-by Greg Gordon.
[Founder of Sermonindex.net]

1. The “church” at large has forgotten that the chief end of man is to glorify God. (Rom 16:27; 1Cor 6:20; Mt 6:9; 1Cor 10:31)

2. Christians ignore most of the methods, practices and principles found in the book of Acts. (Acts 2:42,44; Acts 2:46; Acts 2:38)

3. Many treat “church” like any other social club or sports event that they might attend. (Acts 2:46; Heb 10:25; Acts 1:14)

4. We’ve made Christianity about the individual rather than the community of believers. (Rom 12:5; 1Cor 12:12; 2Tim 4:16)

5. In most “churches” the priesthood of all believers isn’t acknowledged and the role of pastor is abused. (1Pt 2:9; 1Cor 12:12; Eph 4:11-13)

6. The “church” as a whole has lost the concept of their being grafted into the promises given to Israel. (Rom 11:15, 17-18, 20, 25)

7. There needs to be a recovery of teaching the whole counsel of God, especially in expository form. (Acts 20:27; 1Tim 4:6, 2Tim 2:15)

8. We take it too lightly that we have the blessing and honor of having God’s Scriptures in our possession. (Ps 119:16; Acts 13:44; Neh 8:9)

9. There has never been more access to the Word of God, yet so little reading of it. (1Tim 4:13; Neh 8:1-3; Ps 119:59)

10. Some read the Scriptures to attain knowledge, but do not practice what they read. (Jam 1:22; Mt 7:21; 3Jn 4)

11. Worship has become an idol in many “churches”. The music often resembles that of the world. (Amos 5:23; Phil 4:8; 1Jn 5:21)

12. The world is shaping the views of the “church” more than the “church” shaping the world. (Rom 12:2; Mt 5:13; 1Cor 1:22-23)

13. The “church” spends more money on dog food than on missions. (2Cor 9:6; Lk 21:2; Acts 4:34-35)

14. We take lightly the cost of discipleship laid out by Jesus Christ and do not deny our lives. (Lk 14:33; Lk 14:26-27; Mt 8:19-20)

15. There is a lack of true discipleship and making others to be obedient disciples. (Mt 28:20; 2Tim 2:2; 2Tim 2:14)

16. Many subscribe to the error that parts of life are to be spiritual while others are to be secular. (1Pt 4:2; Col 3:3; 1Jn 2:6)

17. Modern Christians often find Jesus’ command to sacrifice and serve abhorrent. (Phil 2:21; Jam 3:16; Rom 12:1-2)

18. Self disciplines in the Christian life such as fasting and praying are considered legalistic. (2Tim 2:21; 2Tim 1:8; Mt 6:17)

19. Little thought and contemplation is put towards the lostness of men, the seriousness of the Gospel. (Phil 3:8; Gal 2:20; Heb 10:34)

20. We are living with an epidemic of cheap grace with flippant confession and shallow consecration. (Lk 14:28-30; Lk 14:26; Jam 4:8)

21. Since the inception of the Church, the Gospel had the requirements of repentance and discipleship. (Acts 2:38; Lk 14:26; Jn 8:31)

22. Now forgiveness is offered without repentance, discipleship without obedience, salvation without sanctity. (Heb 10:29; 4:11; Lk 13:24)

23. Introspection, counting the cost, godly sorrow over sin, are all foreign to many in the “church”. (Acts 2:37; Ps 119:9; Heb 6:1-2)

24. The modern church loves itself more than its neighbor. (1Cor 3:3; Gal 5:13; Phil 2:3)

25. The church must repent of its idolization of personality, and of business principles. (2Cor 2:17; 1Cor 3:5; 1Cor 12:23)

26. Many elders and pastors of the “church” sadly are fleecing the flock to supply their own wants. (Jn 10:12-13; 1Pt 5:2-3; Rev 2:15)

27. The qualities most in demand in today’s pastorate are frequently foreign to the Scriptures. (1Tim 3:2-3; 1Tim 3:5; 1Tim 1:5-7)

28. The professionalization of the pastorate is a sin and needs to be repented of. (2Cor 11:13; Gal 3:1; Gal 2:6)

29. There must be repentance for the ambitious desire and idolization of the celebrity pastorate. (3Jn 9; Jer 17:5; 1Cor 12:22)

30. Pastors must trust the Spirit, not statistics. (2Sam 24:1; 1Cor 1:25; Rom 8:14)

31. Modern day prophets are being stoned by criticism and neglect. (2Tim 4:3-4; Gal 1:10; Jer 1:7-8)

32. God’s prophets are ill-treated and shunned by most “christians” considered too harsh or extreme. (Jer 6:10; Isa 6:9-10; Gal 4:16)

33. The prophets prophesy falsely, priests rule by their own power; and my people love to have it so. (Mt 24:4, 11-12; 1Cor 1:19, Jude 8 )

34. There are many false gospels being preached from pulpits in our day. (2Cor 11:4; Gal 1:8-9; Jude 16)

35. There is an epidemic of a “mock” salvation message. It is correct in doctrine, but false in reality. (2Cor 3:6; 1Jn 5:11-12; Rom 8:9)

36. A salvation that does not make men holy is trusted in by a deceived multitude. (Jude 4; Rom 8:1; Rom 6:17-18)

37. There is a needed perseverance in the truths of the Gospel without unbelief. (Eph 1:1; Heb 6:11-12; Heb 10:26-27)

38. A great need is to see “christians” become saints in actual experience. (1Jn 2:29; Col 3:5-8; Tit 3:8)

39. Many professors of religion are forbidding people to be a part of the holy body of Christ. (Mt 23:13; Ps 119:1-2; 2Pt 1:3-4)

40. Preaching has become all about the happiness of man and not the glory of God. (Jn 6:26; Rom 4:20; 1Pt 4:11)

41. Preachers give smooth words to entice men, yet very few give any words of correction or rebuke. (Jer 6:14; Pro 1:23; 1Tim 5:20)

42. Run from gospels that focus on our success and prosperity in the name of Jesus Christ. (Jn 2:16; Acts 20:33; Jer 6:13)

43. Run from gospels that focus on self-improvement. (1Tim 6:5; Heb 12:14; Jam 4:14)

44. Run from churches where men, and not Christ, are glorified. (Col 1:18; Jude 25; Jn 16:14)

45. Run from churches where there is no Bible, no cross, no mention of the blood of Christ. (1Pt 1:18-19; Eph 3:13; Rev 1:5)

46. Run from churches where the worship leaves you cold, where there’s no sense of God’s presence. (1Cor 5:4; Ps 80:14-15; Jer 12:11)

47. Run from churches where you’re comfortable in your sin. (1Cor 14:25; Heb 10:30-31; Heb 4:13)

48. Run from churches that use the pulpit of God for a personal agenda. (Jude 10-11,19; 3Jn 9)

49. Run from those who preach division between races and cultures. (Jam 2:4, Gal 3:28, Rev 5:9)

50. Run from ungodly, spasmodic movements and endless empty prophesying. (Jer 5:13; 1Cor 14:33, 1Jn 2:16)

51. Run from preachers who tell mostly stories and jokes. (Eph 5:4; Tit 1:8; 2:12)

52. Run from those that are only after money, who use one gimmick after another to get your money. (2Pt 2:3; 2Cor 12:14; 1Cor 9:18)

53. The phrase “accept Jesus as your personal Saviour” is not found in the Scriptures. (Rom 10:9-10; Col 1:13; Acts 26:20)

54. Evidence of true conversion does not seem important to modern day Christians. (1Jn 2:6; 1Jn 4:17; Mt 7:20)

55. Thousands of sinners think of God as having only one attribute: Love! But they continue in sin. (Rom 1:18; Acts 5:11; Ps 2:12)

56. “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life!” has hindered true evangelism. (Rom 3:19; Acts 26:18; Phil 3:18-21)

57. A Gospel of love and grace only, without the law of God being preached. This is a doctrine of Satan. (2Tim 4:3-4; Rom 2:4-5; 3:19)

58. There has clearly arisen a careless mixture of 20th century reasoning with God’s revelation. (Col 2:8; Rom 1:25; Gal 1:6)

59. Decisionism and the “sinner’s prayer” has been a major cause of false conversions in the “church”. (2Pt 2:1-2; Eph 2:4-5; 2Cor 5:17-18)

60. Many will be surprised to hear Jesus say, “I never knew you, depart from me.” (Mt 7:22-23; 1Cor 6:9-10; Gal 5:19-21)

61. Men have taken the place of the Holy Spirit in confirming men in their supposed salvation. (1Jn 2:3-5; 2Ths 1:8; Gal 6:12-15)

62. The doctrine of hell and eternal suffering is something little grasped by most professing “christians”. (Mt 13:42; Jam 5:1; Ps 9:17)

63. The judgment seat of Christ is perhaps one of the most neglected topics in the modern pulpit. (2Cor 5:10; Rom 14:10; 1Cor 3:13)

64. The second coming of Christ needs to be re-instated as the church’s general thrust and burden. (1Jn 3:2-3; Col 3:4-6; 1Ths 4:14-17)

65. The church has lost the fear of God and has over emphasized the love of God. (Heb 12:28-29; Lk 12:5; Heb 10:31)

66. The church has left evangelism to a few trained professionals. (Acts 8:1,4; Acts 4:29; Rom 10:14)

67. Repentance is considered a one-time act in modern evangelism rather than a way of life. (Rev 3:19; Heb 12:17; 2Pt 3:9)

68. The Lordship of Jesus Christ is something that is not taught in many pulpits. (Acts 2:36; 1Cor 12:3; Rom 6:18)

69. Many in “churches” are not open to correction, church discipline or rebuke. (1Cor 5:5; 1Cor 11:31-32; Heb 12:7-9)

70. Some preach salvation as a theory instead of persuading men to come to Christ. (Jn 5:40; Col 1:28; 2Cor 4:5)

71. There has been a loss of the fullness and majesty of the gospel. (1Tim 1:11; Jude 25; Rom 15:29)

72. There is little mention of sin or the depravity of man from “church” pulpits. (Jn 3:20; Gal 5:19-21; Eph 5:5)

73. Covetousness, consumerism, and coddling of the world’s goods does not appear wrong. (Jer 22:17; 1Jn 2:15-16; 1Tim 3:3)

74. Little is made of the resurrection of Jesus Christ in churches or in evangelism. (1Cor 15:14-15; Acts 4:10, 33)

75. The “church” has relied more on technology than God. (Zech 4:6; 1Cor 1:21; 2:4)

76. The prayer meeting is considered one of the least important meetings in the “church”. (1Tim 2:1; Acts 4:31; Phil 4:6)

77. Pastors have never prayed less than they do in the “church” today. (Jer 10:21; Phil 2:21; Eph 6:18-19)

78. Very few are waiting on God for His direction and purpose for His Church. (Eph 1:11; Ps 37:7; Isa 40:31)

79. The “church” has many organizers, but few agonizers. (Phil 3:18-19; Rom 9:1-3; Jer 9:1)

80. We need to have the gifts of the Spirit restored again to the “church”. (2Tim 4:2; 1Cor 14:39; 1Cor 12:31)

81. A serious, sober, self-controlled Christianity is very seldom found or preached. (2Pt 3:11; 1Pt 4:7; Jude 3)

82. The “church” at large has forgotten how to pray. (1Jn 3:22; Acts 6:4; 1Ths 5:17)

83. Many “churches” are more dependent on tradition than the leading of the Holy Spirit. (Mk 7:13; Acts 16:6; Acts 13:2)

84. Multitudes of professors preach and teach: that you cannot be freed from sin. (Rom 16:18; Rom 6:1-2; 2Pt 2:1)

85. The Apostles and Christ always preached the possibility to walk free from sin. (Tit 2:11-12; 1Pt 1:14-16; Rom 6:19)

86. Sinners are not saved to sin, but rather, saved to holiness and good works. (Rom 6:13; Eph 2:10; 2Pt 3:14)

87. Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. (2Tim 2:19; 1Pt 4:17-18; 2Tim 3:12)

88. A baptism of holiness, a demonstration of godly living is the crying need of our day. (1Tim 6:3; 2Ths 3:6; 2Ths 2:13)

89. Many are confused about obedience, and good works that are readily mentioned in the Scriptures. (Tit 3:8; Jn 10:32; Rev 3:15)

90. Little emphasis is put on the plan of God to make us like Jesus Christ in “churches”. (1Pt 1:14-16; 1Jn 2:6; 1Pt 4:1)

91. Christ did not die on the cross to obtain a worldly “church” but for a “glorious Church.” (Eph 5:27; Tit 2:14; Col 4:12)

92. Christ does not come into an unregenerate and impure heart as many contemporary theologians say. (2Cor 5:17; Mt 5:8; Eze 18:31)

93. A holy Church is God’s blessing to the world; an unholy “church” is God’s judgment upon the world. (Mt 5:14,16; Eph 4:1; 1Ths 2:12)

94. If Christianity is to make any headway in the present time, it must be proved to be more than a theory. (2Ths 3:6-7; 1Ths 4:1,11-12)

95. Unbelief has gagged and bound us as risen Lazarus! We need release in this final hour! (Heb 3:12-14; 1Cor 3:21-23; Heb 11:6)

-Official website for the theses-



Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on November 10th, 2010 at 4:59 pm.


178 Replies

  1. Linda Reid Nov 10th 2010

    I am so glad and encouraged to read these that I could weep; I am not weeping, just a little moisture in the eyes, but may be back soon to read them again.

  2. Charlotte Mecklenburg Nov 10th 2010

    #6 needs a bit of correction
    Talking about the descendants of Abraham in Romans 11 the Gentiles are grafted into his tree. And Ephesians 2:11 we become citizens of Israel through the blood of Yeshua. Citizens of any land are individuals, so the church is not grafted into anything including promises.

    Glad to see that you are including that if we do not have the law, we do not know what sin is.

    #66 true evangelism is walking as Yeshua walked. A huge subject about the gift he gave so that he could live his life again in us.

    Thank you for your Thesis. Charlotte

  3. Richard Hardy Nov 10th 2010

    This is a wonderful assessment from the perspective of a man… not meaning aspersions of criticism of any kind.But I did notice one thing that appears to be missing from perhaps the Eternal One’s assessment….
    Doesn’t appear to be any link to or word from YHVH’s perspective…. it seems that none of these theses have much merit except as they pertain to a call to a return to covenant with YHVH through Yahushua /Jesus as the apostolic writings speak.
    Did not Yahushua proclaim a proper witness and keeping of YHVH’s commandments based upon a better sacrifice…. for if this is not the foundation…no amount of soul searching will lead one to rediscover that sin is a transgression of God’s torah/Law and no preaching etc has any eternal merit unless assessed from this position.
    Did not John the Baptist prepare the way of YHVH which allowed the revelation of the covenant of YHVH extended to all humankind through the Lamb of God?
    Did not Yahushua proclaim the good news from John onward the reconciliation of first IsraelJews of the day and then to include a remnant of all nations under the same renewed covenant of YHVH through Yahushua… ?
    Without this treatise starting from the root… though pertinent it will not convict believers to the point that will convert all in this day.
    Well that is my position as a messianic believer in Yahushua who came to bind us all in covenant as one renewed Israel under God by which the Sovereign Spirit of YHVH spoke through Yahushua…
    Sadly it appears to me that the Holy Spirit FROM YHVH even as the Spirit of Messiah is from YHVH even as we are ministered to by the spirit of YHVH that was upon Messiah himself may not be the Biblical Spirit of YHVH(the LORD) that many try to purport today….so may it be YHVH’ s will that all who read may ponder…
    May he the Blessed one of YHVH ,Yahushua, open all our eyes to the root of all failure as sin towards him …the Only True God and Messiah Yahushua who came in his name…
    May each be blessed as we ponder…

  4. Lucille Nov 10th 2010

    Some of Greg Gordon’s statements are not correct. Many are false and some even border on unsound doctrine.

    He says that there is no accept Jesus as your personal Saviour in the Bible. So what? Neither is the word “rapture” or “battle of Armageddon” or other terms we use in Christendom. But they are real.

    One must have Christ or else when he dies, he will be forever separated from God. That is what death means, eternal separation from God. And his destiny will be hell.

    Christ does come into an unrepentant heart. We come to Jesus just as we are.

    We are born in sin and shapen in iniquity, David penned for us. Read Psalm 51. We are born dead. We may have breath and we are a living a soul (physically) at birth but the human spirit is dead, dead to God, who is Spirit. John Chapter 4 tells us that “God is Spirit…”

    For a person to have connection with Him who is Spirit, one must be born again (spiritually). And Jesus is the mediator for that connection. Having Christ in the heart is the only way to be born again.

    And there is no such thing as sinless perfection. That’s a lie, straight from the pit of hell.

  5. Ken Arrand Nov 10th 2010

    This shows that a great deal is not right in the established church structure and elsewhere (!) in the Body of Christ!

    I would have liked to have seen a point saying:

    We, the Body of Christ, are to have our eyes on Jesus Christ, our thoughts on Him and our desire for Him only. Points 44 and 68 miss the point. Jesus Christ is to be our life! HE is to be the centre of all we are and do. In HIM we live and move and have our being!

    A useful summary. Thank you!

  6. Strong stuff…but sadly extremely accurate

  7. What is WRONG with us is that we do not live Jesus’ words as stated in Luke 6:27-49. We have built our foundation on sand, because we have heard Jesus’ words or read them or both over and over and over again, and do NOT put them into practice. Some of them, sure, but only once in a while. Worship is a lifestyle, not something we do on Sunday and Wednesdays.

    Since becoming a Christian, the main thing I have noticed over the years about “believers,” or should I say churchgoers, is that they are hypersensitive. They get their panties in a twist over the most ridiculous, idiotic things. Every, EVERY, single church I have been in (we move around because my husband is in the resort business) has had at least one if not more church splits. EVERY ONE! That would be 7 churches. We never left any of them but got left by people who had some kind of authority issue and got offended – blah blah blah. It’s so frustrating to be in churches these days because you can’t really act like you would with your family because you might inadvertently “offend” someone. It’s all walking on eggs because we don’t live by Jesus’ words. We make our own church families our enemies. THIS is what is killing the church and ONLY THIS. Not all your 95 whatevers. It’s one thing and one thing only – we do not obey Christ – we do not live by His words. If we did, we would be in great shape as the church.

  8. Sharon Nov 10th 2010

    Yes Mary, I agree with that. So many groups or churches are just little power struggles over who is boss of who. So sad.
    If you try to be real and honest with the ‘members’ they act like that is very strange.
    I pray for the body of Christ to be delivered from all this.

  9. Steven Absher Nov 10th 2010

    Edited 95 Theses: I offer these additions and changes;

    *5. In most “churches” the priesthood of all believers isn’t acknowledged and the 5-fold Ministry is abused. (1Pt 2:9; 1Cor 12:12; Eph 4:11-13)

    *13. A sign of our love for the lost the “church” spends more money on dog food than on missions. (2Cor 9:6; Lk 21:2; Acts 4:34-35)

    *27. The qualities demanded in Scripture are frequently foreign to today’s pastorate. (1Tim 3:2-3; 1Tim 3:5; 1Tim 1:5-7)

    *28. The professionalization of the 5- fold Ministry is a sin and needs to be repented of. (2Cor 11:13; Gal 3:1; Gal 2:6)

    *29. There must be repentance for the ambitious desire and idolization of the celebrity 5- fold Ministry. (3Jn 9; Jer 17:5; 1Cor 12:22)

    *30. All Ministry must trust the Spirit, not statistics. (2Sam 24:1; 1Cor 1:25; Rom 8:14)

    *31. Many modern day prophets are giving a Massage rather than a Message. (2Tim 4:3-4; Gal 1:10; Jer 1:7-8)

    *39. Many professors of religion are blind to people being a part of the holy body of Christ. (Mt 23:13; Ps 119:1-2; 2Pt 1:3-4)

    *53. The phrase “accept Jesus as your personal Saviour and not as Lord of your life” is not found in the Scriptures. (Rom 10:9-10; Col 1:13; Acts 26:20)

    *56. “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life! And no Cross” has hindered true evangelism. (Rom 3:19; Acts 26:18; Phil 3:18-21)

    *59. Decisionism and the “sinner’s prayer” as an end and not a beginning has been a major cause of false conversions in the “church”. (2Pt 2:1-2; Eph 2:4-5; 2Cor 5:17-18)

    *64. The “Kingdom of God” and second coming of Christ needs to be re-instated as the church’s general thrust and burden. (1Jn 3:2-3; Col 3:4-6; 1Ths 4:14-17)

    *74. Little is made of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and Apologetics in general in churches or in evangelism. (1Cor 15:14-15; Acts 4:10, 33)

    *90. Little emphasis is put on the plan of God to make us like Jesus Christ, ”Christians = little Christs” in “churches”. (Acts 11: 26, 1Pt 1:14-16; 1Jn 2:6; 1Pt 4:1)

  10. Len Lipcsik Nov 10th 2010

    #90 To become “like Christ” is not the same as having His life living through us. Those who have not had a revelation of who is living within them hinders that life from being lived. Gods goal is not to make us “like Christ” but to kill all that controls us (through accepting the work of Calvary and the grave) so that His life can be lived freely through us (through the work of the resurrection). The notion to become like Christ is to put to emphasis on me rather than on Christ. (2 cor 3:5; Gal 2:20; Phil 2:13; 3:3)

  11. Loretta Nov 10th 2010

    Without going into all the specifics of all the doctrines addressed in this thesis, as a former “Modern Evangelical” of 26 years, I just so appreciate that the subject of these many issues within this movement (for lack of a better word) are even being brought up and put on the table at all. There are many many traditions, doctrines, etc, that I no longer ascribe to at all. Now I don’t want a label (other than a sheep or a pilgrim), and I just want to be led by the Lamb. He is faithful to teach us Himself by the Spirit.
    love, Loretta

  12. These 95 points are very good; and ‘right on’. But it has been my experience that if these things were spoken of in a church; the very people who are guilty of such spiritual corruption spoken of, would be the first ones to raise their hands and say “Amen, brother!”
    They do not see themselves. And if someone holds up a mirror before them they fail to see their own image. That’s what blindness does…it blinds. It puzzles me but how can people, living in obvious sin, stand up and call themselves Christians? And they’re serious!

  13. Nevile Salvetti Nov 11th 2010

    The church has forgotten the Kingdom and its authoirty over Satan
    When it finds these afgain it will finds it true place in this world

  14. I read these to my wife just now and we both came away feeling these theses hit spot on. However, I am concerned that so many times rebukes often say the right thing but don’t get home into the hearts and minds of the people who usually think they have understood.

    The reason I say this is man’s tendency to flip flop between practical heresies or idoltaries on opposite sides where God’s way is dead center in the middle. And then the other mistake is to make an idol of being dead center to avoid the idolatries on both extremes. And what you end up with in the end is an idolatrous commitment to some arbitrary position rather than an intimacy and seeking after God. It’s like having a factory producing compasses glued to North, South, East, West and arguing over which compass is best when none of them are. The only compass worth having is one that actually tells you where North, South, East, and West are.

    Relating this to church, we have one church that says God’s way is to be “cool”, “avant garde”, “awesome”, “relevant”, “seeker friendly”. Another church says, “Gimme that old time religion”, “God’s music is country music”, “Hymns only”, “No instruments”, “suits and ties”, “Jesus was informal”, “Dresses only”, “Come as you are”.

    We’re caught up in mandates that don’t come from God and have nothing to do with God’s heart or will or commandments, and it gets so bad that we will disobey God directly to obey our traditions, and that’s Satanic.

    We chase the children out of church so we can “feel” holy, but we’re as Satanic as the devil when we disobey Jesus’ direct command to “Let the children come unto Me and do not forbid them..”. Look, if our relationship with God is right, we should have plenty of time in our lives to spend with God, to get intimate with God in prayer, and then when it is time to minister to others, we actually have something to share. That’s entirely different from living for the devil six days of the week and coming into church and demanding that everyone else shut up and comply and color the carpets to your arrogant demands since you were good enough to give your donations.

    We really need to learn what it means to be Christian Christians instead of Satanic, lying, arrogant, foolish, irresponsible, reprehensible, cowardly, wimpy, fake, hypocritical Christians.

    So often we fight to the death to defend our sins but have no sensitivity at all for the heart of Christ simply because we’re not tied into Christ, and that needs to change. But, it won’t change until we choose this day who we will serve-God or Satan.

    There are servants of Satan, and it should be no suprise they would lie and call themselves Christians. Really. Can you think of any reason why this should be a surprise to us? It should be a no-brainer. Satan comes as an angel of light. In fact, the old testament even called him Lucifer, and the “Luc” part of that says, “Light”. It’s his name. It’s who he is. He’s not a horrible looking, creepy horned red figure with warts and a red forked tail. He was one of the most beautiful of the angels puffed up with pride and fallen. And who do you think is the master of defending sin? Do you want to be like him?

    Think about what it says when we say man cannot avoid sin. It puts the blame back onto God as the author of our sin. The the very scriptures in Romans 7 which were used to rebuke that arrogant blamecasting is turned around and used to rebuke the person who objects to the defense of sin. Imagine that? How can we resist God? Ha. You think God forces sin upon us so that we cannot help ourselves? Do you think Romans 7 is there to defend God’s right to force sin upon us as the author of our sin while telling us we have no right to criticize Him for promoting and forcing sin upon us, that we have to take blame for what God has forced upon us? Do you think God was lying when He said “My grace is sufficient for you?” NO. But, if not, then what about the verse that says if we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us…but if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness?

    There is so much entanglement and confusion when you take God’s Word and wrestle and twist it to make it say what you want it to say. But, it’s simple when you take it in context and seek God’s leading and Holy Spirit to open your mind as you read it.

    God is NOT the author of our sin. The rebuke is for those who claim we cannot avoid sin, for those who claim God’s grace is not sufficient, who turn and blame God for their own sins and credit themselves with humility. The rebuke is for the person making excuses not to give up sin, and for the person who would rather judge God wrong than take responsibility for their on decision to turn against God. It’s a rebuke of hypocrisy, blame casting, excuse making and throwing up objections for refusing to surrender to God.

    If we cannot avoid sin and God commands us to give it up under pain of eternal hellfire and brimstone, then that means God is akin to the man who throws his dog into the fire for failing to recite all the works of Shakespeare known and unknown on command. But, much worse. The dog would suffer momentarily while the sinner would suffer infinitely and eternally. That is unjust. And if you turn and use Romans 7 on me, God will turn and use Romans 7 on you saying it is you and not me who accuse God. No. God did not reserve the right for Himself to create us incapable of avoiding sin. God did not reserve for Himself the right to be the author of sin. God did not reserve for Himself the right to bring about a Satanic and twisted theology that would make those responsible for choices they were powerless to make. God did not reserve for Himself the right to lie and put blame for the sin He forced upon the victims of His force. And God did not reserve for Himself the right to rebuke us for exposing His sins because God has never sinned in this way. God is holy. God is just. God is honest. God is entirely perfectly so. God has never, ever in all eternity ever committed one sin ever and has never, ever made a single second-best decision. He has never operated in ignorance or foolishness and has never lacked any wisdom ever. God has never provided insufficient grace. God has never forced sin upon any unwilling person and every sin that has ever been committed has been done by the choice of the person committing that sin. Our guilt for our sin is ours and ours alone.

    So, if we say we have no sin, we are in trouble. But, read the next sentence. It says if we confess our sins, God will be faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Don’t add, “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow” to that scripture. It isn’t there. It doesn’t mean we can rattle off a prayer and have our risk of hellfire extinguished forever even if we live for the devil. It doesn’t mean we can say, “Yeah, I sinned, so what of it Bud?” Confessing is claiming, owning, taking responsibility for one’s decisions and admitting that it wasn’t a mere mistake. It was a bad decision made from a corrupt heart. It’s saying, “My motives were not good–they were filthy and evil.”

    Then God can cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That means we confess our sins, and we get cleansed from them and don’t have them on our record against us any more. That does not mean we get our ticket to heaven and can live for the devil now.

  15. John Rauch---TheHandHillsInvnetor Nov 11th 2010

    This about the state of the Church is RIGHT on target. With the loss of my wife I have experinced some of these points first hand. I have been scorned about the comming Kingdom by of all so called self-righteous Chirstians who maintain “No body knows the time or the hour” which when you know Hebrew roots is an exact time we must find.

  16. Dear Greg Gordon:

    You know the truth of what you say, because it comes from the Word of God, and from the heart of the Father. You need no affirmation from me.

    These “points” which you have made are made over and over again in Scripture. God never changes, it is us, it is the church organizations and traditions, it is our error that changes and takes many forms, as it has through the centuries. You, as those of us called to be prophets all must, are speaking what God shows you by the Holy Spirit is and always has been the Way.

    When Jesus spoke, men and women around him analyzed, questioned, and even rebuked Him. Yet He never backed down from what the Father gave Him to say and do. We must never back down, no matter the cost. And part of the cost is to hear the religious rebuke from those caught up either in Judaism or in Christianity, rather than in Christ. Continue the good work God has called you to do.

    Let us never forget that the Son of God was crucified, not by the Romans, or by the atheistic intellectuals, but by the religious Jews, those who considered themselves holy and righteous because of their adherence to what they considered to be God’s law. So they killed the prophets, as Jesus pointed out. And so these religious descendants of those same pious, religious people will try to kill any who carry on Christ’s work and Word by the power of the Spirit.

    On my blog, which correlates and expands upon many of the points in your Thesis for the Modern Churches, I have had the same variety of opinions. And some attacks, because the fear of the religious is that their Lord Jesus may actually require them to be 100% disciples instead of just faithful religious adherents to codes, systems, and creeds.

    Keep on keeping on with Christ,
    A. Brother

  17. I have larger issues than these with the modern “church”. For the last 1700 years this false “church” has been wedded to paganism. This “church” profanes the Biblical Sabbath and refuses to observe God’s Holy Convocations. maybe only Richard Hardy may understand what I mean and some of these “theses’ are Biblically incorrect too; let’s be careful spreading this thing around.

  18. Andrew Nov 11th 2010

    Please don’t start with the “Sabbath” thing here, Kalev.

    Truly off topic, my friend – and it has been beaten to death on the Forum.

    God bless you!


  19. http://www.inthatdayteachings.com/oldhomepagea/25theses.html

    25 Theses for Christian Church Leaders

  20. Stella Carabajal Nov 11th 2010

    You nailed it down, As what people call the church to be the bride of Christ , its sure strange that we have so many churches different brides bearing the name the bride of Christ. Every church org. whatever it might be; has been given its own name. Each one having difference in beliefs.. How can this be!
    If we as believers in Christ believe in the same G-d, how can the body of Christ be so separated. Take your own body in the natural: do we separate the members of our own bodies into sections and separating them from connecting with one another and working in unision with every member being a team worker.
    why can we just have in each community one church for all instead of different churches with different doctrines. yet we all say were the body of Christ.
    To me thats a big joke!!! No way is the church known as the bride of Christ ready. Its a filthy mess with blood stain as a dirty filthy rage more like a harlot with her lovers and abomations of the earth called Mystery Babylon the Great “Mother of Harlots=( different churches of every kind each with there own names. which represent the daughters of her.
    Every one is expecting the return of the Lord anyday mow.
    Yet the word of God says: Wow unto them who desire the day of the Lord.
    Does one think that as we claim being the bride of Christ in the condition that its in he will bring forth full salvation to us or let me refrase that: Consuamte the marriage after having been defiled.
    In No way.!
    I don`t wish for the return of the Lord at this time as we haven`t even come close to the glory of God.= being like Christ ( Messiah).
    Instead of focusing in issues about how the churches are; we are speaking about ourselves as the believer, For we are the church. The church is not buildings with the names of different org. but the “TEMPLE” of the living God…It`s one Temple!!!
    who`s temple we are.
    Lets get it straight.
    If the Lord comes today his “Temple” who we are will be thrown down like the “temple” which was destroyed in 70 AD.and burnt with fire.
    As the word says: If My people =( every believers who believes by faith that Jesus Christ is Lord. I mean every believer whether your a pastor, preacher, big time name or not it includes every believer) who are Called ” by my name” shall humble themselves =( means to truly repent) and turn from their “wicked ways” =( this means that all believers in him have become wicked in iniquity not just a few, but he says ” ALL” are wicked! the whole church or body of Christ have all iniquity in them in one form or another.) Then I shall hear from heaven and “HEAL there Land”…=( This means then he God will find favor with us the all believers and he will heal us=( give us full salvation making us whole in spirit, soul, and body, placing on us the garments of righteousness. not only that, but he will call peace throughout the whole world and establish his kingdom on the earth forever.
    Instaed of being concerned about issues lets empty ourselves of everything that is not like him in us and change our way of thinking of each one bring forth comdemnation upon our own selves.

  21. The LORD DOES come now, in spirit, in YOU! Surprise, SURPRISE!!!

    Thus, we must laugh, cry…. or CHANGE!!! Col. 1:26-27 CHRIST-IN-YOU!!!


    25 Theses for Christian Church Leaders

    We must NOT just rail against others, we must LOVE Christ-in-(uh, hum) OTHERS!

    GET IT?

  22. Sorry Andrew, but that’s a huge part of what is unbiblical with the modern “church”, Yeshua would refer to that as Lawlessness. A pagan Roman Emperor Constatine was the one that outlawed the biblical Sabbath, not Yeshua’s Resurrection. Beaten to death on the forum? Maybe there is a good reason for that. Is it possible the truth must come out before His return?

  23. Rigid righteousness prevents Christ-in-You from happening, Kalev old buddy.

    Holy flexibility allows it. Think about that. Andrew is right. Flexibility is what enables Christ-in-YOU!!!

  24. There are two women in Proverbs and two in Revelation
    One woman is false the other is true!
    One is the antithesis of the other!
    Greg Gordon’s 95 thesis do not fit the true woman!
    However they do apply in every point to the false !
    “Come out of her and be separate” is the command.
    You can not put new wine in old bottles!

    Pr Michael

  25. And Pr. Michael, God’s soon return is Christ-in-You…. NOW…. not waiting for something else!

    God-in-You NOW….. Which means we have the same problem folk did when Jesus walked the Earth.

    Very few had faith God could en-Christ that man, Jesus.

    NOW, When Jesus walks the Earth en-Christed in others, very few had faith God could en-Christ Himself in that man or woman who is holy flexible (not rigid-righteous with fixed-rules) but honored by God by His indwelling!

    Pr. Michael, most folk would rather criticize or pontificate…. thinking that’s the thing to do until Jesus comes…. When doing so prevents their seeing Jesus ALREADY COMES in others!

    Yes! But it takes humility to see it!

    Pride, Pr. Michael…. stops the ability to see Christ comes quickly, INDEED!

    Pride makes rigid folk want Jesus to return in body some day, some day, repeat ad infinitum…. Some day, some day, some day…

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch — HA HA! — Christ comes quickly! YES!

  26. Mrs Luther Nov 11th 2010

    EXACTLY that is why he wrote it,
    That is the same reason Martin Luther wrote his.
    Its THAT simple

  27. When You Pull the Curtain Back
    By Robert Winkler Burke
    Of inthatdayteachings.com
    Copyright 7/3/09
    Matthew 23: 37-39; John 4:23; Revelation 3:16

    What happens, my friend,
    When you pull the curtain back,
    On Christian broadcast,
    And its shenanigans?

    You discover wrong about much,
    And right about little,
    Which Christ spews out of mouth,
    As lukewarm spittle.

    The test is indwelling,
    Not selling,
    This they aren’t telling,
    Pride swelling.

    Christian broadcast panders,
    To envy and not thinking,
    Just believe in something stupid,
    And ego-saccharin drinking.

    The fix is what,
    Troubles them most:
    Honor the indwelt,
    All empty hosts!

    – – – – – –

    What makes indwelling work,
    Is true doctrine, true spirit,
    When their doctrine’s wrong,
    Those preachers won’t hear it.

    The preachers who can’t be corrected,
    Can’t be indwelt,
    So they make their persona spirit,
    More urbane svelte.

    With NLP mysticism,
    And tyrannical tricksternology,
    They dissect their sheep’s souls,
    As students do frogs in biology.

    Then, like Dorothy in Oz,
    When we pull the curtain back,
    The leaders squeal like pigs,
    This is the Devil’s attack!

    No, it’s truth coming,
    To whom it’s due,
    So Jesus can come,
    In me and you.

    – – – – – –

    Then, as in religion,
    So also in politics,
    Ask, Are our leaders real men?
    Or what’s found on dogs: just ticks.

    Our religious leaders,
    Should give us good eyes to see,
    And not enslave us,
    Or help other wolves eat free!

    Rather than trap us,
    With deceptive wiles,
    Explain them to us!
    Stop all wolves’ smiles!

    Expunge self-interest,
    And wrong doctrines will die,
    Oh, Broadcast Church,
    Much of your truth is lie.

    In that day,
    God’s great truths will be known,
    When the Church,
    From selfish child has grown.

  28. watchful Nov 11th 2010

    Amen Michael, been following the bread crumbs the Lord has been graciously putting out via His servants in His great mercy, and am pondering this morning about the false and true within us, that the true within us also has to be separated from and come out of the Babylon (false wicked woman) that is within us which is going to be consumed with fire whether we like it or not! So many scriptures are coming to light – two women grinding grain are one person, two men in a field are one person, one will be taken the other left (one is self, the other Christ in us). As it was in the days of Lot – we are not to be like his wife who was reluctant to leave “self” (wicked Sodom) behind. We are not to go down into our house and try to salvage any of our possessions (self!) in the day of the Lord but flee to the mountains…He is coming whether we like it or not and if we don’t come out of her and separate from “self” we will be condemned along with that false woman.

  29. Roger Souden Nov 12th 2010

    Amen watchful – ‘self’ versus Christ Jesus – it really is as simple as that, and as Jesus Himself took flesh to the cross, so must we.

    John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

  30. How do you write 11 and then 16 ? passionate worship of any style is missing! how is secular different when it comes to worship. It is only good if it is traditional? Doesn’t that go against what you are saying in 16? If passionate worship isn’t part of your worship maybe you were’nt saved from what I was! when you are forgiven much, you love much and passionate worship in any style is the only response of a truly forgiven heart! I greatly appreciate your heart and agree with much of what you are saying.

  31. watchful Nov 12th 2010

    Amen Roger, how I praise God for His light..

    This morning I was reading where Jesus talked about the mighty King who was coming to make war with another lesser king, and how the lesser king needed to ask for terms of peace while the greater King was still afar off. I’m chuckling at myself now, but I was thinking in terms of negotiating, of making friends with this mighty King, bringing Him gifts, doing Him some favours, bowing and scraping – isn’t that just how we Christians think? But in reality the only possible terms of peace is to completely SURRENDER!! or take a whooping! .. Why would the greater more powerful King have to settle for anything less??

  32. Roger Souden Nov 12th 2010

    I was just pondering on Mikes comment re nos. 11 and 16, and relooking at the list, I see them as saying the same thing, that is we are to shed everything of the world, including all ‘idols’ and, only be led by, and move in – the Spirit.

    Watchful – reading your last (the Kings) this is exactly how we think: “how can WE do the right thing, what do WE have to DO”.

    Jesus Christ, our King only asks that we (Christians) believe in Him, repent/surrender to Him and obey Him, and love Him for who He is.

    I really, REALLY don’t want to think about the alternative and the ‘whooping’ :-)

  33. I like the posted thesis. I think they are great items to preach on, however, I don’t think that Luther had the same target. He was focusing of poor theology of the church. These thesis, which are very good, by the way, are more a prophetic voice to the people of the church. I would like to see more work going into theological err of the church. That is what Luther did.
    Thanks for a good post, God bless

  34. Mrs Luther Nov 12th 2010

    When those that have been presenting the prophetic word to the ‘church’ have been presenting the right theology….well its been everywhere that I am associated with.

  35. Mrs Luther Nov 12th 2010

    Roger said…”and as Jesus Himself took flesh to the cross, so must we’.

    I am hoping to not be disresepctful to the Lord, but did He go to the cross saying
    “It’s no longer I that liveth, but Christ that liveth in me”.??

  36. HappyTrails Nov 12th 2010

    Robert Burke! I miss you on this website.


    Mary Ditmars….More people are offended today because no one preaches/teaches we leave behind ALL OUR LIFE, including ALL OUR RIGHTS. We have no rights….We are to humble ourselves.


    Len Lipcsik;Loretta;Steve Nixon; Kalev; Stella; watchful;Roger………PRETTY GOOD INSIGHT, Y’ALL!

    THE “2” THESES

    Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN.

    Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

  37. watchful Nov 12th 2010

    Roger Souden said:

    ” Watchful – reading your last (the Kings) this is exactly how we think: “how can WE do the right thing, what do WE have to DO”.”

    Think you nailed it right there brother!

    Now Mrs. Luther, you know very well I’m sure that Jesus said “I in the Father and the Father in me” :)

  38. Mrs Luther Nov 12th 2010

    Yes and the Father in Christ and Christ in me, and that me, He has given gifts to for the building of His body….He said He would build His church, but He uses people to do it.
    If ‘we’ were not alive, and operating in those gifts, then WE would not be lively stones joined together.

  39. watchful Nov 12th 2010

    Amen, Mrs. Luther, with the condition I’m sure you will agree with – that as long as the people God uses remember that He can raise up sons for Abraham out of stones, as Jesus said, or use donkeys in our stead to shame us if we get too stubborn, and that those living stones first have to become dead stones before they can be made alive again with HIS life!

  40. Mrs Luther Nov 12th 2010

    I believe the people know this, as it is written along with all else they read and obey.
    Its just that ‘some’ try to keep you dead, and make you of no use to the Lord as all.
    They are constantly throwing out, ‘Oh its not you its the Lord’ I believe the Lord could hold those people to account, when HGe says, its was NOT ME at all, it was YOUR vain imaginations….using My Name….

    Remember Paul said ‘I’ can do ALL things through Christ who strengthen me.

  41. Roger Souden Nov 12th 2010

    Hi Mrs Luther,
    Thankyou for the reference :-)

    Yes, I meant take ‘self’ (flesh) to the cross, as in John 3:30 “He must increase, but I must decrease” – and that, may I suggest, is the huge problem today where ‘self’ has not been crucified.. ..hence the 95 theses of Greg’s.

  42. Mrs Luther Nov 12th 2010

    Remember one day YOU will have to give an account for YOUR life,

    You can’t stand before God our Father and say

    ‘It wasn’t me Lord it was You.

  43. Mrs Luther Nov 12th 2010

    Yes Roger,
    I think he may possibly have meant, that now Christ was here, Johns ministry/purpose had been fulfilled, and now his ministry would decrease, and Christs ministry came to the fore to fulfill His purpose.

    John never became less than he was created.
    He was still John who obeyed God and fulfilled his mission.
    Remember God formed us in our monthers womb, He knows the number of the hairs on our head, He loved us so much He died for us, his creation.
    And provided a way of salvation for our flesh…so that we can live with Him forever.

  44. Mrs Luther Nov 12th 2010

    “I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

  45. Mrs Luther Nov 12th 2010

    And this was AFTER Jesus arrived. And yet he honoured John, and then went onto also honour
    those of us, who are in His kingdom, even the least.

  46. Mrs Luther Nov 12th 2010

    I meant salvation FROM our flesh, not FOR our flesh. Typo

  47. Hoover & Happy Trails…. Here are some points to consider… re THESES…

    23) Madness, Lunacy and Mojo vs. Feeding Sheep

    Television Christian ministers sometimes present inane, bellicose banalities pretending to be profundities of the highest order You’re NOT getting it, they say. Other ministers sometimes give manic, emotional diatribes spewed out with machine-gun furor, along with endless scripture quotes of bounce-back-and-forth-scripture-chasing confusion and misdirection of thought. Other ministers employ a staccato of claptrap clichés, background musical crescendos and witchcraft-controlling rapid fire directives: Turn to your neighbor, say this, do that, turn to a Bible verse, turn to another, go back to the first, consider this verse but don’t turn to it, rub your belly, pat your head, finish my sentence, Simon says don’t think! This allows the Lords of Lunacy to hypnotize their sheep to say B-A-A-A-A-A, and A-A-A-A-A-MEN and T-I-I-I-I-I-I-THE and do everything disconnected from God’s Spirit to convince themselves of their happiness without ever truly being fed Christ or being ever able to manifest Him. The sheep are not being fed Christ, they don’t act Christ-like but they do continue to have a craven desire to get “filled” again at the next expensive show. Deca-millionaire ministers regularly extract from followers, some in poverty, to give their ministry ten percent of their income and buy their next “life-changing” book or other must-have-to-be-in-God products, conventions or cruises! It is beyond scandalous. Christ-fed sheep are wise, not suckers; quickened, not dead-looking; independent, not grotesquely obsequious. Sheep that are fed Christ are healthy. Sheep that are fed ego and deception look like some of the misshapen, beguiled troops who now attend ministry meetings. Such conference shepherds teach how to be obnoxious to the Lord and useless to man. This is the fruit of some modern ministries: Abodes of prideful desolation teaching more abodes to be proudly desolate, unable to please or manifest Christ, but nonetheless manically thrilled with ministry witchcraft mojo deception. Turn to somebody and say He’s in the house. This is Revelation’s last page warning against whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    24) Manifesting Our Devilishly-Deceived Selves vs. Manifesting Christ

    Amazingly, the bottom line message of the Bible has been lost in centuries of clutter. Christ’s message is that He must come and manifested Himself in us now. With the Holy Spirit He can indwell in us, if – and it is a big if – we have our heads screwed on straight, meaning we have Father God’s doctrine (i.e. hard truth) and its discipline, which disallows every form of pride, vanity and self-exaltation; despite what television preachers blithely witness to the contrary. All would be fine except the horrific fact that conventional Christian religion is seemingly opposed to that singular good thing from ever happening in its body. Many of conventional Christianity’s habits, traditions, beliefs and doctrines are perversely opposed in everlasting enmity to the ultimate realization of Christ actually indwelling in us. All of the Bible’s transcendent truths, of Christ transitioning Himself into our selves, as seen in John’s chapters 14 through 17, or Isaiah’s call-outs to this high way, or the Bible’s first page command to have dominion over the spirit realm, or the Bible’s last page’s triple iteration that Jesus comes quickly have been lost to truth. It is well understood that Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit without limit, but the Church has taught to receive Christ without His Spirit. Even those who opt to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, often stay content at an extremely miniscule portion of spirit-led life. Out of this hellish stupor believers in Christ must rise up and demand to receive full baptism of the Holy Spirit and full baptism of the fire of sin-revealing and sin-overcoming tribulation until we in humility and obedience hear, obey and manifest Christ at levels all creation groans in anticipation to see the revealing thereof. In other words, we must be in whom comes quickly our God. When we read Behold, I come quickly, we must agree with Jesus that in our lives, yes, He certainly came and was, He certainly comes and is and He certainly will come and be. Who we are must be who Christ is. Who Christ is must be who we are. He is the great I am. And He calls to us and says: Now, with Me be. Behold, I come. Are you ready? Behold, I come: I in you, you in Me. Behold, then, the Body of Christ rise and shine!

    25) Unrighteous Capitulation vs. the Sword of Truth and Spirit

    Country western singer Waylon Jennings wrote, “Lord, it’s the same old tune, fiddle and guitar. Where do we take it from here?…It’s been the same way for years. We need a change.” Many television preachers teach rule-based tithing, rapture, eternal security, dispensational dogma, the imminent return of Just-Fix-Everything-Instantly-Jesus (their own miscreant selves excluded, of course!) and that the only prophet is an entertaining one. Such prophets could not get even a dog that wet the carpet to show remorse. Yet the Church itself is neither housebroken nor repentant enough for God to indwell at sufficient levels. In truth, there is no rapture, no eternal security and Jesus comes quickly in the prepared-for-Him-inside now. Giving must be rhema-based not percentage rule-based. The Church’s end-times dispensational doctrine is a colossally wrong misdirection and poorly prepares the Church, much less the world, for tomorrow’s troubles. Tribulations come with opportunity to be sanctified because hard circumstances penetrate a soul’s stupor. Only when the Church teaches the disciplines required to worship God in spirit and truth and then hear and obey Christ’s rhema voice will the Church be equal to tomorrow’s emergencies, opportunities and potential revivals. Truly, the Church has missed it by a mile. Ministries will have to massively repent of wickedly hanging on to wrong doctrines, which make them unable to manifest Christ themselves, and for their brazen audacity in hawking their worldly antichrist opinions like voracious whores. Why should God’s people buy Satan’s doctrines from the Church? Church leaders, wash the inside of the cup. Church leaders, die to self. Church leaders, stop extracting dollars unrighteously. Church leaders, stop flailing at the world with a scabbard of puerile doctrines, and pick up Christ’s two-edged sword of spirit and truth. And use that sword against your wrong beliefs and your wrong spirits. And then publicly repent of your misdeeds of proclaiming truth that was not truth and being of a spirit that was not of God. The world will see you become more and more as God’s very truth and even as God’s very spirit. And then, verily verily the Lord God Almighty says unto you, you will see true revival.

  48. HappyTrails Nov 12th 2010

    a prophet of God has spoken

    Welcome back Robert Burke

  49. watchful Nov 12th 2010

    Ya got me thinkin’ about that word “quickly”, Robert Burke..

  50. watchful Nov 12th 2010

    Mrs. Luther, if I understand what you’re getting at, you’re talking about the church neglecting the priesthood of all believers on the one hand, or pushing people into presumption, counterfeit miracles, false prophecies, on the other? In so doing they bypass the cross and dying to self..

    Why self must die is because it is inherently wicked and corrupt, self has gone the way of Balaam, the way of Cain – self is of the seed of Satan, it cannot be redeemed but must be forsaken and put to death, our “old man”. But the Lord has graciously given us the opportunity to receive a new self of His incorruptible seed, so that we will no longer be of our father the devil, for that is what we were, but be of our heavenly Father. That new self, is the nature of Christ, He graciously shares His nature and Spirit with us so that we can now live through Him. This is how I understand it, and yesterday I was mourning for my old wicked self, realizing that all my life I had been trying to protect and cover up for “her” (I picture her as a very young child, but utterly corrupt, wanting to be like God like Eve did), and realizing I have to let “her” go, “she” is doomed to reap the wages of sin and “I”, (new self), dont’ want to be attached to “her” (old self) as she reaps that judgment – I agree with the Lord in His judgment of “her” and get out of the way so He can. I think everyone will experience that separating from “self” in their own unique way. But anything after that is just Jesus, I in Him and He in me, somehow we are one, it’s a mystery. So when God says “we” will be greater than John the Baptist, it is really Jesus, all glory goes to Him, what can we do but lay our crowns at His feet, and be so grateful that He offers Himself to us this way, remembering what it cost Him to be able to…

  51. Watchful and Happy Trails…. you consistently prove “Christ-in-You” is in…. YOU!

    I am not really a prophet, but Christ is in me. Christ is prophetic at times, no?

    Dear brothers and sisters, this site is very full of critique of modern church and its leaders. But that is not the end, only the beginning. The fruit of critique stinketh!

    Modern church and its leaders have WHACKY doctrine. True seekers much rid themselves of modern church WHACKY doctrine. This is hard for most people!

    Sadly, few seem willing to do this. Christ can’t much manifest himself in such.

    And the main point is Christ’s return! Now? Or someday, always someday.

    Jesus was a man in whom God lived fully. That’s simple enough to understand.

    Are you one in whom God can live fully? Can you be en-Christed with GOD?

    Yes, perhaps, if you fully believe God en-Christs believers, even you…. NOW!

    No, definitely, if you fully believe God waits to be other than in your body.. LATER!

    Your choice: Stay with the LATER crowd. Or live NOW with Christ in YOU!

    But warning: Christ doesn’t seem interested in manifesting himself in whacky doxie, in trollops of stupidity, in pride, in finger-pointers, in those who can’t love!

  52. David Larsen Nov 13th 2010

    You are a prophet and Christ in you is what makes it so.
    I know you Robert and I know Christ and I know when I here you and when I here Him and this is what your sisters are saying to you and so am i. He who has ears will and can hear what the Spirit of the Lord is saying. All the rest will just think it was thunder or a sound they could not understand.

  53. Roger Souden Nov 13th 2010

    Robert, David – Yes, Christ indwells us now through His Holy Spirit as promised in John 14:20 “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” and in context verses 9-31.. if we believe in Him.

    Also He will return in bodily form as promised in Revelation 19 to defeat the armies of the nations that are gathered to make war with Him, and as foretold in so many O.T. prophecies.

    So, present now in Spirit, returning in the future in bodily form.

  54. Roger, ah there’s the RUB! God-in-You-Now! Not any other way later!

    Truth is Recognized by its Beauty
    By Robert Winkler Burke
    Of inthatdayteachings.com
    Copyright 8/24/08

    Truth is recognized by its beauty,
    And to know this is our duty.

    Consider then, current doxies of wayward Christianity,
    And ask, Is it beautiful to behold, or mere insanity?

    A doxie says when pilots are raptured their passengers die,
    But if this is beautiful, then beauty is a lie.

    A doxie says widows’ mites let prosperity preachers live high,
    But if this is beautiful, then beauty is a lie.

    A doxie says eternal security lets all sin in us get by,
    But if this is beautiful, then beauty is a lie.

    A doxie says Jesus returns to fix all but you and I,
    But if this is beautiful, then beauty is a lie.

    But the Bible says Jesus comes quickly in us to indwell,
    And this is beautiful truth designed to make us well.

    And the Bible says a spiritual stirring and cleansing will come,
    Allowing Jesus to manifest Himself in our spiritual home.

    All escapist doctrine is ugly as ugly can be,
    But behold beautiful Jesus in whom is free!

    And who can Jesus come to and live with and be free?
    Those in His blood who, overcoming sin, learn to be.

    We salute then the Divine living in you and you and me,
    This end-times teaching is as beautiful as beauty can be.

    But the escapist dogma of religion making us and God not neigh,
    Is so far from beauty, we see by its brazen adoration of ugliness it is a lie.

    Hurray for God’s beauty! Hurray for God’s truth!
    Desolate, abominable doctrine we now forsooth!

    We escape from all escapism taught by escapists,
    Their escapism is as ugly as child rapists.

    Escapist shepherds devour their flock,
    Ugly it is when God they mock.

    Escapists put themselves first and always God last,
    Behold In That Day when the reverse course is cast!

    In That Day all truth will finally, totally be known,
    And beauty in whom knew truth will be shown.

    Thus In That Day man lives in God, and God lives in man,
    Alpha to Omega: Behold God’s even so beautiful plan!

  55. Roger Souden Nov 13th 2010

    Robert, so you are denying that Messiah Jesus returns in bodily form at His second coming..? ..as King of Kings and Lord of Lords..?

    ..and if I understand you correctly, when previously you mentioned en-christed, presumably you mean Spiritually..?

    ..so we have a christ spirit in us now, and then no bodily return in the future..? am I understanding you correctly..?

    That sounds a tad ‘new agey’, rather than scripture, if you don’t mind me saying.

  56. And we should continue to move forward in the Evanjellyfish model because…….????
    There’s a whole lot wrong with some of the points, let alone the religion of the evangelicals.

  57. Roger, Jesus was a man in whom God lived fully. He was en-Christed. To show how it is done. As it was then, so it is now.

    Yet you, like the religious establishment of the day…. believe about the exact same. You CANNOT believe anything but some weird manifestation of God other than how he comes!

    And how does He come? In man! In man! In man! (And woman, and child!) As it was then so it is now.

    When Christ returns, will he find faith? Apparently not! I say I know whereof I speak. CHRIST returns now!

    Look at how silly, how ink-blot imagining the dispensational dogma is. It is PLAIN CRAZY. CRAZY, CRAZY, CRAZY!!!

    You want Jesus to return in corporal form to do what? Make so and so viceroy? Make another adjutant? Make another in charge of this or that? Huh?

    Can’t you see that’s just like the disciples arguing amongst their ignorant selves?

    Face the bitter, but set-you-free TRUTH! GOD returns in man now!

    BUT NOT in those holding pie-in-the-sky return beliefs! GOD WON’T RETURN in a body full of stupid dogma. NO HE WON’T! That would be too confusing!

    So now choose: STUPID DOGMA that doesn’t work for anybody on the planet?

    Or choose the doctrines of Jesus, in whom GOD fully supported by HIS FULL SPIRIT then, and most importantly: NOW! God supports full indwelling NOW!

    You have two-thousand years of history to know now what works and doesn’t. The escapist returns dogmas JUST ARE NOT HONORED by God’s indwelling.

    Simple faith that GOD lives in his believers…. well now, that’s a horse of a different color! IT WORKS!!! IT WORKS!!! Good news, indeed!!!

    But, who am I to keep others from beating a dead horse. Beat away! Wish you didn’t, but nobody — NOT EVEN GOD!!! — can or will stop that beating of dead horse flesh. Beat that “any moment” drum, beat that “rapture” tom tom. Ugh!

    Meanwhile, LOOK, SEE, BEHOLD with eyes to see… true prophecy (not crazy dispensational ink-blot imaginings) true poetry, true life, true HEALING!!!, true love and indwelling, miracles ACTUALLY — in the en-Christed now (Whom, of course and most naturally, the dead-horse beaters want to kill. Yup, same as times!)

    Don’t be a dead-horse beater, beating the drum of rapture and escapist comings and goings, who only stop that dead-in-Christ activity to kill an en-Christed one!

    Be alive in Christ. Be indwelt. Be one with God. BELIEVE CHRIST COMES NOW! (not later, not no how but NOW) NOW! NOW! get it? NOW!

  58. David Larsen Nov 13th 2010

    The only thing I have to say is you might want to go and see if it is raining out side. When God says something all you here is thunder. He who has ears to hear will hear the rest will just insist on silly doctirnes that have no basis in fact just fairy tales the pastors tell wee children. Ever learning and never growing. When you hear the truth you think it is new age. The truth that Paul Preached was Christ in you the hope of glory and most think this is a new age doctrine because they have no idea what it really means . Some how they dont think that what was good enough for Jesus is not good enough for those who are Gods true children. They like the nation of Isreal look for a savior when His true Children already ride the high places of the heavens in the Spirit of God . All others dwell in the lower parts of the earth never daring to believe that God would place His fullness in a man again. Well stand back all you earth bound children and you will see a remnent fly on the wings of the wind of the Spirit just like our captain Jesus. As He comes in mighty power in the clouds of heaven the true church His body in the earth now. For we are not the clouds that get blown about by false doctrines we are the true clouds Jesus is coming in. If you look on the horizen you will see a cloud the size of a mans hand that is Christ coming in mighty power in those who have been hid but will be made known very shortly.

  59. Roger Souden Nov 13th 2010

    Robert – now you say: “Jesus was a man in whom God lived fully. He was en-Christed. To show how it is done. As it was then, so it is now.”

    So, not only do you deny that Jesus our Lord and Messiah will return as Lord of Lords and King of Kings, in bodily form in the future..!! if I understand correctly, you are also saying that Jesus was just a man..?

    ..and yet scripture tells us:
    1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    ..please excuse my slow understanding here, but from this scripture alone, I assume that the spirit in you is not the same Jesus the Messiah, God come in the flesh, crucified and risen from the dead, that I worship..? therefore the ‘jesus’ you worship is of antichrist..?

    David – you said previously that you ‘know’ Robert..? so, I can only assume that if you agree with Roberts teachings and beliefs, that you too are of antichrist spirit..?

    Lovely words from both of you, but please could you clarify your beliefs..?

  60. Roger – Here are two scriptures that we all need to have instilled in our hearts in these last days of strong delusion, and deception.

    John 8:31-32

    “Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

    Hold to the word of Jesus Christ above all others and let no man take your crown.

  61. Roger Souden Nov 13th 2010

    Tyrone – thankyou for that :-)

    – we all need Robert and David to clarify their beliefs – don’t we..?

  62. Mrs Luther Nov 13th 2010

    “Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

    YES It is that simple…

  63. Andrew Nov 13th 2010

    Being so dogmatic and loudly proclaiming their beliefs is exactly what has caused trouble for them here.

    Perhaps its better that they go – as has been requested of them.

    Why they keep coming back is a mystery to me.


  64. Mrs Luther Nov 13th 2010

    Mrs. Luther, if I understand what you’re getting at, you’re talking about the church neglecting the priesthood of all believers on the one hand, or pushing people into presumption, counterfeit miracles, false prophecies, on the other? In so doing they bypass the cross and dying to self

    No I wasn’t really saying this..but thats OK..
    We all know why we have to go to the cross, but so many seem to want to destroy the person, as if they don’t exist, and I am saying they do exist, it is their FLESH that is to die….

  65. Mrs Luther Nov 13th 2010

    As in “Therefore now there is no condemination to those who walk in the Spirit, and not the flesh.

    See WE still exist….WE are to give an account…
    WE are to overcome….its the flesh that is crucified and the works thereof.

  66. Mrs Luther Nov 13th 2010

    And it is WE that Christ gives that choice to, deny yourself and follow Him, and then He shows us how..

    refering back to that scripture, If ye abide in my Words, etc etc

  67. Randall Nov 13th 2010

    I am not happy nor amused. Christians continue to post things while a Chinese missile launch occurs just 35 miles off Los Angeles.

    Has anyone bothered to see what a 60 megaton hydrogen bomb explosion will do to 17 million people?

    We cluck on about the church.. while satan is getting ready to put hundreds of millions of people to death

    sorry, but I won’t apologize for this posting

  68. Roger Souden Nov 13th 2010

    Randall – the only news I could find was this:
    While a submarine-based missile launch is not completely outside the realm of possibility, such a move by the Chinese at this point would seriously hamper Sino-American relations.

    At this point, no one appears to know for certain what was recorded on Monday. Until more credible information is available, speculation based on un-named “intelligence sources” and unverified quotes should be taken with a grain of salt.

  69. Once a wise mouse traveled abroad to visit a strange land called Public Mouse Educationland. There he saw cats teaching young mice to love cats! (Back in Wise Mouseland, mice teach mice to beware of cats!) But in Public Mouse Educationland, young mice were taught by old cats, who not surprisingly, ATE the mice after they grew up!

    How convenient for the cats! thought the Wise Mouse. Cautiously, he asked a Very Old Cat if their cat-taught mice ever suspected something was wrong.

    Why yes, Mir Wise Mouse from Wise Mouseland! Here at Public Mouse Educationland we sometimes are pestered with questions from bothersome mice!

    What do you do? asked the Wise Mouse.

    That’s easy! We send them to Wise Cat Church! Who do you think taught us our tricks?

    Thus ends this parable about political and clerical mystic tyranny that stops cogent thinking, stops honest questions and stops greater love and blinds all.

    Except I must add that the Wise Mouse, at no small risk, kept visiting the poor, mind-enshackled mice in Public Mouse Educationland. And he’d try to talk sense to them. And, he even talked to the cats!

    Why? The Wise Mouse from Wise Mouseland loved everybody and everything. He believed the poor mice and cats in Public Mouse Educationland had a cheap sort of love, a cheap love that was killing their spirits and making them blind!

    So the Wise Mouse kept coming back to the land of mind-enslaved cats and mice hoping the time had come for some, if not all, to see!


  70. Andrew Nov 13th 2010

    Ah – so it is all about Wise Mice preaching Universalism!!!!!!

    Thankyou very much!

  71. Lots of banter back and forth, but maybe I’m missing something, but are some of y’all actually looking for revival INSIDE the christian church or will it occur outside of it as I believe we’re seeing today?

  72. Mrs Luther Nov 13th 2010

    At this point I am not being specific :)

  73. Mrs Luther Nov 13th 2010

    For those wanting to talk missiles

    Mystery Missile Was Retalliation From China!??

    The mystery missile which was launched near San Diego on 11/10/2010 which
    no one else had made any connection to where it came from, may now show
    some frightening answers!

    After some research and analysis (link below) it was discovered that on
    11/10/2007 the US was doing naval exercises in the Gulf of Japan. It
    included an aircraft carrier and several support vessels. A Chinese
    submarine submerged out of nowhere within the battle group to shoot off a
    missile before submerging as a show of strength.

    This coincides with 11/10/2010. An anniversary date! Was this a Chinese
    submarine showing a posture of strength and warning to the US? Even though
    we are watching the middle east for end time events, we should be watching
    China and even Russia! China is very angry at “Helicopter Benny” for
    dumping BILLIONS of new funny money out of his helicopter. Was this not
    only a rememberance of what happened three years ago, but also a warning
    to the US for monetizing our debt? Or an act of revenge by invading our US
    waters to get even for what happened three years ago?

    So now the US military and officials are embarassed because China
    REMEMBERS what happened three years ago and the government is trying to
    hide the TRUTH from the public. So they tell us LIES to cover it up. I
    hope this exposes the truth of what happened yesterday. Your thoughts?


  74. Andrew Nov 13th 2010


    Seems unlikely

    Perhaps we should just stick to the topic here?


  75. Interesting points Mrs. Luther. I would certainly put credibility into the potential of a Chinese sub (Financed by the US taxpayer) pulling off such an event, just to let us know that they are more advanced than we gave them credit for.

    There are many things that must occur before the 7 year Tribulation begins, some of which we are seeing moving very quickly, others may not appear to be as such, but are also moving forward in tandem.

    The Exodus out of the christian church is one of them, the econmic stability of the world is another, which we now see teetering towards ruin, and a global body in which to politically operate once the nations are in such a state that a One World Order can be realized. 666 Mans religion, mans economy & mans gov’t.

    Because the vast majority of the christian church is in denial, compromise with sin or just without ears to hear and eyes to see, many are choosing not to see events worldwide as the picture of what we can expect in the future.

    The topic being the Evanjellyfish churches are falling, is because they are no longer on the solid rock of truth, where leaven has puffed up the whole loaf and compromise with sin is winked at.

    Anyone still tied to religion takes great risks that they will go down with the ship of religion, trying to hold on to a tradition that the Lord doesn’t care about, nor will he save.

    “Come out of her my children, lest you share in her sins and partake of her plagues.” Rev 18:4.

    I just pray those with eyes to see and ears to hear, will jump onto the safety of the ‘rock’ while there still is some time.

  76. David Larsen Nov 13th 2010

    The very scriptures that you quote above are the test as to who is true and who is not. They are also the basis for what Robert and myself are talking about. When asked who people said He was Peter told Jesus He was the Christ the son of the livivng God.
    That is who He is and was and will always be. The Christ the son the word the Spirit of God. Your foolish doctrines learned from the church world have kept your eyes blind to the truth. You your self have brought up how to tell the true from the false and have failed your own test . Christ has come in the flesh the same way He came in the man Jesus. He came the first time this way and has come again for those with eyes to see. Only now He comes in His true church all those who are called out of the world and into His kingdom. The bible says He will come again to save those who can see who He really is or are expecting Him. He has come and continues to come in all true belivers. Christ in you is the hope of glory. All else is sinking sand. If you think this is anti christ or new age then you are the one who needs to be saved. And Andrew if you think Robert and myself should be off your web site stand up and make it so and state why. What sin have we commited except wasting our and Gods time trying to warn way ward children is not that what this site is about. Robert seems to think you are worth the extra time.
    I believe to many here are very stiff necked and set to walk in the ditch. I hope Robert is right.

  77. David Larsen Nov 13th 2010

    No where in Roberts little story did he mention or bring up universalism why did you? I would think after all that people have tried to say that has come out of your own mouth you would be the last to do this. Could this be the problem when it comes to your self. In fact if you read the story for what it really says I could very easily see you as the wise little mouse warning others.
    Something to think about. I hear Christ in much of what you have to say brother if you would only dare to believe He would grow to full size in you. But then not so many would want to be your friend. I and Robert would.

  78. David Larsen Nov 13th 2010

    Roger Souden
    You left out the most inportant part of what you were saying above while you wanted us to read 1 John 4: 2-3 you left out the answer and the one you are avoding and in fact denining. Which is verse 4 Ye are of God little children and have overcome them:
    because greater is he that is in you then he that is in the world.
    See the point is that they knew that Christ had come and lived in them or their flesh. When John was telling them who the false and the real were this was the test. What saves us and keeps true belivers is the indwelling of the Christ of God. If you have the son you also have the Father for they are one and so are we in Him. All else is anti christ something other then the true Christ.
    True christians are those in whom Christ dwells. For He has come and are hope is in Him not men flying through the air like super man. And just like Jesus all they seen was a man and they could not believe that God lived in His flesh so they killed Him and so they still kill Him in us who are His because they can not see. Forgive them Father for they do not know what they are doing. In fact they believe thay are doing you a favor.

  79. http://www.inthatdayteachings.com/oldhomepagea/25theses.html

    25 Theses for Christian Church Leaders

    20) We Don’t Need Maturity vs. Be Ye Spiritually Mature, and Live

    Current popular Church teaching discourages the very mandate God requires in this day, which is to die to self at ever increasing levels, manifest God at ever increasing levels and expand God’s kingdom at ever increasing levels. Why is this so? Because: Common Christian doctrines about the future, which typically includes the rapture, the imminent second coming as a spectacular singularity and eternal security, are delusional. Why die to self, if a “Beam-Me-Up-Scotty-God” is going to get us out of our life’s battle zones? But when a hard thing comes to the unprepared (and, by the way, unraptured) believer, that believer is unable to conquer the situation if he can’t hear and obey God’s rhema voice. Ditto for eternal security believers. Why try the rugged road of righteousness, when a simple sinner’s prayer and the belief that “Jesus did it all” is so much easier? But when a hard thing comes to the (supposed) eternal security believer who doesn’t know God’s voice, he is slaughtered by the enemy. Same goes for believers of the Imminent-Return-of-Mr.-Fix-It-All-Jesus. Why learn the disciplines to hear and obey Jesus’ rhema voice, when He “soon and very soon” will set foot on the Mount of Olives and make everything so blessedly perfect? So when most every opportunity to manifest Christ fails to happen in the unsanctified life of a baby-doctrine-taught Christian, the purposes of heaven are massively frustrated. And it is so sad. Because today’s Church clings tenaciously to its wrong doctrines, which result in multitudes dying in ignorance and failure because they learned little more from the Church than unrighteous love mush. When God’s small quiet voice prompts believers to leave off unjustness and filthiness, and acquire righteousness and holiness; likely as not that believer’s preacher on Sunday will repeat rapture, eternal security and imminent return teachings, which is today’s lazy, hazy, crazy, give-up-gospel message saying: Why try?

  80. http://www.inthatdayteachings.com/oldhomepagea/25theses.html

    25 Theses for Christian Church Leaders

    9) The “About” Factor vs. Enough “About” Already, for Christ’s Sake!

    Ministries which forever teach “about” Jesus and never involve themselves with manifesting Jesus (including love, healing, tongues, prophesy, gifts of the spirit, miracles, etc.) are like an F-15 flight school that forever teaches “about” the fighter jet but never expects anyone to be its pilot. Granted, an F-15 Eagle is an extremely complicated machine. Some could choose to blab “about” it for eternity. Likewise, an errant minister may blab on “about” Jesus eternally but never manifest much of His Spirit. God help the ministries trapped in such rotten and despicable doctrine. Such “about” preachers can be detected by the fact that their sermons are almost always boring. And finally, these curious “about” preachers have nothing of the spirit of Chuck Yeager, or an eagle, or our Lord, or anyone you must ever hope to be.

  81. http://www.inthatdayteachings.com/oldhomepagea/25theses.html

    25 Theses for Christian Church Leaders

    6) Worshiping Worldly Profits vs. Honoring Rebuking Prophets

    The five-fold ministry includes prophets, but rare is the church with a prophet operating in Biblical fullness. More common is the church with profits to grow buildings, grow staff, grow television ministry and grow sometimes huge convention meetings. If a living prophet is heralded, is it one who rebukes as did Moses? Is it is one who rebukes as did Jeremiah? Is it one who rebukes as did John, Jesus and even Paul? Or do we find prophets who prophesy rainbow stew for me and you? Sadly, we find the latter and not the former. No church serves two masters, and the master of the world is often the master of the church. And the master of the world will not be rebuked by a prophet. Perhaps this is why so few churches want correction, but so many revival; so few a prophet, so many entertainment; so few steak, so many milk.

  82. Roger Souden Nov 14th 2010

    Robert and David,
    – I am saddened to see that neither of you can confess:

    1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    ..again, lovely words in your comments – but devoid of scriptural truth – anyone can mention christ or jesus – but they are not necessarily referring to Jesus the Messiah, of the triune Godhead of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    David – you said:
    “And Andrew if you think Robert and myself should be off your web site stand up and make it so and state why. What sin have we commited except wasting our and Gods time trying to warn way ward children is not that what this site is about. Robert seems to think you are worth the extra time.”

    Me: May I suggest that the reason Robert keeps commenting is so that he can post his site address..? Hmm..?

    ..and may I further suggest that the reason Andrew hasn’t blocked you should be obvious – so that others can read and discern how the enemy of Messiah Jesus subtly tries to seduce people.

    Or possibly you would like some words from Andrew to post on Roberts site..? where you can twist and infer different meanings, and introduce more subtle deception..?

  83. HappyTrails Nov 14th 2010

    Roger…..I believe if you read the comment again…..David Larsen DID SAY CHRIST CAME IN THE FLESH .

    Roger…as you say, you walk according the Spirit of God….be sure that you ask Him what is true and what is false…..He DELIGHTS in revealing His mysteries to His children.

  84. David Larsen Nov 14th 2010

    Roger Souden
    You are the one who fails the test you continue to give to all as if you are almighty God. As I stated above you leave out the 4 th verse saying how Christ as come and that it is in us as believers.
    You run around getting all to say that Jesus came in the flesh when this is a fact even the devil knows and all can confess with out ever knowing God as Father. The test the scripture is for is does the Christ live in you has He come in your flesh . It sounds as if you are the one who fails your own test. As far as Roberts site I have never heard him speak bad of Andrew in fact he likes him and prays for him do you? You sir have no right to suppect such things of myself or Robert. But I have seen that you are one who likes to think you are the most holy set to make all conform to the likness of God you have in your own mind. It is so sad that this is your image and not Gods . I forgive you for the harsh things you have to say about myself and Robert. And in case you did not know it you have no right to judge any with your silly childish test untill you test your self. And from what I can see you have already failed the true test do you know God. If you knew Him you would know myself and Robert and by failing the test of loving your brother you fail all the tests.

  85. Roger Souden Nov 14th 2010

    Happy – I read this in Davids comment, about 10 back – and I ask what Christ and why refer to Jesus as man in whom Christ dwells..?
    Christ has come in the flesh the same way He came in the man Jesus. He came the first time this way and has come again for those with eyes to see.

    Hence my concern..

  86. excellent. thank you for this

  87. Andrew Nov 14th 2010

    A very valid concern, Roger.

    These guys – David and Robert – have been posting dubious stuff here for some months.

    In fact after causing a lot of trouble last time, David told me he was leaving the site and never coming back. I thought you were a man of your word, David – so I am surprised to see you back here.


  88. I would encourage you Roger not to go back and forth with David, you have discerned correctly.

    God Bless

  89. Since I was so rudely deleted…let me say it again.
    Kudo’s to David and Robert.

    Ya know, this is the type of thing where believers are supposed to share with one another, but it appears you can share and will be accepted, only if it falls into the accepted theology. That being the old wine in the old wine skin of christian style NT church with offices, hierarchy & the traditional model which is crumbling before our very eyes. Am I right?

    There have been many good stories on the JtB about spiritual truths and realities, the mass exodus OUT of the christian church, yet it is also being denied and poo poo’d at the same time.

    Why is this?

  90. Excellent response HappyTrails. Thank you. :)

  91. Elaine Barnes Nov 14th 2010

    After reading the thesis and these replies I went to bed with my daily reading and read..
    My people shall be satisfied with My goodness, saith the Lord
    Jer 31v14…
    …’Note the ‘My’ which comes twice. ‘MY’ people shall be satisfied with ‘MY’ goodness. The kind of people who are satisfied with God are marked out as God’s own. He is pleased with them for they are pleased with him. They call Him their God and He calls them His people; He is satisfied with them for a portion and they are satisfied with Him for their portion. There is a mutual communion of delight between God’s Israel and Israel’s God.
    These people are satisfied. This is a grand thing.
    Very few of the sons of men are ever satisfied, let their lot be what it may; they have swallowed the horse leach and it cries ‘Give!’ ‘Give!’
    Only sanctified souls are satisfied souls. God Himself must both convert and content us.

    It is no wonder that the Lord’s people should be satisfied with the goodness of their Lord. Here is goodness without mixture, bounty without stint, mercy without chiding, love without change,favour without reserve.
    If God’s goodness does not satisfy us what will? – What! Are we still groaning?
    Surely there is a wrong desire within if it be one which God’s goodness does not satisfy.
    Lord I am satisfied, Blessed be thy name.
    C.H Spurgeon.

  92. Andrew Nov 14th 2010

    Actually we have rules on this site.

    Heresy that causes big arguments is not ecouraged.

    We also get “bullies” who browbeat others with their unusual dogma.

    No thanks.


  93. To all those trying to “die to self” get a revelation –

    “For YOU DIED and your life is hidden with Christ in God” Colossians 3:3
    “I HAVE BEEN CRUCIFIED with Christ….”Galatians 2:20
    “knowing this, that our old man WAS CRUCIFIED with Christ” Romans 6:6
    “IF One died for all then ALL DIED ” 2 Corinthians 5:14
    “And those who are Christ’s HAVE CRUCIFIED the flesh with its passions and desires” Galatians 5:24
    etc etc etc
    Jesus is the representative man. when He went to the Cross we all went with Him.
    You don’t “die to self” by battling the flesh but by revelation that it’s already been done and learning to live in that by Grace through faith..
    Revelation accomplishes in you what no amount of wrestling the flesh can. We wrestle NOT against flesh and blood..
    .[Ephesians 6:12 ]that battle has been won.
    The Accuser keeps up the accusations to keep you fighting a battle that has already been won instead of wrestling against “principalities, rulers of darkness against spiritual hosts of wickedness” Ephesians 6:12
    While Christians keep fighting each other and battling “the flesh”, satin is safe. When we recognize who the real enemy is we might get somewhere.
    I have read that when Watchman Nee had the revelation of being crucified with Christ, he shouted “I’m dead,I’m dead Praise God I’m dead.!”
    No man can see God and live. When you get revelation you “see” God and it kills you. There’s nothing of the flesh left to battle against.
    What the Church needs is a deeper revelation of the Cross. That’s God’s ONLY answer. And it’s coming!

    If you think that the Church is imperfect [and it isn’t] then pray for it. That’s the Jesus way

  94. Andrew Nov 14th 2010

    Very thought provoking, Val


  95. Mrs Luther Nov 14th 2010

    I think it is the FLESH that is dead. It is the flesh that is crucified, and then we walk in the spirit. and fulfill what Christ called us to do.

    It is the pure in heart that SEE God…that is when the idols in your heart are removed, and you ‘Let THIS mind be IN you that was in Christ.

  96. Trevor Hughes Nov 14th 2010

    The story of the curse on Ham by Noah and the banishment of Cain deal with the most precious of gifts given to mankind by God – being a template for posterity. The Church has failed to realise that preserving and improving that template it is part of its mandate. Our young people rail against authority for one reason – What reasonable individual would want to be like those who feel “called” to be leaders ? The church has options that the world doesnt -Jesus and the Holy Spirit yet they refuse to use them and be moulded by them. Daniel 10:12 states that when we choose to understand the Lord hears our prayers. (It takes more than blind faith to make a Christian). I choose to be guided by the pursuit of scriptural wisdom yet I am berated for it . I do not understand why Church leaders have forsaken biblical wisedom

  97. watchful Nov 14th 2010

    It’s really standing out to me that people are not really realizing that THE GLORY HAS DEPARTED. They are still standing looking back at Sodom as if expecting her judgment will be averted and God will visit her instead. They are yearning to go back to Egypt for all the spiritual goodies she offers, hoping God will visit her too. We need to get it through our heads – BABYLON WILL NOT BE REVIVED. We better hope we are found with something VASTLY different than what Babylon has – we better hope we can put some DISTANCE between ourselves and Sodom before the fire falls..DOCTRINALLY SPEAKING!! and lay a NEW FOUNDATION for the walls of Jersualem than what Babylon has!

    There are many false christs and we have been warned not to look for Jesus over here or over there, or in this room or that place, but to look within, tend to our own vineyard within, tend to our own garden enclosed, and not the vineyards of our “brothers”. If you really want revival that’s where it starts, in your own heart and no place else. What would it profit us to gain the whole world but lose our own soul?

  98. Mrs Luther Nov 15th 2010

    Good Watchful
    Its just when that happens, then we are to (I believe)
    follow the pattern in the NT, as when that DID happen, then those who had gifts to use them for the maturingtof the saints, some were called to be apostyles, prophets, etc etc and then there were elders to oversee the body of believers, and some were called to give an account, I do not believe that has changed…and remember we are to stir up those gifts, when the presperty laid hands on us….NOT the hands laying of the false, but the true…..and those overseers keep the false out and protect those sheep as the Holy Spirit gives them the discernment to do so, tht is discern.

  99. watchful Nov 15th 2010

    Yes, Mrs. Luther – it’s interesting you mention the gifts of the Holy Spirit, it’s been on my mind about coming out and being separate and touching not the unclean thing. When the body of Christ is functioning properly, the gifts and ministry of the Holy Spirit will be as it should. But I think what has happened is that many of us have brought out of Babylon that which we received while IN Babylon – a “ministry”, gifts of the Spirit, doctrines – all tainted while we were in Babylon and on a wrong foundation, carnal in other words – it all needs to go to the altar, to be sifted and purified, we need to leave it all behind in Babylon and begin again as a pure virgin. That is one thing I see that is keeping many tied to the false church even though they may consider that they have come out of her.

    I was thinking this morning also of the Jericho episode (Joshua 6, 7), which I believe illustrates this. When the Israelites were sent to destroy that city and devote it to the Lord, how the man Achan took some of the things from the city that were to be devoted to the Lord, and how it resulted in Israel not being able to be victorious in the next battle against Ai, because God was not with them. He considered the Israelites taking of the devoted things for themselves to be unfaithfulness.

  100. Roger Souden Nov 15th 2010

    Mrs Luther, Watchful – The Lord has been showing me, the same as you – that all these things of flesh, ‘self’, whether brought out from Babylon or Egypt need to be laid down before Him. All the idols, giftings, talents, whatever – give back to Him and let Him sift and sort, purge and refine..

    Then, He will give back to us, or ‘new’ to us – what He desires we have, to use for His purpose and at His command and bidding.

    What I believe He has shown me is that whilst I still have any ‘self’ or ‘flesh’ in me – that He cannot trust me with His FULL gifting. Only when the Lord can trust me not to move on my own, but only and always at His command and desire – then He will trust me with the fullness of whatever gifting He has for me.

    Note I say ‘fullness’. At the moment I see that we have in part, and see in part – as Paul explained.

    So, yes – its the revival inside of us that must happen first – recognition, repentance, laying down, obedience – until only the Messiah is seen through each of us as vessels.. ..and we can, and do need to, learn from, and share with, each other.

    Understand I am not disagreeing with you – but agreeing, and perhaps adding another tiny view of the picture as we share with each other to build up and encourage the Body.

  101. Watchful, I was intending to acknowledge what you said on another comments thread, but the thread closed before I could.

    I would like to say that I have enjoyed reading your comments and witness with much of what you say.

    I hadn’t realized you were blocked from the forum until an old topic surfaced the other day.

    My time on the Forum has come to an end.
    This site was the first time I had tried online fellowship.

    Staying focused on my personal relationship and walk with Christ, is what is important to me at the moment.

    I like you can see clearly that the glory of God is not with christian ministries today, and until this is restored, we lack the fullness of who Christ is.

    We can all walk into the glory of Christ if we follow in His ways.


  102. Mrs Luther Nov 15th 2010

    Yes, yes watchful….well said in my opinion.

    And it is from those who do walk in the error, wrong teaching, twisted doctrine, also to be avoided when they are constantly calling things one way, when in fact it is another, they can be a stumbling block.
    Just as Jesus said to Peter, ‘get behind me satan’, if we said that today, we woud be told we were not loving. So what do we do, keep quite, and just love our brother or sister, when they have so much error they are doing damage to the Body.???

    These are quesitons I have pondered for years, as my main passion is to see the Body come to maturity, and to study to be able to rightly divide the Word,
    I have just had someone write to me, saying that if every word we say is of Jesus, ‘and not us’ type of thing.

    Well even Paul said something, and followed it up by
    whether this was of the Lord or not he did not know, but he gave an instruction., Paul was still Paul, God used Paul to minister His spirit and the gifts he gave Paul to use, to lay the right foundations after the cornerstone.
    And Paul like us all have to work out our salvaiton with fear and trembling…and to he who overcomes….
    Yes it is US who needs to overcome….and it is to US he will give a crown….as WE walk in the spirit and not the flesh….

  103. watchful Nov 15th 2010

    Roger – our DOCTRINES too must be put on the altar to be sifted! I’m very sad that people find it hard to tolerate when someone puts forward something that contradicts what we were taught IN BABYLON and brought out of Babylon with us!

  104. watchful Nov 15th 2010

    Bless you Kevin, I’ve enjoyed reading your comments too (I can still read on the forum thankfully, and all things working together for my good, I’m content to listen and learn although it’s frustrating when I can’t add my Amen! once in a while if I particularly like something.) :) I’m sure you’ll do as the Lord leads, it’s amazing how the Lord is present and working through all circumstances, but just to be in His will for you is the thing.

  105. Mrs Luther Nov 15th 2010

    Watchful talking of doctrines being put on the altar, just received this today….


  106. watchful Nov 15th 2010

    Mrs. Luther, I had a quick scan of the Austin-Sparks article, and the Lord never ceases to amaze me is what I will say! – so often I find there is a synchronicity in things when the Holy Spirit is speaking – thank you for sharing that.

    I think I understand what you mean about the other topic, whether it’s “us” or “Him”, but I really don’t feel qualified to get into that too much, I suspect it could get complicated and me and complications don’t get along very well. Sometimes it’s just a fine line, or a little tweak in our understanding, or just a matter of wording, but one way of looking at it is once we are ‘dead’, then it must be HIM! And yet we are preserved in Him, we exist as a “new creation” but drawing our life from the Father and no longer from the father of lies..think that’s all I’ll say about that or risk tying myself up in knots. :)

  107. Mrs Luther Nov 15th 2010


    Believe me, I am not either…and yes I hear what you are saying, and that is what I believe also….

    Just watch when people try to stop you from becoming what He intends you to be….each step of the way they say….’oh is that YOU, or the Lord….
    It has been used many times….it reminds me of when
    satan said to Jesus. “Did the word really say’

    Now I have learnt to answer, ‘It is me, and the Lord is using me to do what He called me to do,.and I am walking in obedience.

  108. Mrs Luther Nov 15th 2010

    Of course even in that there is learning maturity. I also believe those with the same gifting (for example) are to mentor the younger in their gifting.

    eg The prophetic…knowing when to deliver it, it all comes with maturity, and the older are to teach the younger in these things….I am not sure how this all works completely either, but I think that is part of it.

  109. Mrs Luther Nov 15th 2010

    Just been thinking about your comments on the ‘new creation’ and you are so right…if we get that and understand that right at the begining, then we shouldn’t have people still discussing this 20 – 30 yrs later..
    We are a new creation, and as we read His Words, being TRUTH, those words santifies us, as they cut between soul and spirit…that is why He tells us to STUDY to show yourselves approved by being able to rightly divide the Word of God…as we walk in obedience to that light, we are being transformed into His likeness, as as we obey Him, we as that ‘new creation’ that walks in the spirit and not the flesh, to fulfill what he has called us to do….

  110. Roger Souden Nov 15th 2010

    Watchful – in your comment to me where you said: Roger – our DOCTRINES too must be put on the altar to be sifted!

    I agree that we all need to do this..
    ummm.. ..is there something that you have seen me say..? :-) I am open to learning..?

  111. harvestisripe Nov 15th 2010

    Andrew – a couple that have come on here are a total discrase to the Body of Christ.

    I truely appologise to the others who have come to read here for their puffed up awful behavor – in fact God gives a pretty sobber warning to those who do such as this.

    Sad part I think they like to come and start trouble and division among the brothern.

  112. harvestisripe Nov 15th 2010

    Robert you are a very kind brother who truely loves he Lord and the body of Christ – please pay no attention to your false accuser.

  113. Mrs Luther Nov 15th 2010

    Nov 14th 2010
    A very valid concern, Roger.

    These guys – David and Robert – have been posting dubious stuff here for some months.

    In fact after causing a lot of trouble last time, David told me he was leaving the site and never coming back. I thought you were a man of your word, David – so I am surprised to see you back here.

    “And now Harvestripe says Robert is OK”.

    Andrew Can you calrify as to the true call on this?

  114. harvestisripe Nov 15th 2010

    Wow! Thanks Mrs Luther for correcting me – I apologise for the misunderstanding – I ment – Roger – not Robert – but – Roger Souden

    Blessings, Lynn

  115. Mrs Luther Nov 15th 2010

    Thanks Lynn,

    I was wondering…its the little foxes…just watching.
    Bless you.

  116. watchful Nov 15th 2010

    Mrs. Luther, this morning I’m reminded by the Lord of Moses and his life journey, that he was called and gifted to lead the children of Israel out of slavery. But he started out in the flesh and killed the Egyptian, which is not the way of the spirit. Similar to how the letter “kills” but the Spirit gives life. There was nothing wrong with his call and his gifts, and they are irrevocable, but it was Moses who was not ready. He needed to spend time in the wilderness, planting his life in the ground like a corn of wheat to die…only then could the Holy Spirit be the one to wield those gifts through him. I think just about all of us, if not all, start out the same way, with good intentions, wanting to please the Lord, but just not ready – the kind of faith that pleases Him is the kind that will trust Him to crucify our flesh..

  117. watchful Nov 15th 2010

    Roger, it’s come to my own realization that we don’t realize that all our beliefs/doctrines we came out of Babylon with, they are unclean things – save Christ and Him crucified – they need to be put on the altar to be purified and sifted. Could it be that there are some things that need tweaking, important things, but we walk in the assumption that what we have, we have it right. It’s good to take every assumption to the Lord and ask Him before dismissing another idea that may contradict our current understanding of scripture. Maybe another way of saying it, is that we need to offer our understanding of things as ‘devoted things’ to the Lord rather than holding on to them with a tight fist, remembering that it’s an upward call, that we are to follow the cloud not physically, but spiritually and in our understanding. He will take us from “here” to “there”.

    For the most part our doctrines are no different than all those ‘preachers’ on TV, who to me are the face of the false church – that to me is cause for concern, a wake-up call, because as a man thinketh so is he. When I have heard for example JVI (well-known TV preacher) talking about a physical rapture, there is absolutely no witness of the spirit, just deadness, and I even wonder if he really believes what he is saying in his heart of hearts.

    There is no accusation in what I’m saying, if there were, there would be three fingers pointing back at me, but I’m just dismayed and saddened when someone brings what could very well be “new treasures as well as old” to the table and they are pounced on and run out of town, instead of humbly taking these things to the Father and asking HIM to sift them, putting these things on the altar in other words instead of, dare I say it, reacting in the flesh.

  118. Sharon Nov 15th 2010

    Just want to add a thank you for the spiritual food offered here.
    It is good of you to share. I cannot add anything profound to the posts. Just a nod of amen.
    The body of Christ is a wonder- filled body.

  119. Roger Souden Nov 16th 2010

    Watchful – I thankyou for your last comment, I understand what you are saying – truly I do, :-)
    I appreciate your insight and words.. ..and I have just been back through the other comments here and reread them.

    Although I see some truth, I still cannot accept a statement that says Jesus was just a man that Christ indwelt. If the Lord Jesus was just a man – then who was the Christ who indwelt Him..?
    To me it is the Lord Jesus Himself who is the Messiah.

    On a slightly different subject, like Mrs Luther I also receive Austin-Sparks teachings – todays came from ‘Learning by Revelation’ on this link: http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/001035.html

    I hope you will enjoy it, as it covers a lot of things discussed in this and previous posts :-)

    In Him,

  120. Mrs Luther Nov 16th 2010

    Jesus also went out into the wilderness.
    There is a scripture that says ‘He learnt obedience by what he suffered, another says that though ‘trial and tribulation’ we enter the kindgom of God (which is within)
    I tend to concentrate more on the NT, as they are the ones who had the Holy Spirit, so it is their example I study (more closely) and who are the temple. I am not disagreeing with you at all, I
    read the OT as an example of what was to come.
    If that makes sense.

  121. Mrs Luther Nov 16th 2010

    Just read the Austin-Sparks article.
    I really admire him, so for me to say that I had a different experience to his teaching on revelation.
    I DO get revelation by studying.
    I used to read the NT to a friend in the States (I live in NZ) who was elderly. We both attended a very good church there, but she did not like reading the Bible, so I read it to her.
    She commented that when I read it, it came alive, I read it as I believed every word, and I was there, it was more real to me than this world. So there was much revelation, then when the practical came up I had to choose whether to obey the Word or not, as we all do.
    That is why I often say ‘study to show yourselves approved’ by rightly dividing the Word of God.
    And knowing it is TRUTH, and it santifies us and removes the idols from our hearts, so that we see God, it is not what I have been taught, it is what I have understood by revelation. Does that make sense.??

  122. Mrs Luther Nov 16th 2010


    Just received this also, it must be Austin Sparks day.
    This is also excellent….

  123. Mrs Luther Nov 16th 2010

    I posted the above bacause it also ties is beautifully with all we have been discussing….

    A good meaty teaching

  124. watchful Nov 16th 2010

    Roger, I don’t think they are saying that about Jesus quite the way you think – as He was so are we in the world. He had a weak and mortal body, just like ours, and He overcame just as we have to – He was the first-born of MANY sons. Remember Jesus and Paul too were misunderstood in the things they were saying. Appreciate the link, I’ll read that as time permits, I’m competing for the computer..

    Mrs. Luther – Amen, much of the OT is very much written as living parables which speak of spiritual truths for new covenant believers, as such it is rich, rich in teaching/understanding. The NT by itself would be like a horse without the carriage or maybe the other way around. Even the OT prophets are speaking and prophesying of the end of days.

  125. Mrs Luther Nov 16th 2010

    I agree Watchful I was not meaning to NOT read the OT, I am just saying I am part of the New Covenant, and as such I will live by their example and their lives, and they said to follow them as they followed Christ….and is the fuifllment of the Old..and now we are the living temple. Thats all,
    The last site I put up from Austin did cover both nicely, and tie them together well, as you rightly point out. Blessings Watchful… you are indeed faithul

  126. Ken Arrand Nov 16th 2010

    Perhaps I can raise something here that is “unsettling” me (I am not sure that is the right word but never mind). I would appreciate any input!

    We all want to leave Babylon behind. Babylon represents a heathen system/ practice/ belief etc.

    I have come out of the organised church structure but much of “it” is still in me and needs removal! Perhaps?

    Two examples:
    Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter etc all seem to have heathen origins. Should we be celebrating the “Feasts of the Lord” eg Leviticus 23: 2 (not feasts of the Jews or of Israel BUT of the Lord)?

    Probably not, as we do not see it in the New Testament. So should we be celebrating any feasts? If we indulge in any “feasts” can it be said that we are still in Babylon?

    The days of the week are all taken after heathen gods but we can’t very well change those!! We are in the world but not of the world!

    Again, amazingly, Jesus, Christ, Lord etc all have heathen origins. For example Constantine had 2 deities (gods he worshipped) and by democratic vote combined them. They were Zeus and Krishna = Hesus Krishna. In 16 century the letter J became used and was changed to Jesus Christ. See http://www.yahweh.com/htmls/Deception-6-2010.htm/

    Some articles say we should use the name Yahweh as that is His original revealed name and Yeshua

    Please, any comments?

  127. Andrew Nov 16th 2010

    Your 2nd point has been completely disproved, my friend. Many today read on Internet websites the most absurd things about the name of “Jesus” and are told they should only use “Yeshua”. But I myself have seen the word that the apostle Paul used for ‘Jesus’ in Greek. It was “Iesous” – almost exactly what we use when we say “Jesus”. A lot of these websites have been proven wrong by experts – but continue their nonsense anyway. Jesus’ name is as good as it ever was.

    God bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  128. Ken Arrand Nov 16th 2010

    Thanks Andrew!

    It helps to bring out queries and others with knowledge to correct that which is wrong. That keeps us on the straight and narrow road!


  129. watchful Nov 16th 2010

    Kevin, if I’m not mistaken, you have essentially been talking about not making an idol of the scriptures, about being sure it is Jesus we are seeking and not making the written word our god. We had a whole conversation about that here a while back but I forget what thread it was in. During the course of that conversation the Lord delivered me from this idolatry, it was like a little “tweak” in my spirit. Such a fine line it was! But I believe this is one of the biggest problems with the ‘false church’, along with other idolatries, and that repenting and being delivered of this is part of coming out of her.

  130. watchful Nov 16th 2010

    Sorry Mrs. L., didn’t mean to imply anything. Well truly God knows in what areas I need to pull up my socks, but I am continually amazed by His longsuffering and faithfulness when I am not. You’re from New Zealand too? I was born in Auckland but grew up in Canada from age 5…maybe Andrew could re-name this site “the Kiwi Connection”, lol.

  131. Jesus was the Word who dwelt amongst us.
    If we do not know what he said and did, how can we KNOW him?

    I know a pastor who was not able to see the error of Lakeland, he told me that he did not worship the Word. I told him Jesus said we were to obey it, how can you obey it, if you do not know what it says.
    What does the scripture say about the man who looks in the mirror (the Word of God) and then walks away…or the Word of God is a lamp unto our feet,how can we walk in the light if we do not know the Word?

    Those who teach the propserity gospel refused to know the Word, they ignored the scriptures ‘Do not store up on earth’, ‘Be content with what you have’
    You cannot serve Christ and mammon.

    Some who obeyed the Word are still standing on the ROCK, (what did he say about those who kept his word?) others have their idols stripped away.
    Look up GREED in the dictionary, it means having more than you need.
    And speaking of the name of Jesus, what was one of his names.?
    The Word of God.

  132. No problem Watchful.
    We are all adding our bits here and there, for consideration and correction and growth.

  133. watchful Nov 17th 2010

    Mrs. Luther, I completely agree with you that we are to read and know and understand and obey the word of God, all with the help of the Holy Spirit. It is our tutor. And like the Law, we cannot keep His word in and by ourselves. The written word points to a Person, Jesus, it is not the Person itself. Neither one of us I’m sure would think of putting our bible on a pedestal and bowing to it (I’m sorry Lord to even mention such a thing!). Consider that the early church didn’t even have the New Testament.

    Once again sister, in the will of the Lord, you are giving me an opening that I waited for, and I didn’t have to wait long – I just a few minutes ago read a post that Kevin wrote on the forum and it blessed me so much:

    ~ “All knowledge, even of scripture has to be surrendered back to Christ to bring personal revival and the restoration of the full anointing of Christ.

    All knowledge has to be surrendered back to God to restore the relationship mankind had before the fall.” ~

    Isn’t it interesting that this is also what I have been saying above about putting our understanding on the altar, the Holy Spirit is in sync as always and confirming to me – but Kevin here is unfolding this in more depth and the ultimate purpose, praise God! I hereby testify that the fruit of this in my life has been that the Lord is delivering me from my idols, one by one by one! I’m being changed from glory to glory, in real life and not just in theory. All glory and thanks to you Father!

  134. watchful Nov 17th 2010

    Also, just think it is entirely possible to obey the written word without knowing what it says, when His laws are written on our hearts!

    The whole reason really that David was so blessed and favoured by God was that he saw through the written word to the Author of it – proof is that he entered the sanctuary and ate the showbread with impunity and a clear conscience.

  135. Consider that the early church didn’t even have the New Testament.

    Oh but they did Watchful his name was Jesus, all he spoke they obeyed….

  136. Watchful said..
    “As David saw through the written word to the author”,

    Personally I have never thought to look through the Word, I saw the Word as the Word who is Jesus, as He was the Word that became flesh and dwelt amongst us.
    Jesus said if you have seen, me you have seen the Father

  137. watchful Nov 17th 2010

    Jesus was thought to be sacrilegious when He said:

    Jhn5:39-40 ” You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
    and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.”

    There is nothing new under the sun and we have the same problem with us today. Why was this written?….As an ensample to us. It didn’t have to be written, there were lots of things that weren’t – and it wasn’t written to tattle-tale on the Pharisees. Let us therefore examine ourselves.

  138. watchful Nov 17th 2010

    ~ “When knowledge remains dominant in us, and uses the written word to justify its existence , knowledge dominates the spirits rightful position in our hearts.

    This is the cause of a stalemate within us, and largely prevents personal revival.” ~

    Amen Kevin, this too brings clarity for me – may the Lord continue to lead you and bless you in your walk with Him.

  139. And he said ‘If you had known the scriptures you would have known of the day of my coming’.

    As you say watchful. Because they would not ‘come to him’, and they would not obey his words, …people today still hear his words and will not come to him.
    As you rightly point out.
    When they do come to him, they know to whom they come. He calls them, and they need to obey.

    When when he spoke his words, or his words are written, people need to ‘come to him’, believe that he is and follow him and obey him.

    As for knowledge, I know whom I believe, as I have read his words and know who he is. This I know.
    Because His words said it.

  140. watchful Nov 17th 2010

    It boils down to which tree are we eating of, Knowledge of Good & Evil, or Tree of Life. They’re both trees, they both look pretty similar, so it’s that fine line again, the difference is subtle. But the reality of course is that they are starkly opposite. Tree of Knowledge is idolatry and rebellion, plain and simple.

  141. Watchful I believe Jesus is the tree of Life,
    He and His Word can be trusted to bring and give life, just as it says. We can believe in and trust that.

  142. Watchful,

    The following verses show the true identity of Christ, The Word of God.

    Understanding the truth of this, is the key to finding our true identity in His Body, and the part He wants us to play.

    It is only if we see Him as the Head of His body, in His own identity, that He can lead us, by His Holy Spirit, that dwells within us, to find our rightful place in His body.

    Understanding this is the key to how He can live in us now, enabling us to walk as He did, and yet He will still return , in the future, to complete that which is yet to come.

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.
    Joh 1:2 From the very beginning the Word was with God.
    Joh 1:3 And with this Word, God created all things. Nothing was made without the Word. Everything that was created
    Joh 1:4 received its life from him, and his life gave light to everyone.



    Col 1:15 Christ is exactly like God, who cannot be seen. He is the first-born Son, superior to all creation.
    Col 1:16 Everything was created by him, everything in heaven and on earth, everything seen and unseen, including all forces and powers, and all rulers and authorities. All things were created by God’s Son, and everything was made for him.
    Col 1:17 God’s Son was before all else, and by him everything is held together.


    Col 1:18 He is the head of his body, which is the church. He is the very beginning, the first to be raised from death, so that he would be above all others.


  143. watchful Nov 18th 2010

    Bless you Kevin, I will meditate on those passages.. may we be like Job who after his tribulations and the crucifixion of his flesh, went from hearing/reading ABOUT God, to SEEING Him as He is. Amen.

  144. We will Watchful we will, many already see him as he is.
    He has been preparing them already, they stood when others followed the false, they knew Him, so they knew what was truth and what was error.

    They were the ones he used to declare

    And now many more will go through that process.
    I believe they will be stripped of everything, that hinders them, and they will sit down and open their Bibles, and read His Word and say, OK Now you have all of me, Now I will follow you.

    As it is said of Jesus, he learnt obedience by what he suffered.
    This suffering will create obedience….and our freedom. Who the Son sets free is free indeed.

  145. Watchful
    You coming back to NZ anytime.
    My home is always open to you.

  146. watchful Nov 18th 2010

    Thank you Mrs. Luther, I very much appreciate your kindness – God knows, I may just be back in N.Z. some day, there’s that passage of scripture that talks about everyone going back to their own homeland in a time of judgment which I kind of keep on a back burner..

    Something to bear in mind, but It’s kind of just coming to my awareness in so many words, that Jesus was not under the letter of the Law Himself, but was led by the Spirit:

    Rom 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

    Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

    Remember Job saying, my ears had heard of you, but now my eyes SEE you – this was what I meant by David SEEING through the Law to the Author of it, when he violated the letter of the Law in order to eat the showbread, and later Jesus and His disciples were ‘harvesting’ grain to eat on the Sabbath. (in our age of printing presses, we both hear and read about the Lord in the scriptures)

    This corresponds to:

    Isa 30:20 Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will SEE them.

    Isa 30:21 Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”

    In other words being led by the Spirit as we SEE Him as He is. (and we can only see Him to the degree the veil of flesh is taken away) The Holy Spirit will never violate the written word in spirit, but He may violate the letter as we understand it. He is the Lord of the Law.

  147. watchful Nov 18th 2010

    Here is another example of where Jesus was not bound by the letter:

    Mat 17:24 After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax [fn]?”

    Mat 17:25 “Yes, he does,” he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes-from their own sons or from others?”

    Mat 17:26 “From others,” Peter answered. “THEN THE SONS ARE EXEMPT,” Jesus said to him.

    Mat 17:27 “But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line…”

  148. Jesus replied – “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me” (John 14:23,24).

    Watchful I don’t think Jesus was talking about keeping the law, He came to FULFIl the law…as in healing on the sabbath..

    He was talking about obeying his word. No the law.

  149. And just to be real clear, I am in no way speaking of ‘Word of faith’ teaching.. as in.’Your word says it, therefore you have to do it…etc etc

  150. Watchful,

    The following verses show the most important part of Christs identity, in that through Him as our high priest, the curtain to the most Holy place was torn and remains open.

    We have access to Him and through Him. The veil has been removed.

    Even in our flesh, by faith we can go to Him in the most Holy place.

    Religion tries to stitch up the curtain and tell us we have to go back to using another priest.

    New age tries to tell us that Christ dwells in us as Christ consciousness only, so we are Christ, and that He no longer Rules and serves in His own identity as our high priest.

    The truth is below.

    Watchful, take the time to read and understand these Chapters in Hebrews, for in them are the Keys for the most Holy place, as we are now, through Christ who shed His blood for us.

    In His love


    Heb 8:1 What I mean is that we have a high priest who sits at the right side of God’s great throne in heaven.
    Heb 8:2 He also serves as the priest in the most holy place inside the real tent there in heaven. This tent of worship was set up by the Lord, not by humans.
    Heb 8:3 Since all priests must offer gifts and sacrifices, Christ also needed to have something to offer.
    Heb 8:4 If he were here on earth, he would not be a priest at all, because here the Law appoints other priests to offer sacrifices.


    Heb 9:11 Christ came as the high priest of the good things that are now here. He also went into a much better tent that wasn’t made by humans and that doesn’t belong to this world.
    Heb 9:12 Then Christ went once for all into the most holy place and freed us from sin forever. He did this by offering his own blood instead of the blood of goats and bulls.

  151. watchful Nov 19th 2010

    Oh boy, this is one of my tie-myself-up-in-knots days – I’ve kind of lost my train of thought from when I posted this morning, and I’m not feeling my best today. Mrs. Luther I agree with you about obeying the words of Jesus, that passage of scripture blesses me, especially where He says, “we will come to him and make our home with him” – not sure how I veered off into the law, think I’m mixing up two topics, lol.

    Amen, Kevin, thanks for those, I’ll definitely take them to my place of prayer..

  152. Take care Watchful.

    My wife and I live in NZ.

    I have shared what I was prompted to for you , regarding Christ existing and serving us as our high priest in the most Holy place, while at the same time His Holy Spirit lives in us.

    This is it from me for now.

    In His love


  153. I love you to bits Watchful.

  154. Therese Nov 19th 2010

    Thanks and blessings Kevin, wasn’t quite finished when I had to leave the computer yesterday evng., family members needed it. I felt in my spirit that this was from the Lord, and weep because I’m not getting the revelation yet.. but I do hear the caution about not veering into either error of religion or ‘new age’. Jesus Christ is the beginning and the end, and everything in between! I will keep knocking..all the best to you and your family. Lord, bless my kiwi brothers and sisters here!

  155. Therese Nov 19th 2010

    ..oops, that’s “watchful” above, Therese is my first name!

  156. Therese

    What I was being prompted to share with you, was that the new age influence is already mixed up with much of christian teaching.

    This can be seen by those that say because Christ has already returned, as He lives in us, that all the prophecy regarding His future return , judgment etc has been fulfilled.

    To say this is to take Christ from His judgment seat, to remove Him from His throne, and to take away His separate identity as the Head of His body, and as our High Priest whom through we have access to the most Holy place.

    While it is true that the kingdom of God comes within us, it is also true that the Kingdom of God exists out side of us , in the heavenly realm .

    To only see and acknowledge Christ within us , is to rob ourselves of the sovereign external all powerful all knowing presence of Christ , who fills all things, and who all things where created through.


    On a personal level, if there is uncertainty about the external presence and power of Christ, we are robbed of the very thing we need to bring about personal revival.

    Self in us does not want to recognize and surrender its power to the sovereignty of Christ, for to do this means that Christ will take His rightful place on the throne in our hearts.

    The distortion of new age influence, leaves us trying to surrender to our selves to ourselves, identifying only with Christs life force within us, which all living things contain, whether they acknowledge Christ as head or not.

    This leaves us deceived into worshiping and seeking the creation , the life force within us, and not the separate sovereign all powerful creator.


    It is only when Christ is seen and acknowledged as a separate, sovereign all powerful identity , that we can truly surrender self to the cross, which allows the kingdom of Christ to come and rule within us.

    To acknowledge and see the truth of these things, is not to wait , leaving the kingdom of Christ to some future event.
    It is simply acknowledging and seeing that we are created by Christ , who created all things, and that Christ exists in His own right as part of the God head.

    Eastern religion and new age, all only see and acknowledge the God given life force of Christ that exists within all created beings.

    To worship or seek only the life force within, is to worship and seek only the creation that we are.

    The distortion of this influence in Christianity, has us claiming the kingdom now, within, when in reality we are still walking in the unsurrendered power of self, only we have renamed self the Kingdom of Christ.

    There will be no real power or fullness of Christ if we walk like this. It will all be words and emotion with out the real power that Christs True Kingdom possesses .


    To acknowledge the separate all powerful identity of Christ and the God head , enables us to surrender our own identity ( self ) to the cross, and to be filled with the power of external all powerful kingdom of God .

    In this way we become one with Christ, and the Kingdom of God rules within us, and works through us. We walk as Jesus did , flesh and blood connected to the power and authority of Gods Kingdom by the Holy spirit who serves Christ , and tells us and guides us to what Christ would have us do.

  157. Therese

    In summary, Religion tries to sew up the curtain to most Holy place, telling us that man is our priest, when Christ is our priest.

    The new age distortion in christianity tries to tell us that we don’t need any external priest as the priest has returned and lives within us.

    The truth is, as is written in Hebrews:
    That Christ is our priest who has given us access to the most Holy place , and that the Holy Spirit through Christ , is how the kingdom of God reigns within us, while at the same time Christ reigns in His own right apart from us, and will return in the future to fulfill all prophecy that is yet to completed.

  158. Roger Souden Nov 20th 2010

    Thankyou Kevin for the simplicity of the explanation above.

    That puts into words what I couldn’t. :-)

  159. Roger Souden Nov 20th 2010

    P.S. – Should be: That puts into words what I couldn’t see. :-)

  160. watchful Nov 20th 2010

    All I can do is bow down and give thanks to my heavenly Father for His goodness and kindness and faithfulness in herding this dumb little sheep away from the edge of a cliff – I hear exactly what you’re sharing here Kevin, praise God! and it comforts and satisfies my heart – today when I was again reading the scriptures you shared, it was dawning on me that I was forgetting about Christ “externally”. Yes I completely agree, how that subtly would leave us without Someone, Jesus our High Priest, outside of ourselves to surrender self to – I’m so glad you stayed around a little longer dear brother, may the Lord bless you greatly, He is such a faithful Shepherd!

  161. All Praise Honor and Glory to Christ our risen Lord.

    He sees from on high all that goes on in our lives down here, and by the power of His Holy Spirit, working through the different parts of His Body, He leads us all home down the narrow path that leads to His eternal kingdom.

    His servant Kevin.

  162. Kevin. That was so well explained, combining all aspects, what you wrote here, is especially what I was referring to as many are waiting for that kingdom to come, or others are taking this world for Jesus, and yet many have ignored that it is written the kingdom is within, which you describe so well below…..

    “Self in us does not want to recognize and surrender its power to the sovereignty of Christ, for to do this means that Christ will take His rightful place on the throne in our hearts”.

  163. After the new birth, and the old man is crucified, and when we seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and He is on the throne of our hearts, then the ‘old man’ is continually being put to death
    the ‘new creation’ chooses each day to follow him, in the spirit and not the flesh….the many times the flesh does rise up, we repent and ask forgiveness and next time the flesh will be easier to subdue, as we grow in Him to maturity. this is how I see it.

  164. Mrs Luther

    I take no credit myself, for It was Christ who gave me the way of explaining it.

    He wants us all to walk as He did, recognizing the external presence and sovereignty of God our Fathers Kingdom, yet walking with the power of the kingdom of God within us.

    In the love of our Lord Jesus Christ


  165. And what you say is true Mrs Luther,

    As we surrender over self to the sovereignty of Christ, His kingdom increases within us, as self decreases.

  166. Well I will thank you Kevin, because as Christ gave you all you have and know, it was you who obeyed and walked in it, when you could have been like Demas, having loved this present world and walked away.
    Bless you both

  167. The ‘both’ was you and your wife, I saw you telling Watchful that you and your wife live in NZ…

  168. I don;t believe the ‘self’ decreases, I believe, once we allow Jesus to be first in our lives, then we are a new creation as He says.

  169. Mrs Luther said

    “I don;t believe the ’self’ decreases, I believe, once we allow Jesus to be first in our lives, then we are a new creation as He says.”

    Mrs Luther, I believe both instances are true.
    For some , they allow Jesus to become first in their lives from the start of their walk.

    For others as you said the flesh ( self ) rises up and opposes the Holy Spirit. In this case as the flesh ( self ) decreases , it makes more room for Christ to increase.
    This is particularly true of selfs intellect, in that we can know all about Jesus, but not submit to His Lordship within.

    We are complicated and educated beings, so praise Christ that He knows us all personally, and that He is kind and patient with us.

  170. In other words when we allow Jesus to be first in our lives, then we are a new creation as He says.

    Some make a commitment to Jesus without allowing Him to be first in their lives, so they are a work in progress, so to speak.

  171. Take care brothers and sisters in Christ. I’m not sure when or if I’ll be back here.

    I will see what Christ leads me to.

    In the love of our Lord Jesus Christ


  172. Thank you Kevin

    You explained that very well, glad you stopped by.

    I pray you will return, as I believe the Lord may have you share more of what is in your heart and mind

  173. watchful Nov 20th 2010

    I missed all the conversation, having gone to bed and to ponder these things on the other side of the planet! Amen Kevin and Mrs. Luther, thank you Kevin for what you brought out of your storehouse, or perhaps freshly baked bread. the devil and self are devious and subtle, trying to find any subtle way they can to avoid the inevitable! Self would rather walk on hot coals for God than surrender lordship to Him, and I think I’m one of His more stubborn children without a doubt, but don’t know why – it’s a matter of trust maybe. Well, He knows, and together we are getting to the bottom of it and straightening my crooked paths, because with God nothing is impossible, and i know what He has promised. Kevin whether we meet this side of heaven again or not, I wish you the grace and peace and love of our Saviour Jesus Christ to be with you always brother. I hope along with Mrs. Luther that the Lord will allow you to stop by now and again..

  174. Dear Kevin,

    Before you go away, I followed with interest of how the Lord inspired you with Truth in helping Therese to have better incites into the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within the heart/soul of the believer seeking only the Truth from the Spirit of God. The Word of God, Jesus Christ is Truth Personified, but because of the mind of flesh, the deception of new age Gnosticism can reason within us and substitute the Truth of the Word of God with the confusion of the world that seeks to justify ourselves. There were several individual blogging brothers that were shouting the wisdom of this world mingled with their fleshly conception of the Truth of Word of God bringing unrest to many. The pride of the flesh through their reasoning was appealing to the self idolatrous nature of man, until the shouting was stopped by the wise, as the voice of the Holy Spirit began to resonate in the heart/soul of people who are seasoned in and through the Holy Spirit of God. To God’s praise, you Kevin, ventured in with several others and set at ease many troubled precious souls of the redeemed of God.

    The spirit of my mind is a willing receptor to hear truth, but is not the Mind of the Holy Spirit Who is absolute Truth. I think you would agree that all of us, if left to our selves, can make Truth to be what we want it to be to satisfy self, so long as we are comfortable within ourselves.

    Kevin, there have been several attempts in the forum to create discussions on the Truth of Holy Communion, and you on the most recent one wrote:

    True. All the things we do in which we are not one with Christ, cause separation, and if this is left unreconciled , will lead to various problems.

    Taking communion CEV
    1Co 11:27 But if you eat the bread and drink the wine in a way that isn’t worthy of the Lord, you sin against his body and blood.
    1Co 11:28 That’s why you must examine the way you eat and drink.
    1Co 11:29 If you fail to understand that you are the body of the Lord, you will condemn yourselves by the way you eat and drink.
    1Co 11:30 That’s why many of you are sick and weak and why a lot of others have died.

    If we ask for Christs blood to cleanse us of any sin/ separation at the time of communion, He is making us clean and keeping us joined to His body , and we wont bring condemnation on ourselves.
    There is supernatural power in Christs Blood !

    I gave an invitation to all who were seeking the Truth to at least investigate several suggested selections from the apologetic writings on this Holy Matter. Even since the conception of the “Communion” thread, I have made several revisions for the sake of clarity on one particular heading called “The Holy Spirit’s Essential of Truth”. If the Holy Spirit is in the work, or not in the work then in either case I would hear from you, or Andrew or Roger or avoice or whosoever has the Holy Spirit of all understanding residing within the heart/soul of His members within the Body of Christ Jesus. See http://www.excellent-valley.org/Communion/Pg2_Immunity.htm#43a

    Interestingly, when ever this subject of Holy Communion was approached, there was a lot of noisy web paisteings and chatter that immediately covered over and buried any attempt to bring Light to what is covered in obscurity by the prince of darkness.

    Robert Glenn

  175. Robert

    Below is from a post I made on the forum and is what I feel prompted to share with you.


    What I found in my walk with Christ, is that most of what I know about the bible, and what Christ has revealed to me, was all for my teaching, to make me a vessel that Christ could work through, and was not for me to minister from, or teach from.

    Christ gave me a very clear picture about this with the example of some one studying to be a Dentist. The years involved to become qualified were preparation. When a patient comes in with a sore tooth, they don’t want to know about what you learnt to become a dentist, they just want you to fix their tooth.

    I think one stumbling block today for many, is the insights we get for ourselves to grow, are misunderstood as being for teaching others, or for building a ministry on, when in fact they are for us, to prepare us for the real work in Christ.

    We don’t want to end up camping short of our true destination in Christ.




    In summary, truth alone in our work, is only one measurement to consider regarding the Holy Spirits presence with our work.

    The most important consideration is the , how and when we are to deliver the truth , for in this regard we can easily be out of step with Christ, and this will result in the message not being received, due to the lack of anointing with our work.

    Robert, for me when I read your work, I don’t believe the delivery of the work is in step with the Holy Spirit.

    Presenting such truths in a detailed and academic way will make it difficult to impart the truth of the message into the spirit of those you are trying to reach.

    I would suggest that you consider what I have said about my own walk in this regard, and that you go back to Christ to find out what He wants you to share, and how He wants you to do this.

    In His love Kevin.

  176. Dear Kevin,

    I’m very old school. When a person writes a letter to a person they respect, the salutation usually began with “Dear”. I still get letters from dear old Uncle Sam, addressing me as “Dear Mr. Taxpayer”. I certainly respect your endeavors to be seen as a man of God who has all the necessary teaching credentials from the learning experience you have gathered during your 3 and 1/2 years of walking in the desert. Since the Lord’s resurrection call into my dead life, I’ve been continually paying my taxes of the flesh long before you left the hypocrisy of the church to wander in the wilderness. The thing is Kevin, I didn’t leave the hypocrisy of all the churches because of my superiority in knowledge of the holy, for if I did I would be a greater hypocrite than the leadership that is caught up in the traditions and teachings of men. I know Whom I have believed; for years ago I saw, in the stark barrenness of a desert, the Lord Jesus Christ dressed in His high priestly garments. The wind was blowing and the Words that He spoke to me in power and authority filled the whole of my being. The language was foreign to me, but nevertheless the Spirit of the message is indelibly imprinted with its call upon my soul.

    Dear Kevin, I complemented you, because of how you addressed the Gnosticism that was an offense to the Holy Spirit of God, but you are no different than so many others that are on this forum. You have knowledge and wisdom from God even as they have knowledge, but none are complete in themselves, even as I am not complete without the wholeness that is in the Body of Jesus Christ, Who is the Head. What I give, I give freely to whosoever has spiritual ears to hear. Many quench the Spirit of God because of intellectual puffed up knowledge. But if I, being among the least, have knowledge by the gift of God and that knowledge glorifies the Almighty God of Creation, why then do you take offense in the scholarship of a heart that has the approval of God, though no man hears because of their own pride of scholarship? If I, by the Spirit of God, take even the knowledge of this world, using it as a tool to confound the wisdom of those theologians who are wise in their own heart, and they eventually repent, acknowledging their ignorance of the Spirit and the Power of the Word, is not God glorified and not the wisdom I gained from His Grace?

    Seeing that you have quickly judged from the spirit of your mind, then let me say: You said well in most of what you said to Therese, but you do not have experiential spiritual knowledge in Holy Communion. Your own words show your unbelief and hypocrisy in trying to justify the remnants of your intellectual understanding from the doctrines of intellectual men, who place The Almighty Infinite Holy, Holy, Holy God in the confines of their finite minds. On the one hand you said: “There is supernatural power in Christs Blood !”, but on the other hand with your unbelief you left off in your paisteing of scripture, 1 Corinthians 11 verse 27 thru 30, the beginning explanatory revelation of Paul in 1 Corinthians 11 verse 23 thru 25.

    For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:  And when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is My body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of Me.  After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in My blood: this do you: as often as you drink it, you do it in remembrance of Me.

    verse 26 For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do show the Lord’s death till he come.

    It is not just bread that we eat, but it is the real Bread of Life come down from heaven even the Body of Jesus Christ just as Jesus the Word specifies with “this is” and as Paul in union with the Word specifying “this” Bread as being Christ. And certainly the same can be said for the metonymy of the cup after the supper, for that cup contains the Word powered, sanctifying Blood of the New Covenant, which we drink in faith. But our faith can be stunted by what is intellectually perceive as just bread and just the fruit of the vine, and not in the glory and power of the very Word, Who was made flesh through the Spirit of God the Father.

    There are so many protestant theologians who follow after the intellectual mind of the 26 year old lawyer, John Calvin, but John Calvin makes this statement concerning the real Flesh and the real Blood of Jesus Christ, from The Institutes of the Christian Church, Book 4, Chapter 17 Section 7. :

    “It is not sufficient, while omitting all mention of flesh and blood, to recognize this communion merely as spiritual. It is impossible fully to comprehend it in the present life. I am not satisfied with the view of those who, while acknowledging that we have some kind of communion with Christ, only make us partakers of the Spirit, omitting all mention of flesh and blood. As if it were said to no purpose at all, that his flesh is meat indeed, and his blood is drink indeed; that we have no life unless we eat that flesh and drink that blood; and so forth. Therefore, it is evident that full communion with Christ goes beyond their description, which is too confined.”

    In the next paragraph Calvin falsely demurs’ with his disclaimer:

    “If, indeed, it be lawful to put this great mystery into words, a mystery which I feel, and therefore freely confess that I am unable to comprehend with my mind, so far am I from wishing any one to measure its sublimity by my feeble capacity. Nay, I rather exhort my readers not to confine their apprehension within those too narrow limits, but to attempt to rise much higher than I can guide them. For whenever this subject is considered, after I have done my utmost, I feel that I have spoken far beneath its dignity. And though the mind is more powerful in thought than the tongue in expression, it too is overcome and overwhelmed by the magnitude of the subject. All then that remains is to break forth in admiration of the mystery, which it is plain that the mind is inadequate to comprehend, or the tongue to express. I will, however, give a summary of my view as I best can, not doubting its truth, and therefore trusting that it will not be disapproved by pious breasts.”

    By the Grace of God, a living member in the Body of Jesus Christ,
    Robert “Glenn”

  177. Dear Robert,

    It is interesting that you would take my comment on the communion thread as an indication of my personal understanding regarding the meaning of Holy Communion.

    My response was specifically for Avoice to confirm some insights she had that were relevant to her walk with Christ.

    I chose to not get any further involved in the thread, as in my short time on the forum I have noticed that many topics like this spiral very quickly into contention between different parts of the body , and none of this is glorifying to our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I took your invitation to view your work and comment on “if the Holy Spirit was in the work”, as a genuine invitation, and I answered according to what I was given by Christ for you to consider.

    It is interesting that you would take from my response that I was offended by the work, when this is not the case.

    The hurdles that we have encountered in our brief exchanges here, are what is crippling the body of Christ in many forms of fellowship, and is why Christ has called me away from this site, back to the work He wants me to do, in reaching those who don’t know Him.

    Christ Holy Spirit will never divide His body.

    It is the unsurrendered intellect of man fighting over differing views of doctrine that causes many of the divisions.

    The further we get away from the simple message of the cross as the apostle Paul preached, the further we get away from the spiritual power of Christ who is the only one who can destroy the divisions of the intellect and bring His body together.

    Regarding your question about ” If the Holy Spirit is in the work, or not in the work ” this is really between you and Christ. If Christ has called you to do this work, His anointing and confirmation will be with the work.

    I’m going to leave things here, knowing that Christ can and will answer all the things we need to truly serve Him in His will.

    In the Love of our Lord Jesus Christ


  178. Dear Kevin,
    Thank you for your true sincerity, and my apology. I reviewed what you said and saw truth in your appraisal, especially on my referenced link on the Holy Spirit Essentials of Truth. I had recently spent some time in adding and modifying that section with multiple revisions, and in my zeal to bring it to clarity to its importance, the message got overcooked in verbiage and pasteings. The heart of the message on 1st John 5 verse 8 is good: Its just that the messenger is flawed. Bye the way, we are all in unbelief one way or another, and our collective hypocrisy is showing its fruits to the world
    Once again modified, Robert Glenn