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Jesus Trumps Everyone Else!

(18 posts) (10 voices)

Started 1 year ago by spruikah
Latest reply from ChildofGod

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spruikah
Member

I thought I would start a thread about this topic since someone questioned me on it on another thread.

My premise for this thread is simply this: Jesus Trumps Everyone Else. What I mean by that is that Jesus has MORE authority than anyone else in the world, ever... even everyone else in the Bible. Whenever there seems to be a conflict between what Jesus is recorded as having said and what someone else is recorded as having said, Jesus TRUMPS Everyone Else! And that means that we should accept what Jesus said in preference to the other person.

Here is an example:

Moses said: an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth
Jesus said: love your enemies and turn the other cheek.

I cannot follow both of them at the same time. They are mutually exclusive. What is the answer? JESUS TRUMPS EVERYONE ELSE! So, what do I do? I love my enemies and turn the other cheek and NOT pay them back an eye for an eye.

Does that make sense?

I would like to hear what other people think about this. Some people have argued that such things as red letter Bibles are wrong, because they give Jesus more authority than the other characters in the Bible. I argue that THEY are wrong for saying that, and that I can prove that the Bible gives Jesus more authority than everyone else and that JESUS TRUMPS EVERYONE ELSE!

I can also clearly prove from the Bible that all the NT Churches were based on obedience to the teachings of Jesus, and so the letters of Paul are always to be understood in that context and not with a warped teaching that claims Paul taught something different to Jesus (or worse still) something better.

JESUS TRUMPS EVERYONE ELSE! AMEN??

Posted 1 year ago #
debonnaire
Member

Spruikah says : "I can also clearly prove from the Bible that all the NT Churches were based on obedience to the teachings of Jesus, and so the letters of Paul are always to be understood in that context and not with a warped teaching that claims Paul taught something different to Jesus (or worse still) something better".

Amen !

The apostles were mostly called in their writings to explain/reveal what Jesus has accomplished.
Jesus and Him crucified
(plus there was also prophesies and teachings on practical behaviour ...) but nothing that contradicts or supersedes.

The red words ( Jesus' words) marked in red in some Bible are what made me become a believer. It was God talking to me when i first read the Gospel , even if these 4 gospels i was reading had NOT these words in red. It is the Holy Spirit + Jesus ' words that called me to Jesus. So these phrases in red have a special place in my heart :] but i read and study everything in the light of the Eternal Covenant accomplished by Jesus, my favourite book is maybe Hebrews.

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken1
Member

spruikah said
Here is an example:

Moses said: an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth
Jesus said: love your enemies and turn the other cheek.

I cannot follow both of them at the same time. They are mutually exclusive. What is the answer? JESUS TRUMPS EVERYONE ELSE! So, what do I do? I love my enemies and turn the other cheek and NOT pay them back an eye for an eye.

Does that make sense?

Ken1.
You ask does that make sense - My answer, it needs more explanation.

Was Moses wrong then? of course not, the bible NEVER contradicts it's self and when we think it does we need to ask ourselves what are we not understanding correctly.

I say Moses was right and that Jesus is right, you may say, how come?

Very simple, that is how it was in Moses' time in the dispensation of the Mosiac law. Jesus was preaching of the coming Kingdom, which Israel rejected.

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

We are now in the dispensation of the Church and what applied in the time of the law does not apply to the Church. So different rules so to speak apply to different peoples. So not a good comparison in my humble opinion hence, what Moses said was right to the people in that time and Jesus was right in what He said to the people of His time and the coming time.

Did Jesus and Paul preach the same gospel? NO, but hold on!

Jesus preached the coming Kingdom of God "On Earth" Jesus would have set up the Kingdom of God on earth at that time if Israel had not rejected Him, but they did and it was taking from them and giving to a nation (Church) bringing forth the fruit thereof (Matt 21:43)

Paul preached Kingdom of God in heaven.

BUT! Kingdom of God on earth (Millenium) will be preached once again to Israel by the two witnesses and the 144000, in the 7 year tribulation.

So it is all a matter of who is being spoken to, is why i said all of that.

Blessings.

Ken1.

Posted 1 year ago #
NewJerusalem
Inactive

The AUTHORITY that Moses, Jesus, Paul...or ANY person who is a born again child of God.....is given TO THEM by God the Father. He gives them AUTHORITY to speak and do what He instructs them personally by His Spirit.

Moses was not given the AUTHORITY to be the SAVIOR.
In His 3 1/2 yr mininstry on earth, Jesus was NOT given the AUTHORITY to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. (Peter was given that AUTHORITY)

Jesus was exalted by God, the Father, AFTER Jesus FULFILLED all the prophecies, the Law, and the WILL OF THE FATHER.

God AUTHORIZES every child of His to speak what He instructs them to speak; do what He instructs them to do.

Therefore, EVERY INSPIRED WORD OF GOD HAS THE SAME AUTHORITY BECAUSE IT IS GIVEN BY GOD.

There is no HIERARCHY AMONG MEN/WOMEN who are born again.

Gal 3:26 NASB - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 NASB - For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Gal 3:28 NASB - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 NASB - And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Posted 1 year ago #
spruikah
Member

Thanks Debonnaire, for your comments. I also read other parts of the Bible, lol. Some of my favorite parts come from the Epistles. It's great that you see a special place for the red letters, which unfortunately have been tossed aside for the most part in most churches. They preach the teachings of Paul without the foundation of Jesus, and even Paul said that no other foundation could be laid other than Jesus Christ.

As for New Jerusalem and Ken1. Personally, I think we have been taught a tradition about how every word in the Bible is infallible and of equal value to every other part. It's scary to even question such a tradition because we hold it so dear. But the problem with that tradition is that it can blind us to the Word of God made flesh (John 1:1, John 1:14, Revelation 19:13)

Saying that every word is equal in authority doesn't make sense, and you have even agreed yourself. You say that Moses' teachings don't apply to us any more because we are under a "different dispensation" now. All Christians understand that we are under a NEW covenant, the NEW Testament.

Hebrews 8:13 (debonnaire's favorite book) says:
By calling this covenant new, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and ageing will soon disappear.

So, it is clearly saying the Old Testament is obsolete and will soon disappear.

Compare that to what Jesus said about His words:
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. (Luke 21:33)

So, we see that Jesus' words will never pass away, but the Old Testament will (and has). Therefore they are NOT equal in authority. If they were, we would still have to follow all the laws of Moses. It's that simple.

The reason it can be hard to accept the truth of the matter is that we have been blinded by our tradition which says that every word in the Bible comes directly from God and it is all of equal authority. But as I have just shown, the Bible itself does not teach that.

So, in the example of Moses vs. Jesus, my statement remains true:

JESUS TRUMPS EVERYONE ELSE!

More pointedly, Ken1 and NewJerusalem, do you think it is wrong to say that Jesus' words are of higher authority than those of any other person?

Posted 1 year ago #
NewJerusalem
Inactive

Yes, I do. God is 3 PERSONS. The Father's Words are EQUAL in authority to the Son's Words and the HOLY SPIRIT'S WORDS, because the Son and the Holy Spirit do NOTHING in their own INITIATIVE.

Jhn 8:28 KJV - Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I DO NOTHING OF MYSELF; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Jhn 14:26 KJV - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

JESUS says that ALL of the Law must be fulfilled. None of the Law has been "done away with".

IT IS THE "METHOD" OF FULFILLING THE LAW THAT HAS CHANGED.
NOT by obedience by the flesh, but FULFILLING BY THE INDWELLING SPIRIT OF GOD AND NATURE OF JESUS CHRIST.

Mat 5:17 KJV - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 KJV - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:19 KJV - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:20 KJV - For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 3:26 KJV - To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom 3:27 KJV - Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 KJV - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 3:31 KJV - Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.(THROUGH FAITH)

1Jo 3:4 KJV - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jo 3:5 KJV - And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1Jo 3:6 KJV - Whosoever ABIDETH IN HIM sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.

Posted 1 year ago #
Onesimus
Member

The thing that is being missed is that we don’t have “the words of Jesus”. We have the scriptures which contain reports of a small sample of what Jesus taught. The people giving those reports were either witnesses themselves (Matthew, John and maybe Mark) or they compiled reports from others who were witnesses.

If we take the parts of Jesus’ teaching that are reported as part of scripture and remove them from the context of the rest of scripture we are highly prone to misinterpreting and misapplying those teachings.

If "Jesus words" were more important than the rest of scripture then God could very easily have given us books of His sayings and teachings alone, instead of giving us 4 gospels, an account of the early church, several letters and a book of prophecy.

But He chose to reveal Himself and His purposes through latter.

Posted 1 year ago #
John Sutton
Moderator

I haven't the time to write much this minute, so just a thought here:

Whereas The Word (Jesus, most specifically, and the Written Word as well) is "perfect", the other persons (Peter for example) were not "perfect". I do see that The Bible keeps account of the mistakes of men (Peter denying Jesus three times for example), and also how The Lord corrected them and restored them when they Repented.

In that light, yes, Jesus' and His Words are in the highest esteem within The Bible.

That does NOT, however, lessen anything else in The Bible.

Things that are in The Bible about people besides Jesus (and their mistakes) are incredibly important in understanding Him - as well as His directly recorded Words.

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken1
Member

Late here, so back to you in the morning spruikah
, all being well DV.

Blessings.

Ken1.

Posted 1 year ago #
Deborah H.
Member

@ Spruikah: You stated: "So, we see that Jesus' words will never pass away, but the Old Testament will (and has." AND "All Christians understand that we are under a NEW covenant, the NEW Testament.

The OT is still just as important as the NT because without both, the prophecy cannot run throughout the whole Bible. i.e. the rivers in Genesis 2 are prophetic of the different spirits (Jesus - symbolic of the good spirit, the Pichon River, the good water, the water of life & the evil spirits represented by the Gihon, the Hidekkel and the Euphrates) that have run through the different empires of the world. The Euphrates is the only remaining river and will soon dry up like the others (with the exception of the Pichon). It will all come full circle. There is alot more to this put too lengthy to write. It is all so fascinating!!!! This prophecy is huge It runs from the Genesis and finishes in Revelation.

There are many more as well so to say the OT is not valid any longer or has passed away in incorrect. Unless of course one is taking the Word at face value.

Posted 1 year ago #
thos
Member

spruikah

2 Tim 3:16

"All scripture is inspired by God...

What scripture is this referring to?

thanks

Carl Emerson

Posted 1 year ago #
ChildofGod
Moderator

Thanks for the scripture, Carl.

2 Tim 3:14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it

15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. ESV

spruikah,

In verse 15 it is speaking about the OT. The New Testament had not yet been written. It even tells us that those sacred writings are able to lead to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

All scripture is breathed out by God

All of the Bible, cover to cover is for our instruction in righteousness and again, God breathed. Jesus is the Word of God come in the Flesh.

Jesus is foretold about in the OT. The OT was a shadow of what was to come with the NT.

Blessings,
Susan

Posted 1 year ago #
elisheva
Member

God's Word is even higher that His reputation! And Jesus is the Word! There is no contradiction in the Bible. Only man's misunderstanding causes confusion.

Posted 1 year ago #
thos
Member

Hi there,

I note that Sprukah is teaching the following... I quote

"I think we have been taught a tradition about how every word in the Bible is infallible and of equal value to every other part. It's scary to even question such a tradition because we hold it so dear. But the problem with that tradition is that it can blind us to the Word of God made flesh (John 1:1, John 1:14, Revelation 19:13)

Saying that every word is equal in authority doesn't make sense, and you have even agreed yourself. You say that Moses' teachings don't apply to us any more because we are under a "different dispensation" now. All Christians understand that we are under a NEW covenant, the NEW Testament.

Hebrews 8:13 (debonnaire's favorite book) says:
By calling this covenant new, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and ageing will soon disappear.

So, it is clearly saying the Old Testament is obsolete and will soon disappear.

Compare that to what Jesus said about His words:
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. (Luke 21:33)

So, we see that Jesus' words will never pass away, but the Old Testament will (and has). Therefore they are NOT equal in authority. If they were, we would still have to follow all the laws of Moses. It's that simple...."

me

I note that the ground rules include the following statement.

3. Avoid any teaching that contradicts Scripture, the validity of Scripture, and/or the Nature of God.
It is subject to immediate deletion without warning.

The question is IMHO we need to see this issue resolved quickly or the rule should be applied. Anyone has the choice to join a forum freely but the ground rules should be respected and adhered to.

It may be fruitful to allow some further dialogue on this issue, for example Sprukah makes no distinction between the Old Covenant and the Old Testament.

I hope that it is understood that this issue of the respect for the Scripture is a foundational focus of this forum.

Many Thanks,

Carl Emerson.

Posted 1 year ago #
spruikah
Member

Not sure how to respond to all the posts. People here are claiming they believe the Bible, and yet when I quoted the Bible saying that the New Testament is superior to the Old, they say that I am going against the Bible and my posts should be deleted. Can people please stop reacting to what I am saying and consider what the Scriptures actually teach?

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant new, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and ageing will soon disappear.

AND

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. (Luke 21:33)

Based on SCRIPTURE, I am saying that the New Testament is superior to the Old.

Carl (thos) writes: It may be fruitful to allow some further dialogue on this issue, for example Sprukah makes no distinction between the Old Covenant and the Old Testament.

thos, did you know that "covenant" and "testament" mean exactly the same thing? They are just synonyms. Why do I have to make a distinction between them?

Also, I have been accused of disrespecting Scripture. Let's look at what Scripture actually says:

2 Timothy 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Let me state clearly for the record that I believe that. I believe all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness.

I believe the writers of the Old Testament where inspired by God and that the Old Testament is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, correction, etc.

However, I don't believe that every word is equal in authority, because it is not. It's unfair to want to delete my posts on this basis, because it is also what you ALL believe. None of you here believe we are still under Moses' Law, do you? Of course not! So why condemn me for SAYING IT.

I will say it again, my great concern with saying that every word is equal in authority, is that you are making Moses, Solomon, Paul, Peter, etc. equal to Jesus. That is wrong. Jesus is NOT equal to them. Jesus is the Word made flesh. He is the ONLY begotten of the Father. He is the HIGHEST revelation of God EVER.

Here is another example from SCRIPTURE:

Matthew 12:42. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

See, Jesus is saying he is GREATER THAN SOLOMON. And it is in direct reference to his TEACHINGS (ie. the wisdom of Solomon vs. the wisdom of Jesus).

JESUS TRUMPS EVERYONE ELSE!

I seriously find it disturbing that on a Christian forum people are condemning me for saying that Jesus is of more authority than others.

At least John Sutton agrees that Jesus is perfect and the other people are not. Can we all accept that?

In practice this teaching of claiming that every Scripture is equal in authority (even though the people saying it don't believe it themselves) is a clever way of DEVALUING both what the SCRIPTURES actually say and what JESUS SAYS.

For example, I HAVE had people argue that it is okay for them to go to war and kill people because Moses said "an eye for an eye". When I point out that Jesus said, "turn the other cheek", they say that the whole Bible is the Word of God and so "an eye for an eye" is just as valid as what Jesus said, or even worse, they say that because Moses said "an eye for an eye", Jesus could never have changed that. And yet Jesus himself claims to change that.

What I wouldn't give for nominal Christians to actually believe in Jesus and to worship him above anyone else?!

If you want to delete my posts for exalting Jesus, then I really don't know what to think of this forum...

Posted 1 year ago #
ChildofGod
Moderator

This thread is being closed because it is against the Rules and Guidelines of the forum:

3. Avoid any teaching that contradicts Scripture, the validity of Scripture, and/or the Nature of God.
It is subject to immediate deletion without warning.

Posted 1 year ago #
John Sutton
Moderator

spruikah, not one single word of any of your posts have been deleted.

You are using "[" and "]" for your tags, where "<" and ">" should be used.

That's all.

Posted 1 year ago #

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