Hell is about judgment and justice and punishment. God is just. We are told that hell was made for the devil and his angels who rebelled against God. It is a place of torment and punishment and a place to keep human souls who have refused God's mercy. It is a prison. The word "hell" is mentioned 14 times in the gospels and 54 times in the entire Bible. Other words are used to describe it, also. It is a place to be avoided at any cost. Clearly, all of us would perish in hell for eternity if God had not sent his son. The good news is good because it gives a way to escape hell for every living soul.
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Posted 1 year ago #
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Absolutely 'Hell' is to be avoided, and Christ Jesus is the only way to eternal life, through and in, Him.
A 2 part discussion on 'Hell', can be found here - with many scriptures and references.
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/hell.html
I will be interested in others comments..?
In His love,
RogerPosted 1 year ago # -
Roger
Thank you. I trust the Lord's input on this matter. I have come to some non-traditional conclusions from the word, and have been looking for insight from the Lord about the matter. I have not yet read the whole link, but am looking forward to. I just wanted to go on record beforehand as saying that what I have read looks very good, and will be happy to comment a little later.God bless,
Cory
Posted 1 year ago # -
Cory - I confess I have not read it all yet either, the email link arrived in my mail box this a.m. (2 hours ago).
I have read some (not all) of the other articles on the same site, and so far, found them good.. :-)
Posted 1 year ago # -
The link you posted is instruction on how to throw out the common doctrine of hell to replace it with the New Age sort of hell, which is not eternal. Avoid such things like the plague.
Hell is clearly denoted in the book of Revelations, including the lake of fire where the "beast and the false prophet", satan, and all who are judged in the final judgment will find themselves. It is the second death. Those who try to explain away this truth will find their name in the book of life removed. I suggest you avoid such heresy with everything within you.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I will seek what the Lord gives me to seek and understand. I fear no delusion if His Spirit leads me. Few would understand the levels of delusion I have been rescued from, and the depths of utter lies and depravity. I fear no false doctrine, no spirit of man or devil in my search for the truth. God does NOT permit me to read anything false without warning me in my spirit repeatedly. I will seek the truth and never yield from seeking it until all vestiges of the traditions of men are removed from me by His grace. FOR THIS I KNOW FOR CERTAIN: That the truth sets me free. And I KNOW when I find the truth BECAUSE it sets me free. AND I KNOW the truth because it illuminates ALL THE REST OF SCRIPTURE. I have said this a lot, but perfect love casts out fear. My God in whom I trust will deliver me from any and all lies, even those that find a small crack to take root in my mind for a time. He HAS delivered me and will continue to do so, FEAR OF LIES is no reason to shy away from seeking the truth. Those who fear to challenge the traditions of men by ignoring the diligent search of truth are destined to be bound by the lies they choose to remain in.
That said,
Roger
Thank you so much for the link. I have read almost all of part one. It is very well done and objective. I wrote down the following thoughts as I read through what I have so far:-Zeal without knowledge produces false doctrines and error (man's current concept of HELL)
-People perish for lack of knowledge
-Ignorance, apathy and holding to the traditions of men is a strong root of unbelief. Learning to learn comes from trusting the Lord, not holding to dogmas, but daring to wait on Him until the truth is revealed. So few have the patience for this. They want answers more than they want to learn trust and receive bread from Him who alone can give it.
For which the Scripture says Add to your faith virtue, and virture knowledge and to knowledge patience....
They that received not the love of (searching out) the truth have strong delusion sent upon them. Parroting doctrines and traditions of men and demons only increases wrath, for does not James say that if we have more teachers, we shall incur a stricter judgment? And to be slow to speak...? I fear that many do not understand the value of holding the tongue on things they know not, and did not receive from God.
Therefore, if any man speak, let it be as the oracles of God...? And for every careless word we will be held accountable...?? Shall we parrot a doctrine of hell long held by traditions of men without searching the Scriptures diligently? Did not God say to the Israelites to eradicate ALL who lived in the land of promise, and not to compromise any?
Let it not be found in any of us that we promoted doctrines of men through ignorance or lack of desire to know the truth, OR EVEN fear of being taken by deceit. Let us not fear to seek the truth and to learn Christ Jesus, especially when such good sources of knowledge as you linked are presented. For certainly, the tools to learn the truth (the Spirit and the mind) are given for such. Even the mentally impaired, while having difficulty learning, do not often fall into the trap of trying to teach something they know nothing of, and hence will be judged more leniently.
EDIT: My faith is in CHRIST not a doctrine of hell. If a false doctrine of hell has to go because it is false, Christ remains.
EDIT 2: I forgot to mention that part of my thank you is for the fact that I have had these thoughts the last few days, and I feel it was the Spirit in me causing me to groan for the truth. I really do consider this to be a piece of work from the Lord that can be judged through prayer and waiting on Him after reviewing it.
I have been through so much falsehood that the way He leads me in seeking truth is to wait on Him and wait on Him. I am not able to just pick up any and every book and try to distill it with my intellect, and sort out the good from the bad. I wait for Him to show me what to read, and I follow Him. Any errors that begin to take root He removes after only a brief time, because my heart is for Him alone. I learned in "Bible" college the error of reading anything and everything that looks good. The Spirit is very clear with me in this matter, I have learned to discern good and evil from undergoing more pain because of my errors than I would care to discuss.
Posted 1 year ago # -
hi Roger, thanks for the link. I gave it a quick scan and will go over it a little more thoroughly. Edit: will take a closer look...
blessings...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Why would you post a link you haven't read? Why would you promote something you are unsure of?
This discussion is why hell is very much a part of the gospel of Christ. There is not only eternal life to be gained, there is eternal death to be shunned.
The doctrine of eternal punishment is not a man made dogma any more than the doctrine of eternal life. The Scripture has much to say about both.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36 (KJV)If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:9-11 (KJV)And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:10-15 (KJV)There is no escaping the clear words of these verses. They should be forever etched into the minds of Christians who fear God. There is no "special insight" or "knowledge" that can explain away the eternal judgment of God. Those that embrace such heresy will probably end up in those fires. So please, do not preach a gospel that describes no punishment of hell fire for the wicked.
Posted 1 year ago # -
hopefulone
My brother, no one on this thread is preaching such a thing. So far as I've read in that linked item, it's an honest, decent exposition of the Scriptural terminology. I do agree completely that the Scripture you posted is clear. I wouldn't even want to suggest that it is incorrect, or twist it. But I still do believe there is a general lack of understanding of what hell actually IS (by the church in general), and the link provided by Roger has THUS FAR been only an exposition of what the Scripture says, nothing more. We need fear no such study, but can certainly learn from the Lord by it.
EDIT: I haven't read a word of the other "hell" thread. Goodness knows what's in it. I would prefer not to know at this point. I saw 19 pages and could only conclude that it would be only an effort in wading through contradictory opinions.
EDIT 2: I also in the past have sometimes been prompted by the Spirit to forward something without reading it in entirety. It may be a similar thing in this case (though I don't know). Maybe he trusts the person who sent it to him and read enough to know that it's ok to link(?) Just a thought, not trying to speak for Roger.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hopefulone, I have read some, not all, of the article, and I have also read some, not all, of the other articles on the same site, as I previously explained.
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I am still learning, and acknowledge that I make mistakes.
I would advise all of us to take everything that is written by man, before the Lord, for His revelation and evaluation through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
I am sure that you do the same with teachings spoken, or written, by Pastor Steve Brown whose site you have promoted and linked posts to previously..?
I apologise if I have caused you any offense by posting this link on your thread.
In His love,
RogerPosted 1 year ago # -
Hopefulone, and Roger
Here's my present take:While continuing with the remainder of part one, I felt restrained by God. As I continued to review the material cautiously, the words and the logic seem correct, BUT, there is a spirit in the teaching that I have encountered before and I know for a fact is false (I was delivered of it). That being said, all of the arguments and such are very reasonable, and especially the beginning expounding of the Scriptural uses of the term hell. This information is valuable. It is enlightening. But when he gets into the logic, I can't receive it. I did receive it three years ago, and an unclean spirit was behind it, from which I was delivered. So this time being warned of God in my spirit at the end of part 1, I read cautiously.
Now, my assessment at present IS that a lot of what he says is correct, with regards to punishment not being eternal. But you won't hear me teaching it, because I do not yet know the fullness of the matter. So while I believe the introduction (first 3/4 of part 1) is valuable information, there is more yet that I can't quite put my finger on. The logic is strong, well scripturally supported, etc. I am not afraid to pitch anything out the window that proves to be false. But I neither can I just choose what to pitch out the window. I must wait for the Lord's instruction. One thing's for sure, this type of study is not for the weak of faith who have not been exposed to the subtleties of our enemy. Whatever it is behind the logic and the teaching, I don't like it. I do know though it is not the Lord, and I can say that with assurance.
Just my present take. I DO believe with all my heart that the "inherited" current standard teaching on hell generally accepted by fundamentalists et al protestants in general is largely based on ignorance and tradition as well as Greek mythology. What the truth is though He has yet to make clear to me through His word, by His Spirit. And so I will close my post with the thoughts of the Psalmist: I will not concern myself with things that are too high for me. I will, however, continue to ask the LORD to make the matter clear, through waiting on Him.
God bless you all.
Cory
Posted 1 year ago # -
Thankyou for that Cory,
I have now read both parts, and will need to read through again for complete understanding - and I take note of your caution/testimony/counsel.To all:
In part II, the writer explains something (under 'Second Death') concerning the Rev. 20 scripture that hopefulone included above, that I have never fully understood, which is - if Hell is a 'the lake of fire', then how can it be cast into the the same 'lake of fire'..?
The writer also explains toward the end of Part II that there are things which we do not fully understand, and I believe we will all be agreed on that.
I thank those that have commented so far - which is exactly what I asked for in my first post on this thread. :-)
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Hopefulone - if you truly believe that this link to IPS, and these series of comments should not be on your thread, then your sending an email to John or Susan with a request to remove them, will sort the matter very quickly.
In His love,
RogerPosted 1 year ago # -
Well, "hell," "Hades," "Sheol" all get thrown into the lake of fire. So the lake of fire is the ultimate end destination for satan and his demons and all mankind that is not written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 20:10 states, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
(Looking at 19 different translation of Rev 20:10 they all say the same thing of something along the lines of "forever and ever," "age upon age," eternity, etc.)
later in Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
This is reinforced by revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
This seems to me that the "punishment" or lake of fire is eternal. We know it is for satan and his demons and God refers to those who don't follow him as "children of the devil" so I would assume and I think reason follows that the lake of fire is eternal for unredeemed mankind as well.
Im not entirely sure what scriptures support the doctrine of annihilationism. (Where man just ceases to be) Anyone have scriptureally reference that supports annihilationism? Cause I can't find it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Jonathon - I cannot find scripture for total annihilation either, and, interestingly, neither does the writer of the link I posted give one.
Which IMU is why the article is titled 'The problem of Hell' - I see it as an article for discussion, not a conclusion :-)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Jonathan, I have seen only Scriptures purported to mean that (annihilationism), but Scripture is used to interpret Scripture and the majority of all relevant Scripture clearly support eternal punishment..."Where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched." Our Lord Jesus taught this very thing. As the Creator, he understood completely and never left the impression that hell or punishment was temporary.
Also, in that article on the above mentioned web site, I saw the attempt to make the story of the rich man and Lazarus as not a literal story, but figurative or some such thing. Friends, Jesus used parables all the time to explain important truths, but never did he tell a parable using untrue facts. Would Jesus misrepresent hell and paradise? He is truth itself and would never do that. The story is real. There is torment in hell; no water; great heat; flames; no way out; darkness. It is a prison and place of punishment. The Lake of Fire is within hell, it seems, but no one is in it as yet. Hell is separated from paradise by a great gulf that cannot be crossed. Paradise is a place of rest, where there is water, comfort, peace, joy, and light. There is reason to believe that Jesus opened the way to heaven itself for believers that was not open before; paradise not being in the direct presence of God. This I do not know for sure, but the Lord prayed that we could be with him where he was before he came to earth to behold his glory (John 17).Posted 1 year ago # -
1Jo 2:2 KJV - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Jhn 1:29 KJV - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Jhn 3:17 KJV - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 4:42 KJV - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Jhn 6:33 KJV - For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Jhn 6:51 KJV - I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Rom 5:18 KJV - Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
1Cr 11:32 KJV - But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
2Cr 5:19 KJV - To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Hbr 9:26 KJV - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
After reading the above verses....my question to you is:
Did Jesus pay the FULL AND COMPLETE PENALTY FOR SIN BY HIS CRUCIFIXION?
My next question: Did Jesus pay the FULL AND COMPLETE PENALTY FOR ALL SIN FROM THE FALL OF ADAM TO THE FINAL DAY OF THIS WORLD?
If your answers are YES to the above questions, then tell me why a single person paying the penalty for only their own sins must spend ETERNITY IN EVERLASTING TORMENT when ALL the sins of the WHOLE world only cost Jesus His stripes of beating and His crucifixion on the cross?
Why is a single sinner separated from God's presence for eternity and Jesus Christ was only separated from His Father's presence for 3 days and nights?
Posted 1 year ago # -
GWyPL: "Did Jesus pay the FULL AND COMPLETE PENALTY FOR SIN BY HIS CRUCIFIXION?" No, he was the propitiation (satisfied what God required) for our sins to be forgiven and us redeemed. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
Heb 2:9 (KJV) note that the word "penalty" is not even used in the Bible."My next question: Did Jesus pay the FULL AND COMPLETE PENALTY FOR ALL SIN FROM THE FALL OF ADAM TO THE FINAL DAY OF THIS WORLD?" No, see above
"If your answers are YES to the above questions, then tell me why a single person paying the penalty for only their own sins must spend ETERNITY IN EVERLASTING TORMENT when ALL the sins of the WHOLE world only cost Jesus His stripes of beating and His crucifixion on the cross?"
The main answer to that question is because God cannot appropriate the perfect sacrifice of his son to an unrepentant sinner. They have chosen, by their rejection of God's Savior, to pay for their own sins, and that price is eternal death. The atonement was made by Christ for the pardon of all who would believe. He did not "pay" the penalty, but the price of redemption.
What is amazing is that men would choose to hate God and his salvation that makes it so easy for them to escape this eternal punishment and find pardon and mercy.
Also, men do not understand the extreme wickedness of a life of continual sin and rebellion to God. They make light of sin and its repercussions and all the damage and harm it does. We also make light of the amazing grace of God toward all men, continuously reaching out and working with sinful men to encourage them to turn around and back to him.
A good question to ask yourself is this: Do you believe that God is just and good? Is He fair? We understand so little of life and eternity and God with our finite minds, but we can grasp there there is someone much greater than us, who knows all things and is perfectly just and fair and good. His means provided to escape is so very simple compared to the impossibility of keeping the law perfectly. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation"
Heb 2:3 (KJV)Posted 1 year ago #