-extracts by J. Lee Grady.

Charismatic pastor Jim Swilley’s announcement that he is gay opened the door wider for a subtle delusion. Don’t believe it.

Many people were shell-shocked last week when Atlanta pastor
Jim Swilley stood in front of his congregation, Church in the Now in
Conyers, Ga., and announced that he is gay. The 52-year-old
minister was abruptly removed from his position in the International
Communion of Charismatic Churches – a network in which he
served as an overseer. Some of Swilley’s members left his church,
others stayed, and countless others are now scratching their heads.

We Americans are lost in a moral fog. Two major Protestant
denominations (the Episcopal Church USA and the Evangelical
Lutheran Church in America) have voted to ordain gay clergy.
Meanwhile, gayness is celebrated in our media, and anyone who
refuses to bow to this idol is painted as intolerant and homophobic.

Christians who still believe homosexuality is incompatible with
biblical faith feel painted into a corner. If we defend Christian
morality, and even if we speak with compassion to those who may
struggle with same-sex attraction, we are accused of hate speech
or branded as judgmental. So we tiptoe through the minefield of
political correctness—and keep our mouths shut.

Sorry, but timidity on this issue is not acceptable. The sins we
avoid addressing from the pulpit are the sins that will thrive
unchallenged in our culture. We must develop some backbone
and speak the truth in love…


Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on October 26th, 2010 at 4:32 am.


235 Replies

  1. Brenda Nov 4th 2010

    Hi i personally feel that this pastor is deceived. The word of God is clearly against same sex couples, i think peopel like this needs deliverance and repent ot their sins.

    South Africa.

  2. Gretchen Offord Nov 4th 2010

    THE question that should be asked of these white elitist so called Christians is this:

    Is it okay to be PROUD and Christian? Pride meaning self righteous, denial of flaws and/or sin.

    Why do you continually post such judgmental fare?

    Jesus said, let he without sin cast the first stone of punishment, judgment.

    This is NOT Biblical.

    Founder, Acts 1711 Ministries

  3. donna Nov 4th 2010

    They should repent but many are not going to even knowing the judgement of God for such depravity. The Bible says there are those who know the judgement of God for such depravity who will go on in their sin and worse ENJOY IT~!~!
    For some it is a last resort to leave them to their own devices and to suffer the consequences. I have talked to homosexuals who refuse to hear the truth, who refuse to repent, and who refuse to give up their abominations, so all one can do is to leave them to God to deal with. Some are so frustrating to deal with because of their blindness and hardness of heart. Thank God there are some that leave this sin to become beautiful followers of Christ.

  4. I have a brother who was gay. For many years he flanted his life style. Until one day he became a born again christian and gave his life to Jesus and became a very changed man. Today after 26 years praying for him, he is working in a christian place, Jesus is his Lord and Savior and my brother walks like a man of God, who only wants to serve Jesus, he has no desire for his old life style or ways. When one becomes born again unto Jesus a new life begin and the old life goes away. I am still amazed how Jesus changes people for Him.. Don’t you just love Jesus for His wonderful love to help those who cannot do it themselves.

  5. Andrew Nov 4th 2010

    Gretchen – I am quite shocked by your statement.

    You mean no-one should say that homosexuality is sin? Are you saying it is OK for Christian leaders to be gay?


  6. ruth farley Nov 4th 2010

    James 1: 21, 22, “Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”

    Jesus doesn’t care if we sin( this includes homosexuality); He just wants us to love Him. God doesn’t like divorce but, since He just wants us to be happy, He looks the other way. Pornography? Well, yes, it’s wrong, but, we’re just human, after all and God understands that. Abortion? That’s a tough one. But, surely Jesus won’t want you to be saddled with a child just when you are ready to start living.

    The Word of God? Of course, it’s important but remember this: we’re no longer under law, we’re under grace. The Bible is God’s love letter to us, telling us how much He loves us. After all, God just wants to make us happy and prosperous and help us to fulfill our dreams…even if He isn’t in them.

    Jesus is too nice to make any serious demands on us about growing in holiness or living a godly life even though we’re supposed to be His people who were bought with His blood. Even though our salvation cost Him His life, it really ought not to cost us anything; salvation is a free gift from God, afterall. We have freedom in Christ and, because of it, we can live how we want to; after all, Jesus knows our heart.

    We have Christian liberty and God’s grace covers us–no matter what we do. He loves us too much to demand anything from us that might make us uncomfortable. He knows that it would make us unhappy to have people laugh at us just because we are different; He wouldn’t want that. He puts few, if any, demands on us.

    God is completely devoted to our happiness. He doesn’t care what we do just as long as we enjoy ourselves and give Him a passing acknowledgment (when and if we have time).

    It would be nice if we prayed or read His Word or went to church; those things are good. God would really like that, and if we have time, we just might do Him a favor and try to occasionally get some of those things done.

    Many modern “Christians” serve a false God. We’ve listened to Satan’s lies and blindly embraced his counterfeit gospel. We no longer know what truth is. We’re not even sure that there even is any such thing as unwavering, unyielding, unchanging truth. All we “know” is that we want to be happy. We want to have fun…to have a good life…a good marriage…children who make us proud. We want success and everything that goes with it. We long for all of the baubles and bangles our modern world offers. We are hungry for the glittery, shiny “stuff” that daily flashes before our eyes. We don’t want to be different. We don’t want to be passed over or be laughed at. We don’t want to be persecuted. We don’t want to die. We’ve been told that we can have all that this world offers and heaven, too. Obviously, the martyrs were wrong: they didn’t have to die to anything; they certainly didn’t have to die for Christ.

    In our quest to make truth more palatable, we’ve changed God the Father into our “heavenly Daddy”, transformed the Holy Spirit from God into a feeling or a force, created a Jesus more interested in our happiness than in our holiness and reduced the Word of God into a love letter. This changes nothing. God the Father IS God the Father; He’s not our “Daddy” by any stretch of the imagination. The Holy Spirit IS God. The real Jesus is Lord even if we refuse to acknowledge it; our failure to acknowledge His Lordship doesn’t diminish or change it. God’s Word is meant to teach us and change us; it will one day be used to judge us.

    We’ve been duped by the same lies the devil has been telling since the beginning of time. Life isn’t about us; it’s about God. God doesn’t make suggestion; He issues commands. He isn’t there for us, we are here for Him. Satan has deceived us and we’ve willingly let him. He’s convinced us that we can have the best of both worlds. This world offers us so very, very much (if we’ll only sell ourselves to buy it); it delivers so very, very little. Embracing this world and its ways will ultimately destroy us. We cannot see that. We’re sure that we can buy the world and dine with Satan and still have Jesus. We cannot see the devastation that lies ahead.

    We do not know Jesus. We do not understand His ways. The stripped, beaten, humiliated, suffering, poverty-stricken Savior Who was crushed by His Father for the sins of His people is confusing to us; to some, He’s downright embarrassing. We much prefer the cute little Baby in the manger over the suffering Savior on the cross. Because we fail to understand Him, we also misunderstand His message. We love to repeat among ourselves that Jesus told us to “Come unto me, all ye that labour, and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11: 28) We forget that Jesus also said “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.” (Luke 9: 23)

    Jesus didn’t die so that we could be comfortable sinning. He died to conform us to His image, to make us holy, to give us a new heart. All of the lies of Satan will never change that.

  7. Gretchen

    Be careful what passages you quote because in that same scene Jesus says to the woman “go and sin no more”

    This is not about casting stones this is about people choosing to live a lifestyle that is incompatible with God’s Wod

    And the name of your ministry is Acts 17:11?? Well not many people are looking to the word to see if what is being said is actually so – we need to be more like the bereans and start heeding to what God is saying

  8. Some thoughts from Judgemental Paul, you know the silly little guy who wrote most of the New Testament:

    1 Timothy 1:6-11 6But some teachers have missed this whole point. They have turned away from these things and spend their time arguing and talking foolishness. 7They want to be known as teachers of the law of Moses, but they don’t know what they are talking about, even though they seem so confident. 8We know these laws are good when they are used as God intended. 9But they were not made for people who do what is right. They are for people who are disobedient and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who murder their father or mother or other people. 10These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching 11that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God.

    9When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian£ yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don’t even eat with such people.

    1 Corinthians 5:9-13 12It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. 13God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”£

    I wonder if Paul knew that what he was saying “was Not Biblical??!!

  9. When Christians are so selfish they can accept anything so as not to rock ‘their’ boat. Adultery, homosexuality…. When we take the ‘Don’t Judge Attitude’ so far we are lukewarm & will be spat out, what then? Who then teaches the word of Christ?
    How I would like to send this to dear Christian friends who accept the homosexual orientation of their son & will not return to a church that does not accept homosexuality. Accept the sinner, not the sin. My feelings are the church in general does not have the love & capacity to differentiate between sinner & sin anymore as they are so in love with themselves as individuals. Therefore, it’s easier to gossip & shun. ???

  10. I understand the reason of your post and your question, but if in 2010 we are still asking ourselves if it’s OK to9 be Gay and Christian, then we have been wastin our time! How much does it take to understand plain English? Some people have translated the Bible in many languages, but at the end of it, it’s still saying the same thing over and over! The problem it’s if we are willing to condemn or treat every sin in the same way, or we are harsh only against other people’s sins. But even if some sins do have different gravity, like “adultery and homosexuality”, and some have a different judgement towards them, still, God is going to judge all of them according to His fair judgement, and not according to my judgement. Yet, if I am preaching or teaching the Word of God and I can’t even be able to judge these simple things, what business have I to be in the ministry? James says that if any amongst us should sway from the truth and another will bring him back to the right way, we will save our brother’s soul and cove or “avoid” moltitudes of sins! Now, how can you go to your brother and tell him that he needs to be converted to the right way, unless you make a judgement in his life, according to the Word of God? We do need to be able to just the lives of our Brothers and Sisters, and be able to go to them (as others should come to us), and tell them that they are living a sinful life, and it’s better that he will repent and change, otherways he will be lost forever!!!

    Now, Paul says that if our gospel is hidden, it’s hidden to those who don’t want to see it, and don’t want to follow it!

  11. Ruth

    You pretty much nailed it– thats American style chistianity at it’s finest

  12. HappyTrails Nov 4th 2010

    Gretchen says:
    “THE question that should be asked of these WHITE ELITIST so called Christians is this:”

    Happy Trails comments:
    Where is that coming from, Gretchen? Are there no ELITISTS in other colors and forms?

  13. HappyTrails Nov 4th 2010

    Lee Grady says:
    “The sins we avoid addressing from the pulpit are the sins that will thrive unchallenged in our culture. We must develop some backbone and speak the truth in love… ”

    This hits the nail on the head! The PRACTICE OF SIN is darkness….and not addressing the practice of sin is leaving those sins in the darkness.


  14. Andrew Nov 4th 2010


    Andrew. Hello. We know Alan Chambers and have been involved in the ex-gay
    movement for about 20 years. We have written a book on Science and
    Homosexuality (300pp, published USA 1999 and now extensively updated). You
    will find it now on our website http://www.mygenes.co.nz for free download. To
    our knowledge it’s the most comprehensive and accessible on the market
    today. It may be a useful resource for you. Shows that Hy is not
    genetically or biologically driven. Reviews 10,000 scientific papers and publications.

    WEBSITE- http://www.mygenes.co.nz

  15. HappyTrails Nov 4th 2010

    ruth farley….That’s America’s church institute, all right.

    Goo…..It’s sad what you say, but so unfortunately true.

  16. Richard Makohoniuk Nov 4th 2010

    WE NEED TO SHOUT AGAINST ANY AND ALL SIN INCLUDING ABNORMAL SEX SIN SUCH AS HOMOSEXUAL, I have a son who wants to marry his male sweetheart I hate the SIN but love the SINNER.

  17. Andrew Nov 4th 2010

    Richard – was there something that happened in his younger days that perhaps set him on this path?


  18. Teshuva Nov 4th 2010

    One is not hateful for declaring the Word of God about homosexuality or any other sin. The Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin, an abomination, and those who engage in it have been given over to believe a lie, are reprobate (castaway) and exhibit ungodly fruit showing they are false and their actions evil.

    Pr 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

    The most loving thing anyone can do is tell someone to repent. That doesn’t mean to just say I’m sorry. It means acknowledgement of sin, godly sorrow, turning from that sin, making a commitment to God to not do it again and wherever possible to make restitution and clean up the damage one has done.

  19. Francisco Nov 4th 2010

    My step-son is gay, but in our 13 plus years of marriage, my wife and I never condoned his lifestyle. However, we share the love of God by our actions and Holy writ!

    Miss Oxford is deceived, and her view is worldly. The Bible says that we are to not only judge ourselves, but to judge everything in our circle of influence by the light of God’s word:

    Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible.
    (Ephesians 5:11-13a)

  20. Lee Grady says “We Americans are lost in a moral fog”. I say “We Bible believers are lost in a verbal fog when it comes to this issue”.

    In Matthew 19’4-6 Jesus “answered and said to them, ‘Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning “made them male and female,” and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh”?

    “So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” END OF STORY! Men and women can do what they like but God only joins together a man and a woman.

    Remember the word: “Now is the axe laid to the root of the trees!”

  21. I agree with what Lee wrote.

    There are fine examples of healed and delivered individuals who have struggled with Homosexuality in New Zealand also.

    Lets be prayerful about our responses.

    Bless you all,

    Carl Emerson

  22. Late Night Lisa Nov 4th 2010

    God’s Word is clear on this sin of sexual perversion.

    Could this be a “Symptom” of remaining silent?

    U.K. Hight Court Weighs Whether Christian Couple Can Foster

    Rep Pete Stark Seeks To Dismantle adoption in U.S.

  23. I believe you can be “christian” and be gay, because that Christianity is a pagan religion just like all of the others… You cannot love and follow Yahweh if you are gay, You have to strive to live Holy, this just goes to show you that the world is in the churches…. and the churches are in the world, we as Yahweh’s followers cannot be in the world, this world is not our home…It is so sad to see the world coming to this , so much sin… and people thinking and being taught that even if you sin just a little , you will still make it to Heaven,, NOT TRUE! People wake up!

  24. My comment on this issue is simply this. Homosexuals are born with those cells and have a real battle and have to find their walk with the Lord. It was never their choice and have had very difficult times but are at peace with who they are and have come to be whol they are and have learnt to accept mans judgement. But they also know the Lord is the JUDGE and knows their heart. They don’t live that life but are honest in what they are and are able to minister to others. Some get healed of it, some are not. I have arthritis all over my body and it hurts, have asked for healing many times but have come to peace with Him who is more than enough and like my brothers I can minister and share with people that which no one else can speak about without knowing what they are talking about. Both my brothers are gay, both were ministers and faced what they are stuck with and love HIM more than anyone else. Each of our walks are with Him and we to often judge and as far as I know He is the Judge. Anyway let us pray without ceasing and be a witness of who He is. Lord of lords and King of kings and our loving Saviour and lover and friend. He is more than enough. Ammy

  25. Mrs Luther Nov 4th 2010

    I am in complete agreement with Lee Gradys article.
    and plesantly surprised he wrote it.

    It is the closest to my own thoughts on the matter that I have read so far.
    Good on Lee Grady for speaking a balanced, truthful account

  26. Mrs Luther Nov 4th 2010

    As regards to ‘my thoughts’, I am especially referring to the possibly 50 homosexuals I was friends with, or crossed my path, over many years, they ALL had very domineerng, controlling mothers, or had been sexually interferred with.

  27. Andrew Nov 4th 2010

    Ammy – it has been proven that it is not a “gene” you can be born with. See the links above.


  28. Mrs Luther Nov 4th 2010

    I am sorry Deb I am a CHRISTIAN and I am not a pagan.

  29. Note that here I am not speaking of the issue of homosexuality, but of certain other issues.
    Sometimes we go too far with people who are born with a serious, difficult problem. Yes, it is easy to say that we were all born in sin, and with sinful tendencies, but sometimes we go too far. As Jesus said in Matthew 12:7, referring to Hosea 6:6, “But if you had known what this means, I desire mercy (NASB compassion) and not a sacrifice, you would not have condemned the innocent.”

    My friend was hurt by men of God such as yourselves. Terribly hurt, almost to death. She was raised as a boy until she could not bear the inner tension any longer, and rather than die she had gender surgery and has lived since then as a lady. Most of you would have condemned her. She could not find a church to go to. At my urging, she had testing done by an MD geneticist. The initial testing showed she was XY. Cased closed, you think, right? And most of you would have condemned her. But there is another test which has only been available in the last 5 years, and she was tested further. A Y chromosome normally has 76 genes. Her Y chromosomes have only 36 genes. They looked, and her body morphology (shape) is known by her doctors to be completely female, and this is something that cannot be changed by hormones and such later in life. They looked closely, and she was born with both testes and ovaries (which was amazingly not obvious at first.). The geneticist has determined that she is an XY female. She is a true hermaphrodite. Be honest with yourself: how many of you would have condemned her??
    But if you were to see her today, you would say that it is totally impossible and absurd that she was ever a boy. (She truly wasn’t ever a boy, but she had to play the part and pretend to be for many years.)

    Along with condemning certain things which are sinful, others are condemned who were just simply born that way. Jesus spoke to this kind of problem and told us not to condemn but rather to have mercy. There are many who in desperation have taken their own life, because of the condemnation from within the church. Yes, suicide is sinful, but those who condemned so brutally are partially responsible before God for their loss of life.

    Thank God, my friend still lives, and loves God with all her heart.

  30. Andrew Nov 4th 2010

    Ah – yes – you are talking about a rare condition that is sadly caused by birth defects and so-on. Of course, mercy must be extended to such ones.

    God bless you!


  31. Andrew Nov 4th 2010

    In fact, we extend grace and love to ALL in the desire for them to be made clean in Christ. But we must also speak TRUTH otherwise they can never be free.


  32. Stephen St. Louis Nov 4th 2010

    A contentious issue to say the least. I was present when the Presbyterian Church in Canada voted to adopt the stance that there was a difference between homosexual orientation and homosexual practice. The practice was unquestionably sinful and could not be condoned. Orientation, if science was to be believed, was due to genetics, and therefore could not be sinful. In essence, it amounted to love the sinner hate the sin. It was very reasonable but there was 10% on either side of the fence that felt that it either didn’t go far enough or went way too far. Those 20% tied up preceedings preventing a vote for almost the entire assembly. It had already been deferred for, I think, 10 years because of the delay tactics of these two groups warring against each other.

    I was a young adult representative (17) and not allowed to vote but it didn’t keep us from being able to speak on the issues. As I watched the debate, a great sense of disgust arose within me. It was like watching the debates in the House of Parliament with all the bickering and procedural wrangling. It almost made me sick. I HAD to say something. As I got up to speak, they shut down the mic’s. That didn’t stop me. I was being driven by the Holy Spirit. I hollered at the 500 delegates that God was disgusted by all of this and that the Enemy was laughing at them. And then I stormed out of the hall taking 3/4 of the Young Adult Representatives with me.

    After a little, while I was approached by one of the delegates. I got a mild rebuke for my unseemly outburst, but then he thanked me for having the courage to say what the other 80% felt. Most of them just wanted the chance to vote and settle the issue. I was invited to say my piece which I did, apologizing for how I said what I said but not what I said. I repeated my earlier statement adding that, as christians, we are supposed to be above this kind of petty bickering back and forth. The report was before them and they needed to decide it.

    The moderator of the General Assembly agreed and put it to the vote. The report was adopted and has survived numerous attempts to have it overturned by the 10% that opposed it.

    It doesn’t matter really what the issue may be. If you stand for the truth and for what God says about a thing you will always be accused of something whether it is self-righteousness. being judgemental, being a perfectionist, being a bigot or insensitive, or any number of other things.

    The world opposes the truth. It always has. It always will. It is part of it’s nature. It is only by the grace of God that we come to a saving knowledge of the truth. I have argued long and hard with any number of the pro-gay crowd and finally gave up because I didn’t like what it was doing to me. I realized that I will never change their mind or provide some sort of convincing proof because they don’t want to see it. If they did, there is more then enough biblical evidence to convince them. It’s not my job and if I try to makle it my job, I might as well smack my head against a wall a few times and save myself the time getting the headache.

    It is our job to speak the truth that God directs us to, as God directs us to, and leave the convicting and the convincing to the Holy Spirit.

    Speak the truth in love and then get out of God’s way. Best advice I can give anyone trying to deal with this issue.

  33. ruth farley Nov 4th 2010



  34. Joanna Nov 4th 2010

    Yes, okay we can all buy you may have been “BORN” homosexual or lesbian. So just get “Born AGAIN” and watch the Spirit of God change you!!!

  35. Andrew Nov 4th 2010

    Actually – the “gene” evidence shows they are not “born” with it.

    See the links above.


  36. Trish Nov 4th 2010

    I was in a very serious negative state all my life. I was bound by the addiction of sex, engaging in bi sexual behavior. Living with a very dangerous attitude and carried it with me into my Christian walk. I was in and out of very bad relationships since the age of 13. I was molested by an uncle, told my mom and she told me not tell anyone. I witnessed my father molesting my male cousins. That memory I repressed well into my adult life. It wasn’t until I broke the generational curses and cast out all the spirits of perversion from my life that I was delivered from my addictions. I am now in a very healthy monogamist relationship. My husband is my best friend. He treats me like a treasure. I do not have fantasies about engaging in sexual relationships with others anymore. I used to be drawn to people of the same demonic influence, familiar spirits, I don’t have that problem any more. i got serious with the Lord. I put Him first and He, not me, saved me from the sins of this world. We truly have to die daily and place all our cares in His loving hands. Fervent prayer, fasting and growth in the Lord by reading His word. Fellowship with Christians and turn a blind eye to the things of this world. Mind what you see, hear and say, for those things can come back into your mind and infect your heart. Picture it like a song that gets stuck in your head, playing over and over. A movie that you should not have seen, a joke that someone told, a picture that was sent to you by mistake. Turn it out and tune into the Word of God. God bless and I pray this helps someone.

  37. Stephen St. Louis Nov 4th 2010

    Really, would that even matter if they were? God is God. He can do whatever He wants. You could also say the Adam’s sin resulted in all manner of defects not the least of which is our sinful nature that causes us to be thoroughly corrupt. I would says that makes the “born that way” arguement moot. God creates. Satan corrupts. Is it so hard to believe that Satan could corrupt the genes of a human to give them a hardwired desire for the same sex? Anything Satan does can be undone through the blood of Jesus so how can that even be used as an excuse?

  38. Most human beings have sexual desires. To act on a wrong desire and commit fornication or have a homosexual encounter requires a mate. It is a deliberate, willful act and sin against God. Those who commit fornication sin against God. Those who commit a homosexual act with another person sin against God. Many desire to do have sex with someone, but refrain from doing it because they fear God and believe it is wrong. They keep ourselves from falling into that sin, though tempted sore, by not giving in and planning to commit that act of disobedience and rebellion to God. When they begin to plan to do it, they have already sinned against the Lord, but even so, to stop and repent is far better than to follow through.
    Those that are tempted toward homosexual sex are in no different position. They need not give in to the fleshly desire, but if they do and begin to plan such an act with another, they can repent and stop.
    My point is that sexual sin can be heterosexual or homosexual, but both are sin. Homosexual sex is deviant behavior that is against nature, but, like fornication (sex between unmarried partners), it is sin against God. Paul notes that fornication is a sin against one’s body, also. Homosexual sex would also be sin against one’s body, but may even have more dire results of disease and early death. It is an accursed behavior that God hates, making it worse than heterosexual sex. Thus it is called an abomination in the old testament.

  39. Trish,

    Bless you for your testimony…


    You raise a matter worth serious consideration, It seems to me that the Genetic DNA argument disregards the deeper spiritual root that drives the condition even to the extent of it becoming physically present. I have seen Jesus remove physically a wall in the womb that prevented childbirth. That lady now on the mission-field has had several children. He can correct anything physical including DNA or genetic.

    Carl Emerson.

  40. The case Anna quotes is very different. I believe those cases are rare and need compassion and understanding and all the help available. What we are being confronted with is the push to normalise homosexuality. We are told that it is a legitimate choice and even children in primary school are being conditioned to accepting sexual diversity. This includes bi-sexuality [what excuse could they have I wonder] This is what Christians are to stand against. The opposition resorts to the usual name calling [homophobic etc] to try to intimidate.
    Most adolescents have at some time been drawn to a person of the same sex. When they are told that they have “choice” they could be tempted to believe they are gay and become involved in a homosexual affair instead of what could have been just a healthy close friendship. Humanistic society wants to remove all the guidelines. If we follow the trend of euthanisa for the elderly, abortion for the unborn and same-sex marriages as some want, the end result is genocide.
    If a preacher states that the Bible says that it is wrong to steal that’s ok but if he/she says the Bible says homosexuality is wrong then it’s called “hate speech”. A Pastor in Sweden was jailed for six months for preaching what the Word of God says.
    Christians have to continue to stand up for truth and not be intimidated. As Ruth Graham once said. “If God doesn’t judge a nation for endorsing homosexuality, He’ll have to resurrect Sodom and Gomorrah and apologise to them.”
    It comes back to the simple truth that God loves the sinner but hates the sin. A gay person can become a Christian but then should not remain gay. This takes time and the support of Christian friends.
    The Bible says that Jesus is able to save to the uttermost those who come to Him.[Hebrews 7:22] and many stories of ex-gays prove it.

  41. We adopted a little boy just before he turned 4. He had a strong willed personality and would pitch major fits if not given his way. He even bit his 6 year old brother upon there first meeting. This was his nature. When he learned to speak English he lied much of the time. This too was his nature. He didn’t like to share his toys with his older brothers and sisters. He was angry, a liar and selfish. His dad and I loved him, as difficult as he was, and we began to teach him right from wrong. It wasn’t easy. His nature was bent towards these traits. One could argue his personality was already formed. Don’t bother teaching him the things of the bible and training him up in the way he should go. But how could we do that? It wouldn’t be fair to him or to his brothers and sisters. So we loved him, disciplined him and taught him what the bible says. Today he is a lovely young man with a heart for God.
    Yes I liken homosexuality with a trait that one may be bent towards due to environment or what have you. However we cannot leave them there because they were born that way. It goes against the very nature of God. We are to be transformed into His likeness. We are to truly love them and tell them the truth.To me they are the most difficult of people groups to reach. Our culture holds up there sexuality as if it is something sacred. This is the work of the enemy. I can see true believers being persecuted over this very issue in the USA. To hear of pastors of the bible coming out as gay breaks my heart. Oh how deceived and sinful they are. We can have victory over besetting sins!

  42. Kathy Nov 4th 2010

    Gretchen – If we are the Body of Christ, then we cannot “judge” in the sense of condemning someone to hell, but we ARE supposed to judge among ourselves…test & examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. I believe the words Gay-Christian is like an oxymoron – the 2 cannot go together! When I was younger, I lived a homosexual lifestyle. I believed a lie…but thank God He gave me enough time to recognize my sin would have condemned me to hell. When I understood that, I repented and the Lord set me free. We have got to know what the word says for ourselves because our life depends on it!

  43. Khandie Nov 4th 2010

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

    (Sharing the truth in LOVE)

  44. James Nov 4th 2010

    I will speak frankly. What moral authority does the church have over the world? When a difference cannot be found between the two? Before the church will have any right to judge the world it must first judge itself or face the judgment of the Lord. I’m afraid since we have declined to do the former, the latter will now fall upon us.

    Homosexuality is sin, but so is hatred, so is assault, so is murder, and all three of those have been the church’s response to those found to be homosexuals. Should not the church repent of those actions? The early church, if one studies practices and behaviors of the people of the city of Corinth, was filled with people who were once homosexuals, prostitutes and worse. THE QUESTION IS WHAT CHANGED THEM! why the same-thing that can change us all today. The gospel of truth, and the love of God, for with the love of God comes the power of God, and it is the power to set men free of every snare of the devil.

  45. Thanks to Happy Trails for pointing out the obvious slander, or is that, ‘racist’ tone, when Gretchen mentioned ‘White Elitist’ christians.
    On one hand, she tries to point out our apparent ‘wrong’ for the subject matter, yet finds it absolutely okay to use knee jerk progressive/liberal ideological terms to do the very same thing she alleged of this story.
    I hate to say it y’all, but christianity has gone right off the deep end. This Pastor in Atlanta coming out of the closet isn’t a singular event, it’s everywhere within the christian church and is spreading fast.
    I’m curious, ever since it was ‘okay’ to come out of the closet, is it just me or does there seem to be all of a sudden, a huge wave of young people now calling themselves gay? Personally, I think it’s a fad, the ‘IN’ thing to do, but its root lies in what we teach our children at the education level, and we should all be aware by now that liberals run our education system.
    The warning sign was the removal of prayer from the schools, but it just kept getting worse.
    We know homosexuality is a sin against the Lord, and yes we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God; but that should never mean that we need to stand by with our thumbs up our butts keeping silent about these serious spiritual issues that keep robbing the people of the truth. Political Correctness is a freeze on our God given right of free speech & expression; any ‘believer’ that plays the politically correct game and not call a spade a spade, is doing violence to the Kingdom of Heaven by either denying His truth or refusing to be a light of truth when the opportunity arises.
    Is that not like ‘denying’ Him?
    Would not the life saving words of His truth being shared with a sinner, be an act of love so that person can decide for themselves and possibly come to the Lord for Salvation?

    God Bless America? Why should He? Really.

  46. I think the real issue here – is to understand the gay issue… And that being gay is for some – a choice made out of pressures and temptations and thoughts from the Temptor… Children born gay are indeed born gay – though a generational curse where someone in the family has unwittingly and unknowingly passed on an unclean spirit…. I have a cousin this way….and then also – ‘experimenting’ can cause a person to respond in the flesh – with either male or female with affection, with or without a sexual act following…. In order for things to be turned around, we must be schooled by the Lord in the causes, and then in deliverance and teaching the ‘gay person gone straight’ in spiritual warfare and the battle that goes on in our minds…. Everything must be preceeded with prayer… In my personal realm of experience in dealing with gays, I have 2 people who have chose the gay lifestyle because of being so wounded by the opposite sex, that they simply made a willful choice to ‘play it safe’ with the same sex who ‘understands them’… I also have a lifelong friend who is gay – being brought up in a home where the parental landscape was a Jezebel mother and an Ahab father…. that can cause a young girl to reject her gender at an early age…. First and foremost we must approach in love those caught up in this unclean lifestyle, and be willing to counsel with gays that will be comfortable and open with us…. and then pray that they come to know the gospel and understand their need for a Savior, and also verse them well in Scriptures to help them understand that the gay lifestyle is not compatable with a Christian lifestyle…. We must never give up on them… I think it grieves the heart of God when straight Christians finger point and judge – with no true understanding of why people are gay…. Oftentimes this lifestyle choice is because of subconscious decisions based on deep woundings in their lives…. We will never lead anyone to the Lord until we have a genuine compassion for their situation….. Remember when the people were ready to stone the woman caught in adultry….? What was Jesus response….? He wrote in the sand…..and Scripture doesn’t record what He wrote, but I’ll bet you anything, He was listing THEIR sins…. and then He spoke and said ‘ Let he who is without sin – cast the first stone…..’ Only humble servants of God will have the power and ministry to set the captive free…. We just have to decide if we’re willing to be used of God, or continue on our merry way…. When we run the race and keep our eye focused on the goal, we won’t be looking to the left or right to see what our brother ( other Christian ministries) is/are doing…. but rather – we will be focused on the real goal…. and that is – leading others to Christ as Deliverer and Healer…. Blessings from Montana, Lindie Gibson

  47. I agree with this article. More and more people are coming out and saying they are gay. It causes one to stop and ask themselves what is going on? Is it genuine or is it a very strong delusion? It seems like a wave of darkness spreading across America right now. I have an uncle who has gay and attends the MCC and sings in their choir.

    How does a person defend their faith and the fact that homosexuality is wrong? Do you defend it by faith and stay steadfast?

  48. <<<>>>

    I’m curious about something: why is there all this support for Grady on THIS issue of immorality, but as soon as someone mentions REMARRIAGE=adulterous union, everyone gets in a tizzy? Is it because remarriage adultery is so widespread in the church and is now acceptable whereas once it was viewed as an illicit relationship NOT joined as One flesh by God? Jesus says this: “whosoever marries her that is divorced, commits adultery “(has unlawful relations with another man’s wife) . Jesus and Paul taught far more on the issue of adulterous marriages than they ever did on the sin of homosexuality. The sin of continuing in relationships the Lord defines as adultery is far more widespread than homosexuality or the acceptance of it.

    Today, “stander” organizations are exploding (those who are faithfully honoring their original marriage vows and praying for their wayward spouses to repent of their adulteries and come home to the family God gave them). The church doesn’t seem to know what to do with them. They can see in God’s Word that remarriage=adultery……….and it would seem the stander is the faithful one in God’s sight, but then what? What usually happens is the stander is pushed out of their local congregations or told to keep their beliefs to themselves. I know, I have seen it happen on numerous occasions. The problem is this: they make the remarried and the pastors who continue marrying the divorced VERY uncomfortable. When will the church REALLY deal with THIS sin of immorality in it’s midst? Until we do, we don’t have alot of real credibility in judging homosexuals, do we?

  49. Teach a child in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it. Telling a ten-year old boy with gay tendencies there is nothing wrong is not being honest! There is! God made us male and female!
    Don’t professional researchers explore all kinds of ‘malfunctions’ in children to find a remedy? They do, from speech deficiencies to kleptomania . Achild bent on stealing must be corrected, in love and firmness, not told there is nothing wrong!
    Great to read testimonies of gay people, whose life was changed by totally surrendering ALL to Jesus. The media has a lot to answer for in deceiving the nations!

  50. Most Rev. Archbishop Gregori Nov 4th 2010

    If a Christian has homosexual tendencies but does not act on them and remains celibate, that is one thing, but if someone is “OPENLY” gay and is actively gay, and if that individual has no intentions of turning from that life-style, they CANNOT be a Christian (that goes for any sinful behavior).

    Did Jesus not say, “Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more”?

    He did not say, “Go and continue doing what your doing.”

  51. Tina Baxley Nov 4th 2010

    What has happened to, forgive them Father, they know not what they do? What has happened to patience and long suffering, and encouraging others? You say that homosexuals will not enter and yet liars do not either. This man is pretending, lying to himself. The heart has to be changed and only the Lord can do this. Do I think it is right, no I do not. Having been delivered of a homosexual lifestyle myself, I can tell you that the Lord is ever so loving and gentle in His deliverance. I did not give up homosexuality because it was wrong, I gave it up because a relationship with the Lover of my soul caused me to be too gay to be straight but love Him too much to be gay. When it was time for Him to deal with me and that area of my life, He approached me. I told Him, Lord You said You could do anything, so change my sex organs. He said to me, I can do that, but where am I going to get the most glory, changing your sex organs or changing you? I said changing me Lord. My long suffering Lord and King approached me again a couple of days later, I loved Him to much to tell Him no, and so I wound up on the floor weeping, when I felt Him hog tie the spirit and literally boot it out. I was then set free by the power of and love of God. Did His judgment come to me? Yes it did, he opened my eyes and ears and cause this lame person to walk and her dead mind to become alive. This is God’s judgment.
    we need not underestimate the power of God and the cross,and the love that is the very essence of who He is.
    We need to get them to the Maker and quit trying to fix them ourselves. Anyone who reads this and has fornication of any kind, please continue to run to a sure refuge of the Lord. He never fails.

  52. The Scriptures speak for themselves! Either we accept or reject what is written. There is no middle ground.

    Sodomy is linked to idolatry in the Scriptures. See 1 Kings 15:12 for example.

    In Romans 1, Paul links the two also. The cure—-the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

    Romans 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

  53. The true church is made up of people who are reborn of water and the spirit. with the Bible evidence of Acts 2.
    The person that one was, is dead and buried.
    Maybe folk pushing so called “righteous” homosexual behaviour were never christian in the first place.
    “Same sex marriage” is at the very best a complete oxymoron. In fact whatever the do gooders may say, whatever laws any man made Gov. likes to legislate. Marriage is/has always been/always willbe – male to female, otherwise there is no marriage – ipso facto. Ask any tradesmen and he will testify that industry relies on male-female to survive and make its connections
    More importantly Gods Word,
    are in total agreement on this – for marriage you must have male and female – (In the mouth of two or three witnesses let everything be confirmed).
    ANY person, priest, pleb, or “self professed christian” who claims otherwise is putting himself/herself outside of the Church.
    I have no compunction at all about proclaiming this publicly to all and sundry, .because it is God’s judgement, His Word not mine!
    In the fellowship i attend, we only have ex homosexuals – they were delivered by the power of God (Gr dunamis) when they received the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues – the new prayer-language given to those born again, and therefore, dead to their old life of sin.
    If “churches” adopted this New Testament doctrine there would be less voting – argument. . How dare we presume to “vote” on a God declared principle! Did Moses come down the mountain with ten “suggestions” and get Arron and others to “vote” on there legitimacy/adoption?. Sadly Ancient Israel, like many of their modern counterparts, did vote – with their hearts and minds. They were, and are, DEAD WRONG (no pun intended) -just like the modern “accept same sex union” advocates.
    Pr Michael

  54. Just an additional thought……..I have all the sympathy and compassion in the world for a person who is trapped in homosexuality! It is a terrible destructive thing and a very strong bondage. I pray for those who are trapped in such sin that they may be set free. BUT never can homosexuality be condoned or whitewashed. It is sin nevertheless!

  55. Nobody is born gay, and we are NOT born with the original sin of Adam and Eve either. Nor are we born with a “sinful nature”, this term was inserted into the NIV text in place of the word, “flesh”.

  56. Khandie Nov 4th 2010

    JC wrote: “Just an additional thought……..I have all the sympathy and compassion in the world for a person who is trapped in homosexuality! It is a terrible destructive thing and a very strong bondage. I pray for those who are trapped in such sin that they may be set free. BUT never can homosexuality be condoned or whitewashed. It is sin nevertheless!”

    AMEN!! I agree completely. I have compassion for them as well as anyone bound by sin, which is why I spent an enormous amount of time praying for such. I personally know some who are struggling with this issue and I love them with the love of the Lord, and because of that love I desire to see them set free, thus…I PRAY for them and their deliverance.

    One thing I must add is that we must understand the importance of repentance. Seems the church takes too much advantage of the Lord assuming because of his unfailing love for us, that he would continue to excuse our sins (and this goes for ALL sin). But what about our love and desire for him? If we truly love him, we would do whatever we possibly could to be pleasing to him. The Lord himself said it best “If you love me, keep my commandments”…

    I share the truth of God’s word out of LOVE, not to judge nor ridicule, nor hurt another brother or sister as all have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory, and I am no exception nor in any way near to perfection :). But, when I stumble and fall or lured in a direction where spiritual danger lies ahead, I would desire a loving brother or sister to help me find my way back by showing me the truth of HIS word in LOVE.

    Much love and blessings!!

  57. Sally Nov 4th 2010

    Tyrone – The KJV says we were “shapen in iniquity” and conceived in sin (Psalm 51:5). Yes, we were born with sinful natures. If you have children, you know that “foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction will drive it far from him. (Prov 22:15)” This foolishness is sinfulness that a parent must correct and discipline in order to trail up the child in the way he should go. Children are naturally selfish and think only of themselves first. This is sinful and natural for all of us.

    If we weren’t born with a sinful nature, then why do we need salvation and rebirth?

  58. Peimila Nov 4th 2010

    It is about sin and not judging who is right or wrong. Why would God make male and female if He didn’t have a pupose? He could have simply duplicated another Adam. Right? So dear Grechen get back to the Word of God. And I say this with love.

  59. Rollan McCleary Nov 4th 2010

    I am supposed to be a world authority in this area but you are unlikely to know it or me and the reason is simple. Christian attitudes. Despite the wealth of knowledge I dispose of on gay theologies and more and that could have been of real use to many people and church groups in becoming acquainted with and sorting out these issues, despite having a world first doctorate from any religious studies department in gay spiritualities and a version of it published through London, it is virtually impossible to get Christians to look at it, discuss it or even just reply and give you polite acknowledgement. With that I include such as Christianity Today and its editor who has never replied to me and of course not Lee Grady.

    If and when Christians do pay you attention expect the lies to start up. I even had to complain to the Press Council about absurd claims I was a person who said Jesus incarnated to have sex with his disciples. To deal with the gay issue is to have lessons in just what Christians can be like!

    I’m afraid it’s deluded nonsense all this self-satisfied talk about loving the sinner not the sin. In twenty centuries of Christianity no Christians have thought it or said it before the world shamed it into some level of toleration beyond the torture, the executions, the persecutions, the imprisonments against which it never protested or lifted a finger. Look at what even now Ugandan churches are currently trying to impose! They even want people imprisoned who wouldn’t report on or might speak in support of gays. This is “traditional” Christianity and egged on by the looney wing of evangelicals and fundamentalists in America. ”I’m not homophobic” they all say. An evangelical like Tony Campolo would tell you he has to be with his wife if she expresses her views on homosexuality because opinion is in fact still so alarmingly intense. (It’s also just plain false, a lot of the science and psychology Christians believe is questionable). I doubt if an angel from heaven gave them the answers most might listen. How many Christians know or want to know for example what Jesus is reported to have said to Afro-American Christine Troxell after in a distressed state she had frantically fasted three days for an answer. It’s all suppressed information. Parties both fore and against assume they know the answers and that’s that. And in the last resort does anyone want to know, how, where and why in at least 3 places Jesus in effect does confront the gay issue in the gospels? It’s all hidden in plain view as they say.

    Hopefully out next month, (self published to Kindle and Amazon like Kundalini Warning but it will have PR) will be a book of mine called Temple Mysteries and Spiritual Efficiency. I would commend it to all Christians. A reason it’s not been offered to publishers is It is exceptionally topical in most subjects from problems round Mary MacKillop and exorcism (it critiques a study on this which is basis of a film starring Anthony Hopkins out end next Jan) to autism, Jung’s Red Book, my prophetic dream of a pop singer Charles Haddon’s death this August, and much more (oh yes and kundalini effect regarding which I do mention Andrew’s book). But two chapters are devoted to the gay problem. Is there any definitive way of determining if someone is gay, why do “cures” work for some and not others, what is the gay psycholgoy? Much of this will be extremely original to you and you could be very surprised and you do need to know it. As it anyway has plenty of charismatic interest and controversy I challenge Lee Grady to review this book and perhaps change his attitudes.

  60. Sally Nov 4th 2010

    Rollan – Being a “world authority” doesn’t not matter at all. What matters is whether what you believe is scriptural or not, and you have not made it plain what you believe. It seems, however, that you disagree with Lee Grady’s article, at least to some extent.

    The Bible plainly states that homosexuality is wrong and sinful and that no one who practices homosexuality will enter heaven.

    To “love the sinner and not the sin” is actually what we are supposed to do. Do we sometimes falter and act in hateful ways? Yes indeed. Does this diminish the fact that homosexuality is sinful? No, not at all.

    The “I’m not homophobic” statement would indicate that someone is not afraid of homosexuals or dealing with the homosexual lifestyle issues. I myself am uncomfortable, at least to some extent, dealing with homosexuals, but I do have a heart to reach out to them in love and help them see how Satan has deceived them. I don’t hate homosexuals, nor do I believe they should be abused or mistreated in any way. They are human beings and deserve love and respect and kindness just like any other human being.

    Not sure what your point was – it was unclear the message you were trying to send.

  61. zetlander Nov 4th 2010

    This ‘pastor’ was quoted as saying he came out because he wanted to help stop the increasing number of suicides by Gay young men.
    Some of his own children from his first two marriages have stated that is all well and good for him to do that, but they inturn feel totally humiliated that their father would not only leave them being a pastor and marry someone else, leave them and then later declare he is a homosexual. They now feel that suicide might be a better option than facing life as a teenager at this time.

    Incidently the world says – Homophobia is the hatred or fear of homosexuals

    Actually the term has been hijacked and we have all fallen into accepting it.
    It used to be the ‘dislike of the perverse act’ of homosexuals. Which they term ‘sex’ which it isnt as sex is the act which leads to reproduction.

    Also Intresting that there is no one ‘above’ him to correct him on this in his own church..

  62. Randall Nov 4th 2010

    Thank you Trish and Tina Baxley for your testimony. I believe that Tina has given us a hint that we should all pay attention to.

    Rollan McCleary, can I urge you to broaden your horizens just a bit and perhaps consider what I am about to say?

    Have you actually seen spirits of homosexuality and what they can do to people? Are you acquainted with this type of spirit and the damage which they wreck into society?

    I was molested at age 13 for over 4 months, publically on a junior high school in front of many people. During this time a spirit of homosexuality moved in and took possession of me. He simply took advantage of the situation.

    Now Jim Swilley’s comment “I got tired of pretending” gives a broad hint of what can be taking place to a person with this type of oppression. They are tired of fighting the spirit’s constant lust and inclinations to commit homosexuality and finally give in to the spirit. They simply choose to cease fighting and decide to go along with the impulses being generated by these powerful spiritual forces.

    Lest I be accused of painting with too broad a brush, let me carefully say that not all people who engage in homosexual behavior have spirits of homosexuality controlling them or dominating them. Nor do people with rare genetic conditions which weere mentioned in this dicussion have such an oppression. Jesus himself said to have “righteous judgement”

    But in my case a very powerful spirit of homosexuality came inside my body and began a carefully crafted plan of destroying my life by imparting lack of self confidence, poor self image, lack of self control and many other unhealthy addictions.

    It wasn’t until I attended an Adult Trama and Sexuality Conference held in San Diego CA that I was able to gain true freedom which consisted in having a true identity granted to my gender by God the Father. He reached inside me and switched a switch which turned off this desire for mating with another person of the same sex.

    I had it explained this way, that the lack of bonding with a true Father had caused a perversion which then forced me to attempt to bond with another male. I talked with several ex-homosexuals or practicing homosexuals and drilled into this gender identity issue as addressing their relationship with God the Father specifically and all admitted to me that it wasn’t until the Father issue was put right that the desires or inclinations begin to die down or cease.

    Our gender identity really does come from a father.

    Now in my case, the spirit has several decades of influence so his tentables of spiritual influence had pretty well warped my personality in several areas. But I can say this, that true freedom does lie in properly relating to God and becoming a partaker of His holiness. In my case, freedom came from properly relating to God the Father.

    Now I challenge you, Rollan to please consider that perhaps God the Father and the other members of the God head are not the hatefilled intolerants ones that are creating the attitude that you decry in Christians, but perhaps they are trying to call attention to the fact that submitting to homosexuality as a continued practice will simply make one a servent of the powerful spiritual forces who major in this particular type of sin.

    Could you please consider that?

    Please allow that the spiritual world does exist and that there are forces of light and forces of darkness. Tina said it clearly that Jesus “hog tied the spirit and booted it out” She spoke the truth.

    Before you criticize Christians for that bad attitude, I would urge you to reconsider and perhaps think about these facts that powerful spiritual forces are fighting for control of mankind.

    I actually died in an automobile accident on August 30, 2002, and have personal knowledge of these forces. God allowed me to come back, a second chance.

    I do appreciate your willingness to come onto this discussion board and type up a comment.

    But you do need to add the truth of spirits of darkness and evil and spirits of light and truth and most of all, God, the author of light and good, ruling above all.

  63. Mrs Luther Nov 4th 2010

    I thank God you came on here, and found this site and shared your TRUTH.

    Praise God the true father of us all, who are not deceived by ‘other’ spirits…those who walk in truth, and not deception.

  64. I agree with Cindy. As long as any church or christian is giving the right hand of fellowship to all the adulterers sitting in the pews or preaching behind the pulpit, then they have no right to judge or deny any homosexual the right hand of fellowship either. The vast majority of churches aren’t even Christian anymore, and they don’t even preach that divorce and remarriage is a sin like Jesus and the apostles taught. Afterall, how do they teach the next generation the truth that marriage is for LIFE when half the church is filled with those in adulterous remarriages??? The homosexuals are saying that God’s grace accepts them “just as they are” as much as it covers those who are divorced and remarried. See, the church has even perverted God’s grace to mean that it’s ok to remain in sin, when Paul vehemently said, “God forbid!” The homosexuals say that if the adulterers can remain in adultery and don’t have to repent or forsake their lifestyle in order to be “christian”, then they don’t have to change either…

  65. HappyTrails Nov 4th 2010

    Tina Baxley; Trish; DL
    It’s testimonies like yours that give God His Glory and encourage people to believe and trust God. Thank you, Father, for healing their hearts so they are able to be transparent witnesses for You.

    JC…Good Points! Thank you for revealing that connection between sodomy and idolatry.

    Ammy Brettig and Lindie Gibson
    (That is the punishment for homosexuality, as well as ALL sin, by the way.)

    We ALL can find someone to BLAME for our sins! It starts in childhood! But before we can be set FREE from our sins, God expects us to take responsibility for them.

  66. HappyTrails Nov 4th 2010

    hopeful one…..You have given excellent advice, thank you.

  67. Rollan McCleary Nov 4th 2010

    I didn’t come into this debate to argue what I know can’t be argued here, especially not in sound-bites. Asked what I did come for, I’d hoped it might be obvious. I was trying to affirm Christians don’t know it all in this area, aren’t listening and can often be dishonest and suppressive of information around this subject. I also indicated that I have a book due to appear which deals with this issue in some detail and in addition will cover re shamanism and Andrew Strom’s opinions on kundalini, something I would want him to know, so this was an opportunity.
    Some, respondents here try immediately to make it all a case of myself and others believing or disbelieving scripture as though it could be that simple. You must surely realize that even fundamentalists read scripture selectively. How many women cover their heads to pray today? How many Christians would agree with those many Christians who formerly actively opposed abolition of slavery because St Paul told slaves to be obedient in their position and he didn’t specifically preach against the institution? “Homosexuality” by contrast is privileged as something that can and never should be questioned like all those other biblical issues people reckon to question almost automatically. A sort of hysteria attaches to it. The fact is, if you want to be ultra- literalistic then nowhere does St Paul or anyone the length of the Bible oppose precisely “homosexuality”, the specific cover word and concept didn’t exist. We have to understand under a variety or alternative terms just what Paul was referring to and how and why, even assuming he is to be taken as literally in the matter as telling us to respect the institution of slavery; which none of us do.
    With the greatest respect I don’t think talk of these extreme situations and stories regarding possession by alleged spirits of homosexuality is relevant. It has to be exceptional and I fancy it could apply to almost any extremely perverted and addictive sexual activity whether homosexual or heterosexual. And on the same basis I suppose we could speculate about homophobic Ugandan Christian lynch mobs or Ugandan congregations playing gay porn in their churches just to be assured gays are so wicked. These people are themselves arguably possessed by some spirit yet to be defined!
    I notice no one has taken up on my point about the almost unspeakable history of Christian treatment of the homosexual theme and gay people. I’ll not even trouble to confirm that with the gory details. But as with Catholics faced with child abuse, it’s nicer to think the religion is innocent when it isn’t. I don’t like to advertise my work, but please don’t avoid main things I’ve tried to say for secondary ones and chiefly what I have affirmed is that there are some surprising and important things to know in this area (and others like exorcism, healing, our understanding of the Temple) which I deal with in the forthcoming mentioned book, “Temple Mysteries and Spiritual Efficiency”. I believe Lee Grady should read the book and Andrew Strom should too for its chapter on shamanism and kundalini. I think with that I’ve said all that can and needs to be said by me.

  68. Mrs Luther Nov 4th 2010

    Thank you for your explanation Rollan, and we should look into it. I will do so. Many thanks.

  69. Francisco Nov 4th 2010

    Dear Tina Baxley:

    May the Lord continue to bless you mightily. Your testimony is powerful and a must read for all believers.

  70. John B Nov 4th 2010

    The main sin is lack of love, and part of that is lack of honesty. The whole homosexual issue is riven with dishonesty.
    I think “speaking out” against it is not really where one needs to go. One is somewhat moving onto territory where the enemy has set the ground rules in modern debate and you will have to de-construct the whole argument and then reconstruct the Truth.
    The main thing is that people should come to experience Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and all the other stuff will fall into place.
    Sure, the rules are self-evident is one looks at the Bible. And then, sure, the Lord Jesus came here more in mercy and forgiveness rather than condemnation.
    But, as with so many of these “controversial issues” it’s all a bit of a distraction from accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.
    Holiness unto the Lord will be part of His Lordship in one’s life.

  71. Francisco Nov 4th 2010

    Dear Tina Baxley:

    Your testimony is powerful! May the Lord continue to bless you mightily is my prayer.

  72. Stephen St. Louis Nov 4th 2010


    Paul’s views on slavery is actually a bad example. Unlike, the practice of homosexuality, Paul, to my knowledge, did not address whether slavery was sinful or not. His concern was not whether it should be abolished or not but how those who find themselves as christian slaves should behave towards their earthly masters. If you compare the two subjects in the context of how christians ought to behave, Paul’s message about homosexual practice is clear: it is sinful and should not be condoned or tolerated.

    As for your book, as I said before, you can give any excuse or explaination you want as to why someone is or has homosexual tendencies. Bottomline is that engaging in homosexual activity is wrong because God’s Word says it is. End of Story. There are no acceptable reasons for practicing it. Having said that many of the ways many christians behave towards homosexuality is also wrong.

    Homosexuality isn’t some special horrible sin that will give you an express ticket to Hell. It is viewed by God the same way EVERY sin is: as something He WILL NOT allow into His presence. The one who practices homosexuality will meet the same fate on Judgement Day as the Liar, the Cheater, the Murderer, the Adulterer and so on. Christians however tend to treat it as especially heinous and that HAS to stop. There are no little sins and if you can sluff off some other sin as no big deal and yet come down like the thunder of God himself on someone who is engaged in a homosexxual relationship, you are flat out wrong.

    Homosexuality isn’t the cause of moral decay in America. It’s the result (one of them at least) of it. Same goes for the rest of the world. It has flourished because, in my opinion, christians have been far quicker to shout it down then they have every other kind of immorality. It was like they suddenly decided to draw a line saying enough is enough. I got news for you. God drew the line waaaaaaay back there somewhere. He didn’t draw it at homosexuality. The only reason why it has become such a big deal is because finally the Enemy had a fight on his hands. We’ve been losing that fight not because he is stronger but because, we lost our best ground ages ago and now we have an uphill battle on a slippery slope.

    If you want to address the way Christians respond to homosexuality then go ahead. There’s lots of correcting to do. Just make sure you don’t try telling us we need to be tolerant and accepting. That’s a bold faced lie. We do need to be understanding. We do need to deal with it in love. We do need to speak the truth.

  73. Praise Yahshua!!

    It seems to me that the questions all must answer is this. Do we serve and have faith in an unchanging, sovereign, morally pure and set-apart, Creator/ GOD in which rests all power and judgment? and Do we affirm that this GOD whose name is Yahweh reveals Himself to us through the scriptures?

    If we affirm both of these statements then there are no grey areas.

    It matters not how we started life or what tendencies with which we were born.

    We need speak only HIS truth. We need however to walk in that truth if we hope for any power in our testimony.

    Hisservant rich

    Matthew 4:17

  74. Dear Brethren,

    I am very concerned about this tendency today to put the LOVE of God at odds with his HOLINESS! It is a satanic trick! God is love BUT he is also holy. God’s love gave the Lord Jesus to suffer the horrible penalty for our sins! This same Lord Jesus (who gave himself for us–the Just for the unjust) will cast all who refuse him and persist in their sins into the lake of fire!

    The love of God does not weaken or cancel his holiness.

  75. Rollan McCleary Nov 4th 2010

    Stephen St Louis,

    I am really silly to write further, I said I wouldn’t and I have no desire to, but I am rather sickened. You obviously haven’t even tried to read what I said, and I am sure wouldn’t have given a thought ( no one on this forum has so far as I can see and of course Grady’s article didn’t) to the fact that it was active homophobia had six youth suicides in America in September alone, and then you presume as a Christian to say poisonous, contradictory, things like,
    “Just make sure you don’t try telling us we need to be tolerant and accepting. That’s a bold faced lie. We do need to be understanding. We do need to deal with it in love. We do need to speak the truth”.

    Understanding? Love? Truth? How easily these words are said. One wonders are you some expert in applying them? Behind your words and sometimes in them I hear something fanatic. I suggest Christians have an absolute duty to learn tolerance of all manner of people but as I said they have shown murderous and violent intolerance to gays over the centuries, kidding themselves the while it was all the love, truth and understanding in the world that it wasn’t. It was the spirit of the inquisition that talked all the formularistic rubbish about these things while it let same sex lovers in Latin America be thrown to the wild dogs to eat because they are only “dogs” anyway. Fit for hell so it was charity to punish them in case it would save their souls! Did Christ anticipate any of this wickedness? The surprising answer is yes and there are reasons we haven’t been allowed to know and see it even when in plain view. If you can have an open mind on this and other things, you should indeed read the book I mentioned and frankly I think you almost badly need to. And now I really promise myself and everyone, I won’t say more no matter how disturbing I may find the responses.

  76. Tina Baxley Nov 4th 2010

    The love of God is His Holiness—For many years I have wanted to be like my heavenly Father.
    He started showing me who He is–1 Cor. 13:4-8 gives loves definition. God Is love. My favorite one is love Never fails, so in essence God never fails. He desires mercy not judgment and does Not think the way that we do, but encourages us to come up higher in our thinking and think the way that He does.
    Let me ask every one a question–when in sin, did He not have mercy on you? He did me, and therefore I want to be like Him and show His love and mercy.
    Perfection comes from love and casts out all fear. Yeshua did not lose any, and I believe that with all my heart, and am asking Him always to increase my faith.
    He has shown me a vision of many people in sinking sand–some were homosexuals–they were reaping corruption from sowing to the flesh– their hands were up, and I saw that as I prayed for them, they were being plucked out– not that my prayers are great, but that His mercy and love is great. He sees the heart, we only see the external. He commanded me to love so love is what I will do, because I know He wins.

  77. Kalev Nov 4th 2010

    Good article, we should speak out whenever necessary. To Ruth Farley, unfortunately you, and many others, misunderstand Grace and this “no longer under the Law”. The Law, Torah, is the standard by which we know what sin is and our need for a Savior, none other than Jesus the Messiah. Too many, over the years, have twisted the Apostle Paul’s teaching to live as they desire, not how Jesus wishes for us to live in His Light and Grace. Sin is sin no matter how you may personally feel about how you wish to live.

  78. ruth farley Nov 4th 2010


  79. Stephen St. Louis Nov 4th 2010

    Like I said: Go right ahead and write how we need to correct our behaviour. I certainly don’t condone violence or hatred against gays neither am I afraid to deal with the issue and say what I believe. I have a gay sister and a gay cousin. Both are either actively in a relationship or were. Neither given their families much information about it because their families don’t really want to know and would rather stick their heads in the sand especially my parents.

    I have told my sister what God’s Word says about homosexuality. She doesn’t hate me for it any more then I hate her for being gay. I pray for her allbeit probably not as much as I should but I’m not constantly on her case about her lifestyle. She does not profess to be a christian and she is definitely not saved and that bothers me far more then her sexual preference.

    One thing I think you are missing here and its a biggie. Like Andrew has said, and I agree, you can not be truly saved and return to sin and I would add continue sinning once the Holy Spirit has convicted you of your sin (feel free to correct me if I have that wrong, Andrew). If that is the case, and I feel it is, one CAN NOT commit violence against anyone regardless of who they are and what they stand for and call yourself a christian.

    Do I believe that those who lead the crusades and commited gross atrocities in the name of Christ were christian?

    Certainly not!

    Do I think the church who posted a sign out front advocating anti-semitism during the whole Passion of the Christ debate are christian?


    Do I even think that the vast majority of people who go to church and call themselves christian are saved?


    Am I being judgemental?


    Truth is, as the saying goes, “The world would be a very different place if only the Church would get saved!” The evidence of their salvation is not there, therefore I conclude they are not saved. If they are not saved they can’t, honestly, call themselves christians anymore then a Muslim that gets drunk every night and has bacon and eggs for breakfast every morning can call himself a Muslim.

    I call myself a christian. I do not advocate violence against gays or anyone else because it goes against God’s Word. I don’t turn a blind eye to sin especially my own because that also goes against God’s Word. I try to deal compassionately with those who’ve chosen a gay lifestyle because that’s what God’s Word says to do. I speak out against those who would advocate that there is nothing wrong with engaging in homosexual behaviour because that is what God’s Word says I am supposed to do. I do so in love because, gosh forbid, I actually care about their souls and where they are going to spend the rest of eternity.

    The problem with having an open mind is this: God’s mind is closed. He is a God’s of absolutes. He absolutely hates sin and His mind isn’t open to even the possibility of allowing it into heaven. We are to have the mind of Christ, so excuse me for having a closed mind when it comes to sin. You and your open mind can go where ever it wants to take you but I know where those many many roads all lead to. I prefer to stay close to my God and His mind.

  80. Praise Yahshua!!

    Rollan McCleary said: Understanding? Love? Truth? How easily these words are said. One wonders are you some expert in applying them? Behind your words and sometimes in them I hear something fanatic. I suggest Christians have an absolute duty to learn tolerance of all manner of people

    me; Sir none of this statement is in any way Christian. Every word of it drips of secularism.

    First if you were to do a study you would find the word tolerance is not an attribute of Yahweh. Strongs concordance doesn’t even list the word.

    And to quote Pilate: Joh 18:38 Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?”

    My answer and a Christians only answer is this:

    Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

    So to know Yahshua is to know the truth. All that is truth is of HIM and all truth is truly loving.

    i don’t believe anyone on here is at all harsh or unloving no one wishes for these souls to perish but for all of them to come unto repentance.

    We as Christians declare that there is NO WAY unto the Father except by the SON and that only through repentance from our trangressions against Yahwheh.

    So basically we can not have a dialogue when we do not even know or serve the same GOD/god.

    Hisservant rich

    Matthew 4:17

  81. Anna,

    I think you are suffering from a common malady. Namely, the “Mercy Malady.”

    You want to be inclusive, you want to embrace all, you want to nurture and receive and comfort all. When held in balance, I would say this is a very good thing.

    The problem with the “Mercy Malady” is that it cannot seem to understand that the God of mercy also promises to judge the earth, and to judge all unrighteousness. This God of mercy and judgment very clearly defines the kinds of things He will judge in His word. The same Bible from which we understand the mercies of God also speak so clearly about the righteousness and judgments of God.

    Those who suffer from the “Mercy Malady” are interesting, not only because of their inability to see the Word of God in it’s full counsel, but for another very obvious reason: their inconsistent application of their own distorted view of God’s mercy.

    For example, take our very well-meaning Anna. In seeking mercy for her friend, she gives very little mercy to those here she disagrees with. The harsh words of “condemnation and criticism” she finds fault with, she meets head on with an equal dispensation of her own criticism. The interesting thing about the “Mercy Malady” is that it misinterprets the promotion of “truth” as “fault-finding” and fights truth with it’s own brand of fault-finding. Anna finds us judgmental, and so she issues her own broad judgment, surmising, “Most of you would have condemned [my friend].”

    In this sense, it is duplicitous, if not hypocritical. It’s mercy is always very one-sided, and strangely gravitates toward the defense of unrighteousness. If mercy is supposed to be the single, guiding, overarching, plumb line of ALL things, seems those who are so against all this “judgmental talk” would show us a little more mercy instead of being so judgmental about our judgment. After all, aren’t we just poor, misguided souls who don’t understand the love of God? Shouldn’t we be pitied most of all?

    Those of us who would agree with Grady’s assessments about the homosexual agenda would never, ever think of addressing a homosexual with anything less than the dignity due them as a human being created in the image of the Almighty. Grady’s article is addressing the broader issue, not individuals, and there is a big difference.

    But dignity and respect for the individual does not mean coddling. It may mean some serious straight-talk. If the lifestyle is propelling one toward destruction, and Scripture is clear that it is, simple logic would indicate compelling language as part of the rescue plan. If someone is about to step backward off a cliff, you don’t say, “Hey fellow, kindly watch your step there.” You cry out, “STOP NOW!! YOU’RE ABOUT TO DIE!”

    If you fail to do so, you are not merciful…you are cruel and inhumane.

    Also, watch for another tactic expressed by those suffering from the “Mercy Malady.” We have seen it here with the contributor I am addressing. They love to take single, isolated, anecdotal cases…which may or MAY NOT be exceptional to Scripture…and then try make a broad generalization to the aggregate. Hermaphrodites, people born with XY displacements…these are rare cases that do require special mercies, but we do not generalize from them in such a way as to redefine the Bible. Really, it is just ridiculous to think we can, and those who try simply betray a deeper and broader agenda – the superimposing of their own humanistic tendencies upon the faith.


  82. Tina Baxley: Your testimony has me really crying. There are other issues that have not been dealt with here, but that are tearing people up. Specifically, the issues of the variant types of what is most properly called Harry Benjamin’s Syndrome. Those people, some of whom love God intensely with no known sin in their life, are thrown away by the churches and their families. They are not sexually active at all, and yet they suffer intensely, without help. The overall approach you have given us is the only thing that has truly been offered in help. Thank you.
    And Andrew, the various sexual variants (excluding my friend’s rare case of XY female – true hermaphroditism.), not involving active sexuality, are much more common than you have any idea of. And when they open their mouth about their problem, there is almost universal condemnation and being thrown out of churches and families. The only hope they have is, if they are able, to keep very quiet about it. Example: Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Anyone with that knows to keep their mouth closed or be thrown out. Note that I am speaking of those who are not sexually active in any deviant way, and love God with their whole being, and yet are thrown out and condemned. The church needs to deal with this travesty, and the only way I see involves a combination of what Tina Baxley has said, with supernatural healing from God. A large number (roughly 2/3) of people with these variants die physically because of the desperation leading to suicide, or to the breakdown of the physical body due to the intense emotional, spiritual, and physical stress. These people truly need healing from God as well as a tremendous amount of mercy and compassion, as Jesus tells us to do.

    Keep in mind that my friend mentioned earlier had no idea of her exact diagnosis until a few weeks ago, and yet was despised and rejected and condemned by her family, former friends, and many churches. She went from a 100K+ job to losing everything and walking the streets of one of our very hot cities. I myself directly saved her life a number of times, and have tried to have compassion on her.

    And to open another door, what about those who love God with all their hearts, are into no known sin, and yet are despised, condemned and rejected because they have Multiple Personality Disorder? Most of those are not able to find any help, but are simply thrown out of society, both Christian and otherwise. Again, the Compassion Tina Baxley taught us is so desperately needed.

    I realize that these issues I bring up do not deal with homosexuality, but more with the lack of mercy on those we truly do not understand, but who are intensely suffering. Instead, it is easier to lump them together with sexual sinners, and condemn everyone together. When will we as a church learn compassion and tender mercy?

  83. It seems that for those such as Gretchen no sin is bad or to be repented of. She forgets as with case of the adulteress who was forgiven, Jesus told her NOT to sin again !he says this time and time again.
    Simple it should be, but seemingly in the Christian world of today, anyone is allowed to sin and those who wish to help them repent are “judging” and “proud”.
    We can all be filled with self-pity saying adultery is natural, stealing, lying and yes divorce.
    Yes, indeed it IS natural and YES we are born with it but we must rise above it through the power of Jesus!!

  84. Tina Baxley Nov 4th 2010

    Someone touched on the woman who was caught in the act of adultery. Father showed me this in a different light.
    The adultery that she was caught in was spiritual adultery.
    She was caught worshiping an idol, which was a common practice then. They brought her to test Him and yet to stone her. When it was all over, He said to her go and sin no more–in other words, you are seeing the real God, His mercy and kindness etc– so worship Him and not some and not some idol of stone, wood or metal– in other words he revealed Himself to her and yet to others as well as they all left, because no one is without sin.
    His love for her and them covered their multitude of sins.
    God is a spirit and they that worship Him, do so in spirit and truth.

  85. Godly Christians judge the world by their lifestyle, not always their words.

    One man’s stand in Sodom condemned the whole area. He might have said things before but until he was forced into a situation where he had to take a stand, no one listened. But, God was listening, waiting for Lot. When he put his convictions into action, the fire fell.

    Don’t know what form the fire will take today, but it’s coming because there really are Godly people in this world. Apparently it doesn’t take very many. “One of a city, two of a family….”

  86. Tina Baxley Nov 4th 2010

    As for touching the fire falling down from heaven– The disciples wanted to do this yet Yeshua said to them, they knew not what manner of spirit they were, and rebuked them. Now we know His word says that if we do good to those who do us evil then we rain hot coals upon their heads, this is what He has revealed to me as the fire falling.
    We are quick to judge and to kill, yet He is quick to forgive and to heal and bring life.
    Why do we want to break the seals on each other when only Yeshua was found worthy to do so?
    He was without spot and blemish and believed that God could do all things. Lack of faith is a spot or blemish.

  87. This was a written in response to someone making a comment about living as a Christian homosexual. A justifying their lifestyle. The response comes from a good friend of mine.

    I’ve lived the majority of my life as a gay man and was in a relationship just as you described. I was told the majority of my life that I was an abomination and that God didn’t love me. I was screamed at more than once that I was damned to… hell. I too said the words that you have posted and I saw no problem with my lifestyle and I knew God loved me but oh how I was deceived that because He loved me that I could go on living how I wanted to live. Man didn’t reveal the deception but God revealed it through His Son Jesus. You see yes God loves us yet though we were still sinners in total rebellion and it is out of His love that He sent His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. One who claims to have accepted Jesus is one who understands that their old life that was lived apart from God they now are to die to and live in the new life that we have in Christ, a life that we are to consider ourselves dead to sin and alive in Christ. I can’t find any scripture that gives us the right to continue to live in our rebellion no matter what our lifestyle of sin is. We are not to be driven by our desires but we are to be led by the Spirit. But we justify our sinful life and we make God in our image in order to feel accepted and redeemed. We worship the created and not the Creator. It was not easy for me when the Lord started to reveal to me that the life I was living was not pleasing to Him again I didn’t listen to man but the more I was in His Word and the Truth was being exposed to my heart I soon surrendered my life to Him. I could go on and on with Scripture but I won’t here. I will say we all need to read Romans 6. If I held to the belief that I can continue to live a life of sin not just homosexuality but any sin that is a lifestyle and still be accepted by God then why did Jesus have to come and experience the rejection and the death that He did if a new life doesn’t come forth for us because of His death and resurrection and the out pouring of His Spirit. By dismissing Jesus and the power of His resurrection then we stand in rebellion against the true Living God. It’s not man’s teaching it is what Jesus declared. He is the only way to God. Those that believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. We can live a temporal life satisfied with our temporal desires but that’s all we will have is this temporal life and when we breath our last breath we will experience an eternity separated from the God of Love because we chose to live a temporal life while on this earth and rejected His Son Jesus that came to give us eternal life. We all were created for eternity and provision was made through Jesus for us to be restored to God so that we will live for eternity with Him and while we are here on this earth we realize that we are just passing through and we are not to be entangled with our fleshly desires. The flesh only knows how to do one thing and that is to die. It feeds off the temporal things of life, it drags us further away from truth and leads us on a path of destruction, it deceives us into thinking that we can feast off our desires and live however we want to because God loves us. God help us. We have a right to live however we want it’s not up to me or man to attack others on how they choose to live. I respect you as a gay man but as a follower of Christ I am called to up hold truth even when it’s not popular. The message of the true Gospel is not one that many will receive. As true believers we don’t belong to the Unity Church or the New Age Church where God accepts all, no we belong to the Body of Christ to those that have surrendered their life to Christ, who have heard the call of a disciple to deny ourselves, pick up our cross and to follow Him. A life apart from Christ is a life in rebellion to God and in that rebellion God loves us and pursues us with an intense passion to reveal Himself to us through His Son Jesus so that we may have a new life in Him and that our eternity is spent with Him. I pray that your eyes would be open not to hear what man says but to see Jesus and to accept Him for who He is, The Son of God, our Redeemer, our Lord and Savior. When I truly started allowing truth to breakthrough my lover told me, “Robb what you have found would eventually take you away because you are becoming a new man.” I would respond,” no God loves me just the way I am.” Oh how true both statements were because of God’s love He began a work in me that will not be completed until I am with Him but He has changed me as I have willing laid down my life for Him. No great love than this that a man would lay down his life for his friend. Jesus said that and He did that and He requires that of us that we would willingly lay down our lives for Him. The Word declares that if we love Him we will obey Him. I’ll close with 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 “Or do you not know that the unrighteousness will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexual immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God. And such were some of you, But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” Amen! Also forgive those that are out there that keep preaching the Christian Life, those standing on the corners damning everyone to hell. For too long the church has done it backwards we preach the Christian Life first instead of Preaching the Gospel. We must start preaching the Gospel first show people their need for a Savior if they accept Christ then teach them to obey all that Christ has taught. Ultimately it’s not men that draws people to Christ it’s the Holy Spirit and when one accepts Christ He has the Spirit of God in Him that teaches him to obey that which he is learning. May the Truth be held up in this generation and may multitudes come to a saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus. I am going to post my testimony too so please take time to read through it. My life was not impacted by religion, no it was impacted by the Living God who revealed His Son to me and in that revelation and knowledge of His love for me I willingly laid down my life for Him.

    link to testimony: http://truefreedomfellowship.com/Robb_s_Testimony.html

  88. We agree with Brother Grady’s article. It is soundly based on the Word of God. We all should have a Godly love toward the gays but that must be centered on wanting to help them be delivered from their sinful life, the same as wanting to help all sinners be delivered by the Name of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.

    In my 50 plus years of ministry into over 50 nations I have seen God delivered people from every kind of sinful life. Sin is sin! And all sin brings immediate spiritual death.

    I do disagree, however, with Brother Grady’s opening statement in #1. We are not born sinners, nor do we have any “causation” within us to sin. Neither are we born in a state of Salvation. Both sin and salvation require an intelligent decision or choice. The statement about David is used by most, but if you check out the Hebrew you will find it is his Mother that was in a state of sin when he was born.. Sin is not transfered by blood or flesh. The Bible clearly shows that sin is a CHOICE by a person, who at that moment, knows better, but goes ahead anyway to fulfill the list of the flesh, lust of the eyes or pride of life.

    Jesus took the little children in his arms and blessed them, and said, “for this is the Kingdom of God.” What? The Kingdom of God filled with LITTLE SINNERS? If a child is born a sinner, and dies after his birth, God must send them to Hell. But theologians have invented a story that they are “convered with the blood of Jesus.” Book, Chapter and verse please!

    Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. Prov. 22:6

  89. Hi there! You see, I am heterosexual, and I love beautiful women! If I see a lovely woman in a crowd, I cannot help but go over and introduce myself – not right away – but, after I have seen if she has a boyfriend, whatever, you know.

    But, although heterosexual, if I found a lady [first and foremost] I felt after a period of time meeting and going out to dinner, movie [something I don’t do at all, alone], or play whatever, if constantly we both look into each others eyes, and we know after 6 months or so, all is so right, then I would ask her to marry me.

    During the time of dating, I know in my body and mind, I will want to be with her, because ultimately, the gift of love can only be consummated in the right manner, OK? And so, I do not condemn a man for being homosexual in his heart, because although not homosexual, I am a healthy man, who understands the desires of the body, when a guy and a girl are together. You therefore who is homosexual, may find another man or woman very nice; however, you must be even as I am in my heterosexuality.

    And too, I have studied much about the so-called paraphilias, and at one time, this was called a psychological disorder, as early as back in 1969, and its reason, is because since the ’60’s, the family has fallen apart, and when a woman has no husband, her son is unable to ascertain how a man acts, as he ages becoming a man. He takes on Mom’s mature actions, and of course is thought by many to be gay. He IS NOT gay, but finally in his life, ONLY GAYS will take an interest in him! Then, when the act of sex [most men do not call it lovemaking] is sought, it is most often given. After this occurs a few times, the man shall concur he is gay! What a tragedy, but this is how it goes today: Family falls apart; little boy looks to Mom for how to become adult; takes her idiosyncrasies and brings them to school; all feel he is a gay, although in his heart there is nothing of the kind in him; finally, having been beaten up a number of times, and called Gay, his only friends become gays!

    This is a sad story, and needs to be told more often, because maybe we can help before the physical stuff begins.

  90. Brother Bob Reid, November 4th:

    Hi there, brother!

    You are right in your presentation; however, Adam’s sin at the Tree, became in him, a sinful nature! Since that time, sin is not passed down, the error of Original Sin, that all are blamed for Adam’s sin. However, because we are all born into a sinful nature, it is much easier that we become “selfish” as we grow, and selfishness is the very virus, if you will, that causes selfish actions.

    We have to begin to sin of our own volition, before the sinful nature condemns us. Thanks again, brother Bob.

  91. No one is born a sinner. All are born upright. Sin is not a substance that can be transfered from Adam to us through the flesh or through seamen. Sin is a choice. All humans become sinners because they choose to sin. The fallen world around us and the devil and other sinners around us temp us to fall into sin.

    Ezekiel 18:20 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    By having this false doctrine of original sin helps homosexuals have a foot hold to blame God for their homosexuality. The truth is that they choose to become homosexual when they were tempted.

  92. A few short items:

    JSL, you have chosen to say some things about me which are not true. I choose not to defend myself, but to leave that with God. I forgive you. I also wish you God’s richest blessings.

    Second, the last short posting under the name Anna was not me ( I have not been home when that short post was posted.)

    Third, and most important, Tina Baxley! various things you have said speak strongly to my spirit; to the Holy Spirit in me. Thank you. I strongly wish there were a way we could continue to comunicate directly, such as by email, but I do not know if that is permitted here. I will take the chance: ahoovahyah at yahoo dot ca. This is meant for Tina Baxley, if you wish to privately commuicate.

  93. Terry Casen Nov 5th 2010

    I’ve read through this blog and found not even one reference to the possiblity/reality of homosexuality have a demonic origin. Until the American church recognizes the reality of demons and their influence in human nature, we will never, ever be truly victorious over anything, much less the sin of homosexuality.

  94. Seeker Nov 5th 2010

    This is in reference to the above comments regarding those believers who are married and there has been a divorce from a previous marriage. What should one do who finds his or her self in this situation? According to the Word one does commit adultery when marrying another who is divorced. How does one truly repent of this sin? Can this be forgiven or do they continue to live in adultery as long as they are together? Does the adultery end only after the death of the first spouse or the death of one of the two who are currently in this adulterous situation?

    David committed adultery with Bathsheba and later took her as his wife after he had her husband Uriah killed. Thus, she was no longer espoused to another. If Uriah had lived and David had taken Bathsheba to be his wife, would David have continued to live in adultery? Was David more forgivable than a person who is today in this situation (married to another person who has been divorced in the past and their former spouse still lives), because of the fact that he also had the former spouse murdered? Adulterers and murderers will have no place in the Kingdom of Heaven, where does this leave David?

    What about the children that have come forth from these unions? Should all those true born again believers that find themselves in this situation break up their homes in order to right this wrong? Is the pain and heartache that children will suffer as a result of these break ups justified as punishment for sin?

    Please do not share opinions where this is concerned.

    Seek the voice of the Holy Spirit and respond only if He gives you a response. We will all be held accountable for every word that we bring forth, spoken or otherwise.

    Lord I pray that you will speak wisdom to and through your sons and daughters where this matter is concerned. Amen!

  95. HappyTrails Nov 5th 2010


    Whoa! Are some still on “milk”, when they should be teaching meat?


    The fear one has justifies the behavior of themselves and others. According to God’s word, there is ACCOUNTABILITY upon the knowledge of sin. The word tells us that WE ALL KNOW WE ARE SINNERS, WE ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE, OUR CONSCIENCE TELLS US THIS IS SO.
    Scripturally, small children and adults who have the minds & understanding of a small child ARE NOT HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT THEY DO NOT KNOW OR UNDERSTAND. After the age of accountability, we make our choices based on our knowledge (LIGHT) OF GOD. WE ARE ALL HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE LIGHT (KNOWLEDGE OF GOD) THAT WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN…….WHETHER WE RECEIVE IT OR BELIEVE IT OR NOT!

    The reason evil is in creation is because ALL CREATION HAS BEEN GIVEN FREE CHOICE. Without free choice , there can be no LOVE. IT IS FREEDOM TO CHOOSE GOOD OR EVIL THAT HAS BROUGHT EVIL UPON CREATION.


    I will repeat my other comment above:
    Ammy Brettig and Lindie Gibson
    (That is the punishment for homosexuality, as well as ALL sin, by the way.)

    We ALL can find someone to BLAME for our sins! It starts in childhood! But before we can be set FREE from our sins, God expects us to take responsibility for them.

    Calling sin a DISEASE is calling God a liar and the death of Jesus is INSUFFICIENT FOR ALL SINS.


  96. HappyTrails Nov 5th 2010

    Terry Casen….Yes, there are demons in this world and residing in PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN BORN AGAIN.


  97. L. Grady says,

    “Sorry, but timidity on this issue is not acceptable. The sins we
    avoid addressing from the pulpit are the sins that will thrive
    unchallenged in our culture. We must develop some backbone
    and speak the truth in love.

    Hear me, friends, that is exactly what has happened in the church regarding remarriage after divorce. I know…..no one wants to hear it. But no one wanted to step on toes, so we side-stepped the whole issue – and look where it got us – it’s the big white elephant that no ministry or pastor today dares to speak about, and it is running rampant in our churches and is even blessed and sanctioned by the masses!

    Call it prophetic or call it common sense, but this issue of homosexuality in the church WILL BE ACCEPTED in all church institutions, unless we repent and TURN AWAY FROM past sexual sins (including remarriage while a covenant spouse is still alive.). There is a BIG price to pay for all of us who have side-stepped this issue. We cannot pick and choose which sexual sins are wrong and which ones are acceptable these days. Some people say, “well if you ask forgiveness for committing the sin of remarriage after divorce, then you can stay in the marriage, especially, if you weren’t a Christian during that first marriage”. And I say to you, then homosexuals just need to repent of their “incorrect marriage”, and then they can stay in the marriage. We speak out of both sides of our mouths, and God is not pleased with us. The blogger before me talked about the children. What about children that are adopted/born through in-vitro into homosexual relationships? Does that mean the homosexual couple shouldn’t break up because of the children? It is very sad to think of where all these sins of ours leave our children.

    I know this comment will infuriate many of you out there, but please read your Bible: Luke 16:18; Romans 7:1-3. Study it, agonize over it. Please, stop looking for loopholes like the homosexuals are doing. They seem to find them right in the Word of God – which proves that we can make the Bible give us a loophole for anything that we are intent on doing. It’s a very, very hard word, I know, but it is true and God will hold nothing but blessings for those who choose to obey and turn away from their sinful lifestyle. We can’t lose by following His Word! Gpd will protect our children if we obey Him!

    With almost every point that Grady brings up in his article, the same could be said about the remarriage issue. Interesting that Grady even quotes I Cor 6…”Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals will inherit the kingdom of God.” If you read the 2 verses that I mentioned earlier (and there are more), you will read who He calls adulterous. All that we as Christians have done is change the meaning of the word “adultery”, so that remarriages after divorce are excluded. My heart is broken over what seems to be a moot issue in the church already – with the homosexual issue close on the heels….

    As Grady said at the end of his article. “Regardless of how loudly the world trumpets its hedonistic agenda-and no matter how many backslidden preachers dance to the tune-
    God has the final say on this matter.”

  98. Andrew Nov 5th 2010

    Rollan – you seem rather unwilling to come out and actually tell where you stand – but clearly you are an “expert” who has written a “book” on this subject. You do seem rather ‘open’ to homosexuality being OK, if I read you right.

    All I can say is if your “book” clearly contradicts the truly great Book – the Bible – then I won’t be reading it – and I encourage readers here not to waste their money either.

    To me it is abundantly clear in Scripture that not only is homosexual behaviour “sinful”, but it seems to be a sin of particular abhorrence to God and to all true believers.

    Please don’t come on here trying to sell your “book” if it contradicts the basic teachings of Scripture.
    I later found the item below when doing a Google search on Rollan’s name-

    “Jesus was gay, says academic
    May 29 2003

    Jesus Christ was gay because of the position of the planets at the time of his birth, a Brisbane academic says.

    Rollan McCleary, who was awarded his doctorate today from the University of Queensland, also believes one and possibly three of Jesus’s disciples were also gay.

    Dr McCleary, who will launch a book on his findings next month, said today he based his opinions on St John’s gospel and on Christ’s astrological chart based around the date, place and time he was born.”

    Rollan – that sounds like you. We have to conclude that it is. – Very grievous that you did not state your actual position earlier, sir.

    Andrew Strom.

  99. At 15 years old, my son announced he was gay. He was convinced he was born that way… still is. As such, he could not understand why God would do that to him and turned away from the faith. He identifies himself this way so when we rejected his sexuality, he believed we rejected him.

    For years, I tried to understand what happened, but could not. One day, I attended a conference put on by Focus on the Family called “Love Won Out.” It turns out that a young child, when rejected by the father (which he was) develops a “gender identity disorder” at a time when they do not know what gender they are. At puberty, this gets eroticized. This is the making of a homosexual. I could go on, but I won’t. Divine intervention is the only real cure. These folks have a sickness. Today, he knows I love him, and accepts that I don’t accepts his condition.

  100. Phillip schrader Nov 5th 2010

    I am constantly amazed to what extremes people will go to.So they can achieve what their earthly desires demand of them.It is like being around a junkie who is trying to legitimize their addiction.For anyone who has an ear and BRAIN read 2Timothy3;14-4-5.This should ansewer all the itchy ears.The media,news,and the so-called entertainment industry is infested with the homosexual agenda.They have over a period of decades pushed this agenda to the churchs,schools(ie) hr5430.hr3017 these bills came from a homosexual congressman named polis from Colorado.They have attacked the religous order’s of the lutheran,episcopal,and some penecostal’s.Thru this they have caused division BUT they have also strengthened these religions thus we now have the NALC.Satan works the hardest in the churchs.Thats where the cleaned souls are.

  101. Andrew Nov 5th 2010

    Jo-Anne – I truly think this is correct. Well said – and it makes a big difference to how we reach out to these people if we know that this is so often what has affected them as a young person. Deep forgiveness of their father may be the starting point.

    Truly – unforgiveness of a parent and “Rebellion” go hand in hand.

    The cause of much misery and darkness in the earth.

  102. Homsexuality is a condition, not a sin. Homosexual acts are sinful. Many homosexuals remain celibate but that doesn’t change the fact that they’re homosexual and they didn’t choose to be. The homosexual condition is not a choice. What person in their right mind would choose homosexuality? In fact, heterosexuality isn’t a choice, either. Nobody is given a choice. I believe there are varying kinds/degrees of homosexuality and various causes. I have wept and prayed with devout Christians who struggled with homosexuality. Some have overcome temptation through faith in Christ and others still struggle. We cannot reach the homosexual until we first love and accept him/her. You gotta catch ’em before you can clean ’em. I have homosexual loved ones, both friends and relatives. I give them God’s truth in love and they listen to me because I accept them. I cannot change anybody. Only God can. I accept the homosexual but not his/her lifestyle. I entertain them in my home. But I don’t want to watch their demonstrations of affection with a same-sex partner any more than I want to watch a heterosexual couple billing and cooing. It’s bad taste to say the least. I would not have a practicing gay as a pastor for a number of good practical reasons. And spiritually speaking, to be effective a pastor should be above reproach. Concerning divorce and remarriage, God can and does bless second marriages after a divorce. The evidence is all around us. As a Jew, Jesus taught the law of Moses but He is the fountain of grace and truth. Scripture tells us the law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. How can the godly woman who leaves a violent and profane abuser for the safety of both herself and the children and later marries a believer be accused of sin. What’s so sacred about an unholy alliance that she should stay with the abuser? Paul’s gospel plainly states that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. There are legitimate scriptural grounds for divorce including the injunction to not be yoked together with an unbeliever. Only God can judge motives and He is infinite in mercy. He judges righteously. I’m all for letting Him be the Judge.

  103. To SEEKER:
    This is not to answer your question, but to add to it.

    The Old Testament law specifically forbade anyone divorced from remarrying their original spouse if that spouse had remarried, and then for example, that other spouse died.

    So I ask, what is one to do in that situation, where against their will, and not involving adultery or anything like that –what are they required to do? Must they remain single for the rest of their life, even if God did not grant to them the grace to remain honourably single?

    I am simply trying to add more fuel to the fire of your question. I am not attempting to answer it.

  104. HappyTrails Nov 5th 2010

    So homosexualtiy is CAUSED by the sins of the fathers?

    Let’s see….I believe that pretty much goes back ALL THE WAY TO THE FIRST ADAM…..AS GOD SAYS IN SCRIPTURE!


    If I watch my parents do drugs; drink; commit adultery; lie; murder; steal; whatever…..IT’S THEIR FAULT THAT I CHOOSE TO SIN…….EVEN THOUGH I KNOW WHAT GOD CALLS SIN?

    If I have ADD or ADHD, it’s the fault of my disease that I CHOOSE TO SIN……EVEN THOUGH I KNOW WHAT GOD CALLS SIN?

    If I am drunk, it’s the fault of the alcohol that I CHOOSE TO SIN……EVEN THOUGH I KNOW WHAT GOD CALLS SIN?


    I believe this is what I am reading in some of these comments……DELUSION.

  105. Andrew Nov 5th 2010

    Sin is sin

    It does have causal links. To deny this is to deny the obvious.

    The “father” relationship has very very often been found to be part of it. Or childhood abuse, etc. All of it sin. All of it needs deep repentance and renunciation

    God bless!


  106. I think it was pr Michael…(what’s the PR?) who said it, but something we should discuss outside of this thread, because I believe his opinions of ‘proof’ of believer via ‘speaking in tongues’ is wrong on every level.
    I only mention this because the christian church teaches all kinds of way out ideas on truth and with the little leaven in every message, it ends up blowing up so big that there’s no truth in it.
    Homosexuality is one of those subjects where ‘christians’ who endorse homosexuality and liberalism, are far away from the truth and in essence, deny His truth & power by willingly ignoring His laws.
    Homosexual tolerance is preached like gospel in our schools and there is no resistance, especially from the 501(C) christian churches that prefer to keep their precious tax breaks over standing on the truth and fighting back. Isn’t that our purpose as believers and witnesses of His truth? To stand and defend His truth to the world that doesn’t care?

    Can you imagine yet what it’s going to be like in the coming tribulation? If its this bad now, and it is, how much worse is it going to be? I guess we’re ALL going to find out soon enough. :)

    God Bless y’all.

  107. HappyTrails Nov 5th 2010

    How interesting that many on this website proclaim THE WORD, THE WORD, THE written word is SOLA SCRIPTURA…….until it comes to a subject they want to JUSTIFY, then there are EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES THAT “CAUSED” US TO COMMIT SIN.

    Blaming others for our sins IS A SIN.


    Do you see how this blaming others, or circumstances, or situations, becomes CIRCULAR REASONING? NOT AT ALL BEING ALIGNED WITH GOD’S WORD.

    Unholy flesh is not allowed into the Presence of God…..those who deny sin is sin will remain outside the gates.

  108. Tina Baxley Nov 5th 2010

    If God has imputed His righteousness to us, why is He going to turn around and impute our sin to us?? Why bother to save us at all?
    As for my sins, I just agree with God that the heart is wicked beyond measure. Now God and I are in agreement and can walk together. Then I ask of Him His heart, so that I may grow to be a spiritual child, created in His image.
    Every seed reproduces after its own kind to include Gods.
    His seed is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, against such, there is no law. If I sin then i can confess it and be washed of it.
    I cling to Him and he corrects me if I am wrong.

  109. I agree Matt – Can anybody provide one scripture that clearly says, We are BORN in sin and with a “sinful nature”? Also you will not find sinful nature in the Greek because it wasn’t written in the original manuscript, “flesh” is the word that is used, which does not mean sinful nature.

    Sin originates in the heart, just as Jesus said.

    And how about aborted babies, and the millions of children who die everyday from disease and famine, are they born in sin? If they are then Hell should be overflowing with children.. But didn’t Jesus say, “suffer not the children to come unto me, for theirs IS the kingdom”.

  110. to seeker and anna and others. There are scriptural grounds for divorce. [Matthew 19;9] [There are none for homosexuality] Both can be repented of and forgiven. An excellent book on homosexuality to read is “Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth” by Jeffrey Satinover published by Baker Books.

    For those struggling with the question of divorce I QUOTE from an article titled “Divorce – A Plea for Compassion”

    God hates divorce! [Malachai 2:16]. Marriage was to be a picture of the covenant between God and His people. God’s ideal did not include divorce, as Jesus pointed out to those who ware wanting to justify divorce “for [just] any reason” [Matthew 19:3] Yet God said of Israel “I put her away and gave her a certificate of divorce ” [Jerimiah 3:8] God therefore is a divorcee.

    God hates the NECESSITY for divorce. He hates the sin which causes it. He did not intend for there to be divorce. Neither did He intend for there to ve violence, trauma, deceit or infidelity. Some marriages are a total traversty of what God intended and in no way reflect the bond between God and His people. God loves unconditionally, but He does not bind Himself in covenant unconditionally, not even under the New Covenant. [see Hebrews 10;26-29] After years of patient forbearance with Israel’s faithlessness and disregard of the covenant, He finally divorced her.

    We should therefore be careful about taking a hardline stance towards the dissolution of the marriage covenant. Divorce in itself is not a sin, it is brought about by sin. Sometimes divorced people have been very much sinned against. They should not be made to feel that they are 2nd class or failed Christians. If they’ve been in a bad marriage relationship for a long time, they’ve probably had to exercise more love and patience and forgiveness than some Christians have to do in a life time.

    When David ate the forbidden showbread in the tabernacle he saw past the letter of the law, to God’s mercy and provision. Jesus used the incident as an example to the legalists that God desires mercy not sacrifice [Matthew 12:3-7] God’s over-riding principle is always mercy. David’s act did not lead to wholesale descration of the Sanctuary and God didn’t condemn him, though there may have been some priests who would have preferred that he starve.

    While deploring the current trend and the escalation of divorce in our society, let us at least still allow that there instances when it is allowable. In His teaching on divorce Jesus was condemning the school of thought that men could divorce their wives for any reason at all and marry again, as many times as they pleased – the kind of serial monogamy that is prevalent today.

    Divorce for the Christian should certainly be the last resort. Forgiveness doesn’t mean that one has to stay in a destructive situation. covenant calls for commitment by BOTH parties……

    Jesus always pointed to and upheld God’s ideals, but then He went to the Cross to pay for all the failings of our human frailty. He brought God’s ideal and His compassion together. In the Cross –
    Mercy and truth have met together
    Righteousness and peace have kissed each other” Psalm 85:10

    A good scripture to read is 1 Corinthians :7;1-16
    The Catholic Church at least allows for annumment and remarriage, recognizing that there are instances when a true marriage was not contracted eg where one party has no ability or intention of keeping the covenant or had no understanding of the nature of the convenant entered into. Other denominations do not have that option so there is only divorce available.
    Finally Jesus is the only judge and He knows our hearts.
    “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”

  111. Sally Nov 5th 2010

    Tyrone – I gave one such scripture. Perhaps you missed my above comment –

    “Tyrone – The KJV says we were “shapen in iniquity” and conceived in sin (Psalm 51:5). Yes, we were born with sinful natures. If you have children, you know that “foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction will drive it far from him. (Prov 22:15)” This foolishness is sinfulness that a parent must correct and discipline in order to trail up the child in the way he should go. Children are naturally selfish and think only of themselves first. This is sinful and natural for all of us.

    If we weren’t born with a sinful nature, then why do we need salvation and rebirth?”

    Also, this passage of scripture in Romans chapter 6 –

    Romans 5:6-14
    6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

    8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

    12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    I’m not sure the point of bringing this up anyway? Are we not sinners? And how do you believe we became sinners? And once more I will ask – Why do we need a Savior if we are not sinners? Do you believe that we become sinners by being around other sinners?

    The scriptures clearly state here that “by one man sin entered into the world” and that “ALL have sinned.”

  112. Mimi

    You post is overloaded with ideas and opinions that have no basis in scripture whatsoever. Once again the bible is clear on homosexuality and it does not differentiate between the condition and the acts. And yes one does have a choice because one is not born that way. Just like any other sin I have a choice on whether to keep on doing what I am doing.

  113. Sally Nov 5th 2010

    Another thought on “sinful nature” –

    Jesus was born without sin and without a “sinful nature,” but He got His blood from His Father God, as all babies get their blood from the paternal side.

    This is why he was born sinless – Because His blood line was from His heavenly Father.

  114. Hi Believer.
    First i have been a “pentecostal” pastor for over 43 years, hence i take the liberty of putting “pr” before my name. forgive me this indulgence.
    I am not sure that Andrew is happy about doctrinal disputes here? like you say it can lead to what i refer to as “bun fights”
    I Do believe there is only one way (that is what Jesus declared) I believe i know – buy His grace – what it is, but i do not believe I nor the group i fellowship with, are the only ones!
    How ever here goes, no offence intended.
    I agree with you, the “tongues question” is important -I would add, maybe more so than many credit.
    Let me say that in the 50’s when i was first introduced to this question. the orthodox churches in our area (and i have reason to believe that this was widespread ) Actively preached that “tongues” was most likely “of the devil” Now days, they all seem to have “charismatic” movements inside their churches!. What changed? Did the devil win? or were they wrong? (!/we can all be wrong at times)
    David Wilkinson in Cross and the Switchblade tells how those young addicts who had the “tongues experience” mostly all came off their addiction quickly without doing cold turkey! In our fellowship this has also been our experience and as a result all of our some 40,000 here in Oz and abroad are “spirit filled”
    I also came off nicotine addiction instantly the day i had the experience. At the same time i was delivered from a growing dependence on alcohol and a filthy mouth!. no one visibly or verbally cast any “demons” from me to achieve this miraculous turn around. I believe we are delivered by the power of God and Jesus won the battle victory foe us at Calvary, and we ALL should be recipients of that “same Jesus” miracle victory! You can visit our web site for a full understanding of where i now come from http:/www.rci.org.au There will no doubt be things there you may not agree with, but go to the personal story page, and thank the Lord for things He is doing amongst His people, We (as a group) are not exclusive in these stories, but just a part of the now hundreds of thousands who in these last days can testify of The Lord’s personal intervention in their lives. A common theme amongst these people is that they all seem to be in some way linked to the “tongues movement-question” Should we be taking note of this? Perhaps like Thessalonians of acts 17 be searching the scriptures to seek the answer to the “tongues” question?
    I do believe that if man will hear, the Holy Ghost baptism (not excluding scripture by any means – they walk hand in hand) is the answer for any sexual deviation – indeed all of mankind’s problems -..The Promise of The Father.
    Pr Michael

  115. Sally,

    You have discussed the sinful nature so well. Have you studied all the scripture that speak to the glorious fact that when Christ Himself comes to the soul after true repentance we become free from sin?

    Christ’s whole purpose in coming unto us was to deliver each from their own sins;

    Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Act 3:26 …God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
    Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
    Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission (freedom, liberty)of sins.
    Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem (free)us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    He said He would do this by indwelling the soul of a man/woman (who met His terms of true repentance and surrender)

    Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
    Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    2Co 6:16 …God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
    Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts…
    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: …

    Surely a living, Holy, pure, righteous, Christ would have a powerful impact in a life to be just like Him!

    By His life being shed abroad in our hearts we would be separated from our sins and self rule( a true kingdom change in our hearts from our rule to His rule)

    Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

    1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    Do not these scripture attest to the fact that a life lived with Christ Himself indwelling produces a life that is free from the bondages of sin? This is the “rest” that is described in Hebrews- free from sin and alive in Christ- joy unspeakable and full of glory!

    Perhaps the church should change the debate of habitually proving our right to sin (by our indwelling nature)and debate the side of holiness, righteousness, purity, blameless, and freedom from sin. (by his indwelling nature) I don’t think very many have even thought in these terms. Perhaps this is why there is so much sin in the church. Sinners sitting in the pews thinking their “Christians” but proving they are sinners by all the sin they are bound in-adultery, homosexuality, fornication, etc, etc,. Do we really think these sins are produced by a heart that has the living, Holy, righteous, loving, powerful God in residence? Think again! Please, please lives depend on it! As well as the glory and honor of the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords!

    Jeri woods

  116. Sally Nov 5th 2010


    Perhaps you missed the conversation above where Tyrone and Matt were speaking of having a “sinful nature” not being scriptural. I was simply addressing this issue and showing in scriptures where we indeed are born with a sinful nature.

    Not meaning to dwell on being sinful, nor am I condoning sin or homosexuality. If you read all of my posts you will see where I stand.


  117. Randall Nov 5th 2010

    I would like to make a couple of more comments. Terry Casan mentioned that no one had mentioned possible demonic origins of homosexuality. I would like to ask Terry to look for my article, the spirit definitely was homosexual and it waited for an opportunity of moral trauma to pounce upon me, the unsuspecting victim.

    Worse, I went to many pastors for 26 years aware that something was amiss, but it wasn’t until I met the prophetic office that the condition was properly identified, by a gift called “discerning of spirits” The pastors were not able to recognize the true condition, but to this day I am not sure why.

    I am glad that Rollan McCleary is still reading these comments, perhaps the Holy Spirit is prompting him to do so.

    I wish to point out to him, that my story is factual, and not an extreme example, I have talked to other people. Tina Baxley’s testimony is very pertinent. Since about 1/3 of Jesus Christ’s ministry was in deliverance, clearly there is a problem with people being oppressed and even possessed that even continues today.

    I would be interested whether or not Rollan agrees that powerful demonic forces exist (as Paul writes) which influence large segments of mankind today.

    – Randall

  118. HappyTrails Nov 5th 2010

    Sally…….Great truths on original sin…..Thank you for the Light you have given to this conversation!

  119. krady Nov 5th 2010

    For those who say it is ok to have homosexual tendencies as long as you do not act upon them-much like the unmarried heterosexual- I am reminded of a conversation with my father many years ago regarding this very issue and the stance of the Roman Catholic Church regarding it. My dad said that it was OK to be a homosexual priest as long as they did not act on their urges in other words as long as they remained celibate. I have long believed this sin is demonically influenced. It didn’t make any kind of sense to me that these “urges” could be controlled, in fact they could become even more deviant in some cases. I told him I thought it was very foolish for Catholic Seminaries to take this stance. Years later we see what how very foolish it was. Pederast priests have been in the news for many years now and they continue to be exposed. How tragic to the lives of these unsuspecting children.
    I’m not saying every homosexual is a pederast but every pederast is a homosexual. This is a sin (like many others) that has far reaching tragic consequences.
    To those who think homosexuals were born that way. OK. However, there is also research out there that links a gene anomaly with serial killers…so should we carry your argument to its logical conclusion? Does not the serial killer have as much right as others to live their lives as God created them?
    ” Homosexuals are born with those cells and have a real battle and have to find their walk with the Lord. It was never their choice and have had very difficult times but are at peace with who they are and have come to accept mans judgement.”

    God in His wisdom allows us to go through certain things so that when, with His help, we come out on the side in victory we can share and help lift others out of similar circumstances. This is evident with those testimonies on this thread.

  120. Craig Edelmann Nov 5th 2010

    I loved this article. For too long Christians have withheld the truth because they didnt want to be combative with homosexuals. Well, that combat is the war we are in between good and evil. If we dont do battle , sin will run rampant. The time has come for the truth to be told. Our God is on his way her shortly and to not preach his word the way he desires is to slap God in the face and say “we know better”. I have trumpeted for some time now that it is the Church that has dropped the ball where the Gospel is concerned! We have the word and it needs to be given to a lost world. Not so the church is popular but so that souls may be saved. When we put popularity and keeping the pew’s full because of finances ahead of the doctrine of Christ, you cease doing the work ordained by God.

    There is not much time left to get it right. We need to sift through which ministers out there are actually spirit lead or are doing this just because THEY believe they are.

  121. Andrew Nov 5th 2010

    I believe the vast majority of the time Homosexuality has demons involved. Deliverance is a must.

    God bless you!


  122. I disagree Sally

    Sally said: “Jesus was born without sin and without a “sinful nature,” but He got His blood from His Father God, as all babies get their blood from the paternal side.

    This is why he was born sinless – Because His blood line was from His heavenly Father.”

    I ask you to prove this statement with scripture.

  123. Rollan McCleary Nov 5th 2010


    With speculation is the Spirit prompting me etc, I groan to have to answer when I already said I would write no further. In order to do the Christian thing I may write to Andrew privately about what I consider his inappropriate response to me, otherwise I don’t want to continue a fruitless debate which I probably should have known better than to enter. But the following may answer you.

    Yes, I am perfectly aware of demonic forces today. I have the gift of discernment myself but, though anyone can be possessed for all of sorts of reasons, most gays are not possessed and the absurd will at all costs to exorcize them when they don’t need it is just one more of the scandals which helps make Christians infamous among gays and the world at large. Famously, the exorcisms for gay Mel White went on for years to no effect.

    No I am not receiving promptings from the Holy Spirit as a result of reading the at times blind and sulpherous comments of this discussion. I already know what God intends me to do. The gay subject is complex but there are things the churches don’t know and need to. Their understanding of various gay issues can be limited, defective and in need of correction amid the dogmatic extremes they would rarely direct on any other subject. Overall, the history of Christian errors in this area is an offence to God and a virtual curse upon Christianity – it’s one of the reasons all the prayer is so unavailing against the tide of secular forces and attitudes in this area. God refuses to honour the attitudes and historical record still too often as good as privately consented to.
    I have some measure of vocation in this area (and a number of other things at this time). Yes, some of my views might even seem out of the box, and in one case an esteemed prophet who couldn’t believe the things I was saying took them to Jesus who told him what I was saying was meant to be known in the world and will and must be in due time.

    This was supposed to be an open forum, the subject itself was posed as a question. Plainly it isn’t so open. It exists for people to affirm the familiar according to received interpretations of the Bible. They should at least be aware the Bible is always open to a measure of interpretation and differing translation. In practice one finds fundamentalist often interpret as they wish to the point of serious distortion when it suits them, including even David Wilkerson in “The Vision” where he talks about your children being in future raped in the parks as something the Bible promises (Since he can offer no citation one supposes it’s his wild interpretation of “As in the days of Sodom”…. Except that the men of Sodom wanted to rape angels not children”. But then Wilkerson and Pentecostals are anyway somewhat guilty of mis-educating their flocks to the libel that homosexuality and paedophilia are identical. Gays are understandably outraged. It’s all part of the madness of a half hysterical treatment of “homosexuality” often by people who know very little about it. God intends this should stop.

    I may have seemed and will remain frustrating and elusive refusing any sound-bite answers and referring to a book, but even so, I did make quite a wide variety of comments and leading statements on things. If people had wanted to learn about them they would have asked, but they haven’t even shown curious (it might upset their certainties!) and like Grady not one, so far as I can see, referred to one of the reasons the Pastor who was Grady’s subject alleged he “came out”. According to the secular press, one motive was to confront the evils of homophobia that had precipitated seven recent youth suicides in America in September – obviously there were many more unsuccessful attempts. It goes on all the time.

    Most of the replies here reflect far more concern about a Christian’s right to proclaim homosexuality wrong because it’s inborn, chosen or whatever (everyone pontificates, because they all know for sure!) than what the actual effects of their various attitudes and statements might be in society. If people die because of wrong attitudes, well, it’s unfortunate. This is not what I call “spiritual efficiency” and the much toted love doesn’t show through too strongly – even go near to tolerance and it’s called “mercy mania” or secularism. Did one person here protest the disgusting behavior of Christians in Uganda who have been egged on from American big name fundamentalists? Of course not. Far too full of love, knowledge and truth to bother with that, or perhaps they’re even in private sympathy with people who want executions and life imprisonments and attack people on the streets in the name of Jesus.

    Sorry, my last word, and it REALLY must be that – unless perhaps privately to Andrew – will and must be that people should examine their deeper attitudes, they are not necessarily so righteous, so informed or so godly as they might appear to be.

  124. Tina Baxley Nov 5th 2010

    I came on here and gave testimony to the greatness and goodness of God in my deliverance. From what I am reading, it would appear that people think that we can control this, or that we can turn it off and on like a water faucet. I want to know how many people abstained from the act of sex before they were married? Is not this also a sin in the eyes of man?
    To be quite honest with you all, I would rather fall into the hands of God than to fall into the hands of man. I am thankful that I was not a part of anyone’s church when Father was delivering me, less they could boast on their casting out one thing or the other.
    I will say that about 8 years later, I was praying for the person that I had spent 15 years of my life with, and about 6 months after that he had me call her.
    When I called her she was freaked out with her life, doing drugs and alcohol as well.
    She said she was coming to see me, and all I could do was say please father do not let this spirit enter me again. I kept pacing and saying this and things like what am I going to do? Do I cast this out? Please do not let this spirit enter me? When she arrived at my home, she was explosive with the things that had unfolded in her life. As I let her unload, the Lord spoke to me in gentle tone and words–I’ve got it, you just support her. I remember feeling so relieved. I am also proud to say that God delivered her from homosexuality, drugs, alcohol, bitterness, etc.. But think back, what if I had not had love? What if I had went to her much like what I hear in a lot of these messages of judgment? Would she have excepted the God that I serve? Probably not.
    It started from a simple prayer for father to show her the love that He showed me. I had no idea that He would use me to do this, not that I did anything, come to think of it, except pray and support her, while He did the work.
    I am sorry that I can not report to you thousands upon thousands as He has only delivered about four with my being directly involved. I am hoping there are countless people who have been delivered, that I do not know about as a result of my testimony, and his work.
    For the record here, I wrote a small book or epistle, if you will, and entitled it, Born Gay, Born Again Happy.
    I asked for help from many churches to help me get many copies made so it could be given out for people who are struggling. Sadly the churches did not have the funds to support this work, yet many still want to point their fingers. all in all, I guess they know that the answer lies within relationship with God, and yet instead of teaching this, they would rather continue to point a judgmental finger and cast stones. Surely this does not win anyone to the Lord, but love will.
    I am so glad that He accepted me like I was, and did not reject me. I am so glad for His long suffering to get me to see it His way. I am just filled with joy knowing that He who has begun a good work will finish it.

  125. Seeker, believe me I would never speak my opinion on this very delicate issue of Divorce and Remarriage. I am too scared to be non-chalant or careless with with God’s Word and counsel.

    You rightly said it is sin to marry a divorced person whose covenant spouse is still living. Yes, it is adultery. This adultery does not appear, from a scriptural standpoint, to be any different in God’s eyes than an extra-marital affair regarding the seriousness of the sin. What to do in such cases? First, would be to assess WHY God calls it adultery. Jesus tells is in the Gospel teachings of marriage (Mt. 5,19 and Mk. 10) that the two, once joined by God as ONE FLESH, are NO LONGER two. So, anyone who is involved with either party are to God the “third party”—not joined by Him to someone else’s spouse. Some people think that once the deed is done, all you have to do then it confess the sin. We then have to ask ourselves this: Where do find in scripture that God then JOINS as ONE FLESH this new union and it now is no longer adultery? What if one of the spouses is praying for their wayward spouse to repent of adultery and come home to their original family? Does God honor them or the one who is IN adultery and wants to stay with the present person they are with?

    These are all questions that need to be asked and settled with God’s Word. I know quite a few people who have forsaken adulterous marriages and I also know many who are the forsaken who are praying for the restoration of their marriages. When the popular teaching, “all you have to do is confess your sin and NOW live in THIS marriage to the Glory of God”, I would ask such a pastor/teacher/counsellor—-where do you find this in God’s Word and which scriptures do you point the faithful spouse to who is praying for restoration? Which scriptures tell him/her that they are now coveting another person’s spouse by praying for restoration?

    When we go to Rom. 7:2-3 we see that although Paul was not giving an indepth teaching on marriage divorce, his analogy was flawless. He CHOSE to use the illustration of an adulterous wife because it perfectly fit what he was trying to teach about law/Christ—1 way. Notice in that passage what you DON’T find which is popularly taught today: adultery gives right to divorce and remarry someone different—a new marriage negates a previous one. In Paul’s illustration we have a woman who marries another man. What does Paul say? That her adultery now FREES her original husband(therefore she is FREE too)? Does he say that she committed adultery upon ENTRANCE of the marriage, but now once fully “married” to this new man it is a valid marriage? No. Paul teaches that she is an ADULTERESS—which is a label. Adulteresses hold such labels as long as they continue to commit adultery (unlawful relations with a man who is NOT her husband in the eyes of the Lord). When does Paul say she will be FREE to marry another man? When her original husband dies……….not when he remarries, not when he becomes a drunkard and impossible to live with, not when he becomes abusive (Paul dealt with this in I Cor.7:10-11). Good, bad, or ugly—living with or living apart, legally divorced or not—one is married(One Flesh) til death—-THEN and only then are they free to be with another who is also free (see also I Cor. 7:39 where Paul again teaches marriage til death, THEN freedom).

    What to do if one finds themselves in such a situation? Pray, pray, pray for strength and provision……..then DO what is right in the Lord’s sight—stop committing adultery with someone else’s spouse. If you are the one who left your original marriage and married someone who WAS FREE to marry, look at that person as someone who you are causing to commit adultery, causing a brother or sister to stumble in sin. When we love our neighbor as God desires, the farthest thing we want to do is be the cause of someone else being in sin.

    What about the children? I’ll just address that from those situations I do know of where people have left adulterous unions. Some kids become very hurt and rebellious. This is a very real possibility. That is a VERY common occurance in COVENANT marriages that end in divorce and especially so when their parents bring others into the picture. Another thing that happens is that sometimes the children, though very hurt, KNOW it is the right thing to do in God’s eyes. They understand the pain could have been avoided by making the right choices to begin with. They SEE faith being lived out before them and they now KNOW how very important it is to do things God’s way from the beginning. They also see the pain of sin–whether that sin originated before salvation or after. Some of these kids were brought much CLOSER to the Lord through these terrible situations—especially if their parents handled it with Love and Gentleness.

    Why bring this discussion into the homosexual discussion? Because BOTH type of relationships are a perversion against original marriage. Both in scripture are sin. Both in the OT required stoning—-that’s how serious both of these sins are to God………..yet, when Jesus came, so did His grace and mercy. He now gives us opportunity to repent and “sin nor more”. That is a wonderful thing. So, if a homosexual, who is legally married and has adopted children with his/her partner, comes to saving faith, what is expected of him/her as the “fruit of repentance”? Is it to confess of one’s unlawful marriage, then to continue living with somone God says is NOT their spouse?

    Many will bring in Mal 2 saying, “God hates divorce!” I say read that passage a little bit closer to find out WHICH divorces God hates—because it is not all divorces. Divorces that occur in COVENANT marriages (original marriages) are what God hates and He repudiates all that come to His alter weeping that have done this and then have taken another spouse. If we look at Ezra 9-10 we will find that divorce in those cases was REPENTANCE. See, with homosexual marriage becoming more and more legalized throughout the world, the Christians will be called to the mat regarding their use of “God hates divorce!” trying to stop people in adulterous remarriages from separating themselves from each other. They will say, “why do you want US (those in homosexual marriages) to divorce as a sign of repentance, yet you tell those whom God has said are in adultery, “STAY TOGETHER, God hates divorce!, you are adding sin to sin!!!”. Wouldn’t the homosexual be adding sin to sin if they divorced?

    I believe the Lord is allowing all this homosexuality IN THE CHURCH to expose our hypocrisies of application. If we do not repent of OUR sins, STRONG, STRONG judgment is coming upon us—the professing church.

  126. Cindy W Nov 5th 2010

    All I needed to do was do a google search for Rollan McCleary.

    God bless him, he’s truly one of the most deceived persons I know.

    Now, I’ve been self deceived before myself but with
    God’s word and a love for truth, God showed me the
    error of my ways. He can do it for you to Rollan.

  127. Kathy F. Nov 6th 2010

    (Jeremiah 23:14) I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

    According to that scripture, Yahweh says that one who tells lies is as one from Sodom or Gomorrah. And what was their sin? If we have ever told a lie, we are as a Sodomite.

    Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    Psalms 14:1-3 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. (2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. (3) They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

    Homosexuality is sin, as is lying. Neither one is acceptable for a believer. But we need to judge with compassion and love, knowing that as we judge another – we judge ourselves.

    The sin in our lives does not automatically disappear when we step into a church or fellowship. Sometimes it takes years of crying out for deliverance as we struggle against our sinful propensities. But Yahweh is faithful. His Word and His Work will accomplish all that He desires in us.

  128. Sin is sin,we are held accountable for what we know. We Christians love to yell at sinners,but what about the church scandels ? Oh,they ‘say’ that they are sorry,keep the new wife,go back behind the pulpit…& preach. Who did Jesus condemn most? There are no big sins or little sins,just sinners who are saved by grace & sinners who are not . It took me a long time to scroll down these comments,did as much prayer go forth to our Jesus as the time spent assuming we all want to hear what they have to say? It is the church who needs to repent & then we will see the mighty arm of God reveal what He can do …even for sinners. Clean out the pulpit before you claim the right to condemn sinners who are just doing what sinners do. I am a Christian who is far from perfect,but I am striving,& I weep day& night for the church in America. The proud,willful,church whose god is money & power is not even a hint of what I was saved into. When the church gets right ,sinners will be drawn to us,but as it is now,weep for the church first.

  129. Mel,
    Obviously, the Bible doesn’t directly address all issues in detail. Of course there’s a difference between homosexual inclination and behavior! How else explain young children who are “in love” with someone of the same sex while still too young to know anything about sex? How else explain little girls who act like boys and vice versa? How else explain the 70-year-old homosexual who refused to sin against God and therefore remained celibate? Yes, Mel, they do exist. Most homosexuals knew they were “different” from age 3 or 4 when they had same-sex romantic crushes. It was all they knew and it was their norm. They didn’t know until later that they were not like other people. We’re all flawed in some way by the curse of sin and will remain so until God’s creation is redeemed. It makes no more sense to condemn the homosexual for something he/she didn’t choose (again, WHO’D choose that?) than to condemn a person for any other physical/mental/spiritual weakness. How can sexual confusion which isn’t chosen be more evil than the destructive sins of pride, avarice, greed and gluttony which ARE chosen? We don’t hear anybody screaming about those sins.

  130. Amen, Patricia…………..it is only when WE, the professing Church, looks deeply at ourselves and repents. We will then be a true force/image of Jesus to affect the lives of the Lost who are only doing what comes natural to them….Blessings………

  131. Sally,

    What about “sin nature” after born again is it eradicated or still alive and well? If it is alive and well, then no one should fuss about any open sin-adultery, homosexual, pornography etc, etc.- were just doing what we are forced to do! Our sin natures make us! If we retain our sin natures after being born from above. God is unjust to require us to stop sinning-He would be requiring us to do something which would be physically impossible for us to do!

    The humanist are just following what the “church” has been preaching, openly and robustly for years-“as Christians we all sin in word, thought and deed everyday” No stopping it, so therefore those who uphold this “evil doctrine” (and I’m NOT one of them) have no defense or argument against any sin in the heathen or the Christian.

    The truth of the matter is we are born “self ruled” (not with a sinful nature that makes us sin.) (If our natures makes us sin-something in the blood, or muscles forcing sin- then we are not responsible for any of it- and all sin is then Gods fault-which of course is absurd! ) We’re the Kings of our castle. As infants we cry when were hungry, tired, or wet, our parents comfort and help us. This relates to self preservation-we are geared to preserve ourselves, physically-or we’d all die-the will to live is very strong-God given. The world keeps revolving around us, we get what we want and then we demand more, and more. We then progress to preserve our self image that we have created. Many don’t even know they are calling the shots they think everyone around them are making decisions for them, others like the power of running there own lives, some use it for societies good and become doctors, policemen etc and some use it against society and become criminals, but both at this point are self ruled and NOT Christ ruled. When we get to the age of accountability(different with everyone) God deals with us to relinquish our kingdom completely to Him. In order to do this we must confess and repent of all our sins that our self rule has committed, take full responsibility for how we have ruled ourselves apart from Him, and IF we want to be in fellowship with our maker, He requires we lay our “self ruled” kingdom down-crawl off the throne and surrender forever unto His rule-loving and kind above all others.

    Once this true kingdom change has happened and Christ is ruling a life, this person has no desire to run things ever again because of His great love and care. They are willing love slaves, children, and friends, of the Lord of Hosts. It is their honor and desire to do all He commands. Stopping all the branch sins are now almost effortless once the root sin (self rule) issue is settled. Christ then can heal and restore a life from all the damage that their self rule has caused. Sin now has no more dominion over them because Christ has complete dominion over them. Freedom from self rule (sin) and freedom and power to live holy, righteous, pure, and blameless before God and man ( in a practical way). It’s very simple and not complicated as truth always is; simple, clean, and profound-even a child could understand it.

    Jeri Woods

  132. Andrew Nov 6th 2010

    I strongly believe in reaching out to homosexuals with love and compassion – yet TRUTH. We cannot compromise the word of God on this matter in any way – much as the secular world wants us to.


  133. Andrew Nov 6th 2010

    Rollan – I too just did a Google search on your name. Rollan – this below seems to be you. Could it be??-

    “Jesus was gay, says academic
    May 29 2003

    Jesus Christ was gay because of the position of the planets at the time of his birth, a Brisbane academic says.

    Rollan McCleary, who was awarded his doctorate today from the University of Queensland, also believes one and possibly three of Jesus’s disciples were also gay.

    Dr McCleary, who will launch a book on his findings next month, said today he based his opinions on St John’s gospel and on Christ’s astrological chart based around the date, place and time he was born.”


  134. Rollan McCleary Nov 6th 2010

    You believe everything the press says? Didn’t I say here I even complained to the Press Council about certain misrepresentations. I have now written to you personally in clear terms to save your face before this group.

  135. Sally Nov 6th 2010

    I certainly don’t want to argue with those on here who think we don’t have a “sin nature.” If anyone agrees with me, would you please speak up so I will know that I’m not the only one who interprets scripture in this way.

    To me, “sin nature” is simply being born with a propensity to sin. We are all bent on sinning. It is how we were born. This is scriptural, and it came from Adam and Eve’s first sin in the Garden of Eden.

    Paul speaks of wanting to do what is right but another part of him wanting to do that which is wrong. This is the old sin nature tugging at him to sin. We all have it, and we will have this until we die and leave these fleshy bodies behind.

    For this reason, we desparately need a Savior Who is perfect and pure in every way. Jesus is that Savior.

    Why do so many seem to have a problem with this?

    Tyrone – I don’t wish to debate further about what I believe (concerning the statement I made that you disagree with) until you address my questions and scriptures in my main statement (from Romans and Psalms). You still have not yet explained why you believe as you do, nor have you acknowledged my scriptures.

  136. Sally Nov 6th 2010


    I never said (nor do I believe) that something in our blood forces us to sin. Nothing “forces” us to sin. We have our own free will to choose. We are absolutely responsible for our sin. Having a “sin nature” simply means we are bent toward sinning – that is the natural path that we follow.

    All of the rest of your note sounds very “off” to me, and I’m not sure why you insist on relating to our sinfulness as “self rule.” Yes, there is some truth to what you’re saying, but please if you are so against calling it “sin nature” provide some scriptural basis for this.

    Yes, it is very simple, but living life in Christ is not some fairy tale where we all the sudden become perfect and sinless just because we name the name of Christ and surrender to Him as our Lord and Savior. Nothing will be perfect in this life, including any of us. The only thing good in me or you is Christ Jesus – and this is only to the level that we have yielded our lives over to Him. This is a progression, a progression of walking closer and closer with Him and yielding over more of ourselves day by day.

  137. Sally – you quoted Psalm 51 where David is crying out to God after he committed sin against God by taking Bathsheba and killing her husband Uriah. Did David say, “We were shapen in inquity”? Or did you say that? “Tyrone – The KJV says we were “shapen in iniquity” and conceived in sin (Psalm 51:5)”

    Here is what the scripture actually says:

    “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

    My God, this is why we have so many false doctrines, by adding to, or taking away from scripture to make it say what we want them to and validate our beliefs. If David’s mother really conceived him in sin that would mean she committed adultery and would have been stoned to death under the law of Moses!

    In any case this scripture in no way says that all men are BORN in sin, and there is no scripture in the canon that says All are BORN in sin and with a sinful nature.

    Paul said, “all have sinned”, meaning all have committed sin, done something wrong. He did not say ALL are Born in sin! No scripture says that. Can an infant commit sin? And I will say again that if we are born in sin, and have a ‘sinful nature’ then every baby or child that dies should go to Hell.

    Here is where Jesus said evil and sin comes from:

    Mark 7:21-23

    “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”

    James also tells us where sin is conceived:

    James 1:13-15

    “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

    I pray this helps those who believe in the false doctrine of ‘Original Sin’

  138. Tina Baxley Nov 6th 2010

    I believe we are born with a carnal mind, which is an enemy to God. He offers us the ability to receive the mind of Christ. This is spiritual growth and we all know that some grow faster than others. Repent means to change ones mind. But how is one to repent unless God grants this.
    I can not change my mind when I have been taught certain things or have my own ideas to do them. Growth is a process of elimination of the old man’s ideas etc.. Father brings us up higher in our thinking or enlightens us.
    Let’s take Isaiah, he was woe to this and woe to that, until he saw the Lord lifted high and then it was woe to me, I am a man of unclean lips. Unclean lips spew forth that which we think, until our minds are changed or brought up to a higher standard. He then prophesied the coming of the Lord. Who hath believed our report and to who is the arm of the Lord revealed?
    The only fast that Father has ever asked me to do was one of fasting carnality. Then He asked me to make Him first. I said to Him I think of You all day long, how much more can I make You first? Then he led me to look up the word first in the Biblical dictionary, only to find that it meant to make Him head. Then it dawned on me that I was making decisions without Him. Not bringing them to Him first before acting on them. Then I saw the body growing into the head of Christ.
    Our carnal thinking is His enemy and anti anything about Him.
    I do not know if this helps, but it is the way that it was revealed to me.

  139. Andrew Nov 6th 2010

    Rollan – you just wrote me an email but did not tell me if you thought Jesus was “gay” – in fact really yet again you told me nothing much at all.

    So are you saying it is not true that you are into Astrology or that you thought Jesus was gay?

    We need an actual statement – preferably in one sentence – “Yes or no”. It would be nice to know who we are talking to here, Rollan.


  140. Tina Baxley Nov 6th 2010

    Tyrone, our thoughts when evil give birth to the sin.
    The evil, sinful thoughts that we have is dead thinking and can only be resurrected by the Lord Himself, which is why faith without Him working in the heart is dead faith.

  141. Trevor Hughes Nov 6th 2010

    Let us consider something even more fundamental. Every carpenter knows that when you cut the legs of a table you measure the first and use it as template for the rest. If you do not follow this rule a lopsided table results. The church fails to understand this rule that all of us act as a template for the ones that follow us. This means that we need to construct a template of what is appropriate for our time. It doesnt mean that we can denigrate leaders as HAM did to Noah nor does it mean we can tolerate wickedness for example David and Bathsheba. I weep for the children of Jim Swiley as the template of their life has been severely tarnished. But having said that if he can be convinced to repent and walk away from his sin we will all be better for it, including his children. Leaders can make mistakes. All they need is the wisdom to realise them and the courage to repent. Face it if Jim changes he will turn more evil around in a day than most of us will do in a lifetime. One of the greatest Christian writers of our day CS Lewis struggled with deviant thoughts. He came through the English School system at the beginning of the 20th century so it is fairly easy to see how these thoughts were implanted. When we can see the reason it is easy to forgive the rhyme. We are all damaged goods but in different ways. We need to realise that the only way our children have a chance is if we build a type and submit ourselves to the task of living up to it.

  142. Tina Baxley Nov 6th 2010

    I have written this a couple of times and deleted it because it was somewhat sarcastic, and I did not want to portray a sarcastic attitude, however if Jesus was gay, why then did He love me through to deliverance, and when I asked Him did I also have to be a foo – foo girl, did He say that it was my bed that was defiled?
    Save the face of Andrew?? (tongue in cheek and shaking my head)

  143. Tina – It was hard for me to accept the words of Jesus that told me all the sin that I was committing was coming from my heart, but that’s exactly what He said, and that’s what I believe. This is why He said, “blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God”

  144. Tina Baxley Nov 6th 2010

    Tyrone, I understand what you are saying however He explained it to me a different way. I agreed with Father that my heart was evil beyond measure and therefore was able to walk together with Him because we then were in agreement. I then asked Him to change my heart, give me one that was like His. He was very patient with me– I had fears — I had thoughts that were contrary or I will make a bold statement here and say thoughts that were anti christ.
    Against His way. The heart and mind are linked together because what goes into the mind then goes to the heart and then is acted on, word or deed. That is where he taught me to cast down vain imaginations that exalt themselves above Him. He is still working me through them, because sometimes one will sneak through and I will be ugly or sarcastic.

  145. It’s easy to point the finger and nobody does it better than pious Christians. People who glibly spout, “Hate the sin but love the sinner” often don’t get around to the second part, loving the sinner. I have no right to judge anybody else’s behavior until I first despise and forsake my own sin.

  146. David Nov 6th 2010

    If we where to remove all the sinners from church and in the pastoral role, ther would be none in chuch, Being gay is no worse then stealing or lying, God certainly doesnt see a difference, it all leads to death. Are you without sin, are you going to stand before Jesus and throw the first stone. Its lovely how christians love to single out one sin and make it worse the the rest,

    Jesus did away with it but we love bringing it up. It pleases this ghastly flesh of ours.

    in His Love

  147. David

    The scriptures make a significant distinction between sins.

    God through the Apostles decreed that the drinking of blood, fornication and eating spiritually contaminated food(offered to idols) was particularly serious. Acts15:29

    The common factor in each of these sins is that they can result in bringing a wrong spirit onto one’self

    So sexual sin is particularly serious in this regard.

    Carl Emerson

  148. onto one’self should read INTO one’self sorry…

  149. Thos: A question.
    Today, unknown to most of us, a large portion, possibly most, of our meat, is now being dedicated to Allah at the meat packing plants. How should we react to this; what should we do about it in accordance with Acts 15:29, Revelation 2:15 & 20, ? It seems that this has now become a modern issue in America. If I can, I will try to obtain more details, or possibly someone else here has more detailed information. This is something I am sure the Muslims do not want widely known. Thanks.

  150. Tina Baxley:
    You earlier mentioned a book you had written “Born Gay, Born Again Happy”. I would love to buy one or maybe several copies. I Googled it and found nothing. Please, where can I obtain it? Extremely poor as I am, being on disability, I would be willing to contribute $100.00 to help to get it into print again. Thank you very much!

  151. Tina Baxley Nov 6th 2010

    I have thought about your issue with the meat thing.
    If it is dedicated to Allah, I feel I am at liberty to ask Father to bless that which I eat, and He being THE GOD will do so.
    However I feel that this that you have written deals with spiritual issues and not one of the natural.
    In other words if someone wants to a false spiritual meat at a table of conversation, then if it does not agree with what Father has revealed to me, then I do not eat their words that may be an offering of a worship to another God other than The One True God, since there is only One TRUE God. If I do that which I have stated above, then my conscience is clear and clean, as I trust Him.

  152. Tina Baxley Nov 6th 2010

    I got discouraged at that time because no one could or would help me– It was not a published thing, as I could not afford to do this. If I can find the copy I wrote, I will be happy to send it to you.
    It was a longer version of that which I explained on this thread– How the Lord brought me through it and all with love and gentleness, not with demanding ugliness.
    He won me over with His judgment of opening my eyes and ears. So it was not a book of laws and this type of stuff.
    I have tried to e-mail you but apparently am doing something wrong, as I have not heard from you.
    I am sorry but I am not good with computers as you guys are.

  153. In earlier years, when some Christian men had an intense struggle in the sexual area, they voluntarily became eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of God. This seems to be clearly implied in Matthew 19:12. Would this be a possible answer today for some men with intense struggles?? And maybe the revulsion most have for this is known beforehand when Jesus ended this with “He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”
    This is, however, not as simple for the other 1/2 of the human race.

  154. Tina Baxley: Thank you. try using dot ca instead of dot com. The great blessing of Almighty God be upon you!

    Another thought someone may have brought up already: Romans 12:1: “Your body a living sacrifice” I can then say, my WHOLE body, even the sexual parts of it!
    Again, thank you very much.

  155. Tina Baxley Nov 6th 2010

    Anna, That is what I put in, and I see you on instant messenger. Perhaps I should just give you mine.
    schnapps03 at yahoo dot com.

  156. HHHunter2010 Nov 7th 2010

    This is a well done comment. In my research I have come across comments that when a civilization turns to this type of gay activity it will end in ONE GENERATION. These are definately the final days and these so called promotors of gay rights will be amoung the goats and there are no ifs, ands or buts about it.. Messiah has the FINAL SAY and it will be in RIGHTEOUSNESS. The signs and season are lineing up fast. Mark Biltz has found in his research that since 1948 there have been two sets of 6 eclipses and a third set comming in 2014-2015. Accoding to NASA web site on eclipses this type of occuance has not happened before and will not happen again. This is definately a sign of the end of evil on the earth.

  157. Trevor Hughes Nov 7th 2010

    Surely the person of Jesus should be exempt from being burdened with sexuality issues. In our town you are either gay straight or bent (interested in children). There is however a real null alternative asexuality. It occurs principally when the spirit is wounded by abuse . It is the only logical response to in your anger do not sin and we would do well to respect it . It has been both my observed and personal experience that most of our sexuality issues are compliance issues with what is projected to be normal not necessarily biblical. I find it encouraging that Jesus will not condemn my lack of sexuality as my brothers and sisters have done. Equally encouraging is the fact that those who truely know JEsus must eventually renounce deviance. It is simple what was in Eden was perfect. What occurred in Sodom was an affront to GOD. The person of Jesus was at Mamre with Abraham and he was part of the destruction of Sodom because they wanted to have sex with the angels that visited Lot. Therefore he could not have had any equation between gay and goodness.HE certainly could not have equated himself with being gay. If you doubt me ref Gen 18 with Hebrews. The judge of all the earth reernced by the writer of Hebrews is indeed the same as the one referenced by Abraham AKA Jesus

  158. Sandra Nov 7th 2010

    What in the world do they do with Romans 1:27 “And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. The church is to LOVE the sinner but HATE the sin!!!

  159. Cindy W Nov 7th 2010


    Now you went and did it!
    Why did you have to bring the word of God into the disscussion? :)

    Romans 1:27 is an excellent scripture on the subject at hand.

    Have you ever heard the old saying, “Don’t confuse me with the facts my mind is already made up.”

    But Jesus said, “He didn’t come to bring peace but a sword.”
    God’s Word as it is revealed in the Bible always offends those who
    are not converted yet.

    And for those who have not bowed their knee to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, they resent His word.

    Why I’m still being changed by the powerful presence of God and His word.

    -Cindy W

  160. David Nov 7th 2010

    Hi Cindy W. its amazing at how many ” christians”, get offended when confronted with the truth.

    Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

    Let the Holy spirirt do His work in men and lets do what Jesus asked us to do. ” love everyone”, telling them they are a siner is not love, its judgement.

    In His LOve

    PS and its no worse than any other sin. or is homosexualtiy worse then murder, rape, abortion, child abuse, extortion. such a long list.

    A world without love, how much worse is it going to get.

  161. Anna Said,

    Thos: A question.
    Today, unknown to most of us, a large portion, possibly most, of our meat, is now being dedicated to Allah at the meat packing plants. How should we react to this; what should we do about it in accordance with Acts 15:29, Revelation 2:15 & 20, ? It seems that this has now become a modern issue in America. If I can, I will try to obtain more details, or possibly someone else here has more detailed information. This is something I am sure the Muslims do not want widely known. Thanks.

    Anna I think this is a very good question that deserves to be explored on a new thread…

    Carl Emerson

  162. watchful Nov 7th 2010

    The word of God is to be preached, it would not be loving to let someone continue thinking they are safe from the wrath of God if they are not, and this is one passage of scripture that addresses this matter, what anyone does with it is on their own head, but we can’t hide the truth of the danger that homosexual people are in if they are not willing to take up the good fight of faith against their own sin. If anyone thinks otherwise they are deceived:

    1Cr 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be DECEIVED: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

    1Cr 6:10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    1Cr 6:11 And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    To pick and choose and alter the word of God to try and wiggle out of whatever sins we or someone else is still cherishing is to invent a false religion, it is not the Christianity that Jesus Christ preached, and as such can’t save anyone. The bible is clear, we can’t hang onto our sins and Jesus too. It was our sins that He died to SAVE us from, and He is well able to – there are some wonderful testimonies here that witness to His ability and desire to deliver from homosexuality.

    When I first came to faith in the Lord I was in a conjugal relationship with my boyfriend and didn’t realize it was wrong at first until I saw that ugly word “fornication” in the bible. “But Lord it doesn’t FEEL wrong and I’m not hurting anybody, are you sure this is wrong?”, and I looked for loopholes because I didn’t want to give up the s-word unless I had to. After some more more searching, I realized I would have to DECEIVE MYSELF to believe there was any way God would ever accept my immorality. It was a crossroad, keep the sin, or keep Jesus, one or the other – I loved Jesus, so the sex had to stop. And stop it did, and I’m very glad it did, because my eyes were eventually opened to the truth and the realization that I had essentially been prostituting myself and selling myself cheap, that I was worth more than that to give myself away to someone who was using me, and I him. And the Lord has rewarded me abundantly with MORE OF HIM as I take up my cross, DENY MYSELF and follow Him in other areas of my life as well – as He does all His followers. He gives us strength as we lean into Him for it, He doesn’t expect that we can follow in our own strength, indeed we can’t.

    Believing in Jesus is not enough, we must also FOLLOW Him, otherwise what does that say about our belief?.. it says that it isn’t real.. Jesus said it would cost us. There are many who have mentally assented to Christianity but haven’t yet (I say hopefully) encountered the Living Christ and haven’t experienced that He is worth much more than anything and everything we could ever give up for Him.

  163. HappyTrails Nov 7th 2010


  164. HappyTrails Nov 7th 2010

    Thos….all sin is equal in the fact that it leads to death/separation from God.


    Sin does NOT ORIGINATE in our bodies, but we reap the consequences of our sins in our bodies. Even the world knows this!

  165. HappyTrails Nov 7th 2010

    Sally….I have already concurred with your comments, but I will copy and paste my agreement once again.

    “Sally…….Great truths on original sin…..Thank you for the Light you have given to this conversation!”

  166. Randall Nov 7th 2010

    I have been carefully reading the comments here and feel compelled to offer one more.

    We Christians do warn the world, because of love and because we do not want people to suffer an eternity in hell. Yet the enemy is subtle to twist our concern into judgement. The very fact that Jesus Christ came down from heaven above to break satan’s power should show us how serious sin really is.

    But our lack of fellowship time with God is why we don’t see sin in all its seriousness nor have the love to show others the difference.

    I try to warn because I was chained up one time and being taken to hell after I died in my automobile accident. I was no match for the powerful spirit that was going to toss me alive into the lake of fire.

    I was going to be tossed there because I was a liar and hypocrite, there are consequences to immoral behavior.

    Is it considered loveless to try to warn others away from this place?

    Rollan, is it wrong for others to want to warn you?

  167. Sally yes I also agree with you. We are all born into a fallen human race. However in the Old Testament God did not hold accounable those under 20 when Israel refused to go into the promised land.I beleive that children are under the Grace of God until they come to an age of accountability.
    Kay and Cindy I wish you would scroll back and read my first post. I stand by that. Divorce wasn’t in God’s original plan but neither was wife-beating cruelty to children and infidelity. The Catholic Church at least recoginizes that in some instances no true marriage took place. Both parties need to be responsible. The hard line stance locked many people including children into very destructive situations. I personally know some people who suffer all their lives by being brought up in a disfunctional home. Each case has to be taken individually.

  168. Brenda Nov 7th 2010

    Hi Ron thanks for bringing out that word so boldly.
    We need to be bold to speak the word of God.

  169. Brenda Nov 7th 2010

    Hi trish i thank Gof for your testimony , i believe it will set someone free. someone will get your message.Glory be to jesus, he came to set the captives free thats what the word of God does, set free.

  170. Brenda Nov 7th 2010

    Hi DL amen to you,

  171. watchful Nov 7th 2010

    Amen to your post Randall, praise God for your salvation. This statement stood out to me:

    “Yet the enemy is subtle to twist our concern into judgement.”

    The opposite is also true, on a couple of occasions when trying to talk to someone about homosexuality, I fell flat on my face into a vat of compromise goo! Very sickening for a soldier of Christ. It seems that in our flesh we will either be judgmental or compromising, at least for me it’s like that, sort of vacillating back and forth without meaning to, I suspect it’s the knowledge of good and evil thing going on. I learned the hard way that I have to wait for some unction from the Lord to speak, and hope that we all will too (though sometimes I forget) – only God knows how to handle this, or anything, properly. ‘We can do nothing apart from Him’ is an absolute fact.

    Once I would spend some time with a man who had been involved in homosexual activity, was quite rebellious about it, and had developed mental illness. He was willing to listen so I just spoke to him all the time about the Lord – the Lord wanting to give him hope because he despised himself and had a lot of unresolved anger, and pride, and I read to him passages of the bible, not confronting the homosexuality directly but God was speaking to the underlying issues that led to it. I spoke to him about the love of the Lord and His desire to deliver and cleanse us from our sins and bring us into ‘sonship’ with him in spite of our fallen state – God’s willingness to forgive no matter what, if we are penitent.

    Sometimes demons would manifest, and one day he received a sovereign deliverance from a spirit of perversion, which never came back. I believe this was a sign following the preaching of the gospel, and my friend was quite amazed. The Lord continued to minister to him, bringing in others, it was a real team effort, someone helped me get him to church on a couple of occasions, another gave him a prophetic word, and he eventually received his Messiah, reaped in by a Jewish brother who was just in the right place at the right time wth the Holy Spirit upon him, and it was so precious, it was as though his real self manifested, a most precious little child, who responded to the Lord. If we cry at the havoc wreaked in lives by Satan, imagine how the Father feels. Two weeks later this man sadly died, due to a fall in his home from Parkinsons’ disease, but he had come to faith just in time in the great mercy and omniscience of Almighty God!.

  172. Sharon Nov 7th 2010

    To believe the word is one thing. to agree is quite another.
    If we agree, our lives will start to line up with the word.
    A big amen to patricia and Cindy. The church must face this adultry , in whatever way it comes in. Homosexual or heterosexual, or spiritual.
    Please lets not get side tracked and miss our oppertunity to join in repentance for disobedience.
    Help us Father. Give us your revelation daily.
    Our desire is to keep the faith.

  173. David said, “If we where to remove all the sinners from church and in the pastoral role, ther would be none in chuch, Being gay is no worse then stealing or lying, God certainly doesnt see a difference, it all leads to death”

    David, if you are talking about dealing with UNBELIEVERS who may be visiting a fellowship, you are right. However, if you are speaking of those who PROFESS to be believers, then your against the Word of God! The CHURCH IS to judge sin amongst itself. Those who remain UNREPENTANT, Paul says to CAST OUT of the fellowship. Why? So that the sin does not GROW……….and it most certainly WILL if left undealt with. The “we all are sinners” argument is a cop out to not follow what the Lord speaks on “sin in the camp”. The problems were are seeing today—-homosexuality, adultery, fornication (couples living together) are all being accepted in many churches today……..and due to that acceptance, the sin is GROWING. And you know what? Because the church was once the example of morality, the world KNEW what was right and wrong in the sight of God (transgressions of His laws). Because the church now is transgressing God’s laws and making excuses for it, the sin is now growing in the WORLD. The lost have, for the most part, lost it’s “light” in being able to SEE their own sins and need of repentance. Much of the church now is either actively sinning, or ACCEPTING sin in it’s midst…….so if that be the case, the lost think, “God doesn’t care about sin………..one still can do such things (look at church people) AND go to heaven!”.

    Wake up Church and be the light and example that Christ has called us to be and quit excusing blatant sin in the camp!

  174. Watchful, Amen!!

    I think many stumble at: “1Cr 6:11 And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God”.

    I have heard some preach that once one is “washed” they are good to go—-no matter what sins they get into later on, those sins are “covered”. I think the big misunderstanding is: “what does washed and sanctified” mean?

    When one has been “washed and sanctified”………….it means they are made CLEAN and then set apart for the LORD’S use! Does that mean that all the sin in their life has now been made 100% clear? No, but what it does mean is that such a person DOES know some sins right off the bat that are not acceptable to the Lord and they have said, “I will follow you and forsake my sin”. Then in such a SANCTIFIED believer, the Lord continues to grow them, revealing things in their lives that are NOT pleasing. Because the TRUE believer loves Jesus, they HATE sin—especially in themselves. If they spew a swear word, they HATE it! It’s repulsive to them. They hate the “weak flesh” that allowed such a thing to come forth from them. What they will not do is EXCUSE it because they know such a thing is not pleasing to the Lord. This is exactly what Paul was lamenting—the weak flesh. He was LAMENTING, NOT EXCUSING, how his FLESH reacted in ways that were NOT Godly sometimes and how he HATED this, looking forward to the deliverance someday of this SINFUL flesh.

    For those who are excusing the sinful flesh IN THE CHURCH, why are you doing this? Why are you not LAMENTING and calling for repentance? If you are part of the HIS Body, do you want this destructive thing in YOU?

    For those who say repentance brings about painful changes in one’s life speaking of all the painful scenerios that will come about as a result of your repentance…………is Jesus not worth it? Did He not tell those who would follow Him, “count the cost”? Each of us will have a different “price” to pay, but ALL of us will have to pay something in order to follow Him. When people say our salvation is “free”………….no, it is not. If it is “free” that means we can receive it with NOTHING expected us. The truth is: we do not EARN it beforehand—-it is only in THAT regard that it is “free”. It is given irregardless of how “good” or how “bad” we are prior to coming to Him. That is the amazing thing. We do nothing to warrant His “gift” to us……………..However, to receive this, we have to be willing to surrender ourselves. That is the “cost”………. Blessings……….

    No worry, no fear. No need for Derek Prince. The word says submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you. Poof! Gone just like that. Works every time. Praise the mighty name of Jesus Christ!

  176. marilynk Nov 7th 2010

    Homosexuality it spiritual warfare. This man and the countless others were in a probability victims as children of some attack. More then likely an attck of the sexual sort. It is a struggle victims face all of their lives until they are delivered. Her is the saddest part of that story…they can not understand why they are like that. Society has moved to make it alright to receive it as normal. The society has labeled it physiologically, psycologicay, even genetically normal. However, the truth is that there has been a demon of homosexuality rulling over them all the days of their lives. It’s legal ground was establish when they were each young. The spirit need only be spoken out of darkness by a person that walks in the correct authority and the victim can over come the greatness of the bondage as the hand of God is able to move on their behalf. Who can a person be healed if they do not recognise the sickness? Not that I am gay, but I have been called upon to administer to one such as him. These are the things that God revealed to me about the issue of homosexuality. Marilyn

  177. maizie Nov 8th 2010

    It is a spirit. An evil spirit. Homosexual activity is when an evil spirit is actively moving in or on a person. It is specific like a spirit of murder is specific or a lying spirit is specific.
    Jesus saw these spirits and you can too if you discern them by the Holy Spirit (just as Jesus did).
    Of course you must have the Holy Spirit in order to do this and you have to turn down (foolish) human reasoning in order to discern by the Holy Spirit.

    To be angry with those who have been deceived by these spirits is wrong. You can be angry at the lies but not the person. This particular spirit of homosexuality has many lesser spirits which protect it from being removed and it will fight dirty too keep its people in bondage but God has great wisdom for those who would seek Him for help in praying and interceding for someone who has been in such a lifestyle.
    Someone has mentioned that it is common for these spirits to enter through hurt and rejection but onlythrough seeking God can it be known an individual situation.Ihave seen a spirit follow a boy around, wating to enter through some action (sin). Of course I prayed against that thing but I believe that particular boy to have a calling on his life to preach God’s Word so what better than that to try to destroy his faith and calling.

  178. maizie Nov 8th 2010

    I am chuckling!

    Not to disagree with Mimi’s scriptural references to resisting but if I were her, I would get ready for a season of testing.
    You know everything we speak, God allows us to be tested in it?
    With every testimony we may very well be unleashing a hoard and the testing lasts until we have conquered every last demon hindering and tormenting us. It makes us quite the warrior though, fit for God’s work.

  179. Maizie, may I ask you something privately? You may email me at ahoovahyah at yahoo dot ca. Thanks.

  180. Maizie, feel free. Chuckle away. Testing? Been there, done that for ages. I ‘m no neophyte. Testing is good. It shows us where we stand or fall and confirms our faith in Christ. As a cessatioinist I believe Paul’s gospel of grace and don’t focus on demons. No need to bind and rebuke, just obey the gospel. Submit to God: resist the devil and he will flee (run not walk) from you. If satan comes near the spirit of the Lord will raise up a standard against him. I sleep well at night knowing that.

  181. Meant to say I’m a cessationist. Can spell, can’t type.

  182. Andrew Nov 8th 2010

    Do cessationists believe that demons have “ceased” too?

  183. Maizie, all believers on Christ are baptized into one body by the Holy Spirit. That’s the Holy Spirit baptism. Believing ON Christ means casting your sins on Him, not merely believing “in” Him. The indwellling Holy Spirit does not require us to abandon human reasoning as you suggest. Rather, the Spirit brings knowledge and understanding. King David prayed, “I am thy servant. Give me UNDERSTANDING that I may know thy testimonies.” God does not ask us to park our brains at the door. Doing that leads to deception. We must prayerfully seek truth and correction and be willing to walk in it regardless of cost.

  184. I’d like to make a comment (And this is particularly directed to Mr. Strom)

    Christians – all of us NEED to be backed into a corner on this. Too much are we content to know that the answer is the Bible and the answer is Jesus Christ and not confront the pain and fear and contradiction experienced by our neighbors in the “Gay community” who have cried out to God at one point in their life or another and asked to be different.

    If we confront the walking contradiction that the gay identity poses to the Gospel, as if it were our OWN, we would fight from our knees in a whole new way.I don’t think we’re ready to publically make a statement as a constitutency until we are dying for THESE our brothers and sisters – and not simply “DYING FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS”. And how can we die for our brothers’ lives and souls if we do not see them as our own?

    Let us insert ourselves into the fray as if we were confronting this giant challenging US – not just “Those unfortunate people who struggle with same sex attraction”. HOW would we fight then? HOW would we pray? HOW would we speak?

  185. How would we fight for wisdom and truth? How HARD would we fight to find the answer without renouncing God as sovereign, strong, loving and true to his Word?

  186. Andrew, of course not. The word says we’re engaged in spiritual warfare and tells us how to prepare ourselves. We believe God, then obey Him, then trust Him. Luther wrote: ‘Tho devils all the world should fill, all striving to undo us, we tremble not for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us.” From the hymn, A Mighty Fortress is Our God. Demons are no match for our mighty, risen Lord. We attract demons by giving them undue attention.

  187. I believe homosexual acts should be punished just as any other criminal act. Homosexuality is an abomination, a perversion, a society killing sin. To allow it to spread and not want it to be punished is to hate your neighbor and your community.This is a sin that should be judged within society, just as giving in to drunken behavior, stealing, murder, and rape. The danger this sin poses to our children is great. To accept homosexuals and their practices as “allowable” in society is NOT a Christian attitude, in my opinion. Before the US Supreme Court overturned sodomy laws, it was a punishable crime in many states. Now that it has been legitimized there is a rapid increase in homosexual deviancy in society.
    Christian, we ought not to play games with this sin. It is deadly and devastating to society. Would you legitimize theft or murder? Probably not, but you would accept a society where a teacher, a civic leader, a policeman, a soldier is a homosexual? We have lowered the standard of Christ to the dust, it seems. May God have mercy upon us and revive us from our deadness of conscience and politically correct thinking.

  188. 1) All hate is a waste of energy..
    2) It’s not being “politically correct” to understand and show compassion.
    3) The Holy Spirit takes a backseat to Christ: He is not to be exalted above Christ.
    4) If I start seeing angels or demons I’ll need serious therapy.
    5) Brevity is the soul of wit. A brief message is a powerful one.

  189. maizie Nov 8th 2010

    Mimi, not everyone knows that you have to walk the walk if you talk the talk but I am glad you do.
    You know, some fall away from not knowing what this is about.

  190. Maizie, it’s a joy to walk the walk, not an unpleasant duty. God gives the desire and the ability and blesses what He ordains. It’s the way of the transgressor that’s hard. Been there, too.

  191. wacasam Nov 9th 2010

    Not sure that I can go with the idea that “everyone is born with issues”, are we not created in God’s (Yehovah’s) image (Gen 1:26-27), created by the Creator who is without sin? So why would He create me with “issues”. Did man not perhaps choose to be disobedient? (Gen 3:6) and thereby sinned which brought about that the rule of this world was handed over to Satan and his foes?
    Would it not be more apt to interpret Ps 51:5 as the sin in which David’s mother was found having fallen short of the glory of Yehovah, needing redemption through our Messiah, just as Moses did (Heb 11:26)?

  192. Wacasam, You were not created, you were born. Only Adam was “created in God’s image and likeness.” Everyone else was born of the flesh, and the sins of the fathers were visited on the children unto the third and fourth generation. :O)

  193. HappyTrails Nov 9th 2010

    mimi…….I think perhaps it would be wise for you to ask GOD what to say before you speak….It’s called WALKING BY THE SPIRIT. You may have the IDEA right, but your words are not of the Spirit.

    mimi says:
    “wacasam,You were not created, you were born. Only Adam was “created in God’s image and likeness.” Everyone else was born of the flesh, and the sins of the fathers were visited on the children unto the third and fourth generation. :O)”

    Happy Trails comments:
    Pray and ask God to teach you about how wonderfully created you are…..It will change your life!

    Genesis 2:7; Gen 8:19; Psalm 33; psalm 74;Psalm 94 ; Psalm 99; Isaiah 43; Is 44; Is 45; Is 54

    1) to form, fashion, frame…as a potter with clay
    a) (Qal) to form, fashion
    1) of human activity
    2) of divine activity
    a) of creation
    1) of original creation
    2) of individuals at conception
    3) of Israel as a people
    b) to frame, pre-ordain, plan (fig. of divine) purpose of a situation)
    b) (Niphal) to be formed, be created
    c) (Pual) to be predetermined, be pre-ordained
    d) (Hophal) to be formed

  194. maizie Nov 9th 2010

    I am grateful for so many voices on here but have really been blessed by Tina Baxley’s sharing what God has done in her life.
    And Randall too. God is for us and even while we were still in our sin He rescued us and saved us. Praise God!!
    We had a song in the Baptist Church I attended as a child and it said, “It is no secret what God can do, what He has done for others, He’ll do for you”.

    Anna, your email didn’t work.(?)

    [email protected]

  195. Homosexuality only affects a small amount of people…why does the church spent so much time addressing this sin and NO time preaching against the rampant Divorce and Remarriage?

    Does Anyone Read the Bible these Days?
    “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
    —Jesus Christ

    In light of Jesus proclaiming that AFTER a divorce, adultery will take place if someone remarries, does that sound like they’re free from the marriage? It sure sounds to me that in God’s eyes a divorce does NOT dissolve the covenant of marriage.

    How can a minister perform the wedding of a divorced person when Jesus said that very night they will commit adultery?
    Most people have no idea what the Bible truly says about Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage.

    Think about it…
    At 6:30 p.m. the minister pronounces them husband and wife. After the minister claims that God has joined them together they go on a beautiful honeymoon and according to Jesus they commit adultery.

    Huh? Yes, that is what Jesus said, after a divorce and remarriage the parties are committing adultery against their spouse whom they thought they ditched at the courthouse. If you are committing adultery on your honeymoon …how can you be married?

    No truly married people commit adultery in their own marriage bed, people in the wrong marriage bed commit adultery. Remarriage puts people in the wrong marriage bed and that is why they are charged with adultery. Why did the minister pronounce them husband and wife if that very night they will be committing adultery I ask you?

    They cannot be husband and wife. You can not commit adultery with your own wife!

    Civil law may recognize this couple as a husband and wife but God
    does not. If God recognized this couple as a husband and wife, Jesus Himself would not be calling their honeymoon adultery!

    After they are remarried that is when the adultery kicks in…everyone who divorces their wife and then remarries…commits adultery. God calls married sex PURE but He calls remarried sex ADULTERY, unless your spouse has died. Romans 7:2-3

    Are remarried people married according to God? If you say yes, then why is God charging them with adultery? Can a real husband and wife ever be charged with adultery in their own marriage bed?
    Why doesn’t God see their marriage bed as pure? God calls their remarriage bed…adultery!

    “Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.”
    Hebrews 13:4

    Ever wonder why the ONLY people that are charged with adultery when they marry are divorced people, not single people, not widowed people, only divorced people?

    If someone thinks a divorced person is freed from their spouse, why then are they committing adultery when they have a sexual relationship with a new spouse?

    Divorce does not make you single.

    So the question is this…
    Do you believe a civil divorce dissolves an original marriage covenant according to Jesus? If it does, then Jesus has to stop calling their remarriage honeymoon adultery!

    “A wife is married to her husband as long as he lives.”
    1 Corinthians 7:39



  196. HappyTrails Nov 9th 2010

    Many have made VERY GOOD POINTS about DIVORCE AND REMARRIAGE in the “church” institute.

    Perhaps both divorce and homosexuality are ROOTED IN THE SAME SIN…….IDOLATRY!

    When was the last time you heard an anointed sermon on idolatry?

  197. To Luke 1618:

    What can a person do who was lawfully married in God’s sight, but one of them divorces and in the eyes of the law marries someone else?

    Is the one who was cheated out of their marriage forever barred from ever marrying again?

    Old Testament law states that once a person’s spouse has legally married someone else, that then they can never under any circumstances legally remarry the original spouse. To do so would be an abomination to God.

    What if God has not granted to the original cheated spouse the grace to remain single for the rest of this life?
    What are they to do?

  198. John 1:17: For the LAW was given by Moses, BUT grace and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ. The law of Moses is not our truth. Jesus is our truth (John 14:6). As a Jewish rabbi he taught the law but His atonement replaced Law with Grace.

  199. Happy Trails, sorry to upset you by my delivery. I never learned the art of “holy talk.” It doesn’t mean I’m not walking in the Spirit, and I fail to see how you could make that judgment on the basis of a short paragraph. I like to let the scripture say what it says in the proper context, rightly dividing the word of truth and without proof texting. Happy Trails to you!

  200. watchful Nov 9th 2010

    You are right about idolatry, Happy Trails. The Lord has been showing me a stronghold of idolatry that i entered into when very young, the wickedness of it, and that I truly deserve hell because of it. I was very shocked that one so young would know to do such a thing, but I suspect something similar has occurred with homosexuality as well. We are without excuse, He is just in His judgments – but praise the Lord He offers mercy through His Son if we will repent and humbly seek Him, and He is willing to help us unravel whatever our problems are and/or grant deliverance.

    Isa 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way [that] they knew not; I will lead them in paths [that] they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things STRAIGHT. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

    Jhn 1:23 He said, I [am] the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make STRAIGHT the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

    Pun intended!

  201. Anna,

    As Mimi said, we are not under the laws of Moses. I had an ongoing conversation with a “repentance” preacher quite a while ago and he brought in Deut. 24:1-4 as the reason why remarrieds could not “go back” to their covenant spouses. When I asked him why then he supported and quoted scripture at someone’s re-marriage to their covenant spouse, he backtracked and then said that this only applies to WOMEN who were remarried. Remarried men COULD go back to their covenant spouses and marry them again! Wow……:( I guess we all can find ways around doing what we want to do and use God’s Word to justify such things.

    In any case, what Jesus taught and commanded regarding marriage, as well as what Paul taught (which he made clear was COMMANDED by the Lord) is how God views marriage—and has “since the beginning”. In the OT times, before Jesus came in the flesh, many sins were “tolerated” due to man’s hard-heartedness—-polygamy, divorce/remarriage, concubines, etc. All the above were forms of ADULTERY against one’s original marriage partner—the One God joined them to as One flesh. Jesus set the record straight, hence His disciples’ strong reaction to His teaching.

    When Jesus came, all that was no longer acceptable—for ALL mankind, not just “Christians”. When Jesus spoke on marriage, divorce, remarriage(adultery), He did not speak different things to His followers than He spoke to the masses and the UNconverted religous. He set the same standard for ALL.

    Anna, if the “you” is you, I encourage you to seek the Lord to have Him help you see your spouse as HE sees. If your spouse left you and is with another, he is in adultery—he is blinded…….it matters not if the civil laws have put their stamp of approval on this relationship. The most important thing is for your spouse to come to a place of repentance and reconciliation with the Lord as the Lord made it clear that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Nothing is too difficult for the Lord and nothing more precious than a faithful spouse standing in the gap for the one God joined them to—when they need you most.

    Many who say they are Christians today, sadly, have no genuine faith. They act like they faith—for miraculous healings, for finances to pay the bills, for EVERYTHING but the healing of the ONE FLESH union HE created. If one goes astray………..and stays astray for a certain amount of time, it is viewed as a “lost cause”!? I think deep down people really KNOW a person is NEVER a lost cause, cause if that was the truth, MOST OF US WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN SAVED!!! The truth is this: most do not WANT the other person anymore, so that is why they do not remain faithful, but move on to another person and in so doing, end up in sin themselves according to what Jesus taught. I pray the Church would WAKE UP and REPENT!

  202. Tina Baxley Nov 9th 2010

    The more I read on this thread the more war I see coming to the forefront. One thing I was quickened with is how can they take life when they can not give it?
    As I pondered this I was made to see that everyone wants to point and say how wrong it is to be gay, but want to be blind in their deliverance of their message, instilling fear into the hearts of the readers. Will some stop the practice of homosexuality? probably but yet they are still without life, as only he can give life because He IS life. His thoughts and ways are NOT like ours, and are Higher. I am seeing stones thrown to kill any hope that a person may have to take one step towards the Lord of mercy and goodness and love, and not only receive deliverance but receive LIFE. truth is God does not like homosexuality, but neither does He condone murderous words be thrown around with the word love attached to them. If one really wants to see people delivered from this atrocity, then why not do as he said–ASK, ask that He free them, ask that He forgive them as they know not what they do, ask that He give them life? To be given life is the only thing the enemy can not counterfeit.
    Thank you for allowing me to make my comments.
    love, peace and blessings to all from Yeshua Ha Mashiach

  203. I wish people would visit an Exodus meeting, see the victims of homosexuality in person and hear their struggles as I have. You might leave with a changed attitude. Sex isn’t only about the sex act: it’s about one’s core identity and every aspect of his/her life. There’s NOT a miraculous cure for every problem, but there is grace and mercy with the Savior. There’s far too much uninformed legalism and judgment. What if one of your children/grandchildlren is afflicted? Homosexuality is a condition, not an act. The ACT is wrong but the CONDITION is just that. I spouted the same rhetoric until a wonderful, godly, devout Christian (lifelong celibate) man of 70 years said to me, “You don’t know what you’re talking about. For all you know I could be a homosexual.” The Word says God comforts us in our affliction and gives grace for every trial. He doesn’t promise to heal our infirmities but in every situation He offers grace for trials, loving compassion and overcoming power. Homosexuality may be nothing more than a person’s cross to bear.

  204. ~Hanna~ Nov 10th 2010

    I do believe the homosexual lifestyle is a sin. If anyone here knows anyone who is gay, try to befriend them, gain their respect and share the love of Christ with them. Many gay men/women have a root/spirit of rejection….they are also very supportive of each other, like family. Many of the church’s fail people in this area, Tammy Fay Baker told about when she had cancer, the gay community is the group that loved and accepted her, the Christian’s shunned her.

    Why would they leave their group only to be shunned or rejected? They won’t, that is just it.

  205. ~Hanna~ Nov 10th 2010

    @Tina: you prove my point in your post..I wholeheartedly agree.

  206. Andrew Nov 10th 2010

    I agree with reaching out with real compassion and grace to these people.

    That is the right approach!


  207. Hanna says: I do believe the homosexual lifestyle is a sin. If anyone here knows anyone who is gay, try to befriend them, gain their respect and share the love of Christ with them. Excellent advice. But several loved ones have struggled with homosexuality since childhood and they already are devout Christians, mature in their faith. No, they don’t do the act. But are they still homosexual? YES. And past their mid-thirties. It’s how they’re wired, for whatever reason. The tracks are laid down. They can no more become heterosexual than most of us could become homosexual. God doesn’t heal all our afflictions, but He will cover the thorn in the flesh with grace and lift the heavy end of the yoke.

  208. Maizie: we have not connected. note my address is not com, but ca. sometimes that is an error. Check your garbage boxes to see if it was thought to be garbage.
    Whether or not we are able to connect, may God bless you immensely, and may He be in the way for any evil one trying to prevent communication.
    Glory unto God alone!
    He and He alone will have all the glory, honour and praise! Now and forever! Amen!
    Anna, one with a very tender heart.
    Glory unto God alone !!!

  209. If you look at the lists of sins in Romans 1, you may notice one called not having mercy. That sin is just as bad as the sexual sins, and is committed constantly by the church leaders. Many Christians today no longer go to organized churches, because of the mercilessness rampant therein. I rarely go to any church building any more. it is not worth all the condemnation. And I am not gay; my conscience is clear. O how the Father mourns the stoning within what is called His church. “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” Those who stone me I will bless. Yeshua Ha Maschia has given me a very tender heart, but He alone will be my defense. To Him alone be all the glory!

  210. ~Hanna~ Nov 10th 2010

    @ Mimi: ok.

  211. watchful Nov 10th 2010

    “They can no more become heterosexual than most of us could become homosexual. God doesn’t heal all our afflictions,..”

    Mimi, the word of God says differently. There are testimonies here on this thread that should give hope to those struggling with any sin, whether homosexuality or anything else. It is in the process of making our paths straight, in whatever sense they became crooked, that we pave the way for the Lord Jesus to come. It might seem impossible to our natural eyes/minds, but with God all things are possible. In my own life He has shown me two strongholds by His Spirit, one of which I mentioned earlier and though I’m not there yet, I know deliverance is possible for myself or anyone as we continue on the narrow path seeking the Lord!

    2Cr 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;..”

    The most important weapon we have is the cross that we carry to crucify our flesh as we deny ourselves and follow Jesus – which is not preached or understood in most churches today. Truth is another weapon, forgiveness also, and repentance another… I fully believe there is no stronghold that can stand against these weapons which are mighty THROUGH GOD..

    The scriptures talk about our faith being tested, proven, and often this is a pre-requisite before we are given deliverance, the testing is part of the cross we carry, and through it we “buy”, ie, pay the price for, the extra oil for our lamps, and “buy” gold refined in the fire…

    1Pe 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

    1Pe 1:7 These have come so that your faith-of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

  212. watchful Nov 10th 2010

    Agree with you about the churches, Anna, humanly speaking we seem to err by either being humanistically accepting of sin or condemning of people, alternating back and forth like a pendulum. I’ve noticed that in myself. Truth is we can’t get it right ourselves, it must be by the Spirit – only He can get it right and somehow combines the hard truth with mercy and love all at once in a way mortals just can’t. Most churches, most of us, are spiritually ‘immature’ in that sense, not walking in/by the Spirit.

    But I know the Lord is angry about all the lost sheep who have been kept out of the Father’s house because of condemnation. Many have formed their own churches, but err on the side of humanistic acceptance of sin and so don’t grow in those areas that they most need to, and can.

  213. Watchful: With God all things are possible but a few things are unlikely. God doesn’t heal every disease/affliction in the present church age. Second, there’s a difference between the homosexual condition (not a sin) and the homosexual act. God’s remedy for homosexuality is celibacy. It’s a lot easier than being beaten, shipwrecked or torn asunder by wild animals. Submit to God: resist the devil and he will flee from you. Often, God is glorified in our infirmities. His grace is sufficient. His strength is made perfect in our weakness.

  214. Tina Baxley Nov 10th 2010

    For the life of me, I do not understand why we insist on examining the sinner and not the sacrifice. Is not this what the priest of old did? Wasn’t it the sacrifice that had to be without spot and blemish? Is not this what they examined?
    Are we not called to be a priestly people? Then why are we looking at the sinner and not their sacrifice?
    Isn’t the perfection that He is looking for is the perfection of love not law keeping?
    Perhaps I should have included in my testimony that before the deliverance of homosexuality was granted to me, I had to be delivered of hatred, bitterness, unbelief, strife, judgment and every ugly thing that can be named.
    These were the things that god wanted to deal with first and foremost before he ever touched on that defect of my life. But even then, I was excepted in the Beloved.
    before this time, I was not prejudice, I hated everyone, unless you were a child, an animal or an old person, or in a group that I could identify with.
    Iron sharpened iron in that i had an axe to grind with everyone if they crossed me, or did not believe as I did.
    How wrong I was when He showed me this, only to find that, that which I was fighting was much like me and had their axes to grind. I then had to be granted the ability to love and not walk away from a mirror forgetting that I too looked like everybody else before being delivered of all this hatred and unnatural affection of the people created in God’s image. When this process of elimination was completed it was then He could deal with my sexual inadequacies and victory was won. Because His love for me, He was blinded because love sees no faults.
    Someone wrote that the word had to be preached.
    My understanding is the Gospel has to be preached.
    The Gospel is the Gospel of peace. Peace between man and God and man and man.
    I used to be the rider of every horse in Revelation, and especially the red one. I had a great sword/my tongue, and I went about taking peace from people but cutting them with my words, unbridled in my thoughts, word and deeds, until Yeshua broke my spirit and bridled me, and removed my spots and blemishes, and now rides me.
    My hope is to reach a point where He can drop the reins and ride with no resistance and I not buck Him off but continue in peace and love.

  215. watchful Nov 10th 2010

    Oh ye of little faith!

  216. watchful Nov 10th 2010

    ..that was meant for Mimi..

  217. watchful Nov 10th 2010

    Tina, the priests may examine the sacrifice, but isn’t it needful that we also examine ourselves? In my life it’s the Sacrifice that is giving me the courage to do so, the knowledge of His grace and mercy and power…

  218. Tina Baxley Nov 10th 2010

    Watchful, I agree with you about SELF examination, not examining others. When I examine myself by the light then I see His glory and not mine, yet I want to look like Him and so as darkness leaves He can be brighter through me.
    I do not judge after the flesh, as flesh and blood does not enter the Kingdom, however our spirit can. It is here that we see how really in lack we are, and can then ask of more of Him and less of us. He is trying to make spiritual sons, ones that want to look like their Heavenly Father.
    Let’s face it, for me to be here arguing the point makes me deficient but yet my HOPE and substance is he that even in the twinkling of an eye can change everything about me to where I open not my mouth except to bless.
    Let’s look at it as if in school– would God judge them as a college student if they were only in 3rd grade in His school? Certainly not. It is those who know better and do not the attitude and things of which He commands that will receive the more stripes.
    My main purpose is to win them to Him, catch if you will and allow Him to clean. If they be slow learners then so be it, they are in the Lords hand and He said that he did NOT lose one– I believe this– perhaps my faith is bigger than my reality but I believe it because He said it, and I was one of them.

  219. I have to agree with Watchful concering the healing of homosexuality. It CAN and HAS been done time after time when the one afflicted fully devotes themselves to the Lord, not only in this area as Tina has spoken, but in other areas where they are in bondage to sin.

    In Mt. 5 Jesus speaks of adultery—IN THE HEART. See, it is not only the outward action that is sin, but it is something FIRST in the heart–which may or may not manifest physically. If one restrains their flesh, submitting themselves to God, eventually the Devil will flee and this person will no longer struggle with this sin—they are now an overcomer in this area of life. However, if they restrain their flesh, but secretly hold on to the desires of the acts, they will struggle over and over and over and over with these hidden, unnatural affections—whether it be an affection to children, the same sex, the opposite sex who are “off limits”, etc. It all has to do with SUBMITTING ONESELF to the LORD in addition to RESISTING the DEVIL………and it all begins in the heart. For any who would say one can merely resist, but they are STILL homosexual, this goes against what Paul said, “Such WERE some of you”. Once one has been delivered from the bondage of any sin, they are that person NO MORE. It is GONE.

    Many of us speak about the OUTWARD sins in the church (especially the sexual ones), but the reality is this—-and only God can see some of these sins—-some that most certainly align with “brethren, whosoever doeth……….., …………, …………., etc. will NOT inherit the kingdom of God”. We can and SHOULD address those sins seen in the physical IN THE CHURCH, but we should not be so high-minded as to think each of us is “there” yet with all the “hidden” sins within ourselves. Sanctification is a process with each and every one who is a TRUE believer. Some seem to think some sins should be VERY obvious based upon what God’s Word says about them, but obviously that is NOT the case when we look at many churches today who are practicing or accepting of sins the Lord has spoken about. There is a blindness which is prevailing and THAT needs to be prayed for diligently—the blindness in ourselves that refuses to see as God sees and the blindness in others that holds them in bondage to their sins. Blessings…………

    Ps. Anna, you are right. There are MANY Christians who no longer go to organized churches today. Some due to personal offense (someone didn’t do/say the right things), which is a WRONG reason not to fellowship. When we say there is a lack of mercy in the churches and are offended by that, we must admit we too have a lack of mercy—–TOWARDS THEM in their sinfulness/seeming lack of care. Mercy works both ways. Sometimes though, when one is blind and cannot walk in mercy, then the other who CAN see needs to show mercy/kindness towards the one who is not merciful/kind—as an example. Many have been great examples to me in this area of the Christian walk. I hope, Anna, if that is the issue with you, that the Lord heal any hurts in you due to those who have not walked in mercy towards you. Us Christians can be real stupid and thoughtless at times…….many times in our displaced zealousness.

    As for other reasons why people don’t attend churches anymore, the reasons are vast. For me, I don’t because my husband and I were asked to find other church when we started asking questions about divorce/remarriage and the practices of our church. We were not nasty…..we just wanted answers based upon God’s Word—-not based upon a book written by so and so or a brochure. This was a VERY bible based church (and I know, most churches say they are, but few really ARE bible based)–one we were happily serving in– and this church even practiced church discipline—with LOVE and a desire to restore the one in error. However, on this one issue the church did not want to deal—so they told us to find another church that “believes like we do”. Since then, after dialoging with pastor after pastor we have found that this one issue is the dividing line. You can go to church as long as you are “silent” and don’t make anyone uncomfortable with your views of “marriage for life”. Because people watch us (all Christians), we feel we cannot regularly go to any church. If we do, we then put our stamp of approval on that churches’ teachings and practices, therefore the UNbelievers and possibly immature believer will think it a “good” place to fellowship. We will not appear to support ANY ministry that openly supports immorality—homosexuality, adultery, or fornication………..and NOT dealing with the sins within IS support to us. Even if a pastor tells us he believes the bond of marriage (the original marriage) lasts for LIFE, but will not deal with those in adultery in their congregation/membership, his “beliefs” are worthless unless there is legs behind it (faith without works).

  220. Tina Baxley Nov 10th 2010

    Please forgive me but I was speaking of unnatural affection as being judgmental and hateful and bitter and unforgiving.
    I was not speaking of it as a homosexual act, as that is not unnatural for beasts to do.
    The sword that I used to saw usunder and wound is an unnatural affection when God is love. He caused me to exchange my sword for a plowshare. I gladly did this and saw that He now had the sword and with this sword, He beheaded ever carnal thought while my neck was His footstool. Well a person can not live without a head, so He gave me His. Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus.

  221. Watchful, don’t fall off your perch and hurt yourself.

  222. watchful Nov 10th 2010

    I don’t disagree with the things you are saying Tina, you’re talking from a higher place than me. He whom the Son sets free is free indeed! I do so rejoice in what God has done in your life. Your last paragraph to Cindy about the sword and exchanging your head for His has been my prayer for a long time, I’m not there yet obviously, think I’m a stubborn case..but thankfully He is greater than my stubbornness, and I have hope in His promises to me. God bless you and give you a boatload of fish!

  223. watchful Nov 10th 2010

    Mimi, I hope I do fall off my perch.

  224. Tina Baxley Nov 10th 2010

    I was as stubborn as they come– I was going to change His mind about my homosexuality– I guess He got the last laugh, and I am so grateful He did. I do not know what your stubbornness is, however I believe that He will give you what you ask for, so just keep asking.
    Please I encourage you to help me get a boatload of fish, as you are in Him and I also and so in each other.
    Father told me years ago that the secret is in the lure. I shall never forget this. I pray you much peace and joy as you shed your skin and become naked of all vanities.
    God bless you my friend

  225. Tina Baxley Nov 10th 2010

    Now you did it watchful– Now you are making me cry tears of joy — with your last remark to Mimi, you just made a first step in handing over your sword to the Master for His use– just keep on keeping on!!
    I won’t tell you it is easy, though it does get easier.
    Much love from the heart and not the lips!!

  226. Tina Baxley Nov 10th 2010

    watchful– By the way, you may fall off a perch, but I fell off a throne, a throne in which the KING of KINGS was able to put Himself in His rightful place in my heart and mind.
    Babylon truly fell that day, and I do not regret a thing!!

  227. Tina,

    When I was speaking about what you wrote, that is exactly what I meant (bitterness, unforgiveness, etc). As for “unnatural affections”, I used that phrase later in my post as God’s Word uses it—in regards to relations that are NOT natural. In the animal world, homosexuality happens, but it certainly is not “natural”. Natural, means to live just as God intended for His creation to live. God did not create animals to copulate with the same sex, so homosexuality is just as “unnatural” for animals as it is for humans. Blessings…..

  228. watchful Nov 10th 2010

    Amen, Tina..God bless the new creation that you are. I don’t quite understand what that stubborness is myself, I’m not down to the bottom of things yet, but praying for more light.. I will pray for your catch!

  229. Tina Baxley Nov 11th 2010

    Forgive my misunderstanding of your post.

  230. No problem, Tina. I am blessed by your testimony, so thank you so much for sharing that. God is wonderful to work in each of our lives to bring us to a place of humility and brokenness to Glorify His name.

  231. Tina Baxley Nov 11th 2010

    Amen Cindy Amen!!
    I just love to sit and watch what He is doing in the lives of others!! Simply beautiful!!!

  232. I agree, Tina! Nothing is TOO hard for Him when we submit ourselves to Him. I read testimonies all the time and find myself crying at what God is doing in people’s lives. It IS beautiful. I know what He did in mine and it was MUCH and the “work” continues on and on……….:) so, I praise Him everytime I see/hear how other’s lives have drastically changed under His loving Hand of conformation.

    So many “fight” to hold on to sinful things(their rights, people, anger, unforgiveness, bitterness, etc) that are not of God, that when they finally DO let go and submit themselves to His Lordship in their lives, they experience a peace and tranquility that they never could have found otherwise. When we as believers see others experience that, it is such a JOY even when there is pain involved in “letting go”—-because we know the “end” of it is nothing but GOOD!!!

  233. Tina Baxley Nov 11th 2010

    Cindy, i could not agree more– that is why I do not want to look at the faults and just behold the beauty of the Lord!!!

  234. I understand this, Tina. It is much more pleasant to focus on the “good” of God we see in others rather than the “sinfulness”that has not yet been dealt with……..yet, the reality is within the CHURCH there are certain things that have to be dealt with and purged in order for the BODY to be healthy and continue to grow into a healthy entity that reflects HIM. (I Cor. 5)

    Jesus spoke in Mt. 7 about “judging”, yet He did not say NOT to judge the Brethren, He said not to do so in hypocrisy (take the plank out of your own eye so that you can then help your brother)………..the end goal of all Godly judging is reconciliation and restoration, not to “throw away” the person considered to be without worth to the Body. The “throw away” mentality unfortunately pervades much of the “religious” confessing church and I think that is what sends many who are in bondage and in need of LOVING correction, guidance, and deliverance away from the church. :(

  235. Tina Baxley Nov 11th 2010

    I am sorry Cindy, He also said that we would judge angels.
    I told Him that I could judge no one and am not equipped to do so as I have done much sin and would then feel like a hypocrite. Perhaps I am being disobedient for not wanting to judge, but it is safer that way.
    He told me, would you offer swine to the King? I pondered this in my heart only to realize that swine is portrayed as an unclean thing. How was I offering swine to the King?
    I then understood it was unclean to judge/ curse that which He calls clean.
    When we come to Him, we are not male or female but like angels and even Michael said –The Lord rebuke you and made no railing accusations, and was dealing with the devil and yet we are dealing with they who are made in His image. Sorry, i can not judge, just bless and offer clean things to the Lord.