HOW THE APOSTLES DIED
-According to both tradition and church history…
_1_ Matthew
Suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia , killed by a sword wound…
_2_ Mark
Died in Alexandria , Egypt , after being dragged by horses through the
streets until he was dead.
_3_ Luke
Was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.
_4_ John
Faced martyrdom when he was boiled in huge basin of boiling oil during
a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was
miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines
on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic
Book of Revelation on Patmos . The apostle John was later freed and
returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an
old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.
_5_ Peter
He was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross. According to church
tradition it was because he told his tormentors that he
felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ had died.
_6_ James the Just
The leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet
down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple
when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that
he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller’s club.
This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.*
_7_ James the Great
Son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a
lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader
of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem . The Roman
officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at
his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of
execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the
judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.
_8_ Bartholomew
Also known as Nathaniel, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed for our
Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching
in Armenia where he was flayed to death by a whip.
_9_ Andrew
Was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras , Greece. After being
whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to
the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that,
when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these
words: ‘I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has
been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it.’ He continued to
preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.
_10_ Thomas
Was stabbed with a spear in India during one of his missionary trips to
establish the church in the sub-continent.
_11_ Jude
Was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.
_12_ Matthias
The apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned
and then beheaded.
_13_ Paul
Was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D.
67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment, which
allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed
throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many
of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of
the New Testament.
Perhaps this is a reminder to us that our sufferings here are indeed
minor compared to the intense persecution and cold cruelty faced by the
apostles/disciples during their times for the sake of the Faith. “And ye
shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake:”
“But he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” – Matthew 10:22.
-Please comment below-
I have read a different account of Andrew, that he went to preach in Central Asia to the Parthians and Scythians and died there. But I can’t recall the reference now, sorry!
Ah yes, Satan hates with a passion any person who becomes a great threat to his kingdom.
If you read the accounts of the 20th Century miracle evangelists many were slayed by great persecution.
We must expect this sort of thing – at the later stages of God’s imminent Holy Spirit outpouring.
David Marsh.
Yes I look forwared to the day My wife and I will be killed in Jerusalem because if His name. The Lird has showned us the place. It is a BIG honor.
But first we shall be a part of the last true revival with the outporing of th Holly Spirit and not the faje one we see today
All of the Apostles died horrendous deaths! They all saw Jesus ALIVE after being crucified & raised back up to heaven. They knew that what Jesus said was the truth & was willing to die for it. They would not have all died for a lie.
Indeed the fate of the Apostles and other saints of those days brings one to shudder. Foxes Book of Martyrs makes it clear that these things have been common through out the history of the Church of Jesus Christ. Things are no different today. i believe in the 5-fold ministry as given in Ephesians. There are Apostles today but i fear we have heard of few of them and i don’t think any own a jet plane.
The end time revival is going to bring about persecution, even from inside the church, and we must be prepared to stand or fall.
I stand amazed at what they “seeded”. They refused to remain a single seed, and today we live because of their faithfulness. Truly God’s ways are not ours.
Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me. John 12:23-26
Good morning to you Pastor Strom,
May the Lord continue to pour out blessings upon you and your family. I was reading about the apostles and made a comment to my boss who is also a Christian and he asked if it was even true and were was the information taken from? I was actually thrown back by his comment and would like to know how did you find out all that information about the apostles death’s. I am not questioning you and I’m sure you have studied the information but I would like to give my boss something to think about? I guess? please help me..thank you so much for that reading piece , it’s so important to know what the apostles went through for preaching the truth to the people..Be blessed as you are to me..
Thank you, Andrew, for this reminder of those who have gone before us and have paid the price for the privilege of ministering the gospel.of Jesus Christ.
As a youth, I began collecting accounts of those who were terribly persecuted in the twentieth century. Literally millions of Christians were persecuted and killed under Communism, Facism, Dictatorships, etc. in the 20th century. These have impacted me in my faith in Christ in a way so as to encourage me to stand for Christ, Truth, Righteousness, and Godly Justice.
This persecution continues today in Muslim and Communist countries and other places where lawlessness exists.
Even though the ridicule, hatred, and persecution I have faced is small compared to what many others have faced, I fully expect that things will get bad enough in the western world that Christians will be imprisoned and even face martyrdom. Even today, in Canada, there have been Christians who have been imprisoned for taking a public stand for Christ and His Truth and Righteousness. We face imprisonment and fines for standing in front of an abortion clinic and declaring that murders are taking place; proclaiming publicly the truth about homosexuality and violating so-called “hate crimes;” or even proclaiming in public the Gospel of Christ because such activities are forbidden by municiple Bible Studies.
I fully expect that such legistlation will continue to get worse so that churches will lose their charitable status because they refuse to promote homosexuality or perform homosexual “marriages.” I have seen the bureaucratic demands increase exponentially upon churches with charitable status in my lifetime.
However, history teaches us that increased persecution separates the true from the false followers of Christ.; it purifies and strengthens true Christians; it gets Christians focussed on the important things in life; and it results in the growth and increase of the Church.
Scripture makes it quite clear that persecution and martyrdom is an integral part of true Christianity:
2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV) “Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.”
Acts 14:22 (KJV) “Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
Joh”n 15:20 (KJV) Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.”
Mark 4:16-17 (NKJV) “These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble.”
Mark 10:29-30 (NKJV) “So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time–houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions–and in the age to come, eternal life.”
Romans 8:35 (KJV) “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?”
2 Corinthians 12:10 (KJV) “Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.”
2 Thessalonians 1:4 (KJV) “So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: ”
Revelation 7:14 (AMP) “I replied, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation (persecution), and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Be encouraged in the Lord as you press on in Him.
May God richly bless you all in Christ,
Wayne
It just shows we’re not doing our job very well.
Today that is. How many of us have faced death to preach the Gospel? Most of us send others in our place. Most church people won’t even grace working at their local food bank or do any outreach ministry at all even though their church might offer it with training. Too busy, too scared, too lazy. Big, bloated, lazy modern church.
Some of these are false accounts and embellished church tradition. I think we do a disservice to those who are true martyrs for Christ, including John the Baptist, by promoting historically unverified or spurious traditions. Having said that, the church is shot through-and-through with career-minded self-promoting “servants of Jesus.”
BURNIE:
I won’t presume to answer for Andrew as to his source.
However, I will give you the historical source for this information. Some of it comes from one of the Church Fathers, Origen, who lived 185 – 254 A.D.
Further information comes from the historian Eusebius who lived 260-341 A.D. who gives us the most complete information of the Apostles’ martyrdom.
Since these authors lived within the first century or two after the death of the apostles, it is quite likely that the information which had been passed on to them is fairly accurate.
Foxes Book of Martyrs is likely more accessible to most people than the writings of Origen and Eusebius and the information of the death of the Apostles can be found there.
You can also find this info on numerous web sites.
Hope this helps,
Wayne
P.S. If Ray Ashmore was alive at the time of the above Church Fathers and knows that they were lying, I guess he has the right to call their records and writings “unverified” and “spurious.”
Or perhaps he has more reliable evidence that these Church Fathers were lying????
Wayne
Building upon Pastor Wayne’s comments I urge you to look at such sites as Voice of The Martyr’s (to which I belong). The Persecuted Church is indeed ‘alive and well’ today, indeed more than ever before. Throughout all of this persecution, Christ’s Church is growing phenomenally in such areas as Iran, Eritrea Pakistan and many other eastern and Asian countries.
Our turn will undoubtedly come. Meanwhile we are called to support our brothers and sisters who are undergoing such trials for our Living Lord.
In Christ,
John
http://www.persecution.net/
I can only hope and pray that if faced with such a terrible death, that I too would stand. He must have so owned the hearts of these men!!! After the last thread about the flakiness of the modern church, it really makes one wonder what on earth we have come to…..When I imagine myself faced with something like that, I believe His grace will meet any of us faced with martyrdom and and that grace will be enough to help us to die in a way that honours our king. Thanks for posting this…
Makes me wonder what they would have said to today’s “health, wealth and prosperity” gospels being preached?
Why does God allow this? Especially to be the end of the one who gave everything to Him in their lives? Why?
I work in the Middle East, and this endurance of faith continues to this day…by Arabs. You know, those people who much of the American church is prejudice against?
I know of two martyrs in the past two years, stabbed after refusing to recant, run over by a car for believing and discipling others. Countless stories of faith that “endures to the end” are happening all the time. 99% of them are not reported, but they are recorded in heaven to be revealed at the last Day.
Joie….I ask the same thing but I have to look at these scriptures to help me understand..it helps but I still have questions…I also think that what they went to was sooo far and above better than anything that we could ever imagine. And all said that since Jesus was crucified..they didn’t even feel worthy of that. Complete humility. I’m not sure I would do the same..to be totally honest.
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
1 John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Do we love our lives so much that we deny Jesus? We do it everyday and most of the time we do it willingly. Will we deny the movies we watch behind closed doors? How about our fleshly conversations that demean others, slander others, bring false accusations? Do we deny the books we read, the news we watch, the preaching that tickles our ears, the lust we are involved with…? If we love our life more than preaching the Gospel, declaring the Word of God, then we are not fit for the Kingdom. Are we willing to die for the Gospel? The days are here where you and I must make a decision to follow Jesus or the world and if you follow Jesus, then the world will hate you and want to kill you. Are we up to it or are we in love with ourselves? There is no fence sitting here. The time is now to make a quality decision to stand for righteousness and holiness and be willing to be persecuted and possibly be killed for your stand with Jesus. It is decision time.
Apostle Andrew was crucified on an ‘X’ shaped cross; and according to John 1:40-41, he was the First apostle to recognise Jesus as the Messiah–he led Simon (Peter) his brother to Him! Hardly anyone notices Andrew in the shadow of extrovert Peter, but my country Scotland is the only one in the U.K. with one of the actual Apostles of the Lamb as its patron saint. The blue field and white cross of Scotland’s flag commemorates Andrew (St. Andrew’s Cross) and makes up the outstanding background of the Union Jack. As far as early church “fathers” having reliable information…I would go with Eusebius more than Origen…Origen promoted several compromised doctrines, including mingling the philosophy of the pagan Greek philosopher Plato and the liberal “Jewish” philosopher Phylo (from Alexandria) into the interpretation of Scripture in John 1:1 ff. His ideas were later condemned but continued to be taught none-the-less. He also had several other wacky ideas. So it makes me wonder how reliable his other things are. I don’t trust him.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/mlsufferings.htm
…Christ’s sufferings should also be an example for your whole life, and you should meditate on the same in a different way. For hitherto we have considered Christ’s Passion as a sacrament that works in us and we suffer; now we consider it, that we also work, namely thus: if a day of sorrow or sickness weighs you down, think, how trifling that is, compared with the thorns and nails of Christ. If you must do or leave undone what is distasteful to you: think, how Christ was led hither and thither, bound and a captive. Does pride attack you: behold, how your Lord was mocked and disgraced with murderers. Do unchastity and lust thrust themselves against you: think, how bitter it was for Christ to have his tender flesh torn, pierced and beaten again and again. Do hatred and envy war against you, or do you seek vengeance: remember how Christ with many tears and cries prayed for you and all his enemies, who indeed had more reason to seek revenge. If trouble or whatever adversity of body or soul afflict you, strengthen your heart and say: Ah, why then should I not also suffer a little since my Lord sweat blood in the garden because of anxiety and grief? That would be a lazy, disgraceful servant who would wish to lie in his bed while his lord was compelled to battle with the pangs of death.
17. Behold, one can thus find in Christ strength and comfort against all vice and bad habits. That is the right observance of Christ’s Passion, and that is the fruit of his suffering, and he who exercises himself thus in the same does better than by hearing the whole Passion or reading all masses. And they are called true Christians who incorporate the life and name of Christ into their own life, as St. Paul says in Gal 5:24: “And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.” For Christ’s Passion must be dealt with not in words and a show, but in our lives and in truth. Thus St. Paul admonishes us in Heb. 12:3: “For consider
THE SERMONS OF MARTIN LUTHER, VOL. II, PAGE 192
him that hath endured such gainsaying of sinners against himself, that ye wax not weary, fainting in your souls;” and St. Peter in his 1st Epistle 4:1: “As Christ suffered in the flesh, arm ye yourselves also with the same mind.” But this kind of meditation is now out of use and very rare, although the Epistles of St. Paul and St. Peter are full of it. We have changed the essence into a mere show, and painted the meditation of Christ’s sufferings only in letters and on walls.
Forgot to say that the commentary below the link is from a sermon of Martin Luther called Christ’s Holy Sufferings
Thank God they did not die in vain as they did establish the foundations of the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” and handed down the “tradition” that is to be “held fast”. It’s too bad many today hate “tradition” as if it’s an ungodly thing, but the apostles themselves commanded that “tradition” was to be maintained and themselves handed down that “tradition”. Those who reject “tradition” refuse to follow the tradition of the Apostles and would rather follow their ‘OWN’ tradition that is not of God.
God has given us dominion. We can learn from the example of the apostles. When the Spirit was poured out, the church was in dominion. Those who attempted to join to the church were stricken dead by God: Ananias and Saphiras. When the church received a wrong spirit reflected in their “method of organization” – then they lost dominion. They were stricken dead by Satan through “his agents”. Let’s take Paul for an example of personal errors — beyond the errors of the church in general which could be spoken of in greater detail in how they lost KINGDOM DOMINION and the anointing of THE NATION OF GOD and the GOVERNMENT OF GOD on earth. Paul lost connection with the Head, Jesus Christ, and honored the OT priesthood as high priest. In reality, Jesus was the High Priest of God our Father at that time. The OT priest through whom he was struck was a priest of Satan not of God. Error. Paul stated he was a citizen of Rome. Error. We are citizens of Heaven under King Jesus by the Sovereignty of God – and thus in DOMINION over the Govts of man in Christ. Paul appealed to Ceasar. Error. Paul could have appealed to God the Father through the King Jesus Christ — and walked in dominion. (But other errors in the church contrary to KINGDOM DOMINION in which they MANIFESTED a wrong spirit in HUMAN GOVT would have to be repented of to be delivered of the wrong spirit of the devil also who infiltrated.)
The Apostle of Revelation 12 comes to manifest KINGDOM POWER AND AUTHORITY IN CHRIST in re-aligning the church with the POWER OF GOD’S THRONE through Jesus Christ alone rejecting all citizenship of this world — all organization of the church contrary to the REIGN OF JESUS CHRIST THROUGH THE SPIRIT ALONE — and releases the full stature move of transfiguration to bring the Kingdom… resulting in rapture.
The final apostolic ministry results in DEATH TO SELF and rapture… avoiding martyrdom in escape from Great Tribulation.
I study the ERRORS of the early to church — to learn HOW and WHY they “ended up martyred” rather than walking in the dominion that was theirs evidently manifested also in Ananias and Saphiras being stricken dead.
When we suffer the death of the cross and love not our lives unto death — then he who hates his life preserves it — and we transfigure and cannot be killed.
:)
*God bless – you asked for my comments. And this is a field of my study in the Lord’s training of me: errors of the early church resulting in martyrdom in Satan infiltrating the church and stripping the anointing of Kingdom dominion from the church. Which I come to restore in full power. God bless.
Perhaps I am cynical. I hear speaking of the endtime revival and how you will suffer persecution for it. And, I await you “picking up your stones” to throw them at me.
Ppl think others are religious — not themselves.
*I’m the Apostle of Revelation 12. I’ve come to release the final move of the Spirit that results in transfiguration/translation (commonly called “rapture”).
I just laugh.
Here come the stones of disbelief and rocks of offense!!
:)
There would be countless martyrs right today if true believers were to go to the denominational churches and preach the true gospel once delivered to the Saints.The leadership of the church would have you ushered out by armed guards(deacons) and tell you never come back.
Go to a pentecostal oneness church and try to share with them in an open forum their error of oneness and see what happens.Go to a catholic church and try to share in an open forum about their idolatress practices and see what happens.Never mind Mary worship and trinity beliefs.Try to go to almost any church and tell them practicing the given of tithe is not required and you are putting yourself under the law if you tithe and see what happens.There are many other examples I could use.You would see these people threatened and they would call the police on you.The (they) Jesus was referring to was the religious people.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, A servant is not greater than his lord. If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also.
Jesus went to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and they hated him.Today we should be going to the lost sheep of the house of the church but be prepared they will hate you.Thank God those that hear the call will come out.Organized Christianity will oppose you and hate you.You threaten their kingdom.
Joh 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.
The leadership of the church will respond just like the leadership of the Jews did to Jesus .Until we get on fire for God there will be no more martyrs
I am speaking of here in America.I am not speaking of China or other similar places of course.
One principle that I perceive is relevant for the end time church is that: Just as the disciples of the first century were martyred by the ‘Beast’ Romans so too the end time church will suffer and be martyred by the end time ‘Beast’. That just as John the Apostle was the only one who had a revelation of Christ’s crucifixion (i.e. he was the only one who remained there at this side when his master finally died (John 19:26)). So too his Lord delivered him from that last and final ‘test’.
Only 1 in 12 of the first disciples survived the original martyrdom and I believe that when our time comes only 1 in 12 will survive that great and final tribulation test before our Lord returns to meet us in the air. We will all ‘meet’ him in the air but by a similar ratio only 1 in 12 of us will be permitted to meet our Lord bodily.
The key to being alive to meet our Lord in the air will be Johns witness of Christ’s crucifixion. Paul talks about this insight in Phillipians 3:10 “10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.”
Such ‘know’ledge will be understood by those who are alive to the very end.
Hmmm. Looks like all of the Apostles were “out of God’s will”. After all, we all know that God wants each of us to have “our best life now”. Apparently they didn’t get the message. When Jesus said, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me” (Matt. 16:24), He really meant it. Unfortunately, today we are trying to build a generation of martyrs by attracting a generation of “religious consumers”. It is easy to talk “martyrdom” and “persecution” from the comfort of our padded church pews (or from a house church sofa). If you haven’t read David Platt’s book “Radical”, I would encourage you to do so. It is a good first step toward changing our thinking and our behavior. Good post, Andrew. Blessings.
You rarely see todays apostles or prophets going through this death. Lots of money, cars and those who idolize them but not much suffering. These rarely speak to anyone but the choir and I’ve often wondered why they aren’t in the streets instead of in a conference with known believers. Many nameless, faceless ones are martyred daily worldwide for their simple faith in Jesus. Something is seriously wrong.
I was born in the US and I am grateful don’t get me wrong, but when I think of my brothers and sisters in other countries who only have Jesus and each other, it makes me want to be with them. But then I asked myself, would I really be able to live like that? Don’t know but in this place, I can die to self daily. Many of us really have the heart to love God, love ourselves and love the Body of Christ, but this takes time…to really know God and others and becoming one. If we can’t die to self, how will be ever die for others? I pray that whatever comes our way, that we would be able to surrender to His Will. It is the only Life there is now and forever. Keep moving forward and don’t let the world or the “church” pull you off the Path of Life.
anaru All I could add to that is it really wasn’t Rome(the beast) that had a problem with Jesus,it was the apostate leadership of the Jews(Harlot).You are right history will repeat.The end time beast one world government will be used against the true believers by the apostate leadership of our day one world religion.The U.N.with the U.R.Then the beast will turn on the Harlot,just like Rome turned on the Jews in Jerusalem 70 A.D.Political correctness laws are soon going to be used against anyone who would dare speak up against sin.
MJBR…
That was very encouraging…I thank you for the post.
Did not realise Mark and Luke were Apostles, but I was wondering where Phillip and Simon were. Unless my Bible is wrong of course
1 Cor 4 talks about the LOT of TRUE APOSTLES – Jesus taught about Him sending HIS PROPHETS – …. you have to love the Lord to qualify to be a TRUE ONE – rejoicing in your suffering so that the POWER of MESSIAH will REST (and REMAIN) upon that person – will the REAL APOSTLES of the Lord Jesus CHRIST, stand up and be counted in every country in the EARTH, region by region and tribe by tribe, per GENESIS 49 – Duet 33 and per Matthew 10 and Revelation 7 – they match perfectly – Selah… bless (B-LESS as HE is more (increseas) and we simply yield to HIM within) ings to ALL… test all things – an opinion and hopefully, not mine, but YHVH’s through Me by His Spirit of Messiah… AMEN!
Yes our trials are minor compared to what the apostles went thru.John the baptist was left out of this list.He lost his head in prison because he told Herod it was not lawful for him to have Herodious,Phillips wife.In other words Herod was going into an adulterous 2nd marriage,Matt 14:1-12.I admire John.I wonder how many these days are prepared,like John the baptist,to speak out against the adulterous 2nd marriages that are flooding our churches these days and the Pastors are giving the silent nod and calling them new covenants whilst there is a pre-existing spouse still alive.
Many highly respected Christian leaders say its okay and many are caught in the terrible sin themselves.They say they are under grace.God forbid that we should continue in sin that grace should abound.Let us wake up in the churches because this sin will shut many out of heaven unless repented of and forsaken.
Let us seek to walk very close to the Lord and love and serve Him with all our hearts.The living hope for the Christian is the Lords return to take us His bride in the rapture.It would be terrible to miss that and be left behind to face the mark of the beast.
Blessing to all from Michael
I agree Les, the harlot will ‘betray’ the disciples, but in the same way that the Jews were not allowed to ‘crucify’ their criminals, so too the harlot church will betray Christ’s elect but then give these ‘Christ’ians over to the Beast’s authority to actually ‘implement’ their death. At that time “Brother will betray brother unto death…. etc…”. The purpose of these betrayals and the ensuing persecutions of Christ’s elect is to cleanse the church for eternity. We will ‘know’ our Master with garments washed clean in his blood. Just as Paul groaned inwardly about the mystery of such knowledge, so too will the final church ‘know’ its’ master groaning deeply as preparation for it’s union with Him in heaven.
It will be worth it all when we see Jesus. Seeing the smile on His face as He tells us, “well done though good & faithful servant.”
There is one thing to keep in mind. Rome wanted to get rid of the Christians and it got to the stage where they were being fed to the lions for sport.
The only problem was that for every Christian that was fed to the Lions ten others were converted to Christ in the stands.
If you are your Lords you will allow him to use you as he deems best.
LAURA: It’s interesting to see that “God” has chosen you to find all the errors in Scripture and correct them to conform with your perverted heresy of Dominionism.
Really??? What “god” or “lord” is this??? This certainly confirms how the destructive Dominion heresy perverts all it touches.
If you think God made mistakes when He had His Word written and that the Apostles were in error in the way they were led of God then the “god” you are following or allowing to lead you is not the Jehovah God of the Bible. His Words are perfect and without error. The foundation Christ and the Apostles set for the Church is not error.
If you accuse the Apostles of allowing Satan to conquer them because they were martyred, then logic demands that you must also accuse Christ of the same error for they only followed Christ in His sufferings and death.
If you think that God’s Kingdom is Christians taking dominion over this world in its present form, then you do not understand the Scriptures, the Kingdom of God, nor the Gospel.
Perhaps you should start your own religion and use something other than perverted interpretations of God’s Pure Word. On the other hand, if you wish to be a Christian, may I suggest you study to see what the Scriptures say about being born-again and being a disciple of Christ. Those things are contrary to the heresy you espouse.
If you wish to persist in your false form of Christianity, do me a favour – drop me a line in 20 years and let me know how its working for you.
Wayne
The evils of Dominionism are never far away these days. Its pride, self-exaltation and arrogance are the complete opposite of what Jesus and the apostles taught and lived.
Pastor Wayne..
I’ve been waiting allll day to see how you would respond to Laura. Hats off to you…
Tim…
totally agree
….pride, self-exaltation and arrogance…how the world runs. NOT how Jesus said to live nor how He lived.
It’s what Satan offers! The world gobbles it up..and now Dominion theology makes it sound like it’s from God.
If that’s the way we are supposed to live…Jesus wouldn’t have been crucified and the apostles would not have been murdered.
And Jesus wouldn’t have said to Peter…..
Matt. 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Highly recommend reading Foxe’s Book of Martyrs by John Foxe on the subject of martyrdom.
Solemn and sober warning to all:
There is coming a time not far from now when the true worshippers of God will be persecuted just like it happened in the dark ages if not a lot more worse this time when the apostate church (The Beast out of the Sea -Rev 13) and state(world government) become one and lord over the rest.
The wheels are already in motion, the beasts’ deadly wound is healing and most of us don’t have a clue about it.
All Christians, all believers, spirit filled or not, baptised or not, nominal believer or not, church going or not, bible believing or not will be a participant of persecution with the persecuting body(Beast out of the Sea) OR be the victim(martyr).
There will be only two choices and you will have to choose one. No fence sitters allowed.
We can hide for now under the cloaks of biblical and religious and theological knowledge, our differences of opinion and beliefs about the Word of God; what you choose to believe and omit, but there is coming a time everyone will be exposed.
Our life will depend on what we believe and all of us will be given a choice to deny Christ just like the apostle Peter.
Seems remote now, impossible, this will never happen, we are living in the land of the free, etc…
The bible has never been wrong.
“And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.”
-Rev 13:7-8
Thanks . God bless u man of God
“I’m thankful this morning that God chose me to be partaker of His Kingdom”
Thank you for your continued efforts as I find them most timely, pertinent and relevant no matter the topic(s). We incorporate much of what we receive into the flow of our group psyche. Blessings!
Oh Les, my heart skipped a beat, when you said:
“Political correctness laws are soon going to be used against anyone who would dare speak up against sin.”
Oh Lord, please let them not take that word and pervert or distort it. I need this word to continue to share the Gospel. My choice – freedom and liberty to proclaim Christ, or become an imprisoned slave, fearful and mute, grieving the Holy Spirit. I choose Christ. The suffering to endure will be nothing compared with the joy and reward of eternity with God.
Christ will come again to set up the Kingdom of God. His Kingdom will come, and His will will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
We are called to preach the Gospel of Christ to all nations. There is no promise of physical safety with it. As a matter of fact there is promise of many being martyred because of their stand, and work for the Lord.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
True martyrs do not cry out how long Lord til thou judge and avenge our blood.
True martyrs are likened to Yeshua who said, forgive them Father, they know not what they do.
Or like Stephen who, while being stoned to death, lay not this sin against them.
For more proof, go back and read the article above, of how they waited their turn and looked forward to it.
I think that what John wrote was to show some how they have adopted a spirit of pity, instead of embracing the cross.
Psa 55:1 To the chief Musician on Neginoth, Maschil, A Psalm of David. Give ear to my prayer, O God; and hide not thyself from my supplication.
Psa 55:2 Attend unto me, and hear me: I mourn in my complaint, and make a noise;
Psa 55:3 Because of the voice of the enemy, because of the oppression of the wicked: for they cast iniquity upon me, and in wrath they hate me.
Psa 55:4 My heart is sore pained within me: and the terrors of death are fallen upon me.
Psa 55:5 Fearfulness and trembling are come upon me, and horror hath overwhelmed me.
Psa 55:6 And I said, Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest.
Psa 55:7 Lo, then would I wander far off, and remain in the wilderness. Selah.
Psa 55:8 I would hasten my escape from the windy storm and tempest.
Psa 55:9 Destroy, O Lord, and divide their tongues: for I have seen violence and strife in the city.
Psa 55:10 Day and night they go about it upon the walls thereof: mischief also and sorrow are in the midst of it.
Psa 55:11 Wickedness is in the midst thereof: deceit and guile depart not from her streets.
Psa 55:12 For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
Psa 55:13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
Psa 55:14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.
Psa 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
Psa 55:18 He hath delivered my soul in peace from the battle that was against me: for there were many with me.
Psa 55:19 God shall hear, and afflict them, even he that abideth of old. Selah. Because they have no changes, therefore they fear not God.
Psa 55:20 He hath put forth his hands against such as be at peace with him: he hath broken his covenant.
Psa 55:21 The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords.
Psa 55:22 Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.
Psa 55:23 But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction: bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; but I will trust in thee.
Spiritual laws are always in motion.
God, who is long suffering allows time for man to repent.
The innocent is sacrificed for the guilty in many cases.
If one continues to sow to the flesh they reap corruption of the flesh, if they sow to the spirit, then they reap life, even in the face of death.
You have heard that it has been said to love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I/Yeshua says, love your enemies and bless those who curse you, and do good to those that hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and PERSECUTE you.
That ye may be the children of your Father in heaven…
Compassion for the suffering comes only when suffering has been gone through.
The west by and large has a high minded, pie in the sky view of persecution.
If the Lord cannot handle the honest cry of a suffering heart, then a lot of the scriptures would have to be removed. If the suffering saint cannot be real with Him, and come to Him for their comfort…then all is hopeless. There is no where in scripture where He rebukes such a plea. But there is plenty where He says He will give the grace to do what He has called the saint to walk through.
It is all vainity to somehow drum up a pious attitude about suffering. But it is to the glory of God to ask for the ability through His Spirit of praying for the enemy. And the ability to endure, remain faithful etc. The credit then is His not because it has been somehow drummed up from our own strength.
It was in my own strength that I asked Him to kill someone who was very ugly to me and others.
His reply to me was, I want you to ask Me to bless them.
I thought to myself, bless them? But did as He asked and in the beginning it came only from my lips, but when it was granted that it come from my heart, I was the one who was blessed
No man should take life as they can not give life, only God.
I await as do you and many others when people will learn war no more.
Which brings the conversation around again to the fact that our fight is not against flesh and blood. Sometimes I wish that I could have been a fly on the tree at the garden of Gethsamane. Wonder what was said by Jesus before he yielded to the Father’s will. Somehow I think it would have been very similar to Ps 55.
I think it will be awhile yet before the Prince of Peace comes to beat the swords into plowshares.
The scripture actually does say this
“Of whom the world was not worthy”….Hebrews 11:38
Many places claim the death of Simon the Zealot. One of those places is where I used to live. That is the Roman town of Caistor in Lincolnshire. The story is that he was crucified there. The church in this part of the world kept Sabbath and celebrated the Passover etc for many years. They were only stopped by the missionary efforts of Paulinus.
Just wish to point out that Stephen is missing from the list of martyrs, in fact he was the first to be martyred in church history.
After that, during the same period, two thousand early Christians were martyred with Nicanor the deacon as recorded in Acts.
The story of martyrdom continues until today.
We know from the annals of history that millions and million of Christians were killed for what they believed in during the dark ages. That number alone surpasses the number that died during world war one and two, yet very few know of it today.
Thanks to the work done by people Voice of Martyrs we know of modern day martyrs who put their lives at risk for sake of the Gospel.
Yet there is still a responsibility on the rest of us to be aware of what is taking shape on a global scale yet very few know of it.
The Beast out the Sea still exists today that same beast that persecuted the millions in the dark ages is still around preparing itself to go on the rampage again.
This time the Lord Jesus Christ himself to put an end to it.
INGETHSEMENE: You said: “We know from the annals of history that millions and million of Christians were killed for what they believed in during the dark ages. That number alone surpasses the number that died during world war one and two, yet very few know of it today.”
Another thing that many people do not know is that it was the primary Church at that time (the Roman Catholic Church) which was at the root of most of the martyrdoms.
It was the primary “church” of Christ’s day (the Pharisees and its ruling Sanhedrin) which promoted the crucifying of Christ.
Some of the most vicious opposition I have encountered has been from so-called “christian” ministers and prominent lay-people. Often they have been from liberal nominally Christian denominations. The ones whose lives I’ve had opportunity to observe over time have proven by their fruit that they were not born again. They were, however, very religious.
The point is, that one should not be surprised if a primary source of persecution – and even martyrdom – comes from those posing as Christians.
Christ stated that this would be the case (with at least some of His disciples) when He stated that some of them would be cast out of their religious buildings/institutions and the ones throwing the disciples out would think they were doing God’s will. (John 16:1-4).
God bless and keep pressing on toward the mark of the high calling in Christ Jesus.
Wayne
Laura you need to spend time with other christians who don’t think like you. If you only study from the information you get from like minded people you will never get to the real truth. I believe we should all attend conferences of other churches, denominations & people & we will find we don’t have patent rights on Gods Truth. Don’t go to find where they are wrong, go to listen & learn. You will be VERY suprised if you heart is really open to God.
Be Blessed
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I FEEL THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT IN DUNAMIS RELEASE commanding me to RELEASE REVELATION to the saints on this MESSAGE BOARD of DOMINION in the Lord Jesus Christ and the ERRORS OF THE EARLY APOSTLES that OPENED THE DOOR to SATAN RESULTING IN THEIR MARTYRDOM that we the BODY OF CHRIST under the APOSTOLIC MINISTRY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH THE APOSTLE OF REVELATION 12 SHALL “NOT MAKE”. The POWER IS SO GREAT I AM SHAKING UNDER THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT RIGHT NOW — as He has sent be BACK to speak further TO THOSE WHO HAVE EARS TO HEAR. So, Holy Father, thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as in Heaven. As I hear, I obey in Jesus’ name.
This was ONE of the GREATEST SINS of the early apostles that resulted in Satan being given power to martyr every one of them. (GOD in HIS SOVEREIGNTY had this RECORDED IN SCRIPTURE for us to LEARN FROM that we would BEWARE THE LEAVEN OF THE PHARISEES AND ATTAIN UNTO THE ENDTIME MOVE OF THE SPIRIT AND RAPTURE IN THE TIME APPOINTED, Pastor Wayne.)
Acts 6 (King James Version)
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Acts 6
King James Version (KJV)
Acts 6
1And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
2Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
3Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
5And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
The GREAT SIN HERE of the early apostles is how they separated themselves from the body establishing hierarchy in the body of Christ. Rather than serving the body to raise up the body of Christ into the same shared apostolic anointing — the apostles were TEMPTED OF SATAN to raise up hierarchy exalting themselves above the body as a “higher class” who were not to be bothered with such “petty things” as SERVING THE BODY IN LOVE.
The first deacon was STEPHEN — and SATAN WAS RELEASED THROUGH THE APOSTLES to make STEPHEN the FIRST MARTYR OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH in the LOSS OF DOMINION IN JESUS CHRIST.
The early apostles were commissioned of Jesus Christ to WASH THE FEET OF THE WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST AND SERVE THEM THAT THEY WOULD ALL BECOME APOSTOLIC TOGETHER UNTO THE FULL MEASURE OF THE FULL STATURE OF JESUS CHRIST.
They INVERTED THE ORDER OF THE SPIRIT IN THE SPIRIT OF THE DEVIL, IN PRIDE!!! THEY CREATED HIERARCHY!!! GOD WAS ANGRY WITH THEM!!! THOUGH THEY KNEW IT NOT!!
THE LEAVEN OF THE PHARISEES CAME INTO THE CHURCH!!
And the door was opened for the martyrdom of every apostle.
In the name of Jesus, the Apostle of Revelation 12 comes to declare the APOSTOLIC MINISTRY OF ALL SAINTS ONE AND ALL AS ONE BODY IN UNITY AND MATURITY WITH NO HIERARCHY NOR GOVERNMENT OF MAN — COME TO WASH THE FEET OF THE BODY — TO RAISE UP EVERY MEMBER UNTO THE FULL MEASURE OF THE FULL STATURE OF JESUS CHRIST ENDING ALL HUMAN GOVERNMENT AND HIERARCHY IN THE BODY OF CHRIST — ENDING THE OFFICES — IN THE FINAL OUTPOURING — AS ALL SAINTS ARISE UNTO THE PERFECT MAN.
Enough said for now. I have released greater revelation… someone touched God so that He commanded me to return.
Grace and peace.:
*If you would like to know what I do for a living in the SOVEREIGN PREDESTINATE WILL OF GOD – I am a WAITRESS… and I don’t drive even a nice car let alone have a JET PLANE — but I PRAY AND INTERCEDE FOR THE BODY OF CHRIST GLOBALLY PRAYING THE LORD’S PRAYER OVER THEM AND PLEADING THE BLOOD OF JESUS OVER THE BODY OF CHRIST GLOBALLY TO RELEASE TO THEM THE ENDTIME MOVE OF THE SPIRIT… for they overcame him by the word of their testimony (the LORD’S PRAYER – JESUS IS LORD – THY KINGDOM COME!! THY WILL BE DONE on earth as in Heaven — GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD… etc.) in accordance with the Sovereign will of my Father as a servant unto all.
*they overcame him by the word of their testimony and by the blood of Jesus — and I release the endtime move of the Spirit through intercession and REVERSING THE CURSE IN MY WILLINGNESS TO SERVE THE BODY IN LOVE — even unto being a WAITRESS — though I was offered a 6 figure salary in the world system on FAST TRACK to a 7 figure salary as an exec vp in a Fortune 100 company. BUT GOD WILLED ME TO REFUSE IT — and waitress for a living. God bless.
*the APOSTLE OF REVELATION 12 — SERVES TABLES!! PRAISE JESUS!! GLORY TO GOD IN THE HIGHEST!! THY KINGDOM COME!! THY WILL BE DONE!! ON EARTH AS IN HEAVEN!! FOR THINE IS THE KINGDOM THE POWER AND THE GLORY FOREVER AND EVER AMEN!!
:)
God bless — outta here… again.
Ian, you know not to whom you speak – you speak to the Apostle of Revelation 12 accorded the greatest revelation in church history and commissioned and called of God to release the FULL STATURE MOVE OF THE SPIRIT. When you come under my ministry and anointing — then you will learn things you know not and you will receive transfer of apostolic mantle unto apostolic level revelation and anointing.
Silly people with their rock throwing — persecuting the apostle whom God has sent.
Silly, silly Christians who think others are religious — not them.
I just laugh.
Nothing wrong with being a waitress.
Laura,
Not sure what you mean by you are the apostle of Rev.12.
As for the apostles of old who were martyred, their death did not separate them from Christ, which to me is the whole meaning of death, (to be separated from Christ) and yet logos says that nothing shall separate us from his love.
God is omnipresent which means He is everywhere.
Laura……WOW MAN, I have nothing to say
Anyone out there brave enough to answer that? Andrew, where are you???
The sad thing is the kingdom of Satan counterfeits the true working of God.
What has taken me back a little, is that here I was thinking that the occult infiltrating the church was for a farther future time, and here it has been happening for at least half a century.
It is also the work of Satan to make sure that any real miracles of God, or working of the Holy Spirit is labeled as false. That is how closely Satan tries to mimic the ways of God. Satan even uses certain terminology if the real saint of God uses, then is labeled false.
So there seems to be 2 fronts. Where Satan makes the false appear true, and the true appear false.
Getting up off the floor maybe??
The only way someone comes out of these things is through prayer. Not by logic or beating them with a god stick.
Just my thoughts, but there is mystery and purpose in martyrdom, in that their blood is not wasted, but rather is intercessory and cries out for vengeance in the form of mercy..His ways are higher than our ways so it stands to reason that this is true of His ideas about vengeance, that they are higher than man’s. But it’s also true that one can’t martyr or kill anyone in a glorified transfigured body..? there is no record that I have seen of anyone killing an angel. Jesus Christ died in the will of God, but before that He was mysteriously able to slip through an angry crowd who couldn’t seem to get a grip on Him, lol! It is sometimes the will of God that the powers and principalities be made a public spectacle of , such as at the crucifixion, and such as when followers are martyred. But I have pondered that the glory of the latter house will be greater than the former house and about the character of the latter outpouring. I do believe we can expect it will be greater than the early church.
But having said that I’m not sure i can see the manchild of Rev.12 as being one individual person, just as the woman who gave birth is not representative of a single person but a company of people.
The only way that I understand it is that dominion is government and the government was placed on Christ’s shoulders, which suggests that it is the mind of Christ, which is the mind of God, or fulness.
To have a government, one has a King/Ruler.
If the Kingdom is within us then also should be the mind of Christ, and so we should conduct ourselves accordingly to His rule in our lives which is by relationship to oneness.
We are to be a priestly people, as of rev.1:6 and 5:10.
Yes watchful,
Travail until Christ be formed in us. The transforming and renewing of the mind. The perfect man or spiritual man.
Ian…
just best to leave her be…if you argue with those who believe they’re here because God sent them….it just stirs them up, gets things waaaay off topic then Andrew shuts the thread down…which is a shame. I really enjoy hearing peoples points of view…..and there is always one in every bunch.
Meredeth,
I will add to that, What truly brings them out of such apostacy is not just prayer, but repenting, coming before the Lord, laying down self and all proclaimed words and ego, (which is self also) but to renounce everything of these type of things. We all must do that, that have been involved in these type of teachings and allowing the Holy Spirit to show them HIS TRUTH, not the perceived truth.
The Lord knows our hearts and as we purge unto HIM, HE will show us, He will open our eyes, and ears and show us where we have strayed.
Until that happens the person or persons will continue to proclaim things that they “think” are revelation from God.
All these people that are doing this type of thing are a mixture of teachings from all sorts of programs and people and ministries and habits.
We must totally empty ourselves and most of the time, Wait upon the Lord and when we do we don’t have to mouth off and proclaim this kind of stuff.
This is dominion teaching w/ a mixture of new age that christians have placed in their tool boxes and some think they have the authority to say these things when it is not coming from the Lord, Jesus Christ, our Savior.
(though they think it is)
There is no trying to convience them and to carry on is like you said —
By the way, I have received a great repentance e-mail from the website MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE,
It is an excellent article on Beth Moore, and the contemplative prayer movement she is preaching and teaching and leading many into false theology which emerges into catholic mystisism . I read the article from Worldview Weekend with Brannon Howse and it was excellent. Matter of fact the author truly came forward , repenting as she asked for forgiveness for leading people astray even though she didn’t realize it at the time. I guess it was her blogs from the past . Anyway, it is a GREAT article and it shows the love of someone that truly has My SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE Taking The Road Less Traveled and is willing to show people that we all sin, but that we all need to take responsiblity when we use our “voice” and others read what we write and that could lead them astray.
We are all learning and I hope people will go to this website and read what she has written. Beth Moore is extremely popular in the states and she has rippled through all the churches w/ her videos , her books and now her new age lingo of contemplative prayer, just like dominionism and NAR groups.
Have a good day.
There is that number twelve, and the word woman. Going through scripture it seems to indicate Israel, and the 12 tribes. God told Moses to give each tribe a rod, one of which bloomed into an almond tree.
Num 17:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and take of every one of them a rod according to the house of their fathers, of all their princes according to the house of their fathers twelve rods: write thou every man’s name upon his rod.
Num 17:8 And it came to pass, that on the morrow Moses went into the tabernacle of witness; and, behold, the rod of Aaron for the house of Levi was budded, and brought forth buds, and bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds.
As far as the man child goes, the only ones that I have found who have been caught up to heaven in the context of Israel is Jesus himself, and those who sing the song of Moses in Rev 15:
Revelation 15:2-4
2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
There are those those who are found in white around the throne of God after the 6th seal. This group seems to be different that the one in Rev 15 and not really associated with Israel
Revelation 7:9-12
King James Version (KJV)
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
I said this but said it wrong
Anyway, it is a GREAT article and it shows the love of someone that truly has My SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE Taking The Road Less Traveled and is willing to show people that we all sin, but that we all need to take responsiblity when we use our “voice” and others read what we write and that could lead them astray.
————————————————————————-
I meant to say, this woman truly has the heart of the Lord upon her to come back and retrack things she taught, or blogged or spoke at conferences to and the website I believe you can find it under My Sheep Hear My Voice Taking The road Less Traveled. If not you can find it under Worldview Weekend w/ Brannon Howse. There might be some other mistakes in my writing and I apologize for not being able to make it more clear.
My concern is that dominionism , new age that is and has entered into the churches and continues to go mainstream, no longer just one area, (which is the new agers goal, and emergent churches are truly coming into one huge stream of apostacy and we must truly be aware of all of this because we have to be able to discern it and it is filtered in little at a time. We must continue to read our bibles, ask for discernment and HIS WISDOM. And if there is any past opened area of our lives that have ventured into any of this stuff, we must repent, renounce and lay it upon our Lord to deliver us from it. — And He will as He sees our hearts for HIM and HIM Alone. There is much idolatry and ego that thinks they know it all and many will have to leave the groups that they have been running around with because they do not want to know the truth for the most part.
I hope I have explained this well.
Getting back to the subject … :-) The word ‘witnesses’ probably should be translated ‘martyrs’ as the Greek word for (a) witness is ‘martus’, according to Young’s Concordance.
So martyrdom goes with the territory of being a witness.
I believe that some are chosen to be martyrs, as Peter was. It says that Jesus spoke this to Peter, ‘signifying by what manner of death he shall glorify God’. (John 21.)
So, God was glorified in Peter’s martyrdom.
However, there is a TIME for everything.
Had the church at Jerusalem not been interceding fervently day and night for Peter’s release from prison, he would have died not glorifying God, but leaving work undone.
(Eg, putting God’s stamp of approval on outreach to Gentiles.)
Jesus, just before His martyrdom, prayed, “I glorified Thee on earth, having accomplished the work which Thou hast given me to do.”
I also believe that some Christians end up being martyred because they just were not wise, and obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Samson, for example.
He had an amazing God-given anointing, but he did not call upon the Lord except when he was in deep trouble.
So although he ends up in the ranks of the heroes of faith, his latter days were spent as a blind man working like an ox for his enemies.
We will soon have the opportunity to see for ourselves just how well our particular beliefs hold up in the reality of what is coming on the Earth. It is surely closing in quickly. Come Lord Jesus !!!
I think about how Peter denied Jesus three times and still argued with Jesus about John when He told him to feed His sheep. I don’t think everyone is “called” to be a martyr..if so I don’t think you would have anyone wanting to follow Jesus! Just being honest here. I look at Peter and his denial of Jesus but he was martyred and yet he never denied Jesus…I wonder if that were each one of us…if God gives us the strength in the moment to endure…like Stephen when he was being stoned?
I could tell you as I sit here in front of my computer in a warm house with plenty of food and every technological device at my fingertips..being very comfortable..that I could imagine myself being killed for my faith…but in that moment? …..I hope I would feel different…but I know God has grace for me.
What can you say.
Echoing the comment above tho, the Holy Spirit makes all the difference, so even if we feel like Peter when he denied Christ 3 times God can make us as ready as Peter finally was, ready for Martyrdom if that is Gods will.
Corrie Ten Boom once preached to a church in Africa whose members were awaiting the death sentance, some having already been executed. She told them what her human father had told her – that when she was going on a train journey as a child he didnt give her the fair until she was about to leave, and likewise when one faces challenges God doesnt always give us the ability to cope until the time for them actually arrives.
We cant even believe in Jesus without the Holy Spirit.
Steve…
Amen…there is peace in that..ya know? None of us know how we are going to die. I just hope I die well. Meaning…praises on my lips to the Lord Jesus and that I have peace that my life is in His hands now matter what the circumstance.
I don’t think God judges us on how we meet our end..that would go against everything He said in the bible
Good comments just given. Yes, Peter certainly wasn’t martyr material as he stood outside the high priest’s house. ! It takes an already inworked death to self, I should think, plus extra grace at the time, to give a person courage to stand firm for Christ even in the face of imminent martyrdom.
It’s no cake walk that we’re called to.
Our hearts have to be securely set on God, with our eyes on Eternity – the big picture – to be able to endure.
(Of course, I did not say we will ALL have to be martyred. But we all must deny ourselves, Jesus said, and die daily to selfishness.)
IF we are here when ‘the Mark’ becomes mandatory, THEN we will have to choose whether to give in to the pressure to bow to evil, OR take everything man will throw at us, even execution.
The difference in destination will be stark for Eternity.
But we can pray NOW for His mercy, and see what He will do. As in Luke 21 : 36.
I suppose I should point this out, No doubt here we go again.
When a false prophecy is received it does not mean that there is not the supernatural involved, or that the prophetic words uttered are not real. What false means is that it is not coming from Gods throne, it is coming from the demonic pretending to be an angel of light.
This is the reason the scriptures instruct us to test the spirit of Prophecy. It is not a suggestion or request but an instruction to do so. The Spirit carrying the prophecy is required to affirm that Jesus has come in the flesh and does now sit at the right hand of God on high.
What has to be understood is that Satan has set up an alternative Christian religion that is operating alongside the real with the intent of corrupting the real and drawing the deceived to its own ranks where the fallen saints are to be brought into bondage.
What those in bondage will experience will be real and will be of the supernatural but it will not be of God. It will be counterfeit. Those caught up in it will be the ones to whom Christ will say, I knew you not even though you proclaimed my name.
Those that do not test the spirit to ensure that they are in fact in service to the kingdom of God are going to end up as those in the above passage. Service to the counterfeit no matter how well intentioned is still service to the counterfeit. Not God. Just because you have the supernatural manifesting as ministry around you does not mean you have arrived and are not required to test and make sure you are hearing from the Lord and not a deceiving spirit.
I wrote an article about this subject some time back. There has always been a lot of opposition to it. The last thing Satan wants is the Saints testing the spirit
http://forum.narrowistheway.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=185&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=23f065c510fb1c55a44e737a6fbc39c1
LAURA: You have quoted part of Revelation 12:11 several times now – “They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony. . .”
Why do you not quote the rest of the verse, which says, “. . . and they did not love their lives to the death.” which speaks of martyrdom?
It is because to do so would contradict the deception in which you live, which states that only parts of God’s Word are true.
Why do you not accept God’s Word in it’s entirety?
Your posts indicate that you are indeed under strong deception and delusion. Why?
Have you been sitting under the aberrant teaching of false teachers who have taught you the lies you promote? Are you a person who has been diagnosed with psychiatric issues and have gone off your medications? Have you decided that you do not need others in the Body of Christ and you and your beliefs have become the standard of truth for your life rather than the Word of God?
Perhaps it is something else.
However, although I have never met you, I do care for you and must face you with the truth. You are so far out in left field that you’re not even in the stadium anymore. You definitely have delusions of grandeur and suppose yourself to have power from God. If you do have any supernatural power, it is not from God, but rather from Satan.
I beseech you to find a group of Bible-believing, Bible-teaching Christian believers and seek counsel and prayers from them. You are in desperate need of the Truth of God’s Word.
With love and prayers,
Wayne
TO ALL OTHER READERS:
I urge you to pray for Laura, as most of you, I’m sure, are aware of the spiritual deception in which she lives.
Somewhere, along the way, she has chosen to reject the Truth of the Word of God and has gone into strong deception and is now believing lies. See 2 Thessalonians 2:10; Romans 1:18, 21.
God bless you all,
Wayne
To those who have ears to hear:
You cannot transfer the anointing, only confirm that which has already been conferred.
Jordan,
You took the words out of my mouth– this is what I researched on yesterday. The anointing comes from God and it is He that anoints.
So you seen what I seen.
To those who have ears to hear:
You cannot transfer the anointing, only confirm that which has already been conferred.
What about Elijah and Elisha?
I urge you to pray for Laura, as most of you, I’m sure, are aware of the spiritual deception in which she lives.
Yes we can pray but the problem is that most people who become bound with a deception think in their minds that they do have the truth and it is a stronghold that is hard to break. No one who thinks they believe the truth wants to depart from what they think God has showed them.
Also there is the matter that someone who turns from the truth that God Himself will send them a delusion and they believe the lie rather then the truth.
Deception of any form is a real stronghold. People can be set free but most do not want to leave what they think is truth.
@ I believe,
This is what I found from the encyclopedia concerning Elijah and Elisha. I have not been able to to further study it, but according to this Elijah did not anoint Elisha. It further states that it is metaphorical.
If anyone else brings something different and I be wrong then I will apologize, as I only did a quick reference of what I posted, and it was not in depth.
(5) In what is known today as the Priestly Code, the high priest is spoken of as “anointed” (Ex 29:7; Le 4:3; 8:12), and, in passages regarded by some as later additions to the Priestly Code, other priests also are thus spoken of (Ex 30:30; 40:13-15). Elijah was told to anoint Elisha as a prophet (1Ki 19:16), but seems never to have done so. 1Ki 19:16 gives us the only recorded instance of such a thing as the anointing of a prophet. Isa 61:1 is purely metaphorical (compare Dillmann on Le 8:12-14 with ICC on Nu 3:3; see also Nowack, Lehrbuch der hebraischen Archaologie,II , 124).
Dear I believe – Yes, I thought about that also. But then I ran out of ideas and examples (NEW TESTAMENT?) there and then.
I understand that since within the realm of hermeneutics one cannot build a doctrine on an isolated Scripture (or interpretation thereof) it seemed prudent to to assert what one finds the case to be, unless solid Scriptural support shows otherwise. Like me, you are probably just asking the question – putting it out there so to speak. I posited my assertion, not merely because there is an absence of sound evidence to the contrary, but because I suspect that great damage and deception has been perpetuated through the unquestioning acceptance of this idea (transfer the anointing) resulting in making even the most intelligent of people, though I suspect prideful and/or religious, flock to other countries to receive this transfer from so called anointed, or in some cases anointed, people. Apart from this practice being covetous and pretentious, it borders on occult behaviour, ultimately exposing such people and their brothers and sisters, to satanic influence.
Let us think this through for a minute. Would most of these people really travel across the globe if there was no power to be transferred? Would they really travel the length and breadth of the earth just to hear sound doctrine?
Tina – praise the Lord for such confirmation on anointing. Interesting points also on anointing, Elijah/Elisha. It is worthy of further study when time permits. It’s already got me thinking. I’m thinking now that if God tells Elijah to anoint ELisha, that is a far cry from the idea of transferring that anointing. Once we get into that idea, we fall into the trap of designating an elite group, then there is the bloodline of the elite group, and the madness spreads from there. Pretty soon we have people telling us that their word is above the authority of the word of God – too late.
Why stop there, perhaps we can transfer the gifts? What then would be the need for the Holy Spirit?? We could be self sufficient Sons and Daughters. Oh wait, of course, that’s right, the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth…praise be to God He didn’t leave us as orphans – he gave us the Counsellor, the Helper, Comforter, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH.
From what I’ve found the Holy Spirit is sometimes given through the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8:18 (and likewise evil spirits can be transferred that way), but to me the danger is when man tries to make a formula out of this instead of being led by the Spirit, and so I think in terms of it not being our gift to give, but God’s.
I agree Wayne.
Laura, we pray for you, dear one. PS – I was a waiter, once.
Traveler – Was John talking about testing the ‘spirits’ of man? Or ‘demonic spirits’?
There is a danger with a thread like this one if misinterpreted.
The danger is that we might end up elevating people for their deeds. After all, apostles are just people, CHOSEN by God!
It is important to remember that the Apostle Peter, for example, denied Jesus three times. He obviously, at that stage in his walk with Jesus, would not have wanted to die because of his faith, let alone get involved in the choosing of how to die.
Only AFTER the Holy Spirit came to him, he was empowered to do what he did, including to seemingly without panicking accept his death as honour.
Jesus said: “Without me, you can do NOTHING!”
And since HE is really doing ALL of the good work in and through us, HE ALONE gets ALL the glory! God’s Word says that we are all chosen, but some are chosen for something special… Jesus handpicked the 12 disciples. (see also 1Cor.12: Are ALL Apostles? Do All have certain gifts?)
Bottomline: God IS sovereign!
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Mario…
Amen to that.
Mario – Jesus said many are CALLED but FEW are Chosen. Even the twelve were chosen out of many other disciples. The scriptures tell us in Luke 10:1 that Jesus had at least seventy other disciples who He appointed to go out and preach the kingdom of God.
Luke 6:12-16
“Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.”
Luke 10:1
“After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.”
Matthias and Barsabas were probably among these seventy who were with the Lord from the beginning, and as we know Matthias was chosen by the Lord to replace Judas as His apostle. And this appointment by the Lord fulfilled the prophecy of David written in the Psalms.
Acts 2:21-26
“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.”
‘Laying on of hands’ is among the elementary principles of Christ according to Hebrew 6:1-2, which every born-again, Holy-Spirit filled Christian is required to know. It was given for the purpose of blessing and or inaugurating a person for ministry/service. It was not given for baptizing anyone with the Holy Spirit as it is solely the office of Christ Jesus. There has been an abuse of this God ordained practice by apostles themselves:
• In Acts 8:17-18 we read that the apostles (Peter and John) when they had come to Samaria, prayed and laid hands on them for them to receive the Holy Spirit, those who had received the word of God and were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, but had not received the Holy Spirit.
• Acts 19:1-6 where we read about the apostle Paul laying hands on the twelve and they receiving the Holy Spirit.
• In Romans 1:11, where we read apostle Paul saying, ‘For I long to see you, that I MAY IMPART to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established’. Later though we find apostle Paul instructing Timothy to not to lay hands on anyone hastily in 1st Timothy 5:22.
Though God puts up with the ignorance and weaknesses of man, yet He never intended for man to take such an office, and Christ Jesus never stated that when the apostles/prophets lay hands on the people, that people will receive the Holy Spirit. Rather John the Baptist confessed that Christ Jesus is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit. References: Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33. Scripture records that Christ Jesus sought God the Father for everything including the selection of His twelve disciples. Yet we often see man trying to play God. God does not force His way on us, but wisdom tells us to yield to His direction in everything.
John the Baptist confessed that ‘A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven’, (John 3:27) and yet, we find ministers using it according to their whims and wishes. God introduced this practice to reveal His will and give validity to an appointment. Always, in every instance, we find, God choosing the person for service or the recipient for anointing . God instructed Moses to lay hands on Joshua (who was chosen of God and having the Holy Spirit) in the presence of all congregation to succeed Moses. – Numbers 27:15-23. Similarly, God instructed Elijah to anoint Elisha (again Elisha is chosen by God) to be his successor, and we read that Elijah instead of laying hands, he threw his mantle on Elisha. – 1st Kings 19:16, 19. In the Acts 13:2-3, we find the elders, after having fasted and prayed, laying hands on Barnabas and Saul, being chosen of the Holy Spirit. God through His Holy Spirit had instructed the apostles how, when and on whom to lay hands on. Therefore, in Acts 6:3-6, we find the apostles laying the guidelines for choosing a person for the work of ministry, and laying hands on Stephen and six others after having prayed for them.
In Christ,
Sheeja
I have a testimony concerning testing the spirits. The hope is that those who think they are hearing from the Lord will take heed of.
A little over 20 years ago I went head deep into the occult. After about 6 months or so of hearing from who I thought was God, someone sat me down at a table and started to read from 1Jn 4. When they came to the part about testing the spirit by asking if Jesus Christ came in the flesh I immediately fell on the floor in convulsions. That person stayed with me and prayed for 3 days binding and casting out the demons.
After those 3 days I was able to pray the Lord’s Prayer, and ask Jesus to forgive me, and I kept asking the Father to bind away any voices that came in the name of Jesus.
It has been a process and a journey to understand that the Word of God is not meant to only go to for more knowledge, but to apply it through prayer.
Over the course of these 20 years there has only been one Christian that has actually took the time to help me. All others, seemingly, who I have told this to have not listened to how I’ve managed through Christ to keep sane through it all. By no means have I arrived, but looking back through the years, I can see how the Lord has honored my following hard after Him.
As the church becomes more and more demonized, this teaching will be needed to help those who are working with those who have the prophetic gifts.
Please understand that this testing of the spirit is a first line of defense. Anything that we think we hear from the Lord has to line up with scripture because that is the acid test.
TyronePalmer
No not the man but the spirit that is giving the message to the man. It is the test of if the message coming is from the Holy Spirit or a deceiving spirit pretending to be the Holy Spirit .
A spirit medium will receive a real message but it is not coming from the Holy Spirit is it. It will be coming from a familiar spirit. Your false prophets are basically acting as spirit mediums.
Now this is important and a recent development that has only become an issue in very recent times. It would appear that the Son of Perdition or what we call the anti-christ is now currently on this earth. When you ask the spirit to confess that Jesus has come in the flesh now at this time it will reply in the affirmative because it is referring to this son of perdition. But if you go further and ask it to confess that Jesus now sits at the right hand of God on high it will not do so if it is a familiar spirit.
Time is a lot shorter than many think.
Put another way, because the false christ is now in this world we need to confirm which Christ the spirit is affirming. The real or the counterfeit.
Michelle – Thank you for sharing that testimony. May we all be ever sober, alert and vigilant, with the measure of discernment required to minister to those in need, and not be caught up in distractions and self interest.
Sheeja, good words, well stated points. “God through His Holy Spirit had instructed the apostles how, when and on whom to lay hands on.” So true – God does the instructing. We can do nothing without Him. Jesus only did that which he saw His Father doing. We do nothing of our own volition when it comes to appointing and anointing. These callings and enablings come from and are directed by, the Lord Himself.
Traveler-
That is something that I had not thought about before in the context of the anti-christ being on the world scene in the flesh. The true Spirit of the Lord will not deny the whole gospel of Christ.
Seated at the right hand side of the Father. Now you guys know why it is so important for the distinction between the Father and Jesus to be understood and held.
TyronePalmer wrote: Mario – Jesus said many are CALLED but FEW are Chosen.
————————————————————————————————
Tyrone,
when I wrote that we are all chosen I meant this in the sense that we were all chosen to be created by Him.
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will…”(Eph.1:4,5)
“…even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.”(Num.16:5)
“…the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself,”(Deut.7:6)
“So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.”(Matt.20:16)
“For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matt.22:14)
“And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.” (Mark 13:20)
“Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?”(Jn.6:17)
“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you…”(Jn.15:16)
“…but I have chosen you out of the world…” (Jn.15:19)
“And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee,…”(Acts22:14)
“But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”(2Thes.2:13/14)
“…and they that are with him are called, and chosen,..”(Rev.22:14)
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When it comes to our “choices” we could also look at some fundamental issues in a person’s life. For example: We do not have a choice when it comes to the colour of our skin or the parents we were given. Billy Graham’s son, Franklin, did not choose to be born white, and he did not choose his dad, neither did the young black teenager choose to be black and have a drug-dealer as a dad.
We do not choose the social surroundings we were born into, however, I am sure we all agree that these things will have some kind of an impact in a person’s life.
Anyhow, the point I was trying to make in my earlier post is that we must be careful not to give too much credit to man. It is His Holy Spirit who leads and empowers us to do the good stuff in our lives.
Blessings, and ALL 4 Jesus!
Mario
Traveler – Thank you for explaining that scripture to me in more detail, I understand that much better now.
Something else to consider though about testing the spirits, it can be harder to perceive the spirit at work when the words are in writing and the person is not in front of you to test the spirit speaking through them.
You are correct about the Beast of the Sea, the demonic spirit known as the ‘antichrist’ or ‘son of perdition’. He has been released from prison. The Lord showed that to me and my wife last year in July.
Sheeja – The apostles of Jesus did not abuse the ordinance of God. Jesus Christ still baptized the believers with the Holy Spirit, He just used the earthen vessels He had chosen, to work through. The Lord is the one laying on the hands and doing the healing etc… because the Spirit of God has complete control of the body that has been sanctified and set apart for God’s use.
‘Old Testament’ is a shadow of the ‘New Testament’, and ‘New Testament’ is the fulfillment of the ‘Old Testament’. They do not contradict each other, rather, they confirm one another. There is a parallelism that runs across in both. The ordinance of ‘Laying on of hands’ was given for blessing a person (48:14, 20); for transferring one’s guilt (Lev. 4:14-15); for setting apart for service (Num. 8:10-11); inaugurating a sucessor (Num. 27:18-23) and for healing theb sick (Matthew 9:18, Mark 16:18). Apart from these reasons, I am personally unaware of any other reasons, one is permitted to ‘lay hands on’ the other. Scripture does give a true record of everything that transpired, but everything that transpired was not based on the ‘truth’. We should never forget the fact that the apostles were men like us and fallible. When a successor for Moses had to be chosen, Moses asked God to do the choosing (Num.27:15-18), while the apostles took upon themselves to define who should take the place of ‘Judas Iscariot’ (Acts 1:21-26). We humans have a tendency to often get into the flesh, but God is merciful and my life is a testimony to it. Those born of God, knows the parameters and the set boundaries within which we are called to operate. Each one is called to walk according to the faith and revelation given to him. Shalom.
In Christ,
Sheeja
Laying on of hands…
Our past pastor and his wife were going to pray for a person at one of the church services when the Holy Spirit told the pastor’s wife NOT to touch the woman they were going to pray for. Now, the pastor’s wife happens to be the most affectionate hugger you can imagine. People love her for that friendly, lovingly hug.
You can guess that it was not easy for her with that kind of a personality to clearly hear and obey the command as TRULY coming from the Holy Spirit.
She dismissed it as a strange thought or voice.
After church they drove to another town and had to pull the car over because the pastor’s wife got violently sick. She very quickly realized her disobedience, and after her husband prayed for her and rebuked the evil spirit she quickly got back to normal.
There is nothing more important than to have discernment, to know His voice, and to obey His commands.
In Acts 19:13-16 we read how some Jews took matters into their own hands, trying to cast out evil spirits in Jesus Name. Boy, did they ever pay for it.
The devil does not have to listen to a man (his spirit). He only listens to God’s Holy Spirit, because he has to.
In Ezekiel 28 we read that satan is full of wisdom. I am sure he knows God’s Word better than any bible scholar and is also able to imitate His voice quite well.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
SHEEJA JOHN: You said, “[The laying on of hands] was not given for baptizing anyone with the Holy Spirit as it is solely the office of Christ Jesus. There has been an abuse of this God ordained practice by apostles themselves:”
I can understand how you may have come to that conclusion. However, I do believe that such a conclusion is not accurate or in kee[ing with what we see in all of Scripture.
First, you can find no Scripture which directly indicates that the way in which the apostles laid hands on people was wrong – it is simply your conclusion.
Second, believers are called to be “workers together with God” (2 Corinthians 6:1). He calls us to participate in His work – often to be His hands, His feet, His voice. Even though you have quoted Scripture which tells us that Christ is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit, there are times when believers are called upon by God to assist Him in His work. This seems to be the case as we do see the apostles laying hands upon people to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Other times all that was required was speaking the Truth about Christ as Peter did in Acts 10. He must have, however, laid hands upon Cornelius and his household in order to baptize them in water.
It is interesting that the writer of Hebrews seems to couple the doctrine of baptisms (plural) with the laying on of hands in Hebrews 6:2. If the apostles and other ministers of the Word laid hands on people to baptize them in water, then why should we be surprised to find them laying hands on people to be baptized in the Holy Spirit?
In Acts 13:2, 3, you rightly observe this co-operative work between God and the human vessels as the Holy Spirit directed those assembled to lay hands on Paul and Barnabas to separate them to the ministry to which they were called.
We definitely see this co-operation in the healing of people by believers. Christ laid His hands on people needing healing. Christ’s instructions to His disciples was that they would “lay hands upon the sick, and they will recover” (Mark 16:18). It should not surprise us that we see the apostles laying hands on the sick in the book of Acts.
We do not see Christ laying hands on people to be baptized in the Holy Spirit because the gift of the Holy Spirit could only be given after Christ ascended to heaven. If we have examples of the apostles ministering Christ by the laying on of hands for people to receive the Baptism, it is reasonable to conclude that either it fit in with Christ’s example of laying on of hands or it was the Holy Spirit Himself which directed them to do so.
It is true that Paul instructed Timothy to not lay hands on anyone hastily or carelessly (1 Timothy 5:22). It is also true that Paul reminded Timothy “I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.” (2 Timothy 1:6). So Paul was not forbidding the laying on of hands, but simply giving a caution not to do so indiscriminately. Mario’s example above is an excellent example of this principle.
I trust this helps us to better understand the foundational doctrine of laying on of hands (Hebrews 6:2).
God bless,
Wayne
Sheeja – I’ve heard other people say the apostles took it upon themselves to choose Matthias but that would be outright saying the scriptures written are not true. Do you believe 2nd Tim 3:16? ‘All Scripture is given by inspiration of God……’
When Matthias was chosen by the Lord as the scriptures say, it fulfilled the prophecy of David written in the Psalms, the same way the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost fulfilled the prophecy of Joel.
Acts 1:15-20
“And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.” (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.) “For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’; and, ‘Let another take his office.’
Restoration movement or Kingdom now theology. This is a viewpoint, rejecting the eschatology of disaster (i.e. that the end of this age would come with a disaster), and seeing the church go out in a blaze of glory, having demonstrated the power of Jesus Christ over Satan in a great end time revival which would sweep the earth in preparation for the Lords return. This is the post-millennial view (i.e. that Jesus returns after – post – the millennial kingdom has been established by the triumph of the church). This is not biblical. The bible says that the Kingdom will be given to the Saints of the most high at Christ’s return.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
The apostles did receive terrible abuse and death, at the hands of the bondwoman’s children which are all those who are outside of Christ as they are now, and trying to get there by their works.
There has been more saints martyred by the whore system (Catholicism), than any other institution or dictator. We need to read about the saints who dared to publish or read the scriptures and gain understanding and truth for them selves, and were burnt at the stake. Others who were slain by this system number around one hundred and fifty million.
In Christ,
Bruce.
The laying on of hands…
The account of ‘Simon the Sorcerer’ is an apt example as to why one should not lay hands on anybody for any reason by volition. We know from Acts 8: 9-24, that Simon the Sorcerer believed in the gospel and was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Do we really know what he believed and why he was baptized? The verses 18-19 prove that he never had a genuine repentance and a true conversion. God’s grace, that his folly was evident before the apostles laid hands on him. At this juncture, the verses from 1st Samuel 16:7 come to mind. ‘But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have refused him. FOR THE LORD DOES NOT SEE AS MAN SEES; FOR THE MAN LOOKS AT THE OUTWARD APPEARANCE, BUT THE LORD LOOKS AT THE HEART.”’
God does not need a human vessel to baptize anyone with the Holy Spirit. God baptizes at His discretion, in His time. The following Scriptures will prove the point:
• “And it shall come to pass afterward that I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions; and also on My men-servants and on My maid-servants I will pour out My Spirit on those days.”- Joel 2:28-29
• Now when the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And THEY WERE ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. – Acts 2:1-4
• Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, HE POURED OUT THIS WHICH YOU SEE NOW AND HEAR. – Acts 2:33
• While Peter was still speaking these words, the HOLY SPIRIT FELL UPON THOSE WHO HEARD THE WORD. – Acts 10:44
Now what do we mean by a ‘Church’? Is it not the gathering of the born-again, Holy Spirit filled people? And, if it indeed was the assembly of born-again, Holy Spirit filled Christians, how could anyone creep in unnoticed? For Jude says in verse 4, ‘for certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ’. What possibly could have gone wrong apart from the abuse of ‘laying on of hands’ for the purpose of baptizing with the Holy Spirit?
A few Scriptures from the Old Testament to prove that God is responsible for baptizing/ filling a person with God’s Spirit/ Holy Spirit:
• And Moses said to the children of Israel, “See the Lord has called by name Bezaleel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship. – Exodus 35:31
• And the Lord said to Moses: “Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, A MAN IN WHOM IS THE SPIRIT, and lay your hand on him. – Numbers 27:18
• Then Samuel took a flask of oil and poured it on His head, and kissed him and said: “IS IT NOT BECAUSE THE LORD HAS ANOINTED YOU commander over His inheritance? 1st Samuel 10:
• “Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. – 1st Samuel 10:6
• When they came there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him; then the spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. – 1st Samuel 10:10
• Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. 1st Samuel 16:13
I leave it here for the discretion of those who read it.
All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God…
Paul says that ‘All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God’ in 2nd Timothy 3:16. Are all books of the New Testament inspired by God? Let us check it out by studying the following verses:
• IN AS MUCH AS MANY HAVE TAKEN IN HAND TO SET IN ORDER A NARRATIVE OF THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE MOST SURELY BELIEVED AMONG US, just as those who from the beginning were eye witnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, IT SEEMED GOOD TO ME ALSO, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, TO WRITE TO YOU AN ORDERLY ACCOUNT, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed. – Luke 1:1-4
• THE FORMER ACCOUNT I MADE O THEOPHILUS, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. – Acts 1:1-3
• “Beloved I NOW WRITE TO YOU this second epistle (in both of which I STIR UP YOUR MIND BY WAY OF REMINDER), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour.” – 2nd Peter 3:1-2.
• Beloved, while I WAS VERY DILIGENT TO WRITE TO YOU concerning our common salvation, I FOUND IT NECESSARY TO WRITE TO YOU exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints…..BUT I WANT TO REMIND YOU, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. – Jude:3 & 5
Paul in his first letter to Thessalonians wrote, ‘FOR THIS WE SAY TO YOU BY THE WORD OF THE LORD that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.’ – Thessalonians 4:15. If everything he wrote was God breathed, then why does he specify by saying, ‘For this we say to you by the word of the Lord’.
What do you think about the following verse; is it God inspired?
• “But from those who seemed to be something whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me…” – Galatians 2:6
While reading the epistles of the apostles, it will do good, if we pay attention to all the ‘I’s.
And now consider the following verse in Revelation 1:10-11:
• I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last’’, and WHAT YOU SEE, WRITE IN A BOOK AND SEND IT TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES IN ASIA…”
I leave it for the discretion of those who read it.
SHEEJA JOHN
In your last post you seem to be saying that certain parts of Scripture are NOT inspired by God.
I’m not sure if this is your position – it is difficult for me to follow your line of thinking in your post.
In case you are presenting the possibility that there are parts of Scripture which are NOT inspired by God, then the question I have for you is this:
BY WHAT STANDARD DO YOU DETERMINE WHAT IS AND WHAT ISN’T INSPIRED????
Are we to accept YOUR SUBJECTIVE choices?
If one takes the position that certain parts of Scripture are not inspired of God, then where does one stop in deleting parts of Scripture as not being inspired?
These are some of the problems one encounters when one decides to eliminate some parts of Scripture because one deems them to not be inspired.
If that is your position, then I would suggest that it is extremely presumptuous and prideful on your part.
Believers (many of greater spiritual stature than you or I) for centuries have accepted the books of canon we have today. If you consider your evaluations to be greater than theirs, you can believe whatever you like – to your own peril (both here and in eternity).
However, you should not ignore the evaluation of the Apostle Peter who lived and learned directly from Jesus Christ. This evaluation was made near the end of Peter’s life, so he also had the advantage of time and age to come to his conclusion.
What evaluation and conclusion? Where Peter INCLUDED the Apostle Paul’s writings as inspired Scripture in 2 Peter 3:15, 16.
To the brothers and sisters following this site: I urge you to reject this preposterous presumption that certain parts of Scripture are NOT inspired by God. Such lies originate with the father of lies and belong more to the realm of liberal, unregenerate theologians than in the midst of those who love the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word – just as He authored it, preserved it, and has graciously made it available to us today.
God bless,
Wayne
Pastor Wayne,
Could you expand for us, the original Greek meaning of ” ALL” in ….all scripture is given by inspiration of God…..
Is it saying ‘some’, ‘part’ ‘all scripture in red ink’ or
as we interpret it,
– every tittle and jot of the Holy Scripture? -
That should settle the matter – I think.
Thanks,
David Marsh
Sheeja John,
I am inclined to think that you have not had very much of a relationship with God’s Holy Spirit.
Most of us here could recount the numerous times that we have asked the Lord to help us or guide us in a certain matter.
And then afterwards, when the matter has been resolved, we realise and see that it was God’s Hand who guided a conversation or action – that resolved the matter.
I, personally, have no problem with Paul’s penned words of scripture, however they are put.
Very often, we do not realise it is God, until after the event.
Perhaps you have an expectation that God only speaks through men with a “thus says the Lord”
Perhaps you should reconsider your views,
God bless you
David Marsh.
Sheeja John,
I have one last suggestion that might just help you to settle this matter in your heart.
You might try googling the research of a brilliant mathematician by the name of IVAN PANIN.
( Bible Numerics by Ivan Panin.)
Panin discovered at the turn of the 20th Century – the unbelievably – intricate mathematical patterns woven into the scriptures.
The Hebrew and Greek alphabets were assigned numerical values when they were ‘invented’.
Panin discovered that it would take an ordinary man an impossible length of time to compose a short book with these mathematical principles woven in.
He also then showed that the 66 books, which were written some 4,000 years apart were also mathematically woven together.
Panin drives home the point, very succinctly, that it is impossible that any man could have ever authored those words.
Panin was also called upon in his years to prove, beyond a doubt, that the added ‘scripture’ contained within the catholic doctrine are baseless and false. None of them showed any of the mathematical brilliance that is contained in the true scriptures.
Hope that is of some help for you.
God bless you
David Marsh.
DAVID MARSH
Your question is a good one. Within the realm of Christianity there are some who do believe that only Christ’s words in red carry any authority. There are others who accept the Gospels, but not the epistles as being authoritative.
So varied is the thinking and so muddled are some people’s thinking about the authority of Scripture and how to interpret it that I am currently in the process of writing a book to help the average Christian believer to interpret Scripture well and with solidly grounded principles.
I will endeavour to do my best to answer your inquiry.
2 Timothy 3:16 states, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God . . .”
The Greek word for “all” is “πᾶς pas” an adjective which means “all, every, each, everyone, everything..” The Amplified Bible and several other translations translate it “every Scripture.”
The Greek word for “Scripture” is “γραφή graphē” a noun meaning “Writing, Holy Scripture.” It is a word which contributes to several English words such as “autoGRAPH” or “paraGRAPH.”
Every time it is used in the New Testament it has been interpreted “Scripture.”
The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Alpha-Gamma” referring to the use of “γραφή graphē” talks about the VERY WRITING ITSELF BEING INSPIRED:
“At the same time, the Holy Scriptures are not solely a human endeavor. The very arrangement and composition of Scripture were guided by God. This includes not only the telling of history but the Spirit-inspired prophecies and the words of Jesus. Holy Scriptures are not merely human comments and divinely inspired speech; the very writing itself is inspired.”
While Christ was referring to the Old Testament Scriptures, He confirmed the fact that each pen stroke was inspired when He stated in Matthew 5:18, “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” The “jot’ and “tittle” are the smallest of marks in the Hebrew language. It would be similar to us saying, “every dotting of the “i” and crossing of the “t” referring to an English writing.
I believe that what the Bible says about itself is true and sufficient to satisfy any questions I would have about its authority, inspiration and authenticity. I don’t need numerics to prove to me the inspiration of the Bible. However, such evidence certainly adds to the fact that EVERY word and part of the writing was inspired and directed by God’s Spirit as the ultimate author of the Scriptures.
I trust this answers your inquiry David.
May God richly bless you as you labour with Him,
Wayne
Pastor Wayne
Quote.
“I believe that what the Bible says about itself is true and sufficient to satisfy any questions I would have about its authority, inspiration and authenticity. I don’t need numerics to prove to me the inspiration of the Bible. However, such evidence certainly adds to the fact that EVERY word and part of the writing was inspired and directed by God’s Spirit as the ultimate author of the Scriptures.”
Could you please tell me on what manuscripts or bible version do you base these facts on? In my experience the only manuscripts that fit the description that you are saying is the textus receptus the manuscripts that the KJV bible comes from.
In Christ,
Bruce.
Bruce Skelton,
There have been literally thousand of manuscripts which have been discovered since the Textus Receptus was used for the partial translation of the original KJV (which almost no one uses today because the Old English in which it was originally printed is unreadable by most English-speaking people).
There has been a branch of science which studies these manuscripts (at last count I believe it was over 8,000). Using this principled method of study, they have about a 99.999% certainty that they have arrived at what the original autographs said.
Even with the errors which exist in the KJV, none of them seriously affect any of the major doctrines – and certainly nothing which is necessary for the doctrines affecting salvation.
Having done hundreds of hours of study regarding the reliability of various manuscripts and translations, I would have to say that it is virtually impossible to come up with an English version which is a complete translation of what the original autographs would have said to the people to whom they were written.,
This is not due to any deficiency with the original autographs, but rather with the problems inherent in translating one language into another language. I have studied six languages and each language has its own phrases which can be difficult to translate into another language. What can be said in a few words in one language could take hundreds of words to adequately translate into another language. In some cases it is almost impossible to adequately understand something which is said in one language without also understanding certain things about their culture as well.
This makes for difficulties in coming up with an adequate English translation of the Bible.
Some translations come close to expressing much of the meaning the original autographs would have had to the people in those cultures. Some of these are the Hebrew-Greek-English Interlinear, the Amplified Bible, the New American Standard Bible and the English Standard Version. These ones are often cumbersome to read and are better for indepth study.
Other translations are much more readable – even though they may not be as accurate for a word-for-word translation. Some of these are the New International Version, and the New Living Translation. These translations translate more thought-for-thought, rather than word-for-word. In some parts they give a better understanding of what it would have meant to the original readers.
Additionally, there are some translations which have been translated from a biased position. For example, the New American Bible and the New Jerusalem Bible were translated by Roman Catholic scholars; some translations are written from a conservative evangelical position such as the New American Standard Bible and the Holman Christian Standard Bible; some are written from a liberal bias such as The Good News Bible.
There are some which are really out in left field such as the Jehovah’s Witness New World Translation and The Message, a so-called paraphrase by Eugene Peterson (which many translators consider to be so poor that it doesn’t even rate as a decent commentary).
I have studied the origianl languages and also have about 60 – 70 different English Versions which I consult for serious Bible study. My favourite for memorization is the KJV and the one I usually read from is the NKJV.
I sense from your wording that you may lean toward the King James version Only philosophy. If you do, I do not wish to get into a debate with you on this site. You can write to me personally at my email – pastor@gatm.ca. If this is your intention. I should tell you ahead of time that I have studied this philosophy in excess of 500 hours from both sides. I used to be KJV Only until I did indepth study and the Holy Spirit caused the scales to fall from my eyes and cause me see the error of the KJV Only philosophy.
God bless,
Wayne
I respect all three, Sheeja John, Wayne and David. All three have a trust and faith in God that provide for us a powerful testimony of the Lord’s grace in their lives. How do I know this? Because a couple of months ago after I posted some thoughts, 4 people wrote to my personal email – three of those four are those mentioned above.
To back track a little, I would simply ask Sheeja to expand on her third post of 13 February, as this one drew the most controversy. Let’s take care how we direct our questions; line upon line, precept upon precept…
On 13/2 – Sheeja said:
“Scripture does give a true record of everything that transpired, but everything that transpired was not based on the ‘truth’.” That statement requires expansion and exampling to see what exactly is the idea being presented here.
With regards to choosing,
SJ writes, “we should never forget the fact that the apostles were men like us and fallible.” That alone is true. However, coupled with statements about what Apostle Paul wrote, can be miscontrued as, ‘their writings’ are fallible’. This then requires careful examination and explanation. (See my questions below).
13/2
Wayne writes: “SHEEJA JOHN In your last post you seem to be saying that certain parts of Scripture are NOT inspired by God.
I’m not sure if this is your position – it is difficult for me to follow your line of thinking in your post.”
Fair comment, though I emphasise the phrase, “seem to be saying”.
David writes, “Sheeja John, I am inclined to think that you have not had very much of a relationship with God’s Holy Spirit”. Tough words David, but somewhat understandable if we think the authority of the word is in question.
Knowing that all three have a deep relationship with the Lord, let us ask, more specifically, questions like:
Are you saying that the Apostles’ writings are also fallible? And if so, in what way are they fallible? Are you saying their observations are fallible? Are you saying their experiences are fallible? What about their quotations of Scripture, are they fallible?
Or, How do you interact with God and His word in your daily living, including prayer, praise and responding to His commands.
The questions go on and on – the more questions that can be answered the greater the accuracy of our perception of another person’s relationship.
Now I do say that God’s word is the final authority in matters of faith and practice. However, how some people interpret God’s word in matters of practice, may differ depending upon their understanding of His will and intention. That, I suppose, is about growing in the grace and the knowledge of our Lord.
Another question for me and us: Do we seek to be faithful to God’s word and His commands?
I’m sure we all agree that all ‘Scripture’ is given by inspiration of God, unless someone out there disagrees.
SInce we take line upon line (and there are many lines written) we hope to be faithful to all that the Lord reveals to us, His word is supreme.
“Unless Your law had been my delight, I would then have perished in my affliction.” (Psalm 119:92)
I am sure that each one here can relate to that.
“You through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies; for they are ever with me.” (Psalm 119:98)
“Through your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.” (Psalm 119:104)
We are passionate for His word because “the words He speaks, they are spirit and life.”
Let us “worship Him in Spirit and in truth.”
Grace and peace to all.
Jordan Shepherd said:
To back track a little, I would simply ask Sheeja to expand on her third post of 13 February, as this one drew the most controversy. Let’s take care how we direct our questions; line upon line, precept upon precept…
On 13/2 – Sheeja said:
“Scripture does give a true record of everything that transpired, but everything that transpired was not based on the ‘truth’.” That statement requires expansion and exampling to see what exactly is the idea being presented here.
The account of Paul confronting Peter as mentioned in Galatians 2:11-14 was an incident that took place (a true record) but what transpired in that account was not inspired of God (their actions were not based on the truth). Apostle Peter was wrong in playing the hypocrite and apostle Paul was wrong in the way he handled Peter. Apostle Paul could have confronted Peter one-on-one, and it would have led Peter to acknowledge and confess himself before others that he was wrong. And that could have had a powerful impact on those around who witnessed it.
Similarly, the account of Barnabas and apostle Paul having a contention over John called Mark as mentioned in Acts 15:36-41, is a true incident (a true record), but the very incident was not inspired by God. Contention arises as a result of differences in opinion and ego. Somebody was wrong, for the contention to occur in the first place. And later, toward the end of his life, we see apostle Paul requesting Timothy to bring Mark along with him. (2nd Timothy 4:11).
———————————————————————————————————————
Jordan Shepherd raised few questions:
With regards to choosing,
SJ writes, “we should never forget the fact that the apostles were men like us and fallible.” That alone is true. However, coupled with statements about what Apostle Paul wrote, can be miscontrued as, ‘their writings’ are fallible’. This then requires careful examination and explanation. (See my questions below).
Are you saying that the Apostles’ writings are also fallible? And if so, in what way are they fallible? Are you saying their observations are fallible? Are you saying their experiences are fallible? What about their quotations of Scripture, are they fallible?
Or, How do you interact with God and His word in your daily living, including prayer, praise and responding to His commands.
Another question for me and us: Do we seek to be faithful to God’s word and His commands?
The very purpose of God putting His laws in our minds and writing them on our hearts (Ref. Jeremiah 31:33-34 and Hebrews 10:16-17) in the New Covenant was for us to discern His Word, ‘the Truth’ from the error. How much ever Satan tries to twist the Word of God, those born of God are able to discern between that which is of God and that which is not. We have God given conscience, the Old Testament and the Holy Spirit to help us discern. Each of us can testify about people whom we have known closely for a long period of time. We know the way they think and operate. Similarly, if we have walked in close fellowship with God for a long period, and have the mind of Christ, and His Holy Spirit guiding us, we will know, whether, what we read/hear/see has proceeded from God or not. It is beyond me to imagine God’s Spirit inspiring apostle Paul to write the following:
• “But from those who seemed to be something whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me…” – Galatians 2:6
Now, when Paul wrote 2nd Timothy 3:16, was he referring to his own epistles or to the Old Testament and the commandments given by the Holy Spirit through the apostles, or to all the epistles that were being circulated during his time? One can reason and arrive at a conclusion depending on one’s understanding. Was there a ‘New Testament’ available to them then, as the one we have now? Some may quote 2nd Peter 3:15-16 that reads,
• …as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking IN THEM of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they also do the rest of the Scriptures.
It will be good if we focus on the words, ‘speaking IN THEM of these things’ in the above verse. What do you infer from those words? Paul’s epistles contain revelations, instructions, commandments, commandment/Word from God, his personal experiences coupled with his emotions and personal reactions to the events. Would you call ‘all’ of the contents in the epistle as the inspired word of God, or those that are truly inspired Word of God? Those who read can exercise their own discretion.
Finally, we are called to be faithful only to God’s Word and His commands, and not to the traditions/beliefs of man.
In Christ,
Sheeja
Jordan Shepard,
Well said above– I have respect for you and the three mentioned above as well.
One thing I keep in mind is there is the milk of the word, and the bread and meat of the word, and thus try and find this in the posts of which I read.
For instance, the passage of scripture of 1Ti.4:3 speaks of forbidding to marry and abstaining from meats which God has created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
In reading this passage of scripture in the natural, we can sure see where this is something that is prevalent in this day and time. People do not want to marry, but shack up as it is called, however I feel the Lord let me to see something else in it and when I have shared it in the past, rocks were thrown at me as well.
What I seen in that passage was that we want to use His Name but not be married to Him, thus forbidding to marry. Well I marveled at that which I had received, but then was taken further. The passage of scripture that states 7 women to a man as mentioned in Is.4:1.
Again I was astounded at what I was being shown, and then was given the 7 churches of rev. to be those 7 women of Is. The true church being the one at Philadelphia that does marry.
Of the abstaining of meat, I seen that this is applied to
what Yeshua said when He said His MEAT was to do the will of God, and that the scripture was speaking of this abstaining from the will of God more than abstaining from literal meat.
As for scripture being the inspiration of God, I was inspired when I seen the spiritual aspect of the above but in the natural I can not say that I was.
As for one thing that Sheeja mentioned, I had asked this question myself– why didn’t the apostles just ask the Lord who was to replace Judas and wait for the answer instead of casting lots?
I thought in my mind that if they had waited would they have been given a revelation that Paul was to be the one?
There is a lot I don’t understand, but for sure one way to test the epistles, is by whether they agree with the Old Testament.. over and over again I have found wonderful confirmation of the New by looking in the Old. For me it’s helpful to realize that the entire gospel is contained in the Old Testament, and that the New Testament really is a revealing of the Old, in a manner of speaking.
If I would add one more question to your list Jordan, I would ask, “were the authors of the epistles in possession of the pure gospel of Jesus Christ?” If the answer is yes, then that is good enough for me that they wrote to the churches accordingly, and that what they wrote is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and instruction in righteousness. (coupled with knowing who those authors were, that they had been chosen by Jesus and had walked with him, etc.)
Goes without saying though that we need the Holy Spirit to open the scriptures, all of them, to our understanding.
I think we all agree that the apostles were mere men who were not infallible, but – and this is only my opinion – if they made any mistakes it would not have been in doctrine as concerns the gospel, but only possibly in outward things, like behaviour, or in a misstep that might have been taken, which also would have been recorded in the wisdom and way of the Lord, for us to profit from with the help of His Spirit. (we know that even in our mistakes He has gone before us, and is sovereign in the things that are allowed under His heaven.)
Teshuva said:
“why didn’t the apostles just ask the Lord who was to replace Judas and wait for the answer instead of casting lots?
I thought in my mind that if they had waited would they have been given a revelation that Paul was to be the one?”
————
Paul didn’t see himself as being Judas’s replacement. Paul recognised “the twelve” and didn’t include himself in that number (1 Cor 15:5).
The replacement for Judas was someone who had been with Jesus from the beginning and had personally witnessed his ministry and heard His teaching and was a witness to His resurrection.(Acts 1:21) Paul didn’t fulfil most of those conditions.
Also the idea that Paul should have been included in the twelve (as Judas replacement) seems to assume that there were only intended to be 12 apostles. That is not the case – scripture actually names (as apostles) others who were not in the twelve so there’s no reason to think that Paul needs to be included in the 12.
Tim,
Thank you for your answer, but I have always been puzzled why they cast lots. I just picked Paul because he seemed to have made the greatest impact, even though he did not fulfill the conditions.
I see that scripture never questions the choice of Mathias and in fact seems to accept it without question. As well as the info I gave above, there are other references to “the twelve” that offer no hint of controversy over his choice despite the way it was done. While such a method may seem puzzling to us, there are many biblical precedents for the casting of lots in such situations.
Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
Casting lots…
My friend prayed and asked the Lord to show him a final sign if the girl he wanted to marry was the right one. He flipped a coin, and after seven times “heads” in a row he felt convinced that the Lord had indeed clearly spoken to marry her. It’s been 18 years.
——————————————————————————————-
Is All Scripture from God?
If Scripture was only partly trustworthy as inspired and authored by God, how lost we would be! It is not possible that the almighty God of the Universe would allow the Word He wanted to have recorded to be questionable.
He said that His Word would not return void. If we should have to question which of the Scriptures are indeed HIS Word, even Salvation and the means to gain it could be questioned.
I have received my major education in Germany. Martin Luther apparently translated the NT from the original texts in only 80 days, which clearly is not humanly possible. As I compare the German and English translations I see no vital differences that might cause any suspicions.
It is easy to see that not only those who first recorded His Word were led by the Holy Spirit, but also those who ventured to translate the original texts into the various languages.
Who would dare to take such a task lightly? I am certain that God is still able to strike someone with lightning.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
David writes, “Sheeja John, I am inclined to think that you have not had very much of a relationship with God’s Holy Spirit”. Tough words David, but somewhat understandable if we think the authority of the word is in question.
Sheeja John,
Please accept my apology for casting an aspersion on your relationship with the Lord’s Spirit.
I have written in haste and and not in love.
My desire truly, is not to offend but to encourage.
May God bless you,
David Marsh.
ALL of Scripture must have been “engineered” and recorded through the Holy Spirit as it stands as plumb-line and foundation, the very standard by which we walk and have our hope for the future.
A house is never only partly engineered. It is not possible. From the foundations to the rooftop, everything must be carefully designed in order for the building to withstand the storms that come against it.
Do not be deceived in these last days, for many will come and question the very foundation of your salvation. They do not come obvious and with bulldozers to tear down your “house”. No, they come like little carpenter ants and slowly and steadily eat away at the structure of your faith.
All it takes is a little leaven…
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
David Marsh,
I am not offended. I have peace with God and in God. Did I retaliate or condemn anybody? I believe that it is the work of the Holy Spirit to convince or convict a person. My responsibility is to present the truth in love. It was God who called me and anointed me and not any human agency. God has prepared me for the call that He has entrusted me with. I am fully aware of the cost I must pay for being obedient to the truth. I know that I will be misunderstood, persecuted, and I am prepared for whatever comes my way. God’s grace is sufficient for me. Yeshua Ha Mashiach is the rock on which I stand. Shalom.
What a whole lot of interesting posts since I last looked.
It really is important which translation we base our salvation doctrine on. Yes, salvation is a free gift of God thru His Holy Spirit, but then, WE have to live our lives basing our beliefs and behaviour on an accurate Bible translation.
Eg, a young woman I mentioned previously, had come to Christ. She had chosen a paraphrase/easy to read ‘Bible’ as her Bible. Since the paraphrase had been written by a man known for watering down God’s holy truth, it denied important truths. Her ‘Bible’ confirmed to her that her sinful lifestyle was acceptable to the Lord. Just what she wanted to hear.
We are warned that itching ears will be a big problem in the last days.
For her, this WAS a salvation issue. Fornicators will not be received into God’s heavenly kingdom.
ALL BIBLES ARE NOT EQUAL !!!
Ivan Panin wanted others in the body of Christ to help him research and write a most reliable NT. He was amazed that not one person would help with this.
His English NT – the Numeric English N.T. – is the ‘indisputable NT text’ which he discovered thru numerics. (Having an English dictionary at hand can clarify some of the big words !)
Among OT’s, the ASV 1901 or the closely related RV 1885 seem to have been the most accurate English word-for-word versions, according to Panin.
When it comes to the subjects of God’s eternal Word and our own soul’s eternal destination, I think we must be extremely wise and prayerful and careful.