I'm a little disappointed to see people so dogmatic on this. Ken's traditional dispensational view does have some biblical support as in the scriptures he quoted. We post because we believe we have something to contribute or in my case to ask. Scriptures like "until the fullness of the gentiles come in" are hard to get around, if there is not a time when the ark door closes for the gentiles but not the Jews. I appreciate your direction Lynn and Ken, and fully intend to make up my own mind on this.
What seems to happen is there are whole prepackaged interpretations that shut out other interpretations, rather than a progressive revelation as we unpack the scriptures together coupled with a humility on the conclusions we have reached. I think the pre-trib, post-trib dichotomy on rapture is unhelpful as there seem to be degrees and stages of tribulation. Remember Daniel's vision was sealed up until the end and I believe we are still unpacking it now. Is it possible that some believers will be caught up as Elijah, Enoch, with other faithful followers catching the mantle like Elisha and persevering through?
To not prepare for tribulation in these days is foolishness, but we must not forget to look up in the knowledge that our redemption draws nigh. Where are we at in the trumpets right now? Please let's keep discussing this by shedding light on the scriptures and not villainising those who read them differently.
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Posted 1 year ago #
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decide said:
"I'm a little disappointed to see people so dogmatic on this."
--When it comes to clear biblical truth I would not want to be anything other than dogmatic.
The idea of the "pre-trib" rapture is not only a false teaching, it is false prophecy. Scripture does not support such a thing - even though its adherents can refer to many proof texts, the only way those texts support their claims is through reading their doctrine INTO those verses.As for Ken's "dispensational view", again there is absolutley no support from scripture to separate God's dealings with mankind into "dispensations". The term comes from the wrong application of the KJV referring to a "dispensation of grace". However, this reference is NOT specifying a period of time. It is refering to God "dispensing" or administering His grace. And God has dispensed His grace to mankind from the very beginning and will never stop doing so. Every act of mercy shown towards mankind has been an act of God dispensing His grace.
Holding to such false ideas of these seperate periods of time known as "dispensations" will keep people away from the truth of God's word.
The extremes of this error are shown in the idea that one day the Mosaic Law will be reinstated for the Jews. Few things are further fomr the truth than that. The Mosiac Law will NEVER be reinstated. ALL Jews can ONLY and WILL ONLY be saved through exactly the same means as anyone else - through faith in Jesus.
They find salvation in exactly the same way, through the same gospel that Gentile believers have been saved - and not through return to the Mosaic Law.Posted 1 year ago # -
Yeah that reinstatement of the Mosaic Law did not ring true to me. I understand there is such a thing as false teaching and false prophecy, but I want to know the truth, not listen to some blanket condemnation of another viewpoint.
One person's "proof text" is another person's "what does this mean?" text. And the hardness until the fullness of the gentiles have come in, I really want to know what that means. Objectively, it looks like the gentile harvest is complete before the salvation of national Israel, which happens to be the viewpoint Ken subscribes to. Agreeing with this one point doesn't necessarily make one a pre-trib person believing in false prophecy, surely? Maybe that "until" is not a clear chronological thing, but a gradual shift towards the end?
What I object to is not the "dogmatic" viewpoints as such, so maybe I expressed it wrong, but the oversimplification.
The thing that really rankles is the idea that there are only two or three ways of looking at this whole complex issue, and the implication that each view is either completely right or completely wrong. Unscriptural words like dispensation, pre trib and post trib, even rapture, come to define positions and I was referring to Ken's dismissal of the original post as much as anyone else's dismissal of Ken's views or more concerningly, Ken himself. Can we get past the labels, please?Posted 1 year ago # -
Hi "Onesimus", As you know I completely agree with your statement above, "ALL Jews can ONLY and WILL ONLY be saved through exactly the same means as anyone else - through faith in Jesus. They find salvation in exactly the same way, through the same gospel that Gentile believers have been saved - and not through return to the Mosaic Law".
But what I have found a little confusing and hard to understand over the years is what was brought up by "rstellico" in the post "WHO WILL CHRIST REIGN OVER 1000Year" where in Zech 14:16-21, which is clearly in the Millenial Kingdom (Christ's thousand year reign on earth while the devil is bound and sealed in the Abyss), that to "keep the Feast of Tabernacles or Booths" is specifically mentioned (verse 16, 18 & 19).
It is also mentioned that "the pots in the Lord's house shall by holy to the Lord like the bowls before the altar" (verse 20) and "every pot in all the houses of Jerusalem and in Judah shall be dedicated and holy to the Lord of hosts, and all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil their sacrifices in them [and traders in such wares will no longer be seen at the temple].. And in that day there shall be no more a Canaanite [that is, any godless or unclean person, whether Jew or Gentile] in the house of the Lord of hosts" (verse 21 AMP).
What do you make of these verses in light of what you posted above, "The extremes of this error are shown in the idea that one day the Mosaic Law will be reinstated for the Jews"?
Now again, I'm not saying that the Law will save anyone, far be it from me to be saying that, but it does appear from Scripture that at least parts of the Mosiac Law will be reinstated during the Millenium.
As I said, this has always confused me and I've just "parked" this issue in the past because the Lord hadn't given me any insight.
If you have some insight into this I'd be glad for you to share it with me.
Does this possibly fall into the "mysteries of God" category that you and I have discussed previously? I'm not sure...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Amen "decide", I'd posted this concern (about the "labels") previously on another thread also...
Paul calls this "labelling" carnal behaviour in 1 Cor 3:3-4 "I belong to Paul, I belong to Apollos", etc.
Why don't we just all say, "I belong to Jesus" and get on with the job which we've been given to do while we are here on earth - to know Him and make Him known to others?
Who cares whether we will lose everything doing that? Who cares whether we'll be martyred? Amen?
Paul says "All those who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim 3:12). Is that hard to understand?
The call to follow Christ is a call to death, complete death to the "old self" and to anything which attaches us to anything but Christ. Anything which attaches us to fear must go. Anything which attaches us to this world must go. Anything which attaches us to any other human being must go. We must "hate" our own lives and everyone else's compared to our sole love for God. What is hard to understand about this?
The soul that is saved is taught this by the Holy Spirit indwelling them. If a soul is not being taught this then either the Holy Spirit is not indwelling them or (and I say this in jest) the Holy Spirit is not doing His job properly.
"When He the Spirit of Truth comes He will guide you into all truth"... Praise the Lord... Let's be open to hearing what the Lord has to say through our brothers and sisters... :-)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Decide said:
“I want to know the truth, not listen to some blanket condemnation of another viewpoint.”Anyone desiring to know the truth needs to go to scripture for themselves and not rely on others to convince them.
I was a believer in the pre-trib rapture for several years because it was what I was taught. The change in my belief came when I took the time to study the matter in scripture for myself. By doing that I found that there was no question at all that the pre-trib rapture and its associated dispensationalist doctrines are totally false.There is one thing that has been made clearer to me than anything else over the past two or three years – that Christians are far too influenced by the traditions and doctrines they have been taught. And most have absolutely no desire or intention to question those traditions. They will go to extremes to make find the tiniest hint of support for their tradition even when there are many very clear biblical proofs that their tradition is wrong.
The only remedy for this situation is for believers to put aside their favoured traditions and teachers, and to take responsibility and search the scriptures for themselvesYes scripture indicates that the “gentile harvest” is complete before the salvation of national Israel. But Ken goes further than that. He takes the church out of the way and returns Israel to the Mosaic Covenant – and according to him they are saved through that covenant. That belief is false.
I’m not certain about the exact timing of Israel’s salvation but it could occur when Jesus returns and they see their Messiah and recognise Him for who He is.
(They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. Zech 12:10)
There is so much about this very end period around the return of the Lord that has been clouded by tradition and popular fiction and I have only recently begun to get a glimpse of what is revealed in scripture.Andrew,
As I said to “decide”, I am only just starting to glimpse of what scripture reveals about the time of the Lord’s return and His reign from Jerusalem.
Regarding the appearance of the Law being returned in the millennium, I think we need to recognise that the OT prophets were speaking to an audience who at taht time only knew the Mosaic Law. There are perhaps symbols of purity and being separate from the world that are contained in the Mosaic Law that will find practical fulfilment under Jesus rule. [After all one of the main applications arising from the Law was to keep Israel different and separate from the nations around them, and even their limited application of the law to this day has helped to keep them distinct and separate from other peoples].As for the reference to the feast of Tabernacles, I suspect this will not so much be a return to the Jewish feasts, but will be a celebration of Jesus’ return. I have seen from more than one source that the Jews expect their Messiah’s arrival to coincide with tabernacles. There is also some evidence that Jesus’ birth actually occurred around that time – and John wrote of the word becoming flesh and “tabernacling among us” at the beginning of His gospel.
In scripture there is some evidence of the link with Tabernacles and the revelation of the Messiah. This is the relevance of this incident reported by John:
John 7:2- 6 …when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
Therefore Jesus told them, "The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right.Tabernacles is the one major feast of the Jewish calendar that has not yet had a clear fulfilment in the life of Jesus – so there is a perhaps a very strong likelihood that it will be associated with His return.
If that is the case, would there be a better reason for the nations to celebrate the Feast of tabernacles?Sorry that all of that is a very rushed response, but there is so much richness in this topic it's not easy to bring it all together in a short time.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Onesimus, thanks for your post and continued interest. I'm looking forward to celebrating Tabernacles in the millemnnium period, camping out with the family at Jerusalem with all of the faithful around the world. The survivors from the nations of the massive planetary upheaval before Christ's return will be few and will "pass under the rod" and only the righteous will be allowed to live, but there will be some survivors. Then others will be born during that 1000 years and - despite the devil's absence, will still have the choice not to obey the Lord. Isaiah 66, And it shall come to pass that from one Sabbath to another and from one New Moon to another, all flesh shall come before Me to worship Me. There are "the gentiles who honour My sabbaths" in Isaiah 55 or somewhere like it, too. The sabbath is part of creation and predates the Law. In the millennium it will survive as the day of rest and worship and the nations will have renounced the pagan Roman sun-worshipping Sunday. The Levitical priesthood was established as an everlasting priesthood, so ministering before the Lord at Jerusalem, with sacrifice and offering, looks to be likely to continue. This does not negate the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus, but honours it, in the same way that Paul "completed in my body the sufferings of Christ".
Posted 1 year ago # -
Decide said We post because we believe we have something to contribute or in my case to ask. Scriptures like "until the fullness of the gentiles come in" are hard to get around.
There is no time for the Gentiles mentioned in prophesy, but the word translated as "Gentiles" actually means "a race or tribe".
God sent Ancient Israel into exile and slavery during 721-718BC by the Assyrians for 390 years according to Ezekiel ch4, and there is no Biblical or historical record of them ever returning.
Even todays Jews know this and during the Pogroms in Eastern Europe over the last 2-300 years, many Jews believed that these Ten Lost tribes of Israel, who they believed would be extremely rich and powerful, would come to their aid and rescue them from their pogroms and persecution.
So what happened to them? In Leviticus ch 26, God says "If when I punish you, and you don't repent, I will multiply your punishment by seven. 390 years times 7 = 2730 years.
721-718BC plus 2730 years = 2009-2012, right about now.
This verse translated as "times/fullness of the Gentiles", very likely means "until the time of the (ten) tribes 2730 year exile is finished".
Posted 1 year ago # -
Free Willie. Thanks.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I am in complete agreement with Bondslave. How rare is this truth about tribulation in this modern age of comfort and ease. He and the one quoted are correct about the great tribulation and the presence of overcoming Christians on this earth. It is refreshing to see this truth preached and taught by others, as it is exactly as I have been taught by Pastor Steve Brown since right after I became a believer.
Posted 5 months ago # -
I also believe we will live through tribulation. apparently the original word the translations of tribulation were taken from refer to its impact on believers.
We need to see the truth so we can be prepared, it is a time we will need to be able to hear the voice of the Lord. And this may be compromised if there has been a strong belief of rescue only to find it was incorrect.
It is not a nice prospect, and in all honesty I fear that faced with a horrible death that I would fail Jesus, I trust however that God would be there to assist me, after all the thousands who have to face this even today, do not fail, and they too are just ordinary people. It is God that is extraordinary.
One thing I have noticed particularly over the last year, is that he seems to be taking many church held beliefs and exposing faults within them, revealing the truth, and building confidence.
God Bless
HopePosted 5 months ago #