“ICONOCLASTS” – An Insightful Word
-extracts by Robert I Holmes.
“Where, O where is the prophet? Where are the incandescent ones fresh from the holy place? Where is Moses to plead in fasting before the holiness of the Lord?… the one with a terrible earnestness, the one totally otherworldly.” – Leonard Ravenhill.
Ravenhill’s words are reminiscent of a podcast I was listening to on my way to Sydney… It was a communication from the Banff Leadership Centre in Toronto Canada titled “Iconoclasts” outlining the role of men and women in organisations who shake things up. They gave this definition of iconoclast: The breaker or destroyer of images or idols set up for veneration. A person who attacks cherished beliefs, traditions, institutions and error…
This idea, this concept of shaking the house, shattering the idols,
attacking cherished beliefs is very much the life blood of
Christianity, of early Christians and indeed, draws from their long
heritage as recipients of faith from Israel. Peter, in describing his
fellow believers said they were “sons of the prophets” (Acts 3:25) –
for Peter faith meant being like the prophets of old…
This is the church, as sons of the prophets. This is the Christian
following Jesus the prophet. They are…
-An iconoclast: standing for truth; standing against tradition.
-A forerunner: out of step and out of season.
-Solitary: but not a loner or a loose canon.
-Rejected: but without a spirit of rejection.
-A recoverer: to bring things back to wholeness.
-Unbalanced: extreme but not staying out there.
-READ THE FULL ARTICLE-
http://www.stormharvest.com.au/library/latest-in-library/2328-iconoclasts
BEWARE FALSE PROPHETS.
What do you do when there are no churches no house groups no people who even have an inkling of this?
What do you do when you know this is the truth and God made you for something but now you cannot Hear Him and you were never sure what you were supposed to do?
My whole “christian” experiance has been gota leave that church gota leave this group cuz they dont do it right, I WISH BEFORE I GET GROUND UNDER THE SATANIC GLOBAL GOVERNMENTS BOOT! I just wanted to be a member of a real family church filled with Jesus and life, but I am always outnumbered and outgunned and compromised I am the BIGGEST hipocrit, but I do not want to see millions burning in HELL even my family am I selfish because GOD gave me my family to love? I want them saved I want to be saved but more importantly I wish we knew how to live the way we are supposed to.
Is it hard sure are there a million forces against us? sure, but I need help someone come on? tell me what to do IF THIS IS THE END SOMONE ASK GOD WHAT I SHOULD DO?
If you do not have that answer you can save all your well meaning advice, ethier you heard GOd or you didn’t.
An iconoclast: standing for truth; standing against tradition.
A forerunner: out of step and out of season.
Solitary: but not a loner or a loose canon.
Rejected: but without a spirit of rejection.
A recoverer: to bring things back to wholeness.
Unbalanced: extreme but not staying out there.
ANd I like how these articles break it all down,like you are profiling us or something? how do you know who God uses? He could use the batsh it crazy catwoman to do HIs will it’s up to HIm.
Sadly, though, there are tens of thousands of some time church-goers who use just this argument as a justification for standing on the outside, sniping away, but never getting involved or committed. The NT knows nothing of the ‘stand-alone Christian’ which is such a commonplace today.
Come and join us. Come and work through the challenges with us. Come and get your hands dirty. Come and make a difference.
This article was based on Moses. But Moses ‘led from the inside’. The true iconoclast puts himself in the line of fire – often at heavy cost to himself. Please don’t think that lobbing hand grenades into the camp from outside is being iconoclastic. It isn’t – it is often just being proud in your own self-rightness.
Jesus though, got down on his knees to wash feet. And that’s where I need to start.
I think that if you look at the majority of the prophets in the bible, you begin to realise that by the sheer nature of the message they bring, the hand grenades Keith talks about in the comment above automatically alienate the prophet from inside the camp. It is not the prophet who is too self-righteous or proud to serve within the camp. It is those in Christian Leadership today who in their own eyes can’t do no wrong, because they feel they have been given authority from above to do and undo as they please. When confronted by the prophets, rather than listen and consider their message, they immediately alienate and reject them, very much in the same way that Jesus himself was rejected because he did not come to tickle ears but to shake things up amongst those who thought they knew it all already. They knew so much they couldn’t recognise our Lord and Saviour as He was standing right in front of them. It is very much the same thing with prophetic voices in the church today. They are like the lepers of old, outcast and rejected, seen as poison that contaminates the rest of the congregation with their negative messages and calls to repentance. Not the best selling tool when you are triying to increase your church attendance to the hundreds or thousands.
Of course prophetic people suffer from pride too and have to fight it daily because the revelation they experience and the fact that they are forerunners and ahead can fill them with a sense of superiority or self-righteousness. No one is saying prophetic people are without sin, far from it, but as sure as the sun rises up every morning, prophetic people have a very special calling which not only carries immense power and revelation, but also a heavier cross carried internally which many Christians out there cannot even begin to imagine. As they experience God up ,close and personal, they also come against the powers of hell up, close and personal and fighting demons and principalities in their own personal spiritual journeys and development is a daily occurrence, and don’t you let your guard down or you can be eaten up alive in an instant.
Trust me, prophetic voices are called by God and not something men will walk into lightly. It is only those who have truly been called by God to carry such a message that will actually make it, because this calling is relentless, sacrificial, and utterly discouraging at times and lonely most of the time.
Trust me when I say that if indeed the prophetic voices of today were welcome in the churches as they should be, Christianity today would have a different witness to the world and not the shambles we call Church today. But fear not, casting God’s prophetic voices out of churches is hardly someting that will deter God’s bride. His spirit flows not matter what men do and His voice is still heard very much outside churches, despite the efforts of men within them to keep prophetic voices under their thumb.
Thank you for letting me comment in your space.
God bless you
Mercedes .
I liked this article. I don’t think it was advocating throwing grenades from the outside and not even sure what that means actually if you’re talking about correcting sin or confronting it. The Church is not the enemy. Actually that’s the hard part about perceiving His holiness and standing up for it. It wouldn’t be so hard if we were on the outside and just didn’t care, and it wasn’t our own flesh and blood being assaulted. Jeremiah wouldn’t have said some of the things he said if he ENJOYED telling them – look you’re all going to die. But he had to say it, and boy were they ever glad later when it helped them to understand that God really hadn’t abandoned them or lost control.
I’m just saying. I’m – among other things – so tired of feeling like the enemy just because, no, I’m not going to play that stupid game and pretend like everything’s okay when it’s really not. God knows my heart. I thought this was awesome. And I am involved/committed at Church but, yes, not as much or in the same way as other believers and this kind of thing is why – because you can’t always do both. Even if I’m not the best at showing it, God only knows, I do genuinely care a lot for the people around us. But that’s just it, I care for all the people, a lot, not just the proper by the book ones with agendas.
Sorry, I thought that was great, thank you for sharing.
An excellent article on prophets. It puzzles me today why there are so few active prophets at a time when the world can’t sin enough to satisfy itself.
Mercedes, I praise the Living God whom I serve and obey with all my heart for your comment!
Are there any other ears to hear that word? Many believers are not ready for the true apostles and prophets the Lord is preparing to send out into the nations. The harvest is truly near and when the truth goes forth through His chosen vessels many hearts will be pierced, many will persecute them, but many will believe and be saved!
The Lord spoke and told me: “I The Lord Will Save A Great Multitude”
To Him be the glory, honor, and praise, forever!
To Keith I would say Moses led from outside the camp in the tent of meetings far outside the camp.Exo 33:7
Jesus surrered outsde the camp.Heb 13:12
We are told to go outside the camp bearing his reproach.Heb.12:13
Jesus is shown to be outside knocking in Rev.3:20
The common thread in these three accounts is the people of God were defiled and God was calling for their repentance.
The church of Laodicea thought they were in great relations with God but were full of pride.Jesus said of them “I will spew you out of my mouth”.That is what I would call being outside the body of Christ.
As far as I understand, that when it comes to prophets we should look at the fruits of their lives, God can speak through anyone even when they have fallen, all depending where their hearts are at…
The other thing is, the gift of prophecy believes and loves and edifies all who serve Christ in and outside the church. When it corrects it’s in love and utter humility not from a perfect living before God.
I can’t stand rejection, it’s too hard… but God walks with us all, and works so gently within us that we overcome..
Thanx Jesus – that you are streching time for us all to be saved, and thank thatt we can not save ourselves..
Love all you guys
Wow, superb and much-needed article, Andrew. It can be so easy to just go with the flow and become comfortable with the familiar. Thanks for the reminder that the God we serve likes to shake things up, break what needs breaking, and fix what needs fixing!
I have been asked to leave by many leaders. Usually when God gave me a dream or message that was not welcome ( to the leader, not to the group).
This is the first article that I believe makes the prophet calling look practical. On the practical side, very few believers understand people who have a prophet calling. Few churches have a true place for a prophet.
The last two churches I was at, first accepted me. Then as God began to speak about healing changes to individuals and to the group, they began to ignore me. So I had to decide to leave or to stay and be ignored. Well, God began to tell me to get to know individuals in the church.
For four years I was engaged with individual believers who accepted the words God gave me on an individual level. It was healing for them and healing for me. It was growth for me.
I see that each prophet needs to search with God for his healing place and his growth place. Today, we have no school of the prophets like we have schools of Pastor/Shepherds.
Perhaps because there are just not as many prophets. Only a few prophets in the OT.
Sadly I think that part of the problem is that so many “Ministers of the Gospel” I use that term loosely. The calling of the Gospel has gone from a “calling” to a Livelihood. They depend on the Gospel to pay all the bills.
The priesthood that served in the temple, they served on rotating basis ( 24 divisions of priest that worked/served in two week periods and all served at the three main feasts Passover, Pentacost and the Feast of Shauvot/Tabernacles ) a good example is the father of John the Baptist was serving with his division and it fell on Him that one time in his life to burn incense as part of his normal service of offering sacrifices ( the Levites did not offer sacrifices only the sons of Aaron the priesthood ) .
The rest of the time they did other things to provide a livelihood. Farmers/Shepherds, etc. The did partake of the sacrifices and the tithes and offerings. Far too many Pastors or minister “work full time” in the Gospel. Serving at the whim of Church boards or denominations. Even Paul worked as a tent maker as well as an apostle.
So when you have to have a popular message to keep your job as pastor or sell your books, tapes and videos as a “Prophet” to pay the bills, you can’t afford to preach the truth. Today we have “popular prophets preaching and prophesying only prosperity and peace, peace. Instead of calls of righteousness and repentance.
Speaking of Truth when was the last time you heard the truth taught from the pulpit about about working on the Sabbath – One of the most broken commandment of the 10 commandments by almost all Christians, The commandment is repeated twice Exo 20 and Deut 5:12. Yet the truth gets twisted as a day to worship on, rather than working, playing or shopping/buying/selling on Saturday the Sabbath.
It is a lot like another recent message, of titles in the church – when was the last time you meet some that introduced themselves as John the Painter or Fred the Garbage man or George the mechanic?
We have strayed so far from the truth, we have lost much of the Saltiness and light of the world. Is it any wonder that we followers of Christ are held in contempt by the world. When it is so hard to tell the difference between those that are of the world and those that claim that are not of this world.
Most pastors worry about job security and their “retirement” (another unbiblical concept – even the priesthood that stepped down after age 50 continued to serve as mentors and still worked.)
-Selah
The article is true. A true prophet is not welcome in a “charismatic” church. Despite the word of the Lord through Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 to “let the prophets speak two or three,” charismatic pastors will not let a true prophet speak because the pastors are afraid they will lose control of “their” church to the Holy Spirit.
The article starts off with a quote from Ravenhill: “Where, O where is the prophet?” There are 7000 more that we do not know about. They HAVE spoken and they will yet again speak, in God’s time.
Years ago, I tried to count the number of prophets who are named in the Bible. Seems like I counted about 35 (and more who are not named). But then there have been some prophets who have NOT spoken (Acts 3:24); i.e., not spoken with words but with their life.
God always has a remnant. Just as He prepared Moses for 40 years, God is preparing deliverers (plural) as stated in Obadiah 21. But they must be prepared, because it will take a mighty manifestation of the power of God to move the true Church world. And God does not allow His power to be manifested through just anyone.
The kingdom of God is not in word, but in power (1 Corinthians 4:20).
Today we have many speakers and even speakers of truth, but that is not sufficient.
one day when i was complaining : why me..why do i have to see what i see and know what i don’t want to know.
i heard i need a point person , a landing plce here on earth to know what i know and see what i see and join with me here on earth as i am in heaven and pray with me so the spiritual atmosphere can be readied for more of ME !
OK…. i redirected my focus….and am still trying to stay the course… ( btw- i fail daily !…..my batting average is low… not EVERY thought or monologue is immediately taken captive…but i do get help……i am trying to stay out of my court of judgmental self with my advocate anger pleading my case and heaping condemnation upon all )
As I was reading this article, it brought to mind Genesis the Signs and Seasons. On Dec 10 this week we will have a second Blood Red Moon this year and to me it seams that it is a warning for The Judgments that David Wilkerson talked about in his book The Vision on page 30. The local Pastors just view it as another event from my conversations with them. It reminds me of New Zealand before the big quake and then Japan this year. It seams nobody wants to hear about disaster at their doorstep or that we are about to see the Millinium shortly. I am labled a Physcio and Hillbillie .
Years ago when Dickson Dam was being built, I already knew that it would cause damage to the Red Deer River Valley but then I had NO idea that it would be part of a big Judgement to hit North America until I was allerted to David Wilkerson’s book The Vision by this site. Wilkerson was on TARGET when he wrote that book back in 1974. Andrew you are accuate about the Time of Pruning.
I live about 1,000 feet higher than the floor of the Red Deer River Valley and feel sad that the people in the valley will have only 3 hours warning when Dickson Dam breaks, Red Deer has only 30 minutes warning in the valley.
Yesterday was the 70th anniversary of the Bombing of Pearl Harbour and it seams the whole world is the night before as we look at events.
Keep up the good work you are doing.
Good words Kathe, thanks!
Excellent piece…..Not a *fun* calling, but not one that a person can’t easily disobey either! There is a sweetness and a bitterness in it. I found this to be a real encouragement. Clearly not about being a *loose cannon* or a loner taking pot shots, but about people who carry the burden of the Lord and who find His word like a fire shut up in their bones. Thanks for posting this!
“An iconoclast: standing for truth; standing against tradition.”
Actually, no. Historically iconoclasts stood against the truth and killed those who stood for the truth. A little research in Church history will lead you to that conclusion.
The ones who supported the use of icons were the ones who stood for the truth. The Muslims killed those who thought otherwise. Check out for yourself.
In view of Fallen’s post, I have posted a short brief on the church history concerning the Iconoclast and Iconodules. It was originally posted on the forum with markups. Unfortunately when I tried to post on this thread, I used the ‘markups’ blockquotes, strong etc with documented links to justify this post. If you desire to research the links then go to Iconoclast verses the Iconodules or click here http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/bbpress/topic/3079#post-54099
Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any. They that make a graven image are all of them vanity, and their delectable things shall not profit. They are their own witnesses, for they see not, nor know that they may be ashamed. Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing? Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together. (Isaiah 44 verse 8 thru 11.)
The Byzantine emperor Constantine the fifth, and before him, his father Leo the third, were both energetic forces in trying to rid the Church of icons and statuary. In 754, Constantine V enlisted 338 bishops from the eastern churches and formed the Council of Hieria. They were called iconoclast because they attempted to abolish the veneration of icons, which they rightly saw as an offense to the Commandments of God. The council of Hieria described themselves to be in the successive order of previous Church councils as the seventh ecumenical council. However, according to the canons of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church, the five patriarchs or their representatives were suppose to be in attendance at any ecumenical council for it to be valid. Seeing that none were present at Hieria, it gave the iconodules, the saviors of idols, the excuse to vacate the Hieria council rulings, which was done in 787 at the Second Council of Nicaea that now was deemed the official Seventh Ecumenical Council.
The Second Council of Nicaea in their opening paragraph, begins its affront to the iconoclast with the following statement that begins to speak of the Catholic Church’s hypocrisy, even when acknowledging the truth.
“The one who granted us the light of recognizing him, the one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, etcetera.”
If our Lord Jesus Christ has redeemed us, the church from the insanity of idolatry, why then is the declared visible Church again cloaking her self in the darkness of the same abominable sin of idolatry? In the Church’s self described infallible tradition, the Council proclaims that the iconoclast are duped by the enemy, speaking of the devil, and then state, speaking of the iconoclast:
“they abandoned the” true line of reasoning”, and setting themselves against the tradition of the catholic church, they faltered in their grasp of the truth”.
Then the Council of Nicaea delighting in its ecclesiastical privilege to be the sole interpreter of scripture, erroneously uses Jeremiah’s prophetic rebuke to the nation of Israel, proclaiming:
“Many pastors have destroyed My vine, they have defiled My portion”. (for the truth see Jeremiah chapter 12 and verse 10 in context ). “For they followed unholy men and trusting to their own frenzies they calumniated the holy church, which Christ our God has espoused to himself, and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols”.
No doubt, the Catholic Church in the “true line of reasoning”, must have seen clearly that the unchangeable Holy, Holy, Holy God has despised His own Word, voiding His everlasting decrees for humanity, and decided to have erected in front of Him, other gods, even though they be little. It then logically follows that in the church’s “true line of reasoning” that all of the saints in heaven would have their own fellow icons to intercede for them before the Infinite, all knowing and merciful God. Alas, in “the true line of the reasoning Church”, both East and West, the infinite and loving God never should have sent His only begotten Son into this sinful world to be our only Mediator before the most holy God through the propitiation of His righteous blood for our sins and death, after all we have our idols and friends of our idols to mediate for us.
The Word of God, Jesus Christ, answered the Pharisees and said unto them, “Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines, the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do”. And He said unto them, “Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition”. (Mark 7 verses 6 thru 9.)
The Second Council of Nicaea’s declared anathemas concerning holy images.
1.If anyone does not confess that Christ our God can be represented in His humanity, let him be anathema.
2.If anyone does not accept representation in art of evangelical scenes, let him be anathema.
3.If anyone does not salute such representations as standing for the Lord and His saints, let him be anathema.
4.If anyone rejects any written or unwritten Tradition of the Church, let him be anathema.
Although I am anathematized many times over, through the specious traditions of men, nevertheless armed with the Sword of the Spirit, it is our absolute contention that the veneration of the icons and saints gave place to satanic entities, enabling their philosophical darkness to be intertwined into the affairs of the Church, and crippled her claim to be the visible, one, holy, catholic and apostolic church that Christ would have founded. The historic results of the Roman and Orthodox Church’s rebellion against the Word of God and His Righteousness, reveals the repercussions of their faithlessness, eventuating into Church schisms, and the catastrophic loss of lives throughout the centuries.
A short synopsis of the incriminating historical events is punctuated with the Great Schism of 1054 and the splitting of the Church into Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. In the midst of the ongoing confusion of the churches of East and West, the Roman Church with the urging of Pope Urban the Second, initiated in 1095 the beginnings of the Crusades against the Saracens, where deaths, rapes and other atrocities against the civilians were committed on both sides. Then in 1182 came the Massacre of the Latins in Constantinople, perpetrated by the schizophrenic Orthodox citizenry on their fellow Christian Catholics. Then later in 1204, the Roman Church, in its confusion over a new Crusade into the Holy Land, sacked Constantinople, the seat of the Eastern Orthodox Church, thereby finalizing the schism of the west and eastern church. Eventually in 1291, the Roman Church withdraws from the wars in the Holy Land, following its failure to maintain any possession of the land of Israel, leaving the land of Israel in the hands of the Muslems. The incessant demonic confusion, with sin’s violence in the forefront, does not stop, but continues with the Roman church’s threats, torture and slaughter of unknown thousands of souls in the various inquisitions of the middle ages. Of course the rift in the visibly schismatic, one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church expanded with the reformation, leading to the many splintered sects of Christianity. From then until now, the loss of life is staggering, and the hands of the harlots and daughters of the harlots are a washed in the blood of humanity, with confusion being rampant in all of Christendom. Like the schismatic mothers of the Roman Church and the Orthodox Church, so go their daughters of protestation, all the while the demonic enemy is cloaked in allegories.
Robert Glenn
We are not called to be popular,we are called to rejection.
1John3:1-13,
1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3: And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5: And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11: For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12: Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
13: Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
1Peter4:10-19,
10: As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
11: If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
12: Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14: If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15: But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.
16: Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17: For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18: And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19: Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
I have read history on “Iconoclasts” and in what I have read they were those who wanted to take the veneration of statues and images out of the Catholic church. They pulled down statues and images, etc. They wanted to “purify” the faith.
That is the historical meaning of “Iconoclast” that I know.
Bless you!
Andrew Strom.
What else can it be but the last days where all sorts of things seem to be happening in churches that profess to have the faith, the truth, the knowledge, the spirit, prophesy, healing, speaking in tongues and come up with all sorts of terms, names and new ideas.
In short we have so much to offer yet not make any impact at all.
There seems to be so many preaching here to each other when they should be telling the world.
Hey, go tell your neighbour who lives next to you what you know about the bible, tell your work mate, tell the checkout counter salesperson; people you get to meet everyday in the streets.
What are you doing here? Probably confusing others who already believe.
Stop hiding behind this blog under false pretences to show off how good you are, how knowledgeable you are about the bible, go teach the muslims, the hindus, the aethists, the satanists who are out there.
Go on, stop wasting your time and talents, go tell just one new person who does not know the bible today.
Here’s the best part: You are probably the reason why they don’t want anything to do with Jesus Christ. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
I enjoyed reading this article and some of the interesting history quoted in the articles. The religious spirits seem to like it too LOL – just saying…
Andrew, FYI, the icons that the early church were defending were not statues or engraved images. The early Church already taught that statues were not appropriate in the Church. The Original iconoclasts came before the Catholic church existed as a separate entity.
God commanded Moses to have images of cherubim on the ark of the Testimony (Exodus 25:22). To say that images in themselves are wrong is taking scripture out of context. I would suggest anyone who thinks that way to do some research. Moses was also commanded to make images of cherubim in the curtains of the Tabernacle. It’s not as simple as we’d like to make it out to be if we’re honest with ourselves.
Robert Glenn, The early Church was not foolish. They knew the difference between worshiping an image and honoring the person in the image. The article you posted doesn’t do a good job in defending iconoclasm. Too many presuppositions without references and taking scripture out of context. Do you have pictures of your family in your house? That is how the early Church saw icons- with respect, remembrance and charity. A little more research in Church history may help you further understand the heart behind the defense of icons. Blessings.
Watch out, this subject is going to confuse believers a whole lot of people into jesuit teachings, fallen is a likely candidate. Look at where this is all leading.
The earthly tabernacle is a picture of the true tabernacle in heaven where cherubs and cherubims exist.
Fact is the jesuits have infiltrated the protestant movement for a long, long time, with their teachings, that’s why you have the church in the condition it is in today, wait there’s more coming, soon there will resemblances of the catholic church in all the churches, just a matter of time.
Dear Fallen,
One of the defenses the Iconodules point to in Scripture, is in the fiery or bronze serpent that Moses constructed in obedience at the Voice of God. The children of Israel in their desert travels, once again spoke against the Lord and Moses, and God sent the venomous serpents into the midst of the tribes of Israel, and many of the people were bitten and died. The people repented of their rebellion, and were instructed to look unto the lifted up bronze serpent so that they may live, and so they obeyed and the affliction was lifted. (See Numbers 21 verse 5 thru 9.) The constructed fiery serpent was a symbol of the sin that represented Israel’s rebellion against God. And Jesus said: As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up: That whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3 verse 13 thru 15.) Jesus, Who knew no sin was made to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God. (See 2nd Corinthians 5 verse 21.) Israel’s self idolatry and willfulness against God was depicted in the icon of the fiery serpent, even as all of humanities self idolatry with its fullest depravity and rebellion against God was laid fully on the Son of Man and the Word of God, Jesus Christ.
But again, the Iconodules foolishly accuse God of breaking His own second Commandment when God instructed His Jewish people how to construct the Ark of the Covenant, the tent of meeting that is also called the tabernacle, and then later the temple in Jerusalem. In each case the imageries were of a type that is symbolic of God’s Holiness. With the Ark of the Covenant, the pair of gold Seraphims were set in a position showing obeisance to God’s Mercy Seat, depicting symbolically the heavenly Seraphims, who cry holy, holy, holy as they would be worshiping ceaselessly the Infinitely Holy God in His Sanctuary.
It is one thing to obey the Voice of the Word of God, but another to become a law unto ourselves so as to change the dynamics of the law, and to make the Personal Word of God of no affect. But whose accusing voice do you hear? It is impossible that Holy, Holy, Holy God would be under any accusation or reproach from His Commandments, for they were given to man through Moses to show mankind that they are under condemnation of the Law because of their vileness towards God, the Lawmaker and final Judge of sin. Their usefulness having presently ended, the brazen serpent was destroyed by Hezekiah, the temples were destroyed by the pagans, and the Ark of the Covenant is not to be found. When Jesus Christ came to redeem us, we became the temple of God, supplanting the need for the others, therefore, the people of God are to be led by the Holy Spirit of Truth, Who confirms the Word of God as Truth and leads us in the narrow path of the Lord’s righteousness, and not on the wide path of destruction.
Robert Glenn
Graven images of the type that cause “veneration” or “praying” to statues, etc – these are the ones that are very wrong. Clear as day.
Bless you!
Andrew
His Infinite Majesty, Holy, Holy, Holy God Almighty has not changed, and neither has the Magisterial strength of His Law.
“Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I AM the LORD thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and keep My commandments.” (Exodus 20 verse 3 thru 6.)
“I AM Jehovah, that is My Name: and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42 verse 8 (Darby.)
“Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any. They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; for they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed. Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing? Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together.” (Isaiah 44 verse 8 thru 11.) </em
In spiritual actuality, if one of the least of the commandments (Decalogue) is violated then all have been violated: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2 verse 10.) And Jesus the WORD of GOD says in that authority: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven”. (See Matthew 5 verse 18 thru 19.)
Robert Glenn
When speaking of the men of God doing the work of God, often not appreciated by others, it is not wise to imply the man of God doing the work God predestined, as a fool involved in self will.
Thank you Andrew, it is good to have ears to hear, especially not what we are thinking, but what the man of God has said.
David @ Gethsamane, What are you so afraid of? If you have the truth, than you shouldn’t be afraid of questions. The questions or issues brought up should only strengthen your faith. And if I’m wrong somewhere, it would be an opportunity for you to correct me.
You said,
“Fact is the jesuits have infiltrated the protestant movement for a long, long time, with their teachings, that’s why you have the church in the condition it is in today, wait there’s more coming, soon there will resemblances of the catholic church in all the churches, just a matter of time.”
Have you thought of where all protestants originated? Your faith is actually originated from the Catholic church. The reformation caused the split, but everything that Martin Luther and the reformers knew about God and how to live a Christian life came from the Catholics. I would encourage you not to be afraid but to seek the truth.
100% accurate
And exactly what Art Katz said also.
Art absolutely understood the prophetic gift.
Actually what Martin Luther taught and understood, DID NOT came from the Catholic, it came from the Word of God.
There is no religion or denomination that can twist the words of Christ and the apostles, and build on ANY other foundation than Christ.
It is His way, or the apostate (harolt) church.
Our choice.
After the confusion comes the poison, in true jesuit style.
This is the sort of debate that edifies no one except the carnal “self” and the sort that can go on and on.
The truth can stand by itself.
So what are we, catholics now? Like a dog that returns to its vomit.
You have so twisted the topic and fall..en.
Oh and let me guess now, Luther died a catholic, the pope is not the anti-christ and his 95 thesis was for the protestants.
This article was “God-timed” for me and while I appreciate the sentiment and agree with the beginning, I have some issues with the end.
I noticed at the beginning of the article Holmes uses a lot of scripture to back his conclusions, but toward the middle and end he quotes from other authors (who do not cite scripture for their claims) and not scripture.
We need to be very careful we do not attribute too much to the gift/calling of prophecy. A prophet is not an “all-in-one” just as a pastor, teacher, or elder is not a one-person show. I do not understand the claim a prophet works on recovery, or is unbalanced in the extreme. Neither do these have scripture to back them. Stick to the Bible alone. Stick to proclaiming truth in love (truth motivated by love). Truth is at neither end of the spectrum. It is not a prophet’s job to make people listen or take action, or coordinate a recovery mission, it is only their job to give a message.
It is also easy to fall into cynicism (a personal struggle of mine) as well as pride and self-righteousness to combat the pain of being rejected so often. Be wary not to categorize a prophet (maybe yourself) as being “closer” to God than another. God uses all Christians in different ways. Hearing from Him in unique ways does not inherently mean you are closer (aka “better”, “more spiritual”) than someone who does not.
Mrs. Luther , you are soo right on about what you said about Art Katz. I knew him well. Left us too soon. :-(
Loved this artical. I walk in the prophetic and I have to pray for more strength and boldness to accomplish what God would have me to say and do.
Satan rather than revealing his true identity chose to speak through a serpent (more cunning than any of the beast of the field that God had made) to Eve in the Garden of Eden. There are too many satan’s servants in the churches today. They never reveal their identity but operate under various titles, attacking the servants of God from behind the veil. They are too afraid to reveal their own identity, and their end is destruction. Like serpent they will eat the dust all their life.
True servants of God are unafraid to speak up and don’t need a cover up. And if they fall by ignorance, they repent and God enables them to stand up. Remember, David was known as a man after God’s own heart and that truth remained. God’s chosen ones will stand to their feet to shake all that needs shaking. Be prepared to face it.
Great article, very refreshing to me. Interesting commentary, thanks!
Well said Loura: “We need to be very careful we do not attribute too much to the gift/calling of prophecy. A prophet is not an “all-in-one” just as a pastor, teacher, or elder is not a one-person show.”
Correct. We are the body of Christ, each doing their bit. Churches of all sorts, like human nature, will elevate gifted people to an unhealthy status. THis is extremely dangerous. I have seen people shipwrecked in their faith for doing just that. Perhaps that behaviour is actually the precursor to venerating or iconising that saint after he has died. I emphasise, please be cautious of this and do not become captive to, or a party to, promoting a “cult” following. So many CHristians live vicariously through the gift/calling of the standout leader, robbing themselves of spiritual maturity. I have witnessed five fold ministers bedazzled by others’ giftings. It has far reaching consequences for the children of God.
“Hearing from Him in unique ways does not inherently mean you are closer (aka “better”, “more spiritual”) than someone who does not.” This is true. Tragically, the lack of this type of counsel in CHurches has been detrimental and hindered the saints in growing in discernment. Leaders (not all) have unwisely put such men (prophets, etc.) in a spotlight which sends the wrong message to the body. A leader once did that to myself and after a couple of weeks I told him to cease. Each part does their role/function, to edify, strengthen, encourage and comfort, the body of Christ (1 Cor 14). Knit together in love, speak the truth in love.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
A Lamentation is flowing out of the Throne of Grace.
A Lamentation is also flowing from My own heart.
O My Bride, My Bride how you have forsaken Me.
My Bride, My Bride how you have strayed.
Why have you chosen another in My place?
Why have you not seen Me for Who it is that I am.
I am from He who is I AM.
Yes, a Groom. The Savior, The Kinsman Redeemer.
Why have you forsaken to come to Me for your cleansing.
Is My sacrifice thus been in vain?
I love you with and everlasting love.
A pure love from He who sent Me.
This sentiment is for all ages through all eternity.
But you have strayed.
I would have you next to Me in your rightful place,
but you have not seen fit to come to Me.
My Father would have you come to Him for your communion,
but you would not hear My voice speaking out.
How long must I strive with you in this generation?
How long will you turn your face from Me?
I have strove to gather you for protection,
But you have gone your own way.
You have stumbled and you have fallen
You have brought to nought all I have said
For I have spoken to this generation in parables of old
Through the parables of old have I spoken,
Through the Words of My Prophets I have spoken forth
By the Words of My Father have I spoken
I have said to repent of your ways and come to Me
But you have not heard
I have plead with you to come to My Fathers Throne of Grace
Only through My spilt blood of redemption
You have set up a false god in your own imaginations
You have in your vain pride stripped your access to the Father
Why have you turned your face from Me?
Why have you not seen Who I am?
Why are you stubborn in your own mind?
And yet, still I plead. Still there is sorrow.
But this sorrow is turning.
It will turn to a Righteous Indignation.
Even now, the stench from the saints is rising
It does not honor My Father.
It does not please My own soul.
There is a Judgment coming unto this generation
It is coming and has been loosed upon them
They have been warned, and have been pleaded with
But they only throw the stones and only mockery is heard
You will know Who it is that I am before I turn My hand away
Before it is finished you will understand
You will then come back to Me for your cleansing
And understand how to know The Father
The very heart of the Father is shown in Me
I speak nothing but what the Father says
I do nothing but what the Father would have me do
This is true, and I am THE MEDIATOR between you and HIM.
I am the Name above all names. I will come again.
We will set up His Kingdom here on this earth,
and My government shall have no end.
Joint heirs with Me, yes, you will be.
But I will be the King over all kings,
and our Father is God of all gods. He will not share
His GLORY with another. For He is HOLY.
I have all authority, but He is all authority.
This is the sadness felt within. A despair for My lost.
They will come back to Me through the judgments
For I will bring unto them ashes so they will know beauty
I will bring mourning so they will know My joy
I will then anoint them with oil,
and spread a table in the face of their enemies
My Bride will trample on serpents and scorpions
The venom will become null and void
I will bind up their wounds, and I will come unto them
They will worship My God in spirit and in truth
They will once again come to Him with a pure heart
As the pride is burned away as chaff in the wind
Humility will then rule the day in the life of My Bride
They will fight their battles, and their power will contend
They will overcome the tribulations with the oil of joy
Provision comes on the wings of praise to The Father above
I will give unto them the spirit of Truth
I will give unto them the spirit of Faith
I will give unto them the spirit of Righteousness
I will give unto them the spirit of Peace
Just as I have given unto them Salvation
I am the whole armour of God, for I am the Word of God
I am in My Father, just as He is in Me
Just as I am in you, and you are in Me
You know the Father because you know Me
The Father knows you because you know Me
I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life
You have come to the Father because
you have come through me.
I am His only begotten Son.
I am His Christ who came in the flesh
I am interceding at His right hand
I take away the sins of the world
All those who come to Me I will make clean
Come to Me My Bride. Do not tarry, for the hour is late.
Your Bridegroom is calling. Fill your lamps with My oil
My oil of gladness will never cease.
This is the oil that cannot be touched or taken away
I anoint you with My oil of gladness, My Beloved.
For you are precious to Me.
Our Father holds you in high esteem
And He calls you His Own
No matter the road left to tread
No matter the darkness still ahead
No matter the giants yet to fall
Overcome by My blood and your testimony
Come back to me My Bride.
Come back and be made Holy..
My only comment is what the Prophet Isaiah said……………Here as I, send me!
“Watch out, this subject is going to confuse believers a whole lot of people into jesuit teachings, fallen is a likely candidate. Look at where this is all leading.”
I think that it might be better to look at where it has already led many protestants..
How many spirit-filled believers embrace, defend or observe these catholic/jesuit doctrines of men and ….?
ChristMASS (and erecting an Asherah tree/pole in your house and placing gifts before it re: Jer 10:1-11)
Sunday Worship replacing the Sabbath ( and doing your own will on the Sabbath).
teaching the Dietary laws were abolished – (one foundation of being a People Holy to the LORD your God (Deut 14:2 and 14:22 bookends of food that you may eat and may not as a people Holy to the LORD your God)
Replacing the feast of the LORD and adoption of other pagan holidays and traditions. Replacing Passover with easter and eating a Pig to celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus. The “iconic and traditional” easter Ham and Christ-Mass Ham. If anything we should eat a lamb to remember the birth, the Sacrifice and Resurrection of Jesus (“behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the World”).
apologetics and arguments that the Law/Torah was done away with and replaced with the New Covenant
Replacement Theology and other antisemitism in the translation of the scriptures.
Did the death of Jesus on the Cross, make an Animal which will eat Dung (“poop”) suddenly redeemed and no longer an unclean animal (Pig)? No!
But if this is your answer; then how can the sacrificial altar of the Third temple become an Abomination and desecrated by an Unclean sacrifice?
-Selah
Just want to let you know that I’m not Catholic, and that I don’t support the Catholic church. I do support the early Church established by the apostles though-Catholicism only pretends to be that Church. Grace to those of you who think I’m serving satan. I bless you and don not curse you. With love.
David @ Gethsemane,
You said, “The truth can stand by itself.” The statement you made is not biblical, my friend. Have you read Paul’s epistle to Timothy?
Paul says that the “Church is the pillar and ground of the truth”. I Timothy 3:15 The truth does not stand on its own, but in the Church of the living God.
Blessings, JT
Fallen – When people ask what I believe or what sect/denomination ( when people look to put a label on you or put me in a box). I call myself pre-denominational or pre-orthodox/catholic church. I grew up in a Charismatic Church among Prophetic people, I am filled with the Spirit and flow in the Gifts, yet I have had to sift my doctrinal belief to line up with the Word of God. To remove the doctrines of men and demons. I am shocked at some of the doctrines and traditions that I have believed and even defended in the past.
I think that believers embrace much without verifying it against the truth of the scriptures. I think that we have great need to be like the Bereans of Acts 17 searching the Scriptures to see if the things being taught are so.
I just had too many questions and got too many of the verbatim knee jerk responses to many of my questions. i.e. the 10 commandments and working on the Sabbath ( Seeing that the Sabbath was the 3rd thing the LORD blessed in Genesis and that HE rested on the Sabbath, that in Isa 66 that after the New Heavens an Earth all creation will worship the Creator on the Sabbath but hearing that the Sabbath was changed by the Church Fathers and other reasons/responses. I found alot of the apologetics that get parroted came out of catholic doctrinal defense after Martin Luther, they went from being resisted by protestants to embrace by them.
I had a choice believe man or believe the written word of God.
Jonathan, I don’t think it’s possible to be pre-denominational and non-orthodox at the same time. If we look at the word ‘orthodox’ it is made up of two greek words- “ortho” which means correct and “doxa” which means glory or worship. To be orthodox means to have the correct glory and worship that is intended by God. The early Church was orthodox. Blessings to you.
Fallen-
Great points – I was referring to the group that calls itself the Orthodox church and the Catholic Church. Just as Catholic means “universal” which I think is part of the problem with ecumenical and seeker friend churches of today that do not preach the truth and repentance lest they offend someone.
Your point about Orthodoxy is spot – about correct worship – I think that in a lot of what I call “churchanity” – We have lost the fear and respect in worship. We have this familartiy and what a friend we have in Jesus – this buddy buddy perspective of the Awesome King and Creator of the Universe. We see many examples of proper worship of being face down in Awe and Reverence. Yes hands lifted in Worship is a form of proper worship – yet this is the form that seems to prevail in the Church. Jesus said in John 4 that true worship is in Spirit and Truth.
Yet most believers reject the Truth of Torah and worship God as we see fit in our own eyes. So much bad teaching about the Torah or “The LAW” as it is disdainfully referred to is propagated. The Prophet Malachi even reminds to “Remember the Torah of Moses” ( Mal 4:4 ) That little verse is overlooked and left out of the often quoted vs 5-6: Mal 4:5-6 “See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. (6) He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.”
We have Forerunners; that are running ahead leaving part of the message behind.
A lot of people that hold to the teaching that “law/Torah was done away with” are shocked when I share that the writer of Hebrews quoting the Prophet Jeremiah. Miss three very important things:
(1) Who the Covenant was going to be made with: two groups of people The House of Israel AND the House of Judah (Heb 8:8 and Jer 31:31 )
(2) that HE would put HIS Torah (law) in their minds and write it on their hearts. Yes TORAH (Hebrew word of Jer 31:33). Which if it was done away with how could that be possible or necessary?
(3) that the New covenant is coming to pass – it is not in full effect yet it is transitional and that it is not a “New” covenant rather a “renewed” covenant much like every month we have “re-New-ed” moon.
Chesed V’Shalom (grace and peace)
How timely are God’s ways. I am so comforted by tthe fact that I am not the only one crying out for the ears and eyes of the church to be opened to hear and see. The scripture that comes to be repeatedly is ” there was a famine for the Word of God in those days” A now word I believe. My flesh is discouraged, so long since the word I bring is received, no matter if it be spoken in the spirit of mercy and tenderness, no response, no word of assent, to its power to bring His church out of the tomb and into the resurrection life He died for. I have great wrenching sobs as I write this, my heart aches as His Spirit grieves for those sitting in pews thinking is this all there is, who don’t know the authority and power they have been given to stand and crush the head of the enemy through His Spirit. I live in a large rural city where in some churches. noone is allowed to prophesy let alone a prophet speak. So called prophets visit and the spirit of fortunetelling begins to manifest. Nothing changes, the people are asleep. Many have callings and ministries and the leadership have no anointing to raise up the body out of her stupor and so every week they sit and then go home disillusioned and the have no idea why they feel so empty. I have written a book yet to be published on how God takes the prophet to the threshing floor until he or she is sifted to become fine flour that others may eat. One burns with the fire of His word and this fire is relentless, there is no way one can deny the call, so many times I have begged Him to take the burden. Only those who have this call will understand. Please this is not to say the prophet is more special than any other ministry, but there is a deeper cutting away of the word of the flesh and the cross must be the place the true prophet embraces. Yesterday I thought I could not go on. Today I am encouraged again. Thank you
I do not understand much about ‘Iconoclasts’; what I do know is that when we turn to the Lord to seek Him diligently, He removes the veil and open our eyes of understanding to discern. The first thing that God does with His child is to reveal to them their sin, weaknesses and the mess that we are; and that brings about conviction which in turn leads to repentance. Then He shows us the ‘Way’ to clean up that mess; and as we respond in obedience, God begins to reveal to us His covenant, His secrets. And we grow in grace and in maturity.
Here we are dealing as a Body of Christ and we need to know why we are in the mess that we are in today, and how to clean it up. Yeshua refers to the ‘abomination of desolation’ in Matthew 24:15. We need to know what is this ‘Abomination of Desolation’. Let the Scripture give us insight. In Ezekiel we read the following:
• And the Lord said to me, “Son of man, mark well, see with your eyes and hear with your ears, all that I say to you concerning all the ordinances of the house of the Lord and all its laws. Mark well who may enter the house and all who go out from the sanctuary. Now say to the rebellious, to the house of Israel, let us have no more of all your abominations. When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary to defile it – My house – and when you offered My food, the fat and the blood, then they broke My covenant because of all your abominations. And you have not kept charge of My holy things, but you have set others to keep charge of My sanctuary for you.” Thus says the Lord God, “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My Sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel.” – Ezekiel 44:5-9
I will not expound on the above Scripture, rather, will let those who read it understand and discern. We are called to keep vigil over the affairs of the temple of God in the physical as well the spiritual realm; and guard everything entrusted to our care. When I say ‘Temple of God’, it has two fold references:
• We as individuals are the temple of God according to 1st Cor. 3:16-17 and 1st Cor. 6:19-20
• We as a corporate body are the ‘temple of God’ according to 1st Cor. 12:14-28; 1st Peter 2:4-5.
I pray that God will give each of us the wisdom to clean up our yard (as God does not dwell in unholy places) from the ‘abomination of desolation’ and to be vigilant henceforth to protect it.
Good to know where you are coming from, fallen.
Try reading the following on the subject, the whole verse, please.
1 Kings 2:4
Prov 3:3
Matt 22:16
John 14:6
and certainly John 8:32
Reference:
Matthew Henry’s commentary on 1Tim 3:14-15
“The church is the house of God, he dwells there. The church holds forth the Scripture and the doctrine of Christ, as a pillar holds a proclamation. When a church ceases to be the pillar and ground of truth, we may and ought to forsake her; for our regard to truth should be first and greatest.”
Depending on how far you want to go with this, fallen. Logically, the church (just a body of believers) should uphold the truth not the other way round, that’s why Paul says the church is the pillar and ground for the truth. The church needs the truth to exist and function or it becomes an organised entity for deception.
Nothing existed before the truth, creation came out of truth, therefore truth existed before anything came into existence.
The truth existed before the church was formed, from the beginning, it did not need anything to support itself.
The truth is independent of opinion, support or agreement. It is not dependent on opinion and approval of any sort, including that of any church which does not mean that Christ does not want a church on earth; this church is described in Rev 12.
The bible is true, it is a testimony of a God of truth, John 14:6.
Believers, like the rest of the world, can choose to embrace the truth or discard it and go their own way.
Unless, you have a different version of the truth.
As for special “appointments” by God (i.e. prophets), many are called but few are chosen.
I think one problem in the church is that the whole Christian thing is just way to simple and straightforward (not necessarily easy!), which does not appeal to our sophisticated western world.
Jesus summed it up:
Love God, and love people in practical, tangible ways! That’s it, that’s all! If we would fulfill these two fundamental commandments God would be extremely pleased with us.
Other than that, there are these FEW who are CHOSEN by GOD for a special calling (i.e prophet), only AFTER fulfilling the love commandments and establishing a necessary foundation. (Nothing goes without love in God’s economy!)
(A bible search and study of the words ‘choose’, ‘chose’ and ‘chosen’ will make very clear that no one can drum up or choose the position (calling) of a prophet, evangelist, apostle, etc.)
The church has widely ignored the essential ‘loving ones neighbor’ part and focused too much on how to become a spirit-filled super-christian, preferably gifted with the power to perform healings and other splashy miracles.
To live a quiet, non-flashy, humble life of loving people and helping others without blowing ones trumpet, just isn’t exciting and appealing enough. We want to see sparks flying and hear thunder rolling.
To labor among the poor as one of them, without ever wanting any praise or major recognition just doesn’t sound like a powerful, super-spiritual Christian life.
I believe that, since God IS love, love is the most important thing of all. As we read in Scripture, even if I prophesy up a storm and have not love, I am nothing and I have nothing!
In the end this is what we will be judged on, how much we have loved and not how many sophisticated sermons we have preached or how many days we have fasted, etc., etc.
However, to truly love people regardless of who they are, stands right against our selfish, prideful nature and is therefore the hardest thing to do.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Just going back to the 2nd writer ‘dudewheresmyfire’ ….I’d just like to make one point here and it’s this; God requires us to LOVE the church…the people in His church.
I know its hard, boy do I know its hard and Im still learning and struggling with this myself. I’ve just left a church after being there 6 yrs and there are many reasons why I left which are biblical, but through the journey of the last year a bitterness built up in me against some of the people in that church I discovered they really didnt think the way I did! And I weaned myself away from it and I am just recently weaning my way back into another church that does preach the word of God, because God says all throughout the NT to not forsake gathering together etc and we show we love Him by the way we love our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and on and on, there are many scriptures that point this out. So I had to repent and find it in my heart to change.
We can leave churches because of certain reasons but we must continue to have love in our hearts for our ‘family’ of believers and not think we are holier than thou because we definitely arent. We cant label ourselves a ‘prophet’ and think we’re any better than anyone else. We are servants and friends of Christ who must humbly serve Him and do whatever He gives us to do every day with sincerity, kindness, humility and thankfulness. I respect a person like this much more than someone who gives themself (very unbiblical also) the label or title ‘prophet.’ If you truly have this gift then others will recognize it in the church eventually and it will bless other believers, you dont need to up and leave in a huff if they dont listen to you…wrong attitude altogether.
Dear Jonathan,
You have 3 numbered statements and all three are spiritually flawed. You wrote:
Before Jeremiah had prophetically spoken of God’s New Covenant of the heart, Isaiah had already prophesied of God redeeming the gentiles through the Messiah and the Holy One Who is our promised Covenant. Witness the following correcting Scriptures:
Isaiah 42:6-7 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isaiah 49:6 And He [God] said, It is a light thing that thou should be My Servant [Jesus Christ] to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give Thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou may be My Salvation unto the end of the earth.
Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same My Name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto My Name, and a Pure Offering: for My Name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. There are other corroborating Scripture verses.
Jonathan, you are right in that the Lord said He would write His Torah on the heart, but the Torah was written in the inward parts, meaning the soul of the person. As I am sure you are aware of the Hebrew word “Torah” means instructions. God is Love, and He is Light to the heart of Man. Therefore, if the Lord God writes His saving Instructions on the soul and the heart of man, He is speaking of the Great Commandments.
Deuteronomy 6:4-6 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
And as Jesus, [Yeshuah the Messiah] says: This is the First and Great Commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Mathew 22:38-40 All things pertaining to the Torah and the prophets and hanging beneath these two Great Commandments of the Almighty God, Who is Love Himself. God’s New Covenant is given in the Life Blood of His only Begotten Son and He is just like His Father in Perfect holy Love and Righteousness.
Dear Jonathan, as you must know, the old covenant was in the blood of animals, which God’s people were not to drink for it was the life/soul of the beast. It was a temporary sacrifice performed twice daily for the sins of the people to propitiate the holy wrath of God.
From the time of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and His resurrection, the New Covenant of God has been on this earth, and in this earth, because of the poured out Blood of Jesus Christ, Who is the only begotten Son of the infinitely Holy God, and as the Son of Man, He is the only mediator between God and mankind. Only a perfect sacrifice of the holiest order could satisfy holy, holy, holy God Almighty. The Life of the flesh is in the Blood, and the holy sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Son of Man and His Perfect Love of His Eternal Father is the only Life that could propitiate or satisfy the sins of the world.
The WORD of GOD, Yeshuah ha Machiach, established or inaugurated for us the New Covenant in His Blood, when He said: “This is My Blood of the New Covenant that is shed for many for the “remission” of sins.” That Life Blood of Jesus Christ is the Love of God poured out upon the dust of this earth, so that we would drink of the Life of the Spirit, for the Spirit and the Water and the Blood are One Fountain of Living Water. When we come together as the Body of Jesus Christ to worship God Almighty in Spirit and Truth, it is incumbent upon us to drink of the Holy Life Blood of our Savior that is given to us through God’s Holy Spirit. If God’s Holy Spirit is Spirit then the New Covenant Blood of Jesus Christ in Holy Communion is also Spirit, nevertheless it is the Real Life Covenant Blood of our Lord that is shed for many for the obliteration of current sins that are being forsaken. Understand in the heart and the depths of your soul what the Lord Jesus Christ says to all: Truly, Truly I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His Blood, you have no Life in you. Please see John 6 verses 53 thru 57.
The old covenant in bestial life blood has changed to the New Covenant in the sinless Life Blood of our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ.
In our Lord’s service, and to all that are looking to be found in His New Covenant of Love.
Robert Glenn
P.S.
Our fellowship or Communion is in the WORD of GOD, and our Lord has set it there for us to participate in His Life of holiness. It is not Roman Catholic in origin, but is part of our New Covenant of promise of Life in our Savior.
There is a church for everyone,depending on personal desire,
2Timothy4:3-8,
1: I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2: Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5: But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6: For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7: I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Itching ears is defined as ‘desirious of hearing something pleasant’.
We all seek out what we want to hear.
False doctrine is deadly.
Much appreciated article. Truly we need to differentiate today between the authority of a God inspired prophetic voice which cries out for change and Godly re-alignment, and between judgment that only wants to condemn. Lord, revitalize the ministry of your true prophets!
By the way, “Curmudgeon” is not in fact synonymous with a prophet. The dictionary definition describes it as, “a bad-tempered and often old man.” (O.K. so we know SOME prophets like this, but, we should be as accurate as possible!)
Derek Hale wrote: False doctrine is deadly.
——————————————————————
One BIG reason why false prophets are successful:
I have read in a statistic that only about 25% of North-American Christians believe that satan actually exists. This would mean that 75% of Christians are un-protected against an invisible enemy who is very powerful and “full of wisdom”(Ez.28:12) Could this be one of the explanations for the deception we see in the church and the invasion of false teachings, false prophets etc.?
How can our brothers be so blindly deceived? Are they perhaps not wearing the armour God instructs us to wear? (Eph.6) Why are our leaders not teaching about the evil, spiritual forces at work?
Even the powerful Apostle Paul admitted: “Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, but satan hindered us.” (1Thes. 2:18)
God tells us in James chapter 4 to “resist the devil…” Why would He possibly caution us this way?
The answer is clear:
“Woe to the inhabiters of the earth… for the devil has come down unto you… and he went to make war with them that have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (Rev.12; 1Pet.5:8; Job1:7; 2Tim.2:26; 2Cor.2:11)
One of the worst drugs ever used in God’s church was, and still is, the opium of the “grace only” message. The true Prophets of old brought great conviction to God’s people. The modern-day wannabe prophets preach love and grace, and that God only wants to bless us like He blessed Jabez.
Opium indeed, which clouds the mind and blurs spiritual vision.
Like children who are great selective hearers…
(Loudly after 3 tries) CLEAN UP YOUR ROOM, SON…did you say something, Dad?
(Quietly the first time) Would you like some ice-cream, son? SURE!
…so also many Christians have become selective readers, only picking out the raisins in Scripture.
(God loves you and only wants to bless you. The Christian “experience” must always be fun and exciting, etc.)
The late Christian song writer, Keith Green, in one of his songs, said that God had 2000 years to prepare a most beautiful Heaven for us. What Keith didn’t say is that satan had 2000 years of practice in deceiving people.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
Of course:
…satan had OVER 2000 years of practice in deceiving people.
Mario Alleckna said “One of the worst drugs ever used in God’s church was, and still is, the opium of the “grace only” message. The true Prophets of old brought great conviction to God’s people. The modern-day wannabe prophets preach love and grace, and that God only wants to bless us like He blessed Jabez.
Opium indeed, which clouds the mind and blurs spiritual vision.”
The easy grace, or grace only message has actually turned into the “think positive” message of the new age type thinking. Don’t say anything negative or the positive energy will dissipate.
This is also seen in the training of many network marketing groups. Visualize what you want, pour positive thoughts into it, and nothing will stop you.
Instead of sticking with what scripture says:
Repent and be baptized every one.
The message is:
Sin is too negative to think about. The positive thinking in the world will overcome evil.
The only thing that overcomes sin/evil is the blood of Christ. That message will be an offense to the easy grace/grace only/ positive energy thinkers in and out of the church.
Yes Michele. The positive thinking, generating positive results philosophy is also used by eastern gurus and meditation schools (TM).
And then there is Joel Osteen with his message of, “Your best life NOW”. (Better than Heaven, Mr. Osteen?) The basis for such teachings by Church leaders is a misrepresentation of biblical faith. If we would have enough faith we could “move mountains”, or better: make a Mercedes appear in your driveway, since God loves us so much and wants to bless us with abundance.
Instead of Heaven being home, or as King David said, “I am a stranger in the earth”, many deceived church leaders teach that we could have two heavens.
Interesting when we realize that about 300 thousand Christians are persecuted for their faith each year, many of whom are tortured and killed.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
It is no surprise to me that false prophets/teachers with their false doctrine are so successful.They pander to man’s vanity.
We are drawn by our natures to those who say what we want to hear.We are vain by nature.
1Timothy:1:5-7,
5: Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7: Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
Have just finished reading a very good but heavy book I picked up at an op-shop, – “God’s Strategy in Human History” by Forster & Marston.
I found what they say about ‘chosen’ or not very insightful.
It includes our response to His call, our individual quest for Truth rather than choosing blindness, and how closely we connect to God.
Also an indepth study on the predestination debate, – God foreknowing our choices & our freedom to make the choice.
dudewheresmyfire, – was your question answered here? Maybe not.
Where do you live?
Basically all we can do is love oneanother & share our Saviour with those who are open to receiving.
Have a look at the Blessed Economist.nz site & go into ‘Church Meetings’ & ‘Revival in Twos and Threes’.
May God bless you and fill you with His peace & assurance.
What we allow to influence our souls will lead to yielding ourselves over to it which leads to submission and surrender and finally a possession.
There are always two choices. Being possessed by our own wills, desires, way, that leads to demonic possession or being possessed by the Spirit of God in which He works His will and way through the submissive vessel.
There are only two masters.
Choose this day who you will serve.
Deu 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.
Jos 9:27 That day he made the Gibeonites woodcutters and water carriers for the community and for the altar of the LORD at the place the LORD would choose. And that is what they are to this day.
Jos 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
False doctrine abounds in the Church, and especially at this time of year. I’ll state again that Christmas is a PAGAN festival with its origins in druidism and worshipping the sun at the time of the winter solstice. Easter has its PAGAN origins in the Egyptian goddess of fertility. Lent is a purely man-made institution. Harvest Festival is a corruption of Sukkot.
Can anyone tell me why the ‘Church’ endorses so-called Christian parents lying to their children about writing letters to ‘Santa Claus’ asking for the presents they want? There’s even lies told in the telling of the nativity account. Sheep in Israel were not out in the fields in December. Most scholars agree that Jesus (Yeshua, as I prefer to call Him) was born around the Feast of Tabernacles in the year 3 BC (around September/October time).
Can I ask every born-again believer to search their hearts and ask the Lord to show them what He feels about keeping these pagan festivals while abandoning the ones He has commanded his people to keep?
Surely bowing down to trees is nothing less than idolatry? Surely setting your hopes on what you want to get at Christmas is nothing less than greed? Santa is an anagram of Satan – and I think Christmas is satanic in origin and brings a curse onto those who participate in this insidious form of idolatry. Surely true believers should have nothing to do with the evil works of darkness? In the book of Acts those who had believed the preaching of scripture showed their repentance by burning their occultic books on magic and sorcery. So why do believers have mistletoe and fir trees adorning their houses?
What about in Leviticus 23 when God says his feasts are to be kept forever? Why doesn’t His Church keep His feasts? Why does the Church meet on Sundays instead of keeping the Sabbath on the proper day of Saturday? Why has the Church thrown out everything Jewish? What are Christians afraid of? Jesus is forever a circumcised Jew! All the early church were Jews! Why does the church keep the ’10 commandments’ and yet ignore the other 603! Why do born-again people have tattoos put on their bodies after conversion, when God clearly hates them! What is the church thinking by ordaining homosexuals to various offices in the church? Don’t God’s laws count for anything?
It grieves me greatly that we are supposed to be ‘people of the Book’ – yet the western church has thrown out pretty much everything in the Old Testament! The church has a Hellenistic mindset. This must change. I’m not going to write again on this website as I’m fed up of people twisting scripture for their own ends. All the early church had was the ‘Old Testament’! I’m so fed up of this replacement theology. The Jews are the wife of Yahweh. Forever. Period. I’m fed up of hearing that the Law has been thrown out in favour of grace, giving people licence to do exactly what pleases them! What about what pleases God?
My church is shortly to start an Alpha course in the New Year, a move I’m strongly opposed to. It will be yet another example of moving people onto a ‘spiritual experience’ – bypassing the cross and repentance and true conversion and leaving full immersion in water as an ‘optional extra, if you feel like it’s right for you’! Also in every instance in the book of Acts, people were baptised ‘into the name of the Lord Jesus’ – not into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit which is erroneously taught in churches today. Why don’t Christians obey what is clearly taught in the Bible?
Adoni Elohim, what awful days we are living in. Deception on every side. Come soon Adoni Yeshua!
Amen, brother Derek.
Ho,Ho,Ho, Mary-Christ-Mass,
Says, The Catholic Saint Nick
Yeh, I hear your heart in the matters you spoke of Raheli. I guess I celebrate christmas because its a time in the year to celebrate the birth of Christ but you’re right, perhaps we shouldnt buy into all that the world adds to the day ie the greed, and the replacement good guy santa instead of Jesus etc etc.I guess I see it as a day to have family gather together too and if I made a stand and said ‘no way we’re not buying into it all and we wont come over and celebrate Christmas day with you’ then that would just come across as mean spirited and pety to my rellies. I figure that I can still celebrate Christmas and still have it be a good thing like, I can still have my heart right during it if you know what I mean. I can give to my rellies because God loves it when we give, I can gather together with family because God loves it when we do that too, and I can celebrate Jesus being born on that day even if its not the right day and God loves it when I do that too. Is it just a case of being in the world but not of it or do you think Im still of the world?
Jesus is not married to Israel.
And never was.
Jesus said, He is Lord Over His Own House.
God gave Israel
The Certificate 0f Divorce Away From Him.
Although He, Himself is still married to her.
Jer.3:8,14
Also we dont keep the old laws of Moses because that covenant and the laws then are done away with…it says that in the New Testament. We are under the law of grace, a covenant sealed with the blood of Jesus. A covenant of the heart. The Holy Spirit now leads and guides us instead of laws. The law was only given to show how sinful we were and how we could never keep them, so why do you ask ‘why dont we keep the laws?’ We need to read His word and be guided by His Spirit not by laws. The only law we need be concerned with are the laws of the land. (if theyre Godly).
Stirring up strife over “major” or just minor issues??
- Saint Patrick’s Day Is A Catholic Holiday.
- Saint Valentine’s Day Is A Catholic Holiday.
- Saint Nick Is A Catholic Holiday.
These holidays have to so with
The Religious Good Deeds 0f Their Saints.
With God in mind of course. -
What is the one time of year that brings out more old Hymns of the faith than any other?
When peace, joy, and good will toward men is not only sung but actually practiced.
That the Savior is thought about corporately more than any other time, and the Father is honored for giving us such a gift.
Can’t see that being displeasing to God.
You know, if this whole Christmas thing is thought about in a different Light..
What started out as maybe a pagan thing with pagan roots, the spirit of the Lord working through men was able to show and witness to the whole world His plan for salvation. He used what was false to show the truth.
It is up to each individual family to keep the true meaning of Christmas, and keep the message of that salvation going for each generation.
Dear all, let us fast and pray before we discuss Scriptures or our understanding and, or revelation given to us. FAST AND PRAY. We’ll bear much fruit.
No disrespect Sheeja John but if we fasted and prayed every time we discussed scripture we’d be CONTINUALLY fasting and praying and as skinny as a rake!!! What’s wrong with just asking God about it first and then searching our brains for what we’ve learnt about the topic being discussed? Anyway….
Back to what Raheli said…..”I’m fed up of hearing that the Law has been thrown out in favour of grace, giving people licence to do exactly what pleases them! What about what pleases God? ”
I think this comes back to whether a person is truly born again or not as to whether they “…feel they have a licence to do exactly what pleases them.” and not what pleases God. In my experience if you are truly born again you may sin but you dont want to carry on doing what doesnt please God! And you know that there is discipline coming if you carry on in it, as God is described like a father who disciplines His children just like an earthly one does…so you really dont get away with anything…God is fair and just even when we live under grace.
Jhn 8:21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jo 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
That which people idolize is that which becomes their stumbling block. And it can be the most surprising things.
Most idols are found in mammon but a lot are also found in religion. This whole discussion would go better if there was a definition of what exactly an idol is. It is not just some carving but what the carving represents.
Christmas is a celebration of Christ’s birthday. This has for generations been used to teach each successive generation about the deity of Christ. Of course Christmas is going to come under attack. First it gets commercialized and then there is a move to remove Christ from it altogether and ban the nativity story outright.
Just about every year now Christmas has become a battle ground, Well the shepherds were out in the fields watching their flocks by night. They had to or the natural predators would be feeding off them. Or do you really think that an iron age culture was going to herd all their flocks into a barn for the winter and feed them off harvested hay in a Mediterranean climate ?
I believe we should celebrate Jesus birthday in the same manner as the Church in the book of acts did.The same instructions and guide lines that the apostles gave the early church and was adhered to for the first 300+years should be followed.Read those directives yourself and don’t stray from them.How easily we can go beyond that which is written.
Why celebrate His birthday?
Why not celebrate that for which He was born instead.
He came that we have life.
This is what I celebrate.
I celebrate life, for I can now move and breathe and have my being in Him.
No holiday brings life, but it is He that gives life.
Unbelievers do not move and breathe and have their being in Him do they?
We celebrate His birth to bring honor and glory to his name, and to teach our children to do the same. To show the world who we serve. Not that this is not carried out throughout the year, but it is a special day/time of year to do so.
Most celebrate their own birthday. A day set aside where family and friends celebrate our life. Is it so wrong to do the same for our Lord?
Those shepherds celebrated the birth of Christ
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Luk 2:12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Luk 2:15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
Luk 2:16 And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.
Luk 2:17 And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.
Luk 2:18 And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds.
Luk 2:19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.
Luk 2:20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them.
Michelle,
Follow your heart and celebrate His birth.
I would rather celebrate Him, and what He showed us which is eternal life.
John !2:49-50
Says that Father gave Him a commandment, and that commandment is everlasting life, even as the father said unto Him, so He speaks.
Follow your heart and celebrate His birth.
I would rather celebrate Him, and what He showed us which is eternal life.
John !2:49-50
The one action is the same as the other. To celebrate His birth does not negating the fact of celebrating what He came to do. It is an opportunity to witness to that fact.
Although Christmas has been watered down, why not use the time of year to spread the gospel starting with the birth of Jesus.
To each his own.
Traveler: yeh I agree, we have to expect that the day that Christ is celebrated would come under attack…or be counterfeited in some way, shape or form.
What’s more important is that we celebrate and acknowledge Jesus every day in our lives through our praise and worship of Him, do you agree?
Whats really been speaking to me this last week is that even though Christmas can be replaced by other things, His peace can never have a substitute. We have His righteousness, peace and joy that most of the world unfortunately cannot imagine or experience….and like one of you mentioned…we have ‘life.’ I wondered if perhaps this is why so many people take drugs (illegal) to experience that euphoric peace???
Hark the herald angels sing
glory to the new born King,
Peace on earth and mercy mild,
God and sinners reconciled.
My favourite Christmas carol.
The world can do what it likes with Christmas.It won’t stop me celebrating the birth of my Lord and master.
I love those words, Derek, my favourite carol too :) The Christmas time thing is an extension of what we already do and have, a shadow, perhaps, and not the substance. Yet I would prefer a shadow of the real thing, rather than an empty void for a substitute. Another meditation I love, …
Crown Him the Virgin’s son
The God incarnate born
Whose arms those crimson trophies won
Which now His brow adorns
Fruit of the mystic rose
And of that rose the stem
The root whence mercy ever flows
The babe of bethlehem
It sounds just as good when recited, as it does when it is sung.
Derek,
That is my favorite carol as well.
You said nothing would stop you from celebrating His birth, but you also celebrate His life, as I have seen this in your posts.
Michelle is right, the two should go hand in hand.
Celebration of the very life of Jesus Christ is the thing,following him to the Father must be our aim but once a year at least I will not miss celebrating his birth.
There is a lot of nonsense going on about us,pagan,worldly nonsense
yet through it all we can visit the manger and present him with our gifts.
The world speaks of 3 wise men,what do they know?We all have access to God’s wisdom.It’s hidden in a field for us to find(another parable).
Mat 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
Solomon,a very wise man of God,wrote about this treasure.It’s full description can be found in Proverbs chapters 1-8.
Love those lyrics. Here is a link to my favourite carol which also has beautiful words:
http://youtu.be/JxCO5BGQIcs
Or alternatively here are the lyrics:
O Holy Night! The stars are brightly shining,
It is the night of the dear Saviour’s birth.
Long lay the world in sin and error pining.
Till He appeared and the Spirit felt its worth.
A thrill of hope the weary world rejoices,
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn.
Fall on your knees! Oh, hear the angel voices!
O night divine, the night when Christ was born;
O night, O Holy Night , O night divine!
O night, O Holy Night , O night divine!
Led by the light of faith serenely beaming,
With glowing hearts by His cradle we stand.
O’er the world a star is sweetly gleaming,
Now come the wisemen from out of the Orient land.
The King of kings lay thus lowly manger;
In all our trials born to be our friends.
He knows our need, our weakness is no stranger,
Behold your King! Before him lowly bend!
Behold your King! Before him lowly bend!
Truly He taught us to love one another,
His law is love and His gospel is peace.
Chains he shall break, for the slave is our brother.
And in his name all oppression shall cease.
Sweet hymns of joy in grateful chorus raise we,
With all our hearts we praise His holy name.
Christ is the Lord! Then ever, ever praise we,
His power and glory ever more proclaim!
His power and glory ever more proclaim!
These are the original lyrics to “Oh, Holy Night”
Midnight, Christians, it is the solemn hour,
When God-man descended to us
To erase the stain of original sin
And to end the wrath of His Father.
The entire world thrills with hope
On this night that gives it a Savior.
People kneel down, wait for your deliverance.
Christmas, Christmas, here is the Redeemer,
Christmas, Christmas, here is the Redeemer!
May the ardent light of our Faith
Guide us all to the cradle of the infant,
As in ancient times a brilliant star
Guided the Oriental kings there.
The King of Kings was born in a humble manger;
O mighty ones of today, proud of your greatness,
It is to your pride that God preaches.
Bow your heads before the Redeemer!
Bow your heads before the Redeemer!
The Redeemer has overcome every obstacle:
The Earth is free, and Heaven is open.
He sees a brother where there was only a slave,
Love unites those that iron had chained.
Who will tell Him of our gratitude,
For all of us He is born, He suffers and dies.
People stand up! Sing of your deliverance,
Christmas, Christmas, sing of the Redeemer,
Christmas, Christmas, sing of the Redeemer!
I remember as a kid that every year we used to have carols by candle light out in the park. Of course in the southern hemisphere December was in the summer but there was not one child in the entire country that did not understand what Christmas was all about.
Its amazing how a simple tradition that was once just taken for granted is suddenly no longer there.
Michelle,
Can you find the song itself.
I have looked but had no luck with it.
I like those lyrics that you posted and would like to hear them sung.
Thank you
Teshuva,
The music was written for that poem called Midnight, Christians. It was originally written in French.
There are 2 other versions of the poem.
John Sullivan Dwight’s version is the one we hear today called Oh Holy Night.
Have not heard it in it’s original literal translation either. Singing along to an instrumental may be a good way to go.
If you do, make a youtube video for the rest of us :)
Michelle,
Thank you for bringing the lyrics. I took the liberty to copy and paste them, so I at least have them.
If I were talented in the vocal department, I would
make the video.
Maybe I can find it, if I continue to search.
Thank you again for sharing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-y1tT3wkaM
I found this version under the name Cantique de Noel, which is the original name of the minuet.
I rather enjoyed it though it is not in the English language.
Very beautiful.
Found this word from December 2009 that fits here:
The deception is at the door. It is near. This deception has been seen in the idol worship happening in the Church. My people have slipped into this idol worship. They are not examining their hearts to find this idol. Their hearts have turned to wood. They are not in repentance of this idol worship that seems so right in their eyes. They have minimized their God into a human form. They have made a god of their own imaginations.
Michelle, Jesus Christ is all worthy, and He is worthy to be praised, yes, this is honourable. He is not just a doorway, and the ears of those are blocked to the truth at this time. They will not listen to the full council because their misconceptions are being questioned. Their pride is being stepped on. Their idol is being put to the test.
This is the deception that cannot be proven.
This is the one that is the strong delusion that these people will go after. There is coming a false Christ that will be so the image of the first that many will follow. Many will follow because their focus and worship is on the door and not on the Destination. I am the Destination. There are those that will understand as this time comes to fruition. There are those that will see the truth because the truth has been brought forth.
To worship an image is idolatry. To worship in spirit and in Truth the Only God…Jehovah is the only way to escape the deceit that is coming. It is near, and it will be.
Derek Hale wrote:
Celebration of the very life of Jesus Christ is the thing,following him to the Father must be our aim but once a year at least I will not miss celebrating his birth.
There is a lot of nonsense going on about us,pagan,worldly nonsense
yet through it all we can visit the manger and present him with our gifts.
The world speaks of 3 wise men,what do they know?We all have access to God’s wisdom.It’s hidden in a field for us to find(another parable).
Mat 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
Prov.!:8
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Beautiful! Thank you, Derek.
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Is celebrating Christmas okay?
As long as we celebrate Him with our hearts, “for God looks at the heart and man looks at the outward appearance.” (1Sam. 16:7)
“These people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with there lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me…”
(Matt. 15:8,9)
This I have found:
The many different signs and sounds of true worship are the outward expressions of a soft and hungry heart, deeply touched and changed forever by God’s Glory.
The closer we get to the source of life, the more we are drawn to worship the One who IS the source.
To all: Have a blessed Christmas season, and a wonderful New Year in His sweet presence.
All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Mario,please allow me to continue Matt 15 to verse 18,
9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10: And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12: Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13: But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14: Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15: Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16: And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17: Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18: But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
I find it interesting that though the blind are led into the ditch by blind leaders our Lord says to leave them alone.
Please share your understanding on this.
Derek,
I know you asked Mario this question of “leave them alone” and so I hope it is o.k for others to answer.
What I am understanding with the leave them alone, is to lay them aside, and follow Him. Yeshua said if we came to Him and did not hate our mother, father, wife, and to include our own life we could not be His disciple.
Since He is love, we know that He does not want us to literally hate but rather to set all these things aside and seek Him, the Kingdom and truth.
So in other words, leave them alone, lay them and their teachings aside and follow Him.
That which came from their mouth was unclean/defiled and so we are not to touch the unclean thing.
I hope it was o.k to attempt an answer.
Michelle, I am sorry, but part of the link above was cut off, and is not correct. This one below should take you there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghBz17icHIs
In Matthew15:14 the KJV gives us ‘alone’ as ‘afeame’.
The blue letter bible gives us meaning,
1) to send away
a) to bid going away or depart
1) of a husband divorcing his wife
b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
c) to let go, let alone, let be
1) to disregard
2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
a) of teachers, writers and speakers
3) to omit, neglect
d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
a) in order to go to another place
b) to depart from any one
c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all mutual claims are abandoned
d) to desert wrongfully
e) to go away leaving something behind
f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
i) abandon, leave destitute
As I see it we are to move on,so to speak,to leave the blind leaders and their blind followers to fall into the ditch that God has prepared for them.
This does not sit comfortably with me but I seek God’s will not my own.
I came across an interesting article that some may find of interest.
“Do You Believe in a Santa Christ?” by Nathan W. Bingham
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/do-you-believe-in-a-santa-christ/
I would say; look to God not the existing churches or church structures for your needs. Eg if isolated continue to pray that God brings Christians of like mind to you. Keep praying until they come. You may end up with your own church or a group of great new Christian friends. The bible says to persevere.
When i weighed up my situation I lacked the most in the areas where I had prayed less for myself. Altho quite extensive Im rectifying this with some results from God already, Praise God.
We need to beware of idolising what is good in the church too, even the five fold ministries idea around which many idols have been made. True prophecy is useful but if we were already living as the bible tells us too their words encouragements and warings would not be needed most of the time.
It always seems to come back to this, in almost every situation, – PUT THE SCRIPTURES INTO PRACTICE in action and attitude.
@Mercedes…thank you for attempting to reveal the heart, soul, and lifestyle of a true prophet to those on this site. Some will continue to believe as they wish because they do not want anyone in a position to correct them however your words blessed my soul.
I want to be “inside”, I miss the fellowship I had before the Lord opened my eyes…[you shall KNOW the TRUTH and the truth shall MAKE you free]…however “inside” means compromise.
I joined a church a few months ago and first of all they make you go to new members class…do they really think that everyone that comes to church is a baby Christian? Then I sat in a class on spiritual gifts for 5 weeks under a teacher that never opened her Bible once, nor did she explain the gifts…just us her testimony and cracked jokes for 5 WEEKS! Then I went to another 4 week class with a teacher that stated the Lord no longer talks to us, and that “repentance” just means being sorry you got caught at times…what! That is not “repentance…smh…
I am looking for the remnant and asking the Lord to help us meet one another. Amen, In Jesus Name!
On another thread a member posted her web site. As I was looking around, I came across this article that some may find of interest.
The Church “Outside The Camp”
Scriptural and Practical Notes For Isolated Believers
http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/church/outside.html
We must be ‘outside the camp’.The camp is corrupted.
It is a wonderful thing to be in true fellowship with other true believers yet to be in fellowship with another master is death.
Much is written by others on forums of the need for unity in the church but it all begins with unity with God,with our Lord Jesus Christ,unity in TRUTH.
We are in danger of judgement if not true to God.We must first have a true relationship with the Father through his Son.A personal relationship that relies on no man for support or guidance.
Reliance on a church is a dangerous business and has led us to this Christianity tainted with false teaching.
Rely on no man.In all our ways we must acknowledge only God and he will direct our paths.
Find the Holy Spirit with in and trust to God’s Spirit only.
The Holy Spirit will “Show you all things”.
Thank you, Derek.
You asked what leaving those who end up in a ditch could mean.
Just this morning I was reading Matthew 9: 57- 62.
Here Jesus talks about what it takes to follow Him.
“Follow me.”
“Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” (i.e. help the guy in the ditch; say goodbye etc.)
Jesus said to him: “Let the dead bury their own dead.”
How cruel, so the world would say. Now, we know that God IS love. Is there perhaps a contradiction here?
Certainly not! Jesus is trying to make a strong point not to be missed.
To love God and to follow Jesus, is the First and most important attribute of a true Christian, more important than anything or anyone else.
By giving the example of following Him in such an unwavering, un-stoppable way, we show the world that we are serious about following Him, and that it is indeed a serious matter not to be taken lightly.
Allow me to give a practical example, which will clearly show certain implications…
Let’s picture a man who, before he follows Jesus, goes to say goodbye to his wife (mother/father).
“Honey, I’m sorry, but I met this Jesus who asked me to follow Him.” (sorry?)
Now the wife (mother/father) will try to argue, as she fears to lose the man who provides for her and the kids.
“You don’t even know this Jesus. There are rumours about Him…” (etc.; etc.)
It’s easy to see that we must either follow Him right NOW when He calls, or problems will arise that will draw us away again.
There are two things to look at: First, the problem we have with our focus. Is our focus fully on Jesus, or on ourselves while seeing ourselves as far too important and adding Jesus to our lives? Secondly, the problem we have with unbelief.
Should the man look at himself as thee provider for his family, or is God the true provider? Let’s picture a man not going back home to say goodbye. Would God not provide for this man’s family? Might He perhaps send an angel to let the wife know what’s happening? Is God powerful enough and sovereign? Does God perhaps love the man’s wife and kids even more than the man does? Are they not His children?
Remember when the priest tried to “help out God” by steadying the Ark?
The Lord snuffed him out for such an insult. Does God need our help? Let’s apply that to HIS creation.
People are His creation. Does God need our help to take care of His creation? Yes of course, He might ask us and use us to be of help, but the answer is, “No, He does not NEED our help”! Will He not deal with the person in the ditch since He IS love? Does the person in the ditch perhaps need this experience to come to his senses?
What Jesus is trying to point out and make strongly clear, is that following and loving Him is the most important thing we could ever do, and it will come at a price.
“Follow me and DO NOT EVER LOOK BACK, or STOP for this ‘n that, no matter how important or noble it may seem. Just follow me, I’ll take care of the rest.”
By following Jesus without compromise we make a very strong statement of faith, showing the world that He is indeed more important than anything or anyone else in life.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
The argument is really about how a loving God can be so cruel, not allowing someone to bury his father or say goodbye to his family.
It comes down to the fact that our humanistic concept of love is not God’s concept. His ways are much higher than ours; He sees what we don’t see. He knows a person’s heart. And He created everyone. How dare people suggest that we are more loving than the One who made us and who is the creator of love!
I once was asked why a loving God allows people to starve in other countries.
God’s first and foremost desire is to save souls, this is the very reason why Jesus gave His life. (Real [eternal] Life is more important than food to sustain a temporal, dying body.)
Almost all of the people in underdeveloped countries pray to someone or something. If our One, true God would answer their prayers, providing food for them, they would think that Buddha, or whichever idol they pray to, has helped them. This would then drive them even closer to that idol and farther away from the One, true God and real life.
On the other hand: If after years of praying to a dead idol no positive answer was received, such a person might finally clue-in and turn to the One, true God for help.
Yes Derek, we must follow Jesus alone, not man! This can also mean to follow Jesus working in and speaking through a man.
But, unless we have discernment from the Holy Spirit, BEWARE that you don’t end up in a ditch…
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGA7b0sd_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Thank you Mario.Your words remind me of the words of our lord,
Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him , No man , having put his hand to the plough , and looking back , is fit for the kingdom of God .
As for discernment,well He and I are still looking into that.it’s a work in progress.
Where in the New Testament are believers commanded or even urged to celebrate or make a special occasion of Y’shua’s birth? Isn’t it odd that the biggest Christian holiday is one that our Creator never hinted that His own should keep? It seems like a victory for the world, the flesh, and the devil, when people continue to venerate the sun god on the Saturnalia. It is a time of year when pagan gods were worshipped. The only holidays directly given by Elohim are in Lev. 23, Esther, and Y’shua kept Hanukkah (John 10:22,23).
Derek wrote:
Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him , No man , having put his hand to the plough , and looking back , is fit for the kingdom of God .
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Yes Derek. It is really quite a serious thing to follow our Lord. Only through His Spirit can we have the strength. And we should always remember when we pray and ask for more, “to whom much is given, much is required”.
But really, what choice do we have after hearing His call and experiencing His sweet presence but to first run after Him, and then with Him, always close by His side. Nothing else could ever satisfy. How can anyone who has eaten from His table and tasted His choice wine go back to eating at McDonald’s?
I love the old Hymn…
“…and the things of this world grow strangely dim.”
The writer had obviously crossed over, COMPLETELY, into the new life with and in Jesus, which caused the things of this world to lose its taste and allure.
There are so many Christians today who are still drawn by the things of this world because they have not completely crossed over into the new life He has for each one of us.
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You wrote:
As for discernment,well He and I are still looking into that.it’s a work in progress.
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Absolutely! The Holy Spirit, like a major artist, keeps chiseling away at me too, in order to form and bring out the picture of Christ likeness.
Sometimes the chisel hurts quite a bit. Yep, He keeps on pruning and cutting away the useless stuff, and that’s a privilege, to be treated like a son.
May our precious Lord grant us wisdom and strength to love Him more and pursue Him deeper.
Blessings to you and your house!
All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Yes Edwin,
as true lovers of our Lord and Savior, Jesus, we celebrate His coming into this world every day. But I think it’s okay to celebrate with friends and family on top of that in a more outgoing, vocal, and special way once a year.
Just as I love my kids every day, but once a year there is that somewhat more outward expression of my love…
Again, the Lord looks at the heart anyway, and the heart is really what matters when it comes to our relationship with Jesus. (1Sam. 16:7; Matt.15:8/9)
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Thanks Mario.I am reminded of King David’s words,
Psalm 23:4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
I was a Christian for quite some time before I understood the relevance of this verse.
The rod and the staff are akin to the chisel as you put it.They are instruments of discipline,instruments of comfort.
Without God’s discipline we are lost in self.
Love your spirit, Derek!
Yes, God’s rod and staff to discipline and guide His children. Only those of us who have been with Him for some time, and deeply enough, understand the sweetness in His loving correction.
When I was young I did not appreciate my parent’s spankings as a necessary correction to lead and protect me. It seemed terribly cruel at the time.
Now that I have 7 children of my own I certainly understand that a father who cares about the wellbeing of his children will discipline them.
We talked about the issue of following Jesus and not looking back, i.e. going back home first to say goodbye.
I thought of it some more and Sodom and Gomorrah came to mind. When Lot’s wife looked back she turned into a pillar of salt. I think the “looking back” signifies a sense of leaving the old life behind with a heavy heart since not everything was all that bad. In other words, if it were possible, we would like to have the best of both worlds (compromise), which of course doesn’t work.
We must follow Him, leaving the ‘old’ completely behind and not looking back with a sense of sadness because of the good times we had, or we are not really fit to follow Him.
When we picture Jesus walking down a path like a hiking trail (steep at times) away from the city of fun ‘n games, pubs, parties and barbecues, a man going after him can’t stop every 5 minutes, turning around and looking back thinking that the old city-life wasn’t all that bad. Next thing you know, as he turns back to look ahead to Jesus, Jesus is gone. Maybe He made a sudden turn, or He disappeared behind a hill, or went into a forrest…
Now the man begins to wonder if it really was such a good idea to follow this Jesus… (Eph.6:10-12; 1Pet.5:8; Rom.7:23; 2 Cor. 10:5)
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Outreach tool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPK6KShjzW4&feature=related
Our Lord is so very far ahead that it is not an easy matter to trace his steps and follow him.The path is long with many side roads and crossroads.
Proverbs 3
5: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6: In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Jer 6:16 This is what the LORD says: “Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, ‘We will not walk in it.’
I seek the ancient paths.This is the path that my Lord took.
Derek Hale, if it’s possible to love any scripture passages over others, I have to say the two you just posted are my favourites, they are sure speaking to me today!
Dear Trudy, I have taken a cursory glance at the site you referenced above: http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/church/outside.html
This looks refreshing and something that is missing today is an articulate and coherent article on how ‘displaced’ Christians are processing their walk with God and how this reconciles with a void in body ministry they long for, but cannot find through the contemporary expression of faith in many quarters of the Western world. I look forward to reading this article the whole way through. Blessings, Jordan.
Hi Jordan, I have read the entire article and found it very edifying.
The author has insights that I have not considered before and has reinforced others that I have had myself.
For example, it has reinforced for me that one thing about being “outside the camp” is that you miss a lot of the false teaching that is rampant within the church. (Of course, a person still has to exercise great discernment on the Internet, as it is a minefield of false teaching and cult activity. Sometimes I get so discouraged that I call the Internet “religious Babylon.”)
The author said something that really spoke to me and was something I had not considered previously when she was talking about how Christians were leaving organized churches. She said:
“While some may see this as a disaster, I no longer do. Instead of seeing this exodus from the churches as a destructive thing, I see it as a positive opportunity to recover some of the most precious gems of scripture, lying hidden for ages underneath layers of historical dust.
I also see it as a move of God to both protect his people from error and to preserve a genuine expression of faith and worship in a time of growing apostasy. (You could argue that we are witnessing a TRUE “revival”!)”
Source: http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/church/outside.html
It is lonely and very isolating being “outside the camp,” especially when your heart’s desire is to have true fellowship with other Christians.
I know that only God can bring about true fellowship. So this article was an encouragement to continue pressing on and to “keep your eyes fixed on Jesus.”
As I read the article, I was reminded of a book that I read a long time ago entitled, “Let the Waters Roar” by Georgi Vins. The book was a compilation of testimonies from Christians who had been imprisoned for their faith in the Soviet Union. During that time Christians were not free to share the Gospel. I remember one testimony about how the Holy Spirit would lead believers into the woods for a time of worship and fellowship. Nothing had been organized by man. The meeting had been organized solely by God.
So God has done this before. May He do it again!
Trudy wrote:
Nothing had been organized by man. The meeting had been organized solely by God.
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That’s the key, Trudy. This “exodus” from the churches, as you called it, is God’s move of purification as Jesus will come back for a true bride (without spot and wrinkle), untainted by religious, self-serving ideas.
One positive thing here that is often overlooked is that this exodus serves to draw others and shake up the church so that those who are only somewhat dissatisfied will be encouraged to take a hard look and find the courage to leave also.
In the 90ties, satan pushed hard to bring the Kundalini spirit into the charismatic circles. God obviously did not prevent or quench this move of deception. Instead He used it to separate (purify), like on a trashing floor, the wheat from the chaff.
The fellowship we desire must, first and foremost, be that with Jesus alone.
This really is the key to a “healthy” church. Too many do not have a strong personal relationship with Jesus, instead they hide in the crowd, contaminating His church with all kinds of spiritual and religious misconceptions.
Just as the largest plant develops from a small seed, so also must a church grow and develop, beginning with the smallest part, one person.
As I have shared before, there is an interesting Chinese proverb…
If a man treats his wife with love and respect there will be peace in his marriage.
If a married couple love each other and love their children, teaching them well, there will be peace in that family. If families show integrity and treat their neighbours with respect, there will be peace in that neighbourhood. If all the neighbourhoods treat other neighbourhoods with respect, there will be peace in the whole city. If the people of a city treat the people of other cities with kindness and respect, there will be peace in that province. If provinces treat other provinces with dignity and respect, the whole land will be at peace and prosper.
Things always grow from small to big. One important thing leaders have failed to push for is the development of a strong, personal relationship with Jesus through His Holy Spirit. If the individual Christian is “healthy” spiritually, the whole church will be healthy.
The greatest and most difficult change I could ever attempt to work on, is the change of myself. If everyone would be busy, working on changing themselves for the better no one would have to change someone else.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
The Holy Spirit is poorly understood.The Holy Spirit will “Show you all things”.All TRUE things my friends.the spirit of God can never tell a lie.
If we are being taught false understanding/false doctrine then it cannot come from the Holy Spirit.Churches with false teaching MUST be abandoned for the good of the true church of Christ.
God’s Spirit,when given,will never teach lies.”The truth will set you free”.The Spirit of God exposes lies by teaching truth and only truth.
We must not grieve the Holy Spirit by ignoring what we are shown.
Mario,you write,
“The greatest and most difficult change I could ever attempt to work on, is the change of myself. If everyone would be busy, working on changing themselves for the better no one would have to change someone else.”
Change/renewal begins with discernment.much is said and written about discerning spirits in others yet it begins with the discernment of self.
Discern is defined in the blue letter bible as,
To recognise,perceive
To distinguish.understand
TO MAKE ONESELF KNOWN.
To know what to look for in others we must first find out about ourselves.This is not an easy road to travel,it is dimly lit and has many dead end turnings to avoid.The Spirit of God will light the way.
We must listen to God.We must find “Ears to hear” and “eyes to see”.
Hi Mario,
Yes, true fellowship starts with Jesus Christ. Without conversion and regeneration we cannot have fellowship with other believers.
You wrote, “God obviously did not prevent or quench this move of deception. Instead He used it to separate (purify), like on a trashing floor, the wheat from the chaff.” That is an interesting observation.
But regarding deception, Paul warned, “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” (Acts 22:29-30) We also have the warnings in 2 Peter, 2 Timothy and Jude.
My concern would be that believers who are young or simple in the faith could be easily drawn away. Sometimes even mature believers can be drawn away. Remember how Paul rebuked Peter to his face when Peter wasn’t eating with the Gentiles? Peter’s hypocrisy was such an issue that other Jews and even Barnabas was led astray (Galatians 2:11-13). That is why is it so important that the Body act as a whole with each member doing its part. Those who have discernment must not quench the Spirit and need to be allowed to exercise their gift for the good and health of the whole.
Mario, I may see things differently. I honestly don’t think that we can change ourselves. That is why we need our Lord Jesus Christ! I believe that both salvation and sanctification are of the Lord.
Thanks for sharing!
Blessings,
Trudy
Trudy,
Many are ‘drawn away’ from truth the very moment they are saved,drawn away by false teaching.They are taught lies yet many never return from these lies.they love the lies and go on to spread these lies to others.
I had lies in my understanding for many years.I suggest that you may too.The Holy spirit is still working WITH me on the eradication of lies in my understanding.
God changes us Trudy,the Holy Spirit does the work but cannot work without us yielding to truth. To deny truth is to grieve the Spirit of God.
If we are stiff necked and resistant to what we are being shown then the Holy Spirit’s work is nullified.
The hardest truth to see is the truth about ourselves.