IS THIS “HATEFUL”?? – Andrew Strom

I have been very surprised and shocked in the last couple of days at all the Christians who want us to stay “silent” on the issue of Homosexuality – and make out that it is nothing ‘special’ – just any old sin. They think it makes us “look bad” to speak up about it – judgmental and “unloving”…

I think what a lot of people don’t realize is that this issue is specifically
being used by the devil as the “leading edge” of his agenda in the
earth. He is using Homosexuality to push his religion of “secularism”
massively amongst the youth. More than any single issue, this is
the devil’s favorite.

Think about this for a moment. Today’s Homosexual movement
is not just about “practicing” Homosexuality. They are also about
“preaching” it and `converting´ the youth to embrace it as “good”.
What they push is actually “spiritual” propaganda – a false gospel
of ‘sin-celebration’ that totally undermines the Bible. We need to
start seeing these activists as aggressive “preachers” of a new
religion – a religion designed to totally replace Christianity. These
are some of it’s most zealous ‘missionaries’. And they are
successfully “converting” the youth of all the earth.

The whole idea is to completely rid the planet of any sense of
what “sin” is.

You will notice that in the last 25 years there has been an
enormous push in the media to “normalize” Homosexuality. It
used to be that two men kissing would make everyone want to
gag. But these activists knew that if they put sympathetic “gay”
characters again and again into movies and TV shows, eventually
they would wear down the scruples of the audience. Comedies are
especially helpful for this. And gradually they have “converted” an
entire generation of young people to their cause. In this they have
been overwhelmingly successful. It may be the greatest “propaganda”
victory ever. The battle is already theirs. And they are using the
media to spread it more and more around the world.

We need to start seeing gay promotions and gay TV shows, not
just as ‘Homosexual’ events, but also as “preaching” events. They
are designed to “convert’ people – to make them ‘fine’ with sin – yet
“not fine” with anyone who opposes the sin. Their “preachers”
have been winning this war. It is devil take the youngest.

Because of all this “propaganda”, Christians have become more
and more reluctant to call Homosexuality what the Bible clearly
calls it – an “abomination”. (Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:27, etc.)
Nobody ever wants to use that word any more. We are frightened
to be thought of as “unloving” or judgmental. And so more and
more we let the devil define what is sin and what is not. I tell you,
if we roll over on this issue, the devil will have us for breakfast –
he really will. Entire generations are riding on our response.

If we let the devil define “sin” then it is over. The gospel cannot
be preached properly when the devil defines it’s terms.

There are actually very few sins that earn the title “abomination”
in God’s sight – especially when it is “paraded” in the open.
Homosexuality is seen by Him as being so bad that it is often
associated with “Judgment” in Scripture. We also find throughout
history that when a culture embraces Homosexuality, it is almost
always very close to the end of that civilization. History shows
this again and again.

One of the biggest lies, of course, is that there is some kind of
“gay gene” – that people are “born with”. This is completely false,
and if you do a search on the Internet you will find that there has
been study after study done in academic circles, with no evidence
of a “gay gene” whatsoever. Not that it truly matters any more.
The ‘propaganda’ war is mostly won anyhow.

But let me be clear on this: It is not OK to treat ‘gay’ individuals
with anything less than Christian love and kindness. It is very
important to go about this with the right spirit. We must always
act out of love and godly wisdom. But we must also speak the
TRUTH. We are not at “war” with individual ‘gay’ people. Quite
the opposite. But the movement and it’s message – that is a
different story. There is a war going on for the hearts and minds
of today’s youth. We are not to fight this in the “flesh” – with politics
or campaigning, etc. But we certainly are to raise our voices and
to loudly “speak the truth in love”. Otherwise the upcoming
generation will be lost to the most powerful and clever “false
gospel” of them all.

In closing, let me say that it is not “loving” to be silent. True love
warns and pleads with people not to follow the way of sin and
death. We cannot compromise on this. It is compromise that is
“hateful” and leaves people stuck where they are. Love warns,
because it knows the consequences if it stays silent. This is true
mercy. So please – do not stop “speaking the truth in love”, my
friends. It is truly a MUST in this hour. An entire generation is at stake.

-PLEASE COMMENT on this topic below-

God bless you all! – Andrew Strom.

Posted in Articles by Andrew on August 31st, 2012 at 7:35 pm.


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407 Replies

  1. Pam UK Aug 30th 2012

    I have openly warned many gay folks I have met and quoted Leviticus to them and have done it in a loving and sensible way. Some listen, some do not, but I have had letters from solicitors warning me to let them alone. When I got the chance (I prayed for) I told them why I had to warn them so they would know, on the day of judgement, their blood would not be on my head.
    One of the men I warned, who read the leaflet I gave him all through, was found dead, choked on his own vomit alone in his bedsit some months later.
    I only hope he asked for forgiveness beforehand.
    Another guy, we were making headway with and he listened – at church, was doing very well and then, (we were ‘moved’ – asked to leave) some time later we heard the elders had spoken to him and now he is a ‘she’ after having a gender operation in the Netherlands.
    We were absolutely dumbfounded!
    This is a particularly nasty spirit at large and the more the ‘church’ covers it instead of addressing it, the deeper the ‘church’ goes into deception.
    We cannot be menpleasers and God pleasers at the same time. A line was drawn at that ‘church’ we used to attend – I saw it and didn’t understand what it meant until now. Whom will we serve, God or man?

  2. Andrew Aug 30th 2012

    Wow, Pam!


  3. Thanks Andrew. A timely word indeed, spoken both truthfully and in love.

  4. I have put a copy of this article on Facebook I should an interesting response…………………

  5. T Adams Aug 30th 2012

    I couldn’t agree more. A funny, yet not quite so funny story: I have AOL, I have had AOL since the mid 90’s and as per my usual way of doing things if a vendor or supplier hasn’t angered me in some way I rarely change. So I am zipping through the various “headline” pages and run across one that caught my eye. According to the story a father had been told by his early twenty-something son that he was “gay”. The father disowned the son. AOL purported to show a letter that the father had written the young man telling him not to bother coming to his families home, not to expect presents anymore, and lastly not to come to the man’s funeral. Wow…
    I related to a disappointed father as mine had acted in a very similar way when he found that HIS teenage son (me) smoked dope. I took the time to write a few comments at the bottom of the page, mostly empathizing with the boy as having a parent disown you, especially at that young age, can do some serious damage.
    I followed that sentiment with “hate the sin, love the sinner”, explaining how homosexuality was an abomination before God – as per the Holy Bible.
    Little did I realize that I was on the “gay and lesbian” page of AOL. I had no idea they had such a thing-
    The anger and hostility directed towards me was SERIOUS.
    . to wit:

    *Who the **** do you think you are? Who gave you the right to judge me…

    *so you talked to God… God told you that homosexuality was wrong huh?

    The hate filled responses prompted me to contact a moderator and have my original post removed. lesson learned.

  6. Lori T Aug 30th 2012

    This message is not hateful…it is needed. This push of the acceptance homosexual sin won’t stop there; next it will be acceptance of pedophilia. Look at Rome. Wickedness abounded. Sadly, we are on that same road. :'(

  7. Laurie Aug 30th 2012

    I believe that this is just a sign of worse things to come. We have misrepresented God’s grace, by allowing sin to continue unchecked, even among us who are believers. Our family knows about this firsthand. A member of our family, who was a pastor, left his wife and children, to pursue a gay lifestyle, destroying their trust in the process.
    Now, according to the denomination he was a part of, not only would his sin be accepted, but they would have married him and his ‘husband.’ All this, they say is because of the grace and forgiveness of God.
    In the years to follow I believe we will see an acceptance in the world, and church system, of practices too dark to mention. I also believe this is part of ‘the great falling away’ the bible speaks of, and the powerful delusion that will separate true believers from those who love only themselves. Those who truly believe will have to get ready for a terrible persecution which will brand those who speak the truth as ‘hatemongers.’

  8. In reference to your e-mail I agree with you so much
    We have the same problem at home, with our daughter trying to tell us we want to send everyone to hell.
    God showed me there is another storm coming and it is described in 2 Peter chapter 2 verse 17-18
    For someone who understands the Word of God ( this is false religion ) & it invades the homes of christians
    The fight is on again against evil
    Be strong and just rely on on what the Word of God says and then continue to preach it only.
    We are servants of the Most High God nothing else , so say and do the Masters Will which is His Words.

  9. KathyG. Aug 30th 2012

    Andrew Strom, Thank you for your obedience to speak “BOLDLY.” Prov. 28:1 – The wicked man flees though no one pursues, but the righteous are as BOLD as a lion.
    Thank you for keeping it all so “simple” and allowing God to teach “truth” through you. :)
    It all begins with “listening” to the voice of God.
    May God continue to protect you as you bring forth His word of “warning” to this next generation.
    Is. 7:9 – if you do not stand firm on your faith, you do not stand at all.
    ~No One Can Stand Against The Almighty God.
    Bless you Andrew. I am praying for you :)

  10. I agree with the spirit of this post, absolutely! There is such a harshness and hard heartedness in the homesexual spirit, it’s unreal. The fear is that there will be too harsh of a hand coming against the people who are struggling (the gays) or that the church will be to forgiving and forgetting that the gay person is not required to change. Either result is out of balance and therefore out of truth.

    I don’t believe in a gay gene, however I am convinced that some have homosexual tendancies, perhaps even from birth. People hate this too, because they think that I am saying that they were born defective and how could anyone think that?! It’s quite simple, really. What if a baby were born without arms and legs? Would you think that he was born defective too? Yes, I think so. We can actually have no fear in admitting the obvious. Our fear of what people might do from that point should not overcrowd our admittance of the truth.

    So, they may have been born abnormally. What to do?! And that’s been my prayer. What do you do with a man who is born without legs? Generally, you find that we accept him for who he is and try not to change him. However, you do not generally see society bending to meet his every need so that he stays handicapped and helpless. No, we make accommodations any way that we can, but we do still help him to strive to become self-sufficent and to see that he can still achieve relatively the same freedoms and joys as those with legs. We give them a wheelchair. We give them prosthetics. We take them to prayer meetings and pray for a miracle; we help them into physical therapy to strengthen (to a normal person, it would be overstrengthening) the muscles they do have, teach them how to compensate, encourage them with their resolve, even look after their diet to make sure they are building themselves up. In a sense, homosexuals are no different.

    The point is, that when a person is missing something, or born with challenges, they require extra attention, more support, love in the form of more consideration toward their plight, constant awareness of their need. They need more! Not less. And not many Christians desire to give more to the homosexuals, since they see it as a sin that beats all sin. They don’t view them as needing more love, care, and consideration than others. And then, if they did, they would have a choice: do they really want to help out one person that long term?

    Hmmm… because numbers usually are what matter in the churches these days. How many you have converted, not necessarily the quality of the conversions. Homosexuals take years to win over, years to heal (not all, I understand). They aren’t quick fixes or easily tallied up as Christians. They need us for a long time before. The problem is becoming so apparent now that we cannot ignore it.

    God did not say that talking with homosexuals makes you one, nor did He say that talking to homosexuals will get you a ticket to Hell. He said that homosexuality itself is a sin. We are obligated to speak to our brothers and sisters that are in sin. We may be obligated to speak to them seventy times seven….

    Eh, brothers?

    The best way to cut a straight line when every force in the world is against you to do so, is to wait until the resolve is unshakable in your person, and then set out determined and slow. Take the hits, but make them serve your resolve, not eventually tear you down. Otherwise, you will lose your footing and become one of the millions of opposing forces to another who attempts to cut that straight line.

  11. Burnie Aug 30th 2012

    Thank you Pastor Andrew for speaking the truth. You are correct with what you say about speaking the word in Love and letting those know that Jesus loves them. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and also to commend you for putting this article out. You are a true warrior…

  12. Christina Aug 30th 2012

    Cannot agree more. We have to be responsible Kingdom citizens. We are are the conscience of society. Truth in Love must be spoken to bring Life.

  13. marjane feinberg Aug 30th 2012

    right on brother! i find it interesting that one of the major “sponsors” of the homosexual agenda was the Rockefellar Foundation.

  14. Gerrie Aug 30th 2012

    Just read 2 Tim. 3:10 – 4:5 this morning. Has quite something to say about rebuking and correcting. It also underlines the fact that some would not tolerate sound doctrine.

    If we should not address this phenomenon, then why should be care about drunkenness, debauchery, adultery (Oh, I forgot, it is already OK), etc? Compare Mat. 5 with the world we live in – no wonder the world is a mess. There is too much titration of the truth in the church (i.e. identifying isolated verses or parts out of true context to back up what they want it to say).

  15. jonjones2502 Aug 30th 2012

    I agree with what you wrote. But I believe that where we as Christians first missed it and opened the door to this in not calling sin the promiscuity that became so prevalent in the past 50 or so years. The first sexual immorality that appeared in entertainment was heterosexual. Many Christians of churchians stopped calling it sin when couples lived together, a sin which I committed. Many in churches refused to rebuke young people who were having sex outside of marriage saying “well they are in love and they plan on getting married some day”. Now it has just gone to the next level. And the same excuses were used then as being used with homosexuality – you are being judgmental, you are going to run them off, times have changed, we are more enlightened. We need to call all sexual sin what it is – SIN, but do it as Andrew stated in love.

  16. Francois Marais Aug 30th 2012

    As a man delivered from homosexuality, after following Christ’s example of firstly meeting a persons (homosexual) need – love and acceptance as a human being [like every other sinner], secondly building trust through relationship, I then thirdly tell them that the Kingdom has come near them and I show them the book of Jude..

    …5 I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
    Apostates Depraved and Doomed

    12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

    14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

    16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

    20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    NB! NB! NB! NB!
    22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

  17. Welcome to the Jezebel society where Gods prophets are silenced and “character” assassinated for speaking the truth. Let’s not forget that Jesus called it like he saw it too, using words like “son of a devil” and “brood of vipers” and Paul said things like that too when he was dealing with stubborn and unrepentant people too. This ain’t for sissies.

  18. Jacquie Aug 30th 2012

    We have the same problem in South Africa. More and more teenagers at school are calling themselves gay and nobody is allowed to say anything as its not politically correct!! It seems every second child is now gay – how did that happen, I ask my kids?

  19. Yep got some interesting responses

  20. The church has become nothing but a wishy washy building with the same type of people inside. WE MUST stand against sin………it’s our reasonable service, not only to say that we must try to show people the way to eternal life with Jesus Christ our Savior. Don’t listen to them, you do what you are doing, and God is in favor of it 100%.

  21. Guessing that you don’t have many homosexual friends Strom? Or at least none that you wish to have longevity of friendship.

  22. Terry Aima Aug 30th 2012

    I don’t always agree with your stance on some issues Andrew, but you hit the proverbial nail on the head with this one. Excellent observation.

  23. Thanks Brother Andrew. This subject cannot be skirted by the church. The scripture makes it clear that the relationship between a man and a woman in the context of marriage is a picture of Christ’s relationship between Himself and His Bride the Church. Anything outside of marriage is fornication, male with male, female with female is an abomination. Is it any wonder the devil wants to promote homosexuality and every type of perversion and get unsuspecting christians to shut up about such things. SIN is SIN. Calling evil good and good evil is also a great SIN before our Holy and Mighty God. We are to extend mercy and love to the sinner as Christ did to us. But never, never compromise. The Lord help us in these last days.

  24. I’m sorry but I do not see any Christlikeness in Strom’s words above. Just anti gay sentiment.

  25. a farmer Aug 30th 2012

    Amen, Brother Andrew!

    For more verification of the impact of homosexuality in politics, you might be interested in the well-documented book, “The Pink Swastika–Homosexuality In the Nazi Party.”

    This is a battle of the image of Satan against the image of God. It goes to the heart of a person’s “I am-ness.” That is why it is of much greater concern than other sins.

  26. outside the church, anything goes and requires silence or acceptance…..morality has to do with God related stuff ( sin) and if you’ve blown God away then morality goes out also as part of the disposable baggage.

    those seeking love and in turn acceptance will turn to those who accept them and their choices.

    Most are hurting people or angry people because they have been hurt….Sin is sin… and it does great harm… not only does it separate you from God it also opens the door to more bad stuff. Sex is the easiest door to open with a person , so naturally it will be pandered as very OK and satisfies the Love thing on the soul and body level. kind of….not really but they don’t know better or ask for more.

    i struggled with sexual sin for yrs and i would never never wish upon another the torment i went through. As i sought for the answer i knew I would get but didn’t want, I got so very very destroyed by the church who BASHED me with the Word -law. The effects of that were far more damaging than the sin i needed to repent of. I met the righteous pharisees bigtime .
    then one day a friend just simply spoke the truth , in LOVE to me and I got it. end of story… turned and free. Not judging me , just letting me know what God said and maybe because I loved God and was seeking Him my longing for him was greater than y desire to hold onto my sinful walk…. it was my time to receive.
    God in a moment can and I believe will meet those who are captured by this. What a comfort. the TRUTH does not require a hammer to be applied.
    I agree, this is not just any ole sin but a major doorway that is promoted by the enemy working thru his agents for his purpose and not to take it lightly. I approach this more in prayer and standing than with a hammer. i find hammer cause people to go numb.
    more to pray for a generation who is wanting their God given desire to be loved in a true way, that they may receive the fullnessof Christ crucified than a soulish 1/2 false measure.
    I do hate what is hate-able and love what is love-able.

    When we speak not as in the past of Truth without love and swing away from love without Truth, then maybe we can speak of Truth with Love so the deaf may hear and have their longings TRUELY satisfied 1

  27. There is such a pressure on Christians and minstries to tone down the discussion of homosexuality. The automatic label of homophobic or judgemental or hatred serves to silance a lot of people who are none of those things. They simply don’t want the label, and they haven’t figured out a good way to stand strong and take the heat. The fact is satan knows how to effectively silence truth – it is through the fear of man’s opinion. The church needs to embrace both the loving side of God and the righteous nature of God and uncompromisingly preach (and practice both). I also think the phrase, “hate the sin, love the sinner,” needs to be replaced. regardless of the scriptural accuracey of the statement, friends ands foes alike gravatate to the word “hate.”

  28. As Paul wrote in Romans when person turn their back completely on God he gives them over to a reprobate mind. Everything can come on them. The Homosexual Left, when they accuse you of being a Nazi, it’s because the historical facts are they were founding members of the Nazi Party and the SS and ran the concentration camps.. Every kind of Evil is found in them because they are haters of God! So don’t be surprised by the vile hate that they spew on you, and the intimidation and terror tactics they use. Hitler specifically ordered that homosexuals be recruited for his Browns shirts, because they were best at busitng heads. if we don’t repent and pray and stand up against this wickedness they will be leading the forces that will be rounding Christians up into the boxcars! This is Historical fact! Pick up your copy of the “Pink Swasticka” and your questions will be answered and your eyes opened! They are 3% of the population yet the make up some say roughly 30-50% of the staffers in the US government and they run or own the media that creates our reality.
    Romans 1:24
    24So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. 25Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.
    26That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.
    28When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. 29Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. 30They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. 31They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. 32They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

    Chapter One:
    It was a quiet night in Munich. The people moving
    along the streets in the heart of the city were grim. They
    walked heads down, hands deep in the pockets of their
    frayed coats. All around, the spirit of defeat hung like a pall in the evening air; it was etched on the faces of the out of work soldiers on every street corner and in every café. Germany had been defeated in the war, but it had been crushed by the terms of the Versailles Treaty. Eve ry where the people were still mired in depression and despair, several years after the humiliating surrender of Kaiser Wilhelm.In this at mosphere the purposeful stride of Captain Ernst Roehm seemed out of place. But Roehm was accustomed to being different. A homosexual with a taste for boys, Roehm was part of a growing subculture in Germany which fancied it self a superior form of German man hood.A large, heavy man, Roehm had been a professional soldier since 1906, and, after the war, had temorarily lent his talents to a socialist terror organization called the Iron Fist.
    On this night Roehm was on his way to meet some associates who had formed a much more powerful socialist organization.
    At the door of the Bratwurstgloeckl, a tavern frequented
    by homosex ual rough necks and bully- boys, Roehm turned in and joined the handful of sexual deviants and occultists who were celebrating the success of a new campaign of terror. Their organization, once known as the Ger man Worker’s Party, was now called the NationalsozialistischeDeutcheArbeiterpartei,The National Socialist German Worker’s Party — the Nazis.
    Yes, the Nazis met in a “gay” bar.
    It was no coincidence that homosexuals were among
    those who founded the Nazi Party. In fact, the party grew
    out of a number of groups in Germany which were centers
    of homosexual activity and activism. Many of the charac –
    teristic rituals, symbols, activities and philosophies we associate with Nazism came from these organizations or from contemporary homosexuals. The extended- arm “Sieg Heil” salute, for example, was a ritual of the Wandervoegel (“Wandering Birds” or “Rovers”), a male youth so ciety which be came the Ger man equivalent of the Boy Scouts. The Wandervoegel was started in the late 1800s by a group of homo sexual teenagers. Its first adult leader, Karl Fischer, called him self “der Fuehrer” (“the Leader”) (Koch:25f).Hans Blue her, a homosexual Nazi philosopher and important early member of the Wandervoegel, in cited a sensation in 1912 with publication of The Ger man Wandervoegel Movement as an Erotic Phenomenon, which told how the movement had be come one in which young boys could be introduced into the homosexual life style (Rec tor:39f). The Wandervoegel and other youth organizations were later merged into the Hitler Youth (which it self be came known among the populace as the “Homo Youth” because of rampant homosexuality. – Rec tor:52).
    Many of the Nazi emblems, such as the swastika, the double lightning bolt “SS” symbol, and even the inverted triangle symbol used to identify classes of prisoners in the concentration camps, originated among homosexual occultists in Ger many(some, such as the swastika, are actually quite ancient symbols which were merely revived by these homosexual groups).

  29. Great post Kathe enjoyed reading it and the Grace that came from it.

    Ian what would Andrew have needed to say in his article that would have shown Christlikeness to you? How do you think Jesus would have written it?

  30. Gary Gorham Aug 30th 2012

    several years ago the Lord spoke to me and said, ” Don’t tell the thief the liar, the adulterer, the drug addict or the homosexual to stop what they are doing. Tell them that I love them and if they will turn to Me I will love them away from the things that are destroying their lives.” Maybe that was just for me, who knows?

  31. sadmom Aug 30th 2012

    Andrew, I have never heard this perspective about homosexuality
    being a mission tool used by the enemy. It sounds accurate to me when I think about the entirety of your statement. I have personally
    experienced this in my home. My youngest son announced to us that he is gay. He insists he was born this way. I grieved for a year, while pleading with him to rethink what he was walking into.
    My husband and I have chosen to express unconditional love toward him. He does not bring anyone to our home or openly discuss his lifestyle in front of us. We pray unceasingly for him. I know there are many christian parents out there that are dealing with this dilema. Thank you for speaking with a biblical perspective, in the love of Christ.

  32. I entirely agree with Andrew. I would add that Christians are becoming subtly conditioned by the secular media to thnk like those who do not know Christ think. We are meant to have the mind of Christ. He suffered and died to save the people from their sins not to give us some insipid, sentimental philosophy of nicey-niceness and of anything-goes. We are to love the sinner but to hate the sin – something often said, but rarely done. If we really belong to Him, we need to consider what God thinks about homosexuality. The media has its own view and a satanic agenda to corrupt society even further. The example of Sodom tells us that God particularly hates homosexuality and will destroy because of it. Christians need to wake up and stop sitting on the fence.

  33. Maybe that’s a question for you Steve.How do you think Jesus would have written it?

  34. I guess hemaphrodites are not born that away, or Siamese twins have a choice. The curse has taken its toll. But what is the answer to it all? Shouting at the kingdom of darkness? Organizing voting blocks? Strutting our “I believ homosexual behavior is a sin” credentials?

    The answer has been and always will be the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, the only reason any of us even know what is and isn’t sin is because we are born again. And yet we now believe we can clean the outside of everyone else’s cup? These hand wringing “the gays are coming” sessions do nothing to promote the kingdom of God.

    It isn’t the gay agenda that has imprisoned the western church. It’s the American culture. If Jesus did die for gay people then they can only forsake that sin after they are born again and not because we confront them with carnal weapons. But it does afford us a sense of being moral warriors and the protectors of the Holy Grail.

    I have a petition that we can sign because we are against sinners acting like sinners. Correction must be within the church and not toward lost and dead sinners. I have been to many funerals and if commanded the corpse never adjusts his crocked tie. The only way that corpse could change anything about him is if was to get a new life.

  35. debylynne Aug 30th 2012

    i see nothing BUT love in andrews’ post. there are more at stake here than JUST the ‘practicing homosexuals’ – there are the ‘innocent’ the ‘naive’ the vulnerable and easily led astray….the children….what of these ian?? what of these??
    everyone in society is so ‘focused’ on their ‘individual rights’ that the truly innocent ones have NO protection – whether being ‘indoctrinated’ into thinking homosexuality is FINE or whether they are ‘murdered’ in their mother’s wombs – either way – it is the INNOCENT that are being SACRIFICED…..

    i’m NOT against a person because they are homosexual – i am AGAINST what the ‘homosexual agenda’ is doing to those that are UNABLE to protect themselves because they do NOT know what is REALLY being promoted here and who the ‘author’ of it is – the one intent on dragging them to hell.

    i see this over and over and over – it is no different in the ‘church’ as in the world – at least here in the U.S.A. – we have become so FOCUSED on the ‘individual law breaker’ getting their RIGHTS, that many many times, it is the VICTIM that has no voice – that gets run over and left to die – we have become SOOOOO focused in the church on NOT offending anyone in their sin – that we forget what the LORD GOD has ALWAYS known…..SIN SPREADS AND SIN KILLS AND DESTROYS……

    be MERCIFUL, give people an opportunity to HEAR the truth and love them and help them IF IF IF they WANT to be helped – to be free – but, if their only agenda is to PUSH THEIR WAY onto the ‘church’ – and onto the unknowing – then, for the LOVE OF GOD – protect the innocent – the naive – the unknowing……please.

  36. Gerrie Aug 30th 2012

    I see some remarks about sin. A cartoon sent to me once, pictured the staff showing their pastor a petition to have the word “sinner” changed to “a person who is morally challenged”. Many a true word is spoken in jest.

  37. I am not so sure that Christians do sit on he fence as much as they lack the courage to speak out for the fear of rejection themselves or just don’t know how to handle the situation.
    Speaking out about these issues among other Christians is relatively easy but to speak out against what would appear to be a tide of abuse from relational justification is another.
    Part of my work is with drink and drug abusers,among other issues,and I would say that 99% of those that I work with began abusing from a misaligned thinking of themselves they have themselves believed the lie the enemy has told them that “it is OK to do what they do,they deserve some happiness so why not?”
    In a world where the majority can “afford” to be Liberal this is an attractive option,sadly however an option that has exceedingly grave consequences.
    Challenging the behaviour of someone will always bring justification of that behaviour but challenging the thinking that goes behind that behaviour is something else.

  38. I actually understand why Andrew has to speak out on issues and put things in order. He has a prophetic calling. He has to speak and put things in order. It is his ministry and motivational gifting.
    Sin is everywhere in every church and every part of life. He speaks out because it is his Call to do so. It is his call to put things in order. That is what prophets do. He is showing the love of God when he does this.
    In days of old when the prophet came to an area, the Man of God of the day back then, people quaked because they knew the prophet set things in order. That is what the office is all about.
    Homosexuality is called an abomination, strongs H8441, something utterly disgusting to God. I had always been taught that sin was sin, but some sin is just worse before God. This is one of those sins. I’m glad Andrew pointed that out to me because I had false teaching and didn’t realize it. He set my thinking in order. I took his words, and went to the Word of God to study to shew myself approved on the topic. It is a shame even to speak of these things because they are so evil, yet television puts jokes on for people to laugh at about this sin.
    It’s not funny. It is not harmless. It sends people to hell. It is a devil (demon) that is destroying the lives and futures of people who need to be set free from it. We shouldn’t worship that devil. We shouldn’t give it even an inch of space in our lives, churches, land. We should order the land to vomit out the evil immediately in the name of Jesus. We should take authority over that thing, by the name and authority of Jesus and send it out of our land. And we should repent for not dealing with it sooner.
    I think Andrew Strom did a great service to the body of Christ in this nation by bringing up this topic. It’s like our hearts have waxed cold on the issue because of repeated insurgences of the enemy in the media to choke out the truth of the Word of God that is within us.

  39. What I dont get is why all the focus is on homosexuality and abortion and most everything else is left out. If we’re going to preach on sin, why not all of them? Why in America have we chosen only two and added them to our politics when there is so much more? It really irks me. It’s as if there are only two things that God hates. And it’s not true. Our tunnel vision isn’t good.

  40. Based on what Jesus taught about divorce and remarriage, where He clearly states it is adultery(Luke 16:18), I have come to believe that “the church” is ultimately responsible for the assault of homosexuality on our society. His clear emphasis on male and female, father and mother, man and wife, is all taught in the context of divorce and remarriage and NOT in the context of homosexuality, about which Jesus says nothing. But it can easily be construed that there is a relationship of the two topics of adultery and homosexuality based on the male/female emphasis that is made by Jesus. I have heard the subject of homosexuality discussed many times based on the teachings of Jesus on divorce and remarriage and the male/female arrangement that he emphasizes. There is a connection between the two topics in my opinion and they both share in a sort of mutual epidemic in our society today. I am convinced that one opens the door to the other.

    The absolute statements by Jesus about divorce and remarriage, such as:
    Luke 16:18 “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

    Mar 10:9 “What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
    Mar 10:10 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again.
    Mar 10:11 And He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
    Mar 10:12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”

    Paul concurs:
    1Cr 7:10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
    1Cr 7:11 (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

    1Cr 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

    Rom 7:2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
    Rom 7:3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

    These statements are absolute and unequivocal. The absolute authority and clarity and simplicity of these words must be acknowledged before you can proceed to further understanding. On this foundation you must build a more thorough understanding.

    The confusion centers mostly around the EXCEPTION made by Jesus when He says:
    Mat 19:9 “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, EXCEPT for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery .”

    Mat 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, EXCEPT for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

    The exception stated by Jesus DOES NOT nullify the clear and unequivocal warning He made about adultery. That is absolute. Jesus isn’t trying to have it both ways and He hasn’t made allowance for us to contradict Him but He is supporting what the Law has clearly made a point of addressing when a man and woman get married:
    Deu 22:13 “If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her,
    Deu 22:14 and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, ‘I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,’
    Deu 22:15 then the girl’s father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate.
    Deu 22:16 “The girl’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her;
    Deu 22:17 and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, “I did not find your daughter a virgin.” But this is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city.

    This is the similar situation that Joseph found himself in with Mary before the birth of Jesus. What was a man allowed to do, as far as Jesus was concerned, in regard to marrying a woman if it was found that she had not remained pure before marriage? For this cause, unchastity before marriage, Jesus made an exception for divorce, just as the Law did.

    Jesus did not contradict Himself when He stated that divorce and remarriage are adultery. Jesus did not give any justification for divorce and remarriage. None, except this one allowance, when the one you are marrying has already demonstrated an inclination to being unfaithful. This obviously carried more weight in a culture that embraced Moses law than it does in ours today.

    The church is in deep denial in regard to divorce and remarriage. Jesus says it is adultery. Rest assured that denying the words of Jesus Christ carry with it a great consequence. Our society is already suffering the ravages of this scourge brought on by an unfaithful people who deny Christ’s teaching and reject their role as salt and light, all the while pointing the finger at the world when we should have held up the standard for true righteousness . Corrupt religion is no different in our day than it was in Jesus day. Even the same issues were prominent then as now. Be warned!!!

    Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

  41. The idea that there is particular gay gene – like a gene for eye colour – is discredited by the fact that some individuals do switch from living as homosexuals to heterosexuals and others the other way around. To the extent that we have all inherited our sinful natures from Adam, why don’t we just say we cannot help sin because we have an original sin gene! The power of God is more powerful than our genes.

  42. debylynne Aug 30th 2012

    rick frueh
    brother, i assume you are a brother…..i don’t recognize anything you are saying as being what is taking place HERE. you said:

    “It isn’t the gay agenda that has imprisoned the western church. It’s the American culture. If Jesus did die for gay people then they can only forsake that sin after they are born again and not because we confront them with carnal weapons. But it does afford us a sense of being moral warriors and the protectors of the Holy Grail.”

    this isn’t even Biblical truth….ALL sinners must FIRST see their NEED to REPENT – BEFORE being ‘born again’ – FIRST, comes REPENTANCE – and the Word of God is a ‘carnal weapon’???

    brother, there is something very ‘off’ in this that you are saying – i don’t know who you have been dealing with, but something is wrong here in what you ‘see’….

    true believers DON’T ‘accost’ sinners with whips – we speak ‘the truth to them in LOVE’ – we aren’t talking to the ‘lost’ in this forum – we are talking to ‘one another’ about what is ‘confronting’ the church of JESUS CHRIST in our time.

    i agree with you – sinners sin – we have no right to expect anything DIFFERENT. it IS the church that the church is supposed to address BUT we are also called to SPEAK UP in the NAME OF THE LORD against the LIES OF THE ENEMY – to expose DECEPTION. DO YOU NOT AGREE????

    there is an AGENDA here – it IS satan’s agenda – unfortunately – people ALLOW themselves to be USED by him – be sorry for them and tell them they CAN BE FREE in Jesus’ name but DON’T ALLOW THIS THING TO GO UNCHALLENGED AND EVEN MORE TO BE DRAGGED OFF TO HELL BECAUSE OF OUR SILENCE.

    we are RESPONSIBLE if we say and do NOTHING.

  43. Hi Ian,
    thank you for your reply.
    I’m not sure how Jesus would have written it, that’s the whole point.
    It was a genuine attempt on my part to understand your point of view by asking you to share some of your perspective with me. I wanted,and still do,to understand why you felt Andrew was been anti gay.
    Do you disagree with his attempt to bring his concern to the table or the language he used in doing so or both?

  44. Kathleen Aug 30th 2012

    Thank you Francois Marais for your testimony and the powerful scripture you shared in Jude. What spoke to me was “stay in the love of God rather than the love of man.”

    In the last article alot was said about love…am I wrong in discerning that there is now a new definition of “love” that I am not aware of? If so who is redefining it within the church. Could it be apart of the new apostolic and prophetic movement? Could someone speak to this?

  45. debylynne Aug 30th 2012

    one of the things particularly listed that the LORD HATES – is the ‘shedding of innocent blood’….there is no blood MORE innocent than that of a ‘pre-born’ child………in another scripture the LORD states that ‘whoever causes one of the ‘little ones’ that believe on me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and be thrown into the sea…..’
    in BOTH these cases, it is the INNOCENT that the LORD is concerned with…..those that CANNOT defend themselves – whether from physical harm or ‘mental deception’…..

    abortion and the homosexual agenda are HUGE thrusts of the enemy – there is ALWAYS war going on around the ‘church’ on MANY fronts but these two particular areas are where he is focusing HEAVY artillery because he can do the most damage with the least amount of effort – they are addressed MORE because they are the areas of greatest attack with, perhaps, the greatest number of victims – at least that is how i see it and perhaps i am WRONG but that is how i see it.

    there is MUCH that the enemy is doing in our time to cause people to discount the Word of God – in the end – it’s ALWAYS about seeking to discredit God’s Word – for once THAT is removed – there are no ‘guardrails’ to prevent people from ‘pitching headlong over the cliff into hell’……none.

  46. Alta Lewis Aug 30th 2012

    Considering the fact that most of the headers in Nazi Germany were homosexuals the danger of people who plunge into open sin and become a law unto themselves falls over to the hurt of all who try to live holy. Not only is it sin, it can become a danger to all we hold dear.

  47. I used to think that homosexual and other deviant, trans-sexual behavior, though an abomination before God, was ‘over there’, i.e., not impacting God’s plan directly. Then came the day when my wife threatened to leave me, and my grown kids virtually went to war with me, after I calmly told them I would/could not attend a close friend’s lesbian “wedding” (held in a ‘church’, no less). That woke me up to how Satan is using homosexual ‘marriage’ to attack the real kind.

    That was a few years after a male friend, in his early 50’s, happily married (I thought) for nearly 30 years announced out of the blue one day that he was gay. He’d never had a lover. He just announced that he was going to go out and find one. The only precursor we could figure was that, for years, as a heterosexual (four kids) he had made a point of advocating for homosexual agendas on behalf of friends. (Those who make idols become like them.)

    Then there is a friend of my daughter’s… sweet kid. Early 20’s now. Smart. Privileged. Level-headed (I thought). I watched her grow up… drove her home from school from time to time, with my daughter. She lives just a few blocks away. As soon as she turned 18, she announced to her parents, out of the blue, that she wanted to be a ‘he’. S/he is moving forward with those plans.

    My daughter didn’t want to accept the fact that this girl was essentially committing suicide right before our eyes. Then they met up after freshman year and my daughter (though still a non-believer) ‘got’ what I was talking about… an abomination. Oh, did I mention that the principal of the high school they attended is not only an open lesbian but that she was preferentially hired over an equally qualified candidate BECAUSE she is a lesbian? Or that this friend was attending one of the most flagrantly lesbian universities in the nation when she made her decision. No influence there, I’m sure…

    I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written here, Andrew. The ACCEPTANCE of homosexuality is a sneak attack… one of Satan’s favorite weapons. Yet by my reading of Romans 1 it is more symptom than cause. I.e., having already denied God in myriad ways, this nation has been (past tense) given over to this devastating scourge. As others have noted here, returning from it is virtually impossible because every homosexual I know holds it as THE central pillar of their identity, refusing to separate the behavior from their personhood.

  48. Gary Vance Aug 30th 2012

    Every sexual sin was punishable by death under the Law of Moses. Why single out homosexual sin from others as particularly abominable? The stones were just as painful and fatal to the adulterer as the homosexual. The list of things that God finds abominable is very long and many Christians will find themselves on it. Here is a shortened list of things God calls an abomination.

    Cheating (Mic. 6:10)
    Adultery (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
    Oppression of others, particularly the poor or vulnerable (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
    A proud look (Pro. 6:16-17)
    A lying tongue (Pro. 6:17; 12:22)
    Hands that shed innocent blood ((Pro. 6:17)
    A wicked scheming heart (Pro. 6:18)
    The proud of heart (Pro. 16:5)
    A false witness that speaks lies (Pro. 6:19)
    A sower of discord (Pro. 6:19)
    A false balance or scale (Pro. 11:1)

  49. debylynne Aug 30th 2012

    amen, mark and kathleen….amen.

    and i would also like to know what it was that ian saw in this that seemed ‘unloving’ and just an ‘anti gay’ rant???? i mean that sincerely – i don’t see what he is talking about????

  50. Re. Ian comment on “homosexual friends,” (or any other kind): If one is seeking friendship with the world, one is by definition un-friending Christ. I.e., I cannot truly love them (true friendship) them by affirming their sin. I have had many homosexual friends. There were fine with me for decades… until I became a believer and shared the truth with them. Most have since walked away. Who are my brothers (my true and ultimate friends, with whom I hope to spend eternity)? The same as Jesus': those who do the will of God.

  51. imredeemed Aug 30th 2012

    When I read this I though of the words of I Peter 4:17 &18, “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”. I find verse 18 interesting when it states “..if the righteous SCARCELY be saved”. I think that is the biggest problem in the church, we say we’re saved, but scarcely. In other words, we don’t act like it. If the church doesn’t take holiness seriously, why in the world would we expect the unsaved to even remotely want to change. The church looks like the world, talks like the world, watches what the world watches, is involved in all the things the world’s involved in, yet we think we have the right to “speak the truth” to the unsaved. What pride & hypocrisy!! Until the church gets it’s act together, we have no chance with unsaved people. If we start living truly Godly lives, in our homes, in our workplaces, and out in society in general, maybe then people will see something different and want what we have. Until then, good luck with “speaking the truth in love” to the unsaved, all the while coming home and sitting in front of the tv shows and laughing at the programs that promote sin and unholiness. A double minded man will receive nothing from God, and if we’re receiving nothing from God, what do we have to give anyone?

  52. This is surely a sign that many Christians are lined up with the world rather than God. Many drawtheir morality more from the secular society than the bible. A sign that widespread apostacy, as St Paul predicted, is not far away.

    Lots of Christians dont want to speak out or state their views publically because they dont want to suffer for their beliefs or be chastised and become unpopular with unbelievers. They dont wish to suffer for their faith.

    We do have to be careful not to judge homosexual people as individuals though or make false claims like some ministers do. Some ministers claim wrongly that homosexuals just choose this sin and could be non gay if they wanted. Whilst it appears that many are really bisexual this may not bbe their main drive. Some however have never felt anything for the opposite sex. The sex drive is such a powerful drive and we cannot all choose to be 100% celebate as many claim they should, (not in our imaginations anyway). Jesus said those who can should accept this (celebacy), St Paul said not all are as I am, (in regard to celebacy). Those who have very little attraction to the opposite sex and who may not have the ability to be celebate either are therefore in a very VERY difficult and unenviable situation but should be able to avoid actual physical contact with the same sex.

    Some of these USA schemes to cure people from a homosexual orientation are ridiculous. One I saw on TV said they should wear an eleastic band around their wrists and ping it every time they got tempted with homosexual temptations. How stupid. At these schemes some feel obliged to think they are cured but I cant see a bit of councelling eradicating a distorted drive to procreate.

    The church needs to get real and back up the bible morality with some practical ways to help homosexuals do this (perhaps there are some good schemes – Im not up on this issue). . This would take a lot of prayer, a prayer movement even perhaps and annointing from God and much support and help from others in most cases I would have thought??? Possible deliverence ministry too?? Its not easy changing patterns of thinking even then, may take time, especuially if a homosexual christian finds that other Christains are not even bothered about their previous sinful behaviour. How can they become radical enough in such a church environment??

    I have read absolutely nothing at all that is in the slightest way hateful from Andrew Strom on this issue though. Any such suggestion seems bizaarre to me. Im wondering if anyone really meant that in fact, since it is just not true, he is addressing the issue not being hateful to anyone.

  53. “True love warns and pleads with people not to follow the way of sin and death. We cannot compromise on this.”

    Amen, Andrew. The case is exactly as you outline, and our faithful responsibility is exactly as you say.

    Blessings on your love of Truth and His Church !

    In Jesus, Steve

  54. debylynne Aug 30th 2012

    art, imredeemed and art – all i can to what you have clearly said is AMEN. absolutely AMEN.

  55. debylynne Aug 30th 2012

    please excuse me….
    that SHOULD say
    ‘art, imredeemed and STEVE’…..i apologize!!

  56. Jean Clink Aug 30th 2012

    There are things we can do in the political arena to keep this from being promoted to our children.

  57. Nicole Aug 30th 2012


  58. Frans J. L. Zegers, in your 2nd link the title says this –


    But my bible says this –

    Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:



  59. This is suppossed to be happening in the last days, it’s supposed to be like Sodom and Gomorah! The problem in the church is they aren’t equipped to deal with the issue. Gays don’t need to be talked to, they need the devil cast out of them. Once they commit the act of homosexual sin a demonic spirit comes into them and their desire for the opposite sex is destroyed so they think they are born gay. Shame on Christians for condemning the gays without providing a solution for their deliverance. If Jesus was here he would be casting out devils left and right setting these people free so they could live for Christ completely delivered and restored! #Acts29

  60. Andrew, I appreciate your willingness to speak out on this topic. You take flak for it, yet you do not ease up. I’m sure it is difficult; at the same time, I am sure you realize that even though there will be some who come against you, the majority of your followers, per se, agree with you. So you have a good number still rallying around you.

    I have followed your website and teachings for several years now, and to the best of my memory, I cannot recall you taking any kind of stand against remarriage after divorce. I wonder if it because, if the statistics in the rest of the Christian world are any indication of how many here on this site are divorced and remarried, it would mean that you could lose up to half of your following. (I know that “followers” isn’t really the right word, but it’s all that’s coming to me right now). That would be a very high price to pay for speaking truth.

    Davo has written a reply, to which I wholeheartedly agree. I hope everyone here has read it carefully.

    Laurie wrote something interesting as well. She stated, “A member of our family, who was a pastor, left his wife and children, to pursue a gay lifestyle, destroying their trust in the process. Now, according to the denomination he was a part of, not only would his sin be accepted, but they would have married him and his ‘husband.’ All this, they say is because of the grace and forgiveness of God.”

    Is that not exactly the argument that is made in favour of remarriage after divorce? Because of the grace and forgiveness of God many evangelical pastors are remarrying divorced people, and across the world, Christians are accepting it.

    Brother Andrew, I would like to encourage you to take this article that you just wrote, insert the words, “remarriage after divorce” into the spots where you have written “homosexual”, and see if it doesn’t ring true on all accounts.

    Please, please pray about this matter, Andrew, and see if the Lord isn’t asking you to take an even more difficult stand than the one you are taking now.

    I know that my words are strong, and thinking about how many Christians that we all know and deeply love are involved in this sin of adultery, is overwhelming. But just because the majority have accepted it, does not take away the fact that it is sin. It separates us from God. The Bible says that no adulterers will enter the kingdom of heaven. Sin must be repented of and turned away from. All sin.

    I wonder if God is turning a deaf ear towards our pleas against homosexuality, because we are walking in sin regarding adultery (as well as a number of others). At some point, He must be saying, “My people pick and choose which things they want to hear from Me. I cannot honor divided hearts.”

  61. Holly Holland Aug 30th 2012

    It is quite simple, we are in the days of Lot and Noah……but, i know there will be the last greatest outpouring of Holy Spirit before the rapture, :))

  62. L. Alex Smith Aug 30th 2012

    When can we in the modern-day church confront siin? When we have the depth of the relationship with God to where His holiness radiates from us. I read once of a healing minister (either it was John G. Lake, or it was Smith Wigglesworth, can’t remember) who was so full of the presence of God in His holiness–that when he walked down the aisle of the railway carriage to go get a drink or go to the loo…he heard behind him as he passed, sounds. He turned and in astonishment, saw that, as he had passed them, people were literally falling out of their seats, clutching their bellies, and groaning with the Conviction of the Lord upon them! And he wasn’t even preaching, or doing anything “spiritual”–just going to the drinking fountain or the Gents’ loo. WELL !!!
    If he can do it– if he could have this level of holiness and presence of God–why can’t we???
    And if we can, why Don’t we…?
    Did Jesus rebuke sinners? Not really…he was called ‘a friend of sinners’. Did he rebuke the “righteous” Pharisees? Absolutely! In the Gospel, it said, “and the people heard him gladly.” Were people saved from their sins? YES–how? Even the temple authorities, when sent to arrest him, came back sheepishly, “Well, what happened ? Where is he? Did you get him? ” ….”Uuhhh, no…not quite…you see… never a man spoke like THIS man!” –“WHAT!!??? Are YOU deceived as well?” Jesus’ very PRESENCE did something to them!
    When, O when, can we get to that place of overflowing with the presence of God?
    Paul, addressing the Athenian Greeks, on the Areopagus (Mars Hill, the centre of Philosophical debate and rhetoric) did NOT address their sin of homosexuality (of which many were engaged in) but rather, their misplaced search for God, in their (off to one side) altar to THEOS AGNOSKO– the Unknown God. The Jailer, when Paul and Barnabas were in the slimy mudhole “basement” prison–where the sewage ran down into– was convicted by 1)their midnight praises to the Most High God, and 2)their faithfulness not to escape when given the opportunity by the earthquake which shattered the prison and loosed everyone’s fetters (that sounds supernatural)….and possibly, since it was not stated, by their containing the Presence of God– he came trembling to them, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” When was the last time anyone came to us ASKING how to get saved???
    I am not saying to avoid addressing sin.
    I am not saying that sin should not be confronted, especially when it is hurting the innocent.
    But I am saying that there is something that we lack, that Jesus, Paul, Barnabas, and Smith Wigglesworth (or John G. Lake) had– that I haven’t yet seen…. that I covet righteously for myself, and yet feel so far from.
    Hosea 10:12….”…seek ye the LORD, until He come and rain righteousness upon you.”

  63. I agree totally with you Andrew, and its a great concern that we must continue to contend for the faith; the whole gospel and to show the incredible love of Jesus to Sinners as we once were (but we have been washed…….).

    If you google my name you will see my story; as I am a Christian counsellor who is very involved in this area of same sex attraction. It has been costly but also a priviledge and its an end time battle I believe. We must speak out the truth while there is still time, for the precious ones that the Lord is calling out of the pit into His abundant life.

    Lesley Pilkington

  64. Debbie W. Aug 30th 2012

    Debylynne, you said there are no guardrails that prevent people from falling into hell. There is God’s Holy Spirit that can rescue anyone from the firey pit. There will be a day when God’s wrath will come upon the earth to judge those who have forsaken His free gift of eternal life and abundant grace to forgive through His sacrifice on the cross. What we see is desensitizing of all things evil and wicked. I ask how many of you still watch T.V. and go to movies? Your mind has been seared and conscience defiled already. They use blasphemy against the name of God and dismiss all immorality on the screen. Just one swear word, one bad scene and it’s okay to watch. This is idolatry. Any sin against our bodies, mind and soul is pure destruction and is enmity with God. I had a dream years ago about what is taking place today in our culture and this world. It is all coming to pass. We point the finger at those who are blatantly rebellious while we sit and eat popcorn to watch immorality on TV or movie screen and pay for it. This is why I don’t participate in this. If we are to reflect the Lord Jesus Christ, then we better fill our eyes with pure light and not darkness.

  65. debylynne Aug 30th 2012

    i will take the risk and ‘suggest’ something on the ‘divorce and remarriage’ issue. but first, i will say with GOD, i HATE divorce. many people do NOT, however, understand what the Word of God has to say on the subject in it’s ENTIRETY – i’m NOT advocating it – but i would STRONGLY recommend BEFORE getting on any ‘bandwagons’ that people would read something that was written by david servant of heavensfamily – i’m going to put the link up here and leave it at that – if you WANT to ‘examine’ this issue – please do.

    i would strongly encourage you to EXAMINE this ministry AND realize that david takes a VERY strong stand in support of the Word of God in all things – he has simply ‘taken the time’ to truly ‘search out the scriptures’ to find the ‘heart of God’ in this matter as well as many others….his books can be read online for FREE – PLEASE examine what is being presented and then make a determiniation as to whether you believe what he is sharing or not. :-)

  66. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    debbie – i don’t go to ‘movies’ and i RARELY watch tv – i.e. as in ‘entertainment’ programs. my heart is to NOT put things ‘before my eyes’ that grieve Him.

    the HOLY SPIRIT has come to TAKE of what belongs to the LORD JESUS and give it to US – the leading us into ALL truth and the illumination of God’s Word is the MOST precious thing for it IS the LORD JESUS HIMSELF ….’in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD and the Word WAS God……’

    once the Word of God is ‘set aside’ there will be NO stopping the ‘imaginations’ of men as to WHATEVER they want to say is ‘of God’ at all – nothing. perhaps you have been blessed and NOT been exposed to what is going on in the ‘charismatic world’ today but there is ALLLL sorts of ‘words’ SUPPOSEDLY from the Holy Spirit that men claim God has given them and yet…..when examined by the Word of God, they are found to be FALSE. these ‘words of the supposed Holy Spirit’ are given pre-eminence over the written Word if that is the case…..and they call it “God is doing a new thing”….the LORD GOD DOES NOT VIOLATE HIS WORD. we MUST have the Word AND the Spirit. amen?? amen.

    i stand by what i said, debbie w. when the Word of God is ‘cast down’ – ‘every man doing what is right in his own eyes’ will be RAMPANT – moreso than even NOW – RAMPANT in the ‘supposed church’ itself, as well as the world.

  67. Justine Aug 31st 2012

    Excellent article Andrew – thank you very much. It is so tragic though that we don’t seem to be able to get the message across to gay people that God can change them. If they have tried to change themselves and have failed, then of course, the only thing they can do is accept themselves as they are. If they really saw how God can transform lives……….I have heard testimonies of gays who have been set free by the Lord but not many.

  68. Anthony Donaghey Aug 31st 2012

    Andrew, you are right on the money. Keep preaching the truth about this issue. Tasmania just passed the vote among politicians for same sex marriages, and this government has openly gone against God by trying to tell Israel to give away land given it by God forevermore, this wrath we see happening in America is on its way here to Australia and as believers in Christ we have to pray that God’s will be done. Notice when Jesus told the Jewish people of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70AD, He didn’t then go and pray against the will of the Father in this matter, and he didn’t make any apologies to the people for the coming wrath of God upon them as a nation. He simply told them the truth, gave them the option, and left it at that. We must do likewise. The nations are mocking a God who will not be mocked and He will laugh at them and hold them in derision as He brings on the end of all things before their eyes.
    I saw Germaine Greer openly mocking God and His word on the ABC this week, a panel of self proclaimed intellectuals all for abortion and homosexuality were all so very confident in their mocking of God.
    As a nation, we deserve His wrath right now. And one day, all of those who are so confident of mocking God will stand before Him and do you know what they will say then – Nothing! They will, like the man found at the feast without the wedding garment, be utterly speechless. When the enormity of Hell and Eternity hits them in that moment all their strutting and confidence in their own intelligence is going to come apart at the seams and they will have nothing to say, no jokes, no quips, no long winded intellectual jibber-jabber about Plato or Aristotle, nothing, silence, utterly speechless.
    So you dear brother, keep on with the truth, expect no pats on the back, (they seldom come, not even from churchgoers, but know that our God loves what you are doing, He loves that you are willing to take scorn on His behalf and He loves you and all His children who are willing to tell a dying world that it is in fact dying.
    Shalom Andrew.
    Love ya.

  69. Amen!
    Keep speaking the TRUTH!

  70. Kathleen in New York Aug 31st 2012

    Thank you, thank you, thank you, Andrew, for today’s email. Please be encouraged that you are speaking what we need to hear; you are speaking truth in love.

    I have been so very grieved to see what has happened in America with its almost total acceptance of homosexuality, as if it’s nothing. (Ditto with divorce and remarriage.)

    I live in the state of New York where the state legislature passed the gay marriage bill in June 2011, with little public protest, even from God’s ministers. In my community, if one thinks homosexuality is a sin, then you are in for persecution. Your family will most certainly be ostracized, your children mocked and ridiculed, and you may even lose your job.

    Remember Larry King’s interview with lesbian “Christian” Jennifer Knapp two years ago? Incredibly shocking, but not for the lukewarm church that now embraces its gay and lesbian “brothers and sisters.” After all, “It’s a sin to judge others,” they say. You can find the interview on YouTube, if you haven’t seen it. (Have a puke bucket handy.)

    Also, I was grieved to read a couple of the posts on your blog in response to the Southern Decadence gay pride festival and the hurricane. Whether or not hurricane Isaac is God’s judgment or not isn’t really the issue though.

    It’s the *attitude* toward homosexuality that you addressed in your email – that’s the major issue – the nonchalant, partially hardened, “so what?” attitude that’s clearly prevalent in the church right now. “Homosexuality is just another sin. Why single it out?” some wrote in response.

    Oh my, no way. That’s not God’s Word, His Spirit, His attitude. He is calling us all to repentance, beloved.

    We are in the last of the last days, and if there were ever a time to preach hard against an eternally damning sin, it’s when the vast majority of the world no longer thinks it’s a sin!

    We need to hear messages like “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” as if our lives depended on it. Because they do.



  71. V. L. R. Aug 31st 2012

    Nothing “hateful” about God’s holiness, truth, love, wisdom and righteousness at all. When His people finally rise up to His standards in these areas, and Christ in them is shining through instead of their flesh, then the church will have the power, love, wisdom and anointing to make effective warfare and progress in this battle. Until then, we are basically ineffective in dealing with the devils favorite strongholds in the lives of unsaved sinners. When we ourselves cannot resolve our own petty sins between us, how are we the answer to much bigger problems? ~Selah. Judgement will begin at the house of God.

  72. Andrew, have you not noticed that it’s pretty much impossible to quote the Bible and be “politically correct” in your speaking at the same time? I think this “politically correct” speaking is another powerful work of the enemy against Christianity, and it’s coming to the US from the UK, not the other way around. I don’t think anything you wrote is “hateful” to answer your question, but is in conflict with being “politically correct.”
    The move toward “politically correct” speaking is a global one, and must surely be designed to interfere with teaching the Bible, teaching about sin, and the love of Christ for mankind. It’s also part of the whole movement toward global socialism. The only thing I know to do is pray against it, not give in to it in our own individual speaking, and trust that God hears our prayers.

  73. Speaking out about the sin of homosexuality is like shooting doctrinal fish in a barrel. To deny it is a sin is to deny the Word. But to magnify sinners and place them as enemies of the church obscures the gospel and reveals a level of self righteousness and misguided focus.

    And you desire real Biblical boldness as it pertains to “speaking out” againt sin try addressing the billions and billions of dollars believers are saving up in direct disoebdience to the Sermon of the Mount.

    Matt.6: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
    21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

    That hits way too close to home. We better stick with homosexuality.

  74. Anthony Donaghey Aug 31st 2012

    Rick it is not either or ither, it is all sin to be exposed and spoken about,

  75. sseitz Aug 31st 2012

    Andrew, thank you for being unafraid to speak the truth. I agree, there is a war going on for the hearts and minds of our children, all youth. Political correctness has become a weapon against truth and we must guard against it with the Word of God.

  76. KathyG. Aug 31st 2012

    Amen Art!!
    Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.:) Matthew 6:9-13.
    I encourage everyone to get a hold of the Kundalini Warning and True and False Revival books by Andrew Strom.
    There are a few great writers, But Andrew…WOW!! These are the BEST BOOKS I HAVE EVER READ IN MY WHOLE ENTIRE LIFE!! I must share this publicly!! You cannot put them down!!
    Your Boldness just continues coming to me.
    You stand again and again!!!
    Before I ordered the books, I took Andrew Stroms teaching to a family member so that she could introduce this “truth” to her Pastor. I was so excited about this truth being exposed that I wanted to share it.
    Then I asked for confirmation about Andrew and If the Lord would confirm if I did the right thing.
    The next morning this family member called and said, “hey, one of my friends just called me (who attends my Bible Study) and said, “I am reading a book right now by the man of Andrew Strom. Have you ever heard of him?” I told that family member how I was amazed of what just took place these last 12 hours and what I had asked the Lord the night before. Talk about supernatural signs in the book department. :)
    Now, we must be bold and take God’s Word to some of the Leaders of the Church. Talk about stepping out of your “Comfort Zone!!!”
    God tells us in His word to ASK Matt 7:9.
    Jeremiah 33:3 says, Call unto me and I will ANSWER you and show you great and mighty things that you DO NOT KNOW.
    You are a blessing Andrew, The articles you teach are solid. Keep teaching from the word of God!!

  77. Mark / Mark Andrew Aug 31st 2012

    The last posting from “Mark” is from another Mark. To avoid confusion, I shall henceforth call myself “Mark Andrew”, Andrew also being my second name.

  78. When I was 3 I was told to take care of my baby sister(I think she was a prophetess)
    She was hell on wheels for 57 years- the death certificate said Pneumonia.
    I have never told anyone the real cause of death.
    I’m going to trust you all to keep my story, my story until I am healed enough
    To do whatever the Lord wants me to do next.
    I became a licensed marriage and family therapist,one of my professors
    Thought it was my way of turning lemons into lemonade.
    The hurt is intolerable!!!!!!!
    When you have watched your only sibling,over a10 year period, die of aids,
    Then you might understand my situation
    The incredible miracle is that I don’t hate homosexuals
    This has been my job experience
    I’m not thru yet-please don’t give me some pat answer.

  79. Teshuva Aug 31st 2012

    Every time I have roared like the adversary of a lion of accusing anyone to God, He has been just to point out my shortcomings, making me to know that pointing out others sins does not make me a saint. The lighter side of it is that through Him pointing out my own shortcomings I had nothing left to do but take my own self and throw it on the mercy seat that grace abound until my mind was renewed.
    This left me with nothing more than to ASK Him, what shall I pray, what shall I do, and then do as He bids me to do.
    I was left with one final thought, if we sow to the flesh we reap corruption of the flesh, if we sow to the spirit we reap life/incorruption. I seen in my accusations that I was no better than the one whose sin i was pointing out, which left my own garment spotted with the flesh, leaving me with nothing to say but Lord wash me and make me white.

    I was in a restaurant a while back, and there was a young lady with a shirt that read something about her being gay. I said to myself, if you only new the gift of God, you would not be gay that way but another way meaning happy. I waited for the prompting of the Lord, but He had me do nothing. Why, I do not know. perhaps He had someone else dealing with her, and so why should I go against this and increase when it is possible that He had someone else He was using to increase Himself in her.
    Again, i don’t know, but had to understand that He had it in control.

  80. Paul FC Aug 31st 2012

    Andrew, you have stirred up a hornets nest here and you are spot on bro. I too am annoyed that the church has been intimidated to stay silent on the sin of homosexuality. if we speak out then we can expect vilification.The usual accusation is one of homophobia. I have spoken out in an office environment and was met with hostility and that was from the ‘straight’ hetros. Our culture has been brainwashed and this perversion has insidiously found its way into becoming the norm. Let us hold up the standard of the word of God and lovingly correct those in error. Pam UK, you have my admiration, take courage and do not keep silent.

  81. Paul FC Aug 31st 2012

    Sseitz Perfectly put. My daughter is now 15 and one day announced to my horror that she was bisexual. I know she does not understand what that means and has since recanted. However the media is powerfully waging war and making lifestyles such as bi-sexual trendy amongst young women. Please pray that my daughter would not be swayed into this arena of perversion, that the Lord will turn her fully to Himself.

  82. Your right on brother. As long as the church keeps telling themselves that sin is all right in the church, they will attack those in the church that actually take a stand for God and His Word. I deal with many atheists, new-agers, emergents, and so on and it is amazing how many Christians are following the same suit and changing what the Bible says. By the way, this is for you modern English reading translation people. I found out one of the translators of the NIV was openly lesbian adn wanted to do away with the heteropatriarchy. Basically, us men. In some fo the modern English translations, they have taken out the word sodomy and replaced it with “temple prostitute”- those verses don’t even make sense any more. It also doesn’t help that the owner of Fox owns Zondervan now too. Anyhow, there is an attack on the Word of God since Genesis chapter 3 when Satan questioned Eve, “Hath God said?” His attack has been against God’s word from the getgo and will continue to he resides in the Lake of Fire. Let him who has ears hear! Are you listening church?
    Take heed that no man deceive you for they will come in my name saying that, “Yeah, Jesus is the Christ” and many will follow them just because they claim God sent them when He never did. Be sober, be vigilant for your adversary goes about like a lion seeking whom he can devour.We are not automatically protected from deception just because we prayed a prayer or else Jesus was talking nonsense when He told His followers to take heed-He didn’t say this to non-disciples. My sheep no my voice and they follow. Are we listneing to His voice church or are you following another piped piper? We need to quit lifting up some man (and many do-man-worship) adn start to take God at His word again and preach repentance and go ye into all the world. I’m sure God is tired of excuses. We love Him IF (IF) we keep HIs commandments adn that means we can’t compromise. If we love the world, the love of the Father is not in us. Sorry, got preaching a little there.

  83. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    i am so sorry for your personal loss and your personal pain – there are many who have ‘similar life stories’ although not identical….when i read your post something leapt to my mind – something i actually ‘heard’ this morning….i have NO pat answers for you, rick. suffering is an ‘equal opportunity employer’ and there are MANY MANY things in my ‘experience’ that i have ‘struggled’ to make sense of when weighing them with the WORD OF GOD.
    here is what i heard this a.m.

    let the Word of God ‘interpret your experience’, NOT your ‘experience’ the Word of God…..

    i realize that you are speaking out not necessarily against the Word of God but how others are ‘interpreting’ it but i DO sense that your ‘experience’ is DICTATING much of what you are speaking. i hope that doesn’t offend you – i have NO desire to offend you AT ALL.

    in His love

  84. Andrew, you are a true Watchman at the Gate. Thank You.

    All sin is hated by God. In our lifetime walk with our Lord and Savior, He teaches us His Truth. He is always crystal clear. Homosexuality is an abomionation, period. Every sin is man’s biggest enemy…. as we grow and mature in the Lord, we start realizing how ‘weak’ we are without Him. Christians may not agree on every doctrinal stand, neither did Peter and Paul, but we are sure about God’s list of sins that we must conquer(through Him)…. If a Christian does not show Christ’s mercy, he is merely showing carnal mercy. That taints His Word. There are no ‘if and buts’ we cannot change or add to the abhorrance to His listed sins. Our choice, Grow or Stagnate. Thank you again, Andrew, for your Godly courage and sounding the alarm to Christians everywhere.

  85. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    please let me ‘clarify’ – when i say ‘heard’ i do NOT mean a ‘word from the LORD’ – i heard a man of God say it – just wanted to be CLEAR on that.
    sometimes it seems that so many have so many ‘words’ to share on these forums that it almost seems more of a ‘platform’ to speak of their OWN revelations than those of the LORD and His Word – i BELIEVE in ‘prophecies’ and i believe in ‘dreams from the LORD’ and i believe in visions, etc.

    i also believe that we get ‘carried away’ and the reason so many times that these ‘words’ have so little impact is because they are LEGION – please don’t ‘burn me at the stake’ – i’ve lived through a LOT of charismatic insanity and it has made me ‘hyper sensitive’ and SLOW to just ‘receive’ everything that comes down the pike….10 years living in DEEP DECEPTION is long enough, thank you very much. so, i may err on the side of caution…..i think the Word of the LORD is VERY clear as to how HE feels about sin – sin in general and some sin in PARTICULAR – i think there is NO debate about judgment or about how CHRISTIANS should STAND upon HIS Word and with HIS judgments – all these are a ‘no brainer’. we are HIS people – we believe in and do as HE says.

    as far as what was said about Christians ‘laying up treasure’ here on earth and it being just as much sin……of course, it is….but, as has been pointed out repeatedly – sin is sin and the LORD deals with each of US as we grow in Him and He changes us into ‘the image of His dear Son’ – IF we are truly ‘born of God’ that WILL happen and He WILL deal with ‘greed’ and all other such things in His children……these things are NOT the same as STANDING AGAINST A TIDE OF EVIL that is being used to steal and destroy masses of people – at least that’s the way i see it.

  86. I’m going to ask God if I can leave this site!!!!!!
    I told you not to give me a pat answer.
    God is in all our experiences!!!!!!!!

  87. TheDude Aug 31st 2012

    The true “church” was never meant to be an agent of change for society at large. We are wasting our time pointing out sin to a perverse and lost society. I do agree that we need to point out sin to those within the body of Christ.

    Only God can can reveal truth to an unbeliever. We are merely His messengers, not His salesmen.

    Throughout the Bible, these kinds of warnings were always given to God’s people, not to society at large. What good does it do to continually point out the sin in society (e.g. homosexuality)? We know that there exists all sorts of sin in society and that will always remain to be so until our Lord returns.

    Personally, I believe the enemy is using homosexuality, however, he is using to distract believers by getting them to focus on it in society at large. Once we are distracted by social issues we lose track of our commission to go and make disciples. Way too much time and energy is expended fighting these ridiculous battles in our society. Do we forget that satan is the “prince of this world’? Do we forget that God’s kingdom is “not of this world”? Do we forget that our battle is not of “flesh and blood”, but is a spiritual battle?

    Homosexuality, as well as all other types of sinful behavior, will continue to spread. That cannot be stemmed nor stopped. It is inevitable. True believers are the called out ones, the remnant, and we are to gather together encouraging and exhorting one another; all the while spreading the good news of Jesus Christ. Only He can deliver you from the power of sin in your life. That sin can take many forms, including homosexuality, but it doesn’t matter. What does matter is that unless you repent and make Jesus Lord of your life you will continue to be ruled by the power of sin over your daily life.

    It all begins with repenting – turning away from allowing sin to control you and turning to Jesus Christ and saying “Lord, I can’t do this. I am going to let you be the Lord of my life.” Let us pray for those who are controlled by sin and ask that God would use us as His vessels to deliver the message of salvation to a dying world. This message applies equally to all unbelievers, whether you are practicing homosexual sex or some other sinful behavior.

    It is the same message that applies to the outlandish openly gay person as well as the very moral heterosexual that has not allowed Jesus to be the Lord of their life. Yes, we need to continue to preach a message of repentance, but let us not focus on the homosexual to the exclusion of other sinful behavior.

    Can you imagine standing before the bema seat of Christ and He shows us those non-homosexuals who are perishing in hell and they are crying out “Why did you focus so much time and energy on fighting homosexuality? Wasn’t my lost soul just as important? Just because I lived a moral and law-abiding life on earth didn’t make me less important. My moral behavior couldn’t save me. You knew this, yet you ignored me and now I’m doomed to an eternity in hell.”

    Hmmmm. Food for thought.

  88. I suggest that the root cause is that much of the modern church has been dumbded down by certain views that make such passages as the Sermon on the Mount, the very words of Jesus as being no longer applicable to the ‘church’. They are said to be of interest, but not for us. And the teachings of Paul have been distorted and misused so that we are no longer obligated to keep ‘the law’, not recognizing that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Then on this corrupt foundation, Satan has made rapid progress to corrupt a civilization by the use of modern communications. So many have believed what they have seen or been told, and not sought the Lord by whose Spirit we are led into all truth.

  89. Daniel Aug 31st 2012

    AMEN!!!! Thank you Andrew. It is about time someone said that.

    For those who commented on Mr. Strom not having homosexual friends – I would hope not! We are commanded in the Bible to NOT BE FRIENDS with wickedness or wicked people. See I John 2:15-17;II Chron 19:2.
    We are warned that we will become like our friends (Prov 13:20), and to not seek the company of the wicked (Psalm 1).

    I might work in business with a homosexual, but I would not be FRIENDS with an enemy of God (Ps. 5:4-5;11:5)

  90. Mark Andrew Aug 31st 2012

    I believe there is also an issue of homosexuality within the Church. This is hardly surprizing with the existence of the modern, seeker-friendly gospel, which omits any mention of sin and the need for repentance. Of course, this is not limited to the particular sin of homosexuality, but it may explain why one part of the Church throws its arms up in horror when the other part of the Church tries to promote godly principles or even the basic morality of our unsaved grand-parents. Perhaps, judgement must first come to the household of God?

  91. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    that was a ‘pat’ answer?? i’m sorry – i didn’t see it as such. please don’t leave on my account…..i told you i had no desire to ‘offend’ you and i don’t. i actually hate ‘offending’ people but sometimes it is simply unavoidable it seems……

  92. catrise paige Aug 31st 2012

    Amen, brother Andrew. You nailed it. Ecclesiastes 3 tells us there is a time, season and purpose for everything. Had people stayed silent, I would still have to cross the street whenever a white person approached and waited until they passed to resume my trip. Yet this is much more a spiritual issue. If we do not blow the trumpet and warn the people with the truth, no matter the cost, the blood guilt will be on our hands. Well said, brother.

  93. I have a few things to say and they are related, so bear with me please.

    I read a few posts back where someone said that Jesus never spoke on the issue of homosexuality and I notice this is often said by many people on this subject. My response to this is the following;

    The Bible calls itself the Word of God.
    Jesus is called the Word of God.
    One is written, the other living, but they are both the Word of God and therefore anything written in the Bible is something Jesus said, from the declaration “Let there be light!” in Genesis 1, to “Surely I come quickly” in Revelation 22.

    In other words, the Bible reveals God to us by declaration. Jesus did the same while He was on earth. He IS the Word, according to John ch.1, so whenever God has spoken, it is Jesus who is the active voice of God and therefore the whole Bible is Him speaking to us.

    To bring this to the point, when Paul wrote Romans chapter one, it was and is the voice of Jesus Himself that is ‘speaking’ here.

    this brings me to the topic of ‘Christlike’ speech that a few have raised. Having a ministry somewhat similar to Andrew’s, I hear this a lot, so I’ve become very much aware of this red herring and how to deal with it.
    Yes, that’s right, RED HERRING!

    Many people trot this out in smug self-righteousness, but it’s obvious from the way they do, that they themselves are not familiar with the way in which Jesus actually spoke. For example, Jesus never once told a crowd that God loved them, nor did He ever preach that God just wanted to bless them. His first message was; “Repent”, as seen here:-
    “Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Mat 4:17)
    “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” (Mk 1:15)

    Jesus spoke to people about Hell far more times than He spoke about Heaven. He mentioned the judgement of God and how the people should fear it. He pointed to the Law of Moses and told them they could never attain righteousness by trying to keep it. After He fed the five thousand in John ch.6, the people followed Him to the far side of the sea of Galilee and found Him the next day. His first words to them were as follows:-
    “Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.”
    These are the first words in a sermon that so many of them didn’t like, that they left Him, prompting Jesus to ask if the twelve were going to leave Him also (v.67).

    Jesus’ words to Peter in Mat 16:23 & Mk 8:33 are far from ‘loving’ by any standard except the Biblical one and His denunciations of the Pharisees, etc, are so abusive they make you wince, yet they are the words of Jesus Christ, so they are ‘Christlike’. Would folks be happy if Andrew used similar words in order to be more ‘Christlike’?

    The fact is that God’s ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts, but are righteous and true. It’s been siad that there are many sins that are ana bomination to God and this is true enough, but in the whole Bible there is only one sin that is stated to be; ‘against nature’, or ‘unnatural’ (in Romans ch.1) and that is homosexuality.

    This raises another point and that is the idea that people are ‘born this way’, or that their ‘sex-drive’ is just like a person born without legs; a defect, rather than a choice. This cannot be, because God never calls being born blind a sin, nor being lame from birth, nor any other birth defect, yet He denounces homosexuality as a sin against nature. God is totally just and righteous and to say that these people can’t help the way they ‘feel’, or the way their ‘sex-drive’ works, is effectively accusing God of being unjust and unrighteous by ‘labelling’ (another PC term I dislike) homosexuals as:-
    “Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, [30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:” (Romans 1:29-31)

    The whole tenor of Romans ch.1 is that as humanity gets further from God, the more depraved they become, until as a form of judgement, God ‘gives them over’, to become slaves to this behaviour. The passage makes it clear though, that they have CHOSEN to do these things in v.24:-
    “Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:”

    In fact, the Bible tells us here, not only that they have CHOSEN to do these things, but that they have done so IN ORDER TO be as rebellious against God as they can:-
    “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.” (Rom 1:32)

    No-one who steals does so to deliberately set themselves against God. They steal because they want something and take it. The mindset is the same in a certain sense; “Nobody can tell me what I can or can’t do. I am my own god”, however, the Bible makes it clear that in the case of homosexuality, they KNOW that it’s against God and they DELIGHT in that fact.

    This brings me to my last point and it is this; although it has become popular to say and believe that there is no one sin greater than another, the Bible does NOT back this up on the way that most people think. Although in terms of perfection, there is no ‘small’ sin or ‘big’ sin, Jesus words in Mat 5 tell us that there certainly are degrees of sin:-
    “But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matthew 5:22)

    Let me put this in a little parable to show how silly is this idea of ‘Sin is sin and no sin is more, nor less, evil than another’.

    Suppose a young boy steals change from his mother’s purse, so he can buy candy on the way home from choir practice. He goes to choir practice and becomes a victim to the pedophilic tendencies of the choir master. Can you honestly tell me that God looks at those two sins as equal? Because if you can, then you must be reading a different Bible to me.

    Sure, the theft is a sin that needs to be repented of and will keep the boy from entering Heaven, justbthe same as the pederasty, but please don’t tell me that God doesn’t view the second sin as vastly more evil than the first. That would be a travesty of Biblical justice.

    Botom line; there are ‘grades’ of sins. The Bible tells us this in many places, so top this nonsense about homosexuality being ‘a sin like any other’, when the clear testimony of scripture says otherwise.

    Andrew, God bless you for your integrity and courage to speak the truth in TRUE love. Keep it up my friend.

  94. Wayne Haycraft Aug 31st 2012

    In re: your article about homosexuality. I have wrote about this several times on Huffpost and am always asked: God says this is an abomination but does Jesus ever say anything about it in the new testament and I can’t find an answer. Pleas help.

  95. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    alan – concerning your post – I AM LITERALLY DANCING FOR JOY!!!!! hallelujah!!!! the WORD OF THE LORD spoken forth clearly and concisely and my SPIRIT leapt within me!!!!!
    amen and amen and amen and amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    i KNOW this is the Holy Spirit speaking THROUGH you – but THANK YOU for letting HIM !!!

  96. Andrew,

    Thanks for the ‘heads up’ on homosexuality, a timely well written piece.

    Bless you and thanks.

    Carl Emerson.

  97. Tiffany Aug 31st 2012

    Thank you for this article Andrew. What you shared was not hateful at all, I agree that we should not be silent regarding homosexuality nor ANY sin for that matter in these last days, however I believe as “TheDude” wrote that these sins we do need to point out to those WITHIN the body of Christ but to those of the world who do NOT know the Lord as Savior we need to FIRST share the gospel of Jesus Christ to them IN LOVE, share the word of God with Them IN LOVE and then allow the Holy Spirit to water the seed planted. However most Christians do not share in love, instead they speak condemnation and judgment instead of first showing one who’s bound by sin the Love of Christ Jesus. Most people hearts would soften and most would respond better if the message of Jesus Christ is shared to them in Love, hardly anyone would respond to condemnation. There is a way to share the truth and sadly most “professing” believers do NOT share the truth of the word of God in a GODLY manner. You are an exception and I appreciate you true love of the word of God and the church! God bless you Andrew!

    TheDude Wrote: “The true “church” was never meant to be an agent of change for society at large. We are wasting our time pointing out sin to a perverse and lost society. I do agree that we need to point out sin to those within the body of Christ.

    Only God can can reveal truth to an unbeliever. We are merely His messengers, not His salesmen.

    Throughout the Bible, these kinds of warnings were always given to God’s people, not to society at large. What good does it do to continually point out the sin in society (e.g. homosexuality)? We know that there exists all sorts of sin in society and that will always remain to be so until our Lord returns.”

    Thank you!! I agree completely!! God Bless

  98. Nicole Aug 31st 2012

    Here are two articles concerning this situation. Both showing a light of what is going on here in America, but hey, don’t think this is just America. This is WORLD WIDE.

    The First is from THE DAILY JOT/ Bill Wilson
    The Second is from a Christian Post

    Hate speech is a pretty ridiculous concept. It generally has been applied to people, especially preachers, who quote the scriptures in opposition to the basic delights of progressive liberalism–sodomy, homosexual marriage, abortion. Whenever a preacher quotes Leviticus 18:22, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination,” the news media jumps on the hate speech train. It is worse when someone quotes the second part of Leviticus 20:13 that ads: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” Even worse is if a preacher says America is in judgment because of the sins of homosexuality and abortion. But what if a liberal calls for the mass deaths of conservatives?

    Actress Ellen Barkin, who has acted in a slew of box office ho-hums and is now a star in the “New Normal,” a show that promotes homosexuality, recently let loose a tirade on twitter. She tweeted: “Shame on [email protected] not airing @NBCTheNewNormal So L&O SVU (rape & child murder) is ok? But loving gay couple having a baby is inappropriate?” She was responding to an August 25 statement by the parent company of Salt Lake City KSL-TV that due to the show’s “crude dialogue, explicit content and offensive characterizations,” the company decided to “keep it off our fall schedule” because “this program simply feels inappropriate on several dimensions, especially during family viewing time.”

    With hurricane Isaac bearing down on the Republican Party convention in Florida, Barkin lashed out re-tweet of one of her followers: “C’mon #Isaac! Wash every pro-life, anti-education, anti-woman, xenophobic, gay-bashing, racist SOB right into the ocean! #RNC ” According to, Barkin did not express any disagreement in her retweet. LifeSiteNews framed the tweet, writing, “In the aftermath of the Family Research Council shooting, prominent voices on the Left have not tapped down their violent rhetoric against their opponents.” Followers of the news will be hard pressed to find a liberal who denounces this kind of hate speech, saying instead it is free speech.

    It would be a good guess that the shooter at the Family Research Council had heard some pretty inflammatory speech in the days leading up to his attack on the pro-life, pro-marriage organization. He worked for the local radical sodomite advocacy group in Washington, DC. Floyd Lee Corkins II plead not guilty to three counts–assault, and two firearms possession charges. Hmmm…no hate crime? He said at the scene of the crime, “I don’t like your politics.” There seems to be a lot of hate in this world by evidence of many recent shootings. I wonder how much more is stirred up from comments like Barkin’s. You can bet if Corkins or Barkin were Christians saying similar things about the left, the media would be declaring hate speech instead of free speech.

    The owners of a Vermont Bed and Breakfast have agreed to pay $10,000 in fines and another $20,000 in settlement funds surrounding same-sex civil union ceremonies held on their property.

    Jim and Mary O’Reilly own the Wildflower Inn in Lydonville, Vermont, a facility that for many years also hosted weddings.

    In 2000, then Governor Howard Dean signed a bill into law that would grant homosexuals “the same benefits and protections afforded by Vermont law to married opposite-sex couples.” Wildflower Inn, however, had no requests for same-sex ceremonies until five years later when a lesbian couple asked the facility to host their service.

    The O’Reilly’s told the lesbians that they would comply with the law by allowing the use of their facilities, but made clear that they objected to homosexual “marriage” because it was a violation of their religious beliefs.

    The women, being offended at their response, then filed a complaint with the Vermont Human Rights Commission, who stated that the O’Reilly’s had done nothing wrong by simply expressing their disagreement.

    The O’ Reilly’s explained that they continued to receive requests for homosexual ceremonies in the years that followed and acted in the same way. To handle the matters, the inn hired an event coordinator to take care of any incoming requests — for both heterosexual and homosexual couples.

    In 2010, a lesbian couple contacted the event coordinator to schedule a ceremony, but was told that Wildflower Inn does not accommodate homosexuals. She then offered to handle the ceremony herself privately.

    The lesbians, taken aback, then contacted the Human Rights Commission to lodge a complaint. Three months later, the ACLU also chimed in, questioning the event coordinator about the matter.

    At that time, the woman resigned from her position, stating that she was wrong to have responded in the way that she did. Wildflower Inn then also stopped hosting weddings of any kind.

    However, last year, the Vermont Human Rights Commission and the two lesbians then filed a lawsuit against the O’Reilly’s, citing a violation of the state’s Fair Housing and Public Accommodations Act.

    “We did not bring this lawsuit in order to punish the Wildflower Inn or to collect money. We brought this lawsuit because we wanted people to know that what the Wildflower Inn did was illegal,” complainant Kate Linsley stated. “We didn’t want to stay quiet and allow businesses to continue to think they can discriminate.”

    After much wrangling between both sides, this month the O’Reilly’s agreed to pay $10,000 in fines for alleged violations of the law, although the Human Rights Commission and the lesbian couple wrote in the agreement that Wildflower Inn had acted in good faith and were not behaving out of malice. The O’Reilly’s also paid a lump sum of $20,000 to the lesbian couple, which will be used in a charitable trust fund.

    “The Wildflower Inn has always served–and will continue to serve–everyone in our community. But no one can force us to abandon our deeply held beliefs about marriage,” stated owner Jim O’Reilly, a Roman Catholic. “Our beliefs haven’t changed, but we do have lives to live, a family to love, a business to grow, and a community to serve. Small businesses like ours cannot match the limitless resources of the government and the ACLU. Ongoing litigation like this can cripple any small business and the livelihood of its owners, so we’re relieved to put this ordeal behind us.”

    However, attorneys with Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF), the non-profit organization representing the O’Reilly’s, are disturbed that the legal ordeal took place to begin with.

    “Every American should be free to live and do business consistent with their deeply held beliefs,” said ADF Senior Counsel Byron Babione. “It is unfortunate when a state agency teams up with the ACLU to harass and punish a private family business over its owners’ constitutionally protected thoughts and beliefs. Legal attacks like this one are not pursuits for justice, but attempts to coerce and police private expression.”

    “Despite the business’s acknowledged good faith, its assurance that it will follow the law, and the fact that it stopped hosting wedding events three months before the suit began, plaintiffs and the commission demand[ed] that Wildflower pay $10,000 to the commission and $20,000 into a charitable trust set up by plaintiffs,” ADF continued. “It is clear that Wildflower cannot match the limitless resources that the state and ACLU are willing to devote to this attack. The financial risks of continuing the litigation threaten to cripple the business and the family’s livelihood.”

    No further legal action is expected to take place against the O’Reilly’s at this time.

    As previously reported, in June of this year, an appeals court in the state of New Mexico fined a Christian photographer nearly $7,000 for refusing to shoot a same-sex ceremony. The state Human Rights Commission had ruled against the photographer in 2008, declaring that she was guilty of violating the state’s “sexual orientation” discrimination law.

    “The owners of Elane Photography must accept the reasonable regulations and restrictions imposed upon the conduct of their commercial enterprise despite their personal religious beliefs that may conflict with these government interests,” Judge Tim Garcia wrote on behalf of the three-judge panel. “The Klu-Klux-Klan is not a protected class. Sexual orientation, however, is protected.”

  99. a farmer Aug 31st 2012

    Some have brought up the subject of divorce. I believe the connection between divorce and homosexuality is found in the testimony (picture) given by each.

    Marriage that is joined by God between one man and one woman displays the image of God. Regarding this image God said, “Let no man put asunder.” To divorce is to deface the image of God. It breaks the Oneness of marriage which was put in place by God to represent the unbreakable Oneness between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Divorce annuls the whole meaning of Marriage!

    Homosexuality defaces the image of God by replacing it with the image of Satan. For this reason it is very difficult (but not impossible) for a homosexual to be formed into the image of Christ. Some will seek forgiveness, but far fewer will actually go all the way and let God mold them into Christ’s image. It is much easier to change behavior than to change the core “I am-ness.”

  100. Mark Andrew Aug 31st 2012

    To answer, Wayne, it is not recorded that Jesus mentioned homosexuality. I would say that this is because Jesus was sent to the Jews, and homosexuality was not a major issue with them. They already had a basic standard of righteousness – but not one that was sufficient for salvation. The Apostle Paul was sent to the wider Gentile world where, to some extent, homosexuality was an issue, and he does mention it. Even, if Paul had not, the God of the Old Testament remains the same Person as the God of the New Testament, who hates the same things. The difference is the New Covenant of Love – where through Christ – we have the power to repent of all our sins and to live new lives. Praise God!

  101. Anthony Donaghey Aug 31st 2012

    Alan – Brilliant! I just posted your post on my FB page. Shalom.

  102. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    what else is there to say?? this WHOLE discussion started with the question about hurricane isaac moving in on new orleans and MANY saying that it was WRONG to declare it an act of ‘judgment’ from God…….yet, when you hear what ‘ellen barkin’ clamored for, quote:
    “C’mon #Isaac! Wash every pro-life, anti-education, anti-woman, xenophobic, gay-bashing, racist SOB right into the ocean! #RNC ”
    in her GREAT desire for the hurricane to hit florida – you REALLY REALLY do have to stop and ponder………..

    just makes you wonder, you know?? the LORD is so merciful and so patient – but don’t you think that sometimes HE just gets a little ‘tired’ of their fists shaking in HIS face??? NOT just struggling with sin or even ‘without a care’ living in sin – ignorant of God’s truth and HIS ways – but NOT ignorant and BLATANTLY throwing their sin in HIS face………….hmmmmmmm – makes you wonder…

  103. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    thank you for posting the articles, nicole!!

    very good insight, mark andrew. yes, amen.

  104. Shelley Aug 31st 2012

    My husband had a dream several years back where Jesus took him up into the air above the earth and the Lord showed him what it would be like in the end times, the Lord showed him that sin would become very terrible and that people will think that you are strange if you do not molest your children, they will say to you, “why aren’t you teaching them about sex, how will they know what to do when they grow up.” Those who protect the innocence of their children will be thought of being terrible and abusive and robing their children of this “important” lesson. After the dream my husband was very disturbed over it and thought, “Oh Lord this can’t be true!” However even now there are groups of people who are trying to make it legal to have sexual relations with children. We are indeed in the end times and as for believers we need to be serous with the Lord and have NO compromise in our lives whatsoever, to come out of Babylon or we will share in it’s judgments. We need to wake up and even expose the wickdness for what it really is as the Word of God commands us, although shameful as the sin is we can not sit idly by and turn a blind eye for the sake of those who might repent and turn to the Lord and for the sake of God’s HOLY NAME! We are His ambassadors and we must represent Him in a pure and right way. amen

    Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

    Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
    Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
    Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
    Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
    Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
    Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
    Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
    Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

    We are called to be the salt and light of the world, but what good is salt that has become tasteless, we must have no compromise with the world and it’s ways, but be set apart unto the Lord as a pure vessel for His good use, that He might receive glory through the conduct of our lives. amen

  105. Traveler Aug 31st 2012

    The last verse is the one of interest but the passage speaks to the situation we are in now.

    Isa 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
    Isa 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
    Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
    Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
    Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

    The promise of no weapon being formed against us being able to prosper comes with the condition that the Children are taught of the Lord.

    We are in a situation where we are failing the requirements for receiving that promise. And make no mistake the promotion of sodomy is a weapon that has been formed to come against the saints. The gays themselves are just pawns being used for a greater purpose by Satan so we need to identify just who the real enemy is. Satan.

    Keep in mind Sodomy is associated with witchcraft which is itself associated with violence.

    I believe it is quite possible that we are approaching the time for these events to be fulfilled
    Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
    Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, [b]nor the desire of women, nor regard any god:[/b] for he shall magnify himself above all.
    Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

  106. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    ahhh – the WORD OF GOD…..’priceless’…….isn’t it like a ‘breath of fresh air – LIVING air???? amen.

    thank you, shelley

  107. Traveler Aug 31st 2012

    The last verse is the one of interest but the passage speaks to the situation we are in now.

    Isa 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
    Isa 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
    Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
    Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
    Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

    The promise of no weapon being formed against us being able to prosper comes with the condition that the Children are taught of the Lord.

    We are in a situation where we are failing the requirements for receiving that promise. And make no mistake the promotion of sodomy is a weapon that has been formed to come against the saints. The gays themselves are just pawns being used for a greater purpose by Satan so we need to identify just who the real enemy is. Satan.

    Keep in mind Sodomy is associated with witchcraft which is itself associated with violence.

    I believe it is quite possible that we are approaching the time for these events to be fulfilled

    Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
    Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
    Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

  108. Brother Amartey Aug 31st 2012

    This is a right message at the right time ! The church we have today are dead churches with dead preachers who are afraid to speak up. Rather they tell deluded people not to judge anyone, and many Christians have lost their sense of judgement, and don’t even know whether to speak up or shut up. However, we need not focus only on homosexuality but all sins in general. And yes, Andrew, I agree with you that they’re preaching homosexuality as acceptable behaviour and want to push it down our throats but it won’t happen. We reject homosexuality and all sexual sins for that matter !

  109. This site gives part of the recent history of the legal acceptance of homosexuality in NZ. In 1985/6 a petition opposing this ‘reform’ was presented to Parliament, and ignored. The petition included up to 800,000 signatures, from a population (then) of less than 4 million.

    Yes, there were claims of duplicate and counterfeit, signatures, and so the petition was rejected.

    In the last 2 weeks, a petition of nearly 50,000 signatures has been presented to parliament, opposing the ‘same sex’ marriage bill, (which at its first reading was passed.) This site offers anyone (in NZ) who opposes the bill, the opportunity to sign the petition, email MP’s, or just be informed. I believe that Australia has a similar petition..?


    My reason for posting these figures is to show that even though NZ population has increased since 1985, it would seem that far less people are willing to speak out. Maybe that is the same in other countries..?

    I agree that only God can reveal His truth to unbelievers, only the Holy Spirit can convict anyone of their sin, and the need to repent before the living God. Only He will reveal the truth that Jesus is the Messiah of God and risen Lord of all His creation.

    Does that mean that we should stop ‘speaking out’ against anything that is not of God..?

    If we are truly His messengers, the ones whom He uses to shine His light into the darkness around us – then we do need to continue sharing that message to all, saved and unsaved.

    We are to speak out as led by Lord Jesus, that He may use those words (as seeds) to be sown in the hearts that He has prepared to receive.

    In His love,

  110. debonnaire Aug 31st 2012

    Thank you Andrew.
    Very timely.
    Just today , on a French forum , i was just called by “Christians” , as having a huge beam in my eye , for calling homosexuality for what it is. I did not judge anyone , yet ‘Don’t judge’ is the favourite expression of the day.

  111. Yes!! If those who are looked upon as leaders in the body aren’t willing to take a stand for biblical truth then who will?? The church is looking for those that will speak out with a clear voice and say, according to God’s word, this is wrong!
    Thank you for having the courage to speak out in this season with boldness, with clarity and most of all with love and concern for those who follow and those yet to come!
    God bless you!

  112. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    traveler and brother amartley and roger – AMEN!!! i wish there was a ‘like’ button under the posts as on fb so i could LIKE them without necessarily ‘posting’ :-) it just gives me such JOY when i see the TRUTH laid out in such a clear way – BLESS THE LORD, OH MY SOUL, AND ALL THAT IS WITHIN ME, BLESS HIS HOLY NAME!!

  113. not a surprise at all ! this practise is being accepted by so many people …and a lot of churches ,so some persons probibly don’t even consider it a sin anymore . couple this up with pressure for acceptance from the feds, school teachers ,society etc. is is thought of an alternative lifestyle…that’s all ! IF you have ever talked to a gay person you will find out that many are not the happy happy people that the media wants you to believe. many of these people are fighting this demon daily… because they know it is wrong, but being stuck with the wrong crowd , getting out is not easy for them!

  114. John (the Baptist) Aug 31st 2012

    Due to being stuck with religious activity in my local church, I was encouraged by Rev Arthur Blessit to get off my backside and for christians to get out of their pews at church, to go and tell people about the Lord Jesus and how they can be saved through repentance and His amazing Grace. Yes, that word again called REPENTANCE.
    This message was given again by Rev Frank Roosa, half Blackfoot red indian of Link Up for Jesus who had worked with Arthur Blessitt before coming to the UK.
    Frank came to Romford to address the churches and challenged to GO YE. Praise the Lord many responded. So did I.
    We were armed with Gospel tracks, Jesus stickers, gave testimonies, sang gospel songs, and prayed for those needing prayer.
    We went into pubs, coffee bars, public places, nearby seaside resorts where the mods and rockers hanged out and fought each other, met prostitutes who were touting for business, and into local churches
    This was done prayerfully and was Holy Ghost led for the harvest which was to be gathered in.Praise the Lord for the harvest!
    It is so sad that today that the church has decommissioned itself. Men and woman, and the youth attending church, all called christians, are not being encouraged to do anything like this because it is considered old fashioned and obsolete. I am sorry to have to say church leadership expect people to go to church and be entertained on what is on offer whether this to be signs and wonders, hearing erronous teachings and false prophecies, and entertainment called christian rock music.
    My,my, things have changed.
    So what does the modern western christian church of the 21st century expect? One is to become prosperous. Two is playing about with spiritual pheneomenon which is said to be of the Holy Spirit. Number three is having your own vision (nothing to do with God) of creating types of churches and making them part of mega church empires. Four is dealing what is sinful yet themselves are in sin. And of course dealing with topical topics such as homosexuality but failing or ministering to those who are being told that they are “gay” and to be proud of it.
    What a dreadful state the western church is in? And it is going from bad to worse due to not admitting that it needs to repent and return to basics, and not playing host of “catching the fire” or promoting a world wide revival which does not exist.
    What had been kept secret is that the christain church of this century is in self denial of REPENTANCE, that word which has become offensive to many, and wants to concentrate on other things other than “what you have to do to be saved.” Such secret matters are coming to the forefront and of importance now that the people of planet earth have come to realise what is going on and surfacing, is that man no longer can govern without corruption, deceit, profiteering at the expense of others, using their authority for their own means, lying to hide their collaborations, and using illegal methods to keep their status quo. Hmmm… just what goes on in the church system! And most people are saying which has been recorded in the media “we are living in the End Times.”
    With the homosexual and lesbian organisations getting a stranglehold on society and influencing governments and those in authority to get them to OK that homosexuality is normal and not offensive to God who believe in Him, it is no wonder the church remains silent on such issues, too afraid to say so.
    Well, God Almighty will not be mocked, hence His judgement upon nations. He is allowing these things to happen before our very eyes as His warning is not only to nations, but to everyone in the church where these shenanigans taking place.
    No doubt about it, whether we accept this or not, He is God our Creator and He has given His instructions in the Bible whether we disagree or obey.
    But we still continue to argure with Him because we know best! And we argue amongst ourselves playing tennis with scripture.
    This is what I will say, and say this in love.
    Please stop playing the monopoly game of RELIGION. Kindly read the Bible for yourselves and act upon the COMMISSION which has been given to you.
    And if you are around, going through the Great Tribulation, kindly reflect what will happen to you when you say that you have power over Satan. The world leader (the Anti Christ) and his henchman called the False Prophet will laugh at you when you are called to account for yourself. You will either refuse the Mark of the Beast or receive it. You will be given the choice of retracting your rebuke over Satan or having your head removed.
    Come on brethren! Do we go back to basics or face the consequences of what is going on in the modern church where judgement has begun. To say that there is no judgement, is a fallacy and a lie.To deny judgement which is declared in scripture, will lead to further error.
    To say also signs of His judgement is not upon nations who are are in rebellion against our Creator, is misleading and is a lie.
    With these comments I am likely to be disfellowshipped and sent to Coventry for what I have shared.
    This practice is done by the Watchtower Society and the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints. Plymouth Brethren do this as well.
    Will this be done by the leadership of my established church?
    Rest assured, I will not be excommunicated from the Body of Christ. For this lies with the Lord Jesus Christ.
    To those who say that HOMOSEXUALITY is not important enough to discsuss and with the excuse that it will put off the gay community coming to church, this is misleading. and incorrect. For we do have a christian group called the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement.
    See link
    Notice the word “christian” in their title. It suports homosexuality as a normal christian lifestyle. It supports same sex marriages to be conducted by the christian church. But its theology is not sound compared with the Word of God. Its practices are unbiblical.
    See what the journal which supports homosexuality has to say about another group calling itself christian. The link is
    This reveals so much that is going on within the church system which has become acceptable using modern day western thought.
    May I repeat what Andrew Strom and other brethren have already said…
    If those who say NO then they are in deception whatever their explanations are given. But then like with Adam and Eve, they know best which led to their fall.

    Blessings in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom, who is coming soon for His Bride.
    May I acclaim LOUDLY which christians once used to greet each other when witnessing for Jesus…MARANATHA!

  115. I am not homosexual, nor was my sister.
    All but one of the gays I’ve counseled we’re molested by the same sex
    at a very early age(victims)
    There’s no chance they are going to get healed on this Religious site of Job’s counselors-It’s a spirit people- cast it out in the name of Jesus.
    If you just keep flattering each other, you might have to do battle witha Pharisical
    spirit-it’s worse than most-it killed God
    This will be my last post

  116. Bruce Mackay Aug 31st 2012

    While I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say, I think if our message is going to have any credibility & heard by the world (or the church for that matter) we need to spend more time intelligently equipping ourselves to articulate why homosexuality is wrong. After all God is not a spoil sport trying to take the fun out of life. There are good reasons why it is wrong. This takes more effort & thought, but will pay greater dividends than simply the Church saying it is wrong end of story.

  117. If we know the true living God, we know that He doesn’t create anyone with homosexual desires.

    We also know that homosexual desires are a spiritual affliction that people can be delivered ( set free ) from .

    So if we as followers of the one true living God, not only show that people are not born or created homosexual , and that Lord Jesus Christ can and will set them free from these desires, then we are presenting the full truth, and not leaving people in a place where they say we have simply condemned them.

    What people choose to do with this truth is then between them and God.

  118. I think the devil uses the media to coax homosexuals out into the public arena to see if Christians will devour them. Quite often, we do. And those of us who aren’t silent but try to help young people see the truth and the true compassion of the Truth, as He gives opportunity, first must overcome the perception that God, and good Christians, don’t hate them. It is The barrier to their coming to Christ.

    If mercy is better than judgment, and we are not to judge outside the church, I would say that choosing the disaster of a hurricane to rant about homosexuality because of ‘dates’ could be construed by some as the oppurtunistic

  119. Amen Rick-Stanwood and Kevin :-)

    – these are spiritual afflictions that people can be set free from.

  120. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    rick – if we APPROVE of the words spoken BECAUSE they are truly HIS Words – are we ‘flattering’ men??

    this isn’t a ‘ministry’ site, per se, brother…it is a forum for believers to discuss certain things and HOPEFULLY encourage one another in the TRUTH… ‘wrestle’ with things, if need be and come to a TRUE and scripturally valid conclusion…..not simply their ‘personal opinions’….or even primarily their personal ‘experiences’ – it’s about what the Word of God truly says and MEANS.

    i hope in your ‘ministry’ to these bound in homosexuality that you are able to TRULY help them to get free of this bondage – i surely do. the things that have been done by human beings to others – especially to children – are absolutely horrific – but GOD is still the healer and there is NOTHING HE CANNOT HEAL – as long as we are told and BELIEVE the truth, instead of a lie……..

    God bless you – goodbye

  121. Geoffrey Aug 31st 2012

    I have been greatly encourage by believers and their comments. Thanks Andrew for speaking out and John (the Baptist) for his contribution and the links provided.
    Yes, I am living in the Last Days and telling others about Christ before the Rapture then the Great Tribulation which believers have shared with me. I am excited to be with the Lord Jesus, want to meet the Old Testament Prophets, His disciples, and the Apostle Paul. There is one question I will be asking Enoch. That is between him and myself.

  122. I both agree with your post…and at the same time…disagree with your post. Homosexuality is a sin that is rampant in the world. This is the judgement of God on a people who reject Him.

    Rom 1:24 Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves;
    Rom 1:25 who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.
    Rom 1:26 Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for even their females did change the natural use into that against nature;
    Rom 1:27 and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving.
    Rom 1:28 And, (here’s the thrust of the topic) according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;

    This world is not retaining the knowledge of God.
    End of story.
    Since they don’t want to remember God – God Himself has given them over to homosexuality. God is dictating the terms of this curse and not Satan.

    We the Christians have failed because the world as a whole pulls away from God.

    Let’s stop blaming Satan for our desire to sit on the couch and eat potato chips and watch the ballgame INSTEAD OF serving our world as Christians should have been doing all along. We are the ones who failed.

    On our watch the world has turned it’s back on God and we sat on the couch as those corrupt people turned the world into Sodom and Gomorrah. Now we stand around blaming Satan instead of ourselves.

    The plain truth is…if we were doing our jobs right our world would be a better place. Our youth would not be homosexuals. War would not be rampant, drugs, prostitution. It’s always someone else’s job or responsibility or fault…never ours.

    To end homosexuality you will have to end the worlds desire from pulling away from God. Christians from this point forward have to have faith that God will reserve good people to Himself just as in Elijah’s time.

    I don’t want anyone to think that I am saying we shouldn’t work to save our youth.

    I am saying that those already converted or those who will convert to homosexuality in the future are the ones already turned from God and do not retain the knowledge of Him. We as Christians have no power to force someone to hold on to God and the knowledge of Him.

    A revival of truth and love for God is the answer. That is the only way we can purge ourselves from this curse. You won’t find repentance with those who corrupt themselves in the flesh. The homosexuals and ALL their supporters already reject God and are corrupt.

    You and me have to start with the rest of the world if you will change the tide. Get off the couch and go to work…I am.

    Thanks for listening.

  123. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    could someone please explain to me how ‘we’ devour homosexuals?? who here has or has plans to do so???? i’m sure there are some ‘horror stories’ out there about ‘churches’ doing so but i have NEVER seen it.
    it is the same story of how the ‘church’ doesn’t welcome the ‘less thans’ – i wonder where ya’ll go to ‘church’ if this is your experience – i have been a believer in regular fellowship for 37 years and have NOT seen such among those that i KNEW were INDEED Christians……….

  124. I think the devil uses the media to coax homosexuals out into the public arena to see if Christians will devour them. Quite often, we do. And those of us who aren’t silent but try to help young people see the truth and the true compassion of the Truth, as He gives opportunity, first must overcome the perception that God, and good Christians, don’t hate them. It is The barrier to their coming to Christ.

    If mercy is better than judgment, and we are not to judge outside the church, I would say that choosing the disaster of a hurricane to rant about homosexuality because of ‘dates’ could be construed by some as the opportunistic and insensitive judgment of someone bordering on being a numerologist rather than a thoughtful and kindly Samaritan.

    Whether by word, sword or sickle, it seems a bit close to the discerning work meant for angels at the end. Of my family and friends who are being affected by Isaac, most are Christians. Of those being hit hardest, it is, as always, the poor.

    Is this God’s judgment? If I don’t KNOW, so I wouldn’t say. But mercy is always appreciated, especially by the poor and the homosexuals. Being insensitive isn’t the same as being sincere.

  125. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    i am sorry about your family and friends, craig…..will not the LORD help them, since they are HIS children?? none of us know for sure if it is or isn’t a judgment of GOD – but when GOD was ‘judging egypt’ HE protected His own…..did He not?? israel suffered much in their bondage but when it was JUDGMENT being inacted against egypt, did not the LORD protect all in the land of goshen??
    can He not STILL do this?
    simply pondering on what you have said….

  126. Rick-Stanwood, you have it right, homosexuality is a demon spirit of perversion. There can be a doorway even in the womb for this spirit to enter and that is why many believe they are born that way.
    The church has no spiritual eyes to understand these things much less deal with them.
    To just “resist” the homosexual urge is far below being delivered from the spirit of it through Jesus Christ. So the real problem is the weak powerless form of Christianity we have today. We have no real answer for this perversion because the church has no understanding of its enemy nor the power of God. People are perishing for lack of knowledge.

  127. Great post Jamie

  128. May God bless you Andrew for your faithfulness to speak the truth he is telling you to speak. Don’t be discouraged brother. Keep speaking the truth in love. The church is just waking up from a long slumber and she is grumpy and unaccustomed to raw truth.
    The gospel will prevail against every lie. Keep doing what you know you have to do regardless of the abuse it brings on you. There are those of us who will Stan with you and bleed with you as you hemorrhage for truths sake.
    God bless my fiend in Christ!

  129. Saw a comment earlier about people being born with gay tendencies. I think it’s purely demonic, as far as even possession. I was very gay when I was 5-11 years old. I have no idea why other than demonic possibilities. I eventually grew out if it and got married. Now I serve the Lord. Sometimes I can still feel that tendency try to rise up, but I just resist satan and rebuke him.

  130. I was raised by an “old school” gay couple (in other words, they were discreet and I never even knew they were gay until I grew up and moved out…I thought they were best friends!), but I knew they had a lot of gay friends, but not exclusively. The point being, in their heart of hearts, THEY ALREADY KNOW THEY ARE IN SIN, they really don’t need anyone to tell them. Their main issue is that they have REJECTED THEMSELVES at their core level usually because of trauma, unless they were born with the spirit on them. Their pervasive sense of self is SHAME BASED, so piling on more shame is not the answer. Let us not forget John 3:17: “For Jesus came not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” The one thing these gay individuals HAVE NEVER experienced is UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. Is not the Holy Spirit the one Who convicts of sin? We don’t need to clean the fish before we catch them, sanctification is the job of the Holy Spirit as Father is the Author and Finisher. Our job is to show them unconditional love, for it is the GOODNESS of God that draws people to repentance, according to scripture. Our other job is to have such an intimate and real relationship with Jesus that we CARRY the Presence of God, Who Himself will convict of sin at the PERFECT TIME, but let us remember, it is not telling people that they are in sin that breaks the yoke of bondage…IT IS THE ANOINTING THE BREAKS THE YOKE. If we are not anointed by Father and we are pointing out sin, WE ARE MISSING THE BOAT. So much of our Christian efforts are born out of dead works of the soulish man when we are charged by God TO BE LED OF THE HOLY SPIRIT in order to qualify for sonship. Some we save by fire, some by mercy, according to Jude, only the Holy Spirit knows what each individual needs, but as one who knows, I can tell you gay people need the LOVE OF GOD and the POWER OF GOD to deliver, they cannot be talked into the kingdom. 1Co 2:4,5 ” And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.”

  131. Desert Rose Aug 31st 2012

    When it comes to gays I believe we have to be very sensitive,…… I know of a mother who recently came to the church and God was touching her life powerfully, her daughter is gay and she wanted to bring her to church so she could get help… Her mother was so worried about what the christians would think of her daughter being gay and opened up to me about her being molested by her step dad but she believed that God would do something special in her life because she was getting so touched! I told her to bring her daughter, that we are not here to judge her but to help her and to make a long story short she brought her and I went down to the alter to pray for her, the Lord was starting to touch her life and the next service the Pastor was blasting gays off the pulpit and I never seen any of this family again, my heart was broken…. Yes we need to preach against homosexuality but my goodness give these people a chance to put thier foot in the door!!!!

  132. Jesus888 Aug 31st 2012

    It is most interesting to read in Daniel Chapter 11:37, A description of the antichrist reveals that “he has no regard for the desire of women” so when we read in the epistle of John the spirit of antichrist is at work in the world already, it is no wonder that its sexual characteristic has no regard for the desire of women.

    You may want to read the several translations to get an accurate revelation of this verse.

  133. Lori Radabah Aug 31st 2012

    This is what I believe the Holy Spirit showed me. Fraking- the breaking apart of bedrock. This is what evil is doing to the United States. Going to the bedrock of this country and destroying everything that is good: the Constitution, personal responsibility , morals, our Congress, ect.. This is also what evil is doing to Christianity: destroying the message of the Gospel, sin, the family, ect. They are going to the bedrock and trying to blow it apart, ruin this country and its faith.

  134. If anything, believers in Christ need to lead out in repenting for their own sexual sin first. Compromise in this area is rampant in church circles via what we willfully take in through our eyes and ears, where we let our minds go, and what we do in practice. This includes the past and the present.

    Confess your sins one to another and pray for each other that you may be healed. Be holy as He is holy.

  135. It is not hateful to WARN people that they are in sin and in danger of judgment and hell. When a family member of mine is in trouble and doing things they should not, I warn and intercede, warn and intercede, warn and intercede. THIS is true love … but this love is not known, or accepted any longer, in the Church.

    I was in a discussion with a friend who had two cross-dressers in his church and who were openly telling how they were in the middle of going thru the operation(s) to become females. What a discussion I had with my friend, who actually telephoned his pastor and got the pastor in on the conversation. Of course, I was wrong in my “opinion” that these two shouldn’t even be allowed in the church according to 1 & 2 Corinthians, as they were confusing and “leavening” the entire congregation. But the Pastor was already obviously confusing his congregants with his stand that the church is to “lovingly embrace all people so that they can be saved”. (PS: They will NOT be saved, if they are allowed to sit comfortably in church in their sin. Conversion = Salvation.)

    Then there was the discussion I had with a lady in my own church, which ended with her literally yelling at me that I was “judgmental and legalistic” and that “of course one can be gay and saved” because we are all sinners!

    The church is full of mixture, full of sin, full of confusion. The church has replaced Truth and Holiness with compromise and entertainment “and (God’s) people love it this way” (Jer 5:31)

    The entire World WILL be deceived into embracing and allowing open homosexuality in the End. This is a Sign that we are nearer to the End of this Age of Grace, for even Israel, where our “Lord was crucified” will “figuratively (be) called Sodom” – Revelation 11:8

    It is a sad time that we are in and this time really needs people who will LOVE and uphold God’s Word as literal Truth, while being bold enough to preach the Truth in love to all who are on that wide pathway which is leading them into eternal hell.

    Wisdom and grace to all who will preach the Truth for God – Lee.

    “The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and My people love it this way” – Jer 5:31

  136. Great comment Ezriel! I totaly agree.

    What did Jesus tell His apostles to do when He was resurrected?

    Matthew 28:18-20

    “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.”

    Mark 16:14-16

    “Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

    I don’t see Jesus telling His apostles to go out and preach against ‘sin’ or single out one sin such as homosexuality and speak out about it.

    What did Peter preach to the Jews assembled on the day of Pentecost?

    Acts 2:22-24

    “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.”

    Did Peter single out any individual sin? Nope, He preached Christ Jesus and Him crucified.

    Acts 2:36-38

    “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

    So what was it that cut the hearts of the people who heard the message Peter preached? Christ Jesus and Him crucified!

    The battle is not ours, it’s the Lord’s, and the victory over sin has already been won. Jesus calls His ministers to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God and He empowers them by His Spirit to do His ministry works, like healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, etc…. That’s why this present day ‘church’ has no power because they have stopped preaching JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED!

    1 Cor. 1:23-24

    “but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

    Romans 1:16

    “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.”

    Homosexuals, fornicators, adulterers, thieves, murderers, and the like need to hear the GOOD NEWS of the kingdom and how God sent His one and only begotten Son to pay the penalty for their sins on the cross of Calvary, so that they can have ALL their sins forgiven and be reconciled back to Him.

    Romans 6:23

    “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    What breaks the strongholds of sin in every persons life is the power of Christ and the Spirit of God, so let’s get back to the power and wisdom of God, JESUS!

  137. David Watkins Barlow Aug 31st 2012

    I have read Andrews article again, and Romans Ch.1., and many of the posts. I heartily agree with Andrew because what he says is so Bible based. We must love the people, but hate the sin. The Lord Jesus came to ‘set the captive free.’ It is He who will have the final answer – no matter what we believe!

  138. As a mum of a 14 year old daughter I’m distressed at what I’m seeing in her generation in regard to the gender confusion that is surrounding people her age and the temptation to experiment sexually. You can always tell the spirit behind things by its fruit. It does have the hallmark of satan all over it. It’s clear from the Word it’s not Godly and that’s our uncompromising yardstick.

    However the way it’s been handled in the church leaves homosexuals feeling they are almost beyond redemption. This is where we need wisdom. Abortion and homosexuality have been at the forefront of condemnation by the church. Let’s have a look at another scripture. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer. I don’t hear that being addressed very often. It’s possible that well meaning Christians come across as self righteous when addressing these issues. Is there a speck in our own eye? We need to remember that our righteousness is as filthy rags before God and to speak the truth in love. We are all in the same boat as far as righteous goes.

    In my opinion what is currently going on is an onslaught against our young people by the devil and his cohort. Please, please, please, recognise this and pray, pray, pray. The prayer of a righteous man avails much. We are righteous only through Christ. We can change the course of this generation. Who will pick up this baton? Andrew, you are a person of influence – can you organise readers to join together and agree in prayer to bind this spirit?

    In His love

  139. RichardC Aug 31st 2012

    Andrew, thank you for your stand for truth regardless of the onslaught of name calling and opposition from Christians and non-christians. We (brethren) need to refrain from finger pointing and judgmentalism demonstrated with hatred, condemnation and brimstone. Instead our message should be covered in love and compassion. Let us save our fiery tirades for the devil if there is a need for such passionate expression, but hateful messages will repel instead of attrack those who desperately need to know of Christ’s love. Thanks again , my brother, for your witness in this culturally sensitive topic.

  140. Jordan Shepherd Aug 31st 2012

    Andrew, well written. Homosexuality is a satanic agenda. We must pray for those taken captive by it. Many have been delivered from it (

    We need to be filled with the Spirit and wisdom each day, to speak truth in love. A form of godliness and denying the power results in compromise and deception.

    Our young people have been taken in by it. I interview young people on the street and not one person yet has said homosexuality is wrong – including youth from so called Christian schools (Australia), they too have been duped. Fear of man and lack of fear of God, reigns.

    One time at Macdonalds restaurant, I casually interviewed a big truckie decorated with tattoos. He was reserved at first, shying away from stating his view publicly. Then, he opened up. His words told me that he was far from Christian. He was against homosexuality but called Christians cowards for not standing up on issues. I explained to him what real Christians and real preachers should do and what a real Church should look like. He finished by saying, “If you build a Church like that, I’m there.”

    Their righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, our righteousness however does come from God, through Christ – Are we abiding in Him? Civilisation is breaking down, global agenda is alive and well, the stage is being set – the dawn of end times is upon us.

  141. In His Glory Aug 31st 2012

    I agree Andrew. We’ll see which Christians are not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ & God’s Word including His revealed Character of such matters.

  142. a farmer Aug 31st 2012

    There is a trap for the conscientious believer to avoid which has to do with fulfilling the commandment to Love v.s. making a person FEEL loved. Tough love doesn’t always FEEL like love. God said, “Those I love I discipline….All discipline for the moment is NOT joyful, but sorrowful.” (Heb. 12)

    We are not to take on the responsibility to make the homosexual FEEL loved. Just love. One given over to depravity is easily offended. May I say, they are predisposed to be offended by Christians because of their moral stand. It is a ruse of Satan to get the Christian to question the very Love they are showing on the grounds that the sinner does not FEEL loved.

    In my experience with homosexuals, it was the fear of God that brought change.

  143. Jordan Shepherd Aug 31st 2012

    Oh, forgot to say this. Over here in Australia it was recently announced that commercials would be aired on Australian TV to educate people on the wrongness of homophobia. I am not supporting homophobia, but this strategy is only serving to subtly endorse homosexuality and ostracise those (Christians) who oppose this ungodly lifestyle. You would think that the money would be spent on a genuine problem – the widespread and disturbing trend of domestic violence. Instead of encouraging people to speak out on violence against the oppressed, we are encouraging people to exercise silence and tolerance toward moral depravity. Oppression wins out both times! Let us decide and continue to be salt of the earth and light of the world!!

  144. Ibelieve Aug 31st 2012

    I agree with your article Andrew and do not think it was being hateful.

    In Jude we read:

    6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    One of the two witnesses in Revelations will come and bring judgement, one of these men is believed to be Enoch.

    Here is what (Enoch) had to say:

    14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

    Speaking the truth is the Love of God.

    Lord Bless,

  145. L. Alex Smith Aug 31st 2012

    When the Bible says, “Friendship with the world is emnity with God.” it does not mean, “Being friends with someone who is unsaved makes you an enemy with God.” It means, “Friendship and alliance with the world-system, the system of fallen man, where you harmonise with and imbibe worldly ways–THAT’S emnity with God.” John outlines wordliness where he says “The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.” The desire (lust) not just sexually, but Covetousness–wanting that which is not yours to have. Seeing something, that is NOT yours to have, and wanting it…the “lust” or desire of the eyes. However, a large part of this is sexual…often fornication and adultery is listed with covetousness, because that woman or man is NOT yours to have– only your lawfully-wedded spouse is. And covetousness is linked to Idolatry, which is placing Anything over your devotion and love to God. The lust of the flesh, the desires that feed the Flesh, or the Old Man; “If you sow to the flesh, you shall reap corruption.” Food? Yes, if you are using it as a comfort drug, for example, instead of Jesus being your Comforter. The Pride of Life…. too many Christians do this ALL THE TIME. Here in bonnie Scotland there are many beautiful old houses, some quite grand. I love the architecture– when my wife and I are out driving, we see it… but it’s always tainted with, “this was built to Show Off how wealthy or important the owner was.” I’ve always dreamt of living in a Scottish Baronial/Gothic Revival mansion. NOW, I have laid aside these dreams saying, “Not at the risk of immersing in Pride, only if the Lord can purge me of any trace of that.” There is nothing wrong with liking architecture that one finds aesthetically pleasing. But to like it because it makes you “feel like somebody” i.e. “I feel like a Laird”– that would be The Pride of Life… Wordliness…emnity with God. “God so loved the world” means He loves the people in it, not their sin. THAT He can not excuse. Being friends with an unsaved person, homosexual or not, does not mean that you will join them in their sinful behaviour. If you stand firm in the righteousness of the Lord, they will eventually drift away from you (from Him in you) or will eventually be broken down by it.

  146. Val sm Aug 31st 2012

    Right on, Andrew….

  147. So many voices.

  148. Luke 24:46-49

    “Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things. Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

  149. L. Alex Smith Aug 31st 2012

    BTW, it was only the EARLY Nazi party that was homosexual, the Brown Shirts, called the “Sturm Abteilung” (literally, the Storm Compartment, usually called the Storm Troopers). The S.A. under Ernst Roehm was eventually dissolved and absorbed into the S.S. (the Stutz Staffel). Among the 6 million Jews killed in the concentration camps, there were about 8 million Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, gypsies, HOMOSEXUALS, and other “unfit” people such as handicapped, elderly, etc. The homosexuals had to wear pink triangles, whereas the Jews had to wear yellow Stars of David. Up the chimney with the lot. Did Christians in Germany at that time stand up for any of these? We laud those who like Corrie Ten Boom in Holland, stood up for the Jews…yet these sinners were loved by God, as He loved the Jews who had rejected Yeshua as Messiah…. Or did they quietly rejoice that now the nation was being rid of the filth and riff-raff of civilised society?

  150. I have quite a few homosexual friends and have spoken with all of them about the Bible teachings on homosexuality. What I have discovered is if you just meet a person and tell them they will go to hell if they continue in their life style, they will tell you to, “Go to hell.” I feel strongly that my witness is most effective when I have a relationship. God sets up divine appointments. I have also discovered that I do not have to convict anyone of sin – the Holy Spirit will do that–I do not have to judge them – Jesus will do that – what I HAVE to do is show them the Word of God in love and avoid giving them my opinion. What I think really does not matter -what God says REALLY matters.
    I have also found that the old Indian saying has some relevance – “Don’t judge someone until you have walked in their moccasins.” Because of sin both nature and nurture may contribute to our trials and temptations.

  151. Ibelieve Aug 31st 2012

    Years ago we had a young teenager who lived with us and was known to be gay. He came from a home where his father abused him as a young child.

    We provided for this young man, took him to church, let him use the car, truck, and provided some work so he would have spending money.

    He listened to us talk about the Lord.

    He stayed at our house for a number of months and was welcome to stay as long as he wanted. We never looked down on him or treated him inferior but he knew how we believed about the Bible.

    He confessed Christ as his Savior and I thought was headed on the right path.

    Then one day he decided to move out, eventually moved in with his gay lover and they both ended up HIV positive. His gay lover recently died in bed one night from complications.

    When we would see this young man we never looked down on him or spoke hateful towards him as he knew how we believed.

    We can minister to these people as God leads and still have our convictions about homosexuals.

    Many of them are militant against the Bible and any Christians who quote it.

    Just because Andrew wrote this article I am sure he as most Christians have no personal animosity towards the homosexuals as “human beings”, who need to be set free.

    Lord Bless,

  152. Charlene Aug 31st 2012

    I just finished reading 1 Corinthians where Paul had to rebuke that church for tolerating a man sleeping with his father’s wife. Paul said the church was “puffed up”, patting themselves on the back for being so tolerant, rather than mourning what was happening in their midst, and putting the man out of fellowship by delivering “such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” Paul goes on to remind the church that their “glorying is not good because a little leaven (sin) leaveneth the whole lump.” Paul tells them to purge out the old leaven! Yes, we mourn over sin but do not tolerate it in our midst. We cannot. We love the sinner, but hate the sin. And because we view the sin just as our Father does, we cannot allow it to remain among us. Sadly, I have seen this leaven in my sister’s church. There are several girls who have had babies out of wedlock. My niece is part of the dance team there, and one of the young men is openly gay, but still allowed to participate with the worship team! Billy Graham was once asked what his one regret might be. He answered that his one regret was that he may have preached too soft a gospel. You can see that in many churches today, Where is the fire and brimstone of the Finneys or the Whitfields? The story is told of how Finney went onto a factory to ask if he might preach to the workers. A couple of girls standing afar off were making fun of him and laughing. Finney just looked over at them and they both fell on their knees crying for forgiveness. The plant manager closed the plant and Finney preached all night, saving many souls. The time has come to preach the Word and not the fluff. Yes, God is love, but He is also just and cannot, will not tolerate sin. No Andrew. What you said was not hateful. It is truth. But the time has come when man does not want to hear the truth, but would rather have their ears tickled. We can see from world events that God has finally said “enough is enough!” Now is the time to ask for His forgiveness for being “puffed up” and tolerant, and to repent, turn back to “the ancient paths”.

  153. Bryan K. Pfister Aug 31st 2012

    Homosexually is an abomination, but I can not, and should, stop them from marrying legally even though it is against God’s law. Who am I to enforce God’s, or even try to enforce, God’s laws upon unbelievers who are already condemned (John 3: 18). Guess what folks; homosexuals are not condemned for being a homosexual. They are condemned for their unbelief in Christ. Martin Luther wisely said it this way, “Sin in the Scriptures means not only external works of the body but also all those movements within us which bestir themselves and move us to do the external works, namely, the depth of the heart with all its powers. Therefore the word do should refer to a person’s completely falling into sin. No external work of sin happens, after all, unless a person commit himself to it completely, body and soul. In particular, the Scriptures see into the heart, to the root and main source of all sin: unbelief in the depth of the heart. Thus, even as faith alone makes just and brings the Spirit and the desire to do good external works, so it is only unbelief which sins and exalts the flesh and brings desire to do evil external works. That’s what happened to Adam and Eve in Paradise (cf. Genesis 3).

    That is why only unbelief is called sin by Christ, as he says in John, chapter 16, “The Spirit will punish the world because of sin, because it does not believe in me.” Furthermore, before good or bad works happen, which are the good or bad fruits of the heart, there has to be present in the heart either faith or unbelief, the root, sap and chief power of all sin. That is why, in the Scriptures, unbelief is called the head of the serpent and of the ancient dragon which the offspring of the woman, i.e. Christ, must crush, as was promised to Adam (cf. Genesis 3).”

    Thus, I do not speak out against gay marriage but tell them if they want to marry it is okay with me but not God. Unbelievers are totally depraved, already condemned sinners, for their unbelief and NOT ANY PARTICULAR SIN — EVEN HOMOSEXUALITY. Therefore, all sin comes from unbelief, and sin is really unbelief in action. Or to put it in medical terms, unbelief is the disease and all manner of sins are the symptoms of this disease called unbelief. Thus, Christ rightly only called unbelief sin. So, I ask you why speak out against gay marriage which ruins your witness to homosexuals who are offended by the self righteous Christians they hear this from? Are you going to change these homosexuals minds by your carnal reasonings, and self labor, when it is God’s grace that grants a homosexual to repent and see the light? It is far better to address the homosexuals unbelief because it is much better to address the disease than just treat the symptoms. A homosexual, like all unbelievers, are totally depraved and unable to respond to the Gospel apart from Grace, and speaking out against their symptom of homosexuality while ignoring, and not preaching about, their unbelief in Christ, is bad ministry because a medical doctor who just treats the symptoms and not addressing the curable disease of the patient, would not be allowed to practice medicine for very long. Peace!

  154. I wonder why Jesus did not deal with this subject openly i.e. expose, rebuke and warn one taken in such? Why did He make His most vehement distaste for sinners toward religious people? Finally, why when we talk about homosexuals, do we not say God wants man to love fellow man and then to ask the question as to why two men “being in love” do not qualify or are disqualified concerning “love”?
    Because, their “love” is punctuated by the act of sodomy (anal sex and felatio). Acts that turn the natural use of man and woman into something unnatural which brings a searing of the moral compass(concience) which is spiritually dangerous and deceptive to the one taken in such.
    Sexual sin is hard on the conscience at first, but usually lessons as the heart becomes over stimulated and calloused. And as the individual wickedness abounds, love grows cold and lust becomes excacerbated.
    Homosexual feelings are real ones and the person in the lifestyle knows it feels right to them. While there may not be a study sugesting a homo gene, the truth is that all sin is passed down through the genes of Adam. All sin flows from the garden and gets its strength through the law.
    Those who have homosexual tendancies or who are born with a predisposition toward this lewd behavior will only become more motivated to do it when others taught its taboo ness.
    Now the sting of sin is death and the strength of sin is the law. For the commandment taking opportunity by the law produced in me all manner of evil desire. The holy perfect law of God produces sin in the person who reguards it. Why, because the law is weak in flesh – it produces the opposite of what it says in the person who attempts to live by it.
    The law produces sin in the fallen nature and the harder one tries to escape such sin by the use of law-compliance the more exeedingly sinful they will become.
    What the Church needs to do is to teach how the freedom of grace brings a real ability to choose what is pleasing in God’s sight. That know person is going to be judged eternally for anything accept not believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who do not believe, are already condemned.
    As for our children, let us make no mistake. The more we preach acceptance with God based on the lack of sin or law based living – whatever it may be – or compliance with the law – the more we the Church alienate folks from the grace of God.
    Therefore repentance is neccesary and vital – but repentance must concern our attempts to satisfy our own needs apart from Christ Jesus and His wonderful grace.
    Sin is any act, thought or deed which attempts to meet our own need apart from the activity of Jesus Christ in the area of sex, employment, health, wealth, religion and so on.
    grace and peace

    [email protected]

  155. i would hope that somewhere in the last 153 comments someone pointed out that Lev. also says that eating shell fish, like shrimp and lobster is also an ABOMINATION…. god have mercy on all those lovers of sea food……………

  156. Bryan K. Pfister Aug 31st 2012

    Typo, I meant to say SHOULD NOT in this:

    Homosexually is an abomination, but I can not, and should NOT, stop them from marrying legally even though it is against God’s law.

  157. Andrew Aug 31st 2012

    Sadly, I think a nation that approves ‘Gay Marriage’ is very likely to visit God’s judgment upon itself.

    Many nations are headed there right now.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  158. Kathe, you had a very nice testimony. I liked the grace too. I tell jokes about Hollywood setting the standards for the quality of workmanship when it comes to interventions. Shows like how I met your mother. An intervention with manners.

    Love is far more effective for God’s kingdom than abusing people for their sins.

    The church has a reputation for being into the occult. Personally I don’t take thim seriously and I can’t imagine why a homosexual would either.

  159. Andrew Aug 31st 2012

    And to Scott-

    The difference is that Homosexuality is condemned in similar terms all the way through BOTH Old and New Testaments. Not just in the “Levitical Law” – but everywhere including letters to the ‘Gentiles’ such as Romans, 1st Corinthians, Jude, etc.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  160. Bryan K. Pfister Aug 31st 2012

    You are probably right, Andrew, but this should be a call to arms in preaching the Gospel correctly not fleshly action to try and stop totally depraved homosexuals from marrying because you can not fight flesh with flesh. Like Ray Comfort said, “You don’t preach the Gospel to a homosexual by focusing on homosexuality.” Why, because Ray said they are waiting for you with their boxing gloves on. It is better to show them that they are condemned for their unbelief through Scripture and not any particular sin in general. Right?

  161. Andrew Aug 31st 2012

    Yes – I do believe in treating individual ‘gays’ with love and kindness – and winning them to Christ in these ways.

    Bless you!


  162. Bryan K. Pfister Aug 31st 2012

    Andrew said, “True love
    warns and pleads with people not to follow the way of sin and
    death. We cannot compromise on this. It is compromise that is
    “hateful” and leaves people stuck where they are. Love warns,
    because it knows the consequences if it stays silent. This is true
    mercy. So please – do not stop “speaking the truth in love”, my
    friends. It is truly a MUST in this hour. An entire generation is at stake.”

    True, but it is the homosexuals unbelief in Christ which should always be addressed 1st and foremost, unless the Holy Spirit leads you to preach otherwise.

  163. Bryan K. Pfister Aug 31st 2012

    And unbelief is exposed through the Law, but with a homosexual, it usually is not wise to lead with homosexuality unless really lead to. As speaking out against the activists; I agree as lead to. There was many times when Jesus would just walk away without saying a word.

  164. My wife and I minister to a lot of gays and even have a fellowship in a gay couples home at their request and God is moving on their hearts. After 30 years in ministry as a Teen Challenge director and founder of several residential ministries across America, including homes for unwed mothers, I have come to the conclusion that in order to win someone to Jesus one must show compassion and mercy and look through the agenda and into their heart. No one ever gave their life to Christ after having stones thrown at them or hearing that they are an abomination to God, did you come to Jesus that way?

    Concerning the gay gene, their is some scriptural evidence that effeminate males as well as other gays, female or even transgender have inherited the sins of their fathers. Perversion, sexual promiscuity and rape all come down the bloodline of man and manifest in many different ways. Some choose the lifestyle out of hurt or abuse but many others are truly born that way. The church will never change the sinner by hurling abuse or by political intervention only by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and His great mercy can one be transformed by His divine power!

    For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17

  165. Andrew Aug 31st 2012

    The problem is, Tim, that on a culture-wide level, Homosexuality is being promoted massively, so we cannot be silent but have to be heard loud and clear that it is “sin” – lest all our youth be swayed.

    Dealing with individuals is quite different.


  166. Bryan K. Pfister Aug 31st 2012

    Only as led to speak out Andrew. I think some ministers get too puffed up in their flesh when speaking out against homosexuality in general to unbelievers. Are they looking for approval from men since it is such a hot button with Christians and society, or are they genuinely concerned? Actually, both of these can be done in flesh without God in it. The devil can speak out and quote scripture too through ministers and leaders.

  167. The last few months, I have been reading the Huffington Post. It is an interesting experience because this is the first experience I have had with a group of individuals who would be considered actively hostile to Christianity. And they are generally strongly pro-gay.

    This is the message I give people when commenting.

    1. God created marriage as an institution between a man and a woman.

    2. Sex between a man and a woman in the bonds of marriage is pure and honorable, everything else is sin.

    3. It matters little if sexual sin would be adultry, fornication, homosexuality, incest, or beastiality. All unrepented sexual sin will send a person to the eternal ‘Lake of Fire’.

    I guess don’t emphasis that homosexuality is any worse sin than any other sexual sin. There are many hetero-sexuals reading the HP which are on their way to hell. And many of them have very loose sexual standards. In my mind, it is best to give them the proper Christian view that marriage is one man / one woman, and all else is sin.


    I really think most Christians ought to unplug their TVs. I do have one which I will watch the local news and some football when the Packers play, but beyond that, I think most homes and families would be vastly improved if the TV was turned off. I sometimes wonder if TV isn’t the most addictive thing out there, even more so than alcohol, tobacco, and sugar. Ther seem to be very few people who have the willpower to pull the plug

  168. Andrew Aug 31st 2012

    Sure, Bryan – I agree.

    Speaking out in public has to be done with wisdom and grace, led by the Holy Spirit.

    Not “self-righteous”-sounding diatribes.

    Bless you!


  169. Andrew Aug 31st 2012

    And yes, Jim. Television has been a complete spiritual DISASTER entering the home of many Christian children – and turning them from the faith of their parents.

    I agree – throw the TV out!

    Children are so greatly improved by this. We know by experience.

    Bless you!


  170. debylynne Aug 31st 2012

    wade – much further up the ‘thread’ you will find a post by ‘alan’ who addressed what you are asking about – i would recommend you read it – it was a VERY clear word about this subject. :-)

    as i have read some of the comments by people who have dealt ‘up close and personal’ with people bound by homosexuality, i feel the need to ‘give place’ to what they are saying – these people have EXPERIENCE and i submit to their understanding of the issue.

    mine has been with ‘teens’ coming into our Christian Coffeeshop and asking me if they could be ‘gay’ and still be ‘Christians’ so there was no way to ‘approach’ their need for salvation from a ’round about’ way instead of head-on as pertains to their desire to live the homosexual, or with some, the Bi-sexual lifestyle.

    i talked with them, prayed for them, pled with them… the end, they all choose ‘the way of the world’ – the pull of being told that it is ‘ok’ to be gay AND a Christian is too strong – they choose to believe the lie because the ‘others’ FLATTER them and make it ‘all about them’ – heady stuff for young people. in fact, it isn’t ‘just ok’ – it’s COOL to be ‘this way’.

    i HATE this deception – i HATE the lies being fed to these ‘foolish children’ – i HATE them with all my heart. the ‘lies’ – NOT the people.

  171. Wayne Haycraft – re: your article about homosexuality. I have wrote about this several times on Huffpost and am always asked: God says this is an abomination but does Jesus ever say anything about it in the new testament and I can’t find an answer. Pleas help.


    Hello Wayne. You were wondering where Jesus said homosexuality is a sin. The answer is the gospel never quoted him saying that. But the gospels also never addressed incest or beastiality. So if the standard for sin is Jesus must specifically mention the sin, then I guess incest and beastiality is OK.

    What Jesus did say on the matter is He affirmed marriage is between a man and a woman. In Matthew 19, when the Pharisees asked him about divorce, Jesus quoted from Genesis

    And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
    Matt 19:4-5 (NKJV)

    Wayne, where can a person justify gay marriage from Jesus’s words. Jesus never said homosexual sex is a sin, rather he said marriage was between a man and his wife. And he did this in the context of a discussion of divorce and adultry.

    If marriage is between a man and woman, and adultry and fornication are explicitely called sin – how can a person defend homosexual sex, incest, or beastiality???

  172. This is a good example of what happens when the Law is not properly understood. Once any part of it is added or taken away, the gate to sin is wide open. Until the people of Yeshua come to their senses and stop drinking the koolaid of the abolishment of His Law, the only thing that can happen is escalation of wickedness. After all, evil is giving in to what YHWH has defined as corrupt and immoral.

    No more picking and choosing what is right…it’s get it right and get right…according to His Word and not westerners’ ideals. Shalom

  173. If we invest in the love of Christ and set it firmly in our hearts to give ourselves up as He did, He will lead us along those paths and to those divine appointments that will make full use of the talents, gifts and ministries that He gives each one of us. But I think when we begin to contemplate things that are too great for us, we become invested in things that go beyond the sphere of humans, which we are. Hurricanes, Homosexuality, the wrath of God, the downfall of America, etc., etc. The problem is, when we ‘invest’, we want to be right, then, we need to be right, and we begin to separate out the truly faithful from the soft Christians. Meanwhile, many soft Christians transform the lives around them through the love of Christ. God didn’t ask Jonah for his opinion, He simply told him to go and proclaim His message at That time because He was going to do a work. But Jonah, who hated the sin, found that he hated the sinner also. If we preach wrath, it can easily become true that we want to see wrath; we need to see wrath. Humans like to be right. We like to be right. And it is good to quote scripture, but we could prove each other right or wrong all day long by quoting scripture. Each of us has a calling and a ministry. They can even conflict, if we think we ought to be right in every room we walk into. Andrew, you have a difficult row to hoe. It isn’t any of us here who pays you, as your desire is for those riches that neither moth nor rust can desroy. I answered your question as honestly as I could, because you asked. Yes, it seems hateful. But it is your ministry. The Lord uses me locally to intervene when people I know have gotten themselves into a bit of trouble spiritually; when they have, for some reason or another, attracted ‘company’. I don’t know if I would have chosen this ministry. It is intervention through the Holy Spirit that is met with hostility, quite often, and often takes months or years for the individual or individuals to be able to openly speak with me about it. The individuals are usually shepards or others with stong personalities. I have had to learn to appreciate the other, and deeper ways, that the Lord ‘pays’ me, and have come to a point of great peace as I watch over those He charges me to watch over. And when all is well (my aim and hope), I do my best to encourage. We shouldn’t think that we have, or need to have, all the answers. It’s above our pay grade and it detracts from living in this world in a way that opens the Gospel to our neighbors and friends, or even family and strangers. Kingdoms come and kingdoms go but His love endures. To quote a famous non Biblical writer “Don’t Panic!” I pray each and everyone has a well composed and restful evening. And I do pray that the Lord blesses you Andrew.

    Peaceful in Texas because my God is a Big, Big God, and He is Good!

  174. I am honoured to witness someone actually speaking Truth boldly and with authority.I agree fully on your position Andrew and couldn’t have put it better myself.The battle for planet Earth is still raging and homosexuality is clearly “marked” an abomination in Scripture. Love the sinner (us all), hate the sin.

  175. The occult in the church is an even bigger problem than the homosexuality that outside of it. If they do not see the love of The Lord in your ministries they will not take you seriously anyway.

  176. Hello Scott,

    In the case of homosexuality, both the Old and New Testaments agree. Sexual immorality of every kind is condemned in both the Old and New Testaments.

    1 Cor 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither FORNICATORS, nor idolaters, nor ADULTERERS, nor HOMOSEXUALS, nor SODOMITES, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (NKJV)

    Sexual sin is not the only thing which will condemn a person, but all unrepented sexual sin will send a person to the Lake of Fire. So if people commit those things which God condemns, they will pay the consequences of their actions. But if you are committing sexual sin, don’t think the Lake of Fire will be more endurable because other sinners are there with you. If you are doing sexual sin – repent.

  177. and Jim, i have nothing to repent of. as far as god is concerned, i’ve never sinned at all.

  178. Andrew, until the church in America gets out of their honoring God with their lips attitude and get out of their little comfort zones and addresses the real issue which is-Go! and make disciples which is a very time consuming and costly endeavor then homosexuality and abortion will continue to thrive. I started on the picket line with Operation rescue years ago yelling at abortionists but until I opened a home for unwed mothers I saw very little fruit. Revival and restoration begin with the issues of the heart being dealt with from the pulpit as well as the individual, but it will take a group effort to win this battle!

  179. “win this battle” is the type of terminology that defines the anti-homosexual agenda of christianity as being hateful.

  180. Actually, Scott, God is “worried” (that’s a terrible word to use in this context) about everyone’s sin. That’s why He died on the cross. He “worried” (again, a terrible word to use) so much that He did something about it; He made a way where there was no way. Sin separates. This isn’t now the point where we can sin so that grace can further abound!!! Paul talks about that little lie.

    You may have stopped worrying about offending Christ with your sins and the sins of those around you, but to put this back on to God tells me that you have yet a deeper understanding of Him to acknowledge. In order to put something behind you, you must first be concerned with it. Sin has been the whole concern of God since the beginning.

    You may make it whatever you like. The truth is something greater than what you or I can make it. Someday, you will see.

  181. DeWayne Aug 31st 2012

    Wow, if we say we have no sin, yet in this body of flesh. Lord forgive my sense just now of superiority.

    There is one danger I’ve noticed, God being the only one to judge outside the church, we on the other hand within God’s will and purpose may outside the church… “have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.”

    And then again there are some in the church that believe ‘laws’ need be passed (in the world) to make people holy… and politically correct.

    Of sin that leads to death, and sin that does not lead to death, how to bind the ‘strong man’ in these times. Christ did it, one on one, in the world, also casting out spirit’s of darkness, sometimes called demons in possession… does this give ‘discipling’ added meaning?

  182. DeWayne Aug 31st 2012

    The secular world (USA) calls our present leaders (government) the lesser of two evils… which evil do you plan on electing?

    Trim wick and fill your lamp… testing everything with God’s word. Be glad you know what is in the cup, rather than having been fixated on whether it is half full or half empty.

  183. The Law with its EXTERNAL rules and regulations has been dealt with:

    Col 2:13,14 – “He forgave us all our sins, having CANCELED the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.”

    This is regarding external rules and regulations, such as abstaining from certain foods (you lobster-loving commenter!) and keeping of Sabbath and Holy Days

    Col 2:16,17 – “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.”

    But holiness still stands.

    Heb 12:14 – “without holiness no one will see the Lord.”
    Rom 6:22 – “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life”

    That is why the 1 Cor 6:9,10 passage quotes sins of the flesh.

    1 Cor 6:9,10 – “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Notice how it says “DO NOT BE DECEIVED”.

    The Church IS deceived in this matter currently, with its preaching of uber-grace, teaching that we can live how we want and still get to heaven.

    Heb 10:26,27 – “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”

    We are an ENEMY of God if we will not submit to or believe God’s Written Word means what it says.

    Once we are truly CONVERTED from being an “object of wrath” to becoming a “righteous saint” we must live as saints and put our flesh to death:

    Ephesians 2:3 – “Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.”
    Galatians 6:15 – “Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.”

    Of course we are saved BY GRACE through Faith, and not by our own good deeds (Eph 2:4-10), but after we are CONVERTED FROM being powerless under the control of sin we are to walk as children of light … but this full gospel is no longer preached and so we have this confusion that one can be gay and still be saved or this confusion that to stand against sin is unloving.

    Putting sin UNDER is not always easy. Especially for those of us who were totally surrendered to the power of extreme sin before becoming Born Again / Converted. But putting sin UNDER IS commanded. Even if we have to take to fasting and extended prayer to do so!

    1 John 3:7,8 – “Little children, make sure no one deceives you; (There is that word DECEPTION again) the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.”

    Peace, grace and wisdom to all who will stand up and preach God’s entire Truth … of course, preach it with love and not angrily.


  184. nations have been perished over that abomination.

  185. Kathleen Aug 31st 2012


    What you said was blasphemous against the Word of God. The way you said it was dark and of the enemy.

    I now have a general idea of where this conversation is heading…so I will bow out.

    Thanks Andrew for bringing up this important topic.

    God Bless you all.

  186. Gary Simpson Aug 31st 2012

    I do not think that homosexuality is the major problem, but it is sin itself that is the major problem.
    Churches today teach that we are just sinners saved by grace, and that we will all sin until the day we die; scripture denounces this heresy.
    Scripture in 1 John 3:9 says that whosoever is born of God doth not sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    v8 says that he that committeth sin is of the devil.
    Satans objective is to convince the church that it is ok to sin, and thereby we remain his until we die, forfeiting our souls.
    This is the major battle, yet satan uses the issues of homosexuality and abortion to distract us, so that we focus the fight on these side issues, and neglect the most important one: that if we are truly born of God,we simply must stop sinning completely, as scripture so plainly says.
    v9 …and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

  187. Bob, I feel really sad for you, because although you may have repeated the ‘sinner’s prayer’ at age 16, the one thing you definitely did not do was be born again, or ‘become a Christian’ as you put it. This I can tell you this from your own words about the scriptures, which show no evidence of your being led by the Holy Spirit at all.

    You may have attended church, done Bible studies ’til you can quote whole books by memory, but you haven’t been reborn by the Spirit, because if you had, then your understanding of the Word, would have allowed you to see that the sin of Homosexuality is a choice (see Romans 1), that is a direct result of the progressive rejection of the truth about who God is.

    That people can ‘become Christians’ and still be guilty of this, is evident by looking at the behaviour of the majority of those who call themselves Christians today in countries where it won’t cost your life to be one.

    The Christian divorce rate is on a par with the world, as is teenage pregnancy, abortion, child-abuse, adultery, etc,etc. The list is comprehensive, but sadly true, the Church is more like the world than the world is. Non-christians look at the eagerness of the church to allow all these things to be handled by a weak; “Oh we don’t want to be judgemental” statement, when they know that the churches should be standing up for morality. Their accusations of hypocrisy are sadly well founded and people like yourself, are helping to build that edifice higher.

    A close friend of my parents back in the 60’s was delivered from his homosexuality when he was saved. There was no ‘deliverance ministry’ done in the sense that it is today, but he was delivered, nonetheless. He knew all the objections that people like you put forward, and he had the answers for them too. The fact is that when someone gets saved, they become a new creation, according to the scriptures. They will still wrestle with the ‘inner man’, as Paul says, but they will have the power to do so if the Holy Spirit truly dwells within them.

    To take a leaf out of your book, supposing a pedophile becomes a Christian. Is it reasonable to say that if this person still longs to do the things that they did before they ‘became a Christian’, they must have been born that way and therefore they should just accept that about themselves?

    If they have ‘always had these urges’, then surely we should just accept their behaviour in the spirit of good christian charity and let them be. If you think that’s just me being flippant, think again.

    There are moves afoot across the globe to “remove the stigma of being ‘young-age-attracted’ , form society, by outlawing labelling of these people.” If you doubt me, look it up. While the Federal Government’s Hate Crimes out law this already, Psychiatrists are seriously considering removing pedophilia from the list of aberrant behaviours.

    But of course, if we are to follow the line of reasoning you put forward above we will accept these people as they are, as a good christian should. Right? So then you’d be happy to see one of these people teaching Sunday School? To exclude them would be to show partiality, which we are not supposed to do, so where should we go from here?

    I urge you to seek the Lord and repent, asking Him to truly save you, rather than stay in this state of head knowledge.

  188. Agreed Andrew. Just been reading what is said in R Joyner’s book The Call, where his encounter with Lot and his retrospective view of his time in Sodom went like: “I was silent and many perished. You must not be like me – you must not be silent……I thought that I would be a warning just by being different. Being different is not enough!”
    In contrast Jonah preached words (yes, ‘words’) and saved a whole city.
    I reckon a recent teaching in the Church is way overstated. It goes – “preach the word and if necessary use words”. You’ve heard it, right! It kind of lets us of the hook. Maybe it’s a good saying when we don’t know how to speak in the right spirit. But I think the Church should be mature enough now to say things as they are, not needing to gainsay, or feel we need to have all the answers. We are trying to save lives from the enemy, not win arguments.

  189. Foolhardy Fred Aug 31st 2012

    An excellent comment Andrew. I have heard that Pastors in the USA and elsewhere are actually apologizing to homosexuals for the church ever having preached against their lifestyle.

    Many are actually agitating for homosexuals to be allowed into Pastoral and other leadership positions.

    The following excellent statement becomes increasingly relevant to committed bible believing christians everyday.

    The devil is not fighting religion. He’s too smart for that. He is producing a counterfeit Christianity, so much like the real one that good Christians are afraid to speak out against it. We are plainly told in the Scriptures that in the last days men will not endure sound doctrine and will depart from the faith and heap to themselves teachers to tickle their ears. We live in an epidemic of this itch, and popular preachers have developed “ear-tickling” into a fine art.

    –Vance Havner, Playing Marbles With Diamonds

    For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    –(2 Cor 11:13-14)

  190. Ibelieve Aug 31st 2012

    QUOTE: Andrew wrote: We need to start seeing gay promotions and gay TV shows, not just as ‘Homosexual’ events, but also as “preaching” events. They are designed to “convert’ people – to make them ‘fine’ with sin – yet “not fine” with anyone who opposes the sin. UNQUOTE

    Most big name hollywood stars are now coming out of the closet and telling everyone they are gay.

    Hollywood makes sin appear as something fun and to laugh about, while making the Christian look like a Bible quoting fanatic.

    Here’s the scene; They are all laughing about their adulterous fun sin, and some nerdy looking guy is seen quoting the Bible.

    We never see on TV all of the oppression, stress, depression, and even possession that occurs when people are trapped in Sin.

    TV is the biggest tool of the devil to influence the masses while making Christians think they should just remain silent.

    The comments of many prove that people who say they are Christians have more of an open world view that has come from this influence of hollywood.

    We ran into a situation the other day, when someone said, we are following Christ’s example and are being “inclusive”.

    Indicating the rest of us are being “exclusive”, by believing and quoting the Bible.

    Hollywood has tentacles of the devil reaching into every Christian home that allows him there.

    Lord Bless,

  191. Peter loved Jesus and so he cut off a man’s ear. Later, this man’s relative struck Jesus in the face. The time will come when others will pay the price for what you call love; this above all, is the history of the church. I hear anger, judgment, fear and a good deal of prosecution. I don’t see much of what the average person could construe as love. By the time your generosity is complete, there will be few among those who are losing their immortal souls that will even remember what an ear looked like. Sometimes what comes across as being hateful isn’t love, but is indeed hate. There’s far too many here who are convinced they speak for Him. This is a war that rages in part because Christians turn Christianity into the long arm of God’s law. This has eternal consequences for many who are put under tremendous condemnation before they ever come to contemplation. Truth? This is His name. The Truth was sent to redeem the lost. If you put them in dungeons of abomination, do you really think you helped the Truth? I’m quite tired of Christians who declare themselves to be on such high ground. Some here have their versus all lined up, but offer it up as prosecution: the prosecution of the afflicted and oppressed. “If you can make it through the barbed wire, land mines and etc., etc., there’s a really nice man named Jesus just waiting to make you like us” Yes, you’ve got them clamoring to get in. And as far as the America bashers go, you are talking about individuals, not a nation. A nation is a collective idea. America is filled with people. The Lord came to save individual people. We really are not a we, and He does not deal with us as we’s. America this, America that. I am a he, my wife and daughters are she’s. He is not dismayed but indeed, He has plans to bring many to Himself. He will use whatever means seems fit. Why are some of you so distraught about what we must go through? Is God caught off gaurd? Remember Jonah He will fulfill His purposes in their proper times. Desolations have been decreed. He isn’t asking for our help in this. Homosexuality isn’t the problem, as much as the stones thrown. He who is without sin doesn’t apply? I guess anything goes as long as you’re speaking the truth. Odd that Jesus wasn’t so preoccupied and offended. Why did He, for the most part, leave this subject alone? That, I think, is a question whose answer might help us. If we imitated Christ on this matter, especially concerning the media and public forum, maybe we never end up here. Maybe they would still have ears to hear, and be saved.

  192. Foolhardy Fred Aug 31st 2012

    If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.(John 15:18-19)

    Increasingly over the past couple of years, many of us within evangelical christianity, have either been a participant in, or an observer of the following kind of several step exchange;

    Step 1) A Christian “celebrity” proposes that the church needs to be more tolerant of homosexuality. (or other false teaching lifestyle behaviour or belief system for that matter).

    Step 2) A Christian disciple takes an exception to it, and reaffirms the biblical position on homosexuality.

    Step 3) Another christian disciple, no doubt equally sincere, takes the brother in step 2 to task for asserting the biblical position on the subject. He (or she) usually demands “Where is the grace?”, or some variation of “Why do you have to be so harsh and unloving?”, or“How are we going to reach these injured souls, if all we do is judge them like that?”.
    Step 4) The Christian concerned about upholding and affirming the biblical view of marriage, sex and gender, is put on the defensive, as though to do so is unloving. He is made to justify himself that he is indeed loving to sinners.

    Step 5) The next step is usually the assertion of a moral equivalence between Homosexuality, and gluttony,lies or being critical. (By then the “P” word has been brandished, either openly or implicitly, and in some cases the “H” word*.)*

    Step 6) As the discussion progresses, usually the entire believing church is castigated for being harsh and unloving (for the last 19 centuries), casting out people when they should have been including them and winning them over in love!

    How did we arrive at this place? What is this that has come to divide the last bastion of resistance to the agenda of those who would annihilate all of the God ordained distinctions, including male and female?

    I believe I have a theory that can explain this.

    Mind you my theory only addresses the church side of this multifaceted problem. There are other factors that feed into this schism as well, which would be good topics for another time.

    What I believe has happened is that there are a good many pastors who are worldly, and misunderstand and shun the reproach of Christ. They don’t get that, it is at just that point that the world is currently rebelling against God, that the church must bear humble witness to the Truth.

    Even if it exposes the church to hatred, reproach and abuse. We are not always going to be ‘loved and appreciated’.

    These pastors have been trained humanistically, they think in terms of man, they have a man centered gospel, and are unfamiliar with concepts such as the holiness of God or the centrality of the Glory of God. They are very much in tune, and good at tapping into the “Spirit of the Age”, and christianizing it. A good many of them are hip youth group leader types, only grown older.

    The current “Spirit of the Age” is tolerance, acceptance, even of the unacceptable, and non-judgmentalism. Everything is the Civil Rights movement of the sixties, and no one wants to be the next Bull Connor. This is the current delusion.

    What these pastors are more than willing to do, is to criticize the church, (and I mean the whole church, down through the ages) as having been unloving, uncaring and judgmental to people who need it the most.

    They do this so that they can contrast themselves and their own ilk, as being the only compassionate and humane ones. This is posturing, and it is effective. They get to be Jesus, whilst the vast majority of the church, get to be the Pharisees. Especially those who dare speak out, asserting biblical truth with any kind of authority.(Authority is taboo now, we are all supposed to be conflicted, and uncertain, even apologetic!).

    I have seen this played out many times. I have seen pastors actually apologize on behalf of the church,(not their own church mind you), to the “homosexual community” for years of alledged maltreatment by christians.

    This is the false love, it is humanistic, misguided, and is seducing a good many to succumb to evil, siding with it in the face of truth, light and goodness.

    They actually resist truth in the name of the “love”! The knee jerk reactions that we see coming from their followers, is always against any christian who dares to assert the biblical position. It is never against those who would distort it or ignore it altogether.

    It is also based on a wrong notion of sinners, that they are poor, misunderstood souls who just need someone to uncritically walk alongside of them, as Jesus supposedly did. It doesn’t see sinners as the rebels they really are, who would unseat God himself if possible, and who seek to profane everything holy, including and especially the church.

    Should the church welcome all sinners regardless of their sins? Absolutely! That is a given and it always has been through the centuries, regardless of the accounts of the new compassionate preachers. But should the church accommodate itself to the “gay community”? Should it apologize as though preaching the truth about God’s Righteousness were wrong or insensitive? Need I even answer this?

    I saw an example of this one night watching Larry King. Larry had three guests on. The first was a backslidden gospel music star, a confused young woman who came out as a Lesbian, and was insisting that she could still be a christian minister.

    The second guest was a real christian, a pastor(I don’t even know his name) who spoke lovingly to the young woman. He told her, that she could be forgiven of her sin, but needed to repent, and that Jesus could restore her. He insisted that her lesbianism was a sin, but that she could overcome it through Jesus.

    The third guest was once the head of the National Association of Evangelicals, and a well known pastor. He interrupted the other pastor with this ,”Wait a minute brother, just remember that the only people Jesus ever rebuked were the self righteous ones who judged others”.

    Larry King was overjoyed at this “open minded” preacher! Finally an evangelical who “gets it!”. The Young woman was encouraged and bolstered by that response also, so much so that she was able to laugh the true preacher in the face, and ignore his pleadings.

    I believe it was the Holy Spirit who spoke to me when I saw that spectacle saying, “Do you see what He just did? He just gained the world!”.

    He didn’t get rich or famous, but for that brief moment, At the very point that the Spirit of the Age was contesting, he was willing to posture, to cut off the truth, so that he could be seen by the world as “one of the good,non judgmental christians’. At the expense of his loving, and truth telling brother, he gained the world.

    This is part of what is behind the schism coming to the believing church. Refusal to share in the reproach of the witness of christ, the desire to be seen as ‘loving’ by worldly standards, as understanding, compassionate even with it. They actually resist truth, showing willingness to rebuke those who seriously witness against this generation at their deepest sin and error. May God help us through this trial! May God revive the church!

  193. Marilyn Joan P Aug 31st 2012

    Andrew, I heartily agree with all you have written. I too have been so concerned for our young people who see homosexuality paraded so openly on TV. and also on the streets, with their “Gay Mardigras” and the number of people who go to watch it. I really makes me replulsed to see it on TV and I will not watch it. I have emailed politicians on both sides of politics, asking them not to vote for ‘samesex marriage’. I too, do not understand why Christians, and the Church are so afraid to make their voice heard that Homosexuality is an ‘abomination’ before God. Unfortunately, I think some Christians really do not know their scriptures either and know what the Lord is saying in His Word. I am so concerned for Tasmania who voted in favour of ‘Gay Marriage’, it really is the thin edge of the wedge in Australia. May God have mercy on us.
    Bless you Andrew.

  194. Serenity Aug 31st 2012

    Practical steps : Get the tv off the property – permanently.
    No dvd ‘s in the home, unless fully vetted beforehand by the parents.
    Keep out of the movie theatre.
    Home computer with strongest protection. Limited computer use by ch’n. Computer where parent can see what’s on screen.
    Mag’s or newspapers vetted by parents before sitting on the table.
    Home school children all thru school, OR, godly Chr’n school.
    No cell phone for under 16’s.
    Plenty of healthy family activities.
    Dad read the Bible at the family meal table.
    Would-be friends observed really closely before visiting again. One parent always keeping tabs on what’s going on. Don’t trust “Christian” or other friends or family with your lambs. Watch and Pray !
    No sleepovers. No camping out with mates.
    Chaperoned dating only.

    This list can minimize your tender child’s exposure while they are most vulnerable to wolves. Prevention is better than (trying to) cure. We brought up our ch’n very much on these lines ; it IS do-able. (The last point didn’t work after age 16.)
    One comment from daughter : “You protected me.”
    PTL ! That’s an accolade. :-)

  195. A friend of mine wrote these words, which seem appropriate here:-

    Tell people, God loves them and has a wonderful plan for their life, and they will pat you on the back and call you a fine Christian person.
    Tell people that the government should do something about the poor and they will class you as a saint.
    If you tell people with the religious authority that comes from ignorance that it doesn’t matter what you believe, all roads lead to God and they will applaude your open minded generosity, but tell people that without accepting the Biblical Christ and the Biblical gospel they will be judged for their sins and spend eternity in Hell and they will condemn you as a hateful person and you will be despised and rejected….But this IS the gospel! And the only hope for men….And the message which Jesus entrusted to us.

  196. Craig and any others that have said on this thread that jesus never addressed the issue of homosexuality, I refuted that nonsense above, but to save you the trouble of wading through all the posts on here to find what i wrote, here it is again:-

    I read a few posts back where someone said that Jesus never spoke on the issue of homosexuality and I notice this is often said by many people on this subject. My response to this is the following;

    The Bible calls itself the Word of God.
    Jesus is called the Word of God.
    One is written, the other living, but they are both the Word of God and therefore anything written in the Bible is something Jesus said, from the declaration “Let there be light!” in Genesis 1, to “Surely I come quickly” in Revelation 22.

    In other words, the Bible reveals God to us by declaration. Jesus did the same while He was on earth. He IS the Word, according to John ch.1, so whenever God has spoken, it is Jesus who is the active voice of God and therefore the whole Bible is Him speaking to us.

    To bring this to the point, when Paul wrote Romans chapter one, it was and is the voice of Jesus Himself that is ‘speaking’ here.

    Quite apart from the nonsense that those ‘Red-letter Christians’ spout about only the actual words of Jesus being God’s Word, the whole Bible is the words of Jesus, so it’s ludicrous to say that Jesus didn’t mention this or that, so it doesn’t count.

    The only other option is to regard the words of Paul as being his alone and therefore not God-breathed scripture, which is unacceptable.

  197. A child of the King Aug 31st 2012

    Thank you Andrew. The TRUTH shall still in this day and age set people free. The deception of the enemy to make even Christian folk “embrace” sin became evidently clear to me when my wife’s sister had an extra-marital child some 11 years ago, and when I called it sin, I was rebuked by my mother-in-law who said that it was not sin for the child was conceived in love – a love child! I pray for my own children’s protection every day.

  198. Christian journalist Aug 31st 2012

    Wow, people are coming out of their closets to express their views, opinions, and of course using scripture.
    But talking and doing are different when we say things but not act upon it.
    That is why the modern church has difficulties in what to belief, accept, and practice.
    Thanks Jim for your contribution about what Jesus did not say about homosexuality, incest, and beastiality. This is where christians, non christians, and the ungodly pounce upon. The homosexuality lobby use this with their argument about homosexualtiy and same sex marriages. Sin is SIN how much one wishes to say that what Jim mentioned, especially homosexuality the contentious issue, is not.
    I watch TV to see watch teachings and prophecies are being made on christian tv stations. What I have heard so far does not impress me, feed me, and encourages me. The programmes are saturated with ME, ME, ME and the want of money to keep TV evangelists, organisations, and charities going. And it is that obvious they that play ignorance to the recession. Why don’t they sell their aeroplanes they have in jet setting all over the world? The market ploy is to plead their poverty at cameras and for viewers to sow their financial seeds to them.
    I watch TV to find out what is going on in the world and if I had not done so I would not have known about Hurricane Isaac. Yes, I would have read about in the newsspapers, hence being a journalist, but if I was a christian not having the means to buy a newspaper, a TV, or a computer, how would I have known?
    Unplugging my TV is not a solution which Jim points out.
    Foolhardt Fred nakes valid reasoning and has a biblical view with his comment about christians and the christian church accepting and tolerating homosexuality.
    When I discuss this issue, I have encountered people whether they be christian, non christian, lesbian and gay, with voilent opposition with them saying that I am a bigot. Dare christians say that of Christ?
    I am expected the “love” people into the kingdom. But at what expense? This one word has many connotations. The same word is used by christian leadership for not tackling sin, and of course one word avoided which John the Baptist said to all that listened to him is REPENTANCE.
    Love is an expression which is being used out of context.It is the opposite of hatred. It is similar with the word “gay” where it has been adapted to mean something else and what is today.
    It is unscriptural to love people into God’s kingdom without REPENTANCE.
    John the Baptist called people to Repentance. So same applies to lesbians and homosexuals. If the Lord Jesus in His teachings declared a change of life and lifesyles thoughout His ministry, we our need to change if we have not already done so. This applies to those living homosexual lifestyles and when lesbians and homosexuals repent of their sins, the christian church should pull out the plugs in helping them as being new creatures in Christ Jesus.
    Before repenting and accepting the Lord as my personal Saviour, my life was entwines in the occult being a medium and clairyoyant. And yes, was part of the so called christian spiritualist church. The Word of God specifically warns about consulting the dead, and occult and demonic practices.
    And yet recognising what lay behind the Toronto Blessing phenomenon and those christian leaders promoting the TB experience, I was told it was of the Holy Spirit when the Spirit of God had nothing to do with it. Yes, what was happening with the Toronto Blessing I did this as an occultist.
    Spirit filled born again christians were encourage to receive the TB and to impart it onto others whether they be christians or not.
    A deceptive lie.
    It is similar to accepting homosexuality as part of a christian lifestyle which to biblical standards is not. The same applies to the TB experience which has come and gone but returning dressed up to be something else with the repetative phrase that “God is doing something new.”
    Beware, take heed, and be warned.

  199. Thank you Andrew for always speaking the truth,and for your gift of discernment. I think a lot of the problem today is that young people,because they have homosexual feelings,think that they are “gay”,whereas,if persistent,they are like symptoms of a disease. There is no such thing as a homosexual person-only a person with homosexual feelings! This is not surprising in today’s generation,with so many one -parent families and absence of fathering.

  200. Liberty Aug 31st 2012

    The word of God should settle all issues for a Christian. We really are to tell people in what ways their lives are wrong as you can see from the scripture I give at the end of this post.

    My sister was supernaturally delivered by God Himself from the spirit of homosexuality, over 30 yrs ago. Yes, she thought that she had been born that way. But then Christians began telling her that she was living in sin and that homosexuality was an abomination to God and they told her she was not born that way because God does not make mistakes. She got angry at first and cussed at them, but the word of God did it’s work inside her and she went to the bible to see if what these Christians were telling her was true. A long story short, she cried out to God, and had a Damascus road type experience with His presence. When she got up off the floor, she was completely delivered of that unclean spirit. The healing of her mind from the effects of years of living under the influence of that spirit took several years of study of the word of God however. Jesus dealt with unclean spirits while on earth, which would include homosexuality for it is extremely unclean and gives it’s human hosts unclean thoughts and practices. But my sister’s deliverance all started with Christians planting the truth of God’s word into her and God giving the increase until that word brought the harvest of salvation and deliverance to her.

    2 Timothy 4:2-4
    2 Herald and preach the Word! Keep your sense of urgency [stand by, be at hand and ready], whether the opportunity seems to be favorable or unfavorable. [Whether it is convenient or inconvenient, whether it is welcome or unwelcome, you as preacher of the Word are to show people in what way their lives are wrong.] And convince them, rebuking and correcting, warning and urging and encouraging them, being unflagging and inexhaustible in patience and teaching.

    3 For the time is coming when [people] will not tolerate (endure) sound and wholesome instruction, but, having ears itching [for something pleasing and gratifying], they will gather to themselves one teacher after another to a considerable number, chosen to satisfy their own liking and to foster the errors they hold,

    4 And will turn aside from hearing the truth and wander off into myths and man-made fictions.

  201. watchful Aug 31st 2012

    The point that was being made was not at all about keeping silent about this – it’s amazing the complete misconstruction being made and that some of us are being put into the same camp as those who condone homosexuality etc. But in speaking we should speak in the same Spirit as Jesus did – if we are HIS servants and not our own. Flesh profits nothing, but do we really believe that yet?

    What if the Father is allowing things to wax worse to bring these things into the light so that He can be glorified in the midst of the deep darkness covering the earth when He pulls that kingdom down? Let’s cease from our own works and keep building our ark, for our own sakes, for His sake and for the sake of all those “beastly” carnal ones who will be called to come in and be saved two by two. Remember that Noah was asked to build “for himself” an ark.

  202. Kathleen Aug 31st 2012

    Pedophiles will tell you they were born that way; so will alcoholics – – and even Lady Gaga. The fact is, we are born with a sin nature that often shows up by way of predilections for the deviant. I know: I was born into a family with a long history of alchoholism & had to wage (& win, thanks to the Lord) my own battle with it in my mid-20s. It was “normal” for me to drink too much.

    Andrew rightly uses the term “normalize” in his address. It’s the gameplan for those that advance not just the normalcy of homosexuality, but the normalcy of all manner of deviant behavior. I dare say, it’s having a powerfully effective result.

    At the very least, let us be salt & light — AND bold in so being. We need not forfeit respect or love for another, but seize every opportunity to reason together.

    Woe to those who call evil good
    and good evil,
    who put darkness for light
    and light for darkness,
    who put bitter for sweet
    and sweet for bitter.
    ~ Isaiah 5:20

  203. It looks like my satirical comment was deleted but not the critique of it.

    Someone said that what I wrote was blasphemous against the Word of God. What I wrote was was inspired by the Word of God, Jesus. I am also sure He found it spot on and humorous, but then he always like to poke the eyes of the self-righteous.

  204. 1 John 3:7-8

    “Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.”

    The works of Satan have been destroyed by Jesus, period, end of story, preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, preach the good news of the kingdom of God and do the greater works that Jesus said those who believe in Him would do.

  205. It is hateful to blame all the death , misery and destuction from Issac and Katrina on the gays. The previous article does just that by saying it is all judgement because of the gay convention in the city .And the city of New Orleans only had minor damage from Issac , so the whole premise that it is judgement time is off.Jesus calls us to repent of all sin and follow Him.

    Some people are using preaching the gospel as an excuse to try to control and dominate secular society, that is wrong.

  206. Nicole Aug 31st 2012

    Jeff, your last comment’s I agree w/. I am in Texas. MANY OF YOU are not close enough nor see what is going on in Louisianna.

    I am seeing a continued bombardment of good Christian folks, putting in “their two cents” of what God is , or is not doing, What this hurricane IS or isn’t about and all the Signs, and POSSIBLE PROPHETIC innuendos that many are truly FEELING. NOT HEARING FROM GOD.

    IS it possible that because it is “7 yrs. to the date of Katrina” That God was “judging” or coming down on New Orleans? Anything is possible , but one thing that you all , for the most part is forgetting OR DO NOT KNOW.

    In the US there is what is called “HURRICANE SEASON” It starts in the summer months and ends at the end of November.

    MOST ALL HURRICANES, NOT ALL OF THEM< but most of them, intensify around July/mostly in August to Sept. maybe beginning of Oct. while the waters of the Gulf etc.etc.etc. are extremely HOT.

    I think you all , for the most part, ARE SPECULATING, that GOD IS SHOWING HIS RATH upon New Orleans.

    For you all that have not been to this part of the country, we need to stick to Facts, not presumptions.

    Let's look at today, There is a huge earthquake that happened a 7.9 off of the Phillipine Islands. IS that too, GOD'S WRATH? I have no idea. HE didn't whisper in my ear to tell me. BUT IT HAPPENED.

    I think Jeff's last sentence of

    ""Some people are using preaching the gospel as an excuse to try to control and dominate secular society, that is wrong."""

    Is correct.

    I do not believe that there is a town or city, or area or country that is not experiencing a "sodemn and gohmorrah lifestyle. I believe homosexuality is the "new norm" and is it sinful? YES, Is it immoral , YES, ist it UNGODLY , YES, but every city and town has it.

    New Orleans, for the most part has been spared. The Bourbon Street where all the visitors and parades and sex and strip joints and gays and lesbians and Maudi Gras , is . HAS been spared. Maybe it threw off the weekend of the lesbian etc. parade and gathering , but I am sure that they will "plan it next year or elsewhere"

    Most of you , "just get snippets" of what is going on. Unless you live in the USA and unless you live really close to the situation, I think you all are using God to voice what you preceive HE IS DOING.

    We are all guilty. Most of us, have nothing but "opinions" based on our own thoughts, insights, and also what we have seen, heard or read, in churches, blogs, or media or from our past.

    Some of us, want REVIVAL so bad, that we want to "portray" something much more than what it is. Is this too, not a sin? We are constantly trying to dictate our thoughts onto others by using verses from the bible .

    YES, we are probably and most likely in the last days, but IT IS GOD that is in Control . We forget that Jesus didn't state HIS opinions. We are all guilty of that.

    Right now, I am watching the reprocusions of this Hurricane. There are already 5 deaths, probably more will come. But there are GOOD SOLID people out there suffering. Whether they are in "sin" or not, that is GOD's decision to bring them forth . There are people crying out to HIM and churches that have already set up and are praying w/ folks. I don't know if they are for or against gays, or if they are sleeping w/ the neighbor. But what I do know, is this, GOD KNOWS and GOD is IN CONTROL.

    It is our part to be there for those in harms way, in need, and to help.

    I have in the past, massaged many , many gays. In my early years, I bought one of my buisnesses from a "CHRISTIAN GAY". She was active and she was very into it. I DID NOT come at her, shake my finger at her, or condemn her or tell her God is going to knock you down or strike you w/ lighting because you are gay.

    During that time, I massaged many folks that were gay. Until I had a chance to turn the buisness around and get it more into what I wanted it to be. It became a ministry and I massaged people from Sports Superstars to Judges, to strippers and everything in between. God gave me a gift, I used it, and I helped by allowing the Holy SPirit to reign in what HE wanted me to tell them.

    I didn't do it all "correct" I am sure. But I learned that love and the fact that MOST ALL of them that I massaged , had a story. Normally a heartbreaking story. One of incest to rape, to bad marriage, to a parent that was controlling and demanding to those that had masculine or feminine body movements.

    I have been churches that condemned these people even when they reached out to want to be taken out of that lifestyle.

    I would recommend highly that if you are going to deal w/ these type of people, there better not be one ounce of judgement in you and you better allow the Holy Spirit to lead you.

    There is always a situation of feelings and life of a long history w/ these people and unless you have the time, the patience , the compassion of our Lord Jesus Christ, and HIS move to have you say something, then you need to follow through. BUT don't go and think you are going to change them w/ a one time visit or a one time love and unity speech.

    I worked w/ most of them for at least a year. They kept coming back and I knew it was the Lord. But what I realized is they have "another" that they either are involved w/ or live w/ or just dumped.

    Most of them are proud. You will not get through to them. Most of them don't want to change, you will not change them. ONLY THOSE THAT THE LORD truly has for HIM, will come around. No we don't know who they are, but you find out quickly enough.

    My findings were that one would have heart or a desire to trust NOT I but the LORD , I was able, through the power of the Holy Spirit , to talk to them , one on one, while giving a massage . Sorry to say, that their "significant other" was not yet there and it would be seeds that dropped on the rocky soil and never would be watered. Most stopped coming to me, when their "other " would see a change in them. But I did my part, as I listened to them. I found out about their story" I prayed w/ them, I prayed for them and then I left it to the Lord.

    We are coming into a time in our life now, that we are being bombarded w/ these types of people. We will truly have to listen to the Holy Spirit , and to be guided by HIM , to be able to confront the situation.

    As far as Hurricane Issac, I ask that each and every one of you, look into your own hearts, and if you are condemning any one or judging anything or anyone and IT IS NOT TRULY GOD speaking to you, I would ask you to repent.

    The worst of this is not over. Is it of God. ? Well He ALLOWED it. But so many factors are playing in this.

    USA has a very hard election going on. Gas prices are rising to almost 4.00 a gallon plus in some states. We have had the worst drought ever, and now we will be fighting mosquitos, bugs and whatever else if there is not a hard , hard freeze. West Nyle VIrus is coming on strong and we have folks dying from it. People in Louisanna, have their homes completely covered in water that is stagnating and many have lost everything. Electricity is out for almost 750,000 people and won't come on anytime soon.

    Will sin still continue and folks still practice voodoo and black majic? YEP, they will . But mixed w/ them, there are folks that truly love the Lord Jesus Christ and HE and ONLY HE through what ever means HE decides, will HELP THEM and PROTECT THEM.

    I think it is time we reflect on HIS GOODNESS and all HE CAN DO for HE does love many of them.

    PLEASE, stop and just pray for the folks and stop trying to figure out what God's next move is going to be or if 'THIS IS THE BIG ONE"

    It will all happen IN HIS TIMING and HE will give direction to those that HE CHOOSES to TELL.

    I know I have been guilty of some of the same nonesense that I am reading here on many blogs, but I believe God has moved me away and is teaching me something else at this point and time. But that is ME. He will do the same to those that cry out to HIM and ask HIM. Sometimes we are so full of our own "hooey" that we just don't listen.

    Much is going on in the states. I hear it all over, but then look at what is going around the country and the world. It is everywhere. But none of us TRULY KNOW that it is bringing forth what our hearts are desiring. It might happen in time, but God is so patient and for those that want to claim that GOD is about to run out of patience, I would think twice about that. !!! We are not God nor will we ever be. Let God be God and Allow us to be HIS SERVANTS.

    For those living in or around the hurricane, now storms, I pray for you all and I pray that your safety and your family, friends, buisnesses etc.etc. will be o.k. I pray that those that can, pray w/ someone in need and help them in what ever capacity the Lord gives you . I pray that God , Lord Jesus Christ and Holy SPirit will comfort you, and teach you and show you HIM. I pray that you all come out stronger and understand HIM better. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

  207. Judianna Aug 31st 2012

    Just remember that it is not only the “wicked” that gets the judgment—it’s those of us who do not count ourselves in that number; we are not homosexual, not living in sexual sin, and we have to endure the judgment as well as the wicked. I do believe that God judges homosexuality as grave sin.

    But what amazes me is that otherwise good Christian people rejoice in this judgment, and think it is perfectly good for us who live in this area! What—guilt by association? We live here, too, so we get the wind, the water, endure the power outages, the road closures, the added expense of getting ready for this kind of emergency, missing work, missing hours which affect our paychecks, which are already stretched to the breaking point. So just remember when God judges the wicked, we who are not wicked and live here as well, are reaping the judgment as well. How do I make someone else become a righteous person and not a wicked one? It is beyond my capability to make anyone do what God wants them to do. Am I consigned to hell with them?

  208. Nicole Aug 31st 2012

    I want to also add, that this hurricane did sit and stagnate much , much longer than most all huricanes. But there might be other reasons for that. God is in Control and HE is the one w/ all the answers not us. There are other situations that HE could have done this for. I don’t know and He has not told me.

    Like I said, many factors play in all of this and for me, I will wait and see what happens and what takes place in the near future.

    Sometimes I think we are all guilty of looking for “the end of the world” to happen. We all might be very surprised and have to live through it all much longer than we think.

    God bless you all,

  209. Chaplain Jim Sep 1st 2012

    Matter of factly, I was ministering to a small congregation of 14 (small church) last night about this same subject. You are correct in that the last straw that was broken before a big nation fell (Rome, Greece, Babylon, etc.) was when they openly embraced homosexuality as being normal. We are being judged. Look at CA with 100 earthquakes in just one 24 hour period. Look at New Orleans, the voodoo capital of the US, God is not mocked, He sends judgment upon these abominations.

  210. watcher Sep 1st 2012

    ISV: Eze 14:13 “Son of Man, when a nation sins against me by a treacherous act, I’ll reach out to oppose it, destroying its source of food, by sending famine against it, and by destroying both people and beast within it.
    Eze 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job lived in that land, they would only save their own lives on account of their righteousness,” declares the Lord GOD.
    Eze 14:15 “If I were to make wild animals pass throughout the land, so that they kill its residents and it were to become desolate because no one will travel through it due to those wild animals,
    Eze 14:16 then even though these three men were in it, as I live,” says the Lord GOD, “they wouldn’t be able to deliver even their sons or daughters. They would only save themselves, but the land would become desolate.
    Eze 14:17 “Or if I were to bring war to that land and say, ‘Hey, sword! Pass throughout the land so I can destroy both man and beasts in it,’
    Eze 14:18 though these three men lived there, as I live,” declares the Lord GOD, “they couldn’t deliver their own sons and daughters. They would only save themselves.
    Eze 14:19 “Or if I were to send a pestilence against that land and pour out my anger in it with bloodshed, destroying both man and beast in it,
    Eze 14:20 even though Noah, Daniel, and Job were among them, as I live” says the Lord GOD, “they couldn’t save their own sons or daughters. They would only save their own souls due to their own righteousness.”

  211. watcher Sep 1st 2012

    Ezekiel 14:13-20
    New International Version (NIV)

    13 “Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its people and their animals, 14 even if these three men—Noah, Daniel[a] and Job—were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign Lord.

    15 “Or if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts, 16 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.
    17 “Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, ‘Let the sword pass throughout the land,’ and I kill its people and their animals, 18 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.

    19 “Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath on it through bloodshed, killing its people and their animals, 20 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.

  212. Averyl Sep 1st 2012

    A few thoughts: –

    Jesus did not come to condemn sinners, but He did attack the self-righteous

    Even the Apostle Paul did things he didn’t want to do & didn’t do things he knew he should do, this made him feel wretched!

    He who says he has no sin deceives himself & the truth is not in him.

    Whereas some scriptures tell sinners to repent etc. to be saved, others omit the word “repent”. How can we repent or feel remorse unless the Holy Spirit helps us? Even then, we must not be surprised if we don’t get the victory over all sin in our lives this side of death, despite our desire to be pure, – because He wants us to know that our flesh is weak.

  213. Oh Pam as a fellow Brit I was devastated to hear about the chap who went to Holland. We have so much to learn about loving others and that includes a Andrew says, speaking out the truth

  214. debylynne Sep 1st 2012

    FOOLHARDY FRED- while i want to say a joyous AMEN to what you have shared because it IS the TRUTH, i am overcome with sorrow and tears BECAUSE it IS the TRUTH….what you described i.e. on larry king is EXACTLY what goes on and it is an ABSOLUTE GRIEF to the LORD…….and to me….and it has happened to me personally – being ‘rebuked’ in a discussion for standing on the Word of God – even speaking ‘lovingly’ but being rebuked by my former pastor for being too ‘hard’ on people’s sin……we touched on being ‘born again’ – i had said that the LORD declared, ‘you MUST be born again’ and this ‘pastor’ said, ‘but, HE only said it ‘once’, so that doesn’t really seem THAT important’……he’s a very ‘nice’ man and many that still continue to ‘live in their sin’ have no problem with being in his church…..can we HONESTLY believe this is what the LORD meant by ‘love them’??? i thought YOU said it very well, fred….

    “This is the false love, it is humanistic, misguided, and is seducing a good many to succumb to evil, siding with it in the face of truth, light and goodness.”

    ALAN – once again, i thank you, my brother for BOTH of these posts – thank you for speaking up. what you shared about ‘when someone says THIS, then this is what happens….etc… LORD, is that not the truth?? yes, it is.

    LIBERTY – thank you for sharing a real story concerning your sister and glorifying the LORD in doing so – thank you. i hear so many ‘hypotheticals’ about how poor sinners are made to feel badly by us ‘big bad judgmental christians’ – it is AMAZINGLY refreshing to hear TRUTH.

    john the baptist spoke OUT against sin to a man who was LOST – definitely ‘lost’ and it cost him his head and his life…..what are we AFRAID of??? death??? rejection?? not being everybody’s ‘cuddly teddy bear Christian’???

    are we REALLLLLY worried about ‘driving the sinners away’ or do we just want to be LIKED???? and seen as ‘tolerant’ and ‘compassionate’ by those of the world??…HMMMMM….

  215. debylynne Sep 1st 2012

    ibelieve (gary) amen and amen and amen

    christian journalist – again, amen and amen

    i ‘left’ this forum last night very heavy hearted – sometimes when i hear the things that are said by those that are supposed to KNOW HIM and HIS WORD and HIS HEART, i’m just devastated….that’s how i felt last night. i despised myself for even TRYING to ‘interact’ with some of what’s gone on here. (it’s like i always think if i can just get them to SEE….but to no avail, it seems)

    this afternoon when i came back and read some of the TRUTH from God’s heart that real brothers and sisters in the LORD have posted – i weep and i laugh – the LORD’S people are still HERE.

    i thank GOD for each one of you and for the ENCOURAGEMENT you give me knowing that there are still THOSE that will stand on HIS WORD and refuse to BACK DOWN. amen!!!!

  216. Martin Sep 1st 2012

    Well, after 217 replies we have the answer to Andrew’s email.

    Put simply, we’re so divided we don’t know Biblical right from Biblical wrong. Actually, the divide is much greater than this. The divide is between the 21st century church and the 1st century called-out ones.

    The 1st century called-out ones were led by the Holy Spirit, His sole purpose being to bring glory to Jesus, the Son of God. The Holy Spirit, a person of the Godhead in His own right, is ruach ha kodesh, the breath of God, or the expressed will of God on earth. He it is who directed Jesus in His ministry, and later Paul, Luke et al. He cannot do wrong! He cannot lie. He is God. He knows the mind of God.

    Should be no argument so far.

    So, if the Holy Spirit didn’t direct Jesus to condemn sinners, and He didn’t direct the 1st century called-out ones to do that, as is evidenced by the Bible delivered to us, then why are we doing it?

    Jesus’ post resurrection directive was to make disciples of all nations – He didn’t say everyone would be a disciple of His. He said, all nations, or kinds, or states, or races. He also said before those who will to come in may do so (my translation!).

    I put it to you, until the Holy Spirit draws a person from their sinful, unregenerate state, they will never come into the kingdom, never be born again. Nor will they see their lack of a saviour.

    We have a dear sister in Christ, now in her middle seventies and frail. She lives on the Black Isle near Inverness in Scotland. Every Saturday evening, and through the night, she is on the streets of Inverness, and on the railway station; she’s with alcoholics, rent boys, very young girl prostitutes, in fact the very kind of person Jesus came to. The lost. She doesn’t condemn them because of their sin – they know that bit – she shows them a loving Jesus whose arms are still outstretched in welcome to them. Willing to save to the uttermost. She lives the love of Christ for the lost, the fallen, the sick and the dying.

    It’s amazing how many of these lost souls have come to Christ through her.

    Any arguments so far?

    Why can’t we just simply follow the pattern of Jesus, the pattern of the New Testament called-out ones and do it the Lord’s way. Why must we go charging around making fools of ourselves, analysing everything to the most infinite of details.

    It’s a waste of time addressing the unredeemed with Biblical principles – they’re already in rebellion and many life it that way. Just be led of the Holy Spirit.

    In an earlier post someone mentioned Smith Wigglesworth. Years ago I knew a man close to Smith for a long time. He would walk down the aisle of a church building and the congregation would fall down under conviction. Read the accounts of Smith’s ministry in this light, and they make sense, the ministry of a man so full of God he radiated it everywhere.

    Just study the Bible, forget about the credibility which comes from claiming you know the Lord, and just immerse yourself in the Bible, the God of the Bible. Then you will have a very valid voice, but it won’t be your open.

    Argue now if you care to!

  217. Martin Sep 1st 2012

    The penultimate paragraph should read, but it won’t be your own.

    My apologies, arthritis makes the fingers a little stiff!

  218. JeffM Sep 1st 2012

    Martin, Jesus has this to say and is this ok to repeat or does it codemn sinners? Not saying that sin is wrong will only hurt people in the long run, they have to repent ( of all sin) and believe in Jesus as Lord.

    5 And He Who is seated on the throne said, See! I make all things new. Also He said, Record this, for these sayings are faithful (accurate, incorruptible, and trustworthy) and true (genuine).

    6 And He [further] said to me, It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I [Myself] will give water without price from the fountain (springs) of the water of Life.

    7 He who is victorious shall inherit all these things, and I will be God to him and he shall be My son.

    8 But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)—[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.

  219. Andrew Sep 1st 2012

    Martin – we totally agree with reaching out to gay individuals with love and compassion – to win them to Christ.

    But what we are talking about here is a MOVEMENT that is preaching to our youth worldwide.

    Now THAT is a whole different story – and requires a strong stand – still with love and wisdom.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  220. Randall Sep 1st 2012

    As a person who attended a seminar of homosexuals and ex-homosexuals who wanted to embrace wholeness, I find that the message of restoration to God the Father is being ignored today. Nearly all of the people that I talked to at that seminar shared that the restoration of God’s fatherhood was key to their correct gender orientation.

    I admit that I am upset that the voice of the ex-homosexuals is silenced today. But they know how to talk to the gay community. We need to support such people and let their voice be heard. The real hate crimes are being committed against them.

    As to the agenda, I agree with Andrew that the church has been asleep. We do have the wisdom from God, but we’ve not used it, to combat the enemy’s strategies.

    I would like to ask, what specific steps or strategies can we use to counter this world wide movement?

  221. Andrew Sep 1st 2012

    Those Ex-gay people are truly key, Randall.

    What can be done to support this group?

    Bless you!


  222. Teshuva Sep 1st 2012

    You are right.
    I have given my testimony many times here, though there is probably very, very few people who are dealing with this issue in their lives or even the lives of their children.

    Buuut, I have given it in churches too and afterwards was looked at as if I were lying to them or that what is no longer in me might just jump off on them.
    Perhaps they do not even believe in God enough to think He may do this for someone so abominable.
    There was a time that I would wonder what was going through their minds that would cause their countenance to change from one of smiles to one of fear, or dismay.

    I have been hated by some gay people, but mostly by religious folk, but one thing was always sure and meant the most to me and that was the fact that my Heavenly Father loved me, so the rest did not matter to me.

    He has placed me between two gang members who conveniently stopped in front of my house to fight.
    The M-Fing caught my ear but when I seen the fist, it was like something moved me out the door, and in between them, at which point I said if you hit him, you have to hit me. Everything stopped for a brief minute. I said again, if you hit him, you have to go through me. One of them said, Ma’am, I don’t hit ladies, and got back in his car and left, as well as the other one.
    I walked away, shaking my head, and saying , Ma’am?? a gang member said Ma’am?? I don’t hit ladies????Gang members who have the reputation of hurting anything that gets in their way?? I said to the Lord, When it was all over, what the heck was that all about? How could I have done this? Lord, you are brave with my body, but yet I have to think that love did that.
    years later, He would have me call up my ex-girlfriend, to which He would lead to come to my house.
    Before she got there, i kept asking the Lord, what do You want me to do? Please don’t let that spirit come on me, etc.. He said nothing–So in she came manifesting demons and He shuts my ears to this and then tells me that He’s got it, and for me to just support her. I would explain things to her and she would ask me again, at which point I would send her to the Lord and decrease so He could increase. I prayer for her and with her.
    She has been serving the Lord for several years now and is just as on fire now as she was in the beginning, when He got a hold to her.
    There are several others but I did what I was led to do, not on my own.
    I have asked many things of the Lord, but one of the most important things I asked was to be like Him.
    And He reminded me of that when I made a mistake to a client who came in raising Cain because her dog was put in the pound for roaming and without a rabies vaccine. So they made her pay a portion of the vaccine before they let the dog go. When she had to pay the rest of the vaccine price she went off. After 15 minutes of this I finally said something– it was not ugly, but in defense of the doctor. After she left, this is when the Lord said to me, I thought you wanted to be like Me? I said to Him I do. He then told me that He paid my debt and for me to pay hers. So I had to pay the womans vet bill.

    All I can say is this is the love of God– I could not do it in my own strength.

  223. DeWayne Sep 1st 2012

    It is true that homosexuality is not a genetic condition, being obvious a development within and of the mind.

    There is no doubt the babe is born as God created, male or female, lest mans ways of destruction cause deformity.

    In this world is where a babe begins parental love and life, a time during life where understanding of human sexuality often begins.

    Some regardless develope growing wise and mature, still remembering a time of much timidity and confusion. A time of physiological experiences at times appearing traumatic, as good a description as any.

    It is very sad that some as a babe in the world do not mature from a myriad of experiences, and continue with emotional misconceptions about sexuality. Being of the mind however then remains a condition that can see change, if done correctly.

    In days before retirement, I experienced a phenomena or condition most exasperating, having to train some in area they had earlier learned in error. It is very difficult needing first overcome and remove error from a mind, needed before a true learning may be accomplished.

  224. Ibelieve Sep 1st 2012

    This whole conversation started with a hurricane named “Isaac”. After reading the many many comments it made me feel like we were all involved in some giant spiritual hurricane ourselves.

    Its so massive, I thought what is the solution? Picketing, not quite it only festers hate and makes Christians look bad.

    In this hour it is just going to take all of us to realize we have to make the effort to seek out the Lord and follow hard after Him, “more then what we have in the past”.

    With the massive scale of hollywood, the media, the school systems, and universities, brain washing the youth about this issue;
    What could we as mere men and women do except turn to the Lord?

    “Our help comes from the Lord”

    Lord Bless,

  225. Sally Sep 1st 2012

    I haven’t yet read any of the comments, but I wanted to say to Andrew –

    This article was very well spoken, and I agree with it 100%. Thanks for the reminder! God truly loves the sinner but hates the sin, and homosexuality is truly an abomination.

    Let us speak the truth in love to them no matter how they take us. And let us speak out because of God’s love for them and that none should perish or be deceived in sin.

  226. Nicole Sep 1st 2012

    I was actually looking up some information about two teenage boys that decided to take their parents old mercedes and drive 1300 miles “to start a new life”. It occurred to me that they could possibly be exploring homosexuality or could actually be considered gay. I DO NOT KNOW. I do know that their parents gave a press release and said that the families are willing to work w/ the teenagers and that they love them greatly. —-

    This is a worldly thing happening and t.v. media, schools, churches, are promoting this as “acceptable”.

    BUT while I was looking this was on a side board of the article and there were more articles. It seems that the NAR groups have been “praying down” this weekend and hey, if they want to pray then that is great. It is all part of the PRAY AMERICA PRAY stuff that is going on here. AND that is just worth mentioning it is not what I am reporting and truly writing about. This is the article that came up.

    By the way, as I was looking at this, other sites popped up that were on MEN of GOD PROCLAIMING THAT THIS IS GOD’S JUDGEMENT UPON NEW ORLEANS. ————- UMMMM. ????????
    Southern Decadence 2012: Monkey Business

    Posted Friday, August 31st, 2012

    Isaac has come and gone, and it’ll be raining men this weekend on Bourbon and St. Ann. Southern Decadence 2012 is here for the 41st year in a row, and the official theme for this year’s fest is Peace, Love, & Hope=Monkey Dance. Grand Marshals Pat McArdle & TJ Conard invite everyone to fly high with this year’s official song, Starships by Nicki Minaj, and the festival’s charity for the year is Belle Reve.

    Publisher and Editor of Ambush Magazine Rip Naquin said the only thing Isaac affected was people’s ability to travel, but he’s still expecting a big turnout considering the circumstances. “It really affected the airport. We’re not going to get the 135,000 people we expected, but we’ll have a good turnout. Here in New Orleans, a hurricane is one thing. We were fortunate, we didn’t have the severe effects that a lot of communities had,” said Naquin. “We’re here to show tourists and locals alike a good time,” Naquin said.

    Wood Enterprises is located in the “Fruit Loop,” on the 900 block of Bourbon at St. Ann, and the company owns Lafitte’s in Exile, Raw Hide, Good Friends Bar, and the Clover Grill. General Manager Ken Grandpre said that the events Decadence are great, but people come in hoards for the unstructured portion of the evening. “The most exciting event is what happens on the streets, it’s a big street party,” Grandpre said.

    You can find the entire list of events for tonight’s Southern Decadence celebration below:

    Maybe a Little Monkey Business (The Country Club, 6pm-1am)

    Southern Decadence Welcome Party (House of Blues, 6-9pm)

    Boys on Stage on the Pole (Rainbow Room, 7pm til)

    Southern Decadence Block Party with Vendors (Phoenix, 9pm-2am)

    Lords of Leather Beer Bust (Phoenix, 9pm-2am)

    New Orleans Radical Faeries Present Prince of Perversion Ball: The Ass Menagerie (Café Istanbul, 9pm)

    Southern Decadence DJ Event (Oz, full list of performers on their website)

    Bearracuda with Live CD release party for Christeene (One Eyed Jacks, 10pm)

    BLUE MOON: The MAN Show featuring DJ Eddie Mitchell, Monster Cross & Tyriq Davenport, The Double Play (10pm)

    Dancers (Michael’s on the Park, 10pm)

    New Meat Amateur Dance Contest with $100 cash prize (The Corner Pocket, 10pm)

    Annual Official Southern Decadence Grand Marshall’s Drag Show (Golden Lantern, 11pm)

    Bleachmen Follies featuring Klorocks Bleachman & friends (Michael’s on the Park, 11pm)

    Boys on Parade hosted by Jasmine Essex and Matt B. with DJ Mike Bryant (Bourbon Pub, 12am)

    Underwear Party (Michael’s on the Park, 12am)

    Boys on Stage on the Pole Hot Body Contest (Rainbow Room, 1am)

  227. DeWayne Sep 1st 2012

    In my lifetime I have met homosexual, these in time past were usually timid, gentle, and sensitive people, rarely ‘in your face’ aggressive.

    Times and signs of this condition has changed, not the people, Satan and signs of deception are clearly more obvious.

    Concerning one experience and problem common within the Christian church today, a condition that needs change, is hearing need to ‘agreement to disagree’.

    Homosexuality and sexual error may be one of Satans greatest weapons, Christ never said we should agree to disagree on sin. Disagreements about serious error needs be discussed and discussed until corrected.

    I believe we are in a time of ‘Awake O Sleeper’, where the works of false teacher and prophet need be confronted. The true word of God if or should one know more than another, is a truth that will prove itself in time and discussion.

  228. Averyl Sep 1st 2012

    Both the Law and the Holy Spirit convict us of our sin..

    “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy”, Romans 9:16.
    We are supposed to also show mercy, patience, kindness, etc..
    In fact, it would be good for us to read the entire letter to the Romans again to remind ourselves on this subject.

    All our righteousness is as filthy rags in His sight.
    We must not be like the Pharisee who thanked God he wasn’t a sinner like other men. We need to examine ourselves, – if we think we are without sin, all we need to do is ask God to reveal it to us, & He WILL show us, (if we don’t already know).

    It is only the precious blood Christ shed for us that cleanses us & makes us acceptable in the beloved.

  229. Nicole Sep 1st 2012

    Now as you read, if you care to read the long list of lude , crude , obscene, dirty, and truly perverted things that are going on I can tell you, the hurricane did not prevent these folks from coming into the area. They might not be as many, but they will still come, and they will still party and they will still be like sodam and gohmorrah.

    I am afraid that we will see much of this. MUCH MUCH OF THIS. In weeks to come, the Lesbians are to experience “their weekend”

    By the way, if you want to learn about churches that are promoting and allowing the gays to openly proclaim, dress, and act out their sins, in churches, you can look up EMERGENT CHURCHES and Mark Driscoll, Bill HYbels, Willowcreek Community Church, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, and these are just Pastors and leaders that are promoting , allowing and not teaching the sins of the their ways as SINS.

    It started years ago, but just recently it was through Rob Bell and others that promoted it and it is now at the pulpit. Our kids go to conventions and they see this stuff and come back w/ it. T.D. Jakes is now involved in some of this stuff, as is Ed Young, Jr. and others.

    Do the research and find out. You can go to Apprising Ministries and look up the arcives or you can go to Deceptions in the Church which is Sandy Simpson’s website. Even Chrystal Witt has info and on the side of her website there are other websites you can gather information from. It is under Emergent Church, Contemplative Prayer and other subtitles.

    May the Truth HIS TRUTH be told and May those that are not seeing, may we continue to stand in the gap for them and pray . It will be God that opens their eyes , when and if He chooses, because He knows their hearts.

  230. Nicole Sep 1st 2012

    I am just now catching up on the “today’s news”

    Here is another “portion” of an article. Of coarse these are , I presume heathens and not of the Lord, but the point is, it makes local news and people read it and they think it is “cool” It is o.k. if my son wears a dress and walks around publically. It is in the churches. I have seen it.

    Here is the portion of the article. NOTICE he is HAILED AS A “HERO” OR ROLE MODEL.


    Nils Pickert’s 5-year-old son likes wearing dresses. If anyone thinks that’s odd they can take it up with Nils. He’s the guy in the skirt.

    The German dad has become a role model not only for his son, but for parents around the world, after a photograph of the pair holding hands in red skirts spread across the internet.
    “Yes, I’m one of those dads, that tries to raise their children equal,” he explained in an essay published alongside the photo in Emma, a German feminist magazine.

  231. Sharon Sep 1st 2012

    I agree with many replies, including the one written by “The Dude.” The gospel of Christ is that Jesus died for everyone so those who are chosen can have a righteous relationship with the Father. All sin is sin. All sin can be forgiven, except blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

    We are called to speak the truth in love. This applies to unbelievers as well as believers. If Christians, as the bride of Christ, don’t start repenting of our sins, how can we expect sinners to do the same? Various people addressed this by pointing out that judgment begins in the church.

    While I agree that homosexuality needs to be addressed as sin, so does adultery, murder (hate), gossip, stealing (including time spent on useless activities instead of relationship with the Lord), etc. This is all part of the last days.

    2 Tim. 3:1-5:
    2Ti 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
    3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
    3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
    3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
    3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

    The real question is: How do we speak the truth in love?

  232. David Sep 1st 2012

    I guess the man who sells stones must be doing a good job, christians seem to throw a lot of them at people. My sons have a friend who is gay, they tell me he has being like that ever since they have known him back in primary school. So why is he that way, well it is just possible that it has something to do with the fall, and the corruption of the flesh and so they believe they are what the are simple fact is I am not God and I dont know and since i am not as righteous as most christians I have no right to judge them I cant even judge myself correctly..

    And no i have no problems at upsetting Christans only those who walk in truth could ever understand.

    In All His Love

    PS I dont expect this post to last long

  233. Concerning homosexuality, I do not believe we are born evil or sinners, the bible tells me we are created or nit together in the womb by God [Isa 44:2, Ps 139:13].

    God does not create evil, instead seeking return to innocents as He created, himself taking on the sin of man to provide grace for those able to receive.

    David in a funk said “I was sinful at birth” [Ps 51:5-6], however this was an emotional statement, we are not sinful at birth, but born in flesh bent to sin, a new and innocent soul beginning life.

    Verse more accurate of God’s creation, concerning the flesh we are born into, is Ps 58:3 saying… (From) birth the wicked go astray.

    It is apparent with the knowledge of Good and Evil, and with the deception of Satan, eventually we in our flesh are bent (to sin).

  234. David…
    As school itself is evident, we learn, as accurately from birth or babe we begin learning of our sexuality.

    As school again is a strong point, some learn differently than others, some carry a learning disability or error into adult life.

    Life itself as we are created is no mystery, and in life we all have areas of certainty. I may call myself a garage, there are some no doubt that would believe me. The truth is that I am not a garage.

  235. Amen! My husband and I are enjoying so much your articles and sermons. You are so refreshing! Thank you God!

    I have a question for you and your wife? Have you found it difficult to find fellowship with like-minded believers?

    We listened to your sermon this evening on your testimony and how God dealt with you. God has been leading us down a very similar path. It seems a little lonely at times. We find it hard to relate to even people in our own church We are trying to guard against being legalistic or prideful, but at the same time… why does it seem like you can only find like-minded people on the internet or ‘way down’ in some other country, etc.?

    Why does it seem that God doesn’t allow you to find people to relate to right in your own country/church, etc?

    It may seem off topic and I am not trying to derail the topic, but it does relate to standing up for truth.

    I wish you’d do a teaching on that……..sometimes it just feels like being a Noah (sadly at times a silent one) is so lonely.. You can take it from the world, but when even believers in your own church seem asleep..well, that’s hard.

  236. Stephen St. Louis Sep 1st 2012

    Topics like this make me glad that, no matter how many twists and turns will occur in the final plot line of history, I know how the story ends.

    I liked that quote from Ray Comfort 100 or so posts ago. They aren’t going to Hell because of their homosexuality. They’re going to Hell because of their unbelief.

    I also like the example of Wigglesworth. The Spirit convicts and sinners repent and you don’t have to do anything except what God tells you. It really is how it is supposed to work. Look at Peter at Pentecost. His message wasn’t complicated or fine sounding but the Spirit took it and drove it home and 3000 got saved that day. Seems like a few more of us need to spend 40 some odd days on our knees before God. Then maybe we can turn things around. Then again maybe we’ll just end up martyrs. Personally, I’m ok with either. Option 1 turns the world upside down. Option 2 leaves it behind for Glory. Sounds like a win win to me. You want to stop their agenda? Best way to take a stand is on your knees. Then, when, where and how, the Spirit directs, preach the same message Peter did until they take away your freedom of speech and toss you in jail.

  237. There is verse that speaks to a carnal nature in judging, neither in the will nor fulfilling the purpose of God…
    Matt 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.”

    Yet there is a time for a Christian to mature, verse warns about this. The verse about spiritual (mature) man concerning this need in service fulfilling God’s will and purpose…
    1 Cor 2:15 “The spiritual man makes judgments about all things…”

    This above is not the eternal and final judgment ending in destruction within the Lake of Fire.

    About judging the bible instructs us saying…
    1 Cor 6:2-3 “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?
    …Do you not know that we will judge angels?”

  238. Responce to way above…
    In the business world, when a job is seriously needed be accomplish, a exec or mgr has tendency to look around for the busiest person, these are the people that do and complete a task.

    Prayer is very important, however the bible assures that gifts of authority and ability have been provided the church, the church that will carry out the works of our Lord.

    I believe the key word here is ‘work’, and don’t wonder why the bible says in Matt 9:39 that ‘the workers are few’… there comes a time to get out of the closet.

  239. Foolhardy Fred Sep 1st 2012

    Jeremiah 17:9

    King James Version (KJV)

    9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

  240. Foolhardy Fred Sep 1st 2012

    Jeremiah 17:9

    King James Version (KJV)

    9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

  241. Foolhardy Fred Sep 1st 2012

    When Christ Himself was judged by His antagonists, He said:

    “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24).

    Surely our Lord indicated by these words that His hearers should judge—fairly and rightly, though “hypocrites” (as in Matt. 7:1-5 above) should take care not to judge at all.

    In I Corinthians 6:2,3, the Apostle declares that believers will one day “judge the world” and will even “judge angels,” basing upon this fact his exhortation that they should be able to judge in matters pertaining to this life (Ver. 3) and reproving them for their inability “to judge the smallest matters” (Ver. 2). And in Verse 5, as we have seen, he speaks to their shame that there is not even one among them who is spiritual enough, and therefore respected enough, to judge between his brethren.

    Thus God calls upon His people, not merely to judge others, but to be such as are qualified, morally and spiritually, to judge in matters concerning truth and error or right conduct and wrong.

    Thus he instructs Timothy and Titus, both truly spiritual men of God, to act in situations in which it is necessary to judge.

    To Timothy he writes:

    “Them that sin4 rebuke before all, that others also may fear” (I Tim. 5:20).

    And again:

    “…reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine” (II Tim. 4:2).

  242. ValleyAnt Sep 1st 2012

    Andrew, thanks for this second article which clarifies the other one. I agree with you.

    I started to write a simple and short comment on this topic, but I feel moved to give glory, honor, and praise to God in the midst of this issue of homosexuality. Thank God for this topic and issue, but may Jesus be exalted to His place in relation to it. Amen.

    Two years ago, when I was homeless and went to Atlanta’s Task Force for the Homeless (homeless shelter), though I accepted and was friendly with all, the homosexuals noticed me at once and started a war against me. I didn’t oppose them as I didn’t feel moved to, but the Spirit of Christ felt differently. There were hundreds of men in that shelter, but when I came, the atmosphere began to crackle with GREAT violence (and I didn’t do anything but mope about being homeless while reaching out to others); the air groaned like an old ship caught in a long storm; the atmosphere protested and sighed and moen and heaved like waves of the sea (and “there is no rest for the wicked”); near-riots began to protest my presence there.

    The homosexuals, as if I hated them, vowed over and over to me to have me put out the shelter and went about turning people against me, testifying falsely at every Tuesday and Friday meeting against me to the leaders through whom the Jezebel spirit, with the allowance of Ahab, had uncontested rule over the entire shelter. Though the homosexuals had turned the lower level leaders against me, with the demonic trying to give me strokes and cardiac arrests and a nervous breakdown (my blood pressure shot up for the midst rong in my life), with people threatening to kill me (which didn’t stop me from sleeping peacefully at nights), with the demonic there protesting and telling me to leave them alone, with the atmosphere literally trying to VOMIT me out, and though the Jezebel-Ahab duo didn’t want me around, the Lord performed miracle after miracle in order to keep me safely at that shelter till God’s work was done. In the end, every single one who opposed me suffered consequences, I was left untouched, and Jezebel and Ahab and Homosexuality shut their mouths and were bound till God was finished. This is the Testimony of His superior might against giants that gather against God and Christianity to intimidate and disquiet. There is no weapon that satan has against these testimonies which overcome his lies.

    That’s long enough. Wish I could share more but didn’t even know I was going to share this (yep, I’m on my phone; lol). Natalie Grant’s ‘Your Great Name’ ( motivated me and reminded me that in all things, God must be glorified. Amen. The point of the story: thank God for our willingness to oppose what God opposes and receive what He receives, but the greater truth must remain that none of these things move Him and that when His Kingdom is present, then the enemy’s pride is exposed as pretension, and every high thing exalting itself against God must fall down, homosexuality included. There is a more excellent way. May God be remembered and glorified through Christ and because of Him forever. Amen.

  243. Foolhardy Fred Sep 1st 2012

    1 Thessalonians 5:21

    Prove (JUDGE) all things; hold fast that which is good.

    – King James Bible “Authorized Version”, Pure Cambridge Edition

  244. ValleyAnt Sep 1st 2012

    There goes my phone’s spell checker. Lol. Too lazy to get up and use the laptop. It’s night in the States, and I should be sleeping! Dear phone, in spite of you, may God be glorified :) Amen.

  245. Martin Sep 1st 2012

    Andrew, if we’re not lead of the Holy Spirit and responding to Him surely we’re working in the flesh.

    Nothing of flesh prospers us spiritually, nor anyone else.

    That we have this current epidemic of homosexuality, and all the other nasties which flow from it, is utterly deplorable; not the least because our young people are being taught it’s OK to be gay, but without the knowledge of spiritual and fleshly consequences. Yes, my heart bleeds for the monumental insult we offer our crucified saviour, a continuing insult of sheer unbelief. I’m staggered when I consider what people have forsaken in order to believe a convenient lie.

    Yet, if the Holy Spirit is not leading Christians to act against this awful tide, then anything we do will be in our own flesh and burned up on the day.

    I’m quite sure Jesus’ heart ached for the insult the religious of His day offered the Father; ached because of unbelief in God the Father and the Son, and trusting in the Law for salvation. Yet, if we are disciples of His, followers, we must follow His example and be led of the Spirit, the same Spirit which led Him.

    Now, I’m not implying we should do nothing. But I am saying, allow our efforts to be directed, targeted and they will prosper spiritually.

    What should we do? Make all effort to pray in fifty, or a hundred or more souls, and then go where we’re led and do it. When we draw in the net we will be amazed at the catch.

  246. Ibelieve Sep 1st 2012

    ABOVE QUOTE ; Now as you read, if you care to read the long list of lude , crude , obscene, dirty, and truly perverted things that are going on I can tell you, UNQUOTE

    Did not to look at (once I understood what you were printing), or care to read the garbage you printed.

    This is something a Christian should be avoiding at all cost.
    Shame on the one who printed it!!!

  247. BTRrk Sep 1st 2012

    When a person does right, people will begin to persecute him. It may, very sadly, even happen right inside the church.

    Amos 5:10 (KJV)
    (10) They hate him that rebuketh in the gate, and they abhor him that speaketh uprightly.

    One can almost gauge a person’s ways by how he/she loves the Word of God, for “out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.” Always maintain your life with God.

    Jude 1:20-23 (KJV)
    (20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, (21) Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (22) And of some have compassion, making a difference: (23) And others SAVE WITH FEAR, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

    Abhor the sin in a person’s life. Yet, love the person trapped in sin having compassion of some, making a difference and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire…

  248. Foolhardy Fred Sep 1st 2012

    In Paul’s well-known passage on the Lord’s Supper, he warns against partaking of this sacred memorial in an unworthy manner (I Cor. 11:27), as some of the Corinthians were indeed doing. “Let a man examine himself,” he says, “and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup” (Ver. 28).

    Indeed, it was because they had been so irresponsible in this matter that it had become necessary for God to discipline them. Many among them were “weak and sickly,” and some had even been taken away in death (Ver. 30). This would not have been necessary, the Apostle declares, if they had judged themselves (Vers. 31,32), each one carefully examining himself in the presence of the Lord so that he might be in the proper spiritual condition to celebrate the death of Christ for sin. Concluding his remarks about living so that they could partake of this remembrance in a worthy and sincere manner, he says:

    “For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

    “But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world” (I Cor. 11:31,32).

    Whatever one’s dispensational views of the celebration of the Lord’s death at “the Lord’s table,” all of us should surely take the Apostle’s exhortation here to heart. If we would judge ourselves God would not have to discipline us for our irresponsibility and we would be in a better position to serve Him as those who are truly spiritual.

    We need to be keenly aware, of course, that the mere fact that a man judges others does not of itself indicate that he is truly spiritual. Indeed, one who judges himself and is truly spiritual will not be quick, reluctant, in fact, to judge others. Yet, should it not be our desire to be truly spiritual so that we might correctly “judge all things” (I Cor. 2:15) and, thus judging, “stand” for what is Scriptural and right and “withstand” what is unscriptural and wrong, even when, in so doing, it is necessary to withstand those who teach or practice what is unscriptural and wrong?

    Away, then, with the use of such passages as II Timothy 2:24 and Matthew 7:1 merely as excuses for irresponsibility and for the criticism of those who seek to stand true to God and His Word. Let us rather consider prayerfully all that God says about judging, that we might truly please and honor Him.

    God requires faithfulness to HIS WORD above all else and has done since the Garden of Eden account of the entrance of rebellion into the history of mankind.

  249. Peter Hudson Sep 1st 2012

    Now this is going from the absurd to the ridiculous regarding same sex, homosexuality, and blantanly lets do our own thing in the sight of God, where anything now goes and who cares. The explanations are fingers up at God Almighty, and yes, not only are we living as in the Days of Noah, we are living as in the Days of Sodom and Gomorrah.
    To say not, you might as well join those who are saying “I don’t really care.”
    Well, the JUDGEMENT OF ALMIGHTY GOD is here whether we like to pooh, pooh, it and disagree.
    Having said this, may I suggest you read the following which is happening in the country of Brazil.
    This is disgusting
    As believers already shared on this web site it is going from bad to worse.
    And YES, we are living in the END TIMES, if you have not already noticed.
    Seek the Lord while you can and as so many believers have already shared…GO YE …and preach the Good News and call people to REPENTANCE.
    If John the Baptist did this WHY CAN’T YOU …to those who are reading my comments.

  250. Colin Sep 1st 2012

    Oh Boy things are escalating.
    I will do another John the Baptist shout in agreement with Peter H

  251. BTRrk Sep 1st 2012

    In a time when everything in the world seems to be related to vanity, God is depending on His believing children to demonstrate that He is the great Reality; that we are made by God and for Him! It is important for Christian believers to be able to stand firmly and positively in this declaration: “Thus saith the Lord!” Our chief business is not to argue or to persuade our generation. With our positive declaration of God’s Word and revelation, we make God responsible for the outcome. No one can know enough to go beyond this!

  252. How I wish I was as good as the people posting on here.

    We are ALL sinners, some find life harder than others. God is the only judge – I feel a lot of hatred and fear is “preached” about homosexuality. Gives the ego a boost sometimes perhaps…………..sorry, got to be honest here!

  253. Nicole Sep 1st 2012

    Here is some good news for those that are concerned about Louisianna.

    Floodwaters recede, power comes on and businesses open ahead of the holiday weekend, as the state begins to rebuild after Hurricane Isaac.


    That is from this mornings Fox News Report.

    Other areas are experiencing flooding though and there is much needed clean up, many are hurting and many are w/o electricity still. Still hundreds of thousands w/o electricity.

    Many , MANY people from Texas, and the surrounding areas left in caravans to go help w/ clean up,. Churches from Houston, San Antonio, Dallas, and Austin have come together w/ supplies to take in those areas.

    As far as this subject, or the articles. This is what is happening in the “world” . BUT I do know for a fact, that it has entered into the churches here in the states. It is preached that same sex attractions are O.K. and all is welcomed. There are Christian Apologetics Websites that talk about this and also list the people /groups/ and churches that have entered into this deception.

  254. debylynne Sep 1st 2012

    andrew’s post:
    “Martin – we totally agree with reaching out to gay individuals with love and compassion – to win them to Christ.

    But what we are talking about here is a MOVEMENT that is preaching to our youth worldwide.

    Now THAT is a whole different story – and requires a strong stand – still with love and wisdom.”

    and therein is a BIG part of the ‘communication breakdown’ on this forum and this issue – we are talking TWO issues here – TWO – this was said earlier in this thread but it doesn’t seem to be heeded – i don’t think there is ONE GENUINE BELIEVER in JESUS CHRIST that believes we are supposed to ‘attack and beat down homosexuals with our ‘words’ or otherwise!

    a lot of this ‘arguing’ is simply refusal to LISTEN. we are talking about dealing with a ‘MOVEMENT’ – an ‘AGENDA’ of the enemy of ALL – our adversary AND ‘theirs’ – only they don’t know what we know about him……..

    whether ANY ‘natural disaster’ is a judgment of God or not, we cannot ABSOLUTELY know, i don’t think – the Word of God clearly indicates that some ‘judgments’ WILL be in this ‘form’, but whether what has been happening in our country of the U.S.A. in the last several years is actually ‘judgments’ of God being acted out – HE KNOWS.

    we live in ‘tornado alley’ – i know what it is to be SURROUNDED by ‘mayhem’ and people being killed (all around us) and much destruction – we actually named our little piece of property (a pecan orchard) here ‘the land of goshen’ – during the terrible time last year when we almost constantly ‘assaulted’ by tornadoes – because all we felt we could do was ask the LORD for protection – that IF He were enacting ‘judgment’, or even if He WASN’T, that HE would ‘COVER US’ with His hand – and, He did.

    i was NOT glad that others suffered – i hate it and i am so sorry – but we were THANKFUL for His protection.

    let’s just remember that we are NOT speaking of dealing with ‘individual sinners’ here, as andrew has tried to point out – when the LORD gives us the opportunity to speak to ANYONE who is lost, i truly believe that each one of us that KNOWS Him and has known His mercy and forgiveness reaches out to them with compassion but an ABSOLUTE REFUSAL to DENY His Word and His judgments in order to seem more ‘loving’ and ‘accepting’. to do so, would be anathema to anyone who truly LOVES HIM AND HIS WORD…….

    thank you for your words, foolhardy fred and several others……

    i thought on what martin had to say in an earlier post about his friend that goes out to ‘minister’ – amen – these are the actions of a TRUE follower of Jesus Christ……

    but, can i share one more thing??? because we live in the ‘bible belt’ and our churches are FILLED with ‘members’, (i did NOT say ‘believers’) i see something that has happened OVER AND OVER AND OVER again…..
    people are ‘welcomed in warmly’ – to a great extent their ‘sin’ is NOT addressed – they BELIEVE themselves to be ‘just fine’ as they are (after all, they got BAPTIZED, didn’t they??? or they ‘joined the church’ didn’t they????) and they march cheerfully OFF TO HELL without EVER being ‘born again’ – yet, believing themselves to be ‘accepted and loved by God’ IN THEIR CONTINUING SIN.

    WHY DO THEY BELIEVE THIS??? because ‘Christians’ do NOT tell them otherwise……..what we call ‘love’ is sometimes HATE…..NOT the ‘love’ which lays down its’ life and speaks the truth – even when it may very well mean our ‘rejection’ by these we are trying to help.

    perhaps it isn’t this way where you live and perhaps that is why we see things somewhat ‘differently’ but we have been faced over and over and over again with people that believe they ‘are on their way to heaven’ while their lives scream something else entirely……and it is CLEARLY ‘evident’ that they do NOT know Him…..IF you truly LOVE people for HIS sake – you HAVE TO TELL THEM THE TRUTH… LOVE…..always.

  255. a farmer Sep 1st 2012


    If you go to your doctor and he diagnosis you with a life-threatening condition, does that mean he hates you?

  256. KathyG. Sep 1st 2012

    Job 36:9 – he tells them what they have done- that they have sinned arrogantly. 10. He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil. verse 12: But if they do not listen, they will perish by the sword.
    In the book, The True and False Revival, pg.80 Andrew Strom writes “the most precious thing in the earth is people.”
    I have to stop and say that there is a “warning” here about homosexuality through one of God’s prophets.
    Proverbs 10:17 – (TLB) Anyone WILLING to be CORRECTED is on the pathway to life. Anyone REFUSING has lost his chance.
    In Proverbs, these truths give counsel which helps both to prevent and to correct ungodly lifestyles. Wisdom helps us to discern between good and evil, “truth and error.” The essence of “truth” sets before us the one right way, God’s way, as our opportunity to be set free.
    In some of the comments above, I hear, “I feel” which we should not be led by feelings instead, by the Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 2:4 – For we speak as messengers from God, trusted by him to tell the truth; we change his message not one bit to suit the taste of those who hear it; for we serve God alone, who examines our hearts deepest thoughts.
    I see you Andrew Strom “warning” the people in
    “love” so that they will not perish by the sword.
    Proverbs 10:10 -sin leads to sorrow, bold reproof leads to peace.
    I would think that Christians would be open to “spiritual wisdom” than have the Lord say “in vain I punished your people; they did not respond to correction.”Jeremiah 2:30.
    We have a choice and Yes we can “miss the opportunity.” Luke 8:18 – Therefore consider carefully how you listen.
    Be blessed :)

  257. Ibelieve Sep 1st 2012


    Good comment.

    I think what you stated about the churches is happening everywhere you go.

    Sadly if anyone says anything to warn others we have some that start yelling “that’s judging”.

    I guess they think we should never say anything but just discuss sports and music awards. :)

    Lord Bless,

  258. JeffM Sep 1st 2012

    I do not see how you can win this fight against a worldwide social “movement” and not be trying to make a christian world culture.It sounds like Christian Dominionism. There is only one gospel message for all people and one way for all to be saved and forgiven, Jesus.Jesus can not control the worlds culture , they won’t do what He says.So we can not do His Will and also try to make society into what we think would be better.This is like trying to make something that is half way to Christ’s kingdom , it is not our mandate from the Word of God. Doesn’t the bible say if anyone is in Christ they can not keep sinning? This is what The Lord wants.

    1 John 3:9

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

  259. Mark Andrew Sep 1st 2012

    JeffM, The preaching of the gospel is meant to impact society. The early church turned the world upside down. If that is what is meant by “dominionism”, then I say bring it on! “Dominionism” is surely wrong only if it means something other than this?

  260. debylynne Sep 1st 2012

    jeffm – perhaps i am not ‘understanding’ what you are saying…..did paul NOT speak out against ‘deception’ that was being promoted both outside and WITHIN the church??? did he NOT say to the church at ephesus that he had not STOPPED warning them day and night for THREE years with TEARS about those that would rise up among them to deceive??

    is ‘preaching’ not about ‘withstanding evil’ with the TRUTH as well as ‘promoting the good news’ – did paul not ‘name names’ when it came to those that were NOT true believers but were seeking to do those that WERE – harm??

    it is as if some are saying we are ONLY to preach the message of salvation and i agree WITH MY WHOLE HEART that THIS IS OUR MESSAGE – the ‘message of JESUS CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED’ ……but, does that mean that we are to ‘hold our peace’ while the ‘less knowing’ are fed a line of deception straight from the ‘pit of hell’??

    i don’t think it IS a ‘social movement’….i believe it is a ‘pit of hell’ movement……

    am i misunderstanding??

    as i said, perhaps i’m NOT understanding what you mean?? i’m certainly NOT attacking it – but something seems ‘missing’ to me in this ‘view’.

  261. debylynne Sep 1st 2012

    the ‘dominionism’ movement believes, as i am sure most on here know, that ‘we’ will subdue and ‘christianize’ the world and then tell the LORD He ‘can come back now’ cause we’ve got everything ‘under control and ready for him’…………

    to preach and speak out against DECEPTION in whatever ‘form’ it takes is to WARN WARN WARN and EXPOSE the LIE to those that we are LONGING to see be ‘saved’ before it IS too late….as well as to WARN foolish believers who seem willing to ‘swallow’ anything that comes down the pike if it ‘SOUNDS good and sweet and loving and merciful’……

    isn’t it?? aren’t the ‘weaker brethren’ (less mature, perhaps??) our responsibility, as well as the LOST??? isn’t it our job to warn all???

  262. debylynne Sep 1st 2012

    i’m sorry – i don’t think i was CLEAR.

    what i mean by ‘warn’ is to OPPOSE these ‘moves’ of the enemy – openly and verbally, as well as on our knees…….

  263. a farmer Sep 1st 2012

    We are truly in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, “AMONG WHOM YOU APPEAR AS LIGHTS IN THE WORLD.” (Phil. 2:15)

    Light has a definite effect on darkness.

    Excellent words, debylynne. [Wish I could buy some of your pecans!]

  264. JeffM Sep 1st 2012

    Mark Andrew,
    The preaching of the gospel is meant to impact a person, to repent and believe in Jesus as Lord . Society can not repent and believe in Jesus. Religions will try to control the culture but it is just man using religion to rule in the place of God, claiming they are doing it for God.Turning the world upside down meant that they caused trouble everywhere, calling sin “wrong” does cause trouble.

    In my mind Christ’s Kingdom and the Christian Religion are not the same thing.

  265. debylynne Sep 1st 2012

    i apologize for so many posts in a row :-/ but there is something the LORD just brought to my eyes that i BELIEVE is applicable here to what we are discussing as pertains to our ‘speaking up for the sake of the weak, the foolish, the unknowing……THEY are ‘victims’, too, aren’t they?? it isn’t ‘just’ about reaching the ‘gays’ for the LORD, but, also the ones that these lies are being ‘fed to’ through these ‘demonic agendas via the tv, the media, even churches and ‘pastors’ – doesn’t the LORD desire us to speak UP for their sakes???

    Psalm 82
    God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
    He judges among the gods.

    2 How long will you judge unjustly,
    And show partiality to the wicked? Selah

    3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
    Do justice to the afflicted and needy.

    4 Deliver the poor and needy;
    Free them from the hand of the wicked.

    5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
    They walk about in darkness;
    All the foundations of the earth are unstable.

  266. debylynne Sep 1st 2012

    well, here i am again!!

    jeffm – ‘society’ is made up of PEOPLE, right?? many who are being deceived and led astray by this ‘demonic agenda’ – i believe i understand what you saying – that we are to ‘preach the gospel’ and hopefully they will believe and be ‘saved’ – but is NOT ‘exposing and denouncing the lies’ (as did martin luther) part of our calling, as well??

    thank you, farmer, i wish you could, too!!

  267. JeffM Sep 1st 2012

    debylynne, If the Lord told you or anyone to oppose the devil’s latest scheme,then do what He told you to do. If it is your idea then forget it.

    Dominionists think the world will be a better place if christians run things, but that makes them become the world.

  268. debylynne Sep 1st 2012

    having been part of the ‘dominionist’ camp for many years and, yet, for the most part, ‘ignorant’ of what they were ACTUALLY ‘promoting’, i understand completely what you are saying concerning their ‘purpose’ and i agree with you – it is NOT truth that they are promoting OR operating in…..

    ok – thanks for answering me.

  269. Mark Andrew Sep 1st 2012

    You say,

    “The preaching of the gospel is meant to impact a person, to repent and believe in Jesus as Lord . Society can not repent and believe in Jesus.”

    I agree that the decision to repent and believe in Jesus can only be made at the individual level – but also allowing for the possibility of mass salvations. But “society” is really just the sum of all individuals, and will surely change if large enough number of them repent.

    I would add that, because of our individualistic mindset in the West, we can forget that God is also concerned with the nations.

  270. JeffM Sep 1st 2012

    Mark Andrew , I know that as you obey Jesus you will see a change in the people around you. They do seem “better” from a human perspective. But to God they are still lovers of evil. You might get them to “not do” some things you can’t stand, but they are still in rebellion to Christ.So I don’t think you can add the ones that obey, to the ones that refuse to obey The Lord, and then it equals a better society.The Lord doesn’t want a better world, He wants people to leave it all behind and follow Jesus.So the world might look better to us, but not to God who claims it all and won’t settle for less than His Will in all things. You still have just light and just darkness even with half the people being saved.

    John 3:20-21

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    20 For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works (his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved.

    21 But he who practices truth [who does what is right] comes out into the Light; so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are—wrought with God [divinely prompted, done with God’s help, in dependence upon Him].

  271. ValleyAnt Sep 2nd 2012

    Debylynne questioned if we’re to keep silent on issues of sin, and Fred talked about judging too quickly. These things find solution and clarity in what Paul wrote– that all things are to be done in order (a hard thing online) and that we “judge nothing before the time… UNTIL the Lord comes.”

    Isaiah said, concerning those who are to speak or judge ‘now’, “You who make mention of the LORD, do not keep silent…” There are watchmen and prophets given a mouth to speak, and they are not to keep silent on issues like this. But also, “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.”

    Regarding judging nothing before the time, “the Lord comes” to some before others, and they can seem to judge ahead of others because they see or hear ahead of others. However, to judge (see or hear) before or more than others doesn’t mean one is condemning in their judgments (their speaking from hearing or seeing).

    Regarding what Christians should do about this and that, we are all different and gifted differently, therefore, let the ears of the Body continue to hear, the eyes to see, the mouths to speak (intercessors to God, prophets to the people, and watchmen to both), the hands to work, the feet to go: let those who wait wait, those who fly fly, those who run run, those who walk walk. Online, not much will make sense; but as God brings the Body together, each part doing its part will finally be good (be acceptable, make sense) to each one, and this joining together of the Body will begin to have noticeable effect among both believers and in the world. So, intercessors should pray more and more for the coming together of the different parts of the Body in different locales. The enemy’s system and people function very well because of their unity. Christ already has greater power than the enemy and ALL authority, but unity of brethren is missing to give evidence of this: “When brethren dwell together in unity… there the LORD commands the blessing– [great Grace]” (Ps. 133). Amen.

  272. Donna Sep 2nd 2012

    I have some cousins that were brought up in a pentecostal church that are now gay. One even became a minister after attending a bible college and is very talented musically and knows how to lead people. He then left his beautiful wife and three children because he is gay. Recently he and his brother who is also gay have found pentecostal churches that minister to gays and condone it, so what can I say. I feel bad but they know the scriptures but have found pentecostal groups that condone it and now he has a group of ministers that encourage each other with their twisiting of scriptures to condone it. One gay minister even saying that a eunich for the gospel’s sake means they are gay.

  273. a farmer Sep 2nd 2012

    I question why the top criterion for some is that the homosexual FEEL loved, first and foremost.

    God is Love; the God Whose image is completely defaced in their minds. How then can they recognize Love? Jesus said the darkness did not comprehend the Light. How can abominable “love” comprehend Holy Love?

    Love to the homosexual is acceptance. Is this where churches are falling?—they extend so much acceptance in an effort to convey “love,” that they becosme snared trying to make their acceptance acceptable? Jesus didn’t do this. He constantly said things to weed out the insincere (such as, “Eat My flesh”).

    As I said earlier, I have seen testimony of the amazing transformation from the homosexual mindset to the Holy Spirit-controlled mindset, but it has come through the Holy Spirit’s sovereign work of the fear of God on the heart.

    “The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever.” (Ps. 19:9)

  274. JeffM Sep 2nd 2012

    a farmer , I see the acceptance problem on a much bigger scale . All the churches do things to appear loving but they all reject what Jesus says in order to do it. Jesus said we are to worship in Spirit and in Truth. But anyone who walks in the door is invited to join in the worship of The Lord.It would make people feel bad to be told you are not true worshipers so you can’t join us, so they are all welcomed. But it is not right to treat the Lord that way.So church worship has become worship without obedience to The Holy Spirit so that anyone can join you, it is wrong. The meeting together of the believers has been replaced with having “church”.

  275. debylynne Sep 2nd 2012

    valleyant – there is a lot of wisdom in what you shared. a lot. while we are ALL called to be ‘witnesses’ we are not ALL the same part (function) of the body – amen – this is truth…….

    donna – what sorrow and grief this must be – so sorry for your family – and i FEAR for those that tell these in bondage that ‘it is well’ for them – merciful GOD – help us.

    farmer – i have contemplated the same things – what IS this ‘love’ that we are speaking of??? how do we ‘speak the truth in LOVE’ – will it be recognized as ‘love’ by those that do not know Him?? i actually think this passage is directed at the BODY OF CHRIST……

    Ephesians 4
    11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

    can the lost even ‘recognize’ this ‘love’ that is of GOD – i came to the LORD because i heard a message that exposed my ‘lost state’ to me – the ‘fear of the LORD’ came upon me……i had always felt ‘drawn’ to this Jesus as a child, but as an adult, living in sin, it WAS the fear of judgment that MOVED me from lost to ‘born again’ – and i came to know HIM and to LOVE HIM and to KNOW HIS GREAT LOVE FOR ME – but it WAS the ‘fear of the LORD’ that brought me to repentance…….

  276. Mark Andrew Sep 2nd 2012

    I can’t say I disagree with you, but I think we may be talking about different things. From Scripture it is clear that God judges both individuals and nations. I think you are referring to the judgment of individuals based on how their hearts stand before God. I am really thinking about the judgement of nations. In Scripture it also says that righteousness exalts a nation. I don’t think that means that 100% of its individuals are properly saved.

  277. RevivalSeeker Sep 2nd 2012

    Hello Andrew,

    I would recommend you to visit Julio Severo’s blog at . He is a Christian Brazilian blogger who has currently to live in the underground in an undisclosed country because, according to what he writes, both the Brazilian and the American government are persecuting him only because he is blogging against homosexuality (not against homosexuals, just about what is wrong with homosexuality).

  278. JeffM Sep 2nd 2012

    Mark Andrew, well if you are talking about America then we are right back to where all this started, it is too late to stop judgement. I see the Lord slowly wearing down America’s strength. What comes next may be worse for everyone though. The move to have a global fascist type government is very powerfull.

  279. Roger Sep 2nd 2012

    Valleyant, I have quoted a part of what you said above: Isaiah said, concerning those who are to speak or judge ‘now’, “You who make mention of the LORD, do not keep silent…” There are watchmen and prophets given a mouth to speak, and they are not to keep silent on issues like this. But also, “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.”

    Regarding judging nothing before the time, “the Lord comes” to some before others, and they can seem to judge ahead of others because they see or hear ahead of others. However, to judge (see or hear) before or more than others doesn’t mean one is condemning in their judgments (their speaking from hearing or seeing).

    Regarding what Christians should do about this and that, we are all different and gifted differently, therefore, let the ears of the Body continue to hear, the eyes to see, the mouths to speak (intercessors to God, prophets to the people, and watchmen to both), the hands to work, the feet to go: let those who wait wait, those who fly fly, those who run run, those who walk walk.

    I say Amen – understanding to these truths may come at different times to each one of us, Praise God that we may all understand :-)

    In His love,

  280. Peter Sep 2nd 2012

    Hi Andrew, again you are right.
    If we see God’s law through the veil, that is , the flesh, we see it as a rod for our backs.
    When we crucify our flesh with it’s lust’s and desires, the veil is taken away, and we can see God’s law as it really is, a lamp to our feet.
    I welcome judgement on myself, as that means I can get justice from God against the enemy, if I have fulfilled my side of the covenant, by repentance and receiving forgiveness.
    In Isaiah 11, talking about Jesus, it says He will judge the poor and afflicted.
    He will give us justice when we repent and take away the legal right of the enemy.
    The message Jesus preached was to repent, to escape the wrath of God on the day of judgement.
    This is not only for Gays, but for any “Christians” that commit adultery and various other sins.
    Paul says that he has warned them and warns them again that they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Gal. 5:21, 1Cor. 6:9-10
    We just need to tell sinners, including luke warm Christians and gays, that they are welcome to follow their current lifestyle, but they won’t inherit the kingdom of God and will be thrown into eternal darkness, that is their choice. Rom.1.
    We are not Christians because some-one told us we are, or because we go to a particular church etc., we are Christians, because we obey the Gospel.
    Jesus said that we have to be born again, but to be born again, we first have to die to sin, to be led by the Spirit.
    Romans tells us that those who have put to death the deeds of the body, are the true sons of God.
    If we are to preach the right Gospel, let’s get right ourselves and do what is right and righteous, and that means not judging others, but warning them.
    in 1 John 3:7, it says not to be deceived, he that does what is right is righteous.
    So let’s all start being righteous, even if it starts by picking up a paper in the street or putting the shopping trolley back.
    See the word of God as a lamp to your feet and if you if you come under judgement, then see at as discipline and get back on track.
    1 Cor. 11:32.
    When we are walking through the valley of the shadow of death, we have God’s rod, His judgement and His staff, His word to guide us.
    I would much rather be judged now and have the opportunity to repent, than to wait til the day of wrath and be judged then.

  281. debylynne Sep 2nd 2012

    peter, so would i.

  282. debylynne Sep 2nd 2012

    my dear daughter in law was here today and we were discussing the ‘subject/subjectS of this forum and she asked this question.

    ‘even if countries/nations/peoples are ‘deserving’ of judgment, are we not to pray for mercy?? are we not to continue to intercede (in our prayers as well as our actions) – shouldn’t we ‘fight’ for these souls until the last possibility of change is exhausted?? should we not seek mercy from the LORD, as abraham did for sodom and gomorrah??’

    are we to stop praying for mercy for the lost people of america?? or whatever our country of origin may be?

  283. JeffM Sep 2nd 2012

    debylynne, America is past deserving judgement, it is getting judgement. Your example of Abraham and Sodom and Gomora shows us that God knew what to do, and it took Abraham awhile to get on the same page as God.No one could intercede better than Abraham did but the end result was the same as if He had just said “yes Lord ” from the beginning. No one cares for the people more than God does, no one loves them more and no one wants them to repent more than Him. If a nation is so wicked The Father can not stand it any longer, should we tell Him to wait and suffer some more?His judgement can also bring about needed change so it is never too late for the people. I have learned that I don’t have a clue what the end result will be so I pray to know what The Lord wants and then pray for that.

    Whatever The Lord decides to do is going to be better than anything we can come up with.

  284. Edwin S. Sep 2nd 2012

    Andrew, Sometimes I have disagreed with you, but you get 100% on this one. Just as one either born again or not, so one is then either growing closer or farther away from Yeshua. Praise God for making things so simple. See 1 John 3:4. We cannot rob banks and grow closer to our Lord. Nor can we commit homosexual acts and grow closer. We must repent of sin in order to grow closer.

  285. Roger Sep 2nd 2012

    JeffM, said: I have learned that I don’t have a clue what the end result will be so I pray to know what The Lord wants and then pray for that.

    I say Amen, God’s Will, will be done – as He has spoken, so it is written, so shall it be.

    This does not take away from His desire that all believe, repent, and be saved

    2Pe 2:4-9 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

  286. Roger Sep 2nd 2012

    Sadly, we also know that not all will believe, repent, turn to, and submit to Christ Jesus as Lord of their life, and Lord of all His creation..

    Rev 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

  287. debylynne Sep 2nd 2012

    jeffm and roger – i understand and i DO agree – i guess what i was contemplating was what MY attitude should be when it comes to people/nations RECEIVING the judgment of God – does He want my heart to still be – ‘LORD, i’m grieved over this, can there NOT be ‘more’ time given them??’ knowing that the LORD will do what is RIGHT – but, wanting in my own heart to not GLOAT over their judgment….

    do you see what i mean?? i just want to be sure that my ‘heart attitude’ is right – sorrow not satisfaction over what is coming or is already here…..because the Lord IS justified in HIS judgment – absolutely and unshakeably JUSTIFIED.

    wonder why abraham ‘interceded’ for s/g – i mean, of course, he wanted his family members to be saved and they were (except lot’s wife, of course) BUT why was he asking for the WHOLE place?? what difference did it make to him personally??

    these are simply things i ponder – i want my heart attitude to be right and pleasing to HIM when it comes to ‘judgment’ in any sphere….

  288. Green Sep 2nd 2012


    You asked if there were any point in requesting of God to spare a nation that He has set about to destroy. You say that it is hopeless and therefore not worth the trying. You do not understand what you speak. You simplify a very sovereign moment into human terms only. No ones knows how or why God can either be or appear to be persuaded, but He can… He has been on many occasions. The most serious persuaion is between Moses and God when God was so fed up with the Israelites that He instructed Moses to get away from them so that He could destroy them. Moses instead fell on his face and begged God for mercy and God heard him. If Moses did not do this, then you and me and all the other brothers and sisters would not be here as we are now.

    You are also forgetting Jacob, who wrestled with God. He nearly overcame him and He touched his hip so that he might lose and then renamed him, calling him His own.

    You are forgetting even Gideon, who asked God to proved to him his calling. Yes, I believe that this is in the same vein. If God is God, then why would it be prohibited to ask for proof of it? Or guidance even, as I believe the case to be with Gideon.

    And, if you do not believe this, then what of Jonah? God had set to destroy Ninevah, the whole of it, and not for just a few to repent, but ALL to repent. That is much more stringent than Sodom and Gomarrah. And not only did God keep His word, to set out to destroy them unless they repented, but He also sent a man, Jonah, to tell them so!!! He gave them a chance! I believes He gives us all a chance, even IN His judgement! Selah.

    His judgement is more to be desired than gold. His judgement brings out the problem. It is in His heart that the punishment be spared for anyone who would repent. Yes that does not affect His judgement. Do you see how to two are separate? You are clumping them together.

    God may judge us, as a nation and as individuals, but we should never lose the hope to ask for forgiveness and to spare us. We are instructed to approach His throne with boldness. There was a parable, of the ten talents. The man who buried his talent said that he did so because he knew (very significant word there) his master to be a harsh, hard taskmaster. That man was taken out of the master’s presence. It wasn’t so much because he buried the talent as it was because of his motive for doing so– his perception of his master.

    God is not a harsh, hard taskmaster, which is why we pray to Him to spare us. Even Jesus did, though not to cross the Lord’s will. We can be no less than He.

    Remember Jeff, it takes humility to ask to be spared, not fear, not pride. A heart-change is a heart-change whichever way you look at it.

  289. Bruju Sep 2nd 2012

    I agree with this post…………..everything is tolerated in this world except christians it seems.

  290. Roger Sep 2nd 2012

    debylynne – if your hearts desire, (your heart attitude) is that ALL mankind would believe, repent, be spiritually regenerated, and confess Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour, then you are in agreement with God.

    I believe, (from both Scripture and the ache in my heart) that is His desire. :-)

    We also know from Scripture that many will refuse and suffer the consequence. :-(


    When you are led by Lord Jesus to pray for people – you just go ahead and pray sister :-)

    I too ponder on these things – I’m sure that we all do, as the Holy Spirit unites us in the will and desires of our Heavenly Father.

    Many times now, all that I can pray for someone is that Lord Jesus would reveal Himself to that person, and that he/she would receive and believe, repent, be set free, and be ‘born again’ in Christ Jesus.

    How He does that, who He uses, and when – is up to Him.

    My desire is to see individuals recognise who Jesus is, and for them to have a personal relationship, and eternal life, with Lord Jesus who created all things.

    However, I need to remember that it is His Will that will be fulfilled on Earth, as in Heaven – not mine.

    Be blessed in your walk with Him sister, :-)
    In His love,

  291. ValleyAnt Sep 2nd 2012

    Debylynne, God wants you to retain a heart that grieves over sin and imminent judgment, especially if He has called you to intercession. This is so your heart is like His in intercession, that you partake of Christ’s sufferings in groaning and intercession, and that you come to know by experience that without a doubt, God is good. Amen.

    Ps. 73 says, “SURELY (without a doubt), God is good… [primarily, firstly] to the pure in heart.” Jesus said the pure in heart will see God: God’s goodness is spotted, noted, acknowledged first by the pure in heart, therefore, though He’s always good, His goodness is towards them first (ie. being aware of His goodness, they experience it first/most.) This we see in the Canaanite woman whose daughter needed deliverance: while the centurion discerned Jesus’ authority because he also had authority, the Canaanite woman discerned Jesus’ good heart because her heart was also pure: when Jesus said His mission from God was only to the Jews, the woman audaciously responded that she could see, however, that His heart was still FOR ALL PEOPLE. Jesus commended her great faith (ie. spiritual sight beyond the apparent, the rigid, and the Law/how things are) and gave her what the asked. This is what it means for the pure in heart to see God; they see Him as He is.

    In intercession, people become partakers of God’s goodness (Grace, mercy) and experience His suffering over sin, suffering, and rebellion. When Abraham and Moses interceded, God listened, because they interceded according to His will: “[God] who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because the Spirit makes intercession… according to God’s will.”

    Green, I agree. God had made up His mind to destroy Israel on about three different occasions, but the intercessions of Moses and Aaron prevented Him only because they interceded according to God’s will. The enemy masterfully uses sins and situations to make God appear to be ‘a hard man’, but God wants to use His People to make it more and more evident that ‘without a doubt, God is good.’ Amen.

  292. Colin Sep 2nd 2012

    Andrew, I too agree with your concept of the devil’s agenda to subtly change our way of thinking from right to wrong. Little by little, one small step after another. The older one gets the more obvious it becomes – I guess because I have seen many changes over many years – even ones that most Christians still accept as OK and even engage in. One of the most obvious is our acceptance of the world’s entertainment industry, especially that which we watch on TV or movies. Most Christians seem to be happy to be ‘entertained’ by that which comes from the ‘world’ – in the biblical sense of the word.

    But let’s remember that “the whole world is in the power of the evil one” 1 Jhn 5:19, therefore whatever the world system produces has it’s source in the evil one. Should we be happy to be entertained by the devil? I sincerely hope not. Many Christians that have pointed this out to have replied that they are very discerning about what they watch. However the issue is not the ‘content’ of what they watch, but the SOURCE of it – the devil himself, who is out to steal, kill and destroy. And this is what we see happening in the world today, not just on the ‘gay marriage’ scene which to us is pretty obvious, but also in many other ways which are not so obvious.

    There is an even more direct and stern word from James: “Don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred with God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.” Ch4: 4.

    Friends, let’s be very careful about what we become ‘friendly’ with, and what we allow to influence us, especially when we know from where it is sourced.

  293. Andrew Sep 2nd 2012

    I see what you are saying, Colin, but in context I believe James is more speaking of a lifestyle of seeking worldly success and worldly ways. Perhaps a “worldly mindset” might be an apt term.

    We have no TV in our house, but I am not as extreme as you in your viewpoint, it appears.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  294. Colin Sep 2nd 2012

    Actually I got a little sidetracked with my last post, but I have a couple of things to throw into the discussion. One is that Jesus never got involved in confronting the ‘world’ over there sinful tendencies. Even the adulterer whom the Jews brought to Jesus for him to make a judgement against, was not condemned by Jesus, but instead he told her to go and sin no more.

    In fact the only people who Jesus confronted very strongly, were the religious leaders of his day, and he didn’t pull any punches – ‘you brood of vipers – whitewashed sepulchres etc. So my question is – what should our response be to those promoting various forms of ‘evil’? Should we be out there protesting as the world does?

    I’m sure that as Jesus was writing in the dirt while the Jews left the scene mentioned above one by one, he was praying to the Father, and then he knew how to respond rightly.

    The other thing worth noting are some of the very last words that Jesus (through an angel) spoke in the Scriptures were: “Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.” Rev 22:11 Does that mean we can put our feet up and ignore all the evil? Not at all. God wants us to pray earnestly. But maybe it means that we are not to directly – physically get involved. Follow Jesus example.

  295. Andrew Sep 2nd 2012

    The only difference is that the tide of ‘evil’ that we are speaking of is preaching it’s “gospel” to our young people and “coverting” them to total secularism. In other words, it is not just the “doing” of evil but the ‘preaching’ of it that we need to expose. It is also greatly infiltrating the church. So to be silent is not OK.

    Bless you!


  296. Colin Sep 2nd 2012

    I see the change from ‘doing’ to ‘preaching their message’ is just part of the downhill slide in moral standards which has been going on for many decades. We cannot stop the devil in his tracks by using similar methods. In fact ‘we’ cannot in our own strength do anything to hinder his works. “It’s not by power nor by might, but by my Spirit says the Lord”.
    I do believe however that it does present the church with a challenge to get our act together in prayer and proclaiming the gospel in the power of the Spirit. It is only the power of God that will achieve anything for the Kingdom, and there needs to be a real focus on God’s agenda, and unity within the body in this regard. Until there is, I believe we will be losing the battle.
    So I guess that the ‘speaking out’ needs firstly to be to the church to awaken her to what is really going on, and it will all start with prayer and genuinely seeking God with all our heart. Then we need to be boldly proclaiming The Gospel with passion, being ready for much opposition and probably persecution as Jesus foretold would happen.
    I guess the exciting thing about all this is that it is another clear sign of the end times. In that sense – bring it on.

    God bless you.

  297. Foolhardy Fred Sep 2nd 2012

    2 Thessalonians 2:15

    (15) Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

    New King James Version

  298. Peter Sep 2nd 2012

    Seems to be a special breed of Christians on this site, and I’m glad to be be included in them.
    Bless you all.

  299. Ibelieve Sep 2nd 2012

    Colin makes some very good points here on this subject.

    I don’t understand exactly what Andrew means by speaking out.

    Are you saying speak more to the church world to be aware of this? Because going to the world and naming one sin above another does not seem like the right approach.

    You mention that they are trying to reach the youth with this evil message. But its just not homosexuality they are preaching.

    The secular media, schools, colleges, are all trying to downgrade Christianity as some kind of fanatical religion. From this they are encouraging young people to live together and just do what you want to do.

    My wife took a sociology class (a required subject) in college. They stressed no one was to talk about religion. They then taught we should be accepting of everyone and not profile people in this country because of sexual orientation.

    Of course religion was not allowed to be brought up, but they would constantly make references to Hinduism, and all other eastern religions. While my wife used the opportunity to witness to Christianity, she did notice that the students just accepted what was being preached.

    They never challenged the professor.

    What I am trying to say is that its just not homosexuality that they are preaching. Its secularism, liberalism, exploring all forms of sexuality, the world’s religions and philosophy, etc.

    When we as Christians take one piece of the pie and try to make an issue of it, they then act like we are being unloving and just a judgmental religion.

    I have to agree somewhat with what Martin and others have been trying to say here.

    If we are walking in the Spirit as we should be, then conviction will come upon the worldly and they will have to make the decision to repent or just harden their hearts.

    I do not think Christians are called to protest, picket, or write articles attacking just one certain sin going on in the world.

    One more thing, someone one time had mentioned that in America, that so many have heard the Gospel so many times, and some were raised in Christian homes that they have become Gospel hardened and because of this the fruit we see today is rampant sin.

    In Him,

  300. Malcolm in the Middle Sep 2nd 2012

    Thanks Andrew for setting up this forum. Thanks to all responding, making your comments, and contending the faith.
    Another disaster taking place is on the Costa Del Sol area of Spain which attracts the wealthy, British ex pats, businesses who sell unfinished properties making a fast buck with unsuspecting buyers and then disappearing into the sunset without telling anyone , time shares, and the building of mansions for those who can afford it. This part of Spain even has a christian tv station involved with the Word of Faith Movement and its erronous teachings and prophecies on prosperity. The tv channel was encouraged by a false prophetess to move there. She had made other prophecies a few years ago for Scotland and before that for the Great Britain – all never fulfilled.
    So what is happening on the Costa Del Sol whose Spanish people are predominantly are under the influence of Roman Catholic Church, considered to be the biggest cult in the world? This part of Spain is experiencing a ranging fire which has burnt up exclusive properties. Makes you wonder when one looks at major calamities hitting other nations, and the recent hurricane which hit the American coast.
    You decide as the financial collaspe in the EU, etc, etc, expands to other countries. Just look and Spain as an example!
    But mentioning the United States of America, what will happen to this nation after the presidential election in November?
    The candidates of the two party system are making promises to the electorate for their votes.
    Barack Hussein Obama for the Democrats is making promises to serve another term as president.
    While Mitt Romney and his deputy Paul Ryan by making joint pledges are “promising the world” to the middle classes and the wealthy.
    Notice what Romney said to the middle class for their vote…he will dismantle the welfare system set up by Obama preferring “tax breaks” for the rich. The poor and the pensioners of America are expected to pay for this. And he has emphasised that he dislikes the British welfare system, made possible by the Beveridge Report and given approval by Parliament which came into force on 5th July 1948 for the British people, most of which were poverty stricken and had no access for medical help. Romney has no time for what was set up concerning welfare in Britain during 1948.
    Notice as well, while Romney is a member of the cult known as the Mormon Church, Ryan is a member of the biggest cult in the workd called the Roman Catholic Church. While Obama is considered by many as a Muslim.
    So there you have it with the American two party system. Both parties are controlled by the powerful and the wealthy,
    And going back to two republicans Romney and Ryan involved with different cults but supporting each other and having no time for the poor and pensioners, the American people have not must to chose from when voting for the “lesser of the two evils.” But voting for whom will decide the fate of the United States of America and what path it will take whether it be Republican or Democrat.
    Thank you Lord Jesus that you, my Saviour, is coming soon.
    For you will be setting up your governance on this earth and your promises will be fulfilled while the promises of man are hollow, corrupt, and have no substance.
    And I will be joining in by shouting out from the top of my voice that wonderful word form scripture – MARANATHA!
    Also to everyone reading the comments made. I too say and declare…REPENT AND SEEK THE LORD WHILE YOU ARE ABLE.
    Praise the Lord!!!!!!!

  301. Martin Sep 2nd 2012

    If we accept, as is so often said on this forum, that we are in the very last days of the last days, that the return of the Lord Jesus is almost upon us, then we must view certain things in an entirely new context. A context which no other generation before us has needed to see.

    We must see the end time events detailed in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 as warnings, portends of the end. Also, Jesus words, as in the day of Noah (is it ever like that now) tell us when we see these things as the predominating influence in our societies, then the end is all but upon us.

    If we’ve reached the point where man’s wickedness has become great in the sight of the LORD, where every inclination of the thoughts of his heart are only evil all the time (again, is it ever like that now) then hurling proof texts, applying band-aids to a fatal wound, will only land us in further distress. Our faith in the Lord will be dented.

    If this is indeed the last days of the last days, we must refer to the Scriptures which relate to that, and not those that inform earlier parts of the Christian era.

    Perhaps a better position would be that of Abraham pleading for Sodom before it’s utter destruction. Better yet, be guided by the Holy Spirit. We won’t be disappointed then.

  302. Martin Sep 2nd 2012

    Further, if we disregard the leading of the Holy Spirit and give place to strong emotions, or employ the wrong Scriptures in this and every other issue of our times, then we are acting in the flesh.

    Not to be recommended when we consider God is a spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

  303. JeffM Sep 2nd 2012

    Green, your explanation of what I believe is so different from what I do believe . First , Isreal was spared many times but in the end they were destroyed, the same with Nineveh, it was destroyed by God at a later time. That does not mean I think it is hopeless to pray. The purpose of prayer is NOT to get things from God. We pray to know Him and to know His will and persevere in prayer to the point that we agree with God.

    If there is anything good in your heart that God responds to from prayers, He put it in you. The prayer for a delay of judgement comes from Man’s heart after The Lord God first moves on your heart to care.All good things do come from Him, if there is any good in you , He put it there.So the prayer that seems to change God’s mind is from a heart that was first touched by God. Abraham was being changed by The Lord God as he interceded for Sodom, it was not a waste of time.

    None of us even know to cry out for mercy unless the Lord first teaches us to do that. I have stopped giving Man any credit for anything good because I now know that whatever good we do, it is because He taught us to do it. God wants us to pray to know Him and His heart, it is about love between The Lord and us.If you pray because you care about something ,it was God who made you care in the first place. So answered prayers are really what He was going to do before you got involved . He wants us to share in what He is doing and prayer is how we become a part of what Jesus(God) does.

  304. a farmer Sep 2nd 2012

    In case someone hasn’t heard, a bill (SB 1172) is now on the desk of the California governor that will outlaw ‘ex-gay’ therapy for kids. The author of the bill depicts these efforts to provide counseling as “quackery and child abuse.” If the bill is signed, it will be the first of its kind in the nation.

  305. Kathleen Sep 2nd 2012

    “The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force.” ~ Adolf Hitler

    Indeed, if they preach it often & loud enough, it becomes the way it is … never mind the truth. These are not new tactics, but old ones wrapped up in contemporary garb.

    “Did He really say _____” ~ Satan

  306. a farmer Sep 2nd 2012

    [JeffM–Your post sounds quite Calvinistic to me. May I suggest an excellent book? “The Other Side of Calvinism,” by Laurence M. Vance.]

  307. JeffM Sep 2nd 2012

    a farmer, do not take a potshot at me and then tell me to go read some book.

    If you want to have a conversation about something I said in one of my several posts, fine. Being called a bad name and then dismissed ,in a sublte way, is what you did to me. Just don’t talk to me if that is what you are going to do.

  308. Green Sep 2nd 2012


    Okay, so it sounds like you are saying that it is both important and negligible to be praying to God. It sounds like you are saying that a heart that is moved to prayer is done so by God Himself, so that whatever the person were to pray for was something that God would have done anyway. Why not take it a step further and ask the question, then why is prayer important, if prayer is important at all? Can there be no freewill of man?

    Your description of God sounds a little divided, Jeff. He will put it into people’s hearts to pray to Him to have Him change His mind? Why? So that He appears to be merciful because He isn’t without our prayers? So, He needs us? He needs us to make Him appear merciful and full of compassion? I hope that this is not what you mean, but your comment leaves me to suggest nothing else.

    And I do not agree with it. God made His creation for a reason and with a purpose. Prayer means much more than that God put it there, though it is according to His will. It is the sincere communication of the created to the Creator.

    Prayer is not so inevitable as you imagine. It’s as though one would say that there is not point in voting because one vote will not change the balance of power. You could say, that no vote will change the balance of power since God controls it all. But then, it’s a little tricky here, don’t you think? God would be controlling evil… I believe that He does. But I don’t think that He is carefully giving us small doses in evil in our world and our lives, according to His great pleasure. That would be evil. He allows evil to live for a while and He curbs its affects, but I don’t think that He goes around dosing evil out!

    No, Jeff, to say that man has no impact or say with God that is his own that God listens to and is compassionate towards infers that God is harsh, that God is hard and that He is a taskmaster. And that is simply a lie.

  309. Tammy Sep 2nd 2012

    You are absolutely right about what you say in this post! If more Christian’s would take this stand then we would have much more strength to defeat the devil at his own game and be able to take back our youth. Thank you for your stand.

  310. JeffM Sep 3rd 2012

    Green, you don’t seem to know what it means to be led by the Spirit of God in prayer. Jesus taught us to pray “Lord, your will be done”. His will is…. what He wants to do. What you want will never be better than His Will.So we pray for what The Lord Jesus wants to do, His will not ours ,be done. But first you need to “know” God and what His Will is.

    I said that whatever God does is what He wanted to do, before you prayed. I did not say whatever you pray for is what God would have done anyway.When The Lord wants to do something He searches for a heart to pray and agree with Him.If no one prays He may not do it because He did not plan on doing it by Himself, He wants us to agree in prayer with Him. He does not need us to pray so He can then do something, He does not want to be seperate from us in what He does.

    Just because God is the one that moves on our hearts to seek Him does not mean we are not free to ignore him , if we are so foolish. Prayer does not change things, God changes things. And He is not waiting for His creation to tell Him what to do ,as if He did not want to do it before you thought of it. Much of the teaching about prayer is the same thing as christian sorcery, as if words that are spoken and thoughts in your head can supernaturely change reality. It is wrong and it lifts up man in the place of God.

    You are not some sort of co-ruler with God of His creation, and prayer is not how you get the changes to His creation that you want.

    8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

    9 Pray, therefore, like this: Our Father Who is in heaven, hallowed (kept holy) be Your name.

    10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

  311. Homosexuality cannot be categorized has just another sin.
    First: God gave them over to a reprobate mind , they cannot get saved.
    Second – Those folks who have been in abusive situations can get saved because they haven’t been turned over to a reprobate mind necessarily as we see in 1 Cor 6:9 (nor abusers of themselves with mankind) If your not being sloppy with reading just anything that has the words BIBLE on it. We need to discern these very important things and stop lumping everything together.
    Christians are so concerned with “LOVE” – but if you read the whole BIBLE you will see that God also HATED. But you say God is Love yes God is Love but in our finiteness we don’t see The God of the BIBLE, we conclude that Love is …..blah, blah, blah…Do you Love HITLER, you say “Hate the sin love the sinner….parroting not the BIBLE, but GHANDI. ECCL A TIME TO LOVE A TIME TO HATE…..! But we have listened to only half the story LOVE…interestingly enough our Loving Father also allows real people to go to HELL where there is TORMENT. The same God of Heaven. “OUR THOUGHTS ARE NOT HIS THOUGHTS”! I AM SURE THERE WILL BE HATERS AT ME! YES? Don’t imagine a God of LOVE that you understand, but that a GOD OF LOVE that understands MANKIND!

  312. Shelley Dyson Sep 3rd 2012

    Being gay as Strom says and I totally agree is not a gene. The world scientists have tried to explain why the gays always say “I have felt like this since I was 3-5 yrs old” or “ever since I can remember”. Well let me break it down for you as someone who is a spiritual warrior.

    There are spirits dispatched by God or a satan. ( I say a satan because if you know anything about fallen angels there were 200 that left God’s presence in a pact and were thrown out of heaven’s midst and it was him named Gadreel who misled Eve.) -The Bible underwent a reformation in 533AD. So spirits are dispatched by either side to justify a means to accomplish a result. God dispatched a lying spirit (2 Chron 18:20-22). They come from the evil side as well of course. Paul had a thorn from a satan to prevent him from becoming too proud on his journey through life (2 Cor 12:6-7) It is strategy. Their world is unlike our world. Our world is material, theirs is fantastic, things you can only imagine I tell you, Enoch and Paul even recounted for you.

    So being gay and spirits breaks down this way: a child is sexually molested or assaulted and may or may not remember, or same sex adventurous play at any age – including teenage years or adulthood (and for this you will pay for your poor choices) that is not corrected leads to the dispatch of several spirits. God likes things in 7’s. A satan chief likes to imitate The Holy one (he disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14)) so he also uses the number 7. And their armies are kind of like ours…where do you think we get our concepts from?

    So the homosexual spirit is sent, and an effiminate spirit is sent to a male and this explains why a gay man acts a certain way, copying female mannerisms, in an eggarated way. A masculine spirit is sent to a female and this is why she rejects her femiminity. And this is all across the board. It happens to all of them. Some yield to the pressing of the spirits, some don’t. But some go through life, marry have children and wonder why they are oddly attracted to Bob at the BBQ. Or she may wonder why she is never sexually fulfilled and becomes a lesbian after the children leave home. Or these people are bi.

    These spirits are sent because they have displeased God and confused their sexual identity roles.

    Other spirits in tow are depression, anxiety, and a mocking spirit (gay men mock women), and antiChrist. (Antichrist spirits make rude comments about others, are hurtful, sarcastic, manipulative, among other things).

    These ppl have built a whole way of life so contrary to what is Godly, dressing as women, etc… The trend of acceptance has waxed and waned of various periods of history, up until the 1900’s-1950’s the Chinese practiced homosexuality to the point that wives were jealous and it was accepted culturally until the introduction of Christianity. The Greeks in times of old used to have mentoring relationships in which pedeophilia was encouraged and practiced, all students were molested by their teachers. And we all know about the Romans. So the one we know as Satan (Azazael or Samjaza), has been busy through the ages using us as puppets to do what God abhors.

    The satans are very busy building their evil empires. Gay culture is one of them, Hollywood is another. It spreads false truths about our God, blasphemes him, relaxes the senses, overloads us with violence.
    I wouldn’t be too jubliant about the hurricane in New Orleans, because Canada has it’s share of a gay celebrated population in Vancouver. Smiting is a sign to turn from wicked ways. (He also did Pompeii where Paul journeyed through.) It’s quite easy to point a sticky finger.

    One sin is equal to another says Jesus or Paul.

    And with these spirits, you need God ‘s help, spiritual warfare. You need to repent for a time deemed by The Lord of Heaven’s Armies and apologize in the spirit and in your heart and put on the armour of God, the sword of the spirit and pick up your shield for these are unseen enemies.(Eph 6:12) It is foretold, and it seems an unfair fight, because as the persons moral fiber is stripped away as the world deems it okay the enemy whispers in their ears “it is okay”. Because spirits never get bored, never sleep, and never just go away. They prey upon us all, and devour you. We are like lowly beasts to them, puppets.

    And never think you can outsmart a spirit or fallen one because He made them smarter than us. We are a little below them. They have been watching us a very long time. If someone you know is having problems. Anything dealing with the head, hearing things, ringing or clicking in the ears, that is a deaf and dumb spirit, schizophrenia as the world sees it, fixable with spiritual warfare… Seek a church with spiritual warriors to deal with the problem. Not an immediate fix. Mental illness is a satans latest weapon against humanity over the ages.

    And fear not for your loved ones who have not “been saved” for Jesus holds the keys to death. (Rev 1:18) the Lord does not want you to worry for it is a sin to worry and not to trust in The Lord, but to coninue in prayer for your loved ones. On that day, every knee will bend and all will be reconciled unto Him.

    God has angels everywhere, if he knows a sparrow falls,(Mat 10:29) he knows your plight, your dreams, your sorrow, and he loves you beyond compare. Everytime you choose a right decision you emmulate The Father, which is your part of your purpose and when you lie you are deceitful and not his.

    Shelley Dyson
    Harmony Church
    Winchester Ontario

  313. JeffM Sep 3rd 2012

    John 6:43-47

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    43 So Jesus answered them, Stop grumbling and saying things against Me to one another.

    44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

    45 It is written in [the book of] the Prophets, And they shall all be taught of God [have Him in person for their Teacher]. Everyone who has listened to and learned from the Father comes to Me—

    46 Which does not imply that anyone has seen the Father [not that anyone has ever seen Him] except He [Who was with the Father] Who comes from God; He [alone] has seen the Father.

    47 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, he who believes in Me [who adheres to, trusts in, relies on, and has faith in Me] has (now possesses) eternal life.

  314. Roger Sep 3rd 2012

    Shelley Dyson – when you say:“…And fear not for your loved ones who have not “been saved” for Jesus holds the keys to death. (Rev 1:18) the Lord does not want you to worry for it is a sin to worry and not to trust in The Lord, but to coninue in prayer for your loved ones. On that day, every knee will bend and all will be reconciled unto Him…”

    May I ask, do you mean that ALL will be saved, as in the universalist doctrine..? or have I misunderstood your comment..?

  315. Ibelieve Sep 3rd 2012

    “The vague and tenuous hope that God is too kind to punish the ungodly has become a deadly opiate for the consciences of millions.”


  316. Holly Sep 3rd 2012


    I believe you are right on this. There has to be a voice who continues to hold out light (truth) in the darkness to the end. Look what happened to John the Baptist when he told the truth of a situation to the ruler of that time. He was beheaded. Don’t listen to the mixed up people telling you to be quiet and to be “nice”. We are all required to turn from our sin and lies whatever form we are engaged in and turn to, believe, and practice the truth. How can we believe the truth if everyone sits there and smiles but never tells us what is right or wrong? I don’t trust people like that. I want to hear what it true whether I like it or not. All of us need to be careful not to supress the truth in unrightousness especially when it comes under the umbrella of a “nice smile”.

  317. JeffM Sep 3rd 2012

    Lynn , lets just look at the Word and see what it does say.We can start with the verse you used.

    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,

    Now we do need to see more of the bible to finish out what was being said.

    10 Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.

    So none of these people will be saved, not just those who participate in homosexuality. But next it says that the true church is made up of people who at one time did these things.

    11 And such some of you were [once]. But you were washed clean (purified by a complete atonement for sin and made free from the guilt of sin), and you were consecrated (set apart, hallowed), and you were justified [pronounced righteous, by trusting] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the [Holy] Spirit of our God.

    So a follower of Jesus can be someone who has participated in homosexual sin if they repented of all the sins on this list and now they do what is right.There are no conditions like you have stated… you said,(Those folks who have been in abusive situations can get saved).

    It is a very bad thing to tell people, they can not be saved, when The Lord Jesus says that they can be saved, if they repent and are forgiven.You are opposing Him who made all things in His work.

  318. Green Sep 3rd 2012

    Jeff, I agree with much of your post that you addressed to me. But then, my question becomes what did you mean when you said that prayer was rather ineffective, specifically in the context of praying to God to spare America since you believe that America is LONG overdue for judgement and punishment? You seem to be contradicting yourself.

    I, like you, do not ascribe to the belief that prayer trumps God in power. I also do not believe in the power of positive thinking. I do, however, believe in prayer and its power of connection/relating to God. I then believe in the God I serve who is compassionate and who listens and is sometimes swayed by those to pray to Him in this manner.

    So, how is it, that you think that prayer holds no power, so very little power in fact that we would do well to place out efforts elsewhere?

    I believe that it is the homosexuals (and/or their spirit, however you want to say it) that have this very harsh view of God. To them, He is a harsh hard taskmaster. Why? Because He does not allow them to entertain why they believe to be a part of their basic rights, freedom, even dignity. And they think that God would give these things to all men as an act of love (very humanistic thinking on their part). They can’t comprehend that the fact that anyone who would view God as being harsh does not have His mind and heart within them. Love does not bend to include everyone who wishes to “need” what they will. No! Love helps, heals, blesses, and directs the individuals into the necessary form and path to be able to accept Love, His Love. Afterall, there is such a thing as light and darkness. There is no such thing as ligkness, and no one lives there.

  319. JeffM Sep 3rd 2012

    Green, I was not clear about America. There was a time of grace when America was still due for judgement. We are past that time and now are in a time of judgement, it is here already. Whatever God decided to do to America , He is in the process of doing it. As an example, the bible says that being at war is judgement and peace is His blessing, we are always at war now.When the end of judgement will be , I don’t know , but we are in it now.

    To think that prayer has power, ( I did but He taught me what that belief meant ), is really to believe that man has power. Prayer is not some mystical type force , it is you speaking words , either out loud or just in your thoughts. So I am saying that prayer is something “you” are doing, and to say prayer has power is to believe that you have power to use.Power to change things ? You don’t have that ability from prayer or any other way.

    I know it can sound right to believe that prayer has power ,but prayer is just you saying words to God. Powerfull things happen when God answers prayer but there was never any power in the prayer ( you really). What God does has power, what you are doing is talking.You can’t talk and change things supernaturaly.

    To be blunt , if you don’t want to talk with God The Father all the time about everything, just because you love Him, you don’t know Him. Prayer is one way we can get to know God The Father and be taught by Him how to humble ourselves before Him. If anyone is getting swayed during prayer, it is you being swayed by Him.

  320. Green Sep 3rd 2012


    Yes, but I’m still unclear as to how you know that America is past a time of grace? You say it is because we are now in constant war.. is this your reasoning for it? I think that I disagree with you. I think that this is opinion. I’m not sure if you are from America or not, but either way, you are not in the same circles that I am in. Not everything in America is war and I can say from my own experience that there isn’t grace in America still. Why be so hard on America? Again, one could argue that Ninevah was completely “past a time of grace” since God’s judgement was already given.

    I think that this is what we are arguing about actually. If a nation is “past a time of grace” does that mean that it is futile to pray and ask for forgiveness and to repent? Does entering into a time of judgement mean that no matter what, it’s coming to us and we deserve it and are getting it?

    Again, this is a very harsh view of God and His work. Again, this is the same very harsh view that a lot of the homosexuals have. Do you also believe that homosexuals are beyond, are past a time of grace, IF they repent from their sins and wickedness?

    I don’t think that anyone is beyond the point of grace. I think that’s the point of Jesus’ death and Resurrection. He even saved the other sinners who were hung with him. In our own microcosm of our lives, God has told us that we are never past the point of grace. Why would it be different for a nation?

  321. For those who are born again even if prior to salvation they were right into a lesbian or gay lifestyle – these ones have been covered with the Blood of Jesus – for those who have been saved and have “inherited” the “visiting” of these lesbian and gay tendencies from the sins of the forefathers – whether they have acted on these or not (whether they lie “dormant” in their hearts – their old hearts) – these ones are also covered by the Blood of Jesus – all these ones have new hearts and these new hearts are not lesbian or gay…

    I know quite a bit about this as I inherited a lot of the “sins of the forefathers” and when I have cried out to the Lord for deliverance He has shown me this various greatgrandfather or way back to where my maternal side was involved in the Druids and to where my paternal side has been involved in Freemasonry…

    We are all born with various “demons” whether they be real demons or tendencies – inquities (ingrained patterns of sin which we just “can’t break” on the inside) – whether we practice these things outwardly or not…

    There is deliverance for all these things in the Blood of Jesus in His Time…

    and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood–and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father– to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. (Revelation 1:5-6 NASB)

    And by deliverance I mean the removal of these desires which rage in our hearts which we feel that we cannot control but may “try” to control but really know that they are beyond our control and only crying out to the Lord will solve our “problem”…

    I know – as I’ve been in that situation – I’ve been there with pretty much any sort of sexual perversion you would care to name…

    For whatever reason this is what I “inherited” from the sins of the forefathers…

    Some people inherit drug and alcohol addiction or smoking but I didn’t inherit any of those – none of those have been an issue to me (by the Grace of God)…

    But the sexual area has been a problem to me which is why I know as much as I do about the Jezebel spirit…

    Not that I’ve wanted to but because I’ve had to and experienced it in my desire to be free – practically – from all sexual perversion…

    For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. (Romans 7:22-23 NASB)

    For anyone who is born again but still struggling with the “visited iniquites” (ingrained practices of sin which just seem to have a “hold” on them and won’t let go) – whether they be overeating, smoking, drinking, drugs, sexual perversions, swearing, cheating, lying, etc, etc, etc – the good news of the gospel is that we are holy by the Blood of Jesus as soon as we give ourselves to Jesus in repentance from our sin and admission that He is Lord and that we surrender to Him in all things…

    And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10 NIV)

    because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:14 NIV)

    However long it takes for our new self to be “built up in our most holy faith” and “transformed from glory to glory” is up to the Lord as He works in our hearts – but we will be free for this is His promise to us…

    Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:24-25 NASB)

    Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass. (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NASB)

    Our hearts cry out to Him to be transformed into His Image and we do not love the sin which we find ourselves “trapped in”…

    This is the joy of a child of God going through that process whereby they arrive at the position of “there is therefore now no condemnation”…

    Anyone who is truly born again would never teach that any of these sexual perversions is “OK” or that “God made me this way so it must be OK” – the reality is that our sin in the Garden of Eden “made us this way” in terms of any of the sexual perversions which we find ourselves “trapped” in (even from birth as they are “visited” at conception) and as we repent (as we are given this by the Lord) and return to the Lord as our only form of Comfort in this life we are released to greater and greater measures in our relationship with Him and as this is established we are “lined up” more and more and more with respect to our relationships with everyone else, i.e. we become practically holy to greater and greater and greater degrees…

    With respect to those who would teach that lesbian and gay lifestyles are acceptable to the Lord – this is clearly not the truth – they are not…

    Mastabation, pornography, rape, pedaphilia, sexual manipulation, dirty dreaming, sexual fantasies or sexual daydreaming or sexual coveteousness of anything which the Lord hasn’t given us are all additional sexual perversions which the Lord has stated that it is His express intention to deliver us from (whether these things happen “within us” and never get expressed in reality or whether these things happen “within us” and get expressed in reality)…

    Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 NASB)

    When you do a study of verse 3 in the Greek ( it gets even more encouraging…

    Interlinear (literal transliteration from the Greek): “this indeed is the will of God the sanctification of you to abstain you from sexual immorality”…

    It is God’s will to abstain us (those who have been born again) from sexual immorality – Praise God!!!

    That is encouraging… :-)

    All those who try to say that God “accepts us as we are” and interpret that to mean that they can continue on “unrepentantly” in their sin are speaking lies in the Name of the Lord…

    Yes, the Lord does accept us as we are in our new selves – unconditionally in fact…

    But He does not and will never accept us as we are in our old selves as there is “nothing good” living in them – as scripture says…

    I agree that there is an agenda to “moralise” lesbian and gay lifestyles…

    I couldn’t help thinking back when Andrew raised this subject on Friday to what the Lord did when “the sons of God” came down and had relations with the “daughters of men” – that was when the Lord sent the Flood as the “children” born from the relationship between demons and human women would have been unredeemable – God hasn’t offered redemption to demons or to the devil…

    He had to destroy everyone to protect the world from becoming overrun with unredeemable people – this was the greatest threat sofar to His Salvation being able to extend to the ends of the earth…

    What will He do if lesbians and gays are able to bring up children?

    Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! (Isaiah 5:20 NASB)

  322. debylynne Sep 3rd 2012

    jeffm and green
    i am finding your discussion very worthwhile to ‘ponder on’ – truly. there are many things concerning ‘prayer’ that i have contemplated and never come to a REALLY satisfactory conclusion – i am finding things you are both saying very much worth ‘weighing and considering’……..thank you.

    andrew j.horton – what you have shared here ‘speaks’ to me – strongly……our ‘position’ but not yet our ‘condition’……we ARE accepted in the beloved, as you have made clear – legally pardoned – freed from the penalty of sin, as if were – our ‘position’ in HIM – but our ‘condition’ is still in a great process of being CHANGED – of being ‘delivered in the ‘present’ from the POWER of sin’ – from much that was passed down to us or even, somehow, originated within us by our own ‘lusts’…..but we ARE being changed, delivered, transformed – line upon line, here a little, there a little – as long as we will SUBMIT to His working in us and co-operate WITH the Holy Spirit in His work to ‘conform us to the image of HIS dear son’, HE WILL do it. amen.

    .amen and amen – i appreciate all that you had to say – it is worth ‘chewing on’……

  323. ValleyAnt Sep 3rd 2012

    Colin, good point that Jesus didn’t directly confront the world but the religious system and devoted His time ministering to the needy. The thing is that was according to His own particular mandate from the Father to seek out the lost sheep of Israel or ‘those humble enough to receive salvation’. He charged His apostles with the very same thing, and before and after He ascended, He sent them to do what He was specifically sent to do summed in this: ‘preach to those who’ll receive the good news and avoid those who reject it’. The Book of Acts explains all this. This is all to say that not everyone has the same mandate or message or is sent to or will preach to the same people regarding the gospel.

    Gary, the ‘gospel’ preached so long in America is one of pride and self-godhood, therefore, many missionaries from here take other nations this ‘gospel’. Not being raised on Christ but on ‘you are better than others’, these missionaries take an incomplete or false ‘gospel’ to other nations, and the fruit is usually anemic as the recipients find themselves depending more on the missionaries and on Americans than on God. People aren’t really hardened to the gospel but to the idea of it. They haven’t yet met, heard, or seen the true/full gospel which Paul said he “fully preached”, otherwise, they wouldn’t so easily be impressed with all satan’s counterfeits.

    Jeff, we do persevere in prayer till we’re in agreement with God so that we can walk with Him (Amos 3:3). Only God loves the world, and we can’t love others without being moved by Him.

    A Farmer, it’s too bad about the bill to outlaw counseling for kids leaving the gay lifestyle. However, one of the real issues that God is bringing to the fore with homosexuality and so many other issues is the lack of fathers and men who’ll take responsibility over the souls of these lost youth. There aren’t many fathers (but many who can talk about what should be done), therefore, these issues must continue to seem insurmountable. Because homosexuality (and Jezebel and Ahab who are all involved in this destruction of identity and usurpation of leadership we see in homosexuals) revolves around the issue of authority, the issues will continue to appear insurmountable if not met by greater (i.e. legitimate) authority.

  324. ValleyAnt Sep 3rd 2012

    Green, prayer is a vast topic (excuse me if I fly wide of the topic). Many times (most times in my opinion), God doesn’t act because people won’t pray. Moreover, many pray and God still doesn’t act. This is often where the ‘dynamic’ of “the prayers of a righteous man” availing much comes into play, making sense of lots of unanswered prayers. One day, I asked God why so many prayed for a particular issue without results. He told me it was because ‘those who pray don’t act’. Here is what He meant: if I pray for say Larry but have the attitude that God should be the One to work for Larry (or someone else besides me), my prayers are not righteous and have little to no power. If, however, I pray and am open to the Lord telling ME to do something in Larry’s favor, my prayers are righteous. Being in agreement with God in action (though I haven’t acted yet but have done so in my heart) as I am in prayer, I have fulfilled already what God has fulfilled and desires to fulfill. (My desire to act in Larry’s favor will motivate my prayers to be ‘continual’ and so ‘effectual’.) God may then lead me to act or, due to my action in heart (making me righteous as surely as one who’s already acted is righteous), will have the right or release to use someone else to act for Larry.

    It requires a book to write about how payer works and why so many ‘righteous’ prayers go unanswered. If you were honest, you might confess that you prefer not to get practically involved in the lives of most of those you pray for. This is often the hindrance to answered prayer: God says yes with prayer and action, but we usually say yes only in prayer, therefore, we aren’t walking in agreement with Him. Seeing that He works though us, it begins to make sense why so many prayers are unanswered. This is why teachers need to be allowed to teach in churches. Enough talking and apologizing by pastors; teachers need to be released! I’ve seen teachers teach before; there’s always been a much deeper or purer humility and Grace and peace than pastors tend to have who are forced to entertain the people. I thought I should post separately regarding this.

  325. ValleyAnt Sep 3rd 2012

    Tammy, reaching youth isn’t about x-ing out homosexuality; it’s about men standing up and taking responsibility for youth. After Cain killed Abel and God asked him to ACCOUNT for him, Cain replied, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” Jesus answered emphatically that we are our neighbor’s keepers in the story of the good Samaritan. Yet, today, after youth are robbed and plundered and are being destroyed and God asks men what we’ll do about this, we answer God from a closed view, “Am I these kids’ dad?” (His answer in the last Day will surprise many.) The homosexuals who attacked me for months were so worn and defeated by the end of it that they actually became friends of mine. Is homosexuality really that monstrous. No; men are just so apt to shirk the God-given responsibly to defend the needy and oppressed (and homosexuals, especially lesbians, fall under these categories) that all the hills have become great mountains and flat roads are now grand canyons. Youth are rescued not just by binding Homosexuality but by replacing it with godly men, thereby replacing the strongman by “a stronger”.

    Lynn, amen.

    Shelley Dyson, I look forward to when spiritual things are received by the Western churches so that we can begin to understand God’s ways and spiritual things with our hearts rather than with our minds. Americans have been mastered (masterfully tricked) by pride, the first and foremost abomination to God (among seven abominations mentioned in Pro. 6:16-19 where homosexuality doesn’t make the list), making us too ‘wise’ or intellectual to believe spiritual things and leading us inevitably to a fall as we seek to understand God and spiritual things but are too proud to believe ‘spiritual things'; but God gives Grace to the humble.

    Holly, amen.

    Here’s finally what I wanted to share that turned into three posts in one night:

    Concerning whether to oppose sin openly or not (and other similar things), as someone mentioned, the Bible has many truths that contradict each other on the surface (let’s not be too ‘holy’ to confess this). E.g. Paul says within four verses in Gal. 6, “Bear one another’s burdens… each one will hear his own load.” They are both true, but their meanings must be rescued to make sense separately and together of each sentence. Should we run about serving like Martha or sit still and be quiet like Mary; should we speak quietly to ourselves and God or speak loudly to people on issues; should we speak against sin or just let the Light shine from us to convict and maybe save the sinner? The lord answers to such questions, “Yes.” If the Spirit leads us, whatever we do is the right thing to do. Furthermore, regarding those who are direct opposites (like Mary and Martha), if the quiet person will help the acting person in their labors, the acting person will have Grace to sit still with the quiet person. When we come under another’s Grace (gifting, focus, etc.), they receive Grace to come under our own Grace, and everything works well together. This is probably why Martha asked Jesus to have Mary help her (so she could have Grace and time to sit before Jesus with Mary; however, even in what is right, the Lord doesn’t force or compel).

  326. Andrew Sep 3rd 2012

    Andrew – he that has not repented of such serious sins as you speak of, is no Christian at all.

    !st Corinthians and Galatians makes this very clear.

    Bless you!


  327. horst Sep 3rd 2012

    Well well well, at least there are still some peolpe out there that not only read their bible, but that actually have the fear of God, that really feels good. If God says something is an abomination, i have sort of an understanding that HE actually means it. Furthermore, it is made clear in the old and new testament that homo sexuality is abominable and if one takes into consideration that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, then my question is what do people not understand? God created Adam and Eve, we all know that. what we should do is create a gay colony, send them all there and within a short time the wotld will be rid of this abomination and they can rally and demand rights which they do not deserve in their own little world and at least not contaminate the straight community. unfortunately it our duty to pray for these gays on ask FATHER to open their eyes so that they can repent of their sin and come to their senses. blessings

  328. Gareth Sep 3rd 2012

    It is incorrect to say that christians “have their demons” for spirit filled born again christians cannot be demon possessed once filled and baptised in the Holy Ghost.
    Christians can be oppressed but never possessed.
    What believers have failed to follow on the details about the disasters happening in Spain is that the Spanish government has allowed homosexuality and same sex marriages. Under judgement, I would say yes as what is happening in the USA.
    His judgement will fall upon the United Kingdom once given approval going down that road. His judgement has already begun upon the UK if you have not already noticed.
    It is similar with the Christian Church whether htis is agreed or not.
    Whilst under Grace, Almighty God will not tolerate SIN when two fingers are held up at Him, when folk continue to do their own thing in His sight, and those who mock Him with His word written in the Bible in church or outside of church.
    REPENTANCE is commanded and REPENTANCE should be proclaimed thoughout the world by the shepherds of His flock. Not doing so has consequences which the church is experiencing and governments, those in authority, and christians who do not take heed.
    Simple and true!!!!!!!

  329. Ibelieve Sep 3rd 2012

    Shelly Dyson

    You have some very strange doctrines. I do not see many of the things you mention as being in the Bible.

    No Where does the Bible say 200 hundred angels left the presence of God. Nor do we see Gadreel in the garden of Eden.

    You should take the time to read the Bible and not go by what some man has told you.

    In Him,

  330. watchful Sep 3rd 2012

    It is no longer I who sin but sin living in me – how gracious is our God through Jesus Christ to no longer impute our sin to us!………as long as we are fighting the good fight of faith it is proof that we are born again…..this is why we go through trials and temptations, for the proving of our faith. Jesus came for the “sick”, He can’t do much for those who think they are “well”. The main reason for taking up our cross and following Jesus is to crucify our old man (from which proceeds all our sin) to death (but also to carry intercession). All flesh is the same and prone to all the same sins under the sun, “the fall” was complete for each of us….different things will manifest more or less in different people for different reasons, is all, and there but for the grace of God go we. But if we think we are without sin the truth is not in us because the truth is the light by which we know we are not without sin.

    Keep on keeping on Andrew J – Jesus Christ is our victory and He will complete the good work that He began in us. Coming to Christ was the beginning of the battle…..I remember that well when I was born again, how a battle suddenly began in me and how it does rage on sometimes, and we know from scripture the battle is at its height in the last days ! I don’t know, but if there are any for whom this is not true, maybe they are the ones who should be concerned, and I could be wrong but I thought this was a normal part of the Christian life..

  331. I think that in the main this is what might be happening here – ie unbelievers, secularists, New Agers, humanists, etc, will say we are being unloving – these thoughts often/mainly being put in their minds by the devil, as his most effective way of attack to make Christians look bad generally, or to trip up and silence critics who say homosexual behaviour is immoral. Then those Christians who dont wish to stand on the word of God/bible and are concerned about being accused of being unkind themselves – who dont wish to suffer even the slightest form of persecution from the secular society for the truth then choose to side with the world on this issue. Once they take that possition they will then join in the attacks on bible believing Christiasn who state the truth openly on this issue. Its a sign they are already compromising on what God says is immoral and siding with the world and are very weak in their faith already.

  332. I dont feel very strongly on this issue having been in a pro homosexual behaviour culture most of my life in the UK but we have to at least aknowledge that the bible teaches it is wrong and not what God wants, not say its OK to behave like this, (sodomy, bigery etc is not OK). We judge the behaviour not the person.

  333. That should have been buggery not biggery

  334. Andrew Sep 4th 2012

    Sorry, Watchful and Andrew J.

    If your theology says that people can be “Christian” and still involved with major sin, then your theology is false and directly contradicts everything the New Testament says.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  335. watchful Sep 4th 2012

    I don’t profess any theology Andrew, I’m just a pilgrim navigating the dangers, toils and snares by God’s grace, and if I’ve misunderstood anything the Lord has been teaching me then I pray He will correct me. I’m not sure what you mean exactly by “involved in major sin”, but most people don’t seem to be fully sanctified the instant they are born again, we seem to receive only a deposit guaranteeing what is to come, and then we begin working out our salvation with fear and trembling, and fighting the good fight of faith. I would be surprised if that doesn’t agree with your understanding of the New Testament..? When I was born again some things fell off me instantly and other things me and Jesus have been working on together in the meantime. Since He has promised to complete the good work he began in me, then I assume it is implied that there must still be some work left to do after we come to faith in Christ.

  336. Andrew Sep 4th 2012

    Of course.

    I was just arguing the point that you cannot be a Christian and be an adulterer or homosexual at the same time – according to the New Testament.

    Bless you!


  337. Hi Andrew,

    When any of us are saved (born again by the Spirit of God) we are completely dominated by sin (this is what scripture teaches)…

    And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, (Ephesians 2:1 NASB)

    We repent “holis bolis” for all our sin and offer it up to the Lord for forgiveness – we let it go…

    He forgives us from all our sin…

    But not all sin “falls off us” practically at conversion…

    Some does, some doesn’t…

    That’s why all of us are a work in progress… :-)

    For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6 NASB)

    It is the Grace of God which transforms us into the Likeness of Christ…

    We know what we are in the flesh (our old selves)…

    For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; (Romans 7:18a NASB)

    Knowing we are holy in His sight – Accepted in the Beloved – this enables us to go through whatever is required in the process of being made practically holy as our “inner man” is “renewed” day by day as the scripture tells us…

    Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. (2 Corinthians 4:16 NASB)

    We are holy and we are at the same time being made holy…

    And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10 NIV)

    because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:14 NIV)

    Has this been your experience?

    None of us will ever stand before God in our own righteousness but only in the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ…

    Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:19-22 NIV)

    Has this been your experience?

    After being born again none of us want to sin – our new selves don’t want to sin but our old selves still do but the Lord doesn’t count our old selves as us – He sees us as a New Creation – He is the One who goes to work to practically end sin in us – if He didn’t sin would never be ended in us…

    for apart from Me you can do nothing. (John 15:54b NASB)

    I believe that this must have also been your experience (whatever the sin)…

    If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8 NASB)

    Amen brother?

    Do you believe that I am sharing anything unbiblical or unscriptural?

    If you do please let know and I will take it before the Lord…

    Love in the Lord,


  338. Andrew Sep 4th 2012

    Of course. But I repeat what I just said-

    I was just arguing the point that you cannot be a Christian and be an adulterer or homosexual at the same time – according to the New Testament.

    Bless you!


  339. GordonH Sep 4th 2012

    Hi Andrew, can you just clarify for us where the idea of “major sin” comes from, or if you like, the position that one “cannot be a Christian and be an adulterer or homosexual at the same time – accodring to the NT”.

    …blessings in Him…

  340. Andrew Sep 4th 2012

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    “9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

    GALATIANS has a very similar passage.

    Pretty obvious, really, don’t you think?

    Bless you!


  341. Im going back on something i wrote on here yesterday after getting a letter from a freind today who runs a very flexible house group/ alpha type group which is open to unbelievers as well. His agenda is to serve, he does this despite severe pain at times being badly brain damaged for over 20 yrs which was the result of a car crash, that was not his fault. His wife is also presently recovering from cancer and also has diabetes and M.E. He is also extremely supportive and helps others ministries in the background who reach out to the youth. It amazes me that this couple serve God at all with the huge problems they have in their own lives. He opened his meeting up to DISCUSS HOMOSEXALITY recently. Anyway although put subtly he appears to be open to others having homosexual relationships within a loving environment and to sex changes too. Hand on heart tho I just cant apply what i said about such Christians to him since he is not a weak Christian in that sense, studied the scriptures on the issue but doesn’t appear to trust them(?). He’s not lining up with the world to escape being criticised or judged by them – he has already suffered greatly in serving God and he is not attacking any Christians who take the bible literally either. I believe he has become CONFUSED by the principalities and powers over our lands that now make homosexuality appear normal and therefore not necessarily immoral, that make the ancient scriptures appear less authoritative in our day and society.

    I think what he is forgetting though is that mankind is fallen, with a distorted sinful nature and that this is what opens the human race to homosexual tendencies or other things that are not acceptable to God. Its not just a case that if someone is born a certain way then that must be natural for them and we must accept the behaviour that comes from this. As Christians tho we need to be putting forward the alternative route for such people not just saying it is wrong. That’s sanctification can heal a person from homosexual behaviour/ tendencies or at least bring them under control. That as believers we are not just going in denial that homosexuality as being a real and powerful force or suggesting that it can be overcome with willpower alone, ie suppression. The trouble is so few of us are experiencing genuine sanctification of any sort in our own life.

  342. watchful Sep 4th 2012

    Well, this is how I understand it: If a person continues to live in gross sins and their conscience is not terribly bothered I would say they probably haven’t yet received Christ, and so they are still an idolater, or fornicator, swindler or what-have-you. If a genuine believer continues to live in sin after receiving Christ their conscience will be seared and they are in danger of losing their salvation. There are also believers who backslide in their faith and go back to their former way of life, but it is not impossible for them to come back to the Lord, I think most of us have heard the testimonies of such. It’s possible for a believer to be tempted and fall, though not irretrievably, because if we confess our sins and repent, God is faithful to forgive and cleanse. Some believer’s battles are more difficult and of longer duration than others, that is just the reality of life, and in a war there may be setbacks and skirmishes lost, though the war itself be won eventually.

    There is an example in 1 Cor. 5 who fell in sin, and was put out of fellowship for a time, but then in 2 Cor. 5-11, Paul told them to forgive the man and receive him back again.

  343. JeffM Sep 4th 2012

    Andrew J Horton, you said,”Do you believe that I am sharing anything unbiblical or unscriptural?”

    Well , yes and yes, I used to believe pretty much the same as what you are saying, I was so wrong. I did not see it because if you assume your own “walk” is what it means to follow Jesus, then you will try to make scripture “fit ” your personal experience, that leads to self-deception.

    Your quote…… “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8 NASB)”

    This verse ,in the context of the entire book of 1 John,is only usefull for dealing with people who commit a sin but think that what they did is not sinning. It is not a teaching that we still have sin in us after Jesus is our Salvation.And I do mean sin by thought or deed and the will to do more of any sin.

    Growth in Christ is not a struggle to stop sinning.Growing in Him is learning more of His Will and His Ways ,you know very little at first.But if you know Him as Lord you will obey Him, you need to learn the “what” to obey , not learn “will ” I obey. If you struggle with sinning you are really struggling with belief that Jesus is who He says He is .

    To agree with God is more than saying what He says is wrong ,is wrong. God defines wrong as “do not do it”. If you say something is wrong and still do it, you decieve yourself, you do not agree with The Lord really. If anyone sins it is because they want to, you do not struggle with sin ,you struggle against The God who says “do not do it”. It is easy to obey Jesus , He is The Way.

    1 John 2:4-6

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    4 Whoever says, I know Him [I perceive, recognize, understand, and am acquainted with Him] but fails to keep and obey His commandments (teachings) is a liar, and the Truth [[a]of the Gospel] is not in him.

    5 But he who keeps (treasures) His Word [who bears in mind His precepts, who observes His message in its entirety], truly in him has the love of and for God been perfected (completed, reached maturity). By this we may perceive (know, recognize, and be sure) that we are in Him:

    6 Whoever says he abides in Him ought [as [b]a personal debt] to walk and conduct himself in the same way in which He walked and conducted Himself.

    1 John 3:9-10

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    9 No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [a]habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

    10 By this it is made clear who take their nature from God and are His children and who take their nature from the devil and are his children: no one who does not practice righteousness [who does not conform to God’s will in purpose, thought, and action] is of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother (his fellow [b]believer in Christ).

    1 John 5:3-5

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    3 For the [true] love of God is this: that we do His commands [keep His ordinances and are mindful of His precepts and teaching]. And these orders of His are not irksome (burdensome, oppressive, or grievous).

    4 For whatever is born of God is victorious over the world; and this is the victory that conquers the world, even our faith.

    5 Who is it that is victorious over [that conquers] the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on that fact]?

  344. P.S There again maybe the reason why my freind thinks the world is right and the bible is wrong about homosexuality is plain and simply because he had become weak and compromised in the faith? Perhaps when challenged to accept that all paths lead to God he will also abandon the biblical doctrine on salvation as well??

  345. DonaldN Sep 4th 2012

    I totally agree with Andrew. In fact, there is proof of the devil’s game plan. It is the same game plan that worked so effectively with the unmarried heterosexual issue on television. A little at a time to weaken the minds that would be against it, until it is blatant and accepted as normal. There is hardly a show on television that does not promote unmarried sex. Now the devil is moving further into the homosexual issue. If the Church ignores this issue then homosexuality will become as rampant within the church as unmarried sex is now.

  346. The foundation of God stands sure, having this seal: The Lord knows them that are His. And, let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity (wickedness). 2 Timothy 2:19

    And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Galatians 5:24

  347. Andrew Sep 5th 2012

    Yes, Donald. Sexual sin was serious before, but the problem with rampant Homosexuality is that it is basically a “civilization-ending” disease. In other words, our culture is nearing it’s end.

    We are supposed to be “salt and light” in the midst of this.

    Bless you!


  348. DonaldN Sep 5th 2012

    I agree Andrew, but I must ask this question. Do you believe our culture is doomed or is there a chance of turning it. In Bible history, Nineveh is the only culture that repented (and I believe they were not doomed because of homosexuallity). All thru history all other homosexual cultures have ended. I know we must make a stand, but is it only for our own people (believers), or do you think there is hope for society?

  349. Andrew Sep 5th 2012

    America has one last chance at real Revival, in my view – particularly getting towards the end of this decade. It would have to be a true “Repentance” Revival.

    The rest of the Western world is in terrible trouble – much further down the “secular” slope.

    Christianity is in steep decline in those countries. (UK, Europe, NZ, Australia, etc) A very sad and alarming situation.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  350. Hi JeffM,

    When God views any human being he either sees them as a Saint or as a sinner…

    If Christ is their Passover then they are a Saint…

    If Christ isn’t their Passover then they are a sinner…

    If they are a Saint then they are not under condemnation…

    If they are a sinner then the wrath of God abides on them…

    God knows everyone’s heart and He knows whether someone is a Saint or a sinner…

    Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. (Romans 5:9 NASB)

    Love in the Lord,


  351. Andrew Sep 5th 2012

    Agreed, Andrew.

    But anyone who is involved with the type of sin that Paul outlined in the above Scripture is kidding themselves if they think they are a Christian.


    -Andrew Strom.

  352. JeffM Sep 5th 2012

    Andrew J Horton, you have invented your own definition for the word sinner. We can’t just ignore what is in the dictionary, or a conversation becomes meaningless.


    a person who sins; transgressor.

    I looked up Christ is our Passover and the passage is talking about kicking someone out of the fellowship because they still sin.Read the whole chapter if you want, these verses make my point that the Saints don’t sin, sinners sin.

    1 Corinthians 5

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, impurity of a sort that is condemned and does not occur even among the heathen; for a man has [his own] father’s wife
    .7 Purge (clean out) the old leaven that you may be fresh (new) dough, still uncontaminated [as you are], for Christ, our Passover [Lamb], has been sacrificed.
    11 But now I write to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of [Christian] brother if he is known to be guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater [whose soul is devoted to any object that usurps the place of God], or is a person with a foul tongue [railing, abusing, reviling, slandering], or is a drunkard or a swindler or a robber. [No] you must not so much as eat with such a person.

    You quote romans 5, well romans 6 is all about no longer sinning and it is all in context with chapter 5.

    Romans 6:14-15

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    14 For sin shall not [any longer] exert dominion over you, since now you are not under Law [as slaves], but under grace [as subjects of God’s favor and mercy].

    15 What then [are we to conclude]? Shall we sin because we live not under Law but under God’s favor and mercy? Certainly not!

    Jesus tells us all to obey Him, I don’t know why you think we don’t have to , or just “so called ” trying to obey is ok, it is not what The Word teaches.The saints are the ones who will do whatever Jesus Messiah says to do, the sinners refuse to obey all He commands.God looks at what we do to decide where our hearts are.

  353. They can legislate till the cows come home. Call it what ever they like, but is not, and never can be, marriage!
    Everyone in the trade professions knows this!. No one can not marry male to male, female to female. or in nature
    Gov’s can pass legislation to force us allow them to sit in the Church but that shall not can not, make them part of the Body! I f that eventuates and our preaching remains sound, they will either become christian be delivered, or leave.

    I do not believe we can “stem the tide “‘ ‘Tis the last days , 2 Tim 3 is specific,. it will only get worse.
    The media are of no help, the whole system is rotten from the head to toe, ( Isaiah 1) “If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
    But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”
    i believe it will only be finally fixed when Jesus returns.
    We should pray for our enemies do good ( proffer sound teaching) to those who hate us!
    Isaiah 2 will soon become relevant the “Mountain” is the government of Jesus as opposed to the rotten world system we now live in but are NOT OF.
    Pr Michael

  354. Oops a double negative? please ignore the “not” in the in the No one can … marry!
    Pr Michael

  355. Hi Andrew,

    If the Lord looks down from heaven and sees that all someone has in their hearts is a desire to practice the sins which Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (or any other type of sin – as per James 2:8-13) then that person is not saved – they are still under His wrath…

    If the Lord looks down from heaven and sees that sin within someone (Romans 7:17) still has a desire to practice any particular sin but the new heart which the Lord has given that person does not want to practice that sin (whatever sin it is) and that His Holy Spirit within them is warring on behalf of that new heart to gain victory in that person’s heart (no matter what that particular sin is) so that they will be able to practice what their new heart wants to practice, i.e. righteousness, and not what their old heart wants to practice, i.e. wickedness, then the Lord is for that person, they are saved, they are not under condemnation and He will pull them through…

    If anyone has a new heart they are saved…

    Whatever “involvement” they may still have with sin (whether it be inward or outward) will not last…

    The Lord will not let it last…

    But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:18 NASB)

    Love in the Lord,


  356. Andrew Sep 5th 2012

    But so many claim the exact thing you claim here, Andrew, and say they are “struggling” with fornication or homosexual behaviour and claim to be “Christian” all the while.

    Paul was very direct and left no room for this at all-

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    “9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

  357. Hi Andrew,

    The Lord knows the hearts of all His own and their behaviour over the entire course of their lives will prove that they belong to Him…

    But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (Romans 4:5 NASB)

    Love in the Lord,


  358. Stephen Shek Sep 5th 2012

    Look at Revelation. If the harlot is the USA and the abomination is this homosexual and gay push. Looks like God already know that the devil will use the worse of all abomination to corrupt a blessed nation. We have let the corruption in and it is now fermenting. American have become selfish – all the take care of number 1 first have sink into the mind of everyone. The rich is not taking care of the poor. Everyone is buried in their own fantasy of a loving God that no matter what we do, He will love us. If what I said above is really what revelation is about, then The Judgement is near.

    We an pray
    We an fast as a penance that may be we have not done enough.
    We can voice up every opportunity we have and wake everyone up.

    Lord have Mercy

  359. Andrew J H. With respect.
    To believe is to rely on, trust in, and obey.
    To obey is better than sacrifice.
    Man’s heart is wicked and deceptively so.
    The church if for Saints, not sinners! It is the place where sinners can be transformed by the renewing (metamorphosis) of their heart – mind.
    Saints who fornicate are in dire trouble because it is impossible to renew them again through repentance. Esau found no place of repentance after he sold his birthright, even though he sought it carefully! And with tears!
    The Spirit filled receives a precious, glorious, pure and holy birthright, the example and warning is simple do not eeven contemplate selling it.

    It is wrong teaching to allow any spirit filled, born again person to think that they can fornicate, repent, then come back (after a determined period outside ) to continue in fellowship.
    To me allowing/teaching this is equivalent to selling indulgences!. It is akin to giving folk a “fornication ticket – you will be out for x months!” As a pastor, i see such that get deceived by this sin are in the hands of the Lord and not mine, my job is to ensure that such as contemplate doing these things understand they automatically put themselves outside of the church, Imagine the harm this not adopting policy puts on young folk with all the hormones pumping “Its ok, pastor will only put us out for twelve months”
    The church is to be kept Holy and spotless.
    In God’s eyes, sexual intercourse is marriage!
    This is my view from scripture and the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

    Pr Michael

  360. PS to above “if they can not contain “let” (insist) them marry, let each man have his own (one) wife.
    Pr Michael

  361. GordonH Sep 5th 2012

    First, let me say that I think Andrew’s article is quite accurate.
    The devil is making use of homosexuality (and sexuality in general, plus many other issues) to escalate the downward trajectory of the human race at a frightening pace !
    And, just as Jesus said it would be, yes it is definitely a sign of the end of this age.
    My take is that the question about Christians and sin is a different issue altogether. We should always be careful to make the distinction between the things of this world, and the things pertaining to the Body of Christ.
    Firstly, let us be clear about what the gospel is…
    The good news is that Jesus has taken all the sin of the human race upon himself, on the cross, and has paid the price for it (1 Jn 2:2).
    This means that when we as individuals believe into Christ, and are identified (united) with Him in His death and resurrection, we are born from above (Jn 3), and we enter into a new race – one in which we have both human and spiritual birth, and consequently we have ‘free and open conversation with God’. So Paul can say, for example – ‘I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me’.
    Now when we look at the final judgement – the Great White Throne Judgement of Revelation ch 20, we see that this judgement is not on the basis of sin. Clearly it can’t be, because Jesus has done away with that issue, and Father can no longer judge on that basis. So the judgement looks at two things – 1) “The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books”, and 2) “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire”.
    As far as I can see, what is happening here, is that Father is showing up the old human nature (the natural man) for what he is. It doesn’t matter _what_ has been done in a man’s life – all of his activities, no matter how good they are, will amount to nothing at all. The only thing that really counts is whether or not his name is in the Book of Life or not. Clearly that relates to whether this man is born from above. That is – does he have the Life of Christ dwelling within him or not (remember it is the ‘Lamb’s Book of Life’) ? THAT IS THE ISSUE ! Every man will be judged on the basis of whether Christ is THERE or not ! I.e. _Christ_ will form the basis of the judgement. He is the ‘head of the corner’, and the measuring line and the plumb line.
    The dialogue that has been going on here then relates to the age-old questions of 1) whether a Christian can sin, and 2) whether there is such a thing as ‘major sins’.
    1) Clearly, the new testament does teach that Christians can sin. An analysis of Romans will lead quite quickly to that conclusion (see ch 7). However, as both Paul and John say – one who has been born from above, and has a heart that is wholly committed to Him will not continue in sin – they will “love the light”. This is the life-long process of the death of self, that Christ’s life may be revealed in me. (I must decrease and He must increase.)
    2) Now, what of this question of ‘major sins’ ? It is very important to be clear on the context of passages that we refer to when making critical ‘doctrinal’ judgements. Both passages that Andrew refers to above (1 Cor 6 and Eph 5) relate to the Unity of Believers under the Headship of Christ. To summarise these passages, Paul is saying that when a man is born from above, he becomes a part of a new race, who are united by the fact that the Zoe Life of God dwells in them, by His Spirit. As these ones allow the thought of Father to govern their actions, so they become wholly united with others who are also governed by Father’s thoughts. We (the Body of believers, who are connected to the Head, and governed by the Head’s thoughts) can know WHO is a part of the Body, by their actions. 1 Jn ch’s 1 & 2 discuss this issue in depth. Especially see 1 Jn 1:7. The bottom line is that ALL of us Christ-ones commit sins – every day. The fact of whether we do or don’t commit sins, and whether they are of a certain type or not is not the issue in relation to ‘salvation’. The issue is whether or not we have the “Life of Christ” in us, and whether we “love the light” or not. The best synopsis of this issue that I have come across is in this article – “The Five Chairs” ( I strongly suggest having a prayerful read of this article.
    I would add to this one further comment. The issue of the brother who ‘has his father’s wife’ in 1 Cor and his reconciliation in 2 Cor indicates how these issues are to be dealt with in the Body, and yes, they must be dealt with strongly.
    I hope that this contribution has helped to clarify things for at least someone !
    “From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.”
    …Blessings in Him… Gordon H.

  362. Gordon H
    Scipture must be used to interpret scripture
    we need to “rightly divide the word of truth” (2 Tim 2:15). Peter tells us in 2 Pet 3:16, speaking of Paul’s letters: “in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. He also says “beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.” He is warning of those who wrest (wrestle, twist) with the scriptures, making excuse for wickedness

    “Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
    That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
    For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

    But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own.
    For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
    ******But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; ***** (When folk are born again they stop forever these evil practices)
    “I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
    Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge”

    How dare we asses a sin God says is His prerogative.
    ” But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace”

    How dare we presume to know better than God!
    How dare we asses a sin that god says shall be His is His prerogative (blaspheming the Ho;y Ghost) as something we can not tolerate in His church?
    In my book the only one who can blaspheme the Spirit is the one that returns to wallow in the mire – the dog to his vomit – The unsaved non christian does not even know the Spirit of God ! How then can he blaspheme what he does not know?
    Matthew 24:
    And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall become cold. But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.
    Pr Michael
    Fornication must not be “named” (known, present, found to exist) in the church.

    Pr Michael

  363. Ibelieve Sep 5th 2012

    Galatians 6:6-8
    6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.

    7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

    If What Andrew J Horton is saying is true, people who call themselves Christians can just live anyway they want they will still go to heaven. Sounds like once saved always saved doctrine.

    Lord Bless,

  364. Great article of exhortation, Andrew. I thank you for addressing the issue.

    I have not had time to read any of the posts. However, I would like to add something which may be helpful to some people. There is a book I’ve found helpful entitled:
    “CORRECT, NOT POLITICALLY CORRECT” by author Frank Turek. It is published by, P.O. Box 78956, Charlotte, NC 28271 (USA) (

    I believe there is the sin of homosexuality which can stand alone. I also believe there are demonic spirits which actively possess individuals and push homosexuality and the homosexual agenda. In dealing with those trapped by the sin of homosexuality I believe it helps to realize there is a difference between the individual trapped by the sin and those who are militantly pushing homosexuality and the homosexual agenda.

    I am from Canada where this homosexual agenda has pretty much gone to the limits. In my lifetime I have seen my country go from homosexual acts being punished under the criminal code to the point where homosexual “marriage” is allowed and their agenda is being rammed down the throats of our children in elementary school. If one publicly states the historical, medical, scientific, philosophical, and moral truths of homosexuality, that person risks being thrown into jail for promoting a “hate crime.”

    We truly do live in an age where good is evil and evil is good. However, as Andrew has stated, THIS MUST NOT STOP US from reaching out with the love and gospel of Christ to those who are trapped by this sin.

    There are many homosexuals who wind up committing suicide or slowing killing themselves with drugs, alcohol, etc. The militant homosexual agenda twists this by claiming these deaths are a result of continuing “homophobia.” In reality, I believe many of these deaths are a result of the spiritual, psychological, and physical corruption which the sin of homosexuality brings. I have known many homosexuals and while they may wear a mask of contentment, behind that mask many are tormented and longing for that which satisfies.

    We know that it is only Jesus Christ who satisfies and we must keep ministering to the lost – those trapped by homosexuality and those who are trapped by other sin.

    I’m sure it’s been stated above in other posts, but let us remember that this is not a battle against flesh and blood – even in the case of the militant homosexual. It is a spiritual battle which must first be won on our knees.

    I encourage you, brothers and sisters, to faithfully keep fighting the fight. True love for the lost (regardless of how that sin is manifested) can only be shown by the one who loves enough to suffer legal prosecution, spiritual and physical persecution, and even death at the hands of those he/she loves.

    May the God of true love grant us an abundance of His grace and the power and boldness which the Holy Spirit gives to reach out to these who are on the road to hell.

    God bless,

  365. Foolhardy Fred Sep 5th 2012

    They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.(John 16:2-3)

  366. JeffM Sep 5th 2012

    Is Gnostic the correct term for the belief that people are somehow two “body and spirit” instead of one, and the body sins but the spirit is still holy before God? Or what is the name for this type of teaching? Not that it needs a label to be opposing The Word.

    It is missing the issue to argue from scripture ,do not sin, because they think it was not them sinning, it was their body that sinned but they( Spirit me )are still righteous. The Word does not teach that we are dual beings. Body and spirit are parts of the whole you. If “body” you sins ,”spirit” you sins also.

    Or is this the .. because I know Jesus I will not get blamed by God for sinning. Man’s gospel.

    Genesis 3:4

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    4 But the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die,

    Genesis 2:16-17

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and blessing and calamity you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

    The same lie still works with those who refuse to believe what The Father says.

  367. watchful Sep 5th 2012

    Now I see that when we rely on our own minds to figure things out and try to explain them, the result is a confusing babble (Babylon) and we miss the mark. We can only understand the things of the Spirit by the Spirit, so Father I pray you will forgive us – help us to wait for you and look to you, and lean not to our own understanding.

  368. Averyl Sep 6th 2012

    We wonder why there’s no revival.
    As soon as there is any sign of it, as soon as a person in “saved”, – we the Church start “laying down the Law”, the very thing we were saved from. The Law separates us from God. The blood of Jesus bridges that gap.
    Not only that, churches start confusing the newly saved, by saying “we are the true kingdom people, come with us”.

    Did Jesus or the apostles speak of :big sins & little sins”?
    No, all sin is sin.
    We all sin. If any posters on this sight no longer sin, please come out & tell us.
    We must try to have the victory over sin but I know Christians who have committed suicide because they were unable to conquer specific sin.

    Some say we are not “dual beings”.
    God looks on the heart & so should we.
    We should look for the fruit of the Spirit, – by THIS shall ALL men know who are true disciples.

  369. JeffM Sep 6th 2012

    Averyl , I don’t get tired of seeing The Word posted here ,but I can’t help but see that you do not believe what it says.You want to talk about the fruit of the spirit, fine ,but God’s Word has more to say……………

    Galatians 5:22-23

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    22 But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,

    23 Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[a]that can bring a charge].

    Now look at what comes right before this.

    Galatians 5:16-21

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    16 But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).

    17 For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.

    18 But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.

    19 Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,

    20 Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),

    21 Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Verse 21 says “I warn you”. It is clear the bible says you can not do these things(sin). If you sin then repent and obey The Lord, without repentence there can be no forgiveness of sin. Repent does not mean “I am sorry”, it means you will not do it anymore.I do what The Lord tells me to do and do not do what The Father says do not do. So you can not hide in the crowd and say “We all sin” so it must be okay. Jesus is The Way( to love and obey).If you sin, Jesus is how you stop, it works every time.You go your own way (to death) if you keep sinning.

  370. Kevin Sep 6th 2012

    To all who would cast the first stone , who would offer to remove the speck from anothers eye;

    Have you measured yourselves against the standard that Christ set ?

    Are you raising the dead ?

    Are you giving sight to the blind ?

    If not then why ?

    Are we not all short in some way of the example that Christ and the early apostles set ?

    Let us look for the log in our own eye least we stone to death in our own blindness , another that Christ paid for with His shed blood.

  371. Foolhardy Fred Sep 6th 2012

    JeffM you have summed it all up very well with the following scripture:

    Genesis 3:4

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    4 But the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die,

    Genesis 2:16-17

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and blessing and calamity you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

    The same lie still works with those who refuse to believe what The Father says.

  372. JeffM Sep 6th 2012

    Kevin, it is pure drama to equate getting your feelings hurt, by being told you need to repent and obey Jesus, with some poor woman who was about to be literally stoned to death.Jesus rescued her, and told her to” go ,and sin no more.”Here is the standard Christ set,

    John 14:15

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    15 If you [really] love Me, you will keep (obey) My commands.
    Only God can raise the dead and heal the blind , not man.

    James 1:22

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    22 But be doers of the Word [obey the message], and not merely listeners to it, betraying yourselves [into deception by reasoning contrary to the Truth].

    Do you really think “We don’t do what Jesus says” is what The Father taught you to believe? He did not.

  373. Kevin Sep 6th 2012

    The bible shows that the pharisees always howled with self righteousness and were quick to use their knowledge of the scriptures to condemn and burden others , yet did the bible ever show those same pharisees raising the dead or giving sight to the blind ?

    The true called out servants of Christ walked in His power and authority .

    Is not our lack of ” revival ” unbelief ?

    Is this not sin ?

    Do not many of us walk in the sin of unbelief ?

    If so, are we wise to point out the speck in another’s eye when we still have a log in our own eye ?

    Were we not commanded to not argue amongst one another about the meaning of the scriptures ?

    Are any of us the final judge of what truly lay in the heart of another ?

  374. Kevin Sep 6th 2012

    If we are going to take the moral high ground in matters of scripture, don’t we need to ensure first that we have our own house in order ?

  375. Kevin Sep 6th 2012

    Will not Christ be as hard on us as we are on others ?

  376. Kevin Sep 6th 2012

    It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict people of sin.

    If we lack the presence and authority of the Holy Spirit working through us, to not only convict, but deliver people from sin, then what is wrong with our own walk ?

  377. Andrew Sep 6th 2012

    I guess that means-

    No-one is allowed to speak up on issues of righteousness unless they have raised at least 2 dead people before breakfast.

    Nice one.

    -Andrew Strom.

  378. Kevin Sep 6th 2012

    I agree with the basis of the article posted here for comment.

    We can’t negotiate with demons or win this battle with words alone.

    If there were servants of Christ called and anointed to this work, the conviction of the sin of homosexuality and the power to deliver people from this sin would be present at the meetings.

    Because of this the world would know the truth of how God sees homosexuality.

    Those who chose to continue in it would know the truth and hide from it , rather than stand on a platform demanding us to accept their sin as being of God.

    Those trapped in this sin would know that they could come to Christ to be set free from it.

    Is not this the way of Christ and the example of the bible ?

  379. Kevin Sep 6th 2012

    ..meant above.. is not this the way of Christ and the example of the bible ?

  380. Andrew Sep 6th 2012

    Whether the prophets were demonstrating “power” or not – from the Old to the New Testaments they were still anointed and required to speak the TRUTH – no matter the “demonstration”.

    “Signs” are not the centre of the gospel – speaking TRUTH is.

    God sometimes withdraws all ‘signs’ and requires people to hunger after Truth without them. Jesus did this.

    I do not wait for “signs” before opening my mouth to stand for Truth. I do agree that there must be “anointing” to effectively do this. There may be “signs”. There may not.

    Makes no difference in speaking Truth or not.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  381. Kevin Sep 6th 2012

    The other consideration is that what we are seeing is the fulfillment of scripture and bible prophecy concerning the times we live in, and that we are seeing the ” giving them over to their strong delusions for they had not a love of the truth “

  382. Andrew Sep 6th 2012


    And preachers of righteousness are always required at such times. “Signs” or no signs.

    Noah is a good example.

    Bless you!


  383. watchful Sep 6th 2012

    This seems to be a question of the letter that kills or the spirit that gives life.

  384. Foolhardy Fred Sep 6th 2012

    There was a time when even the unconverted would refer to a Christian as a “God fearing man”. With this theme so prominently and frequently mentioned throughout the Scripture – both Old & New Testaments – it is regrettable that in our day it can be rare for a sermon to be preached on this most important topic.

    Jesus has never suggested we should wink at sin as that is NOT what the true Gospel is about. That Jesus told the woman to “Go and sin NO more” is clearly the issue here.

  385. Foolhardy Fred Sep 6th 2012

    Tragically in these days of wholesale apostasy where genuine bible based christianity has been overrun by various occultic, new age hybrid religions daring to masquerade as christianity the fact that the carnal mind is incapable of apprehending spiritual truth has never been more painfully obvious.

    Uncontrolled lust of any kind is and always will be the express way to hell.

    Regardless of the nature of the rebellion against His Word God requires repentance and a life lived in faithfulness to His Word in all aspects.

  386. Hi Michael & Gary,

    And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come “? Their condemnation is just. (Romans 3:8 NASB)

    When Paul preached the truth of God’s Grace he was accused of preaching, “Let us sin so that grace may increase” (Romans 6:1)…

    Those who do not understand God’s Grace view God’s Grace as a licence to sin…

    The opposite is actually true…

    Once you know that you are forgiven you do not want to sin…

    The point that I am making is that I am never righteous because of what I do or do not do…

    No matter how practically holy I become I will only be righteous in the sight of God because of my faith in the Blood of Jesus as my Passover (my Propitiation)…

    On this basis I have been declared righteous, I am right now righteous and I will never be anything but righteous in the sight of God…

    For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, (Colossians 1:13 NASB)

    My heart always feels for the one who has been saved out of any perverse sort of background because the condemnation from the enemy is so intense…

    I know because I have felt that condemnation from the enemy myself (He doesn’t want to let go of what he’s lost)…

    As we “walk out” of whatever perverse sort of background we have had – whether these sins were visited upon us or whether we’ve chosen these sins for ourselves (we are all guilty of all the sins we commit – or want to commit in our hearts – because God views us each as Adam or Eve in the Garden) – as the Holy Spirit reveals His truth to us in our hearts – then these sins practically “fall off” us…

    This has been my experience – practical deliverance…

    God knows when this will occur for each of His own – it would be possible for us to mis-judge one who did belong to the Lord as being one who didn’t if we couldn’t discern things from the Lord’s perspective…


    Someone else mentioned the Gnostics…

    The Gnostics said that it didn’t matter what you did in your body only what you did in your spirit…

    The Lord pronounces you righteous, a new creation, holy, Accepted in the Beloved at the point of salvation – nothing you do after this can change what He has pronounced over you on the basis of the faith which He has given you…

    He protects your faith and makes sure that you stand and grow and become more like Him – that is His Express Purpose…

    who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)

    and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30 NASB)

    It is the faithfulness of God which keeps us – this is what gives us confidence to give up everything in our pursuit of Him – we want to become like Him because we love Him not because we are scared of losing our salvation – which He has told us is a free gift…

    Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass. (1 Thessalonians 5:24 NASB)

    If you were alive at the time of Lot how would you have judged Lot’s behaviour?

    He was living in the middle of a town of homosexual people, he choose to live there, surely Lot should have lost his salvation for this?

    How does God describe Lot?

    (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), (2 Peter 2:8 NASB)

    A righteous man…

    With a righteous soul…

    The word soul is psuche (soul) in the Greek…

    Meaning that the Lord credited Lot’s mind, will and emotions (his soul) as righteous…

    This is what the Lord does with each of us who believe in His Name…

    Yes, we grow in Grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ…

    No, we might not instantaneously, “drop” (practically) all sin – no matter what that sin is – at the point of salvation (we will repent for all sin at the point of salvation and then produce deeds in keeping with repentance over the remainer of our lives – more and more and more as He enables us) – but we will as scripture says “go from strength to strength and appear before Him in Zion”…

    No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better. (Luke 5:39 KJV)

    That is why we have the pattern of Romans 6, 7 & 8…

    Rather than this being a “one time journey” from Romans 6 to Romans 7 to Romans 8 it is a “many times journey” through that pattern for the various different sins which have manifested in our lives – this has been my experience – the Lord stripping me “one layer at a time” and taking me deeper and exposing more of the sin within me – sin which I didn’t even know was there at the point of salvation – and removing it for His Glory…

    If any of us were ever to condemn one who actually belonged to Christ because in our eyes they weren’t showing “enough fruit” would have to bear the sadness of that action before the Lord…

    Yes, there are a whole lot of people out there who claim to know the Lord who don’t but I wouldn’t want to be one who brought an accusation against one of God’s Elect when He was taking them through that practical transition in behaviour (following their conversion) between “the world” and “His Kingdom”…

    Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; (Romans 8:33 NASB)

    Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. (Mark 9:42 NASB)

    Sure if someone claims to know the Lord but is living in a blatent and unrepentantly gay or lesbian (or any other kind of sinful) lifestyle and they see no need to change (as I stated previously in one of my posts above) and believe that the Lord doesn’t want to change them, i.e. stop them living in that kind of lifestyle, then I do not believe that these ones have been born again…

    The place of freedom for those who are trapped in a gay or lesbian lifestyle – those who do not presently know the Lord – is to understand the Unconditional Love of God…

    Once they understand that He will forgive their sin and remember them no more and transform them into His Likeness, i.e. get rid of their gay and lesbian lifestyles and all that goes with it, while not condemning them along the way for the battle which will rage in their hearts between sin within them and His Holy Spirit – once He gives them the repentance and the faith to give their sin to Him and submit to Him and hand over their lives to Him – then He will come in to their hearts and begin the “clean up” in their lives…

    This is what you would both desire for those caught in a gay or lesbain lifestyle is it not, for them to be transformed into the Image of Christ and become like Him (there is no sin in Him)?

    It is what the Lord desires for them…

    For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:17-18 NASB)

    My experience is when the Lord brings me to a new level of deliverance that it comes out of me in prayer that the Lord could give this to everyone in the whole world…

    I guess that all who are completely free of all sexual perversion would have had the same experiences which I have in the deliverance which I’ve experienced to date and want all the world to be given the freedom from the presence of sin in their hearts which I’ve just been given…

    If that was the case then they would also exhibit the compassion of Christ towards those who were still trapped in the sins which they’ve been released from (I’ve felt this in the areas which I’ve been released from)…

    It would also show cos people who are into those lifestyles or sin types which they’ve been delivered from – who are being led to Christ – would find deliverance as these ones speak to them and pray for them…


    To depth of our own depravity which the Lord brings us to (as we grow in Him) also adds tenfold to our compassion towards those who are hopelessly lost in these sins (whatever these sins might be) – whatever we have been delivered from we have compassion towards others for…

    This compassion is powerful in setting them – those who are being drawn to the Lord – free…

    Love in the Lord,


  387. Foolhardy Fred Sep 6th 2012

    God himself is the only one who could ever undo what our sins have done. Only He, by his own initiative could make a way to save sinful, willful, rebellious human beings. He could just as easily wipe us all out, and justly send us to hell, but instead He has revealed His Grace, and offered us His own Peace.

    Grace is not merely an abstract principle, the Gospel tells us of the coming of God’s Grace into this world, in the person of Jesus Christ. Titus 2:11 announces that ,

    … the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men…

    Jesus himself is the revelation and channel of God’s amazing Grace, his goodwill towards men who have rebelled against Him, spurned his love and broken His Holy law. How does the Holy God answer sinful men? In Jesus,

    … the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.(Titus 3:4-7)

    Grace is truly amazing to all whose eyes have been opened to their own sin and to the enormous implications of the fall of man. How could God love us? How could he ever want anything to do with us? Yet in Christ, the Love of God reaches out to his own enemies, extending a nail scarred hand of forgiveness and reconciliation to “whosoever wills”.

  388. JeffM Sep 6th 2012

    Christianity has wallowed in half-truths for so long that the result in one’s life of believing half-truths is seen as the normal christian walk.

    The Gospel of Jesus the Christ offers real freedom from sin and sinning. A life long war between flesh and Spirit is of our own making, it is not what God called us to.

    So many can not get truly free because they do not hear The Word of God as a whole, just parts of it mixed with what people think is how Salvation works in us.

    Matthew 28:16-20

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    16 So the eleven talmidim went to the hill in the Galil where Yeshua had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they prostrated themselves before him; but some hesitated. 18 Yeshua came and talked with them. He said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember! I will be with you always, yes, even until the end of the age.”

    “Teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you” is what those who listen to Jesus are doing.

  389. Green Sep 6th 2012


    I wanted to comment on one of your previous posts, asking about the proper term for the belief in the dualism of our nature, and that the spirit, no matter what the body did, would go to Heaven…

    I’m not sure exactly what that is, although I think it might specifically be Manichaeism, a branch of/off from Gnosticism. It is very interesting to look these up on Wikipedia, as a beginning reference.


    They are twists, aren’t they? Somewhat subtle, though somewhat NOT subtle. They also seem to be culturally geared. I’m wondering if it was an attempt to cross Eastern religions (Buddhism) with Christianity as Christianity was spreading.

    I know this is off topic, but I wanted to address this. I think it is VERY important to look into the history of all these things. Hopefully, we can learn from others mistakes and not repeat them. Imagine how very small of a sin, of a misinterpretation of the Scriptures, of the smallest false understanding of God’s nature that later created such a huge, powerful, and destructive belief as Gnosticism! We can learn a lot about what homosexuality will do (and is doing) in the churches by seeing what has happened with other “minor” allowances.

  390. JeffM Sep 6th 2012

    Green, I found it interesting in the wiki that Constantine, who did as much to introduce a mixture into Faith in Christ as anyone, was talked about as if he was defending christianity from mixture.

    Today there is so much mixture in Christianity it looks like the defenders against any new mixture are believers in an old mixture.I can not equate Christianity as we see it today with Christ’s kingdom. There is no ongoing mixture in Our Lord’s Church , it gets delt with or the consequences are destruction of The Faith.

  391. watchful Sep 6th 2012

    Amen to Romans 3:8 Andrew J. It seems we are being misunderstood to be saying that we will not have to given an account for the deeds done in the body. Some have misunderstood “flesh” to be referring to the physical body when what we are talking about is the carnal nature, our old man vs. the new man Christ in us. They don’t seem to be understanding the point at all. We are talking mainly about cleaning the inside of the cup, cleaning the outside is not nearly so difficult and even the Pharisees knew how to do that. I’m sorry to see how everything gets strangely twisted and wrong assumptions are made.

  392. Green Sep 6th 2012


    I understand your sentiment and in a sense, you are absolutely right, there is no mixture in Our Lord’s Church.

    However too, we are a family and for some reason, some divine reason, He allows a mixture for a while, in the hopes of saving us completely, with our will intact and giving us the chance to have time to willingly give that will over to Him. The wheat and tares I think applies here. Tares are not just weeds, but weeds that look exactly like wheat until they have matured some. The Lord knows what He is doing.

    I believe that Catholicism is attributed to Constantine and this is what you refer to. I agree very much with what you are saying, but I also have to conclude that even though I am not a Catholic myself, I do consider them my brothers and sisters in Christ. It is documented that while many Protestants during the reign of Hitler eventually gave in or fled, a lot of the Catholics had an unyielding faith and suffered many things for their Christian convictions. I could not in all good conscience become Catholic, because of what I know. But I think that God may be overlooking some of their rituals because He has seen their heart. Actually, it is a lot of their rituals that might have held them together through the past few centuries. That is more than can be said for the relatively recent and forever more fracturing Protestant strands.

    I would not have considered Catholicism in the light if it were not for G. K. Chesterton. So, I ask that you consider my motives before jumping to considerable distaste (I know I would have before I had read Chesterton).

  393. Green Sep 6th 2012

    I should mention too, that it has recently come to my attention that Hitler used the homosexuals in his staff quite a bit. They were not easily swayed from their views and they had an immense hatred of Christianity. So, the Catholics have successfully stood up to homosexuality for many many years. They still, to this day do not tolerate it (yes, there have been some priests that have been rotten apples…). There is something here to be admired in the Catholics, I think.

  394. JeffM Sep 6th 2012

    Green , we all have our view or opinion and that is interesting to hear , but we have to determine how God views a person or group by His Word. We can go back and forth all day but The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, if we listen, believe and then obey all He says.

    The wheats and tares parable is almost always taught wrong. That is one of the few that Jesus explained too.The field is the world , not His Church. and at the end of the age all things are brought into His Kingdom to be judged (burnt up if you are a tare).
    34 All these things Yeshua said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without using a parable. 35 This was to fulfill what had been spoken through the prophet,

    “I will open my mouth in parables,
    I will say what has been hidden since the creation of the universe.”[a]

    36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. His talmidim approached him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; 38 the field is the world. As for the good seed, these are the people who belong to the Kingdom; and the weeds are the people who belong to the Evil One. 39 The enemy who sows them is the Adversary, the harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are collected and burned up in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out of his Kingdom all the things that cause people to sin and all the people who are far from Torah; 42 and they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where people will wail and grind their teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let him hear!

    So if you do not understand that at the end of this age only His kingdom will remain you would think it means the tares are in His Kingdom now.What was the world will be confronted by a Holy God.

  395. Green Sep 7th 2012


    This is what I am understanding and what I am drawing from:

    Matthew 13:24-30

    “Jesus presented another parable to them saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, “Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?” And he said to them, “An enemy has done this!” The slaves said to him, “Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?” But he said, “No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles and burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.” NIV

    The most significant thing here, is that this parable, as per Jesus, is a comparison to the kingdom of heaven. Do I speak falsely? And in the kingdom of heaven, Jesus sows good seeds. Do I speak the truth? And while the workers slept (not Jesus, for He does not sleep in this parable), the enemy came and sowed tares. Do I speak lies?

    While the workers slept…. the church is asleep now and the enemy has sown many seeds of tares, homosexuality being one that looks very much like real love, real desire, but very REALLY does not have the capacity to bear ANY fruit (a tare looked like a wheat but at the end, never bore fruit. Jesus said at another time, “You shall know them by their fruit.” Well, the tares became evident only when it was harvest time and they produced no fruit. The fruit of the homosexuals is NO FRUIT. They aren’t even capable of being physically fruitful (producing children)!

    So, in the kingdom of heaven, the workers can fall asleep and in the kingdom of heaven, the enemy can come and sow tares. I didn’t say it, the Bible did.

    I don’t assume to know everything and I don’t try to change the truth because I can’t explain everything. I don’t make excuses for it either.

    These truths remain: the kingdom of heaven is a learning ground for the servants there. And too, God is wholly separate from sin. Selah

    But a child learning to walk is not committing sin in one sense, however they are not achieving perfection. They are committing a sin if sin is defined as falling short of the glory of God. But, they are in the process of achieving perfection. And God acknowledges this and gives us this training ground, so to speak. Can you see the difference?

    I would be harsh on the sin, absolutely! But I would always wish to push people forward, to make sure that that sin is momentary and an act in their foolishness, not something that they deliberately and certainly act upon. Now that is a different sin, though it too falls short. But as far as motives are concerned, this latter sin separates a person from merely learning, into one who shown himself to be a tare.

  396. Shelley Sep 7th 2012

    Nothing new under the sun…. history repeats itself.
    We can look back over history and see how societies fell when they embraced homosexuality, and child sacrifice.
    Many scholars agree that homosexuality is a clear sign that a society is in danger, and if it’s not corrected (repented of) then judgment is soon to follow. With all the abortions going on in the USA and Canada and many other nations around the world we can’t expect God to sit idly by as the blood of innocent babies are being shed each and every day as a sacrifice to self.

    Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

    Isa 3:8 For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory.
    Isa 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

    2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
    2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
    2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

    Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    These things are recorded in the Word of God to give us warning, they are for an example to us, yet God is merciful and was willing to hold back judgment if he could find just 10 righteous men in Sodom, yet he could not but rescued Lot’s family alone. If we would come to true repentance then I know that God would relent of judgment. amen

    Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
    Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
    Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
    Deu 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

    2Ki 17:17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

    Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

    Things are not so different today…. Lord have mercy on us.

  397. JeffM Sep 7th 2012

    Green, sorry but I cut off the part that tells where the verses are from when I cut and pasted, your scripture is Matthew 13:24-30 and mine is Matthew 13 : 34-43, later in the day Jesus explained the scripture but only to His disciples, that is what I quoted. The parable is about the time we are in and also about the end of this age, judgement day. Jesus says that the field is the world, not the church.He said the workers are the angels not the church.

    His Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom, at the end of this age all things will be brought into His Kingdom. There will not be what we know as the world anymore, Christ will come back and claim all things for Himself. So at that point in time the tares are all brought into His kingdom but only to be judged for what they have done.

    The reason what you call His Church seems to fit your version of this parable is because it is not Christ’s Church, it is the world.

    Luke 17:20-21

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    20 The P’rushim asked Yeshua when the Kingdom of God would come. “The Kingdom of God,” he answered, “does not come with visible signs; 21 nor will people be able to say, ‘Look! Here it is!’ or, ‘Over there!’ Because, you see, the Kingdom of God is among you.”

  398. Green Sep 7th 2012

    So, what do you think He means when He says, “The kingdom of heaven is like…” Do you think this is also part of the parable? Traditionally, when one starts out a comparison, the comparison gives it context, which is then to assume that the thing that gives the parable context is necessarily outside of the parable itself.

    So then the real quandry is what is our idea of the kingdom of heaven? Does God tolerate sin? No! But can sin be in the kingdom of heaven? Very possibly. For Satan went to the throne of God himself when he was challenging God over Job. Can sin be allowed to exist in heaven forever? I do not think so. But can sin be allowed for a purpose and for a time in heaven? Yes, I think so.

    And the field is the world. What of it? Does that mean that it is of the world, so we can read in to it that it is not in the church? Because I’m quite certain that I have seen the very things that Jesus states in the church as well.

    There are two churches here, by what we are saying. There is the perfect Church, and there is the church as it is now, imperfect and in the world. As Jesus prayed in John, that we be not taken out of the world, but that we be not OF the world.

    Perhaps, all that Jesus meant was that the training ground, the place where all this was going to happen would be in our physical lives. Gods gives rain to the wicked and the righteous alike; that’s what living on this earth is about. So why can’t this apply to the church? If this does not, then what does that talks to purging the church of wickedness? The church of God does have wickedness in it right now. That’s a fact. The church is not perfected and utterly holy now, though this is the goal and this is what is to come.

    Do you see the two veins in which we are talking? Do you reprimand a child for coming into perfection? Or do you love them and guide them and wait for that day when they will be perfect because of your training of them?

  399. JeffM Sep 7th 2012

    Green , I think we both are using the same scale to measure things. I just brushed away everything that The Lord told me is not Christ’s and now my reading is way smaller than yours.

    Amos 3:3

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    3 Do two people travel together
    without having so agreed?

  400. Kevin Sep 7th 2012

    Amen to your last comment watchful.

    Sadly this happens all to often in a public forum like this, as some are just looking for a platform to beat there drum on.

    If the different parts of the body of Christ were more willing to learn from each others different functions, so much more could be achieved to glorify our Lord Jesus Christ.

  401. Foolhardy Fred Sep 7th 2012

    God requires separation from idolatry and false religion in all its forms in order to remain faithful to HIM and HIS WORD.

    In these days of wholesale apostasy with so many people doing “what seems right” in their own eyes this often involves isolation.

    How many are prepared to STAND ALONE FOR CHRIST should that prove to be necessary?

  402. Kevin Sep 7th 2012

    In answer to your question Foolhardy Fred ;

    The same number that wont take the mark of the beast.

  403. Green Sep 7th 2012


    You quote from the Jewish Bible, which I have no objection to. I have noticed you refering to Jewish thought in other posts of yours. Again, I have no problem with this. The Jews are our heritage.

    But, I would ask you to ponder something: you seem quite against the traditions of the Catholic church. But the Jewish practice of their belief has an equal (if not more) emphasis on tradition and rituals. Yet, you have found good with them, you have learned the truth of distilling the good (as God commanded in Jeremiah). This is simply all that I was attempting to bring to thought when I brought up the Catholics.

    My reading may be more broad than yours, at you put it, but I do not feel that the context of a matter is irrelevant. It becomes irrelevant as soon as one understands the context, you are right. But, for example, if one consumed flour for nutrition, would you feel that you have eaten bread? Yet we are told to remember Christ whenever we break bread, not just when we have eaten flour.

    Context is not everything, agreed, but it is too important to be brushed completely aside.

    “Does a lion roar in the forest when he has no prey? Does a young lion growl from his den unless he has captured something? Does a bird fall into a trap on the ground when there is no bait in it? Does a trap spring up from the earth when it captures nothing at all? If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it? Surely the Lord GOD does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets. A lion has roared! Who will not fear? The Lord GOD has spoken! Who can but prophesy?”

    Context matters.

    The reason why I have included context as a vital aspect of my Christian walk is that I find, especially with the homosexual issue, which is what we are mainly addressing, that the issue cannot be properly dealt with without looking at context. If one looks at the Bible black and white, then the Bible contradicts itself. The letter of the Law kills but the Spirit of the Law brings life. What is Spirit of the Law? A deep, innate understanding or knowing. How does one know? One way is to look for context.

    The issue of homosexuality is vast, is worthy of prayer and discussion. The Christians need to come together strongly on this issue. Having a forum that helps us to see what we are up against, to see what other Christians have been up against before our time (the Catholics during Hitler’s reign, for example, as I mentioned above), I think helps very much! Getting an overview of where we are headed and what we are to do, is vitally important. Otherwise we lose our way. And more sadly, we lose each other.

    Homosexuality is one of those issues, where the individual needs a hug and a spanking at the same time. How does one do that?! But I believe that this is what we have been discussing on this blog.

    (It recently came to my attention that in California, they are attempting to pass a law that bans anyone from trying to counsel ex gays and ex lesbians. They consider it to be discrimination. Can you imagine what would happen?! Pastors would eventually be included. This is indeed a battle that we are in the very midst of!)

  404. Averyl Sep 7th 2012

    Are we made righteous by our own will-power or by the blood of the Lamb?

    Andrew J – AMEN!

    Romans 7:15-25
    “For that which I do I allow not:for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that I do.
    If then I do that which I would not, I consent to the law that it is good.
    Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
    For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing: for to will is present iwith me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
    I find then, a law, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

    O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.”

    Continue reading chapter 8.

    So Paul’s thorn in the flesh involved sin, not a physical disability like eyesight. What he is describing is addiction. No matter how remorseful one is & how hard one tries, it cannot be beaten.

    I think our attitude toward sin of ourselves & others is a key issue.
    Do we have compassion? or beat up ourselves or others?

  405. Andrew Sep 7th 2012

    We know from the New Testament that it is Holiness of HEART and INWARD purifying that are the essence of true Christianity.

    But of course this immediately leads to physical and outward expression in our lifestyle and behaviour, etc.

    That is why Paul could reel off that list of “serious” sins – declaring very directly that anyone doing such things would not enter the Kingdom of God.

    The inward leads directly to the outward. You cannot divorce the two.

    And by the way, it is not truly “loving” or truly “compassionate” to say nothing and leave people in their sins.

    Blessings to all.

    -Andrew Strom.