“WE NEED SIGNS & WONDERS!” -David Wilkerson
THE “FULLY PREACHED” GOSPEL
-extract by David Wilkerson.
The apostle Paul said to his generation: “I have fully preached the gospel of Christ” (Romans 15:19). And he described the “fully preached” gospel as one that is much more than words. It is a gospel of words and deeds! “For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed” (v. 18).
Paul was saying, “The Gentiles turned to Christ not because of my preaching alone, but because my words were accompanied by miraculous deeds!”
“In mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so
that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully
preached the gospel” (v. 19).
If Paul had preached and taught without signs and wonders
following, his message would not have had its full impact. It would
not have been the gospel fully preached! He said to the Corinthians,
“Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with
all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds”
(2 Corinthians 12:12)
READ THE REST OF BOTH ARTICLES-
http://www.worldchallenge.org/en/node/15633
http://www.worldchallenge.org/en/node/15679
© 2011 World Challenge – a registered trademark of David Wilkerson
I recommend that everyone read the whole article. As he notes many modern self seeking preachers seek signs to further their ministry, not to glorify God and bare witness to His power and authority. Because of this wrong emphasis many try to discredit the validity of these demonstrations.
I do think of the likes of Wesley and Moody… as far as I am aware not known for signs and wonders, but definitely mighty deeds, fruitfulness and ability to powerfully communicate the gospel.
We need an apostle chosen by God to see the signs of an apostle. Someone that has found favour with God. With the churches so full of people using magic you could call them christian covens you are probably not going to get an apostle to go to your churches anyway.
We need the ministry of an apostle. The signs and wonders that accompany his ministry are a testemony of God’s favour and love.
Actually Gary – some pretty powerful “signs” were found in Wesley’s ministry also, my friend.
Everything Wilkerson says here is vitally important. The “full” gospel must have “signs following”.
Totally Scriptural.
Bless you!
Andrew Strom.
Thanks for posting this Brother. In every meeting of pastors and preachers that I’ve been in there has been one Big Question so often asked by Christians here in America… “Why are there no miracles as it was when Christ walked here on Earth?” This is always done in confidence as if they did not want the lay person or the congregation to know that they were admitting that they did not have this ability. This past weekend the Lord has been teaching me to share with preachers and all Believers the fact that there are No Miracles, because the enemy has caused the Church as a whole to fall into a spirit of disbelief. Teaching That Miracles Aren’t For Today! That miracles were used by the apostles to help start the early church, that all things are now complete and the Bible has been fully given to men…and many other lies from Hell are keeping the Gospel from being “Fully Given” as Paul said. And the Power of God is being Hidden!!! And the world laughs at our foolish attempts to call out demons…
It pains me to see gracious loving Believers look at me as if I am crazy when I tell them to lets pray for healing…or lets pray for a miracle or there is a demon spirit that needs to be cast out. (Remember the look on some of the pastors faces in New Jersey when I said in front of the assembly that the Lord had shone me that our dear sister was being oppressed by a demon? I thought half of them were gonna run outta the building! Well she was delivered and I got off the phone with her yesterday in amazement at what God is doing in her ministry!) I want to scream out in every sacrimonious assembly, “AND THESE SIGNS WILL FOLLOW THOSE WHO BELIEVE!!!!!” IN MY NAME THEY WILL CAST OUT DEVILS, IN MY NAME THEY WILL HEAL THE SICK, IN MY NAME THEY WILL RAISE THE DEAD!!!” Folks if that isn’t true today then none of the Word is true today. We have allowed ourselves to believe a Lie from Hell, that signs and wonders are not for today. They are for all Eternity, as a Sign of the Mighty Resurrection Power of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. We don’t see them because we refuse to acknowledge that our unbelief and our sin is keeping us from seeing them. Our failure to acknowledge that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a common requirement along with Salvation to provide the full Power of the Revelation of Christ; we with Elymas the Sorcer want to withstand them… and then with Simon the other Sorcer, offer money to be able to do these Signs. But we NEVER will admit that Sin is keeping us from being fully filled with the Power to Use the signs for demonstration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Where are the Signs that used to be seen in the Church?… They are Still Here!!! Waiting to be used by one who is willing to lay at the Feet of Jesus, to Suffer with Him, to be Crucified with Him, to Die with Him, and to Live for Him. My God heals every time I preach… Every time I tell someone about Christ, they want me to pray for their disease, or their sick child, and I am just stupid enough to believe that in spite of my sinful flesh, the Holy Spirit will arise in me, giving victory over satan, and that it will be done, just as Christ would have done it. Because He Himself said, “Even Greater Things will you do…”
Thank you Brother Andrew for posting this, Thank our God for Showing Us that He is Alive and Well on Planet Earth, waiting for us to stand in the Gospel of Christ, and Walk in its Power.
Andrew for anybody to say we need signs and wonders it should always be as a back up to the preaching or teaching of the word first as Paul did, but not as i encounted at the church i attend when a visiting minister tried to conjour up some signs and wonders then fit scripture in to suit.
Amen Brother Phil, that may be why we see two types of Sorcerers in Acts; one for each extreme! One wants to withstand them, the other wanted to capitalize on the signs, making money from them. We definitely see that today. But we must realize the Word said, these signs will “Follow”…NOT come first.
God bless.
Wikerson said it himself: “Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds”
(2 Corinthians 12:12)
The signs and wonders were apostolic. They were part and parcel of the apostolic age. That was it. Confirmation of the gospel in the apostolic age is all the confirmation we need. Real confirmation.
Those signs were written that we might believe. John 20:30-31. We don’t need any more.
Always, seek Jesus’s opinion first. HE said we would do more signs and wonders, but that is when we preach to those who never heard the gospel. It is much different when preaching to the church, as some have observed above. Read what i am writing – once again the truth will not be bearable to some. I don’t mean to be rude but, at the same time, some seem never to get to see the light, not even after 2,000 years. how much more grace period do we still need?
signs and wonders are for the **unbelievers**, as Jesus had taught. he told His people that the sign of Jonah (Himself) would suffice. we are so signs-driven that we never see Jesus hitch hiking on the pavement, hoping to share time with you along your frenzied way.
Signs and wonders we have no need of but repentant hearts and reaching out in love to those around us who are hurting.
I have been saying this for weeks and have been proven right in practice. Signs and wonders were only needed to get the attention of the unbelievers.
No, what we need are people who would take care of those who are hurting and let them no hear about love, but touch, feel and taste it, be warmed by it.
And we need repentance, not yet more teaching. Some are filled to overflowing with teaching but cannot apply a single iota in their own lives. Teaching has to end until such to me the xians get their priorities right. Make a study of true revival within the church and you will see what I am talking about. Do you really understand what revival is?? I am not convinced…………………
To revive something means to bring back its former life – that is different from evangelizing a lost world. Your newsletter is called Revival List which means we are not dealing with evangelising the masses but reviving the church that was dismembered into more than 43,000 fragments and left to fight and oppose itself by shooting arrows from bloated religious ego’s. That simply has to change if we want to see revival.
May someone please board up the church doors and windows, arrest the preachers and intern them until such time there is a hunger and a thirst for the Word of God. May the endless teaching become a snare to those who do not see their hands and feet move according their hearts; and to get there, we need the concept to first give birth to change in the hearts of people. yet it remains in the head. concepts that never get assembled nor roll off a production line. how many cars will toyota sell if all its blueprints remain just fantasy in the design studio?
You call your site john the baptist. that was your own making. I get called john the baptist by non-xian mystics, tradesmen and kings from around the world; also by commoners. I am called prophet, which i am not going to call myself. others do.
does a baby choose its own name, then?
From the moniker they give me, you can see that i am real. Sit up and take notice! it is time to learn, not preach, listen and not teach. we cannot have revival as long as there is so much filth being allowed and given free reign. since when are false teachers allowed to speak in church? i do as paul did and rebuke them!
make a study of judges, prophets, disciples, apostles and even Jesus. see they were not pacifists but rather radical zealots, taking no nonsense from the falseness around them. they dealt with it decisively. xianity fails in this because they never saw the rough edge of God and the sharp edge of His sword. look ate their bibles – the NT section will be worn out and the OT section, where the character of “Father” resides, will be basically virgin territory; untouched. Show me a xian’s bible and I will accurately sum him up at a glance.
it is because i am the real thing and know what it will take to get revival, true revival and not some charismatic frenzy. that is where the problem lies – the charismania has no idea of what revival truly is! True revival has no excitement in it; toby mac errs in his very likable song ‘burn for you.’
See what David had sad above.
David,
You sound like one of the religious folks referred to by Wilkerson. All the people that I have prayed for or cast demons out of that were healed–guess what? They NEEDED “signs and wonders” because they were sick but now are HEALED.
Do you ever go to see a medical doctor? If yes you’d better stop going and sinning as according to your doctrine we don’t need any signs and wonders like healing any more.
If just a few people were healed each year or so in our local churches, the congregations would be ecstatic. Perhaps our unbelief is even worse than that of the first century Nazareth. In most churches none are healed.
Well, the Church could not be any deader than it is today and there are surely not many sings and wonders! Many spend so much energy fighting against the Holy Spirit and all His works and signs and wonders. Many act like He is not the Author of it all but He indeed is!
Souls going to hell by the millions and the earth rotting to hell all around us and we sit and pontificate in our ignorance against the Mighty Holy Spirit and His Works! Don’t worry! Those of you who resist Him can sit in your deadness and dead religious powerLESS form, and the Holy Spirit won’t bother you with none of His power nor signs or wonders! Only those who seek the Holy Spirit and the FIRE will receive it! God won’t force His Holy Spirit prayer language and tongues on any of you! He will just let you sit in your deadness, and powerlessness!
But woe to you when you arrive in His Holy Presence at Judgment and have to give account for what you did with His word, and how you took just what YOU decided you wanted and cast the rest of the Bible out!
My comment on David Wilkerson’s article is….yes.
The Lord has had David’s in caves, and Elijahs being fed by ravens and Josephs in the prison houses of having to spend all of their time in the wilderness with Jesus because the church didn’t care less about how they were suffering…a prayerless, healingless, compassionless church for the most part, with few exceptions, did not care. Jesus has been their good Samaritan…and they will ‘come forth as gold’ and shake the churches…for it will be obvious that…”they have been with Jesus”.
In Church organisations today, there are many conflicting priorities and competing interests. Good preachers, good musicianship, good programs and good coffee. Everybody seems to have a function and a ministry, a Department or portfolio. Leadership became the buzz word around 1998-1999. I was never clear on what shape or form leadership was to take back in those days. It seemed that bigger “Churches” would require a greater level of organisation and administration to accommodate community projects, building programs and pastoral check up care on a much broader scale. This would become a self sustaining business model, generously financed by the people and well oiled by the hierarchy. Essentially, building churches “a mile long but an inch deep.”
The diminishing signs and wonders today may be the result of man serving man, rather than man serving and being anointed by God. Does this mean there are less converts? Or does this mean there are more false conversions?
Before (Charismania?) really took off in my AOG Church, healing was commonplace, preaching was repentance based and faith centred, praise music was full of bright tunes accompanied by thoughtful, intelligent worship (not repetitious, drum beating chants that harness soul power), fellowship groups thrived, families flourished and youth were taught how to fear God. People did actually love and care for their brothers and sisters. And I was blessed to enjoy this (Philadelphia) Church for six whole years.
I could say more about the development and result of this progression as well as the script and main characters. The dreams, the prophetic warnings and the wolves I encountered drew me closer to God. As I contended for the faith, I saw how many could not accept that the blind were leading the blind.
Although there are people who genuinely question signs and wonders following those that believe today, this is proven beyond doubt at the very least by those whose lives are filled with, and who are walking in, the power of the Spirit today. It is no small grievance to see those who have the appearance of godliness but deny the power of God. Even within the so called Church, there are those who withstand the truth and do not call on God to help their unbelief and yet others who are willing to exercise the power of God for their own glory, but not submit to His authority unto obedience of carrying his cross.
When the self-sustaining and self-generating of resources ceases to govern the people of God, they will realise that their real wealth is not through the work of their own hands. We are all poor, blind, pitiable, wretched and naked, but rich in Christ.
Repentance and holiness should produce some genuine signs. Other not so genuine signs will also manifest to undermine the will and purposes of God, but that should not deter us.
Apparently, Wesley wrote in his journal for November 25, 1759:
“The danger was to regard extraordinary circumstances too much, such as outcries, convulsions, visions, trances; as if these were essential to the inward work, so that it could not go on without them. Perhaps the danger is, to regard them too little; to condemn them altogether; to imagine they had nothing of God in them, and were a hindrance to his work. Whereas the truth is 1) God suddenly and strongly convinced many that they were lost sinners; the natural consequence whereof were sudden outcries and strong bodily convulsions; 2) to strengthen and encourage them that believed, and to make His work more apparent, He favoured several of them with divine dreams, others with trances and visions; 3) in some of these instances, after a time, nature mixed with grace; 4) Satan likewise mimicked this work of God in order to discredit the whole work; and yet it is not wise to give up this part any more than to give up the whole. At first, it was, doubtless, wholly from God. It is partly so at this day; and He will enable us to discern how far, in every case, the work is pure and where it mixes or degenerates.”
May we all discern what is of God and what is of Satan. In Wesley’s meetings, many reportedly cried out in pain, anguishing over sin and hell, but were later followed by the freedom and release of joyful praise by that once anguished soul. I like what Derek Prince once wrote: “If it is weird, ugly or strange, then it is not of God.” I think that is a good place to start.
If you are a believer and no signs or wonders have followed you, then at least question why would God not empower you to overcome the world, the flesh and the Devil so that you may bear witness and testimony to Christ. Sure, by faith we believe and are saved. But, “Anything which comes from God is able to overcome the world: and the power by which we have overcome the world is our faith.” (1 John 5:4)
I agree with Thomas2 (above), The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is to walk in the power of God and to have the revelation of Christ. How else do you demonstrate a living faith in God? By saying that 2,000 years ago, people actually walked in the power of God – but now, we have to just accept that and take a lesser status and live our lives without divine enabling to overcome the things of the world. Surely this is not only contrary to the promises of God but also the purposes of God.
All we who are sons and daughters, kings and priests, have been given everything for life and Godliness, every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms – for His glory alone. Why settle for less than God’s provision for you. I pray we may all know the riches of the inheritance of the saints and the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe (Eph 1).
I used to believe in signs,but these days with all the sh** going on, who knows what is real if I still went to a church or talked to other christian I would be embarassed to show them the circus that I have not watched for years called christianity.
I believe in God almighty and Jesus, but as far as signs and wonders there must have been some special men in the past that God could use but not today.
Everyday I see cancer sickness and death winning this war and I got to take my own kids to the Doctor still.
Sigh… is it GOds fault? of course not it is the devils and our fault for sin.
I believe in GOd I ask God for help and I think He helps more than I know so I say thank you to Him in case I missed anything He did.
But it hurts my heart to watch people suffer and die, it used to hurt more when I though hey God wil heal God does miracles still, but I have never seen them(especially when most needed) and anyone who can do real ones are very rare these days, so I think to myself nothing is to hard for God but it must be reslly hard to ask Him right, or a bunch of peopl are supposed to die horrible prematures deaths because we deserve it and God is just,or we as “christians” have and fail so miserabley everyday that it is of course our fault that we are not where God needs us in life, not all us are super aposltes some of us had to be created to just do dishes and take a bullet to the face. I do not know the answer, I DO BELIEVE BUT I DO NOT SEE 1000s heale deveryday but 1000s suffer and die so eathier we have really pissed GOd off we epically suck and fail or mabey there just are not that many people that God can use this way and it is our fault, mabey we do not know how to surrender enought mabey we canot be trusted or mabey it is just me.
I mean think about it almost every sonof*** in a pulpit claims to have supernatural powers, so even if I did say hey God can heal you buddy, they would look at me like I am one of them a shyster in a suit trying to fleece them, don’t believe me? try praying for someone in public I tried a couple times they usally look at you like a leper and slink away? the power of the Lord convicting them? or they just think I am a creep.
And one thing I must say,people say that God does not do it except for His Glory, fine it is His show,buuuuut down here how do we even know if we are asking for the right reasons? hmmmm anyone fully regenerated and uncorupptable now? dint thinks so, so if I aske God to heals someone sans motive and He heals them so we are both now overjoyed and overwhelemd of course we thenk God who eles could it be? but if I ask and they really need the healing and it does not happen does that mean my timing my motive is always wrong? what if I was sure i believed sure I asked right sure sure sure didnt happen now what? well it cannot be Gods fault ever. ever! so the fault lies with us which means what? no one knows either Jesus died for our sins or didnt either we can talk to God or we cannot? I do not make my children learn proper grammar or check their attitude before talking to me, I think God would know that imperfect cannot ask perfectly so where is the problem it still lies somewhere with us or me, why we are not just running around like 800,000 Pauls and Stevens I do not know(how many real christians are there whe believe in miracles and the HOly Ghost?) anyhow should be emptying hospitals and morgues should be all this going on, but all I see is a bunch of people shaking like they got DT’s sayin Im drunk lololo,.lolooll yay
“The miracles of this last-day church will be genuine, indisputable,
undeniable, and yet they will not be well known. Instead, they will
issue forth from the hands of ordinary, holy, separated saints who
know God and are intimate with Jesus.
These believers will emerge from the secret closet of prayer—a
small, prepared army full of faith, with no other desire than to do
the will of God and glorify Him. They will be fearless and powerful
in prayer.”
Our modern day seeking for “power encounters” has jaded those of us who genuinely seek the full expression of the gospel. The end of this article that I have quoted above, basically says it will come out of the place of prayer and intimacy with Jesus along with holiness. I am convinced it will come, if we do things God’s way. There can be a real danger in seeking for signs and we need to continue to seek Him, until *He comes and rains righteousness upon us*
Like many of my brothers and sisters I too wonder as to why miracles seem so scarce today and to offer any answer seems in itself almost an admission of defeat.
I am a nurse and see great pain and misery all the time and those whom I pray for end up dying anyway, usually in great pain. There are those among us who say these signs and wonders have long since ceased, and although I do not hold to that idea, I understand why that thinking exists.
We see in the gospel narrative Jesus talking about the important link between faith and miracles coming to be, then there are incidents where no faith seems to be needed for a miracle to occur – the cripple outside the temple whom Peter and John encountered did not so much as ask to be healed, and yet he was healed.
I think also that the Bible plainly teaches that along with a famine for The Word comes along a famine for miracles; I also see that if we place too much weight on miracles and healings and such that this is also seen as not such a good thing from God’s perspective: Jews seek after a sign, we are told, and Greeks seek after wisdom, and yet there seems to exist a great balance of both in the biblical belief in Jesus as Christ, I think today we are a bit too caught up in signs and wonders gigs and not so much bothered about the accuracy of God’s Word being preached and taught and I think one thing has something to do with the other.
Jesus first had to cleanse the temple of leaven, representing sin and pride before He began to heal, and I think so long as there is leaven in the church, leaven in the teachings, leaven in the form of sin allowed to continue unchallenged in the hope of helping each other to be over-comers and to offer praise and worship to God in a right manner, then there may well continue to be a famine for miraculous healings within the Body of Christ.
If we look at Matthew’s Gospel we find:
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here. (Matthew 12:38-41)
Jesus here seems to be emphasising repentance coming from good, sound, truthful, fire and brimstone preaching, a form of preaching that led to perhaps the greatest revival in the Old Testament period, a type of preaching that today has sadly gone the way of the dodo; then the Lord goes on to tell these people that a greater preacher is standing before them and yet, even thought they refuse to hear His words of truth leading to salvation, these people are still expecting Him to put on a show of signs and wonders.
Like the song says: Everybody wants to get to heaven but nobody wants to die” Or everyone wants to live forever in heaven so long as God is not in charge. Everyone wants the healing, but how many want the pure, unadulterated Gospel with all of the ‘offensive’ absolutes and divine exclusions?
The tragedy that we find in Matthew 12 is they received neither the teaching nor the miraculous sign! Please notice I said they ‘received’ neither, for both were obviously offered as gifts to them as they are offered to us all.
Healings!
Boy, but does this world in which we live need some healings!
And Boy, but does the Body of Christ need some healing!
But what we need most of all is preaching, greater preaching than that of Jonas, from that great preacher who lives inside us all. And perhaps if we do begin to preach as we ought, during these dark and terrible days in which we live were Man’s ego has become so bloated that he can be so easily bruised with the Biblical Gospel, perhaps we will once again see some real healing – the healing of the rift between Man and the God who so loves him that He sent His only begotten Son to die on his behalf so that all would be made right again, so that all brokenness would be healed!
Good questions on this site.
Shalom.
Great article and so timely. Most charismatic “cults” today follow after the signs instead of the God that will anoint a ministry when God alone is glorified. True signs and wonders are coming, along with judgement. But they will follow those who have been specially prepared by God. And those prepared ones will not have to seek after them.
JUST ANOTHER THOUGHT!
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” (Matthew 7:15) “But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.” (John 10:12); A terrifying point to take note of when these two scriptures are coupled together is that sometimes the wolves the hirelings throw the sheep to are actually false prophets pretending to be of the flock they are out to destroy. In all honesty, and with love and meekness, one has to ask why so many ministers today seem reluctant to warn their flocks of such wolves as those found on television come the wee, small hours. You know the ones to which I refer, those who prophesy falsely, claiming things that never ever come to pass whilst they openly make merchandise of the flock, fleecing them for every dollar they can get. Those wolves who need to put on a show, like the followers of the priests of Baal during their confrontation with Elijah, knocking people down to have some ‘carpet time’, blowing people over on the stage like the Big Bad Wolf blowing down the little piggy’s house, waving their jackets and knocking down crowds like pretty maids all in a row, all the while pretending that the sick have been healed when the sick go home just as ailing as when they first rocked up for the circus hitting town. Why are the ministers not removing these charlatan’s publications from their church’s libraries? Why do we not hear the sermons necessary to protect the flock from such obvious wolves? All it takes is for the ministers to do that part of their job where they test all things with the Word of God and then warn and protect the flock from those who preach things not found in the Bible. After all, did David as a boy not go toe to toe with both a lion and a bear, rescuing his father’s sheep, willing to die to save a single lamb from the mouths of these beasts? This was once a responsibility of each and every man ordained of God in the ministry of preaching and teaching, and yet it seems to have died a dodo’s death in recent times.
This is also a problem I think is adding to the lack of miracles today, shepherd not protecting God’s flocks from things that are so obviously Satanic – Perhaps the lack of miracles in the end is a form of judgement from the Lord on the lukewarm church of our age!
Difficult questions!
So little answers from me – Sorry!
Shalom.
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and GREATER works than these HE WILL DO, because I go to My Father.
“And whatever you ask in My name that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
“If you ask ANYTHING in My name, I WILL DO IT.” (John 14:12-14 emphasis added.)
All I can say is AWESOME!…. I think if we can all meditate on Jesus’ promise here, and get it deep into our spirits, and have the FAITH to BELIEVE His promise – His will, then we WILL truly do great and mighty signs and wonders, EXCEEDING those that He Himself did – as He has clearly promised! Hallelujah! Ah, for faith as big as a grain of mustard seed! LORD, forgive us our unbelief, and mightily increase our faith!
Present and accounted for – with signs and wonders. The Kingdom of God will be established on this planet, wether it’s occupants like it or not.. Be prepared or don’t be.
I awaken from deep rest regularly with a song in my heart that cannot be quenched. I have never had so much fun in my entire life. What an extraordinary pleasure it is to walk hand in hand with Our Creator on a daily basis.
Join me in heralding Christ’s impending return , or don’t (and miss out on all the joy and power available to his children in the here and now)
Tic Toc, Tic Toc ,Tic Toc.
I am so excited right now! I can barely sit still!
This is why….I’m wondering if all this fluff and puff and ‘other’ gospels being preached is a huge bluff for the REAL gospel of Jesus Christ that is soon coming!!
I mean…doesn’t the battle start heating up when the end is near?
I think about what Mr Wilkerson said about those in their prayers closets closest to the Lord coming in walking in the Full Gospel of Jesus with signs and wonders following!
I think it’s coming!!!!!
Maybe there will be a huge move of God that those who are following this nonsense will “WAKE UP!”
Maybe there is a HUGE harvest coming!!!
If I remember correctly, many times, perhaps in order to get people’s attention, Jesus healed a few people first and then they would know His authority and then carefully listen to His teaching.
One BIG problem in the modern day Church is that the offices of a pastor, or apostle, etc, have been turned from a calling of God into a career choice.
Go to seminary where they teach you public speaking (remember what Paul said about eloquent speaking) get a degree and then become a pastor.
Simple, un-educated fishermen empowered and with a calling from God would not easily qualify as pastors in today’s highly educated church. I know of one congregation where it was mandatory to have a doctorate in order to become a pastoral staff member.
Most have forgotten the Scripture … “I have chosen you, you did NOT choose me…”, or the fact that Jesus chose and appointed the 12. They were handpicked by Him!
It all boils down to the fact that we have taken things into our own hands! We are really appointing our own leaders based on education, popularity and even looks instead of looking for someone who is truly appointed by God.
And, as I have posted on the other thread, there is really not much apathy in the church today. In fact there is a great deal of busyness with all kinds of programs and meetings. One of the devil’s strategies to keep us ineffective is to keep us busy (preoccupied).
There are two very different types of works as recorded in the Bible. One I’d like to call “Marthaism” and the other Jesus focused surrender. Martha was working hard in the kitchen. Most people would argue that there is certainly nothing wrong with being hospitable and serving a guest. However, it was Mary who chose the right thing by sitting at Jesus’ feet. (Jesus, in His power, could have provided a 5 course meal at the snap of His finger.)
Many Christians are indeed very busy with meetings, seminars reading books and watching video’s or DVD’s on how to prosper while trying to find a formula they can apply to receive material blessings.
The problem is not a lack of works, rather, it is the KIND of work and its roots that we should look at.
“We cannot please God by what we do for Him in our own human effort, we can only please Him by surrendering and letting Him work in and through our lives.”
-John Mulinde-
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Someone wondered why we do not see miracles today……
There really is a high price to pay to see a great move of God. The last thing David Wilkerson said is…….all about the prayer closet. Most do not even pray at all or very little. We all want to live on the mountain top of fun and joy and skipping merrily along our happy way. Well now that was NOT the attitude of Christ nor the Apostles. They poured out their lives unto death in sacrifice to see souls saved. There was much travailing, anguish, risking their lives, and daily suffering and living in much total discomfort. The first words Jesus said to us when we become born again is…..”DENY YOURSELF…..PICK UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW ME. We deny ourselves NOTHING as Christians to see others birthed into the Kingdom, nor for miracles to occur.
Serving Christ comes at a high price. Almost none today are willing to deny themselves to fast, spend hours daily in prayer and then go to the streets to talk to people about the gospel. It is NOT about us being HAPPY, but about us hurting and denying ourselves that others might miss the horrors of hell and make it to Heaven! We have all eternity to be HAPPY and to sit on all our blessings. Jesus never promised us HAPPINESS, but He did promise us Joy…eternal joy. Even when our hearts are breaking and even in great suffering we can have that joy and peace.
When we are willing to deny ourselves and pay the price we shall see the miracles and all the rest begin to occur. When judgment and suffering comes to America, we will see Christians change their selfish way of living and become purified and STOP THINKING ABOUT THEIR BLESSINGS and start being concerned about OTHERS! God help us in our selfishness when souls drop by thousands daily to suffer agony in eternal hell forever….and all the churches teach us about is about “us being HAPPY!? We are products of our sicking teaching in our churches today…all about SELF, SELF, SELF! It is a humanistic gospel and indeed a false gospel!
Amen Joyce! I have a dear sister in Christ who is very gifted in many spiritual gifts. As we have ministered together in past years, she has had many people say, “I wish I had your gift”. She is Very quick to return with “Are you prepared to pay the price for a gift?” She says tongue in cheek… “I don’t even ask for a hot dog in Jesus’ Name anymore, ’cause I know the cost.” In this gimme all quick world we live in, people want to have all the gifts without paying the price. Even Simon said he would buy it…but they come at a cost that has to be payed in soul travail, working, praying, fasting, and denying self…and when its all over, then as we stand before Christ, we can cry, “It was Worth It!”. Glory to His Name.
God’s last-day church will go “out and [preach] everywhere, the
Lord working with them and confirming the word through the
accompanying signs” (Mark 16:20). That is what God envisions for us.
Amen Joyce! We are in a time of SELF Esteme; SELF Image, SELF Improvement and yet, as you pointed out, Jesus tells us to die to SELF, to deny SELF, to crucify SELF. In God’s ecomomy, we are to place HIM first, Others second, and self last; we are to esteme others as being higher than ourselves. Now how can that be done without descipleship, I have been a Christian for about 10 or so years and yet I have never been Descipled; it has been a most lonely journey and perhaps this is where the end time church could begin before it is too late, descipleship, brother and sister encouraging brother and sister, carrying each other’s burdens, confessing before one another and praying for each other that we might be healed.
I was blessed enough to have heard Wilkerson preach on the internet a few times and boy, but did the man preach THE GOSPEL; The end of this message we are encouraged to discuss here is so full of the message he was given to give to his brothers and sisters:
“The miracles of this last-day church will be genuine, indisputable,
undeniable, and yet they will not be well known. Instead, they will
issue forth from the hands of ordinary, holy, separated saints who
know God and are intimate with Jesus.
These believers will emerge from the secret closet of prayer—a
small, prepared army full of faith, with no other desire than to do
the will of God and glorify Him. They will be fearless and powerful
in prayer. They will open entire nations for the gospel and God will
confirm His Word by their mighty deeds”
Oh that this would be a prophetic word to us today!
Shalom everyone.
I would like to add an important second part to my unfinished earlier post, which will also deal with the idea of the lack of a willingness to suffer as mentioned by others here.
Again, unlike today where most of our leaders made a career choice, Jesus CALLED the 12 to become His disciples. However, in all fairness I have to admit that there are those who have spent time praying and fasting before getting into pastoring etc. They truly have felt called to get into ministry, and that is certainly a good, first step.
Why is it only the first step?
Let’s look at Peter… Jesus called him. Was that enough though? Obviously not, seeing that he (Peter) denied the Lord 3 times. Even when we’ve heard the call into ministry, unless we continue to surrender and walk solely as He directs THROUGH HIS HOLY SPIRIT, we might end up doing our own thing, devoid of His power to perform any miracles.
Peter was able to do the things he did only AFTER the Holy Spirit took complete hold of him.
Reading about Smith-Wigglesworth, at one occasion when he was invited as guest preacher, he stayed in his hotel-room while the service had already started. The pastor of that congregation was about to say that the guest is not coming when Smith finally walked in. Later Smith explained that he never gets up in front of people unless he strongly feels that God is going to speak through him. He simply did not want to do his own thing. In his Hotel-room he was praying and saying: “Lord, unless You speak to these people, I’m not going.”
Have you ever felt like saying to a preacher,”enough human wisdom already, I want to hear what God has to say?”
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
To ‘fully preach the gospel’ is indeed for our lives and actions to follow our words. If we preach that healing and wonders are for today but don’t really believe (don’t practice them through dependence on and humility before God), we are obviously preaching a partial gospel.
Wilkerson further said in one of the articles: “The miracles of this last-day church will be genuine, indisputable, undeniable, and yet they will not be well known. Instead, they will issue forth from the hands of ordinary, holy, separated saints who know God and are intimate with Jesus.
These believers will emerge from the secret closet of prayer—a small, prepared army full of faith, with no other desire than to do the will of God and glorify Him. They will be fearless and powerful in prayer. They will open entire nations for the gospel and God will confirm His Word by their mighty deeds!”
Love for God and others is the preparation for authority to ‘fully preach the gospel’. As we love God, we believe Him (regarding everything), and He gives us Grace (as He only gives Grace to the humble whose beginning is “Your Word is Truth”) to love others so that He can then invest us with the authority required to do these ‘apostolic signs and wonders’. Regarding those who don’t believe that these things are for our days, God’s Word is Truth.
Great comments from many of you, my friends.
How true that PRAYER is a big key.
Fasting too? – But certainly PRAYER.
Bless you all.
-Andrew
“signs and wonders are for the **unbelievers**, as Jesus had taught. he told His people that the sign of Jonah (Himself) would suffice. we are so signs-driven that we never see Jesus hitch hiking on the pavement, hoping to share time with you along your frenzied way.
Signs and wonders we have no need of but repentant hearts and reaching out in love to those around us who are hurting.”
Amen Gziz Frique, i hadn’t seen this quite so clearly before about the signs and wonders. The reaching out I believe is where His blessing lies, it’s what pleases the Father – this is why Jesus hung around with those whom society rejected.
Healing is also for the whole Body of Christ. Scripture makes this clear.
But yes – the POOR in particular are a people where signs and wonders multiply as the gospel is preached. They have real NEED – and God responds in kind.
Bless you!
Andrew
Behind every literal miracle there is a Spiritual miracle.
it is a ‘miracle’that anyone is saved.A miracle happens when anyone IS saved.
Jesus healed by miracle,he gave the blind their sight,the deaf their hearing and he made the lame to walk.
To be truly saved is to experience all of these together.
Jesus walked on water.the SEA.Mankind is the sea and Jesus rose above and floated above mankind.
Peter tried it once and did it for a little while yet sank back into the world through lack of faith.
We all have the potential to rise up and float above mankind.
Jesus turned water into wine.He used wine elsewhere to signify his blood.We are the water and must become Jesus Christ like.
If we insist on forever seeing literal miracles we miss the miracles occurring amongst us every day.
Fully preaching the gospel is essential.
I would rather hear a preacher preach the FULL Gospel.
The two may not be the same.
Fully preaching a false gospel is to deny others entry into the Kingdom of God.
A little of the true gospel is preferable to a full and complete false gospel.
False gospels entered the church nearly 2000 years ago.What happened to them?
Agree with you Andrew, maybe it could be said that healing for the believer is not a sign and wonder, not on display per se (it is the children’s bread), but when He heals the lost who are being evangelized it is then a sign and wonder – to them.
Amen Thomas2 and Joyce, the harvest is near!
Do not forget that Jesus could not do much in Nazareth!
Why “….he did not many mighty works there:- because of their unbelief.”
This has to be the biggest mountain hindering the Lords people today!
Gods people carried ther idols from the other side of the flood when Abraham left Ur into Canaan, in there saddle bags!
Aaron had made a golden calf! “behold your gods which brought you out of Egypt”
. Joshua on his deathbed commanded Israrel to put them away, they never did! “behold your gods which brought you out of Egypt” Jeroboam:- “behold your gods which brought you out of Egypt” He banned worship of Israel’s God.
David tried to get rid of the peoples idols, All the good Kings of Judah tried for 500 years and failed.
Read Nehemiah chap 9
Under Manasseh they sacificed children and the same day went into the Temple!
Jesus comes on the scene to fulfill Isaiah 61 and the church is born. Less than a century later idols again rear their heads.
John urges the early Church “Little children, keep yourselves from idols” In his day Pergamos, Thyatira were involved with them Rev 2 .
By rev 9. around 600 AD the “churches” are full of idols!
Today our houses are full of them, No longer satues of calves but the “essentials” of modern “so called” life the stuff mom and dad work and slave full time to buy. Most of it we don’t need , the TV that spews forth murder and immoral mayhem – the morals of Sodom, and Gomorrah at our children. Jesus said if the signs He did were done in Sodom, and Gomorrah, they would have repented in dust and ashes!
Folks there are churches where genuine signs and wonders are happening today, if you take the time to search the internet, in amongst the trash, you may be rewarded. The media will not report modern revival! Society is not interested! So it remains “hidden” Our job is to shout it from the house tops!
So here is my two bob’s worth, (ten cents two the modern generation)
http://www.ourgodanswers.com.au
Please do not double click this url, copy it and paste into google search engine! enjoy. face book, twitter, youtube, et al.
I do not ask folk to “come and join us” but rather enjoy the testimoies, prayerfully consider our scripture based “sound doctrine” put it to the test in your walk with Him, and then share over the back fence to your neighbour!
Revival today, with geniune signs and wonders, begins with You and I .
Are we prepared to put away the useless stuff that ocupies our precious time and thoughts, to make it happen? Why not obey Him, redeem the wasted time, and devote it to the Lord?
Pr Michael
Not too long ago, the REVIVAL list sent out a notice of a Sermonindex simulcast. One of the speakers was Carter Conlon. I had never heard of Carter before. He preached a message “Jesus Love People Through Me.” The message was so powerful that when Carter started singing the altar call the presence of God came through my computer.
I was so amazed that I went to the Sermonindex site and saw that others were experiencing the same thing.
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2668
I have since started listening to Carter Conlon’s sermons on Sunday mornings at the Times Square Church. During one message Carter said that he wasn’t waiting for revival, he was walking in it. There is no question of that. May Carter Colon continue to preach Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit.
http://www.tscnyc.org/live_events.php
May Jesus Christ bring revival to our own hearts and love others through us!
Faith brothers and sisters.It all comes down to faith.
The righteous shall LIVE by faith.We are SAVED by faith.Faith moves mountains.
No miracles means only one thing.No faith.
Some pray and petition for miracles.It is a total waste of time.
Miracles do not come by way of prayer.God does not deliver miracles by prayer.
Miracles come smoothly and automatically from FAITH.
The woman who merely touched Jesus’s robe was healed.BY FAITH and FAITH ALONE.
Why so few miracles? So little faith.
Hi, if you double click http://www.ourgodanswers.com.au it does not work, but if you googled it you may find the site.
If you want to double click, here the correct one.
http://www.ourgodanswers.com
Pr Michael
Derek…I think you make a good point about faith, although prayer and petition leading up to receiving one’s miracle wouldn’t hurt either, I think we ought to ask, and even thank the Father in faith beforehand, and not take it for granted. Sometimes He has reasons for allowing need and delaying healing etc, prayer also gives Him an opportunity to speak to us concerning our situation, Paul being an example regarding his thorn.
Also just to add that to me faith is linked to walking in the Spirit, being in the Spirit and at rest so as to be able to receive. It is the substance of things hoped for. That substance being Spirit. Because it is not by power nor by might but by His Spirit.
Once upon a time there was a ‘Christian’ who was talking to God. The ‘Christian ‘ was greatful for his salvation and said to God ” In thanks for your saving me, I will never forget what a worthless piece of crap I was”. God said to him” Well thank you, but that is not what I really want” . The ‘Christian’ continued by saying ” In thanks for your saving me, I will never forgive myself for the things I have done and for not being perfect”. God said to him ” well thank you, but that is not what I really want”. The ‘Christian’ continued by saying ” In thanks for your saving me , I will suffer , live with no joy, in pain and misery for the rest of my life”. God said to him ” Well thank you, but that is not what I really want”. Taken aback, the ‘Christian ‘ asked God what he really wanted. God told him,” I want you to absolutely trust me.walk in victory and be filled with joy to overflowing”. To that, the ‘Christian said, ” Oh Dear God, ANYTHING BUT THAT”
Mum,
Of course we can take God’s promises for granted.To not do so is to doubt his word.A promise is binding and can be taken as done.
Jesus said something about being able to move mountains with faith as small as a mustard seed.Nowhere did he say as long as you pray.
You miss the point mum as so often people do.If we start to think that we must do this or that or it might help if we do this or that then we have NO faith.
Did the sick woman who touched his robe pray for a miracle.If she had done don’t you think that would be important enough for us to have been told about it.
I have experienced miracles in my life mum.I’ve never prayed for one and never asked for one,they just happened because I had faith that they would.God knows our hearts and our minds.Do we have to pray for things he knows we need?
We need miracles,we are healed by miracles.We simply have to touch Jesus,even his very clothing is enough.
Derek, i appreciate what you are saying about faith, as I appreciate many of your contributions. But i’m not sure faith rules out prayer, that’s all, and wondering if you are overstating it..three times Paul prayed and asked the Lord to take away the thorn in his flesh. The woman who had an issue of blood for many years, who touched the hem of Jesus and was healed, if she was a person of faith i can’t imagine that in all those years of her difficulty she had never prayed and asked God to heal her. That said, I don’t doubt at all that the Father moves sovereignly and in response to the faith and needs of His children and we may also receive what we didn’t ask for. He knows ours needs even better than we do ourselves.
When I used the term taking for granted, I was talking about humility, just to clarify. Praying and asking is humbling ourselves. I guess maybe I would put it that there are times to pray and ask and times when our moment by moment communion with the Father is enough. We are told to present our requests to Him, so again i am just thinking perhaps this was just overstated a bit..? Asking is not “doing”, it is just acknowledging that He is God. It isn’t the fact that we are “praying”, it is the fact that we are asking and He chooses to give us what we ask for. I have received healing when i asked for it, within a moment of asking.
It comes down to LOVE. Love thy neighbour as thyself. Faith which works by Love. Love covers a multitude of sins, This is love …..that He first loved us. etc.
By all means don’t stop praying. However in regards to prayer i think it was Finney who left a prayer group rather disgusted because he said they constantly continued to pray for revival, but obviously did not believe God would give it, because if they did then they would stop praying for it and go out and see it happen- which is what Finney then did.
Jesus prayed at the tomb of Lazareth, but only for the sake of those who were standing by!
Peter and John did not kneel and pray with the lame man at gate beautiful. The beggar asked for money, expected money! He received more than he bargained for!
Peter was 100% positive in his approach.
We have no money but we give you this. (he did not offer it) “I have it this, and I give it to you” He said.
Think of the beggars mind if they had said to him. “Would you like us pray for your condition?” or maybe worse “we will go to our meeting to pray and fast for you”
Immediately this approach opens the opportunity for all the doubts and questions to arise, can this work, will God do it, How can this be, how long before something happens – if it can?. The lame man would then be waiting for the feeling that God is going to do something.
Peter did not allow time for any doubt to arise. Peter demanded of the lame man to do the impossible. Yet it happened, when Peter stretched forth his own hand to aid.
The Roman soldier recognised authority “I have it over me and under me, You have it” he said to Jesus, “So just say the word” Jesus marveled at the Romans great faith!
The Spirit filled person has been given authority (privilege-power- exousia)
and (Ability -dunamis)
Do we believe it?
For revival, for the signs of Jesus in our midst, we need three things. Love, Faith, Obedience.
Pr MIchael
The other day I turned on a TV and there was a gospel program on. Behind the preacher in this mega church was a banner that gave the ministries name. It was the name of the pastor followed by the word ministries.
That ministry belonged to that pastor, it was not the Lords ministry but his ministry and had his name attached to it to claim it as his own. I have watched these ministries over the years, They seemed to start off well and over time the Holy spirit withdrew and showmanship slowly replaced the gifts of the spirit and now I see a form of Christian mysticism emerging moving towards the full blown occult.
The biggest problem is that the spirit of prophecy was never tested as the bible instructed with the result that deceptions creped in in small increments and gradually became established as doctrines. In many cases the false is now mainstream.
Yes as we enter this time we are going to see the miracles returning and in a lot of places they have already started. However as the real miracles increase so will the false and confusion will result. This is the nature of the age we find ourselves in.
Yes the production of the false miracles can be bound because they are demonic in nature but few will be doing this simply because they will not be sure or know the difference.
The only true way to make a judgement call is not by the miracle itself but by how the message stands up against scripture. The miracle itself will only show that there are spiritual forces in operation, but th acid test of if it is from God or Satan will be how the message lines up with scripture.
The false is normally the most popular in the harts of men.
Mum i just read last your post above, yes, faith does not rule out prayer! “praying always in The Spirit”
Math 6 6 To me the “closet” is the secret place – alone with the Lord, using the prayer language given to the born again. “I thank my God (said Paul) I speak with tongues more than you all yet in the church….”
I see in my mind’s eye, Paul, on a roman road walking to the next village, using the time he had alone to quietly pray in the Spirit, building himself up in the Most Holy Faith . Maybe this is the secret to Paul’s ministry. He knew exactly what was needed to build up the Faith.. He allready had a great knowledge of scripture, he had been brought up at the feet Gamaliel who taught him the Law.
Pr Michael
Traveler I agree with you!
Too many pastors refer to what they call, “my church, my people” when Jesus purchased them for His own with His own blood. His poeple, His church is the property of no man.
I believe there is too much credence today given to personal prophecy.
Math 12 24 to end
“…….if I by Beelzebub cast out devils,….”
Jesus says something important here.
I find it difficult to believe that lying signs and wonders require too much special insight to be exposed?
Pr Michael
Michael – just a point to ponder. Finney was a huge fan of prayer. He had those thoughts about that prayer meeting when he was unconverted.
But Revival did come soon after – and he was a major beneficiary caught up in the move of God when it came.
-Andrew
No question but what there is a lack of the power of God being displayed. But that is a result of not preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God and not preaching the inworking of the cross within us believers. The “gospel” has been watered down so much that it does not begin to resemble that which Paul preached.
From my experience and observation over the past 44 years, very
few pastors even know what the “gospel” is.
I did find it very interesting that the article refers to Acts 20:11 as “partaking of communion.” What the Scripture says is that he (Eutychus) “had broken bread, and eaten.” According to Bullinger’s “Figures of Speech Used in the Bible,” the “breaking of bread” is a figure of speech which means to partake of a meal (page 627).
Bullinger also says (page 841 of that same masterpiece) that for 700 years after Christ the Lord’s supper was unknown as a separate ordinance.
Wouldn’t it be nice and simple if we could reduce the mighty communion of the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 13:14) down to the natural realm?
About 40 years ago I read in the Columbia Encyclopedia that idolatry (to a Christian) is anything that reduces that which is intended to be spiritual down to the natural level (I paraphrase).
Maybe it is time to stop playing church???
Bob, I agree; it is WELL PAST TIME to stop playing church. And that will happen when the Church stops playing and starts having a Real relationship, one on one, personal, intimate, daily, even hourly, even minute by minute relationship with Jesus Christ. Living a life with Him as your first thoughts in the morning, last thoughts at night, His teachings and the Holy Spirit as your guide, and His Will as your will…. discussing even the little details of your life with Him, carrying His Yoke with you, instead of trying to be Super Christian, Holier than Thou maybe twice a week. Love this thread, the Lord is moving in many ways.
What will be wonderful is when the signs and wonders will become the ordinary for the church… “Oh yeah, I knew God could do that thru us. We will hear more, “He told me too… and silver and gold have I none, but such as I have, I give to thee.”
Some of you talked about prayer and (or) faith.
Praying IS an act of faith, seeing that our God is invisible and it therefore takes faith to assume that God not only exists, but that He also hears our prayers.
However, where does our Christian faith come from to begin with?
Can we drum it up? People have died drumming up faith instead of trusting that God can use medical doctors.
According to Scripture, Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith! (Heb 12:2)
Biblical faith will always have its roots in God. Therefore He alone gets ALL the glory for whatever we do by faith!
Our faith must be based on a strong foundation otherwise it is only wishful thinking: Faith is based on evidence, revelation, and His Word (Rom 10:17).
Evidence:
Jesus healed the sick. Those who came to Him knew that He was able to heal them and also that He was willing to do it, because they had seen the evidence in others. Peter’s faith, allowing him to walk on water was also based on evidence, combined with the Lord’s Word. Not only did Peter see Jesus walk on water, which showed him that it is possible to do so, but Jesus also gave him His Word. “Come on Peter, you can do it. Trust my Word.” (Matt 14:29)
Revelation: God revealed to Noah that He would destroy the earth. Then, trusting God’s Word, Noah built the ark. God spoke to Moses. God’s Word gave Moses the confidence to face Pharaoh. The Lord, through His Word, revealed to Abraham and Sarah that He would give them a son. (Heb 11:11)
Their faith was the confidence and trust that God would keep His promise;
this is the faith that pleases Him, when we don’t doubt His Word (Heb. 10:23)
Jesus’ example of the mustard seed is much like the OT law. The law was given to show us how corrupted we really are, unable, in our own strength to keep it.
Can we have faith like a mustard seed in our own strength?
Jesus basically was saying: “If you would only have the tiniest faith FROM ME, the Author of the kind of faith you need, then you could move mountains.
“I am the Vine you are the branches. Without me you can do NOTHING.”(Jn 15:5)
“Peace, be still, surrender COMPLETELY, trust my Word, and then I will reveal to you many things and I can use you.”
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Andrew,
The apostle Paul said… “In mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel” (v. 19).
————————————————————————————————-
I couldn’t agree more, along with the others here, that the gospel isnt ‘fully preached’ without the signs and wonders.
However, more to the point, I also sense here a great desire for these things to begin, as they ought. And this is where I believe, some great discussion can help bring about these desires to serve – as we ought.
SO, HOW DOES ONE POSITION ONESELF – TO WORK GOD’S MIRACLES.??
1. Perhaps, most fundamental to this requirement would be the seeking for and obtaining the BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.
We see from the scriptures and from a cursory study of the 20th century Miracle evangelists that they virtually all recieved FIRST this Baptism – and then they went on, as God led them, into working God’s miracles as they ministered and preached.
It is interesting that the preaching most often preceeded the miracles.
As far as obtaining this BAPTISM – it is noted that many, many receivers ached in PRAYER for many many weeks and months and sometimes years before God granted them their petition.
In that there was a sacrifice of heart and mind and time spent on their knees calling out in great travail for this ENDOWMENT OF POWER.
And this is where I believe, i would like to invite everyone on this site to come together in the Spirit, in their prayer closet, to agree to ask for and petition for this baptism for ourselves and for our fellow Christians on this site. Like an upper room gathering, asking God for this blessing.
For when a believer has received this BAPTISM, then the outworking of God’s Miraculous usually follows.
2. The second great requirement is WALKING WITH JESUS MOMENT BY MOMENT – in a loving and submitted walk with Him.
There is a man in Australia who lives in Brisbane who walks with God like this and i know from many many testimonies that God has worked many miracles through him. We have an anointing already which is the Salvation deposit of the Spirit in our hearts and God can work mighty things with that ( even though this is not the ideal of the BAPTISM WITH FULL POWER.
This second great requirement irons out every undesirable characteristic in the believer, because as we commune with God He is going to start working in your heart to bring you into all Godliness – of speech, actions and attitude.
Is there anyone on this site who would want to join together to pursue these things – to make a commitment to pledge your time and heart to pursue these things.
What do you say?
David Marsh.
Yes – David – how crucial. An enduement of “power from on high” by the Holy Spirit is utterly essential to the working of miracles – or truly anointed preaching for that matter.
An absolutely vital key, my friend.
-Andrew Strom.
God choose to reveal His son through Paul (Gal. 1:15-16). Paul tells us the price he paid for this in 2 Cor. 4:1-18 and it’s a steep price but if we’re willing to pay the same price perhaps God will use us the same way He used Paul. You can hide yourselves in your prayer closets till the cows come home but if you don’t come out willing to lay down your life for the Gospel’s sake then all you’ve done was a religious exercise.
“Always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.” (2 Cor. 4:10-11)
Andrew i totally agree, prayer is a vital ingredient!
and thank you I have read Finney, had forgotten that he was unconverted at that time.
Pr Michael
Miracles come to us from and through the Godhead,the Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit.
If we have the Holy Spirit we have gifts,the Spirit brings gifts when he comes to us.
He gives gifts to everyone he comes to,everyone.No gift,no Holy Spirit.
If we have a God given Holy Spirit gift it means we are a party to the Godhead through our Lord Jesus Christ.We have to be a pert of his body to be a part of him.
We get there by following him.We follow by Faith.It’s not about love or prayer or revival or anything else.We follow Jesus by faith,receive blessings by faith,are given gifts by faith and move mountains by faith.
If none of these things are happening then we have no faith.Find faith,real faith and all will come.
Please allow me to quote Finney himself This clears up the gaps in my memory! and a wrong assumption on my part.
Charles G Finney
“When I read my Bible I learned what Christ had said in regard to prayer, and answers to prayer. He had said, “Ask, and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall he opened unto you. For everyone that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” I read also what Christ affirms, that God is more willing to give His Holy Spirit to them that ask Him, than earthly parents are to give good gifts to their children. I heard them pray continually for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and not often confess that they did not receive what they asked for.
They exhorted each other to wake up and be engaged, and to pray earnestly for a revival of religion, asserting that if they did their duty, prayed for the outpouring of the Spirit, and were in earnest, that the Spirit of God would be poured out, that they would have a revival of religion, and that the impenitent would be converted. But in their prayer and conference meetings they would continually confess, substantially, that they were making no progress in securing a revival of religion.
This inconsistency, the fact that they prayed so much and were not answered, was a sad stumbling block to me. I knew not what to make of it. It was a question in my mind whether I was to understand that these persons were not truly Christians, and therefore did not prevail with God; or did I misunderstand the promises and teachings of the Bible on this subject, or was I to conclude that the Bible was not true? There was something inexplicable to me; and it seemed, at one time, that it would almost drive me into skepticism. It seemed to me that the teachings of the Bible did not at all accord with the facts which were before my eyes.
On one occasion, when I was in one of the prayer meetings, I was asked if I did not desire that they should pray for me! I told them, no; because I did not see that God answered their prayers. I said, “I suppose I need to be prayed for, for I am conscious that I am a sinner; but I do not see that it will do any good for you to pray for me; for you are continually asking, but you do not receive. You have been praying for a revival of religion ever since I have been in Adams, and yet you have it not. You have been praying for the Holy Spirit to descend upon yourselves, and yet complaining of your leanness.” I recollect having used this expression at that time: “You have prayed enough since I have attended these meetings to have prayed the devil out of Adams, if there is any virtue in your prayers. But here you are praying on, and complaining still.” I was quite in earnest in what I said, and not a little irritable, I think, in consequence of my being brought so continually face to face with religious truth; which was a new state of things to me.
But on farther reading of my Bible, it struck me that the reason why their prayers were not answered, was because they did not comply with the revealed conditions upon which God had promised to answer prayer; that they did not pray in faith, in the sense of expecting God to give them the things that they asked for.
This thought, for some time, lay in my mind as a confused questioning, rather than in any definite form that could be stated in words. However, this relieved me, so far as queries about the truth of the Gospel were concerned; and after struggling in that way for some two or three years, my mind became quite settled that whatever mystification there might be either in my own or in my pastor’s mind, or in the mind of the church, the Bible was, nevertheless, the true Word of God.
This being settled, I was brought face to face with the question whether I would accept Christ as presented in the Gospel, or pursue a worldly course of life. At this period, my mind, as I have since known, was so much impressed by the Holy Spirit, that I could not long leave this question unsettled nor could I long hesitate between the two courses of life presented to me.”
So he was not disgusted at all, but questioning and irritated,
Thanks to
http://www.gospeltruth.net/1868Memoirs/mem01.htm
Pr Michael.
I agree with many on this post. Bob, yes, we need to stop playing Church. The criteria for choosing my place of fellowship when my family moved here recently was simply this: It was the least worldly Church we came across. Additionally, it’s no frills, has dysfunctional people, no rock bands up front and simple, but incisive preaching. I ask God to forgive me when I partake of the ordinance of the wafer and juice, having knowledge that breaking bread has now been reduced from a fellowship meal to token symbolism. But this is not the only thing that has been watered down (the Gospel). And so, I was asked to share during communion, last week.
As it turns out, I flowed with the Spirit and actually gave a testimony during communion of how I was attracted to hymns after having been saved at 27 years of age in a Pentecostal Church. THe Lord led me to a hymn book I found in an old book store in another city (which for years I thought was just beautiful poetry). So I purchased (expensive) and cherished this book. An elderly man pointed out to me years later that the book I cherised was in fact a collection of hymns. SO I asked him: What’s a hymn? He informed that this poetry was praise to God.
I then went to the old op shops, bought old hymn records, and taught myself old hymns, while attending a Pentecostal Church (1993-1999). Now how is it that on that first night I attended CHurch, being healed, delivered, saved, baptised in the Holy SPirit and baptised in water, that I would be suddenly whipped back into time to appreciate something that appears to many post modern Christians as outdated. The Holy Spirit wants to lead us to the will of God and to the truth. How often do we allow the Holy SPirit to anoint us and lead us?
So anyhow, back at communion – I recited the full version of Crown Him With Many Crowns (no music) and continued my message on how we choose to remember the Lord (first thoughts in the morning, last thoughts at night – AMEN Thomas2!). THe elderley loved it, they lit up like a thousand candles on a hill. The “younger” people were, I don’t know, perplexed? We they stired??
We must stop playing Church, and we each must do our bit, as directed by the Lord, to strengthen, encourage, comfort, build one another up and stir one another up to love and good works. I’m disillusioned when it seems that many are not willing to be stired up to love and do good works. We need the Baptism in the Spirit and FIRE, to purge us of dead works, walk in His power and reveal Jesus to us, not the vain repetitions or wisdom of man and not the traditions of man. We have been cheated for too long. We have been asleep too long, sitting in other denominations taking a holiday or sitting in our congregations settling for positive thinking and new age practices. It’s time to break down the barriers and entanglements that hinder, and demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, in our own thought lives.
Holiness is vital to people seeing the Lord. I often wonder whether the quiet achievers, prayer closet warriors, those obedient and faithful to His commands, will simply be caught away with Him because they are spotless. Perhaps they walk in revival continually, as the day approaches. Signs and wonders are happening, when the Gospel is being preached, but only a handful get the testimony, even less get to share it with others, because the traditions of men prevail over acknowleding the work of the Holy Spirit. I think it was in Stanley Frodsham’s book on Wigglesworth, who stated that Christian organisations start well but inevitably develop a form of control. Wigglesworth has also been known to speak for five minutes then sit down, asking if anyone else had a word from the Lord. What I like about him is not the great miracles he wrought or the depth of his relationship with the Lord, as much, but the mere fact that God used an illiterate, uneducated stammerer, who had the best work ethic I ever read about. I believe that if Christians simply emulated his work ethic, many would be won for the Lord. But sadly, many want the working of signs wonders and miracles, without the character development and without entering into the fellowship of His (Christ’s) suffering, as stated above. But a note of sobriety – I have seen people with gifts, but the greatest gift I have witnessed in an individual in my lifetime, was also the one who perpetrated the greatest deceptions. We each have our walk with God, let us keep our eyes on Him.
Lately, I have resolved to pray that others will be endued with power from on high. David, let us pray like so. Thanks Andrew, through you posting, you have not only facilitated intelligent discussion, but also given us opportunity to reflect on our own weaknesses and experience the grace given by others on this post.
Possibly I may have misunderstood your intent previously Derek. Your most recent post above mine here I think I see better what you’re getting at. Trying to communicate on an internet forum is one thing, and trying to grasp what is written sometimes is another! I’m not sure I’m up to it today, so will just leave it at this, and will ask for understanding. If I try to say much more right now I will probably just confuse the matter.
okay, i’ll just risk this and hope I don’t regret it: Where you said it is a waste of time to pray for a miracle, I still feel that may have been overstating your intent.. ? At this point i don’t agree with that statement as it stands, but I do appreciate what you are highlighting about faith.
For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory …
Everyone wants the power and the glory, but the kingdom of God comes first in Scripture,
I have even heard a good brother preach about a “baptism in glory” which is supposedly available now to every Christian.
But unless we press into the kingdom of God, there will be no power.
In the kingdom of God, all of the “elders” cast their crowns (what they have become) down before Him.
The kingdom of God is not in word but in power.
Who preaches the kingdom of God?
Who even knows that there is such a thing as the kingdom of God?
I am not sure I have ever heard any pastor preach on the kingdom of God (in 44 years).
Likewise I am not sure I have ever heard any pastor preach on the working of the cross within believers (which is the power of God … 1 Corinthians 1:18).
Tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Christians equate being born again with entering into the kingdom of God.
That is because of two things … the work of the devil to keep Christians ignorant and out of the kingdom and the traditions of men, as inspired by the devil.
May God have mercy on us!
If we spent the amount of time praying that we do discussing and reasoning…….we would no longer be such an impotent Church. WE have all the answers but unless we pray them from the Spirit into this natural realm……we really have no answers at all. For all the answers we have….why is it that 97% of all humans die and go into hell? Why is our world unreached? Why are we powerless? Seems like we rarely go to where the power is in the Throne Room and spend enough time there to come out endued with His Mighty Power! Fasting and long seasons of intercession….is a foreign concept to most Christians today! We would rather spend long hours talking to each other than long seasons spent in our Father’s Holy Presence!
The harlot church prays too. Part of the problem with powerlessness is that the Father must first of all restore the foundations. It isn’t enough to come out of the harlot church and rebuke her, it is that we ourselves need to have the foundation of the gospel of Christ restored. I see this as a sovereign work of God as we watch, pray, ask, seek, knock, follow.
Mum,
I respect your understanding and thank you for your reply to me.I have to share what I believe to be the truth about prayer because it is so important.God speaks to us by his recorded word in Holy Scripture.Each and every word is chosen by God before it is written down for us.So important is every word that he says to us,To even switch words around and put one before the other leads to corruption in what God is saying.
Prayer is how we talk to God.Our choice of words to say is of equal massive importance.How we pray and what we say tells God all about us,what our motives are for praying,how true our understanding is of his word and tells him whether or not our prayers should be answered by him.
I have sat through many a church service where prayers were offered for all sorts of things that are not relevant to God’s will.Congregations sit in silent prayer for politicians,for firemen,for policemen.for nurses.for the military and so much more.
These are people of the world,with worldly lives.Yes they serve their community but are they disciples?Are they believers?
To uncover how we should pray and what we should pray for we must do what we always need to do to find truth.Who is the truth on all Spiritual matters? “I am the way,the TRUTH and the life”.
Jesus,our Lord and master,prayed.
Read John17:1-26.
This is prayer to God.No request for miracles,no prayers for the world.This is the true template.If we insist on adding other stuff then God knows who we really are and why we ask.
Jordan,
It is interesting to read you speak of communion as the wafer and the juice.This ordinance as you call it performed by churches is nothing more than a ritual.
The bread was broken and the wine poured by Jesus privately for DISCIPLES.The members of the body of Christ came together in private in Jesus whilst he was with them,in his physical presence.
Here was Jesus showing his DISCIPLES that whenever they come together in private they form the body of Christ complete and the head of the body is there present with them.He tells them you will never need to look for me again,just come together in unity of doctrine,in unity of following ,in unity of true understanding.in unity of the Holy Spirit and my body and my blood will be present with you and within you.Together we,at that time,will form a complete body of GOD.
I no longer partake of the churches communion ritual and I am unable to partake of the true communion for the present time because I find DISCIPLES so very hard to find.I suggest that it is on a par with finding a needle in a haystack
Joyce:
…why is it that 97% of all humans die and go into hell?
—————————————————————————
Yikes…, Joyce, please let God decide who goes or doesn’t go to Hell in the end. That judgement is the most terrifying and crucial one, which only belongs into the hands of the One who created Humans to begin with! A REAL study of the Scripture in Matthew, were Jesus is judging and separating the sheep and goats, shows that it’s not as straightforward is it may seem at first glance.
There are 3 groups of people in that Scripture. 1. the sheep who are very surprised and who obviously DO NOT know His voice, but are known by Him. (They obviously never read this Scripture either or they would know what’s coming, and there is NO pretending in front of the Lord!).
2. the goats who THINK they know Him, but are not known by Him.
3. His brethren. (the least of these…)
Jesus as the One true Judge has the final say in whom He judges to become His sheep on that day! (Only someone who is not clearly and obviously guilty or righteous needs to be judged. i.e. satan or any blasphemer of the Holy Spirit is condemned already by His Word and need not to be judged. As well as anyone who carries Jesus in him (His brethren in that Scripture) does not need to be judged as they have died already, crucified with Him, and have become a new, righteous creation in Him. Otherwise He would judge Himself in that person, which doesn’t make sense.)
————————————————————————————
On the subject…
There are many wonderful, inspiring posts here. Thanks, Michael, for posting Finney. It’s good to be reminded again that others struggle(d) with this issue too.
In my earlier post I addressed the issue of faith, and that we can’t drum it up.
Jesus IS the Author and Finisher of our faith and without Him we can do nothing, so it says in Scripture. I did a little study on the word chosen/choose/ chose…
It really seems that things are NOT up to us to just decide…
There seems to be a tension between what we should or must do, and the fact that “without Him we can do nothing”. In other words, all I have or do comes from Him or through Him.
Perhaps we could share some testimonies of how God worked in our lives to make it a little more practical.
As for myself, I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit after weeping on the floor for hours and realizing my brokenness, and asking the Lord to give me something that would allow me to worship Him even deeper. Next thing I was speaking in tongues, rejoicing and praising Him in an un-known language.
Years later, OUT OF NOWHERE, (meaning I did not change or do anything different in my walk with Him), I found myself enveloped in His Spirit all day long for many months on end. I worked at a factory during that time with a lot of machine noise, which allowed me to sing and praise Him all day long at the top of my lungs. I was so drawn to praise and focus on Him, it was unexplainable, like a miracle really.
But, it did not last forever. Again, I did not change, my love did not change.
But slowly that strong draw vanished. It just left the way it came.
Any thoughts or testimonies my friends?
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
DEREK: In a post above you said:
“So important is every word that he [God] says to us,To even switch words around and put one before the other leads to corruption in what God is saying.”
In which book of the Bible, chapter, and verse(s) does God say this?
To my earlier, short little testimony…
I should add that, prior to the time when I felt so close to Him in His Spirit for a few months, I went through a time of a growing frustration with a church my wife and I helped plant. I took part in leadership and was on the worship team. After a few years the lead pastors jumped onto the bandwagon of the seeker-sensitive movement. I strongly opposed such a people focused agenda. To top it all off they decided to do the Rick Warren 40 days of purpose scheme. Needless to say, I resigned from my involvement and became just a member of the congregation. It was during that time that the Spirit heavily showed up in my life as I described in my last post. (We hung in there for a couple more years and then left for good.) I am sure that there is something we might call a “holy” frustration or discontentment with the status quo, which is sparked by the Holy Spirit. Martin Luther and others obviously encountered such a frustration.
Anyway, I am looking forward to reading about some of your experiences as far as when, and perhaps why, the Holy Spirit all of a sudden shows up in a much more powerful way when you can almost smell His presence wherever you are.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
ok Derek, thanks, you are presenting an interesting thought here and I will need to think on it. I agree with you about not corrupting even a jot or tittle of the scriptures, maybe that’s the verse Wayne is looking for.
also to add that I have communion alone sometimes, fellowship with Jesus even if with no-one else, a participation in His sacrifice, and have been blessed and strengthened in so doing.
Derek Hale …
I like the comments you make about communion. I think we may be on the same page on that topic.
Many years ago, the Holy Spirit sovereignly took me through all of the Scriptures which pertain to what most Christians call “communion.”
I wrote a fairly lengthy article about “communion” as a result.
If you email me at bob.padgett@netzero.net I will send you what I received on that subject.
In Christ,
Bob
David Wilkerson has consistently been a voice worth listening too; and this piece is no less powerful than many of his other messages. I just received from his ministry an article entitled: “A Passion for Christ”, and it touched my heart deeply.
I believe we’ll see profound moves of God’s Spirit when we – the Body – hurt for the lost as much or more than we yearn for signs & wonders. They “follow” the giving of the Gospel which is, as we know, the power of God unto salvation (Romans 15:18-20, Hebrew 2:1-4).
Let’s not forget, even false messiahs have the ability to perform signs & wonders (Matthew 24:24j, 1 Thess. 2:9), and some people insist upon them before they’ll believe (John 4:48), though Jesus said signs alone – even one so powerful as a person risen from the dead – would not cause men to receive the salvation God offers (Luke 16:18).
I pray we’ll see more signs & wonders in the days to come, and that in conjunction with believers committing to obedience to & passion for Him.
I think you guys are missing a point here.
The original Apostles went out preaching the gospel and it was followed by the signs and wonders.
When the gospel is preached correctly and in the spirit it is intended then the signs and wonders follow. If there is any error then the miracles are with held.
This is a teaching mechanism. God will only confirm that which is correct. If there is any error then he holds back. This is where the church is tripping up, we have a whole lot of doctrines that we beat each other over the head with but they are not being confirmed which means they are not correct anyway. This is why the miracles are only been seen by only the very few.
Too often the letter of the scripture is applied as law with out consideration for the spirit in which it was intended.
Why aren`t there many signs and wonders seen today? Because that kind of authority and power can only be given to a matured church. There is still too much junk in us that would make that kind of authority and power destructive if it were given to us. We must be broken and brought to the end of ourselves. It will come when holiness and righteousness is restored to the church.
Wayne,
You and I must not ‘lock horns’ again as we have previously on this site and in e-mail.It is not God’s way and it grieves the Holy Spirit.If we are to continue we must both bare this in mind.
God tells us that we must believe ON Jesus Christ to be saved.
Churches often leave people understanding that we must believe IN Jesus Christ.
One little letter of the alphabet changed.Just a tiny little letter.
One is the true gospel and the other leads us to a myriad of false gospels.
Some say, well what’s the difference?
This is the darkness in Christianity that is so hated by our Father.
If we are only required to believe IN our lord Jesus then there is no need to follow him,no need to deny self,no need to have our own personal cross,no need to be made perfect,no need to overcome.
We must be made alike to Jesus Christ.Have you met anyone like Jesus lately? I sure havn’t.I know I’m not like him either.
Did our Lord sacrifice everything including his life just for us to believe IN him?
Satan believes IN him.If Satan believed ON him then he would follow him,seek the Spirit and WORK on himself to become like him.
Believing IN him is so easy.It’s a doddle to do.Did our Lord come just for that?
Traveller,
As I see it you have the cart before the horse.so to speak.
Signs and wonders come WITH the preaching of the gospel not after it.
The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost BEFORE the preaching.They come together,they are inseparable.Preaching in the Spirit will always be accompanied by signs and wonders if the preacher has those particular gifts.
It is not the miracles that are the teaching mechanism as you say.The mechanism, as you put it, is the Holy Spirit.Teaching brings about learning in others.It is the learning that matters not the teaching. Teachers can talk all day and it is pointless if no-one is learning.Signs and wonders are merely teaching aids.
It is all about the learner not the teacher.The Holy Spirit works in the learner to bring revelation of truth.If we have the Holy Spirit,truly have the Spirit then we cannot go wrong.True teaching is mightily powerful and false teaching is easily spotted by the Holy Spirit.
False doctrines are so easily accepted because there is so little of the Holy Spirit about.For the same reason signs and wonders are so absent from the world.
Derek – That is correct, communion is a ritual, and the context is as intimate as you have portrayed. The only thing I liked about this time of ritual is when I shared, and used it as a licence to preach the Gospel. For some reason, I noticed that people focused more of their attention at this time that during the time of the sermon. I know that seems like a cop out, but I love the Gospel, and many Christians do not get an opportunity to hear it in their Churches, so I use this time to re-invigorate the message in the hearts of those who have an ear to hear.
Would you believe, I once asked a Salvation Army minister why he didn’t preach the Gospel, since he admitted that over half the congregation were not saved. He said, they would be offended and not come back. I wonder if the truth is that many ministers do not know the Gospel.
I was led of the Spirit to study the Gospel for the first five years of my walk with God. I didn’t know this at the time. But when I looked back recently over the books I read and the Scriptures I meditated on, they all = the Gospel. It was just the Lord speaking and giving me incremental steps along the way. By the way, the Lord healed me after a month of meditating on the word, as a bonus to instructing me on the Gospel.
As I have posted, I have shared the Gospel thousands of times in the last 20 years. That does not make me an expert. I longed to speak to, and pray with, other like minded people. I invited a Church of 500 pentecostals to begin the journey of personal evangelism in a loving non-threatening environment. One lady turned up and the Church minister forgot, so the door was locked and the meeting never got started. I have other examples, but my point is this: Perhaps the way is narrow, and only few find it. I keep saying to my wife: Why can’t I meet anyone who is passionate for Christ? Yes, Derek, where are the Disciples?
And Mum, I totally agree, the foundations of the Gospel must be restored. In my booklet on evangelism, one of the Chapters is titled: “Caution, evangelism may shipwreck your faith.” Of course it is tongue in cheek, what I intend to convey is that when people dig into the Gospel and tell others about repentance and belief, they are forced to abandon their own hypcrisy, humble themselves and adhere to the truth. That will “shipwreck” the bubble they lived in and confront them with some touch decisions. It goes deep. Sometimes after I share the Gospel with people I am convicted and I know it wasn’t me speaking, but the Lord, not because I am accomplished or good, but because it evidences to me just how hungry the listener is and how enormous is the love of Christ for that lost soul, because there is no way in my natural strength that I could articulate it all so clearly and refreshingly (though confronting) and in the locations and perfect timing that only He deserves the credit for – that really moves me. It is such a joy to share the Gospel. I love the Gospel. And so does the Holy Spirit.
Well my take on it all is that signs and wonders happened to validate that Paul was indeed an apostle and was sent to them to tell them the good news about Jesus Christ. That effectually, he was moving in the power of God just like Jesus did so that he would have authority and that they would listen to what he had to say. Then when the New Testament scripture was beginning to be written the signs and wonders began to disappear because it was not needed anymore. We have God’s word now and do not need signs and wonders unless of course God determines to do something. I am tired of seeing all these so called signs and wonders these days that eventuate from the power of suggestion etc. Miracles and healings were always INSTANT but now we have people saying ‘just claim the healing’ ‘receive it with faith’ etc, sounds like positive thinking to me, and not the biblical model at all. And if these miracle healers really did have the ‘gift’ and ‘love’ to go with the gift then why arent they going to hospitals day in and day out and doing doctors and nurses out of a job??? There are only 2 options: Because they dont really have gifts of healing in the first place or they are selfish and dont really ‘love’ people, which according to the word they shouldnt operate in gifts or else theyll just be like a clanging bell! The good news today is simply that ‘news’ not signs and wonders, a simple a message even a child can understand on the problem, the consequences, the solution and the cost! More blessed is the person who believes without seeing. Thats real faith. xxx
Jordan,
” Lately, I have resolved to pray that others will be endued with power from on high. David, let us pray like so.”
Jordan, I also will pray likewise.
Let the Lord now prepare and Baptise those whom He chooses.
God bless you Jordan’
David Marsh
P.S. Is there anyone else who will join with us?
Why do you need to be endowed with power from on high?… you have God’s Spirit joined with your spirit (Romans) therefore you already have God’s power from on high within. Gotta get rid of these darned pentecostal cliches and ideas, back to the word.
I liked one of the comments that suggested that miracles show that there are spiritual forces at work…the question is…are they from God or satan? And that our gospel message needs to line up with scripture, so true.
Yes David, I also am seeking, asking and waiting on God for this again. I used to often see miracles through prayer and laying on of hands in my early years, but am hungry for God to be gloried more through miracles, signs and wonders.
Hi Gary,
That is wonderful.
The Baptism is the Full Power of the Abiding presence of the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ.
It would be great to discuss this with you further. Please email me at – ekklesia2010@gmail.com – so we can talk
I already have Jordan’s email address.
Looking forward to hearing from you,
yours in our Lord.
David Marsh
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
I believe that God is a God of the miraculous so very open to God working in signs and wonders, however this verse is not teaching that to preach the full Gospel signs always need to follow. Its talking about preaching the full Gospel in the power of The Spirit .. explaining fully its truths, challenges and implications.. and preaching everywhere and to everyone, in the power of the Spirit
I doubt whether Wesley, Whitefield, Finny etc etc always had signs after they preached the Gospel. So does that mean that the Full Gospel wasn’t preached and therefore a waste of time. So if signs and wonders have to be present for the full Gospel to be preached does that mean when they aren’t present that it is not the Gospel? If it is not the full Gospel what is it half a Gospel or is it even a false Gospel?
The verse talks about “Fully preaching the Gospel” preaching is all about verbalising the good news not about signs and wonders. The Gospel is something preached verbalised, it is made up or words. The bible said .. “it please God through the foolishness of the Gospel preached to save the lost” or
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Rom 10:19
So the Words of the Gospel are different from the effects of the Gospel. The greatest miracle is the conversion of a human heart where God takes them from the kingdon of darkness into the kingdom of His son, where God bring someone who is DEAD in tresspasses and sins alive… powerful stuff. Paul said he wasn’t ashamed of the Gospel for is a powerful message that has a powerful effect in the lives of people.
Heb 2 :3 and 4 “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
We see here that the Gospel is something that is “spoken” and God according to His soveriegn will will from time to time confirm with signs following. We cannot force it.
Perhaps we have these evangelist running around with bad theology that think for the “full Gospel” to be preached there has to be obvious demonstration of miracles so therefore engineer it, so it becomes something organise by the will of man and not the will of God. We can’t force it. We just need to be open to God working in this way.. through and focus on communicating the “full Gospel” the “whole council of God” with all of its implication.. sin, judgement, crucifixion , resurrection..etc 1 Cor 15: and alow God according to His will to produce confirming manifestation of power
Perhaps the “sign’s” aren’t following the preaching of the word because the “full Gospel” is not being preached? Would God want to confirm a half a Gospel and therefore a false Gospel. Paul preached the Full Gospel and then signs accompanied the revelation of truth and confirmed that what Paul was saying was authentic.
The Gospel is to be PREACHED!! Lets god into all the world and preach the (“Full”) Gospel and be expected that God according to His will to confirm..
So Gary, what miracles were these? Can u be really specific and were they instant and permanent? I dont mind being proven wrong and that miracles are for today afterall :)
DEREK: If you wish to accuse me of “locking horns” when I ask an honest question, then you are free to do so, but the “locking of horns” is not coming from my end.
In your plethora of words, I don’t believe I saw my question answered. If it is possible for you to do so, I would appreciate it – just book, chapter, and verse. That’s all.
Through prayer the blind have seen, crippled hands have been totally healed, demons driven out and addictions broken instantly, [other healings were instant, blindness took a few minutes] To be honest I saw most healings in 3rd world countries, but a few were not.
Once I was fixing some equipment at a church and someone with serous migraine headaches and a loss of feeling on the left of their body from a serous assault let me pray for them. They were instantly healed… and a steel plate in their skull vanished, They turned to God and years later were still telling people they were healed by a caretaker.
One street person came with me to an outreach and deliverance meeting, they went forward to repent and for ministry and were healed of deafness in one ear.
As far as I know all these were permanent healings. I am only telling these because you asked, at the time I was as surprised as the people were, and they were nothing to do with me or any power I have, I was an audience to the power of God.
I have also seen people fake it, force it or say they were healed while they remained sick, this doesn’t discount the true ministry of healing though.
Shazza – I really appreciate your questions and sincerity. You say that Paul’s operation of signs and wonders was to validate the office of the apostle and so the people would listen to him. Yes, he came not with elequent speech, but with demonstration and power of the Spirit. You say now we don’t need signs and wonders because we have the word of God. I cannot refute you in that the word of God is supreme. In fact, I keep reminding the signs and wonders camp that the Gospel is the power of salvation, not miracles. But have they disappeared? I’m not sure I am convinced of this.
I trust in the Gospel and the grace of God to effect salvation. I have one problem. The first time I came to Church at age 27, I received Jesus as Lord. On that night I was baptised with the Holy Spirit (endued with power) and in the following months I wrought signs and wonders, through the power of God. I was not led by man’s traditions as I never attended Church before this time. I heard no person ever speak in tongues except myself on that night, and each night thereafter, without the prompting of man. I left Church two weeks after being born again because the foundations group leader would not answer my questions. I continued to operate with signs. For example, I rebuked a person over the phone and commanded a demon to leave – both myself and the other person heard the demon shrieking in fear over the telephone line. I cursed an evil order operating down the street from where my sister lived. Their building burnt down that night (I started to fear God from that time onwards). I was a baby Christian then. Now, I don’t really care about having the miracles or signs operating and I don’t purport to be an apostle, but this I believe – that somehow being endued with power from on high is connected to having authority over demons, laying hands on the infirmed and other such things.
I don’t want a theological argument because I always try to match what is written with what is practiced. I am also mindful that some people need deliverance from darkness. I am open to anyone explaining to me how spiritual gifts operate without being endued with power. If I had a choice however, – the ability to operate in the miraculous, the ability to preach the Gospel or the ability to love people unconditionally, I would choose all three, from the latter first, through to the former. The Gospel will save the soul, the miraculous will minister physical and spiritual wholeness and the unconditional love will bear witness of Christ. I know I would be of more benefit to explain further examples and the questions I have had using face to face communication, unfortunately we experience the limitations of human written speech on this good forum.
In saying all this, I would rather people take a position and be teachable, rather than have apathy or complacency. For that I applaud you. And please, I have only been a Christian for a short time (twenty years) so have patience with me. I have been working out the excesses of Pentecostalism for 11 years now, but I cannot ignore the restoration of (genuine) gifts as part of the contribution to biblical Christianity this movement should be credited with. I now not only see the excesses of Pentecostalism, but also the pathetic and lukewarm centres of mediocrity represented in parts of other denominations.
My concern is that the wider body is not encouraged to love and welcome the truth and to hunger and thirst for righteousness. We can sit back and say we have God’s word. But we must desire that word to penetrate deep, having knowledge of Him, knowing not only the hope of our calling, the riches of our inheritance, but also the exceeding greatness of His power – His power to change us and others, whatever that takes. In Thessalonians 2:10, Paul states ….”they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” If we look at the prior verses, I believe Paul is is also talking about people who have never genuinely fallen in love with the Lord Jesus Christ and his teachings. As we seek to understand the Lord and His word, we should also take into account the personal testimonies of believers. I don’t mean tv christians, I mean people in our own and other fellowships. A sincere and timely testimony should compliment biblical teaching so as to edify, strengthen, encourage and comfort one another. Let God do his inner work in us and when all is said and done, what are we to do – Fear God and keep His commandments. How can we do that? Thankfully receive His Promises – His provision of power, peace, joy, love ….. God bless.
Wayne, I gave you a verse – “not one jot or tittle will pass away until..”, I’m sure you know where to find that in the Bible – Jesus’ own words. I put this forward for you in spite of the fact that it seemed to me also that you weren’t so much looking for a chapter and verse, you seemed more to be looking for a jugular, to be quite honest.
I’m surprised that you would challenge this assertion and think it’s okay to change/alter anything of the original text as written in the Bible. This is the very reason so many study the original languages – as i thought you did also. For me personally I’m shocked and dismayed sometimes at the liberty that has been taken in translating the bible, just when comparing verses in the NIV with the King James, for example. Just recently I would have been robbed of a very precious truth if I had not checked something with the King James, even though I understand that one not to be perfect either.
What has become apparent to me is that translators often change wording when they can’t accept what is actually written, they can’t believe God actually meant what He said, they think He must have really meant something else so they change the scripture to fit what THEY THINK He really meant! Not realizing that it is THEIR THINKING that is ENMITY with God that needs to be changed and renewed by the truth that was actually written – the washing of the water of the word.
What also comes to mind is a verse in the OT condemning the “lying pen of the scribes” – and I’m sure there is a lot more just not coming to mind at the moment.
MUM:
Yes, you made reference to a verse – which did not say what Derek was saying.
The words you referenced were taken from Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:17 – “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”
In what way is this verse equal to “So important is every word that he says to us,To even switch words around and put one before the other leads to corruption in what God is saying.” (Derek Hale)?
If that is the translation according to MUM or DEREK, then I would suggest it is a translation which should be avoided. It would seem that such a translation is “corrupt” as it obviously changes what the Word actually says.
It would seem from previous posts that neither you or Derek have studied the languages the Bible was originally written in, so I can only assume Derek was referring to the English translations. According to what Derek is saying, every translator is “corrupting what God is saying” because they use different words in their translations. I fail to see in God’s Word where God gives this warning to translators. (Perhaps, though, you and Derek might want to heed Derek’s OWN words in your own writings.)
On the contrary, translation, of necessity, uses a variety of words/meanings and may even “switch words around” in order to make the original thought understandable to the English reader.
Contrary to your false assumption, I do not ” think it’s okay to change/alter anything of the original text as written in the Bible.” It is one reason I study and refer to the original texts. It is one of the reasons I endeavour to be accurate in what I say and what I claim the Bible says – contrary to some who pontificate on this site.
Concerning translations, it is not so much a matter of “translators often chang[ing] wording when they can’t accept what is actually written” as you claim (except for some obscure, abberant “translations” most notable of which is the “New World” Bible of the Jehovah’s Witnesses).
Many times there can be different, but equally valid translations of the same passage. Anyone who fluently speaks two or more languages is aware of the difficulty of translating some idioms and words from one language to another. Sometimes there is a commonality of thought in one culture which may be absent in another. It then becomes a difficulty to convey that thought in a concise way to readers of another culture who may be unfamiliar with the original.
Perhaps I could offer you some information on translations, which might help with your concern about the vast differences in translations. It can aid greatly for one to know the purpose and background of various translations. For example, some like the NIV have been translated by evangelical Christian scholars; some like the Revised English Bible by liberal scholars; some like the New American Standard Bible were written to be more word-for-word (literal) translations (not to be confused with the American Standard Bible which was translated from a Roman Catholic background); some like the New Living Translation are meant to be less literal and more thought-for-thought translations; still others are not true translations, but rather a person’s paraphrase such as The Living Bible and The Message.
Some translations lend themselves better to reading a whole book in a sitting to get the general idea of what is being said. Others lend themselves better to a more indepth verse-by-verse study.
There is information available at most Christian bookstores and online which can help give you guidance as to the background and purpose of individual translations. Might I suggest, that a variety of translations of conservative evangelical background will help the non-linguistic believer to gain a good insight into what the originals were saying to the peoples they were written to. A suggested good cross-section might include KJV, NASB, NLT, AMP, NIV(1984).
Here are several websites which will help give background on the most common English Versions is:
http://www.tateville.com/translations.html
http://www.cokesbury.com/FreeDownloads/BibleTransGuide.pdf
http://www.xristian.org/theology/bibletranslations-guide.html
May the Spirit of Christ guide you as you seek Him in His Word.
Wayne
“John performed no sign, but all the things that John spoke about this Man were true.” – John 10:41
I do agree that God attests His servants by signs and wonders. But many a times, a word from God that we hear from the mouth of His servants is powerful, even if there are no signs and wonders.
In the last 2 to 2 1/2 years i’ve been seeking the Lord more than any other time.
We found ourselves jobless, outcasts from churches, and wrongfully judged.
We also have seen relationships be miraculously restored, migrane headaches permantly healed, pain of cancer being healed so an old woman could go to her rest with knowledge of a loving family around her, while another old woman came to repentace through the same type of pain, baskets of apples yeild 2x the canned jars as usual, and poverty being lifted in surprising ways.
But the Gospel, and what it means to serve the Lord were/are being pursued above everything else
Jordan and Gary; Thanks, will have to reply later on today (its 6.30am) as I have to go to work, but will have a good read. Just to add that I too have been a Christian only 26 years and steeped in Pentecolalism for all of these as well and am seriously questioning all that is done in this movement. I know God can do anything He pleases, just listening to other messages from others that believe what is done under the guise of this movement consider it done under the power of suggestion, co-ershion etc. Get back to you later…..
We need Signs and Wonders? We need Jesus above all else. Jesus knows the things that shall be added unto us, when first we seek the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness. People sitting him barking from there computer, we need this and we need that solves absolutely nothing concerning the Kingdom of God. The lack of wisdom and the lack of the fear of God is what many are missing. Why sit around speaking forth such absurdities that many dont realize the very words are weighed, Yes weighed. So many on here point fingers, while seated in comfort and ease and your own (spiritual)house is a mess. Sadly, the walk with Lord is not where it should be for many, yet we say we need this, we need that. The Lord will not bring forth His gifts in a prideful people or religious people. It is with humbleness and humility that the Lord looks upon the heart of His faithful, sold out, blood bought, eyes on the Lord people. He is Looking for those who have the fear and trembling of the Lord. Who are not prideful , nor puffed up in their own vain imaginations.
The Apostate have always been in error and one of the biggest errors is believing she is the True Church, speaking forth that the true church is sick. That is a lie of the devil, for the True church is alive and well, sitting at the very feet of Jesus and learning of Him, for they are very much hidden in Christ. This is through the eyes of the apostate whom speak forth looking as in beholding a mirror and saying such things. the apostate is not the true church and she is sick, and is a fornicator and commits adultery. the apostate has no idea what Gods true church looks like because they beat the sheep, Gods true sheep and run them out. nothing has changed. the pharisees and scribes abhored Jesus and His signs, miracles and wonders. Jesus said he came to make those see blind and those that are blind SEE. What will the apostate do when Gods Holy people come walking in a flame of Holy fire and with Power, not boasting in themselves but boasting in the Name of there Lord and Savior, King of Kings and lord of Lords. Not coming in their own name but in His Name. No agendas of their own, but orders from on High.
Jesus is the Light of the World, we say this all the time, however read in Hosea light as being as the Lords judgement.
4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?
What shall I do with you, O Judah?
Your love is like a morning cloud,
like the dew that goes early away.
5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets;
I have slain them by the words of my mouth,
and my judgment goes forth as the light.
6 For I desire steadfast lovea and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
Shazza and Tim, you made some very good points. Thank you!
The greatest miracle is a soul saved! And for that to happen,…I’ll join the highly educated Apostle Paul. All I have left, all that I need to know, is Christ and Him crucified!
Healings? I’ve had migraine headaches now for almost 40 years! I am just in the middle of one. I’ve also had much other pain in my body, but NOTHING compares with pain right at “central station”!
Do I believe in healing? ABSOLUTELY! Do I wish to be healed? YOU BET! (I live with pain or at least pressure in my head every day!) Have I gone up in church or conferences or meetings or home-groups etc., etc., to be prayed for and receive healing? LOL What a “funny” question! (I lost count…)
But, BUT…
“What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, clothing, food, shelter, a healthy, WORLDLY physical body, etc., etc., and then, in the end, he loses his soul?
Is my body not part of this fallen, worldly trash? Will I get a new body (the real thing) when I go to be with Him? Ah, YES!!
Did Jesus ALWAYS heal AFTER He preached and taught? Did He not heal and kick out some demons FIRST in order to get people’s attention so they would listen attentively to His teachings?
Is there a formula (Box), or is God sovereign? Did He CLEARLY say in His Word that signs and wonders HAVE TO follow ones preaching and teaching?
I tell you, if our focus is so much on this side of life rather than on the REAL LIFE that is yet to come, which is eternal, we might just miss the mark. Is not the worldly world running after everything that makes life HERE “good” and easy?
Is God sovereign? Is His grace perhaps sufficient to get us through? Might this just be a powerful testimony? (Joni Erickson)
The answer that I have received more than any other answer to countless prayers for healing (and many other prayers) is the hardest answer to swallow, an answer that clearly shows that God is indeed sovereign:
“TRUST ME!”
Nick V., a young preacher without any limbs said this:
“God doesn’t necessarily change your circumstances, but He gives you a new heart.”
about Nick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUas9uNPDuM
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
I was afraid this was going to happen Wayne.I will not get into an argument with you at the detriment of everybody else.
I would like to answer your question with examples of where word have been changed.There are many of them but I have a strong feeling that you will dispute that the changes are a problem.
It is a matter of the Holy Spirit Wayne.The Spirit shows us all things.I have to tell you that without the Holy Spirit we often do not understand the importance of certain phrases or repetitions.
Jesus sometimes said things three times.When he used different words or phrases to repeat something the translators have correctly left his words intact but sometimes he repeated himself exactly or almost exactly and some translations omit the repeats.
I believe the translators left the repeat out because they thought the repeats were unnecessary.Whatever the reason it shows a lack of Holy Spirit in the translators. Jesus never,ever wasted word.Every word was a word directly for God.Jesus said so.”These are not my words”.”I say only what I hear my Father say”.
God never waste words.Never.
If something is repeated and spoken 3 times it is for good reason.I know the good reason Wayne.The translators clearly did not.
Jesus said,”Ask and it will be given to you,seek and you will find,knock and the door will be opened to you”.
This verse carries the very same message spoken three times and spoken with three metaphors.It is the very same message.Why did Jesus say this message 3 times one after another?
Jesus asked Peter if Peter loved him.He asked him 3 times.The Greek confirms this yet some Bibles omit the second and third time Jesus asked.There is a single change of wording in the second time.His reply to Peter is “feed my sheep,feed my lambs,feed my sheep.
This is clearly the same message as a lamb is a young sheep and so some translators have left out the repeats.
God never wastes words.God wastes nothing.Every single thing in creation has its placed and nothing goes to waste including his words.
I understand why God sometimes says things 3 times.It’s very common throughout the Bible.Sometimes God has repeated himself just the once in Scripture.I know why that is as well.The third is yet to come.
If you have different understanding then by all means share it but I will not respond to hostility from you.
The big challenge for the Church is “clarity” there is much being spoken that is unclear and is causing confusion. We have Churches running after every wind of Doctrine.. this is the main focus no that is the main focus… one month this and the next month that. Instead we should get back to clearly exponding the word of God. God does have priorities, first is to Love Him becoming more like Him this will be revealed in the fruit of our lives (huge challenge :).. secondly is loving others as ourselves which includes the focus on the Great Commission, which is the main thing that the Church should be about as an outward activity.. So know God and make Him known.. is a reasonable summary and one that helps to bring clarity to the life of a Christian..
… should I say one of the big challenges is “Clarity” just to make myself clear ;)
Does loving others come second to loving God?
The commandments say “Alike to this”.
Love is just a word until it is manifest.We manifest our love to God by loving our fellow man. How does God measure our love for him?By seeing the measure of how we love our fellow man.
Love is not just a feeling.Feelings are of no value to God.
Love is a thing in action.
Derek wrote:
We manifest our love to God by loving our fellow man. How does God measure our love for him? By seeing the measure of how we love our fellow man.
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So true Derek, and well put! Since God is invisible and on His lofty throne, instead of trying to reach Him through our fancy ideas and prayers with many words, a tangible way we can prove our love for Him is by simply obeying his command to love others in a tangible way.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
The bible is truth ,Jesus was the word in flesh God amongst us.Father,Son,and Holy ghost/Spirit are the same today as yesterday and will be tomorrow they dont change,therefore the power remains/continues,we the belivers are with out excuse but bound by a fear of what people may think,they will be so excited that you cared to bother to pray then it is up to God the greatest blockage to healing is unforgiveness,see the lords prayer forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive thoses who tresspass against us.do not limited God to your perseption of him HE IS BIGGER AND BETTER THAN YOU CAN THINK.
Does loving others come second to loving God?
The commandments say “Alike to this”.
Loving others dinfinately comes second to loving God. For several obvious reasons.
First He is God :) and we are to love Him with all our heart mind sould and strength….He is deserving of giving Him our totally heart of adoration affection, He needs to be set apart in our hearts as number one.. Matt 13:10 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
Also I don’t think we can’t truely love people untill we love God, or rather are loved by Him, everything flows out of that relationship… God empowers us to love, he shows us love, He heals us to love others.. Its His love that should be flowing through us..
1 John 4 :7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
He teaches us to love..”Now about brotherly love we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other. 1 Thes 4:9
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
As we Love God or are rather loved by Him the outflowing of this is that people are loved to a higher level. This is revealed right throughout 1 John that if we say we love God and don’t love our fellow man we lie…
In saying all that I am a long way from outliving this.. help me God :(
Wayne you would need to meditate on that verse and receive from the Author of it how it connects to what Derek was saying. The natural mind puts up barriers, this is why He has to break us.
Amen, Derek – our God is perfect in all His ways, deliberate and precise, and love what you said about love as well. Keep on keeping on my brother!
Tim wrote:
Also I don’t think we can truely love people untill we love God, or rather are loved by Him, everything flows out of that relationship… God empowers us to love, he shows us love, He heals us to love others.. Its His love that should be flowing through us..
————————————————————–
Absolutely, Tim!
God IS love. To love without Him as the foundation is just a cheap copy of real love, a copy that often doesn’t stand the test, as we can see in the divorce rates.
There is really not much of value that we could do without Him!
That is why He alone gets the Glory for every good thing we might do.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
We don’t need signs and wonders, we need only to have faith and believe in Yah’s word! what he says ,he will do , he is never changing…
QUOTE FROM ARTICLE:
“Paul was saying, “The Gentiles turned to Christ not because of my preaching alone, but because my words were accompanied by miraculous deeds!”
A great deal of writing precedes me! One thing I would say, however. My wife and I worked on the mission field for 10 years and God was so very, very gracious to work many “signs and wonders” – often when we were least expecting it. The point I want to make though is, one or two of the most profound cases did not result in any conversions! How anyone could be touched by God as we saw and not want to follow Him is beyond understanding, but that’s what happened. John 12:37 (Ampliifed Bible) “Even though He had done so many miracles before them (right before their eyes), yet they still did not trust in Him and failed to believe in Him–”
No, I don’t believe it’s a lack of “signs” etc, that is the problem, but a lack of the conviction of the Holy Spirit. HE is the one who convicts of sin and unless that conviction is there, no work for eternity will be accomplished in the one concerned. Wesley, Finney, Wigglesworh etc. etc., abound with accounts of people falling under the power of God. REALLY falling; and crying out for mercy, sometimes when no one had preached a message. This is not the place to write a book (!) but I must emphasize, I have SEEN signs and wonders do not bring a saving of the soul – and in the end, that is all that matters.
Love you all –
David
Hi David
What scripture do you quote above?
I agree in that respect…I too am not sure whether signs and wonders have disappeared totally either, that’s why I wanted people to ‘prove’ to me that they actually do happen. Just give me a bit of evidence and I’ll be happy. I hear of so many subjective so called healings ie headaches, and minor healings like ‘cracks in bones suddenly not being there on the x-ray’ and I just think that these could either be a result of the power of positive thinking, suggestion, or just a case of the headache ‘going away’ or the bone ‘hardening’ as they would naturally do, and yet these are called ‘miracles’ and ‘healings’ in the name of God. But are they? Where are the convincing healings? Why are the convincing healings only in 3rd world countries?
I have heard convincing messages that say that Jesus healed people to show us that He had dominion over the power of the physical world and He delivered demons to show He had dominion over the spiritual world. And He gave the Apostles this authority too so the church would take note and take root and grow, but that these faded out…and look at the last books of the New Testament to be written where Paul is sick and is not being healed and healings werent mentioned anymore. This all makes sense to me. The NT says countless times that our job now is to ‘go into all the world and preach the Good News and make disciples.’ The word is our authority, what we line up our lives with, feed on, live by, know God by, stand firm on etc etc Once that came then the signs and wonders ceased. Where is there any sign of them until the last century I ask you?
I’m just throwing this out there and pondering on it all, havent made up my mind yet? Like I said before, God can perform a miracle at any time, I realise this, but the question is, why would He do this….is it so that the person seeing it would believe in Him? What would they believe about Him though if we did not open our mouths and tell about Jesus and what He did….they would just believe God did amazing miracles, but this is not enough….people could also say this about Magicians! The gospel in my eyes, is all we need. Even if there were signs and wonders, there is the need for the gospel to be told alongside them, so why not just preach the gospel? Thats what makes me agree that the word is the most important thing we have, not signs and wonders. The word brings truth and understanding, and leads to repentance. Anyway that’s enough rambling, thanks for your examples of healings anyway.
David wrote:
No, I don’t believe it’s a lack of “signs” etc, that is the problem, but a lack of the conviction of the Holy Spirit. HE is the one who convicts of sin and unless that conviction is there, no work for eternity will be accomplished in the one concerned. I have SEEN signs and wonders do not bring a saving of the soul – and in the end, that is all that matters.
————————————————————————
Yes, David. Heaven IS our home! Therefore, what really matters is the saving of souls. You can have your body healed today and you’re still going to die in the end.
As King David said: “I am a stranger in the earth.”
As far as the lack of conviction by His Spirit…
I mentioned in an earlier post about checking the words chosen/chose/choose in the Bible. Seems as though God is indeed sovereign to call or choose as He wishes. We just can’t figure Him out, He IS God!
I do however believe that signs and wonders will only come when a solid foundation was established FIRST. This foundation revolves around love, because love is the foundation for EVERYTHING!
God (the Foundation for everything) IS love, and it was out of love that He created us.
Love God and love others, are the greatest commandments for a reason! I talked with a Christian abuse counsellor. The statistics she gave me on how many professing Christian men abuse their wives, not just physically but mainly psychological abuse, and how many Christian parents neglect their children, and how many churchgoers incl. pastors commit adultery by viewing internet porn…, and then, of course, there is the divorce rate among Christian couples.
What can we expect when we have such a mess in the church where obviously only few really believe and follow God’s Word, and where few have a healthy fear of the Lord?
God has been reduced to an eternal vending machine where we throw in a quick prayer and out comes the blessing. Heal me Lord, then…THEN will I follow You and do what You ask me to. Yeah right! (NO YOU WONT! Instead, you put your blessing into your pocket and, now in good health, work even harder on trying to create your heaven here on earth.)
Only God can see a persons heart!
We must preach the Gospel of Jesus, since eternity in Heaven is what really matters! Me must preach and teach repentance and the importance of making conscious, right choices. We are not slaves under our old sinful, flesh nature.
We must really understand who He is, and who we are as Christians. We must teach and preach that the Christian walk must be based on His Word, which we must decide to pursue. We are NOT robots, we have a choice! “Choose you this day whom you will serve!” (Josh)
We must teach and preach that this is not a walk in the park, instead, we are in a battle! People have been brainwashed to think that because they are Christians now life is going to be easy when instead, the battle has just begun because now they have become a prime enemy and target of the devil.
(Satan has come to make war with those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Re.12; Ez.28)
The FULL Gospel will always convict people to repent, showing them how utterly and hopelessly lost they are, desperately in need of a Saviour.
The sugar coated gospel, which is a false gospel, will never tell people who they REALLY are without God, instead it always tells people about God’s great love for us.
Let’s proclaim, boldly, the one, true Gospel of Jesus. The only Gospel that has the power to save.
God will then take care of the rest as He sees fit, perhaps even performing signs and wonders.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Shazza
All you will have is the testimony of others.
The gifts of the spirit are given to enable the saint to do the work they are given. The gifts are tools to be used in the service of the kingdom of God. Miracles do happen often but only under the correct circumstances.
I have seen cars run without gas
Bones healed
Riots stopped dead in their tracks
Small wars averted
provisions of supply that would astound you
Visions given to the broken
Bubbles of heat surround the homeless in winter
The dead raised
The list just goes on but I have also seen great deceptions, persecutions, hardships and griefs.
You need to keep in mind that Gods power is given to those that need it when they need it for the right reasons. If you just go looking for the miracles for the sake of the miracles all you will find is Satans alternative to bait his traps.
Tim,
Firstly and most importantly we do not have to seek God’s love or wait for a time when God loves us.We do not even have to be saved for God to love us.
God loves us all,everyone,God loves the whole world.God does not love as we do,choosing who to love and who to love the most.
Then there is the matter of the commandments.You seem to understand the need to love God with all we have,our minds our souls,our bodies yet have the love for our fellow man as something less than this or something we find after this.
God tells us how we should love him and then says ALIKE to this.
He is telling us that we must love our fellow man in the very same way that we must love God,with all our mind,all our soul and all our body.
This means you and I must put the same effort into loving each other as we do in loving our Father.
We must find the perfect love for Him and at the same time have perfect love for ALL mankind as he does.
Apostle Paul writes to you and me about perfect love,being made perfect in love.
We must be perfect in love,perfect love for our father and perfect love for our fellow man.ALL our fellow men.
This was Christ’s message.Jesus brought it to us and we call it the gospel.
If we have less than the whole true gospel we have a false gospel.
Paul tells us about Faith,hope,and Love and say’s clearly that they are not equal.The greatest of these is LOVE.
Why not Faith?.So much is written about the mighty power of Faith,
yet Paul singles out Love as the greatest.
Because without perfect Love for God AND our fellow man faith is selfish,the benefits we seek are for ourselves.We are to be instruments of God’s love in the world.We are to be God’s witnesses.This is how we witness for God,how we walk not just what we say.
If we are to be given God’s Spirit gifts we must find perfect love.Faith comes first but perfect love must follow it if we are to be receive gifts by God.
Thank you Derek for this washing, washing, washing of the water of the Word! This is just blessing me greatly. Everything else hangs on love, all the other commandments HANG on love. Love is the peg in the wall which holds everything else up. God IS love.
And this agape love is not something we can pretend or manufacture ourselves, it’s something He must work in us as we follow and carry our cross. Until we are perfected in love we really are walking in religion to one degree or another. And Love is the source of Life, if there is no love there is no life. I’m going to pray and ask the Father to perfect His holy remnant in love, this is what spiritual maturity is all about, not knowledge!
Full Gospel…? I love our dear brother David Wilkerson, but I think he missed it this time.
Jesus IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and He Alone has the power to save a soul into eternity!
Healing, signs and wonders? What good does it do me to go to hell in a healthy body?
When Jesus started His ministry here on earth, He was forced to be a “showoff”, performing miracles, because no one would otherwise have listened to Him. He was just Joseph’s (the carpenter’s) son. Not only was there just as much unbelief as there is today, but the Jews were also waiting for a very different Messiah; a Messiah that would come in great splendour out of the clouds with an army of angels, freeing them from Roman oppression.
The disciples were ordinary men and known as such. (Hey, I know this guy. He is just a fisherman who abandoned his dad during fishing season when his dad wanted him to take over the business. Hmmm…) In Paul’s case, having a past reputation of killing Christians, he was faced with a great deal of suspicion.
For the early church to get a good head-start, the Apostles had to be extremely convincing. Miracles and healings served as a great tool to show that the power of God was indeed with them.
Today we are blessed to have the Holy Spirit and His recorded, written Word. Thank God!
Of course, when God sees fit He still heals people today. God has certainly not changed in His ability to perform miracles!
But, O the praises and trust expressed by someone INSPITE of pain and suffering.
Though You slay me I will still praise You, NOT because I FEEL great, but because You ARE great and worthy of all praise! (see Job)
There is a quality in a hurting person’s praises that is extraordinary and goes beyond the regular, the expected. Such praise causes the deepest pain to the devil!
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Mum,
You have it all,you have hit the nail on the head,so as to speak.
You place love above Knowledge.
God tells us about knowledge and how to have it.He says,”The fear of God is the BEGINNING of knowledge.
Notice that these words tell us nothing about the END of knowledge.God is speaking here about the beginning of knowledge.
So what about the end,how do we get to the end of knowledge.
Paul.Apostle Paul,tells us very clearly.
“Love is not made perfect in fear,there is no fear in love,perfect love drives out fear”,
Here we have truth,here we have fear overcome by LOVE.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I have received hostility for suggesting that we must grow to not fear God.The beginning of knowledge is dependant on fear because when we do not know God we do not know how to love like God.
If we help the Holy Spirit to do his work and stop grieving him then we find the love that God speaks of,a love beyond natural man’s ability to comprehend.
I did not know what real love was until I allowed the Holy Spirit to show me,to teach me.
Many will not presently understand but I do not fear God.I feared him greatly for a very long time but I no longer fear him.I have found my Father,I have found his son.I have found my friend Jesus Christ.
We are not meant to fear God permanently.Fear is a stepping stone to knowing Him.
I like what youre saying ‘Watchman’ and agree with a lot of what you’ve said. And this bit of yours ‘Traveler’…”You need to keep in mind that Gods power is given to those that need it when they need it for the right reasons. If you just go looking for the miracles for the sake of the miracles all you will find is Satans alternative to bait his traps.” And I think there are a lot of pseudo-miracles/healings going on out there.
Yeh ‘Watchman’ I think you’ve picked up on a huge issue about our lives needing to match up to our faith because we will show our faith by our actions the bible says clearly. That’s where I think if our lives arent matching up its because we are not reading His word or in other words ‘reading the mind of God’ and not meditating on it (like David says he did) so that we can examine our own minds/hearts/thoughts to make sure they’re lining up with Gods ….with the end result in being a love for God and mankind…also resulting in a desire to evangelise and see others saved. It should all flow like this and Im pretty sure this is the way God wants it too. We should have such a hatred of sin, of offending God, that we stay away, or if we do sin, which we do unfortunately, we repent of it and say sorry and try again with His grace covering us thankfully.
My conclusion is that we faithfully tell people the gospel and if they are soft hearted and God is drawing them, then they will receive that seed and it will grow and I dont personally think we need signs and wonders, but if God wills things like that then that’s all good, all glory to Him. But like you say, its not that we seek them for the sake of them. We offer to pray for them if theyre sick because we should want God to heal them because we care (love is so vital) but sharing the gospel needs to be the priority as far as Im concerned. Thanks for your input its very interesting to mull over.
Watchman,
“When God sees fit he still heals people today”.
So God is choosy as to who he heals and who he does not heal?
So God prefers some of us to others.Loves some of us more than others?
God makes no choices about who is healed.WE DO.Its all down to us.The Holy Spirit is being poured out on the whole world as we write and breath.
Healing comes automatically,it’s designed to,we have to fit two criteria only.
We MUST have the Holy Spirit and we MUST have Jesus Christ,we merely have to touch his robe.
I have been healed.God did not look down from high and decide to heal me one day.He sent the Holy Spirit into the world,I received it and I was healed.
Did Jesus go about choosing who to heal?He went from place to place with the power to heal all about him.Those that were healed were healed by faith.THEIR OWN FAITH.
DEREK: Mark 1:40 says….A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, “If you are willing, you can make me clean.” God has to be ‘willing’ to heal you…you have to have faith that He can whether He does or does not…thats the way I see it! Where is your scripture to back up what you just said. Like someone just said above that in the case of Job, whether things go the way you’d like them to or not…yet we will still trust Him. Your thoughts (and scriptures)
Yer I agree with Shazza. Derek you need to back your thoughts with Scripture..
Derek wrote:
So God is choosy as to who he heals and who he does not heal?
So God prefers some of us to others.Loves some of us more than others?
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No Derek, God is not choosy, He is SOVEREIGN!
Big difference here.
Could it be that the greater miracle is not to be healed but to praise Him in the strength of the Holy Spirit IN SPITE of my pain?
Just think of the thousands of believers who are tortured for their faith every year. How can they do it? Is their situation a sign that God does not love them? Or is He exceedingly glorified when the devil inflicts a person and that person joins Job by saying , ” I will still praise You Jesus”?
I know that I will be healed from these terrible migraine headaches. If not in this life then in the next life, the real life that is yet to come!
Here is the (perhaps hard to swallow) deal:
The world, joint by many Christians, says: “Seeing is believing.” They always want a sign, some kind of evidence that God is real, that He exists, and that He is powerful. “Give us a sign and then we believe.” And for so many Christians they want to know, confirmed by a sign, that He really loves them. His Word is just not enough. (Again, talk to those who are persecuted. Should they perhaps think that God is choosy, or that He doesn’t love them?)
In contrast to the “seeing is believing” idea, which even Thomas the disciple shared, Jesus said: “Blessed are those who do not see and yet they believe.”
In other words, it’s the immature, earthly minded baby Christians who struggle so much with un-belief that they always want a “sign”. Those Christians (especially the martyrs and persecuted ones) who are mature in their walk with Him, have truly crossed over in their hearts from this life, which will pass away anyway, into the great hope of Heaven and eternal freedom from any form of misery that they are able (empowered by His Spirit), to go through incredible pain and suffering.
They simply trust His Word.
No, God is not choosy. He is sovereign, and He knows who will be able to glorify Him in spite of pain and suffering, and who is in need of a sign so they will believe.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Shazza,
You quote a healing miracle and then challenge me to ‘back up’ my understanding with Scripture yet you have not read and understand what I have already written.
Jesus was not even aware that the woman who touched his robe had even done so.he knew not that this woman was with him in the crowd never mind the fact that she needed healing.
He looked around to see who had taken his essence from him as he felt it leave him.I have quoted this matter previously yet I get told that I need to back up my understanding.
Can I suggest that you read and consider what everyone writes or says before making personal challenges.It’s what Jesus did and I believe he expects us to follow him.
Some were healed because he was asked to heal them but it is a mistake to assume that this is necessary.I seem to remember that there was a lame man by a pool who Jesus just approached and healed without being asked.
Sometimes it was Jesus who asked the question.He said “Do you believe that I can heal you”.If the answer came back “yes” then the healing happened.
Maybe you have been taught a rigid understanding about this,whatever the case please stop being so challenging,it comes across as hostility.If you have a different understanding then go ahead and share it.
Healing comes by way of FAITH.We can ask,of course we can but NO FAITH,NO HEALING.
You know this article thread is not all about me.When I am replied to personally I feel obliged to answer personally.I don’t think this is giving others a fair crack of the whip,so to speak.please post your comments and post different understanding as you will.I personally will always read others posts as I wish to learn and grow in Christ.
As and when I feel the need I will post mine.I will not address posts personally as this article is not a forum.
For the sake of being polite I will just reply to Watchman.
You confuse infirmity with persecution/torture.
Infirmity is due to sin in the infirm,blindness,deafness,lameness.
Persecution is due to sin in the persecutor.
When persecuted we require no deliverance from sin.Healing does not apply.
When Mary was told of her becoming with child, her words were be it unto me according to Your word.
When Yeshua healed on one occasion He said be it unto you according to your faith.
The curse does not come without a cause.
If you take the “s” out of curse you have the cure.
I don’t think I have to say what the “s” stands for.
I apologize Derek, I did not mean to come across as hostile at all, perhaps that is the down side of the written word without any body language to soften things. I will have a bit of a study of those biblical situations you’ve mentioned about faith and post my comments as I’m always open to being corrected and I too want to learn more about God and His ways. I do agree with ‘Watchman’ in that God is sovereign and despite what we do or don’t do He still will do what He has ordained to do because He is fair and just and we can trust Him with whatever happens as it being the best for us. And as for the migraines well, Im a nurse and I’ll look into what medications are best for them on our ward for you if you like.
where does Faith come from?
Derek, you obviously did not understand my last post. Your assumption that, as you said, “Infirmity is due to sin in the infirm,blindness,deafness,lameness”, is the old, hurtful accusation that Job’s friends threw at him. (C’mon, Job, admit it; there is sin in your life otherwise you would not be sick.)
And what’s the difference, as far as from the sufferers point, between someone sick with cancer and hurting, or someone hurting though torture? If we assume that, if God is pleased with us (i.e. no sin), and if we have enough faith, He then keeps bad stuff like pain away from us, then He would certainly not allow a good, sinless Christian to have to go through the pain of torture, right?
I know some of the most wonderful loving, kind and TRUE praying, longtime Christians who live with pain. Did you know that, although Smith Wigglesworth was used by God to heal many sick people, he struggled with major back pain? GO FIGURE! Perhaps God is sovereign after all, and there is no easy formula! (Just ask Job when you get to Heaven, he knows all about that!)
Here is something to ponder: Whenever God made a promise in His Word, He did not give us a specific time when the promise would be fulfilled! Of course, we in our fast-food society want the answer NOW.
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Great question, Tim, “where does our Christian faith come from to begin with?”
Can we drum it up? Would it perhaps make us proud if we could? (Look what I did, I walked around these walls of Jericho and they came tumbling down.) People in the “word-of-faith, name-it-claim-it” camp, have died drumming up faith instead of trusting that God can use medical doctors.
According to Scripture, Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith! (Heb 12:2)
Biblical faith will always have its roots in God. Therefore He alone gets ALL the glory for whatever we do by faith!
Jesus’ example of the mustard seed is much like the OT law. The law was given to show us how corrupted we really are, unable, in our own strength to keep it.
Can we have faith like a mustard seed in our own strength?
Jesus basically was saying: “If you would only have the tiniest faith FROM ME, the Author of the kind of faith you need, then you could move mountains.”
When God clearly tells you that you don’t need to see a doctor, then you better believe Him, provided you clearly know the difference between God’s voice and the devil’s imitation of God’s voice. But, don’t ever follow your own voice, or the voice of someone who, like Job’s “friends” gives you bad counsel.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Hi all. Faith, love, Gospel, fear. TIm, great question. My question to listeners – Have you ever felt faith rise up in you? Yeah, you all know the result. Also, what about the man who said, Lord, I believe, but help my unbelief – yes, we need faith, but does it come from God, or from us? Yes He says, to each one, a measure of faith has been given.
It’s really interesting. The Lord has answered my previous one time prayers of faith. Jesus was heard because of his godly fear, Heb 5:7 (deep reverance for God). Yet, I do persist in prayer for the things I wish to see transpire – like, my children to grow in the grace and the knowledge of Christ. Or is that actually prevailing prayer?). Could it be that that faith rising up is actually the result of prevailing prayer, or perhaps also the result of meditating on the word – faith comes by hearing of the word. Paul prayed that the Ephesians be “strengthened with “might” (dunamis) through His Spirit in our inner man, that Christ may dwell in our hearts through faith, that we being rooted and grounded in LOVE may be able to comprehend … ” I believe that many Christians are not being strengthened with might, that their faith may develop. Anyhow, these are my brief reflections on faith, prayer – one thing I am certain of – faith does come by hearing/meditating on the word. I am sure there are other factors affecting faith, such as strongholds of unbelief that must be torn down and taken captive in obedience to Christ (2 Cor 10:3-5).
Fear of God. The fear of the Lord is the hatred of sin (Prov 8:13). The fear of the Lord is to stand in awe of Him. “My covenant with him was a covenant of life and peace, that he might fear me, and he feared me, he stood in awee of my name (Malachi 2:5 – I think). “Let all the earth fear the LORD; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.” (Ps 33:8, 9). You who fear the Lord, praise Him (Ps 22). The fear of the Lord will give us a profound respect for hoiliness and a deep understanding that God is all-sufficient. Intimate friendship with God comes through the fear of the Lord, which is different to a fleshly spirit of fear, which we are told God has not given us (2 Tim 1:7). We obey God for who He is and for what He says. If we love Him we will obey Him. Last year I delivered a message on fear of the Lord and holiness. People asked for more teaching, yet I was so challenged on the topic of holiness, it literally bought me to my knees. Yet, in 20 years, never have I heard a sermon on the fear of the Lord.
Shazza – I agree with you on the Gospel. I wonder how many true believers in Christ will actually say they got saved through the monistry of signs and wonders? Perhaps many. Yet, there will always be those who have “not seen”and yet believe.
Oh, quickly, I want to share this. I have been healed 6 different ways of 6 different things. I never remember to tell people this. Here is one way I was healed: I experienced a great burning sensationbelow my navel when I tried to sprint. It was terribly unpleasant. THe doctor said this tear will take one year to heal. I was disappointed. A few weeks later, the Holy spirit reminder me in the shower that the reason for the tear was the piggy back race during the Church picnic. I carried a large solid man on my back after he had offered to carry me. Actually, I was showing off how strong I was. THe Lord convicted me. I repented of my pride with tears. The Lord instantly healed me. God loved me that much to show me my sin so I could repent and be cleansed (1 John 1:9). Perhaps God desires a deeper work that just instant healing, we just need to listen and respond. God bless you all.
Derek, just wanted to say that this whole topic of healing and faith is certainly one of the toughest in my opinion. I think I know where you are coming from. There seems to be such a tension between what we should and can do, and then, on the other hand, Jesus saying that, without Him, we can do NOTHING.
Jordan S. wrote:
He says, to each one, a measure of faith has been given.
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Yes, we all have some level of faith. However, I do believe there are different levels.
I would say that, to build the ark, or to trust that the walls of Jericho will actually crumble just by walking around them, takes an extra measure of His faith imparted.
I love your little testimony about how He healed you after speaking to you about an issue that you had to deal with.
Yes, Lord, I’m listening. Is there anything…,
Thanks, Shazza, I’ve tried a few things over the years re. migraines. What’s your take on beta-blockers? And do you know anything about the toxicity (liver, kidneys) of Imitrex?
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Dear all, signs and wonders is not the ultimate purpose nor is it the only means for evangelism, rather signs and wonders is the outcome of obedience to the call of God.
Mary and Joseph, the earthly parents of our Lord Yashua Ha Mashiach did not do any signs or wonders but they were faithful to their calling and remained obedient to Yahweh inspite of all the adversity, ridicule and shame they went through. And the outcome of their obedience paved the way for Yashua to come into this world to fulfill His commission. Do you think God commended Mary and Joseph for their obedience? Can you imagine the mark they left on humanity for eternity by cooperating with Yahweh to bring Messiah into this world? Likewise, each and everyone, who is called of God, when they fulfill their role, commissioned by God, however insignificant it may seem to be, will receive the same reward as all the other labourers in the body of Christ. Dwell on the parable of ‘the workers in the vineyard’ as mentioned in Matthew 20:1-16.
Dear all, only eternity will reveal the impact you had as a witness of God, because of your obedience to God. Those of us who remain faithful in our ‘call’ will be commended in these words, “Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord”. – Matthew 25:23 We need to remember that we are called to be witnesses to God’s grace and His work in our life and the power of the blood of Yashua, wherever we are placed. And we are witnesses not only to the people of this world, but to the principalities and powers in high places too. We witness by being mere vessels carrying the presence of Yashua Ha Mashiach. It is He who works in us and through us when we submit to His Lordship. Signs and miracles will follow, if we become vessels of God than being lords of our life. Remember Stephen, (Acts 6 and 7) who was chosen to ‘serve tables’, and yet what powerful testimony he had, that Yashua Himself stood up to receive him’. Let us pray that God helps us to remain faithful in our respective ‘call’.
Cheerful co-operation with Jahweh, in Yashua and thru the Holy Spirit unleashes infinite power and might. I know whereof I speak. It’s not only fun to witness it , it is fun to be a part of it. Be Bold enough to Enter into the joy of the Lord – if you have the desire. ( the desire is a gift of God) . But who ‘really’ wants to be a witness to Infinite Power and Might?—- Jahweh’s true chidren.
Concern yourself with the fruit, before you concern yourself with the gifts.
Joy is a fruit.
There have been 2 arks,Noah’s and Moses’s.The second was a development of the first.They both were used to save God’s chosen people.The arks were used by men to cross water.Noah’s the flood and Moses’s the river Jordan.Men built these arks on God’s instructions and God’s design.
The third,final,and perfect ark is yet to come.It must be built for the very last days so that God’s chosen will be saved from the coming storm.The end time temple design is described in prophecy right down to how it should be decorated.
The ark,the temple,the body of Christ are all the very same thing.
Don’t look for a literal boat,a literal temple, a building or vessel.These were mere shadows of the real thing to come.They are signposts to us pointing us to the way ahead,the way we should go.
We have work to do.God’s work,not our own.Jesus worked for God and so must his church.We must build an ark,a temple.
Watchman: yeh youre right, benzos, Metoprolol is used for prevention of migraine headaches…relaxing the sympathetic nervous system and all that. Unfortunately only something you can get from the doc. I will ask around and see what some of the more experienced nurses have found to be effective that you can hopefully buy from the Chemist.
Anyway back to the discussion on faith: I agree, faith is given by God and perhaps the instance with the woman with the issue of blood is teaching us that there is a part that we play and God is pleased as we reach out to Him in desperation like this woman did. And also it comes back to the sovereignty of God again, as God the Father knew she would do this and therefore granted and ordained this healing anyway…He knew about it, whereas Jesus was limited in His ability to know everything being in human form. So I still believe that had the Father not willed her to be healed even with whatever faith she could drum up naturally and desperation and persistance she could produce, she would not have been healed. We don’t control God end of story. Look at the hardships Paul went through as a Christian and he was never healed of his ‘thorn in the flesh.’
God wants us to persist in prayer as He reveals to us in the parable of the persistant widow and the judge, but ultimately He makes the choice whether to say yay or nay, just like as a parent does or should do, when a child persistantly asks. Or are we a spoilt child and think the more we jump up and down and insist on our way (getting our healing) and that it is our right, then the more we will be able to twist our parents arm? Is this maturity?
Jesus said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation Mark 16:15
Matt 28: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Jesus direct command to the Church reveals what our outward focus should be. We need to evangelise the world through the proclaimation of the Gospel,that is to be the sower that goes and sows the seed of the Gospel. As we go and evangelise we will make disciples. Through the whole Gospel being preach Jesus will call people to a committed relationship to him and through a true conversion a person becomes a disciple and begins a committed obediant journey. Jesus said “follow me and I will make you fishers of men”. As we follow Christ one of the natural outworkings of being a true disciple is we will want to be actively be involved in evangelising (fishers of men) and making disciples and so we reproduce after our own kind.. The Gospel is a distinct message 1 Cor 15:, its is verbalised, it communicates about sin, the cross, ressurection, grace and also the cost…. Jesus if you want to follow me you must deny yourself take up your cross and follow me daily..
Research shows that only 2% of the Church in the West regularly proclaim the gospel. Yet, in the early church, 100% of believers were actively engaged in evangelism.
Come on Church lets be focussed on and obedient to the great commission… so much of what we say and do is on the periphial..
Watchman: We dont have Imitrex that I know of in New Zealand. Are u taking other drugs on top of Imitrex, these can sometimes result in it not being broken down as quickly as it should by the liver and result in toxicity? Best to read up about it if you can.
In the performance of my job, far from where I now reside,and well over 2 decades ago, I had been arrested doing my job and fulfilling the great commission. I was mocked , laughed at , beaten beyond recognition, and thrown into a cement isolation cell. As days went by I was severely beaten daily. As the days turned into weeks the torture started. The horror of the reality of what some mortals are capable of doing to another was unfathomable to me. My only hope and comfort was that I knew ( not believed), Our Father was there with me as a witness and sustainer. With the crushing of my testicle and burning of my rectum I entered a form of insanity where when left alone lying on the floor of my cell, I would petition Our Father to Please beam me up now, To turn me into one of the cockroaches that freely came and went as they pleased and to please to just let me expire and die right there and then. I begged him for these things, these miracles which I so desperatly needed. The day I was to be murdered, Two of the guards involved with my ‘treatment’ helped me to escape from a prison that was inescapable , begging for my forgiveness, risking thier lifes and the lives of thier families. Today, I’m kind of happy that Our Father didn’t give me the miracles that I thought I needed and couldn’t go on without. It’s also relatively easy to awaken with a song in my heart and filled with gratitude without even trying. Go Figure!!
God wills that we ALL be healed just as God wills that we all be saved.
Healing is NOT dependant on whether God wills it for you or me or another.
God is not manipulative,he does not have preferences.God loves the whole world,all of us,equally.God does not choose who will and will not be healed,Jesus didn’t either.
If we have FAITH that we we will be healed then we are healed.God is pouring out his Spirit onto the whole world right now as I write.Healing is available to all mankind.
God never says Neh or Yeh to healing.WE DO when we don’t have faith.
As for the thorn in the flesh.This was not a literal thorn in the physical flesh.Paul’s nature caused him to be prone to pride and arrogance.God kept them from him for a while by holding back perfection from him.Paul was left with a temptation to sin that God did not remove.Paul called it his thorn in his flesh,”A messenger from Satan”.Satan’s messengers are temptations.
John,or whatever your name is,
I have to tell you that I am doubtful about you.If your testimony is true then please forgive me but you do yourself no favours by calling yourself John the baptist the 2nd.
D—-You are forgiven.
Well thank you,a true Christian virtue.
Please.Tell me,why do you think you are John the Baptist returned?
How do you know this to be true?
Shazza wrote:
… there is a part that we play and God is pleased as we reach out to Him in desperation like this woman did. And also it comes back to the sovereignty of God again, as God the Father knew she would do this and therefore granted and ordained this healing anyway…He knew about it, whereas Jesus was limited in His ability to know everything being in human form. So I still believe that had the Father not willed her to be healed even with whatever faith she could drum up naturally and desperation and persistance she could produce, she would not have been healed.
We don’t control God end of story.
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Thanks, Shazza. Your last post was right on!
As far as the migraines…, I don’t take Imitrex but someone told me about it. All I take is mainly Ibuprofen (Advil) and sometimes acetaminophen (Tylenol).
Thanks anyway for trying to help.
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Derek, my head is pounding now since 3 days, and it REALLY hurts!
Please tell me how and where I can get that faith you are referring to.
I have examined my heart, I have repented for any unknown sin there might be in my life. I have pleaded with God. He and neither anyone I know, my wife, my family, my co-workers, my church friends, has told me that there is sin in my life.
So please tell me how and where to get that faith.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
D– I do not think I am John the Baptist returned. Some questions may be answered – ‘Google” “Pike County Courier -Baptist11 on river delaware. or don’t.
Derek said “God loves the whole world,all of us,equally.God does not choose who will and will not be healed,Jesus didn’t either”
Derek could you please share where you get these beliefs from? What are your scriptural backing for them? Would really be interested in these comments are derived from the Bible or just reflections of your own mussings..
Derek: You stated “God does not choose who will and will not be healed,Jesus didn’t either.”
I’m sorry but how can you possibly make a statement like that? So then by whose power is the person healed? Is it not Gods? If it is God’s power then He must be wanting that person to be healed must He not? Sounds like you are just operating from the power of positive thinking to me?
When I became a christian, a year and a half later we had an intellectually handicapped daughter and we took her to every prayer meeting in town for 4 years or more and prayed over her just the kind of positive faith healing declarations that it sounds like you would be into and Im sorry to say she is still the same as she was back then. I learnt a lot through this though and the point I am trying to make is that if God had healed Rachel like I wanted I would never know Him and His faithfulness the way I do now, and sometimes what we think is best …. simply is not. We need to leave the decision to heal or not heal up to the Healer…because He knows best. He knows the beginning from the end, the master plan. If you go around claiming a person is healed when they are not you just make a mockery of us christians.
My neighbour noticed this about a guy she worked with who we also know and he had claimed two people at work would be healed or ‘are healed.’ But they both turned out not to be healed at all and died…she just thought the guy was a looney tune!
Mario, I have just spent 15 minutes typing a reply to you and it will not post.I am testing with this short post.
Mario,
Before Jesus ascended to the Father he spoke to his disciples.As disciples we must pay particular attention to what Jesus says privately to us.Scripture records all his private talks with us.
One thing he says is,”I give you my peace,my peace I give to you”.
This peace is beyond any peace that man can understand.Once experienced you will know and understand.
You do not have the peace of Jesus Christ,your migraine would never be possible with this peace.This does not mean that you are not his disciple.It means that you do not have the mind of Christ yet.
Your mind is being renewed,your old way of thinking still exists.You have an inner battle.The inner battle can be ferocious.It will test your resolve for Christ.
God calls it his furnace of refinement/purification.Furnaces are very,very hot my friend,they burn and cause pain.You can get out any time you choose.Stay in Mario.I got out several times only to have to be put back in again.
Tim,
“GOD SO LOVED ‘THE WHOLE WORLD’ THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON…….”.
Now at the risk of sounding intolerant,Where do you think I got this from?
Derek,
Would you mind describing the circumstances of your furnace incidents?
We need a ministry that is holy. Without a ministry that is holy you are very unlikely to see holy signs and wonders anyway.
James 5:15 says “And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.” So we could definitely say that it is God’s will sometimes to heal the sick but its also not always God’s will, because death is the natural result of sin (Romans 6:23). If it were God’s will to heal everyone then no one would ever die and everyone would be healed and I wouldnt have a job either! It’s just not right to say faith always results in healing, because biblically it doesn’t. Faith resulted in death for Stephen in Acts 7 and death for James in Acts 12. In John 11:4 Jesus said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.” So we can see that some sicknesses are unto death and others are for the glory of God.
God even allowed some to be killed as in the case of Annanius and Saphira! Also Paul and his friend was never healed.
I’ve shared my struggles with Rachel and how I turned to God on the hard days because I knew He would understand with non-christians and some ladies got tears in their eyes. I can honestly say God has been given glory through her sickness. Derek I truly wish that everyone could be healed as it breaks my heart to see some of my lovely patients going through so much pain and suffering. My opinion, which doesnt count for much, is that we simply pray and ask and if it is God’s will it will happen, if it is not, then God must have reasons which are fair and trustworthy.
God is life.
Death is separation from God.
The carnal mind is death and an enemy of God.
Shazza,
Now when did I claim that a person is healed when they are not?
You have put an interpretation on my words that was not meant,that is not there.This is very,very common.We do it with God’s words.We have an understanding about something to do with God and then we read Scripture and look for evidence of that understanding we have.
We will always find evidence to support what we choose to believe.The Bible has been written with this in mind.You believe I meant something different to what I did mean.
I am no stranger to suffering as a parent.One of our sons died at birth,taken by God.I was Christian,born again yet God took my beloved son away.
I cannot speak of your circumstances yet I do know how healing ‘works’.I know and understand how all the Spirit gifts work.This has been revealed to me .This knowledge is there for us all to be shown in Holy Scripture but we need to be shown it.
The Holy Spirit is being poured out over the whole world right now but to receive it we must be fit for purpose.God makes us fit if we sincerely want to be for GOD.
There is no room for SELF in God’s Kingdom.If you want your daughter healed then you must LEAVE her.It’s in Scripture.Jesus says so.If your love for your daughter is greater than your love for God you will not find the faith required for her to be healed.
IT ALL COMES DOWN TO FAITH.
THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
Derek you say to me that: “You have put an interpretation on my words that was not meant,that is not there” but you have done the same to me unfortunately. I do not put my daughter above God in any way, shape or form! And I have plenty of faith that God could heal her, and still hold out hope. I think it is wrong the way you accuse myself and others of not having enough faith. This is condemning and could make some people feel guilty when they shouldnt and I thought we’d already established that this faith comes from God in the first place. I’ve seen enough in pentecostal circles to realise that ‘pride’ is a dangerous thing and very prevalent when it comes to this ‘faith’ stuff, its almost bordering on a ‘works gospel’ instead of a gospel of grace. Its not all dependent on ‘me’ its dependent on ‘Him.’
Thanks Derek :) now we have some point of reference on which to base a dicussion. The point of reference for all truth in the Bible not our own interpretation, which we are all subject too.
I agree with you that Gods general love is towards all human being’s, however i would like to ask you does that mean that God treats everyone equaly in this life and in the life to come? Also does everyone experience Gods love the same? Does everyone have the same capacity to experience and give Gods love.. that is Christian and non Christian alike..
Tina,
It has just happened again.I have written a reply to you but it was lost when I posted it.I will try again.
Tim,
God treats everyone equally by giving us all the same opportunity to avail ourselves of his promises.We all have equal opportunity.What perfect father would offer a good promise to one child and not the other?
You write of ‘God’s general love’.Does he have preferences?Does he have a special love for just some?Would that be what to expect from the perfect Father?
Of course he does not treat everybody equally.When we deserve praise he gives praise,when we deserve gifts he gives gifts,when we deserve discipline and punishment he gives those.Is that not we expect from a loving Father?
Now as for capacity to love.Here’s the truth of it.No-one has the capacity to love others except God.Man only knows how to love himself.
Natural man has only the spirit of man and the spirit of man knows only SELF.
We need God in us to love.The Holy Spirit brings God to us and shows us how to love.Anyone without the Holy Spirit can use the word love all day every day but will still not know the truth of it.
Derek wrote:
THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
——————————————————————
Absolutely, Derek! And how much faith does it take to trust God in times of pain and suffering?
Did Job still trust God when he was inflicted with disease? Did it perhaps take a huge amount of faith to continue believing and trusting God?
Regarding the woman who touched Jesus’ garment…
When Jesus started His ministry, did people instantly go to Him for healing?
Of course NOT!
No one just walks up to a person who starts teaching about God and assumes that this person has miraculous powers to heal. (Common sense is a great tool.)
AFTER Jesus had shown that He has such powers, people came to Him for healing. Their faith was based on a strong foundation, the evidence that He was able to heal.
The woman knew that He was able to heal her and that He was also willing to do it, because she had likely heard or seen with her own eyes the evidence of such power in other people’s healing.
Faith is always based on either evidence, revelation and or His Word, which all comes FROM HIM, instead of being drummed up by a person. That is the very reason why Biblical faith can never be viewed without God in the picture.
He IS the Author and Finisher of our Faith! (I have written about it in a much earlier post.) The faith that allowed Peter to walk on water was based on evidence (Jesus showed Peter how it’s possible) and His Word when He called Peter to step out onto the water. Faith that is not based on God, a combination of His Word (spoken or written), His revelation, and the evidence of His power, is wishful thinking!
I was once healed too. For 2 years I had a pain in my shoulder whenever I stretched my arm. (Injured muscle) At one of my home-group meetings a lady prayed for me. I didn’t feel any different right then, but the next day I suddenly realized that the pain was gone.
As for these migraines, God has given me incredible strength and faith to praise Him despite the pain.
Of course I keep praying, and I know that He can heal me right now! He alone knows why…
(Job, where were you when I created the world?) Can a creation argue with its Creator?
————————————————————————————————
Shazza, I sense such a wonderful peace and a great measure of His grace about you. He has taught you much!
May the Lord bless you and your house with His sweet presence!
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Something to ponder…
The great Smith Wigglesworth was mightily used by God as a healer. Apparently 20 people were even raised from the dead. However, he himself battled with back problems and kidney stones, and he was also unable to cure his daughter’s deafness.
GO FIGURE!
Bottom line…
When we do not understand that He is the One where our faith comes from, we say that faith is something like an OT law that one had to keep in order to find God’s approval, or perhaps a kind of work, something that we can gain by working hard at it.
This then opens the door to pride and jealousy (Pharisees), and a grading system where we look at people on the bases of how much faith they have acquired through their hard effort. (The Pharisees were quite proud of how hard they worked on keeping the law.)
Ask Smith Wigglesworth or the Apostles if they were proud of their faith because they worked so hard to gain it? What would their answer be?
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Yeh I agree…amen to that :)
Mario,
I may be wrong but I suspect you have me as proud,a proud man.
If so then you do not understand me Mario.Pride is an anathema to me.I am no stranger to pride,once a proud man destined to fall from my high place.I was brought down by our Father with a great jolt.I am ever conscious of pride (and arrogance) I am ever conscious that they are SELF which needs to be denied daily.
I seek to follow Jesus Christ who tells me that I MUST deny self to overcome.You do not know my journey Mario,you only know your own.
Pride and Faith oppose each other,they cannot abide together.Even an ounce of pride will destroy faith.
Do not seek to follow Christ– Do it or don’t. Not everyone in the Kingdom has the discernment at this stage to spot time-suckers. A useful tool of the enemy to distract Our Heavenly Father’s children from more effective use of thier time.
Baiting, switching of focus, evasive responses to direct inquiries,denial of obvious indicators of character ,outrageous claims and “deeper” teachings,all in the ‘interests of ” just trying to help You”. Freely mixing of truth and falsehood creating confusion . the ability to create a feeling that ‘you’ could help them, if only you could spend enough time and words engaged with them.Beware timesuckers.They suffer from a perverse soul sickness so deep that only an act of providence can assist them.They are clever. Do not engage them. Only pray.
Have I offended you John by asking why you call yourself John the Baptist the 2nd? I meant no offence.It was a sincere enquiry.
I still await the answer.
Mark8:11-12,
11: And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
12: And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
There are miracles of healing and miraculous signs.These are different things.The signs are always for disciples.He turned water into wine quietly,the wedding guests did not know he had done so.His walk on water was witnessed by disciples,The breaking of such few loaves and fishes was unknown to the multitude.The miraculous catch of fish was experienced by disciples.The list goes on.
Signs are not for this generation.They are for the next generation.
Pharisee’s were not all church leaders,most were merely members but signs are not for Pharisee’s,they have a false gospel.
Mario, when you lay down the title.”Watchman” and any pride that goes with this title you have begun calling yourself, get humble before the Lord and repent. Cry out to God for forgiveness and repent, than shall he heal thee.
Boundin Hisskirt,
I take it that you understand the simple meaning of the word” watchman”. It’s someone who watches.
I am sorry that you feel offended by my use of that address (not title!) and that you interpret this as me being prideful.
I have only recently changed from using my full name (Mario C Alleckna) to using the much shorter “watchman”. (Being a musician, I have posted a number of You Tube video’s with music and text slides as outreach tools where I am using my full name.
I was in a meeting a number of years ago where someone with a prophetic gift prayed for me and then gave me a “Word”. As she kept praying and prophesying she called me a “watchman” because she felt impressed by the Holy Spirit that this was who I am. Again, I am sorry that you obviously feel offended, and I wish we could see each other, which then might show you that I am one who understands that pride is something to fight against in oneself as it is the root-sin going back to the Garden of Eden.
Perhaps you can overlook my use of that address and engage in the actual discussion here.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Derek wrote:I may be wrong but I suspect you have me as proud,a proud man.
———————————————————————————————
I am sorry Derek, I was never intending to give you that impression! I see you as very sincerely in trying to get a handle on that tough subject and in trying to communicate what you understand here.
I was merely pointing out a danger that I see when faith, like the OT law, becomes something that is not a gift from God but rather something we can acquire through working at it.
I was NOT at all referring to you here!
Sorry that you felt this way, but as Shazza mentioned earlier, communication without seeing a person (body language) is a difficult task.
Derek, I appreciate you as my brother in Christ and I thank you for inspiring me to further dig into the subject. There is always more to learn!
Blessings to you and your house!
Mario
Im not offended by names/titles, however just because someone so calls prophesies over you does not make it true. I would make sure with fear and trembling before just basing it upon anothers words. This is what is wrong with much of the false. Someone prays over them or should I say preys* over them and all of a sudden everything changes, sadly.
I am not surprised that Mario is called a watchman.
There are many ways in which this word is applied.
Lord set a watch over my mouth is one.
A watchman watches many things and if I use the above description for Mario, then it fits. He is a watchman over his mouth and thoughts thus giving encouraging words no matter what the circumstance.
Nor should we seek the praises of men. It is Gods validation, not man’s that we should look for. For Its not what you or I think, what matters, no it is what Jesus thinks. I think being called servant is the attitude of all and the heart of His true children should be. Humbleness and humility before the Lord thy GOD!
By the way, we are ALL called to Watch and to be alert!
And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.- <Mark 13:37
Matthew 24:42 "Therefore keep WATCH, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
Mark 13:35 "Therefore keep WATCH because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back–whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.
Romans 13:11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to WAKE UP from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
Thanks for the explanation Mario.I think I was a little too sensitive to your comments.You may have noticed that I am direct and outspoken.Lol.Well I get quite a bit of flack as a result.Some days I don’t handle it as well as I know I should.
BoundinHisskirt,
We are all watchmen or should be.Disciples are appointed as watchmen by our Lord Jesus Christ.Before he ascended he had much to say to his disciples and one of them was to WATCH.
Is Mario claiming to be an Apostle?,a Prophet?I have never suspected it.
I am sorry, I was not thinking that I praised him but only making an observation of reading his posts through the months.
Perhaps I should have said that I like the spirit in which he posts!!
Let us remember, a TRUE WATCHMAN sees what others cannot. They are up in the watchtower, as the people down below cannot see from that point of view, now take that put into a spiritual perspective and that is a true watchman, for they see the approaching enemy coming, while down below you cannot see from high above. Spiritually speaking, it is the Lord that shows them in the Spirit, a discerning of spirits. Not all are gifted the same, one body , differing gifts. We must make sure with fear and with trembling that God has called you or I to that place only in , by, through and of Him. When we read watchman what of the night, He is continually alert even into the night watches. The TRUE WATCHMAN warns the people of danger or of an enemy. Sadly, we see very few of this today.
Derek, please read again, I said neither of what you stated, no mention of apostle or prophet? I believe you, jumped to soon, Slow to speak is truly a GOD THING.
The times are perilous and it does not take a watchman to tell us this as even the secular people have this knowledge.
Seems everywhere one looks they can find danger, war and the like.
BouninHisskirt,
I am sorry you thought that I suggested you were saying Mario had made such a claim.He has not.I was pointing out that his claim would then be suspect as these are specific appointments by God to specific people chosen by God.
We are all empowered to be watchmen.All disciple have the duty to be watchmen.God needs as many watchmen as he can find.
I agree with your point however.In order to watch we must find a high place and we must know exactly what to watch for.We must also be attentive day and night.
It is no good watching from the ground or where there are obstructions to our view and a watchman who knows not what to watch for is not a lot of use to us.The enemy could be at the gate or even in the house and he would not know it.
Watchman need information to be effective,They must understand prophecy,true prophecy to know EXACTLY who the enemy is and what he looks like.A perfect watchman will have a good idea when to expect the enemy too.
That is not to say a watchman must be a prophet.He must have a true understanding of prophecy.A good watchman has a prophet somewhere near to him and he listens to him.A good watchman need eyes to see and ears to hear.
2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.
While you may have the long list of’s. when Jesus calls, His sheep hear His voice and when He divinely calls upon such, He will divinely equip them for whatever He- the LORD so deems. Clay in the Potters hands, for he is the Fashioner of such, concerning His true vessels.
I am neither a servant nor slave of Jesus the Christ. I am his friend and brother. I do not make sure with fear and trembling of my calling. I am assured with joy and thanksgiving that The great I AM goes before me, and has my back and sides protected at all times. This is not to state that there is anything wrong with being a servant or slave of Christ. It’s just that I personally find so much more joy and fullfillment in being his friend than in being his slave.
well than John2, that is a shame. Much of the NT, speaks of His servants and bond-slaves unto Christ. They saw Him as not just their Lord and Savior, but also their Master. They called themselves bond-slaves as well as servants. David had a servants heart, should not we also? The beginning of wisdom is Fear, Fear the Lord thy God.-Prov. You see, fear is just the beginning of wisdom.
therefore, NO WISDOM, NO FEAR. We are called,CALLED to fear the Lord. We read in the written word, Gods holy people bowing low with fear and trembling. Daniel, John, Ezekiel, concerning servitude-servant/bond-slaves in and for Christ and also in Christ.
Who then is a faithful and wise servant?
-Matthew 24:45
The Lord speaks of the faithful and wise steward, here he describes a steward, but speaks of him as a servant.
Our Lord’s coming will be happy to those that shall be found ready, his servants, but very dreadful to those that are not. If a man, professing to be the servant of Christ, be an unbeliever, covetous, ambitious,prideful, or a lover of pleasure, he will be cut off. Those who choose the world for their portion in this life, will have hell for their portion in the other life.
You can be Christ Jesus’s friend, however, to be a friend of His is to have a servants heart and to be a servant to and toward the Lord. and to FEAR HIM. His word changes not, Fear is required and it is lies within and at the very heart of His true servants. When you have/get the holy fear of the Lord, than comes the beginning of wisdom.
I have no shame . I gave it to Christ and never asked for it back. Keep in mind that the Master does not confide in his slaves to the same extent he confides in his friends. Perhaps that is why some servants lack in wisdom and discernment. Christ has told me specifically not to be Afraid and to not fear. So I don’t. May shame be off of you also. May you be obiedient to your Master and not fear. It is a fun and wonder filled way to live. But we do have free will choice. No one has to be unafraid and filled with joy and confidence.
Everything that Paul, Jude, Peter,Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, James, everything written was shown Holy Ghost inspired and you say, He doesnt show His bond”slaves”?
Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an Apostle, set apart to proclaim God’s Good New:
Paul caught up in the third heaven was shown much, yet he still called himself a bond-servant/slave of Jesus Christ.
Look up how many times the many called themselves such in the NT.
1 Corinthians 7:22 For he who was called in the Lord being a bondservant is the Lord’s free man. Likewise he who was called being free is Christ’s bond-servant.
and yet you say the Master, doesnt confide in his bond-servants, slaves?
Even when Jesus said I no longer call you servants but friends, he did not say, you are NO longer servants. They were and they KNEW they were still His servants. Praise be to GOD!
Before the last book of Revelations:
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Jude 1:1
Revelation 1:17 it is the Lord who says to fear not when talking to John, as He is the first and the last.
Then in Revelation 15:4
we have John saying to the Lord, who shall not fear/be in awe of Thee and glorify thy name, for You are Holy….
Perfect love casts out all fear because fear has torment.
These men were friends of Christ and a bondslave to His love.
Bound- Carefully consider words you read speak and write. I did not state he does not confide in his slaves, bondservents. He does not confide in them to the same extent he confides in his friends. I did not say he does’t show his bondslaves things. He doesn’t show them to the same extent as he does his friends. Calm yourself Bound. I did not say that YOU had to be a friend of Christ’s.
I am at peace, thank you, again I do not agree with you and what you have stated in the above post’s. Obvious we do not agree, For one thing I do not want to strive, argue or debate. So will kindly bow out.
Jesus stated about how He viewed His disciples: “Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.” (John 15:15)
He also stated to His disciples what their (our) attitude ought to be: “So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’ ” (Luke 17:10)
Teshuva,
there is a REAL Respectful, Reverent fear and a very real, TRUE Holy fear of the Lord. The Apostate has not this fear of the Lord in which Im speaking of. The fear you speak of I am not referring too.
Bound,
I have been at this cross road in my life.
I was faced with a decision to fear Him or to love Him.
I even said to Him it is difficult to love and fear at the same time and I choose to love You.
I have asked for His love to be perfected in me.
As for a reverential fear or awe, I stand in awe of everything He does.
If my flesh disrespects Him then rest assured He will make it known to me, and correct me, but it has always been with bringing light., and not fear.
If I sow in the flesh it always brings corruption, but in the spirit then it brings peace.
Perhaps I still am not understanding your real definition of fear.
John 15:15 occurred at last supper. Luke 17:10 occurred well before the last supper and he was addressing them as servants as they were at that time. He had yet to call them friends. they were servants. Interesting side note is that furthur on past John 15: 15 Christ made clear that there was much more Christ wanted to tell them but that they were unable to bear it at that time. Chronology is important.
Hi Tusheva,
I would like to share some verses that come to mind, but I would like to give time for more thought and prayer. I will wait until tomorrow before responding.
Its honestly good, to just come away from it all and get refreshed in the Lord.
Bound,
I can respect that.
Prayer is the best way for all things to be resolved.
Matter of fact, I call my prayer time, setting a trap for God so that I might catch His thoughts.
May He refresh you to overflowing.
In John 14:15, Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.’ Luke 17:10 is a command. John 15:15 isn’t. Where in the New Testament does it indicate that chronology changes the importance or value of Christ’s teachings? Where does it indicate that the commandment of Christ in Luke 17:10 was only to be in effect for a few months (to up to maybe a year or so) but not after that?
If the argument of chronology was a valid argument vs. Christ’s perspective and our perspective, then why does the rest of the NTevidence indicate the latter to be true and the former to have no basis?
Why did ALL the apostles and disciples in Acts 4:29 refer to themselves as the servants of Christ?
Why do various apostles call themselves and other believers “servants of Christ” in Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 4:1; 2 Cor. 11:23; Gal. 1:10; Eph. 6:6; Php 1:1; Col. 4:12; 4:7,12; 2 Tim. 2:24; Titus 1:1; James 1:1; 1 Pet. 2:16; 2 Pet. 1:1; Jude 1:1; and Rev. 1:1?
If chronology is a valid argument, then John 15:15 is not valid as the above Scriptures were written well after the events of John.
No, my brother, it is not a matter of chronology, but as I said earlier, it is a matter of Christ’s attitude toward us and what our attitude is to be of ourselves.
In truth, I believe it is both. Christ is not only my brother and my friend, but also my Master and Lord, and as such I am His servant as well as His friend. Is there any Biblical evidence that one mutually excludes the other?
But even if I am a friend of Christ and He of me, that does not negate that my attituded should be one of a servant (or perhaps more accurately, a bond-servant) of Christ.
Do you know the significance of a “bond servant”? According to Exodus 21:2-6, it a relationship based on love and not compulsion. It is witnessed in the woman who anointed Christ and washed His feet with her hair. She loved much because she had been forgiven much.
Additionally, we are told in Philippians 2:5 we are told to have the same attitude as Christ, who in 2:7, “took upon himself the form of a servant . . .” If Christ was a servant and we are to be like Him, then should we also not be “in the form of servant?”
You are welcome to have an attitude of a servant and use any of the Word to justify . rationalize .and o.k. that within yourself .It is O.K. with me also. I however will continue to delight in my friendship with the Christ as he also delights in me. Keep in mind W., that in true friendship, things are done for one another , but not in a servant mentality, but as a pleasure and joy because of the love that exists between those two friends.Perhaps you cannot fathom that kind of friendship because you have never experienced it? I don’t know W.,But that is my hope for you in eternity. Christ and I are both saddened at times by the attitude that eternal life and the joy that overflows is found in the studying and quoting of the book of letters, when in fact and deed it is found only in relationship with and faith in Christ. I am aquainted with some that have studied the book of letters for a lifetime but never entered into the joy of the Lord.In this time,Not all are called to be true friends and brothers of Christ, some are called to be servants. Enjoy your servanthood. I do have one question. Why are you so bothered that Christ loves me so? P.S. I will not be participating in a Wayne and Derek type thing with you.
My reflection on fear of the Lord:
Fear of the Lord is, Lord, you are right, I am not. You are holy, I am not. You are awesome, I am not. You are love, I am not. Our response to God’s revelation of Himself is what counts. The more God reveals of Himself, the more we understand the inner work of grace that God needs to do in us, that we may be changed into the likeness of Christ. If you love me, you will obey me (John 14:15). Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me … (John 14:21). Now, thank the Lord that He pours His love in our own hearts (Rom 5:5), wants to (re) create us in righteousness and holiness (Eph 4:24), wants us to have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16), Does not want us to have a Spirit of fear, but of love, power and sound mind (2 TIm 1:7). May we be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding (Colossians 1:9). The secret of the Lord is with those who fear him… (Psalm 25:14). It has been said that the Fear of the Lord is intimacy with God.
The fear of the Lord is a major theme in the bible. If your fellowship has not done a study on this, I encourage you all to do so. The outcome should be a greater level of gratitude and thanks to God, as well as allowing wisdom to rule in your actions and thought life.
John2-you said this to PW,
“Enjoy your servanthood. I do have one question. Why are you so bothered that Christ loves me so? ”
You seriously have a perverted and twisted view of Gods word. You turn and twist at every post and it is sickening to see. If you truly believe this that, anyone is “bothered” by the above statement, your delusional.
Long ago ,Fear of the LORD is where my adventure began. Today I am the very righteousness of God, I am Holy,Unafraid, and I am awesomely, fearfully and wonderfully made. A new creation. By grace,mercy and faith in Christ, May it be found so in me tomorrow also. And also in anyone else who so desires such an experience. Escape from the sorrows of self.
Tusheva, there is NO crossroads concerning Loving the Lord and Fearing Him. We are to have and can have both.
You need to read and to really seek the Lord on His Rightful reverent FEAR. It is not a topic that is well liked.
People misunderstand what it really means to Fear, to Reverence the Lord.
I would even go as far to say that those that have been abused by parents of past relationships can view , even the,: true fear of the Lord ,not in the true Light Jesus would have us too.
‘Behold; the worshipful fear of the Lord; that is Wisdom; and to depart from evil is
understanding’ (Job 28:28).
‘The reverent fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. All those who do the will of the
Lord, have good understanding and wisdom. Their praise of Him endures forever’ (Psalm
111:10).
‘The reverent fear of the Lord is the beginning and the principle of knowledge (that is its
starting point and its essence);
but the foolish despise Godly Wisdom, instruction and
discipline’ (Proverbs 1:7).
‘The reverent fear of the Lord is the beginning (the chief and choice part) of Wisdom; and
the knowledge of the Holy One is insight and understanding’ (Proverbs 9:10).
‘The reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord teaches Wisdom, and humility comes before
honour’ (Proverbs 15:33).
‘There shall be stability in your times; an abundance of salvation, wisdom and knowledge.
The reverent fear and worship of the Lord is your treasure’ (Isaiah 33:6).
There are many more concerning this Fear. Read and pray, ask the Lord for His understanding to show you and to bring you to the truth of His word.
Bound,
I just love it when people tell me I really NEED to SEEK the Lord, when it was me who was lost and He found me, causing me to turn to Him.
But thank you for your reply and may Father draw you deeper into Him.
Correction, Their are *No Crossroads, not there is no.
Correction- abused by parents and or past relationships.
I sincerely hope and pray Teshuva, you will earnestly seek the Lord, not people concerning this, so that you may begin to see the truth in the Lord’s Light. It is one thing to explain all the day long but when you really prayerfully read for your own-self, meditate on His word and pray for Him to guide you into ALL truth, when seeking His truth, He will Faithfully reveal to you and open your eyes to His understanding.
May He lead and guide you, Teshuva into ALL truth, and May His true peace be yours in abundance.
The unfolding of Your words gives light; It gives(imparts) understanding to the simple.
- Psalms 119:130
For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life,
-Proverbs 6:23
Hi Teshuva, you must have been posting when I was. Id rather people tell me to, Seek the Lord, than to go here or there or read someones book. I find no offense when people say seek the Lord, for it is scriptural.
Bound,
No one should have to tell someone to seek the Lord, this should be paramount in our day to day experience.
As for being offended, I am not offended.
You say for me to ask the Lord to show me His understanding.
When I traveled this fear road, I did just that, asked Him to show me what he meant by that which He wrote.
I responded your question by pointing you to the word of God and to Jesus. I will kindly bow out now as I see your a bit pricked by the very words , seek the Lord.
Bound,
2Tim.1:7
God has not given us THE spirit of fear but of power and love and a sound mind.
Pricked? Not so.
I wrote to you above that I had a reverential fear or awe of Him, and not a dread.
I can tell you first hand He does not like unbelief, and gets very wroth with that to the cutting off of that branch.
I can tell you when you repent and turn to Him, He will give you the spirit of adoption where you will call Him Father.
Bound,
Wisdom asks this question.
If you think you have pricked my heart why would you bow out and leave me bleeding instead of applying the balm of Gilead for my wound you inflicted?
That would be likened to the heart surgeon who goes in to do a bypass and discovers the patient has heart damage after making their incision and then saying, well, now that I have cut him open, and seen the damage I will bow out as there is no hope for him, thus leaving the patient for dead when at first he was trying to rescue him.
Father told me long ago to do no harm.
So this I keep in mind when I speak to someone.
Your not bleeding Shuva, your agitated because I simply said, Seek the Lord. No point in sharing when your not hearing. Instead of talking about the fear of the Lord you turned it onto something else and yes I will and can bow out. Peace.
On the contrary, the joy of the Lord is with me today!
The servant who fears cannot be the perfect servant.He will never be the perfect servant.The perfect servant binds himself to his master,hangs one every single word of his master,Lives ONLY for his master,regards no other before his master.Literally no-one else,not even his own flesh and blood.
The perfect servant does not merely obey,he pre-empts his master.He knows what his master wants before the master has even thought of it.His master never has to give specific orders to the perfect servant.If the perfect servant is having a bad day his master merely has to drop a hint and his wishes are fulfilled.
He does this more that willingly. He,walks,talks,thinks,eats,sleeps,drinks,all for his master.He considers that to not be a servant to his master is to be a DEAD man.
The perfect servant would choose to die rather than serve another master.
There is no fear in this.The perfect servant knows EVERYTHING about his master.The master thinks of his perfect servant as his best friend.
FEAR is the BEGINNING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Our Father tells us this.
THE BEGINNING.
“There is no fear in love,perfect love drives out fear,the one who fears is not made perfect in love.”(Apostle Paul).
Exchange the word Love in these words from Paul with the word SERVICE.
The perfect servant loves his master perfectly just as his master loves him.
JB2:
I am not bothered by Christ’s love for anyone – or their love for Christ. I rejoice in any true love for Christ. It is greater than I or anyone can fully fathom. Perhaps you missed it in my last post, but I do have a friendship with Christ – a deep friendship. He is “a friend that sticks closer than a brother” (Prov.18:24). He gives me a “joy unspeakable and full of glory” (1 Peter 1:8).
JB2, why are you so bothered that the Bible teaches that a true friend is a servant? What is hindering you from serving those whom you claim to love – especially Christ, Who calls Himself our Lord and Master (John 13:13,14 – the same conversation, incidentally as John 15:15)? I don’t know your answers to those questions, but typically one who rejects serving from the heart of a servant, as the Bible describes – especially in the context of a supposed friendship – usually has a problem with pride. I’m not saying you do, but perhaps you might want to consider allowing the Word and the Spirit to examine your heart for such.
Because the “Word made flesh” is such a precious friend, I desire to know all I can about Him, His thoughts, His ways, His Truth. He has revealed all this and more in His written Word. I talk with Him day-by-day and He speaks to me, but I know that what is being spoken to me is truly Christ because the Spirit of Christ NEVER contradicts the Written Word. The better I know what the Spirit of Christ has put into writing, the better I can know whether the voice I am hearing is His.
It only takes sitting through a professional illusionist’s (magic) show to demonstrate how easily our senses can be deceived. Or ask any of Bernie Madoff’s former followers how easy it is for one to allow oneself to be conned by someone else.
No, I will stand upon the Truth of the Written Word of God over any subjective experience – especially when the two are in conflict. Sometimes, because of that stand, the Lord has led me to discover Truth afresh as I have come to the Lord on my face with His Word asking Him to show me His Truth in the midst of that which has presented the conflict. The Truth has always come to me through the Word by His Spirit.
Both Christ and I are saddened at those who claim to love Him but reject, ignore, twist, or denigrate His expression of Himself in His Word.
His Word is so much more than a “book of letters.” He has magnified His Word above all His name (Ps.138:2).
The Word of God is not merely a “book of letters” upon pages. Rather the Word of God “is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.” – Hebrews 4:12 (AMP)
The Written Word of God is the ONLY OBJECTIVE standard God has given by which He has shown us His Truth about Himself, ourselves, and all matters of faith and practice.
Subjective experiences can only have a solid basis in objective truth. If one’s experience contradicts the Truth of God’s Word, then I will accept His Word over experience every time. Those I’ve observed (including myself at times) who have chosen experience and ignored the Word have come to an unprofitable end because of it. Those I’ve observed who’ve stood firmly upon the Truth of God’s Word – often against what subjective feelings and experience were telling them – have found God’s Word to be true and reliable. The Word of God also testifies to the truth of my observations, leading me to know this as Truth.
It is interesting that when Christ’s disciples were struggling with their own preconceived ideas in the context of their current experience that Christ Himself reverted to expounding the Scriptures to teach them truth (Luke 24:27)
It is also interesting that as the apostle Paul was being a witness of Christ, that He did so, not only by relating His own experience with Christ, but also “he reasoned with them from the Scriptures” (Acts 17:2).
No, I do not wish to participate in “a Wayne and Derek type thing” either. Derek is fond of ignoring/twisting the Word in favour of his own opinions, refusing to “reason from the Scriptures.” If you wish to do the same, then I do not wish to participate any further in this discussion. The Scripture warns (numerous times) that such wrangling about words, ideas and experiences at the expense of the Word is to engage fools and is wasted endeavour.
Opinions and experiences are (as the expression goes) a dime a dozen – and often worth less.
If, however, you wish to examine the Word and reason from the Scriptures, I will happily engage with anyone seeking His Truth as revealed in His Word.
“Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action), So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.” – 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (AMP)
This passage makes me wonder why those who claim to be born of God would prefer promoting their own experience and opinions instead of engaging in a study of what the Scriptures teach. Perhaps these two verses (together with John 3:20, 21) reveal the answer.
Your servant in Christ,
Wayne
What does it say about one’s skill in God’s Word when he can’t tell the difference between the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John (1 John 4:18. See also Matt. 11:19)?
May I cheerfully continue to do what is right and live by the light of the Word, so that my deeds may be made manifest,so that it may plainly be seen that what I do and say has been wrought by God. And also with you.
A Blessed friend of Christ,
John the Baptist the 2nd
Fear is a natural consequence for sin.
In Gen. adam says, I heard Thy voice in the garden, and I was AFRAID/FEAR, because I was naked, and I hid myself.
Even in Proverbs the wisdom book, that the wicked flee, even when no man is pursuing, but the righteous are bold as a lion.
Wayne,thank you for your understanding of subjective v objective.
My understanding is that God gives us meaning to his words through our subjective experience.You rightly make the good point that our experience must be checked against the true objective word of God.
Yet you just cannot help yourself,you had to get a dig at me into a post that had nothing to do with me.
I am learning to understand you more and more.
Derek you said,”The perfect servant does not merely obey,he pre-empts his master.He knows what his master wants before the master has even thought of it.His master never has to give specific orders to the perfect servant.If the perfect servant is having a bad day his master merely has to drop a hint and his wishes are fulfilled.”
Are you serious? sounds like a fairytale book to me.
You may not know a lot about service.My forefathers were in service to aristocracy.I assure you that the best servants were held in very high regard by their masters.The very best were the most senior in servant authority,the very,very best knew their master so very well that they almost never needed to be given orders.They knew exactly what their master wanted almost before he knew himself.
These perfect servants spent many years in the service of their masters and knew all there was to know about them.
You may think it a fairy tale yet it is true enough.
Favoured servants were looked after for life,lived free in housing on the estate after retirement and given a small pension.
Although servants the best masters considered them friends.
They lived and worked in a ‘type’ of Kingdom.
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits, and doctrines of demons;
1 Timothy 4:1
Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. Luke 17:1
Quote from Derek: The perfect servant does not merely obey,he pre-empts his master.He knows what his master wants before the master has even thought of it.His master never has to give specific orders to the perfect servant;
This is a big time error, for NO servant is above his Master as you speak above. It is Jesus Christ whom knows our every thought before we pray, speak and our very thoughts. What you have stated is the opposite. Even with the mind of Christ being renewed, we still do not know His every thought. We do NOT know the Lords,every thought. You are speaking as though the servant is above His Master. Doctrines of demons are flooding the pulpits and forums and it is ever increasing as written in the word of God:
Matthew 10:24 says,
The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.(The verse itself requires no comment, its truth and reasonableness are self-evident.)
Luke 6:40 A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
John 13:16 I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
John 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.
Just looking at the posts re: fearing the Lord.
The discussion could perhaps be more focused by looking up the definition of “fear” in the dictionary. One would find that it includes the meaning of “respect” or “reverence” as well as “terror” or “alarm.”
A comprehensive concordance search of “fear” in the New Testament will find a number of Scriptures where born-again believers are commanded or exhorted to “fear.” One might also want to examine the Old Testament Scriptures which speak specifically of the “fear of the Lord.”
And for those concerned about whether to “seek” the Lord or not, please do not ignore the truth of Hebrews 11:6 – “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM.”
God bless,
Wayne
It also means punishment.
Derek, I have to agree with Bound on the servant is not greater than the Master.
This would be presumption, getting ahead of the Holy spirit, and thus pride, which comes before a fall.
Wayne, simply thank you! Well put! You understand the (True Fear of the LORD) of what Im speaking of and hearing(understanding) as well.
On friendship/ servanthood
I love my wife, she is my absolutely best friend, which I express in practical ways in serving her.
On Love/Fear
My children love me, they tell me so and show it. They know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I love them, and that I would give my life for each one of them if necessary. They deeply respect me because of it, and also because of my integrity, honesty and strength to provide for them and to help them when they need help. Their fear is to disappoint the one who so deeply loves them and whom they love.
————————————————————————————————–
Here is a wonderful treat, almost like a piece of Heaven to me. Just picture the angels singing their praises to Him…
250 voices praising Jesus in the most beautiful way. Hope you can open this You Tube clip. One thing that deeply touches me here, is that there are people from all kinds of cultures and colors worshipping together so beautifully.
Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir singing “Worthy is the Lamb”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gae-n0Pb7Q
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Watchman,
Thank you for that beautiful presentation on the fear of the Lord!!! Doing a dance!! Yes!!!
Fear not.Do not be afraid.
I am in awe of Our heavenly Father, His Son and Holy Spirit 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
I am with you John the baptist!!
Dear all, there is absolutely no confusion in the rapture message as stated in the Scriptures. Jesus through apostle John stated to the church of Philadelphia in Revelation 3: 10 the following: “Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.” Here in this verse, ‘the hour of trial that comes upon the whole world is the ‘Great Tribulation’ and God promises His bride, His called out chosen few that He will keep them from that ‘Great Tribulation’. In Revelation 2:22 We read Yashua rebuking the church of Thyatira saying, “Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.” In plain words, if one does not repent of their adultery (spiritual/physical) will be thrown into Great Tribulation. Also, please refer to Revelation 14:14-20, there we read about two harvests; the first harvest when Yashua put in His sickle to gather the harvest of the earth and the second harvest when the angel put in the sickle to gather the cluster of the vine of the earth. If Yashua had already gathered every believer at the first harvest, then what is left for the angel to pick and choose from? Remember, that at the second coming the bride does not rise up in the air to meet Yashua, rather Yashua comes to the earth with His bride to rule and reign for thousand years. While at the rapture, the bride rises to meet Yashua in the air according to 1st Thessalonians 4:17 Also bear mind that there is a time gap between the first sickle and second sickle of Revelation 14:14-20.
Let’s turn to Revelation 11:11-12, there we read; ‘Now after three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. And they heard a loud voice saying to them, “Come up here”. And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.’ This is the first rapture, the rapture of the bride and it is Christ who gathers them. There is a space of time between this event and the last trumpet (the seventh trumpet). In verse 15 of Revelation 11, we read the following: ‘Then the seventh angel sounded: and there were loud voices in heaven saying, “the kingdom of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” This is the Second Coming of Christ, when the tares and everything that offends, are gathered together in a bundle and thrown into the fire (reference: Matthew 13:41-43); but those who prevailed over the beast by not worshipping the beast or his image and refusing to take mark on their forehead or on their hand, are gathered to the kingdom of Christ. They do not experience rapture. This episode is what apostle Paul refers to in 1st Corinthians 15:51-52, wherein he says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” Here, those who are raised from the dead are those who died during ‘Great Tribulation’. They are different from those mentioned in 1st Thessalonians 4:17. There the dead in Christ include all those who died in Christ after Christ’s resurrection from the dead. If you remember that in the account of Matthew 27:52, there is a mention of the graves being opened and the saints being raised at the death of Jesus, and they appearing to many after Christ’s resurrection and ascension to heaven. Do you know who these saints were? These were the Old Testament saints.
The second point I want to drive across is the words of Yashua in John 7:17, “If anyone wants to do His will, he will know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.” All those who are born of God and those who are not, will be revealed over a period of time. All those taught of God and those who are not, will also become evident, so let us leave it aside the ‘judgment’ and concentrate on what matters most. Please ponder on John 6:44-45, as it speaks volumes about who belongs to Yashua.
Thirdly, about the ‘Famine of the Word’. I an posting my comments here as that particular section was closed. In Zechariah 14:6-7, we read thus, ‘It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It shall be one day known to the Lord – neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light.’ In the above verse ‘6’, the word ‘light’ refers to the ‘glorious ones’. When the ‘glorious ones’ are taken out at the rapture, there will be a famine of the Word as prophesied in Amos 8:11. Also, if we understand the working of God with an individual, we will realize that God deals with an individual 3 times and at the most 4 times, through His Spirit, to turn him to righteousness, and this is confirmed by the following Scriptures: Luke 13:6-9; Job 33:29-30. God’s Spirit does not strive with a man endlessly. If the man turns a deaf ear to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit withdraws from him and there comes upon him a famine of the word of God. He loses both;hope and salvation.
Prepare all the ‘Lord’s Way’. Christ is Coming. Be Prepared or Don’t Be. It is also permissible and encouraged to enjoy in the preparations for his return. Or you may be miserable in doing so. We do have freewill choice. Just be ready.
BiS, When did I write that’s the perfect servant is ever above his master?A servant serves a master and that’s the very end of it.
Please try better to not make meaning out of my words that is not there.
Fear is defined in the Greek as fear,dread,terror,reverence.(strongs5401) & fearing,reverent,afraid.(strongs 3373).
Do any of these apply when we LOVE?
Fear is opposed to love.The opposite of love is fear.
Hate is a manifestation of fear,one of many.
We cannot love whilst in fear.Love is a thing in action.The fearful are incapable of loving action.
PERFECT LOVE DRIVES OUT FEAR.
“Esteem one another more highly than ourselves” (Philippians 2).
“Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.” (1 Peter 2:17)
I was flogged several times a day for many years, between the age of 5-14 years, by a violent woman. First there was fear and dread, because of the unjustified impending judgment ready to strike at any moment. At the same time, a ferociously violent man lived in my household. He never beat me, but he evoked terror by his mere presence and the sound of his voice. Fear reigned in my heart, but I refused to let it master me, so I chose to do what I believed was right and sought not to let that fear manifest into violence and anger.
In 1 Peter 2:17, you would have to ask yourself what is the word fear doing with words like love and honour. Without doing the Greek and all the theology (which we should do anyway), it is reasonable to conclude that the fear above must be a far higher degree of love and honour than we could give any fellow human being. Coming from my experience, I have no problem fearing, loving, honouring, reverencing, standing in awe of (“fearing”), God, because His covenant with me is a covenant of life and peace (Malachi 2:5). I live in covenant relationship with God (unilateral) and there are demands in that covenant. I cannot change that. I can choose to obey God and love God and live in freedom as a loving servant, or disobey God and live in bondage and slavery and reap the consequences. When you love someone, you honour them – you give them proper respect, with both your words and actions, exercising humility and lowliness of mind. Love is about obedience and heart attitude, honour is putting it all into action with words and deeds. Fearing God involves the totality of these, resulting loving Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength.
We can fear (honour) God, or we can “fear” (be scared of) God. The one who fears (human fear) does not know God and is probably serving an idol, since he does not know that God is love, not a hard man (Matthew 25:24).
Honour means to hold in the highest regard. How much more higher than man should we love/honour – God? A godly fear is not the same as the fear that brings shame, guilt and judgment (Adam & Eve). There is such a thing as a demonic fear, also. What is the opposite of human fear? Perhaps it is courage, confidence and faith, without which it is impossible to please God. THat is why I have already stated that it is believed that the fear of the Lord is intimacy with God.
God knows when we honour other people. He can tell by our prayers and our attitude. The quicker we honour people, the greater respect (or fear) we have for God. To experience a fellowship that esteems one another 100 per cent is beautiful to behold and be a part of.
I really appreciate these other posts, though I have not analysed them in their entirety for tone, nuance and granularity. I know for sure that two people on the post would have a harmonious relationship but the limitations of written speech can cloud our understanding.
Bound, thanks.
Sheeja John – Thank you. I will meditate on what you have written. I was part of a “Philadelphia” fellowship back in the past. It was a beautiful fellowship.
Oh, Mario, thanks (about loving ‘that little testimony’).
Others are pouring out there hearts and seeking to understand and not be misunderstood – bless you.
God bless you my brothers and sisters.
Intimacy,true intimacy comes through love not fear.Someone beaten and abused by another can respect and honour him but never wish to be intimate with him.An abuser is incapable of intimacy,he knows and understands only fear.
“There is no fear in love,perfect love drives out fear,the one who fears is not made perfect in love,
Apostle Paul.
The Holy Spirit gives us understanding.he lifts the veil for us to see.
Tone,nuance and granularity are all missing from Holy Scripture yet the holy Spirit still shows us all things.
Analysis is contrary to the way the Spirit works in us.
Jordan,
Blessed is our Father who has kept you from becoming bitter by the hands of those who would beat you.
What you suffered as a child has caused you to bring a more clear definition to those who read and are filled with dread.
I am touched by what you have brought forth.
I should like to say also that the mind is a marriage bed and when our soul becomes one with His spirit then there is a consummation and thus the marriage bed is undefiled. In these chambers there comes a love that is better than wine, gold or anything else that is down here, and it removes the fear and dread that some would instill in others.
As you pointed out the one who fears is one walking in flesh and thus these fears Father will use to serve His purpose in purifying us.
John the baptist brought forth scripture of fear not, be not afraid, to which we should believe, but it does not give someone a clarity as does the subjective and objective or experience that you and Mario have brought forth in this thread. thank you guys for turning on the lights and not hiding them under a bushel.
Derek,
Don’t be too hard– there are steps in intimacy.
My eyes have been opened to this very thing today.
So, Derek, is it your version of “Holy Spirit” which led you to this new insight that the Apostle John is actually the Apostle Paul? You’ve said so, twice, even though an attempted correction was made by me after the first claim.
You may be listening to a “spirit” friend, but it is obviously not the Holy Spirit the Bible describes. Your attributions to the Holy Spirit in your writings has much more in common with the Kundalini spirit than with the Holy Spirit of the Bible.
Derek, J2, Shuv, you are a but a small mirror image of what the apostate does , acts and talks like. You do not have the Reverent Fear of the Lord, You skip around merrily as if jumping from cloud to cloud. You speak one thing out of your mouths and act as if everything is well in your world of falseness. You do not even know what you are saying and jump from one post to another. The ground your on is quick sand. Anyone that reads your posts will see that they are deluded and delusional. The Apostate has No Fear of the Lord, nor do they even desire to. Why do people in the middle of discussions posts music videos? Another distraction brought in to detour away from not only seeing the real truth but from seeking the truth. that is the false rejoicing alright.
Jude 12-13
These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”
16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and FEAR FELL on them all, and the NAME OF THE LORD JESUS WAS MAGNIFIED.
18 And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds.
19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver.
20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.
It is past time for action! The Fear of the Lord must return to the hearts of the people and to the streets! Fakery would cease!
Only the love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance of the Holy Spirit, Gal5:22-26 is acceptable to God. And these fruit, like any other fruit on a fruit tree, cannot be manufactured by the birth pains of the flesh. These fruit are not picked off by the Holy Spirit and handed to us to eat or keep or store. These fruit are the CHARACTER/NATURE of the Spirit of Holiness and cannot be separated from HIM….and only where HE IS PRESENTLY BEING MANIFESTED is where His fruit are PRESENTLY BEING MANIFESTED.
Ga 5:19 Now de the works ergon of the flesh sarx are esti manifest, fanerov which ostiv are esti these; Adultery, moicea fornication, porneia uncleanness, akayarsia lasciviousness, aselgeia (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, (ASV)
20 Idolatry, eidwlolatreia witchcraft, farmakeia hatred, ecyra variance, eriv emulations, zhlov wrath, yumov strife, eriyeia seditions, dicostasia heresies, airesiv (KJV)
21 Envyings, fyonov murders, fonov drunkenness, meyh revellings, kwmov and kai such toutoiv like: omoiov of the which ov I tell prolegw you umin before, prolegw as kaywv I have proepw also kai told you in time past, proepw that oti they which do prassw such things toioutov shall klhronomew not ou inherit klhronomew the kingdom basileia of God. yeov (KJV)
Please notice that for murder we have the word phonos, which is where we get out word for telephone.
It means to speak things or breathing out words to threaten as if to slaughter with words.
Research acts 9:1 and see where Saul did this himself, and even ready to physically kill.
My peace is not false and is a keeping peace of the Lord, and I have not brought any railing accusations against you but have tried to maintain a steadfastness to the teaching of Yeshua in His sermon on the mount, by BEING a Beatitude and not having an attitude of ugliness toward you.
My goal is to see God and the only way is through purity.
I could share much with you about fear but some of you think I am not to be believed as if I cannot possibly have the Holy Spirit.If my understanding is different to yours then I cannot possibly have been given it by the holy Spirit RIGHT?
You are discerning between spirits I think.Is it God’s discernment you have or your own.Man puts great stay in wisdom yet man’s wisdom is worthless.
“My thoughts are not your thoughts”, says the lord.Your thoughts and mine are worthless and it is dangerous to rely on them.I totally reject opinion,both yours and mine.
I am no stranger either to fear and to violence.I know what it is to be in total fear of my life,of imminent death.I know what it is to both give and to receive violence,extreme violence.
be selective if you choose to,pick out all the Scriptural references about the need to fear God that you wish to.That’s exactly what you do BUT,
There is NO FEAR in Love,Perfect love drives out fear,the one who fears is not made perfect in love”.
God tells us “You are being made PERFECT”.
Now pick the bones out of that.I know you will,you will come back with all the passages about fear EXCEPT THIS ONE.
“This generation looks for signs. They run after any man who proclaims to have my power. I have seen their hearts. Many would buy the anointing if they could. Just as Simon, they want my power more than my presence. Blessed are those who walk in love and in quiet humility, forever trusting; and who will never leave the path, because they know that I am always right there with them.
How great is the testimony of one who believes without seeing! When will they long for my presence more than my power? How blessed are those for whom my grace is sufficient in times of need, and whose trust will never be compromised!
Do you not know that signs are given to the weak, so they will believe? Yet those who think highly of themselves and proclaim they know me, they too want signs. Do I not see a man’s heart? Do I not hear a woman’s cry? How can a man who has lifted himself up expect to be lifted up on that day? Blessed are those who mourn and weep now for they will be comforted. Blessed are those whose heart is lowly before me, for they will be lifted high on that day.”
Blessed be our Father who by His Spirit causes Babylon to fall that His Kingdom may be established.
Blessed are Your works Father and that Your hand is not too short that it cannot save.
Blessed are You Father that with You all things impossible with men are possible with You.
Bless the Lord, Oh my soul and ALL that is within me, bless Your Holy Name.
Mario, Jorden,Teshuva and some others,
Thank you so for sharing. I am humbled, pleasantly so, by the wisdom , grace ,and majesty that I find in the Body of Christ.My walk in Christ has been so edified and enhanced you,His Body.
HalleluJah— Maranatha
M.J.T. and others. Just noticed an error in my post to you all. either a typo or a glitch. I kind of think it was supposed to read.”my walk in Christ has been so edified and enhanced BY you, His Body. Kind of 2 different meanings there. Thank you again.
That last statement by Watchman basically hit the nail on the head.
Seek ye first the kingdom of God and then all these things will be added unto you.
That post is worth paying attention to
After reading both articles may I add a big Amen!
It is well past time to shake off the cloak of doubt and move out in the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
Compasson must move our hearts from the cold or lukewarm place they are at.
No longer can we afford to argue with each other over points of doctrine that are only holding back our individual faith walk.
Each must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
Do what the Father sent us to do. Seek to edify the body of Christ.
Let it begin with me today dear Lord Jesus.
This forum is a mighty army, may our combined faith, give us a quiet spirit to hear the still small voice, when the signs and wonders are to come forth.
Sharon,
I think you may miss the point of debate.Jesus never united with false doctrine It as round about us and within the church you know.the Pharisee’s spread it like a plague.Pharisee’s are alive and kicking today.
The new testament has many warnings about the danger of false doctrine.Did it all just go away Sharon?
The body of Christ is to be united in true doctrine,without spot or wrinkle.It only takes a drop of false doctrine in the right place for the whole church to eventually be corrupted by it.
False doctrine MUST be rooted out and exposed.Some are equipped for this task and others should let them complete it.
if you have elements of false doctrine Sharon you are exposed to serving the wrong master without knowing it.
These disagreements are NOT just men arguing for no purpose.I accept that the Spirit fruits should be present but despite this the matter of false doctrine must be exposed.
I find it amazing the apostate calling themselves the true body. Light pierces the Darkness, yet the apostate would rather embrace the false and pamper them. While the true gets called out, pretty pathetic. I just had dream yesterday and the Dimming light was about go out on the apostate. They will soon be without any left as the Lord God himself is about to withdraw any dimming light that is left. Soon the pulpits, buildings, forums will be without the TRUE LIGHT of Jesus. They do not trust in the Lord Jesus. He is our father, where is the respect? He is our Lord , for where is the True Reverence, it is not in the apostate, no. God has His very few true followers and there Light shall NEVER go out! In the dream the perverse acts of trying to get the Lord attention, did not work. His eye is not on the apostate any longer. Nor did he even look upon their lude and perverse acts. Farewell~
The Body of Christ is to be united in Love, without spot or wrinkle.
Maranatha
God so loved the world that He sent His only BEGOTTEN Son/Yehsua/ God or love is with us and our salvation, since God is love…..
Hatred and variance etc. is MISBEGOTTEN and out of wedlock and is but a b@$tard, and evidence of the false and the apostate.
“Their fear is to disappoint the one who so deeply loves them and whom they love.”
Amen Watchman, how beautifully said! That makes my heart dance too, think I will have to join Teshuva in that dance! \o/
It’s the enemies of God who need to fear, not His Bride, else it wont be much of a honeymoon will it…the whole thing about the Bride is the intimacy, growing in intimacy which is nigh impossible in the presence of fear.
Mum,You are a ray of light.Why did I not think of those very words.Lol.
Thank you for kind words, Tesh/J2…
BoundinHisSkirt – I too had a dream last night. I was sitting in a room with major proponents of one of the Christian movements of today. I started the conversation by saying that the CHurch needs the Holy Spirit desperately today. Then, the main person of the movement got up and preached powerfully for a few minutes – not really sure what he said, but it was emphatic and sounded anointed. Now his appearance changed when he got up and preached and then changed back when he sat down. No one else seemed to notice this. His former and latter appearance was of a man that resembled a down and out street hobo. Perhaps as you say, God is removing the little light that is left – does that mean He gives them over to delusion. Or, perhaps, the inner man of that movement was revealed to me. Either way, it is significant to me, as past experience has shown. I will pray about this.
Watchman – well said: “This generation looks for signs. They run after any man who proclaims to have my power. I have seen their hearts. Many would buy the anointing if they could. Just as Simon, they want my power more than my presence. Blessed are those who walk in love and in quiet humility, forever trusting; and who will never leave the path, because they know that I am always right there with them.”
“They want my power more than my presence.” Interesting comment. A few years ago, when some of the “superapostle” nonsense was gaining more momentum, a Church I attended seemed happy to identify with that group, even the one who was having a “birthing the presence of God” meeting in America. Anyhow, just saying that to give context here. THe minister said at the end of the praising God time, “There is nothing more important than the presence of God.” I was disturbed by this statement and immediately asked the Lord, “Is that true Lord?” Immediately the Lord responded with the answer, NO. I asked the Lord why. He said that Adam and Eve had my presence and still chose to sin.
Now, above, someone elevated the fruit of the Spirit to the detriment of the fear of the Lord. Let me please say this: Suppose you enter a land a milk and honey; enjoy the fruit of the Spirit and coast along enjoying God’s love, just like Adam and Eve. Then one day, something appeals to you (doctrine, idea, whatever) and you swallow it hook, line and sinker. What then? I seriously wonder whether fear of the Lord (reverance and total unwavering obedience to God) actually serves a purpose where deception and temptations lurk around the corner – a kind of protection for the saints, to keep them from sinning. Is enjoying the love of God and the presence of God, enough to keep us on track and work out our salvation in fear and trembling?
Someone above mentioned arguing on your doctrines. Doctrine should inform how you live, but there is a gap between having the doctrine and living the life we are called to live. The gap? Fear of the Lord? I am putting this out there for consideration. I have sought to bring encouragement in these posts not just with doctrine but an example of some of my life (testimony). I do realise that the Word, witness of the Spirit and experience (testimony) must line up together. I have sought to do this by letting people get a glimpse of real life and God’s will, His word, as I am sure many of you would be able to do likewise, and some have already done.
THe fear of the lord is the beginning of knowledge. What knowledge? What does that knowledge lead to? Someone said, “Knowledge has to do with a part of your life, wisdom has to do with all of your life.” Scripture says, “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments … (Pslam 111:10). So, perhaps Adam and Eve did not have the fear of the Lord, since they did not do His commandment??? How much more do we need in the midst of us sensing that the presence of God is NOT HERE, and in the midst of us failing to possess joy, or patience (fruit of the Spirit) at any given moment, a heart that says, in humility, I will choose to do (fear, respect) what is right in the sight of a Holy God? Fruit of the Spirit and the Presence of God, are good, but they are both a product of the Spirit and the grace of God, not our own doing. At some point we will need to mature and allow Christ crucified to reign in us and actively choose by our will to respect and reverance and obey God, even when we don’t “feel” He lavishes us with His love. This is what demonstrates to Him that we believe He is Lord, not just Saviour. THat is why, I believe, many are falling away from the Lord – When the money (feelings, blessings) runs out, you know who your friends are, so to speak. In this time of apostasy, the last phase of the Church Age (1900 years), questionable doctrine has arisen and we need to be alert and sober minded. We should be loving God with our will (heart, mind, soul and strength), not just living off the provisions he has given us (Deuteronomy Ch 8). Otherwise, what shall we say, we when we fall into temptation, or yield to sin? Shall we say, God’s grace covers me and stop there? Or shall we say, God’s grace covers me, and I choose to repent, and thereby, love, obey, respect, God.
Perfect love does not cast out the fear of the Lord. Perfect love says to human fear, I choose to love (forgive, honour, etc) regardless of the fear, torment, persecution, that is imminent or upon me. Love covers a multitude of sins. THrough love, harsh and jugdmental bitter hearts are softened. There have been great movies portray exactly that theme. Please pray as the day approaches.
True obedience stems from love not from fear.
To obey out of fear is less than God commands.His command is to LOVE him not fear him.
Fear of God has its place,it plays a fundamental part in repentance which leads to being saved. No fear-no repentance-no salvation.
Salvation is not the end of things Holy.We are not made Holy merely by being saved,”Be Holy as I am Holy”.
To be Holy is to love perfectly.There is no fear in perfect love.
To love perfectly is to be Holy as God is Holy.
Fear is a means to an end,the Divine end of things.
Fear drives us towards truth,when truth comes and is completed in us fear just disappears and is replaced by true Love.
Jordan,
I think you are speaking of me, that posted the fruit of the spirit issue. You then go forward to speak of a doctrine that shall we say looked good, and they took it hook line and sinker.
I was one of those people. They looked good as an angel of light outwardly.
Because I took my focus off God and put it on their doctrine, I wound up with such fear that I could not even pray. Could not look at Him for what I had done, in shutting out His voice and listening to theirs.
Full of such fear that I was stressed to the point even my blood pressure was extremely high, and in a dangerous level.
These were not the charlatans who take peoples money and things of that nature, in fact they were strict and letter of the word.
When I stood back, though fearful of everything, I was allowed to see their pride, lack of love and false humility.
I then had to examine the scriptures again, in doing so, I seen fear to mean a punishment for disobedience. I do not want to be disobedient so that I cannot pray, or look into the face of the Lord.
In my relationship with Him, it was a joy to do what he asked of me, as He provided the means for it to be accomplished. He removed what needed to be removed and filled it with more of Him.
I am still being restored to Him and it is love that is bringing it forth. I was one of those who said to Him, You are truly right and I was truly wrong.
Fear is rooted in death, and that is what I had become a dead thing to God and His voice.
Maybe this was all His plan so that he could show me the power of His resurrection, for even in that time of death I was struck by lightening literally. As it went up one arm and through my chest and out the other there was no marks and all I could do was jump up and down and say WOO WOW!! with lightening dancing all around me. My heart should have exploded out of my chest literally at this, but God protected me.
Believe me, I do not want to disappoint Him, nor disrespect Him, for in doing there is a consequence.
Jordan, I been thinking on what you shared above. I did not share all of the dream, for one it is rather lengthy. The woman in the dream and the acts she was doing trying to get the Lords attention, she is symbolic of the harlot church. There were people standing outside as I was inside with the Lord. They do not trust the Lord, whispering, standing around. these are they whom are without and outside, they are also the harlot. A man came to me and wanted the imprint of the Doorknob, it was inlaid in a precious metal. I asked him if he had one, he said no. Jesus is the DOOR and many do not count the cost to enter in.
He was a copier, an imator, just as Judas Iscariot. I als had a razor inlaid in a precious metal. In the dream it came to me as it cuts and divides even unto the very marrow. That is dividing between the true and the false. He wanted that also, perhaps he wanted a short cut. He didnt get either. The house with the low lit light has placed an awareness of me how little truth is being Proclaimed and how little those with what little light is left are even falling away now. The Light will be taken from those that do not choose the LIGHT. Light exposes the true character as someone spoke yesterday to me. When the Light is gone, they will wax worse.
The man in your dream is symbolic of what is happening and only those with eyes to see and ears to hear will see and will know they are not the true children of God, they believe they are. I believe what you are probably discerning the Lord has shown you the Truth of not just in the apostate churches but, all who say they have the Light and do not.
Saul did NOT have the reverent fear of the Lord, he too fell far from grace and the Lord repented for even anointing Him and the hand of the Lord was lifted off of Saul. It is past time for warnings, action must be put into place before the Light of the World, Jesus light will be taken from those who do not follow the Lord and obey Him, but rather follow hard after man and his ways, for the Lord will give them the desires of their belly. Take care~
Jordan Shepherd wrote:
“They want my power more than my presence.” Interesting comment…
… The minister said at the end of the praising God time, “There is nothing more important than the presence of God.” I was disturbed by this statement and immediately asked the Lord, “Is that true Lord?” Immediately the Lord responded with the answer, NO. I asked the Lord why. He said that Adam and Eve had my presence and still chose to sin.
————————————————————————————————–
Regarding the Fear of the Lord and God’s presence…
I have briefly touched on the fear of the Lord in an earlier post. As far as my last post, I do not take any credit for it. This was a Word that came to me by the Holy Spirit.
All I can venture to do is try to interpret what He was meaning by “desiring His presence”.
Jordan, when we talk about the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve’s seeming lack of fear, as you wrote about (“…Adam and Eve had my presence and still chose to sin.”), we must first of all look at what life in the Garden was like, and why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was there to begin with. Surely, there was a purpose for that tree.
First of all, there was no fear in the Garden to begin with. Adam and Eve didn’t even know what fear meant until they had eaten the forbidden fruit and their eyes were opened, resulting in self-awareness.
(O no, we are naked. O no, the Father is upset and now we have to live outside of His providing presence, making a living for ourselves.)
Fear came into the world as a result of sin and what happened in the Garden. When we look at small children whose self-awareness has not yet fully developed, we see that they walk fearlessly in their innocence, never questioning their parent’s love, or worrying about what to eat or where to sleep, AS LONG AS MOM IS PRESENT or at least close by. Jesus said that we should become as little children in order to enter Heaven.
In Heaven we see Him face to face as He really is. We will understand then. It is perhaps as if the 90% of our brain which now lies dormant, will be turned on in an instant.
I do not see that there will be any form of fear in Heaven, perfect love instead.
In the Word that I received, when He talked about desiring His presence verses just desiring His power, I think we should understand it this way:
Looking at the story of the prodigal son in modern terms, the son after squandering all his money could have just phoned and asked his dad to send a cheque (Dad’s POWER as a wealthy man) instead of him going back home into his dad’s presence.
Jesus rebuked the disciples when they began to worry about food and shelter, safety etc. “What are you worried about, am I not right here with you?”
In the story of Mary and Martha, Mary preferred to sit at Jesus’ feet, spending time in His presence.
Do you think a lot of the disrespect towards God that we see in the church today and on church stages would happen if Jesus would sit right there in the front row?
I believe that a truly Spirit-filled person (full of His presence) would not be able to do some of the things we see in our churches today.
As far as the Garden…
How can you create someone who is not somewhat like a robot, unless you cut him lose to become free to choose? We cannot choose light unless there is darkness also. I believe that God is not interested in a ‘love’ that is based on fear, or a ‘love’ that exists because there is simply no other choice.
This is the quality of our relationship with God that we freely choose to love Him back.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Mario,
I agree with that you have brought forth.
I too was thinking about this over night.
If Adam and eve had continuous presence in the garden then why did they meet in the coolness of the day?
If there were continuous presence where would be the need to hide as they would have been busted so to speak immediately thus hiding would not have been an option.
Now mind you that God is all knowing so He knew this was going to happen and had already provided the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, which shows His preexistence at the beginning as John brings forth.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if we choose constant presence of God then we minimize the sin through being led of the Holy Spirit yet if we do not have this presence of constant abiding then we run the chance of sinning, which is a flesh thing and an enemy to God which can be punished unless we make confession from a sincere heart and He brings forth forgiveness.
So I have to agree with scripture, and many who have posted here that PERFECT love casts out fear, and if we are not being made perfect in our day to day walk then we should fear of the punishment of our sin. If we are being perfected then it stands to reason that our fear would be one of awe or reverential fear.
True power thus comes from presence, and flows accordingly.
We now not only have quality relationship but also quantity in our relationship, as scriptures say, that we being evil know how to give good gifts to our children, and how MUCH MORE will Father give the Holy Spirit to them who LOVE Him.
He has used me on several occasions, but I was not seeking power, but change in my own life, and even still my goal is change, that His image be perfected in me.Have I attained it yet? No, but I go from faith to faith and glory to glory trusting only in Him.
Dear Tesh, thanks. You have sincerely shared a deep and personal struggle and the Lord it seems has done a work in you, that in truth, I can only appreciate standing from the outside. I cannot speak to the depths that He has freed you from such fear. I only want to say this: I have never felt the fear you described in all my twenty years as a believer. The one true tangible mark that has never left me since the day I was born again is PEACE. I have many testimonies to share on that – supernatural, inner and physical. I will however continue to fear the Lord even as I am guided by His love and by His word. The only way I can describe for simplicity the fear of the Lord, is simply one word – faithfulness. Just like a man is man is faithful to his wife, in thought, word and deed. It it wrong to say that I choose not only to receive God’s love and obey His word, but to also reverance Him and worship Him, thereby truly loving Him not only for what He has done, but for who He is? I’m not saying I am right people, just grappling with the concept. Bless you.
Dear Mario, thanks for responding. I only meant the reference to presence of God, as an aside, indeed I am not refuting or picking up on your previous post. However, I agree there was no fear in the garden, fear came as a result of sin, corrupting the emotions, or spirit, from love, joy and peace, to fear, guilt, condemnation, insecurity – that is plain.
It would be ideal to return to that innocent childlike state, and where the whole world seems utopic, but we are prone to the world, flesh and the devil, and what about the Scripture that says to be wise as serpents, innocent as doves. The child lacks wisdom, but all that is needed for salvation is child like trust. Going forward, would a Christian need discernment to walk in the Spirit? Of course, I guess, so there is a dividing line, the word cuts us under and discerns our hearts, so I am just thinking that being filled with God’s presence is great and will accomplish much, but does that mean we shouldn’t have an overwhelming sense of awe, reverence (fear) for God? In this fear, there is love and trust and security and peace and life. I am thinking this through and considering it as I type.
You said: Do you think a lot of the disrespect towards God that we see in the church today and on church stages would happen if Jesus would sit right there in the front row?
Yes I do. Unless, there is knowledge of who Jesus really is. Unless He chooses to reveal Himself (burning bush, Road to Emmaus, …), depending on perhaps hunger and thirst for righteousness, or unless there is reverence for Him. Just look at how some of the head honshos treated Him back then. But then those people would be ultimately greiving God, while others would indeed be convicted. I sat in a Church service once and wept as the Holy Spirit was greived. I left the room. People were laughing at the heresy being preached, having their ears tickled. I am not arguing with you here, just trying to draw deeper here for understanding. Because it seems the question that may be asked of myself is: Does this man have “fear” or does he have fear of the Lord? If he does not have fear as he claims, and we suppose there is no fear of the Lord in a positive sense, then, he has neither. Then what does this man have? I’ll leave this final thought as I ponder this subject more deeply another time as the Spirit leads me, and that time will come: I can honestly say that the PEACE of God, and the PEACE with God, has never left me (except when I walked away for two years). If that is so, then how can the fear I speak of coexist with the fear you speak of, more directly, how can the fear you speak of coexist with the peace of God? Blessings and keep strong in the Lord.
Dear BoundinHisskirt
“The man in your dream is symbolic of what is happening and only those with eyes to see and ears to hear will see and will know they are not the true children of God, they believe they are. I believe what you are probably discerning the Lord has shown you the Truth of not just in the apostate churches but, all who say they have the Light and do not.”
Yes, what was apparent to me since the day I was born again is that not many have eyes to see and ears to hear. The 2nd Church service I ever attended 20 years ago, a young lady said to me, “What did you think of the preacher, wasn’t he boring with a monotone speech.” I said to her, Yes, BUT DID YOU HEAR WHAT HE HAD TO SAY? I have noticed that a large percentage of people/Christians need good orators to make up for their poor listening skills. More accurately, they are dull of hearing, and that greatly saddens me. Now I don’t profess to be learned in the whole counsel of Scriptures, but one prayer I prayed for the first 15 or so years of my walk with God is: “God, make me the best listener in the world.” Not that I am, but I dread it if I were dull of hearing and could no longer respond to truth. Yes, I do fear that I would be deaf and longer hear what God has to say. Let us shine our light even more as the day approaches. Bless you.
Jordan,
as I think on your words, of being released of fear, I have to say that we are to be made in the image of God.
If so, is He afraid of anything? The answer is a rhetorical no.
Reverential awe I do possess from Him. Yet what is that dividing line of fear?
Does not fear pervert the love of God?
When I was much younger in the Lord I had an opportunity to raise my nephews. One day I spotted one of them climbing a tree, which was a very tall stump. I said to him, get down from there before you fall. After saying this, I was prompted to hear how I had just sent words as an angel of light as fear to him.
I then said to him, never mind, go ahead and climb, if you fall and get hurt I will take you to the hospital.
I found that after asking Father to help me with these children, that I had not completely trusted Him to do so, and thus perverted love with fear.
Oh it seemed harmless for me to warn him, yet I had cast a shadow of fear on him as well as myself until Father removed it. I guess what I am trying to say is that fear comes as an angel of light as does satan, and that when I seen him on that tall stump, I should have just asked Father to watch over him and trust that he would do so.
This lesson was hard for me to understand in the beginning, but it did create a closer bond of trust in Him.
The scriptures say on earth as it is in heaven, and so I try to pattern my thoughts and actions accordingly.
Is there fear in heaven? I do not recall reading that there was. Is there sickness in heaven or death?
Again the answer is a rhetorical no, yet He has promised to wash away all our tears etc..
I am however blessed by your post as they make me think and reflect what I have been shown ans thus bring them alive within me again.
I am still amazed at your testimony and have been pondering it since I have read it. I thank God that He has kept you and prevented you from being like they were.
Dear all, It was a blessing going through all of your testimonies and insights. Feel as though there are like minded people around. My own life has been a miracle from the time I was two years till this very day. Today I am a middle aged woman with three lovely children who also were miracles. If I start describing, I will not be able to finish. So I will describe just one incident ,the faith of my son when he was merely four year old. Myself, my husband, my son and my daughter were on a bike, and it began to pour heavily, so we stopped under a tree for shelter. After about five minutes my son told my husband, “dad you take the bike, we’ll go”. to which my husband replied “we can’t, its pouring”. My son said to my husband, “dad I prayed, you take the bike. the rain will stop.” My husband took the bike hesitantly and as we were all seated, the rain stopped instantly. Do we see miracles even today? YES. My life is very tough but I experience His grace each day. I know what it means by the verse: ‘The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not be in want.” If it was not for God’s love and protection, I and my children would have been dead long time. God has been so patient with my ignorance and my failings that I have been taught to be patient and long suffering; and also tough where I am called to be. Jesus forewarned us that we will be persecuted and chased from city to city because we belong to Him. We will be special targets of the kingdom of darkness. But with Paul I can say, ‘none of these things move me’.
i saw the title and thought, hmmm i wonder how THIS GROUP at THIS SITE will deal with this??? and i wasnt disappointed in my hunch. The general consensus went right to it– “sed in a deep religious sounding tone – “they are seeking the power and not the Giver” etc etc….
K
and where are YOUR miracles? One of my teachers from over the years sed: “most folks wouldnt know the Holy Ghost if he came down the street wearing a red hat” straining at gnats and swallowing camels, or expect and do nothing at all. .. that’s safe…. peter got out of the boat once, and swam another time… yeah, ok, he was just trying to impress Jesus, and well it worked so think some…
and now we see, that the Holy Ghost is the one falling down on the job,,,,
David wrote:
No, I don’t believe it’s a lack of “signs” etc, that is the problem, but a lack of the conviction of the Holy Spirit. HE is the one who convicts….. well someone should TELL Him to get busy…
OK.. so what’s YOUR approach? If your experience is different you exalt it above the word. Age old problem. philosophize everything away to fit your understanding.
& now I too have wasted too much time here when I could have been doing something useful for somebody else. of the making of books and articles,,, there is no end. words words words…. when it’s all sed & done, it’s usually, all sed & done..
I could write volumes and only typed a few thoughts above that probably appear scattered & confuse people and accomplish nothing. I pray that the moderator of this site is endowed with infinite patience. I come here very seldom for this reason: most of what is found here is argument and position against any activity at all and our rhetoric produces nothing. No matter what anyone does, the naysayers emerge and have a problem , out there, with some else, and with what they are doing saying being etc. and I’m always struck with the same thought: …… “What are YOU doing saying or being, that’s accomplishing anything” We arent saved to sit around like yogi’s humming and becoming one with the it. We are supposed to go, say & be. Show me one person anywhere trying to do anything and performing flawlessly and without error down to the jot & tittle & I’ll show you someone who has achieved sinless perfection in the flesh. The minute u stand up like peter did, & say “I’ve had enough sitting around, I’m going fishing, that I know how to do”, you will commence to make errors great and small…. and the peanut gallery will be right there to rate, berate criticise and perform their self appointed Sanhedrin duty of condemning you and your little (or great -God forbid you have evidence of success) thing.
I love the verse, ‘Therefore take up the whole armour of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. – Ephesians 6:13
* The churning of milk produces butter separating it from the water.
* Put the ore in the crucible and out comes the metal for use separated from the dross.
The Lord our God be glorified through it all.
I love the verse, ‘Therefore take up the whole armour of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. – Ephesians 6:13
notice it doesn’t say after having done NOTHING, to stand,
so after being purified and sanctified and fit for use – be USED for some THING….. like the “who lights a lamp and puts it under a basket?” whosoever is churned and refined and meet for use – by all mean, be being used – for someTHING besides marking time and making books about what’s wrong with what everyone else is doing….. you’d get fired from a job if that’s all you produced… the boss would say yeah, that’s fine, nowthen, wheres the stuff I told YOU to be about doing? They are my concern, who told you to be judging another man’s servants? You do what I give YOU to do, and if i go somewhere you “follow thou me”, if that’s the only way you can recognize that directive from your book you read alll the time…. time we start DOING some of it… and the OP topic: miracles fall under that directive
Thanks a lot ‘The Dude’. The Lord who called me decides my assignment. If am put in ‘prison’ I’m still witnessing if like Paul and Silas, I can sing. I’m still about my business when I raise up godly children in dire adversity. I’m still witnessing,when I stand up for the Faith given me, even though pressurized from all sides to ‘compromise’. If God calls me to speak, I speak and when He says ‘withdraw’ I withdraw. He knows better, where to direct me, when and how. Anyway appreciate your response. Hold me in your prayers that God give me the wisdom to become what He wants to me become.