“TO the REV. DR. APOSTLE GRAND POOBAH”
-extracts by J. Lee Grady.
Jesus just wasn’t into titles. We shouldn’t be either… I am often asked if I have a title, and my answer doesn’t satisfy some people. I travel a lot, so I don’t consider myself a pastor. All kinds of labels have been pinned on me: Reverend, prophet, apostle, even bishop. Once I was introduced to a church as “Dr. Grady” and I almost crawled under my seat.
I only have a college degree. There are no letters after my name.
I tell people: “You can call me Lee. Or if you want to sound formal,
you can say, ‘Brother Grady.’”
Today it seems we’ve developed a title fetish. For a while everyone
in charismatic circles was becoming a bishop (and some were
installed into this office with rings, robes and funny-looking hats).
Then the same guys with the pointy hats started calling
themselves apostles. Then the prophets got jealous and started
calling themselves apostles too! I knew one lady who, not to be
outdone, required people to call her “Exalted Prophetess.”
Now the latest fad is requiring church folks to address certain
people as apostles. (As in, “When Apostle Holy Moly arrives,
please only address him as, ‘Apostle,’ and then make sure he is
seated in a private room while his two adjutants, wearing dark
glasses, guard his door.”) They’ve even invented an elaborate
theology to go along with this ridiculous rule. It suggests that you
can’t receive the true anointing from a man of God if you don’t
honor him with the right title.
Sounds so very ooo-ooh spiritual to the naive. But it’s garbage…
Jesus is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Son of David, the
Prince of Peace and the Apostle of our Confession. Yet when He
came into this world He laid aside His heavenly glory and took on
the lowly name of Jesus. He wore no fancy robes. He demanded
no titles. He did not come to be ministered to, but to minister. If
we want to serve Him honorably, we must forsake our need for
fame and cast our crowns at His feet.
-Original Source- http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/fire-in-my-bones/32063-a-message-to-his-holy-highness-the-worshipful-bishop-rev-dr-apostle-grand-poobah
-J. Lee Grady is the former editor of Charisma Magazine.
Hi, I have the John the Baptist the 2nd job. I am not proud of this fact. Nor am i ashamed of of it. My name is John though. and thats what all my friends ,aquaintances and the people I speak with call me. Just John. Who in the world calls thier friends by thier job title? I guess that is what this article is all about. I for one , only use my title when required.
Really?? Hmmmm.
You and I are nothing,in our natural state we are less than nothing and should consider ourselves as such.We only have the right to wash each others feet by the grace of God.
But pastor = bishop = elder. Acts 14:23; 20:17,28; 1 Peter 5:1-5; Titus 1:5-7; 1 Timothy 3:1-7
An apostle had to be an eyewitness to the resurrected Jesus. Acts 1:21-22; 1 Corinthians 15:8-9, and also be able to attest to his apostleship through irrefutable signs. 2 Corinthians 12:12. They were set first in the church, 1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 2:20, and have no successors.
David
God resists the proud… Unforunately there are many who demand titles, like “Senior Pastor”, and even wear a name tags. Do they not realize that they are exhalting themselves at their own expense?
You are not given the authority to speak for me, D. Only yourself. I am honored to be a son of God (with a little s) . and a saint. It is not a right to wash anothers feet, it is a privilage. They only need washing when they are stinky. Are your feet stinky D.?
Honestly, I couldn’t help but laugh out loud through the whole thing. I’m not laughing because what they do is not serious. I’m laughing because these people that do the things Grady describes are so STUPID!!!
Look up that word in the dictionary, and you’ll find out really quickly that it simply means “without reason or SOUND judgement”.
But, then again, anyone that follows them is just as STUPID as they are.
Sadly, this stuff is RAMPANT in Africa and even the USA, my friend. Is it Stupid? Sure! But it goes on and on!!
I am astounded at your almost over passive approach to this.. its an absolute abomination. This man has clearly not experienced the living hell from which he was apparently saved. Such grandness belongs only to ONE, and that be no man/woman walking this earth, except CHRIST. Its an insult to our saviour to bestow such devilish grandeur upon a mere man. Its worse than spitting in Christs face to even accept such a title. Then again, satan is RAMPANTLY active in the church isnt he? Passifying and removing the glory of CHRIST – how punishable those that tolerate it even slightly.
So, while this post does allow the author to vent frustration over an admittedly silly trend in the church, how exactly is it profitable to any of us? The people who really need to hear this message are probably not on this message board.
Forward it to them all then, my friend.
Hi guys, what is God going to call you when you stand in front of the “White Throne”? “My child” perhaps “come sit here by Me” or “Prof. Dr. Ref. Bigshot, go join your bother the devil.” Just asking. Be blessed humble servant.
Dieter
I have to agree, what you see is what you get, no need to dress it up with titles, clamoring for position or the best seats.
Although, if I finish my degree, the title Dr Martin does have appeal.
Study and academic achievement aren’t the point either, as L Ravenhill said, “our leaders today are all degrees and no heat.”
This is “normal” for “religion!” They are no different than the unsaved. They have NO idea what “spirit” they really are of! Hell will hold many so called preachers without number. Yet it is also the fault of the so called Christians who have allowed such and built these one’s egos! If no one followed them and no money came in……they would move on to some other crazy scheme! But God’s people love it so! Because God’s people are so “PRAYERLESS” we have such an utter mess in our religious world. So maybe God is pointing the finger as much at US AS THEM!?
Did Jesus go by a title?Did he tell disciples to call him Lord?
Did he introduce himself as Lord?
What would it have meant if he had introduced himself as MESSIAH.
Maybe he could have worn it on a name badge.
Jesus became the Messiah,fulfilled his role to utter perfection in obedience to God.He had no need or desire to be called by it or to have it presented before him like a neon sign.
There is no humility in a title.
Sometimes I wonder why we focus on things like this when there is a world of things we need to be focusing on and praying for….like sinners who drop like rocks into hell by the countless numbers day by day, and babies slaughtered in the womb daily by the millions. Do we care to stir up the saints to pray for such, and cry out against this, or do we like the titillating junk like this instead? We are all caught up on this drivel and I wonder why. Do these sin laden ones deserve such attention? That is how they get to the positions they have in the first place. I do not think God is really blessed by this article wasted on such ones like this who REALLY DO KNOW BETTER!
They do not know better,they should do but they do not.
This debate is NOT junk.it goes to the heart of being a true Christian,true to Christ.
Those Christians not true to Christ spread doctrine and witness false humility to God.We are to be true witnesses.
How are unbelievers to be shown the true God by false witness?
The Hindu, Gandhi ,was once asked if he was a Christian.He replied that he would be a Christian if he ever met one like Jesus Christ.
Here was a man searching for truth and he was failed by every Christian he met.
Lee of course is right about this becoming more and more of a problem today. Things like this have gotten out of hand in our time since the emphasis on everyone finding their calling in the ‘five-fold ministry’ became popular in the 70′s.
I don’t mind recognizing when someone fulfills the role of a prophet or an apostle, but the main problem I have with that is when they call themselves that or expect it of others. Especially since none of the children of the original Apostles called themselves apostles. You don’t hear about The Apostle Timothy or The Apostle Polycarp in Church history. It re-emerges again after Constantine organized the ‘religion’ of Christianity.
Someone asked me recently about the N.A.R. folks and didn’t I think their ministry showed they were end time prophets. I agreed that they fulfilled prophecies about the end times but mostly about the rise of false prophets as recorded in Mat. 7:15 & 24:11, Mar 13:22 and 2 Pet. 2:1. People should pay more attention to 1 Jn. 4:1 and those who desire titles should consider Luke 6:26. “Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.”
As ministers we are better off if we don’t read our own newsletters and recognize that when we pass no matter what our title was here it usually becomes “I’ll never forget old What’s his name” when we’re gone.
Praise God! It is a very good article which brings out the truth. We should pray for the others who use unnecessary titles to exalt themselves. I beieve it is part of insecurirty and pride
Real apostles and prophets do not use titles for themselves!!!
John the Baptist went by the name John.He was the Spirit of Elijah returned to us.Jesus knew this and said so yet John was so very humble that he did not recognise it in himself.
These title-hungry people have fallen into the error of Balaam: ‘What ELSE will the Lord say?’
Instead of finding their identity in Christ to be more-than-enough, these look for what ELSE they can add to it.
Hmm….. “pride”.
Satan’s favourite sin.
We were given the 5 fold ministry so that we could know how to structure the workings within the bride of Christ – not to exalt men.
Despite his spiritual authority a true apostle knows that he is the least of the bretheren and last in the procession.
If its in the Bible then its what God wanted for us – whether men write about it or not. For 80 odd years no one wrote about fasting yet it is mentioned in the Bible almost just as often as giving money to the poor.
The problem is that the “church” has lost contact with God and are appointing their own apostles. A man or woman anointed by God to be an apostle will be humble and will act under the guidance of the Holy Ghost. Titles wont be important to him. And when he preaches the gospel it will be followed by signs and wonders as promised in the Bible.
Well said brother Amen to that. I have met many of these so called self appointed you will never be as Holy as me clowns, Though I don’t believe everyone that carries a title is away with the fairies to this extreme it is becoming more and more common. There was one guy over a period of a few years built himself up to apostle status then his so called disciples started saying he was the next thing to Jesus, he was so holy because he apparently fasted and prayed all night every night so the rest of his followers wouldn’t have to, all in the name of Jesus they claimed…. Wackos! I am an ordinary christain and stood against this rubbish and I am so glad other men of God are aswell, bring on the True Elijahs and John the baptists to stand against these false prophets.
So does this now apply to calling our pastors by their first names because seriously folks, it’s not just about apostles and prophets –those are just 2 of the 5-fold, and it’s because this is a new and alarming trend (although Bishop So and So has been around for a very, very long time) that it’s making waves. I agree that it’s absurd to go around calling someone Prophet So and So or Apostle So and So, or Evangelist So and So, or even Teacher. But we have this little problem with the fact that most churches call their pastor by some kind of reverential title. So what do we now tell our pastor since we’ve all been enlightened? – “I no longer am calling you Pastor because it’s not really Biblical to assign you that title – I’m just going to call you Brother. I hope you don’t mind.”
We’ve gotten used to using the title of Pastor or for Catholics and Episcopals, some Lutherans – Father. Mary called Jesus Rabboni. Was she the only one? If you throw out one title, you have to throw out the rest. Would you not agree?
Today’s Church leadership. It’s organisational and institutional, and the devil loves it. It’s leadership gone wrong, and the people follow it. Devolve it and the people will grow quickly and see through it. Centralise it and one person will get the glory. The greater the title the greater the danger of error leading others astray. Share it and others become more accountable. Equalise it and everyone can make a contribution for mutual edification. Distribute it, and all will be equipped for ministry. But people are proud of their organisation, achieiving so much for the needy. Like sheep flocking to one Shepherd – they will burn him out, or he will keep them in under dependency. Only a few will observe it’s not working – the people aren’t growing. Teaching equips, edification empowers. Edification is not the responsibilty of one person, nor the function of a single ministry, but the mandate of all gathered together in fellowship. Leadership is good, if it is biblical. A degree is one starting point, but faithfulness endures the test of time.
When JohnS said this probably didn’t apply to those who post here, Andrew posted that we could just e-mail this article if we wanted.
I thought of a pastor right off. Then thought , well why should I be the one to hurt his feelings? He is a sincere man who loves the Lord. And therein may lie the problem. How many want to step on toes?
A person who loves titles because of pride wouldn’t hear, and the rest would just wonder why you were picking at them.
Which is the evil: The title or the pride?
A good article, agree it is true, balance is the key to all controversy if it aligns with the scripture. Spiritual pride smells bad, most important that we examine our hearts continually, examine whether we be of the faith or not! Paul himself addressed himself as a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ, an apostle, teacher, prophet which describe his assignment to the church. We people demand to be called So-So it usually means a phoney, but the anointing of the Holy Spirit will separate the real from the false, which we are warned about in the scriptures. He is the witness to what is Truth and what is not. Preach the Gospel, not another, and we will get the job done before He comes. These signs follow them that believe, Jesus said is the proof ot a believer. A wise man of God once said, if they don’t follow what you preach then examine what you are preaching. Along with this is “by their fruits you shall know them” all five fold gifts require the same agape Love, not the excuse, well, that is just the personality of a prophet or etc. We all must live above reproach, the head of the church said so. Please Him, and not man.
There is a much deeper problem than the title, and much more at stake. Believers need to be established in the faith, so they can do the work of normal everyday ministry to the lost and to the younger babes in Christ. There are other trappings that come along with the titles that don’t warrant mentioning for the discerning. Perhaps it’s time to ask real questions, in spite of the things occuring during this time of apostasy – like, Lord, how, where and to whom shall I minister? Perhaps you could call on the gift of that minister (title) to help you in your ministry, rather than let him remain isolated on a weekly platform where it doesn’t do you, or him, the best service to God.
FROM Brother Pink:
Doctor or Brother?
By A.W. Pink
What strange methods God sometimes employs in teaching His Children much needed lessons! This has recently been the writer’s experience. I have been approached by a “university” to accept from them a degree of “D. D.” Asking for time to be given so that I might prayerfully seek from God, through His written word, a knowledge of His will, fuller light came than was expected.
I had very serious doubt’s as to the permissibility of one of God’s servants accepting a title of fleshly honor. I now perceive that it is wrong for me to receive it even complimentary. Various friends, as a mark of respect, have addressed me as “Dr. Pink.” I now ask them to please CEASE from doing so. Let it not be understood that I hereby condemn other men for what they allow. No, to their own Master they stand or fall. The principal passages which have helped me I now mention, praying that it may please God to also bless them to others.
FIRST, to the false comforters of Job, Elihu said. “Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person, neither let me give flattering titles unto men,” Job 32:31. SECOND, “Be not ye called Rabbi” or teacher,” Matthew 23:8, which is what “Doctor” signifies. THIRD, John 5:44 reproves those who “receive honor one of another” and bids us seek “the honor that cometh from God only.” FOURTH, none of the Lord’s servants in the New Testament ever employed a title. “Paul, an apostle,” but never “the apostle Paul.”
FIFTH, the Son of God “made Himself of no reputation,” Phil. 2:7; is it then fitting that His servants should now follow an opposite course? SIXTH, Christ bids us learn of Him who was “meek and lowly,” Matthew 11:29. SEVENTH, one of the marks of the apostasy as “having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage,” Jude 17. EIGHTH, we are bidden to go forth unto Christ outside the camp “bearing His reproach,” Heb. 13:13.
For these reasons it does not seem to me to be fitting that one who is here as a representative and witness for a “despised and rejected” Christ should be honored and flattered of men. Please address me as “Brother Pink”.
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=691
My wife and I were leaving Walmart the other day and a big old Lincoln town car with darkened windows drove up, A magnetic sign on the door in fancy scrolled letters said, “Bishop Rev. —- of New Apostolic Ministries”. The car stopped and we looked to see who got out. The chauffeur jumped out with his “Driving Ms. Daisy” hat and sunglasses and ran around to the back door, opened it and out came a huge man, with shades also, a silk long tailed suit, and some of the shiniest patent leather shoes you could imagine. Everyone stopped to gander. He walked with his head so high had it been raining his nostrils would have overflowed. I laughed and mused out loud, “Wonder if he will have that same stance when he walks up to a face to Face meeting with our Lord. Then rather than laughing, I almost cried as I remembered the poor souls that he was fooling. A Harsher judgement awaits this man. I prayed for him and especially the chauffeur as we walked on to our car. Lord please wake up our church leaders… humble them, crush them, and then use them for your glory!
I have never liked all the titles…..I think lost people think we are a bunch of nuts with all the titles…we just need to show them Jesus in our way of life. I love the leadership in our group of home churches…we know who the leaders are and we call them by their name. I dont want to be called sister….call me by my name. I dont see much in the bible calling people sister or brother so and so….they just called them by name. All that title stuff and even brother and sister titles are a real turn off to the ones who need to know Jesus.
Was in a church once and the Pastor started to call me General because he said I was to be the head of his army, in reality I was the major donnator! Aba gave me a dream of a golden snake and realized he was showing me the man inside the Pastor, a few days latter after a conference with the man I left the church.
Names are important to God & us. God used names & changed them when He thought necessary. Our names mean something. Every time someone calls my name he speaks a blessing over me. Ian means Grace of God, my wife Joan means the same thing. Don’t ever call me anything else. When the Lord calls me to “come up hither” He will call me Ian. Don’t ever blow a mans ego bubble by calling him by ant title. Never give a reason or excuse. Just call him by his name & thats the end of it If he doesn’ like it, then tell him to change it. If we are happy to blow their bubble, don’t blame them, were calling them by titles so don’t blame them!!!!
As a college student many years ago, I was privileged to spend a weekend washing dishes and mopping floors at pastors’ conference held at a Bible camp. There were 15-20 pastors present, of whom a handful had “Dr.” (all of them honorary) before their names. The speaker, who was the retired head of the ministerial class at my college, with a twinkle in his eye, decreed that ALL of the pastors present would be given and addressed by the title “Dr.” This honorary doctorate was good for the weekend only and only on the premises of that Bible camp.
3John 1:14 tells us to greet the friends by name.
Therefore it has never bothered me to do so, and not so much as put brother or sister in front of their names.
However there are some that have become very close that when I talk to them I may call them brother or sister, but I do not then put their name afterwards.
Though Yeshua was the Son of God,more often than not He referred to Himself simply as son of man, and made no reputation of Himself.
Although most of these things mentioned in the article are pretty obvious, it is good to reflect on what Lee said.
The deception to “wear” a title can be very subtle, and even a little bit of leaven (hidden pride?) can spoil the whole man and perhaps others. Let’s remember that pride led to the first sin (lucifer became proud) and the promise that the serpent made to Adam and Eve came with a terrible curse: “Eat from the tree and you will be your own god.” (How many god’s i.e. Celebrities do we see each day in the worldly world or on TV and also in the church?!) In other words, the issue of pride is fundamental and MUST be dealt with.
On a practical note…
I am a manager at a store and required to wear a name tag, which also states my position (Manager). Many people come and ask to see THA manager… I take it that, not only do they feel because of the authority given to me by head-office, I have more “pull” to give a discount, or refund, or whatever, they likely also feel elevated themselves when talking with THA manager. (Psychology)
It would seem that it’s not much different elsewhere (i.e. Church, politics = “I had dinner with the major”…. etc.).
As a Christian, even if I am not proud, and my title was given to me, what does it profit me to cause someone to stumble? By wearing a title I might cause someone to take his eyes of off Jesus and look at ME instead.
Thanks for posting this important article.
————————————————————————–
250 voices Choir singing “Worthy is the Lamb”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gae-n0Pb7Q
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
The article pertains to taking on honor for yourself or displaying a self-proclamation/promotion via a title, which we all acknowledge is pride.
As for titles themselves, before tossing them completely, it might be helpful to note what the Ancient Hebrew Dictionary says about the Hebrew meaning of ‘name’–
“When we see a name, such as ‘King David’ we see the word ‘King’ as a title and ‘David’ as a name. In our western mind a title describes a character trait while a name is simply an identifier. In the Hebrew language there is no such distinction between names and titles. Both words, King and David, are descriptions of character traits. The Hebrew word for king is ‘one who reigns,’ while David is ‘one who is loved.’ Both of these words are titles, describing the character of David.”
When Jesus gives the overcomer a new name (Rev. 2:17), it will reflect his change in character. Jesus is the Name above all names, implying that names carry with them levels of authority.
quote If we are happy to blow their bubble, don’t blame them, were calling them by titles so don’t blame them!!!!
this occured to me as well. people exalt people. some will insist on a title even if you are not looking or wanting one.
the choice is between the lily and the daffodile. pride or humility.
then there’s false humility that sneaks in saying “i’m to humble for you to clap for my sermon, and do not call me pastor…for I AM HUMBLE” straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. lol. quite the knot we twist ourselves up in.
my keyboard is on the fritz. so the reason for lowercase letters.
Sharon,
I used to be over careful to not offend peoples feelings then I was shown a revelation(to me anyway).
Jesus Christ was NEVER personally offended.he was reviled,persecuted,savagely beaten and nailed to a cross of wood to suffer and die.Yet even then he was not personally offended.He forgave all those who did this to him and asked the father to forgive them too.
We have no business being personally offended even when persecuted by evil.We are less than we should be if we take offence at being corrected in Christ by a bother of sister.
Jesus tells us to deny self.There was not a single drop of self in him and this must be our aim for ourselves.
This is a ridiculous article. Paul was an “Apostle” and “Father” to the Corinthians, Peter was an “Apostle”. Christ is called the “High Priest”. The fact is we use titles, we have to talk, therefore we have to use titles which signify certain people and leaders in the church. The word “bishop” is in the bible, so is “deacon”. Lee Grady in not being a biblical “writer”. I’ve heard Andrew say he’s an “author”, is that not a title? Nothing wrong with titles- it’s the heart behind it.
Afarmer,
Interesting– the one who reins is the one who is loved, when they are put together.
It’s good to see a variety of insights. Might I suggest people read the full article by Lee Grady at: http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/fire-in-my-bones/32063-a-message-to-his-holy-highness-the-worshipful-bishop-rev-dr-apostle-grand-poobah
I think the whole article gives more accurately what Lee was trying to say.
Once again, we have what seem to be conflicting presentations of truth in the Bible. On one hand we see Christ in Matthew 23:6-10 saying of the scribes and Pharisees:
6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,
7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’
8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.
On the other hand we see that Christ, Himself, appoints some of the gifts in His Church to be “teachers” (along with apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastors) as seen in Ephesians 4:8, 11ff.
May I suggest that the dilemma can be resolved by looking more fully at the passages in question. If we continue with Matthew 23:11-12 we read:
11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
Christ follows these verses with his famous “woes” against the hypocritical Pharisees.
I believe it’s fairly clear that “titles” is what Christ is referring to and that pride is at the root of such seeking and use of such titles.
When we look at Eph. 4, it seems obvious that “teacher” (and the other 4) are “ROLES” which Christ calls certain individuals to fulfill. As we examine a number of passages in the New Testament we find the role of “pastor” to be used interchangeably with “elder,” “bishop,” “shepherd,” “minister,”and “overseer.” (Acts 14:23; 20:17,28; 1 Timothy 3:1-7; 4:6; Titus 1:5-7; 1 Peter 5:1-5 et al.)
So, there is a difference between “title” and “role.” Let us be careful not to confuse the two.
As one who has been called by my Master to the role of “pastor” or “pastor/teacher” (as some translations of Eph 4:11 put it), it puts me into an interesting position in such a discussion.
I do not seek to lift myself up by the calling He has placed upon me and it matters not to me if one calls me “pastor” (espeically those whom I shepherd), “brother,” or just simply “Wayne.” (I do prefer my wife not to call me late for supper, however – LOL).
I do not consider “pastor” to be a title, but rather a role or calling just as the Apostle Paul (funny how we often call him thus) identified himself by his calling (e.g. “Paul, an apostle . . . I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher . . .” 2 Tim. 1:1, 11).
I recognize that some on previous strings have been offended by my use of the identity I have given on this site and I have wished that it could be changed (is there some way this could be done, Andrew?)
As I have stated in previous strings on this topic, I have, in the past, been assigned the title of “Reverend” by men. After a number of years of proudly wearing that title, my Master spoke to me about it and and humbled me and me not to use it as there is only One who was reverend – and I was not Him. He told me to identify myself by the calling to which He had called me – to the role of “pastor.” Some may still be offended by that on this site and I will change it, if possible, if it causes my brother to stumble (again, Andrew, is there some way I can change my handle?).
Some in this discussion have argued that we should even avoid the use of “brother” and “sister.” The Scriptures teach that we are to love one another and that we ARE brothers and sisters in the Lord. Romans 12:10 (AMP) instructs us to “Love one another with brotherly affection [as members of one family], giving precedence and showing honor to one another.” I think there is nothing wrong with us “honoring one another” and showing “brotherly (sisterly) affection” by using terms of endearment whether they be “brother” “sister” or “pastor.” The church I grew up in the 1950′s and 1960′s called everyone “brother” or “sister” including the minister.
I’m not saying this has to be, but hopefully it gives us something further to think about.
I think Brother Pink’s comments above are excellent as well.
Your servant in Christ,
Wayne
This is a ridiculous article. Paul was an “Apostle” and “Father” to the Corinthians, Peter was an “Apostle”. Christ is called the “High Priest” in the book of Hebrews. The fact is we use titles, we have to talk, therefore we have to use titles which signify certain people and leaders in the church. The word “bishop” is in the bible, so is “deacon”. Lee Grady in not being a biblical “writer”. I’ve heard Andrew Strom say he’s an “author”, is that not a title? Nothing wrong with titles- it’s the heart behind the use of them that matters. Christ called Himself the Son of Man. Uh oh Christ is using titles here too.
From the past I recall when Bob Mumford said the brethern gave me a humble button but when I put it on they took it away.
speaking of humble love.
http://vimeo.com/32740340
Amen, and thank you so much.
Pastor Wayne,
Please do not change your handle. You are a faithful shepherd in my eyes.
Much as Paul learned contentment with much or little, we learn humility with a title or without.
I have to disagree with the fact that Jesus was never offended. He seemed to be VERY OFFENDED WITH THE PHARISEES! He called them snakes and vipers, and if that is not finding them offensive……and the very stench of their pride did indeed “offend” Him! Call it what you want but offensive also means offended! These ones seem to have all the tale, tale stench of pride like a foul aroma! Some seem actually worse than the Pharisees. As far as being brothers…….”not all who come to Me and call me Lord, Lord shall enter into the Kingdom!” “And many will come to me on that day and call me Lord…..and I will say to them….depart from Me ye workers of iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU!”
Good words Pastor Wayne.
I went back and read the entire article, Lee also had no problem with bible titles for those called to that work. Just warned of the pride, and all of us called out ones must keep on guard for that .
I’m always edified by all those who post.
That was an excellent article! At our Church we typically call the lead shepherd “Pastor” so & so but that’s it. I personally like to include this title because he truly is a loving humble servant looking out for the flock. For him I have no issue as he doesn’t give credence to the tile of “Pastor” one iota.
But ~ in looking around I’ve noticed this very thing w/people giving themselves grand titles & parading it. It’s easy to tell who is walking in the Spirit & who is not when you see the real deal in action. Unfortunately, some Christians may not have a great example to go by so they get duped by these fleshy people.
It’s so completely unbecoming. Ick. Makes me cringe.
Someone sent this video to me on FB today if you want to talk about perverse spirits & deception. One guy on there called it a blitz “Rave” Holy Ghost detox party. (You might want to get the ear muffs out & barf bag ready.)
Intensity Anointing (Religious Detox Tour) – The Happy Church
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BepWc5Udfb8&feature=share
It is my opinion that if they wear a title and encourage the people to address them by that title then they are insecure and or egotistical and it is about power and control.(MONEY)!
Can these self -appointed apostles,profits:) say like Paul I bare the marks of the Lord Jesus in there bodies?NO!Do they preach the Gospel freely as Paul had done?No,they wants hundreds and thousands to come to your church.
The false apostles and prohets brag about being honored guests of Presidents,kings and leaders throughout the world,but my bible says believers will be taken forcefully before world leaders and not as honored guests.When the persecution comes to the west will they still want to wear those titles?Ithink not.
As long as they can be apostle or prophet tickle your ears that is what they want.,not to be known as true evangelicals who lay their lives on the line
God Bless
‘Blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.’ – Luke 11:28
Dear all,
We are certainly called to expose the false apostles, teachers and preachers of the word, to preserve the doctrine and the sanctity of the body of Christ; and Paul does instruct Titus to rebuke the false teachers sharply for the purpose of building them up in sound faith. – Ref. Titus 1:10-14. But we should never forget the instruction of Christ Jesus for dealing with an offending brother. Jesus commanded us to deal with the offending brother one-on-one before making them a public spectacle. – Ref. Matthew 18:15-17. Bear this in mind that we are called to examine ourselves prior to correcting our brother. Jesus said, “Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye.” – Matthew 7:5. Dear brothers and sisters, whenever we take up the office of judging others words, deed and action, we should always bear it in mind that we are setting up ourselves for ‘judgment’. Scripture declares, “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the same measure you use, it will be measured to you.” – Matthew 7:2. We must always remember that everything we do is for the purpose of building up the kingdom of God and nothing else. Let alone those who seek after titles; for they will be called to account. But let us concentrate on the learning we receive through it. Jesus said that we all are ‘brethren’ in Matthew 23:8 though we have been assigned responsibilities. Those titles in reality refer to the work assigned than the position of a person in the kingdom of God. Therefore let us focus on our ‘CALL’.
Ponder on the following Scriptures: ‘And the Lord said to me, “Son of man, mark well, see with your eyes and hear with your ears, all that I say to you concerning all the ordinances of the house of the Lord and all its laws. Mark well who may enter the house and all who go out from the sanctuary. Now say to the rebellious, to the house of Israel, let us have no more of all your abominations. When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary to defile it – My house – and when you offered My food, the fat and the blood, then they broke My covenant because of all your abominations. And you have not kept charge of My holy things, but you have set others to keep charge of My sanctuary for you.” Thus says the Lord God, “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My Sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel.” ‘– Ezekiel 44:5-9.
Let us pray that we be found faithful in our call as fellow labourers with Christ Jesus.
Dear Mr Grady,
I am please to read an exloquesnt appeal for humility among the brethren. Thank you. Excuse me for being brief. Some of the comments use more words than your article.
War Horse
Corpus Christi, TX
Having been brought up a roman catholic, I am well aware of the status driven motive behind the hierarchical nature of the established church system. priest, bishops, arch bishops, cardinals, popes, penguins etc. It is sad but nonetheless unsurprising that the pride of man seeks recognition and position in this fallen world. However it took me long time to throw off an inferiority complex, even with the nuns and priests in my local parish church, where I was an altar boy, constantly not measuring up to their unflinching scrutiny in my ‘holy’ duties. I thought the order was established in heaven as on earth, since they were selected to a higher, holier position and only through many acts of penance could I hope to near their exalted level. As you can see from my title I have overcome all this now. But you can just call me Paul.
2 Corinthians11:13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
-Jeremiah5:27
As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
Jeremiah9:5-6
Friend deceives friend, and no one speaks the truth. They have taught their tongues to lie; they weary themselves with sinning.
Thine habitation is in the midst of deceit; through deceit they
refuse to know me, saith the LORD.
dream given by the Lord about the apostate/labels. It was some kind of big fancy house. I was inside and I saw like nobody was around. In one area of the house it was a glass pane doors as I could see through them. I was like
why is this closed off. I than realized they had the ac running and wanted to keep it cool/cold. I went in this door and saw a man on a stool on the phone. It appeared thats all he ever did was be on the phone. His girlfriend worked in another office as he sat out in the hallway. She was wearing a mini skirt and couldnt even remember what she was called to do. There were also sons and daughters and they were in other parts of the house, lower down. I than saw another office type setting at the edge of the stairs and across from her was another office. A woman named Ella. I opened her door and it was all fancy in her office. She came out. As I stood talking(listening to these two women, the one lady across from ellas office had little silver labels. That had different sayings on them. I saw one and it said holy ghost inspired, among other names written on little shiny pieces of silver colored papers. She was the one whom would hand these labels out if you were good. I didnt get one,lol.
These two women were standing around talking about the lady in the miniskirt-gossiping.
Ella than told me I needed to learn how to use the doors because I come in, in reverse.
As in I opened the doors in reverse.
The ac- wanted it cool/cold. They were not loving but rather cold/offish. Also the people who label and self ordain people. Those who label if a word is of the Lord or not- all works of the flesh, not led of the Holy Spirit. Self appointed-self ordained, Apostate-profane and not ordained of the Lord. The lady-Ella represents those whom are in a false authority and speaking to me of using the door in reverse, meaning not coming in the way they operate- traditions of men. The glass pane doors. To see spiritually through the deceit/false.
:False Offices…
People in “Authority” in the churches of today.
Ella means “other”, meaning another gospel.
Yup, the false is sure a whole other gospel and it is the one who is backwards.
Ella \e(l)-la\ as a girl’s name is pronounced EL-ah. It is of Old German origin, and the meaning of Ella is “other, foreign”. Also possibly means “entire” or (Hebrew) “goddess”.
This came up several times when I was looking up the name Ella-also means Salmonella.
the office building is the current corporate church system. Each person working has a manmade label….a plastic, not really silver (wisdom) label. They label themselves with pastor, teacher, evangelist, prophet, intercessor, and on and on. It is their job title. The reason they close off the Light to stay cool because the A/C is on, is simply to stay cool! Cool…you know, like we cool! we bad! Seeker sensitive, appeal to the world rather than conviction of sin. The Light convicts sin….don’t need any of that in there!
Dear War Horse,
Right on! Some us this to preach, not share comments and also to lead people to their sites. Many just skip over it all if the comment is longer than the article itself.
Joyce, you wont skip over something if you are led of the Holy Ghost and is leading and guiding someone somewhere, food for thought!
Hmmm it speaks to me of ‘pride’ also. I’ve been a christian 26 yrs now and had a lot of time to observe and think through all this kinda stuff …. if I go to a new church I dont hang around to ‘meet the pastor’ or feel ‘special’ if he or she talks to me, Im over it! They are just people like you or I. They put their trousers on one leg at a time just like we do, however God does tell us to respect them.
We need to honour our leaders like when the word tells about Paul and how he told the High Priest (not realizing he was the High Priest) “God will slap your face your hypocrit” and then someone corrected him and so he promptly apologized and quoted an old testament scripture about respecting your leaders. If the leaders are leading you in the way of Christ then follow their example, if they have pride…try and overlook it because heck arent we all guilty of that and we need to show grace and allow Him to work that out in them dont we? Personally it makes me feel very uncomfortable seeing pastors etc goofing off in their position and definitely makes me wary of what comes out of their heart and mouth and I feel for them because they are supposed to be serving us in the church not the other way round and they will be held accountable for this so I hope they change quickly. I just try and follow God’s word…people…well the bible says we cant trust them which is true and sometimes we cant even trust ourselves now can we, but we need to try and never give up on God who is continually at work in us sanctifying us and making us more like Himself.
Col 2:6 “And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow Him. Let your roots grow down into Him, and let your lives be built on Him.”
Shazza you said, “if they have pride, try and overlook it”
over look it???
not so,
Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.
Proverbs 29:23 A man’s pride brings him low, but a man of lowly spirit gains honor.
I attend a Bible Study at my local Seminary. The study is set up so that every few weeks we have a different teacher. The teachers usually hold a doctorate. The others who attend Bible Study hold doctorates or are seminary graduates. In fact, I think that I am probably one of the few who is uneducated. (Interestingly, they don’t hold that against me! :-)
They usually refer to the teacher as “Dr.” when introducing him/her or when directing questions during question period. (Often when the teacher doesn’t know the answer or feels that someone else might be more qualified to answer the question they usually defer to “Dr. So and So.”)
When group members address each other, they usually just use the first name (even when they hold doctorates).
These people have worked hard to get their education, and I certainly have no problems using a “title.” The thing is that it is just a title. I love these people for who they are as people. More importantly, I love these people because they love God. …and I know that they love me! :-)
The leaders set a high standard of excellence and show respect to all. It is a pleasure and joy to attend the Bible study.
In fact, I can’t believe that the Lord has show me such favor to study with these brothers and sisters–it is such a blessing.
Big titles with false faith is what these people have. I don’t believe it is all the pastors fualt or the person with the biggest title’s fault as much as it is the people who want a leader like this over them. The leader has just fallen sucker to what the people wanted over what God wanted over him and them. I believe this all comes from bad teaching or lack of good sound teaching. I have seen people that think like this because of what they have been taught through their denominational churches. Just look at the denominational church titles The First Assembly of God or the First Baptist Church of God or the first this or that. Why not name it the last days Church of? Why because not catchy enough or not important sounding enough. Today’s church people not only want important leaders over them but want leaders with bigger titles. Why because this makes them feel more important & more spiritual than their other church competitor. If you worked for the president of US or a big shot Governor of some important state this would make that individual feel important because they identify with that important person, office or business. All most all people do this in the world and now it is being done in the church. The truth is when you identify with Christ and who he is and what he is and how important he is in your life, it is then that you will not need a big shot over you or nor will you need a big title because all this is false importance in your life. The church people have taken this worldly belief in titles and are applying it in the church and are disguising it as spiritual. This is all coming from the people of God or church people who call themselves Jesus church. Anyone who religiously thinks like this is worldly and needs to repent and return back to Gods ways and teachings. I know I had to repent of this at one time and it was God who brought me down to get me to look up at him and not at a man. There might be some titled person out there saying who am I to say this and what is my title that I may say this and by what authority can I say this by? This is exactly why I am saying this my brother.
Personally it makes me feel very uncomfortable seeing pastors etc goofing off in their position and definitely makes me wary of what comes out of their heart and mouth and I feel for them because they are supposed to be serving us in the church not the other way round and they will be held accountable for this so I hope they change quickly.
I think this may be some of the problem. We tend to look to the pastors to continually minister to us. Not thinking that they fail as everyone else. They are neglected in many prayer closets, but expect to be found in theirs.
Maybe the leaders have simply wore themselves out because of a lack on ministry to them.
Some questions:
When was the last time you went to talk to your pastor to simply pray for them, and let the Holy Spirit speak through you to them? It would probably surprise many the result!
Minister to those who minister to you. Be a blessing.
I was recently on mission with a group of students from the Bible College where I was studying. We were reaching out to the community with various means of blessing the locals on the Council house estates, such as tidying people’s gardens, sweeping the streets, litter picking and holding a second-hand/nearly-new clothing sale at peppercorn prices. One of the ladies on the team, from Nigeria, said she was greatly offended that she had been asked to pick up litter and sweep the streets, as she was the highly esteemed wife of a Pastor!!! I nearly fell about laughing!!! I wonder if she’d ever read about Jesus kneeling on the floor to wash the feet of his talmidim!
I’m glad I am nothing – no title, no position – but known and loved by God Himself. What an honour.
The first shall be last and the last shall be first!
now the pastors want to be called “Doctor”, earned title or honorary. the trouble is that today pastors aren’t even “pastors”. they are supposed to be shepherds paid to care for the flock. most of them get a pretty healthy salary but don’t remain true to their main calling.
a shepherd should never leave his flock, and never go to minister in another shepherd’s sheepfold. “the good shepherd leaves the 99 who are there and goes to find the l sheep gone astray”. how many shepherds do that?
most are pretty comfortable and make few sacrifices for their flock. “Woe to the shepherds, for the flock are scattered”. at $100k a year, some of them don’t even bother to return phone calls and emails, considering some of the flock not worth bothering with. how many of them would make that much in the real world? it’s an easy living for many who are self-indulgent and lazy, receive glory and special consideration. very, very few of them could ever work hard enough in any other occupation to make that much money and then they don’t even do their jobs.
Yashua was refering to the false ones that set in Moses seat, they where not Levites nor did they follow the teaching’s of Moses who received the wordt from Yahweh, they followed mans teaching as he added and subtracted from the word for his own purpose. Also when Yashua said he came for the lost sheep of Israel he was talkin about those allready removed from the Northern tribes, proheticaly he is taking about us as the lost sheep as the tribes were scattered over the four corners of the world. Ya see the promise of Abraham to be as numerous as the sands of the beach and stars of the skys is us. We needed a shepard to call us, die for us, and then return to mary us back into his family!!!! Of course all can be grafted in that believe in him and serve him and follow his word.
I agree with Lee Grady completely. What I do is only effective if directed and empowered by the Holy Spirit. So it isn’t me anyway!!!
Joyce,
Jesus was never PERSONALLY offended.Pharisee’s had him crucified yet he FORGAVE them.There is NO offence in forgiveness.
When Jesus confronted Pharisee’s it was not from a position of personal hurt feelings.”These are not my words they are my Fathers”.Remember him saying that.
When personally offended these feelings come from self.We hang on to self at our peril.”Deny self,take up your cross and follow me”.
BoundinHisskirt: exactly! A man’s pride will eventually bring him toppling off his stool. Let’s leave it to God to work out, do you agree?
Jesus knew about priests,self appointed priests.They wear fine clothes,reserve for themselves the best seats,go by titles and
DO NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
They stop others from entering too.
Our Lord tells us this.Who are we to not listen?
I’ve seen pastors who truly are pastors in the sense that they are shepherds and are there when you need them and genuinely care and then I’ve seen the ones who can’t even come up to you to talk to you and you’ve been there 6 years!!!! (I did go up to talk to him by the way, and sent emails). And who really didnt give a toss about what you thought or even if you left!!! Anyway that’s in the past now, better get off that hobby horse.
Pastors have hearts that come in all shapes and sizes, with all types of motives and I don’t think we can lump them all in the same category ever, but I think it’s important to find one that thinks along the same lines as you and let them lead you, protect you and equip you and help grow you. Ultimately though Jesus is to be our leader, equipper, counsellor and protector and so much more. So my first port of call is always to His word and in prayer to Him
.
When the true shepherd is not to be found the sheep hire one for themselves.Sheep cannot function without a shepherd so they get together,have a collection and hire one.
Our Lord spoke about these shepherds.He called them HIRELINGS.
He tells us that hirelings are not true shepherds,that they care only for themselves and that as soon as the wolf is sighted the hireling will be gone.
Job7:2.
2: As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work:
John10:12-14,
11: I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12: But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13: The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14: I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
We must learn discernment.Those who cannot discern are fair game to both hirelings and wolves.
Is it possible to have a title and still be humble? If Christ was the Son of God and Paul was an apostle, are they now prideful having certain descriptions of themselves? It seems we’re so afraid of hierarchy that anything with a title is unacceptable- I like to call it “catholic phobia”. But of course, anything with a hint of similarity to the beast of catholicism can’t be true so let’s all jump on the band wagon of the “not title” denomination. Yes we should be humble, how is not using titles a sign of humility? No one here has been willing to address this.
I like to address people by the titles they choose for themselves, and use them almost all the time unless requested to cease doing so. I’ve been caled by a few titles as well, but choose not to use them, and ask others not to use them. “Brother” I can feel comfortable with, but most just use my first name.
I fully agree that taking up titles is a vain endeavour, and its own reward. As a servant (even of the Most high), what need of titles should we have?
Blessings to you all.
Well put – especially the last paragraph….
Fallen,
it is not the titles that are the problem.It is how we perceive men of title.how we respond to them,how we rely on them,whether we should trust to them,their understanding.
What are we to ‘make of’ someone with church authority who has a title?Does his title affect how we listen to him?trust in him?seek to learn from him?lean on him for understanding?
Should we ever find ourselves following man,any man,titled or not,we are in danger of Idolatry.
Natural man loves to be Idolised.He just can’t help himself.
I have a given title and letters I can write after my name.I used to use them all the time in my worldly work.I was known by these titles and letters.These are worldly matters and I now now that I must be not of this world.
This hierarchy and reward thing is the way in which the world operates.We must separate ourselves from everything worldly.We were rescued and brought out of Egypt.Saved by the grace of God.
If we have taken some of Egypt along with us then we must see it for what it is and give it to God.
TITLES
by Bill Harper
January 19, 2001
Please don’t call me reverend for the message I extend
For reverence belongs to only One.
And I’ll ask you not to bother evermore to call me Father
For you know that you are not my son.
I don’t want your adoration, that is not my expectation
As I speak the words I’m told to speak.
Please don’t help to build my pride for I know what’s deep inside
while I strive to keep my spirit meek.
As the cares of life I juggle it seems always that I struggle
The works of my flesh to overcome.
Spiritual fruit I want as mine, for it was God’s own design
When He took me out of where I’m from.
Though I once was very naughty, had a spirit that was haughty,
God’s grace has made of me a creature new.
Not my own deeds I recite, but the One who’s my delight,
For He’s the only One who’s pure and true.
I don’t want your fancy titles, don’t place me among your idols.
The praise of men belongs to God alone.
All earthly flesh will meet it’s fate, all that we think of as so great,
someday before the One upon the throne.
All who here are vain and proud, on judgement day will be so cowed,
Standing before God’s pure and spotless Lamb.
Where the high will be made low, and the meek will ever glow
Reflecting glory from the Great I am.
• And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was. So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He (God the Father) who said to Him: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You.” – Hebrews 5:4-5
• Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to a mountain by Himself alone. – John 6:15
If Jesus Christ did not seek for honor, we also should not; and if Jesus denounced the honor given by people, we should likewise follow His footsteps. People forget the fact that those who lift us up can also pull us down. Therefore, one should never put trust in the honor and position man can offer. Another thing we must take note of is that ‘authority’ in God’s kingdom brings in tremendous responsibility. Those who take upon themselves ‘titles’ as well those who are called into leadership must give an account for the souls under them; and that’s no joke. Therefore, Scripture says,
• “There is a time in which one man rules over another to his own hurt.” – Ecclesiastes 8:9.
• Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account … – Hebrews 13:17
daddy… daddy…
Just a little old lady playing… Jesus loves me… glad to be so…
Whatsoever you do to the least of these my brethern…
… you do it unto me…
Take up your cross and follow me.
Where did we leave him? Who… Jesus…
… to follow after men…
Lord have mercy
May we only run… after thee!
Nice poetry Bill and Michelle! :) I write christian poetry too! Not very good but it’s from the heart.Here’s one I wrote a while ago which kinda fits this topic…I just copy and pasted it from my facebook page:
Lord how did we slip,
plunging into deep green
slime filled wells
of false doctrine and teachings?
With seed-faith preachers
raking money across carpet lawns…
preying on saints
whose lustful eyes turned from a precious Provider
to precious provision.
Or cream satin clad Pentecostal bishops
bearing icy rocks set in gold
on cyanosis knuckles.
Idol worshippers warm his church…
hot money in the pots.
Chests of these doves
now puffed out proudly,
with peacock coloured
bishops smiling
on their T-shirts,
bought from the tables
untoppled.
Humanistic ideas
drape like lace from
Sunday morning’s message.
This pretty accessory
so appealing to the withered old man
that hunches over in cobwebbed pews
never dead,
in waters designed to drown.
Where O Lord have the lions of old
been caged?
A roar only heard far, far off.
Replaced with the scuttle
of a plain brown field mouse….
nibbling on the crumbs.
By Sharon Findlay
This poem is a result of me reflecting on the state of the church in this modern day we live in. Total despair! We have seed-faith tele-evangelists on TV ripping people off of their money, self-appointed bishops who produce rings and T’-shirts with their name and photo on and whose congregation idolize them like gods, and people in the pews who have never died to their old ways and consequently moved from their seats all their lives. The cry of my heart is ‘where are the christians that live the way God wants us to live…by His word’…which requires the courage and boldness of a lion, not the timidity of a mouse hidden in a dark corner of the house!
By their fruit you will know them, not by their titles.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
@ Derek Hale, you still haven’t looked at the issue I brought up. If someone uses titles you say they are worldly? Are you saying Christ was worldly? Are you saying Paul was worldly? What do you mean by worldly because Paul called himself an apostle? No one here wants to address the issue which I can understand since it’s easier to be in our little self-authoritative world. Who wants to be accountable to leader anyways?
When the evil spirits, and demons would call Jesus Son of God; He make them to be silence. Jesus refer to Himself as the Son of Man; to have a tie to us humans. What if Jesus called Himself, Son of God, the Holy one; would/could we think of Him as a man as we?.
There are churches that won’t give a ‘word’ from the Lord the time of day, if it doesn’t come from someone with a title, so sad.
Jerm. was told i hate it when one says; ‘thus says the Lord’, why? cause back then people didn’t want to be questioned if they heard from God or not, and wanted to be worship as being holier then others……………not much as changed in the human heart.
LG’s words are getting much better; B4 i felt a religion spirit on a few of his words………….not on this one.
There has been 3 different words given on this site; that i think stand out; 1. an lenghty one on rather we ‘need to be coved’ by churches, etc. 2. David W. word about 10days ago about no signs, then not plugged into the God of heaven (subtitle given by me); 3. this one.
Andrew that word about covering; is a cousin of this one. Could you ran them side by side?
these so called leaders are getting away with this because we think we need them; we think we are children and they are the parents, we think we can’t question them; cuase of their titles……..and cuase we want to be honored as they, so don’t want to upset the ladder we are trying to climb up………
we forget we have the spirit of God, the bible; ……………..oh that maybe it……..we don’t want to spend time in prayer, bible, speaking in tongues, worshipping in spirit in truth.
IF WE SPEAK OUT ABOUT THEIR SINS, ARE WE FEARFUL WE COULD BE FOUND OUT?????
IT IS E-Z TO BLAME LEADERS, HARD TO SEEK GOD, PICK UP CROSS DAILY, HAVE TO GIVE UP SELF.
IF PASTOR IN SIN; THEN OUR SINS AREN’T SO BAD, GOD DOES GRADE ON A CURVE RIGHT??
We are all worldly by nature,naturally of the world.We were born in Egypt,brought up in Egypt and lived as Egypt lives.We knew nothing else but Egypt.
Titles are used by Egypt to establish Hierarchy.When our Father identifies us by title does he see hierarchy?
Apostle,prophet,pastor,teacher,evangelist,healer etc.Is there hierarchy here?
I once heard a man speak who was introduced as Dr Soandso.A grand title given to a grand man.His doctorate was granted by a university.Did our Father establish this university?Did he send his son Jesus Christ to establish universities?
God speaks to us through the medium of His Holy Spirit.We hear his voice likewise through the same Spirit.The Spirit comes with GIFTS,NOT TITLES.Apostle,prophet etc are GIFTS.
Gifts are given by God not universities or seminaries or colleges,
Our Father spoke to us through the mouth of a donkey once.
Very humorous post, which speaks volumes. LOLOLOL
By their fruit you will know them not by their titles.
(I quote from Mario’s post)
We must be careful to know the true fruit of the Spirit.Many are very adapt at presenting themselves as Spirit filled.
2Timothy 3:1-5,
1: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3: Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4: Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS yet God knows them to be unholy.
Discern brothers and sisters,learn to discern.”The Holy Spirit will show you all things”.
At the Name of Jesus EVERY knee will bow, in heaven, on earth and under the earth.
King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Holy and Anointed One. Beautiful Saviour, Mighty God, Ever Lasting Father, Prince of Peace – King of Heaven and Earth –
The Lamb who was Slain, The Risen Saviour, The Lion of Judah – Alpha and Omega, Son of God – Son of Man – just a few of the titles for Jesus Our Lord -
I feel honoured to be nothing but a grain of sand on this shore and clay and let Him form me into whoever and whatever He wants of me.
Lord forgive us for our foolishness and our arrogance.
Who are you? Where do you come from? What are your connections? And credentials. And yes, covering. We humans like to identify people and mentally put together a profile of them. Modern Christianity so often accesses a ministry based on past success or a book written, few there are that would take the title “A voice crying in the wilderness” John 1:23. Neither Elijah or John and I believe any true ministry today will submit to titles, rather they will emphasize the message, “Make straight the way of the Lord”.
We don’t have sermons from either Elijah or John but its sermon enough “He must increase but I must decrease” titles and decreasing just don’t go together. The introduction of both Elijah and John was abrupt, they could not be accessed by human reasoning, no one could fit them into a category or connect them with what was known, they both came from the presence of the Lord. 1 Kings 17:1 and John 1:6 the fleshly mind could not get the measure of them but the humble heard them gladly. Neither needed a title.
In John 5:44 Jesus challenges those who receive honor from men, I know that’s only half the statement but to me it’s clear that such cannot believe.
Throughout Jesus’ life he was given various titles “Beelzebub” is one that comes to mind, on the cross the title “King of the Jews” bought ridicule and rejection. Midst the incredible suffering, body soul and spirit he forgave. Phil 2:8 says He humbled himself and became obedient unto death… Wherefore God has highly exalted him and given him a name… above every name.
Perhaps those who accept the titles and the praises of men would do well to consider the manner that God chose to exalt his Son and take up the cross as we all have been instructed to do. The cross includes shame, reproach. Luke 6:22.
I believe the day will come when the true prophet will show up with a message “Make straight the way of the Lord” He will come from the presence of God and probably via a wilderness, He/they will not adorn themselves to please men and their words will be without compromise, they will need no introduction by a network nor the approval of the schools of prophets. They will not receive titles and accolades from the religious. Their words will penetrate, cutting through the soulishness, sensuality and pride that has invaded the church and blinded the spiritual eyes with worldly ambition. Such will be persecuted but because they have been in the presence of God they cannot be otherwise.
John
It is so sad when you feel bad that you have not been addressed “Dr. Bishop, Rev, Ev. Prof..” and many African ministers have this problem.I have experienced disgrace when i addressed one “Sir”..I think Christ knew who He was and that never bothered Him at all. Hence, it never hindered His interaction with His people….When you are keen on the title more than the service, you would always want to be recognized. Titles make people shun away from you hence your ministry to people is breached..other people would love to be associated with big people in the long run miss on the impartation. Put your titles aside and serve the “I AM THAT I AM” This is the greaatest title have heard.
Hi all you there!
All those using titles and believing themselves to be big shots are not going to listen to us with no labels. So what’s the solution? Comments here won’t help either. Anybody out there who knows what to do about it? Is there anything that we can do about this?
Great posts, I am blessed. Wayne, thanks for that teaching. Let’s be crucified with Christ, not married to the world.
It’s interesting that all these guys with their titles never use them when theyre together…..only in the presence of “lesser mortals” !!!!
Know ye not that you all have titles?
Are we not called Christians and if so, does this not mean anointed ones?
Is that not a great title?
Why strain at a gnat and swallow a camel?
Give honor to all men and if they have a title then look at it as if it just so happens to come with them, and treat them the same in spite of it.
who gave you the title ? did Jesus call you by title or name?
are who man calls you, you call yourself, becoming one with tile calling job or are you who God has called you ?
this quibbling is intellectually pulling people into right vs wrong….proving the point to who? for what ? and why?
Humbly just look up and stay focused there…..
Your perspective is horizontal not vertical…….
Jesus said, “let the little children come to me, because for such as these is the Kingdom of Heaven. Anyone who wishes to enter Heaven must become like a little child.”
In fact, He said it even a little harsher: “ Verily I say unto you, except ye are converted, and become as little children, ye shall NOT enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.” (Matt. 18:3) One thing that characterizes a little child is that they are quite un-educated as far as formal schooling.
We can learn a great deal about our relationship (or desired relationship) with God by looking at our own relationship with our children. Little children, when they play and interact, do not care about the stuff adults worry about. They do not try to impress others. That all develops later on.
We are so busy focusing on people and trying to gain man’s approval in order to feel good about ourselves (insecurities etc.) that we don’t think about REALLY asking God how we are doing. We are forever trying to be loved and honored by man. Remember what the Lord said about when people speak well of you… (If it wasn’t a problem He wouldn’t have addressed it.)
“For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be a servant of Christ.” (Gal. 1:10)
You’ll never be great both, here on earth and also in Heaven. Where is your treasure, and who are you trying to please or impress?
The highly educated Paul, a Hebrew of Hebrews, after he was humbled by God and getting a new, “real” education (remember, he used to kill christians) said this:
“ And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom…
For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words…” (1Cor. 2)
Paul also said: “And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth.” (1Cor. 8:2,1)
Interestingly: At seminary they teach you how to make a professional presentation and an enticing speech.
Fact is, a simple (titleless) fisherman with a TRUE calling from God would not easily qualify for a position in today’s highly educated church.
Anyone who takes this topic lightly, obviously does not understand what the root problem for the use of titles the WAY we use them, is. It all goes back to the Garden of Eden when self-awareness and pride entered the human race.
Satan made a promise to Adam and Eve, a promise that came with a curse: “Eat, and you will be like gods.” In other words, you will be your own god, not needing God anymore and becoming independent. Ever since the Garden, mankind has indeed ventured to determine his own destiny, which was only enforced by satan’s scheming through Charles Darwin.
Let’s face it, titles are not merely used to identify a person or his role.
Man teaches man at schools and Universities where he acquires an impressive title.
God teaches man in the wilderness and in the crucible of His refining fire where all pride and self-sufficiency is burned away.
By their fruit you will know them, not by their titles.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
doesn’t the Bible tell us NOT to address anyone as ,Father,or Pastor, Or Reverend? Only Abba is that… I will not call anyone either ….
Shazza, let me just say this, the overlook comment you made is why the fallen and apostasy abounds more and more. We might as well pat all those on the back and say well done o prideful man.
1 Peter 5:5
‘God resists the proud, But gives grace
to the humble.’
Stepping on religious toes, perhaps. People whom desire titles/labels is saying look at me. I have new born babes in Christ, have a fear of the person because they think that person is some sort of high and holy person. People who like calling people by titles is rather sickening to me. It screams look at me. What fruit is their in that? uh NONE!
Even if the Lord divinely calls someone to a high place in Him. doesnt mean they will go spouting it off. To be raised up , is to be bowed low.
Satan was full of Pride lest we forget….
All these titles and names one day will not matter. It is not about us, It is about Jesus Christ, whom is worthy of Title, Jesus Christ, our LORD! For it is He is who is KING!!!
typo, I have known and witnessed new born babes in Christ
when i pray for people, i include the name of their gift if i know what it is. but it is rare that the same is used when talking about or with them personally..
How strange,
pray for the name of their gift? thats a new one to me?
I like your comments Mario, you seem to have good insight and a very balanced view of things to me.
I feel really ill when I hear christians talk about (and I must admit I’ve thought and said this myself in the past) how becoming a Pastor or worship leader etc is like what we should strive for in our Christian walk, you know like its the end product, the ultimate position, like you’ve become like what the pope is to Catholics! So wrong, such worldly thinking again. I especially hear it amongst young people at their youth group.
The end goal should be that we run the race to the end…that we seek God’s face and His strength to get through life not turned off the path through the false gospels and other deceptions out there and the effects of the world, and continually become more like Him to glorify His name. Glory to God.
if i know a person has a gift i lift them up to the Lord using the ‘title’ pastor len, teacher so-and-so etc, and then pray that the Lord will guide them to use that gift in accordance with His will.
BoundinHisskirt: ‘…why the fallen and apostasy abounds more and more?” It’s a sign of the end of the age no doubt, where sin multiplies and the whole earth groans under it’s weight. Where many will grow cold in their faith and turn away from God and therefore sin will increase. Where the world will not improve, but become like Sodom and Gomorrah. I once heard a message by David Pawson and he mentioned how he’d noticed that a sign of a countries morality declining was where homosexuality increased…what do you think?
And my point being that as sin increases so does pride…unfortunately in the church as well.
hi church!
i think a lot of the lincon driving apostles subscribe to charisma…pray that they see themselves and repent!
i agree shazza, letting it fester is NOT the solution– but try to remember not to just crush the folks with a big old mace when you see their pride–ask Jesus what to say and do–(i’m sure we all USUALLY remember…)
i have seen times when the Lord said “wait” and the judgement happened to the folks —and there have been times when i was told to speak—BUT having HIM do it i have seen Him use phrases that seem SO gentle to me— but crush—
Christ in us, the hope of glory—
otherwise i shoot my mouth off— and do not correct —or entreat as a father,
eh?
that said, i like a name tag telling me who the pastors etc are— and ushers etc—if it is a bigger congregation…
the levite left his linen at the temple, changed out to return to the world—
maybe name tags in the church are not horrible ideas– ( not silvery ones though! :)
pastor/preacher/etc————–is a great fish hook for the lost— like a collar—a “name tag” so the newbies can find you in a crowd—
yes–we DO have more important things to worry about— the souls of men —BUT we need zeal for His house too, and if our blinded brothers and sisters repented of these things ( while we repent of our own sins and areas of unbelief) we would see a greater harvest….”turn us and we will be turned!!!!!!!!!”
( sorry shaz—not implying that you did that—but i have done it—-)
Thanks for posting this important article. It saddnes me as I have observed so much pride, arrogance and entitlement among many title bearers. The most important thing that is missing is the fruits of the Spirit……the gift that is missing among those who finds it so necessary to exhalt themselves.
One has to remain strong in the Lord as we walk among these “wolves in sheeps clothing.” They are only concerned about themselves and not sincerely for the hurting and downtrodden lost or redeemed child of God.
May the Lord have mercy on us.
@Teshuva You had said,
“Know ye not that you all have titles?
Are we not called Christians and if so, does this not mean anointed ones?
Is that not a great title?
Why strain at a gnat and swallow a camel?
Give honor to all men and if they have a title then look at it as if it just so happens to come with them, and treat them the same in spite of it.”
This is a great point. Christians are called to give honor to whom honor is due. We are called to love all and not judge people who use titles. Know ye not that ye all have titles? Then why do you judge your brother?
Paul acknowledged his function as an apostle, but that is not where he found his identity, his identity was in Christ. It seems to me that the use of a title brings the focus on that individual. But if we, being led by the Holy Spirit , do what we are called to do without the use of a title, it puts the focus where it belongs, on the Lord. Philippians 3:3-11.
Laurie, you are evading the question and the facts. Paul called himself an apostle. Was he taking attention away from Christ in doing this? Of course not. The issue is more complicated than many here on this forum would like it to be.
We make things complicated when they are incredibly simple. Jesus IS LORD & we never say LORD JESUS, just Jesus. He has a title. We have’t got a title & we take titles to ourselves. It’s pride whatever you argue or try to excuse. IT”S PRIDE & EGO. Nothing else. Christians, stop blowing their ego bubbles, you’re supporting their problem
@Ian, you said
“We make things complicated when they are incredibly simple. Jesus IS LORD & we never say LORD JESUS, just Jesus. He has a title. We have’t got a title & we take titles to ourselves. It’s pride whatever you argue or try to excuse. IT”S PRIDE & EGO. Nothing else. Christians, stop blowing their ego bubbles, you’re supporting their problem”
Indeed, this an oversimplification of the issue. By your standard Paul was a prideful man and Jesus had an ego. You said, “we never say LORD JESUS, just Jesus”. Really? Jesus is referred to as the “Lord Jesus Christ” in the bible various times. I would challenge you to look deeper at the issue. Some things are simple, some things are complicated.
As I understand it Paul had a battle on his hands.Men had already entered the church with false doctrine yet claimed to be Apostles.
I find nothing but humility in Paul,he well knew his weaknesses yet he begins his letters reminding the churches that he is a true Apostle and prophet of God.
He was writing letters to them because he was not with them,he was working somewhere else for our Lord.I believe he was reminding the churches that he was appointed by our Father and to be careful of those who were not.
2Cr 11:5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.”
2Cr 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing.
Book of Jude Chapter 1.
1: Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2: Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3: Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4: For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5: I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8: Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9: Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10: But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11: Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12: These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13: Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15: To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16: These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.
17: But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18: How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19: These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20: But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21: Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22: And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24: Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25: To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
I asked the Lord about this issue of titles and of labels.
He said to me, that He is only interested in whether we are a child of God or an enemy of God.
Those things we are calling titles are but anointings and if one is truly anointed in that anointing then they realize who has the greater anointing which is He that gives the anointing, and will thus stay humbled and submitted to Him.
By their fruit you shall know them.
The anointing should flow and if it does not then it has been dammed up.
If one is an apostle then the only thing that should precede them is that anointing and not a flashy car and arrogant attitude.
If one is a Christian then one is also an anointed one, their apostleship could be only one of being SENT to a prayer closet and do things in secret where the Lord can reward openly. The reward may not be one for the person but whom they pray for.
There have been many times, in my own prayer closet that Father would place a face of someone before me that I did not know, and ask me to ask them what they wanted from Him, and he would thus grant it, making the prayer closet a POWERFUL place to be sent to.
I have seen in the prayer closet great declarations being made and healings coming forth etc..
I am happy that my OFFICE is one of the prayer closet, and I love to go to work and hear or see my BOSS/Yeshua everyday.
Child of God or enemy of God is all I ever have to look for when I meet someone.
Our Father meets us in the prayer closet.When we come together as we do on this site we have our Lord Jesus Christ with us,But our Father seeks intimacy with us,one to one intimacy and this only happens in the closet.
Jesus had no closet,not even a place to lay his head yet he never lacked direct guidance from our Father.Any solitary place is the same as a closet.
We must follow our master in all he said and did.
The understanding given to me of the nowhere to lay His head, deals with the fact of His mind and or teachings, as many would turn from Him and His teaching.
I used the term prayer closet but if you insist on picking it then I will say that I meet Him in the garden as did Yeshua. And if we want to go deeper that garden is within the confines of my heart and mind, where prayer and or praise is offered up always. we are to be that place where He can lay His head/thoughts/teachings.
More specifically, when I was dead to Him, He met me in the grave of my own thinking. I thank God He has the keys to death hell and the grave and no place is off limits to Him.
@DerekHale you said,
“As I understand it Paul had a battle on his hands.Men had already entered the church with false doctrine yet claimed to be Apostles.
I find nothing but humility in Paul,he well knew his weaknesses yet he begins his letters reminding the churches that he is a true Apostle and prophet of God.
He was writing letters to them because he was not with them,he was working somewhere else for our Lord.I believe he was reminding the churches that he was appointed by our Father and to be careful of those who were not.
2Cr 11:5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.”
2Cr 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing.”
Okay, now we’re getting somewhere. It was very important for Paul to use his title as an apostle to protect the sheep from the false apostles. Paul was completely humble, as you said, and defending his apostleship wasn’t wrong, it was good! So now that we got that out of the way, those who use titles should not be judged unless they are false apostles, false prophets or false teachers. In fact, those who don’t say they are “apostles” but pretend to be one is just as bad, if not worse than using the title. The big question is, who then is a legitimate “prophet”, “apostle” etc. Only those who have succeeded from the Apostles through the laying on of hands. Not self-proclaimed or even pretending-to-be “prophets” who have “prayed themselves to the office” in there closets with no known contact to the church of Christ. Paul even went to Peter and James after his damascus road and didn’t “do his own thing”. I would challenge all of you to think about this- particularly, who is the church?
Over the years I have seen one accusing the other, and it takes us nowhere. Instead of growing in discernment, we become the accuser of the brethren and help satan.
• Paul admonished Timothy with these words, “Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord, not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. – 2nd Timothy 2:14-17.
• Truly, ‘all Scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.’ – 2nd Timothy 3:16. But equally important is the application part of the word of God i.e. How we handle our work/walk?
Paul in his letter to Galatians writes, “Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself, lest you also be tempted. – Galatians 6:1 Paul is warning us to do everything in a spirit of gentleness (with right motives), lest we ourselves fall into Satan’s trap.
Andrew can we have this website being used to share revelations and insights given to us by God on Bible passages which you may choose. I would rather spend my time where I can grow, than in an environment where there is accusations and arguments.
There are wonderful people with knowledge and insights and with gifts, which will benefit each of us if we stop accusing one another. The Spirit of God operates where there is humility, love and unity. Come on now, It was the desire of Yashua that the world knows that we are His disciples by the love we have one for another. Let us focus on truth leaving aside things that doesn’t do much good.
Sheena John.
Its NOT about accusing.
It IS about discernment.
We should accuse no-one.We must share understanding so as to discern.
How can we discern correctly if we do not debate?
The church has false doctrine in it my friend.False doctrine entered the church almost as soon as true doctrine.Holy Scripture says so.God says so.
If we have false understanding then we need to find out and correct it.
Also, have you considered the words of God in Jude chapter one?
A question comes to mind. I wonder if these folks will want to keep their title and be addressed by it when that “lawless one” comes into power( 2 Thessalonians 2:8) and they start dragging Christians out of churches and their homes to be sent to detention/extermination camps or killed on sight?
Jeff
Sheeja,
This is the best place to find out ones growth.
He said I send you as sheep amongst wolves, be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
It is not how they treat you that you are accountable for but how you treat them.
I picture that one that is wise as a serpent coils themselves up and has their head where they can tuck it if someone tries to smash it, thus making them harmless as doves since they do not strike back.
It is when we are placed in these circumstances we can see our growth in how we respond, for if flesh is still in us then this is what needs to yet be crucified or burned in the lake of fire.
God ‘appoints’ them in the Church.
And I dare say most times
their not even believed to be such.
I too have grown so tired of all the high and mighty names.
I was on one web site forum where every one was either Apostles/Prophets, Pastors/Prophet etc….
And when I ask who of all the hundreds that were ministering in these Titles had the gift of Tongues? NOT ONE spoke up.
I thought that to be rather odd. But I was not surprised either.
Fallen, I do know that Paul called himself an apostle. In fact, I said as much. But I think there is a difference between saying” I am Paul, called to be an apostle, and saying, I am the Apostle Paul.
Dereck Hale, Teshua, Jordan Shepherd and The Dude,
Can we all agree to fast and pray and yield ourselves as vessels in God’s hand so that He can use us to accomplish His purpose. Each of us will be called to give an account of ourselves and not what others did. Lets decide to come together as a corporate body and decide on when we can fast and pray together for a particular issue. Let the Holy Spirit do His job. We are called to pray even before we open our mouth and do anything. It’s not by power, it’s not by might, but by My Spirit says the Lord.
Sheeja,
When do you wish to start?
Have you been shown a flaw in my character?
If so, please point it out that I may have it eradicated.
If I have offended you in word or deed then please accept my humble apologies.
I do not know who Dude is but if I have offended Derek or Jordan then please will you also accept my humble apologies.
Laurie, I think you bring up a fair point. Sure there may be a difference there- I wouldn’t think Paul went around saying, “Look at me, I’m the great apostle etc. etc.” in an arrogant tone. In fact he exposes the “super apostles” for having this attitude. The interesting thing to understand though is that in exposing these false apostles, he backed up his true apostleship. Remember, he stressed the fact that he was a true apostle. A title is only a word or symbol that signifies certain defining characteristics. Whether it’s cashier, accountant, mother, father, doctor etc. they are all titles. We couldn’t communicate effectively without them.
Teshua, I have nothing to say to anybody individually nor do I hold anything personally against you, but a word of caution to all. There is a spirit working very powerfully to destroy the body of Christ and to weaken them. We are called to guard ourselves againt that spirit which appears to be the spirit of light but is a deception. If ever you feel anything in your spirit especially about people, always wait and watch till you see a clear evidence of it in works/words. Bible says, ‘out of the abundance of heart the mouth speaks’. People cannot remain under cover for long. Their vocabulary and approach will reflect who they are.
Secondly, we do not create situations to test people, rather we are given discernment to understand things as and when it happens naturally.
Satan creates misunderstandings and enjoys when God’s children fall for it and fight. I will recommend each of you to watch the movie, ‘Facing the giants’ and pay attention at 1 hour 37th minute and 47-50 seconds, also at 1 hr 38th min. 44-53 sec. You will see the ‘mind control’ taking place there. I cannot begin to speak the things happening all around, I can only pray that God will sharpen our discernment. Also ponder on 2nd Thessalonians 2:4. Prayerfully read that verse and ask God to reveal what do ‘temple’ there refer to?
Sheeja,
In the first part of your letter above you say that you have nothing against me personally, then you speak of guarding against a spirit of deception, and then waiting for clear evidence of their works and words.
Yet I have asked you if you have found a flaw in my character that it may be brought to light and you say you have nothing personally against me.
You have called myself and 3 others out for a reason.
I have had dialog with Jordan, and respect him as a part of the body of Christ. I also hold him in great admiration for that which he has been through and to be so gentle and kind. He has brought a testimony forth of what was done to him as a child and then to see that he is not bitter, I find that marvelous and to be a work of God. Though we disagreed on a couple of points, I did not see where we disrespected each other.
He is welcomed at my house anytime.
As for Derek, we have had dialog but not in a personal way as have Jordan and myself. Yet, I also hold him in esteem as well and like his zeal, and he also is welcomed at my house. I do not know this dude person and have had no dialog with him.
This is my first time to dialog with you, and you bring me on the carpet, and so I ask what have I done in your estimation that I make restitution to whom I have offended.
I have shared some things that have transpired in my walk and life with Christ, as have they, yet without trying to dishonor one another.
So I am asking again, for which point do you bring correction to the three of us?
You have brought forth scripture reference of the son of perdition sitting in the temple in the place of God.
The son of perdition is the natural man which has not been reborn from above of the un-corruptible seed of God.
We are to be the temple of God, and the one of perdition with in is the one who will be removed from the throne which lies within man. This is the man that opposes God.
The Lord came to me in a vision and showed me the king, which looked like the king of a deck of playing cards. He showed me that He was knocking over this king from off the throne, like the god called dagon of scripture, that He, God may sit upon His throne within us. And this is the good news that Gods Kingdom has come that we can receive counsel from the King of Kings.
Blessings and peace to you.
Teshua, Pl give me your email id and I will speak with you there. Again, I repeat, I have nothing against you or anybody. I will reveal things to you on a personal level if you are unaware of things happening in pentecostal and charismatic churches. What Andrew deals with in ‘Kundalini spirit’ and related things is what I am indicating. If you have been at a pastoral level and above, there is a fair chance that you will understand. Don’t take things personally. About fasting and prayer I mentioned because we can pray corporately and take things to God than complaining about everything that is beyond us. I took your’s, Derek’s and Jordan Shepherd’s name because you responded on a personal note. I will not repond again on this issue here.
Wow! Praise God! All I can say to this is simply…Amen!
Sheeja,
May I ask for your e-mail address instead?
I am so glad to see Lee Grady exposing all of the “Emperor’s New Clothes” Kings of their own domains! The titles are just as foolish as the King in that story thinking he had clothes on when he was NAKED. And as reading in Revelations 3:17-19 the Lord says in verse 18b “I counsel thee to buy of Me…white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear…” I pray they SEE their NAKEDNESS before it is too late. I so appreciate the information shared here. It has brought me out of much darkness! Thank you to Andrew for providing this wonderful resource!
Andrew pl give Teshua my e-mail id.
Sheeja,
I have not yet received your address.
Actually, I have no knowledge of the Kundalini, and you would probably be best schooled in this from Andrew since he offers it on his site. Please know that I am still trying to clear my own garden of the CRAP trees of the knowledge of good and evil and cutting them at the root that they be cast in the fire. I want only to eat of the tree of life, and so I continue to cut a path for it. When one grows rapidly then the root needs to be deep that there is not a great fall when the wind blows with adversity.
My own tree reached a great height and when persecution came, I withstood it for a long time but eventually snapped, when if my root had of been deeper I would not have retaliated or allowed their winds to effect me. So here I am, nothing but a twig or new shoot, and asking to grow deeper into the ground instead of higher up. I have shared openly here at this site that which I feel The Lord has shared with me.
As for corporate prayer, we still need only ask Him what He would have us pray.
Be blessed and shalom,
Teshua, you can contact me at jjrssjohn@gmail.com
Let God’s Word, speak:
“For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men ( INCLUDING MYSELF, MY FLESH PRIDE)? For if I yet pleased men ( INCLUDING MYSELF, MY EGO), I should not be a servant of Christ.” (Gal. 1:10)
“For the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance (INCL. TITLES), but the Lord looketh on the heart.” (1Sam. 16:7)
(My emphasis added)
What will your Title be when you get to Heaven?
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Mario,
Finally went to your videos– nice job!
Sheeja,
I dropped you an e-mail–
Hi Mario.I hope its OK with you if I pick up on your last post.
1Samuel16:7,
7: But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
We have the very word of God in our Bibles and we have the Holy Spirit to “Show us all things”,so why can we not see as the Lord see’s?
2Corinthians3:14-18,
14: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15: But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16: Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18: But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Our hearts are veiled by God.Only a pure heart can see what God can see.To see what God can see is to have a pure heart.
The Spirit of the Lord brings liberty.Liberty to see what God can see.The Spirit of the Lord removes the veil.Belief in Jesus Christ brings salvation but to see what He see’s the Spirit must remove the veil from our hearts.
We are called to be changed into the likeness of our Lord Jesus Christ (verse 18).Hereby the veil is progressively removed.
Only a pure heart can see what God see’s and only a pure heart can see God.
Dear Sheeja John – As I have once said before, I like and respect what you write. I believe you also enjoy sharing the Gospel, regardless of the personal cost. I will pick up from your comments to Teshua and your invitation for group prayer, in my seeking to understand what your are intending to convey to me, also.
Teshua has articulated accurately and sincerely in her post of December 3rd, the spirit of our exchanges. In fact, I could not have put it better myself. (Thanks Tesh for your ‘open home/heart invitation.’ I reciprocate all that you have said. and note that you are an honourable person.
You mentioned that we responded on a personal note. Can I please say, speaking for myself – I respond to people using testimony because I seek to align what I understand of the word with what I have experienced, or how I live. It’s more about authenticating and validating my position rather than choosing to respond in a theological vacuum. Not that a pure theological response is incorrect, but much can be masked using this type of response in isolation to testimony. I am always open to anyone reinterpreting my understanding if those two things don’t align – I make myself transparent like that so people can see the spirit behind the person. That also has the added benefit of people being free to challenge or question my Christian worldview, something I understand that only 7% of Americans have studied, and the number is probably less for Australians.
As for kundalini warning (which you briefly mentioned) and the like, I viewed Andrew Strom’s video and had no issue with it. During the time this phenomena swept through my Church back in Canberra, around 1997 and perhaps a little before that time, 98% of people manifested something associated with this spirit. I was the 2% untouched by it all. Now, without going into how I processed all that, I would like to state that when I was first saved 20 years ago, I equipped myself with books in the first week, such as Russell Chandler’s “Understanding the New Age” and other booklets authored as part of the Ankerberg series, including the dangers of other occult movements. Shorlty after, reading about and understanding Gospel was my staple diet over the following five or so years.
I sense that you may have somehow picked up that I may have some attachment to new age spirit. If that is so, I find that remarkable. But then again, you may be discerning something, and I invite you to speak forth and I will not judge you or harbour any offense or resentment – that I can promise you, and any other person posting here. My first response will be to take it to the Lord. If you like, you are free to speak candidly to me at jordanshepherd@hotmail.com
Now, if all that I have just stated sounds like to you I am taking things personally, please understand, I am not. I welcome your input. I have nothing to hide, no reputation to protect, no status to maintain. I agree that many posting here have much to contribute and I have a way to go in my walk with the Lord, so am open to correction. I can say that each year I have been growing from strength to strength since 1993, and although I have been:
Slapped in the face by an apostle (he apologised immediately),
Had my warnings ignored by an apostle (he apologised publicly after 10 years), and
Falsely represented, by an ‘apostle’,
I still pray for all, including leaders in my own town and towns I have sojourned in.
However, the Lord is preparing His bride and there is a lot of purging to be done. Things cannot keep going the way they have been. People must learn to discern, be open to correction, willing to question, be free to grapple as they seek to understand, choose to love, be committed to prayer and walk closely with the Lord. People should not be expected to behave as automatons. Rather than just obey (Hebrews 13:17) people need to be persuaded by the truth, yielding to that, rather than to titles. Truth should go down deep and we should have personal ownership of what we profess to believe.
Above, it was quoted, “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account … – Hebrews 13:17. I will borrow from Beresford Job – “The Greek of the New Testament had a specific word meaning to obey and higher authority: hupakaou. It is used, for instance, both in regards to children obeying their parents and slaves obeying their master, and precisely means to obey someone because they are in authority over you. However, hupakaou nowhere appears in these verses in Hebrews 13, and it is immediately clear that we are again dealing with the issue of bad translation. The word which is translated twice here as ‘obey’is peitho, and it might help if we see some other verses in the New Testament in which it appears:
“But the chief priests and elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barrabbas (Matthew 27:20).” Also in Matthew 27:41-44, peitho is translated trusts, (He trusts in God). In short, the word peitho means “to persuade, to win over, to listen to, to obey. The obedience suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion.
However, in Hebrews 13:17, the Greek word is hupeiko, and does indeed mean to submit. However, it does not mean to hierarchical authorities such as wives to husbands or subjects to the governing authorities of their nation. THat is an entirely different Greek word utilised by the New Testament writers. Hupeiko rather means to submit, or yield, to greater strength, and is used of combatants. In a sense, that is what I guess some of us are doing here, but we must be willing to be pursuaded by the truth, and not just obey without any attempt to grapple and understand – that is my spirit. I have always sought to understand better. I am not attracted to argumentation for the sake of upholding my view, although I sure we all slip into this at times.
Rather than just obey, people need to be persuaded by the truth, yielding to that, rather than to titles. Truth should go down deep and we should have personal ownership of what we profess to believe. We should encourage a process that is characterised by humility and not hinder people as they seek to apprehend the truth.
Dear Jordan Shepherd, You are one of them that I found in these posts, as straight forward and with insights. You responded to my ‘rapture message’ and therefore took you name. Felt you could be a great resource with your kind of understanding. And about calling you for corporate prayer was because I sensed a genuine spirit within you. ‘The prayer of a righteous man availeth much.You are much more careful and cautious in your wordings and approach. I am not yet there, I need to mature in my communication. ‘ The quote from Hebrews was to highlight the responsibility of those who watch over us, that they will be called to give an account of everything that transpired under them, and the titles they used, if not given of God, will bring them under severe judgment. You interpreted it wrong. Hope I have given a satisfactory explanation to your queries. (I literally study the comments posted here).
Sheeja,
I now find myself in a position to make my apologies to you as I was thinking wrongly in that you were pulling us out on the carpet, or for even having the suspicion, when that was not the case.
Please accept my humble apologies.
Jordan,
I would like to say that you are awesome, however I would not want someone to think I am talking about you the man or even following that man. So I will just say that I see Who is in you and that HE is awesome through you.
Thank you both for the dialog. May we all glean from one another.
Dear Jordan Shepherd, I did not pick anything about ‘new age attachment’ from your posts. I was answering too many questions from the same floor. You are an elderly person in age and maturity, and to even think of correcting you after reading your comments was beyond me. Appreciate your correction and for bringing to my notice my carelessness. Hence forth, I will be careful in handling queries one by one. (By the way this current two posts gives a better perspective). Thanks again.
While this article has truth,particularly on the fleshy appointment or flouting of spiritual “titles” with worldy ceremonies etc.(which may have no relationship to what God has “called”),it lacks balance and goes off the other end!
God does not refer to them as “titles”but as gifts or callings to the body.In eph.4-11,”He gave some”,apostles and some prophets etc.”thou hast received gifts for men”Ps.68-18
To say or imply that we are to be silent about our callings for the most part and always just use first names or brother so and so is wrong and unscriptural.
In the spirit,we will not be drawing attention to ourselves when the Lord tells us to identify ourselves and He does do this.Some years ago,I would have spoken as Lee did.But the Lord gave me an assignment early on in which I had to speak to pastors of many denominational churches on the telephone.When I did not identify myself with my calling,He scolded me.My response was,they will just mock and laugh at it anyway.His response,which He then also thundered thru a prophet,was do as you are told and leave the rest to me.I did obey,but should not have fussed with the Lord,in my soul about His clear directions.
“I,Paul a servant of Jesus Christ “called”to be an apostle”Rom.1:1:”I,Paul called to be an apostle..”1Cor.1:1;”I,Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ…”2Cor.1:1;”I,Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God…”Eph.1:1;I,Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ..”Col.1:1;”I,Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our savior..”1Tim.1:1;”I,Paul,an apostle of Jesus Christ..2Tim.1:1;I,Paul a servantof God and an apostle of Jesus Christ..Titus 1:1;”I,Peter an apostle of Jesus Christ..”1Pet.1:1;I,SIMON Peter,a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ..”John referred to himself as the elder in 2John and 3John.
Need I say more?
Jesus is into callings and the gifts He has given to the body thru them.He is also into identifying them in the ones He has given them to.What He is not into is fleshy man ordained appointments or the flouting of them for vainglory or attention whether God appointed or man appointed callings.Balance is important in all things.My calling is apostle and teacher and I do say so when required but I dont have a website,big sign on my car or a placard or business cards.I am ready to give a testimony of my calling or experience when it is required by the one who gave it.God Bless you
The above comment makes some pretty good points. I also agree that there is truth in Lee’s article but he goes too far and is unscriptural.
It can further be stressed that Paul called himself an apostle in scripture, and defended his true calling. Therefore, bearing a title or calling isn’t wrong in itself. The point in bringing this up though, is to stimulate thought on who bears the true calling of God to lead the Church? People who consider themselves appointed, or those whom the apostles themselves appointed? For whoever would choose to consider the issue.
Blessings
Dear Sheeja John, Your explanation is crystal clear, and thank you for persevering. I find your insights also a great blessing to me. I have committed to pray for people on the post/JTBTV site – David Marsh put out an invitation recently to call others to do just that. I find that a blessing. I apologise for misunderstanding your intent when calling us to prayer. Also, in my enthusiasm for Hebrews 13, I posted without prefacing an explanation – I was simply sharing on that interpretation, not responding to a perceived interpretation on your post. You are 100% correct, the quote from Hebrews does indeed, as you say, “highlight the responsibility of those who watch over us, that they will be called to give an account of everything that transpired under them.” That is a sober reminder. THank you for those kind words on age and maturity, although I chuckled a little on elderly age, as I am still in my 40′s . I appreciate your response and acknowledgment and admire your humility. I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say.
Dear Teshuva, I value your appreciation of what we pour into our posts. In so doing, we catch a glimpse of God’s patience and mercy. And all that we do, be it unto His glory. I so long and prefer to speak to people in the flesh. I was grieved back in 1995 when attempting to speak to people via written speech on the internet; I only received short, shallow responses. Consequently, I withdrew from any significant written speech on the internet from 1996 until a few months ago. All this from someone who read a total of two books by the time he finished school. Truth is, I didn’t engage in conversation with people until I was 16. I had no confidence and no contribution to make before that time. All I could do was to interpret music. I love the spoken word, but three very loud and unmistakable words the Lord spoke to me in the late 1990’s were, “Letters are important.” To that I write, always mindful that we are accountable for every word we utter. Death and life is in the power of the tongue. To God be all the glory. Yes, let us continue to glean from and share with, one another.
Dear Dale, you do indeed raise some good points for us to ponder. It is indeed the spirit in which things are done. We can be confident of who we are in Christ, and with a heart to bless and serve others, our calling/gifting should contribute to the strengthening, encouraging and comforting of believers with whom we share and have fellowship with. It seems to me that some ‘leaders’ have callings and some have a vocation, preceded usually by some formal course or study. I would dearly love to see more Christians encouraged in their calling/gifting, by those who have truly been called, so that Christians may be edified and ultimately equipped to serve God and bless people.
I am interested in your words: “His response, which He then also thundered thru a prophet, was do as you are told and leave the rest to me.” I would like to hear more about what transpired here, at any time you consider appropriate. Also, I would be very privileged to hear more about your calling to the function of apostle and teacher through your testimony and/or experience. If you like, you can email me at jordan.shepherd@hotmail.com or simply post, if you like. I understand it is getting close to the end of the year, so I can exercise patience and wait for your timing. God bless and thank you for contributing.
Derek Hale wrote:
Hi Mario.I hope its OK with you if I pick up on your last post.
1Samuel16:7,
7: But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
We have the very word of God in our Bibles and we have the Holy Spirit to “Show us all things”,so why can we not see as the Lord see’s?
2Corinthians3:14-18,
————————————————————————
Thank you, Derek. I believe you hit the nail…
If we would have spiritual (God’s) eyes to see and discern,
we would truly sense a person’s SPIRITUAL (not man-made!) qualifications to, indeed, be a pastor, prophet evangelist, etc.
They would not have to tell us or wear a title stating that they are an Apostle. We would simply know…
Again: “By their fruit you will know them”, not necessarily by their title, as we have seen with many who call themselves this ‘n that, and who have even deceived many who are still babes in Christ and falling for lofty titles.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
A general understanding or call it perception among the Christians/so-called Christians of today is that the role of an ‘apostle’ is to beat down people, demand respect and give orders. They believe and expect the elders to be very authoritative by nature; yet take note of the vocabulary of apostle Paul in Romans 12:1: ‘I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God..’ Apostle Peter too, offers a very different perspective about the role of elders in 1st Peter 5:2-3. There he exhorts elders (apostles, prophets, pastors…) saying, ‘Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by constraint but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you , but being examples to the flock…’ . Our Lord Jesus stooped to wash the feet of His disciples. I pray that these be our standard and reference for our life and dealings.
Nice job evading the issue friends.. A lot of people refuse to talk about the issue because of the possible implications, which I can understand why. Blessings.
Wonder if things are supposed to be established more like the locusts.
Pro 30:27 The locusts have no king, yet go they forth all of them by bands;
They are called exceedingly wise.
Except there should be only one King.
Mario: Im hoping my title when I get to heaven will be “good and faithful servant.” Gotta run the race to the end and remain faithful in the small things daily. And boy, it doesnt sound a lot, but it certainly is a lot some days… and I fail on a regular basis. Thank you God for your wonderful grace xxx