The world says, "Love your friends. Be good to your friends. Be loyal to your friends. Look out for your friends."
This is easy and there is no glory in this.
What did Jesus say?
The world says, "Love your friends. Be good to your friends. Be loyal to your friends. Look out for your friends."
This is easy and there is no glory in this.
What did Jesus say?
Love your enemies (Matthew 5:44)
He also said:
Love your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Then to love your neighbor as yourself (Mark 12:28-31)
Varienne, I think you might be responding to the comments I and others made on the thread about Rick Joyner and others. Is this right? (Just need to find out if you are hoping for a response here from some of us because of things we wrote.)
I have been grieved tonight from what I have read, you're right. I felt the answer would be to help point the way back to the cross for anyone reading. I don't mean to cause offense in any way.
Thank you. I know you are writing what you feel is important to make clear, so there's no offense taken.
I don't know that I can explain so that you can see that I bear no lack of love for the leaders. I'm afraid that it will be a matter of going around a circle to come to mutual understanding, but we'll try.
I don't see anything inconsistent with love in wanting their ministries to be exposed as the deceptions they are, and praying particularly for the ones they deceive. As I said, I do occasionally pray for those leaders, but that isn't something I've had a real burden to pursue, so I don't. I do hope that all of them might be saved, and have prayed this.
I pray for many people and situations, and pray in tongues so that God can pray whatever is His desire to pray through me. I don't think it's a problem that I don't have a particular burden to keep Rick Joyner, the leaders of the Prophetic Movement, and so on in regular prayer.
What I've written is trying to answer what you might have seen as unloving in my comments. You may have actually seen something else that you are concerned about, so please share it.
Varienne - when I saw this I broke down and cryed - you have a dear heart and I love that.
Where is the turning point here - concerning one who is in blantant rebellion against the Lord Jesus Christ.
How do we discern when one has stepped over the line and has enraged the Holy Spirit within them - how far can one go before they are in aposasty?
I say this because RJ is permoting a man that will cause many to fall away and follow after demonic spirits.
Saddy he is caught up in this and is in direct rebellion against God - and this has not gone on without warning.
He is enableing a man to continue on in his demonic spirits that opens a door to the demonic to all who follow after this man - especially if he lays hands on them even little children - this man is Todd Bentely who claimed to be healing people at his so called Lakeland Revival - and even claimed to raise one from the dead which none seemed to be confirmed.
During this time he was having an affair with his mistress and yet was claiming to be working in the Power of the Holy Spirit - this is blasphemy - and several world renoun spiritual self proclaimed apostles came to prophecy over Todd Bently - Two being C.Peter Wagner and Rick Joyner who appointed Todd Bentley as an apostle never able to discern Bentelys deception with his alchol and adultry.
Why do I bring this up? - because Bently hurridly divorced his wife and turned around and married his mistress - and Rick Joyner is involved in Bentleys rising back into ministry - Both Bently and Joyner teach guided visualization and astrol travel to heaven and back.Both have their own personal angels they claim.
I understand Bently has had a rather busy schedule - and it is rather heartbreacking to me to think of the saints of God who are getting caught up into his ministry and the open doors to the demonic they are getting caught up in.
I taped part of Lakewood and it litterly made me sick - women acting like they were being raped and screeming and a few slithering on the floor like a snake.
How far can one go before they are in full bloom aposasty? How long can they continue to treat the blood of Jesus Christ as if it is common and not holy?
I will leave you with Jude to read I think it will perhaps help some.
May the Holy Spirit comfort you - it is such a fine line - and it is going to be heart wrentching to watch the falling away as it continues to increase. Some we may rescue - many we won't.Praise the Lord he has promised to wipe away every tear.
Love you, lynn
Jude 1 - NLT
Greetings from Jude
1 This letter is from Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ and a brother of James.
I am writing to all who have been called by God the Father, who loves you and keeps you safe in the care of Jesus Christ.[a]
2 May God give you more and more mercy, peace, and love.
The Danger of False Teachers
3 Dear friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to his holy people. 4 I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 So I want to remind you, though you already know these things, that Jesus[b] first rescued the nation of Israel from Egypt, but later he destroyed those who did not remain faithful. 6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment. 7 And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment.
8 In the same way, these people—who claim authority from their dreams—live immoral lives, defy authority, and scoff at supernatural beings.[c] 9 But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels,[d] did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, “The Lord rebuke you!” (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses’ body.) 10 But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction. 11 What sorrow awaits them! For they follow in the footsteps of Cain, who killed his brother. Like Balaam, they deceive people for money. And like Korah, they perish in their rebellion.
12 When these people eat with you in your fellowship meals commemorating the Lord’s love, they are like dangerous reefs that can shipwreck you.[e] They are like shameless shepherds who care only for themselves. They are like clouds blowing over the land without giving any rain. They are like trees in autumn that are doubly dead, for they bear no fruit and have been pulled up by the roots. 13 They are like wild waves of the sea, churning up the foam of their shameful deeds. They are like wandering stars, doomed forever to blackest darkness.
14 Enoch, who lived in the seventh generation after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, “Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of his holy ones 15 to execute judgment on the people of the world. He will convict every person of all the ungodly things they have done and for all the insults that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”[f]
16 These people are grumblers and complainers, living only to satisfy their desires. They brag loudly about themselves, and they flatter others to get what they want.
A Call to Remain Faithful
17 But you, my dear friends, must remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ said. 18 They told you that in the last times there would be scoffers whose purpose in life is to satisfy their ungodly desires. 19 These people are the ones who are creating divisions among you. They follow their natural instincts because they do not have God’s Spirit in them.
20 But you, dear friends, must build each other up in your most holy faith, pray in the power of the Holy Spirit,[g] 21 and await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will bring you eternal life. In this way, you will keep yourselves safe in God’s love.
22 And you must show mercy to[h] those whose faith is wavering. 23 Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others,[i] but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives.[j]
A Prayer of Praise
24 Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault. 25 All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond
Varienne God bless and bless your heart for Him! Lynn it is so refreshing to hear your voice telling it the way it is, sad but true.
Varienne, Im sorry if anything I said upset you in regards to Rick Joyner. What I shared was in no way intended to show hatred for this man. I met him and his family, I even carried groceries with his wife and son to their house.
I spoke with his daughter and knew her boyfriend. During this time that I was at his school his family lived above the hotel (which functioned as the school), which is the old property of PTL ministries. They actually lived where the Bakers used to live (The Joyners have since moved from there).
I knew them on a basic level and I loved them. I saw Rick at the entrance as he talked with students. I saw his young boy skateboard with his friends in the parking lot. I saw his daughter sit with her boyfriend as he was practicing the banjo. I didn't leave MSM out of hatred or bitterness, but because my heart was greatly grieved over all the sin that was allowed there. I actually struggled with firmly making the desicion to leave as I met alot of people there who loved God and I didn't want to leave them.
I remember walking outside one day, and as I stood under a tree, I just remember the Lord asking me, "Who will you choose to love more? Me or them?" I knew that I had to leave because if I stayed I would have to accept the error and false teaching and it would cripple my walk with God. I chose God and I left. It wasn't a matter of seeing error and storming out in anger, it was giving up a community of young believers who seemed to love the Lord just as much as I did.
But I could not stay without offending God and walk away from him. I believe the others were deceived, but I knew the truth. If I willingly stayed I would be in complete rebellion.
The reason for my original post in the other thread was not to bash Rick Joyner, but to emphasize that there are many evil spirits that operate around the entire ministry. I pray Rick will come to repentance but I also realize a very great need to pray against the deception and evil spirits that keep so many of them deceived and even the open rebellion some of them have embraced.
God bless you for your heart Varienne. I am sorry to have grieved youas this was never my intention. I should have clarified myself better in regards to my writing.
God Keep You!
God bless you harvestisripe, Jeremy, Gramma and Jonathan.
Psalm 119:136 is the only way to adequately describe how I feel about Rick: 'Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.'
Surely there is still hope? Surely it's not too late? I know he's guilty, and that he's been used to endorse the devil's works, but I have taken hope that the NAR has reached/or is about to reach it's pinnacle, and the only way is down... That the sheep will need a real answer, and won't feed the idolatry in him. I have prayed for him to lose it all, to find the place in the Lord he had, and (even for a minute) to walk out on this earth the place of humility that was revealed to him.
I believe the reason I've a burden for a few leaders is because the Lord Jesus loves them so much :,( and if they are saved, they will help save so many who were vulnerable to being led astray, if not by them, by someone else.
Your hearts even to be willing to find a place of love for him, is enough. I was grieved yesterday that the opposite was happening - that people were agreeing on giving up on him, agreeing that there is no hope for him, agreeing that he doesn't deserve to be loved.
But you see, if I give up on him, I might as well give up on my daughter, and Lisa might as well give up on her son, and Carl on his daughter, and Andrew on his step-daughter... Surely we all have loved ones who have gone astray, and surely God's arm is not shortened that it cannot save...
The Lord has shown me that from the height that we fall, will equal the depths of repentance; that those who have been forgiven much, love much. And after Jonah traded with the world and got delivered, he preached a message that was anointed to cause a whole wicked city to repent and turn from their wicked ways.
I'm not saying this about any other member of the NAR - just Rick. Can we agree that there could be hope for him? Or, as Christ prayed on the cross "Father forgive him, because he doesn't know what he's doing."? That would be enough.
I love you all so much, and can't wait to meet you one day when there will be no more goodbyes and our Father will wipe away all the tears from our eyes. Thank you harvestisripe x
I agree with you for Rick Varienne he has been on my heart too and I have a love for him which I believe must be from the Lord...
I don't have any other name from the "big name" ministries which I feel this way about but I know that there are others - who I don't know the names of - cos I sensed this last year when the Lord put it on my heart but Rick's name was the only one the Lord gave me specifically...
I agree completely that we can't give up on anyone - I am not giving up on Alaina because the Lord has told me that she will worship Him - I have seen her worshipping Him in the spirit (the spiritual realm) and it was mighty - great glory was going to the Lord...
Rick is the same when he returns to the Lord it will be mighty - I know this...
I believe he will suffer great loss and it will be very painful for him but I believe that he will be fully restored...
Just like King Nebuchadnezzar I believe he will utter the good confession about the Lord being able to humble those who walk in pride...
The Lord has been able to humble me - He still is and He will continue to do so - and I know that He can humble anyone and it is His love to do so - He loves us so much that He doesn't leave us in our sin but disciplines us to remove us from our sin...
Praise His Wonderful Name...
Thank You Jesus...
Love in the Lord,
Yes, thank You dear Saviour :,)
Thank You Father for loving us while we were your enemies and wore pride like a cloak, speaking great swollen words of vanity, believing we were right, getting in the way of Your Will, and persecuting your people like Paul did - Thank You for not giving up on us. Thank You for not giving up on Rick. You said nothing is impossible with You, and that Love never fails. I pray that as we agree to choose love and to choose to bless Rick, that we are choosing Your Will, and choosing You in Rick's life. Please have Your way with him. You are our good Father and love us so much that You discipline us. Please bring him to repentance, and let us not suffer any regret concerning him when we get to heaven. Please help us to be faithful to the ones you have called us to. For Jesus' sake, Amen.
Varienne, I believe it may be because you have a burden for Rick Joyner that you felt what we said was unloving. I don't believe any of us spoke of no hope for him or the others, just that our burden was not with the leaders. And I know that I didn't have any lack of love for them, just a knowledge that they are doing much harm to the church.
It is a matter of looking at the same situation from two different sides. Some of us look at it and can almost only see the masses being drawn in and our burden is for them. Others look at the same situation and see the deceived leaders who may have once had genuine ministries and your burden is for them. Because one's burden is not for the sheep as much, doesn't mean there's no love for them, just as if one's burden isn't for the leaders as much.
Jonathan had a very particular and personal understanding of the strong deception in Morningstar Ministries. He spoke from all he knows about this in the other thread, but he didn't express lack of love or loss of hope, just his understanding that there is strong deception.
I've had many encounters in churches and with people and have had all sorts of teaching from God (dreams, scriptures, etc.) that have influenced me toward anger toward the leaders who are leading the sheep into deception and cultish following of them. I can't say that I don't feel that toward them, though I love them in the ways that if they were destitute, I'd bring them in, and clothe them and all. But I believe that God loves them but is angry, too. Lynn gave scriptures that show that God sees them doing great harm.
It is good to continue praying for what is your God-given burden for the leaders. But, having a tremendous burden for the innocent lambs who have been let down and actually destroyed by such leaders (my own children, friends, unknown people, likely your own daughter?), I'll pray mostly that the bad ministries would repent or fail and these ministers either repent or be exposed.
I just want you to understand this because my posts will likely continue to reflect this side of things, and I hope that you won't feel offended, but will understand.
What does GOD'S word says about how we should respond to false prophets??
zealot, maybe you have some particular scriptures in mind that you would post?
2 Peter 2 is very appropriate and so is Jude that was quoted by Lynne already. (read 2Peter 2 very carefully and intently)
What I definitely can see is extreme caution and to turn away from such.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
TAKE HEED!! BEWARE!!
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
LET THEM ALONE!!
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
IT is ONLY by HIS mercy if we have not fallen into deception. Nothing else!
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove(tell a fault, rebuke) them.
GOD bless you all.
PS; I do not say it is the case with Rick Joyner, but if God has sent someone strong delusion, should we pray for them, against GOD'S sent delusion?
And if JESUS clearly warned us against such and even told us to turn away from such, why did HE not tell us(anywhere) to pray for these false prophets?
zealot, those are sobering. They show God's heart toward the false teachers and leaders. It's likely that some of them are reprobate and forever lost.
Hope remains, though, because we don't know people's hearts unless God shows them to us.
From Jude, there are the verses:
1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
These that may be saved may include the leaders who may not yet be beyond repentance. The verses before this give very good advice: if we seek God, follow His teachings, depend on His mercy, keep in His love, and pray in the Holy Spirit, the Lord can lead us to pray for leaders who aren't beyond hope.
I am not accusing anyone of anything. Like I said, the thing that grieved me (and forever will) is when it seems that people agree on someone without any hope, or an answer.
My gospel has been consistent - that there is an answer through the cross. There is a way of love. There is hope.
My youngest daughter is named Hope. I have been on my own ever since I was 2 weeks pregnant with her. On her first night home after she was born, I woke up in the middle of the night and she was still. I couldn't hear her breathing either, and immediately my heart cried out to God, "Why? You said to call her Hope! What is the point in carrying on if there is no Hope?" He interjected, "You shall not bury Hope. Hope never dies. Hope is there to find every day - search for it." I felt her breathing. I'm glad to know that she will not die \o/
I too have a heart for the wounded sheep, and can tell you of many confrontations I've had with leaders, fighting for the sheep. It has been costly, as my own family have rejected me for challenging the idolatry in my step uncle who used to have the biggest church in London once upon a time. It folded because of the extravagant lifestyle lived by them, and the churches finances were in a mess... Many sheep were wounded because of that, and no accountability was taken by my uncle, just the attitude that the sheep should move on. My aunt said her husband was in a 'high profile' position at the time, and didn't have time to jump to anyone's whims(!) My challenge was that God had called him to be a shepherd to these sheep... to lay his life down for them, not the other way round. I said he was to drop the tv 'ministry' he was trying to build and to seek the sheep out and repent to them. That they needed healing, and would be healed in an instant if he cared enought to do that. And that his tv 'ministry' would go nowhere if he continued to put himself first. I also challenged my family by saying that they were in idolatry to him, and were getting in the way.
Like you Jeremy, I first started off angry, prayed it through until I got a word of hope and couldn't wait to discharge it, believing he would receive it. The love poured out for him... But as you can see, because the Word was rejected, the idolatry in him got slammed, and he has got nowhere. But that does not give me joy :,( I long for reconciliation with him, and my whole family. That was 12 years ago. I won't give up on them.
My mother died in following the WOF teaching. But there are a few of those leaders I have forgiven and love so much I can't bear to think of them not making it. I won't give up on them.
Maybe we should just agree to disagree.