it bears itself to be true.
I’m not sure where the disconnect lies in some peoples minds, I can’t answer for them, but for me, it’s plain as day I guess. Abraham was a Gentile, thusly all were gentiles, whereas the term Jew was first used in the time of Solomon and bloodline clearly has no preferrential treatment or place in the Lords overall picture.
Israel is His portion, but the Lord does distinguish that term with Babylon, which is not His portion. We fall into one of the two groups and depending on our walk with the Lord, our placement ‘within’ the House of Israel is then found.
It’s all very interesting isn’t it? Thank you very much once again for providing me those links….I’ll have a better understanding now of what ‘christians’ are speaking of when they use the term and can now discuss the word of the Lord with them on a footing christians and myself will better understand.
In His Service,
Believer
Wayne
Your post just above is a very good one and is a nice suprise.
I knew even you had it in you Wayne. And every once in a while we all get to see Christ in you and not off some where in the future. Thanks Wayne
Dear David Larson,
Actually, our brother Wayne seldom if ever uses his own thoughts, but the thoughts of others that he gleans from the web. The letter that you discerned was Wayne’s, actually belongs to John O. Reid from bibletools, Header: Revelation 2:1-7.
Here’s the web site: http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/2082/Ephesian-Church.htm
Now pertaining to your allusions to “heaven and earth” being a person or entity, again your spiritual discerner is misplaced in your person. Roger Souden presents for your evaluation the Words of the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last Word of God, Jesus Christ:
in Matthew 5:17-18
The word “heaven” in the Greek is “Ouranos”. The definition is:
1. the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
a. the universe, the world
b. the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
c. the sidereal or starry heavens
2. the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings
The word for “earth” in Hebrew is “Ge”. The definition is:
1. arable land
2. the ground, the earth as a standing place
3. the main land as opposed to the sea or water
4. the earth as a whole
a. the earth as opposed to the heavens
b. the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
5. a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region
Robert Glen
I am not the one with allusions. You just speak as a natural man that is alright because i was not talking to you. The bible says that the natural man does not recieve the things of the Spirit and by your answer your prove out the scripture. As far as Waynes copy and paste I still like it and stand by what I said. My point was to encourage him as it seems no one is going to do any thing else I thought that might help. Something for you to think about if I have allusions about waht heaven and earth are about I come by them honestly I got them from my Father the creator of the heaven and the earth. If I was you next time I would study something a bit more then to just look to rip on someone.
My point is a indebt study of the old testament will show that while many times God was talking about the literal earth and the heavens above. There are a great many times He is talking about others things. There are times He refers to people as the stars of heaevn. The sand on the sea shore. Peoples as the sea
people as grass or trees. He more then a few times calls His covenant people the heavens and the earth. We are called His sheep and so was the early Jews. Or do we just think all talk of sheep means fury animals? If more would be willing to look and learn instead of poke and jab then just maybe God could grow up in a people and they could be all they are suppose to be in Christ. That is why so few understand the book of Revelation they think like natural men and fail to discern the symbols are all in the old testament but all they see is things in the natural. If the stras of the hevens fall to earth none of them would hit us they are millions of miles from here. Abraham was told His off spring would be like the stars of heaven. When they fell to earth was when they denied the Christ and now we in Christ will shine like the stars in the heavens. These things are the way God talks natural man only sees dirt that is where most are dwelling in the lower parts of the earth. They have yet to take their place with Christ in the heavens above the thoughts and ideas of carnal men.
Dear David Larson,
The point is; that you made reference to the “heavens and the “earth” being a single person or entity and gave no biblical reference to substantiate your alluded special knowledge from your Father. It would be most helpful to us that lack your spiritual insights, if you would give us scripture that would help to illuminate our minds.
I’ve studied to show myself approved, but I freely admit I don’t know it all. What I do know is a Love that passes all understanding and all knowledge, and that Love is centered in Christ Jesus, the Perfect Son of God, Who gave Himself for the world and me and you. God is Love and that Love in Christ Jesus is the Perfection of a son that is lacking in us all.
Now I have searched the scriptures, and none of the Hebrew, Greek words for heaven and earth correspond to any person. The first passage of scripture begins:
In the beginning, God (ALEPH א TAV ת) created the heaven (shamayim) and the earth (‘erets).
Of special note: In the opening passage in the book of Genesis, the Aleph א and the Tav ת, are set as markers in the middle of the declaration. To get our semantics right in the first and the last place, the Aleph, is the first letter in the Hebrew alphabet and biblically is represented by the first letter Alpha in the Greek alphabet; the last letter in the Hebrew alphabet is the Tav, and is represented by the last letter in the Greek alphabet, Omega. And the Lord’s Christ, Who is the Aleph Tav, says correspondingly in Revelation:
Revelation 1:8-11, and Isaiah 44:6-8.
The heaven (shamayim H8064) and earth (‘erets H776) which God established with His Word the Aleph Tav, the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, are established as His signature declaring God’s Glory and Power in the universe. You can look up for your selves in the concordance the full meanings of the words heaven and earth. Again none of the Hebrew and Greek words transliterate to heaven and earth speak of some entity.
David – you said to me: “They see everything from thier own small little world and not from the one God intended. Do some seaching and do not be afarid to be wrong”.
I have said before, either on this or another thread, that I am very open to being taught – I am continually seeking truth, which in my understanding is Jesus Christ. (John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.)
I have been wrong before, and given that 2 Tim. 3:16 says: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”
I am asking you for scriptural reference/proof to your doctrine, and the reason that I ask this is because I seek Truth, I no longer want man’s scriptures twisted to fit doctrine – I base my beliefs on Scripture.
This is my testimony, please confirm that it is yours:
1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the
world.
In Jesus Christ, who is the son of God, and is Alpha and Omega.
In His love and grace, Roger
Believer – yes my friend, anti-semitism it is !
To quote a scripture for you: Matt.16:17 “… for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven”.
Yes you are correct I do not support any form of anti-semitism – to do so is to go against a very serious warning from God:
Gen. 12:1-3 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Yes Believer it is all very interesting, and as world events unfold and Scriptural prophecies are literally fulfilled… we must all remain focussed on Jesus Christ our Saviour and Lord, and continually seek Him for all Truth. :-)
Blessings in Him, Roger
Roger and Robert
Do a google search on THE HEAVENS AND EARTH see what you come up with. Go from there this is not rocket science.
The truth is if you guys really wanted to know you would just have looked your self and not come up with all the cuts like are you even saved. And all the trick questions has Christ come in the flesh. Yes He has and now He the Christ lives in me and He is trying to get you to do some looking and feed your self. Have either of you guys even read the old testament? I am not trying to be funny I know many christians who have looked at it very little. Which is why it is a mystery to them. Believe it or not all things even the natural heavens and the earth were created by the word of God and therefore are covenant old and new are both filled with this lanuage all things were made by him and refelct his glory.
Oh and something eles guys this is not some special knowledge it should be commom knowledge I relly did not think it was that big of a deal.
David – It wasn’t a trick question my friend – the question was specifically: Has Jesus Christ come in the flesh.
Not just a Christ – there are many Christs, but only one Jesus Christ who came to Earth as flesh, God in the form of fleshly man.
I have looked on Google as you suggested – there is some scary stuff under ‘Heavens and Earth’. :-$ ..and I will stick to scripture and Jesus Christ as my source for truth, not google which can take you in the opposite direction..
In Jesus Christ my Lord,
Roger
Yes it is a trick question. Christians are always asking it to prove something they dont understand. And phoney believers are always telling people the answer you have given to decieve the simple minded. John 4:3 Talks about Jesus Christ coming in the flesh and verse 4 the very next ones tells why. Ye are of God, Little children and have overcome them because greater in he that is in you then he that is in the world. Even way back then they were playing this same game and what it got down to was who is in you. I have found over the years all sorts who could tell me that Jesus came many years ago. That is not a big deal and common knowledge. What is a big deal is has He come and does He the Christ of God live in you. That is where the rubber meets the road. And guess what those who are His are not afarid to look and seek because the greater one lives in them and they fear nothing. Like i said i was not wrong about you all you want to do is poke and jab. Oh and then you call that the love of God. Something else the is only one Christ of God there may be many who come saying they are Christ or in His name But there is only one Christ of God.
David Larson wrote:
Here are my thoughts on your erroneous assertion: The Lord Jesus Christ said, “I have not come to abolish” (the Law, or the prophets), “but to fulfill” (that is; the Laws righteous demands of complete obedience in love of God, and also the words of the prophets concerning Messiah). Furthermore the Lord says; “Till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven”. (Matthew 5:18-19.) From the Master’s Words, David Larson, it becomes evident that in any time period, it is not wise for kingdom people, who are saved by God’s grace, for them to preach or teach against the Commandments (that is also known as the Decalogue).
Further more, apart from Christ’s fulfillment of the prophets testimony of Him, many of their prophecies have not been fulfilled. Any one who would contradict the Word of God is not a true messenger of God, and will likely be the least in the kingdom to come.
David Larson wrote:
The words of Ezekiel in chapter 38 is not totally fulfilled and the rest of his latter prophecies concerning Israel and the latter days remain open. Most of the prophets have open prophecies that have yet to happen.
When you wrote Roger Souden you said:
David, you must not have read my last post, for I think it dealt sufficiently with the biblical etymology of the “heaven” and the “earth”.
David Larson wrote:
Now when scripture and a word study is not sufficient David, you want us to google what Father God has said to you.
In the Truth and the Love of Christ Jesus, Robert Glenn
It would seem that all you really want to do is make fools of your selves by all your little cutting remaks and have every one do the leg work for you. If you were serious you would do a little looking and be glad that someone pointed you in the right direction.
The truth is that is not what this is about. I am not not playing any more. So why dont you two go find someone else to pester. Wayne is a easy mark and most wont even care. As far as scripture being fulfilled those are only your thoughs and you are welcome to them that does not make them true.
David – for me, the truth is exactly what this is all about. I, like Thomas, have asked the question and Jesus Christ has answered:
John 14:5 “Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him”.
David, I continue to seek the truth, which is Jesus Christ – and because He is in me and I in Him – I can ask Him directly. He promised, and has fulfilled in me:
John 14:18-21 “I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”
Jesus also said: Matt.5:17-19 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
I am not just quoting these scriptures for fun, or to poke and jab at you David. I dont want to pester you, and I am certainly not playing. Any remark that I have made to you that is cutting, I apologise. Jesus Christ is my Life – all else is of self and flesh and leads to death. Jesus took sin/self/flesh to the cross and shed His blood as an atonement/final sacrifice, for me, for you, for all mankind.
In Jesus Christ, Roger
Dear Believer,
Roger Souden apparently gave you some links to help you to understand the the very questionable replacement theology. Below is a partial response I sent to a pastor of a Lutheran Church.
You wrote: Does Israel have a God given right to the land that God ascribed to them in the O.T. You said “no”. I’ve read the testament of God’s Word and God is the God of Covenant and He does not go back on His Word. What He has given, He does not take back, even in the failures of sinful mankind Jew or Gentile. It is written that the schismatic prophet Balaam said: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Below are a few of the many Scripture verses that uphold Father God’s love for the nation of Israel and His eventual plan for the salvation of its people with Israel’s right to the land.
Amos 9:13-15 (New International Version)
13 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills.
14 I will bring back My exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,” says the LORD your God.
Jeremiah 16:14-15 (New International Version)
14 “However, the days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when men will no longer say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ 15 but they will say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where He had banished them.’ For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers. Also Jeremiah 23:7-8 reiterates the same promise.
Jeremiah 31:35-37 (New International Version)
35 This is what the LORD says, He who appoints the sun to shine by day, Who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD Almighty is His Name:
36 “Only if these decrees vanish from My sight,” declares the LORD, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before Me.”
37 This is what the LORD says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD.
Interestingly the universe is seen as literally expanding without measured limits. For man to discover the foundations of the earth is an impossibility! Satan hates God and God’s covenant of truth with the Jews, and he will do what ever it takes to make God a liar. If Satan can destroy the Jew then he destroys the credibility of God and His holiness. If that were possible then the everlasting covenant in the Blood of Jesus Christ would not hold water. I don’t think you want to be an accomplice on the wrong side of that equation.
Romans 11:25-33 (New International Version)
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
”The deliverer will come from Zion; He will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all. See Isaiah 59:20-21
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[ knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
Jeremiah 33:23-26 (New International Version)
23 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 24 “Have you not noticed that these people are saying, ‘The LORD has rejected the two kingdoms He chose’? So they despise My people and no longer regard them as a nation. 25 This is what the LORD says: ‘If I have not established My covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them.’ “
The people of the nation of Israel are divided into 2 groups.
The FAITHFUL//BELIEVING, which are the generations of Abraham, and the UNFAITHFUL//UNBELIEVING. The promises of God were made to the FAITHFUL//BELIEVERS ONLY, whether you are a Jew by blood or a non-Jew. (Read Hebrews)
The UNFAITHFUL//UNBELIEVING ISRAELITES are the branches that were broken off from the olive tree and the root of Abraham. The FAITHFUL//BELIEVING ISRAELITES are branches that are STILL ATTACHED TO THE OLIVE TREE.
NO UNBELIEVERS, whether Jew or non-Jew, will inherit the promises of God, the Kingdom of God, or the Promised Land (which is Heaven/New Earth/Paradise).
BUT, you say, God will give the Jews a SECOND CHANCE!
The scriptures AGREE WITH YOU. That second chance was when Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came to the Hebrews/Israelites in the flesh; fulfilled all the prophecies of the coming Messiah; fulfilled all of the law; paid the penalty as the LAST SACRIFICE FOR SIN with His death; was buried; and rose from the grave in body, soul, and spirit; and sat upon the throne next to His Father.
For 2000+ years the Jews have had the EXACT SAME SECOND CHANCE AS THE REST OF THE PEOPLE ON EARTH.
Repent of your sins and believe Jesus Christ is your Savior/Messiah and surrender to Him as Lord of your life.
Jew and non-Jew pay the same penalty for their sins if they refuse to acknowledge Jesus for who He is and, they refuse Jesus’ offer of Grace and Forgiveness.
When it comes to the Jews in the world, unfortunately the so called “church institutes” have not been obeying Jesus’ directive to “go into ALL the world and make disciples….”
Once “the fullness of the gentiles” comes to pass, there will be no more second chances for ANYONE to have the free gift of Grace, Forgiveness, and Salvation by Faith.
Awesome word Wayne when you were talking about the church of Ephesus and Love!
God is changing your heart! Keep letting go of that fear, brother.
Robert- Thank you for your reply and your quotes in explaining what you believe.
While I certainly agree modern day Israel has every right to exist where it is, and I support Israel for her democracy and freedom she offers to Arab, Christian & Jew alike. But I disagree on the premise that modern Israel some kind of fullfillment of prophecy when all the pieces of the prophecy are not together in this.
Israel herself was a creation of the UN, not an organization that commands any respect. The flag of the nation has an emblem that is called the Star of Remphan, not even a Jewish symbol (The Menorrah is the symbol..the lampstand that sits beside the throne of God.) demonstrates spiritually, what is going on there. The majority of the ‘jewish’ population are Ashkenasi, a people from eastern europe that converted to Judaism centuries ago. They geneologically, not be of the blood referred to in the prophecy.
Although I shouldn’t have to say it; I am not anti-semitic and pray all the Jewish people come to the Lord before it’s too late. Bloodline doesn’t count.
Isaiah 42:1 NKJV Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whim My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him, He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.” 6 “….I , the Lord, have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the Gentiles.”
The Lord calls His people by righteouness, very clear and precise, unchanging in His Word. If the Lord call His own by righteousness, where does bloodline fit into this equation?
There are more parts to the prophecies surrounging the Promised Land which are important in order to the prophecy to be absolutely correct and accurate. It is correct and accurate, but has to applied in it’s fullness. Israel in the Promised Land, is to have a King over her and there will be peace in the land. Of the many other parts to this prophecy, this alone as major components, doesn’t line up with what many christians believe to be true today.
Support Israel, by all means; I do too, but it’s important to understand all the depth & enormity of the simple truth in His Word that is demonstrated over and over again.
The Bride, is not a ‘christian’ Bride, but one who looks only to her lover, Her Beloved, for whom the Lord our God was always looking for an acceptable partner for His only Son, so that the fruit of the marriage will produce pure Sons of God in the Spirit. This is why Revelation speaks of the role of the Bride and the Witnesses, the importance of churches such as Philadelphia, from where the Bride emerges as the Lord has nothing against her. It speaks of the final Apostolic Church, the revived Church to which the article we’re commenting on reflects and speaks of. Verse 9 of Chapter 3 in Revelation speaks a very direct statement which again, refutes the bloodline theologies which just don’t bear out in prophecy. It says, “Indeed I will make those of the syngogue of Satan, who say they are Jews & are not, but lie–indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.”
Now that’s a provocative statement, but loaded at the same time. What ‘Jews’ is the Lord referring to then? Yet the name Jew was used, but it isn’t in the bloodline capacity as the verse also points to the Bride as being the one He loved. See Song of Solomon, it’s the story of the Bride & Bridegroom.
You have to understand that the whole purpose of our lives on this planet is to return to the Lord, to be an acceptable spouse to the living Son, Jesus, to produce the fruit of this marriage, the first fruits which are the Lords, as He sweeps up the child away from Satans jaws and keeps the child with Him in the throne room.
When we become His, He breathes the Spirit of Life back into us, which is taken from us the minute we are born because of our sinful pre-condition. We are the adopted Sons of God, but the Bride is Philadelphia in a Spiritual union with the Lord.
The modern jewish nation indeed has a role in the end times to play, a very important one, but no special bloodline status will ever get them into the Kingdom of God. The Lord divorced them; they it made but being the ‘stiff necked’ people they were, they could never produce the Lord requires of us.
We do agree on the condition of Grace. “No man comes to the Father but by Me.”
One last interesting point for ya. Israel today, the nation, sits on a portion of what was once the Garden of Eden. Isn’t that the goal? To return to the Promised Land in the Spiritual condition required by our Lord Jesus?
@Happy Trails. Bravo…good for you! :)
Shout it in the mountain tops!
How on earth did this thread get hijacked onto
“Replacement Theology” arguments?
Please – back to the Topic at hand!!
-Andrew
Believer said:
“One last interesting point for ya. Israel today, the nation, sits on a portion of what was once the Garden of Eden. Isn’t that the goal? To return to the Promised Land in the Spiritual condition required by our Lord Jesus?”
Happy trails says to Believer:
This was just revealed to me this week! All the pieces are coming together. Shalom
People – am I missing something here..?? I haven’t read a comment where someone has said that anyone, Jew or Gentile, would be ‘saved’ without being ‘born again’..?
There are ‘born again’ believers in Israel now, sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ to all – and there are ‘Messianic Jews’ doing the same – for His Glory, and for His names sake they are persecuted.
My understanding is as Jesus said in John 3:3-7 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of
the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again”.
Jesus is the only Way, the only Truth and all Life.
I have said I do not believe in Replacement Theology or any form of anti-semitisim. I do believe that ‘Israel’ and Jerusalem are being fought over for a spiritual reason – the nations of ‘Ishmael’ are gathering against ‘Isaac’, and their focus is Jerusalem. Could that be because the Ishmaelites believe that Jerusalem has some importance..? They have bricked up the Eastern gate and made a cemetary in front of it, my understanding is that they have done this because they believe Jesus will return to Jerusalem through that gate.
My friends, we need to move on to a place where if we are truly born again of Gods Holy Spirit, and He indwells us – we will move in unity and love, the Love which is Jesus our Saviour and Lord, and we must continually point the way to Him and Him alone.
Do we all truly believe that: “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.” John14:6-7
Can we believe and agree on that…?
Then lets shout that to the world.. :-)
Robert says:
“Regarding Matthew 5:17-19
The word “heaven” in the Greek is “Ouranos”. The definition is:………”
Unfortunately Robert you did not got into Vine’s detailed verse by verse usage of each definition of this word.
In Matthew 5:16 & 18, the word “Ouranos” is defined as:
“THE DWELLING PLACE OF GOD”…it comes from the root word that means “MOUNTAIN”.
In Hebraic prophetic language, the word mountain is referring to KINGDOM or CITY.
Robert…Matthew 5:18 uses the word “pass” in its comparison with the “eternal dwelling place of God” and every jot and tittle of the MORAL LAW. The word “pass” used in this context is a METAPHOR, NOT a LITERAL passing away or perishing.
Merriam Webster defines
met·a·phor:
noun ˈme-tə-ˌfȯr also -fər
Definition of METAPHOR
1
: a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly : figurative language — compare simile
2
: an object, activity, or idea treated as a metaphor : symbol 2
— met·a·phor·icˌme-tə-ˈfȯr-ik, -ˈfär- or met·a·phor·i·cal -i-kəl adjective
— met·a·phor·i·cal·ly-i-k(ə-)lē adverb
Examples of METAPHOR
1. “He was drowning in paperwork” is a metaphor in which having to deal with a lot of paperwork is being compared to drowning in an ocean of water.
In Matthew 5:18, Jesus is being DEROGATORY OR FACETIOUS with the Pharisees who PRIDE THEMSELVES IN “OBEYING” EVERY JOT OR TITTLE OF THE LAW.
What Jesus is doing is setting up a HIGHER STANDARD THAN THEIR “OBEDIENCE”. He is REQUIRING THAT ALL MANKIND NOW HAS TO FULFILL THE LAW!!!
Obedience came to an end, when Christ set a higher standard of righteousness which He called “FULFILLING THE LAW”
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall EXCEED [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus continues to lay out the higher standard that is now required throughout the rest of chapter 5……ending with the BIG GOTCHA!
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Of course, no man, except Jesus, could possibly meet this new standard. OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW ENDED AS A WAY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jesus has now introduced a HIGHER STANDARD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HE FULFILLED IT, AND IT WAS IMPUTED UPON ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE HE IS THEIR SAVIOR BY FAITH.
We learn later on, that as we follow by faith, live by faith, walk by His Spirit, righteousness is manifested in us.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith:FOR WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN.
Hbr 11:6 BUT WITHOUT FAITH, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE HIM (GOD)
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.(be held accountable for ALL…EVERY JOT AND TITTLE)
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 ¶ For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Robert Glenn writes:
Romans 11:25-33 (New International Version)
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
”The deliverer will come from Zion; He will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.
Jeremiah 33:23-26 (New International Version)
23 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 24 “Have you not noticed that these people are saying, ‘The LORD has rejected the two kingdoms He chose’? So they despise My people and no longer regard them as a nation. 25 This is what the LORD says: ‘If I have not established My covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them.’ “
Happy Trails comment to Robert Glenn:
Jeremiah 33 above is God telling them He WILL keep His covenant and will not reject EITHER kingdom. THIS PROMISE WAS FULFILLED IN JESUS, THE MESSIAH, WHEN HE CAME TO THE JEWS FIRST. SOME OF THEM REJECTED HIM AS THE PROPHESIED MESSIAH, THEREFORE, THEY WERE BROKEN OFF FROM THE OLIVE TREE.
STILL YET, Christ said the DOOR to salvation is still open to the Jews that have been broken off, but it is far more difficult now that He is no longer with them physically.
When unbelievers are born again (both Jew and non-Jew), they become branches that are grafted into the olive tree with the root of Abraham (the father of ALL the faithful of many nations).
There are MANY BRANCHES.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
Oops…Sorry Andrew. I have been working on that comment for awhile and did not read the updated comments before pushing the Post button.
That is OK
Please – back to Topic, guys!
HappyTrails
Thank you for a start to any who care to learn about where and who the true heavens and earth are today.
We are the dwelling place of God or the new heavens and earth.
Old covenant or the old heavens and earth where God dwelt with a people. The new covenant is where God dwells in a people and we are that people. Many things in the bible are shadows of things that are in the spirit and have there fullfillment in Christ.
We are the temple now and God Himself dwells in us through His word the Christ of God. And this is the church with out spot or wrinkle and sister I am glad you are part of it.
This is what we Christians are really good for, dominating, arguing, preaching our righteousnes to ourselves, even mispresenting the views, quoting out of context to prove a point, some going to extraordinary lengths.
Its a sad state of affairs, Andrew. And it goes on & on,
I wonder what will happen if Jesus shows up right now in the midst of all this confusion and arguments that we seem to put our names to and behind a disguise as well.
Is this what Jesus taught us to do in the last days? Or is this exactly as written by James, Peter and John before His second coming?
But this is what happens when we go chasing for signs and wonders to reaffirm what it is already written in scriptures.
When will we change our ways?
2 Peter 1:19
And so we have the prophetic word made sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining to a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
20
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.
You know what is really sad is that so many are waiting for a physcial Jesus as if Christ in you is not enough.
Christ in Jesus is all God needed to do all He did in Jesus.
Christ in all true believers is far more then most think.
The jews looked at Jesus and said that is not God in a man that is the devil and killed Him.
We look at the church and say the same thing.
In stead of looking at the natural sky and expecting a redemer
Look in the heavens that is in you and just maybe you will see the king of glory coming in power riding on the wings of the wind of the Spirit and you may have an idea of what God is doing in this time. It is Christ in you the called out ones if you will only believe what has been written and not all the lies that tell you someday. Today is the day will the real called out ones please stand up.
I still fail to see any validity to the nation Israel being something ‘special’ in today’s world, other than it is a creation of the man made UN; when it is very clear the crossover blessing goes from first son to 2nd son, over and over again.
The Bride is not ‘christian’ and has already ‘left the building’ so to speak in relating it to the term ‘christian’ and what her awesome and powerful role will be in the first 3 1/2 yrs of the tribulation period.
To refer to someone as being ‘anti-semitic’ because of a major disagreement on prophecy and theology, smacks of intolerance and political correctness, which of course goes hand in hand, but in this case, it is unwarranted. Being an ‘anti-semite’ is a serious charge in the spiritual and secular worlds; I haven’t seen anyone advocating for the destruction of the citizens of the State of Israel nor any derrogatory remarks made against the ‘jewish’ people.
The Bride will be recognized as being a True Jew as explained by the Apostle Paul and verified through thousands of years of prophecy which points directly to her as the last voice of truth in a spiritually dark world. The word is her spiritual authority and only because the Lord has opened it up to her; no man made theological school will ever attain that status and have the full understanding of His word that runs so deep and constantly validates itself with its built in prophecy. “The testimony of Jesus IS the Spirit of prophecy.” Rev 19:10.
Andrew, I think some discussion on the alleged ‘replacement theories’ have some validation within the topic of the Bride who leaves Christendom, in order to better recognize who exactly the Bride is and will be. Not to say that this should overshadow the discussion of the Bride leaving the christian church, but it does play a role.
In His Service,
Believer
Believer
I do believe you are truly on to something some would do to listen.
Believer….AMEN AMEN AMEN
God has been purifying my belief system this summer along these same lines. I have no idea why He is taking me in this direction, I have never been interested at all in the popular “movements” . I’ve just been plodding along walking by the Holy Spirit; being used wherever He leads to whomever He leads; through seasons of purification; seasons of revelation; seasons of harvest……………then
this summer WOW…Its been a season of surprises.
Believer – if you have a read of some of the very recent forum topics, you will see that ‘replacement’ and ‘lost tribes’ are, or have been discussed fully there.. with full scripture reference which may answer your concern about whether Israel is special or not.
Back to the thread – In the context of the vision, I believe that those who are born-again of the Holy Spirit of God have left, or are in the process of leaving, religious churchianity.
Those of Christ Jesus are already leaving/have left those who are antichrist.
Those who accept Christ Jesus as all truth, are leaving the teachings of self and flesh.
Whatever words we use to describe the groups of people – it has always been Christ versus antichrist (opposed to Christ), and the western so called civilised churchy world is perhaps the last to do this… may God forgive us and have mercy, and continue to call us unto Him.
In Jesus, Roger
Anti christ really means something other then Christ.
While opposed to Christ may be true that is not the real thought
When the word is used in scripture which only happens in the books of John. What it really means is something that all will think is the real thing but is really against the real Christ. Anti or something other then. It is not a single person somewhere waiting to be a world leader. While it can be one person it is more likley a lot of persons and most do not know they are anti or against the real Christ. The reason they dont know is because they are convinced they are the real thing. Which is why in the book of John he gives a test to see who is and who is not. The test is has He Christ come in the flesh? The correct answer is yes because greater is He the who lives in me then he who lives in the world. Which is why Jesus said be of good cheer I have overcome the world and because I have you will. How is that becaues I will come again and live in you. And that is the gospel that Paul preached. Which was Christ in you the hope of glory.
And the major part of the so called body of Christ continues to look for something that has alredy happened. They continue to miss read scripture and not see what is really written. Unknowily
they become the very thing they think everone else is anti-christ
something other then the real. By the simple fact they either do not relize Christ dwells in them and they are the dead in Christ or they are just reliougs people thinking that if Jesus comes back all will be well. Either way the true church are those who have the life of God Christ in them and know that this is truly what the good news is all about. And right now they are sounding am alarm for those who have ears to hear come out from amoung them and be seperate. Those who are truly Gods and know Him as Father will hear others will see these peopel as someone sent to spoil there deal and most will think they are not even saved. The reason is they think they are for all their quoting of scriptures they must truly know God. It was these kind of people who killed our savior and they continue to do so to all those He Christ dwells in. Well any way the alarm will sound for a while more those who have ears to hear wil the rest will fall with those who walk in darkness. They will always be waiting and never come to the place where they know God He will always be tommorow. They will talk about Jesus and the Holy Spirit but very few will say Father Father.
The term Anti Christ actually refers to an alternative Christ. Anyone or any thing which presents itself as an alternative to Christ is anti christ.
The apostate latter rain church which teaches that TRUTH does not matter for salvation because people simply need to belong to “the church” to be saved is an example of what the bible refers to as anti christ.
I would have to say that there is something in what you have to say Wayne. And you continue to suprise me. Is it possible that beneth all that cutting and pasteing there is a true brother in Christ? And not just someone who quotes a bunch of scriptures
I know we are to love all and that is easy for most to say and not really mean it. But it is not so easy to find those you like. They are more likley to be the real thing. I find myself likeing you latley Wayne I hope you dont mind.
David
My position has NOT varied since I first accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour many years ago and commenced reading, studying and learning to live in accordance with the clear teachings of the Word of God alone.
My spiritual heroes have been the great reformers of the Reformation and I abhor the way their work is being undone so that christians are being taken back by stealth to the middle age bondages of the medieval Roman Catholic or state sanctioned church.
Scriptural ignorance and spiritual naivete is everywhere.
People who think they are christian are totally committed to doctrines of demons and refer to demonic activity as a move of God.
This is surely the spirit of anti christ at work in the world today.
The Bible warns repeatedly that many will fall away and follow after false teachers and false christs and that the delusion will get so bad that God will shorten the days in order to save the very elect from being deceived.
By the grace of GOD I will NOT change until the Judgement Day.
Your change of heart towards me can only be an indication that you are actually reading what I am writing and are able to appreciate the consistent application of BIBLE teaching and principles.
I would find that very pleasing.
Deuteronomy 32:4
Our God is a God of truth. He is the Rock, the immovable Foundation of this way of life. The Hebrew word for “Rock” indicates firmness, stability, and faithfulness. What would it be like to worship a God whose “truth” changed from time to time?
Could such a God be trusted?
The Greek word for “True” in Revelation 19:11 means much the same thing, but it carries the additional sense of “real” or “genuine.”
There is nothing—absolutely nothing—false, deceitful, evasive, or variable in His character, His Word, or His example.
The Rapture:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (New International Version)
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
This passage describes a miraculous event when Christ will descend from the heavens towards the Earth.
Conservative Protestants believe that “born again” Christians who have previously died will be resurrected, rise from their graves, and ascend to meet Jesus in the sky.
Immediately afterwards, “born again” Christians who had not died will also suddenly ascend into the air on their way to heaven.
The BIBLE clearly teaches the literal Return Of Christ so that settles it any teaching to the contrary is FALSE and must be rejected by faithful christians.
Satan introduced heresy into human life through Adam and Eve when he induced them to sin by telling them, “You will not surely die” (Genesis 3:4). They believed this perversion of God’s truth, and upon sinning, the destructive course began. By being cast from the Garden of Eden, they were almost immediately separated from God. They did not live and prosper as Satan’s cruel perversion led them to believe. Instead, the Devil exploited them through their innocence and desires, and through sin they became his slaves. Hundreds of years later, they died just as God said they would.
The Devil’s attempts to deceive through false teaching have never stopped. Jesus warned in Mark 13:22 that, as we approach the end, it will be especially intensive; “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” He warns that, if it is possible for us to be deceived, we will be deceived by false doctrines.
Wayne
Believe it or not it is not really about all your bible teaching.
Every once in awhile you say something apart from all the scripture that makes me think that you really might be one of the things you come against so often. A true son of God one who is coming alive in Christ and being raised up to sit with Him in the heavens. I know who I am and who I have been sent to. What is funny is most of them have been so covered in church talk and thought they barley know who they are themselves. I am thinking this may be the case with you. If yes then amen if no then keep on preaching any way. I will say this though you do much better when you just say something then when you add all the cut and paste. I believe some others have noticed this to .Apart from all you have learned it may be that Christ Gods word in you has more to say then all else. Hay Wayne I think we are being friends.
David Larsen
The Word of God is far more significant than anything mere man may come up with.
You are personally corrupted towards latter rain and other man centred ideologies and carnal philosophies and this is the very same sort of deception Satan used on Eve in the Garden
Your attempts at flattery are an absolute insult to any genuine man or woman of God.
You and your religion MUST be REJECTED totally by all who will avoid the coming judgement of God.
As with the false apostles in Bible days whom Paul and other genuine apostles denounced openly, you clearly believe your personal revelation is superior to the Word of God itself.
Consequently your religion is NOT based on the Word of God and is therefore FALSE.
You are a peddler of false religion and a menace to people who might be open to the true Gospel message.
I urge you to repent of your self promotion and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ before it is too late for you.
You cannot save yourself!
Happy Trails,
You are indeed doing what the Lord has desired for us since the beginning; that being closely attentive to the move of the Holy Spirit, the direction He leads us in and the obedience to His prompting.
This is a ‘wilderness’ experience for you where His people are in a state of purifying themselves spiritually in order to move into the Kingdom as demonstrated by the Exodus, but for others, it is a testing ground to see if his or her works will stand up to the test of fire. Not all make it.
Continue to walk close to Him Happy Trails…you are certainly on the right path; that being the narrow one. :)
Roger,
No, I haven’t read many of the other threads as I first responded to the Bride leaving Christendom, but have not had the time to delve into other areas.
I would still challenge the concept that the modern nation of Israel is some kind of fulfillment of prophecy when I’ve already pointed out, and would have liked to have done so when the intial discussion was being done, that it doesn’t fulfill all the requirements of the prophecies which is vital. Remember, Satan is a counterfeiter of the highest order and does use some truth in his lies in order to trap those who may not have understanding of His word. It’s a topic I’m sure that will be discussed several times in the coming months and years and the end times unwind to it’s ultimate conclusion. :)
David
Many have ears to hear just as much as so many others do not. As a non-christian believer over the past 7 yrs, I have learned that I had to empty myself of everything I once understood as truth that was taught to me while in ‘churchianity’ so that He can put in what was removed, solely based on His truth. I’m no Paul, but he himself had to be emptied of all the religious teachings he had grown up with in order for the Lord to use him. Paul had a heart of David & it is this heart response that the Lord seeks. Couple that with boldness as my namesake Stephen had, it’s a winning combo to witness His truth to a darkening world in religious corruption and spiritual blindness.
Wayne,
I’m sure this topic has been talked to death on this site, I’ve not participated as I’ve only re-discovered the site in the past week, but the ‘pre-trib’ rapture and the inevitable use of 1 Thess 4 doesn’t fully explain the position of a pre-trib situation. It points out only that the dead in Christ will rise first and those that remain will be taken up to be with Him. No where does it mention before the ultimate testing of who’s foundation we have built our spiritual lives on, that believers will not have to go thru the testing period.
Revelation speaks of the ‘rapture’ in regards to the witnesses of the end. The two witnesses (the Spirit of Moses & Elijah) are finally silenced half way thru the trib and then are raised up into heaven in front of the eyes of the whole world. Interestingly, the two witnesses is also the Bride, who has left Christendom and who has a role to play as the final voice of truth before final judgement.
I’m sure another discussion will occur and will be warranted when the time approaches. :)
In His Service,
Believer
Sorry, but the Lord does not speak to anyone. There exists no personal God. Perhaps he listened to his Higher Self, but that´s it.
John 15:18-21
“If the world hates you, remember that the world hated me first.
If you belonged to the world, then the world would love you like it loves its own people. But I have chosen you out of the world. So you don’t belong to the world. That is why the world hates you.
Remember the lesson I told you: A servant is not greater than his master. If people did wrong to me, then they will do wrong to you too. And if people obeyed my teaching, then they will obey yours too. People will do all this to you because of me. They don’t know the One who sent me.
The latter rain heresy has lead the church into apostasy and thereby into associating with false Gods and associated demonic activity.
This spiritual whore dom is the foundation of the harlot church which is deceiving and has already deceived many people into forfeiting their eternal salvation in favour of earthly delusion.
Genuine believers MUST have NOTHING whatsoever to do with this
and are warned to “come out from among them and touch NOT the unclean thing and I will receive you and willl be a father to you.”
According to Bible prophecy this delusion is so effective that God must intervene to avoid losing the every elect.
God shortens the days for the sake of the elect.
Scripture references such as these, combined with the realization that throughout the world and history genuine believers have always faced persecution make me acutely aware that something particularly cataclysmic will occur to usher in what the bible refers to as the great tribulation which is different from the ongoing persecutions of history
John 17:14-15
I have given them Your teaching and the world has hated them. The world hated these men, because they don’t belong to the world, the same as I don’t belong to the world. I am not asking you to take them out of the world, I am asking that you keep them safe from the Evil One (the devil)..
This is the only way we will be able to differentiate between this Great Tribulation and all of the other periods of persecution that have continued throughout history.
This cataclysmic event is the removal, at the rapture of the saints, of the Holy Spirit resident in ALL true believers so that the restraining influence in the world is removed and evil is given its final opportunity before being finally crushed by the hand of God after HE has achieved HIS purposes of testing and confirming the faithfulness of those claiming to belong to HIM.
God then resumes dealing with the nation Israel and the 40 week prophecy of Daniel is once again active after having been suspended at the time of the crucifixion of Christ.
True believers are raptured by God not only to avoid the terrible persecution that is coming and MUCH of it from the FALSE church itself but also to avoid succumbing to the delusion which has over run the apostate latter rain church committed to ecumenical unity at the expense of Bible TRUTH.
BIBLICAL AUTHORITY IS CLEARLY THE POINT OF DEPARTURE BETWEEN THE TRUE CHURCH AND THE HARLOT CHURCH.
These deluded individuals believe they are receiving revelation from God which is un biblical anti biblical and/or extra biblical and they are leading those who follow them into their novel religion to HELL.
This delusion will continue to run rampant until the Lord puts an end to it.
The only way to avoid this coming judgement is to remain FAITHFUL to HIS Word.
The HOLY Spirit CONFIRMS THE WORD OF GOD
The Spirit of ANTI CHRIST CONTRADICTS THE WORD OF GOD
DOCTRINES OF DEMONS LEAD TO DEMONIC ACTIVITY
FALSE TEACHERS MISREPRESENT DEMONIC ACTIVITY AS A MOVE OF GOD
Wayne- Where did this all come from? What prompted you to post this?
Believer,
Wayne said: “Genuine believers MUST have NOTHING whatsoever to do with this and are warned to “come out from among them and touch NOT the unclean thing and I will receive you and will be a father to you.”
Wayne is shouting a warning and those that have ears to hear will hear.
Roger,
Thanks for the clarificatin Roger, I do hope that was Wayne’s intent; it just seemed to come out of nowhere and didn’t make any sense in it’s message, at least to me.
Going back through the last few posts, I’m not sure what it is that he is calling ‘unclean’. Any true believer would keep away from things that are unclean, at least the mature ones, but when so many are still stuck in ‘religion’ and it is unclean, then it makes me ask…what specifically is the purpose of the warning; which in itself is correct.
I wondered if it might be my response that there is no pre-trib rapture.
How did you take it specifically?
Thanks.
Believer
(Context gets lost on posts like we’re doing, and the tone of a message can easily be misconstrued as being harsh when it is not)
Believer,
- You already see and hear the warnings many do not.
- You have already obeyed the call to ‘Come out of her my people..” many have not.
- You ‘see’ the unclean, many can’t
Sorry, that all sounds a bit ‘mystical’ doesn’t it..? If we as individuals are truly focussed on, and KNOW Jesus Christ (tunnel vision type focus) and ‘pressing’ into Him, then ‘self’ is being reduced, so we ‘hear’ His voice speaking. If we are still fleshly, even though we know about Jesus, we may not hear His voice, or not recognise it, because of the ‘call’ of those things that build up ‘self/flesh’.
Yes, context can get lost – Wayne – I dont sense harsh, I sense frustration for those who cannot (or willnot.?) listen…
Believer, if you mean how do I take your comment re pretrib rapture..? Thats a whole new thread – you could sign in and start that in the forum..?
I do believe that the ‘Body of Christ’ IS coming out (being called out) of the religious system of man, and into that personal relationship with Jesus Himself. Partly, because of the deception and false teaching that is rampant, and partly as a preparation for the persecution during the great trib. – it may well be that many who are deceived at the moment will have their eyes and ears open at that time.. I pray so.
I can only see from Scripture that the “..gathering together unto him..”(rapture) in 2 Thess: 2:1 doesnt happen until after “…for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” of verse 3.
After that time, things get worse and can be seen as the ‘Day of the Lord’…
As I say thats really a new thread..
In Jesus,
Roger
Roger,
Your input is appreciated and I thank you for doing so.
A new thread may be needed and maybe I’ll have to sign up. lol. I hate these dang passwords and log ins of which each and every user of a computer probably has at least 2 dozen to remember. lol.
Of course it lines up with scripture. The original scriptures never mention Christianity.
Isaiah writes:
Isa 46:9 Remember former things from forever; for I am God, and no other is God, even none like Me,
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure
Verse 10′s Hebrew reads ‘from out of the beginning’. What is the beginning if not the first book of Torah we call Genesis.
So if one wants to understand the end (Revelations) one is advised to understand Genesis. It’s not possible for a non Hebrew speaking person with a Platonic (linnear) mindset to understand Genesis without referring to ’scribes instructed in the kingdom of heaven’ as Y’shua puts it in Mat13:52.
Christianity on the other hand would have us believe that the Torah of Y’shua (law, commandments, instructions, etc) have been done away with.
Just as the 2 millenniums of the ‘Jews’ was neccessary for us to understand who Y’shua (Jesus) really is, so the 2 millenniums of the foolish, lawless (Deu32) Gentiles was necessary for us to understand that the wild olive branch must be grafted into the true olive (Israel) and start obeying Y’shua’s commandments the way He would expect of a spotless bride.
The original bride, a mixed multitude that Y’shua arranged into twelve orderly tribes of Israel, was betrothed to Y’shua under the hupa of Mt Sinai. She then broke her vows and was sent away with a promise that she would be restored. Y’shua’s blood was been spilled for her in order specifically to satisfy His law. Israel is being restored as the virgin bride. The final marriage ceremony will take place under the hupa of Mt Zion. After that she will abide (live in His house) with Him forever.
To remain a lawless, wild branch gentile Christian makes no sense … there will be no gentile gate in the new Jerusalem …. if you want to marry Y’shua when He returns, get grafted into His Israel (the real Israel … not the secular version). It’s part of keeping one’s lamp trimmed
“THE BRIDE Will LEAVE CHRISTENDOM”
-Vision by Wayne Thomas.
YES – SUCH A VISION IS ALSO SEEN IN SWEDEN !!!.
Arne Strand. Sweden.
“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling
away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…” (2 Th 2:3 NKJV)
In 1948 a movement was born that has become the foundation of the great apostasy that the Apostle
Paul warned us would come prior to the return of our Lord. Known as the New Order of the Latter Rain or
just the Latter Rain Movement its influence has steadily grown within the Pentecostal and Charismatic
Churches since 1948. Today, through the influence of various “revivals” its leaven is spreading even further
into the Evangelical world.
An apostasy or “falling away” is essentially a rebellion of God’s people against His Word. It would
be within the Latter Rain “revival” which broke out in North Battleford, Saskatchewan, in 1948 that the last
great rebellion against the word of God would be birthed. It is my belief that this movement has ushered in
the very apostasy that the Apostle Paul warned would come.
Rebelling against the New Testament picture of the Church in the last days as a despised remnant of
the faithful holding on until the rapture, they began to develop a heretical doctrine of a triumphant Church –
conquering the world and bringing in the kingdom of Christ. The first time the Church adopted such a
theology it resulted in the development of Roman Catholicism and ushered in the Dark Ages. This time the
result will be much the same but of a much shorter duration. It will produce the one-world ecumenical
church, “The Great Harlot” that will triumph for a short time under Anti-Christ – “Drunken with the blood of
the saints and martyrs of Jesus.”
It came to be taught that the “Latter Rain revival of 1948 was to be the first in a series of
“restorational moves of God” that would restore to the Church all of the truths that Satan had “robbed” her
of. The five-fold ministries of apostles and prophets would also be restored to the church. These restored
“apostles” and “prophets” would lead the Church into “present truth” and the “last great moves of God.”
Eventually when the Church was mature enough the “rapture” would occur. But the rapture of the Latter
Rain would be a much different rapture than the Church had ever taught before. It would be a “spiritual”
coming of Christ into His Church, His “corporate body.” A “corporate anointing.” The saints would be
“glorified”, even “deified” – right here on this earth. This overcoming army of saints believes it will go
forth conquering and triumphing over all of it’s enemies in the Great Tribulation. When they are done Christ
will be “released from the heavens”, to come and take control of the kingdom they have established.
This doctrine is known as the “Manifest Sons of God” or “Sonship” and has spread throughout the
Evangelical Church through the Charismatic and Kingdom/Dominion Movements. The Latter Rain
“revivals” that are occurring in Toronto, Pensecola, and various other places are popularizing and spreading
this heresy at an alarming rate. It is known popularly today as “Joel’s Army”. Thousands of Christians are
coming into a strong delusion because they did not receive the love of the truth. While they may have
received the truth, they did not have a love for it and have therefore fallen away from it. They are trading
their blessed hope for an earthly delusion.
The Gnostic heretics of the first century gained many converts. So did the later Arian heretics. Did
this make their rising up within the midst of the church “moves of God”? No! The Holy Spirit is still the
Spirit of truth. Until our Lord returns, and we rise up to meet Him in the clouds at the rapture – let us
remember His admonition to the faithful Philadelphian Church:
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall
come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast
what you have, that no one may take your crown.” (Rev 3:10,11 NKJV)
Remember – “He who endures to the end shall be saved.”
“Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.”
The Latter Rain prophets are right about one thing – doctrine divides. Truth separates the wheat from
the chaff. In the early Church the Apostles kept the deceivers and false apostles out. They did this by
publicly identifying the heretics and warning the sheep of their false doctrines. Because of the diligence of
the true apostles of our Lord, the false apostles and their followers were forced to leave the Church. The
Apostle John writes:
“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many
antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not
of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might
be made manifest, that none of them were of us.” (1 John 2:18,19 NKJV)
Today we face just the opposite situation in that the false prophets and apostles are in the majority in
many churches. When they gain inroads into a church it’s more likely that only a minority will reject their
false doctrines, revelations, and counterfeit “anointing” and stand on the Bible, being forced to go out from among the apostate majority.
The LORD says:
Your idols will fall on you and crush you.
You believe your idols will save you because you have stamped MY NAME on them.
The first problem is ‘staying’ IN the christian church. Christianity is a ‘religion’ and religion is NOT of the Lord, it is of Satan. In saying that, it did have a role to play as the glue between to two Empires of Rome, but as we see with the Church of Philadelphia, the Church of the Bride, it is the only one in which the Lord finds no fault in it.
This church still isn’t ‘christian’ by any stretch of the imagination, but more along the lines of the ‘revived Apostolic Church’ from which the Bride will emerge.
@Wayne- you still keep talking about ‘rapture’. I hope you still don’t hold onto a pre-trib escape route? As a ‘christian’ I once believed in it too, but as a ‘True Jew’, a Spiritual new creation in the Lord, I see in His word that it isn’t feasible.
Lets say that I’m correct and there is no pre-trib rapture. When will ‘christian’s who still hold on to religion, know when the point they thought was going to happen, has occurred? The 7 yr peace treaty? The One World Gov’t?
@Charles- reading thru your post I found a lot of truth in what you’re saying, but was absolutely fighting thru the post with all the hebrew references such as Yeshua and what have you. I’m just askin, because I hear a lot of christians using the terminilogy, is this the latest fad in christianity to pretend to be hebrew by using those terms or is there solid biblical direction to ‘looking backwards’ and not forward?
I certainly don’t mean this as a slight to you, please don’t take it that way. I’m not ‘christian’ nor do I play church on Sunday’s or Saturdays, or Wednesday evenings and so on, so I’m curious because it seems to be running rampant in the christian church. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated to help me better understand those people.
The Rapture is an event in the futurist interpretation of Christian eschatology, in which it is posited that Christians will be gathered together in the air to meet Christ at his return.
The primary passage used to support this idea is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, in which Paul cites “the word of the Lord” about the return of Jesus to gather his saints.
…and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.
There are two primary views among Christian denominations regarding the nature of Christ’s return:
Dispensationalist Premillennialists (such as many Evangelicals) hold the return of Christ to be in two stages.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is seen to be a preliminary event to the return described in Matthew 24:29-31.
Although both describe a return of Jesus in the clouds with angelic activity, trumpets, heavenly signs, and a gathering of the saints, these are seen to be two separate events. The first event is to be unseen, the rapture proper, when the saved are prophesied to be ‘caught up,’ from whence the term rapture is taken. The ‘second coming’ is the public event when Christ’s presence is prophesied to be clearly seen as he returns to end Armageddon. The majority of dispensationalists hold that the first event immediately precedes the period of Tribulation.
Amillennialists (such as most Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians (PCUSA), and others),
Postmillennialists (such as some Presbyterians, and others), and Historic Premillennialists (such as Calvinistic Baptists, and others) hold that the return of Christ will be a single, public event.
All passages regarding the return of Christ, such as Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, Revelation 1:7, etc., describe the return of Jesus in the clouds amidst trumpets, angelic activity, heavenly signs, a resurrection, and a gathering of saints.
Although some (such as some Amillennialists) take this event to be figurative, rather than literal, these three groups maintain that passages regarding the return of Christ describe a single event, and that the “word of the Lord” cited by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is the Olivet Discourse which Matthew separately describes in Matthew 24:29-31.
Although the doctrinal relationship of the rapture and the Second Coming are the same in these three groups, Historic Premillennialists are more likely to use the term “rapture” to clarify their position in distinction from Dispensationalists.
Scriptural basis
In addition to the relevant source text of ‘rapture’:
1 Thessalonians 4:15–17
“[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord”,
a potpourri of the scripture texts from the New Testament, which are not related to the theme of rapture itself at all, are quoted in attempt to give some substance to the teaching about rapture, such as:
Matthew 24:36-41
“[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[37] But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
John 14:2–3
“[2] In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
Philippians 3:20-21
“[20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”
1 Corinthians 15:49–55
“[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”
2 Thessalonians 2:1-7
“[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.”
In the amillennial and postmillennial views, as well as in the post-tribulation premillennial position, there are no distinctions in the timing of the rapture.
These views regard the rapture as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 as either identical to the second coming of Jesus as described in Matthew 24:29-31, or as a meeting in the air with Jesus that immediately precedes his second coming to the earth. Within premillennialism, the pre-tribulation position is the predominant view that distinguishes between the rapture and second coming as two events. There are also two minor positions within premillennialism that differ with regard to the timing of the rapture, the mid-tribulation view and the partial rapture view.[32]
Pretribulation
The pretribulation position advocates that the rapture will occur before the beginning of the seven-year Tribulation period, while the second coming will occur at the end of the seven-year Tribulation period. Pre-tribulationists often describe the rapture as Jesus coming for the church and the second coming as Jesus coming with the church. Pre-tribulation teachers and preachers include J. Dwight Pentecost, Tim LaHaye, J. Vernon McGee, Perry Stone, Chuck Smith, Chuck Missler, Jack Van Impe, Grant Jeffrey, and David Jeremiah [33]. While many pre-tribulationists are also dispensationalists, not all pre-tribulationists are dispensationalists.[34]
Midtribulation
The midtribulation position espouses that the rapture will occur at some point in the middle of the Tribulation period. The Tribulation is typically divided into two periods of 3.5 years each. Mid-tribulationists hold that the saints will go through the first period but will be raptured into heaven before the severe outpouring of God’s wrath in the second half of the Tribulation. Mid-tribulationists appeal to Daniel 7:25 which says the saints will be given over to tribulation for “time, times, and half a time,” – interpreted to mean 3.5 years. At the halfway point of the Tribulation, the Antichrist will commit the “abomination of desolation” by desecrating the Jerusalem temple (to be built on what is now called the Temple Mount). Mid-tribulationist teachers include Harold Ockenga, James Buswell and Norman Harrison.[35] This position is a minority view among premillennialists[36].
Prewrath
The prewrath rapture view also places the rapture at some point during the Tribulation period before the second coming. This view holds that the tribulation of the church begins toward the latter part of the seven-year period, being Daniel’s 70th week, when the Antichrist is revealed in the temple. This latter half of the seven-year period is defined as the great Tribulation, although the exact duration is not known. References from Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are used as evidence that this tribulation will be cut short by the coming of Christ to deliver the righteous by means of rapture, which will occur after specific events in Revelation, in particular after the sixth seal is opened and the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood.[37] However, by this point many Christians will have been slaughtered as martyrs by the Antichrist. After the rapture comes God’s seventh-seal wrath of trumpets and bowls (a.k.a. “the Day of the Lord”). The Day of the Lord’s wrath against the ungodly will follow for the remainder of the seven years.[38] Marvin Rosenthal who wrote the book, “The Prewrath Rapture of the Church” is a primary proponent for the prewrath rapture view.[citation needed] His belief is founded on the work of Robert D. Van Kampen (1938–1999); his books “The Sign”, “The Rapture Question Answered” and “The Fourth Reich” detail his pre-wrath rapture doctrine.
Partial
The partial rapture view holds to multiple raptures of believers at the beginning and during the seven year Tribulation period.[39] The term “partial” refers to the idea that only some Christians will be raptured at a time. This is in contrast to other rapture views which hold all Christians would be raptured in a single event. The criteria for who would be raptured are those who will be faithful and watchful. In this view, the rapture is in essence a reward to the faithful.[40] The writers for this view interpret certain eschatology parables as revealing the partial rapture, such as the parable of the ten virgins. All ten virgins are seen as genuine believers, in which the five who were prepared are taken while the others are left. Advocates for this view include Robert Govett (1813–1901) and George Lang.[41]
Posttribulation
Main article: Post Tribulation Rapture
The posttribulation position places the rapture at the end of a tribulation period. Post-tribulation writers define the tribulation period in a generic sense as the entire present age, or in a specific sense of a period of time preceding the second coming of Christ.[42] The emphasis in this view is that the church will undergo the Tribulation – even though the church will be spared the wrath of God.[43] Matthew 24:29–31; “Immediately after the tribulation of those days…they shall gather together his elect…”, is cited as a foundational scripture for this view. Post-tribulationists perceive the rapture as occurring simultaneously with the second coming of Christ. Upon Jesus’ return, believers will meet him in the air and will then accompany him in his return to the earth. Authors and teachers who support the post-tribulational view include Pat Robertson, Walter R. Martin, John Piper, George E. Ladd[44], Robert H. Gundry[45], and Douglas Moo.
Over the last few centuries, believers in the rapture of the church have made predictions regarding the date of the event. The primary scripture reference cited for this position is Matthew 24:36, where Jesus is quoted saying; “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only” (RSV).
Any individual or religious group that has dogmatically predicted the day of the rapture, referred to as “date setting”, has been thoroughly embarrassed and discredited, as the predicted date of fulfillment came and went without event.[46][47] Some of these individuals and groups have offered excuses and “corrected” target dates, while others have simply released a reinterpretation of the meaning of the scripture to fit their current predicament, and then explained that although the prediction appeared to have not come true, in reality it had been completely accurate and fulfilled, albeit in a different way than many had expected. Conversely, many of those who believe that the precise date of the rapture cannot be known, do affirm that the specific time frame that immediately precedes the rapture event can be known. This time frame is often referred to as “the season”. The primary section of scripture cited for this position is Matthew 24:32-35; where Jesus is quoted teaching the parable of the fig tree, which is proposed as the key that unlocks the understanding of the general timing of the rapture, as well as the surrounding prophecies listed in the sections of scripture that precede and follow this parable.
Some notable rapture predictions include the following:
1844 – William Miller predicted Christ would return between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844, then revised his prediction, claiming to have miscalculated Scripture, to October 22, 1844. The realization that the predictions were incorrect resulted in a Great Disappointment. Miller’s theology gave rise to the Advent movement. The Baha’is believe that Christ did return as Miller predicted in 1844, with the advent of The Báb, and numerous Miller-like prophetic predictions from many religions are given in William Sears book, Thief in The Night.[48]
1981 – Chuck Smith predicted that Jesus would probably return by 1981.[49]
1988 – Publication of 88 Reasons why the Rapture is in 1988, by Edgar C. Whisenant.
1989 – Publication of The final shout: Rapture report 1989, by Edgar Whisenant. More predictions by this author appeared for 1992, 1995, and other years.
1992 – Korean group “Mission for the Coming Days” predicted October 28, 1992 as the date for the rapture.[50]
1993 – Seven years before the year 2000. The rapture would have to start to allow for seven years of the Tribulation before the Return in 2000. Multiple predictions.
1994 – Pastor John Hinkle of Christ Church in Los Angeles predicted June 9, 1994. Radio evangelist Harold Camping predicted September 27, 1994.[51]
2011 – Harold Camping’s revised prediction has May 21, 2011 as the date of the rapture.[52]
2060 – Sir Isaac Newton proposed, based upon his calculations using figures from the book of Daniel, that the Apocalypse could happen no earlier than 2060.[53][54]
Wayne – I’m not sure that Believer asked for the Wikipedia definition..?
My understanding, from his previous comments, is that he was asking you whether you believed in the rapture as a pretrib escape route..?
I’m not sure how, in words in this comment box, I can best express my growing concern – in the love of Jesus – that I have for you…
Are you OK…?
Roger
I do not hold to the words of this vision, nor so many of the things said here. I am not latter-rain, nor Judaistic [or Hebraic if you wish to hide behind this term].
What I am is extremely disappointed because this discussion shows the body of Christ doing exactly the opposite of what he wants it to do. We are not reaching maturity or the unity of the faith but fragmenting further and further till there is nothing left. Read through these posts and see how divided we are.
When I use the word “Church” I mean the ecclesia – the gathering of God’s people, so its no good telling me it doesn’t mean that.
When I use the term “Christendom” I am referring to those who belong to Jesus Christ – so when you say people are leaving christendom – to me they are leaving Christ.
The use of the term “religion” here is rather loose. If I disagree with you then I am not a true disciple but religious.
I find the whole thing ignorant and annoying. Each one demands of the other that they be open to their interpretations while outrightly refusing the others. It is little wonder that this fantasy appears to becoming true in your own eyes.
Now I have hated writing these things because I don’t think it will do anything to alleviate what I see here but I would like to remind you of the only command Jesus gave to his disciples.
He said, “This is my commandment that you love one another.”
I’m afraid I find the love expressed here so pretentious I won’t even allude to having any. You’ll just have to decide if I do for yourselves.
May the God of grace hold you close – each one of you.
We do NOT have latitude to invent or to accept whatever religion or religious teaching takes our fancy.
We are NOT permitted to chase after teachers whose teaching tickles our ears and appeals to our carnal need for religious activity.
God is our creator. We MUST follow HIS Word
We have NOT created GOD so HE is NOT obliged in any way to honour our religious aberrations and carnal religious fancies.
FAITHFULNESS to the clear teaching of the Word of God as found in the BIBLE is what GOD requires.
Satan tempted Eve with the idea that God did not really mean what HE said and succeeded in getting mankind exiled from the garden.
Cain decided that he knew better than God and offered a fruit platter when God required animal sacrifice.
The Bible is full of many such examples of the foolishness of man thinking that he knows better than God Himself or that he is at liberty to reinterpret the clear teaching of God in some way.
In HIS Word God has instructed us not to deviate from HIS Word:
FOR EXAMPLE:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
1 Corinthians 11:2
I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.
1 Corinthians 16:13
Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong.
2 Thessalonians 2:2
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.
Titus 1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
The vain imaginations of the human mind leading to the doctrines of demons which are being openly promulgated in what is so flippantly masquerading as the christian church today however is deceiving believers into believing that God is doing something new and that biblical discernment is NOT required.
FALSE RELIGION IS ALWAYS FALSE RELIGION
FALSE TEACHING IS ALWAYS FALSE TEACHING
This is what the apostate latter rain churches are imposing on previously bible based churches to ensnare them into the end time ecumenical harlot church which has usurped the role of the genuine christian church in these last days.
BIBLE TEACHING WILL ALWAYS BE THE WORD OF GOD
FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD IS ALWAYS WHAT GOD IS LOOKING FOR.
As in the days of Noah ignorance of HIS Word and a refusal to submit to HIS Will is taking most people to hell.
The message for the faithful and those who, by the grace of God, intend to remain faithful to HIS Word until the very end is clearly
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
2 Corinthians 6
1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
3Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
6By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
8By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
10As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
11O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
12Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
13Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.
14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
UNBELIEVERS ARE THE SAME AS FALSE BELIEVERS
HOWEVER THEY ARE PROBABLY LESS DANGEROUS TO PEOPLE OPEN TO THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.
Those who have turned away from the Word of God (THE BIBLE) to man made or demonic religion such as the doctrines of demons referred to as latter rain heresies are FALSE BELIEVERS in this context.
They must NOT be allowed to influence the spiritual walk of those of us who have committed to remain faithful if we are to remain faithful to the very end and thereby escape the coming judgement of God.
The WRATH of OUR JUST GOD is a fearful thing and to be AVOIDED at ALL COST
This and the mercy of God in helping HIS FAITHFUL REMNANT to avoid succumbing to the great delusion which has over run true christianity is why the biblical reference to the rapture supports the notion of a pre or mid tribulation rapture of the faithful believers who have overcome the persecutions of the world and the harlot church.
Should GOD NOT intervene in this way even the very elect will be deceived and NOBODY will be saved.
Roger
Whatever difficulty you are having in accepting the TRUTH of the Word of God the message for you is that:
IT IS NOT TOO LATE FOR YOU
Turn to the one TRUE GOD before it is too late.
He is waiting to receive you if you will but repent of your disbelief and false religion and commit yourself to live in accordance with HIS WORD ONLY.
FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD ALONE IS WHAT HE IS TESTING IN THESE LAST DAYS.
YOU MUST FORGET ABOUT BEING POPULAR IN THIS WORLD
THE WORLD HATES THOSE WHO TRULY BELONG TO AND LIVE FOR THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
HE WILL ACCEPT IF IF YOU TURN TO HIM.
I assure you that the reward greatly exceeds the brief inconvenience and lack of worldly popularity that faithfulness to HIM and HIS WORD costs.
1 Cor. 15:51-54
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
I pray that God will speed that day and that you will UNDERSTAND. God has such a magnificent future for us if we will keep … “THE FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS!”
Mat. 7:22-23 “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness).”
To put on the “full armor”–and enjoy a daily and eternal love-relationship with Jesus Christ, thank Him for what He has shown you in His Word. Know the Scriptures behind your prayer so that your words and faith are grounded in the authority of the Bible. (Some of those verses are listed in the chart above.) Then pray through each piece. You can use the following prayer as an outline:
The belt of truth: Thank you, my Lord, for showing me the TRUTH about Yourself, Your plans and Your ways. Thank You for reminding me that You are the only God, the Creator of heaven and earth, the King of the universe, my Father who loves me, and my Shepherd who leads me. You are my wisdom, my counselor, my hope, and my strength. You are everything I need each day!
The breastplate of righteousness: Thank You for showing me the truth about myself — that on my own I could never be good enough to live in your presence. Thank you for taking my sins to the cross and offering me your perfect, RIGHTEOUS life. Lord, show me any sin that I need to confess right now, so that nothing will hinder me from being filled to overflowing with your Spirit. [Take time for confession] Thank you for forgiving me and for filling me with your RIGHTEOUS life.
The sandals of peace: Thank you for the peace you give me when I trust and follow you. Show me how to help others find that PEACE.
The shield of faith: Thank you for helping me have FAITH in you. I choose to count on everything you have shown me about yourself — and everything you have promised me in your Word.
The helmet of salvation: Thank you for promising me SALVATION both for today’s battles and for all eternity.
The sword of the spirit, the Word of God: Thank you for the scriptures you have given me to memorize. Please show me which you want me to use to cut through deceptions and gain your victory in any battle I may face today.
Wayne look at what you said above. Really look at it.
“The sword of the spirit, the Word of God: ”
Do you see what it REALLY says?
It is THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT WIELDS THE WORD OF GOD, NOT US.
When mankind wields the word, IT SLICES, DICES, WOUNDS, DECEIVES, LIES, AND HEADS ROLL.
Nothing good and holy comes of it and God is not glorified when His word is used to batter people with.
Wayne, let the Holy Spirit have control over you. Let Him have His authority over ALL of you…..
LET HIM DO THE TALKING, THE TEACHING, AND THE LOVING.
Wayne,
My own understanding of the Ephesian 6 scripture that you refer to is that some have taken this ‘prayer’ as a daily ritual, which makes it of ‘self’, and I do not read in context that this is what Paul was saying.
Putting on the ‘Lord Jesus’ is a once only event – and we need to be strong in the Lord not ‘self’.
There are other scriptures relating to the ‘armour of God’, which is Jesus Christ Himself – put Him on once, and then stand in the Victory which He won on the cross, and which is Jesus Christ.
I cannot add further to the counsel that HappyTrials has given my friend..
In Him, Roger
Rom. 8 – walk by the Spirit not by the flesh – or gal – Yahushua told us in John that the Holy Spirit would teach us – no need for another – it has taken a long time to have enough of our flesh stripped from us that we understand what the Spirit is directing us to be doing – some days, it is nothing –
i was thinking about yesterday – what service could i possibly have done for Elohim? walking by the Spirit is freedom – sometimes, He asks us to give money – sometimes, it is smiles or hugs or healing – nothing comes back to me – it is ALL his doing – He must increase and we must decrease – when we are filled up with ourselves, we cannot be trusted – think of the military – the basic training is meant to train the recruits to follow the leader – we go through hard trials so we will learn to HEAR what the Spirit is saying and follow only HIM. for some, it may be to go to “church” for others, it may be to be out on the streets where the “hurtings” are. we are unique in Yahweh’s eyes – example: HE has definitely led me to use HIS hebrew names – not always easy as the KJV is so popular and people know about JESUS – but Yahushua? my obedience in what HE is asking me to do is far better then any sacrifice that i could give HIM.
Is. 30: in quietness and confidence is our strength – strength to believe HIS word no matter what circumstances we are facing – confidence to walk in faith – the world has seen the “church” and its pits of vipers that has driven the sheep from the fold and muddy the waters that other sheep has to drink – now it is time to decrease and allow HIM to increase in us so the World will see HIM – not religion – Ez. 34 –
there is no pride allowed in this separated walk – we had no control over it and we cannot change it without HIM doing the changing – we are in HIS fold and HE makes the decisions and speaks out and HIS sheep know HIS voice (if we have left religion behind and our own imaginations) blessings – fw
Seventeen….
You and Doorkeeper from the other article about the sheep are IN UNITY WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.
The Holy Spirit is PURSUING people with HIS TRUTH, but when HIS TRUTH doesn’t agree with what they have learned from books, blogs, church, etc etc THEY REJECT IT.
We are to get alone with God and ask HIM to teach and remove all fake, false, and counterfeit.
HappyTrails: you are right – WE HAVE TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND ASK THE HOLY SPIRIT TO BE OUR GUIDE – IT IS NOT UP TO “US” TO LEAD US IN PATHS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS – IT COMES WHEN WE GIVE HIM PERMISSION – WE LOOSE BEST FRIENDS WHO HAVE INFLUENCED US IN WHAT THEY BELIEVE – WE LOOSE THE SECURITY OF THE CHURCH AND THE PLACE WE BELONGED – YAHUSHUA SAID TO HIS DISCIPLINES “FOLLOW ME” – THEY LEFT EVERYTHING AND FOLLOWED HIM. – THE GATE TO LIFE IS NARROW AND THERE ARE FEW WHO FIND IT – BROAD IS THE WAY THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION – THE ONE WORLD CHURCH Has its doors wide open – THERE ARE TIMES THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO STICK WITH THE CROWD – THAT IS NOT THE NARROW GATE. WE WILL TAKE ABUSE FROM THOSE THAT WE ONCE HONORED AND SERVED – THE SERVANT IS NOT ABOVE THE MASTER – HE SUFFERED AND HE TOLD US THAT WE WOULD BE PERSECUTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS SAKE.
IT IS NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART BUT THE NARROW GATE IS WORTH THE SURRENDER BECAUSE OUR GOOD SHEPHERD IS RIGHT THERE WITH US EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. WE CANNOT DO IT ON OUR OWN, BUT HE HEALS EVERY WOUND AND PROVIDES WHATEVER IS NEEDED ALONG THE WAY. HE PROVIDES FOR ALL OUR NEEDS, PHYSICALLY, EMOTIONALLY AND SPIRITUALLY – HE KEEPS HIS Promises.
very well put seventeen. We praise HIS HOLY NAME for such great insight and we honor the love He has so freely given us.
A HEARTY AMEN Seventeen
Glorify Yourself Oh Holy YEHOVAH ADONAI.
A great big Amen from me too :-)
For His Glory and His Kingdom.
My beloved brothers & sisters, I greet you all in the precious name of Jesus!
I got to this website through another brother who told me about the vision that came out of New Zealand. I’m not going to comment on the vision at this time, but on all the responses and conversations I read.
In Proverbs 10:19 it is written, “In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.” Also, Ecl 5:2 says “Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
I was thrown out of a large Charismatic church all the way back in 1980. I have been a Pastor of a home fellowship in our basement since the early 90′s. But, one precious song I learned from a large organized church was this, “Be Careful Little Mouth What You Speak”. Remember, the Lord is taking account of every word we speak.
You are welcome to visit our website and download free messages from our meetings and also free songs I wrote and recorded for the edification of the church.
May the Lord establish and keep you until His soon appearing.
Yours Servant in Christ,
Pastor Bob
P.S. the site is bbcfellowship.org
Bob, Hi , I am Nicole. I am reposting this because it is in line w/ the other but it also has merit w/ what you posted. I will love to search out your website. Be blessed and loved.
112.
Heidi, it is all in the Lord’s hands as I think we have been conveying. On other topics I have stressed that we talk too much and we are way to opinionated. I stressed that we need to love and respect one another and understand where they are coming from. Oh don’t get me wrong, there are spirits and big time. Many need , w/in the church, deliverance. But sometimes we use demonology 101 and forget that there is a true person in all that entwinment of bone and joints and marrow and blood. I think God is teaching many that we need to start seeing FROM HIS EYES and not ours. There is a time for HIS STEARNESS and a time FOR pulling away and being quiet and sitting by HIS SIDE and a time to speak and a time help (which it doesn’t have to be in church, It can be on a blog, or in a grocery store. I saw a pregnant young lady weeks ago. All she needed was a hug and thank you. As I listened to her, she told me of the harsh man that was in line hours before and just was condensing to her. I left there praying for her and she left me, w/ a smile on her face. Many of us have been wounded in churches. Many of us are scared and fearful to go back to the churches. Those are wounds that ,in time, HIS TIME, we will once again join in and be a unity in love – BUT HIS LOVE not a false love.
I do believe w/ all my heart and HIS SPIRIT that the youth (my grown adult children too) will see the truth of the Love of the Lord . My prayer is always, Father, show them you love, so many have hurts and wounds that they have tar on them and they lost out on something in their life , or childhood , and they have taken it out on you and don’t know you and some don’t believe that you are a loving God. Show them Lord and open their hearts” and if it is someone I know , help me to know when to say something and when to keep my mouth shut and if they slap me w/ harmful words, allow me to be able to stand before them w/ your eyes and then when I am alone help me to unwind in your arms and feel the Love again pour upon me, because it is YOU they are wounding not me. Forgive them Lord, for many don’t know what they are saying or doing”
Yes, Heidi, I believe that many will be warriors in God’s sense of the Word. We have to be some kind of stable person in HIM to be able to take the combat that is so prevalent in this world of church and outside the walls.
Right now, He is giving me a heart of HIM . I am an encourager. I always have been and always will be and HE is teaching me much more and those are just tools so I can understand better when it is my time to really be out there. And that is something I wonder about every day. I don’t want to be in “hiding” but I also don’t want to be afraid to step out . I think most can understand this. It is HIS TIMING but we do have choice and free will. I think He is teaching us much and many things we might not realize it.
For instance. I was saying something on an e-mail to someone a true good friend— and I said something that was judgemental, in other words I shot my mouth off, in the privacy of my own e-mail and home. It was about a ministry and the pastor. I went back to sit down and the Holy Spirit was all over me — and not in a good way. I was so uncomfortable. I said nothing that was so huge but it could have been gossip and I knew I needed to repent . I knew I didn’t know the true heart of this person. I knew I had to remedy my e-mail . I did , and not long after that the pressure lifted and I cried because I realized that those people are just as lost as some of the others – but the Lord loves them just as much.
There is the spirits and those that are learning them, will be able to apply what they learn. We still love the person, just not the sin. We love the person just not the spirit.
David in the bible had a warriors heart. And many will have that too. I believe we are seeing that in many bloggers and heart that is for the Lord. Those sheep that are dirty, — they can be bathed in the Glory of the Lord , their sins can be washed free and they in return will go out and help the others and clean them up and help them . ——-That is what it is all about. HIS LOVE< HIS SERVICE: HIS WORDS. HIS CARE and CONCERN. it is along process of loosing self, but those that are trying HE IS EVER so greatful to respond and work w/ you at a caring soft way that isn't going to harm you but to help you.
Much love to all. HIS LOVE , and mine.
The Bride leaves Christendom or Christianity and all that goes with it because it is not supported by the word of God.
Jesus said to live by EVERY word out of the mouth of God. (Matt. 4:4)
He said we cannot get to the kingdom of God unless we follow the Father’s commandments. He commanded certain feast and days of no work in Leviticus 23 and in Deuteronomy 4:2 God commanded not to add to or diminish from His word.
Christianity does not follow the commanded 7th day Sabbath of no work for any. (Exodus 20)
It has added Christmas and Easter and ignored Passover and Feast of Tabernacles and Day of Atonement.
Christianity seeks the riches and honors of the world like the rest.
They use debt, interest, insurance (surety) and covetousness, all things God forbids or warns against.
Jesus said, “If they believe not Moses and the Prophets, neither will they believe though one rise from the dead.” Luke 16:19-31
The kingdom of God is where the people of an area live by God’s word, the same yesterday, today and forever. Without following God’s word or wanting it for our government, we block the kingdom from coming.
mariedevine: in 89′ i learned about the second covenant – the teaching was through a tv personality – after I submitted and yielded, for 3 weeks i was constantly aware of the change that had taken place inside of me. i was never the same again. this teaching taught me to TRUST.
Elohim used this man’s teaching to change me. i ordered the tapes and showed them in my home with the thought that others could pick up the same thing that had happened to me but it didn’t work. Yahusha had USED that man’s teaching to be there when i needed it most.. by showing the tapes, it became religious – what He used for me, is not right for another. we are unique in Elohim’s eyes. He fulfills the purpose HE HAS FOR US. and HE who began a good work in us will complete it to the very end.
the second covenant is talked about in Jer. 31
But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
i know HE is talking about the Jews but it also applied to the drafted on jews. Hebrews mentions the second covenant again in chapter 8
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hbr 8:7 ¶ For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
you can go ahead and read the chapter for yourselves. i literally took HIS word for what it says. if we didn’t have the second covenant, Yahushua would have suffered in vain. Paul would have spent all that time in prison and in chains for naught.
i agree with some of what, you said, mariedevine, – constantine decreed “christianity” to be the religion of the time and man made rules were put into place and doctrine became established. the history of the scriptures is out there for all to read.
however, Elohim has used it for us as it was what we had and He continues to use some of it. but, in this last hour, Yahushua is revealing the TRUTH – we need to pray and asked not to be deceived and for HIS Truth, not man made teaching.
Yahushua said that it was better for Him to go away as He would send the Holy Spiriit to guide, teach, conusel, comfort etc. i would not want to live without His presence in my life. i don’t think it is even possible to follow the law without His support in my life. the israelites couldn’t.
i believe the israelites set an example for believers today –
Elohim met all their needs while they were in the wilderness – they had to keep going around the mountain and most of them did not get to go into the promised land because of their unbelief. even moses didn’t -
when we enter into the second covenant with Yahushua as our leader, and follow His word, (not man’s) He will get us into the Kingdom of God – the Kingdom of God is trusting Elohim to meet ALL our needs.
The world has trained us to depend on money, power, education, etc. etc. the end days will show us that only Elohim can meet our needs.
okay, how does what i just wrote line up with the vision that wayne presented? man has to leave religion and what it teaches behind and follow Yahushua – the bride will leave christiandom. we have to TRUST Him – He will take us into the Kingdom of God.
i don’t believe all will come into the kingdom – Yahushua talks about leaving the ones behind and He mentions it tearfully –
my job as HIS servant, now, is to follow wherever HE leads me to go. i don’t have to have a ministry or title or any man made structure. i realize that andrew has built this website and we could not be writing out thoughts without it and i would not have received the teaching of the second covenant if i had not gotten it on tv; well, maybe, Elohim is so resourceful that He would have found another way.
none of prove anything by disagreeing or calling another to task – i ask you to pray over what i have written – a price was paid to have received it. under HIS care, fw