-extracts by J. Lee Grady.

People didn’t vote in ancient Israel, nor did they put “KICK THE ROMANS OUT!” bumper stickers on their chariots. But there was plenty of political anger seething in Palestine, even without Fox News, CNN and MSNBC around to stir the pot.

Jews especially abhorred tax-collectors, since (1) tax-collectors
were usually thieves, and (2) they worked for the hated Roman
Empire. Yet when a chief tax-collector named Zacchaeus showed
up to hear Jesus preach in Jericho, Jesus did an unlikely thing.
He called Zacchaeus down from his perch in a sycamore tree
and proposed a meeting at his house…

This was Jesus´ style. He looked beyond race, class, social labels
and sectarian divisions. He was as comfortable talking to prostitutes,
drunkards and condemned criminals as He was to synagogue
officials, high priests and Roman centurions. He looked into men´s
hearts with a piercing laser beam, not so He could judge their sins
but so He could shine the light of His mercy.

And today Jesus calls His followers to love everybody* that way.
*NOTE: “Everybody” includes Democrats, Republicans, bleeding-
heart liberals, Tea Party conservatives, Jesse Jackson, Rush
Limbaugh, left-leaning journalists, right-leaning journalists,
President Obama, Mitt Romney, Joe Biden, Paul Ryan – and,
yes, Clint Eastwood!

I´m saying this now (and preaching to myself) because too many
of us are losing our religion in the current presidential campaign –
which promises to grow more divisive before Election Day. It´s not
just political commentators who are screaming at each other like
banshees on Sunday-morning talk shows; Christians are unfriending
each other on Facebook because campaign rhetoric has grown so
hateful. We can´t even eat a chicken sandwich without triggering
a war of words.

I propose we make some attitude adjustments so we can reflect
Christ both during the campaign season and after Nov. 6 –
regardless of whether Obama or Romney wins.

1. Love people regardless of their political views…
How can I be a vessel of Christ´s love if my heart is full of hate?

2. Quit making politicians into gods. At the root of today´s angry
rhetoric is the mistaken idea that politics can solve our moral
problems. Christians in the United States, especially since the
early 1980s, have embraced an unhealthy infatuation with
presidents and political power. We clamor for a King Saul to
save us when God wants us to trust Him alone.

News flash! Ronald Reagan didn´t save us. Neither did Bush
No. 1, Clinton or Bush No. 2. Neither Obama nor Romney will
deliver us. And let´s not forget that the greatest spiritual revival in
this country in the past 100 years occurred during the presidential
terms of Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon – one Democrat and
one Republican!…

3. Frame your words with kindness. In our culture it has become
in vogue to be hot-headed. Candidates and commentators throw
vitriolic barbs like grenades, and when the discussion is moved
online, everyone starts dropping F-bombs to prove their point.
There is no such thing today as civil debate. In modern American
politics, we thrust, jab, kick, punch, skewer and impale each other
with our words. And this is equally true of Democrats and Republicans.

There is a higher way for people of faith. The apostle Paul called
us to season our conversation with grace (see Col. 4:6) and to put
on a heart of compassion, kindness and gentleness (see Col. 3:12).
But we can´t express kind words if our hearts are full of judgment,
racial bias, hatred of certain people or organizations, or anger
toward those we disagree with. If you hold judgments in your heart,
they will become like buried mines in a battlefield. When someone
walks near them and pushes your button, you will explode.

We must speak the truth, but we must say it in love. It would be
better for us to keep our mouths shut if we can´t say what Jesus
is saying with His tone of voice.


Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on September 21st, 2012 at 5:45 pm.


224 Replies

  1. charlie coffey Sep 21st 2012

    Thank you for this conversation. I had come to much the same conclusion within the past couple weeks on my own, with guidance from the Holy Spirit, but your article confirmed it. There is no need to demonize our opponents and we should be careful of our words. This was brought to my attention last week when one of my best friends, an 81 year old pastor, suggested I might be a racist simply because I wouldn’t vote for Obama. That was a punch in the stomach and made me realize I had been doing much the same by thinking of my opponents as evil men. We are to love God and one another even if we don’t get our own way in the election. And after it is over.

  2. Carolyn Park Sep 21st 2012

    If anyone suggests that you might be a racist simply because you won’t vote for Obama, then they may not be your friend. Could it be that many are afraid of being called racists and therefore, voted for someone that they otherwise would not have voted for had they been in a different skin?

  3. Next time, simply turn the conversation back to issues instead of the candidate.
    Jesus had/has a way of getting us to look inward to address what is in our hearts, versus attacking the man. Your friend, a pastor, may need a reminder to look into his own heart to see why he is supporting someone who promotes things the Bible clearly says is wrong.

  4. Phillip H. Sep 21st 2012

    I am a little confused about all of this talk about a worldly kingdom when Jesus Himself said that His kingdom was not of this world.

    It breaks my heart to see professing Christians (who claim to follow Christ) so involved with this world. Doesn’t the Bible tell us to seek those things above, not on things on the earth.

    We are to follow Christ and Him alone. True followers of Christ know their home is not here so therefore we let the dead bury their own.

    FOLLOW CHRIST. As Paul said for me to live is CHRIST not a political candidate or any country, but CHRIST.

    If you’re a true Christian, forget this politics and focus on the real Kingdom.

    In Christ,
    Phillip Hatchett

  5. As long as you realize that “sounding” lovingly is not the same as Jesus spoke. Jesus was also pretty stern, forceful and he also got angry. Christ did not preach fluffy words filled with rainbow kisses, so please, stop it. Being loving is not the same as quietly being accepting of others sins and lifestyles, which is how a lot of people define love. “Don’t talk to me about the sin in my life, because that is not being loving. Christ didn’t judge or condemn.” But actually, he did. Love someone enough to call them out on their sin, of course, in the love of Christ. Calling yourselves christian is not the same as being Christian. If I unfriend you on facebook because of your politics (of which I am not involved) maybe it’s because your “politics” do not line up with your profession of faith. Sometimes, maybe we just like things that sound good, rather than what is actually biblically sound.

  6. Nixon and LBJ were not presidents during the End of the Age and we Americans were not dealing with the forerunner of the anti-Christ.
    Americans in the 1960s and 1970s were not a voting populace that thought infanticide was acceptable.
    Abortion on demand was unknown while LBJ was president and when the SCOTUS (1973) deemed it legal under Nixon, it was for the first three months
    of the pregnancy and only if the mother’s life was endangered.
    How quickly sin overtook us.
    We now have LEGAL Partial Birth Abortion (up to and through the ninth month of pregnancy….determined by the whim of the mother)
    and something particularly heinous, Born Alive Abortion, which occurs when a child miraculously survives an attempt on its life by a team of doctors but rather than be allowed to live, is placed in a closet at the clinic or hospital and to dehydrate or starve to death.
    There was a bill presented in 2003 in the Illinois state senate to prohibit the practice of allowing the Born Alive infant to be left to die.
    The bill passed but only over the sole vote of one senator who voted against that bill : Barack Obama.
    Please read THE HAND OF GOD– autobiography of Bernard Nathanson, MD……..
    An abortionist who presided over the death of over 60,000 children; performed about 5000 abortions himself and was a founding member of NARAL.
    A staunch supporter of abortion rights until medical technology revealed to him exactly what it is that is inside a woman’s womb that he had been so methodically and cooly “evacuating”.
    Any End Times believer should be able to see right through Barack Obama as The Man of the Hour that he is.

  7. Mark Andrew Sep 21st 2012

    Once in office, American presidents – and UK prime ministers – tend to follow a very similar agenda that is largely unrelated to their political labels and to their pre-election statements of intent. Surely, this is something to get heated about rather than party politics, which tends to be a mere diversion and side-show. Another salient fact is that the mainstream news media chose to treat Ron Paul simply as if no such person ever existed. In my opinion, this is rather a reasonable cause for anger. In other words, people who are getting heated over the choice between Obama vs Romney are being manipulated by the real and unseen power-brokers. The questions then arising are why has God allowed this? and what is our appropriate response?

  8. Foolhardy Fred Sep 21st 2012

    Very well written article. What nonsense it is to suggest that either side of politics is more godly than the other.
    What an absolute disgrace it is for “christians” to align themselves in any sort of corporate manner with either side of politics.
    Democracy works best when people vote in their own best interests. The Power of God is most obvious when the Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached and taught in an uncompromising and wholly committed way.
    Gospel preaching is the way to change lives not political activism.
    We cannot legislate righteousness and Jesus Christ certainly never tried to or suggested that was the way. In fact, HE accepted crucifixion rather than participate in the political games of his day particularly religious politics.
    Wholesale apostasy and immorality is permitted or at least winked at within the church which should be setting the example. We now have pastors apologising to homosexuals, for example, for preaching against their lifestyle and refusing to stand on the Word of God at any opportunity let alone every opportunity.
    Somehow, however, politicians are expected to be paragons of virtue providing the spiritual answers which pastors and church leaders have long ago ceased trying to provide due to such new “directions” as emerging and seeker sensitive diversions and controversies and other doctrinal perversions such as Dominionism and associated Latter Rain heresies and perversions.

    Preach, teach and model the Word of God and permit democracy to take care of itself.

  9. Marc Wildman Sep 21st 2012

    I agree with the core of this article but I also earnestly question whether or not believers should even take active part in this forthcoming election. If the truth be known, Obama is not a viable choice for obvious reasons as he supports abortion, is anti-Israel, supports gay marriage, is also a socialist, Marxist, and has plans to continue to destroy this country.

    On the other hand, Mitt Romney is part of a cult called Mormonism and his running mate avidly supports Ayn Rand’s atheistic philosophy as defined in her famous book called Atlas Shurgged. Her belief system stands against Christianity and against the poor classes.

    I think it’s high time we separate ourselves not from ministering or loving our enemies but from voting. Two wrongs doen’t make a right, and I keep hearing believers say I will vote for the lessor of two evils? If two candidates were both running for the office of Anti-Christ would you, then choose to vote for the lessor of two evil men? Or not vote at all? I think this election puts us at a crossroad and if folks choose to opt ou, so be it. Is it our responsibility to be a witness for the gospel or support calling good evil or evil good?

  10. Foolhardy Fred Sep 21st 2012

    Forget about Barak Obama not being Christian, the Pope himself, among a host of false teachings, has kissed the Koran, referred to Allah as another name for God and Islam as another way to God and yet a host of other significant church leaders including Brian Houston of Hillsong Australia and Billy Graham are prepared to honour the Pope as “a man of God who has done much to further the cause of the Gospel.”

    Billy Graham “agrees with the Pope on most things.”

    I have had a former leader of the AoG in Australia inform me that he would publicly honour the Dalai Lama or any other religious leader as well if there was something to be gained from it. Although demonstrating the craftiness of a classic politician of the modern era he is certainly not a man whose doctrine I would stake my eternal destiny on.

    I am convinced that it is impossible to be wholeheartedly committed to biblical Christianity and gain enough “popular” votes to win office in our pagan world with the so-called Christian church predominantly Apostate.

    Jesus Christ Himself refused to compromise and accepted death on the Cross rather than the support offered by the prevailing political system of his day in exchange for mere “worship” of the “anointed” leader representing the latest religious fad and insisting that he not be questioned. Jesus refused to compromise with the prominent pagan religions of his day as so many “christian” leaders are prepared to do today.

    In a democratic society Government has to provide for ALL the people within its constituency NOT just those they happen to agree with.

    For this reason I strongly believe that the role of the church is simply to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and teach people how to live in accordance with HIS Word whilst the role of the government is to govern the country in terms of national Defence and the provision of basic national requirements such as social welfare, roads, hospitals, schools and other forms of infrastructure as required.

    Neither institution is fulfilling their God given roles satisfactorily.

    As a bible believing Christian I look forward to the coming Judgement of God to see God Himself Honour His own Word.

  11. Most christians in America would vote for the anti-christ if he had the right political platform. I don’t see Jesus or the apostles in the bible trying to use politics to build His Kingdom.

  12. watchful Sep 21st 2012

    The love of most growing cold because of the increase of wickedness…how flesh does rise up when our way of life is threatened! It is wickedness that tests our love. Both selfishness and self-righteousness are things we need to die to, all the more in these days, help us Jesus! So important to keep our eyes looking up and to guard our hearts.

  13. I like this article very much. I’ve followed the ‘new atheist’ debate quite closely and cringe when I see the comments of some Christians. In fact I have found myself cringing at my own comments often enough. We think that in certain contexts, being harsh in our words is OK. The fruit of the Spirit: gentleness, meakness, goodness … are for all seasons.My wife’s headmistress had a good test for chice of words before speaking to (or about) others: “Is it true, is it kind, is it necessary”. There would maybe be less comments if we used those three tests.

  14. Very well written article!!!

  15. DeWayne Sep 21st 2012

    I can well understand Andrews call that we not (in effect and often in ignorance) demonize others, this like slandering with raca, this also the way of man in the world. However I do recall how a fool was described, not as a genius, but as a fool.

    There is a maturity that needs be used in not generalizing scripture out of context. Example, both John the Baptist and Christ were called ‘rabbi’ by their followers, and yet Christ said ‘you are not to be called rabbi’. Insight into this may well be that at this period rabbi was a form of respect not a Title of Office, at that time there was no ordination (s’mikha) to become a religious rabbi… yet today aware what this term means calling Christ ‘rabbi’… even though He (is) the only one qualified as ‘Master or My Master’ (meaning of rabbi).

    Second as some have described, love that pours burning coals on anothers head needs mature understanding. I do not know many loving (hoping) for salvation of Satan, understanding this teaching needs also understand how we show or have “proper respect”, what is proper respect concerning Christ and Satan?

    Today it is common knowledge and acceptance by the secular, that out present (limited) political-world is called the ‘lesser of two evils’, and if followed for decades, gives strong understanding that within overall goals and purpose there is little discernable difference. Our being light and salt means exposing the fruitless deeds of darkness in light while preserving what is worthy at the same time… this was not meant to be only within the church.

    In this I believe the church needs wake up from considerable false teaching and prophecy, also concentrate on where Christ saw problem, given strong indication (also for ourselves) when He said, Luke 9:22 “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be (rejected by) the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.” I’ve added the parentheses, but note these people mentioned were not the common people, but the leaders, or perhaps more accurate, misleaders. Christ did warn that they first hated Him.

  16. What’s going on in the world today (in Egypt, Afghanistan, etc.) along with all this rederick of the two parties – is this not a sign of the times that Jesus told us to look for?

    We are headed for turbulent times ahead no matter who gets in as president, so fasten your seatbelts.

    It is important that people vote. By doing nothing, what is being accomplished? Wouldn’t it be better to vote for the lesser of two evils and let God do the rest? Don’t you think that God is allowing this to happen because we have chosen man over Him to rule us? This is exactly what He says He will do. Did God not say he would blind those who have rejected Him (for the kings of the world)? We are getting exactly what we deserve. Are we not the fools of Proverbs?

    The love that most Christians talk about is not the kind of love Jesus talks about in the Word. To love your neighbor or love anyone means to love anyone enough to die for them that they might live – like Jesus did for us. How can you love someone you don’t know – that doens’t make sense. It means to be willing to die to self that others might live.

  17. DeWayne Sep 21st 2012

    Charlie Coffee

    Not voting for Obama might be racist… that is totally inane, sorry but I will not call something inane as genius. Those that haven’t the discernment (the world calls it intellect) of true wisdom and knowledge concerning this situation, of many promises by candidate Obama, that as President he not only ignored but did essentilly the literal opposite… should not be advising anyone concerning important matters.

    Thank God you have discernment about our secular (in levels of importance and control) government.

  18. goodwordtoday Sep 21st 2012

    Let’s not forget that Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and white-washed tombs – not exactly in a gentle manner. And he overturned tables and whipped the money changers and sellers of animals in the court of the Tabernacle. He wasn’t all ‘Mr. Nice Guy,’ Lee.

    However, I agree that we can’t solve anything when we are at each others’ throats. Unfortunately, the problem these days compared to the past is that at the center of the political divide there is more than just politics – it’s morals and a fundamental worldview shift. It’s not just about power and money – it’s about lives of babies, freedom of religion, tyranny – and the growth of the divide is because those fundamental worldview differences cannot be bridged. The divide just gets wider and wider.

    In the past, politicians have not been as radically different from each other in their thinking as they are today. There are very few moderates these days – it’s mostly extreme liberals vs. staunch conservatives. NEVER the twain shall meet. And the issues that cause the differences can destroy relationships.

    Back in the day, people were a lot more blaze about their candidates. It used to be a common saying that one voted for the lesser of two evils.

    What we need to be doing as the church is going about the Father’s business – preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, doing good, praying for the glory of God to fall on this nation and its leaders, and helping people. Vote for righteous and wise leaders and pray for the ones who get in to become righteous and wise leaders.

    And what Lee implied about presidents and leaders not really having an impact is completely wrong. Presidents and leaders can have a huge impact for good if they are instruments in God’s hands. And they can have a huge impact for evil if they are instruments in the devil’s hands.

  19. DeWayne Sep 21st 2012


    Sorry Andrew, what is the opposite of demonizing evil?

    In past elections, also as should be well known today, there are men effectively shunted out of possibility to be elected, that in word and deed would change the direction of this nation, being adamantly against the evil that is SOP in America today.

    Would it not instead be better to vote or write in the names of such people, and as the worldly complain, that indeed it would be a wasted or ‘lost vote’, than be a part of the evil we already know is prophesied… yes, this nation very likely is soon to fall.

  20. Are we going to approach politics our own way or are we going to do things The Lord’s way,

    2 Timothy 2:3-4

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    3 Accept your share in suffering disgrace as a good soldier of the Messiah Yeshua. 4 No soldier on duty gets involved with civilian affairs, since he has to please his commanding officer.

  21. DeWayne Sep 21st 2012


    In the wisdom and knowledge of the world, that the secular call ‘mind control’, there is in example the law enforcement psychobabble called “good cop, bad cop”, a game played on the minds of the unaware.

    I would put to you that this (supposed) vast difference between our two ruling political parties, upon closer examination, there is found as much difference as Satan allows… certainly effective ‘division’.

    Where this division is effective and applied is a condition needing discernment. Our Lord advises, that in the His word is wisdom and knowledge to discern good from evil… we need look closely at the “lesser of two evils”, there (is) in-act and in-deed little difference… but certainly there is effective division.

  22. DeWayne Sep 21st 2012

    No soldier (Christian) gets involved (becomes part) with civilian (worldly) affairs… praise God.

    NOW let us join the army (spiritual) of God…. and what???
    Fight evil with the weapons we are given…. woooooow.

  23. DeWayne Sep 21st 2012

    Christians that say, “we need agree to disagree”, are already lost concerning need to become one in maturity and unity.

    There was something about one, then two, then the entire church… but nothing about “agreeing to disagree.”

  24. michelle Sep 21st 2012

    The heart of the king is in the hand of God
    Lord forgive us…

  25. DeWayne Sep 21st 2012


    Although I agree wholeheartedly with you admonisment to not demonize in emotional distress and anger, however take issue with your statement “But we can´t express kind words if our hearts are full of judgment.”

    You of course are expressing condition of carnal desire being expressed, yet be careful to also teach of the new spiritual man in the will and purpose of our Lord, 1 Cor 2:15 “The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment…”

    The secular world are prominent in warning (never) to judge, ‘lest you be judged’, a problem of accepted perhaps by the immature, realizing also those not having Gods word neither understand Gods word.

  26. David Sturtz Sep 21st 2012

    I could hardly agree with you more. We all engage in politics in the broadest sense of the word. When I discuss with Carolyn, my wife, what we will be doing today, that is a political act. I am interacting with her to get a desired result. In that process I should not forget to treat her with kindness and respect (although I admit I don’t always do).
    I believe there are some called by God to bring the light of Christ in the larger political realm. Their work in is no less important in God’s kingdom than a preacher’s or missionary’s and is in some ways more difficult. God’s kingdom does not move forward by using Satan’s tools; hate, anger, pride, resentment and jealously. It does more forward by love, compassion and forgiveness.
    -David Sturtz

  27. Why would Jesus look beyond politics when the government is going to be on His shoulder?

    America was supposed to be ruled under Him as per the Word and both constitutions (US and Canada) but now, today we live in a society of “entitlement” where people think the government should do everything for them. That isn’t what God had in mind for us. He is our provider, not man nor man’s government which is actually Satan’s government and part of the 666 (religious (6), economic (6) and political (6) systems of Satan that are run by man. Rev. 13:18 – Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast (Satan), for it is the number of a man: His number is 666. We are still in the Babylonian system that Daniel was in but he would not bow down to a king of the world (like Obama did- what a disgrace). He stood only for the truth and ate only the food of truth (the Word of God) and not the kings food (religion – man-made doctrine).

    So I guess what we really have to decide is who’s side are we on? Elijah tells us it is time to stop fence sitting. We are either on God’s side or Satan’s.

  28. Jesus rejected ruling the governments of this world because He knew that it would be the same as serving Satan.The same is true for us, Christ’s Kingdom and His rule are not compatible with the world’s governments. The kingdom’s of this world will all perish because they are all evil, but Christ’s kingdom is forever. Do not fall into the trap , Jesus chose to serve only God.

    Luke 4:5-8

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    5 The Adversary took him up, showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world, 6 and said to him, “I will give you all this power and glory. It has been handed over to me, and I can give it to whomever I choose. 7 So if you will worship me, it will all be yours.” 8 Yeshua answered him, “The Tanakh says, ‘Worship Adonai your God and serve him only.’”[a]

  29. DeWayne Sep 22nd 2012

    Perhaps having come from a poor (ie… in wealth only) family, apparently made me a fortunate individual. By far in 76-years I did not see people when traveling 5-States (before retirement), that were trying to live off others. Generally they were way to busy working to earn enough that barring cotastrophe would keep them above (not drown in troubled financial) waters.

    What I did experience instead, was a system established by a fortunate few, a system in which were established laws and agencies, and of progeny or a favored (pay off) few working this system, keeping the number of unfortunate in-need in welfare bondage, a system benefiting predominantly those running the system.

    I came to realize that few could take extra-ordinary (super human) steps to free themselves from this system, the few that were able often later misused by system and real crooks (reminds me of story concerning a bus load of lawyers), these crooks putting them right back into the welfare-pit.

    I come from a period that saw community (farms) working together, each helping the other with crops so that all stayed as much as possible above water. I know an entity today whose wealth is estimated at $500-trillion dollars, even if I took off shoe and stocking, I probably could not count that high… I’m for the small guy (if not noticed), Christ calls them appropiately “sheep.”

  30. followerofjesus Sep 22nd 2012

    Please join in Prayer for Peace between All Nations & Religions.

  31. Tiffany Sep 22nd 2012

    A BIG AMEN to this article, I agree completely. Especially where he wrote: “There is a higher way for people of faith. The apostle Paul called us to season our conversation with grace (see Col. 4:6) and to put on a heart of compassion, kindness and gentleness (see Col. 3:12).
    But we can´t express kind words if our hearts are full of judgment, racial bias, hatred of certain people or organizations, or anger toward those we disagree with. If you hold judgments in your heart, they will become like buried mines in a battlefield. When someone walks near them and pushes your button, you will explode.

    We must speak the truth, but we must say it in love. It would be better for us to keep our mouths shut if we can´t say what Jesus is saying with His tone of voice.”

    I say AMEN & AMEN!! The very sad thing I’ve seen lately from many “Professing” to be followers of Jesus Christ our Lord is so many are filled with such bitterness and hatred it literally breaks my heart and is an embarrassment to the “true” church. Any light that may have been within those who have so much anger and hatred has been covered by so much darkness and sadly this is what the world sees. I could care less about some stupid idiotic political debate because I refuse to get involved in politics and the things of this world but what I DO care about is a “soul” an individual who has yet to know Jesus as their Lord and Savior and what i DO care about is how one who profess Jesus represents HIM and represents HIS BODY (The Church). When He is portrayed in an ugly hateful manner this is when I become concern because I think of the many souls that may have come to accept his gift of Salvation but then saw how ugly the behavior of those who profess to love and know Him and so chose NOT to want to partake of “Christianity”. I can assure you that we the church will be held accountable for every soul that we have pushed away because of our outward conduct so we had better be careful how we present ourselves!! I love the Lord and I love that which HE has created just as HE loves everyone and for those that I may not “agree” with, those with hearts that are filled with hatred, racism, bitterness, and etc., even those who hate me rather than become bitter towards them and hate them back I do what the WORD OF GOD has commanded of me to do…PRAY FOR THEM!!! Pray and ask the Lord to send laborers to them to witness the truth to them, perhaps I’m not the one to plant the seed but there may be someone else they’d listen to…so I PRAY!! I look beyond the flesh and see the spirit but I would NOT be able to do this if I myself were not walking by THE SPIRIT! I leave the flesh out!!!

    Thank you Andrew, I agree completely with this article 100 percent!! God bless you and your family!!

  32. Lee Grady is an apostate to Babelon. I do not believe a word that comes out of his mouth. Why? Because he is a compromising liar and a whitewashed tomb. This article has a false mixture with the false leaven of the Pharisees. Apostate Grady forgot John the Baptist’s conduct and might I say Jesus told us that John was the greatest prophet ever. Apostate Grady also forgot how Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and how he scourged the money changers out of the temple. Apostate Grady forgot how Paul dealt with diviners and sorcerers. Apostate Grady forgot Paul’s words in Galatians chapter 1, “If a man or angel preach any other gospel, let him be accursed.”

  33. DeWayne Sep 22nd 2012

    The problem with not being or becoming informed in area’s unfortunately such as politic’s and politician’s, nor wishing even to discuss them, very likely will carry over into prayer. Christ told of sin that does not lead to death, and also sin that leads to death, saying about this later, I’m not saying (he) should pray about that.

    In years past as US-Corp’s used the US-Gov to enjoy fruitless deeds in 3rd world nations, where we eventually imported 80% and more of all we consumed, about this it was not unusual to hear church leaders call this ‘Gods Blessings’, but was it?

    An old poem says “To each his sufferings: all are men, Condemned alike to groan; The tender for another’s pain, The unfeeling for his own. Yet ah! why should they know their fate? Since sorrow never comes too late, And happiness too swiftly flies. Thought would destroy their paradise. No more; where ignorance is bliss, ‘Tis folly to be wise.”

    Here it would seem to leave unanswered if ignorance is bliss, not so in Gods word.

  34. DeWayne Sep 22nd 2012

    About politic’s and politicians, look, now we can see the sign’s of the times.

  35. Rob ZionFreak, if Lee Grady was silenced you would have to find someone else to vent your hatred upon. From The Word to you,

    Philippians 2:3

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    3 Do nothing from factional motives [through contentiousness, strife, selfishness, or for unworthy ends] or prompted by conceit and empty arrogance. Instead, in the true spirit of humility (lowliness of mind) let each regard the others as better than and superior to himself [thinking more highly of one another than you do of yourselves].

  36. Ibelieve Sep 22nd 2012

    Regardless of who runs the country, Jesus is still Lord and rules in the kingdom of men.

    Good Article

    In Him,

  37. Andrew Sep 22nd 2012

    One of the most important things Lee Grady noted was that-

    “Ronald Reagan didn´t save us. Neither did Bush
    No. 1, Clinton or Bush No. 2. Neither Obama nor Romney will
    deliver us.”

    In other words, it is only JESUS that can truly change the hearts of the nation and turn everything around. We need a Revival!!


  38. Tiffany Sep 22nd 2012

    AMEN Andrew!!! AMEN & AMEN!! I agree with your comment here!

  39. Andrew Sep 22nd 2012

    However, on the other side of things, it is very true that the Government is more and more impinging on “moral & spiritual” issues – taking sides and even looking to “enforce” spiritual viewpoints that are anti-Christian.

    I certainly agree with speaking out when this is the case – especially when the young are being “brainwashed” with these views. We just have to do so with love.

    Bless you!


  40. DeWayne Sep 22nd 2012

    Amen amd amen Andrew…

  41. DeWayne Sep 22nd 2012

    my eyes… change the spelling to read (and)

  42. DeWayne Sep 22nd 2012

    Lee Grady was benefactor for women in church leadership. I once thought I had found a biblical error, when it implied men and women in eternity to come were both going to be priest’s.

    Sounds like Paul talking about Prisilla and Aquilla, Prisilla and Aquilla, Prisilla and Aquilla, Prisilla and Aquilla, and oh yeah, Aquilla and Priscilla.

  43. What’s love Andrew? The Bible say true Biblical love hates iniquity and rejoices only in the truth. Even Jesus hated iniquity and loved righteousness therefore he was anointed with the oil of joy above his fellows. You disappoint me Andrew. You are not at all what I thought.

    And to the scoffer above. One day his voice will be silenced and the noise of Babel’s wicked charismania viols of lucifer…

    Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

    21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

    23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

    24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

    Amen! All glory to God!

  44. TheDude Sep 22nd 2012

    This article seems to imply that even Democrats can be Christians! Shocking to say the least. The Bible is clear that only Republicans can be Christians (or is it Tea Party members – I get confused. I guess it depends on what translation you use.)

    Who will you choose? Barabbas or Jesus? Barabbus represents the man made method of solving your societal problems while Jesus represents God’s way. I truly believe that many so-called Christians today are looking for a modern day Barabbas to deliver them from their “persecution”.

    That didn’t turn out so well for the Pharisees did it? Let’s not make the same mistake they did.

  45. antichrist means IN PLACE of CHRIST not merely outwardly opposed to him. If you do not know this then you are deceived and have been sent strong delusion.

  46. Andrew Sep 22nd 2012

    Rob Zionfreak – LOVE is the fruit of a true Christian walk. Why do you speak with such bitterness and bile that this the opposite of love?

    God bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  47. What is with all this love everybody an kissie kissie with people thats not of God. Even Jesus said if you dont have a sword sell your cloths an get one. The Bible is full of war killing every man,woman an child that was not living right an going after other gods. Jesus says your eather for me or against me. We are in this world be not part of this world. Its time for preachers to take a stand against these homos an tv preachers on huging an kissing on everybody you meet. Jesus said be careful who lays hands on you.

  48. Andrew- you know not the God of the scriptures. Rather, you will side with apostates like Lee Grady because your heart is still in saving the kingdoms and movements of this world. Love hates ERROR. To love God is to HATE ERROR, WICKEDNESS, and FALSE TEACHING! The word for error is DELUSION! True love will not remain in agreement with the LIE! If you place yourself in agreement with false teachers then you place yourself in agreement with their false teaching.

    To put yourself in agreement is to make yourself a PARTAKER by not ENDURING SOUND DOCTRINE (teaching) and you will be severely and harshly judged, having received of here PLAGUES!!!

    2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not PARTAKERS of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

    21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

    22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be PARTAKER of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.


  49. Martin Sep 22nd 2012

    Oh dear! What a mess. Christians, children of the Living God, brothers and sisters of Jesus, occupying their precious time with politics. What are you doing there? And you use the name of Jesus to justify your actions and words?

    You take these political disputations to the highest human level, burning inside you.

    You worry unceasingly about a vote; a decision between a Muslim and a cultist. You’ll get the leader you deserve, you, who took the torch of the Gospel from Britain, because we failed first.

    Now look what you’ve done with this so precious message of salvation; you’ve given the world the Benny Hinns, Rick Joyners and Joyce Meyers, and so many more like them. A corrupt gospel, corruption wherever it goes.

    Look to the rock from which you were hewn!

    Fret not about voting, it’s no concern of yours. Your thoughts should be on something higher, something eternal, something Godly. Why is that not so?

    Permit me to remind you of something we Brits chose to ignore in the last century. Your first commission was to make disciples of all nations. Get them saved. It’s that simple.

    Get them saved, not Hinned, Meyered or Joynered, just saved in the Name of Jesus. That’s your first and last role in this wonderful, Christian life.

    So why aren’t you doing it, my American brothers and sisters? You are a nation of many nations aren’t you?

    Look across the Pond, to us, who’ve spent a hundred years in unbelief. You want this for your nation?

    Sink to your knees this night, pray in abject submission; receive the real spiritual power which is yours by inheritance.

    Then, and only then, you will see, the things of the world will grow slowly dim and your eyes will be cast upon Him!

    Then the Muslim and the Cultist will shrink to their real proportions. Zilch.

  50. Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    Blessings all.


  51. Ernest Long Sep 22nd 2012

    Romans 13, particularly:

    Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.

    Homosexuality, abortion, loss of freedom, promoting an evil religion – they wish we were dead – I don’t think you can count these things as anything but evil and are sponsored by the individual and party now running this government.

    I generally try to avoid political discussions, but I make sure everyone know that I am a Christian FIRST and conservative SECOND. When the dems know this they frequently make fun of me and absolutely refuse to hear the truth. We may not be OF THIS WORLD, but we are certainly IN IT! It is also our duty to speak up against the evil as I have mentioned above. Jesus and ALL His disciples spoke up against evil. If the world doesn’t hear the truth from us, who are they going to hear it from?

    We are on the verge of the “great falling away” if not already in it. Our main objective is to pray for and preach to as many as we can that at least some “might be saved”. So tell the homosexuals where they are going. Tell the abortionists they are murderers. Tell the dems what their party platform really is.

  52. The way of salvation is love.

    Romans 5:5-11

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    5 Such hope never disappoints or deludes or shames us, for God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit Who has been given to us.

    6 While we were yet in weakness [powerless to help ourselves], at the fitting time Christ died for (in behalf of) the ungodly.

    7 Now it is an extraordinary thing for one to give his life even for an upright man, though perhaps for a noble and lovable and generous benefactor someone might even dare to die.

    8 But God shows and clearly proves His [own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us.

    9 Therefore, since we are now justified ([a]acquitted, made righteous, and brought into right relationship with God) by Christ’s blood, how much more [certain is it that] we shall be saved by Him from the indignation and wrath of God.

    10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, it is much more [certain], now that we are reconciled, that we shall be saved (daily delivered from sin’s dominion) through His [[b]resurrection] life.

    11 Not only so, but we also rejoice and exultingly glory in God [in His love and perfection] through our Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom we have now received and enjoy [our] reconciliation.

  53. Rob Zion(Rob ZionFreak), there is no power from The Holy Spirit in anything you say because Jesus is not in you and you are not in Christ. Repent and believe in Jesus as Lord and He will forgive you.

  54. Whosoever is of God, hears God’s words. You therefore hear them not because you are not of God.

  55. Rob Zion…..dude, it is not healthy for your soul to think that what you have said is the same as what God (Jesus) says. It never works like that for anyone who follows Jesus. You quoted Jesus as He answered those who would not believe Him as a comparison to yourself and me not believing it. I am not your enemy but your hate is an enemy to Christ Jesus.

  56. Ibelieve Sep 22nd 2012

    Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
    2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

    God appoints the authorities that exist and there is no authority except it comes from God.

  57. DeWayne Sep 22nd 2012

    Well done chastizement, amen. You are correct as Andrew has surely pointed out, neither politics or politicians, nor even the President will bring salvation to anyone.

    My only concern among Christians is, without being aware of the world and it’s deeds around us, the signs of the times will also be difficult to understand. Even the scattered chosen apparently had a vow impossed by God, to be good citizen’s in whatever country accepted them.

    Also,Christ after spending years teaching His disciples with Gods wisdom and knowledge, before sending them out said wait… ‘I am sending you out like sheep among wolves, Therefore be as shrewd/wise as the snake/serpent and innocent as the dove’. I take this to mean keep up with the works of Satan and his servants. Perhaps in negative of same need, was to send out someone to check the advancing enemy-army, in case the 1,000 fighting men be no match (not prepared) for the 100,000 enemy.

  58. DeWayne Sep 22nd 2012

    The New Testament does well explaining the different between two kingdoms, one in the purpose doing the will of God, surely also doing good for the people, and another doing good for himself. John the Baptist knowing how to show ‘proper respect’, stood outside the palace describing the kings good works in detail. Some believe John was out of line, as a result getting himself killed, but as for the fruitless deeds of darkness in this matter… who knows?

  59. debylynne Sep 22nd 2012

    reading through all these posts makes me sad. i have but one stand to make here…..and that is the one which the LORD has laid on my heart.
    i do not care for the ‘sarcasm’ here.
    as i looked into the Word of God i realized something – many ‘leaders’ over God’s people were NOT followers of Him themselves – some were openly evil and others, although not what we would describe as ‘Christian’ were KINDLY disposed towards God’s people and ‘allowed’ them to worship and serve Him……i live here in the U.S. of A. and so this is not ‘hypothetical’ to me. this is real. we have had FOUR YEARS of having ungodliness forced down our throats – the ‘gospel’ is being MUZZLED in america – THAT is what is ‘at stake’ AS WELL, as whether or not this country will support. the present administration does NOT support israel – the ‘incumbent admin’ DOES.
    now, if i had my way – there would be no one ‘leading’ our country but the LORD JESUS CHRIST – and SOMEDAY that will be true – next to that, i would choose a SOLID BORN AGAIN BELIEVER – but, since i do NOT have that choice, i am going to vote for the one that i believe will be, at the least, a ‘kindly disposed’ ruler to the values of Christianity AND in support of israel.
    i’m sure there will me much to say against this – but, i am convicted of this stand.

  60. debylynne Sep 22nd 2012

    i apologize – somehow i left out part of the above sentence and it SHOULD read……

    “AS WELL, as to whether or not this country will support Israel – the present administration does NOT support israel – the ‘incumbent admin’ DOES.”

  61. Lee Grady, you just told on yourself.
    If you believe there is no civil debate today then what you have written is not even intended to be civil. To quote you, “There is no such thing today as civil debate.” You have shown your “Liberal” insincerity. The spirit of love is also a spirit of truth. Phil

  62. Truth is hate to those who hate truth because they did not RECEIVE the LOVE of the TRUTH.

  63. Amen Phil!

  64. Debylynne- you are so deceived. I hope and pray you wake up out of your slumber.

  65. debylynne Sep 22nd 2012

    dear zionfreak
    thank you for your concern. can you tell me ‘how’ i am deceived and do so in simple words since i am an ‘old lady’??

  66. Maybe it will help if I post the bible quotes from the article and we can see who is behaving this way and who is not. Those who are in Christ will do these things.Repent before Jesus if you need to and do what the word instructs us to do.

    Colossians 4:6

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    6 Let your speech at all times be gracious (pleasant and winsome), seasoned [as it were] with salt, [so that you may never be at a loss] to know how you ought to answer anyone [who puts a question to you].

    Colossians 3:12

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    12 Clothe yourselves therefore, as God’s own chosen ones (His own picked representatives), [who are] purified and holy and well-beloved [by God Himself, by putting on behavior marked by] tenderhearted pity and mercy, kind feeling, a lowly opinion of yourselves, gentle ways, [and] patience [which is tireless and long-suffering, and has the power to endure whatever comes, with good temper].

  67. David Marsh Sep 22nd 2012

    Daniel 2:21
    He changes times and seasons; he deposes kings and raises up others. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning.

    1 Samuel 2:6
    “The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.

    Think of the Christians in China and Russia. Is their purpose there to bring in a Godly democratic born again Christian Government?

    The bride is destined to walk with God in an ungodly world. And I dont think anyone is going to change God’s mind on this.
    The current leaders and upcoming political leaders are simply there to fulfil God’s plans. let them alone to do their work I say. And then look to Christ to see what He wants you to do. Christ and the apostles did not bother themselves with the politics of their time.

    Matthew 16:23
    Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

    Jesus words to Peter who tried to change God’s plans.

    God bless you all

    David Marsh

  68. David Marsh, I would agree with you but also add that we should look for the chance to preach the gospel to people in high places.

    Luke 21:12-13

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    12 But before all this, they will arrest you and persecute you, handing you over to the synagogues and prisons; and you will be brought before kings and governors. This will all be on account of me, 13 but it will prove an opportunity for you to bear witness.

  69. debylynne Sep 22nd 2012

    if anyone is interested in reading a thoroughly sound Biblical teaching on this – here it is.

  70. Andrew Strom continues to block me and censor me. I have to continue to post under a different name and email address. I thought he believed in free speech?

    Even the antichrist will be a “christian”,

    Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    The antichrist will quote scripture as the antichrists now do. False prophets are transformed into “angels of light.”

    2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

    2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    Even ghandi and mother theresa appeared as “loving christians.”

    But they were in fact antichrists.

    Paul plainly said if any man or angel preached any other gospel to let him be accursed. That is a harsh statement. Let him be accursed. So we see the majority of professing christendom would accuse Paul of being, crazy, bitter, prideful, and having issues.

    Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

    Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    The love demonstrated in modern day churches today is not true biblical love. It is antichrist.

    True love hates iniquity and loves righteousness just as Jesus did. If we do not hate iniquity as Jesus does then we do not have true Biblical love. Love is reserved for the brethren. God hates the workers of iniquity.

    Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    The common theme of our day amongst “so called christians” today is love, love love. They like to quote the love chapter of 1 Corinthians 13. But they always seem to leave out this verse…

    1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

    Those who rejoice in iniquity do not love the truth and will be given over to strong delusion if they haven’t already.

    2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    The image we have of a timid Jesus are not based on the scriptures. Jesus WHIPPED the money changers out of the temple. Jesus was a righteously angry man.

    The apostle Paul was a rude man…

    2Co_11:6 But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.

    Maybe if many weren’t so spoonfed by false teachers and got into the word for themselves they would know the truth. I assume not as many are BECAUSE THEY ARE heaping to themselves teachers having itching ears…

    2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    a TRUE BELIEVER who is FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST is not only charged to preach the word but to CONTEND for the faith that was ONCE delivered unto the saints.

    This candy coated Osteen gospel is a lying false gospel that is leading billions into an eternal hell…

    Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

    Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

    2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

    2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

    2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Even the devil can quote scripture but not so in truth for he speaks with the forked tongue of half truths. Actually 99% truth and 1% lie which is still a LIE!

    Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

    Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

  71. debylynne Sep 22nd 2012

    if anyone is interested in reading a thoroughly sound Biblical teaching on this – here it is.

    and i APPRECIATE the scriptures you postetd, jeffm – it is GOOD to be ‘reminded’ who we are called to be.

  72. Amen Ibelieve, and thank you Andrew. The Word must be our guide, and certainly not a political platform. Has anyone even considered that when we steadfastly condemn anyone who is not a Republican because they are for abortion and gay rights, that all they have to do is SAY they believe this to get our vote? They don’t have to do anything, do they? All these many years they have done nothing to stop abortion or gay rights (which are in the worlds domain). A president who is not the president of the entire country isn’t going to be much of a president. We’re a democracy in this world. We become OF it when we fight for an issue IN it. The finger pointed in scorn against a woman who has had an abortion, or someone who is gay, will never be on the other end of a Christian who is willing to love the sinner enough to evangelize them.
    While we are ‘standing’ against these sins with our vote, had you noticed that we are also standing with those who would take money from the poor, needy, sick, and old and give it to the rich and decadent? Have you noticed the judgmental condemning spirit that condemns this is Republican? Have you noticed that the powers that be have not only failed to stop abortion, but have placed the carrot further away with the personhood amendment so that politicians can still lead ‘Christians’ with an unfulfilled promise that will most likely never be fulfilled before the Lord comes back for us? But that we get farther and farther away from the love God requires with our condemnation? Have you considered that the only ‘proof’ that the President is Muslim rests in an unsubstantiated piece of gossip, while proof that he is not goes ignored?
    Did you know that in the Roman Empire at the time of Christ, babies were frequently simply left outside to die when the father had enough children, and that they saw nothing amiss with this practice? That if someone wanted to pick up the baby to be a slave, that was accepted? Jesus surely knew of this, but NEVER taught his disciples to rail against it. Why? Because that was happening in the world, and he had made a point of not offending the world in order that they would not have a stumbling block placed before them (the elect) that would keep them from him. And surely God cared for these babies that died/were murdered both then and now? Dare we say he doesn’t?

    John 3:16, 17 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who-soever would believe in him would not perish but would have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”

    Matthew 25:34-46 says that the nations will be judged by whether or not we cared for the needy and the alien. Not by what stand we took on abortion and gay marriage. But wait, wouldn’t that mean that while we were standing there on that platform of the Christian Right, we were NOT standing for the needs of the poor and the alien, the sick, the elderly? The very things that those hated Democrats stand for.

    Andrew, I remember you saying (very wisely) ‘Wouldn’t it be funny if the Antichrist turned out to be a Republican and all the Christians followed along without a word.?’ (not your exact quote, sorry Andrew.) Just sayin’…..

    Let’s stand down from our platforms in this world and walk in the yoke of Christ Jesus according to what his Spirit tells us to do.

  73. Debylynne- you will have to read my note to possibly understand the truth regarding ecumenical political agendas. All are antichrist. Jesus kingdom was not of this world….

  74. Bill Harper Sep 22nd 2012

    Jeremiah 17:5 says, “Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lorrd.” For the most part the People of the U.S.A. are looking for a man to take this country out of the mess it is in and it isn’t going to happen. After the bombing of the twin towers in New York by the hi-jacked airplanes people were running around saying “God bless America.” God isn’t going to bless America again until we turn our hearts back to serve him, repent for the abortion, sodomy, fornication, adultery and all the other wickedness we have become so accustomed to. Judgment must begin at the house of God, and it is up to the true Christians first to repent of the wickedness that is so widely condoned in this nation. If we aren’t concerned and don’t care about it how can we expect the unrighteous to care about the way things have gone in this nation during my 77 years of life. This is not the nation it was when I was young and sodomy and abortion were both against the law. They are not really “rights” no matter who calls them that. They are wrongs and they are sin, and we, as Christians, must be the first to be concerned about the sins of this nation. There is no politician or group of politicians for that matter that is going to turn things around in this nation. Only the almighty God can do it, and He isn’t going to until there is some very, very, very serious repentence take place beginning with the Christians, for allowing things to reach this stage of degeneration. Bill Harper

  75. debylynne Sep 22nd 2012

    a small exerpt from this teaching – hope that some of you will be willing to hear what he has to say:

    “It is interesting that Christians will quickly say of governmental leaders, “God is going to hold them accountable,” but we rarely see ourselves as equally accountable to God for the political authority He has entrusted to each of us.

    Our most basic, God-given bit of political authority is to vote in elections which determine who will represent and lead us. When we vote for candidates who are pro-abortion (as many professing Christians do), we vote for the death of babies. Will God not hold us accountable? When we vote for candidates who are in favor of stealing our grandchildren’s future earnings to pay for our exclusive current benefits, we are culpable in the theft of our grandchildren. And when we don’t vote in an election, we abdicate our God-given authority, making ourselves no different than the congressman who doesn’t attend a congressional session during a crucial vote.”

    david servant

  76. debylynne Sep 22nd 2012

    sorry, here is the link again.

    i will, thank you.

  77. ZionisaFreak, you are a guest on someone’s forum, but you behave as if you are above everyone and can do whatever you want. The fight you are fighting is your own, it is not The Lord that you are serving. Jesus does not teach people to behave the way you are acting.

  78. debylynne Sep 22nd 2012

    dear zionisafreak
    i went and read the page that your link took me to. i agree – i found this statement in the midst of your writing:

    “God did promise to give us the nations for our inheritance but he did not mean that we are going to conquer the earth before his return.”

    i ABSOLUTELY agree – i also want the OPPORTUNITY to continue to preach the gospel and IF we can have a ‘government leader’ that will ‘allow’ us to do that OPENLY – so much the better – if NOT, we will go ‘underground’ – but, i believe i have a responsibility before GOD to seek for the most effective way to do this – and i’m HOPING for ‘openly’.

    what has become INCREASINGLY apparent the last 4 years is that ‘the gospel of Jesus Christ’ and His people are being come against in an effort to SHUT THEM UP……..

    everyone needs the opportunity to HEAR the REAL gospel of Jesus Christ – including the muslims in this country – but, that is becoming INCREASINGLY hard to do.

    so, i WILL vote and i will vote for the man that i believe will be most ‘sympathetic’ to the ’cause of Christ’ and i will stand by that decision – i will do what the LORD has given me the ‘power’ to do and i will leave the results with HIM……but, i will NOT be ashamed when i stand before HIM, as i would be if i ‘chose’ to do nothing.
    thank you for allowing me to read what you have written and the LORD bless you

  79. Andrew Sep 22nd 2012

    I am fine with voting, as I am sure Lee Grady is also.

    But I totally question Christians getting into “political activism” that involves bitter and hateful diatribes – totally unChristlike.

    However, I do believe in speaking up on issues of a “spiritual” or moral nature – speaking the Truth in love.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  80. debylynne Sep 22nd 2012

    yes, andrew, i completely agree – there is no place for vindictiveness and hatefulness – we MUST remember ‘what spirit we are of’ – no matter WHAT ‘arena’ we are in.

  81. Debylynne- Not sure if you are familiar with Kirk Cameron and his new movie with Glenn Beck but this blog reveals how ecumenicalism and patriotsim is antichrist…

  82. Do you think revival will be led by someone whom God chooses? Someone who makes God happy?

  83. ValleyAnt Sep 22nd 2012

    In the Bible, God rebuked Israel several times for building their own homes while His temple was in ruins. It appears apparent to me that while our own churches are broken down, we shouldn’t linger long on politics over coffee and tea. Why should we care so much what’s going on in the world when so few are building the Lord’s House (‘church’ the Lord’s way as modeled in the Bible)?

    I believe we can watch world events and man’s kingdom like little children in a warm house gazing out a window in wonder at falling snow, or we can at least in humility acknowledge that if we are still drawn to satan’s masterful chess-playing in economics, politics, education, media, the arts, etc., then we certainly aren’t among those Jesus spoke about in saying “The Kingdom of God has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.” Priorities, priorities. Moreover, it’s good that Anti-Christ and Lawlessness are so upon us and our societies, because the great fear, anxiety, and shaking they will cause Christianity and the world will force wickedness and righteousness to surface and will make God’s work on earth ‘easier’.

  84. I don’t know if my comment is even relevant or will be received, but – I haven’t had a TV (well, we have one but it’s not hooked up to cable) for years and years. (most of at least 10 years or more – lost count now)

    Some may say that I have my head “buried in the sand”, but I felt that there wasn’t much on TV that glorified God, and my husband and I are in agreement, so we just haven’t felt the need to have one.

    I get my news online, but even then, I don’t go looking for things. If there is some news worthy breaking story, I go read. Otherwise, I don’t bother.

    It helps to not get caught up in all the back and forth political arguments. I don’t form my opinions about things based on what I see portrayed on TV.

    I would highly suggest that anyone wanting their discernment to increase, try it..for even a month…you’ll be amazed.

  85. Andrew Sep 22nd 2012

    Totally agree, DL.

    Great comment.

    Bless you!


  86. David Sturtz Sep 22nd 2012

    I see many here are willing to believe and state here that political systems in general and ours in particular are part of Satan’s kingdom and therefore refuse to participate. I understand that viewpoint. What I don’t understand is the lack of consistency. Someone will not participate in government because it is corrupt and evil, but will readily accept the benefits of that same government. Will you refuse unemployment compensation, free education, police protection, fire protection, social security, and free medical care for the poor? Will you refuse to go to parks, libraries and museums run by this same Satanic institution? Is the the most christian thing to do to accept all the benefits of the government while refusing to contribute anything to it’s improvement? That of course, is the easiest course. When those volunteer firemen or paramedics arrive I am glad that they don’t share your view. When I have some difficulty with Social Security or some other government agency and I contact my representative or senator for help I am glad they are there and don’t share your view. It is very easy to sound very high minded, spiritual and above it all, while not having to dirty your hands in the hard work of bringing more of the light of the Gospel into our government.

  87. Ibelieve Sep 22nd 2012

    Quote: Is the the most christian thing to do to accept all the benefits of the government while refusing to contribute anything to it’s improvement? UNQUOTE


    Were do you think they get all the money for this so called benefit package?

    Its called Taxes, that we pay for.

    You work all week and your wages are taxed, you go to buy items you need to survive and its taxed, you sell an item and make a profit off of it and then you have to pay taxes again. Anything you own cars, houses, etc, you have to pay yearly taxes.

    Now, if Obamacare ends up going through we will be forced to pay taxes for health care, or face a fine which I just read is going to be over $2000.00 by the year 2016.

    When you pass on if you have any worldly possessions to leave to the children they have to pay taxes on it. Its like we’re paying to be alive.

    Unemployment compensation is money that comes out of your pay check, College costs a fortune, what is free about this, social security is money out of our pay checks, and last but not least the working class is paying for the medical care for the poor not the government.

    The government refuses the light of the gospel as they are constantly removing anything that has anything to do with Christianity.

    I cannot agree that this government has our best interests at heart.

    The reason any Bible believing Christian thinks that this government is part of satans kingdom is because it is stated in the Bible.

  88. Andrew Sep 22nd 2012

    I don’t agree with opposing the Government or disparaging it. “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and unto God what is God’s”.

    I also am fine with VOTING.

    And of course, this means one can fully partake of the benefits of that Government.

    Bless you!


  89. Foolhardy Fred Sep 22nd 2012

    What is the difference between denying essential health care or basic social welfare to the poor, the needy and the homeless and abortion?
    What is the difference between the government accepting homosexuality as normal and the church modifying and effectively denying the Bible as the Word of God in order to be “emerging” or “seeker friendly” or apostate in any of the myriad of other ways that the church has found to dilute denigrate and betray the Word of God – His Word THE BIBLE in this day of wholesale apostasy.

    How dare anybody try to align GOD with either side of politics!


    What is puny man that thou art mindful of him at all?

    Vote however you want to vote BUT in your own best interests.

  90. Ibelieve Sep 22nd 2012

    In hindsight, I’m not the best at making a point clear as in writing a comment, as you cannot say everything in one post.

    But I do not feel the government is giving me some benefit package as its the taxes of the working class that pay for something whether you want it or not.

    That was my point. Not that we should refuse to pay taxes.

    I agree with what your saying as we are commanded to obey those in authority. But no where does it say to join in and become part of the system. I do believe our government is one of the kingdoms of this world and is controlled by satan.

    Participation to me is when people take the side of some political party and try to make it a Christian endeavor.

    If your republican you must be Christian. Not necessarily. There are republicans that support gay marriages and abortion.

    I am not against voting but I believe God ultimately puts into office who He wants there.

    Voting is a freedom but does it really do any good?

    In Him,

  91. ValleyAnt Sep 22nd 2012

    There’s a saying that too much of anything is bad. The Bible clarifies it by saying that “those who are led by the Spirit, they are the [mature] sons of God”. This means that whether a thing appears good or bad, it is good when God is the One leading a Christian in it and bad when He is leading them away from it. Those led to vote (or whose conscience is clear) should vote and those the Lord tells not to shouldn’t. In this time, all candidates will be set to follow satan’s agenda for mankind (just so we know); and we know his agenda isn’t good. (The important thing is to not hope for good to come from people but from God.)

    In the OT, God led prophets and Israeli kings to advise, rebuke, preach repentance to, and help and aid and strengthen ungodly and even pagan kings and nations. This was the Lord’s doing, and it was marvelous in His sight; but if God’s heart isn’t in a thing, then ours shouldn’t be either. Everything God has made is good, and the Bible tells us to pray for governing authorities good or bad. But it’s a matter of the heart: we should appreciate and receive God’s Grace wherever it comes from (corrupt government and politicians and evil people and criminals included, because aren’t we ourselves all of the above), but our hearts shouldn’t hope that good (i.e. agreement with good, genuine goodwill, or goodness of heart) will come to us from any system or person, religious or secular, that opposes God: “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may [those] also do good who are accustomed to do evil” (Jer. 13:23).

  92. Joshua 5:13-15

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

    Commander of the Lord’s Army

    13 When Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in His hand. Joshua approached Him and asked, “Are You for us or for our enemies?”

    14 “Neither,” He replied. “I have now come as commander of the Lord’s army.”

    Then Joshua bowed with his face to the ground in worship and asked Him, “What does my Lord want to say to His servant?”

    15 The commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

  93. debylynne Sep 22nd 2012

    dear ones
    DL – i agree, as well. amen.

    God DID establish ‘govenment’ – without it, there IS chaos. that doesn’t mean it is ALL GOOD AT ALL…..
    but, even when we ‘pull out’ scriptures to ‘prove our point’ we need to remember that if we step back and look at the WHOLE, we can sometimes see much more clearly.

    what GOD has declared will happen, WILL happen. i do NOT doubt this one iota. we can ‘sit in our warm houses and look out’ as was described, but that seems rather selfish to me……(i’m NOT meaning that as an attack – i’m sure that is NOT how it was actually meant, but it reminds me of the old adage ‘bless us four and no more’. i’m just pondering here, please understand me)

    i could go on and on about abortion and the homosexual agenda and many other things, but, honestly?? there are ALWAYS ‘counter arguments’ depending of ‘how you see it’ as to whether we, as Christians can or SHOULD try to ‘change anything’. so, i will step away from those issues, although let’s be clear about something…..God destroyed people over the sin of homosexuality and it’s ‘companions’ – YES, i know there was much more to it – but, He DID. He addresses this rampant sin specifically in the N.T……but, the poor? what did JESUS say….”the poor you shall aways have with you and you can do them good whenever you want”.

    the poor matter to God – and it MUST grieve Him to have them ill treated – but He has NEVER destroyed people/places because of this – just something to consider when considering the things that DEEPLY grieve the heart of God. you see, homosexuality is such a SLAP in the face of GOD because it declares we REJECT ‘Your’ way God – we like out perverted way better – we REJECT Your wisdom of man/woman and how you created all things to operate in relationships – we KNOW better what is GOOD… least that is how i see it.

    in the end, though, it isn’t about one party or person being ‘more righteous’ or more ‘of God’, but it IS about the gospel going forth and IF we have ANY wisdom in God, let us TRY and choose the ‘avenue’ that seems to be more HOPEFUL for our REAL cause here in the earth – to be ABLE to speak the TRUTH openly to those that need to hear it.

    to me, that’s it. that IS what matters in the end. we can stay ‘safe and sound’ in our ‘Christian world’ (if, we really think that is what we will ALWAYS have, i fear we are very mistaken) and not worry about the ‘rest’. or, we can pray and choose a ‘government’ that is more LIKELY to allow us to freely preach the gospel in this country and that means the WHOLE gospel where we CAN call sin – SIN. with what has been going on the past 4 years especially, that is FAST becoming something that Christians are NOT going to be ‘allowed’ to do.

    for those that say our ‘vote’ doesn’t matter… me, that is like saying ‘prayer doesn’t matter’ – why pray?? it isn’t going to make any difference….if GOD has placed you here in these United States, then HE gave you the ‘right’ to vote – HE did – not some man or men. God placed you where you are to do HIS will, so let’s ‘try and do it’.

    i WILL pray and i WILL vote for what i believe will BEST further the gospel and the purpose of the true Church in sharing the whole Word of God in these United States and going out to the world wherever the LORD gives us an avenue – then, i MUST leave it with HIM and know simply that i have done what lay within my responsibility to do in this……..

    it IS about the ‘gospel going forth’ more than ANY other thing and the LORD has ‘allowed’ us to see what WILL happen if the goals of the current administration are allowed to be met – if we do nothing – we WILL be ‘shut up’ and people will die in their sins because we did not care enough to do one simple thing……….

    we are ‘entrusted’ by the LORD with certain things – when we give to the poor, WE take what the LORD has given us and seek to USE it for His glory and to please Him…..this IS the way HE has set it up – He doesn’t ‘give the needy money’ and then ‘send us a card’ telling us He has done this ‘in our name’ without any participation on our part…..NO….He gives US certain blessings AND responsibility with it and then, waits to see if we will use them for HIS glory or for our own selfish purposes……HE DOESN’T BY-PASS US IN THIS PROCESS – He allows HIS people to be part of what is done – THAT, to my way of thinking, includes VOTING if you are blessed to live in this country.


  94. debylynne Sep 22nd 2012

    you are RIGHT, jeffm – it isn’t about ‘sides’ – it IS about the gospel of Jesus Christ going forth and for the FIRST time, we have had an administration that is ACTIVELY trying to STOP that – that must be our main ‘concern’.

  95. Brother Andrew- Thank you for all you have done and continue to do for the Lords church. God is used you to punch a gigantic breach in the enemies chains of deception which he had imprisoned many of God’s elect with. Thank you also for enduring the folly, abuse and downright nastiness you subject yourself to each and every time you post something. Please do not be discouraged my brother. remember how David had to endure constant folly of the discontents who banded themselves around him. Remember to my friend that even the Lord’s elect are just waking up from a long slumber of deception. Expect them to be grumpy, fearful and demanding for a season. The religious nut cases will continue to spew their venom. Do what you can to shut them out. But let the saints be fearful of anything supernatural for a season- they have been deeply burnt and once burnt twice shy.
    Be patient my brother like Moses and their knees jerk reactions will settle up on the razor back narrow way Jesus is calling us all into.
    Bless you bless you bless you my friend!
    Barry Schmidt
    Grande Prairie Alberta Canada

  96. Brother Grady’s point is a very good one. Jesus said “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” John 13:35. It is the watermark of all true disciples of Christ and yet many bash those who perhaps don’t understand as they do, they bash the weaker brother and the young. This is a perversion of what Jesus Christ came to accomplish in his body. These actions closely resemble those of the Jews who sought to stone the woman caught in adultery (John 8:3). We are to be gentle with one another, not harsh. Remember those who used the law to condemn others? We need to be merciful.

    1)We as Christians should not try to establish a nation on this Earth, we are to be about the business of Kingdom of God. Preach the Gospel and call all men to repentance.

    2)Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. That is to say obey the laws of the land without complaint.

    3)Pray for the the leaders.

    1st Timothy 2:1-6
    ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    We live in a fallen world, we need to accept this. With this fact comes the realization that the leader and the laws of the land we live in will most likely be corrupt. We should petition our leaders to deal justly and present them with the gospel.

    Remember that God uses persecution to refine the Saints so you should expect that at some time persecution will come into the land where we live. It does not surprise me at all that the sentiment in America is growing against Christians, persecution will bring revival. The Church in America is mostly lax, much like Laodicea found in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

    We pray for revival, well it’s coming so get ready.

  97. Mark Roberts Sep 22nd 2012

    I would like to second Barry’s comments. I just bought and read Andrew’s book, “Why I left the prophetic movement”, and it was a big encouragement to me. It is good to know there is an articulate voice in the Body of Christ who steers between cessationism and charismania. I pray that many more will.

  98. Our criticism is best used against ourselves using it for self examination.

    Am I holy? Do I have sin in my life?
    Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

    Do I walk in love toward my brothers?
    John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

    Am I a true son of God? Am I truly lead by the spirit of Christ?
    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    Am I an example to others of what God accomplishes in his Saints? Do I encourage others to do good?
    Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

  99. ValleyAnt Sep 22nd 2012

    Jeff, that’s a fitting passage. As we see the Lord more and more “with unveiled faces”, we come to understand more and more that He isn’t for one against another and doesn’t ever take sides, as we are accustomed to doing, but that “He is” and it is we who must take sides: for Him or against Him. (We often see this holiness of not taking sides in Jesus in the NT, and it is what the OT means in saying and showing that both good and evil come from God.) There is no middle ground; either it’s holiness and submission to God or it’s disobedience and rebellion against God. The religious who must take sides will come to understand this in the very last days.

  100. DeWayne Sep 22nd 2012


    The word of God describes (two) forms of government that God allows be established.

    God allows be established (good authority) that is benefitial… to those so deserving.

    God allows be established (evil authority) that is benefitial… to those so deserving.

    Now is a good time to re-examine the statement “obey all authority”, as it is evident one will have the character of Christ, and the other the character of Satan.

  101. One of Christ Jesus statements of Fact keeps ringing in my head in these posts, “In this world but not of this World”. This marvelous Scripture is so soothing and encourageing. However, It is also very dividing in Christian circles.

    I’ve lived on this earth for a very long time now, so it means something extra special to me. As I look back on my life beginning in 1932, I have learned, by the Grace of God, that my human character is as filthy rags. Nothing in me is/was matter how cute and good I was. It is Christ in me that I charish, period.

    Because God loved me, He gave me life. Choosing Jesus Christ was the only ‘smart’ thing I ever did. And it’s taken a lifetime to let Him mold me in His direction. Yes, now I truly know what He said is true to the end. I am in this world, the place that houses His loved ones, but when it ends, we are still His Forever…Lee Grady’s article brings many thoughts to the table, and I see a lot of good thinking displayed here…Just remember, thoughts are so much more pure than actions.

  102. debylynne, you have a right to vote and that also means a right to not vote. But it is our role as a citizen and not a command from God. It is no use pretending we are not in this world and can’t do what others do as citizens to make changes. But we need wisdom to see how God views it. He will never pick a human side ,even in a war to stop “evil”.

    You have a good short term view of why we should vote , so that the gospel is not made illegal. But where does that view end in the long run? Do we use politics to build Christ’s Kingdom? War and regime change by covert methods is very much a part of politics. So if we can use politics to keep the gospel legal here in America , what about other countries? It would then be ok to want a war or CIA covert regime change in any country that is unfriendly to Christ’s gospel. That type of christianity is of the world ,not of Christ.

    So the government give us rights we can use to change government but it is not God who gave us those rights to build His Kingdom.

  103. DeWayne Sep 22nd 2012


    Re-opposing government/authority, today a people do what they call ‘civil disobedience’, doing this hoping to bring attention to a wrong… of which some believe sinful.

    I repeat that John the Baptist following ‘proper respect’ for authority, stood outside the palace speaking (protesting) the sin of Herod. There are some that believe this was in error, saying it resulted in John’s beheading… this I believe from not understanding the command of having nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but to rather (expose) them.

    Will in the last days authority have Christians killed for doing good, or perhaps for what they consider ‘protesting’… in the news around the world this is already happening (as signs of the times).

  104. DeWayne Sep 22nd 2012

    It would appear God took the first covenant through the natural world under law, from which we have the upright and righteous… some as myself calling them part of the first resurrecton.

    It would appear that God is taking this second covenant through the spiritual world, under grace… although most seem wanting to remain in the natural world.

  105. Barry, excellent word! Thank you for sharing that!

    Maybe we ARE just starting to wake up??

    I trust that there are so many of us. Brothers and Sisters that want truth. Brothers and Sisters that want to do whatever it is that God wants. They fail miserably (and they are aware of it!), but they WANT the truth. They want King Jesus to rule and reign, like me, they just don’t know HOW to live out their faith anymore.

    We see the injustice in the world, we hear the cries of the lost and dying and we are moved with the Lord’s compassion to ‘go into all the world to make disciples’. For a time we think that changing laws and Government leaders will change our countries, so we voice our protests, we stand for injustice, and pray for reformation, and to our discouragement we see our countries go deeper and deeper into sin. All our effort seems for naught.

    We go to church. We go to the Body of Christ and we try to live out our faith in a practical way that will please God. We try to get involved in their programs and their seminars and the latest fad and all we get is fuller and fatter and lazier and more disillusioned, as we realize that all those teachings seem for naught.

    If we are dead honest with ourselves we have to admit that the teaching we are receiving isn’t even impacting OUR lives with any life changing results, why would we want duplicate it with others? That’s why we don’t get involved in the endless conferences, etc. Not because don’t want reformation and revival in our land, but because we don’t believe in their “product”, anymore.

    We read the Word of God and we compare it to the church, and we’re confused and again we protest, but our voices are chocked out by others who tell us that we’re just not submissive enough, or that we just don’t understand the Word of God well enough or we just don’t have enough faith. So we in defeat and rejection, stop going to church and we “sit it out on the sidelines” for a year, or so. Many of us don’t actually “leave” the church, but our hearts have long-since left. We feel like aliens and foreigners.

    Then our desire for fellowship and longing to be used for significance, drives us back to church. Every time we go back in, our eyes have been opened more and more, and it’s harder and harder, to enter in. Again, the disillusionment and confusion…back on the sidelines we go.

    Round and round we go. Some of us have been on this cycle for YEARS! Many are tired, broken, confused. We don’t trust anyone, or anything.

    Every once in awhile we meet like-minded people but again, when we try to put a church or home study together, “this time we’ll do it GOD’S way”, and it crashes and burns and fails miserably and we wonder why?

    We pick through the ruins of our lives and read endless articles and prophecies, looking for answers..looking for JESUS..looking for signs of LIFE!

    We wonder if the reality is that it’s just us, after all? Maybe we’re just weird. Maybe the truth is that we’ve driven so far off into the ditch that we just don’t ‘get it’. And hey, there’s always a brother or two, there to AGREE with us!

    I suspect that are many of us just like this”out there”…and…lately…a tiny flicker of light in me is sensing… that ..FINALLY God has gotten our attention. FINALLY, God will have a people set apart and Holy for Himself. It’s just a flicker, but it’s there..

    I am so past being hungry for God to move that I am finally ready to do it His way. I don’t care about being entertained. I don’t care about money. I don’t care about numbers and big churches and programs and schemes and plans and grow big churches with shiny buildings and “you need to buy my book and companion CD” and the latest blah blah blah. I’m not looking to the Government, or the half asleep, mostly apostate church to save me…I want Jesus, and Him alone.

    I surrender. I give up. Come Lord Jesus. Have Your way.

    Maybe God will hear us if we cry out like that?

  106. DeWayne Sep 23rd 2012

    I believe this true, that being sent out into the world, we will be witness both in spoken-word and action-deed.

    Christ said concerning both about Himself, John 10:36-38 “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

    I believe in both word and deed (perhaps in spiritual miracle), we are to disciple the nations. As time becomes shorter with wars until the end, according to scripture we will be brought before the authorities… for both word and deed.

  107. DeWayne Sep 23rd 2012

    Will we change the prophetic by what said or by deed… in (your) micronized existance…. YES.

    Are you up against an immovable evil, and only one person…. YES.

    Well quit… although I wouldn’t say that is what Christ is telling you.

  108. DeWayne Sep 23rd 2012

    Re “But I totally question Christians getting into “political activism” that involves bitter and hateful diatribes – totally unChristlike.”

    Here is what I hear you saying…

    If a Christian uses vulgarity, then most assuredly rebuke such ‘talk’, because it is not Christlike nor serve Christ’s pirpose. Does this make all words out of a Christians mouth a subject of error, if within the issue of politics or world events, hardly.

    There is a time for peace, and a time for war… and it is discernment needed to tell one from another… correct?

  109. DeWayne Sep 23rd 2012

    eyes again… change to spelling to (purpose)

  110. David Sturtz Sep 23rd 2012

    I hardly agree with everything our government does and says. It is imperfect and many things it does I decry. It is too big, too intrusive, too expensive, has many programs that I find ungodly and sinful. I have been in the top leadership of many churches in the last 50 years. Believe me the government has no monopoly on ungodliness and sin. I do not therefore reject church as an institution. Government was established as an institution in the Old Testament and He has much to do and say with and about it. God established three institutions; the family, the church and government. They are all essential to everyone’s life. You can choose not to participate in any one of those, but that does not mean that one or the other is more important or spiritual. It is a spiritual and godly act when I counsel my children or someone at work, at church or someone in the government to take this or that action that brings God’s light and life into a situation.

  111. DeWayne Sep 23rd 2012

    Re… “you are RIGHT, jeffm – it isn’t about ‘sides’ – it IS about the gospel of Jesus Christ going forth and for the FIRST time, we have had an administration that is ACTIVELY trying to STOP that – that must be our main ‘concern’.”

    Christian church and ethic (called Judean/Chistian) began erroding many, many decades ago, you might say beginning when infested blankets were sent to indians as a sign of Christlike.

    To give (one) political party Satanic character is what Christians of this nation must cease, the underpinning and base of this nation began decades the (political and moral) signs almost blinding.

    However did this start an hour ago, a week ago, a year, ten, hundred… I believe it started as more and more false teching and prophecy began being accepted ‘in-sides’ the Christian church, not in the world where this is expected. Prophecy today seems to be heard more often that God is shaking the church, I believe with good reason… the earth shaking begins???

  112. debylynne Sep 23rd 2012

    dewayne – you are right. but, there is also the ‘authority’ that we actually HAVE in this country that the LORD has allowed – we, the ‘voters’ carry an authority, as well. if anyone bothered to read the article i posted from david servant, he describes this VERY well indeed. much better than i ever could.

    we must ALWAYS obey the ‘authority’ of GOD above ALL – and i believe that God’s will, as much as i am able to understand it, is that we, His people, do whatsoever we are able to ensure that the gospel is NOT muzzled, and that IS what is going on right now as NEVER before in our country.
    this is my concern.

    jeffm – i understand what you are saying. i DO believe that we were born HERE (those of us who are) in God’s will, though, and i DO believe that means that HE gave us the ‘rights’ we have and like ANY OTHER BLESSING God gives us – we are to use it for the GLORY OF GOD AND HIS KINGDOM……just as i said above – the LORD blesses us with ‘material things’ but waits on us to see if we will honor HIM and His gospel in the earth with them or not – i see this as the same. the right to ‘choose leaders’ and therefore to the best of our ability to ‘lay the groundwork’ for the gospel to go forth as freely as possible is ALSO a ‘trust’ from the LORD. i see it as ‘our part’ as well as praying ‘they kingdom come, they will be done, on earth as it is in heaven’.

    we ALL know that the LORD will have His way – but, we also know that HE has given US a part to play in it – we just seem to SEE that ‘part’ differently.

    in the long run, what the Word of God DECLARES will happen, will happen – period. i just need to know that i did whatsoever i could to ‘promote’ the gospel on every level.

    sometimes, we all sound so ‘superspiritual’ in our declarations about ‘not having anything to do with the world’ and of course, we all know that we do NOT love the world, nor the things OF this world – but the LOST??? what of them?? THEY will be the losers if we stand by in our ‘righteousness’ – our ‘safeness’ and do not try to oppose the tide of evil in every way we can……

    we have a PART and if you examine the Word of God honestly, i believe you will see that not ONLY prayer has been required but ACTION, as well, when it IS within our power to do SOMETHING.

    in the ‘long run’ persecution will come – other believers in other parts of the world already have experienced this first hand – but should we just ‘lay down’ and say ‘why resist evil’??

    we ARE to resist evil – on all levels – and THAT is what i am seeking to do with all my heart. (and the evil i am speaking of is NOT a man or a ‘party’ – it is the evil one who is seeking with all his might to shut the mouth of the true church in this country)

  113. debylynne Sep 23rd 2012

    i knew when i posted previously that someone was going to say this – dewayne, you are right. it did not ‘start’ with this administration, but what i said is still TRUE – we have never had such OPEN opposition to the true gospel of Jesus Christ and to the nation of israel as what we have had under this administration – we have never had such blatant ‘disregard’ for even our ‘man made constitution’ when it comes to opposing Christians and their right to SPEAK out on what they truly believe – the Word of God – as it refers to SIN and false religions.

    i’ve been in this world and country for almost 60 years and i will tell you – this is DIFFERENT – in my humble opinion

    the ‘shaking’ has begun – can there be any doubt??

    i am NOT putting the title ‘satanic’ on either party – please do not attribute that meaning to my words – but, let us be honest, individuals and groups of individuals ‘give themselves over’ to the working of the evil one – it has been this way since the beginning and will be ever thus – they are but pawns in his hand. may God have mercy on them….

  114. debylynne ,I don’t see it as a “if I am right and you don’t agree then you are wrong ” situation. We both look at different things that Jesus reveals and judge by those things. I used to wonder why I was so blessed by God to live in the best country in the world. Now I have the complete opposite view of what the United States is. America is the latest nation ,in the history of all nations, that Satan is using to try to bring all the world under the rule of one government. I won’t vote for that.

  115. DeWayne Sep 23rd 2012

    I often hear talk of a few that contribute little to this nation, and of great distress that they expect much (welfare).

    Reminding of my experience entering the military as poor for education, out of which for myself was very beneficial, supporting my entire family thereafter with single income as result this costly training.

    As usual for the ‘little guy’, this reminds me of data showing it is mostly the poor that enter the military, and of these many in decades of (empire) wars, that it was mostly the poor that gave their life for this (christian) nation.

    Now concerning the vast (welfare) doled out to these ‘undeserving’, how much was the lives of these undeserving-poor worth?

    My own opinion… more than this entire nation of ignorant greed, let the godly pray blessing on their 80% importation from Third World slavery… such discernment needs reward.

    God established government (king)… because heaven on earth was not enough to hope and pray for. Let us keep what we have earned, and become like all the other nation’s with wood and stone idols to worship. Only a fool would say, those that gathered much did not have to much, and those that gathered little did not have to little.

  116. Doug P. Sep 23rd 2012
  117. debylynne Sep 23rd 2012

    jeff, brother, i don’t consider myself ‘knowledgable’ enough or perhaps ‘spiritual’ enough to KNOW about how the ‘one world government’ will come about – if you are able to look ahead and see that voting a certain way in order to try and have LONGER to speak the gospel FREELY in this country will lead to the ‘one world government’ then you can see much MORE than i. seriously.

    what i DO see is a GREAT danger at this very present time and that has been what has come against true Christianity in the last few years – i am trying to do whatsoever i can that may ‘give us a little longer’ to speak and preach freely – that is all.

    i truly cannot concern myself about things that ARE beyond my ‘ken’ – i have to deal with what is before me and that is what i have said i will do.

    i believe i have said all that i can to the brethren here about my convictions in this – you will each do as you see fit in the LORD and i accept that. i sincerely wanted you to ‘hear’ what i believe the LORD has shown ME in this and that is all i can do.

    i am NOT a ‘political party’ person – MY King and His Kingdom are NOT of this world as we all know – i am wanting to PLEASE Him in doing whatever i can to ensure that as many as possible have the opportunity to hear the REAL gospel of Jesus Christ. that is all.

    you each must decide how best to please the LORD for yourselves. we will, after all, answer ONLY to Him, not to each other.

    amen and amen.

  118. debylynne…
    Satan grows stronger in this nation and world spiritually by the minute, reminding me of Ps 10:16 “The Lord is King for ever and ever; the nations will perish from his land.”

    In the eternal (coming down or revealed out of heaven), where a river of living waters flows, along the banks are tree’s with leaves giving answer to above Psalm… healing the nations.

    Until then I believe it unwise to look forward to a short Millennium yet in this earthage, where some are said rule over lesser people for a Thousands (Chilioi) years…. the only scripture substantuating such in the last days, describes Satan released for a short time.

  119. DL I am probably going to blasted for this perspective among so many “do it yourself make revival happen because it’s up to us to keep the religion train moving forward.” belief structure.

    I just don’t see this self effort religion in Scripture . I see a God who is in charge, who causes dead rebellious sinners to be born again and who is still in charge of building His church.
    God is not looking for religious zealots to start revival fires and keep them burning. he is looking for Elijah’s who refuse to put a match to God’s work, who have more confidence in God’s own zeal than in their own zeal.

    I see the God of the Bible commanding us to rest from our own labors , enter His Sabbath rest and allowing Jesus the Great High Priest who is the only One who is legally allowed to work on the Sabbath rise up within His people to accomplish HIS WILL.

    I see the Bible is not a book about what men do for God. Rather I see the Bible as a book about what God does in through and for men. I see a Soveriegn God who initiates,calls, motivates, empowers men to do HIS WILL. I do NOT see a God who needs man to motivate Him by mans pleadings and mans zeal.

    The Holy Spirit of the Bible is looking for men who will surrender to HIS ZEAL. He is NOT looking for zealous men who want God to do THEIR WILL.

    Why should God bring revival in answer to all the self initiated religious zeal and in doing sp reenforce the lie that revival and the reformation of the church is up to mans efforts and zeal? If God brings revival today then He better apologize for not lighting a fire for those prophets of Baal on Mt Carmel when they cried out, slashed themselves and poured out their self effort zeal before Him.

    May God Almighty be glorified in our day. May the religious zealots shut up and sit down and throw in the towel and enter Gods Sabbath so Jesus the high Priest can light some divine fires. We have seen what men can do . Isn’t it time we quit our religious striving and see what God can do?

  120. Doug P…

    What would probably interest you concerning godly policy, is called “Breaking The Bones”… plug that in and weep.

  121. debylynne Sep 23rd 2012

    all i know, my brethren, is that ALWAYS the LORD gives us a ‘part to play’. always. otherwise, why preach?? why pray?? why feed the hungry?? why DO anything if God will DO IT ALL?? HE established it this way – to give us a ‘part’ – otherwise, HE would have NOTHING to ‘reward’ us for and for some reason, like the WONDERFUL FATHER HE IS, He LONGS to bless us and ‘set us up for blessing’ through the things that He has us ‘do’. it is ALLLL Him – always – but, He HAS made it so we have a part – in His great love, He has done this.

    amen and amen.

  122. Barry….
    I have seen in 76-years what some call revival, evident when many enter a front door, less evident as they leave by the back door.

    Discipling is more than looking good or speaking a good word or words of salvation, the New Testament clearly tells how a church body grows in unity and maturity as (each) do their part.

    I’ve watched and observed as you are concerned, as churches unprepared grow in numbers. and then shrink in number… usually ending little different than how they began. Makes you wonder how many actually read the bible.

  123. debylynne….
    Amen, amen, amen… and let it be so.

  124. debylynne Sep 23rd 2012

    i just want to say before i leave this particular ‘topic’ that i appreciate each one of you that shares the ‘truth of God’ as they see it with sincere hearts and kind and gracious words…..we do not all see the SAME – i wish we did!! but, i am THANKFUL for those that are willing to share what is on their hearts without attacking one another…..

    back to lee grady’s article, one thing i DO agree with heartily is that there is no place for bitterness and hatred and venom among the brethren – i’m NOT advocating ‘mamby pampy’ speaking when the TRUTH must be spoken – but, among God’s people and, as much as it is possible, when dealing with the world, our speech should always be seasoned with grace……may the LORD help ME to remember this and each one of us.

  125. debylynne, what I meant was that the federal government is dominated by people who are “globalists”, they want a world government. Whoever gets voted in as president does not matter, they will push forward their political agenda. That is why I won’t help elect the next leader. Your vote is not going to help bring a one world government.

  126. Wow, why does every discussion turn into this?? Wow! I get so discouraged. Does anyone else see how discouraging this is?

  127. Martin Sep 23rd 2012


  128. Ibelieve Sep 23rd 2012

    I don’t understand what is discouraging to everyone here. Some of the information is confusing and unscriptural but I cannot see it as being discouraging.

  129. DL if it was my comment that you felt discouraged over obviously My comment wasn’t made in the Spirit that I was hoping it came from. Obviously I was I’m the flesh on that one and I missed the Lord on it. So sorry brother! I sometimes wonder if some of us in this discussion are just lonely an perhaps feeling like we have spoken into the wind for so long and just want to vent somewhere.
    I am not making excuses for my carnality but maybe partly why you feel discouraged by the comments.
    Lord help us to speak only by your Spirit and not be compelled by fleshly motives. Your words encourage and bring hope and life. It seem our words bring death.
    So sorry if I hurt anyone by my comments.

  130. Barry, it wasn’t directed at you. Thanks for saying that. You really spoke some wisdom here. I think you’re very true. I think sometimes I am just lonely for true fellowship with other believers. I hadn’t even considered that.

    I guess I get really discouraged when it seems that believers seem so bent on arguing with one another. I am sure I am just perceiving it as arguing when it might actually be healthy discussion.

    Now would be a great time for a group ((hug)) LOL

    Btw, I am a female……:)

  131. Barry , that was not the flesh, we need to forget about what we can do and tell The Father that we love to see Him move and watch what He does.

    DL, I think you are on to something, it isn’t so much that the conversations are wrong but something is needed.

    We do not talk about Jesus enough, like when I first found Jesus as Saviour it was like He was in the room with me all the time. I knew I was loved by God because of the love He showed me.All I wanted was for everyone to know Jesus , I still do but I need to put Jesus into the conversation more. In a real way , not just religion about Jesus.

  132. S Freeman Sep 23rd 2012

    I did delete All my christian friends OFF fb. Not because the Election in the U.S. Because i got angry with some of them. I realize today i should have taken a break from fb. Know i regret what i did. If God wants them to be my friends, on fb. Then he will bring them back to me. God is much Bigger then fb. and the world. I need to trust him through the tough times. Parse him in the Good times.

    God bless from Canada.

  133. Barry, Jeff, Freeman (and all)

    Jeff! Now you’re talking! This is exactly it! Glorifying and lifting up the name of we used when we were first saved…isn’t that what personal revival is all about? Restoring our first loves?

    I think it’s important and even necessary to share, encourage, and even sometimes refute and rebuke each other, but there needs to be balance. Please don’t any one get under condemnation when I say this, but sometimes I get scared to say my opinions for fear of a lynch mob mentality.

    I am so guilty of this too! Sadly, I’m “nice” here on the forums but so many times with my own family I can be bossy and critical about my opinions. I might be ‘right’ but my attitude and motives, completely take away from it.

    Sometimes when we all voice our opinions on here, I worry that people that aren’t believers yet, get the wrong impression about us.

    I guess that is why I feel discouraged. I am concerned that maybe all our “discussing” becomes something that doesn’t glorify God. We might be speaking ‘truth’ but our attitudes are denying God.

    The Word says they will know us by our love FOR ONE ANOTHER. 1 John Chapter 3

  134. Andrew Sep 23rd 2012

    DL – I know exactly what you mean, sadly.

    Blessings to you,


  135. Foolhardy Fred Sep 23rd 2012

    Hello Barry, I thought your comment showed an excellent understanding of the situation at hand. Why are you now apologizing?

  136. Foolhardy Fred Sep 23rd 2012

    DL it is absolutely essential to stand up for The TRUTH of the Word of God and thereby resist wholeheartedly false teaching and all who seek to bring it into the church.

    God does not want unity at any price HE does however want unity in the TRUTH of HIS WORD.

  137. Hi Fred,

    I agree. I’m heart sick at unity at any price. I believe in contending for the faith.

    However, “the heart about all things is wicked, who can know the heart”. We might THINK we are just “standing up for truth”, but we need to submit our own attitudes and motives to the Holy Spirit and keep our hearts open and tender to God’s correction, or we may become a Pharisees.

    If we come ‘whip’ in hand to drive out SIN, but we are not checking our motives and attitudes, we are not any better. Being mean, showing a lack of love, hurling insults, is not standing for truth, in my opinion. To me, that’s fleshy stuff.

    There has to be a way to stand up for truth, but not be mean-spirited? Right?

    It’s all about motive. Jesus modeled the right way for us all. He was heavy on the religious group and continuously called them out, yet he was tender-hearted and merciful to the prostitute and tax-collector. Was this favoritism? Or was God aware that motive was everything.

  138. I am bothered by all the hate in the different parties of politics.
    Some conservatives will speak with such hate towards Latinos who have come to the US. But how many of those Mexican Latinos, or others, prayed for God to help them and bless their journey?
    Some people speak with such hate towards the poor because they get help from the government. How many of those poor thank Jesus for supplying their needs?
    Some speak with hate towards the wealthy. How many of those people tithed and believed God into the blessings they now have?
    The truth is that the blood of Jesus will speak for any believer. And when we just hate, or speak hate, against another human no matter what their nationality, socioeconomic state, race, job of lack of job or whatever, it puts us in danger. We can’t just stomp the blood of Christ under our feet, and refuse to acknowledge the body of Christ simply because our flesh wants to find fault with another human. Where is our compassion.
    And honestly, I see the hate coming a lot more from conservatives who drape themselves in Christian garb, but don’t really walk the walk, you know? We can’t just hate people because they are poor, in need, have dark skin, were born in another nation, or any myriad of other reasons. That is not the way Jesus does things.
    The 47%, or any other %, are not worthless and without value. Jesus died for them , just as he died for any human who will follow Him. Failing to have compassion for all is just sin.

  139. Ibelieve Sep 23rd 2012

    They say in the world there’s two subjects everyone should avoid and that is Politics and Religion.

    Both subjects can bring out the worst in people.

    I think society at large has become more tolerant of open sin and those who make an issue of it are seen as narrow and bigoted.

    Which group is that?

    Well Christians of course, were the only ones making an issue about sin. Other religions practice sin and encourage it.

    Jesus said, He did not come to bring peace but a sword on this earth.

    Politics is of this world we just find ourselves living in this time.

    The thought just occurred to me why all the concern about American politics? In fact most of the articles are about America as though we were the center of the universe.

    What about Australia and New Zealand? Why are these governments and church issues never mentioned over there?

    Just wondering here. :)

    In Him,

  140. Foolhardy Fred Sep 23rd 2012

    Thank you DL. Jesus was actually heavy handed against the Pharisees for substituting their own traditions and teachings for the Word of God. The Word of God has and always will be the ultimate test and standard by which all, even our motives MUST be judged. Jesus ALWAYS supported the WORD of God as the means by which those who belonged to HIM should live and as the basis of faith and indeed faithfulness to HIM.
    Indeed it is because the heart of man is so desperately deceitful that we MUST rely totally on HIS WORD alone. There is NO other way.

  141. Foolhardy Fred Sep 23rd 2012

    Well said Ibelieve. Politics and church issues in Australia are just as perverse as they are in the USA.

    This article is one of many which provides documentary support for my contention that the major point of concern for committed bible believing christians must be the wholesale apostasy that is perverting the (so-called) christian church from within.

  142. Foolhardy Fred Sep 23rd 2012

    Consider these facts in this context as well:

    the Pope himself, among a host of false teachings, has kissed the Koran, referred to Allah as another name for God and Islam as another way to God and yet a host of other significant church leaders including Brian Houston of Hillsong Australia and Billy Graham are prepared to honour the Pope as “a man of God who has done much to further the cause of the Gospel.”

    Billy Graham “agrees with the Pope on most things.”

    I have had a former leader of the AoG in Australia inform me that he would publicly honour the Dalai Lama or any other religious leader if there was something to be gained from it. Although demonstrating the craftiness of a classic politician of the modern era he is certainly not a man whose doctrine I would stake my eternal destiny on.

    I am convinced that it is impossible to be wholeheartedly committed to biblical Christianity and gain enough “popular” votes to win office in our pagan world with the so-called Christian church predominantly Apostate.

    Jesus Christ Himself refused to compromise and accepted death on the Cross rather than the support offered by the prevailing political system of his day in exchange for mere “worship” of the “anointed” leader and compromise with the prominent pagan religions of his day.

    In a democratic society Government has to provide for ALL the people within its constituency NOT just those they happen to agree with.

    For this reason I strongly believe that the role of the church is simply to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and teach people how to live in accordance with HIS Word whilst the role of the government is to govern the country in terms of national Defence and the provision of basic national requirements such as social welfare, roads, hospitals, schools and other forms of infrastructure as required.

    Neither institution is fulfilling their God given roles satisfactorily.

    As a bible believing Christian I look forward to the coming Judgement of God to see God Himself Honour His own Word.

  143. Foolhardy Fred Sep 23rd 2012

    In the confessing church are those who seem to have no regard for truth in the BIBLICAL sense. These people ridicule “doctrine” as something which only divides the body of Christ, it is for the “spiritually dead” christians, who “argue over words and teachings, and are in “head knowledge” and not truly “in the spirit”.

    There are many teachers who are widely accepted by evangelicals and Pentecostals, who teach that which amounts to a complete denial of the truth as revealed by Jesus and the Apostles – BIBLICAL TRUTH.

    It matters little, for example , to the followers of the late Kenneth Hagin that he repeatedly denigrated the Incarnation by declaring that “the believer is as much an incarnation as Jesus was”. When this is pointed out to the “WordFaith” followers of Hagin, if they respond at all it is usually with a statement about taking Hagin’s heretical quotes “out of context”.

    Nor does it matter much to followers of the heretic Copeland, when his various false teachings are held up, word for word, in the light of the Word of God. Copeland denied Jesus’ deity, and proclaimed that any “born again believer with the revelation knowledge Jesus had could have died on the cross and defeated Satan”.

    The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, ‘Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your
    tradition trip you up.’ He said, ‘Think this way – a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.’ And
    I threw my Bible down like that. I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn
    of many brethren defeated him.’ He said, ‘You are the very image, the very copy of that one.’ I said,
    ‘Goodness, gracious sakes alive!’ And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said; ‘Well now you
    don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?’ He said, ‘Oh yeah, if you’d
    had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, ’cause you’re a
    reborn man too.'” ( Kenneth Copeland ” Substitution and Identification”, tape 00-0202, side 2)
    Why do these conversations with the followers of Copeland and Hagin seem to always end the same way ? Why are these people more offended by criticism of their teachers, than by the manifest distortions of the Word of God done by these teachers? The simple answer seems to be that people have more loyalty to their group or false teachers, than to the Word of God. They don’t seem to have the love of the Truth as GOD has plainly provided for us in the BIBLE.
    I could go on ad nauseam expounding upon the routine denial of the Truth, in the church, and the widespread acceptance of the heretics and false prophets who do so with impunity! Hell is being denied these days, so is original sin, Jesus is being redefined in a thousand different ways, the way of salvation is being contradicted as is the wrath of God, and the doctrine of substitution. The Koran is being read respectfully in many churches, homosexuals are being “affirmed” also!
    How could this be possible ? Behold the fruit of fifty years of denigrating doctrine, denying truth, “innovative” preaching, man centered “techniques” of evangelism, and of accommodation to the world spirit, “the zeitgeist”(the spirit of this age) in the name of relevance, and out of a desire to escape the reproach of Christ, who is “the Truth”.
    “After all we wouldn’t want to be percieved as being hung up on dusty doctrine now would we?” But what is doctrine? It is the body of Truth, the revelation from heaven, the only reliable guide to the eternal and spiritual world.
    Belief and unbelief are not merely intellectual excercises, they are spiritual and moral acts as well. That is why it is a sin to believe “the Lie”, or to embrace any lie. Those who believe in the Kenneth Copelands, and Benny Hinns, betray about themselves a perverse inward affinity for the lies that these charlatons put out. False teachers can only appeal to false motives.

    There are a good many who have left the heretics, but are yet unfree because they never really repented of following them. They should have sorrowfully asked themselves what was it in me that resonated with such false teaching? Why would someone want to subscribe to the exaltation of the believer at the expense of the denigration of Jesus? Why would they want to believe that they are “little gods” able to speak reality with their mouths and to shape their own worlds? There must have been an inward affinity for the Lie.
    The same is true of the Truth. Jesus said “All who are “of the truth” will hear my voice”…are you ‘of the Truth’?

  144. Martin Sep 23rd 2012

    Foolhardy Fred, we hear the same voice! It pains my heart deeply to say, we share the same sorrows, and see the same things.

    Conversely, the Holy Spirit brings the comfort of knowing I’m not a lone ranger, that my household is seeing and hearing aright.

    I praise God for the gift of Jesus and for the saints raised up for our instruction and blessing.

  145. DeWayne,

    You keep speaking of discipling as if it is up to us to disciple others, this was not Christ’s instructions but we become disciples of Christ, not of men when we are led by the spirit.

    I know it is taught by most that we should disciple others but that would bake us a Rabbi and Christ forbids such sir.

    Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. We can bring one to Christ through the Gospel but they must be led by the spirit, we show them to seek the leading of the spirit and not to follow us.

  146. “Until we all attain the the unity of THE faith and the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature…As a result we will no longer be infants tossed here and there by every wind of doctrine and tossed back and forth by the waves INSTEAD SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE…”

    According to this passage the vitriole and harsh use of the truth against people is because of NOT speaking the truth in love. What causes that? Well this passage clearly says its caused by the same thing that being tossed about by waves and winds of false doctrine is caused from – IMMATURITY – ” being yet children”.

    All the harsh use of truth without any love in it whether in politics or church is a sign of an immature and childish church.
    We can be right about the truth and yet remain spiritually childish when we lack the Christlikeness, the humility an the kindness to speak truth IN LOVE.

    When my girls were children and fought with each other they always used truth to control and dominate each other . Their mother and I would teach them by example to apologize in front of them for any lack of love in our truth telling and we always told them you could be truthful and still wrong.

    Now that they are grown up they have learned to apologize – not for truth- but for speaking truth without love. That is why I apologized to this discussion group- Not because I spoke truth but because I spoke it with selfish motives.
    Let us all grow up a little more in Jesus and learn to speak truth in love please.

  147. watchful Sep 23rd 2012

    …all because of substituting “church services” in place of walking with God..? Neither Jesus nor the apostles taught that “going to church” is what the Christian life is supposed to be… much easier to be a church-goer though isn’t it!

    Adam before the fall WALKED with God, Enoch also WALKED with God, and Noah WALKED with God. God told Abraham to WALK before Him. The Israelites WALKED through the wilderness following God, David WALKED before the Lord etc, etc, etc………………..

    The Christian life is all about how we walk……we are to walk in the light, walk in the Spirit, etc, etc, as Jesus also WALKED. (But in order to do that we have to have died to ourselves, I keep bumping into my selfishness lately in my walking, and stumbling over it, I hope it means we are beginning to deal with that root at least.)

    If anyone is interested a simple word-search of the words “walk” and “walked” on could prove to be very enlightening, it was for me anyway.

  148. watchful Sep 23rd 2012

    …sorry, my post is referring to what is being said about the waywardness and errors of the church…

  149. Ibelieve Sep 23rd 2012

    Thanks for the information.

    You mentioned several ministers in America who are promoting; denying Christs deity and they say he had to be born again.

    “They” believe that when Jesus died on the cross that in hell He took on all the sins of men and actually became sin. At this time “they” say that Jesus died spiritually because of this sin and had to be born again.

    The question is who died for Jesus, and can God who is the eternal Spirit die?

    They get this doctrine from E. W. Kenyon and Copeland is the one who promotes this teaching. There are a number of big name Charismatics who teach this now. A lot of big name ministers are constantly slipping this into their sermons.

    The fact is Jesus never sinned but He died for our sins.

    It is no wonder that with every wind of doctrine blowing through Christianity that many churches have turned to the secular world and its methods.

    I do not see where Jesus came here for us to build a life in this life. We can try to influence the government or society but ultimately the unregenerate way of thinking will prevail because men in high places are motivated by greed and mammon.

    Jesus did not try to change the Roman government or the society in His day and time. He preached repentance for the Kingdom of God was at hand.

    I do not know if getting into politics is the answer as so many promote. After all a conservative people voted in Hitler and we all know what happened after that.

  150. debylynne Sep 23rd 2012

    dear foolhardy fred
    your words have COMPELLED me to ‘join the discussion’ once more but ONLY to say amen and amen, my brother.

    there is actually MUCH wisdom in these posts and i am encouraged by what i ‘hear’ from the Holy Spirit here.

    i STILL feel compelled to ‘vote’ as i consider it a ‘gift’ from the LORD that i am to try and use as responsibly as i can for the main purpose that the gospel be freely spoken for as long as is possible – BUT i hear clearly all that is being said here and i hear the LORD in these words.

    one thing puzzles me – i can understand people with my viewpoint getting ‘upset’ if other believers ‘don’t see it their way’ and ‘won’t vote’ since they probably think it could ‘make a difference’ – NOT that i am – because i am NOT – each believer is accountable to the LORD and that is that – we must each do what we believe WE are called to do…..but WHY do ‘believers’ seem to get upset with fellow believers like me who believe they ARE supposed to vote??? it isn’t ‘taking anything from them’ – my convictions – are they??

    having said that! i take great comfort from the truth i see here. i would like to just add a little aside here – the ministry of ‘heavens family’ that david servant oversees that i have spoken of here was born out of the LORD bringing him OUT of the Word of Faith camp – a great deliverance from a huge deception……he has much to say concerning the deception that is operating in the body of Christ, in case anyone cares to hear what he has to say – :-) but, his main focus is CLEARLY examining and teaching the straight up Word of God. amen and amen.


  151. Mark Andrew Sep 23rd 2012

    Although we are not supposed to call each other “rabbi”, “father”, etc, and that “etc” surely includes our well-used title of “pastor”, some are called to disciple others. In Matthew 28:19, Jesus Himself commanded those He had Himself discipled to make disciples of others. But I wonder how many today are actually in a position to do this, ie. have first been properly discipled ourselves?

    Mark Andrew

  152. Exodus 3:2

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    2 The angel of Adonai appeared to him in a fire blazing from the middle of a bush. He looked and saw that although the bush was flaming with fire, yet the bush was not being burned up.

    I think this verse is a good example of how our words and conversation should be used for Jesus. What we say should have the goal of setting people ablaze with love for Jesus who is Lord.But we should NOT be trying to burn people up with the truth.

  153. 1 Corinthians 14

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    14 Pursue love!

    However, keep on eagerly seeking the things of the Spirit;

  154. How well do we know jesus?

  155. I thought that Jesus was my boss and that I had to follow His plans? Why the should we be goal setting?

  156. What the Bible commands- Jesus commands- that’s why we make it our goal to pursue love! Unless of course you have missed the entire discussion so far??

  157. Simon, I don’t think that The Lord wants us to think of Jesus as a boss, He is Saviour and Lord. That is far above being anyone’s boss. We follow Christ’s plan because of who He is (Lord of all things). To say that we have to obey Jesus just means that there is no option to not obey, if you know who He is. But it is about loving God.

    The goal to see every heart ablaze with love for Jesus is God the Father ‘s goal and it should also be our goal. If we choose to love and obey Jesus we will know God.

  158. Not only that but the great commission of Jesus to us includes “teaching them to obey everything I commanded you” see Mtt 28;19-20
    Also Jesus ( out boss) said , “This is My command- that you love one another.”
    If the Boss Man says do something then we better obey or we can’t call Him our Boss ( our Lord).
    Jesus said, “Why do you call me Lord and do not do what I say?”
    Jesus IS the Boss and His commands are issued in the Bible. I don’t need a subjective leading of the Spirit when the Jesus of the Bible has said “love one another.”

  159. It is interesting how we play with terms if we really understand Lord we have also to accept the fact we are Christ’s slaves (owned by Christ Himself). Hence absolute boss. We as slaves have not the freedom to plan what we want but are subject to do the masters bidding. I live in a generation that has forgotten this understanding. Were goal setting is wrong is this as slaves our goals are set by our master the only goal of a slave is to obey and honour his master. It is a hard thing for us to accept we are commanded to do rather than choose to do, In Christ the choice is simple either obey Him or live in rebellion to Him.

  160. I realy don’t think that God sees us as His slaves . He is our Father now and we are His children. We do His will in same way that Jesus did The Father’s will , as a loving son. It was becasue of love that Jesus obeyed God. Jesus set the example for us all to follow.

    Galatians 3:26

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    26 For in union with the Messiah, you are all children of God through this trusting faithfulness

  161. A lot of people think the discipleship means school pupil acquiring knowledge and understanding rather it means trained obedience ( more like the army way of training)
    Every child knows he is more or less at the mercy of their father’s will ( the old way of understanding) a slave until the time of independence. The same is true with God our heavenly Father we are dependent on God’s mercy and judgement until the earth is rolled up like a scroll.
    As always things get pulled to the extreme and the other side is often missed for we live in the limits set by God both an upper limit and a lower limit. For indeed we are united in Christ but the outworking of that value comes through slavery unto Christ.

  162. Dunamis Sep 24th 2012

    SIMON You are absolutely on target!

    And THAT is exactly why the people have NO POWER; NO LIGHT; NO TRUTH; and are not TRANSFORMED to the IMAGE OF JESUS.

    THAT is exactly why people have to have a GAB SESSION and TAKE A POLL as to what is TRUTH and what is a LIE.

    If it is good enough for Jesus to humble Himself to come down out of the Heavenly Presence of His Father to live in the Kingdom of Darkness in an INFERIOR BODY OF HUMAN FLESH.

    If it is good enough for Jesus to humble Himself to COMPLETELY DEPEND UPON HIS FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT to give Him the words to speak and the actions to take while He was living here in our dimension, then WE SHOULD NOT BE TOO SELF-RIGHTEOUS TO DO THE SAME.

    The Greek word BOND SERVANT is defined as:

    1) a slave, bondman, man of servile condition
    a) a slave
    b) metaph., one who gives himself up to another’s will those whose service is used by Christ in extending and advancing his cause among men
    c) devoted to another to the disregard of one’s own interests

    Luk 2:29 NASB – “Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word;

    Rom 1:1 NASB – Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

    Gal 1:10 NASB – For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

    Phl 2:7 NASB – but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

    Col 1:7 NASB – just as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who is a faithful servant of Christ on our behalf,

    Col 4:7 NASB – As to all my affairs, Tychicus, our beloved brother and faithful servant and fellow bond-servant in the Lord, will bring you information.

    2Ti 2:24 NASB – The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,

    Tts 1:1 NASB – Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

    Jam 1:1 NASB – James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

    2Pe 1:1 NASB – Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

    Jud 1:1 NASB – Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

    Rev 1:1 NASB – The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and
    communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

    Rev 15:3 NASB – And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, ” Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!

  163. Dunamis Sep 24th 2012


    Corrupt human flesh no NOTHING about HOLY LOVE.

    And that is the kind of Love that we are to have for GOD AND OUR ENEMIES.

    Holy Love cannot be created or originate from the stenched menstrual rags of mankind’s self-righteous carnal flesh.

    Sorry Jeff….but the Holy Love required from you means SACRIFICING YOUR LIFE….ALL OF YOUR LIFE….that means….you have NO CONTROL over your life anymore….you have no SAY SO over your life anymore.

    When we come to the cross we are EXCHANGING our FILTHY LIFE for the LIFE OF JESUS.
    What did Jesus own? NOTHING
    What decisions did Jesus make? NONE (see John 17)
    What goals and plans did Jesus make? NONE (see John 17)

  164. Dunamis Sep 24th 2012

    The FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT are the Nature(character) of Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

    These are not fruit that are picked off of the Tree of Life and handed to you.

    Gal 5:16 KJV – [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

    Gal 5:22 KJV – But the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    Gal 5:23 KJV – Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    In other words:

    The Holy Spirit’s JOY
    The Holy Spirit’s PEACE
    The Holy Spirit’s LONGSUFFERING
    The Holy Spirit’s GENTLENESS
    The Holy Spirit’s GOODNESS
    The Holy Spirit’s FAITH
    The Holy Spirit’s MEEKNESS

    These things don’t come from us…we don’t work them up in us ……we DON’T LEARN THESE THINGS.

    The FRUIT FLOW through us and out of us like RIVERS OF LIVING WATER into the Kingdom of Darkness.


  165. Dunamis Sep 24th 2012

    Amen again SIMON!

  166. Dunamis Sep 24th 2012



    Caps are making a MAJOR point…not yelling

  167. Dunamis Sep 24th 2012


    Here’s another example of the Baptism of God’s Holy Fire Presence:

    Isa 48:10 NASB – “Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

    Dan 3:20 NASB – He commanded certain valiant warriors who were in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego in order to cast them into the furnace of blazing fire.

    Dan 3:21 NASB – Then these men were tied up in their trousers, their coats, their caps and their other clothes, and were cast into the midst of the furnace of blazing fire.

    Dan 3:22 NASB – For this reason, because the king’s command was urgent and the furnace had been made extremely hot, the flame of the fire slew those men who carried up Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego.

    Dan 3:23 NASB – But these three men, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, fell into the midst of the furnace of blazing fire still tied up.

    Dan 3:26 NASB – Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the door of the furnace of blazing fire; he responded and said, “Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, come out, you servants of the Most High God, and come here!” Then Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego came out of the midst of the fire.

    Dan 3:27 NASB – The satraps, the prefects, the governors and the king’s high officials gathered around and saw in regard to these men that the fire had no effect on the bodies of these men nor was the hair of their head singed, nor were their trousers damaged, nor had the smell of fire even come upon them.

  168. Dunamis Sep 24th 2012

    We begin our lives with Jesus Christ as BABIES.

    Babies that are feeding at the breast on milk.
    When we are rooted in God’s Love for us and in trusting HIM ONLY (Jeremiah 17), THEN we are promoted to being trained as a DISCIPLE.

    A disciple is like a puppy learning to be “leash trained”.
    Check out the Gospels and how Jesus discipled the Disciples! What did Jesus say to each one of these disciples when they had an idea of their own?? or a plan of their own?? (Oh especially Peter…but not ONLY)

    When a disciple has learned to obey the voice of the Holy Spirit AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, then they are promoted to SERVANT.

    Who does this servant serve??? ONLY GOD.

    If a servant is found FAITHFUL IN A LITTLE, then they are given more duties in the Kingdom.

    The more faithful a servant is in ministering to the LORD and serving the LORD, the more TRUSTWORTHY they are and God calls them FRIEND.

    As the friend’s faithfulness increases and they become OVERCOMERS, THEN THEY ARE CALLED SONS.

    Sorry to disappoint y’all…..but you are not called SONS until you OVERCOME the world, the flesh, and the devil.

  169. Jesus loves you. God loves you so much He sent His son Jesus to die for you. The goal of The Lord is that the love He has for us will be returned back to Him, as we choose to love Jesus.The fulfillment of love is be loved in return by the one that you love.That is what The Father wants, He wants us to know that He loves us( in Jesus) , and He wants us to love Him (in Jesus).When you know this love you will be devoted to God and will to do His will. It does not work any other way.

  170. We are accustomed to live by knowledge, what we believe what we hope for. In Christianity these things can become very destructive. For we live by Christ unto God. It is what God says is right that is right it is how God views me that counts not how I view myself. Many seek revival, many seek purification yet many refuse to pay the price to get there. There is no change unto holiness without paying a price, no understanding without loss, no gaining without losing pride.
    What we often hope for becomes our worst enemy for we assume we have what we hope for only to discover its emptiness. Jesus paid the price for my sins now I must pay a price to be changed into His likeness.
    It seems to me we all desire quick fixes however in Christianity that is the “special” instead of the norm for the norm in Christian life is learning through hardship and pain.

  171. Anyone who believes that Jesus is truly the Son of God and that because God the Father loves us, Jesus died on the cross for our sins, will be forgiven and set free from the bondage of sin. When you find the love of God because of faith in Jesus you will love The Lord God more than anything. To do His will is then a joy and a blessing from God.You will walk in Christ’s love and love God and love people as you see The Father loving them.

  172. David Marsh Sep 24th 2012

    In other words:

    The Holy Spirit’s JOY
    The Holy Spirit’s PEACE
    The Holy Spirit’s LONGSUFFERING
    The Holy Spirit’s GENTLENESS
    The Holy Spirit’s GOODNESS
    The Holy Spirit’s FAITH
    The Holy Spirit’s MEEKNESS

    These things don’t come from us…we don’t work them up in us ……we DON’T LEARN THESE THINGS.

    The FRUIT FLOW through us and out of us like RIVERS OF LIVING WATER into the Kingdom of Darkness.


    Romans 8:5
    For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

    Romans 8:5 – tells us how we abide, or how we can have our hearts and soul to be continually abiding in God’s Holy Spirit.
    We do it via our free will. According to what we set our minds on.
    This is my understanding after years of research on how we are to scripturaly ACCESS the Holy Spirit in order to hear HIS voice.

    We abide, by our own free will in either God’s Spirit or Satan’s spirit.

    Galatians 5:24
    And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

    The flesh (sin via Satan’s spirit ) is motivated by and experienced by its particular set of evil ‘passions’.

    Our passions are the evidence of which Spirit / spirit our heart is full of at any particular time.

    Humans are very unaware on how intrinsically interwoven we are with the spirit realm. They are also unaware that it is the Holy Spirit Who convicts the world of right from wrong through our conscience.

    David Marsh

  173. DeWayne Sep 24th 2012

    I am not certain what you think I said or posted, but we are sent out into the world as witness of the Lord to disciple nations. Do not under rate the church Christ has established, nor the power and authority, what it binds on earth is bound in heaven, what loosened on earth is loosened in heaven.

    I’ve posted many time certainly once here, that it is within the will and purpose of God that the individual and church is to fulfill, of which God calls works of righteousness…for which is reward. I do not recall the orig dialog that may have been directed to you, but you are wrong if believing I believe anything of man’s will and purpose is what God desires… except our love.

  174. DeWayne Sep 24th 2012

    Praise the Lord… He said “Pick up your cross and follow me.” I you/we/us if having not suffered, have no idea what others may be going through. How often does ‘well done good and faiful servant’ want the Lord to take us home (now)? I believe mine was about an hour ago… less the good and faithful servant part.

  175. David Marsh Sep 24th 2012

    I neglected to mention that I am in total agreement with your understanding that ‘good’ in our heart – at any point in time – IS the Holy Spirit.

    Conversley, when evil is in our heart, that is when our heart is filled with Satan’s spirit.

    I was simply expanding on what you said.

    God bless

    David Marsh.

  176. Dunamis Sep 24th 2012


    I KNOW that the Father loves me; Jesus loves me; and the Holy Spirit loves me.
    MANY PEOPLE believe that deep within their heart…..and yet they still do their OWN WILL.

    The scriptures tell us the truth about the Human Nature.
    The Human Nature is INCAPABLE of returning Holy Love to its MAKER.

    I have no idea what kind of love you are talking about, but the scriptures state that the BOTTOM LINE REASON for any of us committing sin is THIS:


    That is the NATURE of every man, woman, and child.

  177. Dunamis Sep 24th 2012

    David Marsh

    A bond servant SURRENDERS their FREE WILL to their LORD AND MASTER.


    It is called JUDGMENT.

    And then there’s the Apostle Paul; Peter; King Nebuchadnezzar

    Dan 4:33 KJV – The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles’ [feathers], and his nails like birds’ [claws].

    Dan 4:35 KJV – And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

    Act 9:1 KJV – And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

    Act 9:2 KJV – And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

    Act 9:3 KJV – And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

    Act 9:4 KJV – And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

    Act 9:5 KJV – And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

    Act 9:6 KJV – And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

  178. I wonder sometimes if we too much for our own good.
    Part of the result of the fall of man is to acquire knowledge,wisdom, etc. not of God but about the things of this world and the things about God. The purpose of man is to have a heart that seeks after God to know God (relationship).
    Bible knowledge is good but Bible knowledge by itself will destroy for the Bible is meant to be understood in the eyes of its author, God Himself.
    I live in a generation whose knowledge is destroying it for in its heart has sought to please himself rather than God, seeks to satisfy Himself rather than God.
    It is a hard thing to learn that God doesn’t give what we want or believe or have faith for but expects us to do what He wants, under His leadership, by His wisdom, trusting and depending on Him alone.
    It is a hard thing to admit that what we know is but foolishness in God’s eyes, yet it is the most precious thing in ours and so we live out of knowledge rather than out of God. We live in a world bound in sin and deception, it isn’t our knowledge that keeps us safe but our obedience to God that does.

  179. Foolhardy Fred Sep 24th 2012

    2 Timothy 3:16-17
    King James Version (KJV)
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    2 Timothy 2:15

    Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

  180. Foolhardy Fred Sep 24th 2012

    1 Corinthians 11:2

    I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.
    1 Corinthians 16:13 Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong.

    2 Thessalonians 3:6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.
    Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

  181. Foolhardy Fred Sep 24th 2012

    As the Bible clearly says for and of itself faithfulness to the Word of God as provided for us in the BIBLE is what God requires above ALL else.

    The Holy Spirit has been sent to empower us to live in accordance with His Word – How do we know He is the Holy Spirit and NOT a demonic counterfeit – by HIS conformity to the Word of God.

  182. David Marsh. Sep 24th 2012

    Foolhardy Fred,
    Are you aware that the scritures clearly explain how to Locate, Access, Recognise and Discern what is the holy Spirit voice of God?

    David Marsh.

  183. A common mistake made with those that are new Christians or filled with the Spirit is that they have all the answers to everything not knowing that the Spirit of God will keep things hidden from us so that our dependency is not in us but in God.
    The Holy Spirit seeks to develop in us Christ like humility and humility that says God knows more than me, God is greater than I for He made me. Christ ranks higher than I so that I may never boast of what I know or can do for without Him I can do or know nothing.
    How many of us have not matured because we are unwilling to let go of what we know and go through the difficult times to learn how trustworthy God is?
    For then answer given tell the tale how much we know how empty the heart.

  184. watchful Sep 24th 2012

    There is the aspect of growing and BEING conformed to His will…..the Pharisees had knowledge of the scriptures above everyone else and they obeyed what they thought they knew, and yet how they fell short, and how their obedience only fed their pride and self-righteousness. There is good reason why we will lay our crowns at Jesus’ feet……because we will know we don’t deserve them, and that it will only be because of His grace and working in our lives that we have any chance of making it. We can’t even understand the scriptures without Him, much less are able to keep them……..this is the lesson that the Law was to teach us and yet still think we are capable of keeping His commands. No more than we are capable of loving in truth and selflessly.

  185. watchful Sep 24th 2012

    ….the words of Jesus, “if you love me you will keep my commands” is a CALL to be conformed to His will, it doesn’t happen overnight but is something that grows and increases in us as we continue to carry our crosses and follow Him. His very words are meant to reveal our inability….so that we will turn to Him in our weakness.

  186. Matthew 3

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    3 It was during those days that Yochanan the Immerser arrived in the desert of Y’hudah and began proclaiming the message, 2 “Turn from your sins to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near!” 3 This is the man Yesha‘yahu was talking about when he said,

    “The voice of someone crying out:
    ‘In the desert prepare the way of Adonai!
    Make straight paths for him!’”[a]

    4 Yochanan wore clothes of camel’s hair with a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 People went out to him from Yerushalayim, from all Y’hudah, and from the whole region around the Yarden. 6 Confessing their sins, they were immersed by him in the Yarden River.

    7 But when Yochanan saw many of the P’rushim and Tz’dukim coming to be immersed by him, he said to them, “You snakes! Who warned you to escape the coming punishment? 8 If you have really turned from your sins to God, produce fruit that will prove it! 9 And don’t suppose you can comfort yourselves by saying, ‘Avraham is our father’! For I tell you that God can raise up for Avraham sons from these stones! 10 Already the axe is at the root of the trees, ready to strike; every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown in the fire! 11 It’s true that I am immersing you in water so that you might turn from sin to God; but the one coming after me is more powerful than I — I’m not worthy even to carry his sandals — and he will immerse you in the Ruach HaKodesh and in fire. 12 He has with him his winnowing fork; and he will clear out his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn but burning up the straw with unquenchable fire!”

    13 Then Yeshua came from the Galil to the Yarden to be immersed by Yochanan.

  187. When one has suffered with what the world calls lack of attention it is a humbling thing to discover the desire of attention is the culprit not the lack of it. Wanting attention is like the Pharisees doing things to get a reward. God’s degree is simple he who humbles himself will be exalted but he who exalts himself will be humbled. Oh how we love a reward and hate when the reward is not coming and will do everything possible to get it, blaming everyone for withholding what we think is ours.
    Consider the work we do in the Lord as having no reward for the honour of the work we do goes to the Master and not to us. It is up to the Master to give credit to His servants not for the servants to work in order to get it. So greedy have we become for being noticed and receiving attention that we can’t see beyond what we want.

  188. If you choose to love Jesus you will listen to Him , believe Him and obey all that He tells you to do. The person who chooses not to love the Lord will not obey, does not believe what Jesus says and they refuse to listen to Jesus.The one who does not choose to love Jesus will not know The Fathers love in their heart.

    John 14:23-25

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    23 Jesus answered, If a person [really] loves Me, he will keep My word [obey My teaching]; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home (abode, special dwelling place) with him.

    24 Anyone who does not [really] love Me does not observe and obey My teaching. And the teaching which you hear and heed is not Mine, but [comes] from the Father Who sent Me.

    25 I have told you these things while I am still with you.

  189. Hebrews 1

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    1 In days gone by, God spoke in many and varied ways to the Fathers through the prophets. 2 But now, in the acharit-hayamim, he has spoken to us through his Son, to whom he has given ownership of everything and through whom he created the universe. 3 This Son is the radiance of the Sh’khinah, the very expression of God’s essence, upholding all that exists by his powerful word; and after he had, through himself, made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of HaG’dulah BaM’romim.[a]

    4 So he has become much better than angels, and the name God has given him is superior to theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

    “You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father”?[b]

    Also, God never said of any angel,

    “I will be his Father,
    and he will be my Son.”[c]

    6 And again, when God brings his Firstborn into the world, he says,

    “Let all God’s angels worship him.”[d]

    7 Indeed, when speaking of angels, he says,

    “. . . who makes his angels winds
    and his servants fiery flames”;[e]

    8 but to the Son, he says,

    “Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever;
    you rule your Kingdom with a scepter of equity;
    9 you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
    Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you
    with the oil of joy in preference to your companions”;[f]

    10 and,

    “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth;
    heaven is the work of your hands.
    11 They will vanish, but you will remain;
    like clothing, they will all grow old;
    12 and you will fold them up like a coat.
    Yes, they will be changed like clothing,
    but you remain the same,
    your years will never end.”[g]

    13 Moreover, to which of the angels has he ever said,

    “Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?[h]

    14 Aren’t they all merely spirits who serve, sent out to help those whom God will deliver?

  190. Nice to know scriptures but are we living it and walking in it or do we do what we know for we will be judge by what we do rather than what we know

  191. watchful Sep 24th 2012

    Yes, Jeff, but still somehow we need to reconcile those things with the fact that all our works are as filthy rags. This He reveals and proves to us along the way. We cannot know our own deceitfully wicked hearts otherwise.

  192. Luke 24:45-49

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    45 Then He [thoroughly] opened up their minds to understand the Scriptures,

    46 And said to them, Thus it is written that the Christ (the Messiah) should suffer and on the third day rise from ([a] among) the dead,

    47 And that repentance [with a view to and as the condition of] forgiveness of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

    48 You are witnesses of these things.

    49 And behold, I will send forth upon you what My Father has promised; but remain in the city [Jerusalem] until you are clothed with power from on high.

    Acts 1

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    1 Dear Theophilos:

    In the first book, I wrote about everything Yeshua set out to do and teach, 2 until the day when, after giving instructions through the Ruach HaKodesh to the emissaries whom he had chosen, he was taken up into heaven.

    3 After his death he showed himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. During a period of forty days they saw him, and he spoke with them about the Kingdom of God.

    4 At one of these gatherings, he instructed them not to leave Yerushalayim but to wait for “what the Father promised, which you heard about from me. 5 For Yochanan used to immerse people in water; but in a few days, you will be immersed in the Ruach HaKodesh!”

    6 When they were together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore self-rule to Isra’el?” 7 He answered, “You don’t need to know the dates or the times; the Father has kept these under his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Ruach HaKodesh comes upon you; you will be my witnesses both in Yerushalayim and in all Y’hudah and Shomron, indeed to the ends of the earth!”

  193. watchful Sep 24th 2012

    ….even obedience is a thing that we don’t come by naturally, it must be learned, as Jesus learned, by the things which we suffer…….the fire..?

  194. We can be good humans, bad humans, failed humans, excellent humans we can change our behaviour from bad to good and still be humans. Humanity is not good enough for God no matter what we do to change we can only produce what humans can produce. A sinner can only produce sin nothing more nothing less. Work can’t change it, works cannot produce one ounce of righteous good enough for God to accept. Our whole society has based its thinking on making good humans and the best humans can do is produce sin. When we finally acknowledge before God we aren’t good enough to be saved do we have victory over sin for then we learn to live out of God’s mercy instead of our own efforts and knowledge. This is the message of the cross all I am good enough for is death, yet God in His mercy provides His Son as our salvation to be delivered out of death. Salvation is not by works lest any man should boast, walking in salvation is not by works lest any man should boast. I live by depending on Christ not on myself.

  195. Acts 10:34-48

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    34 Then Kefa addressed them: “I now understand that God does not play favorites, 35 but that whoever fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him, no matter what people he belongs to.

    36 “Here is the message that he sent to the sons of Isra’el announcing shalom through Yeshua the Messiah, who is Lord of everything. 37 You know what has been going on throughout Y’hudah, starting from the Galil after the immersion that Yochanan proclaimed; 38 how God anointed Yeshua from Natzeret with the Ruach HaKodesh and with power; how Yeshua went about doing good and healing all the people oppressed by the Adversary, because God was with him.

    39 “As for us, we are witnesses of everything he did, both in the Judean countryside and in Yerushalayim. They did away with him by hanging him on a stake;[a] 40 but God raised him up on the third day and let him be seen, 41 not by all the people, but by witnesses God had previously chosen, that is, by us, who ate and drank with him after he had risen again from the dead.

    42 “Then he commanded us to proclaim and attest to the Jewish people that this man has been appointed by God to judge the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets bear witness to him, that everyone who puts his trust in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

    44 Kefa was still saying these things when the Ruach HaKodesh fell on all who were hearing the message. 45 All the believers from the Circumcision faction who had accompanied Kefa were amazed that the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh was also being poured out 46 on the Goyim, for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Kefa’s response was, 47 “Is anyone prepared to prohibit these people from being immersed in water? After all, they have received the Ruach HaKodesh, just as we did.” 48 And he ordered that they be immersed in the name of Yeshua the Messiah. Then they asked Kefa to stay on with them for a few days.

  196. In Acts 10 already quoted refers to Peter’s understanding of his vision that God gave him please do not scriptures to prove your point of view For in then context of the verse quoted it is Peter’s acknowledgement that the gentiles were also granted eternal life in Christ. The verse have nothing to do with man’s goodness but God’s mercy.

  197. John 16

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    16 I have told you all these things, so that you should not be offended (taken unawares and falter, or be caused to stumble and fall away). [I told you to keep you from being scandalized and repelled.]

    2 They will put you out of (expel you from) the synagogues; but an hour is coming when whoever kills you will think and claim that he has offered service to God.

    3 And they will do this because they have not known the Father or Me.

    4 But I have told you these things now, so that when they occur you will remember that I told you of them. I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you.

    5 But now I am going to Him Who sent Me, yet none of you asks Me, Where are You going?

    6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your hearts [taken complete possession of them].

    7 However, I am telling you nothing but the truth when I say it is profitable (good, expedient, advantageous) for you that I go away. Because if I do not go away, the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Advocate, Intercessor, Strengthener, Standby) will not come to you [into close fellowship with you]; but if I go away, I will send Him to you [to be in close fellowship with you].

    8 And when He comes, He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about sin and about righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about judgment:

    9 About sin, because they do not believe in Me [trust in, rely on, and adhere to Me];

    10 About righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God), because I go to My Father, and you will see Me no longer;

    11 About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world [Satan] is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him.

    12 I have still many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them or to take them upon you or to grasp them now.

    13 But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].

    14 He will honor and glorify Me, because He will take of (receive, draw upon) what is Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you.

    15 Everything that the Father has is Mine. That is what I meant when I said that He [the Spirit] will take the things that are Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you.

  198. debylynne Sep 24th 2012

    Simon said:
    “The purpose of man is to have a heart that seeks after God to know God (relationship).
    Bible knowledge is good but Bible knowledge by itself will destroy for the Bible is meant to be understood in the eyes of its author, God Himself.
    As the Bible clearly says for and of itself faithfulness to the Word of God as provided for us in the BIBLE is what God requires above ALL else.”

    yes, and amen simon. there are MANY who ‘know’ the scriptures front and back, but do NOT know the ‘heart’ of the One who gave them and so, they use His Word to ‘destroy’ – not to strengthen and build up and transform.

    Foolhardy Fred said:
    “The Holy Spirit has been sent to empower us to live in accordance with His Word – How do we know He is the Holy Spirit and NOT a demonic counterfeit – by HIS conformity to the Word of God.”

    dear foolhardy fred – THIS is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH – this is where so many many many have gone astray and are now walking deeply in deception – they are following ‘spirits’ but NOT the Holy Spirit – merciful God – please OPEN THEIR EYES to Your Word, as you did for me, that they might SEE the lies for what they are…

    again Simon said:
    “The Holy Spirit seeks to develop in us Christ like humility and humility that says God knows more than me, God is greater than I for He made me. Christ ranks higher than I so that I may never boast of what I know or can do for without Him I can do or know nothing.”

    oh, simon, this speaks to my heart – this is SO very very true – and after almost 50 years of supposedly ‘being a Christian’ i see more clearly every day how i have fallen short of LIVING in this truth, even though i recognize the absoluteness of it in every fiber of my being – i see in myself continually the ‘tendency’ to ‘trust in my own self’……

    watchful said:
    “There is good reason why we will lay our crowns at Jesus’ feet……because we will know we don’t deserve them, and that it will only be because of His grace and working in our lives that we have any chance of making it. We can’t even understand the scriptures without Him, much less are able to keep them……..this is the lesson that the Law was to teach us and yet still think we are capable of keeping His commands. No more than we are capable of loving in truth and selflessly.
    ….the words of Jesus, “if you love me you will keep my commands” is a CALL to be conformed to His will, it doesn’t happen overnight but is something that grows and increases in us as we continue to carry our crosses and follow Him. His very words are meant to reveal our inability….so that we will turn to Him in our weakness.”

    watchful – you have put the TRUTH that others on here are ‘proclaiming’ in perspective for me – we DO fall short, but PRAISE GOD, it IS an ‘ongoing work IN us’. sometimes when i read what some have posted i can feel almost ‘hopeless’ because they are SO adamant in what is ‘required’ of us and, yet, ‘we all stumble in many things'(james 3:2) even while WANTING to please Him and NOT fail Him – but, if we could but truly SEE what He has ‘wrought in us’ throughout the years that we have walked with Him – i think our hearts would be less likely to ‘despair’ over OUR failures – and HOPE MORE GREATLY in HIS power and ability to TRANSFORM us in our ongoing journey.

    JeffM said:
    “If you choose to love Jesus you will listen to Him , believe Him and obey all that He tells you to do. The person who chooses not to love the Lord will not obey, does not believe what Jesus says and they refuse to listen to Jesus.The one who does not choose to love Jesus will not know The Fathers love in their heart.”

    Jeff – amen – the words of the LORD ‘if you love Me, you will obey Me’ – there is no denying this absolute truth – but, BLESS THE LORD, even in this, we learn ‘as we go’ – NOT ONE of us obeys the Lord PERFECTLY – but we LEARN and are CHANGED by His indwelling Spirit and we DO ‘mature’ if we ‘hold fast’ and press on with Him. i think the REAL sorrow is that so many THINK they are ‘Christians’ and, yet, care NOT AT ALL whether they are ‘obeying’ the Lord of not – i fear they ARE deceived in believing that they are ‘born again’. true born again believers WANT to please Him and seek to obey Him and be ‘led of the Spirit’ but STILL ‘miss the mark’ at times – and it is a sorrow and a grief to them when they do……..humbling…..and that changes us, as well – perhaps more than any other thing???

    thank you all – i came in here this a.m. and read all these many posts and found so MUCH that spoke to me and challenged me and comforted me.

    the Lord bless you

  199. There is nothing that God can’t fix, nothing that cannot be changed. Over the last decades there has been a mindset
    that the church has failed beyond repair. God is able to repair what is beyond repair, God is able to raise a fallen church. The doom sayers have it wrong, our understanding of these matters is wrong for God will again build His church and again there will be joy.

  200. John S Sep 24th 2012

    America only provides a two party system dominated by corporate and financial institutions. It has failed in the past and will fail once again. I cannot see much change between the Republics or the Democratics heirarchies.
    The UK has predominately a three party system where the electrate has been betrayed by broken promises time and time again and of course Big Business having its say on policy. Just look at the Murdoch media empire switching its alliance when it cannot get its own way.
    The European Union is totally corrupt and greedy. Again controlled by the elect.
    Communism and Fascism is rising from the ashes once again with militant Islam taking a strangehold in many countries
    This has become the way for the 21st century and won’t change due to dishouring Almighty God, discrediting the Word of God, and mocking our Creator.
    The christian church has lost its way and going nowhere except into deception and entertaining false teaching and prophecies.
    Many in church leadership no longer preach the Gospel message but instead water down scripture to suit themselves.
    Christianity has been replaced by churchianity where anything now goes.
    So what is missing which is evident to the Body of Christ. That word once again and the meaning of salvation which is REPENTANCE.
    If people cannot see the wood from the trees, and folk refuse to act upon His Word and instructions, then the bllod is upon their shoulders.
    Scripture can be quoted to encourage both christian and non christian to seek Him while they can. It all depends if folk have a contrite heart to receive the Lord Jesus Christ.
    May this word be of encouragement to all viewing this web site
    God bless and Shalom…

    Hiscoming Ministries

    A Thought for This Lord’s Day

    “I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not; if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?” John 5:43-44

    I am very suspicious of ministries that are named after the person who founded them. You know the sort of thing I am referring to – “Peter Jones Ministries” (I made that one up) and such like. They receive honour from men. It’s a man’s name that is being honoured with such titles rather than the name of Jesus. Very often, these ministries become very popular and very big, and the founder / minister, placed upon a pedestal by their followers. They are ‘coming in their own name, and men receive them!”

    I also hate to see clergy in their clerical garb, making themselves stand out from the rest of their congregation. This ‘two tier’ Church system, clergy & laity
    started to creep into the Church in the very early days. Men wanted to be noticed. It is mentioned in the letters to the seven Churches in Revelation 2. The Church at Ephesus had them creeping in, called the deeds of the Nicolaitanes (V6) The true Church at Ephesus hated it, but it really made headway at the Church at Pergamos (V15) and Jesus Himself said “Which thing I hate” The title of Reverend, which so many take for themselves is a name given to God.

    “He sent redemption unto His people: He hath commanded His covenant forever: holy and reverend is His name” Psalm 111:9

    Man, wanting to make a name for himself, takes the name and attributes of God for himself! Jesus, was exactly the opposite, He came as a servant, to serve but not to rule over others.

    “For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many” Mark 10:45

    When Jesus walked upon this earth, He was rejected by the majority.

    “He came unto His own, and His own received Him not” John 1:11

    But, although rejected by men “…God hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name” Philippians 2:9, and one day every knee will have to bow to Him, King of kings and Lord of lords. (verses 10-11)

    I received many greetings and well wishes, on the occasion of my 65th birthday in August. Some of you said some very lovely things about me. I am naturally very pleased, blessed and encouraged by your messages. But, I have to be very careful that my ego doesn’t get puffed up with pride. I am very aware that without Jesus, I couldn’t do anything (John 15:5)

    We all need encouraging, and it’s good to encourage each other, we just need to keep ourselves in check, and ensure that we give all glory to God, for it is He who works through us.

    “And He said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God” Luke 16:15

    All this ‘seeking the applause and honour of men’ will come to a head when the antichrist is revealed. He will seek and even command the honour and worship of men. I believe it is he of whom Jesus was referring to in our opening verses – “if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.”

    “….and all the world wondered after the beast, and they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast, and they worshipped the beast saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?” Revelation 13:3b-4

    Let’s strive to be ‘God seeking’ and not ‘self seeking’ Let’s strive to put Him first in all things and to give Him glory and honour. May we never give glory or worship to any mere man, but do all in our power to exalt the mighty name of Jesus!

    Brotherly love….Pastor Keith

  201. We look at a failed church failed government for that is all men can do. Ever since Adam failed God by his disobedience all men can do is fail.
    For sin always leads to death and failure it is the result of man’s fall.
    It is the church abandoning of this principal that has caused so much pain.
    Since everyone has everything figured out about tomorrow why should we then need God to hope in?
    It reminds me of a psalm were David writes of not putting trust in chariots or in men but in God. Why then do we trust in men that will fail? Their wisdom and their understanding?
    The need change in the church is simple abandon the world’s understanding of who men are, we men come from, what men are capable of, the goodness of men
    and simply accept the fact in everything men will fail, his wisdom is incomplete and is subject to man’s pride.
    Until this “I” business or what “I” can do is gone from the church nothing will change.
    May God grant us eyes to see what we have fallen into that we may repent.

  202. debylynne Sep 24th 2012

    yes, brother simon, yes. God CAN.

    dear john s. – the LORD has ALWAYS had a remnant – has He not?? i agree with so much of what you have said here – and, yet…..we MUST have HOPE that ‘whatever the details as to HOW He does it’ – the LORD will ‘make a way…..i simply CANNOT ‘throw out hope’ that there is YET ‘good to come’ – that there WILL be an ‘end time harvest’ – that we are called to RESIST evil to the best of our understanding in what is going on around us……’having done ALL – stand’ – we each must decide how the LORD is leading us to do just that – resist evil and STAND…..
    thank you for the post from pastor keith – a true and searching word.

    two scriptures have been going through my mind this morning as i have read the different posts and have had to deal with feelings of conviction, comfort, encouragement and even condemnation….

    Philippians 1
    3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you WILL complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; (my emphasis added)

    2 Timothy 1
    12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

    ‘my hope is built on nothing LESS, than JESUS’ blood and righteousness….i dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on JESUS’ name……on CHRIST THE SOLID ROCK I STAND, ALL OTHER GROUND IS SINKING SAND….all other ground is sinking sand.’

    HE is EVERYTHING – the SUBSTANCE – NOT the shadow……


    God Is Doing a New Thing in His Church

    By David Wilkerson
    This brings us to the church of the present day. Let me ask you: is what you see going on in the church today representative of who Jesus is? Consider all the denominations and movements, everything associated with Christ’s name. Is what we’re seeing truly the church triumphant, the spotless bride of Christ? Does it reveal to a lost world the very nature of God? Is this the best that God’s Spirit can produce in these last days?

    Or, has the modern-day visible church become the old thing? Has it become defiled, teetering on the very brink of being replaced by some new work? In short, will God make a change one last time before Jesus returns? Will he abandon what has become corrupt, and raise up a final, glorious church?

    Yes, I believe he will. Isaiah tells us, “Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them” (Isaiah 42:9).

  204. We have been taught man’s greatest need is to know that he is loved, that is not true the greatest need of man is to know that God is faithful and trustworthy. It is whom we depend upon that dictates the outcome.
    This is why scripture places emphasis on true worship, the fear of God and the holiness of God. Only God is trustworthy as revealed by His son. Why then do we depend on men who make mistakes? The folly of man is that he thinks others will be impressed by what he knows or can do but that is a facade he creates for himself and others are not impressed and will do everything to prove you wrong.

  205. debylynne Sep 25th 2012

    because i know ‘brother david’ and what he taught and believed, i DO believe what he has spoken here…..

    but, i also ‘struggle’ with the term ‘new thing’ because that has been the ‘NEW REVELATION CRY’ of the NAR and the whole charismania IHOP out there ‘kansas city prophet’ and ‘morningstar group’ – that THEY are the ‘new thing’ God is doing!!

    i suppose if i had my way, i wouldn’t refer to it as a ‘new thing’ but rather GOD IS RESTORING WHAT THE LOCUST HAS EATEN AND THE CANKERWORM HAS DESTROYED…..a ‘restoration work’ rather than a ‘new thing’ perhaps???

    having said that, i LONG to see this happen – sometimes i simply ACHE ACHE ACHE for fellowship with true CHRISTIANS and not simply ‘church people’……i know a FEW, but would love to be in close contact with MANY……that we would ‘encourage’ each other in the faith and that NOTHING would be more important to us that JESUS CHRIST and what mattered to His heart…..

    i spent several years in a ‘house church’ many years ago in new england. there were some ‘problems’ but there was MUCH good in it and for us, i think it made a real difference whether we would stand or fall – the LORD used them GREATLY in our lives. there are times when i absolutely LONG for a return to those ‘radical roots’ where our entire lives were centered on ‘Jesus Christ and Him crucified’ – everything, simply everything was about Him……we didn’t have a lot of ‘wisdom’ and we NEEDED it, but, we were sold out – yes, we were….

    those were the days of ‘keith green’ and the like……amen and amen.

  206. Andrew Sep 25th 2012

    Sad that the whole concept of a “new thing” has been hijacked by the NAR.

    But it is a “God idea” in the first place –

    and I expect it to happen.



  207. Andrew , the Holy Spirit will leave the NAR crowd and they won’t even notice that He is gone. Jesus will build His Church, nothing can stop Him. All glory goes to Christ because He has done it all.

  208. Gareth Sep 25th 2012

    Thank you John S over what you mentioned and especially what you shared by enclosing an encouraging word from Pastor Keith. It is very true on what both of you conveyed.
    I was asked this this evening what watch a programme on God TV which was led by a so called a woman prophetess. It was called God Knows TV. She was called Cindy Jacobs. She told viewers that she had been anointed by God to prophecy on television and viewers were expected to listen to her. She was going to prophesy into peoples lives and they were expected to receive revelation through her because of her anointing.
    When she began, this was where I switched off. A false prophet was about to get attention then followed by viewers to send their monies to her organisation.
    What utter tripe! But a serious matter for the werstern church to consider. However, this part and parcel of acceptable practices for the christian church. But not biblical and mocks our Heavenly Father for false prophets like her and more of her associates on christian tv channels do this as a common practice making themselves God’s personal assistants and business managers.
    With so called tv evangelists claims in the past of them having meetings with important politicians from all over the world and especially in American, did they ever call them to that avoiding word again called REPENTANCE? If they hob knobed with such politicians, what actually did they talk about? Why were these meetings not reported by what was said and their contents? Or was it just a ploy by these tv envangelists to get attention and to show how important people they were so that to extend their empires for financial reasons. And why? Because viewers don’t hear anything about meetings with important politicians anymore? Not a dicky bird! Hmmm…no longer news worthy or a prayfull consideration. Have made their money with more money to roll into their banks accounts as their programmes are broadcasted in christian tv stations.
    It will be very interesting indeed how the presidental campaign for the Whitehouse is reported on by these tv channels and what recommendations will be made whom their viewers to vote for the next president of the United States of America, and how fear will be used for a conclusive result. This is typical of the American christian church when they are expected to chose between trhe two party system with the emphasis of voting for the lesser of the two evils.
    May it be suggested that nothing will ever get better when corporate financial instutions and big businness run the United States of America and the two party system. For corruption, greed, and power and control are the ruling giants. Almighty God has no say or is invited to say anything from His written Word, the Bible.
    And of course, the dreaded word called REPENTANCE which has already been mentioned on this web site, is not on any political parties agenda, to include the 21st century modern christian church.
    Where are today’s John the Baptists? Where are the true prophets of God Almighty prclaiming His Word and instructions? Where are the shepherds who are supposingly looking after the sheep?
    Who in America are prepared to lay down their lives for Christ and for their brothers and sisters in Christ?
    There is a lot of talk but not much action despite the Lord Jesus Christ enlightening those claiming to be His followers to go into the world to preach the Gospel message.
    They prefer other people to do their work for them while they indulge of playing a game called religion whereby they expect a blessing from God when giving their money to charlatans who call themselves tv evangelists. Arm chair christians who fail to get off their backsides at home and sit in church pews at organised church meetings.
    Politicians and self righteous religious persons do not not save people. The Lord Jesus Christ saves the souls of people by His precious blood shed at Calvery.

  209. debylynne Sep 25th 2012

    JeffM – amen and amen
    and yes, andrew, it WILL happen, in Jesus’ name.

    i ponder on the ‘hebrides revival’ a lot. i’ve prayed MUCH for the Spirit of the Lord to fall on ‘this’ place and ‘this’ people here in the ‘buckle’ of the bible belt…..everyone around here THINKS they ‘know’ all about Jesus and all about ‘Christianity’ which is really for the most part, simply ‘CHURCHianity’….it is VERY VERY hard to make an ‘inroad’ when sharing the Gospel because they THINK they already know and MANY of them believe they are ‘on their way to heaven’ because they ‘went forward’ and ‘got baptized’ once upon a time….and to a GREAT extent, that was the ‘begining AND the end’ of it…..

    i LONG for the convicting power of the HOLY SPIRIT to cover this place – for men and women and children to fall down in GODLY SORROW AND REPENTANCE and get up TRANSFORMED – made alive – made new…….

    i pray for this. when my husband speaks at ‘church gatherings’ the ONE thing he always brings up is how he WANTS SO BADLY to see people’s lives CHANGED by the power of the Holy Spirit – AWAY with these ‘mental assents’ – AWAY with ‘church membership’ – we NEED to be TRANSFORMED – BORN AGAIN – MADE ALIVE – MADE NEW and our lives WILL show this IF we truly are.

    here in this place we literally DROWN in people who think that ‘church attendance’, ‘church membership’, ‘getting baptized in water’ is the end all and be all of what it takes to be a ‘christian’…..we see people over and over NEVER change – never – they continue just as they are and ‘think’ they are ‘just fine’ and, i don’t know what the rest of you deal with but THIS is perhaps the HARDEST thing to come up against – by ‘hardest’ i mean, they CANNOT hear what you are SAYING – they hear everything through the ‘deceptive filter’ that they are FINE. the ‘once saved always saved’ camp is perhaps the most disheartening of all to deal with.

    that is why i LONG for the Spirit of the Lord to fall on this place – that the CONVICTING power of God would ‘cut through’ all the lies….

  210. Dunamis Sep 25th 2012

    The Holy Spirit DWELLS INSIDE of those born again.

    It is the DUNAMIS POWER of the Holy Spirit dwelling INSIDE people that brings what you are yearning for.

    So you say you are born of God…..born again?

    Where’s your DUNAMIS POWER that CONVICTS people of their sin to the point of weeping in Godly sorrow and Repentance???

    Where’s your DUNAMIS POWER that HEALS people’s broken hearts?

    Where’s your DUNAMIS POWER that DELIVERS people from the bondage of sins??

    Why are you looking UP IN THE SKY FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT TO COME???

    The Holy Spirit HAS ALREADY COME!! He came at Pentecost 2000 years ago!

    He dwells INSIDE, NOT OUTSIDE, of you……IF you have Him at all.

    The EVIDENCE of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is NOT speaking in another language, commonly called by the religious….”tongues”.


    Act 1:8 NASB – BUT YOU WILL RECEIVE POWER (DUNAMIS) WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS COME UPON YOU; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

  211. Dunamis Sep 25th 2012

    Many of the revivalists and the healing preachers in the past, ever since Pentecost, HAD THE DUNAMIS POWER to bring REFORMATION, REPENTANCE, HEALING, AND REVIVAL to the people.


    You….all ……who “CLAIM” to be born again and filled with the Holy Spirit are SUPPOSE TO LIVE THIS OUT.

    What shame when we come before the LORD and He states that you did not even FULFILL the MINIMUM obedience to Him…….much less NOT BEING ABLE TO SERVE HIM BECAUSE OF NO DUNAMIS POWER.

  212. Dunamis, are you sharing that these things (THE DUNAMIS POWER to bring REFORMATION, REPENTANCE, HEALING, AND REVIVAL to the people), follow you..?

    I would be interested to know, are you in the midst of revival, repentance and healing..?

  213. Dunamis Sep 25th 2012

    All the church has done for centuries is WHINE AND CRY about the CONDITION OF THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS THAT THEY LIVE IN.

    All the church has done for centuries is try to figure out a way of making the Kingdom of Darkness that they live in MORE COMFORTABLE FOR THEM TO LIVE IN.

    ELECT THIS PIOUS PERSON; PASS THIS PIOUS LAW; throw those people in prison; pass more laws; elect more religious people…..blah blah blah.

    When the scriptures that these same people like to quote from state that they were TO BECOME THE IMAGE OF GOD ON EARTH.


    NOT from the outside with more laws, prison, doctors, psychiatrists.

    You think the world is a horrendous dark mess and filled with the Anti-Christ spirit?


  214. I praise God and shout for joy, give Him thanks for His work (through you), if this is happening..

  215. Dunamis Sep 25th 2012


    Oh yes I am….and so are many others all over the world.

    What? Are you looking for 3000 for proof?

    When was the last time you had 10 teenage boys born again…..not do the sinner’s prayer…but transformed in weeping and repentance? In front of each other in a group?

    How about in half and hours time??

    Come on Roger…..who is it that needs to SEE IN ORDER TO BELIEVE?

    Read your bible….THERE IS THE PROOF.


  216. Dunamis – I have read and do understand the power of Lord Jesus Christ, given us, through the Holy Spirit.

    I repeat, “I praise God and shout for joy”, even more so at your testimony.. ten souls saved, ten repenting, weeping, and receiving the truth that Christ Jesus is their Saviour and their Lord. Ten filled with the Holy Spirit, regenerated, born-again..

    Hallelujah, Praise God, thank you Lord Jesus.. \O/

    I may not have seen physically, but I do believe..

    Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


    Thankyou for sharing this with us Dunamis :-)

  217. Dunamis Sep 25th 2012

    The religious want to blah blah their way to transformation.

    From the OUTSIDE working through the CARNAL MIND OF A CORRUPT HUMAN NATURE.

    Does that even make sense?

    Jesus walked in Dunamis Power; The apostles walked in Dunamis Power.

    Miracles and transformation HAPPENED.


    Nothing but a lot of blah blah blah…….

    I have been that religious blah blah blah person ….NOTHING HAPPENED IN 30 YEARS.

    NOW….try 30 minutes or LESS. How long does it take you to read THIS?






    Act 2:22 NASB – “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know–

    Act 2:23 NASB – this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

    Act 2:24 NASB – ” But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.





    Act 2:29 NASB – ” Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

    Act 2:30 NASB – “And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,

    Act 2:31 NASB – he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.

    Act 2:32 NASB – “This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

    Act 2:33 NASB – “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

    Act 2:34 NASB – “For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,


    Act 2:36 NASB – “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”

    Act 2:37 NASB – Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, ” Brethren, what shall we do?”

    Act 2:38 NASB – Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Act 2:39 NASB – “For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

    Act 2:40 NASB – And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, ” Be saved from this perverse generation!”

    Act 2:41 NASB – So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

    THAT’S how much blah blah blah was needed for 3000 people to come to repentance and be transformed when the person speaking has DUNAMIS POWER.

    (you notice that Peter did not speak to the 3000 in tongues)

  218. Dunamis Sep 25th 2012

    How many of you have spent days, weeks, months, years, talking and talking and talking to the same people about the Lord and NOTHING HAPPENS??

    Because ONLY the Holy Spirit’s Dunamis Power will bring change…..NOT TALKING PEOPLE TO DEATH.

  219. debylynne Sep 25th 2012

    dunamis – i’m so glad that my openess about my heart and what we are dealing with here gave you such a WONDERFUL platform to display your great blessing on…….i hope and pray that what you are experiencing is REAL and WILL remain.

  220. Dunamis Sep 25th 2012

    Of course you do sweetie.

    This has been happening regularly for 7 years now…ever since Father got rid of the LIES THAT I HAD BEEN FED AND BELIEVED.


    I don’t suppose you read the earlier posts from me and Simon. THAT IS WHERE DUNAMIS BEGINS.

  221. debylynne Sep 25th 2012

    yes, as a matter of fact, i did read them. what you are saying is TRUTH, but, your ‘manner’ of saying it conveys, dare i say, arrogance?? that IS a bit ‘off putting’…….

    may i share something with you, though?? we dealt in ministry for several years with teenagers and ‘young people’ and we saw time and again great ‘repentance’ and weeping and confession – but, honestly – most of them did NOT endure…..

    yes, i am born again and yes, i am ‘spirit filled’ and yes, i DO speak in tongues, and yes, i DO know that it is about the POWER and NOT just the ‘evidences’ by a long shot…..

    but, i rather think that nothing i say is going to ‘matter’ to you – for you certainly seem to have taken the ‘tiger by the tail’ and since you have such a powerful revelation of this – please PRESS ON – but, perhaps, you could learn to be a little more ‘humble’ in expressing yourself???

    just perhaps???

  222. When it comes to the religious affiliation of the presidential candidates, it’s between Islam and Mormonisn. Both Islam and Mormonisn deny that Jesus Christ is God. Islam is blatantly anti-christian. Mormonisn claims to be christian but believes and teaches a different gospel: that Jesus is a god; that God was once a man who progressed to godhood, “As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become”, and many other non-biblical doctrines.This makes it more sinister and deceptive, (and humanly appealing) and therefore dangerous. America, the once Christian nation, is faced with only two choices, both of which are anti-christian. Either choice will lead farther and farther from the God of the Bible. It seems God is closing the door. It appears that the election day will be a sad day for America – and for Christians around the world.

  223. Andrew Sep 25th 2012

    Dunamis – I like what you say – and agree with it.

    But like Deby, I feel that the way you come across smacks of a good deal of arrogance and pride.

    These are not the hallmarks of a true servant of Christ.

    Please consider the need to REPENT of these things – before they take you down. I say this out of concern.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  224. Dunamis Sep 25th 2012