“TEA PARTY” – WHAT a REACTION! – Andrew Strom.

I knew there might be an “ugly” reaction to my post last week about the Tea Party, but even so I was pretty distressed by the personal attacks and nasty remarks. I was saddened too by the many people who wanted to turn the whole thing into a ‘POLITICAL’ debate, when the entire point of my article was the ‘SPIRITUAL’ aspect – about how aggressive “Political Activism” can ruin our Christian witness.

People accused me of being “Anti-American”, though I have said
many times how much I love that nation, having lived there for four
years and ministered to Americans for 16 years. It is my love for
that country – as well as my love for Jesus – that compels me to
speak out. I sense a terrible ugliness growing in the “Christian
Politics” scene – and it seems to be getting worse. I truly fear for
the future of Christianity in the USA if this ugliness continues.

Others accused me of getting my views from the “liberal media”.
Actually, I am on the Tea Party mailing List and I get almost all
my info direct from conservative Christians and Tea Party people.
That is what makes it so sad, so ugly and so unchristian.

Just today I got the latest email from “TeaParty.org”. The headline
reads- “LIMBAUGH: ‘OBAMA HATES THIS COUNTRY’. And further
down we read – “Tea Party To Expose ‘America’s Fraud President’
To 1 Million Households! – Donate now!”

Can anybody tell me why Christians should be involved in anything
so ugly and un-Christlike? -And this is just “mild” nastiness
compared to the really ugly “Anti-Obama” emails that other
Christians send me. I must ask – what kind of ‘Christianity’ is this?
It is one thing to “disagree” with a President. It is quite another
to participate in a giant campaign of slander, muck-raking, gossip
and ugliness against him. Is this “Christian” behaviour in any way?

That is what I mean about the damage this is doing to the Christian
witness in the USA. The evangelical Christians are getting a
reputation for being harsh, nasty, aggressive and mean-spirited.
Where is Christ in all of this? Why are we getting caught up in
‘POLITICAL’ battles when the true problems in America are
“SPIRITUAL”? Why are we fighting with the “arm of the flesh”?

The Bible is very clear – “We wrestle NOT against flesh and blood,”
but against principalities and powers in high places. (Eph 6:12).
And as we saw last week, Jesus was also clear: “My kingdom is
not of this world. If my kingdom was of this world, THEN would
my servants fight” (Jn 18:36). So the reason Christ’s servants are
not to “FIGHT” using the ‘arm of the flesh’ is that we belong to a
different kingdom. We are not supposed to be battling and agitating
and plotting to gain control of this earthly one!

So why the big “campaign”? At the end of the day, it doesn’t even
achieve anything for the true spiritual state of the country. Only a
Christian Revival can do that. Only a true “SPIRITUAL” Awakening
of gospel power and prayer. Nothing ‘Political’ can make the slightest
difference to the inner state of people’s hearts. A “mass invasion”
of God’s Holy Spirit is the only thing that can do it.

So STOP the ugly ‘Political’ activism! Stop getting distracted by
“fleshly” battles! And start focusing on what really matters – the
desperate need for a true ‘Spiritual’ Awakening! (-Which cannot
be advanced in any way through Politics. It is a whole different
kingdom).

And please, turn Limbaugh and Fox News OFF! They are simply
making capital off winding up the Conservatives and making them
madder and madder. -Not Christian at all. Switch these people OFF!

In closing, I want to apologize to anyone who was offended by my
last article. I love America as a nation very deeply, but I love God
and true Christianity even more. And it is this that compels me
to write the way I do – even though I know I will get “bashed” for it.
My sincere apologies to anyone who was offended.

-Please comment on this article below-

God bless you all. – Andrew Strom.

Posted in Articles by Andrew on July 17th, 2012 at 2:25 pm.

354 comments

354 Replies

  1. Ibelieve Jul 17th 2012

    ………….And please, turn Limbaugh and Fox News OFF! They are simply
    making capital off winding up the Conservatives and making them
    madder and madder. -Not Christian at all. Switch these people OFF!……………………………………………………

    I personally think we should turn off anything to do with any of the media. They do not have Christianity’s or the Lord’s best interest at heart.

    Your right here Andrew as Christians we should be pursuing the things that are Kingdom oriented. The things that are Spiritual involve a cost.

    He that finds his life in this world will lose it but he that loses his life in this world will find it. My paraphrase.

    This is saying that forsaking all in this life we find in Christ all the riches of His glory.

    Deep calls unto deep and God has a deeper purpose for Christians that does not involve making a life here. I cannot help but think that if our life is as a puff of smoke then compared to eternity nothing matters here but Christ and Him crucified.

    Presently most of the country here is going through a drought, crops are withering and they are now saying the price of groceries are going to start getting higher. There are several large corn fields that I pass everyday that are already turned brown from the heat.

    The government will not be able to stop what is coming on the earth. Sin is running rampant in America and is being fueled by Hollywood, the media, etc.

    Its time brethren to reexamine ourselves in the light of Christ and His word.

  2. Foolhardy Fred Jul 17th 2012

    I agree with you totally on this one Andrew. I believe has summed it up perfectly ” Its time brethren to reexamine ourselves in the light of Christ and His word”.

  3. I agree with you, Andrew. Politics and Christianity don’t mix, on the left or the right. The Pharisees were the religious politicians of Jesus’ day and He obviously did not approve of their approach to the problems of the day. If we are Christian, then we live in this world but we are not of this world.

    The battle ultimately is spiritual not political. This does not mean that Christians should not vote or run for office if they are called to do so (my city has a Christian mayor), but politics are not the Christian answer to anything, ever. Better to pick up the scriptures than turn on the media.

  4. I will be unsubscribing today, Andrew.
    We are to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and in the US we are Caesar – government of the people, by the people, for the people. It is our Biblical duty to be informed and active citizens. I agree we should do it with Christlikeness, but we don’t ignore it or excuse the evil deeds of those who represent us. While you have had some good points, many of your remarks on this subject have been both uninformed and offensive at times. You have become not worth the time it takes to read. Sorry!
    I do wish you well!

  5. Andrew Jul 17th 2012

    Sadly I cannot agree that we are “Caesar”, just because we get to vote. By all means vote as you feel to. I am not opposed to that at all. It is the ugly and slanderous “Political Fighting” that I believe is unchristian.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  6. Nancy Fraley Jul 17th 2012

    *I know what you are saying, Andrew. I do see Fox News on my computer to see what is happening. I listen to news on Christian radio.I am not going to get into a fight over politics. I have not had a TV for many years because it is not worth it.
    There may be no change in office in November.America has not repented!!! I vote, but am not going to get into a lather about it all!!!

  7. Donna Hansen Jul 17th 2012

    I believe that Christians get very angry because Governments role is not educating our children to be immoral. It is not to legalize the murder of babies. We need to be the salt of the earth, we need to stand for what’s right. We should not be paying tax money that is used to do the things God hates. Just pray, you say? Well, we could just pray for the unsaved too and never lift a finger to witness..and will our indifference to these things make us a good witness? Thank God for those who speak out for
    the righteousness of God. I wonder what a person should do if they witness someone torturing a child?
    Should they just pray and watch? Is it different if we can’t see the millions of babies who are being slaughtered?
    Also, should we just allow our children to be taught that
    they should live immoraly? It is a parents job to raise their children. We are only called to obey the law if it is
    in harmony with God’s word. And if we sit in our parlor and pray for the unsaved, that is a good thing, but we are to go into the highways and byways and WITNESS.

  8. Eliezer Jul 17th 2012

    I understand where you are coming from and see the need as you have done to speak out against this tea party.I also love America i have allot of family living there but the tea party is departing from the truth of how we are to live as believers.Thank you for speaking out i do hope that people will be loyal to the truth and see that you are not knocking America but speaking up for righteousness

  9. 4TruthinHeart Jul 17th 2012

    I do believe the scriptures have a very clear way of “judging” what we say, do or watch…Phil. 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy–meditate on these things. A good way to measure all of this. Andrew, I appreciate your desire not to offend anyone but, Jesus, Himself is called a “stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”. Obviously, this does not mean we should go around trying to offend others but sometimes the truth does just that. Keep looking up…our redemption draweth nigh!

  10. Eric Swensson Jul 17th 2012

    Andrew, you haven’t learned anything.

  11. Mary Burrows Jul 17th 2012

    Hi,
    I understand some of what you are saying. I come from a small town and Tea Party here is not interested in political parties. Only that those running believe in the constitution. They have had forums with all parties and let the candidates speak for themselves.

    I am not political minded but it is nice to know where people stand so I can vote with some intelligence.

    I do hardly agree against the hate mail that comes from Christians–I want the president out but that is what the voting system is about.

  12. The Sovereignty of God in Civil Rule

    Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, John Roberts’ surprising position on the Health Care bill needs to be considered in the light of God’s sovereignty in matters of civil rule.

    The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh. – Exodus 9:12a

    God is the Judge: He puts down one and exalts another. – Psalm 75:7

    1. The preparations of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
    2. All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the spirits.
    3. Commit your works to the Lord, and your thoughts will be established.
    4. The Lord has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. – Proverbs 16:1-4

    A man’s heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps. – Proverbs 16:9

    Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. – Romans 13:1

    There will be a lot of energy expended over the next several days as people vent. Conspiracy theories will run wild and confirm the fears of many who are overwhelmed by what all this will mean.

    Believers should not be alarmed by such matters. We can trust God with our future.

    “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you,” says the Lord, “thoughts of peace and not evil, to give you a future and a hope.” – Jeremiah 29:11

    And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. – Romans 8:28

    Bottom line, God gives a nation the government it deserves, not necessarily the government it wants. More government control is consistent with self-centered irresponsibility, independence, and entitlement mentalities. God knows what He is doing!

    Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. – 1 Timothy 2:1-2

    Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles. – 1 Peter 2:11-12a

  13. Peter Sharpe Jul 17th 2012

    Do not feel you need to apologise for causing “offense” by saying what is true.

    What is offensive to the EXTREME is the neo-fascist nationalism and violence that spews in torrents from the hearts of those who allegedly follow Christ.

    The degree to which authentic Kingdom discipleship has been supplanted by Babylonian counterfeits is frightening.

    I recommend reading Jacque Ellul’s “The subversion of Christianity” for a deeply insightful analysis of how what passes for christianity is actually in many cases directly and vehemently opposed to it and manifesting very contrary spiritual power.

  14. Deborah Jul 17th 2012

    Andrew, I agree, I hate anything to do with politics, I vote, but can say it really does not matter whom we vote for,Obama was bought and paid for to be there. things are going to happen that we just cannot change, we have to turn it all to God,He is in charge,Tea parties are just another excuse for people to be mean, the original tea party was Nothing like the ones today,

  15. Sherry Jul 17th 2012

    Brother Andrew,
    Thank you for sharing from your heart and I believe that what you are speaking is truth. The Lord spoke a word to me a few years ago – EMISSARY. Of course, I did not even know what it meant. Ambassador was the definition. We are ambassadors for the Lord Jesus Christ, how we act, how we react, how we speak, what we do, all represent Christ, who lives in us. We are not our own. We represent not the Kingdom of this World but we represent God’s Kingdom. God bless you and please continue sharing your thoughts when God leads you to. Love in and through Christ, sherry

  16. I agree with you on our attitudes as we look at political venues. But a “head in the sand” attitude was just what happened in Germany during WWII. If good men/women do not speak up than evil will prevail. Hitler’s henchmen believed that if you told a lie long enough eventually others will come to believe it. Jesus’ words were filled with grace, but it was also the truth.
    In our nation it is to be the government of the people, by the people and for the people. So we indeed are “Caesar” as we select those who will legislate. The term “ecclesia” is a political term saying that we are to be a people who brings forth God’s kingdom to earth, caring out His will, His way, with His character.

  17. Goodwordtoday Jul 17th 2012

    Andrew, by attacking the TEA Party specifically, you yourself turned it into a political and not a spiritual debate. You may as well just tell all the Christians to become Amish, because once politics is involved, it becomes a battle, and the lines between righteousness and evil get blurred.

    I don’t think you see the issue here – you have stepped into a hornet’s nest because you have singled out a political movement as being a Christian movement because there are conservative Christians attached to it. There are many, many MORE conservative Christians who are not attached to the TEA Party and there are millions of Christians who are liberal Democrats in this country and listening to the likes of Bill Maher. What about the ugly political attacks from liberal PAC organizations? How about the spiritual life of those Christians? Instead of singling out what you consider to be specifically conservative Christian movement, it would have behooved you to talk about the split in the American church which has been caused by a political divide.

    The problem is that we HAVE conservatives and liberals and there are Christians who are on both sides of that fence. And the American church reflects that split because of the worldview of conservatives and liberals is widely different. And that has been caused by politics. Spiritually the church should be ONE but it is splintered into many groups and the TEA Party is just one example of a POLITICAL cause that reflects a specific worldview that has grabbed hold of SOME conservative Christians.

    We’re not stupid – we understand that nastiness in the political arena is evil and un-Christlike but attacking a specific group and persons such as Limbaugh or any others is not very ecumenical.

    My point is that Christians in America aren’t all listening to the same radio station, you know? That radio station broadcasts from the throne of God. Not many are tuned in.

  18. There are two other news sources that I read — just to be aware of what’s being said — but I place in the same class as Limbaugh, Beck, Fox News, and Christian television in general — Newsmax and WND. None of these sources form my thinking but they do keep me informed of what others are thinking so I can carry on a reasonably intelligent conversation with them. I appreciate what you have shared, Andrew.

  19. I do think it is a good idea to restrict one’s activities in the political arena to simply indicating where there is untruth.
    That would apply to all concerned.
    We are somewhat like babes and it doesn’t really pay to get involved in the wolves’ discourse.

    As to turning off Fox News, I think you will probably find that American MSM (journolist anyone?) is well advanced in that very agenda.

  20. alexander lee Jul 17th 2012

    It is depressing to read the comments from so many utterly blind Christians. How could you not see the folly of trying to make Christ into a political force.

  21. Your email rebuke reminded me of a recent column by J.Lee Grady of Charisma magazine, in which he sadly commented that some of the “meanest” people he knew “spoke in Tongues”.
    When it comes to our words, we sometimes need rebuke, when, as Jesus reminded James and John in Luke 9:55, “Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.”

  22. alexander lee Jul 17th 2012

    “right wing” “left wing” same wicked bird.

  23. Nigel Bradley Jul 17th 2012

    Isn’t the truth that folks just can’t stand to be told – errrr…. anything realy?

    We’re all the same and we all hate it :-)

    Only THE most humble of folks will generally accept (or maybe just listen) to somebody else’s view.

    The thing is, our Father in Heaven is greatly offended by all sin and before we get all upset and start throwing rocks, we need to remember that He is the one offended because sin is mostly vertical.

    We have to understand that every idle word is being recorded and we will account for it one day and before the ‘righteous anger’ excuse is raised, PLEASE lets just be carefull. – for God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

    When the Lord Jesus comes back, he will be seen glorious in blazing fire …. seriously now, do you want to argue with Him?

    Love to you all

    Nigel from sunny England

  24. I agree with everything Don Atkin said.

  25. You are absolutely right! From friends in another state, all I get are anti-Obama emails and slanders. They don’t ask how we are or send an encouraging note since we lost our daughter last December. They are obsessed with these hate emails and some are not even true. They are passing on anything that is negative. I have thought that their Christian witness has diminished, especially to me, because they have not wanted to hear that our obligation is to pray for our government officials.
    Keep writing Andrew. It encourages us when others around us are critical because we don’t join the mob.

  26. Suzanne Jul 17th 2012

    Was it wrong for the pilgrims to leave Europe in order to establish a country in which they could worship the God of the Bible and not be subject to one state religion? Should they have just stayed at home and just submitted to the king and his rules?
    Thank goodness these brave souls decided to risk it all (lives and fortunes) to come to the shores of America and establish The United States. Under your belief, they should have just stayed in Europe and just submitted to the king.
    I think most American’s are upset with the realization that there are forces here that are attempting to destroy the freedoms that hundreds of thousands died for to give us. I do believe in prayer but think that in addition, we should also act. Witnessing to the lost is extremely important of course as is standing up to those who believe in a different direction for our country.
    Some people may be over the top in their reteric, but the Tea Party has never been promoted as a “Christian” party…..many people who belong are not Christian. I have gone to many events and they are very respectful & responsible
    Perhaps you should focus your attention on England and try to help your brothers and sisters who are faced to an alarming Islamic influence.
    Glad the founder’s didn’t cower down and just accept the idea’s of the king.

  27. Well Andrew, If you really want a liberating and informative eye opening understanding of what is going on with these elections, then listen to this speech by Griffin explaining the Rhodes society and the CFR. Once you understand the how and why of the manipulators, a lot of this becomes much more clear. We vote for the different one, we “throw the bums out” only to have a continuation of the same policy. And after you listen to this speech, I highly recommend you hear the old interview that Griffin made with Norman Dodd concerning the Reese commission and the education policys in America. You will understand that this has been going on for a long time and has definite precise objectives in mind. We are very close to the end of their great vision for America and the world. And of course if that is not enough, I strongly recommend the films of Chris Pinto that explain some of the early plans for America. I also highly recommend the “fuel project” films, especially the part dealing with the french revolution. From these pieces of information you should be able to see what the big picture is, and the role we play in it. God bless you to continue to abide in the vine. -Cody
    The first speech I mentioned is :

    The Quigley Formula: The Conspiratorial View of History as Taught by the Conspirators Themselves (2007)
    (with Griffin)

    from this website: http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/newsarchive/geg_anti-nwo.htm

  28. Marc Wildman Jul 17th 2012

    The ‘Tea Party’ in America is simply another prolongation or representation of where the American Church stands as a whole. The gospels in America are as many as there are denominations. Revelation Chapter Three already depicts or tells us the end-time proviso of the Churches. Then it should be no incredulity, there are two lines forming at the poles. Many Christians in America feel they cannot vote given the choices this is their prerogative. Christianity is lacking unity and this also is prognosticated concerning the recusant Church. I personally stood with your thesis as many others. I’ll say it again, God puts Kings on their respective thrones for His good purpose(s). He’ll do the same in 2012, and something tells me America is about to be redefined, and I am afraid she’s not going to like what’s forthcoming. In the long run the Tea Party will heave very little effect on the perfect will of God.

  29. Daniel Jul 17th 2012

    Andrew, thank you for your honesty and caring for my country! You’re absolutely correct this country of mine is spiraling down spiritually like I have never witnessed in all my 73 years. God help us, have mercy on us and open our eyes! Keep speaking the truth Andrew!

  30. kelling Jul 17th 2012

    Be the light of the world, Shar Shalom Yashua, The Prince of Peace.

  31. T Adams Jul 17th 2012

    Here’s THE question Andrew.. Do we obey GOD’S will or someone elses? Everyone was quick to post about obeying God’s law verus man’s law but in the next sentence they mention obedience to the government is required of us. Which is it? Which path are we to follow? Please someone tell me… I cannot believe that God is OK with a country doing what this one is doing.. This country, once the bright beacon of hope to the world, has decayed into the giant flyswatter of the new world order. Are we to allow ourselves to FUND all the unholy activities? Even if we don’t actively participate in any of the immoral things that happen daily are we still guilty because we not only ALLOW these things to take place but facilitate them with our tax dollars?

    I am confused…(as usual) and looking for answers from everyone here..ESPECIALLY you Andrew!

    In HIm,

    Terry

  32. Thank you Andrew and PLEASE keep telling the truth.

  33. blessed1 Jul 17th 2012

    Wow, if we could only put this much energy into prayer and seeking God’s grace in sending us revival what an outpouring there would be!

  34. Estelle Jul 17th 2012

    Be strong and courageous, Andrew! Be strong and courageous!

  35. AmandaN Jul 17th 2012

    Andrew, you sadden me. You have personally attacked thousands of God-Loving Christians who are making daily sacrifices in an attempt to return God to our public lives. If we sit back and stay out of the political arena, we are allowing the influence of evil to control the conversation. Yes, there are those who approach the battle in the wrong way…but that gives you no right to judge the entire tea party movement and its Christian members based on the small sampling you have seen! Our group has over 200 wonderful members. These are the most generous, caring and kind-hearted folks I have ever known and I believe that God has placed me amongst them! We are the Watchmen on the Wall…we are called to protect those who don’t know any better and to lead an effort to bring our nation BACK TO GOD. Prayer is a very important part of that, but so is action! When Jesus encountered the money lenders in the temple did he quietly excuse himself to go pray that they would leave? NO, he took action. Satan is at work in this world and we are called to push him back. He works through all means available to him, including the political arena….therefore we must also!

    I would like to respond directly to your 5 points in your attack against the tea party:
    1.) We have stepped up to save individual liberty for all Americans BECAUSE we believe it is our responsibility as Christians to do so! 2.) We are not supporters of War, but supporters of our brave men and women our government sends into war…we are thankful that they are willing to sacrifice to protect us (even when we don’t believe the government should have involved them in a conflict) and we constantly pray for their protection. 3.) The argument that we side with the “rich against the poor” is also untrue! We are fighting for the continued opportunity for the poor to be able to lift themselves out of poverty and the right of all Americans to exercise their God-given free will in the determination of how they will spend their own money. We are against “charity” by force because it kills the spirit of giving and the sense of fulfillment personal generosity provides–it is also often given to those who work against our faith and moral foundation! In addition to that, as the old Chinese proverb says, “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” Government dependence should never be confused with generosity and charity. 4.) We do not wish to deny healthcare to the needy or anyone else, which is why we have gotten so involved to stop the destruction of the best healthcare system in the world and the rationing of care that must result from a government takeover of the industry. Have you read the healthcare bill? I have read over 500 pages of it and what it contains is NOT good for the poor or anyone else! 5.) In fighting to restore our Constitutional protections of our God-given rights (often through political means), we seek to return God to our public life. God has been driven out of every aspect of life through politics and legislation and we must un-do that. We also use politics and work within our electoral system to send principled, God-loving individuals to represent us in every level of government so that we can achieve that goal.

    “You must not judge by the appearance of things but by the reality!” John 7:24 (Phi)

    “Judge not, that ye be not judged…” Matthew 7:1 (KJV)

    For those who choose to follow Mr. Strom after his unChristian attack on good people, consider this verse:
    “My dear friends: do not believe all who claim to have the Spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere.” 1 John 4:1 (TEB)

  36. Christina Jul 17th 2012

    Andrew stand firm with what you said. You are completely correct. Most of mainstream Christianity in the US is extremely anti scriptural. You had such a strong reaction because you are bold enough to speak the truth. Remember the real prophets were hated by the religious.

  37. Christa Jul 17th 2012

    Hi Andrew, What most Christians have yet to realize is that an unrighteous king is the judgment of God. We have been totally given over because of our wickedness. The abortions, the immorality the greed of the false apostles and prophets that are fleecing the sheeple for millions of dollars while living in million dollar mansions ARE the judgment of God.

    All the earth is reeling because of the sin and wickedness of mankind. We ARE in the last of the last days and this is all prophecied in the Bible. We need to hold fast to what we have been taught and be prepared to be slaughtered for our love and testimony of Jesus.

    We can vote and pray and ask God for mercy but we are also to be actively working for the Kingdom of God and saving whoever we can from the fire. We are to speak up about sin and unrighteousness but politcal movements? What exactly did Jesus do? He did NOT tell us to fight or even be all that concerned about it. He was in the midst of Roman Rule and He didn’t take them down. He just kept preaching, teaching, healing the sick, casting out demons.

    People are surprised that I am not in favor of the whole tea party movement because I am an outspoken Christian who actually recently lost my job for my beliefs. I think when a liberal assumes I am pro tea party and then find out that I am not it actually shocks them into listening to what I have to say because they think all conservatives are alike. Very much like the death penalty issue. Liberals assume all conservatives are pro death penalty and I am not. I tell them I am truly prolife. I am prolife for the innocent, the guilty, the stupid and the unsaved!

    Christa

  38. jennifer Jul 17th 2012

    Amen brother, appreciate your willingness to say what the Spirit is saying for such a time as this…His Spirit impressed on me several years ago that voting for the “lesser of two evils” was still voting for evil…I now vote/or not, the same way He calls me to live the rest of my life…in Spirit and Truth…if He is not clearly leading me on a vote, then I already have my answer. This will NEVER sit well with republican Christians, note, I didn’t say Christians who happen to be registered republican, but the ones that put republican before Christ, it is really that simple, where is the heart? Seek Him with all your mind heart, soul and strength, He is worthy!!!
    (have you seen the tie-in with these political beliefs and false prophetic teachings? it happens on different levels with different false teachings…but again…where is the heart when it only wants it’s ears tickled…part of it still belongs to self/world and will not press on to know Him, to receive His Great Love as enough…and love Him with the whole heart)

  39. Andrew, our country is on the verge of being taken over by socialism and marxism .
    As christians we are responsible for the well being of our country. That is why we are praying for the Lord to heal our land. Don’t tell me that scripture isn’t for this time or country. Those, whom you believe are not acting like christians, are answerable to the Lord, if that is true. Only the Lord know who are truly His. You should be praying for our country if you love it, as you say you do, but not telling Americans to turn off listening to specific talk show hosts. May the Lord have mercy on us and help us.in this time of of distress. We pray the righteous will be authority in the election of 2012 and that obama will be a one term president. Psalm 109:8

  40. Andrew, here’s the no. 1 problem with your approach: God, instead of placing us under an earthly king, has appointed 100% of us as stewards of everything He has given us, including stewardship of what was founded as a Christian Republic, NOT a kingdom …

    … and currently the forces of our Enemy are taking it away from us, and this is happening on our watch.

    Noting both the “kindness and severity of God,” we can argue endlessly about how to fight these battles in loving, Christian ways.

    As Christians, we are both citizens of Heaven AND our Republic, and God will hold us accountable to the stewardship He has given us in both.

    So why are you polarizing us by insisting that our stewardship of the resources of His Kingdom excludes us from accountability as stewards of the Republic?

  41. Roxylee Jul 17th 2012

    2 Timothy 2:4
    No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier.

    It is easy to forget which army we are in. I used to watch the news incessantly and after a while it drew me away from the simplicity of the Gospel. Instead of praying and trusting in God’s sovereignty, I became fearful and suspicious, constantly seeing how corrupt and power hungry the politicians are. I don’t watch preachers on tv for the same reason. It’s wise to know what’s going on, but too much immersion in this stuff will make us spiritually sick. I need to pray a lot more for our leaders. Unless God saves them, they will go from bad to worse.

  42. Andrew, I would like to add that the Lord want his children to make wise decisions about whom should be elected for president in the coming election. Which party most reflects God’s views. The president we have now certainly doesn’t reflect biblical views and is seriously imposing ungodly laws on our citizens. He must be removed from office by the electorate!

  43. Andrew Jul 17th 2012

    As I said – by all means vote. I have nothing against voting.

    What I am concerned about is the terrible Christians witness of getting involved in all the ugly political fighting that is going on. The total opposite of true Christianity.

    Bless you all.

    Andrew

  44. once again,, Obama is Yahwehs judgment agaisnt a wicked Nation. You who read the bible know that it is Yahweh who raises one man up and brings another down.. History once again proves that man does not learn from it, and so the fourth reich (usa) comes.. soon, if true repentence does not come,, the judgments of Yah on this nation will continue to increase. Jeremiah 17 clearly states that He who trusts in the arm of flesh is foolish and will soon find out how foolish..All this talking is accomplishing nothing other than seperating the sheep from the goats,, goats always exalt self,, the love to climb up on the highest place.. and lambs are led to the slaughter..and this seperation will continue until the harlot chuch is destroyed by the political system she thinks will save her. PERHAPS THEM A FEW WILL AWAKEN OUT OF THIER SLUMBER AND TURN TO YESHUA WITH ALL FO THIER HEARTS.. that is my hope and prayer.. blessings to you Andrew…

  45. Andrew’s premonition that the response might become “ugly” is right on. His original post was filled with “man’s wisdom”, as opposed to “godly wisdom”. It would take 10 pages to upend the lies contained therein.

    Andrew’s text is a classic example of “do-gooder intentions” that pave the road to hell. Andrew proposes the twisting of government to be involved in things it has no business doing – like when Saul decided to assume the role of the priest. Saul was utterly rejected as King, not because he did something wrong in and of itself, but because he assumed the tasks properly held by others.

    Andrew suggests that government should assume the role of the Church! The Church is to take care of the sick and the needy. The job of government is to punish the wrong-doer. The Bible is very clear on this. It is not the job of government to care for the needy any more than it is the job of the Church to throw people into prison and extract fines. By the extension of Andrew’s logic, the Church should be trying civil and criminal cases, provided that the government is to care for the needy. This nation is is on the downward slope it is on account of the “Andrew’s” of the world being deceived, and deceiving others.

    Andrew’s text is also a classic example of someone stepping out of his own bounds. Andrews knows nothing of politics and government, but pretends to do so. This would be like me, who knows next to nothing about organized missionary work, schooling Andrew on how to be a missionary! I am sure he would reject my supposed wisdom as well, and rightly so!

    With that said, some texts going out in the name of the Tea Party are unfortunate, and show a poor choice of words and attitude.

    But for the record: Obama hates this country. Every major policy he has proposed has the goal of stealing, killing and destroying. Pointing this out is not necessarily “hate”. It can very well be an objective statement based upon objective observations.

    Andrew claims that politics is not spiritual. Well, politics is spiritual. Nations have princes. And if we don’t get our “butts in gear”, Andrew will not have the luxury of being a missionary in the framework of freedom he currently enjoys. The Bible is very clear that good government allows the Church to spread the Gospel in peace. Those who follow Andrew’s advice will soon find their ability to work in peace removed. We can all send Andrew a thank you card if we fall into that situation.

    It is counterproductive that Andrew would talk Christians out of political activities that make sure Missionaries can work in Peace in spreading the Gospel. Andrew is the one who says to the foot, “I have no need of you”. It takes all of us to make the Gospel happen. Andrew refuses to recognize the other gifts, and the efforts of others, upon which his work depends. He impedes the furtherance of the Gospel with man’s “wisdom”. Rather than complaining, he should have a thankful heart towards those who have answered God’s call to sacrifice their time, money and lives to invest in government, which is, by Andrew’s very own admission, a difficult environment. Apparently, Andrew, in his PRIDE, believes only his work has value. He is in error.

    I received Andrew’s mail from my wife. I may very well ask my wife to unsubscribe. Furthermore, I have no intention of donating to people who do not recognize the work of others, but on the contrary, treat it with disdain.

  46. Maggie Jul 17th 2012

    Andrew, you spoke what I was feeling but couldn’t put into words. If Christians would put as much zeal into saving the lost as they do organizing these tea party events, we truly would see a change in this country. You are right when you say the only “change” that will make a difference will be in the heart of man.

    We are in the last of the last days, people. The events that are taking place are to usher in the return of our Lord Jesus. Look to the Author and Finisher of our faith, not to politics. At the end of the day (or the age), His salvation is the only thing that will truly save you. In the meantime, vote for the lesser of two evils. And pray.

  47. Laurie Jul 17th 2012

    You know, guys this is precisely why His name is blasphemed among the heathen. I certainly hope there are no unsaved people reading this forum.

  48. Andrew, you are so right! We get caught up in the flesh so easily. I haven’t watched the news since I was 17 years old-and thats a few years ago. They slant and maniuplate. I decided I would get my news from the GOOD news! Yes, we need to vote and make a stand. But to get angry and say things we shouldn’t say is very wrong. God forgive me-I’m guilty of this myself. What we need is revival. REPENTENCE on our part. God starts at His house first. Then we will see change. Thank you Andrew for pointing out our error!

  49. Andrew – You may have lived in the US for four years but what you clearly do not understand is that we have a God inspired document upon which this nation’s political system has rested for over two hundred years—-the U.S. Constitution.
    President Obama and his henchman have ruthlessly and deliberately and with malice trampled the Constitution.
    We have not been a socialist country and the majority of us—-Christian and Non-Christians alike—-prefer to keep our country as a
    Non Socialist country. For you to rebuke good, devout, Jesus loving, God fearing Christians for pushing back against the forces of evil that are sweeping our land is wrong. Yes, there is always the opportunity for the “flesh” to get riled up and involved but that is the nature of war…..and make no mistake, we are at war with this enemy of principalities and powers of darkness. When you criticize Christians for fighting back just remember other Christians who fought back and paid with their lives. Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Corrie Ten Boom come immediately to mind.

    Many people thought in 2008 that Obama was a high-minded visionary who could devise brilliant solutions that would unite the country.
    Today many of those people know better.
    Obama is a narrow-minded authoritarian who thinks himself entitled to impose his statist views on the nation— his oath to uphold the Constitution be damned.
    He has squandered vast amounts of money on foolish and unconstitutional programs meant to reward his political allies.
    His speeches are sheer demagoguery and deception.
    If he stays in office for another four years, the damage to country will be incalculable.
    The coming election will be rife with fraud, double voting, votes by the dead, felons voting, more votes than registered voters, illegal alien voting, and any other illegal scheme that Obama, Acorn, and Democrat lawyers can devise.
    Obama vigorously campaigned using the rising federal debt as an example of what he would LOWER. Instead he has added more to that debt than any previous president in the history of our country.
    Here are some samples of the things his “spreading the wealth around” have gone to.
    In my opinion, he either a madman who an evil man who is intent on destroying a country that was once a Christian nation.

    OUR STIMULUS DOLLARS AT WORK:

    — $1.2 million to research how elderly people react to playing video games.

    –$180,935 to discover a better method for freezing rat sperm.

    — $233,000 to the University of California at San Diego to study why Africans vote.

    — Researchers the State University of New York at Buffalo got $389,000 to pay 100 citizens $45 each to record how much malt liquor they drink — and how much pot smoke each day. Consumption is then reported via an automated phone hotline. Cost per job: almost $200,000.

    –$4 million to weatherize just 47 homes in the state of Texas.
    That’s $78,000 per house. Each retrofit is supposed to save homeowners $500 a year in energy costs. That means taxpayers will recoup their investment in 156 years, long after the home is probably torn down.

    — Two Arizona universities got almost $1 million dollars so three grad students can study how ants work. That’s more than $300,000 per job.

    — Companies that raise tropical fish, shellfish, catfish, alligators and turtles qualify for $50 million in tax money to buy fish food.

    — North Carolina public schools received $4.4 million to hire math and literacy coaches, not for students, but teachers. That’s 64 people paid $70,000 each to teach teachers how to teach reading and math.

    –A half million dollars for new windows at the Mt. St. Helen’s Visitors Center in Amboy, Washington. The building has been closed since 2007 and there are no immediate plans to reopen it.

    –$6.9 million dollars for repairs to an 1846 brick fort marooned on Dry Tortuga at the end the Florida Keys. Few people can visit this remote national park unless they hire a seaplane or take a four-hour round-trip boat ride.

    –Creating a museum in an abandoned train station in Glassboro, NJ, at the cost of $1.2 million

    –$2 million dollars to send researchers from the California Academy of Sciences to islands in the Indian Ocean to study exotic ants.

    –A study of dog domestication at Cornell University with a price tag of $296-thousand dollars.

    –$141K dollars to send students from Montana State University to China to study dinosaur eggs.

    –$762K to create interactive choreography programs at the University of North Carolina. Dancers would wear electronic monitors to analyze their movements.

    $1.9 million provided for California scientists to “capture, photograph, and analyze” ants

    $298,543 to predict the weather on other planets.

    $144,541 for Wake Forest University scientists to give monkeys cocaine and see what happens. Even scarier: they’re having the monkeys administer the coke themselves.

    $712,883 to build a machine that tells jokes.

    $294,958 on a program to reduce menopausal hot flashes with yoga classes.

    “You know, a million here and a million there and pretty soon you’re talking about real money.” A politician.

    To rephrase your own words, Andrew. “Suppose the Antichrist comes and he comes as a Christian?”
    To rape, steal, plunder, kill and destroy?
    And the sheeple just sit back in their Christian bliss and allow it to happen.

  50. Andrew Jul 17th 2012

    So you are saying Christians should fight in the flesh to preserve our “rights”?

    Is that what Jesus would do?

    -Andrew

  51. A NATION OF MOOCHERS

    ” Nowhere in the New Testament or the other books of the Bible do Jesus Christ, His apostles, God the Father, the Holy Spirit, Moses or the Hebrew prophets command the government to take money from its citizens and transfer it to poor people.

    In fact, the Bible says just the opposite.

    God presents us with three general ways in the Bible to take care of the poor and needy: 1) through the family; 2) through the church; and 3) through individual charity. The applicable passages for these three ways are Deuteronomy 14:28, 29, Numbers 18:24, Matthew 6:1-4 and 1 Timothy 5:3-16.

    People’s first obligation is to the needy, poor, widowed and orphaned in their own families. Only after they do this do they have any obligation to help the needy, poor, widowed and orphaned through their local church organization. God established the pattern for this kind of church giving in Numbers 18:24 and Deuteronomy 14:28, 29. As David Chilton points out in his great book “Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators,” the bulk of Christian giving to the local church should be geared toward financing professional theologians, experts in biblical law and church discipline, teachers of God’s word and leaders skilled in worship. It was only every third year that all the giving was set aside to help the needy, poor, widowed and orphaned. Even then, the money was not given just to anyone who showed up. Those able to work but don’t do not qualify for help. Also, those who have families to take care of them don’t qualify, nor do widows under age 60 qualify, according to the Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 5:3-16.”

  52. Andrew Jul 17th 2012

    Yes – I agree, Sarah.

    But none of that is what this is all about.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  53. Laurie Jul 17th 2012

    Wow….God bless America.

  54. Joanne Jul 17th 2012

    I wonder what William Wilberforce’s tone was when he took up the issue of slavery in the English Parliament. Here was a Christian severely exercised about that immoral practice of his government and in a place to do something about it. And do something he did! although it took him many, many years of argument, debate, and who knows what else?
    The general tone of American culture today is vulgar and very hateful. We Christians need to be very, very careful that we do not adopt that kind of spirit into our rhetoric, but we cannot stop being salt and light in this world. Instead of turning off specific radio and TV stations, let’s discern who is angry and hateful and pass those by. But let’s not give up learning about the world we live in and being actively engaged in righting its wrongs! Our fellows need us to be praying AND to be working, with Christlike meekness and forthright engagement with those who would lead astray. If we cannot be kind to one another in doing so, however, we have lost our witness and need to spend more time alone with the Lord. Beware the deception of the culture of our times….and how it slowly becomes our own culture if we are not immersed more in the Word of God! Is this Andrew’s message?

  55. Andrew

    I agree that the solution to our problems lies in the spiritual realm. I also agree that christian nationalism is dangerous

    However…my issue with your first article has to do with the the falsehoods you promoted. You spoke things that clearly are NOT true. Yet you refuse to retract them. That’s why I question the source of your information. (And I am not talking about the media here) There is one father of lies and there is One source of truth. From whence come your falsehoods?

  56. sharon Jul 17th 2012

    That was a real eye opener Sarah. such waste from our government.
    Andrew your OP was a real division maker. Were the results worth it?
    I agree with Bob Rutz and Dolli.
    Blessings to all and may we let this problem make us all stronger.
    As in our weakness, He provides strength.

  57. Joe Moriarty Jul 17th 2012

    Hi Andrew: While I’m not an activist, or member of the Tea Party, I was wondering how 2 Chronicles 7:14 would fit into this discussion? “If My people” take the proper action, “I…will heal their land.” Should Gods people do nothing?
    Your follow-up apology for offending anyone seems to be addressed at all those who offended you. Many others simply gave honest views that differed with you, but their comments go unrecognized.
    You seemed to condemn those, or at least strongly tell those, who listen to Rush Limbaugh and watch Fox News, that they are either mislead or fools. Then you apologized for any offense. It seemed like the apology was a license to say what you wanted. It was like saying, I can premeditate a sin, then ask God for forgiveness.
    The lack of compassion you accuse the Tea Party of seems to be showing up in your accusations. I realize emails don’t clearly convey a persons heart, so let us all please learn to extend Grace to one another as we grow in the Lord. I’m not “locked in” to what I just wrote, yet, I am free to express my view…but, that’s all it is, a view!
    Still, with regards, Joe

  58. As for Fox News, it is good idea to switch this channel off – and many others. It is manipulating people as part of the New World Order’s divide-and-rule game, and wasting their emotional energy into thinking the battle is between Left and Right. Elected leaders, whether from the “Left” or the “Right”, turn out to be little more than the puppets of the large, unaccountable corporations, which Fox News is a part of. Did Bush do what he promised? Did Obama either? America needs to wake up! Did you hear the ominous media silence over Ron Paul, because he was not playing their game?

    Sorry for the politics, but God can use politicians when the time is right. First, of course, hearts need change. Perhaps, when there is enough repentance, God can raise up a Cyrus.

  59. Ejimanze Jul 17th 2012

    Brother Andrew,

    U lost me on this liner: ‘In closing, I want to apologize to anyone who was offended by my last article…
    My sincere apologies to anyone who was offended.’

    Imagine Jesus apologising to the Sanhedrin for telling them the truth! Or Apostle Peter expressing ‘sincere apologies’ to ‘ye men of Israel’ for reproving them for killing the Holy One of God! Or John the Baptist (I thought this was his TV!?) apologising to ‘you brood of vipers!’ We take this being nice of a thing a bit too far.

    Truth is that religion, whatever the brand, is Satan’s number 1 earthly power grab strategic weapon. Christian America today is not different from religious Juda in the days of our Lord Jesus on earth. How many of the religious folks knew that the very Messiah was the one standing in their midst? Same today.

    So please be encouraged and fire on as the Spirit gives you utterance.

    Ejimanze

  60. You make some good points here, better than the last one, there are some ugly aspects of the tea party and they should be exposed, denounced and repented of. However, we should press on in holiness and expose evil, call men to righteousness and vote our conscience. We can’t throw out the baby with the bath water, if all believers voted we would not have legal abortion and many other wicked, wicked laws.

  61. I’m convinced that many evangelicals are unaware of how they look outside the cocoon. Believe me, there are a lot of people who are hungry for God but their image of his people are a bunch of angry folk who would rather legislate behavior than win people to Christ.

    Just imagine you REALLY had the task of winning souls.

  62. Dave Moore Jul 17th 2012

    Oh, the really sad thing is when Christians use 2 Chronicles 7:14 as though America were his theocracy.

    If you are a Christian, then you HAVE humbled yourself to pray, sought his face, and turned from your wicked ways. He has heard from heaven, forgiven your sin, and your land is healed.

    Now your land is being prayed onto earth as it is in heaven where lies your citizenship.

  63. rozain Jul 17th 2012

    Andrew,

    I cannot agree with you more. I strongly believe the issue is that many people who believe they are “saved” have a mental assent to Jesus being G-d but have never given Him the Lordship of their lives. The Bible tells us that the inclination to sin, to be unlike Jesus will not be there if you are of Him and One with Him.

    Jesus Himself said this in Matthew 7:15-23. He told us to judge the true from the false from their fruits; not by any other standard – miraculous or otherwise.

    I pray much for the rulership of the nations. In 2008, the Lord clearly showed me that Obama would win because of the sins of the other side of racism. This was dealing with the “illegal immigrant” issue, who many tea party, right wing types would say, is their opposition to those who broke the law.

    The Bible tells us to treat the stranger well. The right wing ignores the fact that the many so called “illegals” were welcomed with open arms, especially in the border states where their cheaper labor was invaluable in bringing in the harvest. My white landlord was a farmer in Texas, and he told me this.

    I now live in central Virginia and I have seen the ugly side of racism – by very respectable looking white people and sometimes black people…

    Going back to 2008, the Lord showed me that the racism will play a significant role in the elections because of the treatment of the “illegal immigrants” – Obama’s color played a significant role in getting him votes even among “christians” who overlooked the fact that he supported abortion, homosexuality etc.

    The Lord also showed me that the US economy will tank, and they would not be able to blame the immigrants, though they kept saying that they will run out of resources if the immigrants had health care etc. The housing bubble was the main cause of the beginning of economic woes in the US, not the immigrants.

    The basic argument of the right, Tea party types is anti- the Word of G-d. He never told us we will run short; He is the G-d Who provides. If it does not exist, He will call it into existence. How can a person violate His Word and believe they will prosper because they think they are His followers?

    The issue I strongly believe in 2012, is whose un-G-dliness outweighs the other. I think Obama scored big with his move to help the immigrants and rein in corporate abuse (the recent decision to have oversight over the Credit reporting agencies, is an example, that will help less educated, economically less privileged people). Romney offers to keep the same abominations Obama supports like homosexual marriage support etc. with the strong possibility that big business will be permitted to abuse the less privileged man once again.

    Is it the same abomination with a different face in Romney – He does not have a moral and ethical agenda that he has spoken of, that differs from Obama…

    I believe Obama, in a balance of G-dliness, will win. We can take authority over the demonic, for the protection of Israel, and the return of G-dliness to the US and all nations.

  64. I believe Andrew means well. And it is important to stand for truth as led by Love in Love or the results are heartless.

  65. Lori T Jul 17th 2012

    I agree with Ruth and I have said it since he was elected; President Obama is our Nebuchadnezzar. It is the Lord who sets kings and Pres. Obama has been set where he is for the Lord’s purpose alone. My question to those who vote….have you even prayed about if you should even vote? If you have have you prayed about who to vote for? Or are you using human reasoning by choosing the lesser of two evils? (which is still evil) My point in asking this is if the scriptures is true and it it the Lord who sets kings and you don’t vote for His man, aren’t you actually opposing God? I guess it doesn’t make any difference. If Pres. Obama is going to continue to be our judgment, he isn’t going anywhere.

  66. Kathleen in WA State Jul 17th 2012

    I am amazed that so many “takes” have been derived from the one post … This one agrees; that one is incensed; another doesn’t much care. Some applaud, others drag out the tar & feathers. Go figure.

    This I know: it is a great privilege & duty to vote in any country, or for any cause. Thus it carries an equally great responsibility to know the candidates & the issues in order to be informed. That’s a far cry from swamping your own boat with vitriol, rancor & clamor.

    There are many good information sources, especially with the internet (The BBC, Reuters & the Daily Political, to name a few) that there’s no need to gobble up a meal of one view only. And it never hurts to visit the FactCheck.org site either. Politicians have made an Olympic sport of “spin”.

    Another thing I know: this is a forum. As such, it is:
    a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
    b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
    c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.

    By virtue of the fact that I enjoy & profit from the exchange of ideas here & elsewhere, this is a forum that makes me think. I have never for a moment thought it (or you) were heaven-bent on making me think this way or that. Just think. And pray. You rightly point out our true citizenship: God’s kingdom. I doubt He’ll be having Sean Hannity as a spokesperson :)

    Are we not, as iron, to sharpen iron? Are we not, as obedient Christ-followers, to reason together? Even Paul, in the face of Peter’s double-speak didn’t shrink from truth-telling; or, in the face of insurmountable pagan odds (at the Acropolis) was respectful, informed, gracious – yet direct. He didn’t cow-tow or mince his words. He spoke at that forum with great boldness.

    I’m so sorry for the personal attacks that have been launched against you, Andrew. I suppose that’s the risk of such an open forum. It ought not be among brothers, especially when we consider how much God hates the sowing of discord. If nothing else, we can agree to disagree. Afterall, you’re not giving a different gospel or aberrant theology here.

    Bless you, and keep on keepin’ us thinking.

    P.S. I apologize for this lengthy post. I don’t like them and won’t be doing this often.

  67. rozain Jul 17th 2012

    I also want to add an experience that will give you another side of the right wing that is not often spoken about – they are often uninformed and can get very emotional.

    I was in Ashland, Virginia among many pentecostal/charismatic type people, who were going to DC for a “prayer meeting” led by Glen Beck…I was amused the find that one of the ardent tea partiers, told me she did not know Glen Beck was Mormon…and he was to lead the prayer meeting she was to attend…

    The founding fathers is another “idol” used by the right wing, especially the far right wing, to rally their faithful. There was a recent display of the Jefferson Bible – the bible Thomas Jefferson put together. He had cut off all the miracles of Jesus and made a bible that he used, because he felt the miracles would not be helpful for a political agenda.

    Benjamin Franklin, another founding father, was a 33rd degree mason. This is an established fact. He was involved in the design of the one dollar bill with the pyramid and the abomination of the “all seeing eye.” If you dig deeper, you come across others who were also involved with freemasonry, and other un-G-dly practices.

    To claim allegiance ot G-d and the principles of G-d on the founding fathers or any of those who glorify the abominable practice of violating G-d’s Word because man finds it attractive, is idolatry; and G-d will not only not support it; He will also cause their enemies to prosper!

    Let us get right with G-d and He will raise up leaders who please His Heart. In Daniel 4:17, we are told that the Lord G-d raises up and puts down the kingdoms of men…In Jesus, we are One with G-d to decree His Heart over the nations…

  68. As a senator in the Illinois state senate, then Senator Obama was the LONE vote against a bill to deal with a particularly heinous situation called Born Alive Abortions….which happens when a child miraculously survives an abortion attempt and is then placed, alive, in a closet to dehydrate and starve to death—-thus completing the abortion process.
    The senate bill which passed (despite Senator Obama’s sole, ‘No’ vote) decreed that any baby surviving an abortion should be given medical treatment, food and hydration and every chance to live.
    Obama’s ‘NO’ vote on this bill gives us a glimpse into his “Christian” heart and mind.
    These are matters that the American main stream media have chosen to ignore, hide or explain away as they have provided cover for this man who claims to be a Christian.
    I do not belong to the TEA Party but I believe their fight is a just one. It is my understanding that the TEA Party is Pro Life and therefore it behooves Christians to give the TEA party as much support as possible.
    They are doing what no other political group is doing.

  69. No appolagies, I agree. Good job in bringing this topic up, Andrew. Woe to you Political activists! If you love this world you will die with this world! You love your filthy mammon more than God, you will die with your filthy mammon! God will burn both you and it in the unquenchable fire!

  70. Andew is our Brother In Christ and we should NEVER attack him personally. I am happy that he is giving his thoughts on this. he cares enough to warn us. I have a loved one in the TEA party and the words that come from her are pretty bad. CAN America be saved by voting in or out? I want to know-do you?

  71. Joe,

    Your question to Andrew about 2 Chronicles 7:14 brought this article back to my mind that I had just read yesterday by Mark Geppert, The Cry For Justice

    Also as I’ve been reading through the comments from Andrew’s first article and now this one, I appreciated everyones opinion, regardless of how they might have voiced it.
    _________

    I valued Don Atkins words of wisdom too.

    Thank you all for a very lively discussion on a very heated topic.

    Be encouraged everyone and remember the The Power of Prayer!

    Blessings to you all,
    Cindy

  72. ANDREW,

    If you are concerned about ugly discourse, why would you send out an email that evokes ugly discourse? Not once but twice?

    All politics are ugly, and all politics have spiritual repercussions. The Reformation was as much political as it was spiritual, and involved a lot more than mere ugly discourse. Or would you rather the church had not fought those PROTESTant battles?

    As a Christian leader you are telling the flock they are allowed to vote, but they are not allowed to be involved in politics.

    I thought you were a student of church history? Which is full of the church fighting for the rights of the non-Christians and the church, using prayer, politics, fasting, revolution, martyrdom, campaigning, preaching, leaflets (both spiritual and political).

    But you think Christians should not speak out!

    Thank God for:

    Dietrich Bonhoeffer
    William Wilberforce
    The American Founding Fathers
    Et al…

    whose Christian leaders did not limit them to voting only, but they got fully involved in the political process for the glory of God.

    Why do you tell Christians to turn off FOX and Limbaugh, but do not tell us to turn off the equally incendiary left-wing media? Bias much?

    Clearly your agenda is driven by left of centre politics, and I’m not sure you even realize it!

    Simon

  73. I am happy Andrew and other brothers and sisters in the Lord have finally caught on. This issue about the tea party or any other party standing for Christian values is utter rubbish. They are mostly motivated by deep seated racism that cloaks itself as some kind of righteous anger against Obama. Fox news, or any other media outlet is there for PROFIT. Thats all there is. They will use whatever strategy to achieve that. And that includes packaging themselves as Christian conservatives to fool some of you guys. They are NOT and NEVER have been. If they really care about Christianity why do they use their channels and other media outlets to do so many ungodly stuff. Also does any of you really think Rupert Murdoch and his family Christians? If not, how can his tv stations be? Can a bad tree bear good fruits? Please let us humble ourselves before God so that He may grant us the ability to discern between good and evil. God bless you brother Andrew for gathering to boldness to address this issue.

  74. Val sm Jul 17th 2012

    Right on Andrew! I would say that the hatred is pretty evenly divided between left and right. I was struck by repeated mention of getting God back into public life in some posts. The thing that hit me was He will be very much in the public life when He has His rightful place in our private lives, when our hearts are revived, and turned to Him. I used to love Fox. News and Glenn Beck, but have found the continual Obama bashing just too much. I don’t like him all that much as a president, but feel that no matter who is elected in the coming election, things will not change, but go from bad to worse, as the problem is that the church needs to turn back to God…..after all it says “if MY people, who are called by MY name”…..if we as a church were where we should be, spiritually, things would be different according to 2 Chron. 7:14. I appreciate very much what you have written and have felt the same thing.

    An interesting note……we in Canada continued to submit to the governing people and the King of England. We had no war, but live in freedom today. Just something to think about…..

    Another thought…..according to what I have read, speaking of Hitler, there were over forty different attempts on Hitlers life, and God, for whatever reason, did not allow any of them to work out…..He could have, of course, but He is sovereign over the affairs of men.

  75. Thank you, Simon. Well put.

  76. Ugandaprof Jul 17th 2012

    Many are saying they are sorry for the personal attacks on Andrew but that is exactly what he has done in his writing against some of us that love Jesus and also love America enough to get involved. We have an illegal president bent on making this a country of socialists. His friends are traitors like bill ayers that set bombs in the 60s. According to what andrew wrote “don’t get involved in fleshly battles” then George Washington and the boys should have just paid king George’s taxes. Your call for passivity is from misguided thinking on what would Jesus did and would do today. As far as I’m concerned Andrew you DON’T love this country. I’m thinking that our customs guys found out about you and that’s why they refused you entry at the border last year. Good for them. We don’t need you!

  77. How ought Christians to think about politics? Through the lens of the gospel, i.e., the same way we are supposed to view the world, and our lives.

    For example:

    The term ‘conservative’ begs the question: Conserving WHAT? Answer: the singular truth of the Biblical, historical gospel, handed down once to the saints. The gospel which can and will conquer all foes, albeit at the cost of our lives. If we’re seeking to conserve something else in addition to that (e.g., money, power, etc.), those efforts will fail. More to the point: they will burn.

    The term ‘liberal’ also begs the question: Liberal in regards to WHAT? Answer: spreading that very same gospel truth… i.e., fulfilling the Great Commission of Christ. If we’re seeking to be liberal in regards to anything else (e.g., money, power, etc.) those efforts will also fail/burn.

    The gospel is the ONLY ground on which both truth and unity are possible… humbled at the foot of the cross. (A good test for ANY media: is it likewise humble in pointing out truth?) Unifying around anything else is doomed to fail/burn.

    Scripture is clear that no nation is on Christ’s side when he returns. Do we want to be standing with one of those nations? Or with him? If we know Him and what He offers, the choice is very easy.

  78. Ann Witham Jul 17th 2012

    Andrew,
    You are so right. I want to know Christ, and Him crucified. How easy it is to get our minds off of the One who is our first and only Love!

  79. Ugandaprof Jul 17th 2012

    By the way mark, even if barak were white he would still be an illegal president. I’m living in Africa, funding a free children’s clinic, feeding street kids, and prison inmates with aids that have bees abandoned and left to die. So that means I’m a racist (i oppose obama) that’s giving his life for people of color I’m supposed to hate since I’m a racist
    ? The race card is played by racists. If jc watts would run for president or Colin Powell or condalessa I would vote for any of them. You my friend are a hypocrite. Go do something for your people instead of mimicking tired old Jesse Jackson and his buddy Al .

  80. mark Bailey Jul 17th 2012

    I sent this on to my yahoo group, Christian Homesteaders where we talk about preparedness, mostly Spiritual preps.

    I’m forwarding this because he emphasizes what I’ve been saying all along, what we really need is Spiritual preparedness over, not in exclusion of course, to physical preparation. Both are important, but without a good foundation in God, all the food and guns to watch over it will get you thru’. I belong to other groups than this and many emphasize guns and ammo, and THESE ARE CHRISTIAN GROUPS, or one OI know is always after us to buy gold [from him not in coincidentally] If we follow our Bihles and what the Holy Spirit brings to our remembrance, we can’t go wrong if we are in His will.
    As for Politics, Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.
    Luke 20:
    21So the spies questioned him: “Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. 22Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?”
    23He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24“Show me a denarius. Whose portrait and inscription are on it?”
    25“Caesar’s,” they replied.
    He said to them, “Then give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
    As to gold see Rev.3:18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
    And as to Guns and ammo, get what God tells you to get, remember just before Jesus was arrested he told his disciples to buy swords, 2 for the 12 He said was fine. No amount of guns and ammo will save you from a bigger force, whether its the government or the MZB’s. And no amount of guns or ammo will harm you if God is on your side.

    I completely agree with you and try to stay away from all politics.
    as to the writer above I was marveling last night I was studying left and right Matt 25:33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
    and again: Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.

    of course the directions are entirely man made, but it is pause for thought.

  81. In as much as we would like to have a government with Christian leadership reflecting Christian values – we really need to see the CHURCH represented by Christians truly reflecting Christ-like attitudes – demonstrating that unity is not total uniformity and we can disagree with one another without dishonoring one another. May we answer the call to transcend the slanderous bickering and be conformed to the image of Christ – who spoke the truth in love, instead of being conformed to the mocking scoffers of this world. Praise God we do have the right to vote, but honestly I find that more often than not, I am only given the opportunity to choose between the lesser of two evils – echoing the oft expressed sentiment that no real redemption will come from the political sector. Knowing that, I pray we focus on the character transformation and GOOD WORKs (Eph 2:10) we were created for (for God’s glory) instead of merely advancing a calculated political agenda (for man’s glory). That said, I am thankful for my brothers and sisters who have bravely answered the call to enter the political arena – called to serve God in this capacity – may they demonstrate that there is a DIFFERENCE in the way we conduct business than that in which the world does: we don’t have to prove that God is right, He will do that – we just need to demonstrate that God is GOOD and loving and just and that these attributes are not mutually exclusive.

  82. mark Bailey Jul 17th 2012

    mark, no last name, aren’t you bearing bad fruit? Just asking. 1 Cor 5:9-11 says no slanderer, etc will make it into the Kingdom of God.

  83. Andrew, I could not agree more . I used to be “one of those” several years ago, but I have since seen the light and deplore what political activism is doing to the name of Christianity. I do believe we evangelicals have put a stumbling block in the path of lost. There is so much prejudice due to the mean-spiritedness and ugly behavior by us that one almost has to disassociate themselves from the “christians’ in order to get past the prejudice of the lost and deliver the Gospel. It’s still good news, isn’t it? I agree 100% with everything you said, have felt this same way for years now and have been speaking this to my Christian friends, not well-received, yet I continue because it burns in my heart. I am an American, I love my country, but yes, I love my God and his kingdom more. And his Kingdom is not of this world.

  84. These are only my opinions not a thus saith the LORD,

    I do not personally know anyone in the Tea Party Movement, listen to FOX news, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck or watch TV in general.

    But one thing is becoming clear to me as I read the comments, I believe we can have pride in our communities and our country, but when our pride has crossed the line to shaming people who belong to other groups something is amiss.

    I believe the trouble begins when we persuade ourselves that our ways are the only right ways and that we are the best people of the world.

    It is the start of trouble because our pride in our group then tempts us to despise other groups, and to shame other persons simply because they are members of a group that our group despises.

    I have come to know in my inner being that the remedy for all shame is discovering that we are in spite of everything, accepted in the Beloved.

    In spite of everything, you are accepted by the only one who matters most!

    God Bless,
    Cindy

  85. Good that you are prepared stand up for the values you stand for Andrew and to take the flak.

    This is not a straightforward issue, though. Some are saying that we should not have anything to do with politics. But we are told to be salt and light. Who else is going to stand against issues such as abortion if believers do not? The world, for the most part, couldn’t care less and sees abortion as a means of birth control. And there are other issues apart from abortion. If we do not stand up to be counted while we have the opportunity, the time will come when we will no longer have the opportunity. But we should beware of going beyond trying to influence things for good for the sake of the vulnerable, otherwise we get our priorities wrong.

    The idea that we can get the country (here or the USA) right and then Jesus can return is a false one. We know that ultimately, when the Lord does return faith will be at a low ebb. The kingdom of the Antichrist is going to rule and terrible things are going to happen. Our first call, therefore is to win souls and make disciples who will stand, whatever the state of the nation at a given time.

  86. It’s funny how you state your opinion, which you have every right to do Andrew, but when the backlash comes you only seem to point out those who disagree with your point of view with total disregard for the many points people have brought up about the flaws in your article on the Tea party. Flaws which have nothing to do with the Tea party but rather an underlying flaw in your own life phylosophy regardless of party. I support NO political party because they are all corrupt. The Tea party wasn’t even a party, it was only when “christians” like Michele Bachmann and the mormon Glenn Beck hijacked it. It was only a movement of people sick of being taxed and having their money wasted by the government.

    But Andrew, the real backlash directed at you is not in defending the Tea party, it is rather in the comments you made about how “they” are against the poor or how “they” don’t provide healthcare to everyone. Those are liberal NWO doctrines necessary in establishing communism. It’s all about language. Your language is liberal language. It says that the “Tea party” is against poor people. The real question is why aren’t there enough jobs for all people to have one? You say the “Tea party” does not provide healthcare to all people. The real question is why is healthcare so expensive that I can’t buy it on my own.

    You attack just like the liberals attack but I haven’t heard and answer as to what the root issue is and how it’s going to be solved. If your going to just attack people then your no more than just another uninformed (or informed puposefully hiding the truth) liberal.

  87. Kathleen in WA State Jul 17th 2012

    P.S. As I was out walking this morning, and listening to songs on my IPOD, I ran across this one. In my opinion, it encapsulates your sentiments, Andrew. May He open our eyes, and break our hearts for what breaks His.

    Casting Crowns: Jesus – Friend of Sinner

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9Kcm2OAWNA&feature=related

  88. David Ortega Jul 17th 2012

    I’m grieved in the reaction (not a response) to Andrew’s warnings. The reactions is evidence of the truth Andrew speaks. Christians in general have been taken captive by a worldly worldview and don’t realize it. Let me just this to those sincere Christians who feel offended. It isn’t about your motives; it’s about the means, the unloving, ungraceful, self-righteous manner with which we are trying to confront the evil that is abroad in our country (and world). It is the target of our actions too. Let’s begin with “cleaning” up the church and let’s begin with ourselves.

    Enough said for now.

  89. In the OT when evil kings ruled everyone suffered the consequences of their actions. God’s prophets would speak out on the evil sometimes to the kings themselves and sometimes it was received and sometimes not. When it wasn’t things got worse, when it was things got better. Today the christian community is sometimes cooperating with the wrong and not speaking out against it. I believe we have a responsibility because of the way our constitution was formed to preserve freedom and liberty and if we don’t we will loose it. A famous quote says “All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.” I believe in prayer and repentence as it says in II Chronicles 7:14 that if we want to see the land healed that we should do as it instructs. Then we as citizens should do our part to speak out freely about what is happening in a christian way and vote to preserve freedom and liberty. A chrisitan attitude is important for a witness as well. We have a lot to loose if we don’t.

  90. Kathleen in WA State Jul 17th 2012

    P.S.S.

    Isaiah to God: “What do you mean you’re going to raise up someone named Cyrus from among the nations? Wouldn’t that make him a pagan, God? You are planning on blessing him greatly, God, even calling him a ‘shepherd’? Something just doesn’t ring true with what I know about the sort of shepherds You bless. Did you realize that?”

    Daniel to God: “Ok, so this new ruler, Cyrus … he’s as pagan as they come even though he’s the lesser evil as pagan rulers go. You really want me to serve him with grace & humility? Wouldn’t I be better off standing my ground & protesting his leadership?”

    Ezra to God: “Huh? Did I hear you correctly? Cyrus, our illustrious pagan ruler is going to issue some sort of proclamation in favor of Your people? Should our people really trust him, or follow his edicts? Is that really what you’re saying here?”

    I’m done now :)

  91. teresa Jul 17th 2012

    Brother Andrew,
    I agree with you, and to see the nasty personal attacks instead of healthy debated issues without offence is just confirming the reason for this second note.

    I used to be a strong republican, and enjoyed the Tea Party movement.
    But when you pray that God reveals Himself in purity and His word in His context, and as you surrender all that you have thought you knew before, (except for the foundations in true salvation through the cross and the blood of Jesus) It is surprising what you see when you surrender to the pruning of the Husbandman, in John 15.

    I have found that most everything in all of cable news are biased according to their
    Aggenda’s including Fox News, MSNBC, and even internet news. It is filtered through their motives and backed by a divisive spirit that makes you want to fight and call the other side names.

    Yes, there is planned divisions, economical, racial, political like never before to purposely divide, from this administration, but also from the hardcore militant right, especially.

    I realize this was a particularly nasty attack against yoi, and I have been through
    similar, but not at the same scale. I have had friends get offended and haven’t heard from them in a year. Because I spoke out.

    The enemy seems to use even written fiery darts, and because of love for God’s people you are vulnerable. If you don’t love them, then it is easier to
    take.

    Remember when you were first writing about the
    False prophets, and the false prophetic movement, remember when you wrote about Todd Bentley’s false revival and the false apostolic covering.
    Doesn’t the nasty
    Comments currently about the Tea Party, have the same feel?
    They should, because it comes from a same type of false relgious spirit.
    No where did Jesus gather His disciples to rally for a certain party or sect.
    Their goal as Christians was to reveal Christ, not to convert party affiliations.

    Anyway, you wrote the truth, in and because of love, knowing you would get ridiculed, and still wrote.
    I call that love, and not everyone has ears to hear, and some are just swine turning to trample you.

  92. teresa Jul 17th 2012

    Brother Andrew,
    I agree with you, and to see the nasty personal attacks instead of healthy debated issues without offence is just confirming the reason for this second note.

    I used to be a strong republican, and enjoyed the Tea Party movement.
    But when you pray that God reveals Himself in purity and His word in His context, and as you surrender all that you have thought you knew before, (except for the foundations in true salvation through the cross and the blood of Jesus) It is surprising what you see when you surrender to the pruning of the Husbandman, in John 15.

    I have found that most everything in all of cable news are biased according to their
    Aggenda’s including Fox News, MSNBC, and even internet news. It is filtered through their motives and backed by a divisive spirit that makes you want to fight and call the other side names.

    Yes, there is planned divisions, economical, racial, political like never before to purposely divide, from this administration, but also from the hardcore militant right, especially.

    I realize this was a particularly nasty attack against yoi, and I have been through
    similar, but not at the same scale. I have had friends get offended and haven’t heard from them in a year. Because I spoke out.

    The enemy seems to use even written fiery darts, and because of love for God’s people you are vulnerable. If you don’t love them, then it is easier to
    take.

    Remember when you were first writing about the
    False prophets, and the false prophetic movement, remember when you wrote about Todd Bentley’s false revival and the false apostolic covering.
    Doesn’t the nasty
    Comments currently about the Tea Party, have the same feel?
    They should, because it comes from a same type of false relgious spirit.
    No where did Jesus gather His disciples to rally for a certain party or sect.
    Their goal as Christians was to reveal Christ, not to convert party affiliations.

    Anyway, you wrote the truth, in and because of love, knowing you would get ridiculed, and still wrote.
    I call that love, and not everyone has ears to hear, and some are just swine turning to trample you.

  93. Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
    Rom 13:2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
    To me this scripture not only says that the powers that be right now are ordained of God and to resist them or to try to overthrow them would be to resist God and will be judged for it.Paul didn’t say it is wrong to resist them but peaceful resistance is OK.Whether we forcefully resist or try to vote them out(which is using the arm of the flesh) either way we are rebelling against God’s authority.We should pray for those in authority.God uses these powers to bring us to our cross.If you should to resist then he owe lives by the sword shall die by the sword.Rev_13:10 If any man is for captivity, into captivity he goeth: if any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
    God Bless

  94. DarkSword Jul 17th 2012

    One of the many ‘implicit’ purposes of the Old Testament is to show that “legislating for righteousness’ simply doesn’t work. If it did, then there would be no need for salvation by grace and no point at all to our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross.

    The only good thing to come out of this will be the increased exodus of true christians from the organised
    churches – those who know their Lord’s voice and are utterly determined to do what HE tells them to do, no matter what the cost is to themselves.

    As Jesus said himself “I know MY sheep, and my sheep know MY voice.”

    A question I once asked myself many years ago was this: “Did I really “know’ the LORD’s voice?”

    I could clearly see that if I did not ‘know’ the LORD’s voice, then obviously I was NOT one of his sheep, so the question was of some considerable importance to me at the time.

    We all need to take the greatest of care in these times to make sure that it is Gods ‘voice’ that we are listening to, in all that we do.

    By all means support the Tea Party if thats what God clearly tells you to do. If he doesn’t tell you to do that, then ask him to clearly tell you what other things he wants you to do. We all need to be about our master’s business and not our own.

  95. This entire situation tests the hearts of Christians in the USA. “The heart is desperately wicked. Who can know it?”

    I recall the call prayer for rain ” of Biblical proportions” against Obama’s Convention acceptance speech in August 2008-to show God’s displeasure. Whose idea was that? Did they receive the answer God gave? God sent sunshine over Obama’s acceptance speech. But as for the GOP candidate’s acceptance ceremony, hurricane weather (of Biblical proportions) caused the speech to be postponed.

    Was this a sufficient answer to Right-wing Christians who wanted Obama’s blood? Suddenly, the weather has “nothing to do with God, but was a coincidence.”

    The point is, these people are not hearing God, until He says what they want Him to say, when they want Him to say it, and how they want Him to say it. They will not hear the truth. There were prayers for the death of Obama before the inauguration by ministerial leaders who were once respected. There were false prophecies and curses pronounced against those who voted for Obama. What is the reason for all this?

    They who said they knew God represented that God lost – the devil won. And they needed to help God out by spreading false rumors, putting out false prophecies, touching and agreeing and calling those things that were not . . .etc. to have their own way. The emails, false accusations, false prophecies and blind hatred have divided the Body of Christ and the light of Evangelical Christianity is darkened in the eyes of the world because of it. When will they see. It is as though they have decided they will do this evil and repent of it later–after they have had their desire upon Obama and his supporters. They refuse to hear the God they claim to speak for. The Tea Party carried demonic posters of Obama that any true Christian would have been ashamed of. There was no reprimand. At best, silent agreement. They were angry at God. They refused to hear Him any more. They went on and on bearing false witness and acting out their anger at God.

    Instead of taking a look into their own hearts and cleansing themselves of the root of their blind hatred they have taken a turn for the worse and what light remained in them continues to darken.

    What will they do now? Because Obama will win this election in 2012. I cannot fathom the reaction this November. Will the true Christian please stand up!

  96. it is UNFATHOMABLE Andrew that you are apologizing for speaking truth. Jesus’ ways are NOT mans ways and everything Jesus spoke from the Father was meant to disrupt the “norm” – we are NOT to love the world or anything of the world including countries, flags, governments, etc. This is why so few are really HIS. Their responses are OBVIOUS and shine a bright light on HOW FEW HEAR HIS VOICE AND ONLY SPEAK WHAT THEY HEAR HIM SPEAKING. Because those who know the Lord truly and wholly know HIS WORDS and do not argue from self, are NOT offended, do not do anything more than humbly listen, receive, pray. The church is such a mess and it breaks the heart of God for to say “I’m coming for a church without spot wrinkle or blemish”….at this rate and because of so much SELF AND FLESH AND PRIDE it’ll be a long long long time before He returns. GROW UP in Christ! Get HUMBLE. Get HOLY. Get righteousness – learn HIM and HIS ways and NEVER EVER SPEAK – to preach, to respond, unless JESUS GIVES YOU UTTERANCE. It is OBVIOUS that MOST DO NOT HEAR because Jesus would not render forth so many different responses – NO! You are speaking from your flesh, your pride, your worldly wisdom. So utterly disappointing.

  97. teresa Jul 17th 2012

    Amen Les!
    And to all, We have sown and have reaped this leadership.
    And certainly if we truly turned to the Lord with all of our hearts, as in Joel 1 and 2, and cry out for Pres. Obama to truly know Jesus, and not just some philosphy of lifestyle, with just as much passion as we would intercede for our own brother, sister, parents or children’s souls, we would get more results than all the energy that has been put into politics.
    So funny that we think we can energize our works and save this country.
    Only Jesus changes hearts, His gospel in purity changes nations.

  98. Good article, Andrew, but why would any true Christian consider voting? Which evil man would you vote for? Voting is not in the Kingdom of God!

  99. Lynn 2 Jul 17th 2012

    WOW! where do I start? First and foremost I come in peace and not to run anyone down and yet I come in a spirit to hopefully incourage you.
    .
    What is missing here is truely a WITNESS! and I see a negative witness here to one of the Largest Groups of Americans ever – I see an opertunity like no other-and I have grabbed ahold of this great oppertunity – and have seen seen a wonderful respons.

    See, I have placed myself right in the middle of the TEA PARTY- after must prayer -thousands of them – the last three months- you might say I am in essance a part of them at least their CRY and in my heart – which might suprise you – yes Iam in a mixture some born again believers some lost – some newley saved having seen the truth through the WITNESS of myself and a few whom have been witnessing to so many.

    NOT ONCE – have I heard the Lords name used in vain among so many – a few cuss word, but The passion the have to see America restored to her foundinG fathers who fought for ouR freedom of our christian faith based on our bible not the Quran – not – Joseph Smith – has been real encouraging – and their cry so many is to – KEEP GOD IN AMERICA – see there is a Morman agenda for America – and so many have been lied to thatt the Morman relegion is Christian- so this alone has been a huge part of my ministry to -RESCUE These believers from the lie- some whoe’s pastors have told them Mormans are christians. Evan though Mormons teach – Jesus blood was not all sufficant and some people have to shed their own blood for their own salvation and that God was a child whom climbed the Morman Ladder to righteous and was then given the earth to rule and he and his wife created through sexual encounters satan Jesus and the human sperm for all peopleteaching esus and satan are brothers.

    This is pure blasphemy against God, Jesus – and the Holy Spirt – whom overshadowed Mary in her conception not sex between God and his suposed wife – this is all confirmed in the Morman doctrines and Mormonism is oneof the fastest growing relegions/CULTS so they have to be exposed and this iswhat Iam doing toone of theLargest Groupsofpeople inAmerica – Now if I were to join in and comdem them I would not have the platform I have been given and the open door I believe the Lordhas planned for several years ago and has now give me – I speak this in Love and not condemination.

    Yes the Word of God tells us we are not of this world, Praise God we must be eternally minded – but being a Witness is who we are – and we are told we are too occupy- and go and make disciples.

    I learned this when ministering in the Aids Wards – to may gay people with Aids – whom were dying giveing them hope in a future with Jesus bringing a few to repentance and a promised future.

    We have a High Priest Mormon running for office of the Presidnrt of America – who he and the Morman church have an agenda for America a NWO aganda to advance the Mormon Church on the whole earth with the US under Morman Hiarchie and the secret oaths Mitt Romney has made to the Morman Church. This is what many in the the Tea Party are waking up too realizeand they do not want a false god protrayed in America – this is a wonderful start for ministry… Please prayer warriors pPray for me and the few whom areministering to one of the largest Groupsin America and pray for America -Inowhavefour great grandchidren-I amtryelyfighting to KeepGod in America and peopleseyes are being opened to our God and the true plan of salvation who knows this could help open a door towards revival the interest certainly is greatso great I amspeding several hours a day ministering and fighting for America to have God once again and that starts with lives saved.no time now for muchese.

    THE POLITICAL AGENDA OF THE MORMON CHURCH ©

    http://www.janishutchinson.com/agenda.html

    UNELECTABLE, MORMON BISHOP ROMNEY CANNOT BEAT OBAMA

    http://youtu.be/fGAhiVutAx4

    Please do look at these linkseven if you have to copy paste
    .
    God Bless, Lynn

  100. Lori T Jul 17th 2012

    Concerning P.S.S from Kathleen ….. Amen!

  101. Catrina Jul 18th 2012

    Mat 11:16 “What can I say about the people who live today? What are they like? The people today are like children sitting in the marketplace. One group of children calls to the other group,
    Mat 11:17 ‘We played flute music for you, but you did not dance; we sang a funeral song, but you were not sad.’
    Mat 11:18 Why do I say people are like that? Because John came, not eating like other people or drinking wine, and people say, ‘He has a demon inside him.’
    Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and people say, ‘Look at him! He eats too much and drinks too much wine. He’s a friend of tax collectors and other sinners.’ But wisdom is shown to be right by what it does.”

    I don’t care what Christians in America do or don’t do these days, there is always some other Christian or Christian group that will find fault with them.

    American Christians are accused of either being too apathetic towards the evil in our society or too involved trying to do something about it. There is just no pleasing some folks.

  102. It sounds like carnal mindedness is sweeping the Christian right (esp tea party), in the USA, (not that i know much about it really myself). Politics and religion are two of the things that get people most passionate and/or irrate tho anyway I suppose.

    However if we are the light of the world, and the US church is this for the USA, then surely polatics is following/reflecting existing spiritual trends there which are clearly moving in the wrong direction, not towards revival, but towards being open to increasing deception and compromise/worldliness.

    I dont think that as Christians of the western world we were ever really mature enough to handle the spiritual gifts – released during the charismatic renewl in the 1970s +, as this has instead led to so many seeking them to promote themselves in “ministries of the Spirit” – self seeking and selfish ambition in this world. Its been like an epidemic of attemtpting to use Gods HOLY Spirit to advance the self it seesm to me (in many ways). And maybe weare all tainted in some way at some time by these attitudes as they are so prevalemnt now it almostr seems normal. Accompanied by MERCHANTDISING IN GODS CHURCH.

  103. Linda B Jul 18th 2012

    Andrew,
    Phil. 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy–meditate on these things.
    Thankful for your voice that seems to be a voice crying out in the wilderness… Go after truth, you hit the nail on the head, again… continue to be who you are… I am fully with you. Blessings Brother!

  104. “””Was it wrong for the pilgrims to leave Europe in order to establish a country in which they could worship the God of the Bible and not be subject to one state religion? Should they have just stayed at home and just submitted to the king and his rules?
    Thank goodness these brave souls decided to risk it all (lives and fortunes) to come to the shores of America and establish The United States. Under your belief, they should have just stayed in Europe and just submitted to the king.
    I think most American’s are upset with the realization that there are forces here that are attempting to destroy the freedoms that hundreds of thousands died for to give us. I do believe in prayer but think that in addition, we should also act. Witnessing to the lost is extremely important of course as is standing up to those who believe in a different direction for our country.
    Some people may be over the top in their reteric, but the Tea Party has never been promoted as a “Christian” party…..many people who belong are not Christian. I have gone to many events and they are very respectful & responsible
    Perhaps you should focus your attention on England and try to help your brothers and sisters who are faced to an alarming Islamic influence.
    Glad the founder’s didn’t cower down and just accept the idea’s of the king.”””

    True, Suzanne… I bet none here are opposed to having and partaking of the national freedom they have in America, yet they are only against those who try to maintain it. This shows how hard it is for Christians to find a balance in just about anything. If you partake of the freedom you have here and enjoy it, yet are against those who defend it… what does that make you? A parasite? Yes, there are people who idolize this nation and political figures, but has all balance and common sense gone out the window. Even Paul used his rights as a Roman Citizen. It is amazing how hard balance comes to the Christian world.

  105. tenderwarrior Jul 18th 2012

    Andrew you say your article wasn’t political but when you comment that American Christians favor the rich and don’t care about healthcare for the poor isn’t that political. Those are two of the biggest political debates going on right now. If you open a political discussion expect political answers. You say you love America but I have often felt an anti-American sentiment in your writing

  106. To Catrina 2 ABOVE; Considering what an appalling state of affairs now exists here spiritually if christians in the usa (and western world) cannot accept comments/criticism of this nature from well intentioned fellow believers, and consider what others are saying, then really what has become of them??? Such analysis is essential as we are not headed in the right direction now, and burying our heads in the sand wont help – it’l just make things worse.

  107. To tenderwarrior, 2 above: I cant help myself here – I might dissagree with some of Andrew Stroms revival beliefs and criticise these myself but how can anyone seriously accuse him of being anti American – thats just plain ridiculous.

    [Actually this political debate does seem to be stirring up a lot of antagonism – if feel my own sheckles rising here and its not even something I focus on normally.Im going back to bed].

  108. teresa Jul 18th 2012

    Paul used his rights of a Roman citizen to defend an individual, himself. He never used them to get a man into office.
    He never stopped preaching Jesus, and didn’t preach or endorse politicals.
    The church isn’t taking care of the poor’s medical problems, we do need compassion for them. Especially, the widows and orphans.
    Or would you have them laying out on beds in front of churches begging for money?

  109. Andrew,

    You should not be compelled to apologize for offending someone who read your last article. However, I do not take that away from you if you feel you should – You are a good man and you are a prophet. I guess you can expect to be caught up short

    I happened to agree with what you wrote about the Tea Party.
    I should have been among the ones to support you by responding to your article.
    I apologize.

    I’ve felt an edge in my spirit about how things are going within this TeaParty movement and within our government – these are signs of the pending implosion of our nation, I think. As Americans we cannot stand to think of ourselves as less than #1. There is a great deal of patriotic pride mixed and mingled in our American Christian heritage and spirit. It is hard to separate the two. I would go so far to say it is even painful for some to admit or accept.

    The fact remains – we just happen to be temporary residents of this nation while we wait to go Home.

    Thanks for speaking out as a prophet who loves Americans.

  110. Don Bell Jul 18th 2012

    Andrew,
    I am currently a businessman in the State of Washington. I also served in the Marine Corps for 20 years including two tours in Vietnam. I was not a God-fearing man bank then, but a tremendous born-again experience happened shortly after I retired from the Corps that changed my life forever. I became a strong patriot for Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God.
    I do respect the concerns of those who are advocates of the Tea-Party and I do love my country – but I want you to know that I wholeheartedly agree with your position that it is not about America or this world – it is about the Kingdom of God.
    I’ve written and presented a message titled “Memorial Day – 2012″ which reflects the patriot contrasts between the army in the Kingdom of God and the armies of the world.
    I’ll send it to you to do as you want – post it or discard it.

    Your brother in Christ,
    Don Bell
    Retired USMC Major
    Author: “Equipping Christian Warriors for End-Time Tribulation”

  111. DoubleDutch Jul 18th 2012

    I am getting more and more turned off by Christians, at times I hesitate to call myself one because of the association that goes with it. Honestly, Christians who get mad, use bad language, get insultive in a disagreement? Jesus never fought to be ‘right’ He just ‘was’. Where’s the fruit of Jesus in your daily life people?

  112. I don’t suppose we will ever agree on this issue. We’re all at different places in our walk with God. He shows us different things at different times. I think very differently on certain issues now, than I did ten years ago. That’s OK. We’re all in process and life is a journey, isn’t it?

    According to our experience, background, knowledge of God and his word, we will all see things differently. The key is not to get riled up about others who don’t see things the way I do, but to take everything to Father, and leave it with Him. I may change my mind one day. Or the other person may.

    “All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.” (Phil.3:15-16)

    The command to love, however, is for every day – and to obey what I know God is calling ME to do TODAY. Maybe He calls some to engage politically. Maybe He calls others not to. That’s ok. But whether we do one or the other, let’s always love each other. There is a danger in political activism, as in any other sphere. The enemy loves to sow dischord among us, if we will let him. Whatever the Lord calls us to do, let’s keep our eyes on Jesus.

  113. Andrew,
    what you are running up against is idolatry. Believers have exalted an idol to worship and it is America. What does America stand for? Is it for freedom, liberty and justice? Jesus stood for justice and when the scales were tilted, he demanded that they be made balanced. America is not balanced because in the core of America there is a seething of idolatry. The eruption of molten sin is seen with ashes upon the faces of all. It lavishes itself with greed, but we cannot deny that this nation helps those in need. Freedom, liberty and justice that is rooted in paganism will always lead to slavery. This is why we find believers trapped in crevices of political power struggles. Our true power comes from God almighty, for He is the One that destroys the fortresses of evil men.

    Debbie

  114. Here’s a quote from http://www.cuttingedge.org–excellent site

    ——– July 17, 2012 ——–

    “The Throne of Fools: For Whom Should Christians Vote?”

    by Bill Schnoebelen

    What is a citizen to do? Americans are being forced to decide between a modern-day Stalin or a new American Ayatollah. Although appearing as politically opposite, Mitt Romney and Barack Obama are dark mirrored images of each other. Each candidate is equally committed to take America into the New World Order, despite their supposed differences.

    On one hand, Barack Obama foolishly endorses crippling socialist values that have already brought down countries in Europe – along with his veiled Muslim beliefs. On the other hand, Mitt Romney (a Temple high priest), believes Mormon prophecies foretelling that the US Constitution would ‘hang by a thread’, and an LDS leader would rise to save the nation and turn it into a theocracy – putting his faith in a discredited, false ‘scripture’ – the Book of Mormon!

    What can be done to save America from almost certain economic and spiritual disaster? What are Bible believing Christians to do with such an electoral choice?

    This DVD is one deserving of discerning Christians buying in bulk and giving away to friends, family and co-workers. We must take advantage of this election opportunity to reach out with the true Gospel and Biblical message to the unsaved and the deceived Christian. Never before has public interest been so high concerning Mormonism.

  115. Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction. Proverbs 31:8

  116. I just wanted to say I agree with this post, but your previous one did cross some lines (I didn’t respond to that one). I do not generally watch any news, nor do I listen to talk radio. I try to stay away from politics, because to me it is just “a chasing after the wind”. We know this world is destined to destruction.

    Anyway, I agreed with the parts of your previous post which exhorted believers not to get too wrapped up in politics, especially at the expense of our witness. But you stepped on toes when you accused “conservative Christians” of not caring about the poor when it comes to healthcare reform, and “siding with the rich against the poor”.

    I think those comments are why some are so upset. And those are the same unfounded (I think) accusations the “liberals” level at “conservatives”.

  117. I am not a member of the TaxedEnoughParty but from what I can tell the thrust of their concerns is about profligate borrowing and spending by a renegade government (run by both parties, Democrat and Republican alike) whereby corrupt politicians are using taxpayers’ money plus trillions more that are being borrowed against the future of our children and grandchildren to buy votes and pay off various constituencies and get themselves re-elected.
    To call this “poor stewardship” is an understatement.
    What would a Christian organization or church or ministry be compelled to do if gross mismanagement of its funds and financial malfeasance were discovered? That organization or church or ministry would be compelled to ACT —- quickly and with authority even if doing so was upsetting and caused disruption in the organization.
    This government has robbed, cheated and wreaked destruction on the American people and Christians and Non Christians alike are standing against that criminal malfeasance and misuse of power.

    How much is a trillion?
    A million seconds is 12 days.
    A billion seconds is 31 years.
    A trillion seconds is 31,688 years.

    The federal debt of the U.S was under ten trillion when BHO took office in 2009. From George Washington to George W. Bush the federal debt NEVER rose higher than ten trillion.
    It is now at about sixteen trillion dollars…..Obama jacked it up that much in about 3.5 years.
    We have enslaved future generations to Obama’s profligate spending and borrowing.
    It is our duty to speak out and stop it.
    We don’t know how Romney would govern but we DO know how Obama has governed and would continue to govern if given another term.

  118. Diane Roberts Jul 18th 2012

    I have been saying exactly what you have said since 1980. The big problem in the church is a confusion between the “Two Kingdom’s,” God’s and man’s. And, I say this as a life-long conservative Republican. A good book on the Two Kingdom subject is by David VanDrunen and is entitled, ” Living in God’s Two Kingdoms.”

  119. http://frankviola.org/2012/07/04/obamacare/#more-9976

    http://www.thehealthcoop.com/
    [email protected]

    Dear Andrew,
    Some time ago I wrote to you about the above article and the previous comment on healthcare reform reminded me about it. I imagine you get thousands of e-mails, so I didn’t expect a reply, but perhaps some who are struggling financially in the US and who have poor or no health insurance would find the links a useful start. I hope they will get passed on to those who need them.

  120. TheDude Jul 18th 2012

    Andrew: I think the message you meant to convey was for followers of Jesus Christ not to get involved in politics. Voting is not getting involved. Like you, I have no problem if people want to vote. I personally made the decision not to vote. At the same time, I don’t complain about what the government does. If one believes in the sovereignty of God, they will realize that it doesn’t matter if we vote or not. God doesn’t need us to clean up the United States or any other country for that matter. He wants our hearts.

    It is a total waste of time to point out the errors and falsehoods of the Tea Party, or any other political group for that matter. All that does is make people caught up in those political movements feel personally attacked. In retrospect, it would probably would have been better if you had merely encouraged your readers to abstain from political activity as opposed to appearing to attack the Tea Party movement (which I know you weren’t doing). In the end though, I commend you for the courage to speak up on a topic that needs to be brought up.

    My heart weeps for those who have fallen for the enemy’s deception and are utilizing their time with political activities. They are like the pharisees of Jesus’ time, waiting for a political messiah.

    Folks like Andrew are merely messengers, not salesmen. Only God can lift the scales from your eyes and show you the truth. We are merely heralds. What you do with the message is up to you.

  121. Teresa, perhaps a demonstration of faith in God and the healing and deliverance there-of would be the answer to mankinds “medical problems” and inability to pay for it. I mean come on, on one hand it is “worldly” to be involved in worldly politics, and on the other hand Andrew and followers are advocating the healthcare system. If you truly aren’t of this world then why is that? Isn’t that hypocrisy?

  122. Kathleen Wa. that song was right on the money……

  123. I meant to comment on the Tea Party article but this will serve for both. I 100% agree with you about the rude things being sent around by Christians. ” Love is not rude…”
    I just last night read in Derek Prince’s book ” Shaping History Through Prayer and Fasting” about the HUGE difference between the Pilgims and the Puritans. Anyone offended might want to read this book and see the testimonies he personally writes about how God answered due to fervent prayer and fasting in both Derek’s life and the Pilgrim’s. History is surely repeating itself so we who are Believers ( I stress Believers) must get back to the discipline of prayer and fasting to see change.
    Derek mentioned that hardly any Christians in America even knew about what he had discovered. Another resource he said that explained this was William Bradford’s book, ” Of Plymouth Plantation”.
    It is amazing how things really don’t change from generation to generation. Things just morph into more sophistication. Barabbas is still on the loose and he is in the church and Jesus is still being crucified by the ones He came to save.
    There is one thing I do not agree with and that is your apology for offending “anyone”. The truth offends the lie believed and I don’t see any place in scripture that we are taught to apologize for speaking the truth in love. It was love that was comforting but also removes cancer ie death.
    Those offended need to forgive you and like Paul says they will eventually see clearly if they stay in forgiveness.
    If God told you to write those things for our correction then as a prophetic voice WRITE ON! with no apologies.
    Jesus as our example never once disrespected authority. He only manifested the holiness of God and zeal for Father’s house consumed Him. It was Legalistic Religion He fought since it was not a true representation of the Godhead and was keeping His sheep out of the true Kingdom! ( and still does today)
    No place did He speak evil of the Government Israel was under.
    God used the most evil heathen Kings to bring correction to His people and since He is the same yesterday, today, and forever I would imagine He is still doing that.

    His Word to us ALL from the cross was ” Father forgive them they know not what they do” Luke 23:34
    So whether we agree or disagree Forgive and let’s be open to the Lord showing us what we might be missing.
    Judi

  124. Andrew,

    I haven’t even read your last article yet, but I heartily concur with your point here that nothing political is going to change America for the better. The two parties are just two arms of the same machine, aimed at dividing people about things that don’t matter, and they always have been. Witness this:

    Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh, the father of the famed aviator, wrote in 1892:

    History repeats itself in regular cycles. This truth is well known among our principal men who are engaged in forming an imperialism of the world. While they are doing this, the people must be kept in a state of political antagonism. The question of tariff reform must be urged through the organization known as the Democratic Party, and the question of protection with the reciprocity must be forced to view through the Republican Party. By thus dividing voters, we can get them to expand their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us, except as teachers to the common herd. Thus, by discrete action, we can secure all that has been so generously planned and successfully accomplished.

    There you have it: it’s all about division and keeping us on the sidelines. I’ll pass, thank you. Better things to do.

  125. Catrina Jul 18th 2012

    @ Jamie, Oh I see what you are saying and I agree:

    It seems a bit hypocritical to be against the worldliness of politics, but embrace the worldly healthcare system that politics (the government) is now trying to run and force upon every American, Christian and non-believer.

  126. The problem seems to be that the minstry of the tea party is not holy. It shows in their manners.

    As far as revival goes you are unlikely to get one in a church that wants God to accept and tolerate them being into the occult.

  127. Lynn 2 Jul 18th 2012

    One more VERY IMPORTANT thing that the ConservativeTea Party stands for and that they are fighting for besides keeping God in America- is- PRO -LIFE and MARRIAGE BETWEEN ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN- is this not worth complimenting them and encourageing them for, along with our witness? Someone here said we are the light and I might add in a dark world -this even has gone a whole lot further – Senators and Delegates are also hearing the truth and the message of the gospel and our mention of calling America to repentance even several Canadates and many ordanary American people God is blessing us to reach across this country-GOD HAS OPENED A HUGE DOOR and I Praise him.

  128. Trying to be Hopeful Jul 18th 2012

    I’d just like to share this here…Back in 1972, I read a paperback book written by a leading spokesperson (unsaved) for a controversial U.S.-based Conservative education/activist group which has been around since the late 1950s and is heavily into Conspiracist ideas. (I’m not saying they’re totally wrong, but a lot of what they preach is very un-Scriptural.) At the end of the book, he stated that any reader who did not join the group and participate in it fully might be denied entrance into Heaven by God on the grounds of “having contributed to America’s downfall”. Years later, I read a piece by a member of another U.S.-based outfit advocating a form of Dominionism (absolute dictatorial Christian-led control of government, business, and every other institution in every nation), in which he implied that, if everything done in every institution in any given nation (especially government and business) is not 1000% in accordance with Scripture at all times, it’s almost as if all Christians and non-Christians in that nation are “without God, without His involvement, and without any hope” until Christ’s Second Coming.

  129. Lynn 2 Jul 18th 2012

    QUOTE DONNA :
    We must take advantage of this election opportunity to reach out with the true Gospel and Biblical message to the unsaved and the deceived Christian. Never before has public interest been so high concerning Mormonism.

    THANK YOU DONNA -this is what I am trying to get across – there is a spiritual awareness and hunger on the rise – and the enemy is out to destroy it God may just be giving us opertunities here just letting folks know about Romneys Mormonism is an open door to speak truth and the true salvation message and to free many christians from thelie of Mormons being christians which is a trap of the enemy – somaysaid theynever knew andthe Mormonsdo have an agandaand have been raising Romney since age 13 to be our President.

  130. If only the Tea Party will call for fasting and prayer to seek God’s face and to hear His voice, some of them might be turned to the truth. If a fasting, praying group will receive answers from God that they will obey, they will gain the ability to be a light to the nations. We must never assume to know what God will do before hearing from Him. His ways are unsearchable and far past finding out (Romans 11:33). We must not “know already” who God will use, what he/she will look or sound like, of what nationality or ethnic background by our own prejudices led by fear. Let God do the choosing. God is The Creator of all people. Let God be The God and we be the people. Those who will submit to God will be His people.

  131. I agree with Andrew. I was caught off guard with the love of my country but it isn’t balancing out with what scripture teaches us, we are citizens of heaven and need to fight from our knees. It’s awful what’s happening yet prophecy says worse is coming upon unrepentant people and nations. It’s time to get on the sheep side of the isle instead of the goat side. Our only weapon against evil is the Word of God so stick with your foundation and stop riding the fence with one foot in the spiritual and the other foot in the world, all you’ll end up with is a sore crotch and looking rather silly to a dying world. Every time words are spewed in anger, the devil does a tap dance on your head. Keep preaching truth Andrew, we indeed are blessed to have been born in America but she has turned her back on God and we’re seeing the fruit of that.

  132. Andrew, I am an American and there is no need to apologize. God’s true word will offend and will convict the souls of men and women. I appreciate your boldness and listening to the Holy Spirit, to make the truth be known. God bless and keep up the good fight in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ

  133. Wonderful
    Satan thinks what you said is worth attacking big time
    Rejoice
    You must have got it right
    Keep attacking them demons
    Blessings

  134. THOSE OF YOU who believe it’s wrong to enter into ‘ugly public discourse’, why are you posting here? Shouldn’t you be quietly praying and trusting God?

    One of the problems with Andrew’s emails is that they address the US politics of healthcare and poverty, putting forth a left-wing (political) perspective, but then he says those on the ‘right’ should not get involved in politics, and should shun right-wing media!

    hmmm….anyone else see an unbalanced approach here?

    I encourage Christians to be as Holy and as Spiritual as they know how, and to enter into the political fray as a force for good, a force for God.

    Our hope is not in politics, just as it’s not in healthcare or the eradication of poverty, but we have the God-given responsibility to do what we can while we can.

    Yes, we want spiritual, Holy, revival, that changes mens hearts, but we also want to do good in the world. Let’s not be like the Pharisee who walked by on the other side, while no doubt praying for the poor guy, and hoping he’d find revival.

    peace,
    Simon

  135. OK, Simon, here’s the truth: whether you’re talking politics, law, medicine (petrochemical pharmaceutical witchcraft), education (separation of children from their parents and alienation from God), or “church” (the institutional idolatrous kind), it’s all ungodly. So, is there a Godly way to do an ungodly thing?

  136. Andrew,
    Thanks for sharing. I am adamantly against much of Obama’s agenda but long story short very much agree that if we are really going to make things better it can’t be with still more mud-slinging. I do believe voluntary abortion is a grave moral evil, and that mandatory health insurance for everyone (or how it is being implemented) is a violation of freedom of religion and of basic human rights. That said, the real problem and what makes this wrong is only being encouraged when we de-humanize our leaders. Not to mention we are shooting ourselves in the foot, making it so these important issues won’t be properly addressed. It is a shame, in much need of prayer. I don’t always agree with everything you say, but most of it, and like with many things … I wish things like this would be heard. It is an offense against Christian charity. Thanks for sharing and God bless.

  137. Averyl Jul 18th 2012

    Have a read of Francis Schaeffer’s “Christian Manifesto” on http://www.peopleforlife.org/francis.html

  138. Frank S. Jul 18th 2012

    Keep standing Andrew. Be strong in the Lord and in the strength of HIS might!

    When the US church turns away from our idolatry and starts crying out to God alone for His mercy, repenting of the comfort, ease, and prosperity of the American Way which enables us to watch our movies, have our “socials”, practice divorce, and have a form of godliness without God’s presence; when the leaders of “system religion” begin to allow the Spirit of God to be Lord of their churches – only then will we see change in this nation.

    I fear for The United State of America in that we have all of the symptoms of a people who have been given over by God as outlined in Romans 1. The only hope is Christ – the Spirit of Holiness in us and the question before every American who calls themselves “christian” is “How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow Him: but if Baal, then follow him.”

    Keep proclaiming the truth and please – DON’T APOLOGIZE anymore for obeying God!

  139. Anna Justice Jul 18th 2012

    Andrew says:
    Obama is not my “friend”.
    I simply don’t believe any President should be spoken about in the venomous way that US Christians do.
    It is totally “off” – totally un-Christlike.
    Bless you!
    Andrew

    Who is this CHRIST you are talking about?
    Is it the Messiah of the New Testament scriptures?
    Is it the same person who whipped the merchants at church??
    Is it the same guy who called the leaders in charge (pharisees) venomous names??
    …here are just a few of the things he called them:
    hypocrites
    vipers
    dead men
    children of hell
    blind fools
    unclean
    murderers
    extortioners
    serpents
    …and that is just in Matt 23.

    Maybe your idea of christ-like is different than the Bible’s idea of Christ-like? Do you think christ-like means to be nice to everyone all the time? If so, how can you do that and be a prophet???
    What would Jesus do???
    Sometimes he would call them names and beat them with a whip. Sometimes he would tell the people who wanted something from him..NO.
    We (Americans) will not stand by as the godless destroy our nation. We will stand in the name of all that is GOOD by the power of the Holy Spirit, without fear and without apology. We will give honor to whom honor is due.
    A man called president is no more entitled to my unquestioning reverence than the pharisees that Jesus verbally exposed. Just as the men who withstood the firey furnace, there are those in America who are willing to defy a godless king.

    It is not venomous to say that someone is a fraud.
    You have no problem calling the christians of America ‘venomous’ and ‘unChristlike’ but take issue with someone somewhere calling Obama a fraud?? Are you aware there is credible proof the man was not born in this country and that there are witnesses in his own family to verify he was born in Kenya? Don’t you think that constitutes fraud?
    There are many who do…and they are not venomous to say so.

    Evil advances when good men do nothing. There are times when good men must gather together. There is a time for everything under the sun. Eccl 3

  140. Hey Andrew, a fellow Kiwi here,

    The answer is easy….In Christ’s day there was Jesus and Barnabas. Which one was political and which one was spiritual? Which one wanted to overthrow the Roman kingdom and which one wanted to overthrow the kingdom of Satan?

    We live in the last days and changing governments isn’t going to change the state of peoples hearts. And who are the Americans going to vote for? Mitt Romney? he is a Mormon! which is a false religion.

    Morality and Conservatism are not the same thing! I agree with voting for a party that come the closest to the morals of my faith but I am under no illusion that Politics is a very poor subsitute for revival and changing man’s heart!

    America seems so polarised now not by there faith and beliefs, but by there political allegance. To me it appears Americans aren’t Christian republicans but they are Republican chrstians, the same with Christian conservatives but being Conservative christians. There is a big difference between the two. One puts the emphasis on Politics and man’s endeavours and the other on faith and God’s will.

    To a lesser extent the same thing is happening in New Zealand, yes God raises up leaders whether they be heathen or Chrisitan but his focus isn’t public policy because he knows that will never go deep enough, his focus is men and women’s hearts. Why do feel the need to make the playing field christian before we can change the world. The end days show the world is going to be anything but christian, and we have to exhort, rebuke, admonish in season and out of season!

    God Bless

  141. Tiffany Jul 18th 2012

    Andrew, I said before and I’ll say again, you are a TRUE prophet of God and TRUE follower of Christ because you speak the things the Lord has called you to share and not to please “itching ears”, so I really do not feel there’s a need for an apology but, your heart is good in that you desire not to offend anyone. I understand this but I just say to continue speaking BOLDLY what God has laid upon your heart. There is always going to be those who will be offended, but there will also be some hearts you’ll touch and the Lord knows exactly who needs to hear a certain message. Andrew, I am thankful to the Lord for men of God like yourself and I wish with all my heart there were more like you! God BLESS you for your faithfulness in serving the Lord NOT man! EVERYTHING you’ve shared here I agree 100% Thank you again!

  142. Michael Jul 18th 2012

    I thought it was a great article, and those I forwarded it to also thought so. I have long held the belief that God has moved on from America, and his doing his major work elsewhere. Americans don’t like to hear that, as many in their nation are very proud. But today America exports one of the great evils of the world (Hollywood) has been the major war monger in the world (starting 26 wars since the end of WWII) and worst of all, has been the progenitor of the prosperity Gospel that has nearly ruined many fledgling churches in developing countries.

    Well done for speaking out, you have spoken without malice or bitterness. People never like to hear the truth, not any of us.

  143. Terry P Jul 18th 2012

    I agree with you totally Andrew. We as Christians are not to respond, “eye for an eye or tooth for a tooth”. Anyone who does that has not even grasped the basics of New Testament teaching. We are to walk in humility and love, rather than employ slander, back biting, gossip and base retaliation. These are rather weak forms of weaponry.
    We must not stray from our first love. Prayer and the Word of God is the overcoming power which we are to engage in!
    We should rejoice that the battle has already been won at Calvary.
    Time to focus on the truth, instead of falling into deception.
    Again, thanks Andrew for a quality article!
    God bless you my friend and brother!

  144. Dave Moore Jul 18th 2012

    I agree with some of Michael’s points. I don’t accept that God has moved on from America. I don’t believe we ever had a monopoly–we just thought/think as much. Our arrogance is being exposed.

    Also, Hollywood is not categorically evil. Just like our food, most of it appeals to baser appetites instead of health, but the industry is important, even necessary.\

    We do fund the military industrial complex to the detriment of civilization, and, yes, the message of wealth-for-all is truly Americanistic.

  145. Ben,

    I think we should go about ‘ungodly’ tasks – whether work, school, market or politics – in as Holy a manner as we are able; with humility and prayer. But sometimes life requires you raise your voice and put some stick about. Even Jesus did this when clearing the temple.

    Many of us go to work in ungodly companies, and work for ungodly people, and we make them rich just trying to put food on our own tables. We have to engage with the world, and have to use worldly ways and means, while trying to act, and represent Christ, in a decent manner.

    I also support our involvement in World War Two, and the removal of Hitler. With occasional God given exceptions, I don’t think all Christians should be pacifists. Is there a Godly way to go about fighting a war?

    I think the problem for Andrew and co. is that the TEA Party is viewed as a bit ‘right-wing extremist’ and ‘unChristian’. And Andrew appears to think that US Christians have their hope in politics.

    On the first issue, I’d say Andrew may be right, but so what? If we think the TEA party is doing the right thing, and may save the US from poverty and destruction, shouldn’t we get involved and fight for the poor? Andrew sees the TEA party as a fight against the poor, but that’s just his left-wing perspective. On the ‘right’ we believe that unless the TEA party succeeds, the US will eventually go the way of Greece, and then the US will have poverty like you never dreamed possible.

    On the second issue, Andrew is wrong. US Christians don’t have their hope in politics, or the TEA party. Your hope is not in your work but you go every day. The TEA party is flawed and imperfect, just like every institution – including the church – but we still use them as frameworks, as vehicles for purposes that we believe are God’s will.

    Many Christians on this site are hyper-spiritualizing politics, as if we are above them. Yet we are not above, work, school, the market etc. so why are we above politics?

    Again, I encourage Christians to get involved in politics, don’t walk by on the other side. Be an outspoken force for good; while representing Christ as best you are able.

    Thank God for the Dietrich Bonhoeffer and William Wilberforce, et al, whose speeches and letters were not all humble and fluffy and kind. They were often forceful, strident and a call to action.

    Peace,
    Simon

  146. I Ken1, am just posting something that someone else just sent me, as i like Jack Kelley….Ken1.

    THIS IS AN AWESOME COMMENTARY BY JACK KELLEY AND SO VERY RIGHT ON!!! In case you have not read this yet, it is well worth reading. It settles so many debates about whether we should pray for this country and it’s corrupt leaders. I for one just cannot do this, and now I understand why.

    I especially loved this sentence in his article: “We should be so passionately yearning to leave here that our feet barely touch the ground when we walk.”

    Don’t Pray For America
    Commentary by Jack Kelley

    “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” (1Cor. 2:9)

    In the time just before the Babylonian captivity, the people of Judah were certain that God would not permit the Babylonians to conquer them. “After all,” they said, “we’re God’s people. His Temple is in our midst. Surely He will spare us.” Their leaders encouraged them to think this way and false prophets assured them that everything would soon be normal again. Even when the Babylonian armies were at the very gates of Jerusalem they were expecting God to miraculously deliver them.
    In fact, God had actually told them that if they turned back to Him, he would spare them.

    If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever. But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless. (Jere. 7:5-8)
    But they took no notice of how their behavior had offended Him, thinking only that because they claimed to be His people He would save them. Their leaders had told them that God would spare them and because that’s what they wanted to hear, that’s what they believed.

    Finally, on three separate occasions God told Jeremiah to stop praying for them because He wasn’t going to listen any more. (Jere. 7:16, 11:14, 14:11) They had gone too far. Only a few years after a national revival they had quickly slid back into their idolatry and for God it was the last straw.

    God’s third discussion with Jeremiah on this matter is worth reviewing.
    Then the LORD said to me, “Do not pray for the well-being of this people. Although they fast, I will not listen to their cry; though they offer burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Instead, I will destroy them with the sword, famine and plague.”

    But I said, “Ah, Sovereign LORD, the prophets keep telling them, ‘You will not see the sword or suffer famine. Indeed, I will give you lasting peace in this place.’ “
    Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries (worthless divinations) and the delusions of their own minds. (Jere. 14:11-14)

    It was too late. They had missed their last chance. Even if the people did agree to mend their ways and come back to Him now, He knew their hearts had not changed. They would just be doing whatever they could to avoid the judgment. His decision had been made.

    God is merciful but He is also just. He can’t go on overlooking sin forever. There comes a time when He has to act, even though He would rather not. It brings Him no joy, and He’s always looking for a way out that won’t compromise His values.
    For example, while He was on the way to judge Sodom and Gomorrah Abraham engaged Him on this very point. “Will you spare the cities if there are 50 righteous people there,” Abraham asked. “Yes,” God replied, “For 50 I will spare the cities.” Then Abraham progressively worked the number down until they finally agreed that even if only 10 righteous people were found there God would spare everyone.

    (Genesis 18:22-33) Well, there weren’t 10 righteous people there so the judgment was confirmed. But there was one and even though He wasn’t bound to, God insisted that the one righteous person had to be removed from the time and place of the judgment before it could begin. The one was Lot. (Genesis 19:21-22)

    Whether in Sodom or in Jerusalem, no one knew in advance that God was about to run out of patience because He doesn’t want people to obey His rules just out of fear. He wants them to obey because it’s the right thing to do. With Him the motive has to be right in order to make the action right.

    Israel had been God’s kingdom on Earth for over 600 years. They were so well established they didn’t think it mattered what they did. As long as they called themselves God’s people and went through the motions of worshiping Him they thought they were safe. And after all their Scriptures said that Israel was a Kingdom established by God, who intends for it to exist forever on Earth. Even so, when God’s righteousness demanded judgment, nothing could prevent it.

    We need to remember that while in many ways America is like Israel, the Church is not. First, The Church is not a national kingdom with a homeland and geographical borders. Our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. (Phil 3:20) He’s not coming here to be with us where we are. He’s coming to take us to His Father’s house to be with Him where He is. (John 14:1-3) So when He does it won’t matter whether we’re from the United States, the United Kingdom or the United Arab Emirates because the Church is everywhere. God has only established one eternal nation on Earth and that’s Israel. The Church’s eternal home is in Heaven where an inheritance from God Himself awaits us. (Gal. 4:4-7)
    Second, the Church never needs to fear a judgment such as the ones I described above. The Lord Jesus agreed to be judged in place of the Church in order to present us to Himself without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. (Ephes 5:27)

    The Religious Right and other well intended American Christians frequently send out emails urging everyone to pray for America. But where in the Bible did God to say to pray for any place on Earth other than Jerusalem? God’s will would be much better served if the Church would pray for itself, that it would finally adopt the Biblical world view it was intended to have, and become what it was intended to be, the body of Christ. It’s an indication of what a secular world view the American Church has when more of us are praying that God will restore the good old days in our country than are praying for the Lord’s speedy return to take us away from here.

    Prayers for America are fine as far as they go, but they’re motivated more by a love for what our country has been than by a desire to see God’s will done on Earth. And when you get right down to it, praying that God will restore America could be seen as an admission that we’re really not ready to see God’s will done on Earth yet.
    Many of us grew up in America believing that God is on our side. But when I began studying the Bible I realized that God doesn’t take sides, He is a side. Whatever blessing we’ve enjoyed as a nation has come during times when we’ve been on His side, not because He’s on ours. As far as God is concerned, America is one of the nations destined to be completely destroyed during the Great Tribulation (Jere. 30:11). In His mind, the only nation on Earth that matters always has been and always will be Israel.

    Even so, there came a day when God told Jeremiah to stop praying for Israel because it was too late to change His mind. Even a revival wouldn’t have helped them. If it’s not already here, that day will soon come for America and whatever favor our nation might have enjoyed with God will be gone for good.
    It’s time for American Christians to realize that America is just a place where we’re temporarily living. And while we mourn the fact that America seems to be turning its back on Israel, we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that America is also turning its back on the Church.

    According to no less an authority than our President, America is not a Christian nation. He’s right. The only connection between God and America today is that a bunch of us who believe in Him happen to live here. Americans don’t live by God’s laws, we don’t teach our children about Him in our schools, we don’t offer public prayers in His name, and the holy days we observe are no longer tributes to Him. We don’t thank Him for the blessings we receive and we don’t turn to Him when we’re in need.

    America is a secular gentile nation that will soon be no more comfortable a home for the Church than pre-war Germany was for the Jews. It’s high time we excised our patriotism from our religion. Think of it as a reverse separation of Church and State. In the last election Americans said they don’t want the Church’s values guiding the nation’s direction. Well neither should Christians want America’s values guiding the Church. We should be so passionately yearning to leave here that our feet barely touch the ground when we walk.

    One day the Lord was asking some men to follow Him. The first one said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” (By that he meant, “Let me wait till my father dies.”) And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

    Another said, “I will follow you, Lord, but let me first say farewell to those at my home.” Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9:59-60)
    His position here is consistent with His warning against accumulating treasure on Earth.

    “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. (Matt. 6:24) In the original language the word translated money also includes possessions. If you’re up to your elbows in nice things, you’re naturally going to want to spend your time with them instead of preparing to leave them and move to your new home.

    He also had this to say about the seed sown among thorns.
    As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. (Matt. 13:22)

    These verses all speak against becoming so immersed in the ways of the world that we lose sight of where our real home is. In each case the one who falls into this trap becomes unfruitful. That means we ignore Kingdom opportunities here and forfeit Kingdom rewards there.
    Why do so many in the American Church cling to America when America has made it clear it wants nothing to do with the Church? It’s because it’s our nature to always place a higher value on what we know than on what we don’t know. We know how good our life here has been, but most of us don’t know the first thing about how life in our eternal home will be. A surprising number believe we’ll be sitting on clouds all day playing harps. Others think of Heaven as an endless worship service, and compare it to their Sunday morning experiences. It’s no wonder they’d rather stay here.
    It would be easy to blame organized religion for not teaching us the truth about this. But that would be a cop-out. After all organized religion itself is an earth centered institution. The real problem is that it takes a lot of faith to choose the unknown over the known. And just like most American Christians don’t have the faith to live their beliefs, choosing to live secular lives instead; most of us don’t have the faith to believe God’s promises for eternity, so we focus on the here and now.
    The solution to all this is deceptively simple. Paul wrote that faith comes through hearing the Word of the Lord (Rom. 10:17). By reading what the Bible says about what’s in store for us we can be made new in the attitude of our minds (Ephes. 4:23). We can be transformed, no longer conforming to the pattern of this world. (Romans 12:3). We can understand what it means to be in the world but not of it. We can discover that the greatest adventure ever designed for mankind lies right around the corner, and since we’ve accepted the Lord’s death as payment in full for our sins it’s all for us. And finally, we’ll understand that while America’s successes have been without parallel, in all the Age of Man the biggest winner by far is the Church. 06-06-09

    Jack Kelley wrote this article in 2009…things have gotten so much worse in this country since then!!! It certainly applies now more than ever!! America is our temporary home and it will be destroyed soon, and justly so!! There will be no more returning to the good old days…pack it up and prepare to depart; we are going to our TRUE HOME, with our LORD AND SAVIOR!!! Any day now!!

  147. Rick-Stanwood Jul 18th 2012

    The Apostles reported back to Jesus, there were people doing things they didn’t
    Agree with and they told them to stop. Jesus answered,”Don’t tell them to stop!!!

  148. I haven’t followed this discussion closely but know that the Lord gave me this word http://ahouseofprayerforthenations.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/the-valley-of-dry-bones/ back in September 2010…

    I quote from that word below in italics

    They will move together, regardless of age, station in life, gender, socio-economic status, race, education and calling and operate as a unit – a mighty army – each in their appropriate position – as appointed by the Holy Spirit – under the Directorship of the Holy Spirit of the Living God…

    They will not seek political power, they will not seek to “change the world” in some “cosmetic way”, they will not seek “social reform” or “social justice” or “crusade” for the rights of the “oppressed” or “downtrodden” to be established in the physical realm, they will not see humanity as “victims” but rather as guilty perpetrators of rebellion against God, suffering the just outworkings of their actions…

    The Holy Spirit is concerned for the hearts of men, women, boys and girls all over the world, He is not concerned – or primarily focused – regarding political systems or ideologies or outward manifestations of evil in the nations of the world, He is concerned – or primarily focused – with the hearts of the people and His concern is to change their hearts so that they will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ…

    He is aware that once a person comes to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ they become “salt” and “light” to the world and will be more and more a preservative influence on the society in which they live, the change will be from the “inside out” and not from the “outside in”, He is seeking radical heart change in the hearts of those He brings to salvation and knows that once this is established they will touch others with Him as He leads them…

    Love in the Lord,

    Andrew

  149. michelle d Jul 18th 2012

    Please the truth is… What is a christian?

    It isn’t politics… our problem is

    Everyone claims to be a christian… the words come to mind… in the last days there would be a famine for hearing the word of God…

    But isaiah said that the sound there of went unto the ends of the earth…

    The famine for hearing the word of God is to OBEY… if we do not OBEY we did not hear…

    SO the question is are we OBeying the word of GOD

    if not we are not his…
    Most Christians are just SHALL be SAVED

    When they GIVE it up for JESUS… But they are not SAVED yet…
    they almost believe the words are neigh unto them even in their mouth…

    BUT MOST CHRISTAINS IN THE USA>>>
    <<<>>
    Woes me… justice and judgment is mercy…

    be merciful to us… That we would not lose this generation… LORD

    GOD bring forth what ever it takes.
    … in JESUS Name
    That repentance comes… Have mercy oh LORD

  150. bobmako Jul 18th 2012

    I don’t have a lot to add since so much has been said, but I will say that as I continue to learn of the Lord, I realize that governmental systems are irrelevant to Him. Yes He ordains the powers that be, and we are to pray for our leaders, but this partisan stuff really is counterproductive. We are to bring His light where we are, and that is it.

    We get the government we need at the time, sometimes that in itself is a hand of the Lord to discipline a nation. As a citizen of the United States, I live in an incredibly resource rich land that is populated by people who are out for personal gain alone. We will not stand with that attitude. We are warned, as was Israel.

  151. alexander lee Jul 18th 2012

    Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

    Um… where is political activism and following the ilk of the right wing demagogues fit in with the beautifully clear commandment above?

  152. Eileen Jul 18th 2012

    While I agree with you regarding the truth that only a Spiritual awakening will heal this country, I am just wondering if you regularly receive emails etc from the Tea Party, why you didn’t know that their address is not TeaParty.org, it is TeaPartyPatriots.org??
    While you are trying to help with the blogs and comments, I hope you will also sound the alarm to get on our knees for all our brothers and sisters in Christ in all of this dark world.
    Respectfully, Eileen

  153. DeWayne Jul 18th 2012

    Andrew, take heart, you are serving the true King, not kings of this world. The Kingdom is within, not without, and without is the world where we as workers serve the Lord fulfilling Gods good purpose.

    America became a great nation (not) because of a Constitution, Bill of Rights, Laws, and Courts of Judgment, it became a great nation because many if not most professed and served as Christian believers… I remember historical, family, and community stories of serving one another at that time.

    Yes we are commanded to be good citizens, certainly knowing the difference between what is Ceasars, and that which belongs to God. And lest we forget, what we have of any value is from the loving God. It is (WE) the church that need repent and return to our first love, those of the world will follow as prophesied.

  154. Eileen,

    Not taking much notice to the Tea Party and what they are doing or saying, I was surprised to see there is quite a difference between TeaParty.org, and TeaPartyPatriots.org.

    Thank you for pointing that out.

    “Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.”

    It would be easy for Andrew to clear this up and tell us if he was referring to TeaParty.org or TeapartyPatriots.org information he is receiving.

    Dale Robertson, is the founder and president of TeaParty.org

    All anyone needs to do is do a Google search on (Dale Robertson TeaParty.org) and all will see what type of person he is.

    Thanks again Eileen.

  155. So sad to see how some people still don’t get the point.

    America and American politics are nothing – just as other nations and their politcal manipulations are nothing.
    GOD’S Kingdom is EVERYTHING – and that is where I focus should be.

    Spiritual problems in the world today are due to man’s devotion being directed to other things instead of to God. A very destructive example of this is National idolatry.

    Love GOD not nation.

  156. Andrew Jul 18th 2012

    Well-said Tim.

    Focusing us on the “real” issue.

    -Andrew

  157. Andrew
    When you were in Texas I came to your meetings and talked with you and I have read over 90% of all the post associated to the Tea Party therefore I am surprised of your post. There are those who have spoke truth such as Simon Whiton, Bernie Wade, Gaye, Amandan. I had to ask myself who are these Christians that are speaking for the Tea Party or are they those that God might say depart from Me you workers of iniquity. Many ask for the names of those that you were getting your information from, I think that you should have been more like Paul and named names. After reading most of the comments I asked myself one question did this release the life of God? I would have to say no, life was not released.
    John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
    Even though Jesus was wiser than any other man, He never issued His own opinion. He spoke what His Heavenly Father said. The emails that you receive was it the Father speaking are just more opinion? We do not have the right to release our own opinions. Our opinion won’t give life to anyone. The only thing that brings life is the Spirit of God. So if we are not speaking something by the Spirit, then our words can at best be right. In other words, we could have discerned the situation and released our opinion based on our knowledge of good and evil, and we could be right. That is the best we can hope for.
    But being right does not mean that the other person is ready to hear what we have to say. His heart must be prepared, and the Spirit of God must quicken the truth to him. We will not release life just by being right. We will only release life by the Spirit. That’s why we can
    understand a situation perfectly and be absolutely right, but releasing our judgment won’t bring life to that person because we are not speaking it by the Spirit, and the Spirit of God is not flowing through us to give life to the person. It is the anointing, which is the presence of the
    Spirit that gives life. When we speak what the Spirit is saying, it will bring correction and discipline to them, which will cut away that which produces death and will give life.
    God doesn’t look at the outward appearance. He looks at the heart. He understands all the intentions and motivations behind the action. He is the only one who can do that, but He can reveal what He sees to His children through the Holy Spirit. Even then, He does not always
    want us to speak the things He shows us. Sometimes He shows us things so that we can pray. But sometimes He tells us to release it or speak it forth to the person.
    When this happens and we say what He says about a situation, we release righteous judgment. Remember such judgment cannot come from our understanding based on circumstances. It must come to us through either the word of God or the Spirit of God. If it comes from the word, it still must be applied as the Spirit directs, because it is still only the Spirit who can see the motivations of the person, and it is the Spirit that releases life. We have no right to form our own judgments about people. That is God’s job. We do have the right to speak the judgment that he gives by the Spirit within the measure of rule that He has given us.
    Brother Andrew, as Christians we need to honor God in all things that would include the governments on this planet which need the wisdom that can only come from Christians. Yes we need to turn off all news sources until we can respond as Christ and maybe even all emails that promote political activism.

  158. DeWayne Jul 18th 2012

    There is one issue of concern that Christians need consider. This being the charge heard more often these days, that ‘religion’ implying Christianity (among others) as the evil causing of most wars and strife today, if not throughout history.
    Where do people of the world get these ideas, how might it be corrected as untrue?

  159. Andrew you say in your email:

    “Please comment on this article at the website below-”

    You lured us in– it’s not like we forced ourselves on you, you invited us to comment on your article, did you not?

    I feel violated.

    I’m sorry we poor dumb peasants can’t get the “real” issue.

    You’re demeaning ways and talking down to people is typical of people who use shame to control others.

    I forgive you Andrew and ask God to bless you.

    Cindy

  160. Mark Beadle Jul 18th 2012

    I agree completely up until “Nothing ‘Political’ can make the slightest difference to the inner state of people’s hearts.”

    We are to ‘honour the emperor’ and seek peace that the gospel may be proclaimed. I believe that God calls individuals to run for public office and that this is good and a Christian service.

    I keep informed so that I may vote wisely but I try to see past the mud slinging. I fast forward through most of the news to avoid it.

    Mark

  161. oneseekingGod Jul 18th 2012

    I am a bit confused by this all! I live here in the U.S. and the Tea Party does reach out to Chrisitans but this organization is not a Christian organization. These are well meaning people from all walks of life who are concerned about the freedom they are slowly losing. I would not argue that because of our total indifference to God and His kingdom that we have brought this upon ourselves. One thing I do not believe at all is that a Christian should stand silent and allow tryanny to reign. Our job as believers is to stand against injustice and tryanny. A good example of that is in WWII against Nazi Germany. We must be occupiers of the political life in our countries of the world. Jesus never intended anyone to be silent. If anything we should be chastising the church for its ineffectiveness and silence. The preachers of the world are great at spiritual advice but what have they really done to change the world for Christ? Always remember Faith without Works is dead. As for your comments Andrew each man must look at his own heart and listen to the Holy Spirit. All I know my friend is that we must allow the Hand of God to Work. Just beware of what you may be calling evil for it just might be the hand of God moving.

  162. King Nebuchadnezzar ate grass and lived in a field UNTIL HE CAME TO KNOW THAT THE MOST HIGH RULES THE KINGDOMS OF MEN AND GIVES IT TO WHOM HE WILL.
    (See Daniel 4:24-25)
    This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
    Da 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

  163. Lynn 2 Jul 18th 2012

    Someone said Christians should not vote did not the disciples cast lots or in english vote, who would replace Judas? and I agree being eternally minded desireing his retun is truely the heart of those whom are Christs and what we are to do but we also are to make him known through the who earth, occupy and go and make disciples.
    Jesus died for the sinner.and after all we are told to Pray for Jerusalem – I love Jerusalem, God’s earthly City, where Jesus will step his foot down on the Mount of Olives Jesus loved Jerusalem he wept over Jerusalem and its coming destruction- and we also will be ruling and reigning with Christ on this earth for 1000 years.
    GodtolAdamand Eve they would manage the earth I believe God has had a plan we be involved in this earth he created and and its people and for the salvation of mans soul.

    It is the evil we are not to involve ourselves in. Idonot believevoteing is evil voting for a man whom is Pro-life -protecting the most vonerable who believes in marriage between one man and one womam who believes in God.I believe this is what God would have us to do.

  164. The History Channel did a documentary of how Hitler came to power through the people… I will never forget them telling about how when the trains full of Jews passed by the churches, the congregation would sing loud so as to drown out the screaming for help. It’s easy to talk big talk when you haven’t faced such horrible tyranny, and your head isn’t on the chopping block. I would wager if it was you’d wish you had someone to stand for you.

  165. Tea Party, Moral Majority, Republicans, Conservatives, whatever handle one uses they are all too closely tied to Christians in America who in there great deception think that politics is somehow going to save America, fat chance! Just as Babylon of old was judged and destroyed by God so shall this nation be as well and no silly political system is going to save it, in fact, the present political system is out front leading the destruction so thinking that any part of it is going to save the nation is truly to lose touch with reality. But Christianity in the 21st century has lost touch with the spirituality that was the hallmark of the 1st century disciples so it is no surprise that people who put more trust in politics than the Lord would get upset that anyone would dare question the legitimacy of their political demigod system in whom they trust. Interestingly, these are the same people who think they are going to get beamed up before Tribulation events begin. Deception reigns!

  166. Andrew
    I am a Tea Party guy…I am also a Marine Corps veteran – my dad was also a Marine and landed on Iwo Jima Feb 19, 1945. I am a retired pastor and a born again Spirit Filled follower of Jesus Christ.
    Sure glad somebody was out there defending yours and my freedom to be discussing Religion and Politics. FREEDOM IS NOT FREE – Jesus died to set us FREE from sin and to pay the price that we might have eternal life. Jesus also told the Pharisees and Sadducees what He thought of them.

    Personally, I believe that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (Declaration of Independence) are God’s gift to mankind and we are all given the opportunity to use these gifts. They are NOT provided by the government and therefore the government cannot take them away. If we as healthy normal capable individuals want to sit on our rocking chairs and have someone else provide for us including God we ought to read the book of James. Yes, we are to help those in need but each one has a responsibility to help themselves and to work out their own salvation in fear and trembling.

    Personally, I think you are wrong in suggesting that Tea Party Christians are somehow out of God’s will. In many cases in the Bible God used His people to establish justice. Unfortunately we live in a world where evil exists – are we to bow to satan. We have a God given responsibility to bring the TRUTH to our fellow man.

    I hope you do not have a problem in calling Sharia Law demonic or that most terrorists are Islamic – golly that would be politically incorrect. YES we must pray and seek the Lord and be His witnesses but I have never thought that Jesus intended that we should just stand around and hope evil goes away.

    Finally, many I know in the Tea Party pray for and respect our President but that does not mean we cannot and will not oppose his agenda wherever and whenever it is in opposition the Word of God, e.g., taxing us to pay for the murder of babies in the womb, teaching our children that homosexuality is OK, same sex marriage is OK, etc
    .
    “A man says to me, ‘Can you explain the seven trumpets of the Revelation?’ No, but I can blow one in your ear, and warn you to escape from the wrath to come.”
    – C.H. Spurgeon
    Nuf Sed
    Below is a sermon that may have some truth -I think so!
    ALL I CAN SAY ABOUT THIS IS WOW!!!

    RECENT VIRGINIA CHURCH SERVICE – STIMULUS SERMON

    I would love to give the Pastor of this predominantly black church in Virginia three cheers. This guy is obviously a leader. Perhaps we should each decide who our real leader is… It is amazing to see that very little has changed in 4,000 years.

    Good morning, brothers and sisters; it’s always a delight to see the pews crowded on Sunday morning, and so eager to get into God’s Word. Turn with me in your Bibles, if you will, to the 47th chapter of Genesis. We’ll begin our reading at verse 13, and go through verse 27.

    Brother Ray, would you stand and read that great passage for us? … (reading) … Thank you for that fine reading, Brother Ray. So we see that economic hard times fell upon Egypt , and the people turned to the government of Pharaoh to deal with this for them. And Pharaoh nationalized the grain harvest, and placed the grain in great storehouses that he had built. So the people brought their money to Pharaoh, like a great tax increase, and gave it all to him willingly in return for grain. And this went on until their money ran out, and they were hungry again.

    So when they went to Pharaoh after that, they brought their livestock – their cattle, their horses, their sheep, and their donkey – to barter for grain, and verse 17 says that only took them through the end of that year. But the famine wasn’t over, was it? So the next year, the people came before Pharaoh and admitted they had nothing left, except their land and their own lives. “There is nothing left in the sight of my lord but our bodies and our land. Why should we die before your eyes, both we and our land? Buy us and our land for food, and we with our land will be servants to Pharaoh.” So they surrendered their homes, their land, and their real estate to Pharaoh’s government, and then sold themselves into slavery to him, in return for grain.

    What can we learn from this, brothers and sisters?

    That turning to the government instead of to God to be our provider in hard times only leads to slavery? Yes… That the only reason government wants to be our provider is to also become our master?

    Yes. But look how that passage ends, brothers and sisters! Thus Israel settled in the land of Egypt , in the land of Goshen . And they gained possessions in it, and were fruitful and multiplied greatly.” God provided for His people, just as He always has! They didn’t end up giving all their possessions to government, no, it says they gained possessions! But I also tell you a great truth today, and an ominous one.

    We see the same thing happening today – the government today wants to “share the wealth” once again, to take it from us and redistribute it back to us. It wants to take control of healthcare, just as it has taken control of education, and ration it back to us, and when government rations it, then government decides who gets it, and how much, and what kind. And if we go along with it, and do it willingly, then we will wind up no differently than the people of Egypt did four thousand years ago – as slaves to the government, and as slaves to our leaders.

    What Mr. Obama’s government is doing now is no different from what Pharaoh’s government did then, and it will end the same. And a lot of people like to call Mr. Obama a “Messiah,” don’t they? Is he a Messiah? A savior? Didn’t the Egyptians say, after Pharaoh made them his slaves, “You have saved our lives; may it please my lord, we will be servants to Pharaoh”? Well, I tell you this – I know the Messiah; the Messiah is a friend of mine; and Mr. OBAMA IS NO MESSIAH! No, brothers and sisters, if Mr. Obama is a character from the Bible, then he is Pharaoh. Bow with me in prayer, if you will…

    Lord, You alone are worthy to be served, and we rely on You, and You alone. We confess that the government is not our deliverer, and never rightly will be. We read in the eighth chapter of 1 Samuel, when Samuel warned the people of what a ruler would do, where it says “And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day…”

  167. Dietrich Wilberforce Jul 18th 2012

    Cindy,

    “[Andrew] You’re demeaning ways and talking down to people is typical of people who use shame to control others.”

    You’re quite right, Andrew has set himself and the “right” to the worldly “healthcare” system as the standard of truth (instead of Jesus’ righteousness being the standard of truth) while blithely attacking American Christians.

    Andrew would also have despised John the Baptist. John didn’t stick his head in the sand and piously tell all God-fearing people to just piously pray in their parlor. John publicly told the political leader, King Herod, to repent of his adultery. Oh, how inconvenient, doesn’t fit with Andrew’s false doctrines whatsoever. Guess John the Baptist, George Washington, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the Pilgrims, Martin Luther, and William Wilberforce were all just carnal and don’t make the grade in Andrew’s book.

    If Andrew was in Germany in 1935-45 he would be saying “pray louder so you can’t hear the box cars going to the ovens rolling by our church! Don’t get involved with dirty politics. Obey Hitler and just be a good German! Heil Hitler!” while doing the Nazi salute.

    Let the ignorant be ignorant still–Andrew has proven repeatedly the path he has chosen. We all need to fast and pray for Andrew as well while also being salt and light right here.

  168. It seems to me having read some of the well meaning comments above. That a separation is occurring in the Body between those that are willing to use a worldly ‘sword’ to resist the coming crucifixion of the ‘Body’. And those that are not.

    Peter tried to dissuade Jesus from going to his cross. Yet Jesus recognised Peters words as being Satanically inspired and he rebuked him harshly saying: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.” We know that Peter meant well. I believe many politically oriented followers of Christ here, mean well too. Yet it is a Satanic deception to place our security in fighting the spiritual battles of this world using it’s physical political processes. Only those whom the Lord has personally spoken in their prayer closets should pursue a ‘physical’ role.

    As much as I love my own nation I am not of this world. Over time I have come to realise that I am a stranger here – my real home is in heaven. However like Daniel, Moses or Job, I too am called to pray and to stand in the presence of Almighty God representing my people. I believe that as I am obedient to this calling that he will give me an authority to speak to those around me those truths that He is giving me in my prayer closet.

    The scriptures encourage us all “to overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony’s”. (Rev 12:11). The qualifier for this overcoming is “to not love our lives so much as to shrink from death”. I don’t say this lightly but we must be ready to turn the other cheek for our faith. This is a serious command, that pierces my soul. Therefore I am training my children to be ready to lay down their lives for their Lord. I think we need to get ready for persecution, not in some political war but to be faithful as Christs ambassadors to the very end.

    My question is are you ready to lay down your own agenda’s for Christ’s agenda. Are you willing to bless those who curse and kill you? To not resist an evil person. To love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you? Yes each circumstance is going to be different, but this is Christ’s kingdom we’re talking about. As graciously as I can say this – which kingdom are you fighting for?

  169. Rick-Stanwood Jul 18th 2012

    The people said,”give us a King”
    The prophet( Samuel) was distraught.
    The curse is.still on us.
    We need to decide who- Saul,David,orSolomon
    Too many Job’s counselors with their creed’s

  170. How sad that devotion to a nation can outweight devotion to God.

    Let me share a “secret” – America is not God’s chosen nation. America is not the promised land.

    How many here who have shown such anger over a PERCEIVED (not actual) attack on their nation get so worked up and show as much devotion to God and the Gospel of HIS Kingdom?

  171. Thank you Andrew, your email has i feel exposed more problems than the Tea Party issue.
    What I find terribly sad here is professing christians exhibiting such dis-unity and division.
    Where then is the mind of Christ?
    Where is the
    “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”
    Where indeed is that manifest amongs us?!

    your email has revealed the problem is in those that profess to be His people!
    Our enemy is not the President or our leaders for it seems to me that when we thus argue about politics and the “afairs of this life” Truly the “Man of Sin” is revealed, dwelling between our own ears, he is the “old nature” that should have disappeared when we were buried with Jesus in the baptism tank!
    Are we not then in grave danger of being entagled with the affairs of this world?
    Pr Michael

  172. Good on ya mate!

  173. Ibelieve Jul 18th 2012

    I also am a Marine Corps veteran and was serving during the Vietnam war. This means nothing to me as my rewards in heaven are not based on what I have done on this earth. I am now a born again, Spirit filled believer.

    The only reason any of us have been granted any freedoms in life is because the Lord has allowed it. I think its folly to claim that it is because of us that freedom is granted in some area of the world.

    Luke 17:10-11
    So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”

    I am amazed though how we as Christians can take the Bible and make it say what we want it to say by pulling scriptures out of context to fit our religious agenda.

    Did you ever consider that maybe the Lord our God put President Obama in office for His purposes? God is not going to wink, at our mammon ridden society with all their freedoms to sin as they choose.

    Gary

  174. I don’t think this is about not voting and not speaking up against evil….or even that there can be a just war…..the main idea is that when we do this things, that we are one) led by the Spirit to do so, and two) we do what we do in a Christlike manner. It doesn’t mean that we should not have fought Hitler, or rescued the Jews (which unfortunately ended up too little too late, by and large) or that we shouldn’t speak out against abortion, or racism or the breakdown of the family….but what are we modelling? What do people see in us? The cry of the heart of so many out there has not changed….*We would see JESUS*…..and we are His epistles, known and read of all men.

  175. Tiffany Jul 18th 2012

    @Onesimus (Tim) AMEN & AMEN to what you’ve shared!!!! That literally sums it up! Thank you sir! Also, this is a spiritual issue and it amazes me how that is being overlooked when it’s so simple and so clearly visible! Blessings!!

  176. Andrew Jul 18th 2012

    The saddest thing of all is this-

    If the Christians in the USA insist on making their Christianity “ultra-political” and “mammon-oriented” and totally different from the Bible – then God will be forced to use large-scale JUDGMENT to bring down such a harmful representation.

    The church is supposed to represent JESUS CHRIST.

    This is important. Or judgment can follow.

    Bless you all.

    -Andrew Strom.

  177. Tiffany Jul 18th 2012

    Michael wrote: “What I find terribly sad here is professing christians exhibiting such dis-unity and division. Where then is the mind of Christ?” “Our enemy is not the President or our leaders for it seems to me that when we thus argue about politics and the “afairs of this life” Truly the “Man of Sin” is revealed, dwelling between our own ears, he is the “old nature” that should have disappeared when we were buried with Jesus in the baptism tank! Are we not then in grave danger of being entagled with the affairs of this world?”

    One word: EXCELLENT!!!!

    In total agreement! Blessings!!!

  178. KEN 1. I am sorry but I can’t help but tell Jack Kelly is totally if he thinks we ‘Christians’ are going to leave soon in some pre-trib rapture and go to heaven never to come back.The Bride leaves here after the Great Tribulation.It is the church that gets tried,tribulation is for the believers to purify them.The Wrath of God is for unbelievers.Mat_24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
    Rev_2:22 Behold, I cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of her works.
    Rev_7:14 And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Also Christians are going to rule and reign here on earth with the Lord a thousand years and in fact we will live here forever world without end.Heaven is coming to earth.The Kingdom is here already.The marriage supper is in heaven during the Wrath of God being poured out on earth after that year of recompense we come back to live here forever.Noah left for a year lifted up above the flood of God’s wrath.Notice God told Noah yet seven days and the flood would come.Can you see the 7 year tribulation, testing in this story.The scriptures also say as it was in the days of Noah.History repeats.Keeping in mind the book of Revelation is yet future and it says that will rule here seated with Christ in His Throne with a rod of iron.Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:
    Rev 2:27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father:
    Rev 2:28 and I will give him the morning star.

    Andrew, I am sorry to say you have been influenced by socialist thinking.It is propaganda you have been listening to.The democrats are far more stingy with their money than republicans.Every time politicians charitable contributions have been made public republicans put democrats to shame.I am not involved politically but facts are facts.Democrats have run for years on a platform of being for the poor.It is a masterful lie.Today women are worse off and young blacks have the highest unemployment.President Obama and his Chicago gangsters are applying the Cloward Pivens Startegy.We have a new ism in America.It is a mix of socialism,marxism,capitalism being run by the Banksters under the guise of democracy.Notice the spread of democracy in the world.America was formed as a republic .But if you tell a lie enough America is thought of as a democracy.
    I agree with a statement made by Margaret Thatcher “socialism works great until you run out of other peoples money”. When the democrats are spending other peoples money that is when they are generous.
    The democrats are so good with their propaganda along with the help of the media that they have most Americans believing that the KKK was started by republican when in fact it was the democrats.We have the same propaganda machine at work today.Like I said in past posts I don’t vote and politics is dirty but it doesn’t mean I have to be uninformed.Jesus said Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go and say to that FOX… He knew the politics of the day.What keeps me at peace through it all is God is Sovereign .
    God Bless

  179. Tiffany Jul 18th 2012

    @Andrew AMEN & AMEN to your last post. This is of ABSOLUTE truth! Blessings!

  180. Andrew, I am a big fan and supporter of you. Had a chance to listen to you three times in person when you were speaking here in the Fox Valley area of Wisconsin.

    You initial post about the Tea Party was deeply flawed. Half of what you said was EXACTLY on target. The other half completely negated the first part.

    What you were right about was that politics will not solve this nation’s problems. Due to sin, I think we both believe God is going to call this nation (and the rest of the world) into Judgement. Assuming we are going to be judged, then changing political policies will have the same effect as putting a band-aid on a cancer patient. It *might* help for a day or two, but does utter nothing in the long term.

    If you would have written about the futility of using politics to solve spiritual problem – you would have been perfectly on target.

    If you would have pointed out that even IF the tea parties policies are perfectly aligned with God’s will, they would not stopped judgement – you would have been perfectly on target.

    If you would have made the case that promoting repentence and turning to God would have a thousand times the impact that putting effort into politics would have – you would have been perfectly on target.

    Andrew, if this is what you wrote about – you would get an A+. And you did write about these things and I whole-heartedly agreed with that.

    But you didn’t stop there. This is the point where you got yourself in big trouble. Let me give you an example.

    * You wrote about supporting the rich and forgetting the poor. Do you realize the bottom 50% of this nation pay almost no federal tax? Frankly, I think the Biblical way to handle taxation would be a “flat tax” where everyone pays the same percentage of their income. (That is what the tithe was). If anything, this would mean the poor pay more.

    * You wrote about how Christians support war. Well, at least since the Tea party has been around (about 2008), they have not supported Obama’s war in Libya and other places. I see a commitment to finish what was started, but I don’t see push to start wars.

    * You wrote about denying the poor health care. Andrew – America is different than New Zealand and other commonwealth nations. If you like national health care – so be it. Just remember, what the government ‘gives’ you, they also ‘tax’ you for, and they also ‘control’ you. Maybe New Zealand has decided to get more services from the government and pay more taxes and give up personal control / responsibility. If that is what you like – so be it. But that is NOT what America has stood for historically. We pay less taxes, we have more individual responsibility / freedom, and we pay our own bills.
    To somehow use this as a means to tell us that we are not being ‘christian’ – you lost a LOT of credibility buddy.

    Andrew, here is the bottom line as far as I am concerned. To say it is wrong to mix politics and Christianity is a good and proper thing. But YOU turned around and started commenting on political issues. Maybe you should have practiced what you were trying to preach.

    Just one last thought regarding your comments about the poor and health care. Simple question: Is it righteous for a nation to TAX people to give money to the poor??? In the Bible, I see where we as INDIVIDUALS should help the poor, but where does it say the government should take money from one person to give to another? Does it increase the righteousness of a nation to take money from the unwilling to give to those who are poor (without regard to the reason of WHY they are in need)?
    (Just so you know that I practice what I preach, I support my local church, I give about 15% for world missions (Gospel for Asia and Voice of the Martyrs) and I give about 5% (more than a Biblical 3rd tithe) to assist a non-related, blind christian widow I know)

    Andrew, please think about this. If you want to get people’s minds off of politics and onto repentence / righteousness – don’t start commenting on politics.

  181. Andrew, thank you for this forum. I agree wholeheartedly with Kathleen in WA State’s first post above. This should be a place for the interchange of views, insights, etc. even when there is strong disagreement. There have been times my own understanding has been modified by the expressions of others here. I have been disappointed at times when you have chosen to cut the discussion short and close a topic. There have been some where such closure was premature, I believe.

    I think, however, it was wise for you to close the first round of responses, give it a bit of a rest, then bring it back again. It gives some an opportunity to digest it, pray about it, and hopefully come to a place more in line with God’s will for them.

    While you may not have put forth your original message in what may have been a “perfect” manner (which of us ever does?) your basic message has mostly been missed by a number who have written.

    Brothers and sisters in Christ, what does God think about the governments we are put under? First of all, do you think your God insufficient to do what HE WANTS with any government? He makes it plain to us that it is HE who sets up governments and takes down governments as HE wills (Daniel 2:21).

    How does He want us to act or react to our governments?

    First, every true born-again believer in Christ HAS NO RIGHTS.
    We are not our own. We are bought with a price and are to glorify God with all we are in Him (1 Corinthians 6:19,20). We are to die to ourselves daily, take up our cross and follow Him (Luke 9:23).

    The Author and Finisher of our faith did not even do His own will when upon this earth. He died to Himself and submitted to the Father’s will, becoming obedient – even unto death upon the cross. He did nothing of His own initiative, but only what the Father directed Him to do. How many of you who want to fight for the rights your “founding fathers” brought you can say that you have a clear. direct, personal word from God to do what you are doing? Or are you doing your fighting in “the flesh” for what your natural mind tells you is best?

    What does our Father tell us about how we should react to our governments? Many have quoted that we are render to Caesar that which is Caesar’s. Please note He did not give the proviso that we only do that if we agree with the government or agree with how the government spends (or mispends) the taxes we pay. Romans 13:7 tells us, “Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.”

    Paul prefaces this with what some of our other attitudes ought to be toward our governments in Romans 13:1-6:
    1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
    2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
    3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
    4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
    5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.
    6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.

    What about those governments which are truly evil?
    Romans 12:17-21 tells us:
    17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.
    18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.
    19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
    20 Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
    21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

    Let us not forget that Christ, the Apostles, and the early Church ALL lived under a wicked, godless, and violent government which is why many of them were martyred. Did any of them criticize their government? Did any of them rise up in protest against their government or any of its policies or laws? Did any of them try to change their government and bring in a more just or righteous government? The answer of course is, “NO!” So, why are so many so-called followers of Christ so adamant (and perhaps even hell-bent) on demanding that which has not been set as an example by our Master?

    We are commanded by our Master to pray for our governments (1 Timothy 2:1-3). In 1 Peter 2:13-17 we are told to “submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men– as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.”

    How many who have raved against President Obama are honoring him as our Master commands us to?

    Many have made the case that we are not of the kingdoms of this world but we belong to another Kingdom – and rightly so for so the Word of God tells us we are. Those who belong to Christ are to only focus on and serve that which is heavenly.

    Christ tells us that where our treasure (or allegiance) is there will our heart be also (Matthew 6:21). Where our heart is, is often seen in where our priorities and allegiances are. Ours are to be for our Master and His kingdom. One cannot serve two masters. He must either love one or the other – but two are impossible. Which kingdom are you serving?

    I know these truths fly in the face of those who pride themselves in the supposed spiritual heritage of the USA, but the truth of true, Biblical Christianity flies in the face of every culture on earth. Just because there may have been some strong Christian basis in one’s national history does not make it sacred.

    A careful study of national Israel’s history will bear this out. Outside of personal, vital realtionship with the living God, even God’s Chosen people fell into an idolatrous religion, supposing it was that which was begun by God. Yet He referred to the ritual following of what He originally called them to do to be something which now HE HATED!! (Isaiah 1:11-14). Is our Father pleased with the desparate grasp to maintain what the USA once was? Or would He be more pleased with us giving ourselves to support His Kingdom by being His witnesses and modeling the lifestyle and character of Christ and the Apostles?

    Brothers and sisters, our Father weeps for children, that we would repent of our idolatries and worldly ways, that we would turn from ourselves and turn to Him once again. He cries out for us to turn our hearts from the kingdoms of this world and seek His Kingdom only. May our Father so work in our hearts that we seek His heart above all else. In that day, our earthly governments will not matter one iota to us, but His will matter to us completely.

    May God grant us the humility, the grace, and the heart’s desire to know Him and His will in these matters – and to surrender to Him fully.

    Your brother in Christ,
    Wayne

  182. AMEN WAYNE!!!

  183. Andrew Jul 18th 2012

    Some say that I was advocating a certain Health Care policy in my first email. Actually – if you go back and look again at what I said, I was asking the Christians to STOP TAKING SIDES – wherein they sounded like they were supporting the Rich against the Poor.

    My whole point is that it is a TERRIBLE WITNESS for Christians to come across as always siding with the Rich and Big Business.

    I am asking Christians to stop all this political fighting and activism over issues that clearly DO NOT MATTER to Christ’s true kingdom. In fact, they make the Christians look worse and worse – more and more unchristian.

    Please go back and read my first article carefully.

    Blessings to all.

    Andrew Strom.

  184. “Issues that do not matter….”
    Would you have told that to the Christians who fought back against and lost their lives or ended up in concentration camps defying Hitler in the 1930’s and during the Second WW?
    Here in the U.S. we have got pure evil taking down our country through illegal and unconstitutional means.
    It is a citizen’s responsibility to exhort and warn and VOTE!
    Andrew, you were dead right about the Kundalini spirit invading our churches.
    You were absolutely right about Todd Bentley.
    But there is another spirit that has been invading our governmental and political system….and I don’t just mean BHO and I am talking about BOTH political parties.
    The TEA party recognizes this and that is what they are fighting. Again, it is not a “Christian” organization but a political one that many Christians are drawn to because they are not going to go into the night quietly.
    You can fight evil your way….with passivity, if you choose and others can fight it their way….With prayer and fasting, yes, but also non-passive…..through exhortation, disseminating of information and the ballot box.

  185. Dietrich Wilberforce Jul 18th 2012

    Andrew,

    “The church is supposed to represent JESUS CHRIST.”

    Exactly right.

    So you think your leftist promotion of the “right” to the wordly “healthcare” system represents JESUS CHRIST?

    So you think your leftist wild false accusations that American Christians are against the poor represents JESUS CHRIST?

    And sorry–won’t turn off Fox or Rush. I CAN’T as I don’t have any cable or satellite TV to turn off and I don’t listen to radio.

    And I guess the Ethiopian orphans my wife and I adopted and love think we hate the poor too–just cause Andrew’s hate filled speech says we do (so must be true then, right?).

    You don’t have a clue. Worse your prancing around like a proud peacock about your ignorance and love to spread your false doctrine and division in the body of Christ.

    It’s because of liberal drivel from the pulpits like you push that I didn’t turn to Jesus for such a long time–you’re turning people off to the kingdom of Jesus.

  186. All of these accusations refering to “leftist”, socialist” “Marxist” etc being directed at Andrew are not only lies, they are clear and categorical evidence of the cultural brainwashing that some have been subjected to.

    These “isms” are the evil straw man enemies you have been conditioned to throw around whenever the “American way” and the American spiritual mythology is questioned. It dates back to the 1950s and McCarthyism – when a one time ally (Communist Russia) came to be more valuable as an enemy to be feared and abhored.

    Socialism is deemed evil because the idle poor allegedly devote themselves to handouts from the rich – removing their responsibility and motivation to work.

    This of course differs greatly from Capitalism and its support of an idle rich whose wealth is maintained through the work of the poor. And if the local poor expect too much payment for their labour, the rich can always outsource their work to nations where labourers can be “hired” for practically nothing.

    NEITHER of these political ISMs is the answer.
    But also NEITHER of these political ISMs is the problem.

    The world’s probelm is GODLESSNESS – which is not not only the denial of God, it is also the adoption of OTHER things in place of a God who we may acknowledge.

    We can sing God’s praises with our lips while displaying Godlessness with our attitudes and actions. The elevation of ANY political ideolgy is one such act of godlessness. The idolising of any nation is equally an expression of Godlessness.

    God requires ALL of our allegiance – not just the bit left over after we’ve stood hand over heart saluting the flag of an earthly kingdom.

  187. Thank you Andrew. Keep speaking out. Fear the Lord and not men. keep hearing direct from the Lord Jesus. And be a servant. We pray for you here in (Brisbane, down under).

  188. John Archer Jul 18th 2012

    Does the Tea Party advertise itself as The American Christians ? No, and not all in the movement are calling it a Christian movement by what I can read. It may be giving followers of Jesus some bad press, and we`re adding to it here. How about we encourage Christians to get up and do something rather than sit at home speaking unproductive criticism into a political movement. Even as individuals we can write letters to politicians encouraging Godly policies and shine light on the ungodly ones. When you encourage, be wise, name calling and threats serve no purpose other than no one will give you any time.

  189. Tiffany Jul 18th 2012

    It’s NOT about left or right…conservative or liberalism….health care reform, no health care reform, etc. For me, it is about how we represent Christ Jesus to the world! I am concerned about the one soul that may be seeking to know the Lord and may be watching how I am representing my Lord. I know that “Government Laws” will not draw a man/woman to Jesus, Condemnation most certainly won’t draw them and one cannot be forced through a set of rules/regulations that a man in “worldly power” lays on you to accept Christ, only the Holy Spirit can draw man/woman to Christ as he/she open their heart and see their need of a Savior. And our sharing The Lord Jesus with others through word and demonstration helps to plant the seed. This is why I personally will not spend one moment becoming involved in political activism, or following after some worldly group or joining the world in foolish debates and arguments while daily souls are being lost. no, I will not represent Jesus that way! This is just me personally :) everyone else can choose for themselves but for ME a wandering soul, one of the Lords lost sheep is far more important to me than politics. I want the world to see the “love” of Christ Jesus and they cannot see this if I’m at war with another brother or sister. All they will see is confusion and this will push them away, not draw them near to our beloved Savior!

    What Andrew has tried to convey is NOT political, it is spiritual and if anyone cannot see this by now, you have chosen not to see!

    Andrew, THANK YOU MAN OF GOD!

    Blessings to each and every one of you!

  190. AMEN Tiffany!

    Questions to be considered:

    1) Which concerns are genuinely in line with the Spirit and HIS inspiration and which are a reaction inspired by our cultural upbringing?

    2) Are we willing to honestly search our attitudes so we can find a true answer to question 1?

  191. In defence of Andrew . Although i believe he has One that defends him better than i can.
    We said to Moses we want a king – like the nations around, one we can see. God said Aha! you will have problems, here is a list.
    We discovered that earthly kings can be good, benevolent – Hezekiah, – Josiah or evil Athaliah et al, Israel had not one good King! in all its history! Judah you can count on theirs easily on one hand
    We decided the Greeks had a great idea, dump the king (trumpet blast) hail “Democracy” – we govern ourselves!. We invented noble sounding phrases “liberty equality fraternity” – “government of the people for the people by the people” -declaration of independence. (from whom?) Ohoh, then we have the gall, audacity to add “in God we trust” in reality the modern world has declared its independence from all that is God and then some.
    We use the term democracy but do any of us actually believe we govern ourselves? Democrat? Republican? Things continue to get worse and worse Just as God warned Surprised anyone? There is only one – The Son of man, the Son of God who can sort out the mess. and come what may He will
    He demonstrated the truth. that whosoever trusted, relied, obeyed Him, would be reprogrammed into a new being fitted for the new, righteous world,.no longer of this one. One where He reigns supreme!
    Andrew has pointed to a political entity that makes
    a pretence of
    a being christian –
    b to be the answer our problems
    when
    a it is not,.and
    b it can not,.
    “So STOP the ugly ‘Political’ activism! Stop getting distracted by “fleshly” battles! And start focusing on what really matters – the desperate need for a true ‘Spiritual’ Awakening! (-Which cannot be advanced in any way through Politics. It is a whole different kingdom)”.

    Let us thank Andrew, and not bag him for telling the truth.
    It seems plain, obvious we needed that exhortation!.
    “…..Judgement begins at the House of God……..whose house we are – if we hold fast….”
    Pr Michael

  192. Thanks Andrew for speaking out. As Peter Sharpe said, no apologies needed for speaking truth.

    The sharp divergence of reactions may also verify what a lot of us have sensed for a few years: that God is bringing the American Church to a point of division. I can believe it could be along the very lines you highlighted, “Christian” political activism.

    May all who read, hear and follow Jesus’ voice !

    In Jesus,, Steve

  193. Andrew Jul 18th 2012

    It is very hard for some to accept these FACTS. But FACTS they are-

    (1) Jesus was NOT “pro-War”.
    (2) Jesus came across all the time as being FOR the poor and quite ANTI the rich. (-Read the gospels).
    (3) Jesus was AGAINST “Mammon” and those who serve it.
    (4) Jesus NEVER agitated for “Tax Reform” or anything like it.
    (5) Jesus and His followers NEVER agitated against the Government.

    These are very obvious FACTS. Can we take them on board?

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  194. I thought your article about the tea party was right on! OK it may not have tickled everyone’s ears–I’ll give you that. The truth is not always what one wants to hear.

    What we need to remember is that God’s word is our standard. If we are familiar enough with his word as well has humble beareans we would have to concede that this movement is very questionable in numerous ways.

  195. One of my pet peeves about christianity is the elevating of human standards or human experience above the message and example of Christ. We denigrate Christ by lifting up some supposed person of virtue or moral authority or noble prowess as an example to all without ever considering whether that example really models Jesus Christ. Mother Theresa, Billy Graham, Military heroes, dead presidents, even old preachers, these are just some of the unassailable icons of Christian Americana that are hoisted up as paragons of virtue beyond reproach or correction. Christendom is rife with this kind of idolatry. False standards and false objectives of men subverting the standard and objective of Christ.

    Someone mentioned Dietrich Bonhoeffer, for example, here is a man that conspired to put Adolph Hitler to death. By human standards that might seem acceptable but human standards aren’t our standard. Christ is our standard. “It’s no longer I who live, it’s Christ who lives in me!!” Christianity is Christ in me!! Would Jesus Christ conspire to assassinate any man? Obviously not. Yet we soft pedal the evil deeds that have been done, without ever questioning them and All Hail the Conquering Hero. We can honor men and we should but we should never overlook their failures and justify their sins lest we lose sight of who is the True example.

    This becomes the gist of this discussion for me… Am I seeking to emulate the example and message of Jesus Christ or has some other agenda intruded to distract? I think it is a valid question and not that hard to answer, Does the political process coincide with Christ’s purposes or does it distract from them?

  196. It would appear that much of the disagreement between christians in these matters that Andrew has raised , could come down to whether the OT law is being looked at to justify war and activism, or whether the example of our Lord Jesus Christ under the NT covenant is being observed as the example that Christ would have us follow.

    Lord Jesus Christ will return visibly in the future here on earth, with the sword and will rule the nations with an iron rod which is a fulfillment of the OT law along with bible prophecy.

    The OT Law and the NT covenant run side by side until the end of time and the final judgment.

    If we truly follow Lord Jesus Christ under the NT covenant, His commands to us are very clear as others have posted , and preclude us from taking matters into our own hands .

  197. Steven Grant Jul 18th 2012

    Dear Andrew:
    In your last article you asked for people to challenge you, using examples from the New Testament, and I did so. I also used examples from history and from the establishment of the U.S. Government based on Christianity. The Founding Fathers quoted more from the Bible than any other document as their source material for this nation. This is what the Tea Party and others seek to reclaim. My points out of the New Testament seem to have been ignored or mischaracterized as a personal attack, but they merit study from one Christian leader to another.
    You are however, errant in using the New Testament alone. It takes a complete Bible to make a complete Christian, and everyone in the New Testament from Jesus, to His Apostles (e.g., Paul, Peter, John, etc.) referred us to it. The New Testament deals with the saving of the individual, but the Old Testament deals with the soul of the nation. You miss that in your use of the New Testament alone.
    Andrew, you have been very stern in rebuking individuals that are sinful, backslidden in heart and away from God. You have done the same with Christian ministers. But Christ’s stern words didn’t stop there. They escalated into the halls of government. I pointed out these examples before. Barack Obama sits upon the seat of power in the United States. He has been exposed as a fraud, having used and published fraudulent documents to ascend to this place in government, to reign over the nation with a Christian heritage and presumably to destroy it from within. If Christians should not call that out, then they cannot call sinners to repentance, pastors to holiness, business to righteousness and marriages to purity.
    In the last days the Son of perdition will sit in a governmental position of authority. He will control economies, oversee armies, persecute believers, and hate everything the Christ-culture believes and does. Will you bless him? Will you pray for his government to be increased? Will you obey him and submit to his authority? The Word of God says that he is to be resisted at every level by Christians. That starts now! 2 Thessalonians 2 speaks of this son of perdition, as does John 17. The former son of perdition was Judas Iscariot, who believed in social justice, redistribution of wealth, and using Christ for his own purposes. He acted as a believer while selling out the true believers. This is the spirit of antiChrist in practical terms. In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 it states that the mystery of iniquity is working. What is this mystery? The Amplified Bible states that this mystery is “rebellion against constituted authority.” The son of perdition rebels against the authority vested in constituted powers, defying laws and governmental practices used for generations. Is that happening today? You bet it is.
    So tell me how holy anger against this spirit of perdition is “unChristian.” Explain why Jesus Christ told His followers to arm themselves for self-defense in the last days if this is only a spiritual battle. Jesus, Peter and Paul used language that was coarse and salty (especially when you study it in the Aramaic), especially targeted at various governmental and religious leaders. Were they unChristian?
    Finally, don’t play the spiritual versus political card. Of course this is a spiritual issue, but it contains physical, political properties. When God promised a land to Abraham, it still had to be physically possessed. Psalms says that the Israelites were borne into the promised land on wings of eagles. But guess what? They walked! All the way. The spiritual battle has found its way into government and politics, and many Christians and patriots can sense it. This is true Christianity, not a false idol.
    Once again, I recommend you read “In Defense of a Nation” by Stanley Grant. It’s available everywhere and explain many things you are missing in your analysis. God bless you. Steven Grant

  198. “but the Old Testament deals with the soul of the nation. ”

    NO!
    The old testament deals with God’s relationship with ISRAEL. If you want to see OT relevance to God’s relationship with the USA (or other gentile countries) check out references to “the Nations”

    References to Israel are applicable to Israel they can not be plucked out of context at will and apllied to any other nation of our choice.

  199. Philip Morrill Jul 18th 2012

    Andrew,
    I have not had time to read all the comments, but I would like to add this. While many go around with a wrong attitude, mistakenly thinking that getting the right people elected will restore our nation to God, we do have a responsibility to vote for the people that will give us the greatest opportunity to continue to spread the gospel freely. Our present president, though claiming to be a Christian, has proven by his actions to be more favorable to Islam than to Christianity, and is doing all he can to silence the voice of Christians speaking out against evil. He is also instituting rules that force us to pay for things, like abortion, that we are scripturally opposed to. Changing leaders certainly will not bring revival in our land, but it may give a greater opportunity for revival to come. As to whether or not we should listen to “conservative” news, the mainstream media is so biased in the opposite direction that they often do not report the truth, and many times omit things that are of great importance to Christians. Any news needs to be watched prayerfully and with discernment. (And as hateful as some of the conservatives may happen to appear to be, have you listened to the other side?)

  200. Andrew Jul 18th 2012

    Philip – yes, I am absolutely fine with “voting”. Go for it!

    And to Tim I say “Amen!” The “OT” mindset is one of the biggest causes of “False Nationalism” and the confusion it brings.

    The historical record also shows that a large portion of the revolutionaries were not “Christians” at all – but rather Deists and Freemasons – including Washington, Paine, Jefferson, Franklin and so-on. But that is beside the point.

    We are followers of the words of Jesus – not an “Old Testament” mindset aimed at the nation of Israel.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  201. Hi Andrew, as a fellow American born and raised in the same region for 52 years now, I am greatly at the massive betrayals. I see the plights of my brothers and sisters all around us, almost meaningless sermons in most of the churches nowadays, as preachers are struggling to be politically correct so they can keep their doors open, so many people I know and can’t help who have small businesses closing their doors, even giving up and joining the entitlement bandwagon. Other than political motivations, well, it’s a shame, and I empathize with your pain, I go through it daily myself ! All I can think of is, anathema. What I mean by that is we are all basically being robbed, of our dignity, wealth, hope, faith, health, our children are in mortal danger, even our animals are being poisoned as we are by the very government most of us have come to be increasingly dependent upon. Anathema, where if you don’t buy the party line, you are a non-entity, like the catholic preists as an example, encouraged to pedophilia by the redemptive lie of confession, dammed to hell if they try to marry or have god-sanctioned love by the same papacy that brainwashes them, much as our government does to us daily, and now our children-grandchildren.
    We are coming to a very ugly place in time, I think soon, where there may be food and medicine, but no money, or vice versa, to force people over the edge, and then our own law and military will come in the night, offering help as they did in Katrina while they take our arms and wealth, and anything we may have stored up on, all in the name of peace, unholy messengers from the prince of lies.
    Sorry, I just really got what you said, and the deeper we sink toward world government, as the tea party, news, all the political and social entities that keep us pumped up on the edge or dispair and anger, all the distraction and fear being thrown at us, like cair, how ACT and florida family ass. I think it is wants us to fight jihad, in all it’s stages, as if this a fight any of us can win on our own.
    I am just grateful I have real faith in god, that I don’t need anyone or thing but Jesus love to succeed in this life, and that no one can ever take him away from me again, nor scare me away from the holy spirits urgings in my heart. I see horrors beyond horrors, atrocities that I can’t hardly imagine, I read about them and watch videos every single day showing the carnal and evil spirits spreading like a cancer, swallowing up believers by the thousands all over the world, and yet, I also see in the news that the more they kill, the more people convert, called by god, in the unlikeliest of places.
    I can see for one the lie the media keeps trying to drown us all in, and I believe the truth is islam is losing it’s teror-stranglehold as people find out the truth about islam, that there is no love, only darkness, just as the corrupt institutions and governments are being increasingly exposed by people who I believe are led to the truth by the lord, and are spreading it through second stream news, to maybe give the majority of mankind still sitting on the fence a few last wake-up calls, so they may yet be saved, to see that they really do have a choice, not the lies by the papacy, and lukewarm preachers supporting this phony republican vs democrat vs freedom horse and pony show.
    Anyway, I have followed you and several others for a few years nowAndrew Strom, heard all your shows, and I thank god for every one of you Andrew, people standing in the gap for the rest of us, an often thankless job I’m sure, keep up the good fight, our enemy has no promise of salvation, and I just imagine there are a lot of sleepless nights spent doubting their directions and decisions in places like Washington.

  202. I would point our US brethren to the fact that in the forthcoming election they only have a choice between a Mormon and a man of questionable nationality who may not even be a US citizen (he is a registered citizen of Indonesia that does not allow its citizens to hold dual nationality).

    This should be a small hint as to the spiritual state that the US is in. For as long as I can remember there has never been a time when the US has had candidates, both of which, are absolutely anti-Christian. Neither of which profess to be Evangelical believers. Obama will never proclaim that Jesus Christ is the Son of God!

    I always said that Osama Bin Laden is an anagram of Obama Sin Laden!

    London is now a massive military camp because of the Olympics. Missiles are placed on residential buildings. Should anything occur in the next 6 weeks don’t be surprised that the November elections don’t get called off and America gets put in lock-down, just like London!

  203. In answer to some of the arguments to justify the darkness:

    Jesus did call out hypocritical religious leaders–but He did not get involved in the worldly politics of those that were not His.

    To call a healthcare system that will save lives “worldly”? ? As opposed to . . . ?

    Prayer is not only making our requests known, but prayer is hearing also from God. We only bind and loose those things we are allowed/permitted to bind and loose as we hear from God. Those things are decided on a case-by-case basis. We must judge every case, first consulting God, about His earth and the people on it. Then we will be legally permitted to bind and loose – in agreement with God. Anything else is witchcraft. Witchcraft, even unwitting, hardens the heart and causes mental breakdown.

    Let us pray that hearts will soften, as God will have His way this November. Those who will pray will not need to strive, as God may inform you in advance what will occur – as He has some others who regularly commune with Him. If you are striving, and there is passionate hatred in your heart, ask God why and repent. God will have His way, and the devil will not win. God’s way is not man’s way.

  204. Ibelieve Jul 18th 2012

    Romans 9:17

    17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

    God is the one who raises up the Pharaohs of the earth. God has put President Obama in this office over America.

    If God puts Obama in office for another term to serve His purposes, Do we oppose the selection God has made?

    We need to see the bigger picture that is taking place in the earth and let God be God.

    Gary

  205. @Dietrech Wilberforce,

    Herod identified as a Jew, and as king of the Jews. Herod was not a secular leader. Leaders of God’s people are held to a higher standard than the leaders of the people of the secular world.

  206. Hey Andrew,
    Don’t feel bad. I got very political about this whole government take-over thathas been happening over the last 20 years or so. I think this is why so many people are angry. We must keep the gospel first place.

    there is a ton of proof that our current prez was not born here-words out of his own mouth in a debate in 2004 when he ran for US senator for Illinois against a godly man named Allan Keyes. Keyes said during the debate: “You weren’t even born here.” Bama’s response was: “It’s not like I am running for Prez.” this is one of many and there are many here that are upset because of this stuff and all the things the media is hiding from us. I can speak for weeks on what has been going on for years. Anyhow, our citizenship is in Heaven and if those professing Christ for all these years would have been sharing their faith, praying for the lost, supporting evangelists in this country financially instead of pastors driging around in Jaguars, America would not be in this mess right now. And people are just upset that their earthly rights are being taken away. God’s judgment defintiely started in 2001 and it is a hard pill to swallow for most. I know I struggled with it. But I resolved with myself that I must keep trying to reach people, pray for others, stay holy, etc. I pray that others would put that as their priority and America secondary. We can’t expect God’s blessing when we don’t put Him first.

    P.S. By the way, I listened to your June 2007 sermon “We Lost the Gospel” and I couldn’t beleive all the things you were saying were things I was saying in my newsletter at the same exact time. I was called hard and rejected by many ministers that were on my email blast. It’s sad to say that most pulpits preach nothing but flesh anymore to keep those offerings coming in.

    God Bless,
    Robert

    I don’t live on blogs so if anyone has to or wants to contact me, you will ahve to do it throug regualr email [email protected].

  207. Christina Jul 18th 2012

    Well said Andrew!

  208. Andrew Jul 18th 2012

    One thing that a lot of Christians have been deceived about is that America was founded by the Revolutionaries as a “Christian” nation. But exactly how many of these founders were not Christians, but rather Deists and FreeMasons? An excellent documentary on this topic – made by believers – is below-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU24fJ4NQxo

    Bless you all.

    Andrew Strom.

  209. Mary Branham Jul 18th 2012

    No, we should not turn off Rush Limbaugh or FOX News! The regular mainstream media over here in the U.S. is “owned” by the far left Liberals, certainly not Democrats, and the man who is in our highest office now is there by fraud and chicanery. He is trying to tear down everything we’ve worked for – in direct opposition to what he swore to uphold and promised to do. No, Andrew – it may be “anti-Christian” to go to extremes in this, but the man who holds the title of “President of the United States” is on an all-out assault to tear our country apart – he’s pitting us against each other! Therefore, we need ALL Americans, Christian and non-Christian, to go shoulder-to-shoulder against this man’s dangerous agenda! Besides, how can anyone get the full picture of what’s going on if one only listens to one side of the debate? CBS, ABC, and especially NBC networks are going out of their way to slant the news in Obama’s favor. At least Limbaugh and others like him, and FOX News, are trying to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth! Obama HAS to be voted out this November!!! Otherwise we’ll never recover America as we knew it!

  210. L. Alex Smith Jul 18th 2012

    The difference between Jesus and BarAbbas: Jesus was the true Son of the Father. BarAbbas means Son of the Father. The people wanted THAT “son of the father” released, but he was an insurrectionist, a politcal activist I believe in the “Zelotes” the “Zealot” movement, and a Murderer. Jesus said to the Pharisees–the “Separatists”– “you are of your father the devil, for he was a murderer from the beginning.” When James and John, the “sons of Thunder” wanted to bring down fire from heaven upon the Samaritans who had just cast out Jesus and the Disciples from their town, in the manner of Elijah of old calling donw fire on the false prophets of Ba’al on Mt. Carmel, Jesus rebuked them saying “Ye know not what spirit ye ar of”. It wasn’t the true “spirit and power of Elijah” prophesied in Malachi 4. It was a false counterfeit fueled by “natural minded, which brings Death” (Rom. 8:6) So as BarAbbas, a false counterfeit “son of the father”—of his father, the murderer…like father, like son. In the last days shall arise one called “the antiChrist”. “ANTI” in Greek means, opposite as in a reflection in a mirror”–thus implying a counterfeit, an imitation, a two-dimensional representation that looks real, but isn’t real. Paul writes that he will eventually “oppose and exalt himself above all the is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he As God, sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” (II Thess. 2:4) We see that he will oppose himself to all religious concepts–but more importantly, I have a serious question: Does “sitting in the temple of God” mean exclusively a rebuilt Jewish temple? Or could it mean “seated in the midst of the Church, which is the Temple of God”? Because, while I think that the Jews will at some point rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, until Messiah’s return and they acknowledge Him, couldit really be said to be the “temple of God”–would He even honour it without acknowledgement of His Son? So my question is: could the counterfeit “Messiah” or “Christ” (both words mean The Anointed One) be raised up and emplaced within the ranks of Christendom itself? When we seek to “maintain the Godly nation” of America, of what spirit are we operating? The best that a conservative government in the States could hope to achieve would be a slightly nicer society…not necessarily a more Godly one. Does God want us to avoid persecution at all costs? Did not the Roman government becoming “Christian” in the 300’s not only end persecution, but usher in a vast compromise with pagan religions? So was it so good after all? All the Freedom that America has enjoyed hasn’t brought a deeper spirituality, just more compromise; watered-down Gospel; mega-churches filled with complacent Laodiceans; but as the ancient prophet said “You have healed the hurt of My daughter ONLY SLIGHTLY, sayiing ‘Peace, Peace’, when there is no peace.” And another place speaks of God’s judgement on Moab: “He hath settled upon his lees, and not been poured from vessel to vessel…” This is speaking of the wine-making process, in which God is complaining that because Moab has become settled and complacent, the nation is like wine settled upon the dregs at the bottom of the barrel, full of sediment–much like the Church today. What is God’s will for America? At the very least, to be more desireable by being “poured from vessel to vessel” and NOT “settled upon his lees.” What is the conservative movement seeking–to remain settled, to avoid judgement by not being persecuted, to maintain a 1950’s version of the good life– one which the hippies rebelled against for its hypocrisy. Perhaps the downfall of the United States IS in fact God’s Will…to provide the “pouring”, to provide an actual CONTRAST between the Church and the World, and to light a fire under the bums of the Laodiceans? Don’t know…conjecture…. but watch out for misplaced trust in “movements”.

  211. Andrew, Do you believe Jesus is pro-self-defense?

    Fact:”Jesus was NOT “pro-War”
    Please explain further.

    Scripture is clear:
    …..for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Romans 13:4

  212. Kathleen in WA State Jul 18th 2012

    You don’t need to look very far to see how God is “shaking” all that is near & dear to we Americans. Our gods are not hidden nor obscure. Even nationalism can be a bad thing.

    The fact that we believers wring our hands & clamor alongside our unbelieving friends & loved ones (or forum partners) over the upcoming election says something. I’m not sure that’s at all what God had in mind when he instructed us to “be still and know …”.

    I will vote in November. I consider it a privilege & a duty, so I’ll have my say at the polls. I will not, however, allow the media or hype of any sort rob me of the peace of His promises.

    There are many in this land, myself & many of you included, that believe nothing short of a great awakening is sorely needed. Even then, I wonder if the consequences of our Godlessness can be averted? I steady myself for even worse shaking – something cataclysmic – because that seems to be the only way the uber-proud are brought low.

  213. L. Alex Smith Jul 18th 2012

    P.S. in regard to an earlier post in which someone made mention that Paul used his Roman citizenship to his advantge: Paul, while a great apostle, wasn’t perfect. His action may or may not have been in the Will of God: it led to his being irrevocably tranported to Rome, where he met his death. Acts 25:11-12 Paul: “I appeal to Caesar.”….Festus: “Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? Unto Caesar thou shalt go!” Acts 26:32 King Herod Agrippa to Festus: “This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar!” This action by Paul altered the course of events in his life, that if he had NOT taken that step, he may well have lived much longer and brought much more glory of God. Also, he ignored several prophecies that warned him not to go to Jerusalem.
    But on the topic of the difference between civilly disagreeing with policy, and evil, vitriolic attacks on a leader, Paul and the Law of Moses as an example again: Acts 23: 1-5 Paul standing before the Sanhedrin, the Jewish Supreme Court, says, “Men and brethren, i have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.” And the High Priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to Smite him on the mouth. (He didn’t hit Paul himself, had someone else do it). Then Paul said to him, “God shall smite you, you white-washed wall (like the “whited sepulchres” Jesus called the Pharisees): for do you sit to judge me after the Law, and command me to be smitten, contrary to the Law?” And they that stood by said, “Do you revile God’s high priest?” Then said Paul, “I did not know, brethren, that he was the High Priest; for It Is Written (in Exodus 22:28) ‘Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people’. ”
    He honoured the “office of the High Priest” and the Law of God, even though initially he came right back at him on a personal level of attack! Paul immediatedly retracted his verbal abuse—because Ananias was in that position!
    Peter warns us that in the Last Days, there shall be those who “walk after the flesh, in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government (that is, think nothing of, no respect for authority)….they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities”. Jude follows up this thought, comparing it to our war against the devil (Jude v8-10) “…speak evil of dignities; yet Michael the archangel when contending with the devil…dared not bring against him a railing accusation but said, ‘The LORD rebuke thee!’ ”
    If anyone ever deserved to be railed against, it would be the devil! One can disagree; one can oppose wrong policy, but there must never be and unChrist-like attitude. When Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, every word He spoke, even though harsh, was “I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.” (John 12:49)
    In all our political and spiritual discourse, can we so dwell in Christ Jesus, that we can also come into this state of being?

  214. Mark Squire Jul 18th 2012

    Hi Andrew.
    I have no problem with anything you have said. I just have the same question as I have had many times.
    How does God expect us to engage with the political arena correctly?
    Obviously not with slander and malice as you have been saying but does this mean we leave politics to the devil to do as he pleases?
    I personally feel left in a vacuum after having been given the “do not” without the “do” and it is not suprising that some readers react with disengagement either with this list or politics itself.
    I know the bible teaches us to respect authority, but it also teaches us to speak out when things are not right.
    Presuming we all abandon politics and concentrate on the spiritual and I am not against that, what happens when people in power with motive issues are left to do as they please?
    What we need is clear scriptural teaching on how to engage with politics correctly in God’s sight without neglecting the spiritual but also without it degenerating to slander.
    Thanks
    Mark

  215. Andrew Jul 18th 2012

    If you want to vote – that is the simplest and purest way of participating.

    Find out what a candidate stands for – and vote for the one you believe is right.

    I don’t see need for slander or “bashing” in this at all. Just vote. Nothing wrong with that.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  216. HomeOfLove Jul 18th 2012

    Thank you Andrew, for being brave enough to say what needs to be said. As I have become more active in politics, I have become increasingly disappointed by the behavior of self-professed Christians. The hatred and vitriol they spew towards our current president, and towards those who are not in their political party of choice, and even towards those who don’t hold the exact same political views as they do–I am left wondering how their behavior is different from non-believers. (In all fairness, I have seen that occasionally non-believers behavior is far more civil.) I suspect there are a number of people who call themselves Christian, who are either deceived, or who are purposely working for the enemy (the weeds among the wheat) to discourage true Christians & cast a bad light on them. I suspect also, there are many, many Christians who have stunted growth, who as Paul said would be exected to be ready for meat, but instead still require milk–these Christians require our patience & encouragement.

    We are exhorted to pray for our leaders & to love our enemies. The hatred displayed towards our current president is NOT Christian behavior. Our president is not a monster, he is a human being who needs the love and forgiveness of God–as every single one of us do. He is a father of 2 little girls, a husband–I feel for his family & the hurt they must feel at how the man they love is treated and called hurtful/hateful names.

    2 wrongs do not make a right. Yes, we are called to criticize sinful behavior. But we should always be loving the sinner, as we hate the sin. A Christian who enters into politics should not forget that. We can disagree with our leaders, at the same time we should be loving them, & encouraging them in their struggles, and wishing the best for them–just as we should for all our fellow human beings.

  217. Mary Branham, The things you believe are the very reasons those channels should be avoided, except to compare with another view. Limbaugh is a comedian, and some take him so seriously. He is earning a living. See with spiritual eyes.

    And regarding this election in November, as a fellow Christian, I urge you to pray that God shows you, now, who will win it. Just so you know. I know. And ask HIM why also. Without prayer people assume. Assumptions rather than prayer. . .

    Assumptions have more to do with what our forefathers have told us, what the newscasters, the pundits, friends and foes, our own biases speak to us. Assumptions are not from the word of God rightly divided, nor from communion with God. FOX and Limbaugh are no substitute for communication with God. They have an agenda. God will show you what it is, if you’re willing to let Him. Yes, God won’t leave you to hear from Him through FOX and Limbaugh.

    Praying for peace in the Body of Christ this November.

  218. Simon,

    Methinks, Sir, that you miss my point.

    Can one do an evil thing in a holy way? Is there an unsinful way to do a sinful task? To a follower of Christ, the answer should be obvious. Jesus clearing the temple was not an ungodly act. Had he Himself, though, sat down with the money changers in order to “work with them” to “reform” their craft, He would have been as guilty as they of their vice.

    What if you discovered that World War II was not about Hitler – that Hitler was bankrolled by Wall Street (that’s right, in New York, USA), and that the Holocaust was a Zionist action aimed at driving Jews into the Rothschild-purchased land they called “Israel”? Was it right for America to just go blindly along with that plan? Was it the “Christian thing to do”?

    US Christians, by and large, DO place their hope in politics. They also put their faith in lawyers and licensed drug pushers and toxic chemical witchcraft in a bottle. They “worship” in pagan fashion every Sunday. They sacrifice their children to Molech in the name of education. And it’s all evil. So I’d say that Andrew didn’t say it strongly enough.

    What you don’t know is that the USA – most of the WORLD, for that matter – is run from behind the scenes … that nothing that you see in the media and textbooks about democracy or republic or any form of “democratic” government is for real. It IS a total waste of time, if not bowing to the devil himself, to try to do or believe otherwise.

  219. Kay,

    We do not have a “healthcare system that saves lives.” We have a sick-care system that is the leading cause of death in the USA. Yes, medical doctors and pharmaceutical drugs are the leading cause of death. And we have cancer (which is totally man-made) still only because there is a “cancer cure” industry that makes billions of dollars each year killing people with cancer treatments.

    God created our bodies to heal themselves. He put healing in the leaves of plants. On the other hand, no chemical drug can heal; it simply alters symptoms, like chasing around air bubbles in a water mattress. Look up the Greek derivation of the word “pharmacy” and you’ll find that it’s witchcraft.

    And after 50 years in politics, I would strongly disagree with your premise that God has a horse in November’s race. If God was honored by America’s founding (and I believe that He was), it was because of the republican form of government that was intended instead of the democracy (communism) that we have today. Any vote for the democracy is a vote against the republic. (So, Mark, why must we presume that God expects us to engage in the “political arena” at all?)

    And, NO, God did not put Obama in office any more than He caused a murderer to kill today or a rapist to rape. He certainly observed it, and He chose not to intervene immediately, but do not put the blame for evil on His shoulders.

  220. Jesus Christ did NOT come to this earth to get involved in politics. He was about His Father’s business ONLY. The Old Testament is so precious to show us the ‘face’ of God’s perfect wisdom verus man’s fickle reasoning. i.e., man is ‘fair': God is Just. Man has his ‘elites': God has His ‘elect’. And it goes on and on.

    Same goes with Christians interpretation of God’s Book. Some are fundalmentalists, some are Evangelicals, etc, and on and on. We will never agree completely. There will be Bible critics on every single subject in the Bible. The Lord will sort it all out in the end. Politics, Tea Party, heritics, My grave concern for Christians is to judge your brother and sister. You may certainly call them out for preaching false doctrine, you can rebuke and correct them on their personal living….But woe to those who judge them from their own hearts! ONLY God is the final Judge. Never forget, “Water spilt on the ground can never be caught up again.” God created sanctuary cities for His purpose.

  221. Here’s what Andrew does not understand:

    1. US Christians are not “ULTRA-POLITICAL”, they have no ‘hope’ in politics, but they do believe they have the responsibility to influence politics for good. Just as we try to influence for good in other areas of life. And you can represent Christ while involved in secular politics, just like you can represent Christ while in secular work.

    2. If Christians are acting in an UNHOLY manner while involved in TEA party activities that is a separate matter. Let’s encourage people to be involved in the TEA party, and encourage them to represent Christ well.

    3. Of course Jesus was not “PRO-WAR”. US Christians are NOT “the biggest supporters of war in America”, an accusation which is stunningly insulting actually, or at least incredibly ignorant. But US Christians are not pacifists. They believe in standing up to the Hitler’s of this world. They don’t believe that we should have only prayed for revival in the hearts of NAZIs, for example. Andrew, are you a pacifist?

    4. US Christians are for the POOR. Andrew has a left-wing approach to the poverty, which believes that supporting lower taxes is an affront to the poor. The right-wing belief is that lower taxes will keep the nation from bankruptcy (POVERTY) and protect the poor.

    5 Andrew criticizes the idea that politics can solve American problems as “the worst deception of all”, but then says we should not deny HEALTH CARE to the poor! So Andrew supports a political answer for health care, as long as it’s a left-wing political answer. Or health care is ‘political’ when right-wing Christians are involved, but it’s ‘Christian charity’ when there’s a left-wing approach?

    The right-wing care about health care for the poor, but they believe the government’s current political answers will make the health care situation far worse in the long run; especially for the poor.

    6. Andrew criticizes US Christians for mixing Christianity with ‘NATIONALISM’ and says they are attempting to “wrap the cross in the flag”. Perhaps wrap the ‘flag in the cross’ but not the ‘cross in the flag’. Is trying to influence a nation for good, for God, forbidden by the scriptures?

    Britain and New Zealand’s flag have three Christian crosses on them. Does Andrew think those crosses should be removed? Does he think that Christianity should be cast down as the official religion of Great Britain? What should it be replaced with?

    I love you as a Brother Andrew, and you have many good things to say. But I’ve been both sides of these issues over the decades, and have come to see that American Christians are easily misunderstood if viewed from a left-wing perspective.

    peace,
    Simon

  222. Ben,

    Cancer treatments also save people. Sometimes the treatments weaken the body more. But treatments are the best secular man can do. They do often work, and people survive. Point is, the rich and powerful use those same treatments to treat their cancers. Poor and middle class people should have access to those treatments as well in a well-to-do nation. Any compassionate person would think so. A compassionate God allowed the discovery of those methods of treatment. Not only for the rich.

    And after years in ministry, I would strongly disagree with the premise that God sits idly by while the devil has his way. “The powers that be are ordained of God (Rom 13:1).” Those who believe otherwise deny the word of God it’s truth, and are deceiving themselves. God puts down one and sets up another.

    “13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— ” 1 Peter 2

    As for your assumption that God did not put Obama into office, are you saying God spoke that to you? Or do you assume that, based on – what? We need to think about the things we assert about God? Do they line up with Scripture?

    When God answers the prayers of the righteous, there are those who are not praying righteously, but they are praying their own will. Those prayers will not be answered in the manner they prefer. Then, should they say that God did not answer? Or that He punished them by answering differently than they specified?

    When I use the word “prayer” I am referring to praying in agreement with God’s will. How can we know God’s will except we seek His agreement while we pray? Not active or passive tense, but middle tense (Greek) which infers another force within the action (eg. 1 Thes 5:17). In other words, prayer-not of my own will, but led on by God’s anointing me to pray in agreement with His will. I must be somewhat passive in order to hear to submit to His will. God is not obligated to do my own will. But I am obligated to find His will and pray it.

    With this type of prayer I will not be disappointed, nor upset at God’s will. I will have prayed it with Him. I will have known His will ahead of time, and expect it to take place, regardless whether I began with that end at heart.

    God’s people are going through transformation. Right now is an opportunity to get in His will–God’s program. His ways are not our ways. We understand that some would not have chosen Obama if they were God. But the righteous understand that we are not God. God makes His Own decisions and chooses His own way for His Own reasons.

    As well, God will choose the Congress this fall. Some very interesting events will take place this next year. God is KING. He is absolute Sovereign. Nothing is out of His control. In His presence, you will find the answers and be able to speak the truth. Draw nigh to God and He will draw nigh to you (James 4:8).

  223. Andrew,

    Thank you for writing your “Tea Party” post. It caused me to think about my country. And then I read your post above –

    “One thing that a lot of Christians have been deceived about is that America was founded by the Revolutionaries as a “Christian” nation. But exactly how many of these founders were not Christians, but rather Deists and Free Masons?”

    Brother, you are right on!! Have we ever questioned why, if we were founded as a “Christian” nation, that the free masons laid the cornerstones of our federal buildings dedicating them to their god (osiras), why the Apotheosis of George Washington is the fresco on our capitol rotunda, why the monument to George Washington is a neo-egyptian obleisk, or why our currency carries a picture of the all seeing eye atop an uncapped pyramid?

    Just wondering.

  224. Kay,

    Cancer treatments of chemo therapy and radiation do NOT save people. They KILL people. Cancer is not a disease; it is a toxic reaction. It is entirely man-made.

    You, like many in “ministry,” misread Romans 13. The true authorities – those that draw their authority from the only Source of Authority and His law – are, indeed, ordained by God. But those who abuse power in the name of authority are NOT ordained by God. Read past verses 1 and 2, please.

    God never ordained civil government. Read I Samuel 8:4-7. Israel’s insistence on a civil government, so they could be like the rest of the world, was an act of rejection of God. He said so.

    That said, ANYONE who stands on the authority of God’s law speaks from authority to which we are to submit: THAT is the message of Romans 13 and I Peter 2.

    As to your assertion that God will choose the Congress this fall, do you suppose that He will also choose what Mafia family will prevail in New York and Chicago? But then I repeat myself …

  225. L. Alex Smith Jul 18th 2012

    I find it interesting that the word “Laodicea” means: the rule of the laity, or the people; and the word “Democracy” means: the rule of the people. Whereas “Philadelphia” means: the (affectionate) love of the brethren. Read the letter to Philadelphia, and the following one to Laodicea, in Revelation 3. Jesus does call Laodicea “those I love”, but He has nothing good to say about them. Philadelphia, on the other hand, has no rebuke given to it. And to them, He says, “Because you have kept the word of My patience, I also will keep you out of the Hour of Trial that is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell in the earth.” By the direction of your heart, your inner motives, your choices in your pursuit of God (or not), you can choose to which group you will belong.

  226. Andrew, Yesterday, I posted my objections to your views. I certainly respect you and your right to have an opinion and YES I will vote and will encourage everyone I know to do so. YES I do agree that we should not bash our president or politicians in an unchristian way. This is not the issue – given the controversy of this topic please provide your point of view on the following topics in a news letter – maybe a new book…
    1. As Christians ( and that has to be defined as true followers of Christ – not religion which is a lot of made made rules and regulations to control people) are we to ignore evil when it is obvious?
    2. If so why? If not how should we respond?
    3. I think we will all agree that as followers of Christ we should expose evil and stand for truth – right or wrong?
    4. We live a world now where I constantly ask – like Pontius Pilate – What is truth? However, when the government or anyone else compels us to support murder in a mothers womb, to educate our children that homosexuality and gay marriage is acceptable, that giving up our God given rights to the government is the thing to do, to ignore the needs of Israel, etc., in your opinion, what should we do?

    YES we pray, YES we try to speak the truth of the gospel, etc. but again in your opinion, SHOULD we just sit by as we are forced to pay taxes to a government that is passing laws and educating our youth with evil values both of which will land them in eternal damnation (hell)?

    Brother…these are just a few of the questions I have. What do you really believe? I had a young lady tell me once that the abortion she was about to receive must be right because it is provided by and allowed by the government.
    Should I have said anything about the government’s opinion?

    If we do not expose evil in this world – who will? If not me who? If not now when?
    Please do not tell me that Jesus would have us sit silent and do nothing. We are to be the light? Yes or No? Perhaps you do not agree but , in my opinion, if I see evil I will expose it; if I can save someone from hell I will tell the truth even if it hurts their feelings and that includes the President and the Pope! Every time I preach I use the Word of God – and if that hurts feelings ok – the alternative is to tickle their ears and let you go on your merry way without hurt feelings to HELL.

    Brother, I really would like to ask that you write a news letter that really provides the answers to these questions with Biblical references including both Old and New Testaments. The Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever….I don’t think that His ways have changed eventually the bible seems to suggest that He will bring Old Testament judgment into action. YES or NO?

    What an opportunity the Lord has given His true followers to witness to His truth even if His plan is to destroy nations. I personally cannot be silent while many are being taught evil and going to hell because of evil. God’s will be done…but part of His will is to bring the gospel and truth of salvation to the nations.
    WHAT AN OPPORTUNITY WE NOW HAVE
    Nuf Sed

    “I’ve got The Father on my side, Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit and 2/3 of the angels. What do you think I’m going to do? Sit down and cry?” – Leonard Ravenhill

  227. Folks, the problem is the method we choose whereby to expose and combat evil. Nothing you see is what you think it is, whether politics, religion, law, medicine or education. All of those areas are captivated by behind-the-scenes groups that use them to keep people captive and spinning their wheels about things that mean nothing. And we’ve done it so long that very few really know what’s going on. You are wasting your time if you think the way to reform the world is through politics, whether red, blue, green … or tea party. It’s all a scam. (The same is true for education reform, church reform, legal reform or “healthcare.”) There ARE people who are making a difference, but you won’t see them anywhere near the “public front” of those arenas.

  228. Martin Jul 19th 2012

    How sad so many on JBTV are so devoted to worldliness and not Godliness. How sad it is such venom and vitriol is directed toward a brother in Christ.

    More sad, there is a marked lack of the Holy Spirit inspiring these replies. Fruit is clearly absent when discussing American politics, it seems. Love, joy, gentleness, peace … why have they evaporated on this subject?

    What part have you, disciples of Jesus, with matters of the world? Your concern is the Kingdom of Heaven, first and last.

    Why so surprised when politicians deceive? Deception is their stock-in- trade. Why the present howls of righteous anger? We’ve all been deceived all our lives. Did you not know that?

    And here, a heart felt word of apology is due Andrew by the many. He hasn’t deserved the treatment meted out him on this and the previous thread.

  229. Occultism ,that is the new ism if you were to sum it up in one word and at the heart of it is the masons which have been active in America from the beginning and they repented not of their sorceress .

    Kathleen in WA State: Maybe the great shaking you speak of will be martial law and taking guns and the right to vote.

  230. Rick-Stanwood Jul 19th 2012

    I wonder what John The Baptist would have to say? His name is on the website-
    right?

  231. Ibelieve Jul 19th 2012

    Honestly, I don’t understand why everyone is acting like Andrew is a martyr here. Whenever anyone speaks the truth in this day and hour it is going to be drawing some type of opposition and or persecution even if its verbal.

    Subjects on Politics and religion are known for causing “heated” debates.

    Here is what those who speak the truth are promised:

    1 Peter 4:11-13

    11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

    12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.

    No its not pleasant to see people who call themselves Christian railing on someone. Anytime you get into peoples grey areas the heat is going to be turned up.

    16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues.

    I Cors.
    9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

    It may be hard for the human mind to comprehend but we are made stronger in our weaknesses, needs, persecutions, etc.

    Gary

  232. Martin Jul 19th 2012

    Gary, we are made stronger in our weaknesses, needs, persecutions, etc.

    Seems like a good reason to leave the world alone, don’t you think?

  233. Rick-Stanwood Jul 19th 2012

    Is JBTV New Testament Prophetic? Acts13, “Now in the church that was at
    Antioch there were certain prophets…sent out by the holy spirit…” What say the prophets?

  234. First off, if Christ was the pattern Son, and His purpose in ministry was to do the will of the Father (bring the Kingdom into an earthly realm), then why are we so busy following the flesh instead of being led by the Spirit. It must be that we haven’t matured enough (understood Sonship) at this point. It could also be that most are practicing churchanity (a form of religion), instead of allowing Christ to REALLY live His life in you and through you. In otherwords, “wait upon Him.”

    The Lord never entangled Himself in the affiars of politics, and etc; He only did the will of God. Many of us are STILL doing our wills!
    Our converstion is in heaven(the Spirit) , not in this earthly realm.

  235. Martin Jul 19th 2012

    Gary, right on, man!

  236. Hi Joan, You are still making me smile… :-)

  237. We only have to look at how Christians in China or Muslim ruled countries engage with politics to see a NT example in these times we live.

  238. dritan Jul 19th 2012

    tea party has nothing to do with Jesus PARTY. Shake the dust off your feet and go on bro

  239. Andrew Jul 19th 2012

    Again – for those interested in the *REAL* faith of the “Founders”
    – how many of them were not Christians, but rather Deists and FreeMasons? An excellent documentary on this topic – made by believers – is below-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU24fJ4NQxo

    Bless you all.

    Andrew Strom.

  240. Thank you Andrew J.

    I just want all of us to be on the same page of Love and commitment to Almighty God. He’s already told us He is the final Judge of All mankind. Our squrrily little minds can’t help but be too nosy and ‘right’ for our own good. It’s a Holy Joy to keep our eyes on Him, no matter what our circumstances.

    To keep us grounded, just remember: We win either way. Amen?!

  241. Amen Joan,

    Many are the afflictions of the righteous, But the LORD delivers him out of them all. (Psalm 34:19 NASB)

    Praise the Lord for His deliverance of us from ourselves… :-)

    Hallelujah!!!

    Thank You Jesus…

    Love in the Lord,

    Andrew

  242. The FOUNDING FATHERS did include all sorts of unChristian types, but that’s exactly the point. God fearing Christian men joined together with others to help found the USA.

    So why shoudln’t good Christians join with others in the TEA party to help steer the US on the right path?

    peace,
    Simon

  243. Here is another point of view –

    The Biblical Basis for Christians in Politics and Government
    by Ellen Craswell
    http://www.whateveristrue.com/heritage/ticipate.htm

    As our campaign for Governor grows, many people are interested in the Biblical basis for Christian involvement in politics and government.

    This was the true driving force behind America’s founding fathers(who based the Constitution on specific Biblical, Judeo-Christian principles). It is also the foundation of this campaign and of my service as Governor, should God see fit to place me in that office.

    Regarding the principles in this article, I am very grateful to Pastor Thomas Minnick, whose Biblical teaching has helped to bring these truths to life in me and in many others.

    Why Get Involved?
    Crisis and civic duty are inferior and ineffective motivation for Christians who take seriously their charge to seek God’s will for their lives. Why participate if this is not surely God’s desire? Sadly, 20th century preaching often discouraged our involvement in the “worldly” business of politics and government.

    Yet Christians have not always hesitated to “get involved” in American civil government. Rather, for much of our history, Christians were deeply committed to this role. In fact, most of our founding fathers were outstanding Christians (as opposed to the very few deists, agnostics or atheists constantly highlighted by today’s anti-Christian elite).

    More Christians must now realize the Biblical basis for involvement. It then becomes a matter of obedience to God.

    As Christians consider their responsibility, there are three vital principles to remember.

    First, government is God’s institution! Civil government exists and functions by God’s command, not because cave men created a social contract.

    Civil government began in Genesis 9:1-7, when God instructed Noah after the flood. In Exodus 20-22, God through Moses gives a specific pattern for civil government.

    Scripture is full of God’s sovereignty and interest in civil government. In Daniel 2:20-21, God removes and sets up rulers. In Proverbs 21:1, he turns a ruler’s heart. In Romans 13:1, He ordains civil powers. Clearly, government is not a secular institution but a God-ordained institution.

    A second key principle is that God has every right to direct His institutions. Indeed, Scripture reveals God’s will, rules and leadership qualities for the home, the church… and the government!

    Christians are quite familiar with Biblical expectations for the family and the church. Yet many are amazed to realize that our country’s Constitution and many of its laws and punishments are based on civil government rules of conduct that are spelled out in the Bible.

    Exodus 21-22 addresses manslaughter, premeditated murder, assault, kidnapping (and slavery), abortion, infanticide, property crimes, criminal negligence, assaulting parents, robbery and bestiality.

    Leviticus 13, 20 and other passages address such issues as public health laws and homosexuality.

    In Deuteronomy 17-22 are laws regarding violation of a court order, perjury, malicious accusations, building codes (no regulatory scheme, it just sets the standards for responsible conduct and punishes wrongs), juvenile delinquency and rape.

    God also gives qualifications for leadership, both in the church (1 Timothy 3:1-7) and in civil government (Exodus 18:21). Imagine our state and nation under leaders with these Biblical qualities: “able” and “fears God” and speaks “truth” and “hates covetousness”!

    The third vital principle to remember is that secularizing government is an affront to a Holy God! We are often told that government and politics should be secular. But would we allow Biblical Christianity to be excluded from our homes or churches? So why quietly capitulate to arguments saying we should keep God’s Word and God’s people out of God’s institution of civil government?

    We need to petition God for revival before privatization of our faith results in complete secularization of government.

    Biblical Governing
    Once Christian involvement in the political process bears fruit in the election of a Godly person, it is crucial for that individual to understand and obey Biblical principles in office. Among these are four principles.

    First, we must understand that civil leaders are “ministers of God” (Romans 13:3-4). This relates to the principle of ACCOUNTABILITY. The role of a civil leader is to enable government to fulfill God’s purposes. Civil leaders are doing the will of God in establishing justice and maintaining civil order. They are accountable to God for the faithful discharge of their ministry responsibilities. A person’s behavior in office is positively affected by knowing that he must answer to God.

    A second principle, that of DESTINY, understand the reality of sovereign appointments. A civil leader serves at God’s pleasure! “…He (God) removeth kings, and setteth up kings…” (Daniel 2:21). “For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. But God is the judge: He putteth down one, and setteth up another” (Psalm 75:6-7). God places people in leadership for His specific purposes — for His benefit, not theirs! “…Who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?” (Esther 4:14). We must ask ourselves, “Why has God put me here? What does He want me to accomplish?”

    Understanding man’s tendency to compromise, we also recognize the principle of DEPENDENCY. Leaders are called on to make hard decisions! Recall Solomon and the baby (1 Kings 3:16- 27). Elected office requires more wisdom and courage than any person has. If one trusts in human wisdom (pollsters, consultants or even his own wisdom), he will usually be frightened into doing the wrong thing. Yet, “…lean not unto thine own understanding” (see Proverbs 3:5-6).

    It is hard to know what is right! It is even harder to do what is right! Our only hope is a right relationship with God — living each day dependent upon Him for wisdom to know the right thing and courage to do the right thing. Don’t fear the voters, fear God!

    The fourth essential is to understand God’s purpose for civil government, the principle of JURISDICTION. What is the reason for government? Looking at history, man began in a state of innocence, and all was good. There was no need for government (see Genesis 1:27-28, 31). But sin entered the picture (see Genesis 4:3-10, 6:1-6) and God ordained civil government (see Romans 13:1). It is God’s institution, begun by His creative act. Further, God is in control of government. “The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: He turneth it withersoever He will” (Proverbs 21:1).

    In considering the role of government, we must discern the jurisdictions of Caesar or God (Matthew 22:15-21). The church and civil government are made necessary by the same thing (sin), but do not have identical responsibilities. The humanist view of the role of government is to perfect mankind. The Scriptural view of the role of government is to protect mankind.

    Scripture shows that civil government is charged with a limited responsibility to protect life and property. Previously listed passages from Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and many others, indicate this.

    A civil leader must decide that he will take a Scriptural view of the limited role of government in society! For example, God’s plan for welfare does not involve civil government. People who are in need of temporary help are directed to look primarily to the family (see 1 Timothy 5:3-8), secondarily to the church (see 1 Timothy 5:9-16 and Acts 6:1-2), or finally to neighbors in the community (see Leviticus 19:9-10, 23:22).

    Clearly, God’s plan vastly differs from the present system, which is such a monumental failure. The humanistic plan is publicly funded, coercive and creates cycles of dependency. The Biblical plan is a private program, voluntary and allows the poor to retain their dignity.

    Anyone who reads through the Bible can see that God’s ways bring blessings and man’s ways bring destruction. Yet so often we all try, try again to do whatever seems right in our own eyes, thinking somehow that we in our day can escape the unavoidable consequences that are spelled out in God’s Word. Having “done our own thing” for decades, we are now suffering the gaping devastation of crime, broken homes, abused and aborted children, sexual immorality, drug and alcohol problems, corrupt government, reckless taxing and spending, warped welfare programs and deficient education.

    Half-hearted measures will never solve these full- scale problems. The answer begins with a return to God and his ways. “And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve… but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord” (Joshua 24:15).

    [Ellen Craswell served as Washington State Representative (1977- 1980), State Senator (1981-1992), and was the first woman named President Pro Tem of the Senate (1991-1992).

  244. Smokey77 Jul 19th 2012

    Andrew: you didn’t post my original response to your article…must have run out of space. Anyway, much of what you say is correct. You made a serious mistake, however, in becoming that which you protest: you politicize the issue by telling people to turn off FOX news. Fox presents a more accurate story than does CNN, MSNBC, Reuters, AP, etc…I subscribe to a number or Christian web sites, and even they spin the issues…one should either try to read as many sources as possible, or just stay out of the picture. But to stay out of the picture is to capitulate to the adversary, the devil…so whatchagonnado? It’s a conundrum.

  245. Andrew Jul 19th 2012

    PBob – please take the time to watch at least part of the Christian documentary below – about the Founding Fathers. -Very important-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU24fJ4NQxo

    Andrew Strom.

  246. “government is God’s institution! Civil government exists and functions by God’s command” False. As pointed out above with the reference to I Samuel, God did NOT ordain civil government. Civil government exists as man’s rebellion against God. It may be redeemed only insofar as it asserts no basis but the law of God.

    “civil leaders are “ministers of God” (Romans 13:3-4)” False. Anyone who stands on God’s law as his authority is a minister of God. There is no reference here to civil government, but there can be no basis for any “civil government” but the law of God. If it strays from that law one iota, it is, to that extent, illegitimate.

  247. Ben said earlier: “What if you discovered that World War II was not about Hitler – that Hitler was bankrolled by Wall Street (that’s right, in New York, USA), and that the Holocaust was a Zionist action aimed at driving Jews into the Rothschild-purchased land they called “Israel”? Was it right for America to just go blindly along with that plan? Was it the “Christian thing to do”?”
    ___________

    The land was promised and given by God Himself. Any return of Israel to their promised land will be the result of GOD’s promise and God’s intervention and has nothing to do with some anti-semitic conspiracy theory.

  248. Ibelieve Jul 19th 2012

    Martin wrote:
    Gary, we are made stronger in our weaknesses, needs, persecutions, etc.

    Seems like a good reason to leave the world alone, don’t you think?

    Martin
    Your definitely right here. Gary/I believe

    P.S. There is more then one Gary on this board is why I use the screen name, I believe. Sorry for any confusion, the other Gary’s comment is from someone else.

  249. Who is Israel?

  250. Israel is who Israel has always been.

    It’s clear enough when you read and follow the bible instead of following man’s theology and conspiracies.

  251. atherton Jul 19th 2012

    To all who think the founding fathers were Christian.
    They were not they were Masons, and further more the Masons were more Occult than anything.

  252. No, we who are followers of Christ are grafted in as Abraham’s seed. The nation of Israel rejected God. God’s blessing flows to Abraham’s seed, which is no longer a nation which rejected Him but all those who love Him and follow Him.

  253. Teshuva Jul 19th 2012

    @Ben,
    Those who have God as their Father are Israel.

  254. Correct. Which is not a strip of land in Palestine nor those who live there (unless, of course, they as individuals follow Him).

  255. George Luther Jul 19th 2012

    And now Andrew has further aligned himself with the Marxist left’s push to rewrite history and assert that our Founding Fathers were actually a bunch of deists instead of Christians.

    Yeah–guess that’s why the Thanksgiving declaration unanimously issued by our Founding Fathers in the Continental Congress in 1777 give thanks to Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, cause that’s what deists do.

    Andrew has completely and totally lost it.

  256. George Luther Jul 19th 2012

    I notice that Andrew has been removing posts disagreeing with his apostasy and then the poster is not seen from again–would assume Andrew is blocking that poster from posting again.

    Seems Andrew is deftly blocking/limiting dissenting views in order to surround himself with those who tickle his ears.

    Andrew should accurately rename his site Andrewthelooneyleftisttv. Very sad to see someone who at one point seemed to actually fear God turn into such a heretic.

  257. Israel may have rejected God, but unless God is a liar He has not rejected Israel (descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). see Jeremiah 31 for details of God’s continuing relationship with Israel and what He has planned for their future.

    Israel has not been replaced by the church, by the USA, or by anyone else. When scripture speaks of Israel it refers to a particular people chosen and defined by God – not a different people of man’s choosing.

    Promises and prophecies in scripture that are addressed to Israel relate to that God defined people and can not be arbitrarily reapplied to others.

  258. God is not a liar, but one can put lies in something and call it His mouth. Modern day Israel is not the Israel of the OT and is no more worthy of special consideration by God’s people than Poland, Russia or Pakistan.

  259. George Luther, your bigotry reveals your current allegiance AND the source of your attitudes.

    You clearly don’t recognise how much you have fallen for the cultural conditioning you have been subjected to.

    Please turn to God, seek HIm and His will. He can free you from the political bondage you’ve been subjected to. HIS Truth will set you free.

    Put your trust in JESUS and not in a corrupt national mythology.

  260. Ben, Israel is Israel as defined by God. Nothing has been said (apart from your assumption) that “modern day Israel” is the Israel of the OT.

    READ the OT and see God’s (so far unfulifilled) promises to Israel to return them to the land HE promised to them.
    Whether or not “modern day Israel” is a step towards that fulfillment, time will tell. But one day GOD’s Israel will be returned to their promised land, they will recognise their Messiah and will enter the new covenant.

    HE has not forsaken them. HE will never forsake them, no matter how many times they have forsaken Him.

    Read Jeremiah 31 as previously suggested.

  261. Teshuva Jul 19th 2012

    What was the land of Israel called before 1948?

  262. Friendly Neighbor Jul 19th 2012

    Andrew, for the most part I can agree that our battle is not against flesh and blood. Your previous post did, indeed, sound like you were a liberal Democrat plant trying to pose as a “teavangelical.” I am glad that you clarified your position, however. I must say that I will continue to listen to the Limbaughs and Foxnews’s just like I will listen to what the Huffington Post and New York Times have to say. It would be nice if people refused to tolerate anything but a serious debate of the ideas and insisted that their be some accountability for a platform AFTER the election. Alas, we live in a sound-bite generation. As for strident harshness in political discourse I credit that to politicians and worldliness (even if it comes from Christians). Go to the source and read it for yourself and take your position in fact, not emotion. We are the problem–we are the solution (by the grace of God).

  263. DeWayne Jul 19th 2012

    Andrew… Thank you for advising about YouTube video on ‘Founding Fathers.” I wounder how many know these leaders did not trusted citizens voting for a President, but had a convoluted plan for Electoral College… that would shock most that looked into this mocking of ‘We The People’.

    Thank you for (suggesting) all vote, and am sure you do know this will not change these last days as God has prophesied. Better plan is fill the lamp and trim the wick… quickly.

    No we do not fight as the world with worldly weapon’s, Ben here appears one of the few that took to heart “Therefore be as shrewd/wise as (the) snake/serpent…”, and very likely knows how to vote. Also cognizant of not engaging in the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather (exposes) them.

    Ben… These “Christians” so wise, speak of Jews, a word added to our Bible in the 18th century. May I say Israel as a people still living, scattered in all nations (including some in Palestine since 70AD) , will be gathered into the wolderness of these nations, brought into new covenant, and those judged as rebel in revolt against God will NOT enter (eternal) Israel… where is found the New Jerusalem and Temple made by the hand of God.

  264. Teshuva, what was the land of Israel called before the Romans changed it to Palestine?
    By what name did GOD call it?

    And as I mentioned earlier – the true identity of the people of Israel is not determined by questions about the legitimacy of the current nation state. It is determined by God’s promises – which include a return to the land HE gave them.

    The current nation might be the first stage of that return (or maybe not) but clearly its not not the complete fulfilment of the prophesied and promised return ( foretold by almost every OT prophet).

    Enough has been said on this off-topic issue. The truth is in scripture for those willing to seek it out. And it is clearly and simply stated, needing no special “interpretation”.

  265. Right. So we ALL agree, then, right, that the modern day nation called Israel is NOT in any way the Israel spoken of in the Bible (though some of Israel may be found there, just as some of the church may be found every Sunday in that institutional idol that calls itself church but is NOT the church).

  266. DeWayne Jul 19th 2012

    Ben….
    I would add one thing, the House of Israel (10-tribes) were conquered and taken away around 721BC, the people in Israel-land during Christs ministry were the House of Judah (2-tribes), and perhaps a few that escaped the conquering of the Northern Tribes in 721.

    Also between 70AD-1900 there was found about 300,000 that had returned to their Palestine “Homeland”, living in peace as commanded by Torah with their Palestinian neighbors (after 600AD also Muslim neighbors). This was true until 1900’s when Zionist decided they wanted a (nation) “Homeland” in Palestine.

  267. Andrew Jul 19th 2012

    Please don’t turn this thread into an Off-Topic “Israel” discussion.

    Thanks.

    -Andrew

  268. Brother Andrew:

    I agree with most of what you said about the Tea Party. However, there is one area where – having grown up in New Zealand – you may lack understanding; specifically, the matter of WAR.

    When asked about the signs of the End Times, Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars. Nation would rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. Given that reality, if you have grown up in America, you are likely to have been involved in war. From America’s War of Independence until now, America has been involved in almost every major war since – the War of 1812, the Civil War, World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, and through the years, a multitude of minor conficts throughout the globe. I’m not saying we should have been involved in all these wars; I’m just saying we were involved.

    Now, with that in mind, I would say that most American families have had loved ones who served in the military, and many have family members who are veterans of war. As for the Tea Party, I would venture to say the vast majority of them have had fathers, mothers, husbands, wives, sons, daughters, or grandchildren who have, or are now serving in the military. And, many have probably lost loved ones in war. Given that reality, when you speak against war, you strike a nerve in most Americans, and probably all Tea Party members.

    Personally, I gradulated from college during the Vietnam War. Figuratively speaking, it was as if I was handed a diploma in one hand and a draft notice in the other. I served more than ten years in the United States Marine Corps, including a combat tour of duty in Vietnam. I would have made the Marine Corps my life career, except the Lord called me into the ministry.

    Interestingly, it was in the Marine Corps, due to the influence of Spirit-filled Marine Corps officers, that I received the Holy Spirit Baptism. When I made the decision of leave the Marine Corps, some of my fellow military brothers in Christ encouraged me to stay, citing that I could find no greater mission field than the military. In fact, during my time in the USMC, I led two of my fellow officers to the Lord.

    Today, although my service is long since over, I still support our troops wherever they may be serving, and fighting. I may not always agree with our government’s policies, but I ALWAYS SUPPORT OUR TROOPS. And, this issue is very strong with Tea Party members. Of course, if you support the troops, you are also supporting the war effort.

    This is a reality in America, probably more so than any nation on earth. It will be a wonderful time when Jesus returns as the Prince of Peace, and there will be no more war. However, for now, we are experiencing what Jesus said we should expect in the End Times – wars and rumors of wars. I’m not saying it is right; I’m not saying it is best. I’m just saying it is reality.

  269. Sorry Andrew.
    My inital intent was to clear up the anti-semitic claims that had been made in earlier comments and I now repeat what I wrote above:

    Enough has been said on this off-topic issue. The truth is in scripture for those willing to seek it out. And it is clearly and simply stated, needing no special “interpretation”.

  270. Thomas Jul 19th 2012

    As an American I agree completely with you Andrew.
    The sad and simple fact is that you can’t have revival without a broken heart and love for the lost, and you can’t have a heart for the lost if instead of loving them you are mad at them!
    Unfortunately that is the state the American Church is in, and without loving our enemies as ourselves and praying for their salvation, instead of their destruction, revival will never come to America. Thank you for speaking the truth.
    Tom B.

  271. jorgedelaselva Jul 19th 2012

    Mr. Strom, you have recently made your comments known in regards to what we in the USA loosely call the TEA Party movement. You have quoted one organization (Tea Party .org). If you do a computer search you will see that this is only one of many groups who espouse Tea Party values. TeaParty.net has a complete and very accurate description of the loose grass roots group known as the Tea Party in its mission statement on its home page.

    Jesus gave us a pertinent parable in Matthew 13, it is a parable about wheat and tares. It is impossible to distinguish the difference between the two until the fruit of the harvest begins to come onto the wheat. At this point we are told not to try and separate the tares from the wheat as we will surely diminish the wheat harvest also. St. Augustine said of this parable, “O you Christians, whose lives are good, you sigh and groan as being few among many, few among very many. The winter will pass away, the summer will come; lo! The harvest will soon be here. The angels will come who can make the separation, and who cannot make mistakes. … I tell you of a truth, my Beloved, even in these high seats there is both wheat, and tares, and among the laity there is wheat, and tares. Let the good tolerate the bad; let the bad change themselves, and imitate the good…..”

    Let me add even among the Democrats and the Republicans and the Tea Party folk who desire a purer return to following our constitution there are wheat and tares. If it is impossible to extinguish the tares from the church surely it is also impossible for a political movement to be weed free also. Does that mean that Christians should stay out of the political scene because it is not totally spiritual, not necessarily, there is a time to love and there is a time to hate, there is a time for peace and there is time for war. In fact the one who deeply desires to follow Jesus will understand that there is a time when action against evil is called for when Jesus said “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.”

    The American Constitution is the document that makes our country great. It is the document that gives us the liberty that allows every American to do what is right in his own eyes as long as he does not violate another person’s right. Just as Israel under the judges had the liberty for every man to do what was right in his eyes, so do we. In the past most Americans took this liberty and acknowledged Jesus in all their ways and He has prospered us with the Godly desires of our heart. So there are two ingredients that made us a great nation our liberty and our desires to follow God.

    To you non Americans who now feel that I have made a pompous statement in calling America a great nation , let me ask you, can you go to the retail stores in your small cities that are far removed from major population centers and find goods from every continent on the globe, but more importantly do you see people at that small town who also have immigrated from every continent on the globe now living in the land of liberty. The people in the local Walmart in outstate Nebraska are all nationalities and all colors. That is part of what heaven is like. Is it like this in any other countries?

    This nation has seen countless immigrants for many many decades come here and be extremely successful. Recently, Vietnamese and Sudanese have come here and rather than having to work all day just to get some wood for fire and little bit of dirty water and a few scraps of food, they have found out that they can take their liberty and work hard and even at minimum wage they can prosper. And as they learn to work hard, employers take notice and reward them better, and some of these hard workers become entrepreneurs and they become rich. They learn how to take their talents and occupy like Jesus told them to in Luke 19.13 and because they are in a great country that believes that they have the GOD given right to be free they do succeed greatly.

    So is it worth fighting politically to see these God given rights not deteriorate any further? I say yes. Is this a spiritual fight? I say yes . There is a time to hate the direction that our President is taking this country. Our President is required by the Constitution to uphold our laws; he has totally ignored federal law known as Defense of Marriage Act which defines marriage as between a man and a woman. Is that a spiritual battle or not? I hate it and I think God does also. Obama’s health secretary is requiring abortion and contraception to be standard health procedures, even among practitioners who morally object, of course they can pay a small fine of $100 per day per employee. Is that a spiritual battle or not? I hate it and I think God does also.

  272. Andrew Jul 19th 2012

    America is indeed a great nation. And it is GOD and CHRISTIANITY that made it great – not the Constitution. It is REVIVALS and AWAKENINGS that kept it great – not Politics.

    Now that America is losing these things, she is losing everything.

    Sad.

    -Andrew Strom

  273. DeWayne Jul 19th 2012

    Sorry Andrew…. like Onesimua (Tim)

  274. jorgedelaselva asked:
    “To you non Americans who now feel that I have made a pompous statement in calling America a great nation , let me ask you, can you go to the retail stores in your small cities that are far removed from major population centers and find goods from every continent on the globe, but more importantly do you see people at that small town who also have immigrated from every continent on the globe now living in the land of liberty.”
    __________________

    For the most part the answer to your question is YES. Most western nations can say YES.

    But unlike yourself we KNOW that our nations are no greater in this regard than others. We are not ignorant of what goes on in other nations and do not see ourselevs as being or achieving something unique and special.

    Nations outside of the USA are usually very aware of nations other than themselves and we are especially aware of what goes on in the USA – having been subjected to its culture for decades.

    In closing, the USA is not more “the land of liberty” than any other nation. Like other nations it is under the bondage of sin. Liberty is found in NO nation – it is found only in and through Jesus.

  275. DeWayne Jul 19th 2012

    Jorgedelasova
    Are you saying we should not judge these things (inside) the church. In fact those things outside the church (as light and salt) in the world are also to be discipled

    I believe some confuse judging as ‘Final Destruction’, when in fact the (mature) as commanded and fulfilling the Lord Gods purpose and not their own, will make judgments in all things.

    When believers (Christians) yoke themselves with unbelievers, be it Tea or Whatever, it opens a channel for Satan and his servants/ This has already happened many times… allowing Satan to rightly charge “Christianity is Cause of All Wars and Strife On Earth.”

  276. Ezekiel Rose Jul 19th 2012

    We’re in a lot of trouble! Record breaking drought is upon the land and corn crops are failing. Food prices around the world will increase. Didn’t David Wilkerson prophecy about drought in America? It looks like we’re in for another depression dust bowl.

    This is tribulation adding to our economic woes.

  277. Andrew Jul 19th 2012

    Yes – it looks very bad, Ezekiel.

    Sadly, Judgments are in the land.

    Bless you,

    Andrew

  278. Parts of Australia recently came out of a decade long drought.

    When it was dry there was a lot of talk about prayer for rain. But there was very little thought of God for any reason other than restoring the comfort and security put at risk by the drought

  279. WARNING:

    Christian J. Pinto is the guy who did the “The Hidden Faith of The Founding Fathers” documentary on YouTube.

    I did my own research on Christian J. Pinto and would not and can not endorse any of his work.

    Please do your own research before sending anyone to view this documentary on YouTube.

    If you would still want to view the documentary check it against some Historical Writings from the Wall Builders site.

    Historical Writings

    Here is an overview of the WallBuilders.
    site.

    “WallBuilders is an organization dedicated to presenting America’s forgotten history and heroes, with an emphasis on the moral, religious, and constitutional foundation on which America was built – a foundation which, in recent years, has been seriously attacked and undermined. In accord with what was so accurately stated by George Washington, we believe that “the propitious [favorable] smiles of heaven can never be expected on a nation which disregards the eternal rules of order and right which heaven itself has ordained.”

  280. Christain J. Pinto’s own site – for those who would like to assess him for themselves.

    It seems that Berean Call has given a good asessement of the “Hidden Faith” video.

  281. Oops forgto to add the link:

    http://www.noiseofthunder.com/

  282. Andrew Jul 19th 2012

    I like the way the guy comes across – and his research also seems sound from everything I can see.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  283. RESPONSE TO

    The Hidden Faith of the Founding Fathers” — Who Were They Hiding It From?

    Blessings to you all,
    Cindy

  284. In discussion on my own blog a contributor has pinpointed what I see as the heart of the issue being addressed here.

    It’s not about policies (good or bad) – it is about the attitude and actions of professing Christians directed towards elected leaders – leaders they have been commanded to pray for; not to vilify or even to praise.

    PRAY for.

    Not so they will bring comfort and prosperity but for the freedom to preach the gospel.

    Note again PRAY for,

    Not lobby and badger and insult and protest against…

  285. Andrew Jul 19th 2012

    Yes – that is the heart of it, Tim.

    Well said.

    -Andrew.

  286. Don’t even bother , these people are not saved, they are just religious, if they were saved they would not act like they do. They would look , talk , walk like Jesus.

  287. truthseeker2 Jul 19th 2012

    Yes Hasina, I think you summed it all up rather well.

    Tim (Onesimus). Do you have a link for your blog?

  288. George Luther Jul 19th 2012

    Dear Cindy,

    Thanks for your post warning on Christian J. Pinto. Unfortunately, Andrew’s idea of scholarly research has regressed of late and now consists of searching youtube until he finds a video that support his Marxist interpretation of American history. Too bad he doesn’t actually read historical documents himself that the Founding Fathers actually produced.

    Very sad how Andrew’s once zeal for the Lord has been replaced by hate speech towards Christian Americans and pushing the Marxist agenda to rewrite American history.

    Yeah — the USA shouldn’t have gotten involved in the nasty politics of WWII. Then Andrew’s ancestors would all have gone to Japanese concentration camps and we wouldn’t be putting up with him trying to foist all this nonsense on us now.

  289. atherton Jul 19th 2012

    I no longer have any words to say. I am flabbergasted at how blind people are.
    Andrew tries to bring the truth out and all people can do is attack him.
    May the eyes and hearts of the people be opened to Yeshua before the Second coming.

    Put all your cards in one basket, the basket of Yeshua’s love, and start preparing yourselves for his return.

    No longer look to Politicians to save you, they can’t. Only Yeshua can save

  290. Andrew Jul 19th 2012

    Actually – if you look up scholarly websites – including Christian ones – they all basically agree with Pinto and very strongly against David Barton.

    But it is all beside the point, really.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  291. jorgedelaselva Jul 19th 2012

    Onesimus (Tim)
    You said, (In closing, the USA is not more “the land of liberty” than any other nation. Like other nations it is under the bondage of sin. Liberty is found in NO nation – it is found only in and through Jesus.) Perhaps you ought to consult a dictionary rather than arbitrarily define ‘liberty’ to suit your opinion. I personally like the way Merriam-Webster describes it.
    1: the quality or state of being free:
    a : the power to do as one pleases
    b : freedom from physical restraint
    c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control
    d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges
    e : the power of choice
    The power to do as one pleases is the central liberty that the Israelites received from God. That is the last verse in the Book of Judges. It is interesting to note that as the Israelites wanted to cede some of that liberty to a (political) king, they were in fact, rejecting God. Hmm, liberty, free will, sounds like they are pretty similar to me. A group of people using their liberty to follow God sounds like the formula for a great nation. A group of people following God without liberty sounds like the formula for an Islamic republic.
    You also said, For the most part the answer to your question is YES. Most western nations can say YES. (but more importantly do you see people at that small town who also have immigrated from every continent on the globe now living in the land of liberty) I say name ONE where it is a regular occurrence even in the hinterlands to see a diversity of global people, name ONE that ascribes in its founding documents that it has God given rights.

  292. Andrew Jul 19th 2012

    I guess Tim was speaking of the “spiritual” liberty that can only be found in Christ.

    And I note that the comments are getting a bit “nasty” again.

    Sad that Christians would speak that way.

    Bless you all.

    -Andrew

  293. Charlene Jul 19th 2012

    For Andrew: You are so right. We have a friend who is involved with the Tea Party and sends us political emails all the time. After awhile I quit even reading them. The scripture from II Timothy 2:3-4 says it all, and it surely applies to you, Andrew. It is not any political party that will turn this nation around, but our King and Saviour only! Our nation’s politics mean not a thing to Him, it is our hearts He cares for, and whether they belong to Him . Andrew, do not be discouraged by the backlash of your article. I would say to you just as Yehovah said to Samuel in I Samuel 8:7b, that the people have not rejected you, but rather they have rejected having their Elohim to reign over them. The war we all should be waging is spiritual, not political. But Satan would use the political arena to draw well-meaning people away from what the true fight is. So keep plugging along, Andrew, for this world needs the true voices of Elohim’s prophets. Be blessed…..

  294. Joe Moriarty Jul 19th 2012

    Jesus commended the “Good Samaritan” because he got involved with his neighbors needs. That “neighbor” had been wounded and left half dead by those who plundered and wounded him. The intellectually religious superior people ignored his needs and went about their pious ways.

    While there are extremists in any movement, it seems the Tea Party mindset is closer to the Samaritan caring for others. Love takes action, it does not sit on the sidelines exercising in theological gymnastics. Nor does it look the other way when it sees evil at work.

    We are not to give evil for evil, so the anarchy and venomous accusations should not be part of our stand against it. First, we must submit ourselves to God, asking, “what would you have me do?” What others do they are answerable for, but not to me!

  295. jorgedelaselva Jul 19th 2012

    DeWayne
    you asked, Are you saying we should not judge these things (inside) the church. In fact those things outside the church (as light and salt) in the world are also to be discipled

    One need not judge to be salt and light. Go into the world and get out of the salt/light shaker where nobody notices you. Light in the darkness is noticed. Salt on bland potatoes tastes good. I love going on my job and I get to hobnob with our customers.(It beats the heck out of sitting around a computer for hours on end) That is being salt and light; if they have immoral situations going on perhaps our friendship will allow me to speak about the longsuffering mercy that God wants to provide unto them. That kind of friendship is not yoking with unbelievers, it is reaching out to unbelievers. As Augustine said and as Jesus did in hanging with sinners, ” Let the good tolerate the bad; let the bad change themselves, and imitate the good”
    This friendship can even occur when people unite to restore lost liberties as the loose group known as the TEA Party is doing. And believe me any Tea Party adherents that are unbelievers, they are awake to the lost of our God given liberties in America and they are ripe to be harvested into the true great nation, the KINGDOM. So I say don’t ignore the evil sinners in the evil TEA Party !! Join with them and let’s make this also a return to God as well as a return to liberty.
    Would you dare say as I have been hearing Andrew say that you should not be salt and light unto unbelieving TEA Partiers?

  296. Andrew Jul 19th 2012

    I only wish it were that way around, my friend.

    But sadly it appears that it is the activists who are influencing WE CHRISTIANS to join their political slander campaign – rather than THEM joining us.

    Sad but true

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  297. George Luther Jul 19th 2012

    Dear Joe,

    You statement “Love takes action, it does not sit on the sidelines exercising in theological gymnastics. Nor does it look the other way when it sees evil at work” is well put.

    Jesus Christ bless you abundantly!

  298. Ben,

    The point is, it is not for you to decide which powers are ordained of God. God decides who He will put in power. If He decides to ordain someone you disapprove of, as He has very often done throughout history, they are yet ordained of God.

    The most important point is, that God has created us in such a way that we can communicate with Him. And in that communication HE will share mysteries with us. Yes, li’l ole us. “What is man that HE is mindful of us?” HE IS caring. HE does provide hope, ways for the yet unsaved and those without ample faith to be healed. Through chemotherapy and other medical techniques, GOD has compassionately shared with man revelation for healing. Did God mean for only the rich to access what He freely gave? Really? Shouldn’t everyone be able to access that in this country? Still unanswered.

    The 1% cannot fight their fight out in the open. They would be too obvious. They must rile up the common people to fight for them. Why do you fight for the 1%?

    Another question: What is it the 1% cannot afford to buy? What more could they possibly want? Could it be that they want complete power—total control over all? Is that it? The only worldly dimension yet unattained. With your help . . .

    My assertion about Congress is based on communication with God. GOD is going to do things HIS way. I have found that I am not wiser than HE. The beginning of wisdom is to fear GOD. Kicking against the pricks hurts the heart.

    http://www.ZionHope.net has a word from The Lord, “For This Hour,” about the upcoming election and the end times.

  299. jorgedelaselva Jul 19th 2012

    Andrew,
    The parable of the Wheat and Tares is on your plate to digest. The harvest was ripe at the time of Christ and he attempted to convert the Tares into Wheat before their appointed time of plucking up. (Truly a supernatural endeavor) In the last quarter of the 18th century in a land known as America the Wheat and Tares were still hanging out together (alas the evil one still had evil seed to plant), somehow a great nation with liberty and justice for all with the God given right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness evolved. Do you honestly believe as some silly website may tell you, that God did not supernaturally, use His Wheat amongst the Tares to establish a people with freedom to worship Him? To assume the TEA Party is to be avoided because of the Tares therein is to assume that its evils are impenetrable and that my friend is a judgment that can only be given by God to individual believers to their inner man as they commune with Him.

    The body is so diverse. The blood cell will calmly flow to every area of the body, bring oxygen and remove carbon dioxide even in intense situations. The nervous system is different in function, the body does not even know of its existence (how old were you when you realized what a sciatic nerve is) until a negative situation arises. When the nervous system warns the body other system become active. The hand may swat at the mosquito or remove that splinter. The mouth make ask the spouse to itch the back, etc, etc,.

    You laid the challenge down and look at the results. You have caused a great divide among immature blood cells and immature nerve cells. Why do I say immature? Because so many of them have said I agree with Andrew, or I don’t agree with Andrew as if Andrew’s opinion of them is of any worth. They have foolishly allowed your opinion to supersede what God would tell them personally to do in regard to any movement. For you to enter into a blanket judgment in regards to how one should react to the TEA Party is to supersede the Holy Spirit’s instruction to individual hearts. IT IS A FORM OF IDOLATRY!! You would even tell one which programs one should not watch in the media. Do you not think that this is a form of control that God is well able to make Himself in my heart!

    You call yourself John The Baptist TV. Be like a follower of John The Baptist. Confess your sin of needlessly causing schism in the body and your sin of speaking in place of the Holy Spirit as to what each individual member should do in regards to the TEA Party.

  300. Kay,

    God cannot act contrary to His Word. God’s ordination is already established: His Word. He has given us His law, which is the ONLY law that ever was or will be. Anyone acting on the basis of the authority of God’s law has God’s ordination behind him; everyone else is in danger of sin, if not actually sinning. Nowhere in His Word does God command us to obey any person (except “Children obey your parents”), but throughout His Word we are instructed to obey His law … and to follow all of those who follow His law to the extent that they do so. The whole idea that God ever ordained civil government with any authority apart from His law is a lie from the pit of hell. And the idea that God puts up leaders who we are to follow apart from His law is right there beside it. Now, God may place us under certain rulers as an act of His judgment, and He does instruct us how to act in fashion honoring to Him no matter in what situation we find ourselves, but that, too, does not equate to His ordination of civil government or civil rulers. And, no, that is not MY decision; it is wholly His.

    And don’t you dare blaspheme my Father’s holy name by attributing to Him the works of Satan, namely “chemotherapy” and other so-called “medical” techniques. God does not heal through the devices of the devil.

    But if the god that you serve is telling you that he is hand-picking the next Congress, it makes sense that you would believe that that god is worshiped by pharmacological offerings.

  301. WHAT IS TRUTH????
    After reading most of the material here, going to various websites suggested,watching at least part (I intend to finish) of the The Hidden Faith of The Founding Fathers 2010, visited Andrew’s Facebook, and other research both in the Bible and on Google, I can truly understand what is meant by, “What is truth??”. When I accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior in 1976 my pastor said to me, “Bob, remember ‘Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God – not by reading commentaries'”. If you haven’t noticed Wesley does not agree with Calvin does not agree with Matthew Henry, etc. – Methodists do not agree with Presbyterians do not agree with Pentecostals do not agree with Baptists, etc.

    I am sure you have all heard that if you get 5 Rabbis together you get 15 opinions – well it has become very apparent that when you get 10 Christians together you get 25 opinions.
    Bottom line – God IS in control – His Word IS infallible – His Spirit will reveal His TRUTH – Jesus is the TRUTH – man is basically evil – satan is the prince of this world AND disunity within the Body of Christ is still doing what satan intends.
    John 17:20-23
    20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one — 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

    Bottom line: Let us PRAY that the Lord’s will be done. We may not be in unity when it comes to interpretation of politics and religion but we CAN all seek Him who is the TRUTH. In the meantime remember:
    Ephesians 2:8-10
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    Sorry if I quoted the NIV (Not Inspired Version) rather than the KJV or the ASV.
    Pray for unity in the Body of Christ that the world might know…..

    Oh, I forgot to mention I am a retarded (retired) Bible Thumping pastor whose only desire is to lead “whosoever” to Christ that He might fill them with His Holy Spirit and they can know the truth and the truth will set them free!

    Thank you Andrew – whether we agree or not – at least a lot of people are thinking for a change.

    Gandhi said, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Do you agree? | Answerbag http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/358532#ixzz214uUHNrP

  302. jorgedelaselva,

    I find it interesting that you say God plants tares and wheat, then you reprimand Andrew for speaking. Whether you consider him tare or wheat; then, shouldn’t he speak, by your interpretation?

    You say God supernaturally makes the Body diverse, yet Andrew should not speak what is other than you like to believe.

    You say the challenge is healthy, but you deny God the right to use Andrew to lay down the challenge.

    You say Andrew exercises control, yet you FORBID him to speak. You say he speaks in place of the Holy Spirit, and that the TEA Party members hear from God for themselves. If only they would, we would not need this discussion. If only you would reprimand the TEA party members for the ungodly posters they carry “on high” at their meetings. It looks as though no one speaks to them about those because they agree with them. How about hearing from God there? That is an embarrassment to the Body. It gives the secular man JUST cause to rail against the Church. They see you do not follow the word when it becomes hard–when it feels like you are LOSING CONTROL.

    Jesus has built a good Name for Himself, and you threaten to destroy it. What did God do with Israel when they embarrassed His Name to the world by worshipping idols and disobeying His word? When they spoke evil of God because of the people He purposed to represent Him–they refuse to do what God has commanded they do? “Pray for your leaders.” When the world could not see any more light in God’s chosen people, then they became examples of what happens to God’s people who openly defy Him. They were punished, even overthrown. The history is in your Bible.

    There is still a remnant who agree with God–what ever His decision. Those who are in active communication with God see in the spirit realm. They are that nervous system you spoke about. They swat the mosquito, and they try and remove the splinter. The nerve that is dead will not feel the imposition of the enemy because they have decided to go dead and remain dead in feeling and hearing; and they will not seek to hear God again until after they have their ungodly desire in the world come to pass. They will then “repent” of their wicked desires and tactics and come back to life. That is the plan. But will it be that easy? Does God know what is in their hearts? Yes, because He just revealed it.

    What will God do with them? Well, they have heard that God will forgive, because He is a forgiving God–and of course, that we are under grace. Interesting. We will see.

  303. History repeats!The things that have been are the things that shall be there is no new thing under the sun.
    America has been on the decline for a long and so has the church.
    America is modern day Babylon and is about to turn on the Christians.
    This is God’s way of bringing us to our cross and a total commitment to Him.
    We Christians and Jews are going to witness and receive unparalleled persecution and America is going to be at the head of it.
    There is coming I believe,mandates emerging out of the U.N. and the U.R. Guidelines and perimeters for all religions to abide by.This is their vision of how to have peace.First we will have a limited war to be the catalyst .Most all wars are caused by religions.Organized religions will agree to these guide lines.The attention will then be focused on God’s true believers who can not submit to the demands of the U.N. surrogate of the U.S.This is similar to the situation Daniel found himself in in Babylon.True believers will not bow to the music.
    Toward the end of this agreement initiated by the U.S and U.N. things will be so bad for the Christians that when Russia(part of the modern day Medo Persian bear) invades America they will be viewed as heroes ,deliverers. This is what I see ,what say the prophets?
    God Bless

  304. IS AMERICA A GREAT NATION, WHY AND HOW?

    Andrew says:

    “America is indeed a great nation. And it is GOD and CHRISTIANITY that made it great – not the Constitution. It is REVIVALS and AWAKENINGS that kept it great – not Politics.
    Now that America is losing these things, she is losing everything.”

    Revivals and awakenings make Christian hearts great, but how do they make a nation great?

    The only way is if changed hearts influence the nation to make that nation great? How can hearts influence a nation?

    They can help write the constitution, influence politics, speak out against slavery, and refuse to pass by on other side like their religious brothers.

    peace,
    Simon

  305. Rick-Stanwood Jul 19th 2012

    In prayer, I got-“…don’t tell them to stop.” One of you prophets want to interpret
    this word?

  306. jorgedelaselva Jul 19th 2012

    Kay, read the parable of the Wheat and Tares, Jesus states who planted the Tares. I did not. I did not forbid Andrew to speak as you imply. I think this is his blog, is it not? I did reprimand him for assuming that he speaks for God in deciding whether or not it is spiritual for any individual to follow TEA Party ideals. Some people may want a balance of information when they make decisions regarding their vote.

    The new covenant is all about me going to the Temple in my redeemed heart and conversing with Him and balancing my impressions with the written Word. The old covenant was about 70 elders who had the Spirit, and they distributed it, man’s heart was a filthy unfit habitation that was waiting for a final blood-cleansing. The Parable of the Ten Virgins demonstrates this.

    Why would I allow Andrew to set himself up as the decision maker on my behalf. If he were simply state his opinion and say “this is what God is saying to me about the TEA Party, I realize that as part of the Body, He may be speaking something different to you,” then I could receive his words as loving instead of pompous and judgmental.

  307. jorgedelaselva Jul 19th 2012

    Les, you wrote, “America is modern day Babylon and is about to turn on the Christians.”

    In the past Israel and Judah were called to repent and they did not. Nineveh was called to repent and they did, hallelujah. America is being called to repent and her fate is still in the balance. We are not locked in to following anyone’s past history. Please do not try discourage those who would believe that we can return to Him. That my friend is His desire as well

  308. Ejimanze Jul 19th 2012

    How should Christians engage with the politics of the land? Some wonder and ask. I will share with you what the Lord revealed to me and which has been working wonders for me. It is based on these two Scripture promises – ‘The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much’ , and, ‘Behold I give you power to thread upon serpents and scorpions, and power over all the powers of the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you!’
    Any child of God who believes these promises, all you need to do is listen intently for the Father’s voice, lean on Jesus’ breast to hear His heartbeat concerning any matter – then issue a decree in the name of the great King, Jesus! It’s that simple.
    I was engaged me in a spiritual battle related to the coming of the Lord in August 2008 when the American elections intruded into fray. The election had something to do with the coming of He whose right it is to rule and judge the Earth – Jesus Christ. I saw the divine pendulum swung in favor of Obama. The watchers and the holy ones issued the decree for his election, and the rest is history. And this was done from some three continents away! And the watchers will yet decide who presides in the White House come the next election. They have and will issue and execute the decree from the divine court, that the inhabitants of the earth might know that the Most High ruleth in the affairs of men. Matters not what political activist group – tea party, coffee party, left of centre, centre right, conservative, liberal, republican, democratic… anyone is passionately supporting.

    Men and brethren, the most High is looking for Elijahs in this hour who can call the shots, no matter who is sitting in the White House or in Aso Rock. If you take the Elijah course, or the Joseph curriculum, you will be given the Elijah mantle and the Joseph coat of many colours (rainbow anointing) to rule the nations with a rod of iron. Any other political engagement by Christians in the government of this age that has expired is bodily exercise that availeth little.

  309. Thank you Lord for all these enlightening posts! I’ve been saved since I was 10 years old. I’m 80 this year. The reason I’ve been so retarded in my Christian growth is because of Me! I am a naturally strong willed, strong ‘believing’ person’. And a strong willed, strong passionate believer has held me captive for so long. When I gave up my ‘way’ to help God, He has been able to help me grow and know His way. No one, but no one can truly know the Truth until you surrender All. Now I’m on the way of serving Him and Him alone, Halelujah!!

  310. Rick-Stanwood Jul 19th 2012

    Sovereignty of God, that’s what’s missing here. Jesus said.”Without me you can do nothing”

  311. Teshuva Jul 19th 2012

    Thank You Father for the 80 year olds like Joan W, who have survived the wine press and threshing floors of experience and are still here to share their experiences, as their husks have been removed and the kernel is exposed.
    Please give her continued grace to share.

  312. Rick-Stanwood Jul 19th 2012

    If God used a donkey to speak to a prophet, what do you think his next move is?

  313. Might you all consider that God cares not at all who sits in the White House or in Congress? Think about it: 200 years ago, even average Americans were relatively unaffected by whatever may have happened in Washington. For only about the past 100 years, though, we’ve bought into the idea that the government is the important thing, when it’s not. God cares far more about what’s in each of our hearts and how we relate to our Christian neighbors (THAT’s the local church) than about who may think he is controlling the reins of money and power.

  314. Teshuva Jul 19th 2012

    The prophet was striking the donkey. If you were a donkey would you not bray too?
    2 Peter 2:16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey–a beast without speech–who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness/Pride.

  315. Ben,

    If we disagree about chemotherapy, then so be it. While Chaplain in a cancer ward I witnessed that people beat cancer with prayer, with chemotherapy, and other modern medical techniques. It is also true, as you say, that chemotherapy weakened a few patients to a worse state, who were already dying of cancer.

    There are preventative as well as restorative medical technologies for many different ailments which can be accessed at medical facilities. God provided the revelation and knowledge for ALL the technology, which I believe is meant to be accessible to ALL in a rich nation. So, we may disagree.

    Scripture tells us that the nations of the world were populated, and their boundaries were fixed in consideration of the needs of children of Israel (Deut 32:8; Acts 17:26). (For further study see Acts 17:26-27; Deut 2:5-9; Gen 10:5.

    What this means is that God designed the tests His people will encounter in the world to fit His people’s level of spiritual growth. “God will not put more on us than we can bear.” (He is the Potter.) The goings on in the nations of the world, the politics, the financials, the wars and etc. are purposefully and definitively planned, situation-by-circumstance to bring forth the sons of God. This can only be done by a God Who knew the end from the beginning. For example, when Israel encountered a larger, or a smaller number of the enemy, it was because God monitors the secular world to fit the size and nature of the test His people need for management of their spiritual growth at that appointed time. He does the same for us. If you believe God sits by and watches the world go on, uncontrolled; if that is your theology, we must disagree.

    Here is an excerpt from my article on God’s Sovereignty:

    “…if there is one molecule in this universe running around loose outside the scope or the sphere of God’s divine control and authority and power, then that single maverick molecule may be the grain of sand that changes the entire course of human history, that blocks God from keeping the promises he has made to his people?” It may be that one maverick molecule that will prevent Christ from the consummation of his kingdom. For if there is one maverick molecule, it would mean that God is not sovereign. If God is not sovereign, then God is not God. If there is any element of the universe that is outside of his authority, then he no longer is God over all. …Sovereignty is a natural attribute of the Creator. God owns what he makes, and he rules what he owns.” —–RC Sproul

    ‘Sovereignty is defined (by the Online Freedom Dictionary) as “complete and supreme power over a territory, with freedom from external control.” God’s sovereignty is implied in Bible text from Genesis through Revelation. God created the heaven and the earth and all contained within them in six days. The Lord God of Israel is one Lord (Deut 6:4;). He is to be loved with all the heart, strength and mind. There is one God, Who is above all, a Likeness separate from the human individual, with personality to be loved. He is omnipotent, and He reigns completely (Rev 19:6); He is absolutely and universally sovereign and almighty.

    In a kingdom, all residents are subject to the King. The King is sovereign in his realm of influence. HE appoints time and seasons. HE names and appoints officials and enforcers. HE commissions authority to appointees beneath him. HE bestows power to his appointees to carry out the assignments of the positions HE appoints. HE judges and sanctions all under HIS realm of authority. “The earth is THE LORD’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and all they that dwell therein. For HE hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods” (Psalm 24:1). Therefore all alive, all dead, all that exists, God created. All things fall under HIS sovereign power and authority.

    There is the idea that God is interested to be active in the human destination, as HE has a plan in mind. HIS divine interference is called “Providence” by some. Even the world agrees that to be provident, power must be exercised with pure, moral perfection, to bring about a good end for some or all. Providence must be prudent, careful, and show discretion and foresight. Many different theories exist concerning the degree to which God limits and exercises His divine providence over the affairs and happenings of the universe, since having created it. Some contend God affects human history, even human choice, to achieve His desired end, that He choreographed all from the very beginning. Some say God limits His power to give man responsibility for his own salvation, that this is justice. Some contend that sovereignty not exercised ceases to be sovereignty.’

    The idea that God does not involve HimSelf in the affairs of the world is more a Process Theology—New Thought (in my estimation). God’s universe is HIS. HE planned it. HE created it. HE will closely and absolutely monitor its progress.

    . . . There are examples of many different patterns of God’s judgments that give no sure rationale; some individuals are treated differently in what seems the same outward appearance. God gives power to get wealth. He delegates power to conquer to either His people or His people’s enemies, as HE decides. The people have difficulty figuring what God will or will not do. HE is sovereign. HIS judgments are not predictable. Though man only sees what is visible to the natural eye, GOD knows the intents of the individual’s heart (1 Sam 16:7). God considers each heart and what it needs next to bring forth His desired end—the new creatures, the sons of God the world groans to see manifest, and those HE will save to survive to the next world (Ps 24:3-4; Rom 8:19).

    The entire creation cooperates, as jorgedelaselva suggested, those which mean to cooperate and those who resist—all cooperate, they labor to bring forth the sons of God. The sons do not know now what they shall be (Romans 8:19-22; 1 John 3:2).It is beyond their understanding.

    Labor, the painful process, sometimes results in doubts of the ones suffering, and questions for the Maker as to why so painful a process. Why so indiscernible a plan? The sons HE has in process learn to trust God as they understand–it is but a process to bring forth the excellency of HIS plan, and them in it.

    God is good and His judgments are just, if one could know as He knows. He deals with the hearts of each of His children personally. We cannot fully understand now why God exercises His sovereignty in the way He chooses in each circumstance, but we learn to trust Him. Everyone one who knows God personally knows HE is merciful and just. Unfortunately, strangers on the outside of His grace, those destined for perdition, will never see nor understand, but will remain convinced He is unjust (Dan 12:10). All will, in the end, confess He is all-powerful and Mighty, Sovereign Lord.

    Point is, let us be cooperators by choice, rather than by defiance. Let cooperate with Jesus and bear the good fruit. What is the TEA Party doing? The Republicans? The Democrats? The rest of them? They are all numbered for God’s plan. Are they cooperating with God’s sovereign plan only by defying it? There is no good reward for the defiant, though they cooperate. We should step outside the entanglement of their realm and into the Kingdom of Christ. Be at peace with God’s plan and forget about nationality wrangling on this earth. Be compassionate to the poor-genuinely. Love your neighbor. It is the only true way to live in The Light.

  316. Right on Teshuva! And it took two major operations to open my eyes and heart. I lost my right kidney to cancer, and a mean colon-rectal cancer operation to start my real love of God to unfold. That was 10 years ago. That’s how stubborn I was to be ‘helpful unto His cause’…Oh, I was so right I knew. I just couldn’t convince God though. When we learn to listen, like I did while laying flat on my back, His Truth and Love took on new directions, all to the Glory of God. He is all Goodness, Truth and Love. The question we all might ask? Are you really-really sure you know you are right in God’s ways? He says He’s much higher and Perfect than piddling man, even His Loved Ones, us.

  317. Martin Jul 20th 2012

    Joan W you’re a star!

    You’ve been born again twenty five years longer than I, but we’ve fought, or in my case, am still fighting, the same battles.

    I’m very choosy indeed who’s words I heed, but if you lived nearer me, I’d sit at your feet and hear you, but so willingly.

    In my country wisdom gained over so many years is not valued anymore; indeed, it is thought of no account by the young. I see that in our own grand children.

  318. Teshuva Jul 20th 2012

    Joan W.
    I have to say that I get a joy reading what you share.
    I just love to hear of the major operations of the Great Physician!
    He gave you sight, and did open heart surgery on you, and took both your kidneys, since they represent the will of man, and now His will has become yours, opening up your bowels of love and compassion, in new directions.
    Indeed He is all Goodness, truth and Love.
    Thank you for just BEing.

  319. Teshuva Jul 20th 2012

    Martin,
    I learned the hard way about eating swine/others words and serving that dung to the King.
    I too love to learn from her. I hope her sharing causes His quiver to be full of children!

  320. a farmer Jul 20th 2012

    Jesus did not pray to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. (John17:15).

    We live and walk in the Spirit while we perform the menial tasks of life–a careful balance of BOTH the spiritual and physical realms. Hyper-spiritualism, aka some variation of gnosticism, or forms of hedonism on the other extreme, are degrees of irresponsibility in light of Jesus’ prayer. I am no less in the will of God when I milk my cow as when I worship. These earthly lessons are preparing us for the next life, which will include both a physical and a spiritual realm in one perfect Kingdom. Otherwise, why remain on this earth?

    We are all naive in this world. The Ancient Hebrew of naive is “perforated.” The naive suffer the same fate as the fool. But naivety is very tricky! What you are missing you know not, and what you have, you KNOW you have. That very knowing, especially when it’s great, keeps us from suspecting we are missing anything. And it’s precisely where we are missing that the enemy can deceive us. Great humility is required for a naive person to become wise. Often it takes being deceived to become humble.

    PBob above quoted Ghandi and then asked if we agree: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

    My response: If Ghandi liked Christ, why did he not accept Him? Why did Ghandi not become what he envisioned a Christian should be? Ghandi did not believe in the resurrection or the virgin birth, so what christ is he referring to?

    I think the general reaction of readers, though, is to think ill of “those unChristian Christians” from such a quote. Jesus said, “If you’re not for Me, you’re against Me.” Ghandi did not embrace Jesus as He is. Therefore, he had to justify it. What better way than castigating Christians? How easy it is to find fault!

    That is the way of the naive.

  321. A series of revealing and educational videos
    Should Christians be involved in politics & government? Dr. Wayne Grudem
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM3EmO5j9n4

    Couple more links with opinions and ideas as to how the church might be involved.
    http://www.ivotevalues.org/takeaction
    http://www.youtube.com/user/SpeakUpChurch

  322. Andrew – Looks like an opportunity for a new book. Just use all the comments here and provide your own opinions as well. Each has a view and most are relevant.However, the end of it all is PRAY – PRAY – PRAY
    “For evil to flourish, all that is needed is for good people to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

  323. Martin Jul 20th 2012

    Andrew, in the last four/five weeks you’ve been cursed and rebuked in Jesus Name, so guess you must be doing something right.

    What do you think?

  324. Well, said…”a farmer”

  325. Camilla Jul 20th 2012

    I thank Jesus for you Andrew. We are to walk in the Spirit and
    we are to be praying for God’s will to be done on earth as it is
    in heaven. Why do we get caught up in these fleshly distractions.
    Father God we need to expose this enemy of our souls. Lord you
    said in your Word that you would build your church and the gates
    of hell will not prevail. Lord I thank you for Andrew and the word
    of correction. I stand with a grateful heart and praise you for keeping us in your light and love. Amen and Amen!
    Bless you Andrew

  326. truthseeker2 asked:
    Tim (Onesimus). Do you have a link for your blog?
    ______________

    Hi Truthseeker2,
    just click on my name beside this post.

  327. jorgedelaselva, above you give some interesting dictionary definitions of liberty.

    Personally I prefer the liberty promised through Jesus that gives freedom from sin.

    I’m not interested in “the freedom to do as one pleases” which you claim is the central liberty given by God to the Israelites.

    It is the freedom to “do as one pleases” that always got Israel into trouble. They did as THEY pleased instead of doing what pleased God.

    Man doing what man pleases is the very foundation of sin.

  328. DeWayne Jul 20th 2012

    Concerning the ‘fruit produced’, regarding YouTube ‘Forefathers video’, it would take considerable time listing the evils done not only to the new citizen’s documented from the very beginning, certainly also to those of original or indigenous called the indian whose evil deed was to help those newly arrived having progressed into near starvation.

    So what can be seen (natual and spiritual) of how this nation has progressed. We have a ‘FIAT’ paper-dollar based upon debt that is astronomical, used in a perpetual war-economy in which over 50% of the nations income (on/off books) goes into this Empire of Dominion enterprise. After exporting much of American infrastructure to ‘strategic’ Third World locations, we now (import) over 80% of everything we consume… and this often from literal slavery for which some call (g)od’s Blessings… and in some cases are the cheap body parts the (g)ods also supply.

    I must repeat a statement by a wise and knowledgeable preacher from my past saying, some Christians are so heavenly minded, they are no earthly good. Andrew is correct, not endorsing a man within a video, but the concept and truth, that should be obvious to all Christians of discernment. Why isn’t it obvious to those that have eye’s (spiritual) to see… today it often seems the blind are leading the blind.

  329. L. ALEX SMITH said, “I find it interesting that the word “Laodicea” means: the rule of the laity, or the people;”

    In which universe is that the meaning of Laodicea?

    It means no such thing – either in the Greek or in English. It is simply a city name which has no known meaning, other than the city where lukewarm Christians were rebuked by Christ in Revelation 3.

    I would encourage Christians to stop inventing meanings to words in an effort to appear to have “Biblical” support for their aberrant “interpretations.” The truth does not need to have “facts” fabricated for it to stand. On the other hand, heresy and erroneous teachings have to fabricate “facts” in an attempt to make them seem legitimate.

    I realize there is a good possibility you are merely quoting someone else. If this is the case, I would encourage you to investigate your “facts” before you publish them as such. We can understand that an individual does not appreciate someone else publishing untruths about them personally and in some jurisdictions such a slanderer can be legally prosecuted for spreading such untruths. How much more should we be careful about not participating in gossip and untruths about the things of God.

    God bless,
    Wayne

  330. Ibelieve Jul 20th 2012

    Pastor Wayne
    I was wondering were this quote about Laodecia came from and was planning on looking it up.

    Thanks for clarifying what was quoted about this city.

    Lord Bless,
    Gary

  331. kathleen Jul 20th 2012

    After over 600 comments on both articles Andrew submitted this is STILL a tempest in a teapot…so little discernment regarding the subject and very little wisdom used in the way it was brought forth.
    God bless you all!

  332. jorgedelaselva Jul 20th 2012

    Come on Tim, don’t be so stubborn. The visual thesaurus directly connects liberty to freedom of choice which directly connects to freedom. Of course freedom in Christ is the most precious of all freedoms. The heart of love is that I have a choice to love. He says if I acknowledge Him in all His ways then He will give me something special. All the desires of my heart! Wow. Am I selfish in obtaining every desire or am I experiencing a transformed heart from exercising my free will properly. (This is definitely theory that I personally am still working out my salvation for.)

    Man doing what man pleases is the very foundation of LOVE.

  333. I found this quote but lost the details of the site and can’t vouch for its reliability:

    In Israeli, the name Laodicea means- just people. The name Laodicea orginated as an Israeli name. The name Laodicea is most often used as a girl name or female name.

    Israeli Name Meaning – just people

    Origin – Israel

    __________

    Maybe L Alex Smith confused this name with the word “Nicolaitan” which I have heard defined in a similar way to his definition of Laodicea.

  334. jorgedelaselva, if you want to base your faith on a thessaurus you have the liberty to do so.

    I’d rather rely on the bible to inform me on spiritual matters.

  335. DeWayne Jul 20th 2012

    Dr Wayne Grudem (YouTube Video) makes good sense encouraging people to be good citizen’s, contributing as we are gifted to this nation, and certainly the light and salt of the world is that teaching.

    There is however warning about being sent into the world, that we be as wise/shewd as the serpent/snake… paraphrased to know what Satan and his servants were up to (before) going to war perhaps inadequately prepared.

    I also appreciated he did not condition or imply we had to become singularly yoked to one political party or another to accomplish Gods good work as citizen’s.

    Some may have thought Wayne was saying leaders can do no wrong (in Office), however running for Office if anything would indicate (today) an independent stand is needed. Have you noticed that Dem/Gop ‘Party Platforms’ are no longer mentioned, and well they shouldn’t, in my past these were words were seldom accomplished and even attempted.

    It is only my opinion, but from all study so far, those in the upper hierarchy of (our) government appear for decades (if not centuries) have served other than ‘we the people’, and in this strong indication is that money talks louder that constituents.

  336. Laurie J Jul 20th 2012

    On the other hand, we cannot be any earthly good, unless we heavenly minded, (having the mind of Christ and being Spirit-led sons and daughters of God). Laurie J

  337. Very true Laurie J

  338. George Luther Jul 20th 2012

    Tim,

    Your made the comment

    “NO!
    The old testament deals with God’s relationship with ISRAEL. If you want to see OT relevance to God’s relationship with the USA (or other gentile countries) check out references to “the Nations”

    References to Israel are applicable to Israel they can not be plucked out of context at will and applied to any other nation of our choice.”

    Wow–the OT clearly lays the foundation for everyone’s need for salvation, including the gentile nations, and clearly prophesies Jesus coming to provide salvation for all. Your assertion that the OT only deals with God’s relationship with Israel shows a complete ignorance and understanding of the Bible. Have you even read the Bible through (not just a few select quotes that you looked up on your computer)?

    That’s why Andrew shut down your references about Israel–he was clearly trying to stop you from embarrassing yourself further.

  339. DeWayne Jul 20th 2012

    Teshuva…
    God does send us (out) into the world, and certainly this may be much like walking out into a cow pasture… carefully.

    I once heard that cow-manure would get rid of my freckles (a toe-head turing to red at the time), I didn’t use this (sage) advise… we both seem to have learned from this life in the world.

  340. DeWayne Jul 20th 2012

    Laurie J…
    In working out our salvation, you are correct that we need be ‘heavenly minded’, apparently regarding the need in renewing of our mind… from the worlds, to Gods wisdom and knowledge.

    I also agree it is Gods will and purpose that we need serve, and not our own… and in this my pride does seem to sneak a shot once and a while.

    At this point of 76-years an old male (stiff necked and opinionated), it still is an ache in my heart how badly the church/s (of my knowledge) have picked up so much false teaching and prophecy… in this usually I give long thought before speaking… most of the time.

  341. Tiffany Jul 20th 2012

    In agreement with @Camilla
    THANK YOU LORD!! Bless you Andrew!!

  342. Andrew Jul 20th 2012

    Can I ask that personal attacks be kept out of this discussion, please?

    Since this is a Christian website, is it possible to discuss this topic in a Christian way?

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  343. George Luther, YOU are the one in ignorance. That topic was not shut down for the reason you stated – it was an off-topic distraction from the subject of this thread. And I had tried to put an end to it before Andrew made his request.
    The off-topic aspect was only raised in the first place because of anti-semitic claims that had been made about the holocaust.

    As for my other comments to which you are referring, you are clearly putting an unintended spin on them. The intention and meaning of those comments was entirely clear and Andrew stated his agreement.

    I was saying that we can’t take God’s dealings, His promises and His prophecies relating specifcally to Israel and apply them directly to any other nation. If you want to read what is applicable to the NATION of America in the OT, refer to what it says about “the nations”.

    Misappropriation of scripture addressing Israel is one thing that has led to an American spiritual mythology around the “founding fathers”, the idolatry of “patriotism” and the idea that America had an extra-special relationship with God, as if America was God’s new chosen people.

    One thing I found amazing is how clear things become when you DO read the bible, the WHOLE bible, instead of reading select parts. When you DO read the bible and seek understanding from the Holy Spirit instead of relying far too much on the teachings of men. When you read what is actually written in the WHOLE bible without reinterpreting it to support a pre-existing, favoured doctrine and prejudice.

  344. DeWayne Jul 20th 2012

    Encouraging others to (simply) vote, without tongue in cheek, reminds me of a Congressional act common yet today, and was finally revealed some time ago evidenced on camera.

    Picture a politician in Congress (boldly) reciting his own good works, turing with pioty to the side, asking with surly revolt, “why aren’t the opposing colleagues of the other party defending themselves”, and what do you know, the cameral actually turns…. to an empty chamber.

    An empty chamber will vote for what?

  345. DeWayne Jul 20th 2012

    I need use a dictionary more often…

  346. There is a Dichotomy in the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that you need to be aware of within your own judgments. Below are some thoughts for your consideration.

    I AM the true vine, and My Father is the Husbandman.  Every branch in Me that bears not fruit He takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, He purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit. If a man abides not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15 verse 1 thru 2, and verse 6.)

    “You must be born again of God’s Spirit” is the absolute axiom for man to enter into eternal life within God. It is essential that Christian leadership establish this faithful understanding in all the churches, and that the hearts of God’s people know it is fulfilled only in a faith that is following Jesus Christ and none other. But even if God’s Salvation into new birth is understood in the Christian heart, then why is sin still mysteriously present within our being? Oh, you can be in a state of denial and say that it is impossible for sin to exist in one that is born again. But the conundrum is that the flesh of our being is not born again of the Spirit of God, but has its own will that is at enmity with God and the Spirit of His good Will. Now, if sin finds you out, as it will, then what do you do with your sin when you begin to see your-‘self’ wallowing in its gratifying pollution? When found out, sin will always seek to cover its naked self with self justifying responses that divert responsibility from the offender. With sin being in control of our self justifying flesh, we are tossed about and lost in the confusion. Oh, the good that I would do, but for the evil that is present!

    This old body of the natural man we live with, is a dichotomy of the good and the evil of self determining gratification. Self determination is rooted as one with the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil that is founded in the Garden of Eden, as told in the book of Genesis. Apart from the leading of God’s Spirit, individually or collectively, we are not capable of overcoming the evil root within our minds of self-idolatry that brings forth death and destruction. Even the good we attribute to ourselves, is centered in self judgment and twisted in deceptions from the same root that forms evil. Very simply, that root is one and the same perverted root, whether for good or for evil, for it comes from the same old Tree of Knowledge of self determination of what is good or evil from ones own Idolatrous self centered perspective. Even in the flesh of Christianity, your good is not necessarily my good, and your understanding of evil is not necessarily my understanding of evil. Hence the inevitable human judgmental consequences: if you do not believe in what I believe is true, then you are anathematized.

    Through out the centuries, the leaders of the churches have a history of being in complicity with the ‘good’ and the ‘evil’ derived from the Tree of Knowledge. In hind site, we have witnessed the good that the historical churches would judge to do for the sake of church doctrine, Bible interpretation, or even for the Gospel’s sake, for it was inevitably clarified with violence, even in the Name of God. Is this not the human rational, “Let us do evil that good would come of it”? Holy blunder, the end does not justify the means!

    With sin in the universe, evil perpetuates its self by justifying its self. It makes no difference whether it is Catholic or Protestant judgment; all segments of Christianity are exceedingly guilty. Historical Catholic Europe is guilty, but right in its own eyes with its religious witch hunts, conquests for land, Inquisitions with suppression of ethnic groups including genocide, infanticide, murder, broken treaties with blood shed, and the merchandising of Christianity. From its beginning origin in Europe and coming to America, Protestantism is guilty, but right in its own eyes with its conquests for land, genocide, religious witch hunts, the Civil War with suppression of ethnic groups, infanticide, murder, broken treaties with blood shed and the merchandising of Christianity. We are all right and justified within our own religious eyes, but not in the Eyes of the One Holy Infinite GOD Almighty. I counsel thee to buy of Me, gold tried in the fire that thou may be rich; and buy of Me, white raiment that thou may be clothed, so that the shame of thy nakedness does not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eye salve that thou may see. (Revelation 3 verse 18.)

    This root judgment of the flesh, born from the Tree of Knowledge, blinds all of us, bringing confusion, and obviously is still rampant within all churches, beginning with the clerics and ending with the people of the pews. Because of our individual sins and the generational sin’s of the churches, we all have great need for repentance. And with true repentance, we need to seek the application of the mitigating grace of the New Covenant Blood of Jesus Christ, so that through His Spirit of Holiness, we might receive needed humbling correction, and then afterwards be clothed in the unity of His Love. For, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.  (Revelation 3 verse 19.)

    Robert Glenn

  347. Laodicea – justice of the people,not much of a stretch to say rule of the people.
    http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/laodikeia.html
    According to Strong’s Greek concordance, Laodicea is a combination of two words, laos which it defines as “people” and dike, which is defined by Strong’s as “right”, “judgment”, “punish”, and “vengeance”.
    It would seem that universe was Greek

  348. Teshuva Jul 20th 2012

    jorgedelaselva,
    He will give us the desires of our heart.
    I always understood this to mean that He would give us His desires for our heart. Which were not my desires initially, but became mine when He offered me something far better than I thought that I had.
    His presence, there is nothing better than His presence.
    I did not get to do what I pleased after that, but I no longer wanted to either.

  349. Amen to your above post Robert Glenn.

    For many wars have been fought in the name of the ” God “of self righteousness.

  350. Barry Koh Jul 20th 2012

    In the heated debate on abortion and gay marriages and other issues , many Christians failed to grasp that our God is righteous and not rightwing.

  351. Traveler Jul 20th 2012

    Well this is my 2 cents on the subject.

    What we are really dealing with here is nationalism. Most posters here are yank and as a result they have strong ties to their country.

    However as Christians we are supposed to have renounced our worldly citizenship and joined up with Christs kingdom. Yes we are still in the world and have to abide by the laws of the countries we reside in but we are also Christs ambassadors here while we are here.

    The question here is “Have we allowed our national pride and heritages of our old lives to become our idols in our new lives.” Do we want God to bless America so that America can be great in the worlds eyes or do we want God to bless America so that it can be a testament to the glory of God before the rest of the world.

    Lets be honest, what is the real motive behind our reasoning here.

    A nation that conducts its affairs righteously receives Gods blessings and a nation that rejects God gets handed over to its sins. Looking at whats going on in Wall Street etc I would say the country is being destroyed by its own crookery, all God has to do is stand back and leave it to happen all on its own.

    You cannot legislate morals into a nation, it has to come from the people themselves. Many have been tempted by their own lusts and have allowed the government to grow to the point where it has become an unstoppable juggernaut hell bent on protecting the preferred sins of the masses, But not protecting the God given inspiration that the nation was founded on.

    Now yes there are those that are bravely taking a stand and trying to stop the tide but the battle is spiritual, not natural. At some point the national pride has to be placed aside and the power of Christ called upon to drive back the flood of satanism sweeping the nation. It is at that point that repentance starts to manifest in the actions of the people that God can respond to.

    For the American Christians to turn things around in their communities and by extension the country they grew up in, they first need to identify what demonic entities are at work here and start binding them and block their workings and isolating the workers of iniquity they are working through. This is a spiritual war, it only manifests in the physical because it has advanced so far. The country has fallen under a stronghold that is spreading world wide and has been for some time

  352. One of the worst and false figs to hide the nakedness of fallen men in the name of Christianity as of having God Life is they say the ” war like or those who support war , adultery, fornicators, slave masters etc” are still Born again it is just that they are only babes in Christ ” If the least in the kingdom of Christ is greater than the greatest Law observer , what a plain contradiction of CHRIST Kingdom and those that are in it even in the least inheritors. You cannot get Christ without inheriting a measure of his kingdom and to know those who did not get a measure of those kingdom is plainly written in the scriptures Galatian 5 talk a lot about it.
    .It is very simple does that commit such iniquity at there best form are just in the law not Christ Kingdom.It is so simple, they are not yet born again.

  353. Joe Moriarty Jul 20th 2012

    George Luther responded to part of my post concerning the Good Samaritan:

    George’s response “Dear Joe,

    You statement “Love takes action, it does not sit on the sidelines exercising in theological gymnastics. Nor does it look the other way when it sees evil at work” is well put.

    Jesus Christ bless you abundantly! ”

    I want to thank you for the blessing because that is what we need. While I don’t know the personalities involved in these discussions, or where they are from, it appears there are antagonists who just want to be right OVER others, and then there are some who seek to be right WITH one another.
    It appears that there is a lot of biting and devouring of one another at times, yet, I strongly believe in the truth of what Jesus has already established….we are one in Him.
    “…walk worthy of the vocation wherewith you are called. With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; ENDEAVORING TO KEEP THE UNITY OF THE SPIRIT IN THE BOND OF PEACE.” (Eph. 4:1-3)
    (sorry about the capitals, but I cannot underline). We are to seek Peace, and Right-ness with one another in the unity of the Spirit that has already been established in Christ. Endeavor to maintain it.
    May Jesus Christ bless you all abundantly…Joe

  354. jorgedelaselva Jul 20th 2012

    Teshuva
    ‘In those days there was no king in Israel, (but) every man did that which was right in his own eyes.” (Judges 17.6 & 21.25) I use to think that these passages described a selfish situation in Israel, but now I have come to the conclusion that the freedom that is described here is the basis for true love. I have the freedom to make choices in life. If I choose that the right thing to do in my eyes is to follow hard after Jesus, what will happen? My stony heart will be made a new heart of flesh. That new heart has perfect desires. At that point in my relationship with him two wonderful verses apply well. ‘In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.’ (Prov. 3.6) ‘Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.’ (Ps. 37.4)

    It is interesting that God preferred this relationship with the nation Israel rather than a king. Why do suppose that was?