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-Author Unknown.

Once upon a time, when the village had thatched roofs and no fire prevention system, a fire broke out on one of the roofs…

The people saw the fire and immediately formed a bucket brigade
stretching from the central well to the fire. Through quick and
concerted effort the fire was put out and the whole village saved.
People in the town were immensely grateful, and as a result some
founded the Bucket Brigade Society which took to practicing
faithfully every week.

Soon the Brigade developed a hierarchy. The chief bucketeer
became very influential, in many ways more important than the
mayor. All the best people belonged to the Brigade and to be a
member meant to gain status in the community.

The society wrote songs to be sung during their practices, and
created elaborate and beautiful methods of passing the buckets.
Even after the village had been covered over and a fire department
formed, the Brigade continued.

Then one day, a young recruit happened to look down into the
bucket she was passing: But there’s no water in the bucket, she
observed with surprise.

After that, the young began drifting away, no longer especially
interested in the Brigade at all.

That is the trouble with ego religion.

It retains the tradition but loses the substance.

And the substance is faith in the heavenly mystery.

Ego religion has it’s rewards.

It elevates you above your neighbors,

assures you that you are right and virtuous,

and makes you happy that you are not “one of those.”

Ego religion can even justify

hating and killing those with whom you disagree. (-Author unknown).

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on June 5th, 2012 at 5:48 pm.


170 Replies

  1. Marc Wildman Jun 5th 2012

    I don’t know who wrote this, but I awoke this morning and was speaking to my wife about this very same phenomenon. This essay was a complete confirmation.

    Sunday we visited a Church and instead of the so-called hierarchy setting the tone for worshiping God, allowing the Holy Spirit to take over the meeting, instead two hours were spent on the ‘Bucket-Brigade’s Hierarchy, their exploits, ‘four and no more mentality, and the spirit of God was soon quenched. Once again, man was placed on the throne. We saw an immediate separation almost as if the veil (in the temple) was sown back together and there was now a wall of separation/partition placed between the robed ones and the peasants sitting apathetically in the congregation enduring the vaulting of men. There is nothing wrong or unscriptural about having the five-fold ministry, Patrons, Deacons, and Elders as long as these conduct themselves Biblically as defined in the Book of Acts.

    What’s the solution? ‘Stop putting (supporting) anything in the Bucket!”

  2. marc wildman Jun 5th 2012


    I don’t know who wrote this, but I awoke this morning and was speaking to my wife about this very same phenomenon. This essay was a complete confirmation.

    Sunday we visited a Church and instead of the so-called hierarchy setting the tone for worshiping God, allowing the Holy Spirit to take over the meeting, instead, two hours were spent on the ‘Bucket-Brigade’s Hierarchy, their exploits, the ‘four and no more mentality, and the spirit of God was soon quenched.

    Once again man was placed on the throne. We saw an immediate separation almost as if the veil (in the temple) was sown back together and there was now a wall of separation/partition placed between the robed ones and the peasants sitting apathetically in the congregation enduring the vauting of men Kings.

    There is nothing wrong or unscriptural about having the five-fold ministry, Pastors, Deacons, and Elders, as long as these conduct themselves Biblically as defined in the Book of Acts.

    What’s the solution? “Stop putting anything in the Bucket, or rather pour in some water instead of mammon!


  3. marc wildman Jun 5th 2012

    Sorry, accidentaly posted twice.

  4. Lisa Gungor- Shiny Buildings

    So we saw the world was broken So we built our sturdy walls Only pieces fit inside them Separation for us all

    Art and architecture focused All to point to something else Slowly turning into stages Where we’re pointing to ourselves

    When we saw the world was broken We built our sturdy walls Shiny buildings filled with flat screen TVs And all you could want

    We made politics and doctrine For our children to employ Made of faith, much like our walls If there’s a hole, it’s all destroyed

    If you’re lucky, you will find us And we’ll learn to sound the same But if you should fail to hear it, To will surely feel the flames

    Shiny buildings filled with flat screen TVs And all you could want I helped build it, never knowing That my God might never fit —

  5. Mike Livi Jun 5th 2012

    Amen to that.

  6. Roxylee Jun 5th 2012

    Our ego pride can rear up anywhere, and it usually does. People want to be somebody, instead of serving quietly. I see the same thing happening now among people who have split off from organized churches because they wanted equality, not a hierarchy. They call themselves organic and equal, but the same thing happens. I heard a woman say “I’m an Evangelist, I’m not going to babysit.”

    When we choose only a certain way we are willing to serve, sooner or later we will feel entitled. Placing one gift or ministry above another, no matter what the setting, will quench the Spirit.

  7. kelling Jun 5th 2012

    Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the middle of wolves: be you therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you. Matt 10: 16-17

  8. Steve Australia Jun 5th 2012

    I see a lot “My Ministry’s” in the churches, a lot of words but no power, even at the church I attend, there micro managed, so much so Gods voice doesnt get a time slot, theres no power, they dont let the voice of God in. Theres 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit, God has a voice in the voice gifts, yet the churches wont let him speak its so sad. All I can do is to be open to God to speaking in my own family, and Im trying to educate folk in our home group. At the moment the churches are all about the man and his ministry.
    Its not about man its about Jesus and his voice in the church. So many empty buckets pretending that there full, so much deception

  9. Steve Nixon (formerly, sontrans) Jun 5th 2012


    I find myself still going back to refer to some of the wonderful posts

  10. Anything can become a “religion” – whether it is inside a church building, in a home church, or in the individual life of one who has decided to leave the organized church so it’s “just Jesus and me.”

    Every true born-again believer needs to guard against their relationship with Christ slipping into a religion.

    Paul exhorts us in 2 Corinthians 13:5, “Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you are disqualified.”

    Instead of pointing fingers at others, let us continually examine ourselves to make sure that we are still “in the faith” – actively living in Christ Jesus according to the doctrines laid down by Him and the Apostles. It is easy to find faults in others, but not so easy in ourselves.

    Let us seek God as the man after God’s own heart, David, did when He prayed, “Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.” Psalm 139:23-24 (KJV)

    May God bless and so lead us,

  11. Lord Jesus, please bring back the fire and let us rejoice in You alone and let Your name be glorified !

  12. If a gathering has a five-fold ministry who would be in charge?If you say anyone other Jesus you would be wrong.So many want to wear labels ,titles.There is one great shepherd,one great pastor,one Reverend,one Father,one Vicar and it isn’t the pope.Paul said he was an apostle because he was sent .He didn’t go around announcing he was an APOSTLE.For years people wanted to be the pastor or the rev.because they were the recipients of the tithe scheme.Then a scheme was hatched for the prophet to get money and then the apostle and so people wanted those titles and all are without power.Empty cisterns that make a hollow sound.
    God Bless

  13. I’ve learned in all my 70 years as a Christian that we can never trust our old nature. Without God as our constant source, life goes on but not Up. Even as Christians we tend to see with our minds, not with our hearts. When you begin to see through your heart, The real ‘Life’ begins.

  14. sharon Jun 5th 2012

    So how does man get rid of tradition? Just don’t DO it. sounds simple, yet we are such creatures of habit. And if we don’t do it, someone might call us rebellious or think we see our selves as better than them. Woe, what a dilemma. Can we love each other without discernment turning to judgement ? I think so. Church’ organic’ is what I hear, and want a clearer understanding.
    In our home we speak of Christ and how He leads us. Fellowship with others when situation permits. Communication is sadly lacking in group settings. Can’t make folks speak up, they gotta be led to do that. “To will is present with us”, yet we know Christ can deliver us from ego. The surrender part is the stumbling block.

  15. Most people reading this are thinking about “the other church” and how it applies to them but in reality it speaks to the vast majority (99%) of christianity out there ESPECIALLY those who think they are part of the prophetic and apostolic movements. I recently visited a church that is ‘supposedly” on the cutting edge. This is the first time I have been in church in 11 years. The sad thing is that these people who are “suppose” to be filled with knowledge and wisdom are no further along in their spiritual development that most of the “institutional” churches out there. They only “think” they are because of the big worship team and the well known pastor and “apostolic” covering that they have. A simple 5 minute conversation with those in the church and listening to a few on line sermons reveals how devoid they are of any spiritual knowedge or insight.

  16. JayTee Jun 5th 2012

    Worship of empty tradition is nothing new. Mark 7:8,13: “You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down”

  17. “hating and killing those with whom you disagree”

    sadly this goes on in so many circles that do not 100% agree with someone’s views. We need to have grace and mercy for others in the body of Chris that differ then us.

  18. One thing I forgot. What most are calling “cutting edge christianity” or the “non-traditional church” has become nothing more than the same “tradition’ or “form” or “idol” that the institutional church has only in a different form. It’s the same idolotry only in a different form. It’s yet another manifestation of man’s “religion” only in a different form. Christianity renounces the “sin of Jeroboam” that ALL are involved in. The pastor/leader driven church in ANY form is just another manifestation of the sin of Jeroboam driven by fear and unbelief in God’s ability through the Holy Spirit to raise up His children. It’s the erection of a new place of worship away from that “spiritual” Jerusalem that leads people away from being lead and taught by God himself and to a place were MAN is in control and not God.

  19. Lee Holley Jun 5th 2012

    I try hard to be noble as a Berean, Acts 17:10-12, and thus hear any man or woman but then listen to what Our Great God says, and I could not find any basis of the WORD. More and more I find that Satan loves to get us to listen alone from humans and thus not listen to Yeshua nor His Father, nor helped by the Holy Spirit. Let us just be His disciples, a true disciples, and hear only the Parables from the WORD, I have over 200 now that are ignored, and they say that over a third in the New Covenant are Parables, most also in the Old Testament. I do not to get called into by human parables, not supported by God, even when we think so.

  20. Teshuva Jun 6th 2012

    I find much to the parable listed above, but I do agree that most of the scriptures are parabolic and allegoric in nature.
    We are to seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all things will be added.

    Thatched roof= carnal mind
    bucket brigade=children of God
    Central well= Yeshua
    hierarchy=removal of central well/Yeshua and start of ego/building own kingdom
    bucket=key of knowledge, which the hierarchy throws away and does not enter the Kingdom of God and keeps others from doing so as well.
    water=substance/wisdom of God that is higher than an ego.
    empty bucket=no substance, and empty theology.

  21. JeffM Jun 6th 2012

    From the article,

    “And the substance is faith in the heavenly mystery”

    That is not in The Word of God, it could mean anything. Faith in Jesus as Lord is real easy to type out, if that is what you mean.
    The website you got this from is full of false teaching, like we are supposed to observe the old testament feasts and strange stuff about covenents.I think this should be removed if you want to teach people what The Lord has to say about “church” because this is not pointing people to Jesus. And that website is a wolf’s den of confusing doctrine.

  22. All are good points. But I like Brother Greg’s the best. I think that is God’s heart.
    As for me I have a full time job keeping my heart right with God. We are called to pray for those whom the Holy Spirit reveals things to us about with a pure heart.
    As for fellowship, well, I have done Church as usual and to be honest I am at a place where I long & hunger for the simplicity of our walk with Jesus. Fellowship with those who want to spend time in prayer and reading Scripture & excited about what the Lord is doing. Ones whose hearts ache for the lost, the hurting etc. and understand the need and power of prayer. For the ones who are deceived, that the Lord will lift the deception. We are all deceived at one time or another. At this point in my life, I just cant do Church as usual any longer. It was useful for a long season in my life and the Lord used it. But it has no appeal to me any longer.
    I pray we all can and will continue to allow the Holy Spirit to shine His light on each of us to keep us close to Him with a pure heart. Help me Lord, keep me. Much AGAPE.

  23. Parable of the Bucket Brigade has always been one of my favorites.

    The other day I was listening to Jack VanNepe (sp) discussing the move towards New Age in the churches of today. He was upholding “fundementalism” and went on to list the five events of Jesus that fundementalist churches adhere to. As I heard them, I felt that two extremely strong events were not listed. I feel that these same events that were not listed by someone who really pats themselves on the back for their fundamental foundations are key to what is also being pointed out in the Bucket Brigade.

    The 5 points he listed were: (I listed the 5th as 7 because of the two important events Jack left out…that come before the last one he listed.

    1..Christ is God

    2..Was Virgin Born

    3. Died on the Cross

    4. Rose from the Dead

    7. He is coming again.

    What was missing…..? After 4. should be inserted these two VERY important events.

    5. He Ascended to Heaven

    6. He gave us the HOLY SPIRIT to reside with Us.

    The HOLY SPIRIT is what is missing in the bucket. We need to emmerse ourselves in the Holy Spirit…the only perfect Guide in our walk with Christ and our study of the Bible. The Holy Spirit is His Arms around us, supporting us, leading us, feeding us, loving us. We are not alone because of the Holy Spirit…our bucket is not empty when He fills it. When we love Him above anything else on Earth….He keeps that bucket full….He keeps pouring into it…as we jostle and loose it’s contents in our current life of imperfections.

  24. Martin Jun 6th 2012

    Several threads before this have ranged across the area of what is Church and what is not. So many of us on here are outside the camp, unchurched, much to the annoyance of a few.

    So, in deference to this threads subject line, let’s lay out what constitutes a New Testament Church; what is it that the bucket lacks, indeed, what form should the bucket take? Perhaps who should hold the bucket ready for use?

  25. Martin Jun 6th 2012

    Claudia, you beat me to it!

  26. Roger Souden Jun 6th 2012

    I have shared this with a number of people recently –

    “..The Holy Spirit transforms us through the renewal of our mind (Rom. 12:2). It is in our thoughts that the seed of true Christ-like humility is sown. It is not by our actions or by our behaviour before others but rather by our thoughts (when we are by ourselves) that we can ascertain whether we are being transformed into Christlikeness in this area or not – our thoughts concerning ourselves and about how we compare with others….

    ….All through Jesus’ life He kept going down. He came down from Heaven and kept going down, down, down all the way to the cross. Never once did He reverse this direction and seek to go up.

    There are only two spirits operating on the earth today. One, the spirit of Satan (Lucifer) urging people to go up – whether it be in the world or in Christendom. The other, the Spirit of Christ leading people to go down like their Master. Like the corn of wheat, Jesus went down, and all His true disciples can be identified unmistakably by this characteristic…..”

    The above extract from Zac Poonen, “Living as Jesus lived”, (ch.2 Humility) http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/book_window.php?book=living_as_jesus_lived

  27. look at the birds of the air Jun 6th 2012

    The parable of the 10 Virgins
    Matthew 25

    25:1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins
    who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

    25:2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

    25:3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,

    25:4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

    25:5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

    25:6 And at midnight a cry was heard:
    ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’

    25:7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.

    25:8 And the**** foolish said to the ***wise,
    ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

    25:9 But the wise answered, saying,
    ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you;
    but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’

    25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came,
    And those who were ready went in with him to the wedding;
    and the door was *shut.

    25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying,
    ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’

    25:12 But he answered and said,
    ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

    25:13* Watch therefore,
    for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

    It is the Spirit of the Lord, the oil of His Spirit that is poured into our beings. If I were to see anything about the bucket, it would have the clanging or the tinkling of a clanging symbol.Why because THAT bucket above is emtpy. I also think of the woman at the well, Jesus met her and said if you would drink from me, you would never thirst.

    The bucket is emtpy to me no life, no oil and as the 5 foolish , not ready. Standing around , with a clanging emtpy bucket- clanging because it is tin, perhaps in anothers- plastic- fake.

    This is what I draw from – His Living Waters, Jesus and His words, for they are life, life eternal. to me the sweetest words from anothers mouth would be, I was taught not by man but by the Father, the Son, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. You see that removes the middle man and this To GOD BE the GLORY!

    “The spirit of a man is the candle of the Lord,
    Searching all the inward parts of the belly.” Prov 20:27

    So the lamp, or candle of the Lord is the spirit of man.
    There is a pure holy flame present and visible to others, – if he is alive and awake.
    Time to walk away from apostate organized religion and if u have, make sure it has left you as well. To God be the GLORY, always and ever, AMEN! Praise God for HIS TRUE PARABLES!

  28. Martin Jun 6th 2012

    look at the birds of the air: Time to walk away from apostate organized religion and if u have, make sure it has left you as well.

    Ah! Thereby hangs some of the problem for so many of us, Bird of the Air.

    A chorister in the High Anglican Church at nine years old, Senior Chorister, Altar Boy, Server, went through the whole gamut. The smells, bells, ceremonial, frocks, the whole shebang. Even put up twice to be an Anglican priest!

    Came out from all that when I was 29 years old.

    Today, at 61, I watched a service of thanksgiving for our Queen’s 60 years as our monarch from St Paul’s Cathedral in London, about 150 miles from here. The majestic music, drama, theatre, colour, ceremony, and spectacle, yes the whole thing, just got to me. It’s the same every Easter and Christmas when services are broadcast from our great Cathedrals here in England.

    And I’m the one who told a Bishop to raze a minster (cathedral) to the ground.

    We allow our children and grand children to be indoctrinated at a very young age and, speaking from experience, some of us spend a life time getting away from it all.

    Today, it was an effort of will to remind myself, where is the Holy Spirit in all this? But the sheer theatre of it all is gripping on the soul indeed.

    And there it is: it’s all soulish, not spiritual. But perhaps that’s another topic.

  29. look at the birds of the air Jun 6th 2012

    Its a stronghold Martin, when you hunger for God to strip you, He surely will:) Is the prblem the hunger for Gods perfect holy truth or looking back to what one once had and part of it not wanting to let go. What is the cruz of it all? I dont know. I was not brought up in the organization and traditions of men as the drama as you stated above.

    The presence of the Holy Spirit is missing and will not partake of the unholy things. The spiritual is most assuredly missing , but it is and can be found individually in those God has called and to those that hunger. No matter the names, the rejections of the many, they are loved by the Lord and through the Holy Spirit being led to the truth. The God I serve is Mighty and Mighty in deed, what He did for Paul on damascus , He can do for again and again, It is the Light of His truth that pierces the lies of darkness, be well my friend!

    Their is a lot to be said and discussed in what you posted above:)

  30. DeWayne Jun 6th 2012

    What I am looking for in the (true) church, is discernment (discerning of spirits), that I believe for purpose needed is a specific and individual gift of service… not only discerning the weather.

    More yet, that if this discernment is an individual gift, then the church has ears to listen to each and every (gift) of the church, certainly to discernment that must if of the HS be needed wisdom of the HS… we do have the mind of the Lord.

    From scripture, I have come to believe individual parts of the body do not have all that is needed, but each serve individual purpose for the unity and maturity of the whole or entire body.

  31. DeWayne Jun 6th 2012

    The hierarchy of the church, I believe the greatest and most important is a slave (praise the Lord). As for the body and perhaps a wart, Idon’t really know where it fits in, but if there must.

  32. look at the birds of the air Jun 6th 2012

    JeffM u brought up a good point, also the beginning of this is a bit disturbing:
    “Once upon a time, I looked this up and this is what it says about once upon a time:

    “Once upon a time” is a stock phrase that has been used in some form since at least 1380 (according to the Oxford English Dictionary) in storytelling in the English language, and seems to have become a widely accepted convention for opening oral narratives by around 1600. These stories often then end with “… and they all lived happily ever after”, or, originally, “happily until their deaths”. These are examples of the narrative form, and occur most frequently in the narratives produced for children aged between 6 and 8.[1]

    The phrase is particularly prevalent in fairy tales for younger children, where it is almost always the opening line of a tale. It was commonly used in the original translations of the stories of Charles Perrault as a translation for the French il était une fois, and of Hans Christian Andersen as a translation for the Danish “der var engang”, and the Brothers Grimm as a translation for the German es war einmal (literally “it was once”).

    The phrase is also frequently used in oral storytelling, such as retellings of myths, fables, and folklore.

  33. JeffM Jun 6th 2012

    Here is an example of what you will find at the website this came from,

    YHWH’s Salt Covenant (Hebrew, b’rith melah), is the most extraordinary of all HIS Covenants. It is symbolic of endurance, preservation, and freedom from corruption. It is a perfect picture of our CREATOR, and it is sprinkled liberally on HIS Ancient Path to preserve it and keep it pure.

    This is just so wrong. FYI , Jesus is not going to fix “protestant church” just like He never fixed the catholic church. I know some of you are waiting for it to be what you know it should be but it will never happen. It is not Christ’s church it is the world and we called to leave it all behind and follow Jesus. The people who will do whatever He commands are His.

  34. God expects us to put all scripture together into one harmonious story. If you are devouring the word of God, when you have almost completed the meal……you will have the information you need to figure things out. Christ, Himself, said He speaks in parables, and in such ways to keep the truth hidden from the ways of the world, from those who are busy in the world. The more we are in the world and practice the ways of the world, the more truths will be hidden from us, which are right there for the finding. But we have to be eager for the truth, want it above all other things of the world.

    These truths are not salvational, they are a greater picture of Our Lord. Salvation is simple…it is recognizing our nature without Christ (LOST), asking Christ to be Our Lord (FOUND), setting our egos aside so that He can begin the process of changing our nature via the HOLY SPIRIT that is our gift from Our Lord, and accepting that He paid our price on the cross with His earthly death, so that we might have Eternal Life within Him (CHANGED). And, it was meant to be simple. But, mankind, in the world, tries to make that part which should be simple, complex, adding all man’s doctrine to the simple truth of salvation. Causing division within the Body. Thank God, that He has the mercy and grace to overcome mankind’s quibbles.

    JOHN 14:12-21=”Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. he that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”

    JOHN 14: 23-31=……”If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

    Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.”

    We, the Church Body of Jesus Christ must always do our best to be ready to share what the Holy Spirit teaches and reveals, especially concerning the Words in the Bible that God put there, for the same reason that Jesus, above, said: “And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.” God has put it all in the Bible….what we need to witness to our neighbors and to the lost, of things that are to happen….so when they see them happen they will know that our God is GOD….and the Truth! And than they will want Jesus Christ….Who is the Only Way back to all that is promised.

  35. jorgedelaselva Jun 6th 2012

    The story of the bucket brigade is similar to the parable of the 10 virgins. In the past possession of a bucket was neccesary, but it has become unneccesary because of a new thing, the fire department. Jesus is warning us about the end times in Matthew 25 when He speaks of the 10 virgins. They are a group of people looking for Christ to return, you might call them a church. Five of them have enough oil to last through every delay, that is similar to the Spirit indwelling one’s heart and supplying a well of living water. The five fools followed after profit seeking oil vendors to keep full. This method of receiving true oil was condoned in the Old Testament because the Jews were afraid to have a “face to face” relationship with God. Seventy men were appointed to supply Israel with the annointing. (Num. 11, Ex. 19, 20 , Dt. 5) It is vital to note that if one is looking for others to ‘feed them’,’give them a word’,’fix their problems’ they are probably doing so because that is easier than spending serious quiet time with Him. And the church has plenty of well meaning ego driven people that will be happy to give you answers. Unfortunately those foolish virgins were denied enterance into the feast. The Greek in this section is identical to the Greek that Jesus used in Luke 13:25 and those that are barred entrance go to a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

  36. Kevin Jun 6th 2012

    Probably a better analogy would be that we as vessels are represented by the buckets.

    So where in western Christianity does the true water flow ?

    Does this mean we are all suffering from ego religion ?

    Or does this mean we are all some what short of the true ministry of Lord Jesus Christ ?

    So at what point do we look at ourselves to see what hinders the flow of the living waters of Lord Jesus Christ through our own lives ?

    Religious hierarchy has existed all through out history, however it is not the hierarchy that prevents the flow of living waters , it is the hearts of man.

  37. NZKiwi Jun 6th 2012

    Would actually be good to hear some more testimonies of the realities of many of these topics as opposed to much theological points of view. :)

  38. Andrew Jun 7th 2012

    Sorry that the website went down for a whole day, my friends.

    Fixed now…


  39. Ibelieve Jun 7th 2012

    I heard recently, a week ago, where a man in our area was death most of his life. He was looking to God to heal him. He woke up the other morning and could hear perfectly.

    Have not got all the details as he lives about an hour away.

    Just thought I would share a testimony here.

    Lord bless you and Godspeed.

  40. james Jun 7th 2012

    Kevin wrote:

    “So at what point do we look at ourselves to see what hinders the flow of the living waters of Lord Jesus Christ through our own lives ?

    Religious hierarchy has existed all through out history, however it is not the hierarchy that prevents the flow of living waters , it is the hearts of man.”
    Agree so much with you kevin , even if He leads in hell there we will find Him. The issue is always union as He lives in our hearts, for there He build His kingdom .If He lives not in our heart we can never find him, though we live among angels and saints.God bless you.

  41. Good parable but coming from a bad source I think.

    “Ego religion” is a term someone who has a New Age perspective would use, who now has a Buddhist view of spirituality, and thinks they can become ego less. I see his comments as probably shrouding a judgemental attitude toward Christianity itself, with its set and recorded doctrines that say this is right and that is wrong rather than the hazy occult “everyone has their own spiritual path” view.

    The word “Religion” is also taking on different connotations amongst Christians these days. In the 1970s it started to be used to describe those who remained in churches that wouldn’t accept the gifts of the Spirit etc.

    Today Toronto and Joyner types are also using the term “religious” now to point at us because we won’t accept their unbiblical manifestations which are starting to move in line with the New Age doctrines deceptive occult form of spirituality.

  42. On religious structures I think they should be kept to a minimum and as informal as possible. In N/T it wasnt even apparent that Peter was more important than Paul and the latter felt free to criticise theformer in a public meeting.

  43. WHAT in this parable is the fire brigade which now replaces the need for any form of organised religion?? New Age hunmanism run by secular govts???????

  44. Ibelieve,I thank you for sharing that testimony about the deaf man receiving healing for his ears.It was a timely testimony for me.Without going into all the details a year ago I lost 80% of my hearing.
    This experience has been a real trial of my faith.I am believing for a complete healing for my ears from my Father.I know many scriptures about healing and I know healing is the children’s bread and even those that aren’t Christians can receive.Pray for me that God may add to my faith.
    God Bless

  45. look at the birds of the air Jun 7th 2012

    A friend we have met and fellowship with sent this to me recently, he had this last week. I could relate to the weariness of this below at times and I think some of you might also. For the River of Life is always flowing.

    This is what he shared with me:
    I had a dream that I was “running the race set before me” along the river which leads unto life.

    At the beginning there were multiple lanes for individuals to run in as there seemed to be many

    running along side, behind and ahead of me; soon the lanes were few in number and the number

    of individuals was becoming less and less. Those about me were talking and becoming a distraction

    unto me so I increased my pace to break away from them, in doing so I began to pass others

    or maybe they were slowing down (becoming weary?) and yet again the path narrowed as I pressed onward.

    I found myself seeming alone on the path and crawling along on my hand and knees yet knowing that the Lord Was lifting me up and proving me with the strength I needed as I gazed to my left I could see the river flowing in the opposite direction I was headed; (My journey is to reach the Head Waters of the River of Life which flows from the Throne of God!). Upstream!

    Suddenly I was at the base of a mountain with a tunnel entrance as I look up a side door opened from within the tunnel entrance and a man in a white suit offer to help me up from the ground pointed to a set of stairs behind the door he had just opened. I knew this was NOT the WAY shaking my head from side to side saying no thanks, the man disappeared and a young boy appeared near the bottom of the steps headed down toward the door, I gather the strength to close the door and proceeded to enter the tunnel which opens up into a large open area much like terminal at an airport. The people inside this terminal all appeared to be much like me or worse in that they had been trough much and were in need of medical attention/healing before they could sojourn. I said to myself that this is not the final destination, it is but a first aid station along the way; as I began to make my way through the mass of people to press on to finish my race at the foot of the Throne!

    As I read this above from my friend, I realized the man dressed in white was trying to offer him a short cut. Their are no short cuts, the road is narrow and its not easy this race set before us but it is worth it all, to deny oneself, pick up our crosses and run, run the race that Jesus sets before us, not someone pointing us to go here or to go there.

    “As for me, I will call upon God; and the Lord shall save me. Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice. He hath delivered my soul in peace from the battle that was against me: for there were many with me” (Psalm 55:16-18).
    “I will love thee, O Lord, my strength. The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. . . . In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears” (18:1-2, 6).
    “O Lord my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit” (30:2-3).

    “For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper” (72:12). Jesus has sent the Holy Spirit to be your helper and He will not turn a deaf ear to your cry for help!

  46. jorgedelaselva Jun 7th 2012

    CONFESS YOUR SINS TO ONE ANOTHER!!! (James 5:16) Not neccesarily to everyone, but each of us needs a small group where we can do this amongst confidants. I wonder about the Apostle Paul, in his ministry he proceeded forward from becoming ‘the least of all the apostles’ to ‘the least of all the saints’ to the chief of sinners. I think he must of gone through a few sessions of confessing his sins to one another. That is one reason that I feel more heart felt sincerity is going on at AA meetings than the typical church service. NZKiwi, you asked for a witness and not just theology. I was a Christian Pharisee at a large church in a metro area of 800,000 for 20+ years. About 8 years ago I was aware that 2 of my sons were not following my Christian path. ( looking back now I don’t blame them, in fact I respect them) I admitted that I had failed in part of my raising of these 2 (sounds like the first step of AA) I told God that I did not want to repeat these mistakes with the next 2 sons that were following. I simply committed to turning off the radio in my semitruck as I drove between cities (7 hours per week). This

  47. jorgedelaselva Jun 7th 2012

    This is where I began having ‘face to face time with Jesus. The most important thing I learned was to admit my sins to those I had offended. I learned that following God face to face, balancing the standard of the Word with the impressions in my heart was a true fountain for me. THIS FOUNTAIN SATISFIES, IN FACT IT CONTINUES TO SATISFY AS WE WALK THROUGH THE GRIEF OF LOSING ONE OF OUR FIVE SONS. I was drinking from the water of looking to my leaders, that was a lazy thing I was doing, trying to depend on their relationship with God to feed me.

  48. look at the birds of the air Jun 7th 2012

    Les, we will be praying for you! Jorgedlaselva, that was profound what you shared. I came back before heading out
    that my friends distractions were listening to audios and videos all the day long of end-time stuff, etc. on the net and that of euro and not sure what all, before he had the dream he had been overwhelming with his emails of this kind of stuff. I spoke to him that we do not listen nor understand most all of it, nor is it a desire that God has placed in us. It was just to much for me, over my head things, which those voices can drown out the true voice of the ONE that seeks to whole heartedly speak to us:)
    He is one that came out of organized religion 5 or more years ago and the Lord has done an awesome job in showing him the truth and the false. He is one that truly desires and hungers for Gods truth. God is faithful to answer when we seek Him with all of our hearts.

  49. Martin Jun 7th 2012

    What is also disconcerting about this parable is that whilst it’s about having nothing in our buckets to put out a fire, evidence would tell us there isn’t a right lot in them to start a fire.

  50. Michelle Jun 8th 2012

    [quote from above] Here is an example of what you will find at the website this came from,

    YHWH’s Salt Covenant (Hebrew, b’rith melah), is the most extraordinary of all HIS Covenants. It is symbolic of endurance, preservation, and freedom from corruption. It is a perfect picture of our CREATOR, and it is sprinkled liberally on HIS Ancient Path to preserve it and keep it pure.

    This is just so wrong. FYI , Jesus is not going to fix “protestant church” just like He never fixed the catholic church. I know some of you are waiting for it to be what you know it should be but it will never happen. It is not Christ’s church it is the world and we called to leave it all behind and follow Jesus. The people who will do whatever He commands are His.[end quote from above]

    It makes a person wonder about the use of the ancient Hebrew letters plugged into modern day society that has no history being raised Jewish. It’s also curious that some English speaking Christians think it’s all holy and above everyone else to use the name Yahweh as well. So much spiritual mumbo jumbo has come out of some who are taking this way to far.

    Think I’ll stick with the Lord God, and describe Him has the Great I AM, and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That way there is a clarity of who I’m talking about. For me, everything else just seems to be putting on the dog.

  51. look at the birds of the air Jun 8th 2012

    I agree Martin, also to me its just a fable, their is no hope in the brigade and bucket, Jesus ***offers hope to all who will call upon Him.

    Michelle said,Think I’ll stick with the Lord God, and describe Him has the Great I AM, and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That way there is a clarity of who I’m talking about. For me, everything else just seems to be putting on the dog. end quote!

    I can whole heartedley say a BIG HUGE AMEN to that!!!

  52. Averyl Jun 8th 2012

    Andrew – I find this parable confusing, why did you choose it? what are you trying to say to us? Jesus spoke in parables so that only the spiritually minded would understand, is this your thinking?
    Putting out fires? The only fire we would want to quench is strange fire. Otherwise, fire can represent the Holy Spirit, which we don’t want to put out!
    Leaders? followers? those obeying orders?
    Anti authority, anti Body? Egotistical?

    Jesus said, – “If you believe, follow Me”, and they did.
    We are trying to do the same thing. Not smugly but with joy because of the priviledge.

  53. Martin Jun 8th 2012

    Birds of the air, my post above was somewhat tongue in cheek, so to speak. A little off the wall, but without criticism or malice. Just an observation. Yet I believe a truth to be there, none the less, for this time anyway.

    The self evident truth, I believe, is so much more profound than I expressed.

    Our perfect and everlasting God, the God of Israel, works with us in times and seasons. Jesus speaks of times and seasons as well. His entire life passed from one season to another, in a prophesied sequence. We live and move and have our being in seasons, in times.

    Right now is not the season of revival for the Western Church; but it is coming; now is the time of judgement, of straightening, cleansing. A time of purging and purification. Here in the UK it has been very evident for some years, and, from the press, I see Europe and North America, as well as New Zealand, are also coming under the judgement of God.

    A well respected brother from this forum sent me a prophecy two days ago, and a reference to another. Thank you. I will reply shortly.

    These prophecies, while very familiar to me, had their impact on receipt. Nothing for me is quite the same. They speak not so much of revival as we know it from history, but of something altogether different, much more grand, global, absolutely effective according to our Lord’s plan for us. A final act of God, in this sense. An act where the soulish and the spiritual will be clearly separated. Where the Godless and demonic will be separated from us. Where much that is known, and believed, will be torn down, and an eternal truth set to replace it.

    But the season is not yet. There is yet much travail in prayer, much sweating on the front line of intercession for the few. Receiving understanding and praying INTO the will of God for us, for our times. Understanding these unique and difficult times, but at a spiritual level, as seen from the throne of Grace.

    I believe too few of us comprehend the times and seasons. It is something I’m only just coming into.

    Now, I’m not one given to much credence in prophesies; neither have I often uttered a prophetic word. But now my attention is alerted. I do believe, come the time after such prayer, such intercession and anguish of soul before a Holy God, then, the bucket and the brigade behind it will be just bits of history. We will be as adults publicly recalling a pubescent faux pas with embarrassment and shame, yet knowing that time has passed for us.

    I’ve been privileged to read extensively of George Fox, John Wesley and William Booth. By the grace of God I’ve been granted a very tenuous link with Smith Wigglesworth; his war time driver had privileged insights into the man, and that driver was an old man when known to me and also very dear to me. We were like grand father and grand son. Of all these almost supremely Godly men of their times, something strikes me as common to them. The chief part of their ministry was towards the poor, the needy, the hungry, the dispossessed; those who were poor of spirit, addicted, sick or dying. Those without hope in this life, and no knowledge of their eternity.

    Of the average middle classes of these times, few had any room for Christ Jesus, or the words of these great men of God. Theirs was a state of rebellion against God, but in comfort.

    I praise God here and now; the judgement which is happening for so many, will bring that many down to a point of greatest need of Jesus. Earthly wealth is disappearing, status is gone, pride is evaporating; homelessness and hunger loom. They are, or will be, without hope in this world. Then they may be reached by the Holy Spirit.

    That time is close, but not yet. Much must be fulfilled before that occurs.

  54. Dear Birds of the Air,

    Your friend had a very interesting and telling dream. In the beginning of all marathons the conditioned runners are clothed in the lightest of garments, and would seemingly have prepared their bodies with the proper nutrients and hydration to start the long race. However, along the way of perseverance, there are provisions set aside to enable the runners to sustain themselves so that they may all arrive at the final destination. The competing runners all start as a throng of people, but as the race progresses, the running lines or lanes would naturally thin out with each person choosing the path of least resistance. The front running leaders of individual packs would establish their own lanes, with each of the followers drafting behind the person in front. The race is run so that all might finish, but if the runners pass on the nutrients and the hydration way stations, then undoubtedly they will weary quickly in body and mind, falling by the way side in confusion from their wasted effort.

    So likewise is the Church of the Living God. Initially, in hearing the Gospel of God’s Peace in Christ Jesus and then being immersed into the pure cleansing Water of the Word of God, we seemingly are prepared to run the race to LIFE or in many cases we think we have already arrived. God has set the race before us and we know the True Way is founded in the path of Jesus Christ and the finish line is Life within Him. We are all called, not only to begin the race, but to run patiently in the faith of God, and through that faith finish the whole course set before us of God. For God Himself is the Author and Finisher of our faith, and as Such, He has set forth His Own Way station of Life sustaining Provisions to be given to us through His Spirit of Holiness. (See Hebrew 12:1-3.) So as the philosophical debaters say, this begs the question: Are we all following fully, the leading instructions of the Spirit of God, for they flow as pure Water from the Throne Room of His Grace.

    Like much of the church, your friend was running on his own strength and not in the strength that the Spirit of God would provide along the Way of Life. The River of Life was right there beside him and the rest of the runners, but none of them ventured over even once to refresh themselves within the River that gives Life and continuously leads them to the end of the journey.

    The man, in his dream, comes to a mountain with a dark tunnel, but never again makes mention of the River of Life. What became of the River? The River of the Water Life is the Holy Spirit that proceeds from throne of the Father and the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world. This is what the Author and Finisher says to those who run on their own strength and pass on His Way Table of provisions. You can do nothing without Me: My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed. He that eats of My flesh, and drinks My blood, dwells in Me, and I in him. Now then, have we shed every weight of self centered sin that bears down upon us, so we can run the race with confidence? Do we remain satisfied with our own unbelief and the doctrinal errors of those we blindly follow. But then the Lord Says: Take and drink all of you: For this is My Blood of the New Covenant that is shed for many for the remission of sin.

    I believe that the man dressed in white garments who opened the door at the entrance of the tunnel and offered to help the fallen and weakened man was of the Spirit of God, seeing that He disappeared with the man’s refusal of His help. Likewise the young lad, perhaps having child like faith, was also there to help show the man back to the Way of the refreshing River of Life, but the man on his own strength closed the door in the face of God’s spiritual assistance. Unfortunately, the dream runner in his own eyes knew that he was right and did not need the concerned help of another. The irony of it all, is the man winds back at a Terminal, housing people of like exhausted faith, which is probably indicative of church life that ignores the Spirit of God’s River of flowing Grace.

    Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink. He that believes on Me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    Robert Glenn

  55. look at the birds of the air Jun 8th 2012

    Thank you Martin. I can not say whether He is or whether He is not, I just trust Him and whatever He is doing , His ways are perfect and just.

    Hi Robert, I believe the Holy Spirit was revealing to Him of the race, the River of Life being amidst him. Their were distractions while in his running the race set before him.

    His need was to break away, off or from– get going on down the road.

    I also believe the man in white was ****appearing to to be holy and righteous, to lead him another way. The child than came, we are to be as child like in order to enter the kingdom of God.

    The sheep know the Lords voice and will not follow another. He was right in not following after another voice or even by appearance. I believe in the dream he discerned correctly (spiritually discerned)

    He had to go through, we*** must all go through, to endure, to be an overcomer, to endure, to press on and upward.
    To him who overcomes I will give of the tree of life and a new stone.

    And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.Rev.22:1

    Mark 10:15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

    Even on his hands and knees , he didnt quit , he was overcoming! Praise the Lord, for it is the Lord that looks upon the hearts of men and women, the heart is where its at, a heart thing with all of us concerning our Lord Jesus.

  56. look at the birds of the air Jun 8th 2012

    Averyl asked this to—->Andrew – I find this parable confusing, why did you choose it? what are you trying to say to us? Jesus spoke in parables so that only the spiritually minded would understand, is this your thinking?
    Putting out fires? The only fire we would want to quench is strange fire. Otherwise, fire can represent the Holy Spirit, which we don’t want to put out!
    Leaders? followers? those obeying orders?
    Anti authority, anti Body? Egotistical?

    Jesus said, – “If you believe, follow Me”, and they did.
    We are trying to do the same thing. Not smugly but with joy because of the priviledge.
    end quote:

    Averyl I hope this gets a response what you have asked.

    I also was thinking about the last posts/article- and some of the comments made concerning authority and leadership and such. Unless the Holy Spirit is guiding and leading, than it is of the flesh and not of the Holy Spirit. As far as Im concerned the TRUE servants of the Lord do not care about such places of leadership they should take on or be in or walk in, they are just thankful to be called His.

    Andrew you called probably many of us heretics, which points to heresy and I looked both these words up tonight . Your a man, human and so are we, yet many times you have talked down to differing people , not with but looked down upon, even those who have come out from among the profaned, religious establishments and the like. I would like to also show what I read concerning the word-heresay-heretic.
    Heresy is an opinion held in opposition to that of authority or orthodoxy. It is primarily used in a religious context, but by extension (and with increasing frequency), to secular subjects. The term assumes the existence of an orthodoxy.

    Not to be confused with hearsay.

    Heresy (from Greek αἵρεσις, which originally meant “choice”, also referred to that process whereby a young person would examine various philosophies to determine how to live one’s life) was redefined by the Catholic church as a belief that conflicted with established Catholic dogma. Eventually it took on the meaning of an accusation levied against members of another group which has beliefs that conflict with those of the accusers. It is usually used to discuss violations of religious or traditional laws or codes, although it is used by some political extremists to refer to their opponents. It carries the connotation of behaviours or beliefs likely to undermine accepted morality and cause tangible evils, damnation, or other punishment. In some religions, it also implies that the heretic is in alliance with the religion’s symbol of evil, such as Satan or chaos.[1] It is distinct from apostasy, which is the formal denunciation of one’s religion, principles or cause,[2] and blasphemy, which is irreverence toward religion.[3] The founder or leader of a heretical movement is called a heresiarch, while individuals who espouse heresy or commit heresy, are known as heretics. Heresiology is the study of heresy.

    The word heresy is usually used within a Christian, Jewish, or Islamic context, and implies something slightly different in each. In certain historical Christian and Jewish cultures, heresy was punishable by law.

    How can you call people that Ive even seen use scripture, concerning following Jesus. One I can think off right away is profound, TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW ME- JESUS SAID THAT!

    When the Jesus and me came forth from you, Wayne and if their was anyone else I cant recall at this moment, however the attack of the”Jesus and me” and the lone ranger comments, were just plain wrong.

    My gawsh David,Ezekiel, Elijah, Elisha, Paul, John the baptist, so many times alone talking with, praying with the Lord, Abraham going and doing what God commanded him to do. Noah obeying and not following another, but rather going against the mass of people. So many more.

    Wouldnt it better to walk with Jesus, guiding and leading, showing His people the way rather than with 1, 5 or 10
    pharisees, saduccees, apostate, and or organized religion. There are people , I know who are by themselves, and have a truly intimate walk with Jesus.
    He is preparing and has been, getting His people ready
    to be His bride and purposing HIS will through them by the HOLY GHOST!

    The disciples fellow-shipped, yet were taught of the Lord.

    You are head strong against people walking with the Lord and many of your articles contain leadership and authority figures leading, ruling as well as in some of your comments are adament concerning this.

    You than say you have given up pretty much on this generation, your sadly wrong, for Jesus Christ, until He comes has not given up. I mean it just didnt come across real well.

    Those that have been in leadership and played the roll, not called by the Lord even, are the hardest to fall, to repent, and to come out of that mindset, to humble themselves before Almighty God.

    Jesus desires a personal relationship with all of us, but I cant get it through others, I must have my own ***PERSONAL relationship on my own and I want to hear from Him, and Praise the Lord, I do hear from Him and I long to hear from Him, always. We can glean from others that bear fruit, have the Light of Jesus and shine forth.

    Unless people agree with you, they are called this or that, you have stated/placed many labels on those who have come out and you have names for this even as in the suttle little ego-tism thing . I felt like what you posted above was almost baited.

    To those who live outside of the USA, the Lord has not given up on people, you may have, but He has not. Their are lost people , yes LOST and His people will go to the byways and to the highways.

    Im sure people would like for you to share WHY you say what you do and why you make all these names up for people who dont agree with you. Isnt it possible that your the one in *error and need to humbly repent ???

    Also God places people to help along the way. The trouble is organized religion, it is a downfall to many and they live by the law instead of by the Spirit, for the letter of the law kills but the Spirit of the Lord brings life.
    For He writes on the hearts of his people.

  57. Andrew Jun 8th 2012

    In answer to your question, I was a completely “Out of church” person for years – and felt it was completely OK for there to exist Christianity with “no leaders”, no meetings, and no real “body” as such. I was not even part of a ‘house church’. And I met many who felt the same as me.

    In 1993 God challenged all of this attitude within me, and I went through a major transformation in my life. He showed me that you CANNOT have real New Testament Christianity at all with “no body”, no leaders and ‘no meetings’. You simply do not have the New Testament at all without those things.

    I am simply trying to get people to read their Bible again and THINK about what NT Christianity was truly like.

    Only God could help me see these things. I had to REPENT and deeply RENOUNCE a lot of attitudes. I encourage others to do the same, because those attitudes are not helping us.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  58. look at the birds of the air Jun 8th 2012

    Thank you for responding,
    you said, “I am simply trying to get people to read their Bible again and THINK about what NT Christianity was truly like.” end quote.

    So why this article on the bucket above, which says nothing of the word? As with Averyl, Andrew the post above was not uplifting.

  59. Andrew Jun 8th 2012

    It is not supposed to be “uplifting” in that sense.

    It is simply aimed at making people “think” about serious issues.

    And from the comments, I believe it has done exactly that.

    Bless you!


  60. Kevin Jun 8th 2012

    Andrew you say above ;

    ” In 1993 God challenged all of this attitude within me, and I went through a major transformation in my life. He showed me that you CANNOT have real New Testament Christianity at all with “no body”, no leaders and ‘no meetings’. You simply do not have the New Testament at all without those things.”

    I think underneath it all most would agree with what you have said.

    Where I believe much of the debate comes from is how to restore a visible living fellowship .

    Many have suffered at the hands of self appointed leaders who have tried to call the body back together with out the fire, grace and humility of Lord Jesus Christ.

    You could argue that Lord Jesus Christ will reignite His fire in one who is out in the dessert as it was with Him, for it is the fire of His Spirit that birthed the early church and that kept it growing .

    Many ” leaders ” have tried in vain to gather the body together, however if they don’t walk in fire of the spirit will they be successful ?

    What does history show us ?

    For is it not the Lord who builds His church ?

    And does not history show that He does this by the fire and power of His Spirit through servants He has called to the task ?

    So is not the answer to support all who seek the fire of our Lord for the restoration of the body and the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ ?

    In His love


  61. Averyl Jun 8th 2012

    We read our Bibles & we DO THINK!
    We earnestly desire to discern & fellowship in the Body.
    The Lord Himself is the Head of His Body. The Head directs the other members of the Body.

    So who is your authority & with what church do you fellowship, Andrew?

  62. Averyl Jun 8th 2012

    I’m sure none of us wish to be known as accusers of the brethren!
    Lord Jesus, have mercy on us & forgive us.

  63. Andrew Jun 8th 2012

    Yes – I fellowship regularly at a place that is elder-run and supports the ministry of the “whole body”.

    However, that is not the point I was making.

    Kevin is right when he says the “real thing” must come about God’s way and in God’s time.

    I notice, Averyl, that you seem rather bitter against me, and keen to rail against everything I say on this topic. Please forgive me if I have offended you in any way. When I came out of my “Out of church” mindset, it really was life-transforming to me. So that is why I am so strong on these things.

    Please don’t take it personally.

    Do you forgive me, Averyl?

    Bless you all,

    Andrew Strom.

  64. Keep looking up Jun 8th 2012

    In the 1970s and the 1980s greetings amongst christians were “Mananatha” and the “Lord bless you.” The 21st century christian church no longer greet once another this way.
    The established church system compete with one another to attract bums of seats to get attention and having visited several churches the church leaderships are using forms of entertainment to get people to come to their church services. Some of them chase signs and wonders to get recognition and singing choruses over and over again to conjure up the spirit.
    The sad thing of these visits is that very few people do not get “saved” who have no dealings with church or any realtionship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Claims that revival is taking place in the christian church is a fallacy because its composition consists of religious people who are pursing all sorts of spiritual phenomenon without showing an discernment, hence what is taken place today in most churches, and of course just ticking over and doing the same thing time and time again.
    The parable of the ten virgins is evident in the End Times and when folk ask me about what to do, I refer them to read the outcome of this parable.
    So many are not prepared to get oil for themselves, to trim the wicks of their lamps, or to seek God Almighty outside of their church systems.
    I am saying to those who call themselves christians that they should re-examine their relationships with the Lord Jesus Christ. They can only do this for themselves without any interference of their walk with the Lord Jesus and of making excuses.
    For I do believe now is the time to seek the Lord while people are able and those who are not listening to the voice of God Almighty, I can only say you have not taken heed so when He comes and they are not ready, they will be left behind.

  65. Ibelieve Jun 8th 2012

    ……………………………………………….For I do believe now is the time to seek the Lord while people are able and those who are not listening to the voice of God Almighty, I can only say you have not taken heed so when He comes and they are not ready, they will be left behind…………………………………………………

    “Amen to this whole comment”

    I can see both sides to this friendly discussion here.

    It is important to have fellowship with other believers, and this is where we learn to develop the gifts of the Spirit, fruits, etc.

    Whether we are “in church” or “out of church” the important thing is, are we developing a personal relationship with Jesus on a regular basis?

  66. Ibelieve Jun 8th 2012

    14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

    15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    “Praise God we have a better country prepared for us by God”

  67. Andrew Jun 9th 2012

    Sorry – the automatic “Comments lock” kicked in for awhile there. Comments are now enabled again on this thread.


  68. Averyl Jun 9th 2012

    I have not been “railing’ against you Andrew.
    Others may have, so why pick on me?
    All I did was ask you some questions!
    Added to your list of accusations is now “bitterness” & “railing”.
    I’m far from perfect but none of these apply to me.
    Yes, you have caused offence, resulting in sadness & hurt at being misrepresented & picked on, (and no, I’m not paranoid either!)
    I forgive you.
    Please forgive me too, as I have obviously offended you.

    I do think you have a problem but I have no idea what it is.

  69. Andrew Jun 9th 2012

    That is not a true “acceptance” or apology, Averyl.

    It still sounds “bitter”.

    I have nothing against you at all. Nor the other “Out of churchers”. I am simply speaking to those ones who think it is “OK” to go for years and years with “no meetings”, no leaders and basically “NO BODY” at all. I have personally come across HUNDREDS of these people. You may not be one of them. I have no idea.

    But your tone is one of great offense that I am seeking to challenge these attitudes.

    Please accept my apology fully, and please change your tone. I am not out to “get” you. This is not ‘personal’ in any way.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  70. Hi Andrew,

    I believe there are a number here in New Zealand who have a desire for God to move as He has promised that He will…

    That God would move as He has promised to…

    Before we can see the establishment of New Testament Churches – functioning bodies of believers – there has to be a breakthrough in the spiritual realm to release this reality into being…

    Has the Lord given you any encouragements in this respect in the fellowship which you attend which you would feel comfortable to share with us (with permission as appropriate of course)?

    I think that would be edifying for us…

    And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. (1 Corinthians 12:26 NASB)

    Love in the Lord,


    Ps. I have another question, do you believe that just attending a fellowship is better than not – irrespective of whether that fellowship is a vibrant New Testament Church or not – and that attending a fellowship in and of itself is a “springboard” to Revival, i.e. better than being “out in the wilderness” “all by yourself”?

    Pss. Do you believe that God can call people “out” for a season to prepare them to come back “in”?

    Psss. Do you believe in travailing or “tarrying” for Revival, i.e. waiting in prayer until the Holy Spirit comes?

    Love in the Lord,


  71. JeffM Jun 9th 2012

    I tried once before to explain what needs to happen for church to work the way God intended and nobody seemed to be interested .”Out of church” is missing some things that would be good, if you left church because The Lord said to and not because it was your idea. But “out of church” does not include the organized willfull refusal to follow Jesus wherever He leads that is the normal church meeting .

    Church as it is practised is a situation were The Lord is not being treated the way He deserves, so it is better to not go along with that sort of thing.

    Now here is what’s wrong, church is an attempt to do two things at the same meeting that can’t be done at the same time.You think you are doing both but the way you have to do things when you try to do both actualy ruins both efforts.

    The two things are , the meeting together of the believers as the bible tells us to do and the activity of taking The Word of God to those who do not live according to His Word.

    So what should be a meeting of “just” believers, where you do those things that are appropriate for those that obey Jesus, now includes people that have no intention of doing what Jesus wants.If you follow me you see that because you are trying to do what a meeting of believers would do and also reach people who do not love and obey The Lord , you always have a mixed crowd.

    Now if it was just those that will do what The Holy Spirit leads them to do and not the usual crowd ,Jesus could be the one who tells people what to do and what not to do. But because it is a combination of the meeting of believers with the activity of taking God’s Word to those that do not obey His Word, Jesus can not be the leader. So at church Man runs things instead of God because you always include people who will not do what Jesus wants.

    There are lots more examples of what is being done wrong because of this attempt to combine these two things.But the basic idea is to seperate these two things and do them at different times . Have a meeting of just believers and you can do whatever the Lord wants the group to do. At another time take God’s Word to those who are not living according to His Word .If you try to do both at the same meeting,you fail at both. The group needs to be in agreement about following Jesus where He wants you to go.At church now the agreement is that no one has to do what the Lord says while they are at the meeting.That is not how a meeting of believers works.

  72. look at the birds of the air Jun 9th 2012

    How many of those 100 have left the buildings and been called out by the Lord and or knew the Lord was calling them to COME OUT?

    How many have heard from the Lord not to enter in to these unholy places? How many wait upon the Lord to listen to HIS Voice? How many are still in the building wrought by man and manipulated by man? With NO leading or unction of the Holy Spirit?
    Years ago for us, the Holy Spirit spoke loud in clear while in California, while seeking Him on where to go? Loud and clear it was this, “THESE ARE NOT MY CHURCHES.” (that to me is pretty plain- clear-) For we are the church made without hands

    More than anything people NEED to allow the Holy Spirit to lead them where to go. What is fellowship, its sharing with like-minded people but that is becoming less and less, WHY?

    The sheep are scattered and thats a true fact that none can deny. Are we even prepared and ready for what the Lord has for us ? Are you prepared ? We are to wait , wait wait upon the Lord, as impatient as the flesh gets, the more willingly we surrender the more the Holy Spirit is allowed to flow through us and move us. How many scriptures talk of wait and of waiting, look them up, quite a few.

    Eph. 5
    15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. 18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

    Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

  73. look at the birds of the air Jun 9th 2012

    We of the circumcision made without hands (Col.2:11, Phil.3:3 ), who worship God in *Spirit and *Truth

    (John.4:23-24 ) have become a “new” creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor.5:17, Gal.6:15 ), reconciled in one body, His living body (Col.1:24) the *church of *God
    (1 Cor.10:32 ).

    There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ; we are all one (Gal.3:28 ); we have BECOME the church of God.

    Col.2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands (Phil.3:3), in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

    Phil.3:3 For we are the circumcision (Col.2:11 ), which worship God in the spirit (John.4:23-24 ), and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

    John.4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth (Phil.3:3 ): for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

    John.4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship HIM in Spirit and in Truth.

  74. Andrew Jun 9th 2012

    My problem is with the ones who have made a virtual “doctrine” out of the whole “no leaders, no meetings, no BODY” type of mindset. I see this a lot.

    But yes – God does call people “out” for a period. And then they begin the search for the “real”. I have no problem with that.

    None of us yet see this at all in its fullness – not in the “House church” movement – not anywhere. It is not happening.

    But we cannot settle for the “wilderness” as the norm, either. In fact, it is crucial that we do not become permanent “wilderness types”. This is not the answer. But I feel a lot of people are ‘living’ there.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  75. look at the birds of the air Jun 9th 2012

    Andrew, a doctrine? I dont know of that doctrine, however thier is so much out of balance , off balance that when someone says do this do that, go here, go there, Im not going to. It must be Holy Ghost led, if He is not leading , than I aint going:) Jesus Christ is to be the head. Do you believe man – leader is to rule over others?

  76. look at the birds of the air Jun 9th 2012

    Their is to much emphasis on leader ship, their must be a Holy Ghost balance and we have not come to this yet as far as coming into what the Lord desires. Man gets it wrong without the Spirit of the Lords leading. To many FALSE leaders take people of the narrow and onto the wide leading to the pits of hell.

  77. look at the birds of the air Jun 9th 2012

    typo- take people off* the narrow path

  78. look at the birds of the air Jun 9th 2012

    Their is nothing wrong with the Lord taking people for seasons out into the wilderness, matter fact it should be the Lords say in how long someone remains their, not mans. I disagree with what you said above, concerning the wilderness, thats where the Lord can do a great work in His people one on one and that is where a close intimate relationship is very much established.

  79. Teshuva Jun 9th 2012

    Some are in the wilderness, but the promised land is on the other side of it. The exodus from Egypt is the leaving the church as most, not all have become the harlot of revelation.
    There is strange fire and strange apparel with her.
    What was revealed to me, in the seven heads are the seven mountains.
    These are the mountains that are to be removed and cast into the sea, with faith as a grain of mustard seed.
    The seven mountains are the seven sins, consisting of greed, laziness, lust, pride, anger, gluttony, and envy.

  80. I think from what you’ve just shared above Andrew, that you and I are on the same page…

    I agree with what “look at the birds of the air” shared that only the Lord knows how long each of us is to remain in the wilderness before we are ready for the real thing but I believe – like He did with Joshua and Caleb – He preserves our faith so that we are still young and full of vigour when the time comes for us to come in to the “promised land” which in this reference I’m referring to the re-establishment of the New Testament Church…

    Without a vision the people perish…

    The Lord needs to give us each a vision for our wilderness time so we see what it is that He is trying to complete and hear His Voice telling us when it is completed…

    Love in the Lord,


  81. look at the birds of the air Jun 9th 2012

    Michelle, remember the pharisees said this concerning Jesus,
    ” But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” Matt 12:24

    It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house

    ***how much more shall they call them of ***his household?***

  82. Kevin Jun 9th 2012

    My take on the issue of what to do in terms of fellowship etc is that under the current power vacuum in western christianity there is much division in the body with many parts of the body not even recognizing one another, so the most important thing to do is to follow the Lord Jesus Christ down the path He leads us all on in a personal way, on the way to maturity in Him.

    And yes , we will all be drawn back into a functioning body at some stage for as it is written so it shall be.

    In His love


  83. Andrew Jun 9th 2012

    That sounds all well and good, Kevin.

    But the thing that concerns me is that many are becoming totally “comfortable” out there in the Wilderness – just them and God.

    A whole generation will never escape the desert if this carries on. I know that many have been “out there” for decades.

    How can something so utterly unbiblical ever be accepted as “OK”?


  84. Kevin Jun 9th 2012


    I think if a few modern day apostle Paul ‘s starting operating in the full ministry of Lord Jesus Christ, that this generation you refer to would come together in unity as a body of believers.

    The apostolic ministry was what was used to spread the fire and grow the church of the NT , and I don’t see that anything has changed.

    The problem today is that many false self appointed apostles have made people reject anything to do with a body, however those same people would recognize the true servants of our Lord Jesus Christ as they have through out history.

    May the Lord Jesus Christ raise up true servants in the time we live in for His glory.



  85. Kevin Jun 9th 2012

    Andrew for example you and I could go out well intentioned , calling people together , however they are unlikely to listen unless they see the evidence through us that Christ has called and empowered us for this work.

    So we have a major problem where on one hand many true servants are on the road to maturity , yet haven’t arrived, so when people are seeking an encounter with God they have an experience with man.

    Revival is really only the restoration of the full ministry of Lord Jesus Christ, which in turn will bring the body back together.

  86. Andrew Jun 9th 2012

    I wish I agreed with you there, Kevin.

    Sadly, the most anointed men of their time were also often the most rejected.

    Anyway, I fully realize I have been wasting my time trying to discuss these things, and I will now be silent.

    Blessings to all.


  87. I believe what Kevin is saying Andrew is that the ones who are waiting for the Lord (the Lord’s timing) to “come back in” to something new, i.e. the New Testament Church, but know they haven’t got the Anointing to do it themselves but are keen for this to happen, these ones, when they see the true leadership mature and get to a point where they are ready to lead, these ones will follow that true leadership…

    Rebellion is a completely different “kettle of fish” and what I think you must have observed is a whole lot of rebellious “wilderness dwellers” who really have “come out” so they can “do their own thing” and not because God told them to come out, cos when God tells us to come out there’s always a reason and He gives us a purpose in the wilderness, like for me He told me it was to teach me what true faith really was…

    I also see for me it was to teach me what death to self really was – which is ongoing – cos the picture He used through a brother showed clearly a following the Lord unto death and not wavering in my faith even when it looked like He’d deserted me…

    I honestly believe that these ones, who have been called out by the Lord, will recognise true authority when they see it…

    I know this for myself…

    I just have a knowledge in my spirit that I will know…

    And I will know who to align myself with and who not to align myself with…

    I believe the Lord will give this to us all – who are truly seeking Him and waiting for Him…

    You are not wasting your time Andrew, look up brother for your redemption draweth nigh… :-)

    To me it appears that Kevin is seeing things very closely to the way I see them (maybe he sees the timing different to what I see it, I don’t know, I haven’t discussed it with him) and having that hope that we will see the fulfilment of the Lord’s word in our day (tell me if I’m wrong Kevin) that His Church will be One and that we will all reach to the Unity of the Body as the scripture indicates…

    until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (Ephesians 4:13 NASB)

    It definitely needs leaders but to me leaders are those who lead by example…

    I know that anyone who really wants to know something will know it – seek and you shall find – if someone really wants to be led then they are open to learn from anyone who they genuinely believe will be able to teach them what they genuinely believe they need to know…

    Thus the principle of “imitate me as I imitate Christ” – we all do it, we are forever looking not just to scripture and to our Lord Jesus Christ and to His Apostles but also to history to see those who have followed our Lord Jesus Christ with a pure heart and to be encouraged by their faith and even better when we find “real, living people” who are doing the same – this encourages our faith…

    We have enough of these “real, living people” around, if we seek hard enough (as He leads us) the Lord will enable us to find them and then together we will be a force to be reckoned with as we unite all over the world to wait and tarry and travail for Revival until He comes and rains down righteousness upon us…

    If we see any around us who fit this bill I feel it behoves us to “tap into” fellowship with them – no matter where they are in the world – as this will encourage our faith…

    Love in the Lord,


  88. Ibelieve Jun 9th 2012

    Quote “I do think you have a problem but I have no idea what it is.” Unquote

    The man with no problems please cast the first stone. :)

    The only problem free world will be in “Heaven”.

    Not trying to take any sides here as we are all Christians with different viewpoints.

    My personal situation is that we attended church for over twenty years. During this time our church saw people continually saved, healed, gifts, etc.

    My wife and I never would even consider missing a meeting. Our fellowship was put above family, work, etc. I lost a job once because I refused to go to their company meetings on Wednesday night because I did not want to miss our meetings at church. They fired me over it.

    After our Pastor went to be with the Lord, (long story, I won’t bore you with), we found ourselves out of church. In my case we were greatly influenced by this Pastor who was a stickler for the Word of God.

    He preached against the dead system, and the charismatics who had strange doctrines and practices.

    This has influenced my thinking on finding a church. I have tried to go to churches and just remain neutral and overlook somethings. But I find there is so much going on how can one set and be silent.

    I could write a book at this point to tell you the strange things going on in American churches. Today’s latest craze is Zumba classes.

    Only thing I can say is; Please Pray God will give me Wisdom and lead me by His Spirit.

    I am not trying to refute anyone or saying they are wrong in their conclusion, only sharing what I have had to deal with here.

    Lord Bless Everyone on this board.

  89. Kevin Jun 9th 2012

    Andrew Strom – I agree that there is a problem as you have pointed out.

    What I am saying is that a large part of the problem is also the power vacuum western christianity finds itself in.

    The true NT church did not operate in a power vacuum, nor did it come about by the assembly of people, it was birthed and sustained by the fire of the Holy Spirit, so all I am saying is that what you say is true for some, however there will be many who are genuinely out in the wilderness because of the state of western christianity .

    Regarding your comments about anointed men being rejected, this is true, however history would show that they rejoiced in their rejection and persecution, while still gathering the harvest that Lord Jesus Christ had given them to gather.
    In other words they were glad to suffer as Christ had before them.



  90. Kevin Jun 9th 2012

    Andrew J Horton,

    What I see is that the Lord has drawn many out of a place where they were not growing, and led them in ways that will cause them to mature.

    The problem is that there are also many people who are displaced and lost because of the attacks of the enemy against the body .

    The ministry that Christ uses to discern and destroy the works of the enemy and to bring Gods authority and order back into the body is the apostolic, which was birthed initially by Lord Jesus Christ in His earthly ministry.

    Until we have the restoration of true servants of Christ walking in the apostolic ministry, that is witnessed and received by the body, the enemy of Christ is going to continue to cause division and strife in the body taking full advantage of the power vacuum that exists.

    Jesus was led into the dessert were He overcame the world , the flesh and the enemy before He came out with His true ministry, and this is the path He will lead all through whom He calls to the same ministry.

    The limitation has never been on the side of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is we who limit Him through us.

    Regarding the timing , I believe many fall into deception in the desert chasing the works of the enemy rather than staying focused on Lord Jesus Christ, or they start relying on their own strength rather than looking unto Him.

    It is His will that we walk as overcomer’s in this world as He did.

    He simply looks for those who are willing to truly deny themselves and take up their cross and follow after Him.

    In His Love


  91. Kevin Jun 9th 2012

    Andrew Strom, to clarify I’m not disagreeing with the points you have raised and I’m not saying we should not fellowship with one another.

    We all need to fellowship in a way that causes us to grow and mature and if the Lord does lead us into the dessert for a time to finish His work in us, I agree, we are not to become comfortable as you have put it, rather we are to finish the task He has set before us and come out as effective servants as He did before us.



  92. Kevin Jun 9th 2012

    Getting back to the bucket parable it is essentially portraying hierarchy without power that people have left, which is what many people have done.

  93. kelling Jun 9th 2012

    The children of Israel had to die in the wilderness they brought the satre, mixed seed, with them along with their ways as they were the mixed multitudes from Mistriam. today’s church has became the mixed multitudes, a little Benny Hinn, throw in some Mike Murdock add a pinch Todd Bently and presto another new cutting age church. Me I’ll stick with the word, I;m hooked on the truth.

  94. look at the birds of the air Jun 9th 2012

    I was reading people comments and this is what keeps coming to mind…
    The Israelite’s wanted a man, talking of Saul here.
    Jesus says in his word , “Come let us reason
    You see God wanted to be over them, they did not.
    God is Big and Awesome and Mighty. They werent close to Him, and I wonder did they even want to be close to Him, to get to know their GOD?
    They wanted a man, they knew they could reason with man. Saul being leader, led to pride and envy and every ugly thing that sets itself up above God and all that He is. Saul’s jealousy even pushing him to want to kill David. We see another picture with Moses and him face to face with God, all the while the Israelites are
    playing around , getting impatient, NOT waiting while Moses is having a most awesome and terrible encounter with God Almighty!

    If the Israelites than only knew that to come and reason with God, to know of Him and his holy character, they would see that he would stop the rain when asking, to not let the sun go down until the fighting was over. So many awesome things done because they sought God and asked and that was a personal relationship does.

    David treasure in his heart was the Lord, He treasured his relationship with His creator and his words can move people to heartfelt tears that know, desire and hunger for the same and are in a truly intimate walk with our Heavenly Father, Lord Jesus and the Precious Holy Ghost.

    When I was sent into a building for only several months, the Holy Ghost wept but for a time the holy Spirit was leading and the people listening, obeying and following. they got their eyes off the Lord and feared what people would say. the holy Spirit wept- weeping and I was called to come out.

    So many held in captivity and bound by religious chains and many do not even know that they are. When God breaks the chains, Freedom in Christ enters in to the one who was held prisoner by the religious structures of man. the walls are down and the eyes are opened, the deaf ears opened and they hear and they see what they could not see before, for that the brick and mortar are crumbled, broken and fallen. For Gods foundation is sure and strong,firm, solid on the Rock, and that is where His people stand.

    Justice was necessary because the Lord was not just punshing the Isrealites during the babylonian captivity.
    Part of the message of the bibke is He is always just and He is always merciful, and this doesnt make sense to man, they werent listening to the Lord.

    He is still saying the same thing today to those whom are captive in babylon. For 70- years He sent His prophets , Isiaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc… In the history of 70 year period which isnt very long, He didnt giving up on them…thats why HIS PEOPLE WERE SENT TO THEM~ come let us reason, He is appealing to them, their is way folks, but its not by religious works.

  95. look at the birds of the air Jun 9th 2012

    Isaiah 1
    1The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

    2Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

    3The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

    4Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

    5Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

    6From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

    7Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

    8And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

    9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

    10Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

    11To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

    12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

    13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

    14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

    15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

    16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

    17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

    18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

    20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

    21How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

    22Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:

    23Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

    24Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

    25And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

    26And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellers as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

    27Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

    28And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

    29For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.

    30For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.

    31And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.

  96. look at the birds of the air Jun 9th 2012

    Forgive me God didnt want to be over them, He wanted and longed for a relationship with them as he does with all of us.

  97. How I do love the brethren and sisteren here :) ………. Andrew thank you for opening up your “living room” for the people of God to assemble here, for however long it is the will of the Lord, i take nothing for granted but just am grateful for each day that He gives, and pray He will bless you for it….you can see how even here there are those who do not eschew fellowship when the opportunity is given.

    ….the thing is it is the shepherds who have scattered the sheep….we were led out because of necessity and for most of us it was a heartbreaking and perplexing time……and to keep in mind the wilderness is far from comfortable. The waiting in this as well as other areas of my life are killing me as I am sure it is the same for others as well.

    I don’t know what else we can do Andrew, it is either be led by the Spirit of God, or be led by our own ideas, and for if He doesn’t lead me to a church or fellowship then I want to be obedient…..not my will but His, whatever the cost. It could very well be that some you have run into are making this into a doctrine though, this is always the propensity of flesh to try and set the things of the Spirit into cement….isn’t this the very reason we are not to keep looking back like Lot’s wife but to keep moving forward and growing else we become a rigid pillar of salt. Maybe that is what you have come across in some cases, and/or maybe there is a bit of misunderstanding of what people have been trying to communicate, which can always arise, especially in this format.

  98. The contentious Bucket Brigade is passing buckets to each other with no water in them.

    What was the initial need for the bucket brigade in the first place? It was to put out a fire that might have destroyed the whole town. All of the towns people worked together, each passing the water filled buckets to the next person in line. In all probability, every working person passing the buckets, would later recall that they all together got wet from the splashing water that filled buckets. The water that filled the buckets in the brigade had a beginning flowing source, whether it was a stream, a river or a well spring. Now then, it was necessary for the person or persons at the source of the saving water to see that the buckets were as full as possible, for if they were only half full or even less, then the work would increase proportionately. If the buckets went out empty of the important water, then the effort was indeed light weight, but fruitless in that it would accomplishment nothing. If anyone or any number of necessary people pulled themselves from the bucket passing line, then the work is also compounded and would make if difficult for those who remained to fully accomplish putting out the destructive fire that threatened all. From the first to the last, everyone was important to accomplish the end means of putting out the destructive fire so that the town would be saved.

    The marvelous accomplishment of the united town’s people, became a good tradition as long as they continued to take the buckets and fill them from the source of the water. But soon the Brigade developed a hierarchy. The chief bucketeer became very influential, and altered the original good tradition. With his self absorbed influence, the brigade stopped going to the source of the water and passed only empty buckets. No one got wet with the joy of passing the water any longer, for the bucket tradition was left empty of its original source of saving water.

    So it is with the church! We think our buckets are full of water having been filled once by the Holy Spirit and that is sufficient, but now when we look deep down within ourselves, we find ourselves filled only with our dry empty selves of self righteous importance. Until we come back to the Water and the Source that the Spirit of God gives, then we will continue to justify our own lonesome selves to ourselves and to anyone who will listen. “O wretched me, myself and I who will save me from this body of death”. We are not self sufficient within our individual selves, but need to be going to the Fountain of Living Water, Where the abundance of Life is endlessly flowing from the Well Spring of God that never runs dry.

    The Tradition of the Table of the Lord is rich beyond your understanding. The Lord and the Source of Living Water established Its boundless Grace for the well fare of all of His called out ones. If your tradition sees only an empty symbolic cup, then you have judged after the emptiness of the flesh of man, and have no understanding of the powerful flow of that Water and Blood that is of the Spirit of God and from the Life within Christ Jesus. If your tradition is set on the hierarchy of men and there doctrinal confusion with transubstantiation, then likewise you may not experience the Flow of the Spirit of God. Your faith may be dead within the traditional confines you set within yourself.

    Robert Glenn

  99. look at the birds of the air Jun 9th 2012

    That is true Robert concerning the once filled, its not once filled, but a ***continual pouring forth into our vessels.

  100. Why, oh why, do Christians find it so hard to believe “my yoke is easy and my burden is light, “…in their walk with the lord? Every Christian will go through trails and tribulations. That’s how your true faith will grow. Man so complicates every issue into a mountain of impossibilities. How very sad. God will never give you more than you can take, if you are His. Until we give up ALL rebellion, and mind-filled solutions that will ‘fix’ each problem, we keep the devil happy as a tic. Know that He is honing you, not Mary Jane or Albert. Until we understand the Bible is for you, His beloved, you will be tossed to and fro. He created each one of us and also deals with each person His Way….The great saints of yore put their thoughts and ideas at the feet of our Savior and let Him teach them His way. That’s why men’s ways have always caused disaster. Simply said: When you follow Him and Him alone, by faith, He will never leave you or forsake you.

  101. JeffM Jun 9th 2012

    Yes Andrew ,it will take STRONG leaders , who will not compromise on allways doing The Lord’s will, to prevent the next great move of God from failing. You have to know what the worldwide plan of religous deception ( trap) has been so you can avoid it . That deception is what I was talking about in my last post. A true New Testament servant leader will never go along with anything that is not God’s will for the group he leads ( serves really). It seems God has not found what He is looking for yet. Gideons army went from 32000 down to 300 before they were ready.

  102. …there seems to be quite a good lot of water flowing abundantly from the buckets around here lately from what I can see…..could it be that He is only filling the buckets that come to Him empty? Blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are those who hunger and thirst…………

  103. look at the birds of the air Jun 9th 2012

    that was good mum and Joan, I liked that:) the thing with the emptied bucket is that, where is the Living waters, it is a continuous flow. Many years ago, the Lord through the holy Spirit was teaching me to spend time with Him, not anxiously, not hurriedly , not worrying about things that needed to get done, but first and foremost seeking Him, be silent, being still, shutting out the noise of the world.
    We are not empty if we are seeking Him and spending time with Him, it really is continuous flow- pouring forth. those that choose not to seek Him and to spend time with Him and in His word can become empty.

    One day many years ago,I saw a long rectangle clock upon the wall. I saw two glass bottles/jars of old. The clock was picked up and I watched the whole clock just go into one of the old bottles. The bottle with time was picked up and began to be poured forth into the other bottle/jar. I heard, THE MORE TIME YOU SPEND WITH ME, THE MORE I SHALL POUR FORTH INTO YOU. I was thinking on the other bottle being emptied. He knew my thought and again, He said, Not so, for it is a continual pouring forth of Me. Meaning I was wrong in my thinking that the one was empty.

  104. Teshuva Jun 10th 2012

    I think you and Birds of the air are on target.
    Thing is no one is thirsty or hungry anymore, or their tastes have changed, would be a better description.
    He imputes His righteousness to us, which is His Spirit, and we then have a choice as to follow it or follow another. we can either drink it in or not.
    Birds of the air says being still and shutting out the noise of the world.
    This is what we have to do, and it is simple.
    Be still and KNOW that I am God
    Be still and KNOW that I am love
    Be still and KNOW that I am joy
    Be still and KNOW that I am peace…..
    It all adds up to KNOW Me, which is eternal life.
    Most of what is out there is bitter water which should not come forth from the same fountain. Though He did say that if we drank poison/bitter stuff that no deadly thing would harm us.

  105. Matthew 20:25-28

    “But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave—just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

    Philippians 2:5-11

    “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

  106. Something new to me to share: there is no I can again be convince by any living man that my greatest enemy of progress is christ is someone or something outside of me. For within me I have found babylon and eygpt worst than that of babylon and eygpt that I found outside of me for nothing that happen outside of me no matter how evil it may be as worst to me as the evil that worked in me, There was a time in my childisness the Lord allowed me to see more of babylon without me and less of babylon within me. But what is hapening now is amazing me , why ? because I am seeing less of babylon outside of me and more of babylon within me . At first it was the external trumpter “come out of her ” runing here and there for fear of her abominations but suddenly all has changed the voice is now internal crying “come out of her , by COMING UP HERE ” Oh the sweetness of that divine union , where Life flows with endless streams of living waters , where the songs of victory are sang even when passing through the darkest valley ” Oh to see this great thing that I missed it was a great beauty when I saw , even though I may gave up every other thing in search of Him , if I will not give this one thing to Him which is nothing but My HEART that He might communicate His will and abide therein in increasing measure then no matter where i may be, the group, orginization, denomination, non orginization all will not mean anything but dead works and dead sacrifice. Oh that we might all contend for the most perfect way and most important thing sonner or later we will all come into that perfect unity . He never gives His divine life to none and possess none but He that surrender His heart in unceasing continual devotion and intimacy.

  107. Teshuva Jun 10th 2012

    Amen James!

  108. My understanding from scripture is that ‘Babylon’ is false religion – so if someone see’s more Babylon inside of them’self’ – that is indeed a concern.

    In His love,

  109. Ah, the Babylon within in me.
    Marvelous James! For give me if I reworked your first sentence.

    Something new [for] me to share: There is no [way] I can again be convince[d] by any living man that my greatest enemy of progress [in] Christ is someone or something outside of me.

  110. Dear Roger,

    Babylon is confusion.

  111. God bless you Robert for that worked.

  112. Teshuva Jun 10th 2012

    Robert Glenn,
    I am with you on that.

  113. Teshuva Jun 10th 2012

    But false religion is why there is confusion, so Roger is right as well.

  114. Hi Kevin,

    Thanks for your response to me…

    In my own life I’ve seen a progression towards Holiness rather than a “once and for all” attainment of Holiness, i.e. “I’ve arrived now and I will never sin again”…

    The way I believe the Lord has shown me regarding us being ready for any specific task that He may have set us is that as we hear His Voice we will know to go and do this or do that or approach that person or email that person or whatever…

    I just know that He has promised to always be with me and when He has specifically called me to do something I know that He will empower me to do it…

    I suppose that’s my confidence…

    Not that I’m perfect or that I have “arrived” but that I’m sufficiently “cleaned up” to handle that specific task which He has set me…

    Does this make sense to you?

    Love in the Lord,


  115. Dear Teshuva,

    From Adam, we are all religious people, and as little confused gods, we are all right in our own eyes, and do it our way in justifying ourselves in the various Babylonian religions we have created. In other words,
    the confusion in man came before the religious confusion was established by man.

    There is only One God and One Lord of this universe, and only One Way where we can meet with Him, and that is within the Perfect Heart of His Son, Christ Jesus where the Perfect Love of God abounds without end.

  116. My concern remains however – that someone see’s ‘confusion’ inside themself.

    1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

    In His love,

  117. Teshuva Jun 10th 2012

    Dear Robert,
    i truly understand what you are saying.
    I have been through this that James is expressing.
    I called it a personal apocalypse and thus.
    I can only say that when the unsealing began within me, I seen how very wicked the heart is and this started the battle of Armageddon within. In fact I thought all that junk was gone from me, until the abyss of my heart was exposed, and had to be overcome, and am still overcoming, as He gains more and more ground.
    I can only say that He is faithful.

  118. Andrew J Horton,

    What you say in your post above is how I endeavor to walk also.

    I describe it as having Christ as the majority shareholder, for once we are sufficiently cleaned up to know His voice and Will , then we only ” do ” according to His prompting, rather than our own endeavors which may be all very well intended , however if they are not of His prompting then they are simply works of the flesh.

    In His love


  119. Regarding the issue of Babylon within ;

    Do we see the connection between the following verses ?

    2Co 11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

    Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

    Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

    Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    For this is why the apostle Paul called us all to examine ourselves to see that we are in the faith, as this “other Jesus ” brings nothing but confusion , self promotion and confusion.

  120. Amen Kevin

  121. Teshuva Jun 10th 2012

    Isn’t that what most churches are about? Self promotion?
    Truthfully, isn’t that what most people are about?
    This other Yeshua, is the letter that kills, and devoid of the spirit that quickens.
    When a child of Gods, spirit is quickened, it has to eat live food not dead stuff.
    The mind is the soul, and when transformed is the wedding garment that gets you into the Kingdom. In other words you are clothed in your right mind or the mind of Christ.
    The man of Gaderenes- often he was in the mountains/kingdoms and the tombs/open sepulcher.
    These are an illustration of the guiding of the pharisees, as Yeshua said that our righteousness has to exceed the righteousness of the pharisees, and said that their mouths were open sepulchers and full of dead mens bones. Yeshua even said that their father was the devil and that they were full of lies and hypocrisy.
    He also said that they withheld the key of knowledge in Luke 11:52, and hindered those that were trying to enter and that they would not enter themselves.
    The key of knowledge to the Kingdom is that it is not of this world, but a spiritual one, so a spiritual key.
    Listening to man over listening to the Lord is adultery, and this was the original sin– God said not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil or you will die.
    Instead of knowing God, they would rather know good and evil. This was adultery and He expelled them from the garden. But He loved us so much that He sent Yeshua, as an example that we can go back to the garden. Yeshua did nothing but what He saw the Father do or what the Father told him to do.
    He said that all that went before Him were thieves and robbers, and was crucified between two of them. The one faced Him/repentance and said remember me when You come into Your Kingdom. Yeshua said, today, you will be with me in paradise.
    As I meditated on this, I realized that Yeshua is in paradise, the garden, as this is how it was in the beginning, when He talked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the day.

  122. Teshuva,

    The ” other Jesus ” comes in many forms including the modern pharisee you have mentioned.

    Self promoting can come in the form or spiritual aloofness that doesn’t recognize the true authority of Lord Jesus Christ .

    That is why we all need to heed the words of the apostle Paul, his example and the example of Lord Jesus Christ, for when the real Jesus lives within us, His real nature and character will show through us, in other words the fruit of His indwelling Spirit.

    In His love


  123. Teshuva,

    I meant to say above ;

    Self promoting can come in the form ( of ) spiritual aloofness that doesn’t recognize the true authority of Lord Jesus Christ ., as well as false humility , seeing visions that are deceptions, all of this is covered in the writing of the apostle Paul and Lord Jesus Christ, so it is well worth looking at it all, as it was given for a reason.

  124. Thank you Tachiva,

    My thoughts were running in the same direction as yours. Although I don’t like to give the adversary any grounds, I wanted to qualify my last post with the following revised and extended thoughts.

    The confusion in man, came before the religious confusion was established by man, and that confusion came from the subtle influence of the author of confusion, Satan. In the Garden of Eden, with Slue foot’s challenge over the food supply, confusion began within the self of Adam: Did the Lord God really mean what He said: Nah, for in the day you eat you shall be as gods knowing the difference between good and evil? With Adam and Eve’s treasonous choice for self independence, faith and trust in the only God of the living was broken, and fear and death reigned in the heart of man.

    Satan diverted the minds of our first parents from God, and they ate of the self determining mixture of the good and the evil, and therefore they became one with the very same root of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. In our humanity, our neuronal minds are entangled and rooted in that same tree. We have made our own self centered decisions based on what we think is good or evil for the good of our selves. If fear is at work within our minds, then the knowledge of written scripture does not necessarily help, for it can be deciphered wrongly when our hearts are in a state of confusion. Though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not Love, I am nothing.The Word of the Lord through Jeremiah says: For My people have committed two evils; they have forsaken Me the Fountain of Living Waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

    In unbelief, we are all like broken cisterns made of self centered flesh that can not contain the flood of cleansing pure Water that flows from the throne of God. That Fountain of Living Waters is the Perfect Love of God that surpasses all human knowledge and understanding, and is only possessed through faith in the abundance within God’s Son, Christ Jesus. The Spirit of God would produce that Well Spring within us if we were not so fearful and fragile of heart. God’s Perfect Love casts out all fear and makes new vessels that can contain this Perfect Love in Christ Jesus. But then again, are there demands on that Love. Yes! It is to be given away to those in need, and not to be hidden away with fear of outside contamination. That flow of God’s Love in Christ Jesus is always there for us through the Spirit of the Fountain of Living Water that flows continuously from God’s throne of grace.

    The problem with the unbelieving and fearful in Christianity, is that they are not made whole in the Perfect Love of God, and like broken cisterns there is no Love of God to be given away. Neither do they know the Heart of the Source or how to lead others to the Fountain of Living Waters. Unbelief is stifling and claustrophobic in its uncertainty. But the Perfect Love of God is free flowing, refreshing the heart where it begins to produce the fruit of God’s Spirit.

    If I say that the Perfect Love of God is in the Life Blood of His Son given in the Spirit of Communion, then what do you say? If I say that the Fountain of Living Water is flowing from God’s Table of Communion Grace and we need to return in full faith to the God of the Living and His Provisions of His Son’s Body and Blood, then again, what do you say? I understand well, for the silence confirms what your mind is saying, “Yeah, but the Lord God did not really mean this is My Body and this is My Blood”.

    Robert Glenn

  125. Hi Kevin,

    I think we’re heading in the same direction… :-)

    I suppose what I’m saying is that I don’t believe that I’ll ever get to a point where I can say (or would ever want to say), “I only ever hear God’s Voice and I only ever obey God’s Voice, I am never deceived and I never obey any other voice other than God’s”…

    I am heading in that direction – hearing and obeying His Voice more and more and more – as He reveals Himself and His Voice and His Presence more and more and more to me – and yes, definitely He owns me (I have been bought with a price) but I would never want to classify myself as having “arrived” in terms of “non-deceptibility” (if there is such a word) or in terms of “unfailing obedience”…

    I know that I will continue to grow in Him for the rest of my life…

    And I’m quite happy about that…

    My life is about Knowing Him…

    He will let me get to Know Him more and more and more through all that I go through for the rest of my life…

    My call, my life, everything which happens to me or my family or my work situation or anything else which affects me is all calculated by the Lord to let me get to Know Him more…

    He is in perfect control of this process and all I have to do is “let it happen” and as it does I get to Know Him more…

    He will show me when to “fight”, He will show me when to be “silent”, He will show me when to stand back and be “hit”, He will show me when to speak – and if I “stuff up” He will show me that I “stuffed up” and get me back on the track that I (the new I) really want to be on anyway… :-)

    I am safe in His Hands and He is Shepherding me…

    He is Strong…

    He is Loving…

    He is not manipulative or controlling…

    He is not demanding…

    He provides what I need to follow Him…

    I love Him…

    Because He provides everything that I need to Love Him and Follow Him…

    I feel no pressure from God – I feel drawn into His Presence…

    Yes, sometimes He is firm and I don’t like that at the time but later on I understand His Logic and know that that was the only way to “get through to me”…

    I suppose as I type that I’m really describing Psalm 23… :-)

    Praise You Jesus…

    That would have been a lot quicker eh? just quote Psalm 23… :-)

    Love in the Lord,


  126. Andrew J Horton,

    For me the apostle Paul is a very good example of the reality of walking in Christ.

    Lord Jesus Christ revealed Himself to Saul/Paul after His death and resurrection, so in Paul we see a clear example of how Christ calls flesh and blood unto Him and fills and leads us by His Holy Spirit.

    Although Paul walked in all the signs and authority of a true apostle, he was aware daily of the weakness of his flesh and the way his flesh could lead him to do the things he knows he shouldn’t.

    So in Paul we have a great example of someone who never considered that he had arrived at anything other than knowing that in his weakness Christ was strong in him.



  127. Regarding the internal struggle;

    To put things plainly our main adversary is what is within us as others have said, in what ever way they have expressed this.

    This is why we need to have the real Jesus within us as it is only in Him and through Him that any of us can overcome that which in within us.

    The enemy knows this so attempts to come as the spirit of God.

    This is why Jesus and Paul wrote so much to warn us to ensure that when we examine ourselves we truly find Christ within.

  128. Amen Kevin, We are on the same page… :-)

  129. Ibelieve Jun 10th 2012

    Mum Wrote:
    I don’t know what else we can do Andrew, it is either be led by the Spirit of God, or be led by our own ideas, and for if He doesn’t lead me to a church or fellowship then I want to be obedient…..not my will but His, whatever the cost………………………………………………………

    This is True!

    For myself, I do not believe God wants me to set in a church and follow their program of dead works.

    Except the Lord build the house they labor in vain who build it.

    I have found that their is an element in Christianity who strive to have people to do it my way and then act like your not spiritual attitude if you refuse to join in.

    Jesus said:
    47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

    I believe the words of Jesus is the light to our path that we must follow with our whole heart. If we do not follow what Jesus said, then we are following what man says.

    When churches preach contrary to the Bible and then use the ways of the world to get converts with their rock and roll and skits, I find this is not a place that one will be growing in the Lord.

    It is possible that God is going to do something new in the earth at the end of time. While everyone is expecting one thing to happen He may very well raise up an army of believers who will go forth in the power and anointing doing the works and greater works of Jesus.

    Totally leading everyone by the Holy Spirit of God in one great end time move. These are people who have made themselves ready forsaking all and following Him.

    In the book of Acts the people set at the feet of the Apostles learning about Jesus, then when persecution came they were scattered and went forth as individuals ministering the gospel.

    Preaching the gospel to the world is not so complicated. But it is taking the message of the cross so that men can be set free from sin and death and they can have Eternal Life.

  130. Amen IBelieve, it is just as Joan W said in her post, we each simply follow His will and leading……..there are times when we may be led to the churches for His purposes as well, much like the early believers went to the Temple to be witnesses there even though they had really fled it in their hearts to take hold of Christ. But they were no longer yoked to the apostate religion of that time, but rather yoked to Jesus instead.

    Amen Birds of the Air and Teshuva……speaking of redeeming the time which has been on my mind recently..

    Amen to your post James, to me like a breath of fresh air and the fragrance of Christ in what you are saying……… we leave Babylon for the very purpose of getting “it” out of us, none other than the old man and flesh…..I have seen the enemy as the old saying goes, and it is ME !!

  131. Teshuva Jun 10th 2012

    Dear Robert,
    My silence was a result of going to bed. Please forgive the delay in my answer.
    As for going to church, if He sends me then I will go, as for now this is not what I am to do.
    As to know if I am in the faith, all I can say is that I am not what I used to be. I have experienced a love that is pure and unadulterated, causing me to submit to an authority other than my own.
    As for Yeshua being in a church, He is not there unless we bring Him in, because He is in us, in a measure, greater in some and less in others. Nevertheless we should not tromp on the small beginning within each other.
    I look at church differently in that where ever there is a gathering in His name/character, that He is in the midst.
    Anywhere there is sharing of the body going on, all we can do is it the meat and spit out the bones.

    It has been said that this website is not a church, nevertheless there have been some good things laid on its table that have been edible and uplifting.

  132. Teshuva Jun 10th 2012

    I am sorry that is eat the meat and spit out the bones, not it the meat.

  133. Teshuva Jun 10th 2012

    Kevin writes,
    as well as false humility , seeing visions that are deceptions.

    False humility is a mask, a pretense of something that we are not.
    As for visions, I cannot help but believe the visions in most cases are true but misinterpreted as even myself have done, but have learned to put them on the back burner until I get further understanding on them.

    I had a vision of wheat being harvested, and that the harvest is ripe. When this first happened years ago, the wheat was gathered in my barns, and I was o.k with this, however little did I know that at that time my life would be required of me-death of the old nature, and thus the tares were harvested as they had come to maturity as well, and were burned.
    Before this time I was looking outwardly at folks and seeing the tares amongst the wheat, which was correct, and the vision probably for many of them as well.
    So greater now is my understanding of the vision.
    The laborers are few is because we do not look for these things to be happening with in and thus do not labor that they be done.
    The last time I had the vision which was a few weeks ago the wheat though gathered into the barn is thus distributed. I send forth love even if love is not returned.
    For the sake of peace, I will take the wrong regardless if in my heart I sense that what was given me was true.
    Rather than argue a point and start wars or have rumors of wars within the body, it’s much easier for me to follow the way of peace and possess my own soul that has been redeemed. Does that make me always right?
    Absolutely not, as I am still a work in progress myself.

  134. look at the birds of the air Jun 10th 2012

    Teshuva , that was well shared. What are we to boast in and about? if we boast , we boast about our Lord and in the Lord, of what He is and how Great He is. I was reading this morning in the word about some of the things being talked about here, throughout these comments. I long for unity, I so long for sweet fellowship. The Lord has done this and than
    separated, like as in seasons, years. Im sure some of you have also been through that too.

    I even looked up the words in the bible about fellowship and their were some verses that caught my eye. Talking about sweet fellowship with the Spirit. I looked up the word boasting and how we are not to boast one man over another – 1 Cor. 4:6

    Also about the Lord teaching and training his servants up:
    Jeremiah 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more

    .”Matthew 13:11 He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

    John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

    John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever–John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The ***world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    (How very very true is that above, the world cannot accept the Spirit of Truth)

    John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

    Why is it so hard to just share and for others to share? Constant divisions and yet we know this must be as scripture tells us. But quite frankly Im tired of who knows more than the other or who thinks they have it all right, I know I sure dont and Im constantly learning and gleaning, maturing up in Christ. But I also dont want to chew on something that is not of the Lord and nor do I want to be with religious thinking people who know the word but really dont know Jesus and His charachter. I dont want to know about your religious works and whos who, but talk about the Lord and fellowship with like-minded people and what He is doing and sharing with His servants.

    Their are always religious people believing they have it all down pat and its etched in their brains, but God is not etched in their hearts. The Lords people are constantly learning from Him as someone I believe said above, sitting at His feet. Reading the word with their hearts and love for Him, instead of using it to kill someone, or call them heretics, or making up names as they go along.

    None of us are perfected, we are being perfected, the Lord is maturing us up in Him. Again like Joan and few others shared, its simple and easy, The Lord doesnt give us more than we can handle. He who formed us knows us, and we are all different but the one thing as in the upper room, they all had in common, their love for Jesus and waiting together, communing, praying and true fellowshipping. That is what sweet fellowship to me truly means, loving the Lord out loud without quarrels and disputes but actually coming together in one accord.

    But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye**** need not( no need, no need, no need) that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1 John 2:27

    Let us never assume that someone whom calls themselves or perceives themselves to be a spiritual leader, has truly been called of God and by God to lead/leadership. God is the Final Authority in all things. Their are true people who can lead but their fruit is evident in that they have been gifted to do such and they do not walk in pride but walk humbly before the one whom called them.

  135. Teshuva Jun 10th 2012

    There are three behaviors in scripture.
    Wisdom, which is love/spirit-from God
    Folly, which is lust/flesh- of man
    madness, which is pride/flesh- satan

    If we would only allow His love to consume us then the flesh would be of none effect.
    I can point my finger at others in judgement, but there is always three others pointing back at me.
    So now when I go to judge I have to ask myself, why are you judging? Have you walked away from the mirror and forgotten who you were, and how patient and long suffering he dealt with you? Will you just love and allow Him to do the cleaning? I am only left with clean also me Lord.

  136. Dear Teshuva,

    My intention was to greet you positively affirming our like mind thoughts beginning in the garden, and the post was not directed to you specifically. It was intended for all who have ears to hear, for it seems that when the Communion in the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is mentioned, most of the JTBtv followers are silent and quickly move away. So it was when the Lord said: “Amen, Amen, I say unto you; Except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His Blood, you have no life within you.” Offense was taken by the listeners of the Words of the Lord declaring that He was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven. Then the Lord said: But there are some of you that believe not”. Shortly after that, all of the followers, but the twelve, went on their own way, and walked no longer with the Lord.

    Interestingly there were twelve people who responded to a forum thread titled “Communion” started by Ezekiel Rose. Perhaps some of readers would be interested in seeing the views of the twelve that are linked here: http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/bbpress/topic/3081

    In the peace of the Lord,
    Robert Glenn

  137. The church which I was told to leave by members of the congregation because I spoke up against false doctrine, was originally a member of the Assemblies of God. Its two ministers were AOG ordained. The leadership began to hob knob with a local free church who were very much involved with Restorationism.
    Both of the churches held a referendum of joining the two churches together and the majority of their membership voted in agreement. So both churches came together and the eventually it was decided to break away from AOG to become independent. They called themselves … New Life Christian Fellowship and later became just …New Life Church, its modern name.
    Its so called vision was “revival” covering a part of England. But the reality from this deception was to create further New Life Churches and … New Life Church did this by persquading established churches to join them to form an established network. That is what the vision was all about.
    …New Life Church attracts young people and couples. While many of the elderly members left since its formation. One aim was to bring revival to the city. This never came and never happened. It was suppose to take the message of the gospel into the streets. This was dropped by the leadership due to them saying that this was old fashioned and because they were going to produce a lively church with modern christian music and having signs and wonders operating, people from all sorts of life would flock to its church services. This is their aim for the century relying on folk to leave churches and come to them. However, not many non christians visit or pay attention to their teachings and doctrines.
    It has not change much since its new conception and …New Life Church is now run as a business having to employ staff to do this. They sell dvd, cds, books on its vision and leadership plus commodity items from known christian celebrities who operate with similar aims, teachings and doctrines, and who are part of the charismatic movement, and restorationism/dominionism.
    This church together with other established denominational churches look after themselves, keep themselves to themselves if different, and operate within the four walls of their church buildings forgetting what goes on outside, and if you think or believe otherwise, keep you at arms length because you are not one of them.
    I wonder how they will treat John the Baptist who was the Voice in the Wilderness with his call to repentance.
    The western church of today does not bare any resemblance to that of the New Testament. For when the emphasis is on revival for the sake of it and the reality is of building church empires, disgarding biblical doctrine by man made teachings and prophecies, this is leading to the falling away as described in the Bible.
    Yes, we can have revival (of what ever) but without Repentance it is meaningless. And for the Unity, at what cost because the only unity which is being seen by true believers is that which is coming under movements, religious and self appointed names, and of course the emerging church leading onto the FALSE CHURCH.
    Care to comment?

  138. This was sent to me by a journalist who is a christian. His name is John and what he shares bares am exact rememblance as to what is happening in the christian church. You may or may disagree with him but what he has said is just the tip of the iceberg. I agree with the written article.

    Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the LORD. Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the LORD. Jeremiah 23 verses 1 to 2

    This is what the Lord Almighty says: Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes.They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.They keep saying to those who despise me,‘The LORD says: You will have peace.’ And to all who follow the stubbornness of their heartsthey say, ‘No harm will come to you.’But which of them has stood in the council of the to see LORD or to hear his word? Who has listened and heard his word? Jeremiah 23 verses 16 to 18

    I did not send these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied. But if they had stood in my council, they would have proclaimed my words to my people and would have turned them from their evil ways and from their evil deeds. Am I only a God nearby, declares the LORD, and not a God far away? Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them? declares the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD. I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream! Jeremiah 23 verses 21 to 25

    Therefore,” declares the LORD, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. Yes,” declares the LORD, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The LORD declares.’ Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the LORD. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the LORD. Jeremiah 23 verse 30 to 32

    Then the LORD said, “These prophets are telling lies in my name. I did not send them or tell them to speak. I did not Therefore, this is what the LORD says: I will punish these lying prophets, for they have spoken in my name even though I never sent them. They say that no war or famine will come, but they themselves will die by war and famine!give them any messages. They prophesy of visions and revelations they have never seen or heard. They speak foolishness made up in their own lying hearts. Jeremiah 14 verses 14 to 15

    The days of past experience involving warnings given by Almighty God to His church have not been learnt from. History is teaching once again that man does not learn from history. It has become familar within the modern western christian church where repeat performances are taking place and yet people do not take heed and continue on the downward slope leading to His judgement. It is as though when the Lord Jesus taught and warned about the repercussions of the Days of Noah and the Apostle Paul warned about the effects and the practices of the Days of Sodom and Gomorrah, would people listening take heed? Some did while others dismissed the consequences following.

    The question that comes to light for the 21st century is this – as the western church continues to go beyond the boundaries which have been laid down by the Word of God, and has in fact reached the crossroads of no return which will lead to the destruction of our evil generation, what will happen next?

    Well, brethren are reporting that religious and occult practices are taking a stanglehold within the christian church and REPENTANCE is being shelved for the sake of christians wanting to become prosperous similar to that of christian celebrities and christian leaders whose empires and mega churches are being built, and the expansion of their organisations using so called christian tv channels which hog the airwaves. All done in the name of Jesus.

    In reading 1 John 4 verse 1 where it is written “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world,” many christians are wanting to be entertained by chasing signs and wonders which are being seen on stage managed performances. This spiritual phenomena proceeds from singing chosen choruses and songs led from the front by worship leaders, sung repeatedly, and the audience is encourage to speak aloud in gibberish languages, called speaking in tonges, without any interpretions. And those leaders on stage announce this to be revival which is part of a world wide revival that is supposingly waking up the christian church and affecting nations. Hmm…something is missing from their formulas which are not working!

    A few years ago it was estimated to require one thousand laypersons and six ministers one year to lead one person to the Lord Jesus Christ. It was also estimated that 95 percent of the christians today never lead a soul to Christ. This is the reversal of the commandment of the Lord when He said GO YE. The strategy of New Testament evangelism bares no relation today to bring people to Christ. And why? Christians in the 21st century prefer to hide within the four walls of church buildings and congregations are too afraid to enter from their sanctuaries into the big wide world as the Lord Jesus, His disciples, and New Testament brethren did. Therefore it may be true thet it takes 85 lay people one year to lead one person to Christ! Think seriously about this statistic.

    What does it mean to be a church and to really serve the Lord Jesus Christ and His commandments? Have christians relegated their faith to out running sin and avoiding all contact with the outside world? What brethren have been sharing it is believed so!

    Not only the christian church is facing being shaken by Almighty God, can christians receive the call to be a scattered church or will they just remain a church that is scattered? Believers have came to one conclusion; the christian church have become a scattered church. Webster defines “scatter” as to “Throw loosely about.” This is believed that this is the problem of the church. For if christians are not focused; they are thrown loosely about and have lost the reality of what they have been called to do and who they have been called to be. Those who call themselved followers of Christ must GET OUT and tell somebody what the Lord Jesus has done for them and those who follow Him. So simple but sorry to say is ignored. Instead christians are drifting to one church or another to find acceptance, fellowship, and purpose. The composition of modern day churches and membership has not changed much or has increased in large numbers but have remained static because of what teachings and practices are allowed from their leaderships. There has become a false unity from both within and of outside from the denominational church system. And of course, there are disagreements on how to evangelise the world outside due to the fear of being margalised and being named as extreme by the political and religious system operating.

    This is what the christain church in the western hemisphere should hopefully be doing if they believe in REPENTANCE – its aim is to take the gospel of Jesus Christ to the community, to lead all people to REPENTANCE and faith in God the Father and Christ his son, and to nurture faith and healing through the power of the Holy Spirit.

    But alas this is not happening due disobedience, wanting to make a name for themselves, doing their own thing in the sight of Almighty God, and of course which is being exposed is the fleecing of the flock so that the church leadership at the top can keep power and control over their followers. With these days of austerity and financial chaos everywhere, those at the helm of the modern day christian church are panicing because they want to keep a grip on their positions, and what has replaced christianity, has become an ugly face of churchianity with false teachers and prophets who contol much of the christian church, its doctrines and practices, seeking out more followers to come into the fold of deception.

    Recently I have met a few charismatics who were suppose to be brothers and sisters (plus friends) in the Lord while attending and after leaving a well know established charismatic church. Our meetings have been sporadic since my departure. Some are under the influence of giving money to get God’s blessings, and having three holidays abroad each year, while others are still waiting to take nearby villages and the city for Jesus. They only hob knob, similar to church leadership, with certain people. And that is what they are prepared and keep doing. So their friendship has waned as I am not part of their church anymore. They do not wish to keep in contact despite our christian backgrounds. That is how church systems work today and this why so many churches are insular and isolated from the real world.

    It has become similar to that of the use of the telephone, the mobile phone, the internet, and writing letters. All of these tools have been given to one another to use but alas as with the internet, it was a fad to begin with the use of e-mail. Very few christians use this method of communication today but spend hours on the internet browsing for all sorts of information. When something dramatically happens they keep the news to themselves with excuses made on passing it on. They are enticed to bank on the internet, buy and sell on the internet, and to shop using large companies such as supermarkets. This the new approach to keep people inside and not to enter out from home buildings to visit local shops. This ploy has taken hold and sucessful. The anology is with church buildings where christians do not to go into the world to preach the Gospel message but await for people to come to church, and of course, if people have access to computers and the internet can view what is deemed to be called christian teaching on web sites.

    What brethren are reporting back is how lazy people have become relying on other folk to do the work for them. While the internet can be a tool for communication, it also can be controlled, abused, and where necessary, internet providers can be closed down as already seen in Arab countries experienceing the Arab Spring. When the financial market took a battering a few years ago, the selling of stocks and shares was suspended on the internet by the American Stock Exchange for three days to calm down the flow of money coming and going. What a way to get people using computer systems and the internet, then taking folk off line when the financial market collapses and to impose the Mark of the Beast on everyone on planet earth. Think about this – so simple and effective! Cyberspace can be controlled and curtailed for the wrong purposes. Governments have already used these methods of control. A world government will do the same but more efficiently. The coming world leader and his henchman called the False Prophet will have complete power and control during the Great Tribulation.

    But one christian guy I met recently, believed to be a charismatic and who left this church later, made an astonishing statement that he has been converted to Roman Catholicism. Our encounter was brief and he could not chat to me as he was attending Mass. However, he said that he was training to be cistercian monk which requires dedication, discipline and servitude to the religious order’s rules and regulations. This is what he had been searching for years. But when he was challenged to be a John the Baptist calling the people, the christian church, and the nation to Repentance, he just laughed and walked on to the church service. However, he gestered when meeting again, he might wish to talk about this. Yes, he is now part of the RC Church which is the biggest cult in the world.

    The RC Church has created many doctrines contrary to clear biblical teachings. This is no different to that on Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell et al who have done the same. Rome has added many extra bibical teachings that are false. Brethren have only to look to the finisher of our faith who is Jesus Christ. The RC Church refers to Mary as the Queen of Heaven which has no baring with the Word of God. Does not 1 Tomothy 4 verse 1 declare… Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.

    Perhaps I am considered as someone who is “dividing the body of Christ”, or “blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit”, but it is my hope and prayer that the end result will be a purifying of the Body of Christ – the true church. Have folk like myself been sent to Coventry, in using that term, or are being given a wide berth because of preaching REPENTANCE as what John the Baptist did in New Testament times. Old Testament prophets did likewise with many having to pay the price for doing so. In the End Times religious people will abandoned the Faith allowing themselves to fall in deception by accepting substitutes. Religious folk will betray one another believing that they are going God a favour. That is why the Apostle Paul wrote: “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” 2 Timothy 3 verse 12

    Then of course not only has the christian church been infiltrated by false teachers and prophets who are using christians for their own means and ends ( the Word of Faith Movement is one example) there are those in church leadership who come under the umbrella of ecumenicalism and are trying to bring religious groups together because of the claim that they all lead to God. However, it is not what Almighty God says in His bible.

    It’s the utilization of modern marketing techniques by the western church that are being used, in order to draw and hold large numbers of people. The church then converts them using certain methods of persuation, and disciples them through the use of modern organizational management techniques, so that they can effect change the community, and eventually the world. They become agents of social change, or the term that is being used in various circles “change agents.” This over the years is called the Church Growth Movement, yet another man made movement run by men such as Rick Warren.

    If one wishes to become a member in the modern western christian church you are requested to submit to church authority. So what is said and done one is not expected to disagree or challenge. This is called discipleship but with a difference.

    Once in the church, people are then discipled. They are taken through a series of classes beginning with church membership. Covenants are signed, where one pledges to tithe a certain amount or percentage of their wages). The disciple agrees to submit to the church leadership, not to gossip or evaluate the activities of the church leadership in the light of or the comparison of the Holy Scriptures. Two words which come to light in submitting to such authority can be called Heavy Shepherding. The Jehovah Witnesses do this as with the Mormon Church. Not much difference here except man made doctrine.

    There are many pseudo-christian movements. These man made movements are not about holy living through the power of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. There are counterfeit teachings in such movements but then there are counterfeit teachings which are found in all denominations. Churches, what ever persuasions, haev embraced some of these movements abberant teachings in exchange for the signs and wonders.This is precisely the nature of deception Paul referred to in 2 Cor. 11:3-4 and is why deceptive gospels are operating and have beome so destructive to the christian church.

    Lucifer/ Devil is now busy at work in the same field in which the Lord Jesus sowed the good seed. Satan is seeking to prevent the growth of the wheat by another plant, the tares, which closely resembles the wheat in appearance. In a word, by a process of imitation he is aiming to neutralize the Work of Christ. Therefore, as Christ has a Gospel, Satan has a gospel too; the latter being a clever counterfeit of the former. So closely does the gospel of Satan resemble that which it parodies, multitudes of christians and the unsaved are deceived by it. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24 verse 24. To emphasis this, if false prophets are going to be able to do as Christ said in Matthew 24:24 to deceive even the elect, their message will not be clearly deceptive but will appear to be truth. Does it make sense he might disguise his counterfeit gospel accompanied with counterfeit signs and miracles?

    I believe there are still miracles occuring today. There are true exorcisms, there are those truly speaking in tongues, and there are those instances of a Godly healing. However, just because these signs are present in a ministry does not necessarily make them from God. Satan is using these same supernatural signs to deceive many.

    The closer we get to the time of the Christ’s return, christians and non christians will see more counterfeit supernatural miracles, signs and wonders performed by false prophets to deceive the elect. We need to be very careful about any ministry that we are not being deceived and acknowledge that even Satan can work miracles.

    One cannot export revival as an event to be taken on tour. This never happened in the Bible and the Apostles did not conjure up spiritual phenomenon to produce it. This is what is taking place on tour going from place to place throughout the USA. See the following as an example…

    June 21-22, 2012 | Thursday @ 7 PM, Friday @ 10 AM & 7 PM |

    Calvary Assembly of God Winter Park, Florida 32789 USA Join Pastor John Kilpatrick, Evangelist Nathan Morris and Worship Leader Lydia Stanley for 3 powerful revival services.
    Thursday, June 21st @ 7PM with Evangelist Nathan Morris
    Friday, June 22nd @ 10AM with Pastor John Kilpatrick
    Friday, June 22nd @ 7PM with Evangelist Nathan Morris

    Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1 Timothy 4 verse 1

    This is what the early church did..They met in people’s houses – not a building They looked outwards rather than inwards – to evangelise and to help those less fortunate. The leaders were appointed by the church democratically, not imposed or the use of paid hirelings and believers were given the opportunity to study scripture, prayer and spirituality, so that their leadership was effective, and not the blind leading the blind, as this is how heresies begin. The best thing is to read Acts of the Apostle and some of Paul’s letters to get an feel of how New Testament churches began.

    The membership of the christian church is being scattered due to its disobedience from within. Brethren are being instructed and led by the Lord to come out from amongst those who preach another gospel and abuse and use christianity for their own means and ends, where brethren will be ridiculed, despised, ostracised and persecuted by those claiming to be of christian origin.

    May this video clip be of couragement http://vimeo.com/6276021 to those listening to the voice of Almighty God and His instructions for the End Times.


  139. Teshuva Jun 11th 2012

    Please forgive my misunderstanding of your previous comment, and thank you for clarifying it.
    I guess I was thinking of your comment combined with Kevin’s as well as the vision the Lord gave me of eating at His table.
    I have no excuses, except I should have chewed the cud more with your response and understood it before I wrote my reply.

  140. That you Colin for your contribution. It has spoken volumes with me and has given encouragement for my walk with Christ. Yes, I do need fellowship, and take part in the home group with like minded believers who are not afraid to go into the world to preach the Good News and get involved in serving the community. For the Lord Jesus was a servant and is the only person I wish to follow, especially in the Last Days.

  141. I know that the Lord is doing His good works in all of us here. Thank you Mum, Andrew J, Kevin, Birds in the air, Teshuva, just everyone here who hunger for God and His love. As we allow God, He will feed, nourish, and teach us His ways. None of us will go hungry.

    To remenber this helps me. Paul and Peter disagreed, but they ironed out their differences…Let us pray for one another, for we all share: “The Lord is My shephard, I shall not want.” light note: I don’t agree with anyone always, not even with myself, however another scripture at that moment comes to my motely mind, “Be still and know that I am God.” He sets me on “the right” again. Andrew Strom, I’m praying for you and your family. You have always been a blessing, with your open heart and love for the Lord Jesus Christ.

  142. Teshuva,

    If you have any interest in looking at what I shared you can read 2 Corin 11, all of Colossians , and 1 and 2 Thessalonians, as Paul ‘s writings reflect Christ ‘s revelations to him after the sending of the Holy Spirit, which is the same period that we walk in.



  143. Dear Teshuva,

    I would love to hear of your vision of eating at the Table of the Lord.

    Robert Glenn

  144. Who wants to be a child of the light in a Christian coven anyway? I’m not surprised the water left. The child of the light was probably in agony.

  145. Who wants to be a child of the light in a Christian coven anyway? I’m not surprised the water left. The child of the light was probably in agony.

  146. Who wants to be a child of the light in a Christian coven anyway? I’m not surprised the water left. The child of the light was probably in agony.

  147. Teshuva Jun 11th 2012

    Wished I could tell you that it was this glamorous set up, but I can not.
    It happened as a result of entering a church and allowing myself to become a foolish Galatian.
    It took my focus off God and placed it on men and their doctrines.
    After leaving their church, I received a vision of Yeshua sitting at this huge banquet table, and there were saints sitting all around, being fed of the Lord. In the corner were the people who had tried to take my focus off the Lord on stools, like one would be if they misbehaved in school. As I watched this, I was within saying, they tried to have an upper seat and the Master had them go to a lower one. Every time I seen this vision, this was my thoughts and they were wrong, though I did not know it at the time. As time went on I finally understood it, in that though they were being punished, it was left up to me to forgive them. So when I understood this, I told the Lord that I forgave them and asked for them to be allowed to the table.
    The vision was correct, but it was my interpretation of the vision that was wrong in the beginning, and a stern warning to not take my eyes off or close my ears to Him again. Since I have not had the vision again, I sense that the latter understanding was correct.

  148. Thank you sister Teshuva,

    What was revealed to you in the visionary dream and that you later understood, speaks strongly of our Communion Covenant with the Lord and our fellow Christians. We as Christians, born of faith in the Life Blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have entered into God’s New Covenant through the Life of our Savior that was and is within the Blood that was shed on Calvary. The Spirit of God gives testimony of the New Covenant Blood that He is One with. That Holy Covenant Life Blood is full of Love and mercy to the merciful sinner, but even in God’s Love and mercy, He is The Father that is also set strongly in His correction of the the unrepentant, bitter and unforgiving sinners that have entered God’s saving Covenant through faith. In our own self righteousness, we do not understand what is happening to us.

    Following the Lord’s prayer, Jesus gives instructions for our understanding: For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:  But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matthew 6:14-15)

    My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him:  For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.  If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the Father chastens not?  But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. (Hebrews 12:5-8)

    Judge not that you be not judged. For with judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with what judgment you hand out it shall be returned to you again. (See Matthew 7:1-5)

    The ones sitting on stools were in God’s Covenant, but indeed were as children in God’s correction corner, having made themselves to be unfit to sit at the Table. It is important for all of us to forgive, and in so doing, we release all offending parties into God’s hands, so that He may chasten His chosen according to His justice, done in His Love and Mercy.

    I’ve been in the corner,
    Robert Glenn

  149. I’m kind of changing the topic here but feel to share something which I’ve just seen this afternoon as I went to Wikipedia – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_revival – and this is it…

    I’ve seen this before in terms of what the “new” will be but never in terms of the “old” in terms of when God moves in Revival…

    My definition of Revival is when the Holy Spirit Inhabits cities, or nations or even the entire world with His Presence and convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement and I include the Church in this definition as His Presence, His Imminent and Close Presence, convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgement also in encouraging us to continue on in our faith in Him and becoming more and more and more like Him in our lives…

    My definition of Revival is where the Church acts together like the Church is meant to act…

    Every member is honoured as every member is meant to be honoured…

    Every member is recognised as every member is meant to be recognised and we all move in the gifts and motivations which the Lord has given us in one accord and for His Glory Alone…

    Every work of God will require some structure in terms of the way it is executed by the Holy Spirit but this structure will be seen to have been “wrought (or brought about) by God” as we see the way that He will “bring us together” from all around the world to complete His Work and His Will in our lives…

    I suppose Revival to me is what happens in people’s hearts when the Holy Spirit comes near to them and they are given by the Holy Spirit the ability to respond to His Drawing on their lives…

    To experience Awakening and Salvation…

    To experience Awakening into an understanding of their lost and destitute condition without Him – without their Saviour Jesus Christ…

    Salvation – in the Blood of Jesus (the free Grace of God by Faith) – “Christ our Passover has been Sacrificed”…

    Consecration – a giving over of themselves to His Purposes and Plans for their lives…

    To me to experience this – a whole city “out” under the conviction of the Holy Spirit or a whole city “lost” in Praise and Adoration towards their Lord who has just saved them – is the Greatest Testimony to the Greatness and Power of God that there is – or that there could be…

    Such was the case with the city of Ninevah under Jonah’s preaching and the city was spared Divine Judgement…

    That, I believe, was the Greatest city-wide Revival which we read of in scripture (there was another one in the time of Josiah in Judah but I believe that the Revival which occured in Ninevah was even more remarkable and possibly wide spread)…

    It will come again…

    It will not just be one city but many cities which will experience the Power of God as He Descends upon them and Presences Himself in their city in such Power that all in the city know that He is there…

    He will Presence Himself and the city will know that He is Drawing them to Himself and they will respond in giving themselves to Him for Salvation…

    Praise You Jesus, Thank You Father, Thank You Lord, Thank You Holy Spirit…

    What I really wanted to share in this post is that I’ve seen this process of Revival in the spirit and what I’ve seen is a Supernatural “Drawing Together” of the Saints of God by the Holy Spirit to perform the works which He has appointed for them in this season – which will soon be upon us…

    In this season there will be many, many, Saints of God who will be released from their “waiting” and will be thrust forth into the Harvest Field, for truly the Harvest is Plentiful but the Labourers are few – but there will be many, many, labourers released into the Harvest Field when this occurs and different to many past Revival moves where one man, or two men or a very few number of men have been used by the Lord – we will see in this move a multitude of men and women and boys and girls raised up by the Lord concurrently to go out into His Harvest Field and complete the work which He has called them to do and as they go they will find others who have been Supernaturally Directed by the Holy Spirit to do likewise – given exactly the same call and direction as they have been and they will work together in confirmation and in unity with these other ones to complete the work which the Lord has for them to do…

    They will know that He has called them together and they will glory in the Power of God for bringing confirmation that they are in His will and fulfilling His call on their lives…

    I see many, many, people going “all out” for Christ in this generation, “all out” for Christ and for His Glory, this will be known as the “groundswell” of the Church towards Her Lord…

    There will be a “groundswell” of the Church towards Her Lord and instead of remembering the personalities or the men or the women whom the Lord has worked upon the “groundswell” of the Church will be remembered as each part of the Body performs what it has been instructed to perform by the Holy Spirit and the Whole appears from Heaven as a Mighty Symphony for the Glory of God – in Perfect Order and in Perfect Harmony for the Glory of God…

    That is what this Revival – the Coming Revival – will be remembered for in the annals of Heaven – a coming together of the Entire Body of Christ on earth under the Headship and Directorship of the Holy Spirit with Jesus Christ Glorified and God the Father given the Dignity and Respect that He is so Rightly Due in the Name of Jesus Christ our Lord and for His Glory, Amen and Amen…

  150. God creates a Sanctuary Home for His Fallen Chrildren….Dragon interfers starts a fire…..the children of God commit to putting out the fire because they understand the fire will destroy their home. God fills the buckets with His Holy Power (the only thing that can put out the fire..WATER). They are successful and the success goes to their heads….they start looking towards Man…. not God. Looking towards their organization of the bucket brigade, assigning importance to themselves, singing songs of praise towards their efforts…failing to understand that it was the WATER that put out the fire….without that WATER all their efforts would be for nought….and it should have been towards the WATER that they heaped their praises….remaining humble and leadable in God’s capable hands. We should never fall into the trap that the WATER only works when it is placed in the bucket….try to restrict the WATER for our own purposes. We take it within us and it restores life, it waters the plants and the animals so they grow, it is in the very air we breath. The WATER is below and above the separating firmament which is Heaven. All things alive are dependent on that WATER….and that WATER will achieve it’s purpose…with or without the help of man. We should never try to confine it for just our purposes…..or our understanding of it…..GOD’s plans include fallen man…but goes so far beyond our immediate circumstances in this world. We should be eternally greatful that God allows us to swim in His WATERS, but we must always remember that it is ALL His, none of it is Ours….it is a GIFT, undeserved. We should go where the WATER takes us, being ever watchful along the way to opportunities that God provides for us to help His people. Our duty is to worship Him, and we do that by our LOVE expressed in our deeds.

    I felt an understanding of something the other day…a lesson arranged by God…as He does to all of us in our daily life. I tend to the garden, which is fenced off to protect that which is growing there. I have several dogs. (I protect my garden from them because they don’t understand that pursuing their interest of digging for that mole may destroy one of the plants I am nourishing in the garden.) When I leave the house to go tend the garden, they all flock around for their attention and praise and to show their adoration for me. When I go into the garden area and close the gate….all but one of the dogs leaves and goes about their business…resting in the shade or sleeping in their favorite nap place, pursuing doggy interests. There is one dog who stays at the gate, no matter how long I am gone. I know he truly loves and adores me and wants to be with me. That is Cowboy,…the most active of all the dogs…(a miniture Australian Shepard) but everytime I look at the gate, (sometimes hours later) there he is…waiting for me….watching my movements with his eyes….even during the hottest days…with his tongue panting….as there is not shade at the gate.

    I know all the dogs love me when I am available…..but which dog will wait for me, long for me, has no greater interest than to be with me….which one will endure until I come back out of that gate?

  151. Graham Jun 11th 2012

    I believe members of the Body of Christ will be brought together by the Holy Ghost and the love between them will be seen and will draw people to the Lord Jesus Jesus.
    Having said that, I believe the western church and those leaders controlling its the false teachings and prophecies have a different agenda.
    It has become obvious what these false teachers and prophets are doing and they will continue to do so deceiving those within the christian church. The stories they make up about signs and wonders and how to become rich and a wealthy have become “old hat” and yet people are still being taken in and fooled by fables being told in getting attention in order to fleece the flock.
    For those who wish to listen to the likes of Mike Murdock, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn and Morris Cerullo can do so in expecting the world wide revival that has been on the cards for many years, but has never happened.
    These same people talk about political correctness and how christians are being persecuted elsewhere yet do not apply persecution for themselves, has been just a ploy as a method of distraction for them being investigated and how their financial empires have been built.
    To say that these leaders are part of the Body of Christ is incorrect and misleading. That is one reason why the christian church is in turmoil and disarray into thinking that these people have a part to play in preaching their interpretation of Christ’s message, teachings and doctrines which are false and unbiblical. To say otherwise, is a misconception what Salvation and Redemption is all about.
    In taking the premise that they are charatans reveals what they are really and christians who should say so and not hide under a cloak of anonymity. For if they are masquerading as wolves in sheeps clothing, the Body of Christ should know about them and be warned.
    Believers have different functions and talents to be used in the Body of Christ and should be allowed to do so. But within the western church this is controlled by a few who call themselves leaders with so many self appointed.
    The problem I face in my area is who are my brothers and sisters in the Lord within the established churches because there is very little evidence of any unity of the known churches. They appear to be separate, confined to their church buildings, and fail as with their leaderships, to reach out to others. And that includes the lost!
    Are we not servants of the King? Do we actually believe in biblical doctrine or do we just take things for granted, as with worshipping God Almighty?
    It needs a change of heart and direction if revival is to tarry. I do believe that repentance is what God Almighty is calling not only for the christian church but to nations. Otherwise it will be His judgement which is already falling upon countries who have no time for Him and His instructions.
    I would suggest that those who claim to be following the Lord Jesus Christ go into the world to preach the Gospel message while they can. For more strenuous and difficult times lie ahead for those who are His.
    Kindly comment on what I have shared and lays upon my heart.
    The Lord bless you all!

  152. Kevin; a question regarding one of your posts. I am confused. You stated: “…..however they are unlikely to listen unless they see the evidence through us that Christ has called and empowered us for this work.”

    Those who are doing the listening….why are they seeking evidence through you or any man, as to whether they should believe the words being spoken, if the words being spoken are God’s? Should not they be seeking their evidence through dilegent reading of the Bible? Does not God take the word spoken (IF IT IS HIS) no matter who speaks it, and touch the heart within the listener….that core that God created….and demonstrate that it is TRUTH? Of course a tare will not have that kind of heart that can be touched by the Word of God.

    What evidence does man seek with man’s eyes?

    I am reminded of Paul…who killed Christians…so it must not be the evidence of the past of the speaker….correct?

    Paul could have accomplished nothing….if God had not paved the way….if the timing was not within God’s plan and purpose for the time. So the accomplishment can’t really be the evidence of the man. Correct? All that is accomplished is to the credit of God. God is not weak…..He has told us His Plan within the Bible. I trust in God, not man….why is that offensive to some?

    I am reminded of some in the charismatic movement where the woman leaders make up their faces like whores, and the men and women live in wealthy mansions from their prostitution of God’s Word. They speak many words…some of the words are from God. My heart witnesses to those words. Those words can still grow within a person if God chooses and bring forth pure fruit from His word…..not the rotten fruit that the speaker of the word has within their soul…and will be held accountable for because they prostituted God for their own selfish purposes.

    God’s Word exists on it’s own. It was designed for man. Those who hear the Word and who are called will respond to the Word, not to the trappings of man that surround the word given. God’s Word is a treasure, a coin of great wealth….who many use for their own gain…..but temporary is that gain.

    I see the falsness within these “pimps”….but I don’t throw away the word because it came from their mouths. I just don’t support them and I speak out against the falseness….because that kind of falsness can make the weaker christian turn away and throw the baby out with the bath water down the road, if they did not take the word and seek the Lord within the Bible…as does my dog Cowboy…seek me, above all else.

    If man is looking towards man for signs and evidence, instead of looking towards God…HONOR AND TRUTH….than they are still not looking where they should be. Why do humans look toward other humans for their comfort and affirmations…when we have a GOD that is so much greater and beyond what humans can offer?

    I look for the GOD within the humans….the HONOR and TRUTH of the way they try to live their lives in all aspects…revealed and hidden.

    Is that the evidence that you are talking about?

    Are not we all called to do God’s Work in everything that we do? None of us are perfect at it…..thank God for His mercy and grace.

    The “MEEK” shall inherit the Earth. Perhaps it is time for the Meek Church….the one that will survive what is coming and will be like the humble ant…unoticed working out the commands that are written within his DNA/Heart for the betterment and survival of the Body/Colony. That inheritence is the Mellinium, and the earth that comes after the Mellinium….when all men are no longer man, but total Truth and Honor, Men of God.

    I eagerly wait at the gate for my Master, with my silly little ignorant limited doggy mind, (my heart bursting with overwhelming love for His Perfection) to do His bidding. I trust in Him totally…even tho I cannot understand or grasp All that He Was, IS, and IS TO BE!

    If I am eagerly pursuing a rabbit and He calls me back…I will turn on a dime and return. Or if He wants me to continue to chase and catch the rabbit….I will be delighted. It is All what He wants. Just like my little Cowboy dog….I don’t understand my Master’s ways, but He is capable of letting me know what He wants….I just need to obey at every little point along the Way….He will make it clear.

    Robert Glenn…..I agree with your interpretation of that marathon runner dream, especially the man dressed in white being the Spirit of God.


  153. Thank you Claudia; and obviously so was the child, one with the Spirit, that the man slammed the door on, with in his own strength.

    But to amplify our flowing thoughts from your previous post, the Church people are the buckets that need to be filled. Certainly not empty buckets, nor half filled buckets, but overflowing buckets that are splashing the flow of the Spirit of the Water of God upon whoever they come in contact with. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: Thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever. If we are only half filled, then we have only enough for our selves and no one else, and if empty, well, we had better run quickly to the Well Spring to get our brim filled and overflowing.

    Most certainly the enemy creates the fires, but those who go frequently to the Well Source of the Spirit of the Water, will never run dry. The Spirit of God is the Water that flows from the throne room of God, and without that Water of the Spirit, we are like dry tender boxes waiting to burst into heretical flames, and who will put them out but those who are full and overflowing of the Living Water that Christ gives.

    The Lord God and King prepared the Table Himself, so that His people may fully feast in the provisions of His Body given in Love, and there together, we are to fully drink in of His Salvation Gift of Life that He shed for us in His Blood. But if you refuse to partake of His Table then you will not be full. Or, if we come into His Presence without the Garments of Faith then quite naturally we will be excluded from God’s sanctifying nourishing provisions of His Life. In any case we will remain empty of the Life of the Lord, and only filled with the emptiness of self.

    If the church you are attending has allowed the enemy within to create fires, then of certainty the Worship Table of the Lord is not presented in faith, or is a religious after thought of no significance, and so our buckets are not full and overflowing. Then it is up to you to be diligent to have your worshipful service to God in Spirit and Truth at homes with family and friends, and wait in prayer and thanksgiving, so that you can be full and overflowing of God’s Spirit. With the Spirit of God clothing the believers hearts and minds in the full armament of God, and having been armed with the Truth of the Spirit and holding the sharp two-edged Sword of the Spirit in hand, now it is possible to enter the burning church to putout the fire of the enemy with the True Water of the Word of God.

    If the church you are attending does not fellowship in the Lord’s gracious Table in the fullness of His Life giving provisions of His Body and Blood, then move to another that does, or again receive that which is lacking, at homes with family and or friends. If any church adulterates the Body and Blood of our Lord with words of unbelief, then stay and partake of the Spirits provisions, but do so with faith in the Word of God that can not fail, and be a testimony of the flowing grace that God’s choice provisions creates within you.

    Robert Glenn

  154. look at the birds of the air Jun 11th 2012

    The mother apostate church is near death, dying, and nothing but dead works.
    The Lords people are the opposite of the dead apostate -harlot church.
    Yesterday I had a dream. showing exactly what I am sharing above.

    I saw two large hands the white robe coming down to each side of the wrists , they were opened, the hands.
    I saw the Sun shining brightly between the two hands above. Below the hands and Sun shining brightly were pure white steps, wide and after so many steps it would flatten out at the top as if to stop or stand for a bit before going on. these wide steps were not steep, just a continuing upward. the closer I got the Sun shined more and more brightly, until finally it was so bright I could not see what was there just a brilliance of light.
    (If but just one person understands,
    Praise be to GOD.)

    The dream changed, I was in a large bathroom, in a stall, I had the word of God with me. It seemed as if I stayed for quite a long while in the stall of the bathroom. I than finally came out walking down a hall with the word of God.

    their was a small type of store, their were no doors, open for anyone to come in and out, to shop, etc look around.
    I was in the store and a younger woman was coming to take over my shift. I had not used the cash register, nor did I sell. ( I did not come to sell the gospel nor to make a profit from the word of God.

    the younger woman was rude, snotty and acted as though she was above me, though just another worker and she was about to use the cash register- to sell, to profit from her works.

    All of a sudden a Father and his Son came up to me, the Father knelt down and took my word and placed it upon His head. I stood before Him and embraced the word and the Father with love in his eyes enjoyed the embracing of. I than touched his small beard lovingly.

    He than stood up and took the word and ran with it as if along the side of the store, their were woods like and as I watched He came back up and handed it back to me. More people were now coming in as my shift was coming to an end. I asked to see the schedule. She said last moth 3 people were missing.
    I knew it was The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
    I said it wasnt me. I began to cry as I was going to tell her that my mother was near death, dying- the mother apostate church. I stopped crying quickly as I knew I was not to weep.
    While the younger people came in they sat in chairs watching and making comments one to another, whispering. I walked past them after I saw I was no longer scheduled to work- the time is over for warnings. I yelled aloud- You Afflicters and You Religious. time for me to go home and READ THE WORD!

    The “invitation” to the high calling in Christ Jesus is given to all, it is an upward journey therefore the road traveled will have brief “resting areas” to gather strength as one continues the assent toward the top to burst into the glorious light.

    The bathroom represents the place of cleansing, spent time in the Word (prayer/repentance/cleansing/forgiveness of thy soul), now the younger generations (by their actions) only spent time to “refresh their outward appearance” this is evidenced by their use of the cash register (buy & sell the works of the gospel.

    I did not partake of this action even though it was “clearly offered and expected” as i was scheduled to work (labour in the gospel) …… therefore, NOW I am no longer scheduled to work (not needed in the “Apostate so called Church” as I did not engage in the selling of the Gospel of our Lord for earthly profits).

    The Father and the Son …….enough said!
    The Father knows our true heart, the Son is the “Living Word of God, our Savior! Our God is and Awesome God who we can reach out and touch and be touched of Him, for HE is ALIVE!

    The Son of man is the Word, therefore He walks before us, He sets the path which leads unto the Wilderness. The “little store” is “the break-away Internet false church in the wilderness” types that are the children of the “dying mother American Church” as both are built with hands to serve their leaders who are wolves of the forest feeding upon the sheeple. These “churches/forums” do not Glorify God Almighty.
    the Lord through His Spirit “rebuked” the harlots with the Word of God and in the name of God, not my own name.

    The Lord is saying to me loud and clear the time dealing with the “Internet forums” is over; yet thy labors shall continue as He leads me!

    I never came to sell the word of God everywhere the Lord sent me, I went in obedience unto Him. the majority doesnt hear the Spirit of the Lord, nor do they even recognize the true people of God. They recognize religious leaders and call them their friends. Goodness, God has a better plan and purpose for those whom Hear His voice!!
    Nor did I want money and gifts. For my reward is in heaven, my treasure is the Lord Jesus Christ! You know what I get from thinking about all this, just like the Israelites , the people would NOT LISTEN, but devised their own ways and planned their own paths
    and walked in their own counsels- flesh of man profits nothing, nothing, nothing!

  155. New International Version (©1984)
    No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
    New Living Translation (©2007)
    (Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.)

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

    You could not have seen The Father , and sitting on the toilet with a bible is no image from The Lord God.You say The Father knelt before you? (never going to happen)and took your word and put it on His head? This is deception at its worst, sorry but you realy need to humble yourself before God and seek The Lord Jesus.

  156. look at the birds of the air Jun 12th 2012

    For one thing you just added to it by saying i was sitting on the toilet…. i did not say that, nor did i see what i was doing. This is a spiritual picture, and your looking at it through the carnal by twisting what you perceive it to be, for it is spiritually discerned not fleshly as you have just proven by the above!!! The word of God is the Word- He is the head, but you cannot understand because you reacted by your flesh. The flesh wars against the spirit!

  157. Teshuva Jun 12th 2012

    Birds of the air,
    Love your dream.
    I kind of have a hope for the whorish church.
    I liken her to Mary Magdalene. Here in if the mother is dying we know the power of the Father to resurrect to life again, as with Mary who was delivered of the unclean spirits.
    Whorish represents desire and ruled by that desire, and is fleshy and soulish, where Holy Matrimony is one unto the Lord.
    Man lying with man/learning from man, will not produce the Holy Seed for new birth from above to come about.

  158. look at the birds of the air Jun 12th 2012

    Just as the mother is symbolic of the apostate- mother church, so the man and the son in the dream are symbolic of the Father and the Son. I did not see them as they are now, seated in the heavenlies. Gods word is attainable, within reach and we are to embrace His word, to love His word. You went and ran off and looked by the physical, not so, it is a symbolic picture being shown to those with eyes to see, SPIRITUALLY!!!

  159. Do you claim that you saw The Father and He knelt before you ?The Lord will never kneel before you or anyone.No one has seen The Father except The Son.

    On the toilet or not the image of learning God’s Word in the bathroom stall is just not from Him.

  160. Teshuva Jun 12th 2012

    Jacob saw God and lived. Gen. 32:30
    Scriptures say that the pure in heart will see God.

  161. look at the birds of the air Jun 12th 2012

    God bless you Teshuva, you are blind and cannot see Jeffm, or you would know the symbolic of what was shown. You do not have the understanding so you try to reason within your own understanding. You try to make is sound as if he bowed before me, your in great error.
    It was about His word HIS WORD! the word of GOD! You may say anything you think, as i will no longer debate, argue or carry on in such a manner.

  162. Teshuva Jun 12th 2012

    Is6:1 he also saw the Lord and His train filled the temple.
    Acts 7:55 Stephen full of the Holy Spirit also saw the glory of God and Yeshua standing at the right hand of God.

  163. Scripture does not contradict scripture. We can see God the Son,but only The Son can see The Father.I quoted the words of Jesus above, do you believe Him or not?

    Blind and can not see is a reference to people rejecting what Jesus said, your self promoting dream is far from being The Word of God.

  164. Claudia,

    You asked a question of me regarding about what I said in the following paragraph . God working through us, along with the evidence of t

    “Andrew for example you and I could go out well intentioned , calling people together , however they are unlikely to listen unless they see the evidence through us that Christ has called and empowered us for this work.”

    The ” evidence ” I was referring to was the signs and wonders that accompany the preaching of the word, which show that God has called us to the work an is working through us, along with nature and character of Christ which show the fruit of the spirit, all of which I stated in my original comment show that
    ” Christ has called and empowered us for this work.”

  165. Claudia

    You asked a question of me regarding about what I said in the following paragraph ;

    “Andrew for example you and I could go out well intentioned , calling people together , however they are unlikely to listen unless they see the evidence through us that Christ has called and empowered us for this work.”

    Claudia – the ” evidence ” I was referring to are the signs and wonders that accompany the preaching of the word, which show that God has called us to the work and is working through us, which along with nature and character of Christ show the fruit of the spirit, all of which I stated in my original comment show that
    ” Christ has called and empowered us for this work.”

  166. Simon B Jun 12th 2012

    I am one of those who have been disfellowshipped, disgarded , and sent to Coventry because I dared to question teaching and the vision of the church minister and the eldership of what they called to be revival and their methods of achieving this.
    In looking at the many comments made, it appears that those taking part in the debate and in quoting the scriptures, they are just tossing and towing their opinions about in the storm of contention and how to achieve this revival they are yearning. Not much has changed since leaving the established church which I was a member of and christians on the surface will never agree over what lies before the christian church and where it is going.
    Much has been said to find a church which is suitable and where folk can particpate without conditions. I must declare this has not been so because of the church system that operates. Yes, I can go to any church service and sit for an hour and a half of ornganised religion but this has not been uplifting or Christ exonerated and Him exhalted because of men controlling the meetings. The clux of the matter has been to revel the works of man than what the Holy Spirit instructs. Throughout the church services claims are made that God is doing this and that when it is man controlling the outcome.
    So the expectations of chasing signs and wonders and those who are able to tickle the ears of christians makes this an era of expecting revival to the christian church. I have to say that this will not be and if those purporting revival on the horizon will have to wait for a long time.
    When christians who now walk on the other side of the road to avoid talking to you and make excuses that they are too busy with religious matters to share anything about their walk with Jesus and to encourage brethren outside of their church gathering, then it is no wonder people of world treat christianity as a dated religion having no purpose for the 21st century being obsolete and obscure.
    The only time when christians decide that they need one another of what denominational persuasion is when they become margalised and persecuted and face death for their faith. This may be happening outside the western hemisphere but at the moment the western church with its huffing and puffing to secure itself by not offending other religions due to ineptness and walking away from biblical doctrine. For western christians prefer to play a game of what I call to be churchianity from within.
    Only the Grace of God can save those seeking Him and His salvation though the Lord Jesus Christ. That is by repentance and saying sorry to our Creator. Everything else is just religion and spiritual phenomenon such as the occult practices being shown on so called christian tv channels which have become a tool to make money and to fleece viewers watching under the disguise that they are being given special treatment and a visitation of the Holy Spiirit.
    One does not need to pay your way in getting into the Kingdom of God by sowing financial seeds to get God’s blessing. Nor does one has to be indoctrinated by erronous and unbiblical claptrap by those proclaimed to be teachers and prophets who are neither.
    My prayer is that repentance be given its priority in the christian church but alas I do not see this forth coming because of other man made distractions.
    In looking at the questions that have been made by several, all that has been seen is the quoting of certain scriptures at one another in response with the actual questions and comments not being answered.
    Perhaps they have no answers to what is happening in the real world and how the modern western christian church is tearing itself apart.
    Care to comment on my comments if people so wish.
    For maybe I am wrong in expression myself and to face what lies ahead in the End Times for folk appear to be too afaid to talk about it.

  167. Claudia – the example you have given of Paul is what I am saying, for when Paul was called to the work in Gods timing, the signs and wonders accompanied Paul in his work for God .

    Prior to this Paul as Saul was a pharisee with great knowledge of the scriptures , yet as you have stated he was killing Christians , and this showed he wasn’t in step with Gods plans and purposes.

  168. William Jun 12th 2012

    I have experienced similar to that of Simon and that is after leaving the Watchower Society which I broke ties with. The local church which I attended could not cope with me with my questions and eventually gave me a wide berth.
    Glad that I found a house church whose members helped me tremendously.
    I want and expect real christianity from the body of Christ and not lip say and pretentions of those who claim to be christians. For going to church does not make you a christian.
    There are quite a number of folk like me who are seeking the truth but I am afraid to say that religion plays a major part on what to believe and not to believe. I find that many christian churches are in dispute over doing so hence no unity and keeping themselves to themselves.
    This is what I have to endure in keeping and contending the faith.
    If they cannot cope with me, how can the christian church cope with this so coming revival, if it ever happens?
    And I do support the notion that repentance should be on the lips of every believer who follow the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ who is the only one who saved me from the path that I was treading. Praise the Lord!

  169. I understand what you’re saying Kevin and I agree with you… :-)

    These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover. So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed. (Mark 16:17-20a NASB)

  170. Simon B
    I am sorry you were “dis-fellowshipped” I have now idea what for nor do i want/need to know.
    I can assure you that God is on His throne and is busy doing the same as always – part of which is to bless His people as a *sign and witness to the lost and disillusioned.
    *see Kevin and Andrew above.


    I can tell you of a church in Kenya where the church membership was doubled from 1,000 to over 2,000 after a sixteen year old was raised up instantly from being a cripple unable to walk!
    God designed the church as a place for Saints – not sinners! This church is a haven for sinners to be translated into Saints! Saints are counselled to live a righteous, sin free life, be responsible, no longer blame the devil or fellow man for everything, warned not to sin again! The Church is not to become a worldly organisation involved in debate, politics, theology, philosophy et al. The Church is a Theocracy with Christ (The Anointed) as its head!
    Many churches have been lead astray through Pastors being subject to a board of directors who hold the purse strings, can hire and fire, and therefore dictate doctrine, instead of the Pastor being subject to the Jesus, the Word of God !
    Others are so obsessed with raising funds or publishing futuristic prognostications, that all else is out the window.
    The above does not mean that there are not genuine churches. Evil only counterfeits the real deal. A counterfeit $45 bill is easily recognised !
    Being excomunicated may be a good thing for you, look around, see what you can find! If you are genuine, be a testimony. walk in the Spirit and you may gather a group around you that the Lord will bless.
    I am part of a world wide church, that began in the 1940’s when one man received the Holy Spirit and made a stand against unsound teaching> Back then He was locked out of things because, when doctrine, (teaching) was on the line, he wanted to refer to chapter and verse to establish what sound doctrine was!
    Pr Michael