ENCOURAGE YOURSELF!! – Rodney Francis
In our last Bulletin I spoke of the need for encouragement; how we all need to be encouraged as we journey through life. Encouragement encourages us! We live positively different when we are encouraged! When we are discouraged we can make decisions that we live to regret. So let us all make sure that we are ones who encourage others to be all that God wants them to be…
There is another ministry of encouragement and that is the
ministry of encouraging ourselves. In 1 Samuel 30:6, we read
these words: “But David encouraged himself in the Lord His God”
(KJV). The Amplified Bible says: “But David encouraged and
strengthened himself in the Lord his God.” (Many of the Bible
translations use the word “strengthened” rather than “encouraged”).
The reality is that when we are encouraged we are strengthened to
do the will of God.
Why did David need to encourage himself? While David and his
men were out fighting the battles of the Lord, on the home front his
city was burned with fire, and their wives, sons and daughters were
all taken captive. David returned to find the enemy had wrecked
what he had in Ziklag. The men with David were also heart-broken
and full of grief. In their time of distress they blamed David for the
cause of this (human nature always wants to blame someone else).
Suddenly David is standing alone, with the finger of accusation
being pointed at him for the loss of family and houses, etc. As
broken-hearted as he was, David demonstrated a quality of
character that we all need. In his hour of distress he knew how to
encourage himself. How would he have done that? I believe he
would have reminded himself of God’s faithfulness to him, His
promises and how God had delivered him in times past ~ that this
was not a time to get a wrong spirit and hardness of attitude toward
God because of the circumstances, and other negative people,
around him. So David encouraged himself. He talked to his own
spirit and told it to rise up, to not be beaten by what the enemy had
done. He encouraged himself enough to seek the Lord to see what
He wanted him to do in this situation. God answered him with
these wonderful words of comfort: “You shall surely overtake them
and without fail recover all” (1 Samuel 30:8). The circumstances
looked hopeless and lost; but through David encouraging himself
He was able to look beyond the tragedy and hear God’s promise
on the outcome. The result was that the men who accused him
were able to also rise and go with him to recapture their wives and
families. And that is exactly what happened. If David had not
known how to encourage himself, that day could have spelled the
end of numbers of peoples’ faith in the Living God.
Do you know how to encourage yourself? Do you know how to
speak the positive promises of God…? Do you know how to look
above and beyond the negative circumstances that come to us
all at different times in life? We need to. For, often,
in those times, there are no others who are around or with us to
speak encouragement into us. So we have to do it ourselves!
Did you know that one of the greatest “tools” of self-encouragement
that God has given us is the gift of speaking in other tongues? The
Scripture tells us: “He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself”
(1 Corinthians 14:4). When we are edified we are encouraged and
strengthened personally. I know for me, when I need to be
encouraged more, I go pray-walking and speak in other tongues
out loud. It is not very long before I am built up in my faith and
inspired to keep pressing on with the Lord and His call on my life.
Consider this verse: “But you, beloved, building yourselves up on
your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in
the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto
eternal life” (Jude 20-21). Surely this also is telling us of the power
of speaking in other tongues? When we speak/pray in other
tongues we are speaking spirit to Spirit directly to God. How good
is God to enable us to have a spiritual language that causes us to
rise up above all our discouragements and disappointments!
I want to encourage you to speak in tongues more. If you do not
have this God-given gift, let me encourage you to seek it. Ask God
to fill you to overflowing with His Holy Spirit and to give you that
ability to talk “spirit to Spirit” with Him. You will be so blessed
when you can communicate with God in this way, and it will build
you up personally to do more of the will of God in your life. I have
had that gift since I was 18 years old, and it has helped me
enormously over the years to be able to discern and continue in
the will of God for my life. He wants that for you too. ~Rodney Francis.
-ARTICLE SOURCE- http://www.gospel.org.nz/
This is just what I’m doing at the moment, having lost yet another job some 3 weeks ago and the bills mounting up. I’ve been reminding myself of the faithfulness of God in times past and singing praises to Him and trying to trust God and not lean on my own understanding. Persevering and overcoming and character-building and trusting God is where it’s at. A timely word of encouragement for me at this time. I will use the gift of tongues more and keep pressing on. Blessings to you Rodney. xx
Speaking in tongues is glorious and will build up your inner man (spirit) as Jude says….but for the mind and emotions to be built up and renewed and encouraged we need to spend time in His Presence worshipping Him and talking to Him and bathing in His Presence. And then read and saturate ourselves with the word which is what renews our “minds”. I pray many hours in tongues a day, but it is the study of the word that encourages me mentally and emotionally, and I love to read Psalms, and Ephesians, Col. And sometimes we just have to cry out to the Holy Spirit to just comfort and send encouragement to our hearts and minds!
Talking to Him and asking Him to minister to your heart and mind brings Him on the scene pronto. Sometimes we just have to wait and endure for a season……leaning to endure hardness as a good soldier. And sometimes God just wants to get our minds off ourselves and on others……encouraging someone else sometimes blows or own being down cast out to sea!
I often get confused and sad with hearing words like this. The reason? I do not speak in tongues myself.
I read Paul’s words “does everbody speak in tongues?” and think to myself: No. I still love Jesus.
But then I hear testimonies and sermonettes like this one, and I think to myself: Why have I not received the gift, after praying to the Lord and asking tongue-speaking Christians to pray for me?
A friend of mine believes he has the gift. He merely repeats “Sarala-conti, sarala-cinti”. Has been for years. I don’t feel anointing over his words as I do with others. My point is, people feel pressured to have this gift as evidence to have the Holy Ghost.
What should I do, my friends?
Regards, Eirik
Great article and a great demonstration of David’s life to encourage self. A lesson I need to learn to apply in my life.
I had to learn when someone accuses it is not them that we are fighting not flesh and blood but spiritual things so I separate the person from their sin. Romans 7:17 talks about Paul saying I do the things I don’t want to do because of sin that is within me. I take that as a lesson to not get offended or pulled down but separate them, forgive them and then encourage myself. Sometimes even looking at my own heart to see if there is anything in me for the demonic realm to connect and deal with it.
I do need to get better about encouraging myself. Sometimes I do, I feel as though the spirit of the Lord rises up in me, and I will shout the promises of God. It depends on the situation.
Good word…I do all of the things Joyce mentioned and I also ask the Lord to encourage me when I can’t seem to see straight. It amazes me how He can do that. As she stated, there is a fair bit to staying encouraged, not just tongues and reminding ourselves of God’s faithfulness…worship, the Word, reaching out etc…..not to mention the fact that the devil will be on your case if you are trying to make headway with God…so there is warfare as well. It’s multi faceted….
Erik, I do tend to believe that tongues is for most of us…Paul said * I would that you all spoke with tongues*….It is just a very helpful tool and most of us can use all the help we can get! I struggled to *speak in tongues* but was determined to receive it. One day I kneeled down by a chair and told God I would not get up until that happened. I had been prayed for many times by that point. I had been told that I should offer up to God whatever syllables came to me when I asked the Lord. I repeated those sounds many times, and then something happened…I felt words begin to rush up out of my *belly* in a torrent, and it became like rivers of living water. I have never stopped speaking in tongues since that day, usually every day, many times. We tend to think that God will make us speak, or move our lips or something…we need to offer Him in faith, the words or syllables He gives, and the rest will come. I know of many people who did not struggle so much to receive it….but I wanted it so badly, I didn’t give up. That was 38 years ago. Don’t give up! The Word says to *earnestly desire spiritual gifts* so there is nothing wrong with seeking!
Eirik you don’t have to do anything. Don’t seek the gifts as separate impartations of grace. Seek and get intimate with your father who is the giver of the gifts. He will make sure you get what you need. Unfortunately there is also a counterfeit gift of tongues that many Christians use in their own flesh these days, and it only hampers their relationship with God and man.
Thank you for this very timely confirmation! One can even have the “gift of encouragement”, and fail miserably to encourage others, much less themselves, [except on a soulish level], because of unbelief and laziness to pray in the spirit.
A pointer for Eirlik on receiving tongues: if you listen to this mp3 short audio you may find it helpful. Sorry that quality of audio is not too good:
http://www.jesusheals.me.uk/mp3.html
(correction) A pointer for Eirlik on receiving tongues: if you listen to this mp3 short audio by Nasim Siddiki you may find it helpful. Sorry that quality of audio is not too good:
http://www.jesusheals.me.uk/mp3.html
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is NOT one of the nine gifts of the Spirit. John the Baptist said that One was coming who would baptize you with the Holy Spirit and Fire….Jesus! And Jesus said that if we would ask for bread would the Father give us a stone?….MUCH MORE shall those who ASK AND SEEK for the Holy Spirit Baptism….shall He give it to them!
I had been into occult books before I was saved and though I had a fantastic transformation in my salvation…..when I sought to be Baptized with the Holy Spirit, I could not seem to receive. But then I got some deliverance and immediately I was then able to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the most glorious flowing language in the world! That was in 1974 and it still flows like a mighty river today.
Ask the Lord to show you if there in anything there that is hindering you if you are having a problem with it, and if He shows you something, then repent…..and go on reaching out for the Holy Spirit Baptism. I did and I am so glad I did! The power that comes with this experience is mind boggling. My mother who was a terrible stutterer, when she received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the prayer language….she NEVER stuttered again. What a miracle to witness!!
And the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for “every” Believer and well worth seeking until filled!! A million times over worth the pressing through! Glorious and marvelous. THEN you can really cast out devils, lay hands on the sick and see miracles happen. Like Paul, you can pray without ceasing in tongues. I do and now I know just what Paul meant when he said that we are to pray without ceasing. Only in tongues can we do that.
It is so powerful that the Devil fights it every inch of the way for he know what happens when God’s people receive the “gift of the Holy Spirit.” At Salvation we are “sealed” unto the day of redemption, but being Baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire is a whole separate experience. Glorious indeed!! I was raised in a church and denomination that did not believe in it, and today they are dead, dead, dead! How sad! We were given the “left foot of fellowship” when we received the Gift of the Holy Spirit…..and they did us a favor!! Hallelujah!
What a wonderful article, Andrew! Much of what I would comment on this subject i wrote on the previous article on encouraging one another.
We do need to encourage ourselves in the Lord. There have been numerous times when even my closest friends could not understand what the Lord was taking me through – and some forsook me or even turned on me. Yet, there was always a Friend Who sticks closer than a brother – Jesus Christ. I would turn to the Lord – often speaking in tongues – and be encouraged in the Lord.
The wonderful baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues was given to me 43 years ago. The Lord taught me some of the uses of tongues over the years. Often I was called upon to preach or minister when my body was exhausted. After praying in tongues, I was infused with a supernatural physical strength and alertness which enabled me to minister in power and authority. It was not unusual for the exhaustion to return once the ministry was finished and I was able to sleep and renew my body physically.
Often, when I was faced with problems in ministry and on personal fronts, I have prayed in the Holy Spirit in tongues and often the Lord resolved the issue or gave the guidance I needed to get through the issue successfully. Praise His Name!!!
God bless, my friends, and be encouraged in the Lord!
Wayne
1Corinthians 14:4….this verse has been used out of context to back up speaking in tongues. I suggest you read the entire chapter. The way I read it is completely different from the way this man is using it! He did NOT even give the entire verse!
! Corintians 14:4 ACTUALLY SAYS…He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
Read the entire chapter 14, speaking in tongues is NOT talked about in this chapter as a gift that is encouraging for anyone including yourself!
PLEASE, people, read your own bibles to understand God’s Word, DO NOT take someone else’s word for what the bible says because there are too many that have their own agenda instead of God’s!!!
EIRIK: Thank you for being so honest and transparently sharing with us your struggle.
First, I think your evaluation is correct of your friend who speaks the same couple of words over and over again every time he supposedly speaks in tongues. I have often see others supposedly “speaking in tongues” and the Lord has given me the gift of discernment of spirits and revealed that those were either speaking of the flesh or by demonic spirits.
I also agree with you that often there is “pressure” put on people to speak in tongues. I believe the Holy Spirit is gentle and does not force Himself into people’s lives. Yet I have seen people trying to force someone to “speak in tongues.”
Looking at the Biblical evidence in detail for decades concerning this issue, I have come to the conclusion that it is God’s perfect will for each person to be baptized in the Holy Spirit with the gift of speaking in other tongues. Peter stated in Acts 2:38b -39, “. . . and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise [of the Holy Spirit] is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
I believe the Biblical evidence is that it was the norm in the New Testament church for every believer to be baptized in the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. Several of the evidences for this (besides the one above) are: Acts 8 where the apostles deemed it necessary to go to Samaria to make sure the new believers were baptized in the Holy Spirit. We also see this in Acts 19:1ff. Paul came upon a group of believers at Ephesus and the first question he asked them was whether they had been baptized in the Holy Spirit or not. After finding they were only disciples of John the Baptist, he ministered the full gospel of Christ to them, baptized them in water and prayed for them to be baptized in the Holy Spirit – which they were with the speaking in other tongues and prophesying.
Regarding the issue of you having not receiving this blessing yet, I would point you to Luke 11:9 – 13, where Christ tells us to ask, seek, and knock and the Father will give the Holy Spirit to those of His children who do so. An interesting aspect to this passage is that, in the Greek, the verbs are in the present active tense. The Amplified Bible captures the meaning in its translation of these passages:
Luke 11:9-13 (AMP)
9 So I say to you, Ask and keep on asking and it shall be given you; seek and keep on seeking and you shall find; knock and keep on knocking and the door shall be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks and keeps on asking receives; and he who seeks and keeps on seeking finds; and to him who knocks and keeps on knocking, the door shall be opened.
11 What father among you, if his son asks for a loaf of bread, will give him a stone; or if he asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
13 If you then, evil as you are, know how to give good gifts [gifts that are to their advantage] to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask and continue to ask Him!
So Eirik, don’t give up! Be encouraged and KEEP ON asking, seeking, and knocking.
I would also encourage you not to seek merely the gift of the Holy Spirit Baptism with speaking in tongues. I would encourage you to mainly seek Jesus Christ, who is the ultimate Baptizer. John, the Baptist gives this promise in Matthew 3:11 – “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
Matthew 5:6 gives us this promise, “Blessed are thos who humger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled.”
1 Corinthians 1:30 tells us that Christ is our Righteousness. So, hunger and thirst after Christ. Seek Him and seek and ask the Father – and keep on doing so until He blesses you with the Promised Gift of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Also give heed to what Val has said. I would concur with her that the Holy Spirit will often initially bring to one’s mind some strange-sounding syllables or words. Do not be afraid to speak them out loud. As with the original Baptism of the Holy Spirit we are to “speak . . . as the Holy Spirit [gives us] utterance.” (Acts 2:4).
I encourage all Spirit-filled readers of this site to join together with me as we pray for Eirik to receive this blessed promise of the Father.
God bless,
Wayne
NANCY STEWART: How can you quote 1 Cor. 14:4, “He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself . . ” and conclude that this is not speaking of one encouraging himself?
If you want to talk about taking a passage in context, then I would encourage you to do just that.
Paul was writing 1 Corinthians to a church in order to correct a number of errors into which they had fallen. One of those errors was an overemphasis upon speaking in tongues to the detriment of the other gifts of the Holy Spirit. Paul addresses this matter in Chapters 12 – 14. Chapters 12 and 13 lay the foundation for the correction he gives in chapter 14.
In Chapter 14, Paul basically teaches them that, within the context of the church meeting together, it was more important to use the gift of prophecy, rather than focussing upon the gift of tongues. Paul is teaching in this chapter much about the gift of prophesying, but also about the gift of tongues. He states, especially in vv.1 & 4 that one who speaks in tongues is primarily speaking to God and EDIFYING THEMSELVES. This definitely speaks of encouraging or the building up of oneself by speaking in tongues. In v.18, Paul reveals that he speaks in tongues more than all in the Corinthian church. In context, it would appear that he is referring to private times between him and the Lord.
He then properly teaches that speaking in tongues within the assembly of believers can be so, but must be accompanied with a translation and should be limited to a maximum of three times within a meeting. (vv. 27, 28).
Yes, verses 1 & 4 together with verse 5a (“I wish that you all spoke in tongues . . .:) and verse 18, definitely teach us some things about speaking in tongues – not least of which is the fact that tongues should be used privately to build ourselves up – or encourage ourselves in the Lord.
I trust this helps to bring the matter into better understanding.
Yours in Christ,
Wayne
As per other posts I have seen instances where a person had occult involvement in their past or family line that blocked receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Also, unforgiveness can be a problem. Ask the Lord to reveal,He will. m
Wayne – I totally agree with you, my friend. Having studied the Bible on the “tongues” issue and having had this life-changing experience myself at age 17, I truly see this as something for EVERY believer. Sometimes there are blockages, and some people need to seek for longer – but it is worth it. This was the experience that utterly transformed my life – the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking with other tongues. I simply would not be anywhere near doing what I do today without this.
When I go to preach, unless I pray in tongues for hours before, I find there is much less power or authority in the message. It is a vital secret. Drive down the road – pray in tongues!! Do the dishes – pray in tongues!!
A bountiful gift from a wonderful Father.
Bless you all!
Andrew Strom.
First I do not believe this is a “special ministry” rather a requirement of us all. – 2 Peter 1.13 ” 1 Simon Peter, a servant…….make your calling and election sure……to stir you up by putting you in remembrance of these things;…..though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.”
I published the list below before, some bagged me for it! I do it again because these are things The Lord says about us once we are Spirit filled, we are to confess Him (speak the same as)
Print it out, pin it on the fridge, or behind a door you open frequently. This is some of what He now says about you and I!
WHO I AM, WHAT I HAVE,
IN CHRIST JESUS,
RIGHT HERE,
RIGHT NOW!
My STATE and STANDING in GOD’S SIGHT, according to THE WORD OF GOD!
I am a CHILD (a son or Daughter) of ALMIGHTY GOD (EL Shaddai)
Genesis 17:1, Galatians 4:6, 1 John 3:12
I am CHOSEN OF GOD; HE chose ME, I did not choose to follow Him. John 15:16 & 1 Peter 2:9
I am a NEW CREATION in CHRIST JESUS, old things have PASSED AWAY.
Psalm 103:12 & 2 Corinthians 5:17
I am an HEIR OF THE FATHER
Galatians 4:7 & Titus 3:7
I am a JOINT-HEIR with JESUS CHRIST, the SON OF GOD.
Romans 8:17
I KNOW HIM through the POWER of THE HOLY SPIRIT, and HE KNOWS ME.
Psalm 139, 2 Timothy 1:12 & John 3:18
When I pray in tongues, I WORSHIP THE FATHER in SPIRIT, and IN TRUTH!
John 4:23 & 1 Corinthians 14:2
I am a KING and a PRIEST unto GOD.
Revelation 1:16 & Revelation 5:10
I am a PARTAKER of His DIVINE NATURE.
2 Peter 1:4
I am COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED in Christ Jesus. (“Just as if I’d NEVER SINNED.”)
1 Corinthians 6:11 & Galatians 2:16
I am SANCTIFIED in CHRIST JESUS.
Hebrews 10:10-14
I am REDEEMED by the BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST.
Galatians 3:13 & 1 Peter 1:18
I am RIGTHEOUS in GOD’S SIGHT (In “Right Standing with GOD.”)
Romans 3:22-26, Romans 4:6-22 & Romans 5:17-21
I am STRONG in the LORD, and in the POWER of HIS MIGHT.
Ephesians 6:10
I am COMPLETE in HIM, who is the HEAD of ALL PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS.
Colossians 2: 10
I am SEATED IN HEAVENLY PLACES in CHRIST JESUS.
Ephesians 1:18-21 & Colossians 2:10
I have been DELIVERED from the POWER of SIN and DEATH.
Colossians 1: 13
I have been SET FREE from the POWER of SIN and DEATH.
Romans 5: 21 – 22
I am DEAD TO SIN, and ALIVE TO GOD through JESUS CHRIST.
Romans 6: 1 – 16 & Corinthians 5: 21
I am REDEEMED from the CURSE OF THE LAW by the BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST.
Galatians 3: 13
By HIS STRIPES, I AM HEALED.
Exodus 15: 26, Isaiah 53: 5, Luke 4: 18, Mark 1: 40 & Hebrews 13: 8
I am the HEAD, and not the TAIL – in ALL THINGS; I am MORE than a CONQUEROR.
Colossians 2: 10 & Romans 8: 37
I am TOTALLY CLEANSED from ALL SIN by the precious BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST.
Hebrews 9: 22 – 28, Hebrews 10: 1-2, Psalm 103 & Romans 4: 7-8
By HIS ONE OFFERING, I have been made PERFECT, FOR EVER.
Hebrews 10: 14
I am an ABLE MINISTER of the NEW TESTAMENT!
2 Corinthians 3: 5-6
I can do ALL THINGS through CHRIST who STRENGTHENS ME.
Philippians 4: 13
I KNOW THE TRUTH, and knowing the truth has SET ME FREE.
John 8:32
I am the LIGHT OF THIS WORLD.
Mathew 5: 14
I am an AMBASSADOR for JESUS CHRIST in a Foreign Land
Ephesians 6:20 & Hebrews 13:14
I WALK by FAITH, not by SIGHT.
2 Corinthians 5:7
My God shall supply ALL MY NEED according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
Malachi 3:8-10, Mathew 6:33, Luke 6:38 & 2 Corinthians 9: 6-7
I know I will LIVE FOREVER.
John 3:15 & 1 John 5: 11
I will RULE and REIGN on THIS EARTH, with JESUS CHRIST.
Isaiah 9: 6-1 Thessalonians 4: 14-18, Acts 1:10 & Revelation 19:16
Stay blessed, stirred up, be strong and of good courage.
Pr Michael
Being from the Word of Faith Movement…….I learned many things that were not quite right and set about to “right” them in my life. We can confess the Word all we want but Paul said this….”I believe, THEREFORE I speak!” We want to put everything into faith formulas and principles and that is not the scripture! We have to develope a living relationship with Christ through prayer and intimate time with Him. How unfulfilled I was till I learned it.
Taking books and praying their prayers is not the will of God for us either. We must not ever use principles and formulas for God is not seeking that from us. When the Word becomes a living part of our lives and hearts, THEN we can speak and confess it, and it will come to pass. Thank God He showed me how to have a living relationship, and not a formula type relationship. I had that and it did not satisfy and won’t! Faith issues out of our hearts not just our mouths!
Pastor Wayne and Andrew, Thank you.
I agree, but ask to to add a claim that in the church context, tongues MUST be accompanied with interpretation, and then only is this gift is then in order, and equal with prophecy?
Paul uses the phrase “I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.”
Please note the exception Paul uses here.
Thus there are indeed two aspects of the use of tongues for the Spirit filled.
First and foremost, the personal private building up in the Most Holy Faith.
Second in the church context, (possibly the most misunderstood one) the sign to unbelievers including encouragement to the church. Paul instructs all who have the Baptism in the Holy Spirit to pray for interpretation. The lord would not have inspired him to write this, if tongues interpretation were not to be manifest in His church?
I have been blessed for 46 years to attend meetings where every Sunday we have up to three manifestations (and no more) of tongues ALWAYS with interpretation, followed by up to three prophecies. as per 1 Cor. This is a very special time of encouragement for the whole church, the tongues/ interpretation is also a sign to new folk. There have been numerous occasions where a visiting unbeliever has recognized the tongue, confirmed the interpration (our society is multicultural) and as a result, as Paul wrote has “fallen down” in a spiritual sense and acknowledged the presence of God.
If i may add, Paul also wrote “The gifts of the Prophets are subject to the prophets ( “If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.”) thus in honour, preferring one another.
Pr Michael
Joyce, I was alos involved with WOF – one thing I learned afterwards was that most of the scripture quotes I learned and confessed at tthat time I learned through Kenneth Copeland’s teaching and not through a personal involvement with scripture. Therefore my understanding of those quotes related more to what Copeland said they meant rather than what was actually intended in their scriptural context.
Confession of scripture taken out of its intended context is worthless. We are merely speaking words with no understanding of their intended meaning.
Confession of scripture when it is given an UNintended meaning can lead to dangerous expectations.
Those quotes given by Michael may all sound encouraging, but I would say the majority have been listed with no consideration at all for their intended biblical context.
As for speaking in tongues m experience matches scripture, it defiinitely edifies the speaker. It can also be a grossly abused gift in public meetings. It is something to be kept between the individual and God and not used publicly UNLESS there is someone present able to bring a word of interpretation.
Interestingly, one thing I noted with all of the “interpretations” I heard in church, they were little different from their propehtic words – the interpretations were all messages from the Lord addressed to the church – and yet scripture tells us that while speaking to God in tongues, the speaker is speaking to HIM and not to the gathered assembly.
Therefore why aren’t the interpreations providing messages addressed to God?
A good point is this statement from Paul “I thank my God i speak with tongues more than you all, yet in the church…”
Where did he do all this praying in the Spirit? Obviously in private, in the “The closet” – in secret alone with the Lord. Math 6.6 Building himsef up!This is what privately praying in tongues for.
.”Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings (voice) which cannot be uttered.(understood)” – Our God given language is exactly as promised “For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.”) We do not understand our new tongue, therefore we can never pollute it! “No man speaking by the Spirit can call Jesus accursed”.
I know of a then young girl affected badly with cerebral palsy, could not dress, feed herself, make herself verbally understood, After conversion she could testify, in perfect English, that the first perfect thing she ever experienced in life, was to speak in another tongue as the Spirit came into her being, the voice was clear and distinct, with no sign of the impediment at that time still manifest in her body! The Lord restored her physical abilities as she walked with Him. She, her husband, and two children are alive to this day!
Pr Michael
Tim i pray this helps.
“Therefore why aren’t the interpretations providing messages addressed to God?”
Because as Paul writes it is for edification, and exhortation, and comfort of the church, (as you experienced) tongues with interpretation, (as it should be,) is equal to – has the same effect in the church as prophecy.
When you pray in the Spirit privately, then it is addressed directly to God as Paul in Romans writes.
Tongues in the church. Tongues privately
The first is God (His Spirit in us) talking to us, the second is (His Spirit in us) talking to Him
I am glad you found the quotes “sound” encouraging. No they should not be taken out of context! They are facts that God says about us! and are said by Him as True Even though we like Sarah may struggle with what seems impossible -Here is an example of Paul quoting scripture:
“(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things (Abraham 90 years old, Sarah’s womb dead) which be not as though they were.(Isaac a type of Christ and later a multitude of God’s children, a new man ultimately all families of Earth) ”
For a person who is Spirit filled, walking talking with God. The Word is living breathing inside. This is the same Word that was made flesh and came and dwelt as a man. The same Word that God spoke the cosmos into being with The same word that called dead Lazareth from the grave (Jesus said he only slept). imperfect The same Word that is written on the tables of our heart (mind) He is in our mind (heart) He is on our lips. “Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks,” He is Life eternal, Bread from heaven, Living Water He is alive, quick powerful. All things natural and spiritual must obey Him. His name is called The Word of God. Wonderful. Councillor. The Christ. Jesus,The Son of God, the son of man. et al. The prototype of a new creation!
Man makes an imperfect prototype and then strives to improve it. God made the prototype of His new creation perfect and remolds those who come after to the same pattern “like” (isos) Him , He calls us who were not as though we were and behold; we if willing, can become so! The likes of you, and God willing, i also, along with a multitude of others , God bless you, and us all Tim
Pr Michael
The most (and only?) encouraging thing for me, is to know that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that He is my Lord.
The most discouraging thing is to know that I have in some way taken myself out of His presence (by sin or disobedience or some failure).
And then the most encouraging thing is to know that Jesus is Lord and that His forgiveness and mercy is beyond understanding.
To know that God is the Lord of heaven and earth, that He is my Lord and that whatever the world may throw at me is less than Him, is perfect peace.
Eirik, I guess I have a different view on tongues. For many years I was made to feel as a second-class Christian because I did not speak in tongues. I have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and have never spoken a word in tongues, but I have other gifts. I don`t believe that speaking in tongues is THE evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but can be one evidence. My prayer life is not lacking, and I feel very fulfilled in it. It may not be meant for you Eirik, but if it is you will receive it. God knows what you need. And for those of you who do you speak in tongues , be blessed in using the gift you`ve been given. only please don`t do to others what was done to me. Laurie
There is a very important link between the Holy Spirit “coming upon” someone – and then the “utterance” that comes forth. We see this even in the OT. There is an “utterance” of God’s words that come when the Holy Spirit descends on someone.
So I always encourage people to continue seeking for this “utterance” from God. It is more important than many think.
Bless you!
Andrew Strom.
I think sometimes many have been influenced in a negative way by the church system and it becomes a hindrance for them to receive.
Jesus said;
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
It is a sign that will follow a believer. But many stumble over the statement in Mark 16:18
I don’t have complete understanding of this verse but I know the Lord said it for a reason.
On the other hand, if Jesus said we shall speak with new tongues that should be the final Word on the matter.
Thanks Andrew for that article.
Would appreciate any words of encouragement.
Timely article. Over the past six months I have been seeking further understanding on tongues. Eirik, thank you for your sincerity (of mind and heart) regarding your situation to this topic. I do not have a quick answer for you, but know this, the Lord loves you as much as he loves everyone else. Just as those who receive healing and those who endure suffering, He shows no favouritism and His love endures throughout our lives, even forever, regardless of our circumstances.
Unfortunately, I have no frame of reference for coming into this gift as I received it one minute before my water baptism and within 45 minutes of surrendering to the Lord and obeying the Gospel. THis happened at age 27, just over 20 years ago. I had never had any Church experience and so never heard anyone speak in tongues at the time I received that gift. In fact I thought this happened to everyone who received and believed Jesus CHrist. It was only a few years later that I discovered this was not the case.
WHen I conducted New Christian classes I could not teach on the baptism of the spirit because the Pentecostal literature at that time was flaky and lacked academic integrity. No one seemed able to synthesise the experience in line with the Scriptures, ministers included. What a strange dilemma! There I was regularly speaking in tongues, yet could not reconcile it with the word. That is, until I read Barry Chants’, ‘God’s Power.’ Not only did he expound the Scriptures on tongues, he gave a historical treatise on the subject, accompanied by real life testimonies.
Andrew, it does appear there are blockages, according to those testimonies I read. There is definitely power and strengthening beyond human limitations when tongues are spoken/prayed, even sung. Words cannot justify this reality.
Mike Gaskin – You said the occult involvement, or unforgiveness may be blockages to receiving this gift. I think you are right. I keep wondering why I should receive the gift and never having sought it. However, my search for truth began since I was at least 7 years old. So, effectively, I may have been searching for 20 years. I only ever heard someone preach the Gospel when I was 27, not before – that really puzzles me.
I make the above point for this reason. At age 18 I made a conscious decision to forgive every person who hurt me and caused me grief. Perhaps having a forgiving spirit had something to do with receiving the gift immediately upon being born again.
I would like to finish with this. As a very young Christian, I was led to pray in tongues for five hours, 11:30pm to 4:30am. WHen I finished, the Lord spoke something absolute to me. It was prophetic and had to do with my livelihood. That word holds perfectly true to this day.
Years later, I joined a prayer group. Each week we met for a 12 hour prayer meeting. We would pray in tongues for 2 and 4-5 hour solid blocks. Once in private I prayed for 8.5 hours solid, no break, and had to pull myself away from it. I have never seen time pass so quickly as when I pray in tongues, e.g. 4 hours = 5 minutes. I don’t pray as often now in those blocks as I am doing life with the family and community. Perhaps I should.
However, like ANdrew said, pray in tongues [AND I SAY - PRAISE HIS NAME TOO, PLEASE], when you do the dishes, drive the car, … even dig the hole…
Now the point of the above paragraph is to say this: Just because I may pray in tongues more than many, this does not make me more spiritual, only more determined. I have testimony to that , also.
Eirik, pray that the Holy Spirit will lead you and guide you in this area.
The example about David encouraging himself and about us praying in tongues in the article above – Well, I have seen many pray in tongues and their life can still and does fall apart. What then. Perhaps keep praying more in tongues?? But I say also, NEVER FORGET THIS – DEVELOP A GODLY CHARACTER. Praying is one thing and requires faith and discipline, relationship and intimacy, with God. Character takes years to build, and evidence of the fruit of the SPirit can be a good indicator as to how we are progressing as we endeavour to develop a Godly character.
Power and enabling is important to accomplish the will of God, but they are not necessarily what makes us. Faithfulness and steadfastness, righteousness, holiness … are part of developing a Godly character. “Well done, GOOD and FAITHFUL servant.”
Character will show forth in our actions and dealings with people: ‘Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.’ (Heb 12:14)
“I keep praying that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, that the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
Without faith, it is impossible to please God.
Erik, be of good cheer. Jesus NEVER spoke of tongues being THE sign of salvation nor the requirement of a witness of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The signs that accompany a believer who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit are those of the imitation of Christ – being conformed to His image.
Those signs at the end of Mark accompany the message of the Gospel (the Kingdom of God), the confirm the word, not the believer.
Also, remember that many have gone before us with much more power, humility, love, and have moved mountains concerning revival, yet did not speak in tongues. And yet, many can blather in tongues all day long, idly standing in the market, not out laboring.
It took me a while to receive this gift, but I never expect it of others, only that the fragrance of their life be in keeping with the character of Christ. Loving, holy, separate, abiding.
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” (John 6:29) Read on to see what sign Jesus would give them that they might believe.
Be encouraged, my dear brother Erik:
1 Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
With much love in Christ,
Bro Jeff
Gifts are given as the Holy Spirit determines, His purposes, His wisdom etc. Spiritual gifts or not, is not a sign of His love or lack of love, it is just very practical for the church. The Father does everything according to what He determines, nevertheless when His children pray and ask He inclines His ear to our prayers. If it is the desire of your heart to receive a particular gift then I would encourage anyone to simply take up the issue with Him, in confident rest, because when we delight ourselves in Him it is He who gives us the desires of our heart – in other words when our heart is in sync with His, beating as one, often we are desiring what He desires. He is a good Father, be anxious for nothing but present your requests to God.
Been thinking about this a lot lately. There are some questions that I’ve been asking myself.
Why am I encouraging myself. Is it to continue on with the work the Lord has given, or is it only for the purpose of feeling good.
Where is my focus. On myself and what ever it is that has gotten me down, or on those things that He is working out in my soul. Is there good fruit coming out of my own life because of the struggle.
Sometimes the road He has us on does not make a whole lot of sense. It is our choice to believe that He has everything under control, and believe that His hand is not short to save. We can believe the evil, or believe the good.
The biggest encouragement through my life has been by reading about other Christians gone before that have managed to run the race in faith. So many have gone through unimaginable trials and tribulations. Some with only the Lord as their encouragement.
The Testimony of Mrs. Mary Rowlandson is the latest read. No matter how desperate the situation, and no matter where we find ourselves, the Lord is still Lord.
Eirik,
Be encouraged, for love is eternal and never fails, yet scripture says that tongues will cease, prophecies will fail and knowledge will vanish away. So if you have love, it does not fail, nor does the love that the Father gives to you.
I sing in the spirit and when there are no words to express something I then sing in tongues and make melody to the Lord, because He has lifted my heart or countenance. But if I do not have love, I am nothing but sounding brass.
Perhaps we should intercede for Eirik’s tongue to be loosed.
However I will share something I heard long ago and it stuck with me through the years,
There was a little girl who was saying her a,b,c’s. She kept repeating them over and over. A preacher approached her and asked why she kept repeating her a,b,c’s. She said I am praying.
The preacher then said I will show you how to pray and thus started to teach. When he finished he asked if she got it. She looked up at him and said she thought so. So the preacher was leaving and she started again to say her a,b,c’s– the preacher stopped and said, I thought I taught you how to pray, why are you saying your a,b,c’s again?
The little girl said, I figure I will just give God the letters and let Him make the words.
This is a well-written, very good word, and certainly 100% truth.
I would guess that it was written by a pastor.
Unfortunately, this is not the most important type of word that the Church needs to hear in this hour.
The Church is predominantly lethargic, self-satisfied, content, lukewarm, apathetic, and ignorant, perhaps primarily because of the leaders.
What the Church really needs to hear is the true meaning of repentance (almost never preached), the difference between the Church and salvation on the one hand and the kingdom of God on the other hand (almost never preached), and the preaching of the in-wrought cross in our lives (almost never preached).
It is like the five wise and the five foolish virgins in Matthew 25. All 10 of the virgins represent born-again Christians. But the time is rapidly approaching when the door (to the kingdom of God) will be shut. That has nothing to do with “going to heaven” in the sweet by and by.
The Church today must hear words of warning before the door closes to the kingdom of God.
I encourage myself by loving God harder. The words of the heart towards God are the key. I didn’t come to God through mankind, but through the Holy Spirit as a little child. The greater my love for Him grows, the greater the blessings He has given me. When I was little I prayed with all my heart that He would correct the world that I found myself in so that none of His innocent creations would be hurt anymore. I told Him it was ok to destroy me too in the process of restoring the world, because I so wanted His Will, even if I was not a part of it. I prayed for understanding and knowledge so that i would not hate, but would understand. Because of these innocent and heartfelt prayers as a child, He has walked with me all my life, supplying me. He gave me a dream vision in my 30′s of what we were (after the fall) and what we are after He found us and we raised our arms to Him….and what we will be in our restored Spirit Bodies. Awesome….nothing here that could be offered me would replace the glory contained in the least of the gifts we Saints will have….our restored Spirit bodies! I struggled with anger once as an adult (the first level of murder) and I went to Him in tears asking Him why? Why couldn’t I control my anger? He instantly spoke within my mind. “It is because they don’t love you. Is not My love enough for you? I did not put you here to be loved. I put you here to love my people.” Thought that only applied to me….but know now…it applies to all of us. When I have a sense of discouragement….I ponder upon those words He spoke to me…..and I am no longer discouraged….because His love is enough for me. The last time He spoke to me….it was outloud….when I was all alone and wide awake…..He spoke my name as tho reading it from a list..loud. I took that to mean (at the least) that it is my generation when the 70 years of Daniel will be completed. (I am turning 67 around Passover of this year.) Mankind has applied that prophesy incorrectly. (Dan 9:24-70) The 70 “sevens” were not 70 times 7 years as man applied them. The “sevens” referred to the seven Holy Sabbaths within one year of the Jewish Calendar. It should have been interpreted as a 70 year period to be applied in the Latter Times….when the last call went out to rebuild Jeruselum. We are in the last period of 7 years of that 70 years. 1 seven plus 62 sevens, plus 7 sevens. The trumpet period in Revelation will start during this last segment….and at the 7th trump My King of Kings returns! That is all the encouragement I need. We must be prepared to enter our chambers for a little moment til the indignation passes over (satan claiming to be god) Isaiah 26:20-21. May only be for 45 days to 5 months. Our God is so awesome in providing for those who love Him. Read Daniel 12:10-13. Blessed are those that waiteth and cometh to the 1,335th day…45 days longer than the 1,290 day period within which the Abomination is set up. (Satan claiming to be god and demanding worship.) Blessed are they that are not deceived by satan’s claims. This is the period we need to enter our chambers….just like in Passover, a Jewish Holy day given to God’s people as guidelines and warnings. Some have been fullfilled, and others are looking towards the end times. We are in them. We must not be tempted to worship the false one. “Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.” The Lord’s Prayer is all about the end times…..and what we should be praying for, and what should be in our heart’s desire. Those who truly have the priorities as listed in the Lord’s Prayer….are those that truly love God…Our Holy Heavenly Father…Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done (not ours) here on earth as in Heaven. Those are the first things we should desire….before even our “daily bread”. Memorize it, put it in your hearts along with the 10 commandments and Jesus Christ. Be obedient and not fearful…..love God more than yourself or anything else on earth…..and you will be covered by God’s Will during these times.
Claudia
Once again, we have those from the charismania movement separating believers in the “tongue speakers” and the “non tongue speakers”. I thought we had done away with this sort of nonsense. There is way too much emphasis placed on speaking in tongues and the attitude of everyone I’ve heard (and yes, Andrew you are unintentionally buying into it) makes those who don’t feel less of a believer. Its like they don’t have the same “annointing” (another part of the charismania vernacular) that tongue speakers have. All of you are 100% dead wrong.
Well I say to you all – shame on you! This is exactly what the Paul was talking about. Stop your bragging about speaking in tongues because all it does is edify yourself. It does no good to the body as a whole. In other words, if you speak in tongues, just keep it to yourself. That’s between you and God. I don’t really care if you speak in tongues or not. I’m not going even going to say which “camp” I fall into because it doesn’t matter.
Andrew, I have tremendous respect for you my brother, but I am going to publicly rebuke you on this one. This is the same trap that many of those you now call out and rebuke by name (which I agree with) fell into and got started down this wrong path. Let’s not let the camel get his nose back into the tent again. I think you should repent of this emphasis you are placing on tongue speaking and seek forgiveness from those believers that you have made feel less than perfect by placing such great weight on such a minor minor (yes that is two minors) thing.
Ps: That 1,335th day I mentioned above is when the 7th trumpet sounds and My King of Kings, Glorious Lamb, Son of God, my Hearts Desire, commences to return. We will be changed in a twinkling. Those who were not deceived by the wolf in sheeps clothing will not have signed on with the antichrist system which will have been implimented before this time by demanding a pledge of worship in order to participate in a cashless society. Wait….for a short time longer….no matter how hungry you are….our True King and Savior Jesus Christ will soon be returning to reveal the falsehood of the pretenders claims. Endure unto the end, unto death if necessary….for death is Life if you are connected to Christ! Be prepared to help feed God’s people, His brethren during these times just before the 7th trump sounds….so they may avoid the temptation to buy and sell in satan’s economy. Be wise as serpents and gentle as doves! When the 7th trump sounds the fire angels will be given their Bowls of Wrath to pour on the earth. Christ will commence burning the tares who were left in the fields, after we are harvested into the Master’s house! There will be nations (peoples) that make it through the Bowl Wrath period…those who had the hearts to help those being persecuted….just as in the times of Hitler…there were folks who risked their lives to help others, even tho they were not Jewish. God will be watching the hearts of these peoples and He will mark those that even tho they are not Christians…they have the heart that is willing to die for others. They will walk into the Mellinium and they will produce flesh bodies there to receive spirits that God wants to be perfectly taught. Christ will trample the winepress of the Wrath of God….and will usher in His Mellinium Kingdom where we saints will be the crystal waters that come out of the East Gate to restore the earth and help teach God’s Will perfectly..(John 7:38)(Jeremiah 17:13)(Jeremiah 2:13) (Ist John 3:2)..unlike what man has been able to do with the Treasure of Words that Christ left with us before He descended. Our Father would not test the last of His children before they had been taught perfectly…as they will be during the 1,000 years when Christ is with us in His Kingdom. At the end of the perfect teaching satan will be let loose for the last hour of testing (about 40 years) at the end of the Mellinium. It makes me cry that many will not love my Christ….but will turn to what satan offers….self will/ego and self glory and rule. Even with perfect teaching many will not want God’s Will, but theirs….just as did satan, the dragon of old. All creation will than see the perfect Will and honor of God unfolded as there will be no ignorant choices made at that time…they were taught perfectly. Perfect teaching was done…..the choice now will be made from the heart’s desires…a choice of prefering evil over good. Than the last of evil will be utterly destroyed along with satan in the 2nd death. (Rev. 20:14). With “evil” destroyed there will be nothing to hinder Love. God says throughout in the Bible…if you don’t hate evil you don’t love me. That is an excellant way to measure our heart’s condition.
TheDude – you are rebuking me for one of the most powerful (in fact, THE most powerful) experiences in God that I have ever received. Not only that, but the same is true of my wife and family and friends. When they were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in “tongues”, if you ask them, they will tell you it was literally like a “Book of Acts” experience. In fact – that is exactly what it was!
If you think I have abandoned that or do not preach it any longer, you are grossly mistaken. I am always open about it. I do not want people missing out on the very thing that utterly transformed my life and the life of countless people that I have met.
And it is as biblical as you can get.
Bless you!
Andrew Strom.
Bob Padgett, spot on. The door is shutting quickly.
Andrew this is a significant issue being discussed here.
To all, even after my testimony above, I am willing to hear those who oppose it, based on Scriptural grounds. Many will be tested and challenged here. Let us all remember not to be divided by doctine. That may mean we will need to discern whether this doctrine or its by products affect any major doctrine of the Christian faith, in which case we may need to contend for it, but let us do it with honour.
For those of us reexamining false doctrine as a result of being part of the charasmatic movement, I empathise with all when it comes to the subject of tongues. I am willing to spend years getting to the bottom of this topic, but not every day of my life.
Let us ask ourselves what are we contending for and what is at stake. Some of our practices have not been biblical (Church services today), but how far does unbiblical practice go? Are we willing to have stripped away those things we held dear but may not have been of the Lord? I compare it to witnessing to an unbeliever. All their worldview is being stripped away while they are being presented with another ‘reality.’ Based on our experience and understanding, we act. Being told that our experience or understanding is flawed will make one feel insecure.
Let us not loose footing and understand the foundation of our faith and keep our eyes on the Lord.
Hi
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Paul is saying that charity (i.e. love) towards our brethren, should be the basis for all that we do, especially with the gifts the Lord has given us. Otherwise they are of no real use, except for self gratification.
To build oneself up is not something the Lord tells us to do. The Lord tells us we are to build one another up in his word. The word ‘edify’ means to instruct, or to educate. By so doing I have found that the Lord, through the Holy Spirit gives me encouragement to carry on.
If there were any tongues of angels, and I had them, and did not use them to the benefit of my neighbour, (i.e. brethren) it would be nothing else except a vain and prattling type of babbling” that gives a rude and uncertain sound.
May the Lord help us to keep our eyes firmly fixed on him and have love (charity) toward the brethren. Remember, love is an action word. We are not to have a sloppy, or erotic ( Eros ) love, but an unconditional love toward each other.
In Christ,
Bruce.
Yes, Bruce.
And I hope you agree that it would be utterly “unloving” NOT to share the most powerful and wonderful experience with Jesus that we have ever had – and hope that others can share it too.
I cannot think of many things more “unloving” than not sharing such a thing.
Bless you!
Andrew Strom.
THE DUDE: Have you had some bad experiences with those going under the name of Charismatic?
It seems that you speak with disdain concerning anything charismatic and the use of your fabricated word “charismania” is a slander against something very precious to God and to those who love Him and His gifts to them.
Do you realize that “charisma” is a Greek word used much in the New Testament meaning “gift, grace, favour.” It is used dozens of times to speak of God’s gifts of grace, salvation, and the gifts which the Holy Spirit gives to individuals in the Church and hence to the Church as a whole.
For you to call the Gifts of God “nonsense” is a slander which you should evaluate before God on your knees, my brother.
To describe such things, such as the “charisma” of prophecy or the “charisma” of speaking in tongues is quite Scriptural.
I am humbled, and consider myself privileged and blessed by God to be “Charismatic” – or one blessed with the Gifts of God.
It is obvious that this subject is one which raises a bitterness within you. May I suggest that you ask yourself why?
In the future, I trust that you will no more slander the Gifts of God, but that you will thank Him for the gifts which He gives.
In the same vein, can you honestly say your rebuke of Andrew was of the Holy Spirit? Or was it of the bitterness you harbour within your own spirit? May I suggest you seek what the LORD has to say about this matter, and perhaps a word of apology should be given to Andrew.
May God bless you, my brother.
Wayne
BRUCE SKELTON: You said, “To build oneself up is not something the Lord tells us to do. The Lord tells us we are to build one another up in his word. The word ‘edify’ means to instruct, or to educate.”
You have stated several things here which do not line up with what Scripture actually says.
First, “To build oneself up is not something the Lord tells us to do.”
The Word of God does instruct us to do that very thing. Jude 1:20 (NKJV) commands, ” But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,” 1 Corinthians 14:2, 4, 15, 18 also back up this command.
Second, “The word ‘edify’ means to instruct, or to educate.” Where did you come up with this fabricated meaning? The Greek used here and elsewhere in the NT is “οἰκοδομέω” or anglicized, “oikodomeō” which is a verb meaning “to build, build up, erect, edify, or encourage.
No where does it have the meaning you are attributing to it.
Third, the focus of your post seemed to be that the gifts of the Holy Spirit should only be used for the benefit of others. Once again, this does not line up with what the Scripture tells us. It is very obvious that there is a use of the gift of speaking in tongues which to benefit the individual using the gift (1 Cor. 14:2, 4). Also, it is obvious that several of the other gifts could be used for the benefit of the one to whom they are given (such as the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, the discerining of spirits, – really all the gifts in 1 Cor. 12).
You might argue that this is selfish. First, we are told that the second greatest command of all is to love our neighbour as ourselves. This means that we must love ourself first before we can love another (within God’s meaning of love which He gives us). To put this another way, we best serve others when we take proper care of ourselves – keep ourselves in a place where we can best serve others.
Also, on a practical level, there have been gifts of the Spirit which He has given me in the midst of personal struggles or issues which revealed the answer I was looking to Him for. In all the situations I can recall immediately, I would have to say that while the gift was for me personally it resulted in benefit to other parts of Christ’s body as well.
Yours in Christ,
Wayne
TheDude..makes me sad how you are presenting those who don’t have the gift of tongues yet. You are speaking for many who don’t feel the way you do and don’t approach it in anger at all. They just feel it’s either not their time yet and are waiting..not that they feel less than others. So sad your speaking like that as if all that don’t have it feel that way…not true at all.
To all…
I think if God gave the gift to edify your spirit…why would He not give it to everyone who asks?
I have been going through a tremendous time of uncertainty in my faith…..it’s like God is testing me..it would seem…especially in the gift of tongues. I have been listening to some (John MacArthur) who say it is not for today and makes me question. It would seem I am at a crossroads. But..I have decided….TO HECK WITH IT!!!
I will embrace what God has freely given to me!!!!!!…. and quit quenching the Holy Spirit who quickens my heart! and speak it till my tongue is tired!!!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!
I am not angry in any way, nor am I speaking from any “experience” I have. Like Andrew, I will speak the truth when the Holy Spirit lays it on my heart to do so. Like Andrew, I will not soft peddle the truth. Yes, sometimes the truth hits hard. God told us His word is a “sword”. Its not a feather.
Too many people caught up in the charismatic movement based their faith on feelings or emotions, rather than the well reasoned word of God. They attempt to backdoor their feelings and emotions by starting with them, then search for verses to support their feelings and emotions.
Folks, this is all backwards. It starts with reason (reading God’s word), then comes revelation (God’s truth is revealed to us), then experience. All I see being discussed here is starting with some emotional experience and working your way backwards into God’s word.
I’m not here to debate. We are all brethren. I will speak for the truth when I feel compelled to do so. Many of you are regular contributors to this blog, but I only speak up when the Holy Spirit prompts me to do so.
My role is that of a messenger, not a salesman.
And to set the record clear, I am of the opinion, after much research and prayer, that all the gifts are available to us today, but must be used in their proper context.
Hi Meredith,
Believe scripture NOT John McArthur. While he is a highly respected teacher in some circles, like with many teachers there are serious problems with some of his major doctrines. His views on spiritual gifts like tongues is only one of the problems with his beliefs.
Keep seeking God and He will keep His promise that those who go on seeking will find.
My wife sought the baptism in the Holy Spirit for years until she actually received – she didn’t allow herself to give up but kept on asking and kept on believing.
THE DUDE: So, if you are so all-fired-hepped-up on everything being based upon the Word of God, then what from your first post was?
Or was it merely a display of your feelings and opnions?
You know, it’s tough. My dad died in October, and he was the most encouraging person I’ve met in my ENTIRE life. Actually, he was kind of the most demanding at the same time, lol. He was always there to make sure his boys were following God. He was always there to encourage us in the things of God. He was always there to encourage us in natural things as well. It is him, who instructed us that we could do anything we put our minds to. Sometimes that doesn’t come as what seems like encouragement to most, sometimes it comes with a kick in the pants.
Since he set me straight with God years and year ago, I’ve NEVER been depressed, because he helped teach me to trust God with all my heart. Now that he’s gone, I’m depressed almost constantly. But alas, I still have the peace of God that surpasses all understanding. My father will never be forgotten, for the encouraged people he’s left behind.
The turnout at the ceremony was a testament to his encouraging nature. My hope and prayer is that his death is not a waste, and that God would cause my brother and I to be what he was, and more.
Hi Andrew.
I have a question to ask you. Would you show the same love toward a brother who has moved on to seek God for what Paul calls the better gifts? Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith, which is God given;
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
But seek earnestly the best gifts:
I am sorry but I have moved on from tongues-speaking, which is at the bottom of Paul’s list of gifts. The Holy Spirit is telling me not to force tongues on anyone, and that love does not demand its own way. Don’t be like the smokers and drinkers who try to persuade people to be like them, and have the same experience as they do.
I am glad that you have had a marvellous experience, speaking in tongues, but no one can have your experience, that God has given to you.
It’s funny how we tend to want people to be like us, in stead of allowing God to have his way.
In Christ,
Bruce.
Trenton Adams…
I’m so sorry for your loss. Sounds like your Dad was an awesome man of God…looks like his son is as well. ;0) His legacy lives on in you…hang in there.
It makes me so sad that a thread that was to be an encouragement in the loving gifts of God and to encourage ourselves in the Lord …with one of those things being tongues..has turned into discouragement. Discouragement of the gifts of the Holy Spirit
I just don’t get it.
I would rather have the hope of what God has for me than to shut the door on it and cheat myself out of all He would have for me. The only one it hurts in myself. I’m tired of doing that. So tired.
Bruce said:
“I am glad that you have had a marvellous experience, speaking in tongues, but no one can have your experience, that God has given to you.
It’s funny how we tend to want people to be like us, in stead of allowing God to have his way.”
—
Funny how this seems to go both ways. But which of the following two examples should we most like to emulate?
1) I have received this wonderful revelation from scripture or this wonderful experience that matches the scriptural account and I want to share it because I understand that scripture says its available to you too. So I want to encourage you and others to seek it for themselves.
2) I haven’t had that claimed wonderful revelation/experience, so I’ll do what I can to discourage others from seeking it by condemning your experience.
What does scripture say? Which are the following are true according to scripture?
1) Seek and you shall find
2) Ask and you shall receive
3) Knock and it shall be opened to you
4) If God hasn’t already chosen to give it to you you are never going to get it
5) If I haven’t received it then God doesn’t want to give it
6) If I haven’t received then God doesn’t want you to have it either.
Hi Meredith.
Don’t be discouraged God has more to off, you than just speaking in tongues, he wants you to ask him in faith, nothing wavering and it will be given to you.
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
In Christ,
Bruce.
BRUCE SKELTON: I trust, that in your last post you really are not likening those who speak in tongues to those who smoke and drink???
Your post seems to make it out that some gifts are better than others.
If I might ask, which are the best or better gifts?
The answer the Lord gave me when I sought Him extensively for it years ago was this – the best gift is the one which is most needed in any given situation,
For example, if a situation requires the gift of a word of wisdom, then the gift of healing wouldn’t really do it, would it?. The gift of a word of wisdom would be the best gift in that situation.
TO ALL:
I praise God that He has given to us another one just like Christ, which is the Holy Spirit of promise to supernaturally supply exactly what we need in any given situation! Does not 1 Corinthians 12:11 tells us that the Holy Spirit gives the gifts as He wills. He knows what is best suited for each situation we encounter and He gives what is needed to those who will hear His voice and do His bidding.
There have been a number of questions regarding why some have or have not spoken in tongues. I earlier gave what I believe the Bible tells us is God’s perfect will for each child of His concerning this matter.
However, I also believe the Lord also gave me an answer for why one may not receive the gift of speaking in other tongues. I believe that one may be hindered in some way from receiving the gift of tongues. It may be based on what we know, what biases we may have, or what might be part of our makeup which may be hindering the receiving of this blessed gift. I have known a number of people who have never spoken in tongues but whom I believe to have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. I believe the Lord told me that His Spirit will move within the co-operation of the Believer to the extent that they will work with Him.
If one will be open to a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom, but for some reason are hindered from speaking in other tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance, that does not mean they are not bapitzed in the Holy Spirit.
I also believe that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues is the Biblical pattern. I also believe that the speaking in other tongues opened a door to the Holy Spirit for Him to more freely work through my life in the rest of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
I do not – Bruce – try to force it on someone. I have seen some who tried to do this and it sickened me. I will, however, teach and preach about it and help those who want to receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
I hope this will help some of you who may have some struggles with the speaking in other tongues and the rest of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
God Bless,
Wayne
Sorry Bruce – it should have been your second last post – not the last one. You sent another one while I was working on mine.
I’d like to thank all of you who took the time to give your reply with advice and blessings: Marty, Pastor Wayne, Laurie, Jordan Shepherd, Teshuva and Val S.
Jesus bless you!
Regards,
Eirik
Why are you not listening to what God may be trying to tell you through the rebuke? Are we to constantly defend ourselves or seek God for what TheDude has brought to light?
I too am grieved by how non-tongue speakers are left to feel as though they are “less comely” in the Body.
And I support and use the gift of tongues.
Bro Andrew (and Pr Wayne), he didn’t say tongues are unbiblical, but that the push to and boasting of it is. Btw, all the tongue examples never (that I can think of) involved anyone preaching or teaching about it – it just happened to some upon conversion.
Be cautious.. especially if we cause a brother to stumble over this issue in causing him to doubt or weaken in faith. If so, the scripture says we could be the cause of the brother or sister perishing and we are sinning against Christ. (1Cor 8:11-12)
Mat the Lord bless us as we seek to understand what He is saying to us during this time.
Eirik,
I had you on my heart this morning and asked for Father
to loose your tongue to speak His heavenly language.
Though we rejoice at these gifts, it was quickened to me that our rejoicing should be that our names are written in the Lambs book of life. I pondered this and then thought, what greater gift is there than this. What better encouragement can one have, when they are in trials or testing or feel that they may lack something than to remember even if for a brief moment that their name is written.
May you be blessed today and continue in your journey with a rejoicing heart at what you do have.
I remember when I first starting speaking in tongues…I heard just a few words that I didn’t understand….sounded like iskaba alibah….but I was faithful with those two little words (it was about 5 years after I repented and got saved)…then one day a friend prayed for me to have an increase and the rest is history. I pray in the spirit when words are inadequate and I know that I am praying the Will of God for that person or situation. I don’t know why it took 5 years …I was a young Christian eager to know the Bible and be with people who loved God and wanted to learn so much. I just believed and kept walking. There are many things that could be blocking it for some…I think one of my fears about it was I didn’t want to do anything that was not of the Lord. I had peace about it and will continue to pray in tongues.
The bottom line is seek Him and then continue to walk forward and He will show you the way directly or through others…be lead by peace.
The longer I walk with the Lord, it becomes more simple…Love Him, Love yourself and Love the Body of Christ, stay in His Word and Walk in Obedience….Live it real……it isnt Hype, it isnt gold falling from heaven it is about deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him….When you cry out to Him from your whole heart about any situation, He will answer you…just be open to how and with whom.
Jesus was busy but never rushed…and we should do the same about everything….just keep moving forward on His Highway and He will unfold life before your eyes….
Dear Saints,
The Lord has prompted me to write a word of encouragement for those who have or are going through the greatest trial of life. So many of God’s people are in dismay, discouragement, and depression.
There are those who can relate to the rug being pulled out from under. All the things that the Lord had said in the past gets thrown into doubt. Temptations come and what once was victory becomes the pit of sin. The promises that were the foundation of faith clang as brass. Even praise rings hollow.
A place where even belief in God takes every strand of willpower in the soul. Where it is not possible to pray any type of intelligent prayer, only one cry deep inside. This cry is the loudest but most silent of them all. God, if you are there, I surrender. It is a place of brokenness. There is a fear born from either hanging on to what is known and cherished, or trusting that there is a God who gave His Son to be Lord of everything.
A place where the beginning is the end. The end of all knowledge gained, understandings are washed away, the bridge collapses and there is nothing to stand on.
It comes right down to the will. The choice. Believe that there is a God. That Jesus is His Son, or not. The easier decision in this state is to not believe.
In these times Heaven seems closed, and you cant even pick up the Bible for encouragement. All seems lost.
If this is you, then look up! The Lord is looking for your true motives. True faithfulness. When the gates of hell have opened and you are drowning, there are no words anyone else can say to encourage you, and they shouldn’t. Because this is where the greatest work is done in the soul. It is between you and Him. Your faithfulness to Him is met with His faithfulness upon you.
Michele….
Thank you….your words have spoken to my heart. Thank you.
Agree with what you’re saying about tongues-speaking Dude and the danger of dividing the camp into the haves and have-nots with spiritual pride on the one hand or feeling inferior & left out, on the other. Unfortunately it looks like you were misunderstood by at least a couple of people.
Tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, I think everyone agrees with that, and from many testimonies it seems clear that some people receive that particular gift when they first receive the Holy Spirit and others don’t. But the scripture says that every child of God receives gifts of some kind, just that many gifts are not as dramatic and readily apparent, it takes time and maturing often for these gifts to blossom and for the fruit to become apparent so to speak. And sometimes gifts become apparent to others first before we can see it in ourselves. It is written to “eagerly desire the greater gifts..” But should we *make* ourselves “eagerly desire” a particular gift? I don’t think so, I don’t think Paul was talking about emotional hype – but it is the Spirit who gives us a genuine desire for any particular spiritual thing, so that we will begin to seek for that which He desires for us.
I know that when I began to desire and seek the gift of speaking in tongues, it was some time after receiving the Holy Spirit, and I also went through some struggles concerning it, but in the end it was the Lord who answered my prayers and seeking and arranged everything, in His own beautiful way. I guess that’s why I have confidence our loving Father will do the same for any of His children.
Another thought I would just like to put forward is that when scripture says things such as “these signs will follow those who believe”, it is often taken that each and every one of the things listed is for each and every believer, when in reality such passages can be talking about the church body as a whole. There is one body but many parts.
The issue is not about speaking in other languages but receiving the Holy Spirit into the heart. It’s a conversion issue.
Sadly, a multitude of people (including myself) have been taught incorrectly concerning what it means to be born from above, born of water and Spirit.
The 1st century Christians didn’t have the problem we have today because they received the truth directly from Jesus through true apostles and they had ALL things in common and they ALL believed the same doctrine!
Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The truth will be manifested again in these last days and the world will know who the true disciples of Jesus Christ are.
Why do humans argue about the tongue…..when it is the heart that matters? What is in the heart, what one desires most is how we will be judged…..not by how well we speak from our tongues. When at Pentacost…..all the tongues that were spoken there were tongues that were common to the earth….and there were people there that heard the message coming down from God in their own tongue…..so they could understand the message. God is a God of purpose and order. I will never criticize what I don’t understand, nor will I elevate it. When I am overcome by God’s presence I cannot keep the tears (my hearts words) from flowing out of my eyes. I am overwhelmed with love for Him and grief at what we caused Him to suffer. God has not chosen to speak through me by tongues, but through dreams, and direct contact. That is just how I am wired to receive. Others are wired differently. One thing I do know…..it is arrogant for any man to claim to understand or define the Holy Spirit. For any man to claim that the Holy Spirit has to be received in a certain way or testified to in a certain way……is coming very close to speaking against the Holy Spirit….in that “man” is defining things of God. “Man” is always the problem here on earth. We need to look beyond what man says and focus our hearts on the Helper that Christ has given to all Believers, and on how to love God more and more each day.
John 14:15 (Jesus Speaking to His Apostles the last time before He was taken.)If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
Matthew 12:32=And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
That is why I will not speak against tongues or hold up tongues as the only proof of salvation. Any church or dogma that claims they are the only way is basically claiming that they are the only ones who understand God. None of us will be able to understand God until we have our Spirit Bodies once again…..than….as Christ said…..He will be in us and we will be in Him and we all will be in the Eternal Father….One….perfect understanding. I had it for a moment in the dream He gave me….I will never ever forget….but then I was back in this existence, this world….where we are all deep under the sea in a diving suit with one hose connecting us to the Real World, and one small vision plate in our diving helmet to view our world…..very limited. In this worldly condition we should not judge others due to our lack of understanding. Keep our eyes and hearts on Christ….He will take care of all things for us, until we are once again Home, and fully restored. As God shepards me in my studies I have come to learn that ego is at the root of all sin. The last commandment covers all sins not covered by the first nine…Tho shall not Covet. Coveting is all about our ego vs another. Our ego pushing on another. God told me we were not put here to be loved (our ego desires affirmation) but to love His people. Setting aside our own ego and putting others first is what love is all about. Our egos without love will push against others, strive to take up the most room, be at the top. None of those things that have to do with ego will cause us to rise to the top in God’s eyes. The meek, the humble, the least of these, those who have been able to set aside their own ego and self esteem issues, those are the ones that God is talking about. We are complete in Him…..and that completeness will be manifest when Christ returns. Than we will no longer need to seek understanding…..for we will be like Him….we will understand. John 7:38 =(Christ (the Fountain of Living Waters) spoke) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known, But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
We are to trust no man, but put all our trust in the Lord. He knows our hearts and will pull us towards Him by those heart strings, no matter how confused our minds become with the words of man.
JER 17: (5) Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.(6) For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. (7)Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. (8) For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
Don’t you ever get tired of hearing this church say that this other church is false,…..wading through the heavy doctrinal issues that man has applied to the path of salvation….so you can be sure you are aligned correctly? Nothing of man has meaning. We are not to look towards man for our truths. Christ’s yoke is easy, and simple.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Matthew 11:29-30 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Ephesians 4: 30-32 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ also forgave you.
Lord God, Jesus Christ…..hurry and come before we, your children destroy ourselves with our own understandings! ;-)
Having read all the posts thus far…..had not when i previously posted,… I so love how the Holy Spirit Teacher can work around man’s perceptions when man’s hearts are pointing towards Him. He honors that, and bypasses our understandings and misunderstandings and teaches us the truth inspite of ourselves.
At Pentecost, the evidence that was revealed as proof of Baptism was the TRUTH that came down to the Believers….it was not the vehicle in which that TRUTH was delivered. The Holy Spirit took over and used the Believer’s tongue as a vehicle to form words to reveil the TRUTH so others nearby could understand, and know the MIRACLE that just occurred. (To jest…I could say the miracle was that a large gathering of mankind could all speak one word and one truth in harmony at the same time!) It was symbolic of how the Holy Spirit would teach, provide, and lead the Believers to step beyond “themselves” and spread the word to all nations and all tongues. The “words” they spoke….the TRUTH that the “words” revealed to those nearby was the point and evidence of the Holy Spirit Baptism. It was what was needed at the time to demonstrate that Christ was faithful in sending the Holy Spirit to be with His Believers after He left us. As also we could classify the “receptiveness” of the speaker, due to belief in Christ, as evidence of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. When we are totally in love with the LORD, and have set our desires aside for His, we create more space for the Holy Spirit to reside within us.
That being said, any vehicle that offers praises to our LORD and edification to ourselves and the Body of the Church of Jesus Christ’s Believers is not to be diminished. Neither is it to be a measuring stick. The outward signs that mankind seeks can be deceptive, can be taught, and can be worn like sheep skins on a wolf. I seek the signs from the heart, as does my LORD. When the heart overflows and that overflowing comes out in tongues at a worship service or in private….God will honor that which is spoken from the heart….and He can answer the hearts desire if that desire is within His Will.
I was reading scripture today and came across the “stone with 7 eyes”. It made me think of this year and the 6 following which may well be symbolic of the 7 eyes that will be watching mankind during the last 7 years before Christ’s Kingdom comes. Revelation also speaks of a stone striking the seas (which could be symbolic of the peoples of earth). It is time to stop arguing about the gifts like children at a gifting party and open ourselves and humble ourselves to receive and be content with whatever the LORD desires for us in these times coming….so that we may be useful to Him and His purpose….not turning any Seeker away….before that Great Day comes.
Zechariah 3:9=For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
While it is true that the “tongues” issue has certainly been abused, and some people have been overly pressured to ‘produce’ something that is not the real thing – none of this changes the reality.
Here is what I know. The most powerful transforming experience of my life in Jesus came when I was filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. The same happened with my wife, with our family, and countless people that I have met.
You can argue all you like, and “tone things down” if you want, but nothing will change this reality for me. It is a completely biblical experience and I believe we need to STRONGLY encourage everyone to seek after it.
If it transformed my life, and countless others, why wouldn’t we want everyone to have it? Why all the arguments?
God bless you!
Andrew Strom.
The first reality for me of the speaking in an unknown tongue was one of love and blessing instead of cursing or cussing. That in itself was my new language, which was a holy and pure language from the heart, which had been changed from an unholy one.
The other came many years later when I was trying to express something that I had no words with which to express.
I will let you guys be the judge as to when I was filled with the Holy Spirit/breath/wind and my life was transformed.
I mean I have read on here where the devil speaks in tongues??? Yet I can agree because I used to speak a profane language myself, and it was where anyone could understand it.
Do I discourage a heavenly language? no, but I do not make it the determining factor as to whether one has the Spirit of God or not.
The testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy, not speaking in tongues.
Teshuva said: I mean I have read on here where the devil speaks in tongues???
That statement is correct. The kingdom of Satan counterfeits everything from the Kingdom of God. All the gifts, and even the order of God’s Kingdom is duplicated for evil.
Very, very rare in the Western nations, in my view.
“Flesh” and ‘pretend’ speaking in tongues? -Yes – this is a lot more common.
People get put off seeking for the gifts by such talk.
“If a child asks his father for bread, will he give him a stone?”
“How much more will our Father give the true, pure Holy Spirit to those who ask Him.”
How about those people who are getting demonized in these emergent churches, and charismatic churches gone wrong.
Then comes speaking in tongues of demons as well as “spiritual marriages”…which is happening already in some places.
Maybe the focus should be for what purpose is the Holy Spirit given. In the times of the early Apostles it was given in order to do the work of God. There was also a time of discipleship before that gift was given.
The Bible clearly says in Luke 11 and elsewhere-
“If a child asks his father for bread, will he give him a stone?”
“How much more will our Father give the true, pure Holy Spirit to those who ask Him.”
Counterfeits exist – but if we ask Jesus for the true pure Holy Spirit – then that is what we can expect. It is a promise of Scripture.
Bless you!
Andrew
Thank you Andrew, as I have to believe that what I speak is from Him and not the enemy.
If we being EVIL know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to them that love Him.
If I can not trust Him to cause the meditation of my heart and the words of my mouth to be acceptable in His sight, then who am I to trust when I am not to lean to my own understanding?
Michelle,
As I read one of your earlier messages of today I was greatly encouraged. In fact I saw a tree with branches and leaves and fruit of which I had no problem to eat.
Shalom
You guys can go ahead and think that no one in the church is speaking in a false spirit with a false tongue.
This all comes right back to knowing exactly who it is that is giving the spirit. Test the spirit!
From the posts on this site showing the charismatic stuff gone so wrong, it is a warning that the occult is hitting the church.
Funny that no one thinks that it could happen in their own neck of the woods.
I think it does happen. And if you are caught up in Lakeland-style counterfeits and weirdness – yes – it is more likely.
Some also simply “pretend” in the flesh.
But on the whole, if you ask for bread, the Father will give you only bread. Seek from the pure source (God Himself) and you will receive.
And if “laying on of hands” is happening – which is a very biblical thing – check that they are not into this “mania” stuff.
FEAR is not of God. Seeking and trusting Him is.
Bless you!
Andrew
Mat 24:24 says there will be false christs and false prophets come working lying signs and wonders so much so that if it were possible even the elect shall be deceived.
Our protection is the Word of God and to do what it says. It’s clear we can’t just go by what kind of feeling we have. If that were true, then all the New Age stuff that feels good would be true! The scriptures say to test the spirits because many false prophets have gone out in the world.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
It it amazing how many do not think they can fall or be deceived. We are supposed to test ourselves.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
No, we are not to fear anyone except the Lord. What fear is there in testing? Why such the resistance to this.
Michelle,
If I have offended you I apologize.
I do not attend church, however if I did I would still have to trust Father to lead me and protect me.
Fear is a spirit, God said that he did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
I have to believe this and to keep my eyes on Him.
It doesn’t make any sense that testing is equated with fear. Unless a person does not understand how to deal with a false spirit.
The only fear there should be is of the Lord. It is the beginning of wisdom.
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Respect given to you all.
Andrew said: “You can argue all you like, and “tone things down” if you want, but nothing will change this reality for me. It is a completely biblical experience and I believe we need to STRONGLY encourage everyone to seek after it. If it transformed my life, and countless others, why wouldn’t we want everyone to have it? Why all the arguments?”
I know how you feel, we should pray that all are given a one on one contact with God via the Holy Spirit. I would just suggest that we pray for that one on one contact for all to be by any method God choses…not making His touch conform to what we experienced. My contact transformed my mind, and my reality……never will I doubt that there is a God because of the dream He gave me, and the mind speak, and the voice spoken out loud when no one was there. All led me towards Christ and greater understanding and love….not away. The Dream was totally verified in my subsequent studies of the Bible. He gave me the dream before I was a student of the Bible. I was a Believer since a little girl coming to Him through His creations and word of mouth. I pray every day that He allows others to be transformed by His touch, by His whisper, by His breath, by His love, by any of the gifts that He can bestow upon us who deserve not even His glance. I believe, however, that before that can happen, we must acknowledge who we are without Him. That is what humbles us, and makes us realize that all glory belongs to God, and none to us. That is what makes us teachable via the Holy Spirit.
That is what my dream was all about….pictured in a visual parable the story of His lost spiritually dead children, His journey to find them, and what happened when He did. I was already a Believer, but not a church goer when I had this dream in my 30′s. I was also very comfortable in life with no stress or fears. The dream was not a thing that I sought, and it was a total surprise, and it was like an after death experience….it shook me to my core! I asked Him, “Why did you give me this dream…this knowledge, I am not worthy? As time passed I realized it was because of my prayers as a little girl.
When I was little…about 7 I prayed for understanding and knowledge so I would not hate, I prayed that He would destroy the world and remake it as it shoud be, even if I were destroyed also, so that His creations would no longer suffer the curse that man put upon them. Looking back I realize this frame of mind totally took my ego out of the prayer, and made it a prayer of totally wanting His Will…with no concern for my benefit or gain. He honored that prayer from an innocent child who sought not to hate her parents. Almost at the same time He gave me the ability to process and understand the root core of other’s behavior. I understood why my parents were the way they were….and I felt sympathy for them and their unmet needs. That understanding caused me to pray that i would never become hardened by the hurts that came from others or life…so that by remaining soft I would continue to be open to growth. Throughout my life He continues to honor these prayers that came from the child’s heart.
And, because I agree with you that it would be utterly “unloving” NOT to share with others….the most powerful and wonderful experience I have had with Jesus…I share that dream below which was meant for all of us. Many years later He helped me write a poem about it…and it was named: Christ’s Glorious Task. It was His way of picturing in my mind Christ’s Glorious Task, so that no doctrinal arguments of man could cause me confusion in this Latter time. It is a dream that I have always felt I was meant to share and give away. I also believe that it is a marker that it is indeed my generation that is the fig tree generation. My birthday sometimes falls upon Passover and sometimes on the Jewish First Day of their year. I find it interesting that I was born on the year that the United Nations was created….and very possibly that was also the time that the call went out to reestablish the nation of Israel, which may have started the 70 years that they have been given to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Danial, Chapter 9). Anyway….the Dream…….
It started in the bright sunlight, I was seeing out of the eyes of the one who was walking. I was not aware of another walking with this person. The walk was taking place on a beautiful flowered and grass covered hillside that bordered the woods. He said, “There is a child who died before they had a chance to grow. Let us go find him.” (Exact wording…I will never forget these words.) These were the only words actually spoken in the dream.
Then, still seeing out of the eyes of the speaker, He approached and entered the woods. He walked through the dark woods, eventually coming into a clearing in the midst of the woods. In this clearing, in the center, was an old, decaying, falling down cabin/dwelling, with a deck, also mostly collapsed in the front portion. I am still seeing out of His eyes.
He approaches the deck and reaches towards some old grey cabinets that are on the deck against the cabin wall facing outward. He opens the door of a cabinet and out falls, tumbling down, an ancient old mummified corpse of a half grown child, frozen in the fetal position. (Know this….I am not squeamish by nature in any way. When I discover a dead animal i like to look into it to see how it is put together or what might be there.) This corpse, much like the images we have seen coming from the Nazi extermination camps, fell out and came to rest at the feet of this Man….silent and still.
I, in the dream, at this point, am made to feel a horrible abomination, fear, disgust, loathing of this thing. I am no longer looking from His eyes, but I am now placed at the parameter of the clearing looking towards the event that is occurring. I am silently shouting within my dream/mind…”Get away, I must leave, and get away from this thing.” Not the exact words, but with the same feeling as in a nightmare, I was made to feel at this point in the dream. (My heart is starting to race….even as I type these words.)
Peering from the edge of the clearing, I see Him look down at this “thing”. Then….I see this thing start to move. (Such fear washes over me!) It moves more,…. unfolding from the fetal position, still laying on it’s side, it twists its upper body towards the Man….and stretches it’s small, dry, shrunken, ancient arms upward towards the Man….hands opened, as if asking to be picked up. (And…now, I writing about the dream, cry, feeling and remembering this moment in the dream. Tho while in the dream I was still one who was horrified at this thing at this event happening…much as satan would have felt.)
Instantly I am awash with love radiating from the Man. Heavy, an almost visible solid love…..like I have never, and will never experience in this world from human or animal sources. I have only experienced this love from Godly sources. As I watch, He is looking down at the thing who has upraised it’s arms. The Man starts to bend down, and continues to bend down, reaching out His arms, touching the thing. The love I am experiencing in the dream is almost too much to bear. The Man picks up the thing, and lifts it up, bringing it close to His chest, and tucks it under His chin. He holds it tight as a woman holds her young child. He starts to walk, slowly, walking back and forth, holding the child tight to Himself.
As I watch, ( I am no longer afraid, or having feelings of abomination and disgust at this time in the dream.) I am startled to notice that the child is changing. The deathliness and ancient decay of the corpse things is giving way to the renewed beauty of the child. But the change continues…and the Man continues to walk back and forth, calmly and quietly, loving and holding the child.
As I watch, I see that the child is turning transparent, and as the process continues,…. the walk of the Man continues while holding the child….the child turns into a totally transparent, crystal clear like water or glass, baby of about 9 months of age from the size of it! The Man stops his walking to and fro, and He holds this glorious, radiant, reflecting the light, crystal clear child between His hands and lifts him up into the air towards the Heavens, as tho He were offering the child to the Father…His Task completed.
Then, I was instantly transported into this radiant, transparent baby child (This gift of God that He prepared)….i was surrounded by the firmament of space and stars. This is the really hard part…how to describe what it felt like being within this child….being this child. I was totally freed from the weight and chains of sin and death. My intellect and mind was no longer shaded by the conditions of the earthly mind….totally brilliant in it’s working. My soul and love and will was totally in harmony with God’s. I knew that I could in the blink of an eye go to any spot in creation and do the Will of God and was totally equipped to do it. I was totally free, yet my will was His Will. The power, the love, the knowledge….it was indescribable….the existence in this new body.
Then I awoke….I was back in the chaos of this world, the death of this world, the heaviness of this world. I jumped from bed, and was scurrying from room to room, bawling in despair, needing, wanting to go back, not wanting to lose that wonderful existence…..truly like an after death experience from what I have read. Eventually I was comforted by the thoughts that some day, I…we all….will be able to go to our real home…we just have to be patient.
This dream was fully interpreted upon awakening….and all of you Believers can also know the interpretation. The bright sunshine was Heaven. The man was Christ. The forest was this earth. The clearing was what mankind has done to earth. The cabin was our accomplishments. The mummified child’s corpse was fallen man, slain by his disobedience to God and his belief in the lies of the dragon. That wonderful child of glass was our transfigured bodies that Christ has promised us…..the least of all that is promised. Nothing in this earth….no matter the riches or amount of success can even compare to this wonderful gift. One could own the entire world and rule it…..and that condition could still not compare to being in this new body that was made for the lost who were found and saved, and who endure to the end, made for us by Our Lord, totally all the work was His, all the Glory was His, we can take credit for nothing….except recognizing our need for Him and raising our arms to Him and resting in His arms, safe, tucked beneath His chin while He transforms us, restores us.
I believe that the corpse of a child is what we all became when as God’s Spirit Children we were deceived and were placed in earthly bodies, and when man fell in Eden. We became dead and disgusting….un clean in the eyes of The Father.
I believe some of the horrific feelings that I was made to feel, to witness so to speak, were the feelings that satan felt when witnessing Christ paying the price for us, Christ finding us, loving us, and us recognizing our need and lifting our arms to Christ for salvation. This has to be a terrible event for satan to witness as it brings all his plans for personal glory to ruin.
God’s Kingdom Come! God’s Will be Done!
Claudia
James 4: 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Below is the poem that God helped me to write, when I had given up my own struggles to create it!
Christ’s Glorious Task
In the clearing of man’s decay,
The Son found me on that fateful day.
A child, lost, no chance to grow;
Struck down by God’s jealous evil foe.
Dead in this life, arms raised to Him;
To be reborn and freed from sin,
forever more to be preserved,
And sanctified in His Holy Word.
To His heart I was embraced,
and in His arms I’ve found my place,
Near His heart, close, warm and safe.
A product of His loving Grace.
He showed me an image of what I was;
A corpse so dead and without love.
He showed me now just where I am;
Tucked with love beneath His chin.
He showed me what I am to be;
My life in all His Eternity.
There’s nothing here to compare,
To the promises waiting there.
* * * *
I WILL TAKE CARE OF ALL YOUR NEEDS.
JUST LOVE MY PEOPLE WHILE YOUR HERE,
FOR WHAT’S TO COME IS YET TO BE.
I NEED YOU HERE TO PLANT THE SEEDS.
* * * *
When He has completed me,
An offering to our Father I will be.
Crystal clear, a child of Living glass,
Light reflecting in Christ’s Glorious Task.
—————————–
May I also say, staying on topic of ENCOURAGEMENT, that this dream has not lost one ounce of clarity as most human dreams do….and I can think upon the dream when I am tired and low…..and I am lifted up with His Promise that is contained in the dream…and the rememberance of what is to come. Our life is very short here, when compared to eternity….don’t let the world get you down….we have great things coming…..great things to accomplish when we are totally emmersed in Him…..forever!
Andrew
Surely an abuser of God’s gifts does not in any way diminish the gift, or The Giver.
“While it is true……..why all the arguments?”
As far as I can see, everything you say and have experienced is supported 100% by scripture and confirms my own, including thousands of my brothers/sisters in Him.
The arguments, from my observation come mainly from those who have not (yet) had the experience. Is there is some sound logic revealed here?
“If your experience is totally Biblical you are not at the mercy of those who have an argument only.”
I believe Jesus in John.3 toward Nicodemus used this same doctrine . “We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.”
This in the same context as “….so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
Paul likewise said he wished that all would have this gift.
We can but urge those standing by to “Taste and see that The Lord is good’
Pr Michael
Hi Tim
You tend to jump in like Peter did with Christ, before getting to know a person. I have stated my position on tongues on the forum. I go with what Paul said, to seek earnestly the best gifts: but don’t forbid to speak in tongues. People make too much of tongues speaking. Some of us have spoken in tongues at an early age, e.g. seventeen and eighteen, yet don’t seem to have moved on to other gifts since that day. But Paul is saying,
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
To desire, and pray for, with eagerness; to desire earnestly to obtain or possess; in a good sense the best gifts.
In Christ,
Bruce.
Hi Wayne.
Paul is saying in the verse below that we are to comfort ourselves TOGETHER, and edify ONE ANOTHER. We are one body in Christ, are we not? Then we should work together as his body.
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
If you look closely, Jude is saying the very same thing as Paul. ‘Yourselves’, and ‘yourselves together’. Jude is speaking to group of believers.
Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Now praying in the Holy Spirit it is not speaking in tongues. It’s by faith praying as the Spirit gives you the words to say.
In answer to your question, which are the best gifts, I think Paul makes it quite clear that even a babe in the faith could understand.
1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
EDIFICA’TION, n. [L. oedificatio. See Edify.]
A building up, in a moral and religious sense; instruction; improvement and progress of the mind, in knowledge, in morals, or in faith and holiness.
He that prophesieth, speaketh to men to edification. 1 Cor 14.
(Below is taken from the Webster’s Dictionary)
1. Make understand.
2. To build; to construct.
3. To instruct and improve, especially in moral and religious knowledge; to teach.
4. To teach or persuade.
5. To improve.
6. Base verb from the following inflections: edifying, edified, edifies, edifier, edifiers, edifyingly and edifiedly.
1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
Most of what Paul says in his epistles (letters) is teaching, especially in moral and religious knowledge, and charity (love) toward the brethren.
Nowhere does it say anything about loving oneself so that we can love someone else.
By the way I have sat under the teachings of Rodney Francis and his team of young guys, and I was also ‘prophesied’ over. It must be over twelve years ago now.
In Christ,
Bruce.
Hi,
I know of a case where the pastor would not allow anyone on the management board of the church unless he/she spoke in tongues, because he believed they weren’t Spirit filled if they didn’t. Speaking in tongues is not the credentials to prove one is Spirit filled. A person may have received a wrong spirit when being prayed for as in the case of Rodney Howard Brown and Kenneth Copeland and the Toronto phenomenon.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
This teaches us that the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation for all those who truly believe: “Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”
Tongues and any other Spiritual gifts may come immediately, or some where along one’s Christian walk, when the Lord and that person is ready for that experience. But because one hasn’t received the gift of tongues or any other Spiritual gift does not mean he has not received the Holy Spirit.
In Christ,
Bruce.
So now, out of FEAR, some people have stopped seeking after this gift.
This is the devil’s work.
Throw up counterfeits, so everyone gets scared – even of good and important gifts from God.
When the Holy Spirit comes, there is “utterance”
This is the testimony of all Scripture.
We cannot “FEAR”. We must seek to enter in to all God has for us.
Bless you!
Andrew Strom.
Bruce
How can you have the gifts of the Spirit without the Spirit?
The Holy Spirit is the whole package, it contains all the gifts.
Paul tells us “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:” and John tells us “of His fulness have we all received…”
This circumcision is the cutting away from the flesh and the world. it is the work of repentance, God’s love, his Word and Holy Spirit.
Please allow me to tell of my experience.
I personally know hundreds of folk now aged from 20 to over 60 years who received the Holy Ghost and spoke in the new language at 7, 8, 9, years or so, to the best of my knowledge none of these folk ever cursed robbed etc after that mighty life changing experience.whilst going through the difficult teen years they mixed with a pretty seedy lot at public schools all the while being a shining light in their situation, bringing many of their fellow students and in some cases teachers to know the Lord. The main things that set them apart from other kids were:- Their righteous life, confidence, unbounded faith, joy, while not having to turn to “the bright lights” of the world. They prayed in the Spirit (tongues) often – it built them up in the faith. They will all tell us that one of the vital things that kept their spirits up was the ability to do so, (pray in the Spirit -tongues), entering the secret place (closet) Jesus spoke of: knowing/experiencing that praying in tongues was their direct line of contact with their Lord.
Please understand they are GIFTS! God is not an “indian” giver, and the “gifts of” (given) to the prophets are “subject to” (under the authority of) the prophets.
The abuse/misuse of any of the gifts (and it happens Paul wrote to set right, such abuse in the Corinthian church) is the fault of the of the person who has the gift, or the false shepherds of Ezekiel 34.
Pr Michael
The last few months have been the hardest in my life. Everything that could be shaken was shaken on a multitude of fronts all at the same time.
There were days that prayer or reading the Bible was not possible. The only thing I could do was hang on to faith.
That was the lowest time. Then after awhile I was able to pray and say anything that is not of you, God, take away. Slowly over the course of these months, He has given back the things He wanted in my life. Some things are the same as before, but many things are gone. Other things are new.
One main thing that has happened is He has put a holy fear in me. Who ever came up with the saying “it put the fear of God in me” knew what they were talking about.
When I was able to start reading the Bible again, Psalm 88 gave my silent heart cry a voice.
Psa 88:1 A Song or Psalm for the sons of Korah, to the chief Musician upon Mahalath Leannoth, Maschil of Heman the Ezrahite. O LORD God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee:
Psa 88:2 Let my prayer come before thee: incline thine ear unto my cry;
Psa 88:3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
Psa 88:4 I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:
Psa 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
Psa 88:6 Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.
Psa 88:7 Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah.
Psa 88:8 Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth.
Psa 88:9 Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee.
Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Psa 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
Psa 88:13 But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee.
Psa 88:14 LORD, why castest thou off my soul? why hidest thou thy face from me?
Psa 88:15 I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted.
Psa 88:16 Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off.
Psa 88:17 They came round about me daily like water; they compassed me about together.
Psa 88:18 Lover and friend hast thou put far from me, and mine acquaintance into darkness.
Recently, Psalm 119 has been speaking to me.
Psa 119:65 TETH. Thou hast dealt well with thy servant, O LORD, according unto thy word.
Psa 119:66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.
Psa 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
Psa 119:68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:69 The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart.
Psa 119:70 Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.
Psa 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.
Psa 119:72 The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.
I’ve been accused of not having the Joy of the Lord on numerous occasions. Especially recently. But you know what? The giddy, let’s all just praise the Lord and pass the bacon type stuff seems so fake and insufficient. Almost profane. Joy is not happiness. It is something the Lord gives that brings contentment and peace no matter what life throws out.
There has also been the idea from some that I live in fear. Well, yes, I suppose I do. That is the fear of the Lord. The reason for that, is because I know exactly what He can place upon me. This is not an unhealthy fear with a picture of Him standing over to smite me for any little thing done wrong, but it is a holy fear of His rod of correction. Much like the fear a child has of being spanked by the parent. Or of a child after being warned what could happen while crossing the street, is diligent in making sure there are no cars to cause a splat. But, man, is He ever faithful if I do go splat. He peels the carcass off the road, melts it down, and continues with His masterpiece. Almost like the splat was planned to work a certain purpose.
Which brings this all around to where I find myself these days..
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Do we not know that our bodies are the temple of God and if so the temple is Holy, sacred.
That which is contained with in is fearfully and wonderfully made.
As our souls magnify the Lord instead of the enemy then we are building ourselves up on our most Holy faith, so that we can with clean lips allow our spirit to praise God.
We have been told of the way of the world but coming from our temple, there should be nothing to promote but a life of love, joy, peace, long suffering, goodness,kindness, faithfulness, meekness, temperance, because God is these.
Surely if these are prevalent within us then he will not destroy the temple of which we are. For me to declare anything else is to cast a shadow of doubt on my own soul.
God is big in my eyes and said that He will make all His enemies His footstool. God is a consuming fire and as we grow then the ways of the world do wither away within us, and allows us to be perfected in the image that we lost in the fall.
Lest we forget…
Self-encouragement has its root in remembering God’s faithfulness while adjusting ones’ focus again. Whatever we focus on in life gets bigger and bigger and becomes our driving motivation. When we focus on our self we become proud. When we focus on the problems we face they overwhelm and paralyze us, leading to despair.
Your heart always follows your eyes, your focus.
King David looked back and saw God’s faithfulness. He remembered how God had empowered him to slay Goliath and win many battles.
He had learned that, as long as his focus was on the Lord, everything was going to be okay.
A great lesson to be learned.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
About tongues..
Christ Jesus said, “And these signs WILL FOLLOW those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; THEY WILL SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” – Mark 16:17-18.
So, from the above verse we are sure, that all of the above stated signs will follow every believer born of God, believing in Christ Jesus. If Christ Jesus said that you will speak with new tongues, it is so; period. Christ Jesus stated, “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, HOW MUCH MORE WILL YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER GIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THOSE WHO ASK HIM.” – Luke 11: 13.
Take for instance King Solomon who asked God to give him an understanding heart to judge God’s people; and Scripture says that God was pleased with his speech and granted him not only his request, but riches and honor too. (Ref. 1st Kings 3:7-14). In the book of James we read, ‘If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But let him ask in faith with no doubting..’ – James 1:5-6. In Hebrew 11:6 we read, ‘But without faith it is impossible to please Him, FOR HE WHO COMES TO GOD MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS, AND THAT HE IS A REWARDER OF THOSE WHO DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM.’ But there certainly is a qualifier which Christ Jesus specified, saying, “If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. – John 15:7. If we satisfy the above requirement, and yet do not receive, then we must check our motive, for we read in James in chapter 4, verse 3 says, ‘You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.’
—————————————————————————————-
About encouragement..
From the time I was a two year old till this day, my life was VERY TOUGH. Yet, through it all, I have experienced tremendous grace. Whenever I was down in my spirit, it was God’s Spirit that encouraged me. He would wake me up in the middle of the night and lead me to confess His Words/promises over my life. He removed the sting each time whatever it was, and used to fill me with His joy, even before I was given the gift of tongues. As I look back, it is a joy to recollect, how His loving arms carried me all these years. Satan and his followers have tried hard, ever since I was a child, to wipe us as a family (me, my parents, siblings and my three children) from the face of the earth, and they were unsuccessful in all their attempts till date. All Glory to God. My God’s love for me is just amazing. He continues to keep amazing me with His grace and love. More than me encouraging myself, it was God, who was ever beside me. He is more real to me than my parents/siblings/children/friends. All that I want to say is, ‘Seek His face and He will envelop you with his love and bestow on you His choicest blessings, and surround you by His grace. And your life will turn out to be a testimony, for His Glory. It is in the darkest night that you find those stars shining brightly; even the faintest of them becoming visible to your eye. It is in those solitary moments that you look up to the sky, to behold the glory of God Almighty. Just hum the lines,
‘When I look into your holiness,
When I gaze upon your loveliness,
Then all things that surround me become shadows in the light of You;
I worship You….
In Christ,
Sheeja
Those who are born again are not greater than one who is not born again……however their end will be far different! Those who have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit…..if true to the heart of The Spirit will not ever think they are better or greater than someone who has not received the experience.
That is not what it is about at all…..”tongues” is a sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Now like it or not it is, and if someone feels less “spiritual” then that is their personal problem to deal with. Until I received the tongues I just keep seeking and knocking and asking and believing. I died to my pride and did not ever try to say that I was Baptized with the Holy Spirit till I had the manifestation of it…speaking in tongues. If we refuse to accept the fact, then we are never going to receive the experience. The “power” is the HEART of the issue, NOT THE TONGUES! However…..TONGUES is the EVIDENCE!
Pride keeps us thinking we have it, and so we cheat and rob ourselves. I did not care one bit what people THOUGHT, but cared what the Lord wanted for me and what He thought, and what the Word said…..so I kept on seeking and the day came when I did receive and it was beyond glorious!
Just think what I would have missed if in my pride I refused to admit that I had not received. No one is more or less spiritual either way! We are talking about “power” NOT being more “spiritual!” Power to cast out devils, heal the sick, speak in tongues……THE SIGNS OF THEM THAT BELIEVE!! I did not say they were the SIGNS, GOD DID! Tongues are a SIGN of them that believe!! Unless you think the Word is lying there. So keep seeking and knocking and believing! God wants us to have signs as Believers….such as….casting out devils, healing the sick, speaking in tongues. Not all Christians have those signs. Are they going to Heaven? Yes! I was raised in the Evangelical church growing up and they did not have those signs…but loved God and were precious!
And the evangelical churches are just as wacky as the Charismatic churches. We have a ton of them here and many come to our bible school and the stories they tell my husband and me about their wacky evangelical churches……good grief! No one denomination…..whether Evangelical or Pentecostal…Charismatic have the corner on wacky-ness! We are not to seek and look to “churches” but seek and look to the Living God and His Word!
The power of God is in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and so the devil does all he can to discredit the churches who teach and believe it! I rarely hear disparaging stories of those churches who do not teach and believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Some ARE wild-fire, but I would far rather have some wild fire than a sopping wet blanket! Not to excuse wacky stuff, but we ALL sin and fall short of His glory!
Oh my, I appear to have unintentionally lighted up a firestorm of controversy. This certainly wasn’t my intent; however, the long dissertations attempting to defend what appears to be the supremacy of speaking in tongues, merely proves my point. It saddens me that this spirit of division still exists within the body today.
Andrew: You said “The most powerful transforming experience of my life in Jesus came when I was filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.”
Wow! Did you really mean that? I hope not. I would think the most transforming experience of your life in Jesus is when you realized you were a sinner in need of a saviour and you repented and followed Jesus.
I will stand corrected if you can point to me any scriptural authority (the source of all we know about what God has told us) where it says that this should be the most “transforming experience of your life in Jesus.” From my studies, I never see any evidence of this “experience” in scripture.
This is the point I was trying to make; that we shouldn’t be basing our faith on our “experiences” (e.g. our emotions). It should be based on God’s word as revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, then we experience this revelation as it works in our life.
If I didn’t come here with a spirit of love, I wouldn’t even bother responding as I’m not one to engage in pointless debates. Andrew, you are my brother, I love you, and respect what you have been doing. What I want to tell you is that our enemy, the devil, is alive and well. You have gotten his attention and you have become a threat to his plans to deceive those involved with all this nonsense that is out there.
You have been a tireless warrior for the Kingdom of God in fighting these battles and are to be commended. I continue to encourage you in this.
What I am trying to warn you of, as a brother, is to not be deceived yourself. Satan would like nothing more than how God is using you than to bring you down with the same deception you have been fighting against. Don’t think it can’t happen to you because it can. You freely admit you were previously deceived when you were caught up in the whole prophetic movement. That should be a warning to you that you have the ability to be deceived.
Please consider that it just may be possible that God is using me to use discernment (another gift of the body) and to warn you. I’m not here to draw attention to myself, but to warn. If I don’t then I am disobeying what God is asking me to do.
Sorry for going on longer than I usually do.
TheDude – brother, I have studied and studied this experience in Scripture – and I have to say that EVERY conversion experience that we see detailed in the Book of Acts has this momentous infilling of the Holy Spirit. If you go to Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 9, Acts 10 and 11, Acts 19, Acts 22 – and look at all the thousands of people getting converted (individuals too) – you also see them getting filled with the Holy Spirit right then and there.
It was clearly expected to happen RIGHT AWAY.
I have written a whole article on this.
Bless you!
Andrew Strom.
There are many scriptures which refer to our tongues. Most scriptures that refer to the word “tongue” are not speaking of the gifted Heavenly one. That being said, one cannot assume that when Christ spoke before His ascension that Believers would “speak with new tongues”…that He was refering to “other” tongues..gifted tongues…speaking in tongues, as occurred during Pentacost. I believe that it was more likely He was speaking of that new person and the new tongue that person would have after changing to a Believer.
Gen.10:20=These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations.
You can see by the above scripture that “tongues” is often used to denote “families”. When we become a new Believer we join a new Family….we no longer have the tongue of the old family.
Jer.23:31=Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
In the above scripture the “tongue” is refering to the falseness of the words spoken. A condition of the internal man.
Acts 2:4=And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
The above scripture adds the word “other” in front of “tongues” to specifically indicate that this is a supernatural ability…whether that ability is a language of another people, or the language of the angels.
Rev. 13:7=And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The above scripture…”tongues” is probably “languages”.
There are scriptures that refer to the tongue that condemns us…such as the words that come forth that reveal a nasty spirit, foul language, words of deception, etc. You are all familiar with those scriptures. The word “tongue” in these scriptures is referring to the words spoken and the meaning behind the words….the soul within that the spoken words reveal. When one has become a true Believer, they are changed inside, the old is made “new”. The scripture below which Seeja posted states that the Believer will speak with new tongues. It is perfectly reasonable to interpret this scripture to mean that the words coming from the new Believer’s mouth will reflect the new person within….they are new words that were not previously in his vocabulary…in his mind. He will have put the old person aside and the old way of speaking and speak with a new tongue. A tongue of love, not condemnation, a tongue of light, not darkness, a tongue of softness not hardness, a tongue of truth, not of the lie. A tongue of generosity, not leaness. That is the way that I have always interpreted that specific scripture….with the assistance of the Holy Spirit who knows I seek truth with all of my heart…..and Whom is my only teacher.
I have chosen not to read the books written by man, no matter how well done, that tell me what to believe or interpret things in the Bible, because I did not want to be influenced by man while on my journey with the Holy Spirit.
Seeja wrote: “Christ Jesus said, “And these signs WILL FOLLOW those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; THEY WILL SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” – Mark 16:17-18.”
Jesus ascended after speaking the above words. When we see Him next…we all will be able to speak with angels, because we will be like Him.
All Believer’s, now, can plug into the Holy Spirit within, under Jesus Christ’s name and authority, and remove demons (if the demon is truly there) and heal via the same powers, if it is in God’s Will, and if we are not tempting Him.
The bit about serpents and deadly drinks is in part about God’s promise to keep them healthy and strong in as much as they are tuned in to their “belief”. I walked the woods barefoot as a child, jumped over many rattlesnakes accidentally while playing….held them in my hands (if you know how to do it, it is very safe.) He kept me safe. Drank from raw streams, drank sodas, and other deadly concoctions of our commercial Babylonian economic system, not to mention the processed foods, and who knows what else….and He has protected my health.
It is also possible that “take up serpents” is refering to battling with the dragon’s spiritual influence upon this earth and within our lives….not literal serpents. The “drinking anything deadly” could also in part be refering to the false doctrines and deadly to the soul subltle and not so subtle satanic influences that are being poured out upon our earth like a flood, that are so prevelant in our world today, not only in the churches but in our schools, media, entertainment areas….all things which we “drink” into our beings everyday. We cannot avoid them. But…if we are a true Believer, our LORD can keep us safe and erase their deadly affect. The scripture below illustrates the poison of the serpent that comes from the tongues that we are surrounded with in this day of the Liar.
Rom.3:13=Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Also…all Believers (who by their Belief have overcome death and have plugged in to eternity) will eventually be in their Spiritual Bodies when Christ has finished His task with us….and we literally will have defied death through Christ in all its varous forms….and we all will be fullfilling that scripture and demonstrating those signs, not as proof that we are Believers, but as restored Children of God within the Mellinium….as Helpers.
I believe that Christ was refering to the new tongue of the new man within that occurs when the Believer’s soul is opened to the Holy Spirit influence, on the occasion that He spoke before His ascension.
The bottom line is that Christ is in a time zone that is drastically different than the one that He imprisoned fallen man within while man is being restored. A day of the LORD is a 1,000 years of mankind. Jesus has only been descended for about 2 days of His time. Easily within another few minutes of His time, we Believers will all have the gift of the supernatural tongues…because we will be dealing with peoples of all languages and the angels.
Now…..that is a WORD OF ENCOURAGEMENT!
BRUCE SKELTON:
I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying in my third last post to you. I was not saying that we should not build up each other in the Body of Christ. I agree that we definitely should build up or edify others in the Body of Christ.
I was responding to your untrue claim that “To build oneself up is not something the Lord tells us to do.”
In response, I gave you Scripture where the Lord tells us that we ARE to build up or edify ourselves. He teaches us in those passages that this is done by praying in tongues or praying in the Holy Spirit. There are other implied ways to edify ourselves, I’m sure (e.g. reading, studying, or meditating upon the Scriptures; listening and/or participating in good hymns or Christian music, etc.).
Also, your claim that the English word “edification” does have as one of its obscure meanings, “to teach or instruct” is correct.
However, that is not, at all, the meaning of the Greek word used in the original writing of the New Testament. Once again, that word is “οἰκοδομέω” or anglicized, “oikodomeō” which is a verb meaning “to build, build up, erect, edify, or encourage.” It does NOT carry the meaning of “instruct or teach.”
I know you embrace the KJV Only heresy which believes that the KJV is the ONLY and truly inspired Word of God. Part of that heresy is the belief that the KJV English is to interpret and “correct” the original Greek and Hebrew in which the Scriptures were originally written. However, I think it is a heresy which most involved in this site would reject.
For the sake of Truth, I will encourage the readers of this site not to get sucked into this heresy by a backdoor sneaking-in of one of its teachings. The languages the Bible was originally written in MUST be what defines and guides English translations – NOT the other way around.
So, your claim that the use of “edify” in the passages under discussion means to “teach” of “instruct” is NOT valid – or true – by any standards of historical evangelical, principles of Bible interpretation. Nor is it accepted by any legitimate standards of study and education within any recognized educational institute (be it secular or Christian) that I am aware of. The only exception to this may be one or two schools founded by KJV Only heretics in an attempt to perpetrate their heresy.
You also said, “Nowhere does it say anything about loving oneself so that we can love someone else.”
So, what WAS Christ saying when He said “Love your neighbour as yourself”? Was He saying we should hate ourselves so we can love our neighbour? Really?!! Obviously, if we are to love our neighbour as we love ourself, then we MUST love ourself – right? Or maybe, somehow in your mind the answer is “No.”
You are free to believe what you want but you I don’t think you can legitimately make your above statement when Christ obviously states that we are to love our neighbour as WE LOVE OURSELVES. Or is that one of the mistakes in one of the six different revisions the KJV went through in its first 160 years of existence? Maybe you’re using the wrong revision of the KJV.
You should also know that your story of the pastor who required his management board to have the evidence of speaking in tongues actually has Biblical precedent. In Acts 6, the apostles gave the requirements of those who were to serve as deacons (or a management board, if you wish). One of those requirements was that they were “full of the Holy Spirit.” In the context of the Book of Acts, they would have had to have spoken in tongues in order to be “full of the Holy Spirit.”
What it meant to be “full of the Holy Spirit” is seen in the record from the Day of Pentecost:
Acts 2:4 (NKJV) “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
The fact that speaking in tongues was a recognized sign, by the first century church, of the infilling of the Holy Spirit is seen in:
Acts 10:44-46 (NKJV) “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.FOR THEY HEARD THEM SPEAK WITH TONGUES and magnify God.” [emphasis mine]
In other words, they KNEW these Gentiles were filled with the Holy Spirit because they heard them speak with other tongues.
Therefore, the Bible itself tells us what the evidence was of being “filled with the Holy Spirit.” So, that pastor was most likely only trying to be Biblical in his requirement.
It is true that there can be counterfeit “tongues.” However, the other requirements the Bible gives us for one serving in such positions would reveal whether that person is counterfeit or not. (See 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, et al.).
Also, I believe the evaluation of Ephesians 1:13, 14, that the sealing of the Holy Spirit is fulfilled in salvation is less that what it meant to the first century Christians to whom it was written.
Ephesians 1:13-14 (NKJV) “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”
First, the Holy Spirit is referred to as “the Holy Spirit of promise.” Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, we find that the promise of the Holy Spirit is exactly what happened on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, where the Believers were filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.
Christ promised the Holy Spirit in the Gospels such as John 14:16, 17 and Luke 24:49 where He refers to the Holy Spirit as a Promise.
Peter makes it very clear in Acts 2:33 that this describes the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues when he says, “. . . the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now SEE AND HEAR.” He again makes reference to this in verse 39 where he also adds that this “promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
So, we see the Bible defines the “Holy Spirit of promise” – NOT as the coming of the Holy Spirit to bring us to salvation – but defines it as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.
This exegesis is also confirmed by Eph. 1:13, 14 itself. This passage says that this “Holy Spirit of promise” is also “the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, . . .” The language which is used here is very specific. The English word translated “guarantee” or “earnest” in the KJV is “ἀῤῥαβών arrhabōn” a noun meaning
“deposit, pledge, a first installment.”
The KJV translates it “the earnest of our inheritance.” Still, today in some real estate transactions, there is “earnest money” which is paid. That is money paid as a down payment by the buyer to the seller that is a guarantee that the balance will be paid upon closing of the sale.
It’s meaning in the Greek world and culture was similar. The “arrhabōn” was a down payment in some amount of money paid by the buyer to the seller which gave the buyer the legal right to own the item being sold. However, it was not the full amount and it was not put into the buyers possession until the day when the full amount was paid. This down payment guaranteed the buyer would receive the item at a agreed-upon date when the buyer paid the balance of the money owed.
What Paul was saying was that God giving the promised Holy Spirit with the tangible evidence of speaking in other tongues was our down-payment or guarantee of us receiving our full inheritance in Christ – the full experience of our complete redemption (including our glorified bodies) of “the purchase possession” – all regenerated believers.
Christ purchased us for His possession and gave the promised Holy Spirit with the physical evidence of speaking in other tongues as our tangible downpayment that we are His purchased possession which He will make full redemption of on the day appointed by the Father.
PRAISE THE LORD!!! I can hardly wait for that day!
God bless,
Wayne
Hi folk, Greetings.
Andrew is right! It IS the Bible pattern.
The day i spoke in tongues as i rose from baptismal water, was by far THE best, most important day of my life so far! June 6th 1965 5.30pm.
Now nothing gives me more pleasure than than to see others have the same joyous, life changing, mighty experience!
The next big day for me will be to meet my Lord in the air.
For me it is that simple.
I might add, when my parents (both over 60, senility had obviously overtaken them!) left a mainstream denomination for water baptism and “tongues” I was DEAD SET determined to rescue them from this “evil, dangerous sect”
They always used scripture to defend their experience . The only way i could refute them was to search scripture myself, as six months went by, their now exemplary life and my search of scripture, revealed nothing i could use against them. I came to the awful realization my dispute was not with them, but i was instead daring to point my proud, self righteous, accusing finger at God himself.
Pr Michael
THE DUDE: You said, “I will stand corrected if you can point to me any scriptural authority (the source of all we know about what God has told us) where it says that this should be the most “transforming experience of your life in Jesus.” From my studies, I never see any evidence of this “experience” in scripture.”
I believe that Scripture does give us evidence of this. Tell me, when was Peter converted? There was certainly “a conversion” for him to have given up his livelihood, houses, lands, etc. and to follow Jesus Christ.
Prior to his baptism in the Holy Spirit, Peter was a scared, cowardly person, who had trouble believing that Christ was risen from the dead or that the risen Christ could really love him.
What was Peter like after his Baptism in the Holy Spirit? He was full of boldness, faith, power, and feared no one but God!
Is this not Biblical proof – or at least an example – of the radical difference the Baptism in the Holy Spirit can make in a person’s life – compared to conversion?
Let us also take note of Christ’s last instruction to His disciples in Acts 1:8 – “But you shall receive POWER when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be witnesses to Me . . .” The Holy Spirit coming upon them is the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (see v.5). “POWER” here is the Greek word, “δύναμις dunamis,” a noun meaning, “power, might, ability, force.” Etimologically, it is the word from which we get our English word, “dynamite.”
The salvation experience gives us “new life” as we are born-again; the Baptism in the Holy Spirit gives one the power to live that life in the fulness Christ intends it to be lived.
As with Peter, we can be followers of Christ – even born again by the water of the Word and the Holy Spirit. But it is the Baptism in the Holy Spirit which empowers one to be the witness Christ designed for His children to be. Witnesses which, in the first century, were accused by the secular world of “turning the world upside down.”
There are many who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit whom, I believe, have hidden their light under a bushel (and perhaps it has gone out in some cases??). However, there are other believers, who following the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, have gone on to turn their corner of the world upside down (or right side up from our perspective).
There are believers who’ve not been Holy Spirit baptized who do exactly what the unregenerated Jehovah’s Witnesses can do. They can go door to door and witness, They can build churches – and fill them. They can build and run denominations. And, yes they are born-again.
But the Holy Spirit Baptism radically changes a person. They can now witness the power of the resurrected Christ in seeing the sick healed, the dead raised, supernatural miracles and supply, – all confirming the preaching/witnessing of the Word.
Where is the power in those who reject the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues? I have seen very little of it in all my 48 years as a Christian, nor in the dozens of denominations of which I’ve had interaction with the Holy Spirit Baptism is rejected as depicted in Acts..
However, I’ve seen the New Testament power of the Holy Spirit in action many times in those people and places where He is allowed to have His way freely and the Holy Spirit Baptism is believed and practiced.
God bless you, my brother – and all other readers as well.
Wayne
TheDude wrote: Wow! Did you really mean that? I hope not. I would think the most transforming experience of your life in Jesus is when you realized you were a sinner in need of a saviour and you repented and followed Jesus.
It is very easy to take a comment someone is making in general and pull it out of context to become an issue.
You cannot say everything in one post each time your trying to share on something in the Bible. I have found on the internet this seems to be the case.
Please read this and realize at the same time I cannot say everything in this one little section:
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Jesus is telling his followers who are believers that John baptized them with water but that they should WAIT at Jerusalem and they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Okay they obey Jesus and then what happens?
Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to SPEAK WITH OTHER TONGUES, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Jesus also said that those who believe that one sign that will follow them is that they will speak with other tongues.
The problem that I see is that when people who have hindrances in their lives become defensive because of their experience.
Yes salvation and being saved is fantastic and that is the realization that God is real and has forgiven you of your sins and that you also realize your going to live forever with Him.
But when you receive the Baptism of the Spirit with the evidence of tongues it is like all of Heaven has been poured out into your soul.
I think this is what some are saying here. It’s obvious their not trying to downgrade the salvation experience.
When I first became a Christian the joy was unspeakable and yes full of glory. But then when someone told me about the Baptism of the Spirit I wanted it but was a little afraid for a few seconds because I did not understand. Then when the brother laid hands on me and prayed it was like rivers of living waters flowing through me as I spoke in tongues.
I was not raised in a Christian home so everything involving Christianity at that time was so new.
Please take the time and at least consider what JESUS said, about this experience in His Word during your private prayer time.
Michael wrote: Now nothing gives me more pleasure than than to see others have the same joyous, life changing, mighty experience!
I agree; there are moments in our time here on the earth that we can experience this.
One is when we lead people to the Lord. Secondly when they receive the Baptism and speak in tongues.
Also, when the disciples came back to Jesus with great joy and had prayed for peoples healing and said, even the demons are subject to us.
Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
After considering this here, everything involving Jesus brings Joy.
Praise God in the Highest!!!
Great posts, in summary, some important points.
Those who speak out against division concerning ‘tongues’ (Watchful, The Dude), do so justifiably, discerning the pitfalls and traps.
Also, speaking of the value of encouragement, and Baptism in the Holy Spirit for both personal and public ministry, uphold the reality from experience and the Scriptures, such as:
Mario – Look back and see God’s faithfulness
Sheeja – Confess (and remember) God’s promises
Wayne – Boldness, faith, power and no fear of man (quoting Peter’s example)
Andrew – Power for ministry, including authority
If I may add this, not taking anything away from others, Smith Wigglesworth was reportedly said to have yelled, “CLEAN”, upon being baptised in the Holy Spirit.
I think some posts are worth re-reading and thinking upon, among others:
Joyce, 19/2, 15/2, Watchful, 18/12, Teshuva, Ps Wayne, 19/2 & 17/2 (E.g. “I have known a number of people who have never spoken in tongues but whom I believe to have been baptized in the Holy Spirit ………..”), Andrew 16/2 (especially concerning blockages), Mike Gaskin E.g. blockages), Sheeja John, 19/2 (for the encouragement, testimony and song) …
I thank you all for the wisdom, knowledge, experience, teaching and fellowship I have received from this site.
Andrew, thank you for hosting and forging ahead in the power of the Spirit, may the Lord richly bless you and your family, as you serve him in faithfullness, hope, love and power.
Blessings to all.
I have connected with some wonderful people here. This is my last post, for now, as I will revisit, but have much to accomplish, in Him. Grace and Peace.
Jordan
I know you embrace the KJV Only heresy which believes that the KJV is the ONLY and truly inspired Word of God. Part of that heresy is the belief that the KJV English is to interpret and “correct” the original Greek and Hebrew in which the Scriptures were originally written. However, I think it is a heresy which most involved in this site would reject.
Pastor Wayne
Even though I do not embrace just reading the KJV only I do not see how you can call this a heresy.
Doctrinal error yes, heresy though!
Heresay is when someone tampers with the Godhead and tries to make an issue with what God reveals Himself as in the scripture. As in the case of Oneness which comes to mind as one example.
If a group of people are promoting to read only the KJV and they have unscriptural means to prove it they are at least using only one version but are wrong in their understanding.
But when Bible distort the Godhead they are perverting what the Bible itself reveals.
My understanding here is that a heretic you are to reject after the first or second admonition. A true heretic can be 95% right about the Bible but still not make it into heaven because of the distortion of scripture they are presenting. Again oneness is the example that comes to mind, making Jesus to be the Father.
Even though this group is adamant to read only the KJV I cannot see this as some heresy.
Just wondering here :) I am not trying to strain at a gnat or anything. LOL
God bless you Jordan, I have enjoyed your voice on this board, and will miss hearing it – may the Lord go with you and before you wherever you go.
Claudia, thank you for sharing your precious dream of the dead child being made alive into that transparent glorified condition..it reminds me of the time I was given a little taste of freedom from the bondage of flesh and self, it was so wonderful, I was aware of nothing else, not even my own existence, but awareness was filled only with Jesus, and I so yearn to be in that state and just remain there – but how we look forward to that day when He completes the work which He began in us!
Jordan,
I hope this is for a rest and that as time permits you will again post, nevertheless I have gained a brother in whom I respect truly. Thank you for picking up the fragments of bread that have been shared on this forum and putting them in your basket to bring them forth again, otherwise I would have missed a couple of things.
May Father continue to take you deeper into His heart and higher into His thoughts.
Claudia,
I want to say thank you for your in depth post as it confirms that which I posted earlier of being baptized in the spirit, and speaking a new language, though I still spoke English, but was constrained of speaking all manner of ugliness.
You brought forth the overcoming of death.
To me or as I understand death, it is the carnal mind and the false prophet of the tongue itself. Before being born again, all our tongues are false prophets that speak things from the carnal mind.
Scripture says for us to let this mind be in us that was in Christ. So the anointed mind or the mind of the anointed one is what we are to seek.
I have seen in a vision the carnal mind and the tongue be an eclipse of the Son. Upon seeing this I could only say, death to death.
Yeshua’s commandment was eternal life according to Jn. 12:49-50.
To me, the dragon, is the dragon thought, that deals dishonestly and hates etc..that indeed says that I am separated from God and that He does not love me, because I have not been perfected yet and thus still mess up so I will die.
As a child, and I do not mean born again believer, but as a child, I remember saying, I am going to live forever. As being older now, i look back at those words and ask the question of where did they come from, and have used them as a pillar in the house that I feel God was building within me from the beginning, and thus they are my refuge from God.
Anyway, your post stirred me.
God Bless
“I have seen in a vision the carnal mind and the tongue be an eclipse of the Son. Upon seeing this I could only say, death to death.”
oh amen, Teshuva, that is *exactly* what it is, that image very much strikes a chord with me, and I do so agree with death to death!
IBELIEVE:
I am sorry that my use of the word “heresy” was so abhorrent to you. However, I think you may have a different meaning for the word than what I do.
One dictionary definition is:
heresy [hérrəssi]
(plural heresies)
n
1. unorthodox religious opinion: an opinion or belief that contradicts established religious teaching, especially one that is officially condemned by a religious authority
2. holding of unorthodox religious belief: the holding of, or adherence to, an opinion or belief that contradicts established religious teaching, especially one that is officially condemned by religious authorities
guilty of heresy
3. unorthodox opinion: an opinion or belief that does not coincide with established or traditional theory, especially in philosophy, science, or politics
His views on child development were regarded as heresy.
4. holding of unorthodox opinion: the holding of an unorthodox opinion that is in conflict with established or traditional theory, especially in philosophy, science, or politics
[12th century. Via French < Greek hairesis 'choice, group' < haireisthai 'choose']
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
You defined my concern as: "Doctrinal error yes, heresy though!"
After looking at your description of doctrinal error and the dictionary definition, I see no difference in what I was saying, KJV Onlyism is a heresy.
To expound further, I have spent approximately 500 hours studying the KJV Only error, much of it spurred on by that heresy being promoted in a church I pastored. The issue was in the process of splitting the congregation.
Up to that point, I had been a supporter of the primacy the KJV – or of a "soft" KJV Only position. This was primarily because I had read several books written by strong KJV Only individuals. As I delved into the issue I mostly looked at KJV Only information and was strengthened in my position.
However, one of my principles of accepting a position on an issue is that if I am to hold to a position, I try my best to find all the challenges to an issue and do my best to be able to answer all the legitimate counter arguments. Usually, only when I can successfully come up with legitimate answers to all the challenges, do I take a strong stand on that issue.
This I did with the KJV Only position. As I delved further into the issue, I found it fraught with historical problems, linguistic problems, legitimate educational issues, and outright fabrications and lies by those who were the kingpins of the KJV Only position.
In my study, I also encountered a very small branch of science (I believe only about 12 evangelical scholars at the time who had their PhD in it) called "Textual Criticism."
Please do not mistake textual criticism with higher criticism. Higher criticism is that branch of philosophy which looks at the Bible texts in an effort to determine such things as date the original writing, authorship, etc. Often "higher criticism" is dominated by LIBERAL scholars (many often who are not even born again). These are the ones who come up with such nonsense as "The Jesus Project" (an anti-Christian group which perverts Bible truth).
On the contrary, "Textual Criticism" of the Bible is that branch of science, mostly populated by evangelical believers who study ALL the available manuscripts and using standards of textual criticism they ultimately endeavour to determine what the original autographs actually were. Due to this branch of study by evangelicals who are experts in this area, they have now determined what the original autographs actually said with an extremely high degree of accuracy. I believe these scholars have determined that we now have what the original Biblical autographs (writings) said with about a 99.99 percent accuracy.
In an effort to defend their position and legitimate challenges to it, the most ardent of the KJV Only people claim that all the ancient manuscripts are worth nothing – only the KJV is the inspired word of God. As such, the KJV English (according to them) is to translate the Greek and Hebrew. In other words, what most evangelicals consider to be the stronger authority (i.e. the original autographs) as being what God actually established for His Word, the KJV Only people reject. They claim the only true Word of God is the KJV.
Now, they have a number of problems with taking this position. There are obvious errors in the KJV, such as Romans 8:16 calling the Holy Spirit "it" instead of "him," as we know the Holy Spirit is not a "thing" but a "personality." Then there are number of problems with numerous editions of the KJV to arrive at the edition we now have. Which one is the "correct" edition? As I said, their position is fraught with errors, inconsistency, fabrications, and nonsense.
Getting back to the original concern, KJV Onlyism doesn't just stop with what they believe about the authority of the Scriptures. Their position has led them to such extremes as believing that anyone who uses any other translation or version is a heretic. In other words, many KJV Only people believe that if you don't use the KJV version only, then you can't be saved, since your belief is placed in a "Satanic" version. They villify anyone who doesn't agree with their position and anyone who doesn't agree with them is going to hell.
These are some of the reasons which led me to my conclusion that they are heretics and such a belief is heretical. They have left the basic evangelical position that God's Word is authorative only in the original autographs – which basically now exists due to ardent efforts of the experts in textual criticism and God's provision of literally thousands of ancient manuscripts available for study.
I should add, that in ALL English translations, you can find the proclamation of ALL the doctrines which evangelicals hold to. Whereas, the KJV Only people claim that all versions other than the KJV eliminate major evangelical doctrines. Again, their primary reason for this is the ALL other translations are satanic in origin. Like I said, the reality is that the KJV Only people are the heretics.
I hope this helps clear up the matter and helps some readers better understand the issues at stake.
God bless,
Wayne
JORDAN SHEPHERD, thank you for a wonderful summation of the truth which has been presented in the posts above. It demonstrates, once again, that we are the Body of Christ and as we are led of the Holy Spirit to share one with another that we gain a fuller understanding of what the Spirit is saying to the church.
I want to thank you also for the many contributions you have made to numerous issues on this site. You truly are a blessing.
May God richly bless you as you follow where He leads,
Yours in Christ
Wayne
Jordan,
My prayer: ‘God strengthen you in your inner person, and bless you with His wisdom, and surround you by His grace,that you become His mighty vessel to accomplish His purpose, to the honor and glory of His name.
Thank you for all your support and encouragement.
In Christ,
Sheeja
—————————————————————————————-
Claudia,
You are right on, about tongues. Tongues not only indicate ‘other languages’ as we read in Acts but also a ‘pure language’ as in Zephania 3:9.
“For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language, that they all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one accord.”
In Christ,
Sheeja
I appreciate the people that post on this list because they are not burrying their thoughts. They are standing up and revealing them. If we don’t stand up as we are moved..in fear of others condeming our understandings..we will not allow all the ways that the Holy Spirit can guide us and increase our knowledge, or correct same. We will have been like the man who burried the talent that he was given, and therefore it did not increase. Thank you all for standing.
Our Beloved Lord sent the Holy Spirit to us because He knew that we would need a Helper, because He knew that mankind could not teach perfectly. We are to seek the Holy Spirit in all we do so that the truth may be revealed. To state that any translation of the Bible is the accurate and only one is to turn that “Bible” into an idol! The Holy Spirit can write the Word upon our heart….and the Holy Spirit can testify to the Truth…where ever it is written or spoken.
The Holy Spirit in a true Believer is quite capable of overcoming all of mankind’s mistakes, whether in ignorance made or with intent. We must not put our faith and trust in any man….including ourselves. I know that if I have an opinion that God considers in error, He will always lead me to correctness as I learn more of Him, as i wait upon Him.
God was quite clear about our not putting our trust in man. No man is perfect, no matter how much we may love him or admire him. I used to not understand that teaching in the Bible when younger…but clearly understand now that to look towards mankind is to weaken our walk. Many christians have put their faith in a man and wound up drinking poison coolaid because the man they were following was in error. Everything should be under Christ. Our eyes should only be on the Christ. He is our Doorway. He put within us each the Holy Spirit so we could see….if…we can set aside the traditions of man which men teach to men…which creep into religion when men have sought power and control because of their ego(sin). Even the scriptures at one time were being copied by scribes from Cain’s offspring which creeped into the Jewish system (I think it was back in the time before the last temple was destroyed.) Jesus commented on this also…called them sons of satan.
All these reasons and more are why He sent us the Holy Spirit….so we could all see with One eye….those who are in the Church that is headed by Yeshua, Jesus Christ, our LORD and Savior. Jesus knows those who seek Him because they have realized that He is perfection. Why would we want our imperfect will to be done, when His Will is one with the Father and Perfection? Christ pointed towards the Father, and the Holy Spirit points toward Christ, not man.
Man is part of the antichrist system. 6 is the sign of man, the 6th Seal is the essence of the glorification of man….and it followed the 5th seal which was all about martyrs for Christ, for truth..those willing to stand who did not seek the approval of man. The Golden age of man, the Renaissance (sp), gave satan much pleasure. The Holy Roman Empire gave satan much pleasure…the burnings of good people because they did not hold to the “tradition” accepted at that time by the authorities of the church. The killings within the crusades made satan laugh with pleasure…seeing how he once again twisted something that was supposed to be Good.
No church of man has the authority today. The “Rock” which Christ said He would build the Church on was not Peter. The “Rock” was the Holy Spirit which gave Peter the understanding that Christ was the Son of God. It is the Holy Spirit and Christ that the true Church is built on. It was not built on any of the Apostles, it was built on their understanding via the Holy Spirit that Christ was the True Son of God and the only Doorway back to restoration. The authority returns to earth when Christ returns. In the meantime it is the Holy Spirit that manifests authority upon the earth.
Christ knew what was coming, and He knew we needed the Holy Spirit or we would be blinded by false teachings according to man’s limited understandings. In my opinion 666 is the trinity of man, self will, and satan when he proclaims to be god. Man, just like satan the dragon, putting himself between us and God. We followed satan…that is why we are here. It is the satan (self willed/ego) taint within us that is being removed by Christ…during this restoration process the earth is in.
The Holy Spirit gives us direct contact with our LORD. If we look towards man for our solutions and our understandings, putting man before the teachings of the Holy Spirit,… (We should seek that union with the Holy Spirit with the heart of a little child seeking for his Parent….not with the heart of one seeking gain within his own life here on earth)…….we are in danger of supporting the antichrist system. Be careful. I do not want to stand in a way that makes man accept me, and validate me. No matter the cost, even if it is death or total disapproval caused by man….I want to stand for Christ alone, braced up by the Holy Spirit, The Gospel events and the words of God that have come down from His prophets and the teachings of His Son.
Soon after Christ departed, those men who were not filled with the Holy Spirit started trying to take control of religion for their own purposes. It gets very dark, but if we cling tight to Christ, via the Holy Spirit, and via our heart’s desire we will have the Light that we need to follow our Sheppard. In these latter times of darkness we need the Holy Spirit within our lanterns. Those who have filled their lanterns with the words of man will not have the Holy Spirit Oil to make their lanterns light their way when the false one proclaims his godhead, and spreads his darkness and supernatural events upon the world….and we need to go out in the dark to meet our True Messiah, Our Lamb, Our King of Kings when He is returning.
The “Power” of the Holy Spirit is all about being used to point humans towards Christ, and Christ points toward the Father. Some day we will all be united One within His Will.
In the mean time Christ was very clear about how we are to live our life. When He said “love your neighbor as yourself” He wanted us to not put ourselves first. It was not meant to indicate that we should have feelings of love for ourselves. How we feel about ourselves has nothing to do with our salvation. In fact the more we center on ourselves (whether it be a pity party or a patting oneself on the back party) we get distracted from our true purpose hear on earth…which is to LOVE GOD’S PEOPLE.
Do not worry over a lack of self worth…knowing that none of those surrounding you have any worth either…tho they may not be aware of their state. Never compare yourself with another human. Take your lack of worth and fill yourself with God’s word, and let Him teach and use you in your humble state. Wait upon Him. The more we are filled with the Holy Spirit….the more we see and realize that we are not worthy. That is the state of becoming “meek”. The below scriptures speak volumes about being “meek”.
1 Numbers 12:3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
2 Psalms 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
3 Psalms 25:9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
4 Psalms 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
5 Psalms 76:9 When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. Selah.
6 Psalms 147:6 The LORD lifteth up the meek: he casteth the wicked down to the ground.
7 Psalms 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
8 Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
9 Isaiah 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
10 Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
11 Amos 2:7 That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor, and turn aside the way of the meek: and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name:
12 Zephaniah 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’s anger.
13 Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
14 Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
15 Matthew 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
16 1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
Moving back to Christ’s speaking: “love your neighbor as yourself”, I am reminded that one of man’s strongest motivations is to preserve his own life. As much as we desire to preserve our own life, we should also desire to preserve the life our neighbor, our brethren. That is LOVE. We are to have the mind set that we are willing to die for them. Such are those that will inhabit the Kingdom of God…those who are willing to die for others….just as our Christ died for us while in flesh. There is a time coming soon where people will be persecuted far greater than the Holy Roman Empire persecuted the people who did not believe exactly the dogma’s of the church who headed up the Holy Roman Empire. This time coming (and all times in the past) was referred to by Jesus, and Jesus’s words below also illustrate what He meant when He said “love thy neighbor as thy self.”
Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him (satan/antichrist/beast) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Matthew 25: 31-34, 37-40, illustrates who enters the Kingdom.
(31)When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (32)And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (33)And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (34)Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(37)Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? (38)When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? (39)Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? (40)And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
There is a time coming when we must stand, setting fears for our life and well being aside, and love our neighbor. God has warned us and told us in the Bible what is coming. We should not be like the man who buried the “talent” that was given to him. That man preserved what he had been given, but did not share with his neighbor and increase the “talent”.
We are not to worry over our self worth….our esteem….as is taught in schools of man today. That is satan who encourages us to feel worthy….because if we are satisfied with ourselves we will not seek something beyond our selves. Our only worth is that which is in Christ and the portion of Christ that is within us. We build ourselves up by putting more Logs of Christ within our furnace to build up our fire!
May we all open our hearts to the Holy Spirit, that they may be refined with knowledge, understanding, love and joy towards our LORD and His soon return!
WATCHFUL…..I can tell that you also will never forget that experience that was given to you. I would that all could experience what we did. I used to wonder why I was given the experience, because i already believed. I would guess that God knew that perhaps I am weaker than other Believers because of my avid desire for knowledge (and knowledge of things not understood can be dangerous), so like a loving Father, He shared something with me to increase my strength so I would never be tempted by the knowlege that the false one will be laying upon us….much like in the Garden of Eden. I turned to Him as a child…during my innocence and need…not towards humans…He honors that. God often reaches out to children…as he did with TESHUVA. Perhaps He knew that we will face something in the future where we will need some additional strength to hold us up and share.
I believe that the false one will demonstrate great false glory and I fear that many church goers who find themselves here during the false ones time, 5th and 6th trumpets….might have their faith shaken, before the 7th trumpet blows…..because they were taught that they would not have tribulation…which is contrary to what Christ taught. We are admonished to endure til the end, to wait upon the Lord.
The 5th Seal of Martyrdom is still with us in this 6th Seal age of man. As the LAMB (who received the ownership of the Scroll because He sacrificed His life for it) opens each seal/spirit, that spirit once opened remains and mingles with the remaining seals (spirits that were opened) until the completion of the Work of restoring man here on earth within the 7th Seal Period. The false one is allowed to reign for a time during the 7th Seal period in order to attrack the tares and separate them from the True Believers that Christ will harvest into His House, after the separation is done. Towards the end of the 7th Seal, with the blowing of the 7th trumpet, our King of Kings on a White Horse…OMEGA, returns to tramp out the Wrath of God….to burn the tares that are among us now. I believe that the 7th Seal is the Spirit of Christ as Omega, King of Kings and Lord of Lords…wrapping up the Mystery. I believe we are spared the Bowl peirod, but not the trumpet period. Revelation and other places make it clear that there will be more martyrs before they are revenged.
There will be another period of the tares being separated from the fields at the end of the Mellinium. Just like a farmer…God knows what He is doing and the time to do it. What a shame that we did not all pursue the agricultural, small town life that I think God wanted us to grow in. He knew that we could learn so much about Him if we worked for our food. I think that is why God hates house upon house….and the gathering of humans into Babylonian large cities. They cannot sustain themselves….it is not natural, but of man.
My walk and attraction towards God is because of His GLORY and the LOVE which He radiates….plus I totally admire His KNOWLEGE, AWESOME JUSTICE, CORRECTNESS and WISDOM. I have always been attracted to Him because of NEED and DESIRE. I did not become a Christian because I wanted to escape a burning hell, or to gain blessings of abundance in this life. I did not become a Christian to avoid things, but to be united with Him in LOVE, and to support His WILL.
TESHUVA….could you share your vision of the carnal mind and the tongue being an eclipse of the Son?
I saw two hands coming out of heaven, holding the world, and there was extreme darkness, which is symbolic of the worldly or carnal mind, or at least that is the way that I understood it.
The world was speaking many different things that were very opposite of each other.
I had a sense of death.
The word I received with it was mans ways, tongue and thoughts are an eclipse of the Son. If I am not mistaken the word, was dealing also with instead of pointing people to the Lord, to have relationship that He increase they decrease, it was the other way around.
One of your posts above contained this below and reminded me of it.
“Lord God, Jesus Christ…..hurry and come before we, your children destroy ourselves with our own understandings!”
Claudia,
You mentioned about living in city verses living in the country.
I moved to the country about 4 years ago.
I had to clear the back portion of the property, as I wanted to use it for farm animals and farming.
Upon my removing misc brush and trees that were not
really of any value since they could not be used for fire place or food, I was able to find some of the most beautiful trees. I then was getting a picture of the garden in Gen. and things that are within us that need weeded out and an axe taken to the root of.
Pastor Wayne wrote: I hope this helps clear up the matter and helps some readers better understand the issues at stake.
Thanks for the information I can see now why you came to this conclusion.
Bruce Skelton said:
“Hi Tim
You tend to jump in like Peter did with Christ, before getting to know a person. I have stated my position on tongues on the forum”
__________
What I wrote above was done as a response to what has been said on this thread by several people, yourself included.
What you may have stated previously or elsewhere is not relevant to my involvement with this discussion.
Regarding the matter of tongues – I’ve seen many arguments here that basically try to convince us to ignore what scripture says because many people are offended or feel inadequate, having not yet experienced what scripture describes as an important and profitable part of Christian life.
Hi all. Is “believe only” an error?
“the devils also believe, and tremble….”
To believe in the salvation context means to” trust rely on obey.” are we ok with that?
in my life i have seen many who claim to be “born again” but have never “believed in that Bible sense” their knowledge of Jesus is a head one only. Yet we in the church patronize them and dumb down the Holy Ghost to appease their opposition
Is there is a vast difference between “good upright people” and those who are “born again, Spirit filled walking, talking with God” Are we ok with that?
My Parents were regular church goers, choir master, lay reader, organist, church committees, charity work etc. From the day i began to read i would have to read the Bible aloud to my parents “good people” – all long before their “Holy ghost baptism”. However on their own confession they were never, prior to that event, trusting relying obeying the Lord. If the Lords witnesses (much maligned folk from a farm near by) had not convinced them, from scripture, they had not received the Holy spirit they would still be in that dead cold Laodicean organisation, and i most likely, may never have heard the Gospel
John 3 “unless you are born again of water (water baptism) and the Spirit (spirit baptism) you can not see or enter the Kingdom of God…. ..Marvel not…. The wind (Spirit) blows (breathes) where He wills and you hear the sound (voice) of him….so is everyone that is born of the Spirit… Are you a master in Israel and you don’t know this…….We ( My Father I The Holy Spirit and the born again) tell you what we have seen and heard. and you receive not our witness.”
The “shall” in Mark sixteen is the imperative the “shall” Peter used at Pentecost is the imperative. not a “maybe. added extra. if you like.”
Andrew and Pr Wayne i perceive, go not quite as far as this, I wish to thank you Andrew for defending me last year when i gave a lengthy defence of this position from scripture last yearand got bagged.
Surely there is one Spirit! We do not can not receive part of him now and more or less later according to how we feel! or a concern not to offend!
I am not sorry to proclaim that i hang my hat on John 3. If that makes me a heretic i will wear that and continue to trust God.
Some of you go almost as far as this!
I do not accept that i was saved, I had no peace whatever, before i received the Holy Ghost baptism.
Please bear with me.
Eph 1 14 If the Holy Spirit is the sign, seal, deposit on our redemption, then surly until the seal deposit is made and received, the transaction is incomplete and certainly in legal terms not binding on either party?
Please note Paul’s question to these same Ephesian believers in acts 19 ” He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.”
21st cent KJv
he said unto them, “Have ye received the Holy Ghost, having believed?” And they said unto him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is any Holy Ghost.
NIRv
He asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?”
ASv
and he said unto them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed? And they said unto him, Nay, we did not so much as hear whether the Holy Spirit was given.
Good news version
Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?
Even the MSGv says
“Paul put his hands on their heads and the Holy Spirit entered them. From that moment on, they were praising God in tongues and talking about God’s actions. Altogether there were about twelve people there that day.
acts 8
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
NLTv
8 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given when the apostles laid their hands on people, he offered them money to buy this power.
Surly the understanding here is that “The Baptism” was in fact The receiving of The Spirit?
None of these versions above chosen at random (not an exhaustive search) infer that Spirit baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost/Spirit are distinctly separate events, is Scripture wrong in this? Yet convention wisdom/interpretation says it is!
Conventional wisdom is more often that not wrong according to God.
I claim Eph.1 follows the pattern of Peter at Pentecost
V13 Hear the Word (faith comes) Trust rely obey (repentance and water baptism) sealed (Holy Ghost baptism) also the exact pattern used by Elijah with Ahab and the prophets of Ball. “Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.” THE LORD HE IS GOD cried Israel! Elijah was instructed by God to prove Him before Ahab and Israel, it was not Elijah’s idea.
WE are modern day ” Elijahs” that are to preceed Jesus return, as His cousin preceeded His birth and ministry, we are like John, His brethren, born again of water and the Spirit .
If i use the KJv it is not because i am KJv only, I use other versions. I am aware, (i pray) of most of its errors, but because of my youth KJ English is like a second language.
Thank you for hearing me out I rejoice to hear the testimony of those who enjoy the baptism/receipt. God bless you all. I urge those that do not have have the ability to pray in tongues (in pure Spirit language God given) open you mind to Him, search the scriptures. God will not, can not, give you anything bad. I am troubled for those who teach it is not required, and for those who come to believe that as sound doctrine.
The ability to pray in tongues life changing, uplifting, encouraging to say the least. and i am sure that all of you who use that ability will say amen to that at least.
For those of you who persisted to the end of my “venting” without switching off branding me as ignorant. Thank you and God bless.
Pr Michael
Hi Wayne.
Quote.
“I used to be KJV Only until I did indepth study and the Holy Spirit caused the scales to fall from my eyes and cause me see the error of the KJV Only philosophy.”
I use to use other versions until I did an indepth study on bible versions and manuscript evidence of accuracy. I have come to the conclusion that what the Holy Spirit was trying to tell me all along, was absolutely correct. I have now put my trust in the KJV as my final authority on all matters. All new translations are translated from the Westcott & Hort text, which have some very serious errors, and in the versions that come from their text.
Both Westcott & hort were apostates.
Westcott and Hort, were necromancers and into witchcraft, Westcott did not accept Genesis chap 1-3 ; Bodily resurrection of Christ; Miracles and the literal coming again of Christ; Was partial to Romish ways ;
Hort did not accept the infallibilty of scripture. He also favored Darwin’s theory of evolution. Both men did not believe in eternal punishment or the vicarious atonement. ( “Data from, Life & Letters; 1896-1903)
The KJV says that you shouldn’t get angry without a cause. In the NIV it says that you shouldn’t get angry, they have left out cause. So the NIV makes Jesus a sinner. I just can’t understand why anyone would want to promote a bible that make my Lord and saviour out to be a sinner and there for can’t save me.
KJV
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
KJV
Mar 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
NIV
Matt 5: 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[a][b] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[c] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
NIV
Mar 3:5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored
Ancient Versions followed the reading of the Textus Receptus. These versions include: The Peshitta Version (AD 150), The Italic Bible (AD 157), The Waldensian (AD 120 & onwards), The Gallic Bible (Southern France) (AD177), The Gothic Bible (AD 330-350), The Old Syriac Bible (AD 400), The Armenian Bible (AD 400 There are 1244 copies of this version still in existence.), The Palestinian Syriac (AD 450), The French Bible of Oliveton (AD 1535), The Czech Bible (AD 1602), The Italian Bible of Diodati (AD 1606), The Greek Orthodox Bible (Used from Apostolic times to the present day by the Greek Orthodox Church). [Bible Versions, D.B. Loughran]
I don’t know of any one who thinks a person can’t be saved because he doesn’t hold to the KJV. But I do know of Pentecostals who believe, that a person is not born again because he or she doesn’t speak in tongues. Anyone who is truly saved will want to know the truth about the bible version he has.
In Christ,
Bruce.
There is one thing to consider. What version of the Bible were people reading that ushered in the Reformation, and major revivals from Luther on.
Which version of the Bible do most read that have gone off track with the Prosperity doctrines etc.
I think I’ll stick with the tried and true KJV, or Interlinear.
Michael,
I posted the passage that says that if we being evil give good gifts to our children, how much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to them that love Him.
Were you addressing me? If so I did not mean in increments, I meant how much more so does He want to give.
I think John 3:34 or somewhere in there says that He does not give the spirit in measure.
If I made it sound any other way then please forgive.
Question 1: it was not the KJV. The reformers like Luther did their own translations. They did not rely on an English translation that wasn’t written until a century or two later.
Question 2: When I was into WOF, most of the prosperity preachers used the KJV.
I advise people to stick with which ever version they are most likely to read and understand. The most ACCURATE bible version isn’t much use to a person if they cannot read or understand it.
As you get to know God you will start to recognise when something you are reading in a particular translation doesn’t seem quite right and you will want to check other translations for clarity.
Hi Michelle.
Quote.
“There is one thing to consider. What version of the Bible were people reading that ushered in the Reformation, and major revivals from Luther on.”
I AGREE ABSOLUTELY. It has stood the test of time four hundred years. I don’t worship the KJV translators, or anyone else for that matter, but I do worship the word of God Jesus Christ they are
inseparable.
In Christ,
Bruce.
You agree with what Bruce?
That an English bible translation that didn’t exist at the time was being read by the non-English speaking people who ushered in the reformation ?
On another thought, everybody.
Isn’t this topic supposed to be about “Encouragement”?
-Andrew
Hi.
The bible tells us we have the mind of Christ.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
He is the one who can open the eyes of a person’s understanding. If not, then no matter what bible version you have, it won’t help. The KJV came out of the reformation, and the Textus Receptus, or Received text, is the compilation of that which was used on the KJV.
In Christ,
Bruce.
P.S. Sorry Andrew. I thought this was encouraging some.
Teshuva
No, nothing to forgive.
Thanks
Pr Michael
BRUCE SKELTON: You said, “Anyone who is truly saved will want to know the truth about the bible version he has.”
Sadly, the so-called “truth” you have presented is nothing more than parroted lies, misrepresentation, and fabrications championed by the KJV Only kingpins, which you have chosen to believe.
The Textus Receptus was compiled by Erasmus and published in 1516. How could the “supposed” earlier “versions” have “followed the reading of the Textus Receptus” which was compiled centuries later?
In his article,”The Truth About the Waldensian Bible and the Old Latin Version,” by Doug Kutilek he writes some background on the instituter of the KJV Only heresy,Benjamin G. Wilkinson, a professor and college president for the cult, the Seventh-Day Adventists. Kutilek writes the following concerning the Textus Receptus:
“There is a monstrous anachronism here and throughout Wilkinson, which we will note in passing. The term “received text” is properly used of the printed Greek texts issued by Erasmus, Stephanus, Beza, the Elzevirs, et al. between 1516 and 1633; this precise form of text did not exist before Erasmus, and therefore could not have been the New Testament of the apostles and Waldensians, though it was of the Reformers. The correct term or terms for the text Wilkinson wrote about is Byzantine, Syrian (following Hort), traditional, or majority text, which text differs from the received text in over 1,800 places, many involving whole verses or clauses. It would be most helpful if authors would simply use correct terminology in discussing these matters. Unfortunately, Wilkinson and Fuller rarely did.”
This is just one example out of hundreds which reveal the fabrications, deceptions, and twisting of truth which marks the KJV Only proponents.
The same is true of vilification of Wescott and Hort which I will not take the large amount of space necessary to adequately demonstrate the KJV Only errors concerning these scholars.
I will address only one other issue which you raise – that of the so-called “omissions” in the newer translations compared to the KJV.
You use the example of part of Matt. 5:22 being omitted in the NIV – i.e. “without a cause.” Once again you parrot the vitriolic error of the mentors you rely upon. It is not an omission, but rather a correction of a scribe’s error in adding to the original.
Sadly, your summation that this makes Jesus a liar simply is not true. Ephesians 4:26 in the KJV and the NIV both say the same thing:
KJV – Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
NIV “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
So, Jesus could be angry and still not sin. Besides, Jesus is God and could not sin. All modern translations, as far as I am aware, uphold the deity of Christ. However, the KJV Only people claim that ALL modern translations do NOT uphold the deity of Christ. In essence, they have (in one sense) argued themselve to a point of ridiculousness.
I would urge you to really do much more indepth research into the heresy you’ve latched onto (assuming you are capable of doing such and desirous enough to know the truth to spend huge amounts of time to do so). If you need some help or direction with this, you have my email and can contact me for such.
Going back to your original quote above, if you really want to know the truth, you will do much more than merely read some books and articles by KJV Only proponents. Have you even studied the research available which shows the fallacy of the KJV Only heresy? Or have you only read KJV Only writings? This is hardly “an indepth study on bible versions and manuscript evidence of accuracy” as you claim.
Also, why do you bring in “know[ing] of Pentecostals who believe, that a person is not born again because he or she doesn’t speak in tongues.” In spite of the numerous writers in the above posts supporting speaking in other tongues, none have advocated this. Or is this an attempt to slur those believing in speaking in other tongues as described in the New Testament?
TO THE REST OF THE READERS: The KJV Only people consider all other translations to be Satanic. This alone should reveal their heresy even if you know nothing about KJV Onlyism.
While Bruce’s claim is that one can be saved even if he or she is not KJV Only, many KJV only people believe that people who reject their position are headed for hell.
Please understand that I am NOT anti-KJV Bible. Virtually all the scripture I have memorized is from the KJV. I find its beauty of language much easier to remember rather than the “plainness” of most modern versions. For most of my Bible reading I use the New King James Version. For serious study I primarily look to the original languages and refer to a host of translations (I own about 60 or so different translations).
God bless,
Wayne
Andrew Wrote: On another thought, everybody.
Isn’t this topic supposed to be about “Encouragement”?
-Andrew
I think some of us have had so little fellowship with real believers that it is refreshing to be able to see some others out there.
Maybe I should say “starving for fellowship”. :)
I do appreciate your site.
In Him,
Gary
Hi.
The following WHOLE verses have been removed in the NIV–whether in the text or footnotes…over 40 IN ALL!!!
Matthew 12:47 — removed in the footnotes
Matthew 17:21 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.”
Matthew 18:11 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.”
Matthew 21:44 — removed in the footnotes
Matthew 23:14 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.”
Mark 7:16 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.”
Mark 9:44 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 9:46 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 11:26 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
Mark 15:28 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.”
Mark 16:9-20 (all 12 verses) — There is a line separating the last 12 verses of Mark from the main text. Right under the line it says: [The two most reliable early manuscripts do not have Mark 16:9-20] (NIV, 1978 ed.) The Jehovah’s Witness “Bible” also places the last 12 verses of Mark as an appendix of sorts.
Luke 17:36 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
Luke 22:44 — removed in the footnotes
Luke 22:43 — removed in the footnotes
Luke 23:17 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“(For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)”
John 5:4 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.”
John 7:53-8:11 — removed in the footnotes
Acts 8:37 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. It’s deletion makes one think that people can be baptized and saved without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Sounds Catholic. What are you NIV readers missing?
“And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
Acts 15:34 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.”
Acts 24:7 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,”
Acts 28:29 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.”
Romans 16:24 — COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.”
I John 5:7 — Vitally important phrase COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. In the NIV it says,
“For there are three that testify:”
Compare the NIV reading with the following Jehovah’s Witness reading–
“For there are three witness bearers,”
What are you NIV readers missing? What does the real Bible say?
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
This is one of the GREATEST verses testifying of the trinity. That is why the Jehovah’s Witnesses leave it out. They do not believe in the trinity and they do not believe that Jesus is God. Why does the NIV leave it out…? Whole books have been written on the manuscript evidence that supports inclusion of this verse in the Bible. Reader, do you believe in the triunity of God? If so, then this deletion should offend you. People are wresting and perverting the scriptures to their own destruction.
I just want people to seek the truth.
Yours in Christ,
Bruce.
Bruce Skelton,
Thanks for sharing the discrepancies between KJV and NIV. Do I have the permission to copy and paste it alongwith my notes.
In Christ,
Sheeja
Claudia, you are right, I will never forget that wonderful sense of forgetting myself and being aware only of Jesus, as He is all in all. It was like visiting the innocence of childhood (only better) because very young children are generally not “self” conscious. I know what you mean about seeking knowledge, and now I would just rather dump what I think I know (which isn’t much anyway) into the ocean to gain more of Jesus instead, it’s a strange paradox anyhow in that the more I think I know the more I realize my ignorance, lol! That you turned to God rather than man when a child is an amazing blessing and I’m so glad for you that you did not step into that snare – maybe this accounts for that particular sweetness I hear in your voice. If you would pray for me to have my feet completely freed from the fowler’s snare, i would be grateful, it just now came to me that maybe this has to do with walking in the Spirit. But this was shown to me as my “original sin”, tempted just like it was depicted in the Garden and making an idol of mere man and self, when I was very very young. There is something in your speaking here that I find comforting, strengthening and encouraging all at once and I bless you for your generous flow of words! My e-mail is isrenderall@yahoo.com, if you or anyone, ever feel like connecting by e-mail, please feel free to contact me anytime.
Andrew, our dear host, I have wanted to say for a long time, but didn’t have the words – that there is something that i can’t put my finger on, i don’t know if it is the gift of hospitality, or the gift of pastoring, or what it is exactly, maybe others can discern it more clearly than me, but there is something I see that draws and causes sheep to want to gather here and just freely graze and freely fellowship together in this place. Please, please, don’t underestimate the value and preciousness of this gift and what the Father is doing and wants to do here. I have seen elsewhere in the past that it is easy to either overstep what God wants to do, but also under-stepping it, but if we just rest in Him and allow Him freedom to carry out His will even when we don’t always understand it, He can be trusted to get it just right, in fact He is the only one who can! :) I pray the Lord to bless you and to overshadow you, and to reveal these things to your awareness and understanding.
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Our dear brother Bruce, sadly has ignored the core issues of the KJV Only heresy and grasping for straws, has chosen to attempt to play upon your emotional attachment to the KJV and desire for an adherance to the true Word of God.
The science of Textual Criticism, based on more recent discoveries has confirmed that SOME of the passages Bruce lists above truly were not part of the original autographs, but were later additions by copyists/theologians.
While I have not had the opportunity to research current figures, I believer there have been between 2000 – 3000 manuscripts which have been discovered since the NIV was published. I do know that currently there is an average of about 40 previously undiscovered manuscripts discovered every year.
What I said in an earlier post is true – we now possess what the original autographs said with a 99,99% accuracy. NONE of the passages (or 0.01%) in doubt have ANY effect on any of the doctrines traditionally held by evangelicals.
Let me ask you this? Would you rather have a Bible which is translated on that which is essentially the origninal autographs – OR a Bible in which there are numerous errors and additions by copyists/theologians of a later date?
In any of you (who have the ability and resources to do so) will do indepth research on the topic from BOTH sides of the issue you will discover a number of truths.
Allow to summerize them for you:
1. There is ample, true EVIDENCE of the errors and additions in the KJV, the Textus Receptus, and other writings upon which the KJV was based. Evidence, which the KJV Only people refuse to acknowledge.
2. As written in my previous post, the whole issue started with Benjamin G. Wilkinson (1872-1968), a professor and college president with the Seventh Day Adventists (an organization which has traditionally been considered to be a cult). He published a book in 1930 entitled, “Our Authorized Bible Vindicated,” in which he put forth his many erroneous beliefs.
3. His erroneous teachings were brought into the evangelical realm by mainly two people – J. J. Ray who, in 1955 published a book entitled, “God Wrote Only One Bible”; and D. O. Fuller who,, in 1970 published the popular book, “Which Bible?” It should be noted that both men did much plagarism of Wilkinson’s book – WITHOUT ANY ACKNOWLEDGEMENT!! Anyone who copies the work of another without permission or acknowledgement is dishonest!!
Let me ask you this: HOW MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD BE PLACED UPON A TEACHING WHOSE ROOTS CONSIST OF ERROR, DECEPTION, AND LACK OF INTEGRITY?
4. Another primary proponet of the KJV Only heresy is Gail A. Riplinger, author ot “New Age Bible Versions” and other writings. Riplinger has lied about her educational history and qualifications amongst other issues. Again, deception, lies, and dishonesty.
5. The work which Bruce referred to as the Textus Receptus in a previous post is really what is believed (not proven) to be an early compilation of the Old and New Testaments. This compilation was supposedly done by a certain “Lucian.” This compilation has not been discovered or proven, but only referred to in later writers by other authors. If you do a Google search of “Lucian” you will find, in the first few pages, numerous sites which do nothing but parrot the errors which have been written by a KJV Only guru. Those in the KJV Only seem to be incapable of doing their own research but merely copy and parrot the writings of a few of the kingpins at the head of the KJV Only cult.
6. The KJV Only leaders, when confronted with truth and facts, have often resorted to vitriolic attacks and mudslinging. I have personally read transcripts of public debates and personal correspondence between leaders on both sides of the issue, where the worst of accusations and vilification has taken place.
Several of the more usual accusations are that ALL translations after the KJV are Satanic or demonic (what a horrible thing to say about God’s Word!); or to personally attack their opponent claiming they are really Satanists. Again, what a horrible thing to say who believes all the same doctrine you do – including a new birth experience – except for a stand on the KJV Only issue.
7. The strongest of KJV Only proponents REFUSE to accept (or even acknowledge) ANY proof put forth by evangelical experts (textual critics – all with PhD’s), archeolody, or any evidence of newer discovered manuscript evidence.
8. Their original errors have led to even worse error (as all genuine heresy does). They have progressed to the point where the most ardent leaders of the KJV Only believe the KJV to be the ONLY inspired Word of God – EVEN TO THE POINT OF REJECTING THE ORIGINAL GREEK, HEBREW, AND ARAMAIC!! They claim the originals must be interpreted or translated by the KJV!!! They claim the formal, old English words including all spelling and punctuation are the only, true, inspired words of God.
I trust most readers will recognize the ludicrousness of this position. Even if you don’t have much education, simple logic should show you how stupid this position is. If it were true, then all Christians after the first century never had the true word of God!!! Just think, those of you who have been blessed with a long heritage of Christian forebears, now have to question the salvation of your |Christian grandfather or great-grandfather because he read the RSV instead of the KJV – and according to the most ardent KJV Only people is now in hell instead heaven.
There are a number of other issues but the above are some of the main ones. If you wish to find true, scholarly articles which counter the deceptions of the KJV Only heresy I would direct you to the following web site: http://www.kjvonly.org/doug/index_doug.html
Please understand my purpose here is not to put down any person, including you, my brother, Bruce. Rather, my purpose is to help encourage my fellow believers here to be kept from an insidious heresy (one in which I was once trapped) which can consume a person to the point of eternal peril.
If any of you wish to confer with me on this issue privately please contact me at: pastor@gatm.ca. In this vein, I wish to apologize to you Bruce for having not yet responded to your email which you sent to me earlier. I have very busy and was attempting to compile a response. I will try to get to it today.
God bless you all,
Wayne
WATCHFUL, I have sensed the same thing. I believe that Andrew has confidence in the Holy Spirit…to bring all around to truth. None of us are perfect in our understandings….and we mean not to offend, but to state where we are in our journey. Each of our Holy Spirits within can descern the truths from the words of man….if not instantly, with time….as the words perk around inside our pots…that which is not true will be boiled off! ;-) I read what others write, and hear what they say….and I continue to seek….and put it all away in the pot. I keep my desire on Christ….and He has always worked things out. I am pressed more and more to complete the puzzle that I sought for as a child….I have read the words of the Bible, and the words that God gave me, some of them in pictures….and the patterns are coming together. Sometimes I put them together wrong….but know that it is not in concrete, and God will move the pieces to the correct place. When they all fit perfectly….that will be the time that He lifts us all up! In the meantime…..no matter how ungifted we may be…we need to share the one that we all have….the gift of LOVE.
Jesus did not have a Bible. His Apostles did not have a Bible. All creation proclaims God. As a student in science I believed that if ignorant man ever got the correct tools to measure everything, they would find God at the source of all. I belive that many scientists from what they have observed have concluded the same thing….except for those who worship their will.
The teachings of Jesus were passed by word of mouth for many years. The Gospel story is that Jesus, Son of God, came in the flesh, through the line of Adam and David, was OBEDIENT to His FATHER’S WILL to be the INNOCENT LAMB in order to pay our price of death, on the cross because He LOVED us, all the fallen Spirit Children of God….so that He could provide the only WAY for our Eternal Restoration via our accepting Him as our Lord, and being OBEDIENT to His Will, and REPENTENCE….so He could defeat the selfwilled Pretender-Evil One’s grip upon our fallen spirits. He taught before His death in the flesh. Upon the death of His flesh He went to the God’s Holding Place for 3 days and nights for more teaching and revealing. Tying up all loose ends of God’s fishing net. He resurrected and returned for 40 days and taught His inner circle. He than ascended up to the Father’s Realm, letting us know that He will give those who believe on Him the Holy Spirit to guide them, until He returns to establish His Kingdom of the last DAY (1,000 years of Perfect Teaching in man’s time). He gave the Latter Day people via His most beloved dicilple, John the vision of Revelation to enhance the Words of God spoken through the Old Testament prophets, so that we would be watchful, much as a watcher is set up to keep a village forewarned, so they can make last minute preparations that may help others, because death to His Believers, is Eternal Life. But there are others on this earth, including His holy people the Jews, who will only believe when they see the Latter Times descending upon them….as was predicted many thousands of years ago.
With the SPIRIT OF LOVE, and with the Gospel story (memorized), and the 10 Commandments (WHICH GOD WROTE), and the Lord’s Prayer, (memorized) both of which perfectly position our hearts and minds to where God wants them, we have the bare bones of all that we need to spread the Word…even if we lose our Bibles. We are not perfect yet, we trip, but we stand up with true repentence and walk forward with our best OBEDIENCE on our journey with Christ (inviting others to come along) until we are Restored….until His Work is done.
We must not argue over the Bibles…yes they are imperfect because they were touched by man…..we must not make them idols. The WORD of the FATHER was formed in Jesus Christ, our LIGHT and His teachings. Our Belief gives us the HOLY SPIRIT to light the WAY. All the rest is just a bonus. We must keep our eyes on Christ….not man. Only Christ is perfect….leave the non salvational details to God to provide as we journey on His WAY. Arguing over those details that are not salvational are why so many humans turn from the churches. Their secret hearts know that God is a God of Perfection….and religious man’s quibbling often ruins that message that is in the Hearts of man…..causing many to turn and seek God elsewhere.
Sheeja John
Hi John. It’s nice to have your encouragement. If you would like to discuss anything, then here is my email address: skeltonfamily@ubernet.co.nz (Anybody can contact if they like.)
There is no copyright on the above NIV deletions.
In Christ,
Bruce.
Beautiful message Claudia!!
I BELIEVE, I fear that any sweetness you hear in my writings would come from God….I have nothing within me other than Him that is of value…and I want to remain that way. I had no choice, in not bonding to humans, (unless My Father and I discussed where I would be placed on this earth for restoration…not sure that happens…but some believe it so). My poor immature mother was overwhelmed when I came along, having born another child one year before, and having to put up with a strong man who was filled with insecurities and temper. She confessed when I was grown up that she would slap me when I cried as a baby. She also came from a family that did not hug and cuddle, a rather cold family. That period is when humans bond with their kind…..so it didn’t happen for me…that sweetness of childhood, except when I was in the woods, alone with all God’s creation. The lack of bonding is a great freedom for me. One of the reasons I turned to the LORD and asked for knowledge and understanding when I was little was so I would not hate what I saw in my parents. Once my father was kicking a box of kittens, (I was about 5 or 6) and I jumped upon his back and tried to bite him. My only thought was for those poor kittens, and I thought for sure as I realized what i did that he would kill me. But….he respected that i stood up to him. So…in their own way they were not completely lost. I consider the lack of bonding a blessing…and I can’t help that God knew what He was doing….because if I had bonded, I would have looked to man for knowledge, and acceptance. God is so awesome, He gave me nature, animals, and the forests of Mt. Shasta to run in and learn of Him. He provided a dusty Bible I found in a drawer, He allowed me to read at an early age….and the first book I read was Revelations. My parents were good providers, taught me to work, taught me obedience….and God taught me love and respect. It was a good deal.
That paradox you speak of is common to all who truly seek knowledge beyond their self. Probably the first step to wisdom!
I wished I could say that I have always remained true to My Father….My first love….but when I left home to go to college….I was taken from my forest and splatted down within human community within a city. I did not receive religious training from a church structure while growing up…this is one of the advantages of church and church fellowship). I was like a fish out of water! The world tempted me than, and it was a bit confusing for a time, but God always has been faithful and tho I was not walking with Him, He still had me in His arms and kept me from being lost in the quagmire.
My guess is that you are in His arms also…and with your desire to be free from the fowler’s snare…..your heart’s prayer….to which I add mine….you will be completely freed. The advantage we have when we fall in love with God, is that we soon realize that things that are not of God, begin to repel us, they loose their appeal. I remember when i was an older middle age adult, that I realized I was too interested in silly TV serials, soups and such. It really bothered me….but I seemed to lack the physical discipline to avoid same for entertainment. I, in my heart, kept condemning my actions and asking God to make me not be interested in them. I was amazed one day, when I realized I was no longer interested. For many years now, I watch news, Biblical channels, history and educational channels, (helps you see how satan is using some of those channels to diminish God), and some competitive reality programs.). I think when our hearts desire is aligned with what we are praying for God can really step in and act. We have to give Him permission to brush aside our will. Another thought….if we are praying for something because of social pressure, and it is not really in or hearts….the channels are not open for the power to work as well.
We are not on this earth because we are perfect. The Jews constantly turned away from God….and yet…these end times approaching are all about bringing them back to perfection and repentance.
Zechariah, Chapter 12: (9)And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (10)And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
CLAUDIA: You said, “Jesus did not have a Bible. His Apostles did not have a Bible.”
I’m not sure how you determined this, but it is not the truth. Both Christ and the apostles used the Old Testament as their Scriptures or “Bible.” It was also in use by all Jews, including the Gentile converts to Judaism.
Almost every book of the Old Testament is in one way or another quoted by Christ and the apostles in what is recorded in the New Testament.
It is true that some of what is to be known about God can be seen and deduced from nature and the natural sciences (Romans 1:20).
It is obvious, however, that in the rest of your last post, you rely upon the Old and New Testaments for much of your knowledge about God and Christ, in particular. This is known as “special revelation” in theological terms compared to natural revelation.
However, the Scriptures make it abundantly clear that special revelation is the main revelation through the Old Testament and through Christ and the apostles (Hebrews 1:1, 2; Ephesians 2:20). And it is to this that the true born-again believer must flee for any solid knowledge which God has given about Himself, man, and His purposes for man.
It almost seems to me from your post (as well as others’ posts) that there exists a famine of systematic study of the Word of God amongst the people of God – even those of evangelical persuasion.
I would suggest that if any of you lacks this in your background that you obtain it somehow. If necessary, buy a good book on Systematic Theology. These are writings of those amongst our spiritual forebears who sifted through the Scriptures and assembled what the Bible said in various passages on the main, important subjects or doctrines. These would include everything the Bible said about God, the Trinity, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, man (or Scriptural anthropology), original and subsequent sin, atonement, redemption, life of a believer after salvation, the church, eschatology (future things), etc. Some of the more prominent ones are:
1) A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion, by J. Oliver Buswell
2) Systematic Theology, By: Charles Hodge sometimes referred to as Hodge’s Systematic Theology
3) A Compendium of Christian Theology by William Burt Pope, D.D.
4) Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem
5) Systematic Theology (1878) by Charles G. Finney – available free online at: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/finney/theology/
You also said, “The teachings of Jesus were passed by word of mouth for many years.”
Again, I’m not sure how you are able to come by such knowledge as there is no historical evidence for this misconception.
The truth is that ALL of the New Testament was written by the apostles and those who had personally interacted with Christ when He was on earth. (The Gospel of Mark may be a possible exception, although there is evidence that he also had personal contact with Christ).
This is another good reason why Believers should study to show themselves approved unto God using diligent study methods INCLUDING SITTING UNDER THE TEACHING OF MEN OF GOD WHO HAVE BEEN CALLED TO SUCH (even if it is only purchasing several of the Systematic Theologies above and using it well).
Lastly, you said, “We must not argue over the Bibles. . .”
I’m sorry that you mistook that to be the case – at least on my part.
In fact, what I was doing is what the Scriptures command me to in Jude 1:3 – “I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS.”
“Contend earnestly” is one word in the Greek – “ἐπαγωνίζομαι” or “epagōnizomai” which is a verb meaning, “fight, contend for, struggle.”
The KJV Only heresy is something I have had MUCH personal experience with and I have seen the destruction it brings to individuals and churches. I do not want to see that happen to any who read this site. That is why I have earnestly contended for the truth of that which is truly the Word of God.
God bless,
Wayne
TESHUA, I loved your conclusions, especially the “axe taken to the root”. Isn’t it amazing what we can learn from the patterns of God within the laws of nature? I learned from working in the food garden so many things about God’s character. I have to kill the pests some times, (I hate doing this, it makes me sad) in order to protect what I am trying to grow. They are not like the wasps in the house which I catch and let go outside. These poor pests have to be destroyed before they reproduce and eat all the plants…especially those potato bugs and squash beetles. I have to pull weeds (by my definition, not theirs) so the young plants receive their nourishment and light. With greater knowledge I learn that the weeds I pulled are edible weeds, probably more nourishing than the plant I am growing! Weeds that our ancestors used to gather and eat. Weeds that flourish without need for constant attention. Teaches one to not lean too heavy on their own understanding! I transplant some plants to a better position. We learn about order, and timing, nurturing, and providing. We learn how awesome God was to design the butternut squash that holds over without electricity until the next years beginning summer harvest. Same for the sweet potato and the regular potato to some degree. When I train and ride my horse and see how he choses to trust me and submit his will to mine, against his nature, I am so reminded of our journey with God. I have often thought that if I were a king, with several sons, the one I would pick to follow me as king would be the one who tended his garden the best.
As we tend our gardens, God is tending to us. Awesome God!
Wayne, thank you for the wisdom you have brought regarding the KJV only issue.
However I will have to disagree with your recomendation that people seek out a “systematic theology” to help with scriptural understanding.
I would suggest a personal reading of scripture, requesting the Holy Spirit to give understanding will be much more profitable and less likely to lead to the adoption and entrenchment of theological tradtion instead of God’s truth.
Yes, the writings and teachings of others can be a valuable tool AFTERwards – when we have already gained some personal familiarity with God’s word. Then we can weigh up what others have to say alongside what we have discovered for ourselves to receive correction or confirmation of our understanding.
Scripture is not about “systematic theology” it is a revelation of God and His relationship with mankind, SHOWING us how he relates with us and what His desire for realtionship with mankind is leading towards.
I apologize for the confusion I caused by not writing more carefully.
And I would wish that you would not bring meaning to my words that was not there. All of creation proclaims God…I know you are aware of those scriptures within the Bible. I never meant to imply that we can learn everything we need to know about God from nature…..nor did I say that. Had that been the case we would not have had to have any of the teachings that God walking with us in Eden gave, nor would we need to be visited by angels of God from time to time with teachings and messages from Him, nor would we have had to have the Prophets speak for God, nor would we have caused Christ to be crucified, and His visit here in which He taught much and revealed much about the previous teachings which were being perverted by man.
Jesus did not have the New Testament, (the testimonies of Christ) He was those TESTIMONIES. They were not fully written until many years after His death. The scriptures/scrolls of that time were maintained in the synagogues and were not common within the homes. They were too poor. The common people of Jesus’ time did not have the written word within their houses….they were too poor and simple. They gathered in the synagogues to learn, and brought that information back to their homes. In fact…the synagogues of that day were awesome places where people dropped in at all times to talk about the Word of God and scriptures. They were always open and attended to. I wish the churches of today were more like those synagogues. I have been told that they also stored food and were the community center of the towns, providing and attending to the needs of the people.
The Apostles did not carry around with them an Old Testament/Koran “bible” like we can now. There were no printing presses back in those times. That is an invention of the Age of Man. The scribes and priests maintained the hand written records within the synagogues. Noah’s offspring and those others did not have the written Word as a common thing to all.
In those days, knowledge, the testimonies of the history of the people and their interactions with God were passed down from mouth to mouth, from generation to generation, from father to son. They were taught to memorize the testimonies and teach them to their children. Abraham’s time did not have the Old Testament in it’s completion, because it was not complete nor was it put together into one “book”. I am sure that the Holy Spirit of God guided that knowledge being passed down. I am sure that the essentials that He wanted His people to know and learn were handed down as He wanted. Moses common people also relied on the synagogues and scribes to preserve and store the records.
As Holy and infallible as are the Words within the Bible….God would never rely on a book that can be destroyed. He expected us to memorize the stories/testimonies and teach them to our children in a form that they could pass on to others. We were to put them in our forehead and on our hands (the doing of that which was taught.)
The printing press (technology) has been both a blessing and a curse to mankind….as has the internet. The blessing was that the common man could now have the Word within their homes….and not rely on the priests…some of them serving the Dark One. Each man of today can read the Words and testimonies within the Bible with the discernment of the Holy Spirit as his gift for being a Believer.
Claudia,
I used to have horses, when I was a kid, and have owned other animals since that time.
It is most wonderful when you do not look for things and then to Him reveal them to you, when you were not expecting.
With the trees and brush thing– I was not looking at it from a scriptural point of view, until I realized I had made several different paths to get to one tree in particular, because of the difficulty with the thickness of the brush or limb debris that was in the way.
I told my husband in a jokingly way that you’d think we were trying to get to the tree of life– at that time it hit me of the axe to the root, and then other things fell into place as I sat an thought on these things.
We most certainly serve an awesome God!
Claudia
Quote.
“The Apostles did not carry around with them an Old Testament/Koran “bible”
Hi Claudia I know you meant Torah. Bless You for your in put.
Bruce.
I would agree with Onesimus(Tim). I would never point to other books written by man to tell us what the Bible says. That is putting man over the Holy Spirit, in front of the Holy Spirit, and basically saying that the Holy Spirit is not alone capable of leading us to discernment. I want to be a child, not a scholar. I want the Holy Spirit to teach me what I need to be taught in order to love my God more, and His people.
To look up what another man has decided the Word means is to totally affront the Holy Spirit. That would put us back under the rule of the Pope…and the Priests, telling us what to believe….putting themselves between us an Christ.
It will be the words of man which will decive us within the antichrist system, and within the little horn. Those who are looking towards the mind of man, instead of that Gift of the Holy Spirit which Christ our LORD gave us, run the risk of being deceived.
ONESIMUS (TIM): Thank you for bringing a balance to what I said. Although, my assumption was that one had studied the Scriptures for themself first.
I still will contend that there is wisdom in systematic study of the Scriptures. It definitely helps to reveal spiritual truth generally not seen in a chronological or book-by-book study.
Let us not fall into the egotistical trap of thinking that any one of us can have anything even close to a monopoly on the truth of God’s revelation in His Word – especially when we refuse to look at how the Holy Spirit has illuminated truth to spiritual giants who have gone before us.
With the list of systematic theologians I gave in my last post, I would have to say that there is probably not any one of them with whom I would agree 100%. However, a good grounding as a diligent student of the Word first will help one make sure that the baby is not thrown out with the bath water.
On the other hand, I have gained something from the writing|(s) of every man or woman of God whose writings I have read. This too is part of being part of the Body of Christ. It is not limited to any specific century or life span. The Body of Christ spans the whole of time from creation until the time of the New Heaven and New Earth.
I urge my brothers and sisters here not to ignore what others in Christ’s Body have to share with us – especially those whose writings have been precious from the time of their writing until the present time (such as John Bunyan’s, “The Pilgrim’s Progress”).
As far as systematic study goes, I believe we see the benefits of this in areas of every day life. For example, if you came to your doctor with symptoms which caused you concern which of the following two scenarios would you rather see:
- a doctor who learned all his information by self study and claimed right off the bat what the problem was
or
- a doctor who had completed a systematic study of medicine, anatomy, physiology, etc. and who sytematically went through your symptoms and asked the right questions and ordered further diagnostic testing to systematically eliminate all possibilities, except for what the real problem was?
The same can be said for any natural profession be it our mechanic, our plumber, etc.
Why should we not use wisdom and partake of that which has benefitted the Church for centuries? Even in the Old Testament there were SCHOOLS of the prophets. This does not refer to groups like a “school of fish,” but rather educational institutions where they studied the Word of God and that which God had called them to.
To sum up, I still believe the study of the Scriptures from a systematic perspective is very beneficial. However, do not put your faith in any person, but keep it rather upon Christ and His Word. Take the nuggets of gold which God has entrusted to others and throw away the worthless dirt which may hold the nuggets of gold.
God bless,
Wayne
Thank you, Bruce! That was the intent….I am terrible at labels and names.
I know I will not be “popular” w/ my writing. It seems that most here are writing about literary relationship w/ the bible. Not the Holy Spirit. Now, I have not read all the comments , but some of what I have read is fleshy. The desire is there, the passion is there, but the writing is of “what we have learned through text upon text of searching scriptures.
Now if the Holy Spirit has given you that “gift” or ability then that is great, but the common man/woman doesn’t have that ability nor the time, nor the desire to search and make a days /or / weeks or years project out of owning umpteen bibles to search out. There are those that come on this website that truly just have ONE BIBLE and if it is not “THE BIBLE” that you all are writing about, that might cause someone to fall. To fall from even opening up their one bible and ask the Holy Spirit to teach them , comfort them, help them. ——- now that will be sad, if it causes someone to think that they don’t have the “right one” and they have to go to the store and buy another one (when they might not have the money) nor are they really being led by the Lord to go and do it, but because man is saying which one is better than the other.
Now , mind you, many or shall I say some, might have had the desire of the Father’s heart to learn this stuff, but let’s say the “common person” and I am one, that does not know how to access all this stuff on the websites nor do I have the time to search the many bibles that are out there yet, I use mainly and mostly the New King James Version and I ask the Holy Spirit to help me, learn , to seek HIM, to honor HIM and HIS WORD. To place what it is that HE wants to place in me and teach me at this time.
No where does the Lord expect us to have umpteen different bibles and recite them all. Like I said, I might be stepping in a pile of dog do but what IF a person, has access to just one bible. One little bible , that one person or team member gave them to study, to learn, to seek the Lord, does that mean, that because they are not using all the other bibles , that they are wrong.
It seems that many are writing and trying to convience others that we know much more than the Holy Spirit and that HE can’t show us something , even if it is not the “right ” one that others might think.
I know I am not alone on this view. But I have had difficulty “learning ” the bible and understanding it, when I try to search things out, it makes it worse and then all of a sudden “when I stop TRYING” to make it happen and search it all out, the Holy Spirit drops something of HIM in me and it illuminates the page. After that happens, sometimes the Lord then leads me to an article that has the exact same content in it that HE was teaching me, that HIS WORD is saying. His word is living water and what I read today, might not be deep enough , 4 months from now and He will take me deeper.
This topic some how got derailed from encouragement to phylosophy of bibles, being saved, not saved, wrong bible, right bible , too many bibles, not enough bibles, heresy for reading one kind of bible vs. another kind of bible.
Somewhere we have left out the Holy SPirit teaching us, NO MATTER what bible we have. In today’s world, most bible have one to three bibles and most don’t even open the one that they favor except on Sundays. I wonder if the real problem is not the fact of which bible we have or don’t have, but if we even read it and ask FOR HIS WISDOM . If we do that, i am sure the Lord will lead , HOLY SPIRIT will GUIDE and teach and as we need to go deeper HIS WORDS will illuminate somehow, whether in text or by an article or by a person that has some knowledge , for that situation.
In closing, there are bibles called “bibles” that are not really the word of God, I think that would be more of a good teaching to expose those bibles like THE MESSAGE and some of these new versions that are coming out, but even in saying that, if that is the only bible these people have, I know that MY GOD, is BIG ENOUGH to allow a person to see HIS HEART and TEACHING. It might be a starting point for someone but it probably won’t be the ending point for that person, if they live long enough and search the Heart of Our Father and ALL HE IS.
Wayne I see most value is gained from studying book by book and especially according to chronology (oldest book to newest book). That helps us to see and understand God’s word in it full and proper context as He gave it.
The approach of “systematic theology” is one in which man takes different parts of scripture out from context, groups it together into assumed related topics, to gain knowledge of what we think God teaches about that topic.
For example, if we want to know how to exercise faith we look at all of the biblical references to faith.
That apporach to “theology” is at the heart of theological conflict as different groups highlight different parts of scripture according to their chosen interpretative method.
That is not how God shares his truth. He has not provided a manual of instruction or techniques that we sift through to learn how to live or believe. He has not provided a puzzle that needs to be pieced together by selecting parts from here and there to find meaning.
He has provided a clear, simple, unfolding revelation of His relationship with mankind in which He SHOWS us how it all works through real life examples.
I am really sorry if I have offended you Pastor Wayne, or misled you….or any one else.
Because of my background I have no faith in man, even doctors…many of them are killing us with their prescriptions. No sooner do they say this is the cure, than they say this cure kills you, we now know better, and here is the cure. Drugs, pharmacology….(probably the wrong word again ;-)…..profit. wealth. Yes…there are many good things done in medicine. But many of the medicines that man takes to prolong his life are actually causing other problems. Medicine is not an exact science.
Nor do I claim that anything I have concluded to date in my journey is “fact”…tho I have tried to write it as “opinion”. I am sharing what I believe that is not clearly stated in the Bible, and hoping that others might have a more solid or convincing conclusion….that will shed Light on the puzzles and on that which is coming on the horizon.
I am so encouraged that the LORD is exact in all ways! I put my Faith only on Him.
Continuing from this statement above:
He has provided a clear, simple, unfolding revelation of His relationship with mankind in which He SHOWS us how it all works through real life examples.
–
We therefore don’t need to be scholars or theologians to understand what God has revealed. We do not need any expertise to piece all the bits together correctly. We can read it as written for ourselves, with the author (the Holy Spirit) with us to help us out. And then through fellowship with other Spirit led believers we can seek confirmation/correction regarding the things we believe the Spirit taught us.
NICOLE: Thank you for your words of wisdom and truth. Yes! The Holy Spirit can speak through any version of the Bible – even the horrendously poo paraphrase, “The Message.”
Again, if my posts brought any kind of condemnation upon you from your perspective, I apologise for this. My purpose was not to put down those without education or the wherewithal to do such study. My primary purpose was to help provide protection for readers from the dangers inherent within the KJV Only heresy.
As I said, I know from personal experience (as well as extensive study) the terrible consequences this heresy usually brings with it. It is very real and very dangerous.
If it looked like I was discounting the work of the Holy Spirit, please forgive me. Such was not my intention.
I agree that the Holy Spirit can do His work regardless of which version is available to read or study.
So, thank you for having the courage to bring another balance to this issue. I’m sure many have been encouraged by your words.
Your brother in Christ,
Wayne
Claudia,
Medicine is not an exact science and that is why they call it practicing medicine.
I came from that field. One year something was approved and the next it was disproved.
Every medicine that man takes has a side effect and to me the side effects are worse than what the disease is sometimes.
Just the same I trust God for healing.
ONESIMUS (TIM): While I agree with much of what you say, brother, I cannot agree with your rejection of what the Holy Spirit has given to those who have gone before us.
To be honest, I’m a little bewildered at why you would seek current-day Believers, within your tiny little piece of the world, to either confirm or correct what you feel the Lord has shown you. Yet at the same time you reject a much wider teaching from the wider Body of Christ since the apostles. This is strange to me.
Perhaps with time the Lord will give you a better understanding of this. If not, then we can agree to disagree.
God bless you, my brother,
Wayne
I have a problem with much of Theology . Paul was a top notch theologian prior to his conversion, the theologians of the day (Paul’s then mates) crucified Jesus. Paul’s knowledge of scripture was of great advantage to him, however his understanding of it all changed.
It was a theological question that started the rot “Did God say?” be wary!
Our “christian” book shops are choked with every heinz variety of it, I cringe. Bibles however are tucked away in a corner you have to search for. Typical.
He the HOly Spirit shall lead you into all truth
… Iron sharpens iron……Psm 27:17 (one piece must be harder than the other. or you must have “grit” between, as the grit is fined down the edge becomes keener) That is one reason why i continue to read and post here. Thanks again Andrew.
Pr Wayne i would love you to email me the Kjv list you mention above I have my own, and would like to compare!
rciadl@adam.com.au
Pr Michael
Wayne,
Far too much common “wider teaching” is contrary to scripture. It has been passed from teacher to student who in turn becomes teacher. It has not been received through personal relationship with the Spirit and the Word.
I followed that path of seeking and receiving second hand teaching in the past – turning to the “anointed” expert instead of trusting God and His word for myself. I learned a very important lesson the hard way.
I am more than willing to accept confirmation/correction from any believer (past or present). As long as they have clearly relied on scripture and the Spirit, and are not merely parroting a theology they have picked up from others.
My “tiny little piece of the world” is not so tiny. The Lord uses a diverse collection of believers from many different places in that confirmation/correction process. Some I know personally, others I only know through their teaching – some I may only come across once. That might come thorugh meeting someone in person, or it may come through reading a book. I rarely seek them out but the Lord leads me to them at just the right time.
The process always starts with personal interaction with the Spirit and the word. The Lord will use what others share as a means of nudging me in the right direction regarding things He has ALREADY been revealing through that personal interaction.
Sometimes more than a nudge is needed and I am shown that what I had understood has been totally wrong. Other times I receive some amazing confirmations that I’m on the right track from the most unexpected sources.
Wayne It is clear that much of what the “Holy Spirit has given to those who have gone before us” was not actually given by the Holy Spirit – because He would not give contradictory revelation to different people.
His revelation is always consistent with scripture and is revealed in a consistent manner to those seeking the Spirit’s teaching.
ONESIMUS (TIM): Again, there is some of what you say I agree with and some I can’t.
Let me just ask you this? Do you think men like Charles G. Finney (one of the greatest revivalists known in the last few centruries) did not have a relationship with the Holy Spirit?
I’m going to assume that your answer to my somewhat rhetorical question would be “yes.” If so, why would you discourage the readers here from reading his systematic theology?
I acknowledge that probably most (if not all) the others I suggested may be unknown to most here. It was for this reason (and the fact that it is freely available online) that I included Finney’s writing in my previous post. I thought most here would be familiar with the fact of his standing within the field of revival.
However, it may be that your answer to my question above is, “No,” in which case I’m satisfied to agree to disagree.
In Christ,
Wayne
Wayne, read what I said about “systematic theologies” above.
Also I have nothing valuable to gain from reading Finney’s or any one elses “theology” that I could not gain from the the word with the Spirit teaching me, checked by the safety net of fellowship with spirit led believers. The Lord knows exactly what I need to learn and what I am capable of learning.
I prefer to go to the source rather than start with someone else’s interpretation of the source material.
I would also be happier if others would take that same approach instead of helping to perpetuate theological errors through relying too much on man’s teaching – no matter how respected or successful those men may have been.
Do we go to all of the champions of all of the theological systems to check out their views and decide which appeals most to us? Or do we trust the teacher Jesus promised and bypass the theological wrangling?
Bruce Skelton,
As and when God leads me, I will connect with you on the mail. Thanks for your email id. Thanks for the permission to copy NIV deletions.
In Christ,
Sheeja
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Pastor Wayne,
You are an elderly person and I respect your age. I believe that none of us can do, that which is the work of the Holy Spirit. We do not possess an ounce of strength or ability to bring about any change in ourselves or others. There is nothing that we can brag about. Our spirit, soul, body, every breath that we breathe, every drop of blood in our body and every ounce of strength that we possess, is the gift and mercy of God toward us. It only when we empty our ‘SELF’ and permit God to work in us and flow through us that we become worthy of something. It is not our age, nor the knowledge that we have attained that makes us mature in Christ, but a continuous, consistent walk of humilty with God that brings us to maturity. If we are too full of ourselves, God cannot work in us and through us. Each and every day we must empty ourselves before His throne of grace and mercy; then and then only will He be able to work in us and through us. Do not overlook the fact that the pharisees in Christ’s time on earth had all the knowledge they needed and yet they failed to recognize the Messiah; their only Salvation. It is with love and humility that I write this note to you. Hope you will consider it.
In Christ,
Sheeja.
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Claudia,
You are a blessing.
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To All,
Let us hold one another in prayer and love one another with a brotherly love, the way Christ loved us, and then the world will know that we are Christ Jesus’ disciples. God be magnified in us and through us.
In Christ,
Sheeja
Theology is the study of God and the things pertaining to God. Systematic theology is taking ALL which the Bible says regarding those things and examining what the WHOLE Word of God reveals about particular aspects of God – rather than merely examining such from a smaller portion of Scripture. This is not to negate the benefits from studying the Bible in the order in which it was written – or to study one book at a time. Both have their benefits.
Contrary to what one has written above, systematic theology does not rip scriptures out of context. Rather it puts it more completely into context by considering ALL which the Word says on a subject. Context is not just limited to the few verses around a verse, but the chapter in which it is, the book in which it is, the Testament in which it is, and the Bible as a whole.
It has been my experience and observation that most heresy results from someone NOT taking into consideration of ALL which Scripture says on a given subject.
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any priate interpretation.” 2 Peter 1:20
“. . . and [Christ] gave gifts to men . . . some TEACHERS, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ . . . that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine . . .” Ephesians 4:11 – 14.
I am of the opinion that one who deliberately rejects God’s provision of teachers who are clearly men of Christ’s appointing do so at their own spiritual peril – regardless of which century they belonged to.
I am not speaking about much of which is published in today’s era of apostacy and deception, but rather of that which has proven itself faithful to the Church through decades or centuries and that which the Protestant, evangelical Church has traditionally approved as solid teaching from teachers recognized as being sent from God (such as Charles G. Finney),
Were any of them infallible? No teacher is. Are their chances of being more accurate better than that which is of private interpretation? I would answer that one who rejects the teaching of years gone by is at more peril than one who takes them into consideration – no matter how much one may claim to rely upon the Holy Spirit.
Based on the above Scriptures (and others) I am of the opinion that one who sets himself up as the primary source for interpreting the Word (even if he believes he is being led by the Holy Spirit) in reality, puts himself in the place of being the primary authority in his life rather than the Word of God. In doing so, he is putting himself at needless spiritual peril (not to mention the sin of pride).
Scripture makes it clear that the Holy Spirit works not only within and to the individual believer, but also to and through Christ’s Body as a whole (including ALL generations). (1 Corinthians 12; Romans 12; et al).
I realize many readers of this site have encountered numerous apostate churches and some have given up on “the church” altogether. However, I urge each of you not to swing the pendulum to the other extreme where “it’s just Jesus and me.”
While it is true we shall each be judged individually, it is also true that we will be judged by what we have done with all the graces/gifts He made available to us.
While we live in an age of great spiritual deception and upset, there is a sense in which we are one of the most blessed generations to ever have lived. We have the benefit of all the God-given gifts which our forebears preserved to pass on to us – some at the cost of their own lives. We are much spiritually impoverished if we ignore the history and giftings of Christ’s Church down through the ages. I know it is in reference to the secular world, but it holds true to us – “he who ignores history is bound to repeat it (and its mistakes).”
Let each reader choose wisely.
God bless,
Wayne
SHEEJA JOHN: Thank you for your kind words of concern and advice.
Perhaps I need some of that.
I would, however, ask you to consider several things. Merely because the Pharissees possessed much knowledge and crucified Christ, does that mean much knowledge is wrong? Or was it that their much knowledge was not of God – but rather man-made. Judaism was a development which occurred after the Jews of the captivity returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple. They turned their focus from the study of the Scriptures to the study of commentators of the Scriptures. In other words, the commentaries became their authority for belief. Remember one of Christ’s accusations is that they had supplanted the Word of God with their own man-made doctrines, rules, and regulations.
(I’m not saying that I have much knowledge. If the truth be known I think my knowledge is rather limited. I often wish I had much more than I do).
Two of the greatest men in the Bible had the best educations the world could offer – Moses and the apostle Paul. I don’t believe it’s an accident that God groomed them partly through their education to bring us so much of the Word of God. (Moses gave us more of the OT than any other OT writer. Paul gave us more of the NT more than any other writer). I don’t think it is wise to reject the value of good education. It’s not for all of us. I am not as well educated as I would like to be, but have not felt led of God to further my formal education.
You said, “It [is] only when we empty our ‘SELF’ and permit God to work in us and flow through us that we become worthy of something.”
Where do you find this in Scripture?
Emptying oneself of self has more in common with the Eastern religions and their practice of meditation than it has with the follower of Christ and what the Bible reveals.
I believe what you will find in Scripture is that we are to daily die to our (natural) selves, take up our cross daily, and follow Christ. We are told to put off the old man (of the flesh) and put on the new man (or nature) of Christ we have been given. We are to walk in the Spirit, not the flesh; follow where He leads and guides.
I am worthy because the Father determined me to be of enough worth to give the best that He had to die in my place and to bring me to Himself and make me one with Him. My worth (in God’s eyes) is not based upon any works I do, but on Christ’s finished work and faith I have in it and His redemption of me.
The new man He has made me is not an “empty self” but a personality which blooms fully in Christ. We are “not to think of [ourselves] more hightly than [we] ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.” (Romans 12:3), We should recognize what He’s made of us and live within that measure of faith.
I agree that it is not one’s age (natural or years saved) or one’s knowledge which determines one’s spiritual maturity. I’ve known many who have been saved for 30, 40 and 50 years who were very spiritually immature. Rather it is growth in the Spirit, the Word, and partaking of the ministry of the gifts Christ gave to the Church (Eph. 4). It includes proficiency at putting off the old man and putting on the new man. Humility is a necessary ingredient – even though it is not listed as a fruit of the Spirit. But we either operate in pride or humility. Humility is dependence upon God. Pride is dependence upon ourselves. God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. I believe we all have a natural tendency to pride, but our faithful Father chastises us in His ways and times to bring us back to a place of humility and utter dependence upon Him.
God bless you, Sister (at least I assume you are female. If not, please forgive me, Brother. I have never encountered the name Sheeja outside of you).
Wayne
Pastor Wayne,
- By emptying the ‘Self’, I meant ‘dying to self’. If my words have conveyed otherwise, I’m sorry.
- Moses surely had knowledge, but he was very humble, more than all men on the face of the earth, the Scripture declares. (Ref. Numbers 12:3). But apostle Paul’s epistles testify differently.
And yes, I’m a female.
God bless you too.
In Christ,
Sheeja
Perhaps by the time we’re through we will all count our knowledge as dross in order to gain the Author of it, at which time we will no longer need knowledge because of being in possession of Him Who Knows All, and He us. Knowledge and scripture testify of Him, as Jesus said – it points the way to Him, it is very useful, profitable, that way, and therefore the more accurate translation the better, but it can never replace Him.
I see the church as a living growing organism, so to speak, and the revelation we needed yesterday may not be entirely the same revelation that we need for this day that we are living through. We know that some of the scripture is sealed up until the time of the end, so while we can look at the things God was doing in the past to encourage ourselves in the Lord and give glory to Him, it also might bear remembering that too much looking backwards might not be useful for what is going on today or tomorrow. There is something in that we are to eat the manna that is fresh for each day before it is no longer fresh and living.
For me I want the most accurate translation of the Bible that is possible, and even though God is still God even if we didn’t have the bible, it would be a tremendous loss if we neglected to preserve it all right down to the jots and tittles that Jesus said would still stand “until”…and though scholarship isn’t given to everyone, I’m very grateful for those parts of the Body who do biblical research etc and bring to our notice things concerning the scriptures which we might not have seen otherwise, which glorify God and help us in our journey.
Amen Claudia, I’m sure the sweetness has very much to do with Jesus, the fragrance of Christ, and maybe even it is for the purpose of drawing our attention. Oh my there are similarities in our histories and I also was a lone woods wanderer as a child, and so thankful to always have had some patch of woods around me when I was young. In later years I even re-visited those woods and received a wonderful healing and revelation there, so good and kind is our God! As to gardens, if I had my way I think I will always prefer to live in a Garden rather than a concrete jungle. I really do believe that a simple way of life is much more conducive to both spiritual and physical health. If only mankind had been able to be content with such things as he had, we would all still be living in a Garden! :)
I think Pauls knowledge was the thorn in the flesh.
Though many have said it was his eyes and there is scripture that says people would have given him their own eyes.
Paul was a Pharisee of pharisees– he KNEW stuff.
He even states that he would not known to covet except for the law and yet one can only covet what one sees.
he saw a Good and excellent law in the scriptures in his mind and yet there was one of love that was warring against him in his own soul.
Though he already was a pro in the law for the dead letter of it, he was also granted to see things from a higher and profound view.
Getting ones spiritual eyesight adjusted is a difficult thing to do when the natural has been schooled in a particular way.
He said when he went to do good evil was also present. What is evil except the heart of man that is evil beyond measure. I think Paul had a struggle of severing that which he knew to adopt that which he newly received.
The way I see scripture he went from stoning people with his words and knowledge of laws and the like to preaching a Man called Christ.
Scripture says for us to get an understanding and so it is not just to read and then speak a thing, but for us to ponder, or chew the cud of it and then bring forth an understanding of it.
The early believers expounded on The Way.
The law itself is just a dress or covering of that which is at its heart or core.
She is beautiful, with love that is likened to pure gold, and yet covered with a dress in modesty.
I am sorry, but this is what I see and therefore write, and if it goes against someones theology, please forgive and not throw rocks.
“The law itself is just a dress or covering of that which is at its heart or core.
She is beautiful, with love that is likened to pure gold, and yet covered with a dress in modesty.”
wow, that is beautifully said Teshuva…and something I will ponder on myself.
Hi.
Just a word on knowledge, from God’s perspective.
1Sa 2:3 Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
Human knowledge is very limited, and is mostly gained by observation and experience.
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
God’s people are being destroyed for lack of knowledge: because they have rejected knowledge, God will also reject them, that they shall be no priest to him : seeing they have forgotten the law of their God, He will also forget their children.
Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
In Christ,
Bruce.
Wayne said re the Pharisees:
They turned their focus from the study of the Scriptures to the study of commentators of the Scriptures.
_____
My comment:
Exactly – now apply that thought into the context of our discussion above.
Wayne said: “It has been my experience and observation that most heresy results from someone NOT taking into consideration of ALL which Scripture says on a given subject.”
—
It has been my experience and observation that most heresy results from people placing too much emphasis on individual subjects and not enough on the overall revelation of scripture which places those “subjects” into their intended context.
As one example from my experience: Copeland and other WOF preachers have done a very good job of finding out everything that scripture has to say on the subject of faith – but in doing so they have created a distorted faith message far different from anything that scripture shows us about faith in action.
In their focus on faith there is a clear avoidance of anything in scripture that contradicts their teaching. Those avoided things may not specifically address the subject of faith, but they round out and give context to what IS said about faith elsewhere in scripture.
Scripture as a whole shows faith in “action” as part of a full relationship and not something we can learn through gathering all of the biblical “facts” about faith together under one heading.
I suggest the same can be said of any other “topic” addressed in scripture.
Onesimus(Tim) seems to equate commentaries with systematic theology.
There is as much difference between gathering together all the scriptures which deal with a particular subject (as in Systematic Theology) and commentaries, as there is between people and trees.
The only thing the latter two have in common is that they both live and die. They really have very little in common.
The former two are similar to my analogy. The only thing they have in common is that they both contain Scripture. Whereas systematic theology pulls all Scripture together on a particular subject to see what THE BIBLE HAS TO SAY, commentaries looks at an INDIVIDUAL Scripture and the man says what HE THINKS that individual verse means from his perspective.
Please don’t get me wrong. I think there is a place for commentaries, but the Word of God and the Holy Spirit leading and guiding should be primary.
Once again, when it comes to Systematic Theology, I believe it is superior to commentaries, but DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE for the Word of God as it is and the work of the Holy Spirit within a person’s life.
However, let us not be deceived. Each one of us, who is a born-again believer possesses a theology. The big question is, “Does my PERSONAL theology line up with what the WHOLE Word of God reveals?”
My experience has been that VERY FEW believers will take the time to examine what God says to us in this manner. If you want a good example of this look up the word “God” or “spirit” in a good concordance (such as Strong’s). How many of you will take the time to look up each of those verses to see what it says about those subjects? (it will likely take you months – under good conditions).
A systematic theology takes all those references into consideration and presents it to the reader in a systematic manner.
Onesimus(Tim) if you don’t want to study God’s Word in this way, that is fine.
To all other readers, I urge you at least to consider reading a systematic theology to see what has aided the Church of Jesus Christ for centuries preceeding our time.
Personally, I believe it is extremely disrespectful to brothers and sisters we will spend eternity with – to condescendingly look at the giftings God gave them (in some cases giving the bulk of their lives on earth) and pridefully say, “I have no need of you.”
What kind of pride does one possess to think we don’t need the contribution to the greater body of Christ by some, simply because they lived in another generation and contributed in a way which WE don’t think is necessary. Who are we to determine that the toe has no use in the Body of Christ?
Again, please do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that EVERY PERSON must read every book written by all Christians of all ages. I don’t know of anyone who has done that. I haven’t done that and have no intention on taking on such a gargantuan project.
However, many have had no teaching from a pastor, teacher, etc. on systematic theology. Systematic theology provides a person with a spiritual quality and benefit, not gained by any other form of Bible Study.
Almost all pastors and teachers and so-called apostles, ignore teaching the Word of God in a systematic way because it takes a lot of work and requires diligence. Many would much rather jump on the easy bandwagon of the latest “Christian pop” teaching going around and get their paycheques from their itching-ear listeners.
In the light of this, dig into the Word more. Seek dependence upon the Holy Spirit. However, the Holy Spirit and the Word of God are not the only gifts Christ gave to us. Seek out pastors, teachers, apostles, evangelists, prophets who are TRULY ordained of the Lord. These are the gifts which Christ gave to the church in order to help them come to maturity and to avoid spiritual dangers and deception.
Some of those teachers are fellow-believers from centuries past who have laboured tirelessly for decades to bring to us such things as systematic theologies (and to a lesser degree, commentaries). They can help you to make sure that you are in the place where God wants you to be as His child as far as growth and maturity go.
Especially if you cannot adequately find the ministry gifts Christ gave to the Church, I urge you (with all that is within me) to read a good systematic theology to help you see God’s Word from that perspective. One is freely available by Charles G. Finney at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/finney/theology/
Some have spoken out against systematic theology (e.g. Paul PRIOR to his conversion; the Pharisees, etc,.). If you think Charles G. Finney was a Pharisee or a Judaizer, then ignore him. If you consider him a Brother in Christ, who was mightily used by God, than I encourage you to at least access the above site.
Let me remind you again, that EVERY reader of this site has a personal theology. The real issue is, how well does it line up with what the WHOLE Word says on a subject. It’s obvious many here have really warped theologies which go contrary to God’s Word. Some I have spoken out against here giving what the Bible does truly does say.
It is my opinion (not without real life examination and experience) that EVERY BELIEVER should sit under a teaching of systematic theology by a solid Christ-appointed teacher (regardless on when he lived),
When one does not know the difference between systematic theology and commentaries he probably could truly benefit from a good study of the former.
God bless, with love and prayers,
Wayne
Concerning the last post of Onesimus, it appears he does not know what systematic theology is.
A full systematic theology (such as those in the list I gave above) gives a balanced approach because it deals with all the main doctrines/subjects of the Bible in a balanced manner.
They show how each topic interacts with the other.
Once again, a study of systmatic theology does NOT substitute for one’s personal reading through a book or the Bible as it was written.
Rather it adds to one’s spiritual growth and development.
May you all grow in the grace (or graces) God has graciously provided for us all.
God bless,
Wayne
I am so, so encouraged by the posts of those on this list who praise the Holy Spirit’s capabilities as supreme!
Nicole, I so recognize the pattern you described concerning how the Holy Spirit teaches you…..it is soooo Him! That is the pattern that is also in my journey…..I recognize His the print of His Hand.
Seejah, I understand what you meant by emptying one’s self …it is all about setting our own egos aside, dying to our own will. I often pray….Lord, empty me of me and fill me with You. it is the key to humbleness, and meekness to shed one’s ego to become teachable.
Teshuva….your observations regarding Paul, I had not considered before….and I think you got it right…that struggle between law and love he may have had! Thank you for sharing, it is something that I will ponder too, as Watchful stated. I would think that obsession with the law would also cause a struggle with pride. I thank the Holy Spirit for your observations.
Watchful, I agree with you on having the most accurate translation possible…but I am too ignorant to determine which one that would be. Numerous “Amens” on being content in the Garden! We would have had been protected from satan’s flood of distractions had we remained obedient to God’s Will for us.
Bruce, thank you for the scriptures on knowlege. Like teenagers who worship rock stars….they seek as much knowledge as possible about the one they love. We love and worship our God…and we seek everything we can in knowing Him…we plaster His banners all over our walls. May we all stand as banners for God within our country so that He may not remove His hand of protection.
Onesimus(Tim), you are so right on….thank you so much for standing up for the Holy Spirit. I totally agree with your statement: “I would also be happier if others would take that same approach instead of helping to perpetuate theological errors through relying too much on man’s teaching – no matter how respected or successful those men may have been.”
Pastor Wayne, totally appreciate your comments regarding teachers called of God…..teachers who teach the scriptures and how they apply to our daily living, and your reference to the fruits of the spirit. You will be pleased to see that “humble”, (a state of humility); Definition: modest and unassuming in attitude and behavior; respectful, feeling or showing respect and deference towards other people; lowly, relatively low in rank and without pretensions……is right there in the middle of those fruits of the spirit! (gentleness, meekness, possibly also longsuffering and temperance.)
Meek=showing mildness or quietness of nature; showing submissiveness and lack of initiative or will; I love the “lack of will” within meekness! All about setting our will aside for God’s. The meek will inherit the earth! Awesome God!
Temperance may also be related to meekness in that Temperance is defined as: self-restraint in the face of temptation or desire. When our egos struggle within us… we should restrain it and put others first.
Galatians 5: 22-23=But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Because man has a tendency to look towards his “herd”, his community, towards other men, in order to measure his correctness, progress, acceptability, etc.,….. instead of within the Holy Spirit and the Words of God within scripture ……is exactly why satan can pervert God’s Teachings, and the taint of the antichrist can slip in. The taint of the antichrist is anything that points towards and glorifies man, mans’ organizations, man’s doctrines, the dragon, false religions, idols, etc., instead of the Singular Power, Glory and Truth and Capability of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
When I decide to study a concept of God…such as “Holiness” for example….I do not seek a book of man to get their ideas….I go directly to the Bible, and to an online Bible site on the web, where you can choose between several different versions of the Bible, (I like to compare the same scripture amongst the different versions to see if it is giving me the same meaning, just for fun) and you can enter the word “Holy”, in the word search section, and the computer program will give you every scripture within the Bible that contains that word. Than I read all of them. Than I enter the word in a different manner…such as “Holiness”, and repeat the process, and so on. Than I allow the Holy Spirit to guide me to the different sections of the Bible for understanding content surrounding the scripture which used the word I am studying. Than I hold these readings within my mind for a time and have thought conversations regarding them with the Holy Spirit…my questions, opinions, etc., seeking His feed back, and than before forming conclusions I allow time to pass. It is amazing when one is on a study how the Holy Spirit will bring in other sources from our everyday life and acquaintenances, and even events and observations from nature, as others have shared on this list. Than I remain never completely assured that I got it right….so that I can be moved to more correctness.
Then….when my walk with the Holy Spirit has developed into a “learning”, ……than….I may on occassion read a book of commenteries by man regarding scripture, because than I won’t be influenced by the human influence which can (but not always) often be woven throughout the book along with the knowledge that the Holy Spirit imparted to the man.
I firmly believe that if one does not incorporate the Holy Spirit in any reading of the scriptures….and approaches them like a scholar, or approaches them with the orthodoxy and doctrine of their particular church organization covenant that they will have laid a screen before their eyes and before their understanding….basically being already prejudiced about what the scripture means….because they will already have been “learned up” by the teachings within their particular church doctrines…..that may disagree with another denominations teachings.
I am sure my statement at the beginning about man looking towards other men for their security will be commented on because some might assume that I am suggesting isolation from others, or walking alone with Jesus.
So…to clarify…we are to fellowship with others, gather together with other Believers….not just on Sundays, or Sabbath days. When we associate with other Believers God can bless us and them to a greater extent. We should gather with others so God can make us aware of any needs they may have….that we can meet, and God can meet our needs through them. Just as you all on this list are meeting my needs for knowlege and understandings. Man should gather together with other men…but not for their affirmation of each others worth.
For none are worthy, none are deserving. Even the Jews who Christ will defend and establish in these times coming (but many will be destroyed in the middle east). He made it very clear speaking from the Old prophets that it was not because they were worthy….but because of His Name that He would preserve them. Christ did not die for us because we were worthy, but because He loved us, and wanted to make us into something of worth….which will happen when we are transformed. This concept is such an aid in remaining humble.
I respectfully disagree with any statement that suggests that we are given gifts because we are worthy……was Paul worthy????…..no. But Paul was viewed by God as someone who He could use, and He knew Paul would let himself be used. He foreknew the circumstances of Paul’s life and steadfastness….his usefulness. Paul was a killer of Christians….not worthy at all. Worth has nothing to do with the bestowing of gifts from God. The gift is what has the worth….and that worth is God’s.
I would love for someone to share a scripture that states that man has any worth of his own….or anything of his own that he can be proud of. I am not sure we can even be proud of our obedience. Help me out here.
Lord, help us keep our eyes on you!
In love,
Wayne, which systematic theologies on your list do you recommend most – considering you list some from a variety of contradictory theological traditions?
And you have recommended Finney’s “systematic theology” more than once – and yet even admirers of his evangelistic work recognise that his “theology” wasn’t always reliable that he was not a reputable “theologian”.
You said: “Let me remind you again, that EVERY reader of this site has a personal theology. The real issue is, how well does it line up with what the WHOLE Word says on a subject.”
The best way to see whether it lines up with the whole word of God is to go to the whole word of God and rely upon that, finding out what it says for ourselves, instead of trying to take shortcuts by reading what others tell us that scripture says.
The best way is to take the time to develop relationship with God and His word with the help of His Spirit rather than try to learn what others say about God and His word.
The best way is to allow the Spirit ot teach you according to your readiness and ability to learn rather than try to absorb what others say without having received the required foundational ground work that enables you to recognise whether they are teaching truth or not.
In the end are we desiring to learn the truth God wants to reveal to us or are we content with perpetuating the theological traditions of man passed down from teacher to student.
God says, let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Not let us make man after systematic theologies.
I am who God says I am and am waiting for the revealing of His image in me, not a systematic theology.
I may have more chaff than some of you, and need more threshing, but somewhere within me is a kernel of wheat.
Hi. To whom it may concern.
Systematic theology integrates biblical, historical and sometimes philosophical theology into its methodology. Its main goal is to draw a clear description of what the Bible teaches about a particular doctrine. Furthermore, systematic theology not only looks to biblically construct individual doctrines of the Christian faith, but remains aware of the cause-effect relationship of each doctrine. That is, on the one hand, if one doctrine is changed, effects will take place in other areas of doctrine. On the other hand, each doctrine has implications for other doctrines. For example, within the doctrine of Christ (i.e., Christology) the belief in Jesus’ resurrection means that we are not left in our sins (cf. 1 Cor 15:17). Jesus has conquered sin, and those who are in Christ also experience this victory (cf. Rom 6). Moreover, Christians have a future hope that they too will be resurrected and experience eternal life. These are just a few of many other examples of how each doctrine is interrelated to one another. In the end, systematic theology should naturally flow into practical theology where the conclusions drawn from Scripture are made applicable to the Church.
In Christ,
Bruce.
What I read was it was a system to organize the knowledge of God.
Since God is omniscient, is it possible to do this?
The world itself could not contain the books of all that He has done.
Perhaps I have missed something and should have left my answer with I am with Tim on this one.
Christianity is not a mere “theology” and cannot be truly contained in such a thing.
It is a “life” – and no ‘doctrine’ can truly come to grips with the totalness of what it means.
When the emphasis goes onto a “set of beliefs”, we lose sight of the fact that it is instead a “life to be lived”.
The very essence of evangelical deception in our day.
Believing all the “right things” yet not being an actual “disciple”.
Bless you!
Andrew
ONESIMUS(TIM): To answer your question re: why I included Finney’s Systematic Theology. There were 3 reasons, basically:
(1) Most readers would be more familiar with his name and contribution to the Church of Christ than most of the others;
(2) Some of the ones I listed are expensive to buy and many here on this site have shared or intimated their tight financial situations. The web site I gave offers no-cost access to this book.
(3) Some knowledge of systematic theology is better than none. As one summary of Basic Theology by Ryrie, Charles Caldwell (which would also be one I could recommend) wrote:
“There is nothing wrong with being an amateur theologian or a professional theologian. There is everything wrong, however, with being an ignorant or sloppy theologian. As Christians, our thoughts about God need to coincide with what He’s said about Himself in the Bible. The phrase “sound doctrine” that Paul used means healthy doctrine (e.g., 2 Timothy 4:3; Titus 1:9). Healthy doctrine or healthy theology is always expected to result in holy living”
– quote taken from this site: http://www.logos.com/product/2790/basic-theology
As to which one I would most recommend from those I did I have probably found Pope’s to be one of the better.
You end your post with a choice:
“In the end are we desiring to learn the truth God wants to reveal to us or are we content with perpetuating the theological traditions of man passed down from teacher to student.”
Why must these two options be mutually exclusive????
May I share the following Scriptures for your consideration? See what God thinks about the need for good doctrine (or theology) and for those whom HE HAS CALLED to pass on that doctrine from teacher to teacher to teacher, and so on:
“And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine . . .”
Acts 2:42 (KJV)
“. . . ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.” Romans 6:17 (KJV)
“How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, . . .” 1 Cor 14:26 (KJV)
“. . . and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.” 1 Tim 1:10-11 (KJV)
“If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.”
1 Tim 4:6 (KJV)
“Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.” 1 Tim 4:13 (KJV)
“Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” 1 Tim 4:16 (KJV)
“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.”
1 Tim 5:17 (KJV)
“. . . that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.”
1 Tim 6:1 (KJV)
“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, . . .”
1 Tim 6:3-4 (KJV)
“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, . . .”
1 Tim 6:3-4 (KJV)
“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” 2 Tim 4:2-4 (KJV)
See also Titus 1:9; 2:1, 7, 10; Hebrews 6:1, 2; 2 John 1,9,10.
And last, but not least we are commanded to pass these doctrines to faithful men who will pass them on to others and so on, and so on:
“And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” 2 Tim 2:2 (KJV)
God bless,
Wayne
ANDREW: I think the quote I give above regarding Ryrie’s Basic Theology shows the link between good theology and good living as a Christian – as do some of the Scriptures I’ve given above.
Again, it is not an either-or situation – it is BOTH are needed to be all God wants us to be.
May we be encouraged in this.
God bless,
Wayne
Pastor Wayne,
I think it is important to share, as we do here.
But why was the veil torn in twain?
So we could have access to the throne of grace, and there be one mediator between God and man, that person being Yeshua. Not so we could organize religion more with systems and methods and traditions.
If I am out of line here then I will stand corrected.
What has happened to give us this day our daily bread.
Again, I apologize if I am out of line, however I agree also with Andrew. When I came to the Lord, i got a life, a lifestyle, and He is ever perfecting it Himself.
Amen, amen Andrew – I do so agree with you, bless you, that sums it up very well for me!
N.B. – “watchful and Mum” – we are the same person, I’m sometimes back and forth on different borrowed computers and it comes up differently on each one and I just don’t remember to keep changing it.
Claudia, I’m not sure I would know which bible is the most accurate one either, but from hearing what the more learned have to say i believe I can get a general idea which translations I might put more stock in than others overall, also I found discernment is a help in this so there are some that I just avoid. I do the same as you and compare different translations sometimes, i agree that can be helpful as well.
Just to clarify what I mean by biblical scholarship – to me scholarship is not for interpreting the scriptures, or forming theologies, but it is very important for preserving them as intact as possible.
Some wisdom I received from the Lord to help me in my bewilderment, is that in our reliance on the Spirit of God WE ARE NOT TO PUT HIM TO THE TEST, he expects us to do our part as human beings, we are to do His will. On the subject of the bible, for example, it seems that He is not pleased when we doctor the scriptures – the “lying pen of the scribes” is condemned in the OT; in one of the epistles we hear that the Jews had been “entrusted with the very words of God”; and in Revelations we are warned “if anyone adds or takes away words from this book” cursing would result. If the trust to preserve the very words of God has been passed on to us then scholarship is necessary, not for the purpose of interpreting the scriptures, (I believe that job belongs to the Holy Spirit), but for the purpose of preserving their integrity. If no one had made that practical human effort which has been entrusted to us, then its very likely that there would no longer exist today even a reasonable facsimile of what we could call a bible, a book that we may take for granted here and now in the west, but which believers in closed countries consider so precious and so yearn for they risk death to obtain, and others risk death to get bibles to them.
Unless there is something wrong with what I heard, or my understanding of it, then someone has to do the practical work of a scribe, the Holy Spirit doesn’t intend to do what He has already given man to do as His agents on earth. We either obey or not, and there is the very real outworking of consequences with either.
Some might ask, does that mean the Father is not greater than man’s disobedience, not at all, but why cause ourselves and Him more problems than there already are, through our disobedience or negligence? I believe that righting wrongs is always possible with God, but it never comes easy or without a hefty price tag, that I have seen anyway.
I understand where Tim is coming from.
If the only study of scripture is looking up certain words or themes in the bible, and only taking the verses those words are found in to build a theology then a major part of the whole is missing. A lot of truth, and understanding the Lord would show a person otherwise will be sacrificed.
However, looking up certain themes, or words in a concordance, and understanding the context of each verse that word or theme is found in is a very powerful tool that the Holy Spirit uses to correct, edify, and teach.
Take for example, the word fear. If you are bound in fear of man or demons, looking up each verse that word fear is found will show that we are not to fear man or demons, only the Lord. If each chapter, and context of each verse the word fear is found in is prayed over and read, then the Holy Spirit will show the truth of what to fear and what not to. Those verses then become the promises that the Lord quickens to the heart when fear comes upon a person.
Word studies can be a start for allowing the law to convert the soul. Without the law we would not know what sin is. Without knowing what sin is, we would not know a Savior is needed. Without knowing a Savior is needed, we would not be convicted of the sin that separates us from God, and the need for repentance.
Word studies can strike at the heart of sin. If they are done in prayer with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We are to apply the word, not just gather it for more and more knowledge to sit on a shelf.
I’ve been reading all that has been posting….getting everyone’s viewpoints and what they believe…most of you seem super spiritual. My question about all this is ….how many of you that can talk the talk…really walk the walk and live out everything your conveying here? Are those of you in a church body teaching all the knowledge you have stored up?
Are you living out the very words you speak with other believers?
Too many times I see people in forums like this who can run circles around me in the “spiritual knowledge” but have absolutely NO contact with any other believers other than the internet…which to me…isn’t what Jesus meant by making disciples. My hope is that those of you who are full of spiritual knowledge are putting it into practice with others with skin on…..showing faith with works kinda thing…
The internet has been a major tool the Lord has used to further my own discipleship. The key is in what we choose to surround ourselves with.
Amen to your post, Meridith. Who ever we meet in our life, we should speak as we speak on this list…even if we raise eyebrows. ;-) We should not be concerned for our popularity. We should praise God where ever we are when we see Him at work, or the products of His Work.
I cannot join any one particular church and sign a covenant of man…..and unfortunately, most churches require that before they want you to teach in their church.
When I consider the knowledge that we have in regards to understanding the nature of our God, our Master, and how limited that knowledge is….I am reminded of my dogs. None of them truly understand my nature or who I am, but they want to be with me, that is their fondest desire. That is also what God will honor in us, not our understandings, but our desire to be with Him.
With all respect, I want to say that I will not shut the doors on any gift that God wants to send my way….but I will not seek any gifts from my Father. They are His to give at His Will….not at mine, or because I think I need them. He knows what I need….I want to always wait on Him, and His time. I as a parent, I do not want my children begging me for gifts. They may tell me their needs for food, love, comfort, security, knowledge (if they are ready for it) and I will give them abundantly. My gifts beyond their immediate “daily bread” I want to be a surprise, and unexpected surprise…..not a surprise that they were eagerly seeking as proof that I love them, or that they are worthy. God equips His connected children with what they will need to share His Will. When we are not content with what He has given us, we run the risk of other agencies answering our pleadings. I believe very much something similar happened in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were not content with God walking with them….they went looking for more. I have said before that I believe God wants us to come to Him because we are attracted to Him, not because we want to gain from Him….or establish our worth. I have said before….we have no worth now…..only that which is His reflected in us. When He surprised me with my Dream, it was so unexpected….and because of that, and because it so reflected Christ’s Task, and so was part of the Pattern of God within the Bible….I can be assured that it was genuine.
I have studied psychology in college, and I am aware of what the human mind can do when they seek after things….when their esteem is based on those things that they seek. Satan can hear our words, but he cannot hear the thoughts of our mind. If I am so desperate to prove to my church goers, or my social network that I too am equal to them (a very unfortunate trait of those who have bonded to humans foremost, instead of God foremost, who seek still seek human approval) you can believe that there will be words spoken out loud about the “need” for the gift of angelic tongues.
These various gifts do exist….they are real. But it is wrong of man (as some do) to designate that to be popular and included we must wear a certain brand of sneakers. How many of you have kids, or know others who have kids that nag for that special “brand” so they will be accepted by their peers. Two things wrong with this. No one should seek to be accepted by their peers. And no one should seek acceptance by “outward” signs. That is the taint of man…..satan…..not God. God looks at the inner heart, not the outward signs. That is the taint of anti-meekness, it is the taint of “look at me”. If the gift comes spontaneously….and is from God….awesome God…than praise Him and thank you, LORD.
We must always be careful of what we “seek”…..whether it be of God’s Will or mans. God supplies our daily bread, and I trust Him to supply my bread/needs tomorrow. Other than that…..if it is not in the perfectly ordered and construct of the Lord’s Prayer….I don’t seek it. According to that prayer….that Jesus gave us when asked about what we should pray….these are the things we should pray for, and put on our foreheads and hands.
Awareness that Our God is our Spiritual Father.
That He and His Will are HOLY.
We MUST pray foremost for His KINGDOM to come to Earth. (no other Kingdom but His,…not ours….not the evil one’s.)
We MUST pray for His WILL to be done here on Earth. (not ours, not the evil one’s.)
Now, after the above two things, we ask for our NEEDS, our Daily Bread.(A day at a time, because we need to realize that all things are His and we are dependent on Him. Our Bread is Christ…that is all we need, even if we starve. Within the “Bread” comes healing and growth. At the time of the Second Death….anyone who does not have Christ within, will be )
Than….we ask to be forgiven our trespasses against Him (putting our ego and will first) as we forgive those who pushed their ego and will against us.
Than we ask that He lead us away from tempting Him.
Than we ask that He deliver us from the Evil One.
Than we acknowledge to Him that His is the KINGDOM, that all GLORY, and POWER, is His, eternally and forever.
This perfect prayer is how we are to live and be a witness in our living, and so totally also about what is coming in the End Times when we will need to be delivered from the Evil,…the Evil that will consume the souls of those still living on earth who do not have the eyes of the Holy Spirit within. That evil will seem like good, will be solving man’s problems, ending horrible wars, and by peace slay many….because during that peace the Jews may well rebuild their temple and start animal sacrifices, using animal blood to cover their sins….instead of once and for all recognizing the Son of God who shed His blood for those He loved. Satan will be so happy at this event if it occurs. These particular Jews will have done an abomination in conjunction with possibly the evil one pretending to be their long awaited for messiah. By this peace….that allows them to rebuild their temple…..death and destruction will usher in as the 7th trumpet blows….God having waited as long as He could to see if His holy people would turn to Him….and the Bowl of Wrath Period will commence, after the Saints are changed….probably at the same time the Two Witnesses (who were warning the Jews to not be deceived…to turn to Christ) are restored from laying dead in the streets, and they rise up, once more in their spiritual bodies.
In the turmoil coming, God will have shaken man up as never before, and there will be many that will be seeking a solid foundation in the flood from satan, and we Christians, we Believers will need to be prepared to help them find that Rock. The churches will have fallen away possibly in these times coming…but not in the way that orthodoxy expects. We each must stand ready for what ever God wishes to do through us. We must pray that we are equipped, and given the heart and knowledge to do it. Rendering unto God what is His.
Well, I will say that my greatest comfort, the healing I have experienced in my walk with others and the “like mindedness” that I have found in my church has been life to me. That is what God had intended…we are the body of Christ…together..we work together. God comforts us through others..brings healing by bearing one anothers burdens, freedom with the confession of sin and the encouragement of my “brother’s and sister’s” in the Lord and I could go on and on about the life I have found or that God has given me in the body of believers He has placed me. I wouldn’t trade it for anything.
You can have all the spiritual knowledge that could move mountains…but if one is not in a group of believers (most call church) loving each other and learning to love and have grace for each other..where love can abound between those who have skin on…then it is nothing. Nothing. And worth nothing.
Teshuva….thank you so much for sharing your vision! Very symbolic and communicative vision of this 6th Seal age we are in. I see in pictures, and don’t understand things until I can visualize them. That is why I am so happy Christ used parables to teach.
Wow…yes, God’s vision through you, TESHUVA, was very much about our times. Alpha God formed this world and owns all that is in it but He has for a short time turned man loose upon the jewel He created as He restores us, and the world….so that we would not cause eternal harm to ourselves if we remained in The Father’s realm with our fallen taint. Only that which is Holy can be in his realm without dying. He did not want His children to die. God’s plans are perfect and He already had Christ on the Cross before He even formed this world. That is why the LAMB could walk forward in Revelations where John was (another eternal timeless place…all that ever was and is, and is to be was there) and claim the scroll which was about restoring God’s fallen children. (In God’s time zone that is possible because He has no restrictions….just like I believe all in the past, present, and future, with hearts that would die to protect others, who had not heard the gospel or understood it, and who died the first death, were also there in the holding place where Christ descended and revealed Himself for 3 days and nights. God’s realm does not have time restrictions….it is eternal. Man has done a terrible job of teaching the Word of Christ. The wars amongst the churches and denominations over non salvational doctrines have turned many with good hearts away. I don’t believe that God will dispense the final test to His children until they are perfectly taught. That perfect teaching occurs in the Millennium when Christ is back. And, those who did hear and understand the gospel here will be the Saints there (the crystal clear waters coming from the east gate) that are helping to heal and teach those who walk into the Millennium and those who are born into the Millennium. With Holy Christ back on earth the flesh lifespan may very well be as was our first ancestors….very long…..long enough in order not to die before the dragon is loosened once more to test those perfectly taught (One Way) in the Millennium )
The world was dark and without form (chaos) when Eternal Father said let their be Light. I believe that Light was Christ….complete, already sacrificed as the LAMB, and now appearing as the Alpha, First Seal riding on the White Horse…always a sign of purity. ( I have never believed the orthodox church teaching on this first seal, that it is the antichrist….that saddens me). Much “man” teaching/interpretation was passed down to the reformers who drew away from the Roman church. The scroll in Revelations I believe is the scroll of the Plan for Earth Redemption and Restoration of God’s fallen spirit children. The first and last seals represent (my opinion) Alpha (the beginning) and Omega (the ending)…both riding on white pure horses. God has never used white for anything other than purity.) I have never found the clues in the Bible that would identify the first Seal, the rider on the pure white horse, with a crown and a bow, coming to conquer (evil) as the antichrist. If you have them and they tie in as clear as the Revelation explanations of the Alpha and Omega….please let me know.
Christ came forth as the Light to separate out the Dark which had overcome our spirits, to conquer the Dark. (The Father knew each of us before we were placed into the clay bodies prepared for us here on earth.). He only had a bow because His body was the Arrow that via the cross (cross bow?) conquered and owned the death of the dragon. The Alpha seal was about new life and creation, restoration, and not yet to be about Might and Power as man understands might and power. He came to set up our restoration with all that would be needed for us to grow in our minds and souls to realize that our egos and wills are not the center of the universe. He walked with us in the Garden of Eden, He advised us to stay away from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (satan), (but allowed satan to be there so that we would have a choice, and as a test of our free will obedience to His Word and Will, not ours. We brought the curse upon the world by our disobedience to God’s warning as He tried to restore us in Eden through Adam and Eve. We became mortal, the Tree of Life was taken away. Now it would become harder for us to be restored, just like a disobedient child who defies the loving teaching of their parents and follows their own will. Our fault.
The Second Seal was removed at the time of our disobedience and the Red Horse Rider Spirit of the dragon, Apostasy and Murder, Betrayal was allowed to spread with power upon the world. We lost Eden and gave satan permission to interfere on earth by our disobedience. We cursed the entire earth with death when we disobeyed in Eden and sought after the knowledge that would make us like God. Do not blame God for any of the wrongs here on earth….they were all caused by us! We followed our will, not God’s. We than had to slay the life of innocent animals and eat their flesh to stay alive and rip their skins off to stay warm. We brought sorrow to the world and murder came to Abel via Cain (satan’s offspring) slaying Abel. (I believe they were twins….as the original language I was told states that Eve continued on in labor to produce the other child. There are many significant twins in the Bible….there is meaning there that I have not quite figured out yet.
The 2nd Red Horse Spirit was quickly followed by the 3rd Black Horse Rider, as we were cast out of perfect Eden …and commerce began as we toiled in the earth to survive…..The Black Horse and Rider seal, the spirit of commerce,….along with commerce came dependence on the whims of nature and famine and disease also began, economic trading for gain, usury, and profit to glorify the ego of man. God hates usury. Our entire stock market world economic system is all about usury….I really feel it is a strong part of the Babylon Whore that rides the red dragon beast.
Near the same time comes the 4th Pale Horse Rider Spirit…the false worship, the spirit of the antichrist, the spirit that brings death and hell by pointing away from the One True God and Christ. The one who encourages the glory and ego of man, and unites man for evil in the latter times. His spirit mixes with the others on this earth, all of which attract the tares and separate them unto the Latter Times.
The 5th Seal and spirit of Martyrs was probably released during Christ’s time in the flesh upon earth, (but may represent all of those who are willing to give their lives for others to protect them from evil throughout our history. Those others may also have been in the holding place when newly sacrificed Christ visited them there.) and this spirit will also produce fruit in the Latter times.
The sixth seal has also been removed….the spirit of man’s rule, man’s glory, wanting to be gods. It abounds.and mingles with the others who are still upon our earth… The red horse spirit of the dragon, the black horse spirit of world economy, the pale horse spirit of the antichrist and forever death….all support man’s glory of self and darken our world with confusion and babble in these times as TESHUVA’s vision spoke.
Our life line, and what keeps us from becoming blind is the Holy Spirit that Christ sent to guide us and open our eyes and our ears so we can hear our Sheppard’s voice.
The leader of the Jews (God’s holy people, who God has not abandoned, tho as a nation they did not recognize their Messiah.) spoke to our congress several months ago, receiving much standing ovation and applause….he said a great earthquake is occurring over in the middle east. That phrase really got my attention…I had never thought of what was going on over there in that manner….and instantly I was reminded of the great earthquake mentioned in Revelation when the 6th Seal period was being described. I think there will be a physical upheaval also….maybe one that will take our nation out of the system so we are not tempted to go against Israel on the order of our leader. We are having great and numerous earthquakes physically also on earth. I was so pleased to see those who represent me stand many times to give honor and support to this Jewish leader as he spoke to our representatives….when our pretend leader was out side our nation on a visit. I said to God, when they first stood with cheers and applause….standing, with tears in my eyes….see….see…we the people want to help, we want to protect them. I fear that our leader does not feel the same way….and hopefully God will go by our hearts not by his, and keep us the Wilderness where the woman was taken with two wings of an eagle to remain safe during the latter times. (my opinion). We as a continent were the wilderness at that time of the Bible, and even during Columbus’s time. We were the only nation on earth that was founded on God. We so desperately need to turn back to God instead of towards our human leaders….to be protected by God in the times to come.
The Darkness that you saw in your vision will completely cover our earth after God has removed His harvest. Than He will burn out the tares….leaving stubble in the fields. We Saints will help him replant the fields in the Millennium, one in mind with Him, perfectly teaching His Will.
Meredith, you are experiencing one of the functions and blessings of the organized church on earth. Community, that is a blessing they can offer. I was speaking only for myself. There are several churches around here that I attend and we socialize with the people within, I just can’t join them, because I cannot pledge to their doctrines written by man.
The Body of Believers includes all Believers…and we are all under the Authority of the Holy Spirit. I applaud all who find home within their churches. The Believers are the hands of God, but it is the Holy Spirit acting within and without those churches which conforms the minds of the Believers unto likemindedness with God The churches of wood where people gather can support that process, but the process is not limited to the wooden and masonry church structures that man builds.
We are to gather with other Believers wherever we find them. We are to be attracted to them as we recognize God shining forth from them.
Michelle,
I am not against storing up knowledge, as we never know when we may have a lean time and need to rely on that knowledge as a refuge from God to keep us safe or strong etc..
I have gleaned some things from you and have them stored up.
But you are alive and if you bring something that I do not understand, I can then ask you, the author for clarification if you have it, as with anyone else in the forum. Even still, I cannot help but believe that it takes the Lord to reveal it to the ones who are being shared with.
You may share something profound and it may be His will for me to be in the dark until I turn to Him that He may show me.
It is good to share and pray for one another as the Lord leads.
Claudia,
The seals, I do not know the knowledge you have been given.
I have had a vision of a scroll with a seal, but no words or understanding came with it.
I will now ponder that which you have given, and if He wants me to have light then He will reveal it to me in His time for me to know it.
As for the horsemen, I was shown it differently but more of a personal apocrypha and not a national one.
I saw them as lust, war, greed and death, all things of the corrupted self, and thus He bridled my passions or appetites, if you will so that they be no more.
I see in pictures as well and unless a word or knowledge comes then I am clueless until He unravels them or brings clarity.
What I am shown, I apply to myself first though it may be on a worldly scale.
Pastor Wayne; all those scriptures you quoted above were regarding the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST, the gospel story of Christ, from His birth, to His death, His decension, His ressurection, and ascension, leaving us the Holy Spirit, and that He came from the Father, did the Will of the Father, and that if we have seen Him we have also seen the Father, and that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him, just as we will be in Christ and he will be in us, and via that we will be in the Father. Christ is the only doctrine. Christ taught the Apostles. That which He taught is included in the doctrine, that to believe on Him is the only Doorway back, and without Him we do not have the FATHER. None of the Apostles were Christ, but they were guided by the Holy Spirit in all the works that they did for Christ. These things were the important Doctrine that was being spoken about, that which they were given via Christ.
That is the DOCTRINE they were talking about….not all the numerous other things that man consideres important and that man uses to drive others away from the Glory that is Christ.
2 John 1:9-11=Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Christ’s Yoke is simple, it is not the yoke of man and man’s doctrines, which man has heaped upon Christ’s yoke.
Such as the doctrine that Free Will Baptist churches have that forbid drinking wine or alchohol. The first miracle my LORD did was to turn water into wine for a wedding celebration. Do they try to make my LORD a sinner??????? Christ drank on occassion. God did not want us to not drink wine or other beverages. He just doesn’t want us to be drunk, and allow evil spirits and our own desires that are not of God to break forth during that time of drunkedness and lack of temperance.
These….such as above….and thousands of others are the doctrines of man.
Wayne asked:
“Why must these two options be mutually exclusive????”
For the most part the traditions and theologies of men and God’s revealed truth ARE mutually exclusive. That is why there are so many contradictory teachings and practices found across the church as each denomination follows its own chosen traditions.
Ot is God the author of the confusion? Does He reveal contradictory doctrines to perpetuate theological controversy?
Certainly NOT.
Amen Claudia, the doctrine of Christ – and you summed it up in a couple of paragraphs, whereas theologians write reams and reams and books and books! Of the making of many books there is no end! It does give me pause to wonder what on earth they are writing really.
Wayne, not many of us were wise when we were called, not many influential, or of noble birth etc, so I guess I just wonder who among us simple folk is going to be that interested in theology anyway, except maybe other theologians. ;) Oh give me the simplicity of Christ any day!
One highly educated Hebrew once said, after personally meeting Christ, “I used to know sooooo much stuff”. “I studied more than anyone else. All that matters now; all I now want to know is CHRIST, and Him crucified”. (my paraphrase)
Yes Mum, so simple, yet so very profound is His Gospel!
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
MEREDITH:
I would like to add an amen to what you said above. If what we gain from the gifts God provides us is not applied to our lives, then all that knowledge isn’t much good.
I know a number who read this site have been hurt so much by churches they’ve been a part of, that they’ve given up on the church altogether.
THAT IS NOT GOD’S DESIGN FOR HIS CHILDREN!!
In addition to His Word and His Spirit, He has made us a part of His body, and gave ministry gifts to His Church to help them grow, equip us for ministry, and keep us from being deceived spiritually (Eph. 4:11ff). As I’ve stated above I believe this includes what those ministry gifts have left behind for us as a spiritual legacy.
ONE HUGE MAJOR PROBLEM I get concerned about is that one of the major things God expects of us is to GIVE or SHARE what He’s given us. Or to put it another way – to be the part(s) of the Body He’s called us to.
For decades, my primary concern as I have gone to church (even when I was not the pastor of that church) has been, “What can I minister or give to the rest of the Body today?” (I also do this as I rub shoulders with the world).
Sometimes it may be a vocal gift of the Spirit (e.g. word of wisdom, Word of prophecy, etc.). Sometimes it has been in music ministry. Sometimes it is to minister to an individual or several after the service (or sometimes during).
It is also important for us not only to be part of the outreach ministry or ministries of the church, both local and farther away.
I, too, have been greatly hurt by a number of churches. However, at those times when I was not actively pastoring I ALWAYS made sure to make myself part of a local congregation. Often they have been in great spiritual error on one front or another, and the Lord had reasons (both for me and them) to be a part of that church for the time period He did.
However, I knew it was according to His Word that NONE of us should stop being an ACTIVE, participating part of His Body and the ministry gifts found there. While it has been quite a journey, it has always been within His written will in His Word and His specific will for me at the time.
We must be actively involved with a local body of believers and be APPLYING what God is teaching us. Again, knowledge without application is no good. God’s Word makes it abundantly clear on this matter. See the two houses built on different foundations in Matthew 7:24-27. Also take note that we will be judged by our works and not merely our knowledge (1 Peter 1:17; Revelation 20:12, 13).
Any public teaching or preaching I have done, I have always made sure there was a practical application of what was preached or taught.
HOWEVER, there must be good, solid teaching of doctrine for there to be a good, solid application of the Word.
God bless,
Wayne
CLAUDIA: You said, “Pastor Wayne; all those scriptures you quoted above were regarding the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST, . . .”
If you think all of doctrine is wrapped up in the list you gave, you are just proving the point that I have been saying. Many here have their own doctrine which does line up with Scripture – or only partially lines up with Scripture..
Moreover, some have chosen not only to perpetrate their ignorance, but also to demonstrate their pride by setting themselves up as the only channel through which the Holy Spirit can operate.
That pride is enhanced as they belittle and degrade the members of the Body of Christ who have been teachers – not only to their time but also to this generation – whether they chose to listen or not.
You further said, “Such as the doctrine that Free Will Baptist churches have that forbid drinking wine or alchohol. The first miracle my LORD did was to turn water into wine for a wedding celebration. Do they try to make my LORD a sinner???????”
Likely because you are not willing to look at what other teachers in Christ’s Body have you say, you don’t even realize that there are eleven words in Hebrew to describe various types of wine? One of those is used to describe “fresh wine” or “new wine,” which is freshly made, unfermented wine. This was generally considered to be the “best wine” as it started its fermentation process shortly after that. I believe there is a good chance (since Greek makes no such distinctions) that the wine Christ created was this wine as it is referred to as the “best wine” in John 2. Hence Christ did not sin, nor did He cause anyone else to sin by His miracle (e.g. drunkeness).
But I suppose some are quite content to stay in their ignorance, create their own doctrine as it pleases them – or as they are deceived by others and themselves – see Jeremiah 17:9, 10. No man/woman is an island unto himself.
In my study of God’s Word (and I’ve studied it 1000′s of times more than any other type of book), in addition to the Holy Spirit, I’d rather look to God’s other gifts within the Body and benefit from their contribution to the Body and Christ’s ministry to the larger Church as a whole, than to think I the Holy Spirit can only work through me to show me what He wants me to learn.
Those who prefer their own ways (no matter what “Biblical” or spiritual justification they give for them) and remain in their spiritual infancy and ignorance are welcome to do so. As Christ said, “But wisdom is justified of all her children.” (Luke 7:35)
As for me, this is the last I shall write on this article. Any who wish to find the truth in what I’ve written has already been written above.
If anyone wants me to say anymore or answer any further questions they have you can contact me privately at pastor@gatm.ca
I love none of you any less, but I do weep for some.
My prayers for Gods blessings continue to be with you regardless of where you stand on the issue,
Wayne
“…than to think I the Holy Spirit can only work through me to show me what He wants me to learn.”
__________
What I have been saying:
1) Go to scripture for yourself and see for yourself what scripture reveals.
2) Trust the Holy Spirit to be your teacher instead of sifting through countless contradictory teachings published or preached by men. We have no less access to the Spirit’s help than anyone else and therefore no less opportunity to receive understanding from Him.
3) Trust God to give you confirmation or correction of the understanding you have gained through the above (to make sure it is HIS understanding and not your own or someone else’s).
Confirmation/correction will mostly come through fellowship with Spirit led believers. Two or more genuinely Spirit led believers will not be taught contradictory things by the Spirit. (But be sure they ARE Spirit led – this is easier to do when you KNOW them and communicate with them personally, which is not usually the case if you turn to some distant theologian or teacher).
4) Live what you have learned.
1) Word.
2) Spirit.
3) Fellowship.
4) Act.
Pastor Wayne…
totally agree with you.
We’ve all been hurt by people. Inside the church and out of the church. Believers and unbelievers. It happens to us all. We treat those who hurt us usually the same way. Ignore them..avoid them..hurt them back..whatever. That’s why God gives us ways to get past this…forgiveness and loving each other…with the Holy Spirit’s help…encouraging each other in the Lord..that’s why we need each other. That’s why we need to gather together. God shows us another way to live….other than the way our flesh wants. That’s the life in the Spirit. When we hurt each other…God gives us a way to bring life to it and grow us spiritually by forgiving one another…learning to have grace with each other…walking with each other in hard times and in good…helping each other. When believers don’t take part in that…or stay away from gathering because they have been hurt…or “don’t want to join man’s assembly” or what have you…you cheat yourself out of what God has for us in this life.
Living in isolation is not what God has ever intended for those who love Him and follow Him. Making excuses for not being a part of a physical body of Christ(church) because of hurts or “deception in the church” or all the other things people come up with to stay away from other believers is just…fleshy.
Meredith, has this discussion with Wayne really had anything to do with staying away from other believers? Or “not being a part of a physical body of Christ”?
Or has it been addressing the trust being put in “celebrity” theologians and teachers who we don’t personally know (many of who contradict each other) instead of trusting the teaching of the Spirit (who we should know) and the Spirit led believers we personally fellowship with?
Tim…
I don’t know if you read what I posted at the first about walking the talk?
“Or has it been addressing the trust being put in “celebrity” theologians and teachers who we don’t personally know (many of who contradict each other) instead of trusting the teaching of the Spirit (who we should know) and the Spirit led believers we personally fellowship with? ”
Not celebrity theologians and teachers…but those who post here with spiritual dissertations …I wonder if they have fellowship with other believers and are teaching what they have been taught by the Holy Spirit? Giving it away..so to speak. Making Disciples….walking the talk. Rubbing elbows with others with skin on….iron sharpening iron…or are they keeping all this to themselves.
It’s easy to “teach” on the internet and “give away” what you know and how you live…and if someone disagrees with you…ya just turn off the PC. No accountability..really. You have to be accountable for your words when your face to face with someone. Lots of super spiritual talk…I find it hard to believe..given the nature of the flesh we contend with…they live the way some say they do. Maybe…I just haven’t arrived yet. ;0)
From the original article:
“I want to encourage you to speak in tongues more. If you do not
have this God-given gift, let me encourage you to seek it. ”
———
There have been many responses to this throughout the 200+ comments above.
Many agree with the view expressed. Many disagree.
Why the difference of opinion? Where did the differences in these opinions originate?
Why do some support and others oppose? What has informed those different viewpoints?
Clearly the opposing views can not both be right. How COULD the right view be obtained?
Where are we most likely to find the truth? By referring to theological opinion (which will likely be equally divided between pros and cons) – or do we go to what God has revealed through His word and trust Him, the one who inspired scripture, to reveal the truth to us?
How willing would we be to change and abandon our viewpoint if we are shown we have been wrong? Or would we choose to search out a teacher to convince us why we were really right all along even though scripture seems to refute what we had believed.
- To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. – Titus 1:15-16
Dear all,
Let us entrust one another in the hands of our ALL KNOWING GOD. He knows how to guide each one of us in our specific/unique situations and circumstances. He has a specific calling for each of us (one is an eye, one is an ear, another one is a hand, a leg and so on), and you all will agree that each of our situations and circumstances vary. Our knowledge, our experiences and their degree (whether good or bad), the level of our walk with God, also vary. I believe, you all will agree with me that the outlook and the approach of the CEO of a company/organisation varies from that of a staff member, working in that organisation. It is wisdom that we do, what He has called us to do, than intrude into anothers sphere and mess with God’s purpose and will for their life.
Shalom!
In Christ,
Sheeja