HISTORY of THE “PROSPERITY” GOSPEL – Wikipedia
The early Pentecostal Movement did not embrace prosperity theology. A recognizable form of the doctrine began to take shape within the movement during the 1940s and 1950s, through the teachings of Pentecostal deliverance and healing evangelists…
Combining prosperity teaching with revivalism and faith healing,
these evangelists taught “the laws of faith (‘ask and ye shall
receive’) and the laws of divine reciprocity (‘give and it will be given
back unto you’)”.
One prominent early figure in prosperity theology was E. W.
Kenyon, educated in the 1890s at Emerson College of Oratory,
where he was exposed to the New Thought movement. Kenyon
later became connected with well-known Pentecostal leaders and
wrote about supernatural revelation and positive declarations. His
writing influenced leaders of the nascent prosperity movement
during the post-war American healing revival.
Oral Roberts began teaching prosperity theology in 1947. He
explained the laws of faith as a “blessing pact” in which God would
return donations “seven fold”, promising that donors would receive
back from unexpected sources the money they donated to him.
Roberts offered to return any donation that did not lead to an
equivalent unexpected payment. In the 1970s, Roberts
characterized his blessing pact teaching as the “seed faith”
doctrine: donations were a form of “seed” which would grow in
value and be returned to the donor. Roberts began recruiting
“partners”, wealthy donors who received exclusive conference
invitations and ministry access in exchange for support.
In 1953, faith healer A. A. Allen published The Secret to Scriptural
Financial Success and promoted merchandise such as prayer
cloths, anointed with “miracle oil” and “miracle tent shavings”. In
the late 1950s, Allen increasingly focused on prosperity. He taught
that faith could miraculously solve financial problems and claimed
to have had a miraculous experience in which God supernaturally
changed one-dollar bills into twenty-dollar bills to allow him to pay
his debts. Allen taught the “word of faith”, or the power to speak
something into being.
In the 1960s, prosperity became a primary focus in healing revivals.
T. L. Osborn began emphasizing prosperity in the 1960s and
became known for his often ostentatious displays of personal
wealth. During that decade, Roberts and William Branham
criticized other prosperity ministries, arguing that their fund-raising
tactics unfairly pressured attendees. These tactics were prompted
in part by the expense of developing nationwide radio networks and
campaign schedules. At the same time, leaders of the Pentecostal
Assemblies of God denomination often criticized the focus on
prosperity taken by independent healing evangelists.
Televangelism
During the 1960s, prosperity gospel teachers embraced
televangelism and came to dominate religious programming in the
United States. Oral Roberts led the way, developing a syndicated
weekly program that became the most watched religious show in
the United States. By 1968, television had supplanted the tent
meeting in his ministry.
In the 1980s, public attention in the United States was drawn to
prosperity theology through the influence of prominent
televangelists Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker. Their influence
waned, however, after they were implicated in high-profile scandals.
In the aftermath, Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) emerged as
the dominant force in prosperity televangelism, having brought
Robert Tilton and Benny Hinn to prominence.
Word of Faith
Although nearly all of the healing evangelists of the 1940s and ’50s
taught that faith could bring financial rewards, a new
prosperity-oriented teaching developed in the 1970s that differed
from the one taught by Pentecostal evangelists of the 1950s. This
“Positive Confession” or “Word of Faith” movement taught that a
Christian with faith can speak into existence anything consistent
with the will of God.
Kenneth Hagin has been credited with a key role in the expansion
of prosperity theology. He founded the RHEMA Bible Training
Center in 1974, and over the next 20 years, the school trained
more than 10,000 students in his theology. As is true of other
prosperity movements, there is no theological governing body, and
well-known ministries differ on some theological issues. The
teachings of Kenneth Hagin have been described by Candy
Gunther Brown of Indiana University as the most “orthodox” form
of Word of Faith prosperity teaching.
Recent U.S. history
The Neo-Pentecostal movement has been characterized in part by
an emphasis on prosperity theology, which gained greater
acceptance within charismatic Christianity during the late 1990s.
By 2006, three of the four largest congregations in the United
States were teaching prosperity theology, and Joel Osteen has
been credited with spreading it outside of the Pentecostal and
Charismatic movement through his books, which have sold over 4
million copies. Bruce Wilkinson’s The Prayer of Jabez also sold
millions of copies and invited readers to seek prosperity.
By the 2000s, adherents of prosperity theology in the United
States were most common in the Sun Belt.[10] In the late 2000s,
proponents claimed that tens of millions of Christians had
accepted prosperity theology. A 2006 poll by Time reported that 17
percent of Christians in America said they identified with the movement.
International growth
In the 2000s, churches teaching prosperity theology saw significant
growth in the Third World. According to Philip Jenkins of
Pennsylvania State University, poor citizens of impoverished
countries often find the doctrine appealing because of their
economic powerlessness and the doctrine’s emphasis on miracles.
One region seeing explosive growth is Western Africa, particularly
Nigeria. In the Philippines, the El Shaddai movement, part of the
Catholic Charismatic Renewal, has spread prosperity theology
outside Protestant Christianity…
-Read Full Article-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
The Word of God is pretty simple and clear about this faulty focus:
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
The idea of measuring the strenth of “spirituality” in terms of this world is ridiculous.
Tithing in itself is a Prosperity Gospel also but is ignored as such. Abram[ just like Rachel taking her foreign gods with her and Jacob[ , took with him the ten percent tax system [ we use today as tithing ] that was a Babylonian custom which was done as they celebrated with loud music , just as we do today ironically so..
The law of the tithe is not part of the new covenant. Giving is! Giving Joyfully and freely is, while expecting nothing in return, knowing God loves a cheerful giver. The priesthood system went out with the old covenent. Jesus is our one and only High Priest in the new covenant. The tithe was for the support of the priesthood system. I don’t personally believe you can out-give God. When you cast your bread upon the waters it most certainly returns blessings to you. But it may not have a thing to do with monetary gain. God knows what we need, and I don’t think His focus is on how rich He wants to make us in worldly goods. God wants us to set our affections on things above not things or the earth for we are dead and our life is hid with Christ in God. Love of money is the root of all evil, and it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God. Money isn’t the problem, it is only a problem when it becomes our love, our greatest desire, our goal in life and all that it can buy,.. A camel goes through the eye of the needle, those small openings in the walls of a town, on it’s knees. With the times and seasons that are almost upon us, becoming humble before God seems like the best course to be on.
“poor citizens of impoverished
countries often find the doctrine appealing because of their
economic powerlessness” – This statement is particularly true. I have seen it fist hand in Zimbabwe where the people are poverty stricken and the unemployment rate affects more than half of the country.
There is a lesson to be learned here.
This pentecostal movement seems to have started off right. The real gifts of the spirit were probably in operation and things were looking well.
Then came the first small deceptions in small increments and one or two preachers started to get false revelations which they carried over into their bible schools and everything grew from there.
It basically ended up in full blown apostasy and the worship of mammon. The thing is that the carnal or natural mind is in tune with satans kingdom, that is why we are in a fallen state needing the gospel of salvation. The renewing of our minds in the word of God is what makes the difference.
This also points out the need for the testing of the spirit in the operation of the prophetic gifts. If that had been done back then then a lot of deception would not have had a chance to take root.
Fact is this kind of thing is happening all the time. A ministry starts off well with such promise but because the testing is not done it gets polluted in small incremental steps until the spirit of God withdraws and the denomination gets by on showmanship and and the false giftings until full bondage to the doctrines of demons holds the group in an iron grip.
Being in a 3rd world country, is so frustrating when people preach financial prosperity; and somehow nothing comes right. Nearly made me give up on God.
I came to the realization, that God placed us all in specific coutnries, families, jobs.. And we are to be content, because God is in control.
As for Joel Osteen, I love him. Suffering from manic depression- he has helped me realize that faith is being positive, we actually serve a positive God, that encourages and loves and to never give up on ourselves, or God. Joel to me is like a motivator, than a pastor.
On the other hand I don’t like preachers that say put down an amount, then only will I pray, then only will God heal. Nonsence
The kingdom of God revolves around God. The kingdom of satan revolves around self.
You have to ask, what is your motivation for coming to Christ. Is it to pursue God or is it to gain for self.
You will find that there is way more of the false than there is of the real.
The other side of the coin!
While I do not embrace the message these men who preached health and wealth, I do believe Jesus did not call us to take vows of poverty.
A man can have nothing in life and still be covetous.
I think that its the attitude of the heart when it comes to material positions in this life.
We see the rich young ruler going away distraught because Jesus said to sell all and follow me.
But Zacharius said he would restore anything that he received unlawfully.
Jesus told his disciples yes I will give you lands and houses with persecutions.
On the other hand Jesus did not tell them to go preach this message to everyone that as we know, was not the purpose of the gospel.
I do believe God will bless and take care of his people. Why third world nations exist?
Many of this places are steeped in pagan religions, and the occult, etc.
Again I do not support this message that was promoted because I can not find where Jesus said, go tell them I will make them wealthy.
Some people are born in wealthy nations while some are born in third world nations.
Just some thoughts here I am sure some do not agree!! :)
Christianity is the property of Christ. I m amazed how easily the world slips into the body of Christ and creates gossip. One christian speaking against another.
Judge not lest ye be judged in like manner. I know but one thing, Christ crucified for my sins. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I am ashamed of any thought that does not lift the name of Jesus and glorify my Father in heaven.
God bless my brothers and sisters and forgive each of us for speaking evil of our family.
As a scholar and teacher, Wikipedia is not an excepted source for information. No one has to cite their findings. It is an open forum library of public thought. As a believer, if Jesus was as broke as everyone claims, did his mom and dad steal all the gold, frankensence, and myhr? We does a broke God need a treasurer amounts his disciples while ministering on earth? I’ll look to scriptures foundation rather than wikpeadia (my daughter’s high school doesn’t allow sourcing it) should we concern ourselves with this topic. Just do what Jesus said, “the sower went forth to sow…” Let’s present this gospel of Jesus saves to the lost and not worry how God deals with the money changers! I don’t want to end up praying like the Levites at the altar….
Hi Guys,
Although I agree that the Prosperity teaching is in essence antichrist, however it has morphed into the full blown harlot church which no longer requires repentance for salvation.
I have heard such doctrinal horrors that it made me wonder if some of these great men (and hordes of little following men) have ever read the bible. My wife and I had a mini revy when reminded of John chapter one “in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God” Jesus is the word made flesh so if we only cherry pick the bits we want and then like two post modern pasters have stated that holiness is legalism then they are not just cherry picking but standing against the teachings of the gospel. Priests of the false church as it were.
The life coaching style of preaching says dont feel bad about yourself or anything you have done just move on. I heard these exact words today on Christian radio. The false church is no longer a future event, most spirit filled christians are falling for this soft gospel and like our manic depressive friend it makes you feel good but it does not bring deliverance. The annointing breaks the yolk lets get back to the basics and get them right.
I agree that the prosperity teaching according to the word will bring a curse on the preachers if they are doing it for their own wealth however the crossless gospel is a much bigger issue lets give this some air time as it is time to sound the alarm about this also.
Regards Oskar
I have followed the prosperity teachings for 20+ years. About 4 years ago, I discovered a big error in the teaching. This teaching is made clear in Hanna Whitall Smith’s book “A Christian’s Secret to a Happy Life.” This book teaches on obedience which is missing from the prosperity gospel. And it makes it very clear that without obedience, you can kiss your blessings goodbye. I asked the Lord, “Why didn’t you give me this book 15 years ago?” His answer was, “It wasn’t time yet.” You can find the book published on the Internet and it is free.
Obedience also requires that you hear God’s voice. Obedience is a day by day, hour by hour thing that requires you to be obedient in the small things, not just the 10 commandments.
Hearing God’s voice is not too difficult. You must spend time with Him in your prayer closet. More than just 15 minutes a day. Remember Anna the Prophetess. She spent all day with God in the temple. Let the Spirit lead you on this. It is going to require that you turn off your TV set and abandon all the other distractions. Put God first.
God Bless
The Late Brother Kenneth Hagin, did try to correct a lot of the extreme unscriptural practices that had transpired, before he moved into heaven, within the prosperity gospel. It opened my eyes as one of my now “former” Pastors was practicing half of what brother Hagin condemned. He even said to tithe what you wanted to earn, i.e. if you wanted to earn $100000 a year then tithe to that, even though you might be on 50000 a year. A friend told me that I should lend my book to him, I couldn’t I had scribbled half what he was doing in it. Sad thing was I went to see him and found this book on his shelve unread, anyway. For what its worth is still on ebay, I enjoy KH as a teacher but with all teachers simply sift and strain, nobody is perfect. This certainly helped us see through the extreme side of it. Personally I like prosperity, having my needs met, bills paid, & kids fed and clothed. But lets get it into a scriptural perspective.
The Midas Touch: A Balanced Approach to Biblical Prosperity by Kenneth E. Hagin
I wonder if any of you noticed that this comes from a completely secular source, just like the video we saw from Africa recently? If the person, or presenting, writing showed any sign of understanding what they were seeing, apart from someone trying to make money from their congregations, I would probably take notice, but these sources? No chance.
In your studies of the ao-called ‘PROSPERITY DOCTRINE’ have you noticed that most of the emphasis is on giving? Have you noticed that Jesus talks about giving, and that Paul talks about giving, and that the Old Testament places a lot of emphasis on giving? Whether you believe in tithing or not, there is still an emphasis on giving. Jesus even said if you give it will be given back to you, pressed diown, shaken together and running over.
Where is the argument? Read 2 Corinthinans 9:1-15. Paul says God provides seed for the sower and bread for the eater, that we will have enough for every good work. The idea being that we give to God, He gives to us, we give to the poor and needy (‘true religion’, James calls this), and we give back to God.
Teach a man the truth of the Word of God (to give) and you start the cycle for them!
Obviously there are people who distort the teaching, but that does not make it wrong! Nor does it make the people who teach it the Antichrist.
Let’s be really careful here, because Paul warns us in Galatians 5:14-15 that we are to love one another, because if we bite and devour each other we need to be careful that we are not consumed(destroyed) by one another.
It’s time to stop attacking the church – we are all one body and if one person suffers the whole body suffers.
How about finding out from one of the televangelists where they spend all the money they collect – you might be very pleasantly surprised.
Grace and peace to all of you!
I am deeply saddened to hear such horrible things said about Kenneth Hagin. I am a two year graduate of Rhema in the late seventies, and my husband a one year grad. I sat at the feet of this General for years, and he shaped our whole lives for Christ. We have been in the ministry since 1978 and pastored and lived in the Soviet Union for years where we founded a great Russia Church. The endless testimonies that we could give of what we endured and things God was able to accomplish as we laid down our very lives to do His will……and all we learned that kept us going in the hardships and agony was learned under Bro Hagin.
We pulled away from the Prosperity Movement and it’s money lust, but Kenneth Hagin was NEVER PART of that kind of thing! EVER! He was ALWAYS a very pure man of God. AND LOVING!
This constant ripping and shredding of God’s prophets like Bro Hagin is going to cost us greatly at the Judgment Seat of Christ……far more than we realize. How this all grieves the heart of our Father! Expose, yes! But to keep on and keep on and keep on is sick and surely not of God. In the Evangelical movement their is utter wickedness too, but whether Charismatic or Evangelical…..we must stop this ripping and shredding of the characters of people constantly! Jesus never kept on and on and on shredding……..He just went about the Father’s business preaching the Gospel, healing the sick, and making disciples!
In shredding characters….we run the risk of “touching those who are God’s anointed.” We must be very careful……and when we do….we must be weeping and weeping over our own faults and shortcomings as well as broken hearts for these ones who have fallen. And covering their sins……NOT ALWAYS pointing the finger and thinking we are doing the Kingdom a favor! That is not God’s way! Love covers the multitude of sins. And we shall be judged with the same judgment we judge others! And when the world watches us do this….they are not so much awed by these one’s sins, but by the way we rip and shred EACH OTHER in His Body. What an evil religious spirit we have to do such!
May God help us to stop!
Joyce
Prosperity teaching does work but only for the slick hucksters who are promoting it. Their excuse: the workman is worthy of his hire.”
I believe according to Colossians 3:1-4
That if you are living your best life now, you are going to Hell.
http://sospression.com/2012/02/21/if-you-are-living-your-best-life-now-you-are-going-to-hell-week-of-swords-and-axes-day-2/
Anyone who is in Christ is God’s anointed. David confronted Saul to his face in front of his armies, and David was “a man after God’s own heart.” Many false prophets are gone outi into the world. Hooray for the heresy hunters!
Word of faith and the prosperity doctrine are both an enemy of G-d. G-d is not an ATM machine nor can you call anything into existence by using His precious Word. These types of gospels and teachings (heresies) should be avoided at all COST. (pun intended!) LOL
Such harsh attitudes and I wonder what spirit we are judging so harshly out of? The harshness of the Body today is heartbreaking. The churches are filled with Christians tearing each other apart, and fighting about who is scripturally right and who is wrong. “The letter of the Law killeth”….a deep rooted sickness of the end days. “And they (the World) shall know us by our LOVE…..not our head knowledge of the Bible. What kind of sweet spirit do we have that would draw them to us and Christ, or would we come out swinging with our Swords at them?
Extremities are never good! For people to prosper materially in this world is PART of why Jesus Christ died. God’s original plan for humanity is revealed in Genesis 1 & 2. Man had dominion over the animals, birds etc.God never created this earth for the benefit of the devil and demons. The earth and its fullness belongs to God. That was before the fall. Before the fall man was in charge of the garden and in a way master of the earth until he handed over dominion of the earth the devil. Besides, the word salvation does not just refer to being born again only. It refers to the complete restoration of humanity which includes being born again, healing, prosperity, preservation, protection, success, dominion etc. Christ died for all that. To preach only one bit of what salvation stands for is flawed. We want a message that encompasses God’s whoalistic approach to salvation not just one bit irrespective of what it is. Let’s preach salvation as God gave to us instead of spending time critising other ministries. God always exposes false preachers and He will deal with them, so good people, preach the word. Talking about Kenneth Hagin is not the word. Kenneth Hagin did his bit and he is with his maker right now. Do your bit! Preach the word! Preach the word don’t spend time running down other ministers. That’s not what God called us to do. There are millions and millions of people that need Jesus Christ and all you feeding them with is how wrong Kenneth Hagin is/was. Shame on us! The devil must be having a party seeing how we run each other down instead of focusing on the mission at hand, leading people to Christ. If Kenneth Hagin, EW Kenyon and all the people mentioned in that article are wrong, God will deal with them, but if you wrong, not only are you preaching a false teaching, but you are running down other men and women raised and used by God. Be wise like Gamalial in the book of Acts who realised that anything of man comes to nothing but if its God you might find yourself fighting against God.
But i will say this and agree somewhat with Joyce.
Prosperity is in 3 John 2
and Word of Faith is in Romans 10
Its dumb and inaccurate, and a waste of prophetic energy to try to correct a scripture.
There are much easier and accurate ways to bring correction. You can expound on words like ‘covetousness’ ‘wolves in sheeps a clothing’, ‘the error of balaam’ ‘the doctrine of jezebel’ ‘the judas anointing’ and several other biblical swords that are more accurate. Biblical language is more accurate but if we spend more time on ravenhill and tozer quotes, we end up lacking the accurate revelation that it takes to bring real correction.
http://sospression.com/2012/02/21/if-you-are-living-your-best-life-now-you-are-going-to-hell-week-of-swords-and-axes-day-2/
Money is not the issue. Prosperity is not the issue. It is the wickedness of the heart.
God does not mind that we have money, He wants us to prosper but He does not want money to have us. For those that may not know it takes money to preach the gospel. Pastors and evangelists need to live also. The lavish lifestyle of some is an abomination to God but to say that prosperity is wrong is to pervert the gospel. In the New Testament we are not limited to giving a tithe. God provides abundance in order to promote the gospel. When that happens then the end will come. That takes money.
If there’s anything that sickens is to realize how Christians have deviated from letting the holy spirit lead them.Beloved Romans 8:14 says For as many are lead by the spirit of Christ they’re the sons of God.Therefore if you truely believe that Jesus dwells in you ask yourselves if your comments have been prompted by the wonderful Counsellor inside you otherwise you risk being an advocate of the enemy of God’s people and accuser of the brethren and you all know this to be the DEVIL
David: I agree with you that Wikipedia is not always on the same par as more reputable academic resources, but the segment above is a fair reflection of the way the “Prosperity Gospel” developed. This does not mean that every one who bought /buys into it is a heretic or huckster. It also does not mean that the Bible never speaks of God’s providence. I think the concern here is with an imbalanced an extreme view of prosperity.
Kennedy: The author of Hebrews quotes Psalm 8 which points back to Genesis 1′s intended “dominion”, and then concludes that “at present we do not see everything subject to him (man), but we do see Jesus…”, and then it goes on to quote Psalm 8 again but in reference to Jesus. Read Hebrews 2. The point is that God’s intended dominion has only manifested in ONE place at this point in time, and that is in Jesus Christ. That is why Hebrews is full of reminders to “look” at Jesus, to “consider” him, etc. He is the object of our faith. As we look at him we see our future dominion displayed. He is the firstborn from among the dead, the first of many brothers etc. We haven’t arrived yet, and it is erroneous to suggest that we have. That is why we live by faith, which is the point of Hebrews. Faith = setting our eyes on Jesus, the perfector and finisher of our faith.
Hello,
Some interesting comments.
Here in the UK the Prosperity pundits are on our tv screens.
One thing really puzzles me is a certain Mr Poppov has folks on his programme week after week who clain to have received thousands of dollars usually from ” nowhere”. Does any one on these pages know of any person who has had these sums of money.
Do you know of any one who has first hand knowledge ??
Surely its time for these who make the clain to be interviewed as to HOW the money came to them. Or are they all liars or stooges?
Has any one any proof, surely someone must know somene who knows someone etc
Saw the other day of a Dr M. M. who felt psalm 40 (?) come to mind and a donation of $40 would be a suitable seed. ( good job it was not Psalm 119 !)
Looking at the comments it would appear that the article is not factually correct and has not been checked out prior to posting it.
It is all very confusing. and God is not the author of confusion.
@ I believe, when Jesus said we/they would have lands and houses with persecutions , it was fulfilled in acts when people sold their houses and laid the money at the Apostles feet to be distributed to those who had need. And it can still be continuously fulfilled today… Jesus was not saying you will have all of this stuff to prove the Gospel, it was a community/family helping each other and did not care about stuff…and to the others here on this blog it is biblical to refute false doctrine and to name names, not that its the focus…Andrew does not always Focus on these things…for example: not everyone wants to work at a funeral home but somebody’s gotta do it. read your bible, put the word of God first and place mans view second, be a good berean and study to show your self approved.
I’ll agree with Steve G. from Australia above … for the Wikipedia article to be complete, it should have included Kennith Hagin’s attempt to correct the prosperity excesses four years before his death.
Here’s an excerpt of that meeting …
“Few seem to be aware of the fact that Brother Hagin had convened a special meeting in Tulsa, Oklahoma on the campus of RHEMA Bible Training Center, in the Fall of 1999. The topic: Excesses and error present within the “prosperity” message being taught by the major Word of Faith ministries.”
“Among those whom were reported to have been in attendance at that meeting were:
• Kenneth Copeland
• Creflo Dollar
• Jerry Savelle
• Jesse Duplantis
• Mac Hammond
• Steve Parson
“Also summoned to the meeting was the “money cometh” preacher himself, Dr. Leroy Thompson. He refused to attend, however. Steve Parson explained to us that Mac Hammond reported to the group in attendance that he had previously called Leroy Thompson to find out why he was refusing to attend. “God told me not to come,” he replied. “That’s funny,” reportedly answered Mac, “God told me to call you and tell you to come. So one of us is missing it.”
“When those who had agreed to attend were present in the room, Brother Hagin explained (and I paraphrase), “I called you all together to this special meeting because I need to address some error and excess in within the Word of Faith ‘camp’ regarding the prosperity message. I have written a book entitled, “The Midas Touch: A Balanced Approach to Biblical Prosperity”, and it will be coming out very soon.”
“In order to avoid strife and confusion among our ranks, however, I wanted to convene this meeting and address these issues with you—the major Word of Faith ministries teaching this doctrine—in person first. That way, you all can adjust your messages accordingly before the book comes out, and there will be no contention among us.”
“Brother Hagin did share with those ministers that day his biblical counsel. Further, he gave them all advanced copies of the paperback edition of the book, which was subsequently released in 2000. In 2002 the hardback edition of The Midas Touch came out on the market, and is now the only version available “new” at the time of this writing.”
Joyce I also followed some of Hagins teaching in the early 70s. What completely turned me off was his insistence that you could “Write your own ticket with God”. He wrote and spoke extensively on this point. I do believe he was not purposefully deceitful as so many others were and are though, and he did have some very valid teachings.
I so wish the prosperity teachers would put their money where their mouth is. They need to demonstrate the “truth” of their teachings by submitting to a yearly public audit and give at least 90% of everything they get to the poor and other ministries. In just 10 years, the math says this would easily make them the richest men on earth and the audit will have proven their point. I don’t believe we’ll ever see any of them do this LOL.
Very interesting and varied comments by those above. God does want us to prosper. However, it is as our soul prospers. it is not for selfish gain, but that we may be well able to help those in need, in addition to taking care of our own responsibilities. We are to seek first the kingdom of God, then all these things shall be added unto us. The true message of prosperity has been abused, and used for personal gain. It is no wonder many fall, for the glory is to be God’s, not man’s.
I do not agree with prosperity teaching, Every time I turn on the TBN,they are begging for money, even If I had no job and lived in a shack,I am rich, My Abba loves me and has a home for me,not of this world..He provides! I will not judge Prosperity Preachers,I will pray for them> they are deceived. quit talking about Money so much and have your hands stuck out every minute for money, teach what people need to hear…
I have never been able to remember “labels” easily, tho I did well in school. Famous names will sound vaguely familiar to me….but I don’t always put the right context upon those names. Like my mistake with the Koran and Torah the other day. I had the right concept, but the wrong label. I don’t want to offend anyone, but I have to stand up for how God moves me. I apologize if I offend any on this list. I have faith that true Believers will be moved closer to God before the last sentence in our History here on earth is written. I pray for that with all my heart.
I am crying as I write my thoughts after reading this history of prosperity theology. Shocking that it started at the beginning of the last 70 years of man’s rule here upon earth. (that beginning somewhere around 1945 to 1948.) I find it a shocking revelation that this movement of prosperity started in the 1940-1950 period of time on earth. The same time the UN gathered to form a one world governing system under the promptings of the dragon. God does not want to unite the world under man. One of the reasons He first destroyed Babylon and scattered the people and gave them languages that would separate them, one from another. 1945-50′s….the same time as God started putting “Tyre” back to prominence for the last 70 years of these Latter Time; just as He has given Israel these last 70 years to make up for their iniquity and recognize the one who they pierced.
Isaiah 23: 15=And it shall come to pass in that day, (in that day can refer to the Day of the Lord) that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. (the harlot on the red beast?)……..17-18=And it shall be, at the end of seventy years, (I believe that this 70 years is the same 70 years that Daniel was given for Israel in the Latter times. Those 70 “weeks” being one Jewish Calendar Year of 7 Sabbaths which all fall within a 7 month period during any one year of the Jewish Calendar….which was given to them by God.) that the LORD will visit Tyre. She (Tyre) will return to her pay, and commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world on the face of the earth. Her gain and her pay will be set apart for the LORD; it will not be treasured nor laid up, for her gain will be for those who dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently and for fine clothing. The next Chapter 24 starts right out with the end times discussing the earth being made empty by the LORD. (By the way…the original scrolls of scripture were not organized in Chapters. The Chapters were applied by man.) I believe this Tyre speaking can be brought forward to the End Times.
There are some scriptures about Tyre, in Ezekiel, Chapters 26, 27, and 28, that attach it to the dragon and Garden of Eden, and project it forward to the latter times. I also find it interesting when reading these chapters, knowing that there is a buried city off of the coast of the Asian shores. My mind is brought to China (who honors the dragon as the most esteemed year) and how she has been made to prosper during these latter years we are in. I am somewhat relieved that we in the United States are loosing our economic edge. I do not want to be associated with Babylon. Satan, the dragon, most beautiful, has his dominion hand on many structures (economic, universities, religions) and peoples of our time….as he guides them for his purposes, which have already been defeated by my LORD on the cross. Read especially verses 12 through 26 of Chapter 28 of Ezekiel, which speak of the “King of Tyre”. Fascinating!
If this is what man is doing with their “gifts”…what a change from the first Believers. This is TEMPTING God……”Lead me not into temptation”, is a two fold prayer to God. The first is that we should never tempt our God….it is dangerous! Christ made that clear when the dragon was tempting Christ after 40 days of fasting, asking Christ to test His Divinity and His Father’s love, by turning rocks to bread, by asking Christ to act foolishly and jump off the pinnacle, and by offering Him all the riches of the world….and Christ told him that it is written that we should not tempt the Lord thy God, nor should we worship (desire/adore) or serve anything (wealth/glory/pride/position/power/security/self esteem…you name it) but the Lord. I believe with all my heart that Christ was speaking about tempting God, using God, manipulating God for our own material and egotistical means instead of trusting for whatever the Master should provide to His children. To focus on self, on wealth here on earth, instead of living modestly as did our Lord is vanity and pride. Our focus should be on others. We should be looking towards God’s face, not towards our own within a mirror.
We should not do good because we expect a reward. We should do good as did the Apostles, expecting nothing. They considered it enough to give their lives for Christ. The gain is not here….it is in eternity. The prosperity theology seems to be about coming to the Lord because what we can materially gain for ourselves here on earth. It seems allot like pimping out my LORD. We should come to the Lord because we recognize Him and from that recognition we fall in love with Him. We come to Him so that we can give our lives if necessary for Him….to die for Him, spiritually and physically if necessary.
I have often looked at all that God has provided for me on this earth, and said, I will still love you if you take it all away…because I know it does not belong to me. Your are enough for me. When I learned more about Christ as a little girl reading the Bible alone (without human guidance), I used to cry with all my heart and wish that I was back in His time so i could die for Him, stand for Him, lose everything for Him….to show my love for Him. (That scares me now, as an adult…because I see the possibilities in our future…and this life here on earth has grown upon me…but I stand by those statements as a child.)
I have never once thought of or prayed for increase for myself or my family. I prayed that He would provide our daily bread. I prayed that He would open the eyes of people so that they could see both good and evil and make their choice with clarity. (perhaps that occurs in the Millennium.) I have always been repelled when hearing or singing in a church about our mansion in the skies and the glory of it. I will be satisfied with and adore a small cottage in eternity, placed where ever He sees fit and prepared with His knowledge of me. (Tho….I suspect that mansion He went to prepare for all of us, was the temple within each of us that will exist when we are transformed, and when the Mellinium Kingdom is finished…..some building blocks already within us.) A small cottage that I can return to from time to time as i am about my Father’s business.
Why would a human pray for something that is contrary to the Fruits of the Spirit of Meek and Humble, Temperance, Longsuffering? Wealth is the enemy of these things. I could see praying for wealth, if all of that wealth gained was given away to feed or help God’s people. To pour so much of the gained wealth into administration and promotion efforts to gain more wealth, and to build huge mansions and glorify one’s existence here on earth is not of God. It is definitely not how John the Baptist, my hero, chose to live.
I would be so much more impressed if I saw that those promoting pimping out my Lord for wealth, were living in small humble houses where the average man lives, or even smaller. Wow! What a statement that would be. Humans would flock to those leaders…wanting to know who their God was. Christianity would be spread all over the world. Wow, the vision of that!
I fear for them. I fear in much the same way the antichrist will, when He is backed by his dark angels and demons, seduce the many believers, along with the peoples of the world by offering them their heart’s desire. We so have to be aware of where are true heart’s desire is focused.
I am so sad (the mourning type of sad) this morning because of what God has revealed to me in this article on praying for financial wealth. It is of Babylon. God’s people need to get out of it.
Tobie Luke 10:19 God has given us authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to OVERCOME ALL THE POWER OF THE ENEMY, NOTHING WILL HARM US. Ephesians 1:22 says And put all things under His (Christ’s) feet and gave Him (Christ) to be be the head over all things to the church (you and I are the church or part of the church) (23) Which is His (Christ’s) body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. Christ is the head of the church and the church is His body.How then can one separate the head from its body? Your head and your body are one.Christ the Head of the church transferred that authority to His body the church. There are so many scriptures supporting this. So many Tobie! Just read Ephesians 1 and get the full picture of what God has done for you. Therefore your statement suggesting that only Christ has that dominion are not supported by any scriptures in the new testment. Anyway the point is lets preach the word Tobie, instead of running down other ministries. Thousands are dying without Christ while we debate who has the correct doctrines.Thats not what Christ commissioned us to do! Preach the word and win the lost for the Christ! The gospel is being carried by broken vessels, non is perfect, neverthless the gospel is preached. Thats what matters.The imperfect will be addressed when the perfect finally arrives.
Having seen the pain and broken faith of those who believed this lie when they have given from their meager resources EXPECTING their “gift” to be multiplied and it hasn’t happened, I cannot but pray that those who ARE taken in by it will have their spiritual eyes opened! One very well-known prosperity leader in Australia even claimed that Jesus stayed in all the best hotels and ate at the best restaurants…..as if these existed then and where in the accounts of the LORD’s life on earth did it recount this? Why does the church leave itself open for those who are unbelievers to call us hypocrites, when even THEY know this is not true…… What happens to those in Africa living in poverty that we can only imagine, when they find that they have been strung a web of lies?…..what happens to their faith in God? – is it destroyed? Do they curse God, and shake their fists at Him when they find that these “men of God” have deceived them and taken the pitiful amount of money they had? May God intervene and save these souls from the terrible lies of the enemy and expose these false prophets for what they are!
We are not God and we cannot force anyone to preach it the way we see it. We cannot “legislate” righteousness, nor force anyone to do what we think is right….whether it is right or not. We try to do it in governments and it has not worked. We cannot judge hearts…nor can we change hearts, and though we judge “fruits” and doctrines, even doctrines vary and vary from one of us to another. We argue among us the scriptures. We should not be “publicly” doing this! And most of them are not real sheep of God anyway, but wolves in sheep clothing. God does not want us to “police” the doctrines of these strange men for it causes endless controversies among us, and surely not do it before sinners.
We should never lump all the preachers together! Prosperity is indeed in the bible……He will meet our every need and He wants to bless us ABUNDANTLY! In Deut 28 God said how He was disappointed with Israel for; 47. Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all “THINGS”(I did not write it, He did!)…….AND “those who come to Him must believe that He is and that He is a REWARDER of those who diligently seek Him.”
And no, He did not talk about making us rich as we think of rich, but rich as HE sees rich…….in soul and body and in every area of our lives…..HAVING EVERY NEED MET AND heart peace!
Truthfully many do not have this because they do NOT believe it and I know our God is grieved forI He wants to bless and multiply us! Deut 28 talks about the BLESSINGS HE GIVES THOSE WHO “HARKEN DILIGENTLY TO OBSERVE AND DO ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK.” Very clear that IF we obey, and obey carefully and believe His word……these blessings shall come upon those who BELIEVE AND OBEY!
This is what Kenneth Hagin taught over and over and over and I learned well, and have eaten the fruit of it all these years and he ALSO taught us to be pure and clean before God!! over and over he taught THAT TOO! I was there and I HEARD him!
In the ’70′s, I read and listened to ‘Papa’ Hagan with the utmost interest. Perfect? No. His love of Jesus Christ? Yes. I will always remember him as a ‘man of God’.
Big problem for Faith preachers, Healing preachers, Prosperity preachers, Miracle preachers, Prophecsy, etc., They are not teaching the full-gospel message of Jesus Christ our Lord and Master. The full gospel of Jesus Christ is worth preaching in season and out…not just pockets of it. By using only 1 subject as a Bible ministry, watch out, error creeps in bit by bit. What Kenneth Hagan preached was often ‘re-interrpreted’ by his devotees…in that: A Man’s Mind will over-adjust to what the Spirit is saying. How human and flawed. You can sit five people together and all five will hear something different in a message.
But don’t loose hope friends and loved ones, “God’s word does not come back void!” The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not Want.
Since when does man tell God when and how to reward?
I have read each and every post on the message “History of the Prosperity Gospel”, and in all except two the only thing I read was “Christians” tearing down others whom they just knew were wrong. After reading through the post I am very, disappointed. I am not writing this post in support or opposition to the “Prosperity Gospel”, but in hopes of pricking the hearts of those who seem to feel it is necessary to directly condemn Ministries or Ministers.
Here are some of the scriptures that the Lord has brought to my remembrance as I read the various post. I have Para-phrased them and intentionally left off the Scripture reference in hopes that you would search them out:
1.“You who are without sin, cast the first stone”
2.“Remove the log from your eye, before trying to remove the speck from you brothers’”
3.“If one has a problem with his brother first go to him, if he will not receive you then go again with another brother, if that is not received then bring it before the congregation
4.“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”
I would hope that we would center on the “Doctrine of Christ” as our sure foundation, and quit performing spiritual “hari-kari”. I will be the first to agree that there is a preponderance of false teaching and doctrines of demons being spewed forth in writing, as well as on the air-ways. We need to back off and regroup and follow what the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy:
2nd Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
I read nothing about tearing down or attacking those who are teaching the false teaching or doctrines, only that we are to try and reveal to those who have been deceived the truth, and then it is up to them to recover themselves, and ONLY if God allows them to. I hope that I have not offended anyone, but I feel we are far too busy going down rabbit trails instead of seeking the straight and narrow path that Jesus himself said there would be few that find.
As someone who has studied church history and Pentecostal history, I would say that the Wiki article above is a very fair and accurate history overall. I have personally grown up with Pentecostalism, so it is not hard to recall what has taken place. It is an accurate and important article. That is why I posted it.
As for the people who claim that we should not be bringing these men to account, and that we should just leave them alone to wreak more destruction in the Body of Christ – that is directly against what the Bible tells us to do. The Bible tells us to expose wolves and covetous manipulators who are ravaging the sheep. That is part of our job. But today many are too addicted to the religion of “being nice” to actually do what the Bible tells us to do with these people.
To me, the worldwide Body of Christ is falling into utmost apostasy and deception – and a big part of it is this Mammon-seeking doctrine – which is now spreading out of control right through the Third World.
Until we deal with it, the church is a tainted mess for all the world to see. Even secular people can see that all this “money business” is so unchristlike and so utterly WRONG. It is the opposite of Jesus.
Bless you all!
Andrew Strom.
On a personal note, I was born-again in the context of a prosperity “gospel” church. I don’t think I ever heard the true gospel clearly presented. Noone ever told me, or any new comer for that matter, that we had to repent of our sins and come to the Lord trusting in His righteousness for the atoning of our sins. I think I first heard the gospel thru the teachings of John Mac Arthur, Ray Comfort or some other preacher I heard on the Internet. Or, like someone else said, I read it on the Bible, believed and repented.
The Lord took me out of that church in less than 2 years. In the end, I was so sick of that kind of teaching I couldn’t take it any more. Knowing it first hand gave me an gutter instinct dislike for any preacher with a man-centered orientation and any message that sounded too positive. (Before coming to Christ, I was exposed to New Age teaching for a few years, and it was terrifying to see how many similarities there are between the two movements!)
It’s true that some of us may criticize out of arrogance and judgmentalism. But that doesn’t mean that the arguments against these doctrines are not serious. Yes, love is very important, but love without truth is not love at all! Love means telling the truth whatever it takes. People may get offended and hurt in the process (sometimes it is inevitable) but if that saves a soul from hell, it’s always worth it.
To those who criticize articles such as these and people who denounce these excesses, I would say, didn’t Jesus get angry with the money changers in the temple? Didn’t He denounce, in the strongest possible language without committing sin, the hypocrisy of those who CLAIMED to know God and believe themselves to be great teachers, knowledgeable in Torah and were in fact blind leading the blind?
Jesus was absolutely clear about this: Why do you call me Lord Lord and do not do what I say? Why do you claim to be my disciples when in fact you’re workers of iniquity? He said MANY of those who would claim to have done great things in His name would be in fact false. (Incidentally, perhaps some of the “apologists” who are sound in doctrine are self-righteous sons of the devil too. I think the warning goes to all of us.)
Ultimately, only God knows the ultimate destination of people who preach these false doctrines. Perhaps He will have mercy of them and grant them repentance, as He apparently did with Kenneth Hagin. We’ll only know for sure in Heaven. And we cannot know for sure the motivation of the heart of people who are preaching these false gospels. Many are honestly persuaded that prosperity teaching is Biblical. I believe there are different degrees of this error. Not all of it is downright heresy.
But what I do believe we must do is denounce the teachings which are obviously not Biblical. Even a superficial reading of the New Testament will make it clear that the emphasis is on the spiritual/eternal blessings we receive when coming to Christ and not the temporal ones. In fact, there are many many warnings about covetousness/greed which is equated to idolatry by Jesus and the apostles. Paul expounded a lot on the virtue of contentment. It’s not the same as making vows of poverty… It means being satisfied with whatever financial blessing you receive from God, and using as much as you can to bless others. John said if you have material prosperity and you close your heart not to see your brother’s need and help, how can you say the love of Christ is in you? (And there are many brothers and sisters in need, not only in Africa but everywhere, including our congregations!)
What I believe we see here is the spirit of this age working in many of us… a spirit of false tolerance. We’re not supposed to tolerate evil and watch ravenous wolves (false teachers) as they devour the sheep. If we have understood this doctrines to be poisonous, we’re supposed to tell people not to swallow the poison! It’s a matter of life or death! We’re not arguing over whether women should wear a head covering or any minor non-issue. We’re fighting against a bunch of people who, knowingly or not, are redefining the GOSPEL, which is the very root of our faith.
Redefine the glorious Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and people go to hell, all the way thinking they are heaven-bound. No, we’re not supposed to be tolerant about that!
Yes, let’s be respectful and loving with each other. Let’s try to be united. But unity doesn’t come at the expense of truth. Without truth, what we’re united to is Babylon. And we’ve been clearly warned to flee from Babylon, not run to it.
Watch out… Because I believe these movements will tend to converge in the one world false religion that will gladly receive the antichrist when he comes.
When we listen to a sermon, where ever it may be, our Holy Spirit brings to us what we need. That is why each can hear something that the other didn’t. God blesses abundantly, yes He does, but that abundance does not always occur here on earth, nor in the manner that humans perceive “abundance”….but in our transformed bodies….that gift which all Believers will have. And….there are no riches, or joys, or abundance on this earth that can even compare to that body….and it is already supplied…waiting for us!
Why did God say that the least of these here on earth will be the greatest in Heaven? Why did God speak to our seeking those treasures that would be stored in Heaven?
I assume the “least” are those who have less than others in material possessions, probably have less prestige and honor, and fame also. That begger on the streets who shares his last morsel with another is my vision of one of the least. There is a time coming which God provides when many can show that they are amongst the “least”. God is a true Provider of our needs……not our wants.
God is not greived by our lack of possessions and abundance, nor is He grieved that we don’t pray for them. He is grieved by our lack of spiritual abundance, our lack of love towards others, our lack of belief in Jesus Christ, our selfishness, our pride, our lack of knowledge about Him. God is grieved by:
Romans 1:28-32= “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; Being filled with all
unrighteousness,
sexual immorality,
wickedness,
covetousness,
maliciousness;
full of envy,
murder,
strife,
deceit,
evil-mindedness;
they are whisperers,
backbiters,
haters of God,
violent,
proud,
boasters,
inventors of evil things,
disobedient to parents,
undiscerning,
untrustworthy,
unloving,
unforgiving,
unmerciful;
who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death,
(and then comes the real kicker….just about the time we are thinking, ok, ok, I am pretty good on all those things….;-)
not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.”
To me this means, that if we don’t stand up and reprove those doing such things, even within our own brethren, we are guilty and will get the same judgment….for seeing such things and not reproving them. (reprove being the opposite of approve.) I think we can blame the state of our country and our citizens minds on the fact that those with the standard of God stopped standing up for those standards a long time ago. The dragon got into the schools, media, churches, homes, and government, and turned tolerance and love into a sin.
I will never pray for my abundance, but that the eyes of all will be opened to the true nature of good and evil as God sees it….not as man see it. That all will understand the blessings of God as God sees them not as man perceives them. What man perceives as a blessing could very well be a snare of the dragon.
I have been in ministry 30 years and I know this spiritual principal is true. Many have tried to twist it for their own vain glory but that does not mean God’s Word does not mean what it say’s. The devil tries to keep God’s mysteries a secret because he knows how powerful they are. People do not mind to hear the stories about Noah or Samson but very few will sacrifice their time to fast – pray – and research God’s Word for themselves. Those who mock the spiritual pioneers and then kick them when they fall down in their sins have become like a spectator watching someone else trying to find their place in God. Everyone falls when they take their eyes off Jesus! We ask God for resources to build His Kingdom through prayers of faith. It is not evil to use money for God’s work – itis a blessing for everyone. We ask Him to heal our bodies, anoint us to preach and sing and to fill our bank accounts so we can minister resources to those in need. Father is waiting for us to grow up so that He can use as a channel to release His resources to the world but if our petitions are done with carnal motives – it is sin. If we have developed our faith through His Word which IS HIS WILL and worshipping Him for who He is, then He is more than happy to bless us. Many things are conditional such as our obedience, our maturity and the understanding of His wisdom and revelation, but do not discredit the the literal meaning of the scriptures. God wants us to move and abide in the miracle realm of His divine reality but most Christians are lazy babies that are jealous that someone is going to get fanatical or receive more than they have. Those who do not comprehend faith will never understand God’s Word. Every word we speak is changing the atmosphere and having an impact on our life. Those who deny this absolute truth are still crawling around in the play pen. Mark 11:24 is for spiritual grown-ups that have dedicated their life to live in His presence.
Paul; you gave scripture:
1.“You who are without sin, cast the first stone”
In the above, Christ was referring to those who would execute the punishment. Not that we should not point out possible wrong actions. One cannot grow if they only hear praise and affirmations. Such is what is wrong with the children now growing up within the United States.
2.“Remove the log from your eye, before trying to remove the speck from you brothers’”
The above refers to a condition that would cause blindness in discernment…..not that we are not supposed to speak out. How do we grow in correctness if we do not speak out any error that may be contained within us….so that others can correct us?
3.“If one has a problem with his brother first go to him, if he will not receive you then go again with another brother, if that is not received then bring it before the congregation
The above was all about a definite transgression upon one. That one was supposed to go first and try to straighten it out with the one who caused it…if even worth worrying about. Than if no resolution, to seek another brethren with the same standards as you and the perpetrator, and if that doesn’t work to go to the entire congregation unto which you have submitted yourself to. In fact….this one actually encourages one not to be silent.
4.“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”
Not sure why you quoted this above one. None of us are perfect and won’t be until we are transformed….but we must not let that stop our forward progress, or let our imperfection keep us from being tended in the garden, or doing the tending in the garden.
Andrew your comment was right on. One wonders how God will pull together a glorious church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, out of the mess that is the modern day church…..but He is God, and I’m sure He can do it. Thanks for posting this. Most charismatic teaching today is tainted by one version or another of the prosperity gospel. Classic Christian truth seems to be all but lost in this generation, so this needs to be exposed.
Andrew,
As someone who was caught up in the WOF teaching of Kenneth Copeland for some time I can agree with your statement that the “Wiki article above is a very fair and accurate history overall”.
Reading through the comments after the article I am deeply saddened to see how many people contributing here have clearly fallen for the prosperity doctrines and cling to them.
Yes, one of the greatest problems with the “gimme , gimeee, gimee Gospel” Yes, Abba wants HIS children to prosper, but it is a by-product of obedience to His word, His commandments, His statutes, and His law (Heb – Torah), the half truth that is preached it always takes the part of the blessing/prosperity and divorces or separates it from obedience to His word, His commandments, His statutes, and His law (Heb – Torah).
Like far to often the message is ripped out of context. a part of a verse and a whole doctrine is built. The hyper-focus is on the gift rather than the giver of the gift. In a magical incantation way – of vain repetitions to claim it along with the “$EED” I am not denying the biblical law of sowing and reaping. Yes. that will endure as long as heaven and earth endures along with the rest of His Law.
This is a perfect example this message is declared many, many times in the word. Just one of many, many scriptures that is taken out of context. The KEY being vs 10 WHEN:
Deut 6:24 That you may prosper
Deut 30::9 The LORD your God will make you abundantly prosperous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your cattle and in the fruit of your ground. For the LORD will again take delight in prospering you, as he took delight in your fathers, 10 WHEN you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Torah, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
A lot of times when you read the word Prosper in the bible the Hebrew word that was translated as “propser(ity)” is the word Shalom or peace ( not a fat bank account).
Here is some food for thought what happens if you plant 50# of seed in a space that is 1′ x’1 will anything grow at all? How many of these “ministries” (I use that term loosely) are 1′ x 1′ that had 100′s or 1,000s of pounds of seed “sown” into that 1′ x 1′ ministry space ( you might get a one fold return if the seed can find soil, if that seed in not choked out by the other “seed”).
What a Wise and Awesome Creator that we serve, the greatest economic system that exists, is found in the Torah, with the Sabbath Years and the Jubilee years, to prevent perpetual and generational poverty, the problems and excess and abuses and fall-out the good, the bad, the ugly of the ism of “capitalism” (and the other economic”- isms”), are eliminated. It is truly amazing. Part of Loving God and our neighbor as yourself.
I believe in one world government and one world religion, but that will be under the King of kings, Lord of lords –Jesus the Messiah!
William Holand, Jr.;
I agree with what you say, except for the dragon has no power to keep any of God’s knowledge in the dark. The LIGHT dispells all dark.
I also must say that ALL things that happen to us in this Restoration prison that we are in are not caused by God. Some are from our own efforts, some things come from man, and some things are from the dragon, and some things happen because of the curse that we put upon the earth when we disobeyed in Eden. We must not always assume that our abundance is from God….especially if that abundance is distracting in any way from our walk, or the walk of others. I also repeat, that all this wealth that is collected by the churches would be such a glory if those who were collecting it lived modestly in a cottage, and gave it all to feed God’s people or to reach them with Christ’s message. People would flock to that type of ministry. I used to tell the Jehovah Witnesses that if they would go door to door asking if there was any help that they could do for the one within the door that was opened at their knock,…and not anything else…. that people would want to know who their God was that caused them to act in such a way.
Mark 11:22-And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23-For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24-Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
You will noticed that Jesus said, “these things shall come to pass”…which means that these things may not happen “now”, tho they can…(“shall” is a future word)….but will happen before the Mystery of Christ’s Task is completed, and according to His Will. Many of the things that we pray for do not occur in our time zone but in God’s. Those who have perfect faith and endure until the end will truly be able to do all these things, all the time, when they are transformed. Some of the things I prayed as a child were answered when i was an adult. I also believe that our prayers can go backwards….because as Believers we are now in God’s time zone spiritually, and we are eternal.
Also…what we pray for must be in God’s Will because He sees what we cannot and knows everything. We must be careful how we define faith….it is not gotten by study….but by the simplicity of a child’s mind who trust’s his Father.
You are so correct about there being power in the word. We are children of God, and He spoke the entire existence into being with one word. We must be quick to ask forgiveness when we trespass. It is this “power” that causes me to hold the Lord in Awe and fear, that we don’t trespass against Him.
I am sure you are not diminishing the faith of those who have not seen the results of their prayers….or saying that those who get blessed with wealth have more faith than others? Or, that the choices of blessings is wealth? If one is blessed with wealth that they are obviously doing something right?
The word of God is quite clear on this, & I have seen with my own eyes what is happening in the churches concerning money & I am sickened by what I see, it is like a cancer growing out of control yet the false prophets are not stopped,
As a brother in Christ Jesus I pray with fervant desire for the truth of the word to be given so the hearers may be saved & be filled with the holy spirit & the only way that is going to happen is to follow the word, if you want to follow false doctrine then woe be to you.
Those who think the gospel is about “money , money, money” have been listening to the wrong Abba.
Why is the focus of so much of the Church on “Blessing”?
How many of us remember the “prayer of Jabez” focus of the Church? WHy do so many seek avenues or Keys to blessings? Are they struggling or laboring under the Curses of Disobedience to Abba’s Commandments?
Here is a blessing that much of the Church rejects :
Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
Yet Isa 66, states that we will all be worshiping on the Sabbath and on new moons in the Millennium and beyond.
I have walked both paths – and the one that I am on now, I have an abundance of Peace as well as other material blessings that did not flow when I walked on a path that was contrary to His word. Yet is out of Love that I walk in path of our Savior and the Apostles and the Word.. Not out of Legalism.
Grace and Abundant Peace -to you
Jonathan
What payment do i need from Jesus Christ my Lord,he has already paid the highest price ie he took all my sin,& gave me a free pardon to eternal life,what more could i ask for,i deserved to go into the pit of hell.A wicked & adulterous generation seeks ,money & prosperity all they will get is the cross of Jesus Christ(the sign of the Prophet Jonah)its our choice second death or eternal life.
Is not this the choir preach and pontificating TO THE CHOIR? Goodness! Such ripping and shredding like I have never heard. Not a shred of love in most of it, and surely not the word of God. No WONDER OUR WORLD IS SO LOST AND DYING AND GOING TO HELL……we are too busy ripping, shredding each other, and pontificating our doctrine to go and speak and love on the lost and dying. I do not follow Copeland and have not in years, but when I did, I NEVER heard him rip and shred like this. Pharisees are the same as us to do such as this!
Why not go and rip them to their faces? Repeat….WHY NOT GO AND SPEAK THIS TO THEIR FACES?! Why speak such behind their backs and not give them a chance to speak for themselves?? And you say THIS MESS IS BIBLE? Surely NOT the bible I read and follow nor the Christ either. To do this makes YOU no better than them, and maybe a lot worse for WE KNOW BETTER OR SHOULD!
How righteous and holy we think we are to rip others like this. I would NEVER do this to a sinner, let alone to those who call themselves by His name! It is a fearsome thing to witness! How eternally sad!! And you can find any scripture to excuse whatever you want! Hard end days hearts….and no souls will ever be won like this!
Byron From Oklahoma Feb 22nd 2012
@ I believe, when Jesus said we/they would have lands and houses with persecutions , it was fulfilled in acts when people sold their houses and laid the money at the Apostles feet to be distributed to those who had need. And it can still be continuously fulfilled today… Jesus was not saying you will have all of this stuff to prove the Gospel, it was a community/family helping each other and did not care about stuff…
Byron
Greetings
Here is what Jesus said:
Mark 10:29-31 (King James Version)
29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s,
30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
31But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.
I do not see where He is saying to sale all and live in a communal type setting. This practice was carried out in Jerusalem, and I do not believe the whole church practiced it.
If this is the case why do we not practice this today?
I think this whole thing involves the attitude of the heart. I am not endorsing the prosperity gospel because this is encouraging people to make a life in this life.
What I am saying is that I do not believe living in some state of poverty makes a man any closer to God. God does take care of His children.
Concerning the whole teaching of “Faith”. I do see in the four gospels that Jesus was constantly talking to people about their faith.
What has been twisted in this modern day teaching is that men are telling people to believe for cadillac’s, mansions, boats, etc. All the things that minister to the flesh. While they constantly ask for more money for their ministries.
I do have to overcome when I am constantly bombarded with mail from ministers wanting money. I have got dozens of letters in a months time.
As for naming names: Paul mentioned names constantly throughout his writings. I do not see anything wrong with exposing false ministries.
“Is not this the choir preach and pontificating TO THE CHOIR?”
——-
Obviously not considering the number of people who have made comments above in favour of the prosperity message.
And those preachers of that message make sure no one can get close to them to approach them personally about their false teachings. They have made their choice between God and mammon and close their ears to correction.
It is not love to leave a potential brother or sister in error merely for the sake of maintaining the “niceness” of false peace and “unity”.
But there are many who are presently caught up in their teachings who are still able to be rescued.
Joyce,
I think the point is many of these people preaching so much about money (and so little about the true Gospel) while driving new sports cars and SUVs (as we can see in the video on Nigerian prosperity preachers) are not our brothers and sisters.
You’re judging and condemning us who speak against these doctrines… you’re doing the same you’re criticizing in us. The Lord knows our hearts… any person speaking out of self-righteousness and without love will surely be chastened by the Lord. Any of us who is no better than a Pharisee will not enter God’s Kingdom.
I cannot speak for (or against) anyone who has commented on this page. All I can say is people are being deceived by these false versions of the Gospel, and because of this perversion of the Gospel many people look at the “church” and flee!!! The world despises us, not because we preach the foolishness of the Gospel (which is the biblical reason to be despised) but because in some cases it is so apparent that these people are deceivers that we become the laughing stock.
I’m really saddened when people who used to go to church and hear the Lord was going to do this and that, and then they don’t get those promises fulfilled not only stop attending church, but wrongly conclude God is a liar. That’s the issue here.
I really don’t feel any envy or hatred against preachers who are becoming prosperous… I really hope all pastors who have their heart set on the Lord and the preaching of the whole counsel of God will have enough financial resources to finance any God-led endeavor. But it’s sad that many churches increase in size at the expense of watering down the Word of God.
To set things straight: when my husband and I left my former 20,000 people church, we sent a letter to the pastor through our elders, not to rebuke him but to warn him that we believed the doctrine being preached was sort of out of focus. I don’t think he even read it… He continued preaching his motivational “God-wants-to-bless-you” messages, with no Cross, no sacrifice, no self-denial included. I grieve for him, and I have prayed for him and his congregation many times, that they may be truly blessed with spiritual blessings that go so far beyond material riches. I’m really worried about them and I don’t want any of them to be lost. Neither the pastors nor the sheep.
I assure you that I would love to have any of these big guys in front of me and talk about these issues. But do you think they would receive this? First of all, would we be able to reach them, with so many bodyguards and “filters”?
I could expand on everything the Lord taught me in this regard. One verse that kept coming up was,
“They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace”
Because ultimately, you may be promising peace and security, peace and prosperity, health and wealth to people who are still dead in their trespasses and sins. If the person has not truly repented and trusted Christ and Christ alone for his or her salvation, what good is it to give the person strategies on how to “sow a seed and reap results” (assuming that works) if the person may end up gaining the whole world and losing his or her soul?
That’s what really concerns me. No, I’m not better than anyone else, here or in the whole world for that matter. I’m just someone who has been scared enough by certain verses in the Bible not to want ANYONE to end up in the wrong place for eternity. I understand that many people (far too many!) in Christian churches (apostate or not) have a false sense of assurance, convinced they are going to Heaven when they are not, unless they repent and trust Jesus (which is not merely repeating a prayer claiming to be repentant) and Jesus alone for their salvation.
The reason I’m posting my comments is precisely that I believe that false doctrine can and does bring a false sense of assurance. True doctrine confronts us with our sinfulness and our need for a Savior. False doctrine feels good because it appeals to our pride. True doctrine is God-centered. False doctrine is centered on man, his “felt-needs”, etc. True doctrine may hurt and offend but it leads to life. False doctrine kills…
Again, I don’t like spending my time arguing over minor points such as “should women wear a head covering to pray?”. I don’t have a definite answer to many of those minor issues which IMHO, will neither help nor hinder our spiritual progress. But accepting the wrong gospel is anathema to God. Faith and presumption are two different things.
I’m sorry some of you feel offended for what has been said here. I’ve read forums where Christians really did devour each other with criticism and seemed to be more concerned about winning an argument than about winning a soul for Christ or helping in discipling their brothers and sisters. So far, that’s not what I’ve seen here.
Genesis 4.3-4The issue about prosperity has more to do with the nature of the offering as against the one who offers it. Cain and Abal made offerings, one was rejected the other accepted. Why? If God is impartial, why was Cains offering rejected? Cain was not rejected by God, his offering was. Cain however took the rejection personally, we all know the outcome, but do we know the nature of the two offerings. Cain offered up what he worked hard to give, Abal offered the best of that which he had received. Here is a mystery to blessing. Rev 5:12 The Lamb of God is the only acceptable offering that is worthy to receive riches in return, along with power, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing. The works of the Father are to believe upon the Son John 6:28-29. The church is where the nature of God alone receives the blessing, not the nature of man without the Lamb.
The question the church should ask itself, is. What is the nature of our offering? Is it the works of our hands and effort, or is it the Lamb of God, the righteousness on the right hand of the Father who alone is righteousness that comes through our flesh by faith. Rom 9:30-33 the only offering acceptable and recognized in the God Head.
The reason for poverty, sickness, disention and no anointed power in churches is because the Lamb of God is not present and lifted up. The hard question to be asked by everyone who thinks they are a Christian is not, do I know the Lamb of God? But does the Lamb of God know and live in me. As the apostle Paul stated! Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith.
Very well put, Gary. That’s exactly what I was thinking. The point of Matthews 7 is that many among us who are convinced WE’re doing wonderful things for God, may be in fact working for the enemy.
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have WE not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
I believe the mark of a believer is humility, admitting ANY good work we ever do (including tithing and offerings) is ultimately not done by us, but by grace in us. Grace giving us conviction, exhortation, encouragement, reproof. God working in us both the desire to do good and the actual doing it.
The danger of these doctrines is that people who become prosperous materially may conclude that the Lord is blessing them and approving of their lifestyle when in fact He may be very not pleased with them. And the people who don’t prosper materially may think the Gospel doesn’t “work” for them, or it’s a lie, so God doesn’t exist or God has deserted them.
The true Gospel says,
Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
I rejoice in knowing I’m accepted in the Beloved, despite my many sins and shortcomings. I rejoice in knowing that here on Earth, I will suffer many afflictions but Jesus has overcome the world. I rejoice not in the size of my bank account (which is pretty small, because I live in Argentina and material abundance has not come my way) but in the abundance of our Father’s heart and His love for me. And I rejoice in our Father’s developing the character of Christ through so many trials and tests on my faith. And also rejoice seeing many brothers and sisters who are of the same mind, who have understood that for us to live we first have to die, that we must surrender our lives and deny ourselves every day and follow Jesus.
Yes, the hour is late. Apostasy and confusion is great among the church. But I also see many brothers and sisters coming to the same conclusions and leaving these churches that don’t preach the Gospel. I see many really hungry for truth, for genuine knowledge of the Lord, for much more than just a nice experience. Many have not bowed their knee before Baal. Many refuse to compromise for the sake of man-centered unity. I may be wrong but I believe Jesus wants us to contend for the truth, not in a critical and judgmental manner, of course, but as people who are truly passionate to see God glorified in the Church.
Please read to the end: Important
“As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God”. My advice is that we should allow the Spirit of God to guide us in all we do and say, including passing comments on others’ behavour, teachings, etc. Let us pray for the erring brothers and sisters that God will restore them. Let us expose lies and wrong teachings, and pray for genuine apostolic revival in this present age.
BUT ONE THING that saddens my heart is the way people make comments on Africa. Many see Africa as a jungle of illnesses and poverty. One of the requirements of true chrstians is telling of truths and facts. A lot of people get to africa and find out that africa is not as ugly as presented by their leaders (political leaders, media, etc). So, why should ministers of God also join them in painting africa as a jungle of evils? 65 % of malnourished children (with kwarshiorkor and marasmus) live in South-East Asia and not Africa. There are more poor people in South-East Asia than in Africa, but people, including some christian leaders would only be talking of africa, africa, africa. Some would say funny things like: They don’t wear clothes in Africa, they don’t use shoes in Africa, they use bicycles to go to schools in africa, etc etc. Please, let christians find the facts before joining these people that are telling lies. Remember what the Book of Revelation says about ALL LIARS.
There are genuine conservative ministers of God in Africa, whose focus and teachings are on holiness, although there are “prosperity preachers” also. There are christians in Africa who have not lost focus of the Ancient landmark. While I will not condemn anybody for his teachings and or comments (but I strongly condemn sin, apostasy and wrong doctrines), I will admmonish everyone to read Romans 13: 11-14. The Lord’s coming is at hand, let’s get prepared.
ANDREW: Thank you for two things:
First I thank you making sure of the facts of this article before posting it.
Secondly, I thank you for posting it. I was fairly familiar with the “properity” error from the 1960′s on but did not know some of its history prior to that. Thank you for fleshing out some of my knowledge on the subject.
God bless,
Wayne
What strikes me about the prosperity gospel is the contrast to orgainizations like Gospel for Asia. GFA will support a full-time missionary for $1,800 a YEAR. And these are people who are willing to figuratively and literally dig their own grave before they go into a village of Hindus or Muslims teaching of Jesus Christ. They aren’t seeking to draw christians from another church or another televangelist to support them. They are truly going after the lost in the spiritually darkest parts of the world.
On Judgement Day, I wonder who will get the greatest rewards? Will it be Oral Roberts or Hinn or another televangelist -or- will it be one of the nameless missionaries in India or Africa or in a Muslim country who fearlessly taught of Jesus Christ despite the fierce opposition (all to often causing them to lose their lives)???
What worries (bad choice of word that), me is that Satan already appears to have his replacement for these prosperity leaders in the form of the very worst false prophets/teachers ie Rick Joyner and Co who arnt into prosperity themselves but appear to me to also be against it.
Has anyone noticed how in “The Final Quest” the dead evangelist whose ministry Joyner calls us back to sounds exactly like William Branham, a very deceived man whose ministry was superceded by the prosperity preachers. I believe that there is a devilish plan in there somewhere with Satan having some awareness that the prosperity preachers are going to fall so creating a replacement in advance.
Joyners Mothers and Fathers day celebrations on the God Channel each year are also preparing the way and calling us to honour departed healing ministers of the era before the propserity gospel too, (as the Catholics look toward the departed saints- and Joyner is a high ranking leader within the Catholic Order of the Knights of Maltano less which merged in the past with the Knights Templer).
When one area of false teaching falls as will the propsperity movemnet, then without a massive revival to replace it in the west, another form of false teaching will fill the vacume left.
Please let’ pray for Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani in Iran. Let’s pray that God will deliver him from the jaw of death that he is facing right now. Let us call on the Lord that delivered Daniel from the Prince of Persia and the Persians of then to deliver Pastor Youcef from the plot of the persians of today (the Iranian muslims).
And let’s pray for true apostolic revival across churches all over the world. When true revivals sweep across churches and nations, self-centered and financial gain-inspired sermons would fade away.
Jesus is the King of Kings and the 3 Wise Men brought Him Gifts (Financial Riches), “And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down , and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh”
we are also Son’s of God and Joint Heirs with Christ and can receive from men in the same way. God uses people to bless people financially and that in ‘itself’ is not evil.
You say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked…
There are many things I would like to say. This includes an in depth teaching on the subject. But for brevity’s sake I would like to share the following thoughts:
1. I am still waiting for a giving movement that should of followed the prosperity movement.
2. The word of God is the seed, not money.
3. Those at the top of the authority chain had the least (ie Peter: Silver and Gold have I none……).
4. I am also waiting for the leaders in the prosperity movement to apologize to the rest of the church for not focusing on what it should be and causing others to do so also thus leading them to stray (The focus should be Jesus-Hebrews 12:1-2).
Brother Ken
Amen Brother Andrew.!Lets pray God puts an end to the prosperity gospel.I think the coming economic collapse will mean the end of that false gospel and will open the door for the true Gospel that was once delivered to the Saints.
Praise the Lord.The very things Satan tempted the Lord with have been received by so many today.
I would like to give the prosperity preachers the opportunity to reap a bountiful financial harvest.
I am more than willing to receive their financial “seed” so they can reap 100 fold increase on what they give. If what they preach is true they would then be more than able to finance their ministries when they receive that 100 fold blessing from the Lord.
Any money (sorry SEED) sent to me will not be stored up for my own benefit. It will be given to those in need through a reputable, Jesus-centred Christian ministry.
Gostaria que algum Irmão importante no Evangelho, prega-se claramente sobre os perigos da teologia da prosperidade e o apego as riquezas!!!
Fize-se Isso em canal Aberto em rede mundial de Televisão repassado ao mundo, em especial, aos crentes em Deus por Jesus Cristo.
Greetings to believers around the globe in Jesus’ name. Firstly thank you Andrew for your ministry. It has helped bring some much needed ‘light’ into my life. I am sure that you, just like me are an imperfect child of God on the pilgramage. But I don’t agree with with the people who have commented and said that you are sinning by criticizing false doctrine, it needs to be brought into the light.
I became a believer in 1993 at the age of 30. My husband wasn’t enthusiastic about my decision to follow Jesus and took another 9 years to make that wonderful decision. A result of that in my life I went to church on my own, studied the bible on my own and subsequantly, I became deceived. Not just about prosperity but about many things relating to the Bible, Faith, Healing etc.
Earlier this year God brought a complete stranger across our paths (a German in Estonia) and through him God opened my eyes to many things I had accepted as ‘truth’ just because the pastor had preached it or because our denomination endorsed it. More fool me. I have repented for my lazy approach to seeking truth from God through His Word.
I am so thankful to God for His grace in protecting me from many things over the years and for His forgiveness. I agree with the comments of others who have said many of these high profile preachers are difficult if not impossible to contact. I took a word of correction to my Pastor a few years ago and he congratulated me on how brave I was to bring it to him. Our church is one if not the biggest in our city. I knew this correction was from God my pastor didn’t receive it and the word God gave me was ‘stop treating him like the Senior Pastor! he is just a man’.
It is a shame he was not more approachable as many of these popular preachers are. They see themselves above correction. Because I am just a Mum & Wife and not a recognised “leader” in our church he wouldn’t hear the word maybe if God had brought the word through a ‘big name’ in our church movement he may have listened. But Gods ways are higher than our ways. My cry is that many would seek God through His Word not preaching that makes us feel good.
Only preaching that leads to repentance.
Blessings on you who knows the truth and sets you free.
And the preacher said, Show me the money! There are some comic videos on You Tube making fun of our prosperity preachers. The world does not know the differance between the prosperity preacher or the true blue preacher. We are all the same to the world which puts a bad light on the church of Christ.
Been reading through all this and really there is no question that there is a big problem. Just for the record I do have a rags to riches testimony but it definitely did not come through the prosperity teachings.
Yes I am one of those that went from living with a family of five out the back of a 1989 van three years ago to living in a four bedroomed double story house on twenty one acres of land all paid for with money in pocket to last for the year. Full insurance the works. When the world was up I was down as the world goes down I came up.
But I am very against the prosperity teachings, they are 100% wrong. Fact is I would still be serving the Lord even if there was no money and in many ways the money is a hindrance but it does give me more time to serve the Lord.
THE REAL PROBLEM HERE IS THAT PEOPLE THINK OF PROSPERITY AS DEFINED BY THE WORLD SYSTEM. PROSPERITY TO THEM IS COLD HARD CASH. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TRANSFORMED BY THE RENEWING OF THEIR MINDS AND STILL HOLD TO THE CARNAL VALUE SYSTEMS.
The gifts of the spirit are a gift from God. They are worth more than gold. Until people become God orientated more than self orientated there will be no gifts or solid provisions. Simple as that. What matters to God is way more important than what matters to ourselves. We look out for the things of God first and then God will provide for us according to our needs and what kind of work he has for us.
Now I agree that pointing to fallen preachers all the time does not help matters but what I find here is that no one has pointed to the right way instead of all the faults in modern doctrine.
The other day the Lord sent me a link to a forum with the instruction to post an article on the testing of the spirit. I obeyed and signed up on the forum and made one post. An old article I wrote some time back on the testing of the spirit as laid out here.
Everything was perfectly scriptural but after that one post I was immediately suspended and a couple of days later was out of there and the single post removed. Yes that was a pastors forum.
Apparently the post was not for the forum admin or moderators, it was for one single person who was passing through at that particular time who was searching. The whole exercise was for that one person only. The fact is people are playing the religious game. They think they are serving the Lord but on their terms, when the Lord does move in their midst and sends one of his servants they get stoned and cast out. All that remains is a witness against them when the Lord returns.
This is what the real saints are working against. The whole argument about the correctness of the prosperity doctrine here shows only one thing. The motives and belief structure in our modern church body. We want God, the Power that brought into being the entire universe and all that is therein, to bless us with money to spend on ourselves in pursuit of our very short vein and otherwise unproductive little lives. You have to be kidding me!
God is the God of creation. He works though his creation. Money as in cash is a man made concept as in a unit of exchange. God is not going to forge our currencies, they do not belong to his creation. When he blesses us and prospers us it is through his creation.
When he made the covenant with his nation Israel he never said that he would be their servant. He said that if they served him and kept his statutes and laws he would bless them through the work of their hands. He would make the rain come at the right times and that their flocks would multiply and the vine give its increase etc.
Why is it that this is so hard for the saints to grasp. Why do the modern saints think that they can use Almighty God to gain the worlds false blessings when friendship with the world is enmity towards God.
Look the word says they would know us because we have LOVE ON FOR ANOTHER not money or material wealth. We need a LOVE MOVEMENT. SO look past all of the immature thinking and preaching and love one another. The man without GOD is NOT LOOKING FOR MONEY BECAUSE THAT WILL NOT FIX HIS PROBLEM HE NEEDS JESUS,So lets all get on down the road from the infant stuff and go all the way to maturity in Christ. And be their to help the ones coming out of the deception.
larry beck wrote: We need a LOVE MOVEMENT. SO look past all of the immature thinking and preaching and love one another.
I think we already have this in America its called;
Forget about the Bible and please don’t mention the word sin in church, and doctrine is divisive.
The new phrase is, they are morally challenged, so let’s love them and don’t ask any questions. :)
The love churches I am aware of don’t like Bible doctrine. It offends so many and lacks “love”.
‘To whom so ever God is speaking’
I am quoting two verses from the Proverbs below. Just ponder over those verses for a while.
• Do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him. – Proverbs 26:4
• Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes. – Proverbs 26:5
What do we gather from it? Does it sound contradictory? Yes! But there is deep seated wisdom within those verses. We are called to exercise discernment of time and judgment to make good of it. Scripture says, ‘…..And a wise man’s heart discerns both: time and judgment.’ – Ecclesiastes 8:5
We need discernment from God and must be led by His Spirit to deal with various situations we encounter. We cannot depend on set formulae, as people of the world does. We depend on the leading and guidance of His Spirit. Some times God will lead us to confront the people/ministry, and at others times He will require us to pray about it. Let me illustrate: A few months back, my brother asked me to read a book on how to develop a ‘Super Power Memory’. I patiently listened to him and did not give my opinion, as to whether I agree to it or not. He kept pressurizing me, and I held my patience knowing full well his heart and intension, that he loves me and wants to bless me. About two months later to that conversation, God gave me the peace and the courage to speak up plainly my mind to him, and so I told him that I don’t drink from strange wells, but fully depend on God for all that I need (explaining to him in detail the ‘why’ of it). To which my brother replied, “If you had said these words two months back, I would not have agreed with your views; but for the last two weeks God has been dealing with me and I’m able to accept what you say.”
There is a time and place for everything under the sun. And everything works out well, when done in God’s way and in His timing. There is another incident that happened a long time back, where I acted out of my flesh and was reproved of God. I tried correcting a pastor in love, but he was offended. Now my intent was good and what I said to him was true, BUT the way I did it was wrong. When I sought God, I was asked, “Did I tell you to confront him?” God said, “You should not go out in haste. You seek My will concerning everything before you say or do anything, and then you will succeed and find favor”. God lead me to the following Scriptures:
• For you shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel will be your rear guard. – Isaiah 52:12
• The Lord has given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak; a word in season to him who is weary. He awakens me morning by morning; He awakens my ear to hear as the learned. – Isaiah 50:4
Concerning all the wickedness that we see around, I will quote from Isaiah 52:11,
• Depart! Depart! Go out from there, touch no unclean thing; go out from the midst of her, be clean, you who bear the vessels of the Lord.
In Christ,
Sheeja
I’m blessed and humbled by the voices speaking Godly wisdom on this site, some may think it is super-spiritual but I just call it a blessing. Even the times when I don’t yet understand all that is being spoken, when I recognize HIS voice I am content.
No man can serve two masters, either he will love the one and hate the other or hate the one and love the other. It’s very obvious to everyone on the outside of it (even to the unsaved) which one is loved by the prosperity movement. Though it’s much harder to see it from the inside – the old “can’t see the forest for the trees” saying comes to mind. The common denominator of all these problematic gospels seems to be the sheep feeding on the words of man instead of the words of God. Man coming between God and His people – clergy-laity division.
How much of this has to do with the prayer life.
Network Marketing groups and self improvement motivational speakers are all into visualization for what they want. Center on what you want, visualize it, and it will come to pass.
This whole thing is straight out of eastern mysticism, new age type stuff.
The problem I see is that Christians have meanings for the words focus, meditation, prayer, visions that mean totally different things in the new age movement.
Christians assume it is all the same, but they are vastly different. And because most churches are not talking about any of it, some in their congregations are applying this to their lives…and many pastors dont even know it!
Worse yet, they don’t believe that it is happening on their watch. The fear is they don’t want to “focus” on the kingdom of Satan and cause someone to become curious, deceived, and led astray. The idea is
that they would rather show the truth, and then the false is easily identified. That type of thinking is leading more and more off track from what I see. Seems that we should know both in order to spot the false. But these pastors are skipping down the lane thinking all will be well if they give their congregations the flavor of the month theme sermonette once a week. They would rather just say a person is living in fear of demons who does show where the kingdom of Satan is making inroads into the Body.
If you think this movement is bad, hang onto your hat. It is only the first rung of the things seen in the occult. Like it or not, in order to understand what is going on with the Church in the West is to know the steps of “spirituality” in the new age/occult stuff. Then once that is understood, the Lord will show how to pray against it.
Sheeja,
Your brother has a wonderful and wise sister.
“I don’t drink from strange wells”
Yet if we are of the Lord then out of our mouths should come forth living waters.
If Yeshua is our head then we have a super power memory, as scripture says that the Holy Spirit will bring things to our remembrance.
The wine/understanding with which we take things in will show forth its fruit and leave us reeling as drunken/polluted or sober/clean.
The scriptures speak of the prosperity of the soul, and yet even this is attacked with someone saying some are super spiritual.
A friend of mine sent to me a profound understanding of what God’s definition of evangelism and witnessing is.
In 1Peter 2:9-12. A people for God’s own POSSESSION, that you may proclaim the EXCELLENCIES OF HIM, who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
Those that hear of “His excellencies” will have far more a desire to become His children.
Spiritual riches are far greater a value than that which is of money which leaves one with a hole in their heart when it is all said and done.
My prayer, when I was a young adult has been one of Father possess me– I did not know what I was asking and so I know that it came from Him, and that He put that desire into my heart.
I can not say that I have attained this yet but I know in my heart He is ever cleansing and garnishing His temple with in me as He chooses.
In my darkened understanding, scripture that says for us to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth, meant to have natural children. Is the scriptures wrong in that many choose to have children? absolutely not, however, while reading this passage one afternoon those words became alive in me, and so I went to the Lord and reminded Him that He said I was not going to have natural children, to which He made me to understand that be fruitful, was to keep allowing fruit to come forth in me and multiply and the replenishing of the earth was to make brothers and sisters.
If one thinks me to be super spiritual, please know that I still know nothing as I ought, and seek what we all seek which is the light of His word and apply it to our lives.
It always takes at least two sides to have a complete picture:
The one who deceives and the one who allows to be deceived.
(Tickle my ears brother.)
Money happens to be the way we run our economies, personally and nationally.
That’s just a simple fact.
Money is like a tool, a knife. You can use a knife to slice bread, which is quite helpful, or you can use it to kill someone.
The wisest man ever, Salomon, said as recoded in Proverbs,”money is the answer for everything”. He must have seen a lot of people struggle financially.
Money in itself is not evil, the love of it is! It’s not about money, but rather about a person’s motivation.
God alone sees a person’s heart!
Be careful not to fall into satan’s trap of gossiping and shredding a brother!
Does the devil, among other things, perhaps own a costume of a righteous looking, humble man who seemingly lives a simple lifestyle and then turns around and condemns a brother? Who is the accuser of…
It’s one thing to preach and point out biblical truths in the area of prosperity and money, but it’s another story to condemn and shred a brother.
Is “Freddie Wikipedia” a prophet of God who came to warn His church?
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Mario,
You are funny!
Thank you for your post. True enough it is the LOVE of money that is the root.
“Freddie Wikipedia” LOL!!
I come from a background of the last 15 yesrs in a WOF church. Kenneth Hagin and his modern day disciples teachings were adhered to. I have done 3 years in a Jerry Savelle Bible school.
As a person who only cares about the truth at any cost I have come to the conclusion that this whole movement is built on faulty foundations. I dont have a problem with prosperety and neither does God, He loves prospering His people. The lies are that you dont have to tithe and give firstfruits and all the rest that is always part of the prosperity package. This is just lawmaking.
I have left my church of 15 years because why do these ministries teach that Jesus physical death was not enough to atone for our sins. I saw this in one of Hagins books and all the modern day disciples preach this different gospel. I dont know Kenneth Hagin but my assessment is that he preached a mixture. In one book he says that in hell Jesus took on the nature of the devil an in another he says Jesus only became estranged from God in death. All the same they claim that Jesus suffered in hell (because the blood is not enough to atone) and became the first born again man. The word says that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, the WOF crowd says that means he was the first born again man. So He is no longer the only begotten…blah blah blahh if we study the facts we see how deep this ugly rabbit hole goes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaYVq2IdE2I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaYVq2IdE2I&feature=related
Some interesting comments.
Here in the UK the Prosperity pundits are on our tv screens.
One thing really puzzles me is a certain Mr Poppov has folks on his programme week after week who clain to have received thousands of dollars usually from ” nowhere”. Does any one on these pages know of any person who has had these sums of money.
Do you know of any one who has first hand knowledge ??
Surely its time for these who make the clain to be interviewed as to HOW the money came to them. Or are they all liars or stooges?
Has any one any proof, surely someone must know somene who knows someone etc ANY COMMENTS & KNOWLEDGE OF THIS PLEASE. HOW DO THESE FOLKS GET THE ” TESTIMONIES”
Saw the other day of a Dr M. M. who felt psalm 40 (?) come to mind and a donation of $40 would be a suitable seed. ( good job it was not Psalm 119 !)
Looking at the comments it would appear that the article is not factually correct and has not been checked out prior to posting it.
It is all very confusing and irritataing ( including the assortrment of comments) and God is not the author of confusion is He ?
Johan Vermeulen….totally agree with your whole statement.
Dear Joyce….I feel your horror and pain within your post, but i fear that it is misplaced.
I would so much rather that my fellow Brethren corrected me, than I continue on and fall into a pit dug by satan. Christ admonished us to stand for Him and His truth. When we see His word seemingly being perverted we are to stand. The Holy Spirit dwells in all Believers to more or less degree in as much as they are able to sacrifice their egos.
I am sorry that your dear tender ears perceive this as “shredding” and tearing one another a part. When my parents or my friends correct me, or share with me their concerns, I consider it an offering of their love for me.
If their concern was misplaced due to their own perceptions, I just shake it off. God will be the ultimate judge of what is CORRECT, and He will not hold it against us because we,…. in our LOVE and limited understandings that we have while here on earth…attempt to magnify His True Teachings and keep others from falling into a snare of the devil.
Oh David….thank you! Thank you, thank you, for lifting up Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani in Iran! Let’s also pray for all of those like him who we don’t know about.
All we need to do is read the words of Jesus on money, mammon, riches, possessions, the poor, etc -
And every prosperity preacher’s message completely falls apart.
Bless you!
Andrew Strom.
I BELIEVE, thank you for your post on LOVE. God’s love is not the phoney, touchy, feely, superficial love that so many cultivate within society…and now within many of the churches in the Western World where I live. God’s love is a Rock. It is a love that grows truth, teaches standards, and seeks the best for others….not giving to people what they want, but what they need. It is a love that can divide us from the tares. It is a Love that heals, and cuts out that which is rotten when it cannot be healed.
LUCUS;
Eso sería en verdad una bendición, Lucus hermano, si los hermanos conocidos como iba a predicar un mensaje! Espero que esta redactada correctamente. He utilizado un traductor lenguaje de Internet. Bienaventurados los pobres en espíritu, ya veces eso es difícil de hacer cuando uno es rico, a menos que se la están dando todo por la borda!
I went to an online translator, hope it was correct! ;-).
Lucus posted: I wish that some important Brother in the Gospel, preaches a clear position on the dangers of prosperity theology and attachment to the riches!
Fize This is in open channel network TV world passed on to the world, especially to believers in God through Jesus Christ.
My response: That would be a blessing indeed, Brother Lucus, if the well known Brothers would preach such a message! I hope I worded this correctly. I used an internet language translater. Blessed are the poor in spirit, and sometimes that is hard to do when one is rich, unless they are giving it all away!
I am going to post something from another website and I am doing it, because I know for a fact that these are true stories. — They are the countless UNTOLD STORIES, stories that those that have been in , or still are in the W.of F. or Prosperiety teachings, MUST hear, and afterwards I pray that each will go unto the Father and ask , seek, knock and repent, or forgive (which ever if any they need to do)
I have seen some of these situations — first in my own business as a massage therapist, when the Lord truly would bring me someone into my office that needed HIS HELP. Some I simply listened to, others, I ministered to , and others well, others gave their hearts to the Lord and still others gave and then hit skid road again. I did this all before I was introduced into the seedy make believe world of the prosperity teachers. Even before I knew they existed, yet, in the past 8 yrs. 4 of those 8 yrs. the Lord had me in and out of these places to teach me, to show me , to allow me to even participate and see the scams LATER that they were.
I am learning that the only way to help people truly understand is to seek the Lord, they have to WANT to see HIS TRUTH and not hold on to a lie that has been given to them by some wonderful sounding “Man or Woman of God” that others have been trying to tell you that they are false but that you don’t want to believe or that you think we are not to judge what lies that they speak and the people they hurt.
For about 2 yrs. I listened to TBN for hours upon a day and it all “:sounded good” matter of fact, I prayed w/ the “so called best of them” , I was also involved in Benny Hinn ministry and even was asked to sing in his choir during his conventions – which I did.
I can tell you that there are people there in those places , including Copeland and Jessie Duplantis and so many others that truly BELIEVE what is being preached and they really really love the Lord and are looking for healing and believe they will receive it.
But I can also tell you the “behind the scenes” aspect of these unloving so called Men and Women of God, that do not truly care for the flock that has come to seek the Lord or in many cases seek the ones on stage that are claiming to do God’s work.
Matter of fact, I had to have the true transcript, the unedited video’s/cds and the written word of God in front of me, before I even was able to discern the falseness of them. And as I purged and literally fell on my knees and cryed out to our Lord and Savior to forgive me for being caught up in the devils deceit, it was then and only then that the scales came off of me. It was time. It was time that our Father, allowed me to see HIS TRUTH, the pain I was in was greater than the pain I felt in my own body at one time(and I can truly say , ONLY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HEALED ME – PHYSICALLY- no MAN or Woman BUT HE in HIS TIME .
I have literally watched men and women give their last dollars , even use credit cards to do as Benny Hinn and others have directed them to do . And give diamond rings and other jewlery of watches of great value and other things to “pay for a healing or Prophetic word”.
I can say so much more, but I know this is getting lengthy, and I want people to read Chrystal Whit’s Slaughter of the Sheep, website that I have posted below.
This stuff is really going on and people , God’s people need to be aware of it and humble themselves, and yes, cry and even get angry if necessary , but always come back unto the Lord and allow HIM to minister to you and ask others to help you that have been there and come out of it.
This stuff is going on ALL OVER the place in every section of CHURCHES , some are more tainted then others, some might not be as visual as others, some might be doing it behind closed doors but eventually it will seep into the open air and grab the people.
Andrew posted this
“” All we need to do is read the words of Jesus on money, mammon, riches, possessions, the poor, etc -
And every prosperity preacher’s message completely falls apart.
Bless you!
Andrew Strom.
______________________________________________________________________________________
and what I have written is all in the realm of this stuff that is going on. May God truly help those that are hurting and coming out of these places or that will be coming out of these places and may we help them, or pray for them, and not be critical of them or call them names because they were involved in these places but Praise the Lord for their eyes and ears are opening up and may we love them as our Lord Jesus Loves them because they are willing to see HIS LIGHT not the fake light.
Here is the article
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New post on Slaughter of the Sheep
The Problem with Not Questioning
by Chrystal Whitt
Common sense takes people a long way. Some folks say you either have it or you don’t. Some will say that if you walk in the spirit, you don’t need common sense. I’ve heard charismatic leaders say, “Don’t question this!” or “Don’t try to figure this stuff out… just go with it!”
No, let’s question and let’s question a lot!
Trinity Broadcasting Network is probably the biggest “christian” broadcasting channel on the planet. The money that goes through there is more money than we little folks will ever see in our entire life time. The network spans the globe; the owners own mansions, leisure jets, and stay in penthouse suites. They drive cars with a price tag that would be enough to buy a house for normal, hard working people. But, let’s not question it.
A glitter-dipped minister looks at the tv screen and tells you that if you’ll send in your last dime, God will heal you. So, a lonely widow who has been diagnosed with cancer, who is feeling desperate, who is feeling forsaken sees that smiling face and she feels hope. He would never lie to her, he’s a man of God. She gets what last few dollars she has and she sends it to him. Two weeks later she dies; but, he takes her money and goes back to his ivory castle. But, don’t you dare question it.
A cracked out prostitute lays in the ghetto and trembles as her body is wracked in pain. She hates the drug she’s addicted to but she must have it. Her body needs it, or so she thinks. It’s the only thing that will stop the physical pain. It’s the only thing that will numb the emotional pain, if only temporarily. The memories of sexual abuse come, but they don’t hurt as bad if she can’t feel. The more she uses the more it eats her alive… but the memories keep coming, and the pain won’t stay away. The burning cycle she is on kills her more and more every time. She checks into a seedy hotel and curls up on the bed. She turns on the television just for a little noise and sees that nickel slick preacher staring back at her. “God wants to prosper you. All you need to do is to take out your check book and sow into that to reap a financial harvest. God has promised he will prosper you.” She stares at the screen and the pain goes deeper. She has very little money. How could she possibly afford a blessing from God? Despair wells up until she feels nothing but hate. “Where was God when ______ was sneaking into my bed every night?” Where was His love then?” She looks at the screen and hears that God wants to prosper her… but there are no answers to the questions that really haunt her. Instead of the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation, she hears a message about prosperity, which only has the power to make this preacher richer. Deciding to take a chance that maybe God will help her, she finds her last five dollars and sends it in. Two weeks later she dies of a drug overdose, but this man’s coffers just got fatter. But, let’s not question it.
A heartbroken father holds his toddler in his arms. Three weeks prior, his child fell into the family pool and drowned. The medics were able to get a heartbeat, but the brain damage was too extensive. The doctors have given up hope – there’s nothing else they can do. In desperation, he checks his child out of the hospital and goes to a healing crusade. He sits there, rocking his child and begging God for a miracle. This preacher can heal him. He’s done it so many times before. He has donated to this man’s ministry for years – surely there’s a miracle for him. The preacher with the million dollar smile and $2,000 suit comes to the platform and speaks of all the marvelous things God has done through him – and this will happen to you too, but only if you sow into what the spirit is doing. The desperate father watches as the money buckets come out – he watches as people donate – he watches as the money overflows – and he watches as the preacher leaves the stage. He looks down into his child’s face. The million-dollar preacher walks away even richer – the father walks away and buries his child five days later. But, no…don’t question it.
If God had never sent us His Word, if He had never taught us the way of righteousness, even common sense would demand outrage at this. Even as sinful and depraved human beings, we look at that and see the perverseness of it all! It should sicken us that these men (and even women) preach this abominable doctrine, and scam people in such a sleezy way, and they do it all in the name of God. Common sense and common sense alone tells us this. Or at least it should. Many don’t reason it out. Many don’t want to. They believe these lies no matter how perverse it is.
But, don’t question it. Don’t you dare.
Chrystal Whitt | February 21, 2012 at 7:08 pm | Tags: Prosperity Gospel, Trinity Broadcasting Network, Word of Faith | Categories: Deception, Word of Faith | URL: http://wp.me/pf69g-12K
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Lucus posted: I wish that some important Brother in the Gospel, preaches a clear position on the dangers of prosperity theology and attachment to the riches!
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Jesus and the Disciples preached on that topic under “IDOLATRY”.
Anything that becomes your number one focus in life, has become your driving motivation, your god, your idol.
God knows what we need to make a living and He has the power to provide, sometimes even miraculously (Mueller). Jesus told the Disciples to not take anything with them when they went out to preach and teach. “Go in faith! Your Father knows what you need, and He’ll look after you!”
You want money?
Seek first, no FIRST!!!!!, His Kingdom and all that you need (He knows what that is!) will be added.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
These who prostitute the church for their gain are truly the ones that when they stand in front of the LORD, He will say…(paraphrased)..”I don’t know you. Depart from me and go into the outer darkness of gnashing teeth and despair.”
He will say it softly….to them. He will not shout it out at them like they shouted at their flock in order to generate psychological fear and guilt with the flock so that they would reach deep into their pocket books to purchase their healing, their forgiveness….very simular to how the first large organized churches sold forgiveness.
When God conficts us of our sins, it is a still small voice within our minds, that we cannot ignore…..and it requires nothing but our repentence and setting aside our will to follow His.
Claudia,
Somehow I just don’t think He will speak in a still small voice at that time– there is too much scripture that depicts of Him as thunder.
…on a positive note, eg. T L Osbourne.. the Gospel is getting preached in the Name of Jesus, people are getting saved from Hell (many would never have heard of the Name of Jesus and to call on His Name for Salvation (by Grace not works) had not these ‘so called’ prosperity preachers gone and ministered to them. Millions of people will give thanks to God for these preachers in Heaven because ‘at least’ they heard the Word. They do not ‘all’ solely focus on making money eg. Oral Roberts built a Christian University and Hospital with the money he asked for….
Chas 351
please do your history search of the truth of Oral Roberts. You might want to start here. It is written in two parts but very factual.
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteach47.htm
Many suffered under the hands of Oral Roberts but TBN and Benny Hinn and others covered it over w/ huge attnys. and all their handlers.
I truly hope some were able to find our Father, Lord Jesus and Holy Spirit and not shun them and the truth.
There are times when we can stand up and speak, and there are times when we are called to hold our peace and protect ourselves. We need DISCERNMENT. Is there any thing one can do about those things, that have become of ‘epidemic proportion’? There are only two ways to handle such things: either contain it before it breaks out or protect one-self from getting exposed to that virus(keeping one-self from getting caught in their snare). Watch the video on youtube by typing, ‘ The One World Religion and The New World Order is Forming – NWO Bible or Traditions’, and you will know how the churches world around, opened themselves up to deception and lies.
It was Pope John Paul II who brought in the abomination of the world to the churches by his inter-faith movement in Assissi, Italy on 27th October, 1986. This Ecumenical Movement corrupted the churches from within. The ‘Prosperity Movement’ is just one aspect of it. Today, every pastor/priest of the existing churches carry the corrupted spirit that their elders have imparted to them, which they in turn imbibed at the world inter-faith movement at Assisi in Italy, in 1986. There is hardly any church left that has not partaken of that corrupted false spirit.
All that we see around is summed up in 2nd Thessalonians 2:10-12.
‘…because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.’
In Christ,
Sheeja
chas351 mentioned
This is not quite correct. You need to have the real Jesus for him to be your atonement for your sins. Having a counterfeit Jesus just does not work. Please consider this passage.
Notice that those people were quite convinced that they were of Christ. They used his name and taught stuff about him but at the end Christ did not recognise them. Even the devil will proclaim the name of Jesus along with error but it will not benefit him.
The Jesus of the prosperity churches is not the Jesus of the Bible. It is a counterfeit. Basically Another pagan idol or god that uses the same name but teaches another gospel altogether. A false Christianity that has risen up alongside the real so as to draw the multitudes away from the true and bind them in the false. Satan has always enticed the masses by tempting them with their own lusts. Easy money is the temptation here for this trap.
The thing is that this prosperity teaching is not new and the original Apostles warned us about it and gave a solid instruction to not get involved with it’
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
The sad part is that anybody that reads the new testament should pick up on this. But of course that verse will never be pointed out will it, selective teaching with only the verses that support a position mostly taken out of context.
Just read the scriptures for yourselves and then apply what they say so as to get the scam artists out your life.
There is a bottom line and a litmus test.
The lie is that Jesus came to give us a second heaven here on earth; a comfortable life where all our worldly flesh desires are fulfilled. Those who preach and believe this are terribly deceived and have never studied the Scriptures with open eyes and ears.
The bottom line is that He came to save us, so we can get to Heaven.
As King David said: “I am a stranger in the earth.” In other words, “I don’t really belong here. I was created to be with my Father in His Heaven.”
The litmus test is when Jesus asks us to sell our earthly possessions and to give our money to the poor and make Him our everything, walking by faith and trusting that He will meet all our needs.
Of course, a deceived prosperity hunter would never be able to hear Jesus ask him to sell everything and only follow Him.
O how strong is the un-crucified flesh!
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
In Matt 6:23&24
The light of the body is the eye, it therefore your eye is single, your WHOLE body shall be full of light…But if your eye is evil your WHOLE body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how GREAT is that darkness.. (caps mine)
Very sobering…an ‘evil eye’ is a jewish idiom which denotes greed and stingyness whilst the single/good eye denotes generosity. We can’t serve two masters together can only be one at a time.
You can be given material wealth, as long as it doesn’t have you… and you don’t run after it. Where our heart is, that is where our treasure is….what is our greatest treasure??
Evil eye is mentioned a few more times, here are a couple more…
Prov 23:6 Eat not the bread of him that has an evil eye, neither desire his dainty meats.
Prov 28:22 He that hurries to be rich has an evil eye and considers not that poverty shall come upon him.
A great blog article I only just read today re prosperity
http://judahslion.blogspot.com.au/
Anything that our hearts yearn after other than Christ Jesus and His ways could end in idolatry…always a good idea to examine our hearts daily.
The only who is prosperring is the preacher.
Shame to the false preacher
Someone ought to have told the early disciples of such a doctrine. The reality is, Paul warned Timothy about men of corrupt thinking in 1 Timothy 6:5, 9-11; indicating such men supposed “godliness was a means of gain”, and their desire for riches was a trap that brought them “into ruin and destruction” (v. 9).
In God’s economy, it’s the “loss” side of the equation which is the hallmark of the believer. Some may or may not prosper in the pocket, but ALL will prosper in the soul as they seek & serve the Lord (versus self-interest).
Word of Faith practitioners would have us believe that faith is a formula by which we manipulate the spiritual laws that govern the universe, instead of losing ourselves before a Holy God. It feels all too casting-of-spells-like when they pray formulas for this or that, using “faith” as a talisman instead of as the engine for walking out the life God’s given us.
What a sad mission statement for the current church, as the article indicates: “In the late 2000s, proponents claimed that tens of millions of Christians had accepted prosperity theology.” How unlike what the Bible teaches!
The Bible warns against pursuing riches, warning church leaders (1 Timothy 3:3) to be free from the love of money (Hebrews 13:5). The love of money leads to all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus warned, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions” (Luke 12:15) He further warned: “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal” (Matthew 6:19), and well as “You cannot serve both God and money.” (Matthew 6:24)
Believers are blessed to be a blessing, no matter what form those blessings takes. (2 Corinthians 9:8-12)
The problem that sticks out to me is this…the prosperity preachers want those who are looking to them for answers to look at their lives as how they should be living. If you follow what I say and do what I do….you will be blessed by God and have health, wealth and prosperity. Instead of looking to the life of Jesus..people look to the life of the one who is preaching. God gives us people as an example..such as Paul. These people use it for their own gain but truly believe they are in God’s will.
I also see those who have no money…look to those that do have money and want to do what they do…since they’re a Christian and have money…they obviously did something right.
It doesn’t seem that people look to Jesus anymore for an example of how to live.
Also, Jesus didn’t condemn those who had power or money that were humble….Like Kathleen and others said….it’s the heart that matters. (How I see it.)
I don’t think those who have money should feel ashamed of the fact that they do and go and sell everything they have. I do think that God blesses some with wealth….it’s what you do with it that matters. (my opinion)
Let me sum it all up…
The things of this world are the things of the prince of this world, who is satan.
How can a man who is full of worldly desires possibly be full of the Holy Spirit?
How can there be room in a person’s heart for both, worldly lusts and godly humility? How can a crocodile live in peace together with a lamb?
How can a heart be divided and yet be whole?
There is only room for one in your heart. Whatever lives in a person’s heart controls his mind.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Bruce Wilkinson is not a prosperity teacher and The Prayer of Jabez does not teach word of faith. And of course, everything we read in Wikipedia must be true. I suggest doing a little confirmation research before posting Wiki articles. There was a little 13-year-old in a school I taught in who was an editor for Wikipedia….
Mario…
do you believe if you have money you are not full of the Holy Spirit?
It would seem that we are justified in condemning our brother and sister if they have money now?
So Christians now have the right to judge what goes on in the heart of a believer if they have money and live a comfortable life?
What about prosperity from hard work? I hope that those who judge those who have money in the church don’t automatically think that they are full of sin and bankrupt of the Holy Spirit.
It’s the love of money that is the problem. I DO think God rewards those who work hard and give hard. I DO think that you can love God with all your heart..be full of the Holy Spirit and be rich in this life.
I would hope people don’t judge those who live comfortably and think they are full of sin.
Beloved fellow believers let us study the Word- the Living Word of God and let His Holy Spirit counsel us!
What did Jesus tell the rich young ruler to do?
If one who professes Christ cannot give up their comfortable life and riches in this world and follow Him, that one cannot be His disciple.
Jesus said, “a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”
Jesus also said in Luke 14:33
“So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.”
Tyrone….so that means that I am not a disciple of Christ. Cool. I’ll let my husband know. That’ll make his day. Awesome. ;0)
ahhh..I’m kidding…But… I have to prove to God that I’m His disciple by giving everything I own away? If I keep a sweater to keep me warm…does that mean I’m not His disciple? I would think keeping a fork to eat with would probably fall along those lines as well?
Geesh…I always believed God was kind and good and loving to His kids….someone I want to be around and encourage others as well…but it would seem that I have to prove my love to Him by living a life of poverty?
What about when God says…seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you…but what do I do with those things…get rid of them?
So unbalanced it would seem.
amen Mario, I think you are spot on!
Meredith you seem to be misunderstanding what Mario is saying and putting words in his mouth that aren’t there. You are right when you say the love of money is the problem, and this is the problem with all of us – fallen human nature serves mammon and loves money, this is the character of our flesh. And that’s why it needs to be crucified. So the rich young ruler I see as being all of us, but I have hope for him, because he went away sad (mourning) when Jesus put His finger on his problem, and blessed are they who mourn, Godly sorrow leading to repentance.
Meredith wrote:
Mario…
do you believe if you have money you are not full of the Holy Spirit?
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Hi Meredith,
let me answer your question with one of my earlier posts:
Money happens to be the way we run our economies, personally and nationally etc.
That’s just a simple fact.
Money is like a tool, a knife. You can use a knife to slice bread, which is quite helpful, or you can use it to kill someone.
The wisest man ever, Salomon, said as recoded in Proverbs,”money is the answer for everything”. He must have seen a lot of people struggle financially.
Money in itself is not evil, the love of it is! The issue here is REALLY NOT about money, but rather about a person’s motivation or heart.
God alone sees a person’s heart! BUT, by their fruit… we also can see…, RIGHT?
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Let me ask:
Why did the Disciples and Jesus Himself, who according to Scripture didn’t even own a place to lay His head, give us their example of a “certain” lifestyle?
Or should we not take their lifestyles as an example?
Where your heart is there is your treasure!
I know a multimillionaire who lives a rather simple and humble lifestyle, and who uses God’s financial blessings to build orphanages and schools in Kenya, and who takes young guys off the streets here in Canada and puts them through rehab etc. instead of driving a Mercedes or wearing $800 suits, because his heart is with Jesus in Heaven, where his treasure and his home are.
As King David said: “I am a stranger in the earth. I don’t really belong here. My home is in Heaven with my Father.
And if your home is with Jesus, in His Kingdom, then the things and allure of this world will grow strangely dim! That’s the litmus test!
I know something… cause my brother died at 27, and my sister died at 29. I’m the last of the… so to speak.
Don’t waste your energy and desires on worldly stuff cause you never know how long you’re gonna be here!
“LAY UP FOR YOURSELVES TREASURE IN HEAVEN!”
Now why is that sooo difficult to understand??
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
GoodWordfortoday——-
I cannot comment about Wiki, extensively, except that I have found mistakes at times and incorrect info.
As far as Bruce Wilkerson and Prayer of Jabez, I can tell you about what John Hagee of Cornerstone Church did for months upon months and unfortunately, we were a part of it and we even had the books that I passed out to clients (repented much later as I found out the truth) and Hagee had beautiful hand cards and 5 x 7 pretty printed cards that he gave to all that attended during those months into even a couple of years and then it kinda went away and it was only “referenced” in his sermons at times.
What we did every Sunday morning (and he had two services on Sundays) we did the Lord’s prayer and then turned around and read NOT ONCE but Twice, the Prayer of Jabez, and Hagee talked about how everyone needed to prosper and that led into confession of Prosperity message.
Later on , much later, we realized that this was a mantra. As Hagee told us to “recite” it daily several times if needed and even carry one of the cards w/ us , if we cannot remember all the prayer.
I repented and renounced all his books and the prayer of Jabez because I realized at a much later time that just because it is “in the church” and you “are told to recite it and God will bless you”
Not everyone “is looking for riches” not everyone is even looking for prosperiety, many were just looking for an income to stay afloat. I can not judge anyones heart, or motive, except my own and as we look to ourselves and we are honest to ourselves that is when we humble ourselves and do as the Lord, Father God and Holy Spirit guides us.
As we lay everything down, He has access to take over and show us HIS TRUTHS , and show us as we read HIS WORD.
As I bought other Bruce Wilkenson books I realized that it was the same , more imagination, more mysticism and more visualization, dreaming and bringing forth your dreams as in “dreams that you dream” which spells NEW AGE. oh, “christian new age, ” which there is no such thing just like no such thing as “christian yoga or christian martial arts.
Here is a good website, accurate and many others that one can look up .
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/biblicalprayers.html
Mum….not putting words into his mouth..I wasn’t quoting him I was asking for a deeper meaning to what he was saying. Seeing that Mario is always a gracious and kind man (admiring what he posts.. always)..I’m also assuming he can answer what I commented on and asked of him. Thanks anyway. ;0)
Mario…
I agree with what you say above in response. I think we should all be aware of our heart though when it comes to judging those who are prosperous. Absolutely, the fruit will show the man..or woman.
“Don’t waste your energy and desires on worldly stuff cause you never know how long you’re gonna be here!” agreed.
“LAY UP FOR YOURSELVES TREASURE IN HEAVEN!”
Now why is that sooo difficult to understand??
Nope not hard to understand…
“How can a man who is full of worldly desires possibly be full of the Holy Spirit?” agreed…my question would be..if a person is prosperous…does that mean they are full of worldly desires? If I drive a nice car and live in a nice big house..does that mean my heart is full of worldly desires? That was my wonder…and you answered it nicely. Thank you.
Meredith – I encourage you to study out the teachings of Jesus Christ and what it means to be a disciple.
Jesus was saying in the scriptures I quoted that you must be ready and willing to give up what you own in this world to follow Him. He gave those instructions to the rich young ruler and he could not do it, but your heart might be in a different place.
Now, if you are rich and comfortable in this world right now, are you ready and willing to give up your possessions and do whatever Jesus tells you to do?
Mario quoted Jesus when He said, “Where your treasure is, there will be your heart also”
Tyrone…agreed. ;0)
For those claiming the Wikipedia article is somehow “biased”, I say again as a long-time Pentecostal and a student of Revival history that in my view it is overall a very accurate article. That is why I posted it.
Bless you!
Andrew Strom.
Meredith – Amen :-)
Although money is perhaps the biggest issue when it comes to idolatry, it still is only one of many.
The question to ask is why it is such big deal to have money? Of course, the answer is a very different one, depending on who you are and where you live.
For an African crowd it’s likely just about putting food on the table and being able to afford basic medical, and a roof over your head. And since the preacher who preaches prosperity to this crowd likely already has all of the above, for him it’s perhaps about being able to add another hot car to his collection and have a personal body guard.
And then there are the North-American crowds and prosperity preachers…
What might their motivation be?
Personally:
Watching the News with little children starving to death in Sudan and many other places, if I were to even think of buying a fancy BMW or Mercedes for example, the conviction in my heart would tear me apart, because I know that there are plenty good and much cheaper cars out there, which are absolutely sufficient.
And I also know that you can never give too much to the poor. And there is something else that I know:
The Bible teaches that, “without faith it is impossible to please God”.
But a person who has a lot of money is in a great predicament because he doesn’t really need much faith. This reminds me again of the young rich ruler…
I believe his faith and security was in the power of his money, don’t you think?
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
The young rich ruler wanted to make Jesus and salvation an “add-on” to all that he already possessed.
Little did he realize that you can’t degrade Jesus Christ to someone you add on to your life, BECAUSE HE IS YOUR LIFE!
Blessings, and INDEED All 4 Jesus!
Mario
I am posting these because it is relevant and we must all be aware and concern for those still trapped in this stuff.
Yes, there are always those that “deserve it” But we need to pray if there are those that really are caught INNOCENTLY in the deception and there truly are. There are also those that have not yet had their eyes opened and I know that there will be some NOT ALL, but some that will be so hurt that they will either turn from God or fall before HIM.
Maybe there are things that they will purge , once they leave these places and really go before the Lord and humble themselves, repent , renounce and lay it all down before HIM, but right now, there is allot coming out of these places and if you by chance get the opportunity to minister to one, PLEASE don’t throw daggers at them for first being there, love them, and help them not talk about “why in the world would you be in this deceit and false ministries. Help them, Rejoice w/ them and pray w/ them. — They are coming out wounded and hurt and they need the Love of Jesus , not human flesh .
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Here are the websites again, Chrystal Whitt.
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If You Get in TBN’s Way, You Die!
Posted on February 24, 2012
You may think I’m being hyperdramatic, but I’m not.
Click on this video link, forward to 8:38 into the video, and listen for yourself. Paul Crouch says he has attended the funerals of two people who came against TBN. Crouch stated this on the same day as news of his granddaughter’s lawsuit broke online. Who could he possibly have been directing this at?
If Crouch is not loyal to his own grandchild, how in the world can he and his son, Matthew, possibly be loyal to their donors and most steadfast followers?
I think it’s high time people wake up and do what they can to stand in the way of TBN by denying them the thing they want the most – money.
(you might have to go to her website to get the video to view)
here is the other website on ANOTHER lawsuit filed against TBN on Feb. 23,
http://taxdollars.ocregister.com/2012/02/23/suit-cover-ups-of-sexual-and-criminal-scandals-at-tbn/149534/
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This all is about prosperiety, their ministries and their lies to people , how they huddle together, cover it all up and day after day claim things that are not true and I have watched young , new preachers start out o.k. and they get tainted. (why , is not my business) but they get tainted and we can all learn from this because maybe one day, we all will be faced w/ same dangling carrotts , whether it is by — lies, cheats, association by guilt, fame , fortune, or because we have taken in and mimiced all the wrong preachers. For what ever reason, some will fall. This is all history for us to take in and learn from. Satan comes in all pretty packages, and ribbons and bows to tempt us . The walk really is getting long and narrower as the days are growing darker.
Must remember that our battle is NOT against people, against flesh and blood.
These people are deceived and they now deceive others.
The battle is a spiritual one, against satan and his spiritual influence in people’s lives.
The hardest blow you can throw at these people is to pray for them.
Jesus said: “Pray for your enemies.”
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
It’s unfortunate that so many seem to use their own life and experience as the litmus test and plumb line instead of the example and truth we have been given scripture. They compare themselves with themselves instead of looking into the mirror of the God’s word. Such ones are difficult to convince because they only want to hear what allows them to remain comfortable in their current condition rather than going on to maturity.
But most of us posting here understand that living the American Dream (or it’s equivalent in any other country) is not usually how God makes disciples. On the contrary, usually we are called to forsake that broad way, and as far as I can tell, I think this is partly what it means to be in the world but not of it.
The problem is that if you smell like the world, look like the world act like the world, talk like the world and desire what everyone else desires, how can you possibly convince anybody that you’re not rally of the world?
One thing to be avoided is the swing of the pendulum. It is so very easy to swing from one extreme to the other. The Apostles experienced both wealth and poverty by their standards and basically learnt to be content in which ever situation they found themselves in.
A continual lack of anything will eventually grind the soul but at the same time to be consumed for the gain of mammon becomes a trap to the soul.
The thing is as members of Christ’s body here on earth we should be conducting our behaviour in accordance with heavenly principles. We need to remember that with our dealings with the secular world we are required to obey their economic rules but we do not let the secular system pollute our walk with God.
We should not be talking about if a person has money or not, some are better educated and earn more and some are just plain lucky. Some are lazy and some just haven’t a clue. We will always have the rich and the poor and worldly economic situations will continually change. What we should be looking out for is the dishonest gain. The extortionist and double weights and fraudsters.
Wealth is relative to what community you live in. I’ve been very poor and still had rich people be envious of me. It is the condition of the hart that shows through. Who you serve, God or Mammon, it shows in how you interact with the world around you and what your value system is based on. We have to ask ourselves, in our normal thought processes do we seem to display the fruits of the spirit or do the fruits of the world take priority first.
This has nothing to do with how much material possessions you have, it is about how you think. You will find that as a general rule those that do have an obscene amount normally display the worldly wisdom and fruits thereof while those with a moderate to small amount are normally more giving. Somehow it just seems to work out that way.
To be truthful with you, materialism and the pursuit of wealth has many faces.
One thing I see as deplorable is when the church world goes on a spending frenzy in the name of Christ.
I speak of the great celebration carried out each year as though everyone is having a birthday party for Jesus. When in reality its about how many things can we get for each other, worldly possessions.
Men fabricate a holiday that was never sanctioned by the Lord. While the world joins in the revelry.
There is a direct tie between wanting wealth, desiring materialism and using the birth of Christ as an excuse for spending above ones means to acquire worthless possessions.
The prosperity message is being preached and at the end of the year we have the grand finale of spending and wanting things we do not need!
Anyone who does any type of research will find the First Century Church did not endorse a Roman holiday that existed on the 25th of December, but will find the Roman Catholic Church took this day and turned it into a Christian holiday.
Now at the end of the age where mammon has become a central point in peoples lives we find they try to drag the Lord Jesus into this picture and say the wise men gave gifts so lets all give gifts to each other in this celebration with the world.
There are many faces to materialism, the prosperity message is just one of them.
Are we willing to take an honest look at how much of the world has infiltrated into the Church?
Traveler wrote:
The Apostles experienced both wealth and poverty by their standards and basically learnt to be content in which ever situation they found themselves in.
Php 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
Php 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
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Dear Traveler,
the Scriptures you quoted are generally used by the prosperity preachers to make their point and justify their doctrines.
However, when we study God’s Word and the account of Jesus and the Apostles, how should we rightly interpret the word “abundance” for example?
To think that Paul was meaning to say that he was wealthy does not seem to be consistent with Scripture. Think about what a wealthy person looks like and usually, regardless of era and culture likes to own. Can you really picture Paul wearing gold chains and elaborate, fancy clothing? Can you picture him investing in real estate? Can you picture him with servants and a fancy horse-drawn carriage?
If it were so then people would have looked at Paul as someone who is not very smart and doesn’t have a clue about money management as he was seemingly either broke, then wealthy, then in prison, then filing for bankruptcy again and then perhaps wealthy again.
Who would trust such a stability lacking man’s judgement?
Abundance simply means that, at times, he had money in his pocket, perhaps even quite a bit of money, donated to him so that he didn’t have to waste time thinking about where his next meal came from or if he would have enough to check into the nearest Inn over night on his travels. And during those times he also didn’t have to make tents to provide for his basic needs. The abundance freed him up to spent most of his time preaching and teaching.
Paul was never concerned with wealth and everything that obviously comes with it, as we can see in those who are wealthy. His focus solely was to preach the Gospel.
The meaning of “abundance” is also a matter of perspective. Although, according to Canadian standards, I am personally far from being wealthy, when I look at how people in drought stricken African countries live I certainly feel that I live with a great abundance.
Definitions:
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Abundance: great amount or supply
Wealth: affluence, assets, belongings, capital, commodities, estate, fortune, funds, gold, goods,holdings, lap of luxury, luxury, opulence,
I know that prosperity preachers say that Jesus had an accountant (Judas),
and that He was wealthy.
Just ask yourself a very simple question:
How does a wealthy person usually live? What do they own? How do they dress etc., etc.
Then study the Scriptures and see if the Holy Spirit will tell you that Jesus and the disciples fit that picture.
I personally think they were far too busy preaching the “good news” to waste time on ‘being wealthy’. Their treasure (wealth) was definitely in Heaven.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Nicole,
I went to the link you provided. I am not surprised by what I saw there. I am a person who was told, point blank on my face, when I returned back to my country , “So you returned alive?” God has revealed to me the deep recesses of Charismatic and Pentecostal Movements happening around the world, and I was given first hand experiences to see, know and understand the things happening within these movements. There are umpty number of incidents where they (THE FALSE SHEPHERDS) tried laying hands on me and eventually confessed, “Sister, God is with you!”.
We are not to fear them, but must be led of God, if ever, we confront them. I have personally witnessed many lives being destroyed by these so called shepherds (‘FALSE SHEPHERDS’).
Teshua, Yes, Thunder He can speak. But…to the Believer that is striving to follow His voice, who believes because of what God is, and what God wants the Believer to do (help His people….put others first) all that is needed is a still small voice.
The Thunder is coming….the Thunder is coming….but it is for those who are deaf and self centered, users of others and God.
KillingIdols;
Please do not put us in a “politically correct” corner where we have to use the correct words. My God is Who He Is and He will use whatever language is necessary….He will speak the language that people understand. We speak from our hearts. Let others hear from their hearts…..and understand that that brothers speak to brothers with the good of the brother in mind. We must speak in ways that all will understand….in common language….not in “buzz words” that are only understood by others who use the same “buzz words”. God wants to reach all.
The church is Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, powered by Eternal Father and all of the people that are in it’s arms. Jesus said they are all One….He can explain that to me when I am like Him. It is enough that He is my LAMB and the ONLY WAY. That CHURCH which holds all True Believers is PURE. The little churches here on earth are not automatically a part of the big church….not if they are focusing on things that are not HOLY, but things of man. Man and satan both reside in the little churches because they are not Holy. No more than the Koran is Holy…but Islams will kill you if you burn their Koran. They have made the Koran into an Idol. The only thing Holy about the little churches here on earth is that Holiness that is brought into the little church from the Believer which has the Holiness within via the Holy Spirit.
Whenever we see things that are of the debase mind we are to stand and reprove them, or we are also guilty of same. The debase mind, unchanged by Christ’s Spirit, is separate from Christ’s Spirit because that which is not HOLY cannot stand in Holy grounds, and it will be destroyed.
Would you have them repent, or continue their walk on into destruction? Satan has attempted to turn “reprove” into something that is politically/religiously incorrect. People are taught to be nice….no matter what. That is also sin….when niceness allows decay and rot to vester under the cover of “holiness” the one being nice is also guilty of same for allowing that rot and not speaking out. Once the words are spoken out….than the Holy Spirit can direct them where they will fall and convict….if the one hearing them is truly seeking the Ways of God, and not their own way. Too many preachers seek the pulpit much like the stock investor seeks the stock market. They have seen how they can profit from same. Name me one Apostle that lived in a mansion? What did Jesus say to the rich man who wanted to follow Him? Why?
Roman’s 1, vs 28-32… “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; Being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness,
maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness;
they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud,
boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.”
The biggest tool in the Roman church, and in the Islamic movement was and is that the follower is taught to be quite, not to speak out against their “god appointed” authorities what the follower perceives to be vile, or they will be excommunicated or beheaded. The problem is we never know whether our “authority” of man was truly God appointed or self appointed. That is why we have been given standards by our God so that we can always hold up the fruits to those standards. Rich mansions, gold jewelry, expensive suits, elaborate makeup….when there are people going hungry is not one of the fruits of the Spirit. That is the way of man and satan. God wants Light to be shined on everything. Let the Light of inspection illuminate any evil within your house.
7But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
The Lord looks at the heart of each man. It does not matter if the person has wealth or is poor.
Was thinking about David and Solomon today. They had great wealth, but it was for a purpose. The wealth was needed to do what the Lord had planned for them.
Does He work any differently today?
There have been times in my life that money was plentiful, but looking back, it was for a specific purpose. For the upholding of others who needed help desperately at the time.
Then there have been times where the Lord has brought me to the place of complete dependance on Him for the bills coming in. He has always been faithful.
Could it be that we look at our own individual economy as an island. Rather than looking at the whole of the Body of Christ as the Lord’s economy.
The economy of the Kingdom of God doesn’t revolve around money, but living in this world, sometimes money is needed to do what He wants done. The most important thing, then, if individually we do find ourselves with an abundance, then make sure it is used the way He sees fit.
Should every dime be given away that the Lord has given opportunity. That is not what is found in scripture either..
Ps 128
1Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in his ways.
2For thou shalt eat the labour of thine hands: happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee.
3Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table.
4Behold, that thus shall the man be blessed that feareth the LORD.
5The LORD shall bless thee out of Zion: and thou shalt see the good of Jerusalem all the days of thy life.
6Yea, thou shalt see thy children’s children, and peace upon Israel.
Walking in the fear of the Lord means walking humbly before Him. Acknowledging Him in all our ways. Whether those ways are plentiful or scarce. Whether all is well in our narrow life, or hardships have come.
Sometimes I wonder if those who are lacking money think that those who do have plenty are somehow depending upon the security of it. Missing the better way of dependance upon God. Certainly there are some who are, but there are also those who do not depend on the nest egg. By their fruits we shall know them. We have to remember that unless we are close in relationship to others we have no idea what they are going through in their life, and how they may be faithful to do exactly what the Lord has called them to.
Thanks Claudia, I glean much encouragement from your words. So often I’m accused by the accuser and I’ve been silent because of self-doubt etc. I should just speak up and share such as I have, and if wrong or lacking in any way, to just let the Father correct me and grow me, as He is gracious to do.
I want to say that when we’re not sure about whether anyone is sent of God or not, a couple of characteristics I’ve learned to watch for is whether they set themselves above the people or remain among the people themselves. Another is whether they allow freedom, the Holy Spirit is free to blow as He wills and the sheep are allowed to graze as they will. That according to the scripture, they do not exercise authority upon the people as the pagans do.
Michelle wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if those who are lacking money think that those who do have plenty are somehow depending upon the security of it.
Michelle
I agree we just have to take everything we hear in life with a grain of salt.
I read one time where a minister condemned everyone who drove a cadillac as this was considered worldly. He changed his sermon material when someone came along and gave him a cadillac. True story!!
I have read a few comments here where some have twisted scriptures to condemn prosperity preachers.
Some have went to the extreme with this teaching on prosperity but we do not have to throw the baby out with the bath water. Abraham’s blessings are ours through Jesus death at the cross.
If some do not wish to look God because of their views in life then so be it.
As I said in another place it all boils down to the attitude of the heart, and yes God is the final judge who knows the hearts of men. I am glad He is God and men are not the ones we all answer to.
If He decides to bless me in some area I am just going to be thankful unto Him.
Michelle…Traveler….Ibelieve…….
some good, humble, honest encouraging words there. Something I can imagine Jesus Himself saying.
They are delussional, selling for profit the things of God!
Sorry to say, but some posters here seemingly have lost their common sense for the sake of trying to be “nice” and none-offensive.
According to Salomon, truth is more important than ‘niceness’! (“The sweet rebuke of a friend etc….)
Let’s look at a fact:
Jesus said: “You cannot serve two MASTERS…”
Why did Jesus refer to money (wealth, mammon) as a master if money is really no big deal, since all that matters is a person’s heart?
We must open our eyes to some facts! Do not be deceived or lured into abandoning common sense and what you have seen.
Do you know what it takes to get and to stay wealthy? Please, think about it.
It takes a HUGE amount of your time, energy and focus. That is why you cannot serve both, God and the other god who obviously demands sooooooo much from you. You cannot “love the Lord your God with ALL your heart, might and soul”, and at the same time manage your wealth and keep it. It is simply impossible as there are too many economical uncertainties, plus a day has only 24 hours and a person needs to sleep sometime!
The young rich ruler was missing one more trophy on his shelf.
He wanted to make Jesus and salvation an “add-on” to all that he already possessed.
And his wealth occupied his heart, rendering him unable to just give it all away and to “love the Lord his God with ALL his heart”, since there was not much room left in his heart.
Little did he realize that you can’t degrade Jesus Christ to someone you add on to your life, BECAUSE HE IS YOUR LIFE!
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus indeed!
Mario
Yes, Mario, dear one. It is the heart. It takes an entire lifetime to bring ‘your’ heart into beat (understanding) with our Lord and Master…I’ll be 80 years old this year. Our family has wealth. Please know that during all these years loving and serving the Lord, money has never been a thurst or love of ours.
I hear your concern, Mario. Just know there are many wealthy people who love and serve the Lord without bowing to mammon.
God knows the heart, He knows when we are sincere (or not), in everything we do. Trust and obey, there is no other way. I gave my heart to Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior when I was ten years old, but I feel like I’m just beginning. It’s so exciting to keep learning, growing and maturing. Blessing to you and yours, always. Joan W.
The modern prosperity teaching does create all the wrong motives and wrong expectations in the person. Indeed the prosperity teaching does need to be condemned and deservingly so.
But God does still bless his people and does reward them that seek him in sincerity of hart.
We do have to draw a distinction between the secular world and the kingdom of God. Both operate on different principles. But again we do have to live in a secular world so as to serve the kingdom of God as a witness to that world.
Now what Jesus taught about mammon is quite clear. You cannot serve to masters, you have to make a choice between the two. However Jesus also made it clear that you are going to have to deal with both in your life.
Look closer at the very good advice that Jesus gave there. Yes if you do not serve mammon you are going to fail in mammon. But that does not mean you do not be faithful in your dealings with it because deal with it you must.
Mammon includes more than just money and it is the worlds reward for service to this world. If you do not serve this world according to worldly wisdom you will not have any gains in mammon. Simple as that.
But on the other side of the coin if you serve God and make him central in your life you can also expect to receive of the blessings that come from God. God will prosper the work of your hands and will give the gifts of the spirit etc.
What the problem is, is that many seem to have lost the ability to tell the difference between the rewards of worldly mammon and the blessings of God. Many seem to think the are one and the same when they are not.
Traveler Wrote:
What the problem is, is that many seem to have lost the ability to tell the difference between the rewards of worldly mammon and the blessings of God. Many seem to think they are one and the same when they are not.
There are some things in life we will never have all the answers.
Why God allows all of the scenarios that we see around the world.
Some people live in war torn countries where there is the constant threat of falling into harms way. Others live in dire poverty where disease and hunger prevail. Some live under dictators and have to conform outwardly to what their governments force on them.
Then there are those who live in a land of plenty which enjoy a measure of freedom.
Whatever our lot in life is, we must realize we are just pilgrims passing through. Whatever state we find ourselves in we just have to rejoice and move on.
Yes, its sad what is going on throughout Christianity, but those who know the Lord must press on and take one day at a time, hopefully we can all learn from each other and realize we do not have all the answers in life. If God chooses to Bless some materially so be it, I am blessed for them.
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.
One more thing, I am blessed Brother Andrew shared this article. Now we can be aware that there is and has been a problem with some concerning materialism and using the gospel to get wealth.
It’s been good that we can examine our hearts and make sure our priorities are towards the Lord and not in things that we cannot take with us.
Life is all about the attitude and priorities of our hearts.
May the Lord Bless you
Joan W
…your post is a great encouragement and inspiration.
Traveler and Ibelieve….
Amen and amen.
Ibelieve….your last post….I’m glad too! I also think it’s good to share viewpoints and still remain brothers and sisters in the Lord. Knowing that each of us has different ways of looking at things…it brings balance I think.
It is wonderful to be in the family of God; no one could be more blessed! You are all beautiful, thoughtful Brothers and Sisters, who are on the same page, know it or not…just at different growing levels. Some new, some middle, some mature, but as long as we’re on this ole earth, we keep growing in the Lord, It just keeps getting sweeter and better. My love and blessings to each one of you. Joan W.
Great article as usual. Thank you for all you do Andrew. Please keep up the good work!
The issue is not about whether Christians will have money passing through our hands, the issue is that the prosperity gospel has REPLACED the gospel of the cross and Jesus Christ. Crossless Christianity in any form is is a religion that is powerless to save.
I was graciously delivered one miraculous morning from this empty deception and restored to the cross of Christ, the faith of our fathers, through the reading of the book of Matthew with fresh eyes, the eyes of the Spirit. Can’t serve both God and mammon, it is a case of one or the other, the scripture says it and we can clearly observe it. It is either the prosperity gospel OR the cross of Christ. They oppose one another, choose you this day whom you will serve..
The funniest thing about prosperity is the link back to that old demon Rimmon.
http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/1910.html
Interestingly enough, pomegranate symbolizes prosperity in the Hindu religion.
http://www.healthdiaries.com/eatthis/22-facts-about-pomegranates.html
Seems that this particular inroad has been trod before.
Isa 2:6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.
I still see a major link between this prosperity/wof/dominion doctrines and the prayer life. It’s all about idolatry.
Good catch there Michelle, linking these deceptions with paganism. It is all fruit from the same tree.
Hi Mum – when I read your thoughts I see wisdom that probably came with walking with the Lord for a long time. Wow and thank you. bless you
Johan
With all that we have said, one truth still remains: Poverty is very hard to live with. To be poor and struggling just to have the basic stuff in life, makes people very vulnerable. (I know what it’s like to have very little. I’ve been there.)
Salomon said that “money is the answer for everything”.
I would venture to say that, when he dealt with people’s problems, too many times it was the lack of finances that caused a lot of hardship. He obviously saw many people struggle financially.
These prosperity preachers practice selective Bible reading, just picking out some ear tickling raisins. They are deceived by the devil. (The battle is NOT against flesh and blood, against people… Pray for your enemies…) These preachers have turned the Lord into an eternal vending machine where we throw in a quick prayer and out comes the blessing. Deceived indeed!
They are deceived to think that Jesus came to give us a great and easy life here on earth, and that He wants to improve our “flight” until we get to our destiny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEUPcK6hi4s
It’s really tough to be content with very little when today we have media technology where we can watch people live in mind-boggling luxury.
All of this is part of the end-time picture. People are struggling with poverty, war, disasters etc. for everyone to see. All of this is setting the stage for the anti-christ to come as the saviour of the world. He will come to fix it all.
We must preach about God’s Kingdom and Heaven instead of earthly life improvements.
The more people’s focus is fixed on Heaven, the easier it is to endure earthly hardship.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Amen! Mario…AMEN!!! bless you brother…;0)
Hi. Mario Alleckna
Quote.
“Sorry to say, but some posters here seemingly have lost their common sense for the sake of trying to be “nice” and none-offensive.
According to Salomon, truth is more important than ‘niceness’! (“The sweet rebuke of a friend etc….)
Let’s look at a fact:
Jesus said: “You cannot serve two MASTERS…”
I agree with what you have been saying. You know the origin of the word nice? It comes from the French word which = silly or the Latin = ignorant and middle English =stupid.
Psa 73:12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
Though the wicked seem to prosper in this world, yet the Lord drives them down that they shall not rise nor stand in the company of the righteous.
Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Our family always prays for peace and salvation to come in Jerusalem.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
This verse speaks for itself. To move forward and prosper with the Lord we must confess our sins (to God).
The U.S., for example, prospered for upholding God’s law in most of their Government institutions until the twentieth century. But now it’s on a very fast decline, and I believe will never rise to its previous position in the world again.
We should never uphold the Lord or his law (i.e. the bible) just to put money in our pocket. We see this sort of thing with the denominational Pastors, as well as the prosperity preachers. This is the love of mammon.
I like what Tim said about the prosperity preachers. “I am more than willing to receive their financial “seed” so they can reap 100 fold increase on what they give.”
They preach faith, but are not willing to allow God to handle their insurance policies.
In Christ,
Bruce.
Is it not true the secret of the kingdom is not what I can do or have; but my dependency on Christ? The kingdom of God is based on lose not on gain for he who would love his life will lose it but he who looses his life for my sake will find it. Our failure is simple we have learned to depend on ourselves are have become deceived by what we think is of the Holy spirit but is rather the cunning of our flesh.
Everything that will be taken away at death is not worthwhile depending upon, but their is one treasure which is dependable His name is Jesus.
Traveler : you quoted Luk 13:27 and rightly so…
however, those people were NOT Born Again. They had never received the Holy Spirit and did all their Jesus works in the power of the flesh, they were religious outwardly and their hearts far from Him.
The Name of Jesus is above every name and Salvation is simply calling on His Name to be Saved, looking to Jesus for eternal Salvation.
One heart look at Jesus is all that is required to be saved.
(yes another controversial subject)
Numbers 21:9 NIV
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.
Hi.
We must watch that we all don’t look at somebody’s big idol and admonish them while hiding our own small idol which is made of the same thing.
In Christ,
Bruce.
Nicole, thank you for the article on Oral Roberts http://www.letusreason.org/Popteach48.htm
very enlightening!
Oral Roberts is a man.
God uses men to fulfill His purposes which may only last for a season to make it clear to everyone to keep their eyes on Jesus and not on man, another example: Todd Bentley.
People make mistakes, can be deceived and walk in error, however that may not negate the fact that they have The Holy Spirit and the Power of God comes upon them to heal.
Ephesians 4:8 ASV Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men.
Healing power is a gift.
Luke 9:1 ASV
And he called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases.
Luke 10:19 ASV
Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall in any wise hurt you.
Men are not 100% filled with the power of God neither can they walk in the light 100% of the time. only Jesus did that.
Regards Oral Roberts saying he received power from God to Heal > that is Scriptual:
Acts 8:19 ASV
saying, Give me also this “power”, that on whomsoever I lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 6:8 ASV
And Stephen, full of grace and “power”, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.
Luke 24:49 ASV
And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with “power” from on high.
Regards Prosperity
Having faith in God for financial freedom is not wrong in itself, God is pleased with ‘faith’ in Him for what He wants us to receive
3 John 2 Beloved, I pray that in all things thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
Matthew 17:20 ASV
And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
(“nothing” includes finances)(and yes i am aware of seek first the Kingdom – and facts are, that is a very abundantly rich place!)
(please dont confuse what i am saying as the love of money, because that is not my intention)
Matthew 15:28 ASV
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it done unto thee even as thou wilt.
Matthew 16:8 ASV
And Jesus perceiving it said, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have no bread?
You could interpret these verses as “little faith equals little money”
It takes money to print and distribute Bibles
It takes aeroplanes to transport them
It takes money to build churches
Someone has to own it all and it should be the people of the church.
I see that some prosperity teachers live extravagantly and that may ‘not’ necessarily be right, but I’m am not judging them because I don’t know what God has said and done in their lives.
King David, Job, Solomon etc.. were extravagantly rich and the New Testament says we are now Kings and Priests to rule & reign with Jesus,
So if God chooses to financially prosper someone, it is not for me to judge the level. It is fact that the Bible says God wants to prosper us,
after all we are going to live in heaven which is made of Gold and precious stones, and Jesus did say to pray Heaven on earth.
There is NO lack in Heaven.
My thinking is “take what you hear from anyone preaching, keep the truth part and discard the error – don’t swallow everything like a fish.
What human preacher will never preach some error? Are we to avoid listening to all preachers? Show me one who has not said something wrong?
“For ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God” and “if any man says he has no sin, he is a liar”
Instead of criticising them, take what good they say and discard the rest, and if you think they are in total error, avoid listening to them.
One thing for sure, prosperity teachers DO encourage Faith and no one can deny that.
At the end of the day we should be first listening to God’s voice and relying on that – not a human being, who can’t save you.
Jesus was not financially rich on earth because He had no need to be, not because it was sin.
He came to earth to fulfil the law and prophecies and do the will of God; neither had He need of cash as
He knew God would provide everything He needed to do His will.
NOW Jesus has everything:
Revelation 5:12 NIV
In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and WEALTH and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
We do NOT worship a poor Jesus
Colossians 1:16 NIV
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
And
Revelation 1:6 NIV
and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father–to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
We were not Saved to live poor lives on earth, Kings & priests are not poor people.
Matthew 5:3 NIV
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Note>> Poor in ‘spirit’, NOT poor in finances.
It is NOT God’s will to lack financially because there is no lack of anything in heaven
Matthew 6:10 NIV
your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven
God wants the abundance in Heaven to come to earth.
We are to receive the Blessing of Abraham here and now (we won’t need it in Heaven, I assure you!)
Deuteronomy 28:13a NIV
The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your
God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom.
And this is made possible by
Galatians 3:14a NIV
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus.
Are you a Gentile?
Are you redeemed by the Blood of Jesus?
Have you received the Blessing that is promised?
I am aware of
Matthew 6:19 NIV
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
But that is no reason to NOT seek God for financial blessing, especially if there is insufficiency in true respect.
However,
Matthew 19:21 NIV
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Not an easy task, unless that is your calling from God.
1 Corinthians 6:12 KJV
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient : all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
ie.. money
How complicated and confusing this can be made, and yet how simple it should be.
If only we accepted what Jesus and his apostles said as revealed through scripture there would be no confusion ro complication.
But that would mean accepting what they ACTUALLY said, in context, instead of quoting favoured parts that can be manipulated to mean what we prefer to hear.
Regarding “Faith”…
Where does our Christian, mountain-moving, supernatural faith come from?
Is there a difference between wishful thinking and the Biblical Faith?
Should we “drum up” faith? Should we interpret Scripture in such a way that we are responsible for coming up with enough faith?
Again, where does Christian Faith come from?
“Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.” (Heb. 12:2)
There is really not much we could possibly do without Him! (Jn. 15:5)
Faith always has a strong foundation, which is the Lord as its Author.
Faith is therefore closely connected to His Word. (In the beginning was the Word [Jesus].)
When Peter saw Jesus walk on water he did not quickly jump out of the boat, assuming, ASSUMING, that he could do the same. He first asked Jesus. And it was AFTER he heard Jesus’ Word and then also believed it that he stepped out unto the water.
“Yes Peter. C’mon out and walk over to me.” (Matt.14:29)
Biblical Faith will always have its roots in God, and it can never be viewed without Him.
“…for without me you can do NOTHING.” (John 15)
God told (Faith Word) Joshua how to tear down the walls of Jericho. Joshua heard God’s Word and then believed and obeyed. Elijah said that he had “done all these things at Thy Word.” (1Kings18:36)
Jesus Himself said that He only did what the Father told Him to. God’s Word (Faith) to us comes super-charged with a supernatural faith; a faith that can tear down the walls of Jericho, heal the sick and raise the dead.
It is NOT God’s authored faith when we read a biblical account and decide that WE should do that too.
One more faith example is found with Abraham and Sarah. Was it Abraham’s wishful thinking to have a child? Was it his flesh telling him that he would have a son?
God told (Faith Word) Abraham and Sarah that they would have a child. Their job was it to ask, receive His Word, believe His Word, and then to obey His Word.
This is the Faith that pleases Him when we don’t doubt the “Word” He speaks into our spirit.
It is imperative to know the difference between God’s Faith (His Word to us), the devil’s spirit voice and/or our old flesh voice.
Again, Jesus only did what the Father told Him to do!
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Faith comes from relationship.
The more we know God the more we understand His will and His ways. The more we know God the more our faith will be based on truth and what HE wants instead of our own ideas and desires.
Many have been taught we need power in order to do this or that, other have been taught they need faith in order to do this or that, but if one is willing to take a look at the life of Moses, Gideon, Abraham, Samson you being to realize it wasn’t power or faith by which they gained but by a dependency on God alone. God uses us in our weakness so that Jesus will get the glory. We have been taught to be strong in ourselves and avoid talking about inability, yet Jesus filled with the Holy Spirit walked into the cross in weakness so the God would get the glory by raising Him from the dead. For it is by grace you are saved and it is not of ourselves lest any man should boast. This is true fro salvation and it is also true with every aspect of Christian living
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight: Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed
Hebrews 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to please him. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
All of our faith, righteousness, sanctification, and the Holy Spirit, come from the Lord Jesus Christ. We have none of our own. No man can give you these things. They are a gift from God.
We must acquire faith, that comes from Christ, through the washing of the word. So if you need more faith, then you need to allow yourself to be washed by the word of God. You need to be immersed in God’s word. ( Baptise or Baptiso is Greek, the English definition of which is immerse)
FAITH: Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Then comes God’s righteousness, that we acquire by faith OF Jesus Christ.
RIGHTEOUSNESS: Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
You will notice in the verse below, it is Jesus that is washing us by his word.
SANCTIFICATION: Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
It is the washing by the word of God that gives us faith. The word and Jesus Christ are inseparable. So as we see, Jesus Christ is our everything. Our hope and faith is in the Lord.
In Christ,
Bruce.
Tim wrote:
Faith comes from relationship.
——————————————————————————
Sorry Tim. Not wanting to be picky, but in this case I think it is important to really take His “Word”…
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.” (Rom. 10:17)
Faith comes from Him as a Word, or a spiritually charged command, which we hear Him speak into our inner being, our spirit. At times He chose to audibly speak, but that was always the exception.
You are absolutely right that without a close relationship we would not be able to even hear His faith-word/command.
Jesus said He only did what He heard the Father tell Him to.
Jesus was obviously always first asking, then closely listening for an answer, and then believing and obeying whatever the Father told Him to do. And when God says to do something, that Word or command from Him has supernatural power. When we then obediently speak the Word into the natural situation it will literally do wonders, even healing the sick and raising the dead.
“Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.” (Heb. 12:2)
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
There are two things that seem to have been missed here.The first is back to the prosperity thing. Too many seem to be comparing themselves to what they see on their television screens which I think is the root of the problem.
If you live in a place where most people cannot afford shoes then if you do gain a pair of shoes you are well to do. If you get your hands on a bicycle as well then you are definitely rich and a snob compared to the rest of your community. But the guy with a working jalopy becomes obscenely wealthy to the point where he is no longer even in the same bracket as the common community. Even if the worn tires are stuffed with straw.
The point is to what do we compare ourselves when deciding if we are prosperous or not. Do we compare ourselves to the community around us or do we compare ourselves to where we were before the blessing. It would seem to me that most here in the west use what the marketing agents on the television screen tell us. Sorry but what I call yank prosperity is hollow, there will never be any contentment found there as the bar is always pushed higher. Wealth is what you need for your situation or circumstances so as to not be in want, not what gets marketed to you. At the moment I consider myself very prosperous but most on this continent would class me as lower middle or upper poor. I don’t care, I am very happy and very content with my situation. For the first time in a long time the stress level of where the next meal is coming from is gone.
And that, the last of the ten commandments is what got so many people into trouble and dept. Coveting the lives of the soap operas is the same as coveting what your neighbour has.
The second item is Faith. Faith does not stand on its own, you have to have faith in something. What do you put your faith in?
We talk of moving mountains. Look closer at that verse.
Now lets face it, can you or I move a mountain, NO!
So how does the mountain get moved?
God, the one that actually has the power is the one that will move the mountain for us.
Why?
Because we placed our faith in God and when we confronted the mountains in our circumstances we trusted God to back us up and make it all happen for us.
The thing is verse 22 is the qualifier that gets neglected so people think they have to develop their own faith like it is some kind of magical power that enables them to move the mountain in their own strength alone. What a load of baloney.
Yes Mario,
You are absolutely right. faith comes into our heart – and into our being – when God speaks into our heart.
Rom.10:17
” So then, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.”
The Greek word for “Word” used in Rom.10:17 is – Rhema -
……and hearing by the Rhema of God”.
Rhema refers to the Spoken or Uttered words of a person.
Not the printed word ( which is LOGOS )
There fore. We receive FAITH from God when we hear Him speak to us.
As Mario said – The prayer of FAITH which heals, and if you have FAITH as a mustard seed… which is to hear – and believe – and obey – God’s SPOKEN word. as explained by Jesus Himself brings the Supernatural Hand of God into the natural Earthly realm.
‘ …and nothing shall be impossible for you…
Also, we are saved by FAITH. God’s Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are the son’s of God.
FAITH is received by hearing and believing God’s Spoken Spirit voice.
God bless
David Marsh.
Actually reading back over the comments on faith here
Tim is actually the one that has it right, pay attention to him, he may be able to explain it better for some.
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Just who is it we are asking?
God of course!
The qualifier being that we are asking in our capacity as Christ’s body going about his business, not ours.
Dear Traveler
Mark 11:22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23 “Truly[f] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
You seem to be alluding to the fact that one only needs to have faith in or to have trust in God. Whilst this is definitely true many over look the way in which Jesus prayed when He was telling us these truths.
When Jesus was talking about praying, He was talking about the way He prayed. Jesus prayed by looking to the Father, asking but THEN HE LISTENED FOR WHAT THEFATHER HAD TO SAY.
He did nothing other than what the Father had Him say and what the Father had Him do.
Yes, by all means trust in God but the Faith that moves the mountains comes to us as is described in Rom 10 :17.
It comes to us according to Jesus pattern of praying, not ours.
God bless you
David Marsh.
David Marsh Wrote;
You are absolutely right. faith comes into our heart – and into our being – when God speaks into our heart.
Rom.10:17
” So then, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.”
The Greek word for “Word” used in Rom.10:17 is – Rhema -
……and hearing by the Rhema of God”.
Rhema refers to the Spoken or Uttered words of a person.
Not the printed word ( which is LOGOS )
This sounds like the rhema/logos deception that Kenneth Hagin and others promoted. This doctrine they promoted is the root of heresy that started the prosperity gospel.
That is taking Greek words and making them mean more then what they are saying.
The Bible says quite clearly that every man is dealt thee measure of faith. Every part of God’s Word is speaking to us and we cannot take certain parts and say we need additional revelation by God speaking them to us directly.
This is how these men try to justify the prosperity gospel. Saying they have a special word from God that gives them more faith to receive their material things.
This teaching promoted by Kenneth Hagin is heresy to say the least. We cannot twist Greek words to fit any pet peeve doctrine.
The Bible is of no private interpretation or message for some to receive their wealth and prosperity.
Tim wrote:
How complicated and confusing this can be made, and yet how simple it should be.
If only we accepted what Jesus and his apostles said as revealed through scripture there would be no confusion ro complication.
But that would mean accepting what they ACTUALLY said, in context, instead of quoting favoured parts that can be manipulated to mean what we prefer to hear.
I agree, this is how doctrinal error creeps into the church of Jesus Christ. They take certain words of scriptures and start giving them a deeper meaning. This way they can promote any doctrine they want.
For instance, the prosperity gospel can be justified by using greek and hebrew terms that sound real spiritual but they are pulled out of context to prove what a man has been teaching on. Take a dozen scriptures add a deeper Greek meaning and you can then pray for cadillacs, big houses, boats, cruises or you name it.
What is behind all of this teaching? Confusion!! While men desire wealth and materialism will buy into this type of teaching. They think in their minds that gain is godliness.
I know personally of situations where some thought if you was prosperous and wealthy you must be really close to God. This became a snare as the main pursuit in life was prestiage and wealth thinking they were pleasing God in whatever they did because money was flowing in.
This is the dark side of the prosperity message. Men live the way they want thinking God is approving all of their actions.
Jesus was teaching on straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few their be that find it.
Why do we not see Paul praying for fancy chariots so he go to other cities quicker to preach the Word? Probably because he was to busy teaching that there was another Jesus being propagated and he was warning the churches.
We do not see the Apostles teaching the message coming forth that we see being promoted in modern end of the age churches.
Look at Pauls letters and then look at the books these preachers today are selling. It is another message quite different from Paul’s letters.
It sounds like another gospel in other words!!
Again this is the dark side of the prosperity gospel.
Ibelieve wrote;
This sounds like the rhema/logos deception that Kenneth Hagin and others promoted. This doctrine they promoted is the root of heresy that started the prosperity gospel.
That is taking Greek words and making them mean more then what they are saying.
The Bible says quite clearly that every man is dealt thee measure of faith. Every part of God’s Word is speaking to us and we cannot take certain parts and say we need additional revelation by God speaking them to us directly.
This is how these men try to justify the prosperity gospel. Saying they have a special word from God that gives them more faith to receive their material things.
This teaching promoted by Kenneth Hagin is heresy to say the least. We cannot twist Greek words to fit any pet peeve doctrine.
The Bible is of no private interpretation or message for some to receive their wealth and prosperity.
Dear Ibelieve
You certainly have an issue with kenneth Hagin. I think it wiser to leave him alone and concentrate on what God says and what God says to you – through the Scripture.
Also, you should not take my word for the meanings of Rhema and logos. Please look up a good expository dictionary of bible words and look up the meaning of the scripture word ‘Word’ – which will be given as Rhema and logos.
You might also want to explore 2 Corinthians 3:6
“who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
Unless you seek the Lord’s guidance and revelation when reading the scripture or for the discernment of what others are claiming, then you will be on unsteady ground.
All ministry, including our own reading of Scripture, must be done with the active help of the Lord’s Spirit.
Otherwise you will be deceived by lies mixed with some truths.
God bless you Ibelieve
david Marsh
Chas351 said: King David, Job, Solomon etc.. were extravagantly rich and the New Testament says we are now Kings and Priests to rule & reign with Jesus,
*******************
David and Solomon had a purpose for being extravagantly rich. They had to build the temple of God.
We are seated with Jesus in the heavenlies, but that for sure doesn’t mean to pray it’s wealth down to earth. That means that we have the power through Christ for the functioning of spreading the gospel of Christ, and the working of the Body in teaching, ministering etc. That has nothing to do with advancing individual riches.
Paul preached the gospel in season and out of season. Which means he was consistent. Never gave up whether he was walking around in rags, or had a couple of cloaks to fall back on. He did not let the sway of wealth or the oppression of being poor alter his faith in the Lord. He kept on keeping on doing what the Lord had told him to.
About Faith….
• Christ Jesus said, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God.” – Matthew 4:4
To live by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God, one must have a continuous consistent relationship with God.
• So then FAITH comes by hearing, and hearing, by the word of God. – Romans 10:17
Scripture says that ‘FAITH comes by hearing’. Hearing what? Hearing the word of God, that is being spoken into our spirit. Unless God speaks His Word/promises to us directly to our spirit, the words that we hear, will never generate FAITH that will motivate us to take action.
There is an ocean of difference between me telling my children: ‘I love you’ and another telling my children: ‘your mum loves you’. Those who are NOT born of God and those who DO NOT have an ongoing relationship with God, will struggle with FAITH. ‘The Courage’ and ‘the Confidence’ to act based on instructions given, comes, when one hears directly from God. If I tell my children that they have the freedom to withdraw from my account according to their need; they will never hesitate to withdraw from my account as per their need. And, if ever, anybody tries to stop them or question them, they will reply confidently, ‘we have our mum’s word’. Similarly, we will be able to STAND only on those promises given in the Scripture, IF, it has been given to us personally by God Himself.
The Word of Faith preachers will tell us to ‘name and claim’ the promises given in the Scriptures. IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.
—————————————————————————————-
Going through all of the above comments, I strongly believe that each one of them is right in their understanding, when viewed from their individual perspective. As we move to to greater heights with God, we get a broader/wider view of things and a better understanding. To understand others better, we must first clean our filters. Clearing our filters with which we look at others, is a must, to see things clearly. Usually, people tend to view others from their tainted mirrors and end up judging others. That’s why Christ Jesus said:
• “Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” – Matthew 7:5
Our filters get tainted as we walk through this earth with people who are fallible. Also, if we are too full of our ‘SELF’ or if there is a ‘ROOT OF BITTERNESS’ that we carry in our heart, then, we lose the ability to see things ‘clearly’ and in ‘perspective’. We are called to die to our ‘SELF’, ‘DAILY’, to receive grace from God, each day of our life. Christ Jesus taught us to pray for our ‘DAILY BREAD’. ‘Give us today our daily bread’. What we gathered yesterday is not sufficient to meet the needs of ‘Today’. Therefore it is written, ‘Pursue peace with all men, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking diligently, lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; LEST ANY ROOT OF BITTERNESS SPRINGING UP CAUSE TROUBLE AND BY THIS MANY BECOME DEFILED.’ – Hebrew 12:14-15.
In Christ,
Sheeja
What difference a generation makes. I grew up where the emphasis was on how to live not on knowledge. Today this seems to be the reverse knowledge has become important and how to live has taken a back seat. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, the knowledge of God is therefore paramount. Obedience is greater than faith for the core of the scriptures is to set us free in order to obey God. faith has to do with obedience therefore no amount of knowledge will it for faith is an action word it is not passive but active.
Yes Ibelieve, there will always be those who are deceived by the devil and then go around deceiving others. However, it always takes two for it to work; the deceiver AND those who follow him.
If K. Hagin did not have followers ( i.e. supporters ) because they had a personal relationship with Jesus themselves whereby convicted of Haggin’s misrepresentation of Scripture, he might just be sitting in some office today with a regular job, pushing a pencil. Hagin might even have woken up from his deception if people would not have followed him.
It’s the followers who keep a deceived leader in bondage to the deception.
About faith…
It all starts with our salvation: …by grace through faith… i.e. through Jesus, because, “He is the Author and finisher of our faith.(Heb.12)
Without the Holy Spirit we could not even understand or comprehend the Scriptures because they would be foolishness to us. (1Cor.2:14)
The Bible says that “these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils…, lay hands on the sick to heal them…etc.” (Mk.16:17,18)
What does this now practically look like?
Do we just walk up to a sick person, lay hands on and they are healed? Sorry, tried that and it didn’t work. I’ve had migraines since about 40! years. I’ve gone up for prayer countless times. Nope, still got the migraines.
Again, these signs shall follow them that BELIEVE…(Mk.16:17,18)
How can we believe since we weren’t there when Jesus died and rose again? Why do we believe? Where does that faith to believe in an invisible God and a Jesus who died 2000 years ago come from?
Do we have to, somehow, come up with it? Do WE drum it up?
No, my friends. It’s never been about our human, filthy rags effort in the first place. It’s ALL about Jesus!
Our needed faith to believe that, 2000 years ago, there was a man who lived and died on a cross for our sins, and who then rose again, comes from Him. He alone gets ALL the Glory!
“Jesus, the Author… of our faith!” (Heb.12)
But now that we believe that Jesus is who He says He is, does that mean God just handed over His sovereignty and power to us so that we can run around, performing healings and other miracles?
(Simon the sorcerer comes to mind.)
God is still sovereign to decide what HE wants to do! The faith to do a certain task comes like a spiritually charged, supernatural tool to us, a tool from God.
Every time you want to heal someone you need to ask Him, who you already believe exists, for that specific “tool” (faith –word). God’s plans are not ours.(Isaiah) His ways are very different. Just because we believe in and on Jesus Christ doesn’t mean we are given a blank cheque by Him to do whatever WE think should be done.
Remembering that Jesus only did what the Father told Him to… (Ever wonder why He obviously still inquired…?)
Here is how it practically works:
Step 1:
God gives (Authors) the faith to believe that Jesus is real.
This is the faith that saves us.
Step 2:
Believing in and on Jesus, we now ask Him in prayer for certain things, believing that, according to His written Word, all things are possible…
Now we wait for Him to speak into our spirit about the situation. If it is His will to heal someone, He then gives us the spiritually charged, supernatural “tool” (faith word) to accomplish the healing in the natural.
Yes Tim, a deep and close relationship is a major key in hearing His voice and receiving His tools.
Jesus obviously did have that kind of a relationship with His Father.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Traveller said:
“Actually reading back over the comments on faith here
Tim is actually the one that has it right, pay attention to him, he may be able to explain it better for some.
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Just who is it we are asking?
God of course!
_______
And who or what are we believing?
I hope the answer is again; “God of course”.
The WOF/ Prosperity preachers teach that faith is a “force” that can be utilised by anyone – that it is faith itsefl that works results.
That is totally WRONG.
Our faith should be in SOMEONE – God.
Also Traveller’s quote from Matthew given above has the condtion of believing before we receive. James gives additonal insight.
” But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.”
see also Hebrews:
“But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him”
We can only ask in faith without doubt IF we are convinced that we are asking in accordance with what God is willing to give. If we are not sure of God’s willingness and His ability to give what we ask, we can never ask in faith with no doubt.
That certainty comes from knowing God – not with head knowledge, not with heads full of scriptural promises, it comes through continuiing relationship with Him by which we KNOW He is true to His word.
Also the matter of “logos” and “rhema” – the words mean more or less the same and are often interchanged in scripture. There’s nothing extra-special about “rhema”. It does not mean some kind of inspired word that gives more personal revelation than logos.
God’s most personal revelation was Jesus, who is described this way by John:
“In the beginning was the LOGOS, and the LOGOS was with God, and the LOGOS was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made…
And the LOGOS became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”
I do not make a distinction between the Rhema or the Logos- He is One and the same and will always agree and NEVER contradict.
Thanks Tim, I wrote the above before reading your last comment.
God bless you all!
David Marsh
Greetings
I do not want to debate or argue over doctrines that are considered heresy because this is not the place for a lengthy discussion as things get misconstrued in writing in a small comment section on the internet.
As for the man in question, the article above explains one area that he has had an impact in the world. We can see the fruit of this involving the man from Nigeria.
The problem we all must face as Christians is not to get caught up into mens personalities and doctrines if we can see that they were wrong in different areas.
It is not easy to find out that just maybe some things we were taught or hold on to was contrary to the doctrines of Christ.
We have to be willing to take a good hard look at what the Bible is saying and not what different personalities are making it say.
I hope this is understandable. Not trying to imply anything personal brother, that is why I include myself in this conversation. The church world is in a total mess because of so many false doctrines that have been brought in unawares.
In his last quote Tim did give the correct verses in the correct application and in the correct context. Thanks!
I would like to add though that for every promise of God there is also a requirement. This is consistent all the way back to the old covenant as well. Keep the old laws and statutes and the blessings follow. Cast aside the the old laws and statutes and the curse follows.
In the New covenant the laws are greatly reduced because of the operation of grace but the principle remains which is to be expected from a God that never changes.
In the new covenant we are given the great commission which is to take the gospel of salvation out to the ends of the earth. We are expected to be engaged in that endeavour in some way be it directly or in support. Just about all the promises are given in the presumption that this is our motivation. God never instructed us to use him to build up our own kingdoms using his name. He instructed us to build up his kingdom by lifting up the name of Jesus and leading the masses to him so that they can also be partakers of salvation through Christ’s atonement.
Take a second look at this verse;
Notice that they went off and did the thing that the Lord instructed them to do. Because they were engaged in their appointed work the signs and wonders and miracles followed so as to confirm the words the Apostles were preaching. The gifts of the spirit were given as tools to help in the work of establishing the church which was then presented to Christ as his bride. The Apostles never clung onto the churches they planted as if they were their own possession. They did not seek their own fame and glory they sort to make Jesus famous and the only way to be reconciled with God.
Going off at a tangent here. If gain and worldly riches is a sign of godliness then the Mafia and banksters must be hallowed saints because they have amassed great wealth. Now think logically, are we really supposed to be emulating and learning at the feet of types like that in order to get to God?
Now lets look at the modern prosperity doctrines on faith and compare it to what the occult teaches. In the occult the development of your powers of visualization is forefront. In a round about way and using Christian terminology we are being encouraged to develop our powers of visualization by calling it faith. The practitioners of the occult use this visualization to summon demons by means of their sigil’s to do their bidding. The demons are quite happy to pretend to be angles so long as it draws the deceived further from God. The sad thing is that the occult has been brought right into the church by being clouded in Christian terminology but the principles of operation remain the same.
The black witches are laughing their heads off as they have been moved into high positions of authority in many Christian denominations simple because the supernatural has been seen to operate through them. Of course they are not going to call it the doctrines of demons, they call it the move of the Spirit and they are quite happy to curse any that question them.
Understand this. There is nothing complicated regarding the real gospel of salvation and the operation of the gifts of the spirit. It is not achieved through any works of our own. It is simply a gift from God given freely to those that seek it with the right motives.
Trying to develop things in yourself starts moving into the realm of works to attain God through your own endeavours which obviously is not actually possible. We can only come to God with a humble hart and contrite spirit and accept his free gift to us through Christ Jesus. Embrace the Son and you receive the acceptance of the Father and the gifts of the Fathers spirit becomes our seal of acceptance. None of it is achieved through works of our own.
I am considered a “golden oldie” when questioned by young christians for under the influence of John Hagee, Kenneth Copeland, Morris Cerullo, Benny Hinn, and company who are in leadership of the Word of Faith Movement, these young folk are saying to justify the eroneous teachings, such as the prosperity doctrine, that God is doing something new in bringing about his Kingdom on earth. God is also singing new songs as depicted on stage at their gatherings when particular songs as “There is power in the Blood” are disgarded and said to be obsolete for the 21st century.
From what has been already shared, the christian church is in turmoil and in disarray and will remain that way until He comes.
Golden oldies like myself are pushed aside despite our wisdom and discernment, to include experience. Whilst remaining a pentecostal in faith, pentecostals who question movements such as the WoF Movement and where the Charismatic Movement is heading, again the explantions have been is that God is doing something new.
When non christians ask me about the shenanigans that is going on in the modern western christain church I have to say is non biblical and disgusting,having said that, I say that I am a member of the Body of Christ which is completely different. Then they are willing to hear the Good News of the Lord Jesus Christ and His return.
The tele evangalists and those running the so called christian tv channels are promoting themselves, using secular business techniques, allowing false teachings and prophecies in the midst, and of course are building their empires at the expense of fleecing the flock. The Lord Jesus never had security guards to protect His interests. But folk like Kenneth Copeland do in protecting their mansions and estates.
But what do people expect in living in the End Times? All such things will happen because christianity has been hijacked, the christian church has been infiltrated, and false doctrines are not only coming through the back door of churches but coming straight through front doors. And yes, the Lord Jesus is at the front door asking to come in but many church goers and ministers do not recognise Him and have turned Him away.
Churchianity and replaced Christianity and the Emerging Church will eventually lead to the False Church as described in the Book of Revelation. When Churches Together are embracing Islam and saying most religions lead to God, it is no wonder what will happen next which has already been prophesied in the Word of God, the Bible. His Word will be fulfilled whether christians believe this or not.
Maranatha!
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
About Law —-
Did Christ Jesus do away with the Law or did He belittle them? No! Christ Jesus came to magnify the law. Christ Jesus said:
• You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother WITHOUT A CAUSE shall be in danger of judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. – Matthew 5:21-22
• Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. – Matthew 5:19
How many opportunities were offered to Adam and Eve after their creation in the Garden of Eden to sin (to disobey the commands of God); and to the man gathering sticks on the Sabbath in the Old Testament (Numbers 15:32-36) to despise the commandment of God, and to Ananias and Sapphira in the New Testament (Acts 5:1-11) to lie to the Holy Spirit? Scripture declares:
• Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. – 1st Cor. 10:11
In Christ,
Sheeja
John and Traveler – you guys are right on the button. Part of the new church movement is also to deny the FALLING AWAY as we now have Kingdom now Theology that really departs from sound doctine blatantly. Apparantly the world is getting better and Christianity will just take over everything and usher in the kingdom. This is part of the prosperity doctrine that says we can have it all now. Think about it and you will see the link.
I dont have a problem with prosperity but the issue is a differnet gospel that shies away from biblical fundamentals and focuses on peripheral stuff and then ends up with all sorts of distortions including Joels army and Kingdom now theology.
I’m very familiar with Kingdom Now teachings and avoid it…hard to because it’s in nearly every church around here. Question?
Johan…you mentioned prosperity ‘gospel’ is connected with Kingdom Now teachings? Are they interlinked? I’ve always seen them as separate. I have no idea why…but I always have.
Meredeth,
at least here in the states, prosperity message , (charasmatics, and all the others involved) are unifying little by little w/ Kingdom now/ dominionism/Nar groups . They have been for a while now, and it is becoming more and more “acceptable” to folks as they become overloaded w/ more false teachings and delusions.
There was a time when P. King, T.Bentley and all the others, like B. Hinn etc.etc. were just false prophets , teachers and new age/mystical etc.etc. now they are forming and accepting “guest speakers” and other leaders to speak that are involved in all of this false theology. The streams have not all unified but they are all cords gathering together.
hope this answers your question.
hey here is another tidbit. If you go to Brannon Howse ‘s website “worldview weekend” he has some great articles on Kirk Cameron and G.Beck and how they are accepting the dominion theory. And “our forefathers” and the garbage David Barton put out that is not true about our founding fathers. They have been “prophecied over” by the NAR/Dominion groups and now many are accepting Mormons as Christians and are unifying .
Regarding Logos and Rhema
Is there no difference between God’s written Word and His specific Word spoken to a believer through His Holy Spirit?
The “Name-it-claim-it” (WoF) movement operates by taking what is written in Scripture and then saying “if we just drum up enough faith”…
People have died that way because they refused to see that God might use a medical doctor. “If only you come up with enough faith, then you’re gonna be healed. And if you’re not healed, it’s your own fault because you obviously didn’t come up with enough faith.”
Here we see how the focus and emphasis is on “man” and his abilities, or lack thereof, instead of on God.
The WoF friends and others seem to read the Bible as though it is a handbook of formulas that WE should apply in order to gain power and or some other benefit.
Is this how Jesus walked and did his work? Did he have a written list or just the old Scriptures telling Him exactly what to do, or did He constantly listen to the Holy Spirit for specific direction?
Although the recorded Scriptures will never contradict what the Holy Spirit is speaking, I think we can all agree that Scripture is much more general in comparison to a specific Word from the Holy Spirit in a specific situation.
That is why Jesus only did what the Father in each and every specific situation TOLD Him to.
“We can not please God by what we do for Him in our own human effort, we can only please Him by surrendering and letting Him work in and through our lives.” ~John Mulinde
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
Nicole,
If that is true about Kirk, then he needs our prayers. Thank-you for letting us know.
Sheeja John, Traveler, David Marsh, Meredith, Mario, so many of you…too many to mention or it would take up all this post, you are true Believers in daily persuit of His Living Word.
I had a dream in 1985 and can still remember it vividly, but words fail me to adiquitely describe it. I saw a heavenly host of angels filling the sky in off white, with Jesus Christ in unworldly gleeming white, in the foreground, descending toward earth, and just before I could see his face, His heavenly voice said, “I am coming soon”. At that moment I awoke and tried to go back to sleep so I could hear and see more. Couldn’t of course.
Being an eager beaver Christian in those days, I interpreted the “soon” to mean, just up the road a bit. Now that dream is more beautiful than ever these days, reminding me that His Word is perfect, not mine. I’ve told family and friends my dream, but never to a group. What’s being talked about on this site confirms what He said in the Bible and in that glorious dream…
Remember, ‘Spilled water on the ground cannot be gathered up again’, and, If He does not come soon, even the very elect may be fooled. Love to all of you. Joan
That eager beaver Christian in me, has become more grounded and less emotional.
Mario said: Regarding Logos and Rhema
Is there no difference between God’s written Word and His specific Word spoken to a believer through His Holy Spirit?
________
Yes, the Spirit does give specific directions and specific promises. But the labelling of these as “rhema” compared to a more general “logos” is a manmade idea not supported by scripture.
The idea is a spin-off from WOF.
The problem with the WOF approach to scripture is the ripping of scripture out of context – choosing individual statements/promises to apply to oneself when those statements in context have a very different application and intention.
That practice turns scripture into a spell book full of incantiations to be “confessed” to obtain desired results. That has nothing to do with either “logos” or rhema”.
“Scripture” is no longer the word of God when used for purposes that God did not intend.
Scripture’s focus is not upon man and how man can be blessed.
Scripture’s focus is not upon itself.
Scripture’s purpose is to point us to God, revealing what He is like and what His purposes are, revealing the way to relationship with Him through Jesus. When we are in relationship with Him we hear and recognise His voice.
Tim said…
“Yes, the Spirit does give specific directions and specific promises. But the labelling of these as “rhema” compared to a more general “logos” is a manmade idea not supported by scripture….
Tim, scripture itself says…
2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Scripture outside of His inspiration to the reader is deadly. (just as taking verses out of context is deadly)
So the written word as ‘Logos’ is not inferior but must have His Spirit to make it alive to the reader.
In the same was when He came as The Logos, He was not recognised as The Truth by the religious leaders because they were not given the grace by His Spirit, to see who He was.
I would then not be too quick to dismiss the distinction between Logos and Rhema just because a flawed movement like the WOF may have misused the truth of it.
Without Rhema we are unable to see the truth or hear the truth.
In Eph 6:17 we are to take the Sword of the Spirit which is the word of God.
This in the Greek is the Rhema of God and is not reference to the Bible as such, but rather a reference to the Word that He has revealed to us(by the breath of His Spirit) that we can stand on in confidence.
God prepared the (Coptic) Greek language to be able to convey these truths and the use of Logos and Rhema in scripture is very significant, distinctive, and certainly not man made.
Blessings
Carl E.
Carl said:
“I would then not be too quick to dismiss the distinction between Logos and Rhema “.
Carl you are missing the point. Scripture does not use the terms “logos” and “rhema” in the distinctively different way being claimed.
Yes, I totally agree that our understanding of scripture needs to be inspired by the Spirit.
But no, that inspiration is not a “rhema” word. It is merely God’s word (logos/rhema) given its true emphasis and meaning as intended by God.
Repeated from above take particualry note of “God’s most personal revelation”:
“…“logos” and “rhema” – the words mean more or less the same and are often interchanged in scripture. There’s nothing extra-special about “rhema”. It does not mean some kind of inspired word that gives more personal revelation than logos.
God’s most personal revelation was Jesus, who is described this way by John:
“In the beginning was the LOGOS, and the LOGOS was with God, and the LOGOS was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made…
And the LOGOS became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”
The falling away or apostasy has already happened. The word used for the falling away in the Greek is:
646. apostasia ap-os-tas-ee’-ah feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) (“apostasy”):–falling away, forsake.
Surely the 2.1 billion professing Christians cannot be true disciples of Jesus Christ can they? If they were then the whole world would know it!
John 13:34-35
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
HiTyrone,
I don’t see that the falling away “has happened” – I see it is HAPPENING and has been happening for a long time.
I think the terms “falling away” and “defection from the truth” seem to indicate something more than billions of people following a counterfeit version of “Christiantiy”.
To me they indicate people who once followed the truth have left the truth in which they once believed.
Not sure that would refer to 2.1 billion people professing to be Christians, many of whom have never really known Christ. I would see it as one time believers and groups of believers turning away from the genuine Christ they once followed to follow someone or something else.
The prosperity “gospel” is probably one example of how this is coming about but there are many other ways – tailored to suit a variety of theological tastes and temperaments.
there is no such thing as a prosperity gospel. that is a man made concept. there are preachers who preach verses from the Bible that prove that God can bless a person financially. some people have mis-labelled them as prosperity gospel preachers, however that is only 1 point of preaching. any preacher preaching Salvation is through Jesus Christ only, through the Blood of Jesus, by Faith, by the Grace and Love of God, and that the Bible is the true Word of God ‘may’ not be that bad as some are commenting here. notice all the comments on this forum… not many people agree with one another, which shows the state, todays church is really in = division.
regards Preachers with too much money>
Luke12:48b-53 For unto whomsoever much is given , of him shall be much required : and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
regards Division, Jesus said>
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I , if it be already kindled ? But I have a baptism to be baptized with ; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished ! Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided , three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
chas351 said:
“there are preachers who preach verses from the Bible that prove that God can bless a person financially. some people have mis-labelled them as prosperity gospel preachers”
————
The “Prosperity ‘gospel’ preachers” being referred to say that financial prosperity is the RIGHT of ALL believers.
It is not about the fact that God CAN bless a person financially – they preach that God WILL bless anyone financially as long as they follow certain “faith” actions.
That kind of teaching is totally false.
Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
***************
That is the context of “to whom much is given, much is required”
Not talking about riches there, but if the person is doing the will of God when Jesus returns. It is talking about spiritual gifts. What was done with the gifts the Lord has given. Were the gifts used for the purpose of the Kingdom of God or were they used to build the bank account for our own use.
Onesimus (Tim)
thank you for clarifying that.
so the way i see it: “anyone having faith, and putting it into action will be blessed” (that includes finances)
so the real question is about ‘faith’ , NOT a set of actions or formulae to receive, which is what i think you are saying these preachers preach
Michelle
then why does it also say” and to whom men have committed much”? that’s not gifts the Lord has given. it is from men.
anyway,, i think we all are having fun, reading the Bible & sharing our views in a respectable manner.
Proverbs 27:17 NIV
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
2Ti 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
2Ti 2:6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
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Commend, commit, and the word committed in Lk 12:48 come from the same Greek word:
G3908
παρατίθημι
paratithēmi
par-at-ith’-ay-mee
From G3844 and G5087; to place alongside, that is, present (food, truth); by implication to deposit (as a trust or for protection): – allege, commend, commit (the keeping of), put forth, set before.
No where in any of those passages is it talking about mammon. The concern is for the things that are needed to spread the gospel, and do the works of the Spirit. This is not an individual wealth matter, but a matter of the functioning of the Body of Christ.
Chas351 said: Onesimus (Tim)
thank you for clarifying that.
so the way i see it: “anyone having faith, and putting it into action will be blessed” (that includes finances)
__________
Chas – faith is not our decision about what we want or what we think God should do to bless us.
Faith is not a force to exercise.
It is not something we can direct to whatever WE want to achieve. Faith is our response to God and HIS will.
We can only ask in faith and expect to receive if:
1) We are REALLY asking according to God’s will
2) If we are totally convinced without doubting that we are asking according to God’ will
3) If our unwavering, non-doubting conviction is REALLY based on God’s will and not our own false assumptions
If God had promised to bless everyone financially then I’d agree with you. But he has not.
IF you consider every one of the favoured “prosperity” proof texts in their INTENDED context (that is see what they are actually saying and to whom) you will find there is absolutely no foundation for the belief that God promises to bless all believers with financial prosperity.
Dear Joan W,
You said,
Remember, ‘Spilled water on the ground cannot be gathered up again’, and, If He does not come soon, even the very elect may be fooled.
It confirms what has been in my spirit. But would you please elaborate on that. Thank you for those words.
In Christ,
Sheeja
With regards the distinction between the Rhema and Logos
If you look up those words in the bible and see where they are used you will find that they give absolutely no support to the doctrine that has been built up around them.
The whole doctrine is a false doctrine that is used to give credibility to to other false doctrines so as to make them appear correct. It just makes it easier for deceiving spirits to operate.
Rhema refers to a spoken or uttered word as in a recollection of what someone said.
Logos refers to a topic or subject.
So many get into trouble over spiritualizing something when there really is nothing extraordinary there to begin with. It all just religiosity stirring up trouble.
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.