1. Bruce Skelton
   Member

   Hi hopefulone
   Quote.
   “Seems to make a pretty convincing argument that Peter was converted,”
   Here are some verses which tell us that Christ’s disciples weren’t saved till later on.

   Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

   Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

   Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven

   Do you think the disciples were converted at this point in time, or do you believe what Jesus said?

   Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

   Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

   Do you think Peter was converted at this point?

   Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

   Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

   It is obvious by this verse, that they hadn’t received the Holy Spirit yet, and there are others verses that go along with this. The verse is not saying that anyone believed on him.

   Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

   This verse is quite clear, that to be born again, you must have the Spirit of Christ.

   Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

   Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

   To be a true believer you must be born again of the Spirit of God.

   Joh 7:2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.

   Joh 7:3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

   Joh 7:4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

   Joh 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

   Even his brethren weren’t believers.

   Joh 7:6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

   Joh 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

   But as many as receive him to them gives he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. The only trouble is, who of them truly believed? I have only shown you a few, but there are many more verses. All his disciples deserted him and didn’t really confess him before men at his trial.

   In Christ,
   Bruce.

   Posted 5 months ago #

2. GWYPL
   Inactive

   Perhaps my question got "lost" in too large of a comment. I will repeat my question.

   Mr/Ms hopefulone....Are you telling us that there are 2 PENTECOSTAL INFILLINGS of the Holy Spirit in the disciples? (Were the disciples Baptized in the Spirit twice?)

   Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

   Act 2:4 KJV - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

   Posted 5 months ago #

3. Bruce Skelton
   Member

   Hi
   Here is my up dated version you might like to look at.

   Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

   Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

   Paul is saying that you can’t keep taking a person back unto repentance again; repentance from dead works or if they fall away back into their old sinful life,(after coming to a knowledge of the truth). Only our past sins are removed, from before we were believers. Sins we commit after we know the truth will go against our rewards. Even though we are saved we will still be Judged according to our works.
   Only Roman Catholics need to be refilled by the mass, where they have Christ perpetually sacrificed on the cross, (this is Blasphemy). Christ has paid the price once and for all sins. You can’t keep going back to the cross.

   2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
   The commandment to believe can be delivered unto anyone but they must accept it to be saved. I know of people who hear the Gospel every week, and still don’t truly believe. There are some people who say they believe, but refuse to believe certain parts of scripture.

   1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

   Knowledge and belief. One can come to the knowledge, but never become a believer.
   In Christ,
   Bruce.

   Posted 5 months ago #

4. dagazz
   Member

   Interesting points Bruce, I will have good look through them when I have a bit of time. I have found looking at the terms used and where they are used quite helpful in confirming the truth. My initial question regarding Heb 6:6 is the term used .."fall away." It makes no sense to me for the writer of Hebrews to use this term for falling into sin or temptation, the term fall away is for apostates not for those who struggle with sins.

   As for Romans I could be wrong but I see the blood covers sin, and also has an ongoing cleansing effect in the life of the believer, and is their defense and testimony when facing accusation. Do you have any other verses to support the belief that the blood was only shed for sins prior to salvation, it is not a belief I am familiar with to be honest.
   Thanks again for your perspective, I have actually found all this really rewarding, blessings Gary.

   Posted 5 months ago #

5. 4Jesus
   Member

   GWYPL I will answer your question, even though you didn't ask me.

   No there is not two baptisms infillings of the spirit at all.

   But one can receive the Spirit when they do repent within them to begin with, yet not yet be filled. Just the same as the disciples did there, yet they still had to be filled yet as well. And so do we. People have been taught that error in this area too.

   I supposed one way to look at the difference in the natural realm, is to consider if you get a half a glass of water, within that glass you definitely have water, right? But then if you go and fill it up so that it begins to flow over, then you have a lot more water then that you had before.

   Anyway, that is the way I believe the Lord revealed to me the difference was there.

   meaning they are not filled or immersed in the Spirit when Jesus did this obviously. At least according to scripture they were not anyway. Otherwise He would not have sent them to Jerusalem to wait for this baptism, would he? Yet he did in Acts chapter 1, just before He ascended.

   Love,
   Sandy

   Posted 5 months ago #

6. GWYPL
   Inactive

   Thanks Sandy

   Then the disciples were born again in John and Baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts.

   Posted 5 months ago #

7. thos
   Member

   GWYPL,

   That is the way I read it.

   We are in-filled at rebirth and 'empowered upon' at the Baptism of the Spirit.

   Same with Jesus, in-filled at conception and 'empowered upon' at Baptism.

   This was the sign John the Baptist was given to correctly identify Him.

   He was the first person that John saw the Spirit come upon and remain upon.

   Blessings,

   Carl Emerson.

   Posted 5 months ago #

8. 4Jesus
   Member

   the disciples began to be born again when Jesus breathed on them, just the same as Adam began to have a right to the Tree of LIfe as long as He did begin to eat in the Garden. that breathe was what brought them to begin to being made in the image of God. Today we are not born in that image as some think we are apparently. My saying that because of what it says about image written in Rm. 8:29.

   I disagree one is born again when we repent. Because to me being born again means we have had both our spirits and hearts (souls) changed to be one in Christ. Meaning IMO there are three things that must be obeyed by us in faith, believing for Christ to do what He has promised to do at all three, in order to be born again, thus being a child of the promise. And then and only then are we able to begin to enter that kingdom of God Jesus tells us about in John chapter 3. But true, that was the beginning of this rebirth happening of course.

   If that is what you are asking there of course. Meaning this birth really does consist of a process. Even though it can happen in a day or several years for some. It is still a process. One that God has to be involved in from beginning to end, just as He has to be involved in our lives from then on as well, once we do continue on into HIS righteousness. Because we still have none of our own righteousness even then without HIM bringing HIS righteousness forth as most of you know?

   And once we are born again, then is when we can see what that kingdom of God is, or consists of, Jesus is speaking of in John 3:3, it clearly saying so there. And then begin to enter in from there on.

   Meaning most of us have been lied to totally about being born again. How did this happen? Because of the devil knowing that if we do not begin right totally, neither will we be able to end right either. Make sense? And so knowing this, he went to work immediately to make sure that many were not on that rock finally in order for him to be able to have dominion over them still, hoping to cause us to fall down, and one day just give up and stay in the ditch, he winning that soul ultimately. As God and the devil is in a war over the souls of men. And has been from the beginning to the end. Why I don't know for sure. But I have considered that maybe when Lucifer was cast down from his abode in heaven that earth was the area in the universe he did end up in. Which is why he was here in the beginning to tempt Adam. God making man in the beginning to take it back somehow, with His help of course. As again man can do nothing by himself at all. But Adam ended up falling away of course, giving the devil essentially back to him what God had given him in the first place. Mind you, this idea is just me and my story only. Meaning as far as I know, it is not scriptural, and therefore just my wild imagination, which of course, could be true or then again not true. My saying that because I am one that depends solely on scripture entirely as much as I possibly can. And that story isn't scriptural as far as I know. But nothing wrong with having an imagination as long as you do not make that what you imagine a doctrine. And I do not. And please be so kind as to not accuse me of doing so either. :-)

   Nor am I saying that man is going to be the one to restore the earth either. But we do have a part in all of this, as a helpmeet of Christs none the less.

   IMO what the devil does always, is whenever God begins to do something, he comes in with his lies, in order to get man out of order with God, bringing us back hopefully into bondage to sin. By often encouraging us to see ourselves as more than we should in the first place. Meaning to convince us we have power, when no we do not, god is the one that has true power. In other words, get us to walk in pride, seeing ourselves for more than we ought to. thus ending up being a child of the one that God tells Job about in Job chapter 40 and 41 I believe it is. And of course, that devil is going to do what he can to convince us of this too. Which is of course, witchcraft. Even though the poor soul that ends up believing they are that great, are being deceived.

   But as I see it today, born again is a process. The one scripture that tells us this IMO is written in 1 Tim. 2:15. Meaning that is not talking about natural birth at all.

   Love,
   Sandy

   Posted 5 months ago #

9. 4Jesus
   Member

   Carl as I see it, Jesus was always empowered. what he was doing there was leading us into the way that we are to go so that He could empower us to resist sinfulness, as well as going to tell others the same thing, by following HIM in the way that He Himself led us to follow.

   The phrase follow is just as important as the phrase faith is for us. The first thing he did with others, was to tell them to come and follow after Me and I will make you fishers of men if you do so. And some did, and some didn't of course. John was only there to aid in leading the way for HIM to lead the way for us to follow HIM. What Jesus received from Father, was simply praise for His obedience to lead the way for us. And what John saw was God establishing this to Him as well as to us. Because of knowing who He was when He did come to him. Understanding he was God come in the flesh. Which is why he said I have need to be baptized by you, instead of baptizing you in Matthew chapter 3. And Jesus told him no, you are here to baptize me instead for the purpose of leading all of us in the way that we are to go also, in order that righteousness then could also begin in our lives. And that is what he did, and what happened there. Because we are to follow HIM. In fact, making the meaning of repentance fairly short, that is the decision one is making when we do repent. Is to follow HIM from that day forth, where HE leads us isn't it? I had a A of G preacher tell me that years ago, my witnessing totally to what he did say. Repentance also means to make an about face I believe. meaning as a man born in sin, when we repent, means our hearts desire is to then turn away from that sinfulness entirely, doing an about face so to speak. In other words, making the decision to walk away from the world and follow Christ from then on. then baptism is water is for our deliverance so we can begin to walk in HIS righteousness. And of course the baptism in the spirit is so that we will then be empowered by HIM to walk in that righteousness, as well as being sent out then to tell others the way to walk the same way from that day forth. And until this happens. Are those that are not born again sent to preach the gospel yet? I say not entirely. Even though there are things that one can be sent out to do even before apparently. But anointed and sent out by Christ to go into all the world yet, no.

   Love,
   Sandy

   PS. I have somewhat gotten off in this thread here, but since I started it, I guess I can do so, allowing others to do so too. :-)

   Posted 5 months ago #

10. dagazz
    Member

    Hi everyone, but especially Sandy
    I went through the 1 Tim 2 19 21 section and these were the best commentary explanations.
    I still feel overall context is vital, not just picking out 1 verse…

    Timothy has been discouraged by division and false teachers,
    Paul is reminding him of the need for trustworthy foundations and of God's faithfulness to those who continue pressing towards perfection.
    The vessels of dishonor in the great house [ church] are part of an assembly of both pure, refined and clean vessels and also unworthy, base and unclean. [as with the wheat and the tares].
    These commentaries make this clear… but what it is saying is we need to be pure vessels [not like the false teachers] to be able to serve the gospel and glorify God. i.e You don't use your finest gold plate as a bedpan! Or a bedpan to pour out the pure truth of God's word to the thirsty.
    commentary to follow, blessings Gary

    Posted 5 months ago #

11. dagazz
    Member

    second post, the commentary of the above statement.
    NIV Bible Commentary has an interesting analysis writing...
    Having drawn at some length the contrast between true and false teachers (vv. 14-19), Paul now points up a second contrast--that between noble and ignoble vessels. Both will be found in the church. In a large house where a wealthy man lives, there are not only articles of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Those that are gold certainly receive honor by the owner. Some less eminent articles are of silver. But others are of wood (e.g., wooden bowls for holding flour) or clay (e.g., pottery). The latter two have a more mundane use. 

    We find the same two expressions in Ro 9:21 (note). In the verses that follow there we find that the former vessels are "objects of [God's] mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory" (Ro 9:23-note), whereas the latter are "objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction" (Ro 9:22-note). On the basis of this, as well as the context here in 2 Timothy, some scholars feel that the articles for ignoble purposes are the false teachers in the church (2Ti 2:16, 17, 18 - see notes v16, 17, 18), who are destined for eternal destruction. In that case, "if a man cleanses himself from the latter" (v.21) means that Timothy must expel from the church the ignoble members.

    Ironside feels that this refers to two classes of Christians writing that...
    Christians are like those vessels. There is a sad mixed condition in Christendom today, saved and unsaved, often united in the same church-fellowship. There are those who profess to know the Lord, and those who have never confessed Him; and people wonder why there is so little power and blessing. If you want to please the Lord who has made you His own, you must separate yourself from all that is unclean. Then you will be "a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the Master's use, and prepared unto every good work."

    Posted 5 months ago #

12. Pastor David Hall
    Member

    It is so obvious from scripture that just because we claim to be saved and a follower of the Lord Yeshua, does not mean that we cannot fall. This is exactly what Paul wrote to the Gentiles at Rome who had become believers;

    Romans 11:11 onwards,

    11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

    13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

    16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

    23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

    These ones accepted Yeshua as Lord and were grafted into the Jewish rootstock and thus became Born Again believers, but they were warned they could be cut off for being haughty and lose the Grace of God...they do this themselves by disobedience and throwing God Grace back at him.

    We only stay in an UNCONDEMNED state as long as we remain in Christ.

    Stay firm a keep running the race that leads to life

    Blessings

    David

    Posted 5 months ago #

13. GWYPL
    Inactive

    "Losing salvation", like it was a pocketwatch, is a very easy EXCUSE to avoid the DEEP purifying process of SANCTIFICATION required by the Holy Spirit and entrance into New Jerusalem.

    No one wants to teach it; No one wants to believe it; No one wants to do it.

    It is EASIER to say "I lost my salvation", "He backslid", "He fell from Grace".

    So much easier to walk that aisle to the buildings "altar" and make another statement of faith.

    So much easier then giving up EVERYTHING and ALL CONTROL of your life.

    Posted 5 months ago #

14. dagazz
    Member

    Thanks David, GWYPL, Yes, the weight of scripture and history of Israel would suggest this is the case. Salvation, ongoing growth, sanctification and holiness all tie together in this, not just a decision.

    Posted 5 months ago #

15. Bruce Skelton
    Member

    Hi dagazz
    Quote.
    "Do you have any other verses to support the belief that the blood was only shed for sins prior to salvation, it is not a belief I am familiar with to be honest."

    I hope this may help you and anyone else. We must study the whole counsel of God.

    Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Past sins are removed at this point.

    Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    The slate has been wiped clean at this point, and we are to do good works from there on, built on the foundation stone Christ.

    Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

    This doctrine is compared to gold, silver, and precious stones: of which material Isaiah also and John in the Revelation build the heavenly city. And to these are the opposites, wood, hay, stubble, that is to say, curious and vain questions or decrees: and to be short, all the type of teaching which serves to vain show. And all works of sinful type.

    2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

    1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

    1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    You will notice that all types of works that are done after one is saved are judged. All previous works before one is saved are removed.
    In Christ,
    Bruce.
    PS Once a person is born into a family, he is part of that family. He can use up all of his rewards, but he is still part of the family, he may be classed as the weaker brother. ( Refer prodigal son parable.)

    Posted 5 months ago #

16. dagazz
    Member

    Thanks Bruce,
    Yes I see what you are meaning now. It is as if the blood is applied to consecrate the vessel for holy use, and then later cleansing in this sense is by the water of the word. I will keep looking into this, and about the work of the blood.

    As for the vessels, I see their is a huge difference between our works and our walk. It doesn't help that both are likened to gold, but I see the ones you are referring to as our ministries, fruit etc, not our righteousness and character which the 2 Tim 2 vessels are referring to...ie our works will be tested, but our righteousness will not.
    I will get back to you about this soon, thanks Gary

    Posted 5 months ago #

17. hopefulone
    Member

    Bruce said, "Here are some verses which tell us that Christ’s disciples weren’t saved till later on.

    Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

    Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

    Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven

    Do you think the disciples were converted at this point in time, or do you believe what Jesus said?"

    Doug (hopefulone): I believe both. It is the term "converted" in which we are having trouble. I posted a link to a sermon by George Whitefield on this subject. Whitefield noted how Christians cannot stay as they are at the place of the new birth, anymore than a physical baby can remain a baby for but a short time. Both must grow up. A baby Christian (born again) is full of flaws in his beliefs, his temperament, his actions, his thinking. I think all honest Christians can attest to this truth. We are made completely new people in our spirit, but our minds must be transformed, bondages and habits broken, and so on. The disciples, though truly born again men (and women), had a worldly attitude about the kingdom of God and their place of leadership. In that, they needed to become as little children. Whitefield also notes that little children are not perfect and to be "converted" as in born again, would not make one as a little child, as even little children are sinners with tendencies to selfishness, lying, stealing, and so on.

    Bruce: "Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

    Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

    Do you think Peter was converted at this point?"

    Doug: Yes, he was already born again. Note in context Jesus says, "that thy faith fail not." Peter had saving faith in the Lord Jesus as he had already professed him to be the Christ, the Son of God and Jesus had blessed him, confirming that the Father had showed this to him. Peter had also taken up the cross and was following the Lord Jesus. He had been baptized with the Christian baptism and this was never repeated. He had already gone out and preached, cast out demons and healed people at the command of Jesus. But Jesus spoke of the coming trial. This was a prophetic word to encourage Peter, that even though he would stumble and deny the Lord in his fear of men, yet he would turn back and then strengthen the other "brethren" who were also brethren in Christ.

    Bruce: "Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    It is obvious by this verse, that they hadn’t received the Holy Spirit yet, and there are others verses that go along with this. The verse is not saying that anyone believed on him."

    Doug: The baptism of the Holy Ghost was something foretold by John the Baptist and Joel the prophet. God had showed John that he whom God would show as the Son of God would baptize people with the Holy Ghost. John the apostle, writing after the fact, noted why the baptism of the Spirit had not yet happened at this point in his story, "because Jesus was not yet glorified." There was a time. This does not mean that the disciples did not have the Holy Ghost with them in a powerful way, only they were not yet filled with his power. Modern Christian teaching about the baptism in the Holy Ghost is very poor. The Reformation did not go on, as they should have, into the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and so this doctrine was left out of most churches. Even those denominations that claim this gift of God have many strange and unscriptural teachings. The Bible notes clearly that there is something called the "baptism of the Spirit" or "filled with the Spirit." The book of Acts clearly shows this:
    "Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 8:15-16 (KJV) Our use of words may be weak in describing this, but the very fact that those to whom Philip preached "believed and were baptized" was evident of their salvation. John and Peter praying for them brought another experience: the baptism of the Spirit." This is repeated in other places, too. What is confusing to many is that they don't understand how the Holy Ghost can be in someone, yet not fill them. To be filled with the Spirit, the requirement is different. The purpose is different. Just as the Son of God truly had the nature of God at conception, yet was not "filled with the Spirit" until his baptism by John, so the believer receives the new nature and new spirit when he is born again, yet is endued with power upon tarrying and praying for such.

    Bruce: "Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    This verse is quite clear, that to be born again, you must have the Spirit of Christ."
    Doug: See explanation above.

    Bruce: "Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    To be a true believer you must be born again of the Spirit of God."

    Doug: Indeed, but are you necessarily "filled with the Spirit" or "endued with power from on high." No you are not. One receives but a portion of the Spirit of God as they are made a new creature in Christ.

    Bruce: "Joh 7:2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.

    Joh 7:3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

    Joh 7:4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

    Joh 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

    Even his brethren weren’t believers.

    Joh 7:6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

    Joh 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil."

    Doug: You are proving my point, Bruce. Some of his own family members did not believe in Jesus, yet his disciples believed on him. Their faith was a gift of God, as was their repentance. These followers of Jesus were different. "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."
    John 17:14 (KJV) Here, without equivocation, Christ confirms the status of his disciples: "they are not of the world." Why? Because they had been born again.

    Bruce: "But as many as receive him to them gives he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. The only trouble is, who of them truly believed? I have only shown you a few, but there are many more verses. All his disciples deserted him and didn’t really confess him before men at his trial."

    Doug: Bruce, you are not rightly dividing the word. Clearly, not all of Israel received him, In fact, most did not. But John tells us plainly "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
    John 1:12-13 (KJV) Clearly, there were some that received him and to them he gave power to become the sons of God....not in the future, but the moment they believed. "Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:13-14 (KJV)
    Jesus was busy giving that water of life to all who believed in him, including that woman at the well, Zacchaeus, the blind man, all the apostles, the women who followed him, and so many more. Were there a lot of them. No. We seen on the day of Pentecost only 120 faithful followers of Jesus awaiting his instruction and tarrying for the power from on high. But there were surely true followers of Jesus who were born again as noted by his own words.

    Posted 5 months ago #

RSS feed for this topic