1. shirleym
   Inactive

   I think I’d rather go beat my head against the wall somewhere than to write this.
   As I know I am going against the masses here.

   It took me a while to figure out that this site and Andrew are promoting the doctrine of sinless perfection which is a Calvinistic doctrine made popular by Wesley.
   This doctrine was I believe inspired by Madame Guyon. It is also taught in the Latter Rain and Manifest Sons of God movements.
   This teaching even goes further by some who say that if you sin once you have to start over and be born again.

   I went straight to Andrew by e-mail to see where he stands on this issue as it is his forum. Actually Andrew never answered my question, “can Christians attain sinlessness”.
   I did learn, however, by his material that he does indeed teach this.

   It seems that the actual words are not spoken. Rather it is taught without speaking the words “sinless perfection”.
   Dumb me, I went to another site to seek help on this
   issue and was immediately deleted. Seems I had forgotten that it was a Calvinistic site. Again secrecy.

   Why all the secretiveness? If this is believed to be the gospel truth, why not admit exactly what you believe. Why the secrecy? I believe it is because it is known that this is a controversial doctrine.
   Why do you think it is so controversial? Do you think all
   who oppose it are simply immature babes who do not understand
   the "deep" concepts here. Do you think all are people who
   excuse sin or trample the grace of God? This concept
   has already created an elitism.

   Frankly, when I found out what was being promoted here, I was hit hard.
   I was supporting Andrew and appreciating that he was giving a place for those of us to gather who have been hit by deception from every side.

   Frankly, I had not totally realized what Wesley and Calvinism had been teaching. I am astounded. I consider this teaching to be even more damaging to the sheep than the OSAS message.

   Every teaching will bring forth fruit.
   This minimizes the importance of the blood atonement and the imputed righteousness of Jesus.
   Simply put it elevates man and decreases God.

   Mark 10:18 (KJV) 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
   Romans 3:10 (KJV) 0 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
   Romans 10:4 (KJV) 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
   Galatians 2:16 (KJV) 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
   2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV) 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
   So if you what you are correct, when we stand before Him we will not need His blood to impute righteousness, we can be received because we are sinless. What arrogance. What presumption.

   Are we better than Paul who struggled and admitted that he was chief of sinners?
   1 Timothy 1:15 (KJV) 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
   Romans 7:18-23 (KJV) 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
   19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
   20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
   21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
   22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
   23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
   Galatians 5:17 (KJV) 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

   I realize that you are sincere mature Christians who do know the Word, and that you deeply believe what you are espousing. This could easily become a battle of dueling scriptures. I humbly ask that you would consider what you are promoting as it is a teaching that can turn people into self-righteous prideful people who are leaning on their own righteousness.

   I sincerely hope that this will not be deleted. If what you are espousing is correct, then you should allow it to be questioned and brought to light.

   1 John 1:8 (KJV) 8 IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US.

   The scripture that I kept getting about this site is:
   Genesis 3:5 (KJV) 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
   And:
   1 Corinthians 10:12 (KJV) 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

   And I appreciate that you are a praying people. However, I humbly ask that if you do pray for me that you do not pray that I come into this doctrine.

   This is a very serious teaching and I openly renounce and reject it.

   I plead not out of anger but a deep grief that this doctrine is growing in numbers.
   I spent many years chasing the deep things of God only to find the wisdom of returning to the simplicity of devotion to Christ.
   2 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV) 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
   The gospel is profound yet simple. It is only by the blood of Jesus that we are made holy.

   I keep reading about "cleanness" indicating that we will
   achieve the state of sinlessness and then we will be clean.

   The blood of Jesus cleanses and imputes righteousness to those
   of us have not "come to perfection" here on earth.
   So we can boldy enter the throne of God. We can approach Him
   with clean hands because His blood has washed us white as snow.

   We can approach him not because we have attained "self-righteousness" but because His blood has cleansed us.

   I humbly submit this song, And it is only a song, but it portrays my heart:
   Just as I am without one plea.
   But that His blood was shed for me.
   And that thou bidst me come to thee
   Oh Lamb of God I come, I come.

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. Ken1
   Member

   Personally i dont buy this Doctrine that we can attain sinless perfection in this life.

   Ken1.

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. shirleym
   Inactive

   Praise God, Ken!
   Thanks for your boldness to say so.

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. Ken1
   Member

   Your welcome :)

   Ken1.

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. harvestisripe
   Member

   Shirly I am asking also that replies be in a spirit of love.

   I do not believe in sinless perfection, we will not be perfect untill we get our Immoratal bodies, however I do believe we can walk in Romans 6 where sin - no longer - has a holds on us where we are no longer slaves to sin and we can go about our days walking in the spirit, abiding in him without sinning.

   I believe one can totally come into their walk never having willful or rebellious sin against God again that it is grievesome to them.

   Can we slip - maby a bad thought - a harsh word - absolutely but we are truely grieved and convicted immediately by the Holy Spirit and we repent.

   Calvins take on sinless perfection is a total stumbling block to the Child of God in fact it can keep some from ever being truely saved and actually has nothing to do with Romans 6.

   I will not go into that. I would that you seek Jesus on this life of living without willful sin in ones life, and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you what has been said, looking at mans opinion will only bring confussion.

   You are loved here shirley and may we all come in peace as we explain what we believe and without condemination.

   God Bless, Lynn

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. Dependant on Grace
   Member

   Hi shirleym,

   Firstly, I've been quiet for a while so I haven't 'met' you. Therefore it's nice to meet you and may I add (IMHO) every voice is valid as no-one has it all right.

   In response to your post, I for one do not believe in the doctrine of sinless perfection as you have described. I do however believe that it is not necessary for a christian to sin.

   Before I was saved I was a slave to sinful desires, that is, I had no power over them - I obeyed them. Now I am infused with the Spirit of Christ, I have authority over my flesh and, should I choose to use it, any fleshly or sinful desires can be brought into subjection to the name of Jesus - I no longer have to obey them if I don't want to.

   Even if I slip up on occasion there is provision for me to overcome if I choose to.

   I am not a theologian (not even sure how to spell it :)) but I believe that Andrew S. teaches is that as believers we can walk before the Lord with a clear conscience and experience a state of being where we have no knowledge of sin or offence between us and the Father.

   I agree, and have experienced 'seasons' of this - the 'slip ups' are getting less frequent and I hope that one day I will live in that reality continuously.

   There are some mature, seasoned believers on this forum who are further down the road than we are (me anyway!) and perhaps living closer to the Lord than we are. Sometimes they might forget what it's like to have a regular battle with your own flesh. Having said that, I appreciate their wisdom and experience.

   You are welcome here and thank you for speaking what's on your heart.

   DoG

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. Hisservant
   Member

   Praise Yahshua! In WHOSE Righteousness i trust

   i find myself in the unusual position of speaking in defence of this site although right now i am somewhat dismayed at things. However

   My dear you most certainly do not rightly understand what Andrew teaches and Andrew correct me if i am wrong. i have in person and with my own ears heard Andrew say this. Normal Christianity is walking without KNOWN sin before the Father. Key word known. Let me assure you that if You practice lawlessness/walk in darkness you will not enter into HIS Kingdom. As long as we are looking at scripture. Consider:

   Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

   Mt 7:22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

   Mt 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

   These are not the words of an Apostle, but of THE JUDGE HIMSELF. And we see here that if we practice lawlessness HE doesn't recognize us as on of HIS disciples.

   Also lets go a few verses further than Romans 7:23

   Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

   Ro 7:25 I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

   Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

   Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

   The flesh is death, BUT the Spirit is life! We must allow HIS Spirit to live through us. Our flesh is at emnity with the Spirit and MUST be crucified/put to death. This is by faith.

   i have seen no one on here, least of all Andrew teach or proclaim sinless perfection ie: it is impossible to sin.

   We are however called to walk a narrow way where a sin should be a rare occurence. No true saint should be in regular or daily practice of any disobedience before the Father. If any one is the only thing i can say is repent.

   All i can say dear one is i think you misunderstand some of the things being spoken here. Walk Holy before the Father with a pure heart and a clean conscience.

   To quote Apostle John " And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

   Hisservant rich

   Matthew 4:17

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. endtimesservant
   Member

   shirleym,
   I do not believe that we will in this flesh become sinless. I do however believe that we are new creatures in Christ Jesus; Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature, made from incorruptible seed; 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
   But just exactly what of us is the new creature? The flesh? God forbid! The soul? God forbid! The spirit? Yea and amen. This is why there are numerous scriptures regarding the new in Ephesians 4:17-32 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
   Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
   This is not accomplished in the flesh but in the spirit by The Spirit helping us to reckon ourselves as dead, Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Paul tells us in Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
   I would like to ask these two questions:
   1.) Have you ever sinned since being born again?

   2.) If you answered question 1 affirmatively, which part of you was not in agreement to sin?
   a.) flesh
   b.) soul
   c.) spirit

   Beloved we indeed are new creatures in Christ Jesus and are faced with second by second opportunities to deny that new creation within us... Please dear God help us to die to the wants and desires of our flesh, the twisted reasoning of our soul and walk as the new creation we are, walk in the spirit so we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. (amen)
   chris

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. MikeG
   Member

   Define Sinless Perfection? I believe we can and must consistently overcome sin. IF we sin we have an advocate...Jesus Christ. Sin is the exception for a Christian not the rule.

   I believe the scriptures show we will not enter the Kingdom if we are found with sin in our lives.

   Here is the most clear teaching.

   1] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
   [2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
   [3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
   [4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
   [5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3 1-5

   The Lord Yeshua rebukes this Church. Why? Their works are not perfect! Yet today most teach its heresy to even think such a thing.

   Note verse 5 especially. If we do not overcome he will blot our names out of the book of life.

   Every Minister on Earth should be teaching this.

   PS I would be stunned if John Calvin taught this doctrine. Where is the proof?

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. anthony
    Member

    In all of this i think it is important that we avoid a: "we are superior,better than those that struggle attitude"Good people can feel crushed by this.I have said before, we are in a battle,and on this battlefield there will be casualties.Medics with the oil and the wine are required.(James 5:16)
    Only walking wounded need apply.
    Incidently one of my favouite verses is:Joshua 3:5
    Blessings

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. Thomas
    Member

    Interesting you mention Calvin and Wesley as a foundation of a doctrine of sinless perfection. Actually that is not correct. Charles Finney who was definitely not a Calvinist, is credited with this doctrine being popularized in the second great awakening. My understanding is Calvin taught that those who would be saved were sovereignly saved by God regardless of their own will or perfection. Calvin did not preach a doctrine of perfection at all, I have to ask where you got that from?

    Although Finney did read and quote Wesley he did not adopt Wesley's understanding of perfectionism. For more on Finney go to gospeltuth.com

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. Free Willie
    Blocked

    Mt 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

    What is Lawlessness? Isn't is the practice of living OUTSIDE the Law? Of rejecting the law of Law?

    This is the New Covenant I will make after that time. I will put my Laws in your minds and write them upon your hearts.
    And I will put my Spirit within you, to move you to keep my Laws and statutes.

    Modern Christianity actually promotes Lawlessness today. "The Law has been done away with".

    Who is the man of lawlessness? Satan is the one who rejected Gods law and set up his own kingdom?

    Scripture refers to "the sons of lawlessness". Aren't these "sons of lawlessness" the same ones who agree with the one who has done away with Gods Law? Who reject Gods law and then break his Law.

    We are to work out our salvations, and with the word salvation or saved meaning rescue, deliverence or setting free, today we must work out our setting free.
    You shall know the truth and these truthes shall set you free.

    Can you think of a worse thing to hear, after 30 years of being a Believer, and hearing "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" Depart from me you who have rejected my Law, who have been disobedient to me by defiling my Sabbaths and Law.

    Isn't it time to hear what God says, and not keep trusting in man? Even if that man is Peter or Paul.

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. Andy
    Member

    Shirley, I applaud your boldness to confront such a belief head-on. Thank you for doing so!

    I hadn't heard of this doctrine before but I can safely say it leaves a check in my spirit and I disagree with the thesis.

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. JimC
    Member

    I mentioned this on another thread related to this topic but since I think it is relevant I will say it again.

    In the Old Testament there were two kinds of sins:
    1. sins of ingorance
    2. presumptuous sins

    Sins of ignorance were committed unwittingly, or inadvertently. One might have stepped on the bone of a dead person or used water that had been contaminated by an unclean insect. This would be an example of a sin committed in ignorance. However, once this sin was brought to the attention of the person, then they had to bring a sin offering to the priest. Even though it was committed in ignorance, it was counted as a sin, and atonement had to be made.

    A presumptuous sin, on the other hand, was a sin committed in pride. It was committed with full knowledge that it was sinful, but because of their prideful heart, they didn't care and willfully sinned. This sin if not repented of, was punishable by death.

    I think most of us are not infinite in our wisdom and are guilty of sins of ignorance, in that, as we are trying to serve the Lord, we inadvertently, say or do something, hurtful or traumatic to another person; or we may fail to offer assistance when we should have helped. I have been guilty of this many times, and when I learn of it, then I asked forgiveness and attempt to make it right. I believe we are guilty of sinning ignorantly in many different ways.

    The presumptuous sins, those committed willfully and with full knowledge that their actions are sinfulness; these are the sins which we do not have to commit. If one habitually commits these kinds of sins, it is because they choose to commit them.

    Jim

    Posted 1 year ago #

15. Ken1
    Member

    Free Willie said.
    Modern Christianity actually promotes Lawlessness today. "The Law has been done away with".

    Ken1.
    FW it is very plain here.

    Gal3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    Ken1.

    Posted 1 year ago #

16. Andrew J Horton
    Member

    Hi "shirleym" I also admire your boldness to raise this issue, but have to agree with "Dependant on Grace" that Andrew recently preached a sermon where he denounced the "sinless perfection" doctrine and I also have to agree with "tom4jean" that to my knowledge Calvin definitely did not believe in the "sinless perfection" doctrine, Wesley made a confusing statement which left it open-ended whether or not he believed in the "sinless perfection" doctrine and Finney appeared to definitely believe in the "sinless perfection" doctrine...

    As for myself, I, my old self, my sinful nature, still sins in areas where the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed His truth to me in my innermost being but I, my new self, my new creation, who God now defines as me and not my old self, never sins, can't sin because it was created in all holiness and righteousness of the truth... I am sheltering, as I said in another thread yesterday, under Christ my Passover, Christ my Righteousness and Christ in me the Hope of Glory... This is the word of my testimony and I praise God for the Blood of Jesus... :-)

    Posted 1 year ago #

17. wholeheart
    Member

    Greetings shirleym, I appreciate your honesty and persistence. One of the first things the Lord opened my eyes to is in Numbers 15, He showed me the difference between intentional sin and unintentional sin.. When we intentionally do a thing we know is sin, He calls that defiant sin and calls it blaspheming the Lord, He made no atonement for this kind of sin, People were stoned or put onside the camp which back then your community was your life.. Unintentional sin, something that is more of a knee jerk reaction, you didn't intend to do, He prescribed an atonement for. He shows us there are different degrees of sin. The NT gives us different degrees of sin, certain sins listed state that if you do these you will not enter the Kingdom of God.

    God didn't change with the New Covenant, the atonement changed and gives us a perpetual advocate Jesus Christ. Both the Old and New Covenants purpose is to give us a way to fellowship with God. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin. God is a consuming fire as well as a God of grace and love so He gave us a way to be Holy as He is Holy in order to bring us back into fellowship with Him again, in the OT, through the blood of animals and now through the blood of His perfect Son who has overcome sin for us all. (The only ones that get the benefits are those that believe and are born again)

    His seed of righteousness displaces the seed of sin when we are truly born again. Jesus stated that it was necessary for Him to go (die) so the Counselor the (Holy Spirit) would come and lead us into all truth. He also baptized us with His Holy Spirit, which gives us ability to put off the old man and it's sin nature and walk as a new creation in Christ. As we are in Him (abiding) and we are His temple, our nature changes from loving sin to hating it. If it doesn't we are not born again and there is a clog in the pipe somewhere. Does that make us sinless, no, we are given a free will which will always give us the freedom to CHOOSE to sin. The power of God that dwells in us has conquered sin, this gives us the ability to do so if we choose, this is moment by moment as we live life.. The WORD of God is alive an powerful, dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it is my experience that has we understand the Gospel and the power of His word it does change us as we choose to believe and abide in Him.

    I have worked with a lot of people that are sincere believers in the Lord that are in bondage. But, I see that when they begin to see and believe His word by the leading of His Spirit, they are able to put off sin and also mental disorders. I have seen people that professionals have given up on embrace Gods truth and begin to walk in the freedom from sin and bondage. The problem is the word of God has been diluted and rendered powerless by many of the doctrines that are a stench to God and lead men to hell. .

    Do I sin, not intentionally, I would rather die then to willfully be disobedient to the Lord. Am I perfect, only in Him. I was born again in 1971, taught strictly by the Holy Spirit because of by situation so I have been at this for a few years. I still stumble at times as you know if you read my resent post, but I know and walk in the rest and peace of the Lord with His joy as my strength.

    Jesus said, "If you love me you will obey my commandments"

    Posted 1 year ago #

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