VIDEO – “Collapse of US Family Net Worth” – COMMENTS?


Sadly, as we have been saying for some time, this is a long “DEPRESSION”, not just a brief ‘recession’. This week a Citibank report came out showing the US economy was in such poor shape that 23% of small business owners had gone “at least a year” without pay. (That amounts to 6.1 million business owners). And now the news from the US Fed that between 2007-2010, US families lost almost 40% of their net worth. As the analyst says on the video below, history will look at this period as something much greater than just the crisis of 2008. We believe there is a great spiritual “purging” taking place in the West – which will take YEARS. While sad and painful, we truly hope this “purging” will bring down the materialism and selfishness that have reigned for too long. Here is the video-

Posted in TV & Videos by Andrew on June 13th, 2012 at 5:53 am.


136 Replies

  1. Robert Jun 13th 2012

    All that debt with China and now we’re saber rattling with them.

  2. dagazz Jun 13th 2012

    I have been looking into the response by sectors of the church in America. Rather than facing rampant consumerism and materialism they are blaming the communists and the Muslim/ Arab world for the financial collapse. I suppose it is easier to blame them [or the greedy banking system and poor financial regulations] rather than look at the over indulgent lifestyle that is the american dream.

    My heart goes out to those who are struggling through no fault of their own – perhaps the church can use this opportunity to preach the true gospel and to help those who need food and shelter. As the saying goes…it was the greatest of times and the worst of times. God bless America at this difficult time.

  3. Michael Jun 13th 2012

    I think the financial woes of the present time have been planned by the evil elite that are seeking to form the one world beast government.Perhapes the mark of the beast is not far away.I also believe God is using these times to shake mankind to repentance.David Wilkerson warned us years ago that this would happen.Part of the reason for the family collapse is because of widespread immorality in the church.There are as many if not more divorces in the church as in the world.Faithfullness in marriage is almost a thing of the past sad to say.God promisses to look after His own,those who love Him and serve Him totally.Jesus said “when you see all these things begin to happen look up for our redemption draws near.In Luke 21:36 Jesus said”Be always on the watch,and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen,and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man”.I believe He is about to come back for us John 14:1-3.

  4. Ibelieve Jun 13th 2012

    Once America collapses, all the westernized countries in the world will fall like dominoes.

    I believe all of this is happening for a number of reasons, the main one being that everyone will accept a one world government. A leader with all the answers for the worlds woes.

  5. dagazz Jun 13th 2012

    Asa I said, it is easier to blame the devil – a conspiracy – or anything else that doesn’t call on us to repent, change or turn back to God. I don’t believe that the genuine work of God upon this earth can be so easily attacked and overcome by such things…there has to be a turning away from God that makes a nation vulnerable. Our vulnerability is that Western Society is humanistic and not built on kingdom principles; therefore it will crumble.

    Blame the anti-christ all you like, but we are the ones who have built our societies on sinking sand and extolled the virtues of greed and idolized the rich. If it is the work of evil, it will only be able to prosper because we opened the door for it.

  6. kelling Jun 13th 2012

    Something is up for Fall, Homeland Security ordered 400 million rounds of 40cal hallow points along with 200 million rounds of 223, for what? A Def Com 1 was ran when Obama was in Co. last March in the Gov. city under the Co. Airport, read about the paintings that are in the Co. airport as I have seen them. Loyds of London has pulled it’s money from European banks as the World Bank continues to print more money to flood the markets as the Euro falls. Lots and lots more going on. Yet the word says our Salvation nears in Yashua Messiah! We will have to lift our our hands and call out to our Redeemer we our safe in him he knows his sheep! Please be in prayer for your loved ones and those that do not know Yashua, time may be short and there are few workers in the field so lets get busy! Shalom in Yashua.

  7. jay marion Jun 13th 2012

    As much as my wife and I pray for a true spiritual awakening the polls and our observances over the last 65 years have shown us that Americans, by and large, do not take the teachings of Christ Jesus seriously and have little or no desire to apply them to their lives and often resenting anyone who does try to “awaken” them spiritually. It will take a great deal of persecution to first cull out the game-players and then see what/who is left for God to work with in re-establishing His church in this country. Church has become so PC that for the most part it is irrelevant to everyday living. Jokes from the pulpit are more acceptable than anointed messages from the Holy Spirit. In one generation we have seen the church turn into a non-entity and the word of God become of no importance in the lives of the people in this country. We weep for our children and grandchildren and what they are facing in the future, but our time here is short and we are going home to a better place.

  8. Well, I can guarantee that in the period 2007-2010 our net worth went down by at least 40%, and since then even more. We have seen a shortfall of at least €1,000 every month for our ministry (and ourselves) and we just can’t make it up from reserves any more. Churches that have promissed to give just don’t anymore, they are too busy upkeeping thei buildings and programs

  9. As a Christian living in the UK I have watched this disaster in Europe forming, as indeed was always inevitable. The concept of the European currency was flawed from the very beginning, but what most people still miss is the fact that most EU leaders are enslaved by the doctrine of Federalism, and if they now let go of the Euro currency it’s the first sign of failure. Failure is NOT AN OPTION amongst these people. With the EU nations massively in debt, unable to dig themselves out despite billions of money in bailouts, the entire world’s economy shaking as a result, confidence can only be restored by direct and bold action which would inevitably involve setting Greece and other struggling nations free from the stranglehold of the Euro. This they will not do, so we have today a situation where they sit on their hands while the world dips deeper into a Great Depression. It’s not America falling that will be the first domino, it’s Europe, and Germany is now emerging (again) as the fly in the ointment. What we are witnessing today is almost identical to the buildup to the first world war. Watch this space!!

  10. Kathleen in WA State Jun 13th 2012

    Sadly, denial is alive & well in America.

    Ad nauseum our talking heads (aka news commentators) put this spin or that on the economy, all the while unemployment rates remain high, job losses continue (my own son – father of five – was layed off last week), the housing market is anemic, & our currency relegated to the back of the bus (no longer “A” rated).

    I know of no one – zilch, nada – that believes we’re headed for something worse. Optimism? Maybe. More than likely it’s the Ostrich-Syndrome.

    The shaking continues.

  11. Isn’t it clear???? The Word says that in the last days, many shall fall away. The word does not speak about the economies of nations getting better except in the context of a few years b 4 the anti christ proclaims himself as God.His strong promises and plans for worldwide peace and economic prosperity that he makes, are 2 of the things that get him elected to governing a worldwide economic power. This happens right before Christians are persecuted and killed on account of our testimony for the Lord and not taking the number whereby all buying, selling and trading are done. Maybe there will be some great worldwide awakening before this but I do not scripturally see justification for this type of belief, especially when the bible speaks about a great falling away, and the abounding of iniquity so that the love of many turns cold. I do not believe Christ is speaking on the love that the world gives which is circumstantial at best. No, we would expect this type of love to grow cold, so why would he warn the early disciples and us about a worldly love turning cold? He is talking about those within the body of Christ.
    The stage is becoming set, family..and I don’t think it is becoming set for a world wide revival, but for worldwide (the financial ones, anyway) dominion by the anti christ and his prophet.

  12. marc wildman Jun 13th 2012

    America is still in denial. I have lived here for 59 years, and it’s a naive case of Americans thinking they are only watching some ‘Reality’ TV show! They will wake up tomorrow and everything will be fine. With the upper classes it’s still business as usual, their maxed out on credit cards, and their lifestyles and attitudes continue the same.

    I am not sure it won’t take a few more natural disasters and the wells completely drying up, maybe a few large bank foreclosures would get the ball rolling? I am sorry, but my country ’tis’ of thee has been on a downward spiral for many, many years. Churches have gone into foreclosure and Pastor/ministry scandals are at an all time high.

    It all stems from the dismissal of God in our schools, a decline in morality/ethics, the inordinate affection with materialism and the disregard for human life. Not to mention wayward Christianity and the emergence or a new ‘spin’ on the gospel every other day! God is about harvesting souls, and He wishes none should perish. He has His work cut out for him over here!!


  13. I live in North Carolina, in an area that is dramatically affected by the downturn of the economy. The supermarket nearby survives off food stamps! Nine out of every ten customers buy their food through food stamps! – only ONE in TEN pays cash – or credit. There IS little or NO work here at all. Drugs and alcohol rule because the people have no hope.

    I urge ANY person who reads this to buy or borrow – READ a book that has shaken me like no other prophetic writing in recent years. It is called “The Harbinger” by Jonathan Kahn, and is available at Amazon for about $9. This book reveals the fulfillment, in the most minute detail to the NTH degree, of a prophesy in Isaiah that is mind-boggling, and begins with the collapse of the World Trade Centers. It is a WARNING – a “Harbinger” to this country to turn back to God. ONLY God could have brought about the events, people, and words spoken that were fulfilled so incredibly by 9/11 and the collapse of the US economy. Once again, I URGE ALL Christians and NON -Christians to read this book. Every American should. We are truly living on borrowed time, and by God’s immense and unfathomable GRACE.

    When I read on the news yesterday of a man in Florida EATING another man’s face in a main street – cannibalizing a LIVE 65yo man in a PUBLIC place, I was SO horrified at implications of this demonic display I wondered how BAD do we have to get before we SEE how far we have gotten off the beaten track! This man’s face was unrecognizable and will have to be rebuilt – not to mention His mind, his soul and spirit. The attacker was shot dead. This is a nation with a sick soul. 53% of the population now believe that it is OK for homosexuals to “marry”…. Are we seeing God’s judgement?……I believe so. But it is HIS desire that ALL should live, and how many are there out there who hear His call, before it is too late and the Ark door is closed?

  14. I just wanted to say one more thing (one, out of thousands of reports we could all refer to…) but while the world staggers, the economy collapses, Syria descends into civil war, thousands flee violence around the world – in London you can pay £12 to go to an Art Exhibition where everything is invisible. Yes, it’s not a joke. Empty plinths, blank canvases, rooms full of nothing — if it wasn’t so sad I’d laugh. – and there they all are, the smart and the comfortable, wandering round the emptiness and kidding themselves they are getting value for money. Isn’t this a sick reminder of how blind mankind is?

  15. Val sm Jun 13th 2012

    I live in a town in northern BC Canada. Canada is said to be prospering…..I know many people who are struggling. Our pulp mill is closing, and huge numbers of homes are for sale and/or rent..I have friends who have lost everything, and some have only lost much of their net worth.

    We have a couple of prayer meetings each week. Twenty years ago twenty five men came out regularly to pray, now it’s three men. The other prayer meeting is five to seven people…..everyone else is “too busy”…….I don’t understand how people can stay asleep under the present shaking… sign of revival yet…..

  16. It is amazing what we can live without. We have been brainwashed to think we need a lot of things to prove our self-worth, even Christians. I have been there. But Praise God He will finish the good work He began in us.

    I am not going to get angry and point fingers. But I do pray that we will, who are Christians, Seek First The Kingdom Of God and His Righteousness……We can only be changed in our thinking, our expectations, wants and desires as we draw close the Lord. The closer we get to the Lord in prayer & reading and surrendering our will to His, can we change and the things of His Kingdom will become our priority not the things and desires of this world.

    I am tasting a more surrendered life than ever before and I know it will continue as I experience that giving up of my will & desires to allow His will, His desires, His plan for my life to be a priority and to go forth. It is so exciting to finally allow the Lord to be the LORD of my life. Of course, not totally arrived but am growing. Taste and see that the Lord is good.

    The two Scriptures the Lord has given me is to wait upon Him and my strength will be renewed. I asked how will it be renewed Lord, and He said, I will see Him do mighty things I have not thought of and I will know without doubt that it was Him and my faith will be greatly strengthened. The other Scripture is to continue to Seek Him with all my heart and His Kingdom and all these things will be added unto me. What things I asked? His perfect will and plan for my life. I said all glory to Your Name my Lord. Your grace is sufficient for me while I wait.

    He has taught me to live with very little right now. As I look at the persecuted Church I learn that with very little I am extremely well off. I see that contentment with godliness is great gain. The persecuted Church are my new mentor’s, my teachers. I sit at their feet and learn from them. Simply, deeply in love with Jesus and no worries about comfort. Their eyes and hearts are on Jesus and a heart to see the ones doing the persecution saved, delivered and filled with the Holy Spirit. Praise God He has brought the awareness of these precious Brothers and Sisters to us that we may learn and pray for them and for ourselves to have a deeper surrendered relationship with our Lord. To Him be all the glory.

  17. In His Glory Jun 13th 2012

    In our geographical location – Southern Cal – It looks to me like people are making adjustments. The net worth of our family has certainly gone down w/everyone else. It hasn’t been easy, or fun, but I see Christian families having to live more on faith that God has a plan & will provide month to month than relying on their “own” abilities to provide an over abundant means of material support. Spiritually, God is working on maturing His Body as they struggle w/economic hardships & press into Him for direction.

    As far as the world goes ~ adjustments are being made because there is no other choice & hopefully some will eventually seek God because of it. They are still stubborn though I would have to say. People are bartering more & doing w/less “stuff”. Food & Gas costs have priority over the latest gadgets. People in the higher economic levels – some are fighting w/all their might & in distress that they may have to cut back on their “lifestyles” (How would their peers view them? as failures?) & others are doing just fine economically & living like they always have.

    Meanwhile Satan is looking @ who he can take down w/the thoughts of complete hopelessness by injecting the thoughts (fiery darts) of suicide.

    And on top of all this ~ ultimately I do believe we are @ the crossroads of the New World Order – global economic power that the Anti-Christ will eventually take over. The False Prophet will pop in & officially organize the global false religious order @ some point as well.

    Lots of layers of things are all going on @ once. God is getting some people’s attention though the natural disasters, weird weather, freak animal deaths, etc…. that’s going on @ the same time as the economic turmoil. I would say we’ve hit the birth pangs for sure. This Christian site keeps up on the daily pulse of these things if interested:


  19. In His Glory Jun 13th 2012

    Sheri, The Lord turned my eyes to the persecuted Church, Orphans, poor body of Believers I would say just about the time this all began. He gave me a heart for them B4 I was aware of how this economic situation would unfold. Now that I look back it was interesting timing! You find out that there is a whole lot more joy in blessing them in the name of Christ in than accumulating more junk manufactured overseas that just takes up space & we really don’t need in the 1st place. I know a lot of people who are making a consorted effort to simplify their household & get rid of the excess collected over the years of a prosperous economy. I see God active in Christians who are submitted to Him ~ blessing them spiritually & teaching them where true joy is found. His grace & mercy are astounding! Every time I think about how He works individually in our lives for our good & His glory I’m amazed all over again.

    The battle doesn’t end though ~ the flesh is always there to try & dull our spiritual senses & rob us of the joy we have walking in The Spirit of The Living God.

  20. I live in Canada,10 min from the US border, and went down to the US last week. I hadn’t been down since before Christmas and this is what greeted me – the Canadian border is the same as always, a small building and and a parking area where they can pull you over if they need to check your vehicle. (we’re not close to any big cities but are open 24 hrs.)

    The US, however, has built a huge new building surrounded by an area of chain link fence with barbed wire on top. Most significant to me was the fact that now they not only can stop you coming in BUT ALSO GOING OUT. The reality of a fortress mentality (by the government anyway) was very graphic. I’d take a picture but I’m afraid of how they would react, it’s already such a hassle going both ways. The Americans are not regularly stopping people leaving the country (one friend mentioned seeing someone stopped) but the set up is all there for it.

    The Canadians of course are working us over because so many people are going down to shop for much cheaper food/goods/gas in the US and they want to collect duty/tax so as to discourage that.

  21. Unfortunately, most people here in the US get their information from the left wing media, who’s battle cry every day is “peace and safety! don’t worry! This is only temporary! Live it up, spend spend spend!” Well, I can tell you that my finances are NOT improved, nor do I feel that all is well. If my hope were in this world, I would be devestated. I get the Good News every day-I see what the Lord says about the future and put my trust in Him. And I think that having some financial difficulty-some of us more than others-isn’t such a bad thing! Who do we put our trust in-our boss our or Lord? Everything belongs to Him-and that’s where I need to go for my needs.

  22. kathleen Jun 14th 2012

    I believe what happened to my husband and I beginning in 2007 to present is a microcosm of what is happening nationally. We own a landscaping business in a small touristy town. Our clients are the (much maligned) top 1 percent. Many are hating the rich at present but I say God bless them, because God uses them to bless us. In 2007 we were in great shape. We had had years of prospering and our entire business was paid off. If we bought something we paid for it. But our priorities left much to be desired.

    In 2007 we went into a business parnership with my husbands brother and started a new business. Very bad move. Our credit was used to start this business. We protected ourselves with contracts etc but we had no idea what was in store. Very soon we began having to make payments for our partners who couldn’t make their share. In May 2008, our business partner skipped town and moved to Alaska. We had no idea he was planning this. The economy crashed and we were left holding the bag on everything. We struggled for over a year…trying our hardest, cutting to the bare bone but in the end we saw the bank making moves and we started bankruptcy proceedures to try and salvage something. In 2009 almost exactly a year after our business partner left us an IRS agent walked into our office and started a federal Audit. So, our business was on life support, the economy crashed, few houses were being built,we were going through a bankruptcy and the feds started an audit. A trifecta strangulation of sorts. Was this a “wake-up call” you bet it was. My husband and I in the midst of battling all this really had to examine our lives. What was important.(I could say so much but don’t want this to go too long) God was purging us and I thank Him for it. Spiritually, emotionally, mentally I checked out, so to speak, for a time. I could only handle so much and much of that was on my knees. God is so faithful. So many times I felt like Job must have felt. Everyday some new battle sprang up. It was relentless. I learned more about what faith is, what joy is and what Jesus Christ believes is important and how far I was from His mind. I went into a time of true and deep repentance. I felt like a total failure and the Lord showed me that the worlds idea of failure and His are diametrically opposed. I learned that His Kingdom is the opposite in almost every respect to this world we live in, in all quarters including the church. I learned I have to live here but I don’t belong here. I learned to hide in the secret place of the Most High. The key is to hide there all the time not just when you think you need to. Total surrender.

    After the audit was completed it turns out that the IRS owed us money. Imagine that. After the bankruptcy we were able to salvage a small portion of our original landscaping business to at least carry on (only because prior to the economic collapse everything was paid for:no debt) we lost everything else. Currently, my husband is working on the largest landscaping job in his career to date. But our priorites are much different. We operate with little debt. We used to go buy new equipment for our business now we repair what we have and make do. We have fewer employees and work very hard.
    So what we went through, I believe, is a sort of microcosm of what is happening in the bigger picture. Some people are in denial, some are repenting, some are moving to a barren wilderness in hopes of escaping what is happening and what is to come.

    But some of us are forced (by the Lord) to deal with ourselves, shaken to our core, everything stripped and bared to His inspection. If you are going through hard times I pray that God blesses you richly; not as the world counts riches but in the riches of HIS Kingdom.
    He gives and takes away and I will still say Blesed be His Name.

    Sheri and In His Glory your comments really blessed me.

  23. I honestly haven’t seen a change in lifestyles in people. I live in the LA area. Even people who are in foreclosure/pre-foreclosure, who live rent free while in the pre-foreclosure process (for up to one yr) are still eating out, having nails done, shopping, acting the same, etc. When you look in a restaurant, you’d think there was no bad news anywhere as restaurants are packed.

    I LOVE Sheri’s comment about the persecuted church and learning from them. Sadly, there is no one left untainted in the LA area from the hyper-charismatic / signs and wonder crowd any longer, so peace and prosperity, ‘great fun’ at church services filled with ‘the anointing’ and a “good life” is all that is ever heard from ‘full gospel’ charismatic christians. I went to a baptist church recently, a couple times, in my desire to fully leave the full gospel/charismatic circles and heard the watered down message of, “Come to God. He wants to bless you and give you a good life” there also. I was shocked. Really. I just think it is the beginning of the End of This Age.

    I’ve read Strom’s Book “Why I Left the Prophetic Movement” and hoped he was right about another revival. I started reading revival books and praying for revival. After one year, I am discouraged as Christians who say they are praying for such, use the words of “More signs, More signs. Anoint us, Anoint us to show people You are real” versus “Please have mercy and save the lost Lord”. I personally see the road being more narrow now then I recognized even a couple yrs prior, and think the great falling away (into error and lusts of the flesh) is occurring rapidly and things will only get worse. Hope of revival has slipped away from me currently since no one seems to care about Who the True God of the Bible is anymore.

    Sin abounds…but lets just go out and enjoy ourselves and live it up today! So in answer to the question: No. I have not seen any changes in the world or in the church.

  24. In early October of 2007 I was given Isaiah 32:10 “In little more than a year you who feel secure will tremble; the grape harvest will fail, and the harvest of fruit will not come.” (NIV) and marked it my bible with the year and month.

    In looking today at the context of that whole passage, I notice that after the chastisement or really in the midst of it there is the gracious promise of the Spirit being poured out on those who are His……

    Isa 32:9 Rise up, ye women that are at ease; hear my voice, ye careless daughters; give ear unto my speech.

    Isa 32:10 Many days and years shall ye be troubled, ye careless women: for the vintage shall fail, the gathering shall not come.

    Isa 32:11 Tremble, ye women that are at ease; be troubled, ye careless ones: strip you, and make you bare, and gird [sackcloth] upon [your] loins.

    Isa 32:12 They shall lament for the teats, for the pleasant fields, for the fruitful vine.

    Isa 32:13 Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns [and] briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy [in] the joyous city:

    Isa 32:14 Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks;

    Isa 32:15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.

    Isa 32:16 Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.

    Isa 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.

    Isa 32:18 And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;

    Isa 32:19 When it shall hail, coming down on the forest; and the city shall be low in a low place.

    Isa 32:20 Blessed [are] ye that sow beside all waters, that send forth [thither] the feet of the ox and the ass.

    It seems in His dealings with us, it’s when we come to the end of ourselves, to the end of all hope from a human point of view, and when we are looking to Him as our only hope then He becomes our hope and our help.

  25. Amen Mum , its been a while since we have had any exchanges. -:)

  26. Bless you Kevin, how are you? I’m just quieter than I used to be, I think. ; )

  27. zeal4thyhouse Jun 14th 2012

    Amen to your post.

    Many people will follow down the same path that you are on.

    The Lord God Almighty is such a gracious God. He is giving every single person enough change to turn to Him.

    He is behind EVERYTHING that is happening, but we humans are so hard, stubborn and stiff-necked. Few are really turning to Him amidst fierce trials and tribulations. However, the Lord will keep working in people.

    No one will have an excuse on that day!

    Glory to God!

    Me and my family went through an extremely hard 7 years and, yes, I agree completely with you.
    We can get through life with so little. It is amazing.

    The Scripture clearly commands us in Matt 6:19-21,
    “Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
    But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
    For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

    But we do exactly that! Gather up treasure here on earth!!
    How few are really and truly obeying this command??

    We landed up in a corrugated iron shack for 5 and a half years without clean running water and electricity ONLY for lights. And then without a car, while 5 kilometres outside of town.

    Praise God for that! He taught us how to truly live by faith and be content with what we have. But the best of all is, He brought all of us into His Kingdom.

    He raised us up and is still busy, while we are excitingly waiting on Him to send us where He wants to.

    All the Glory to our risen King, the Lord Jesus Christ

  28. In 1974 the Holy Spirit told me a depression was coming, and that I was to prepare God’s people by teaching them what happened AFTER it happens (because most are blind to it all) and to teach (and live) a simple, peaceful, Acts model life style of self sufficiency. IT was clear that this did not mean an armed camp or common purse community or a secluded cult. We are not to live in fear or be anxious … just dwell in the peace of God.

    In 1985 the Holy Spirit told me to move to the extreme north west corner of Arkansas to live in community, and we did.
    Since then my wife died after 43 years of marriage (and I lost that income). I was 69 when she died. Then in 2008 my house lost $40,000 in value, and eventually I lost my house. At age 75 I am working in my old profession as a web developer. All in our community are so poor that we all are busy making a living, and don’t have resources to build the greenhouse we know we need.

    Despite the fact that the message the Lord gave me in 1974, and despite the part time job I have, here I am living by miracles to an uncomfortable degree and anticipate eventually living by miracles alone before we see Jesus face to face. But we are at peace and rejoice that we get to live in these prophetic last days.

    The Lord blessed me with another wife who is in complete agreement with me and our Lord. Praise the Lord!

  29. Kathleen’s testimony is much like what my family went through in 1987. We lost in one day two thirds of our wealth in the stock market crash. It was brutal and sharp. After going through about 15 years of many ups and downs, God taught me so many things about ‘myself’ and His Kingdom, I wouldn’t change a single thing about those bad years (financial) and learning His closeness and perfect Word He fed me, in our one on one basis… All the wealth in the world is not worth His Holiness and His Perfect Word. Now I can truly say He is my life and I depend on Him alone.

    In all this mess happening all around the world, there is the perfect reason: The Lord is carrying out His Word of the end times. He has always given us a choice, our own will, He will not tamper with. He has lossened the devil on this earth and we are seeing the evil he is doing. No wonder Christ said, Woe to the Babes born in the last days…..Now I see what He meant. I understand the horror and reason we must hang on to our Lord and Savior, and nobody else. I am actually watching everything happen in awe. I feel so very, very sorry for those who choose the world instead of Life. Then again He said He wished all would come to Salvation, but all along He knew they wouldn’t… He is drawing those who are His to Him right now. Don’t be afraid, be expectant. Pray for your family, your kin and your friends. And pray for the lost of this world…Come Lord Jesus.

  30. Mum, it is much the same way for me, just getting on quietly with what He puts before me.

    Blessings to you and your family

    In His Love :)

  31. Jina in WA/USA Jun 14th 2012

    Ken – your faithfulness is a testimony to anyone who know you or those of us who are blessed by your walk of faith. I wish we all could coorespond more intimately – encouraging one another…as the days grow darker. Just as in the days of Noah…I see man and beast co-habitating and becoming likened unto The Beast. We need to rely only on The True King that has been here and beckoning us to relinquish ALL ties to the god of this age.

  32. Andrew Jun 14th 2012

    Awesome testimonies, everyone.


    Sad that it seems that for the average person out there, there is more “disaster” needed to bring the materialistic and selfish lifestyle to an end. I call it the “long grind” and I pray it does its work well in our culture so that some real “hunger” returns by the end of this decade.

    Otherwise, in my view, the West is lost.

    Bless you all,


  33. God is sovereign.I know this is a phrase used a lot in Christendom but I don’t think it is truly believed by most of the people that quote it.
    God is in control even when it doesn’t appear to be the case in our view.
    Satan is not running around on the loose causing chaos anywhere he wantsto.God truly does have him on a short leash.He doesn’t do anything that God doesn’t allow.He has to get God’s permission to do anything.We see that in the case of Job.God brought Job to Satan’s attention.
    God the Father is in just as much in control in our time.He is control in the lives of individuals and whole nations.Everything that is happening is under God’s control.
    Judgement does begin at the house of God and we are in the beginning stages of God’s judgement.It is not hard to see that God is dealing with Laodicean church and the necolaitanes.If you “my pastor’ chances are you are a nicolaitane.
    Changing subjects I saw where two or three people mentioned the antichrist being revealed or coming on the scene.I think it strange that I have not met anyone that believes the harlot mentioned in the book of Revelation is one woman.A

  34. Almost everyone believes she represents the false church made up of multitudes of people.My question is why don’t people see that antichrist is very similar .John says antichrist cometh and goes on to say already are there many antichrists.You see from what John says antchrist has been in the world already for a long time.Why are people looking for one man to come on the scene.While you are looking for this future character he is all around you.Antichrist is a spirit made up of multitudes of people just like the body of Christ is made up of multitudes of people.
    The Harlot is not one person,the antichrist is not one person and the false prophet is not one person.
    God Bless

  35. Hi Jina,

    Thank you for your encouraging words. You can correspond with me if you wish (we would love it here).

    In case you haven’t noticed yet, just run your courser over “Ken” to the left and click to go to my website. is my web page on Christian community.

    Bro. Andrew (and many others) are telling it as it really is. There are so many “Christian” fear mongers and rabble rousers out there that are getting the brethren to focus too much on the problem and not enough on the solution.

    The solution is abiding in the peace and security of Christ and being where He would place us.

    The problem is Satan and his hordes who are distracting us from God’s voice and peace. Otherwise known as the Antichrist, one-world social, economic, political and spiritual agenda.

    My wife and I write many articles (for my forum and our websites and email newsletters) that focus (as Bro. Andrew does) on the spiritual agenda … the heretical falling away … because so many Christians are falling for it.

    By name, the Dominionist heresy among hyper-Charismatics, and the Emergent heresy among our Evangelical brethren.

    Be encouraged brethren, many are not listening right now, but if our fruit stays sweet we will eventually reach some of them … by the grace and mercy of the Lord!

    I did not question or walk away from my Savior when my darling wife died in 2005. I did not disparage and feel I would never be in community when I lost my house in 2009.

    But I did begin to be encouraged when the Lord brought me another wife to love and work with, and hundreds of people to my forums and website articles.

    I sooooo long to move to the country again, as I did for so many years, and garden and milk goats again. The mountains and trees here drown out much of the noise of the antichrist system and one can find His peace in the stillness.

    Hopefully this word of encouragement will compel some of you to ask the Lord so you can know where the Lord wants you to be, and then go there and do what He has set in place to do. That is the safest place in the world … for you. For us, right now we are writing and teaching. Soon He will get us on that quiet country retreat … sooooon!

  36. DeWayne Jun 14th 2012

    I believe if you do some research (internet image – key words for image ‘inflation since 1800′), you will find that America had it’s up and down’s financially since 1800’s, and after each such condition the economy was stabilized… until 1913 when the Federal Reserve was established… and then inflation began taking off until today it is astronomical.

    I believe this was all pre-planned signs of the times as were prophesied, carried out by the servants and sanctuary of Satan. I have a made web page on this issue, Comcast will no longer accept (only) this particular page.

  37. I think that God isn’t interested in saving the West. As an American father of an American daughter who, at the age of seventeen, is preparing to move into her young adulthood, I rest in the assurance that God is on His throne. She is courageous, compassionate and loves the Lord. She, and so many others, were made for this time, and God has prepared the hearts of many mothers and fathers to lead them out.

    What many on the outside-looking-in cannot understand is that America was born in adversity, has shed it’s blood in adversity and continues in adversity. Kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall, why should we be any different? And as for sin, or bad seed sowed in amber fields of grain; our heritage is one of obedience to the parable regarding slaves taking the sickle or sword to the unrighteous. If, as shadows fall and days grow more difficult, the Lord should find the righteous and unrighteous living side by side, then doesn’t He have us were He wants us?

    The light of a lamp shines brightest in the darkest nights. And as the Lord reminded me a few years ago; remember Johah, remember Nineveh! If He calls us to sackcloth and ashes then we are among the fortunate left in this world, and let the church change its clothes; man, woman, child and beast.

    God is good and merciful and just. He will never leave us or forsake us. Millions of Americans remember His name.

    The faith of this coming generation is unlike anything I’ve ever seen. Their forefathers gave their lives on distant shores and lie in distant nameless graves, but Jesus knows their names and beholds them even now. Shall He forget their children or their childrens children? We understand sacrafice. We never intended to stay.

  38. Randall Jun 14th 2012

    Wow, God sure gets blamed for a lot of things, including the lower living standards of the west. Actually this whole process has actually been very carefully planned all along by the evil elite who want to move things along towards the one world government control. Oh, I must mention that one goal they have is the elimination of 19 people out of 20, or to put it bluntly, 95% of us must die.

    It will be most interesting to see if there is a revival of anykind, but the spiritual molasses of apathy and sleep seems to have done its work quite well, just as satan has intended. I am praying that we heed the Lord’s admonition to wake up, as he addressed the true condition of the Laodicean church, but the continued slide of the visible church off the landscape into the abyss seems unrestrained, to say the least.

    As to attributing the economic downturn to God, this is a seriously faulty conclusion. God is not to be blamed at all.

    Can God use it to call people to spirituality? Yes, indeed.

    Spiritual purging? Nope, I think it is simply the devil collecting his due, after all he is much much more aware of how God’s laws work (shame on us) than most Christians are and so he has simply taken advantage of them (to our detriment) while we fumble and stumble around blindly asking “What happened?” much to the sarcastic laughter of the evil one and his minions.

  39. Tenney Singer Jun 14th 2012

    les, you are interpreting scripture with scripture, which is the correct way to do it. I have also seen that “the man of perdition” is anyone who lives with sin in control, the temple that God should occupy is the man who should be surrendered and filled with the Holy Spirit (Jesus called His body the temple that would be raised in three days), and the Beast is a government system as all the beasts in Daniel’s vision were government systems. There is a lot more and one of the sources I have used is, where there are a lot of free books available to help people see the truth of the end times and “build an ark of safety.” Basically, our ark is Jesus Christ and our safety is fully trusting Him. Ultimately we leave everything behind to live forever with Him. Now or later.

  40. Tenney Singer Jun 14th 2012

    Sorry, the correct link is:

  41. “Do not call conspiracy everything that these people call conspiracy; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as Holy, He is the one you are to fear, He is the One you are to dread.” Isaiah 8:12-13.

    If the Holy Spirit wasn’t speaking to us today, then who was He speaking to? There isn’t much difference between fear and whisky, you drink it too long and it’s the only thing you know.

    Be strong and courageous! If you lap up what the devil is sending downstream you’ll find yourself running each other through when the real trouble begins.

    Fear God. Serve God. Love God. Live God.

    We have been set free! Take a breath, say your prayers and get back in there; wherever your where is supposed to be. And for the love of Heaven will everyone stop acting like anything strange is happening. We’re not omniscient; we’re servants.

    I would like to say, as a true word of encouragement, if you are indeed despairing, take some time to truly grieve. I spent nearly three months grieving the ideals I had to let go of; and sometimes I still take time to feel His sorrow and mine.. The Lord grieves with us, for us and for this world; the world which He Himself created and every person in it.

    Sometimes there’s nothing better than a good cry to clear the fog of this dying world, to see the good worth living–and worth dying for.

    Don’t worry. It’s in His hands.

    Let His light shine. Remember; children of the Light, Kingdom of Light. If your light becomes darkness, how great is that darkness.

    Now eyes up! On Him! Reflecting, reflecting, reflecting…

    Yours truly,

    Somewhere in Texas

    (They’ll get my Faith Hope and Love when they pry them from my cold dead hands–‘Cos I’ll be dead–and gone!) Jesus fist bump!

  42. WatchNPray Jun 14th 2012

    My husband and I have been living with the 40% drop in net worth because he had to take disability and leave his job. That means -no vacations, no spontaneous fun activities, only sale items @grocery store, only BOGO @ restaurants which is very rare even then, gas is very high in NC..costs too much to travel. Our home value has dropped. It would cost too much to renovate now to sell to those that want move in ready condition and now we do not have the money. Our american dream has changed. During all this, we can still Praise Him because He is Lord of our lives, and we praise Him from whom all blessings flow. Today’s blessings are so much more heart felt and simple because our eyes are on Him and we see His blessings in new ways we werent able to see before. STUFF gets in the way..especially here in USA. We are cleaning out and donating and giving away all things we do not really need. HE has spoken to our hearts to make our lives more simple. He is working within us causing us to see areas that do not look like HIM. He is purging and changing us. Honestly, it is an exciting adventure although it can be painful. It is so very worthwhile. We thank Him for it all. We believe He is judging the american church. We need to turn from our wicked ways and back to Him. LORD MAKE US LIKE YOU..YOU ARE THE POTTER…WE ARE THE CLAY!

  43. I don’t think most Americans have changed their mindset yet. Most people think it is ‘obviously’ the Democrats / Republicans fault.

    Here in Wisconsin, we just went through a ridiculous recall election of Govenor Walker. He survived, but it really brought out the ‘entitlement’ mentality of many people. That is going to be a tough nut to crack – this idea that “I AM ENTITLED…”

    An earlier individual mentioned a book named “The Harbinger”. I would highly, strongly recommend reading this book. It is a very excellent book.

    Personally, I am doing better than five years ago. Everything I have is invested in farmland. Given the strong commodity prices, we are doing well. And farmland values are soaring. My primary objective right now is to cut debt as much as possible and improve the soils of my farm. It would not surprise me that in the future, having a small farm (a couple hundred acres) might not be a blessing for a lot of people. I have the land / equipment. If someone supplies the labor, there are things we can do to provide for others.

  44. Jim, do you have a website? Will you provide your email address so interested people can contact you about your offer to those who will supply the labor to work your farm land.

    I know from experience that you will probably have some visitors to check it all out. I have years of experience in this area. But maybe you do too.

  45. Craig….you are absolutely right. When the world wide fall happens, the true America….the one that looks towards God will function as God intended since our founding….hopefull in more than bits and places throughout America. America needs to seek the Light of her roots and foundations that were built upon God and were here before the darkness of the World Wars opened our doors to other cultures of “sophistication”, liberalism and the antichrist immoral tainted cultures from other lands came within our country…infecting the young….and those who rule over us in darkness now. Women left their homes to work in factories, and the taste of money was good…..and replaced True Value. People flocked to the cities where immorality and money were more readily available….life was easier, they thought. They stopped having a family garden and canning food that would last for a year without electricity….they bought into the commercial foods that destroy your health…..because it is easier. The “self” became more important than the “family” and more important than God’s standards and values. The true love for life in the country which God fosters was replaced by the love for the city life which the dragon fosters, and the opportunity to cloister together with others of like minds. Man elevated himself….and diminished God. Man inflated the value of his money. Many have lost 40% of their economic value because the value of their homes and other house investments was totally overinflated way back in 2004. It was a 40% value that was lost that was never real. That is the problem. Our entire system is built upon something that is not real!!! God wanted people to build their home and live there, not borrow against them and use them for usury. The home was to be for the family for generations and was to include enough land to grow food upon. That was God’s plan for man. It is the cities and those who live in them that the dragon most loves! They are why all these things are happening now…..just as God said. The cities are plundering all the rest of what God created. The cities which exist all over the world….not just in America.

    This economic collapse, worldwide is being orchestrated in the dark….many have known it for years…if they have been “watching” as God instructed. 2012 is the last relative “normal” year to get our affairs in order, learn to garden and preserve foods. Europe will fall first, wars will break out in the middle east, major nations will get involved….Russia, China both are dealing behind the scenes in the dark to position themselves to come out on top….using those in the middle east…pretending to be friends. The Globalists have laid their foundations in the dark and in 2013 they will be ready to “save the economy” after they have orchestrated it’s collapse. Their “salvation” will include a cashless economy…..which you can participate in….until that time when you have to pledge your allegience to the “system” above and before any god that you may have. A true Christian cannot do that….put anything before God. You better have something tucked away to feed yourself and your family and friends for a few months when this happens. By the beginning of 2015 there will be persecutions in all nations, and mandatory worship….with the 7th trumpet sounding later on in 2015….probably late fall. Ask yourself a question…..will you take the pledge to secure medical attention, food stamps? Because all those things will be part of the system, just as your disability and retirement checks. Are you willing to endure unto death for God?

    I truly hope our nation turns back to God in a manner that God finds true….so that He will use us as He originally planned….so we can serve Him. If we don’t….He will cast us away just as He cast the Jews away until His return. Hopefully we, and other nations, will also have a reminant within our country that stands true, quietly, larger than most suspect, and who are ready to point the Way…being wise as serpents and gentle as doves.

    God has given us the timetable within the Bible, but we listen to Man instead of God. God wants us to know….so that all will know that He is God. His old testement prophets told us the time table. The dragon wants us to be in the dark….he wants us to be deceived.

    This is a wonderful time….because we can see that God is bringing His Kingdom here to Earth! There is no greater Glory and Hope that we could have! The end of man’s rule and the beginning of God’s Rule……PERFECTION!!! Eventually….no more EVIL!!!!

    John 3=And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.

    John 15:10=.“If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commandments and remain in his love”.

    Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    Matthew 6: (9-13) (Jesus Speaking) In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

    1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

  46. DeWayne Jun 14th 2012

    I would like to ask Christians, stop using PR key words that mind control agencies have already implanted in most minds directing emotional responce… I’m thinking of the overuse concerning ‘Liberal and Conservative’… we good, them bad.

    If unsure, look into Websters dictionary for a clear definition of words ‘Liberal’ and ‘Conservative’, being political psychobabble that is pure foolisness.

    This is much like another misleading ploy, that, good can come out of evil. Conversely (as above), evil can come out of good… or saying good is evil, and evil is good. Just say politically, we Christians have a choice politically, being the lesser of evils.

  47. I greatly am moved to read the testimony of my American cousins and the change in your circumstances.Kathleen et al.
    Here in Oz we are told we never had it so good yet our debt is rising daily!
    I would say God has blessed America, they have become a “great people” The world is indebted to the American Bible Society, the British and Foreign Bible Society They have been the means of bringing millions to a knowledge of the Word of Life! America, Britain and their allies have at great cost in lives and wealth safeguarded us from tyranny in my lifetime.

    Global disaster yet again threatens us,insurmountable problems on every hand, financial, social. moral dwindling resources, pollution on every level including the highest of all the church! wherever we look we see difficulty rising at an ever increasing rate
    As we all know there is just one answer “He which testifies these things says, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. ”
    In the past Individual nations have faced this dilemma but never the on global scale we now see Truly we may well be in the great tribulation (situation) Jesus referred to in Math 24

    I do not believe that God is behind this modern disaster, rather man has brought it upon himself!

    Yes there is a “grand conspiracy” it began in the garden of God and has been running rampant ever since. We believed the lie then and continue to pay the price, on the whole man has refused to accept the ransom paid by his would be Redeemer.”Oh Jerusalem how often would i have ….. yet you refused”

    Les, the harlot woman, as with ant-christ has been around for centuries? Surely It can not be manifest today in one particular nation, if that is what you mean by one woman A. !
    I wish my brethren would study the reformers and their prophetic understanding! it just may show some light on the future that is “enlightening” for us all.

    For the present, take heart in Math 6 19-34
    Pr Michael

  48. Long, long ago in a galaxy far.. far away, I began as a new Christian attending my first Christian church, a relatively new Wesleyan church. One of the astounding statements of this pastor (I now believe was an Apostle), said (about the light and salt), that some Christian’s were so heavenly minded, they were no earthly good.

    Much like the ability concerning signs of the weather, in relation to the (spiritual) works/signs of the times, searching the word and world around me, it soon became obvious much (in the world) is not as it appears… nor often (in the church) as is heard.

    Concerning the “Judean/Christian” heritage of America, I would encourage more suspicion concerning US Corp-Gov and Corp-Media (and this ESOPs US history), and learn to discern the (true) times/histories.. some people I hear were trying to escape the ‘church’.

    For example more recent, when Pres-Obama had Libya attacked by NATO (see ‘Stay Behind NATO Militaries’) and with imported rebels, said because of terrible atrocities by Gaddafi against Libyan citizens, the UN Human Rights Comm. was doing in Jan 12, 2011 a report of accolades. This report spoke of Gaddafi and Gov providing Libyans with lifestyle better than many surrounding Arab nations:

    When fathers of old turned away from God, some of these fathers with family had children… many, children can live in poverty and not know it… children that starve to death, they know it.

    Did you know 50cents for these children ministries is no where near in resolving a problem, as exposing the evil of Multi-National Corp atrocities, causing it. Certainly this should as commanded, have nothing to do with the evil deeds of darkness, but rather expose them, esp when the evil is your US Corp-Gov… shouting from the roof tops is not (yet) against the law.

  49. Ibelieve Jun 14th 2012

    Just because someone mentions in passing some statement about the antichrist is not a cause to attach some whole doctrinal theory on what they was trying to say. You have not a clue what the individual believes on a subject from one small comment.

    This seems to happen a lot on the internet someone mentions something and then people write a list of untruths added to what the person was not even saying.

    I am thinking that men are locked into their doctrinal differences and then if a key word comes up in a comment, someone uses this as a springboard to add whatever they want to what the person has not said or even believes.

    Its better to try and understand a comment in the context it was written then let the devil run wild in your mind with doctrinal statements that falsely accuse someone.

    Just an observation from reading some of the comments people are making.

    Well yes, I have been guilty of this also, but I am now trying to understand what it is someone is making a point on, rather then rake them over the coals with what the Bible really says. :)

    Our warfare is not with each other.

    Lord Bless your day!

  50. The Good News in all of this:
    When a person defines “worth” based upon their financial status, their house is built on sand. (Matt 7) I know, for this was my story. But when God removes material things from us, so that our worldly “net worth” is diminished, this causes us to have to redefine our worth. Their is only one kind of “worth” that will stand in the days to come and that is when our worth is defined by Jesus Christ. We must be found with our house built upon the rock. Knowing that Jesus Christ is Lord and worshiping him by obeying His Law, in Spirit and in Truth, will give us worth that is not dependent upon financial markets, but rather in the mystery of Gods sovereignty. (See Romans 11)

  51. I love the subtlety of Jesus when He spoke to the blind man.

    “What do you want me to do for you?” Jesus asked. “My rabbi,” the blind man said, “I want to see!” Mark 10:51

    It must have appeared odd that Jesus would have to ask; but of course, He didn’t have to.

    We all put effort into the ministries and callings the Lord has bestowed upon each of us, but it is far too easy to lose sight of the face of Jesus and the heart of His concerns. I find it neccessary to ask the Lord to show me what I’m not seeing. I’m no longer suprised to find that deception has crept in; and most often through my emotions and the death-trap of self pity.

    His ways are always more interesting, and I find that He is far more concerned for others than I am. God Is, and always will be.

  52. MICHAEL,I accidentally posted my comments before I was finished.The two posts were meant to be one.
    Yes,the Harlot has been around as long as false religion. She has been around since Cain slew able.
    TENNEY Singer, I am going to look at that site you recommended after I finish this post.I think that when we read John17:12 and 2Th2:3 we can see that Judas was a type for the end time body of people that are professing Christians until the pressure gets to be too much and they deny Christ and fall away.This represents a lot of people.Just as Judas appeared to be just like the other disciples and even worked miracles so it is with the spiritual Judas body of people.They are hidden in the church until the time of the falling away and will betray God’s people.That body of people is what is taken out of the way spoken of in 2Th2:7.Jesus said I am the way.
    RANDALL ,God doesn’t get the blame ,he gets the credit. Due32:39,Isa 45:7
    God Bless

  53. DeWayne, I am thinking that you have not looked into the dictionary definition of the two words that you condem.

    Here is the dictionary definition of “LIBERAL”: Liberal= broad-minded; tolerant of different views and standards of behavior in others. In the progressive politically or social definition, it is a favoring gradual reform, especially political reforms that extend democracy, distribute wealth more evenly, and protect the personal freedom of the individual.

    Conservative as defined in the Dictionary: Reluctant to accept change, in favor of preserving the status quo and traditional values and customs, and against abrupt change. Conventional in appearance, restrained in style and avoiding showiness.

    To even try to disallow the use of the word “Liberal”, or the word “Conservative” as to what they stand for now….is to attempt to compromise with God’s standards. The contrast between these two words is exactly what the dragon attempts to obliterate! Knowledge of these two words are critical to our understandings of God.

    I have watched those who claim to be liberal for many years….and what I have seen is that they stand on nothing solid. They change directions depending upon what they are pursuing….and they never incorporate “truth” in their methods. They compromise with God’s standards. God is not liberal….He is conservative….unchanging. The dictionary is clear as to the meaning of liberal. I use that word in truth and accuracy.

    It sounds like you are trying to be politically correct….which is another great sin upon this earth. The only correctness is in God and His standards.

    I say again, that when God’s Kingdom is upon this earth…many who think they are christian will not like the rule that He sets up, because it will be with an iron rod….an inflexible rule….which has no room for “liberalism” within it. Many will find that with their liberal ideas, that God will say to them when they are standing before Him….I can’t have you helping me, for your ways are not mine. There will be no room in His Kingdom coming for those who speak His words but do not want to do the work as God intended. The work of providing food from the soil to feed His people, those who are not lazy, who are not outside of His Word. Compassion and mercy will be for the ill and the lame, not for the lazy. All will be required to sweat in their labor as they til the soil and preserve the food. They will find that they have little time left to create a complex understanding of Jesus Christ and the Word. They will understand the simplicity that is Christ….unchanging.

    I don’t know what god you worship….but the God I worship is not a liberal. He is not broad minded, and He is not tolerant of views that differ from His, or standards that differ from His. He is not for gradual reform, He is not a God of democracy where man has a say as to what goes. His is the only Word…and He is unchanging. He does not believe in distributing wealth, but in earning your way and contributing your efforts for the good of all. He is definitely not for protecting the PERSONAL freedom of the individual. He is all about us setting aside our personal freedom of SELF for Him.

    Again, I ask….what God do you worship? You do realize that when the Omega Christ returns to set up His Kingdom, He is carrying a rod of iron….what do you think that means? INFLEXIBLE.

    God has given the earth a chance to demonstrate man’s rule. God has shown all creation that man is incapable of ruling himself without God. Even our founding fathers in America stated that the rules that were set up for our Republic could not sustain it, if they did not keep the honor and truth of God within it…and if they did not remain educated and informed. So much for the freedom of man. When an ignorant population and those within the cities have the majority vote in a governing body….there are no more standards. The current administration of liberals are trying to destroy our constitution because they find it confining and restrictive of their personal freedoms. God is thrown away for the selfish pleasure and ways of man. God’s rule will not be a democracy dependent upon any man’s vote.

    As for our leaders….they are children. They lied from the beginning. They are no example of what America stands for….they hate America….it was obvious to any who were watching when they ran for office. They worship the dragon of power and glory….and use all his ways of deceit to achieve their goals. The populations of the cities now outnumber the populations in the rural settings (where God wanted us to be). That is why the dragon encourages people to seek the “easy” way and the “inlightened” way of the cities of man.

    I have had many years of watching the special groups that believe they can manage the world for the best, man’s way, solving all the ills. Population control, land management, resource management….all of it. It is all about what the dragon has been trying to prove to all the heavenly watchers…..that the dragon’s plan for earth was and is better than God’s. God has given the dragon reign to do this… that all can see that the dragon’s way bears no fruit. It will soon be over. Many in those special groups actually think they are doing the world a favor with their “broader” world view. Adam and Eve did not partake of that which the dragon offered because they wanted evil, or desired it…but because they were liberals who believed in their “personal” freedom. They were told not to commune with the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They were disobedient….chosing their personal freedom….chosing the broad way…..the liberal way….when they took the dragon’s words over our God’s. We have freedom of choice….but what we forget is that our choices are held to God’s standard, and we are accountable and responsible for those choices. ACCOUNTABILITY AND RESPONSIBILITY, two things that the dragon and his liberal mind set has encouraged us to toss into the garbage. The dragon has turned “tolerance” within the churches into a sin….he works the same on “compassion” and “mercy”. Letting man think that these things come from man. No….they come from God….only God is capable of applying these things…..with His perfect KNOWLEDGE.

    We are at this dead-end because man applied misguided compassion and mercy where it should not have been applied….in defiance of God’s Standards….because man chose to follow man’s understandings instead of the Word of God. Our compassion, mercy, and love has to include the Standards of God…or it becomes a tool of Pollution used by the dragon. This working of man caused the tares to mulitiply and prosper upon the earth. We face the consequences today. We chose the LIBERAL way over God’s CONSERVATIVE Way.

    Those things that will happen in the End Times are also not punishment….(tho man’s words in the bible would call them that, due to their lack of understanding)…..The End Times are about a Farmer who is eliminating that which….if left to thrive eternally….will eventually pollute the Perfect Pattern for all His other Created Beings, and the Pattern which allows all to function in Harmony. It is not about punishment….but protection.

    God is my PROTECTOR, may His Perfect Will protect me from those who follow their own will, and protect me from my own self will. May God not change according to my understandings of Him.

    Mankind throughout the ages has always tried to complicate things, usually for his own ego and glory and power. Even within the Apostles the last commandment was broken. Tho shall not covet. They concerned themselves with which one was the favorite of Christ. Christ did not make them perfect….He saved them. Satan uses this fault in man, and through man and the teachings of man, pollute the Word of God given to us. Each Christian in this day and age has the Bible, and they should not rely alone on another man’s teaching of that Bible. They should not take the easy way. They should fear the Lord enough, knowing what happens if they fall short, and study the Word of God.

    2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    Isaiah 66: Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

    God never fails…..God works with man’s free will, knowing the results thereof. Knowing the results does not stop God from doing what is right, as God cannot deny His character. While mankind has free will, as planned by God…..mankind can choose not to flourish in a Godly manner upon earth, and by his choices he can ultimately choose to fail. Any other will chosen, except for the Will of God, leads to failure.

    God created the Dragon….even tho God knew what the Dragon would cause. That does not make God imperfect. That makes God just and righteous, honorable and true….and all knowing, as the Dragon fits God’s plans. Even the Dragon was created with free will…..the will to choose either good ( GOOD= THE CONSERVATIVE WILL, UNCHANGING TRUTH… OF GOD) or evil (EVIL=LIBERAL, BROADMINDED, PERSONAL FREEDOM OF SELF OVER GOD’S STANDARDS). . That is the plan…..God wants to gather those who naturally and with their hearts choose good, to be with Him, and to continue His Great Plan…..His Mystery for Mankind. God will, with righteousness one day soon, totally destroy evil…. and all those who chose that which was evil and unholy. Then….all free will, just naturally, also becomes God’s will. Our will is replaced with His. God is so awesome in His plan… much bigger than we can define.

    He is UNCHANGING and He is a CONSERVATIVE. I will choose His Nature any day.

    I am a CONSERVATIVE for God, as there is no other WAY.

  54. zeal4thyhouse Jun 14th 2012

    Anthony Polenski,

    You are so right.
    People on here still talk about their nett worth and what else.

    You are ONLY worth something if Jesus Christ is truly Lord of your life, i.e. your ALL in all.

    All the glory to HIM.

  55. Martin Jun 15th 2012

    Claudia, my wife and I stand with the God of the Bible, a Conservative God. To find someone in agreement with that gladdens are hearts.

    That post took a long time to write, and from the heart, but it was well worth doing!

  56. Martin Jun 15th 2012

    Now, let’s just slow this up a few moments; judgements are already flying around and that shouldn’t happen.

    A Christian is in a family. We are being conformed to the image of Christ as we grow in Him; eventually to be the spotless Bride.

    As with any family there are old people, full of wisdom and years, and babes who still need feeding. Oh, and pretty much everything in between.

    If some are counting their net worth, that’s a matter for the Lord Jesus, not us. But let us remember also, before anymore judgements are hurled, we are all exhorted in both Testaments to be good stewards of that which is entrusted to us.

    There will be some in the family recovering from blessing themselves richly in the prosperity gospel, seeking the Lord for the level at which He desires for them to live, discerning that which has truly been entrusted to them. Others will be relieved at not needing to provide for a family at such a high standard.

    My wife and I are suffering through this judgement; but also through the cold Masonic hand which dealt a cruel blow. We’re glad we won’t die more prosperous than the Lord wishes for us and be judged as a Dives/rich man/woman.

  57. Every Christian will be tested, many times in a lifetime. When my family lost most of those zero’s behind our ‘wealth’, God did miraculous things in my life (about 15 years, non-stop) that finally turned me into the person I am today. (Nothing That I can do will please God; it is His Son who keeps growing in me.(paraphrased) Every trial is for you edification and growth. Learn from it so you can ‘grow’ on in your walk.
    I know now not to try to deceive Him or hide things, for Oh He knows, He knows! His love and grace are sufficient, always and always. I learned not to judge so quickly, quoting the Word, until He taught me His word on a one to one basis. Someday you’ll see how foulish and immature you were to talk for God and smash heads to put the truth in them. We all are a work in progress. I stumbled over and over in my early years. Now I know you can learn as much as you’re mind will hold, (and man, mine held a lot), but until He teaches you personally, in prayer, mediating on Him day and night (Psalms I), it’s only head knowledge. I was nothing but flashy tinsel and mighty crashing cymbals, oh me! Heart and head knowledge blended together is what conquers any foe – Truth vs false.

  58. I smile often as I read what you say Joan, Bless you sister, Love in the Lord, Andrew… :-)

  59. Teshuva Jun 15th 2012

    AMEN Joan W
    Boy, I love it when Father pops the cork to His new wine that has aged in vessels like you and a few others here.
    It makes a heart merry and does good as a medicine.

  60. Andrew Jun 15th 2012

    Great insights, Joan.

    Bless you!


  61. Caudia…
    You rsponce indicates emotional conviction within political standards, while my warning was not to be trapped by and within foolish words, such as ‘Liberal’ and ‘Conservative’ (within political conotation and bend).

    Did you notice at all that these words today are so very closely linked to politics, hopefully you will find more accurate definition if linked to God as liberal in love, and conservative concerning immediate judgment.

    Consider for a moment that just possibly their are good and decent Christians that call themselves democrats (liberal). You have alienated yourself in a nation that almost 50% consider themselves Dem, and 50% calling themselves Gop, making the later saintly, and the lberal mostly evil.

    You say you worship the true God, and I another god, yet you look forward to conditions yet of this earth, when prophecy says the last days will be like the time of creation never before seen, and never to be seen again. Like the saints in the NT saying ‘since everything will be destroyed in this way what ought we to be’, and also in keeping with the promise, we are looking forward to the new heaven and earth.

    You blame the (people in the world) for doing what the Lord says they do, but do not mention the workers of salt and light, nor the slow failure within the church being corrupted. Were you among the first to accept Christian Pres-GW Bush beginning war in Iraq, or after the war when found a Crime Against Humanity. Ae you in favor of ‘Just Wars’ like Pres-Clinton bombing and killing Iraq-civilians w/o Constitutional declaration of war. Are you aware of the command, have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

    As the Word has made clear to me, the workers are few, yet God has predestined a works (of His purpose) for all saints.You are correct God works with ‘man of free will’, however qouting scripture needs have validity within all of Gods word, even Satan (mis)quoted scripture.

    God never fails, which may give you wonder concerning the last of days prophecy. Again, keep away from the politics of this age, other than being a good citizen, and this today requiring choice between lesser of two evils… so the secular call it. One last command Christ gave those being sent out, ‘I send you as sheep among wolves, therefore be as (shrewd/wise as the snake/serpent), but as innocent as doves, and of course ‘have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darknes, but rather expose them… as I also found direction from the Lord.

  62. DeWayne Jun 15th 2012

    I would like to see a study begun, about the ministry of Christ at a time when the House of Judah (two tribes) had returned, with observance that the House of Israel (ten tribes) had not returned… with perhaps but a few escaping the 721BC conquering down into Judah.

    Christ spoke then predominantly to the Jew’s, also of interest was Christ’s three warnings, about one master, father, and teacher.

    I believe these two have important meaning for today.

  63. Ibelieve Jun 15th 2012

    Very good comment Joan W.

    I think sometimes it is easy for us as humans to deceive ourselves thinking everything is great when it is not quite where God wants us to be. In other words we don’t see ourselves as God sees us until we let Him have His way.

    Its one thing to be Bible taught and another to be Spirit taught.

    There is a deeper life in the Spirit that many just come to the threshold and look in, never going forward in all that God has.

    In Him,

  64. Martin Jun 15th 2012

    Andrew, as I look out on my country, the UK, it’s not possible to do anything but agree with you.

    Yet prophecies given in the last fifty years or so, strongly indicate a time of judgement upon our nations, which includes the Christians in them, before the greatest outpouring of the Holy Spirit ever witnessed.

    When Wimber arrived in London in the early nineties the rapturous welcome he received from church people assured me of two things. He was but a herald of things to come, and that our God, for reasons of His holiness, must eventually bring judgement. I’m not a prophet or seer, or the like; yet some things are immediately obvious if we have embraced the entire Bible and not just a preacher’s Bible.

    Five years ago, when consumer debt was greater than the Gross National Product, excluding mortgages, and our very modest home had tripled in value in just eight years, my wife and I knew a judgement of God was unavoidable. Our nation, once the torch bearer of the Gospel to the world, had said NO to God, and YES to Godless consumerism and profligacy. Our spirits were both troubled and relieved at the same time. Our God would bring an end to this monumental personal insult to Him.

    Yet I fully understand how Christians have become caught up in all this consumerism. The prosperity gospel is a teaching enticing the soul; yes it is entirely soulish. We all seek blessing from the Lord; yet perhaps it’s better to be a blessing to Him than always seek blessing. No one should be condemned for going wrong; rather the propagators and teachers of these spiritual aberrations should now be marginalised until their repentance is demonstrated to us. But that won’t happen. They are themselves too soulish.

    We’re not without financial pain; every penny must be counted and spent wisely. Giving must continue. But so many in my country are living in denial, avoiding the consequences of their profligacy, spending money like water, like the band playing on the deck of the sinking Titanic. Others are paying in poverty for years of free spending and Godlessness.

    The legacy we leave to our children and grand children will stand as testament to our poor stewardship of those things entrusted to us, and that includes the Gospel.

    Andrew, my household agrees with you. This judgement will only grow deeper until sufficient people, Christians and others, learn the lessons set before us. Live within your means and status, honouring the Lord in all you have. The future doesn’t look bright.

    How will history record our times? The question is rhetorical but deserves an honest answer. We could be remembered as the people of the Lord who preferred mammon to God, and paid the price. If we don’t mend our ways before a holy God, we will be the people who saw their lamp stand removed.

    Yes, it’s as serious as that!

  65. Andrew Jun 15th 2012

    Sadly, Martin, having ministered in many Western nations, I have to say that most, including much of Western Europe, UK, New Zealand, Australia – are letting their precious Christian heritage slide completely down the drain. It has happened slowly but surely now for decades. USA still has a chance to turn things around. But for how long? I feel unless there is big “move” in the next 12 years or so, it will be too late. We live in hope.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  66. Martin Jun 15th 2012

    Again, Andrew, I find myself in the place of agreeing with you. And it gives me no pleasure.

    I’ve watched UK churches do down the pan for the last forty years, at an ever increasing pace. So often mine has been the lone voice.

    A childhood friend is high on the list to be the next archbishop of Canterbury. He’s a good man, a lone voice, but he’ll be as powerless in Canterbury as he is in his present see.

    Here, seldom are sin and repentance taught, let alone practised. People are praying for revival, but I don’t believe it will come until we’ve been judged and purged so severely that nothing remains of this present order. Worst case, and most likely case, is the Israelites in the Desert, a generation lost.

    I really believe the Lamp Stand is about to depart our country. May God help us!

  67. Martin Jun 15th 2012

    Two people in the Bible, one in the OT and one in the NT, found a peculiar place. It’s mentioned just twice throughout the entire canon.

    Esau and Judas Iscariot.

    The place of no repentance.

    I’ve never heard teaching or preaching on this subject. Querying ministers and others brings forth a quizzical look. ‘Really? I didn’t know that!’ But it’s there.

    The place of no repentance. Damnation, eternally!

    Not for nothing do I often write the words of a very old pastor of mine, ‘let’s be careful of the things of God.’

    There’s not one person in Christendom who does not need to review their place in respect of the Christ, and remain in the place of repentance.

  68. Brother John Jun 15th 2012

    I live in the UK and people to include christians are wondering why disaster upon disaster is hitting the nation.
    First it was drought.
    Then its finanaces because of the EU.
    Now it is torrentual rain and flooding.
    My wife has a business in the old Jewish quarter of the city where we live. She was drawn to there because of some of her relatives having Jewish origin.
    When we talk to christians who go to local established churches, we get a blank look and indifferences when mentioning this. They tend to blame Israel for the Middle East crisis. Some believe in the Palestinian cause for a separate state and say Jews are the main problem.
    Very few christians support her shop and are prepared to come in, browse or buy anything. But Jewish visitors do.
    Anti semitism is ripe within the western church and so is the false replacement doctrine.
    Very little has changed concerning this. So it appears people have to blame someone else for what is happening in our world.
    It is no wonder why our nation is under the judgement of God. And why? REPENTANCE is being pushed aside.
    When those who claim to be christians fail to read the Word of God for themselves instead on the reliance of being spoon fed, I remind them of the parable of the ten virgins.
    For they should seek Him first and read His word regarding what will happen in the End Times. They should not rely on brethren to do this for them.
    I only have enough oil for myself. If their wicks have not been trimmed and not replenishing the oil needed to get them through these trials and tribulations, it is their fault if they are not ready when He comes.
    Then they will know what the Great Tribulation will be all about as decsribed in the Book of Revelation they are failing to read for themselves.

  69. Martin Jun 16th 2012

    Brother John is that Lincoln you’re referring to?

  70. Brother John, they threw the “Baby” out with the bathwater, I fear. Yes, each one of us must study the scriptures ourselves.. Never accept another’s word on ‘Life’, when only you can know through study, prayer (and revelation) that it must line up with His Word. not man’s word.. Let’s pray for their enlightenment. One cannot hold on to hate, unforgiveness or any of those other squirrilly deadly sins. That dastardly theology is straight from the pit!
    I was in my sixties before I ever heard of this kind of ‘stinking theology’. Nor can I begin to imagine how much suffering this has caused. God is Our Shepherd, our Source. I could go on a tirade, but that’s not wise. We all know we can take ’em to water, but it’s up to them to drink.

  71. Michelle Jun 16th 2012
  72. Martin Jun 16th 2012

    Michelle, I’ve ordered the book.


  73. I can think of no greater time than to be able to see things that seem to show that the Master is returning. Perhaps my definition of “great” is different than others….my value system is perhaps different. It is a great time we are in….because the pot is beggining to boil, and soon the Meal will be ready.

    DeWayne; One would have to be an idiot not to notice how the words liberal and conservative have been adopted in politics. That does not change the meaning of the words. Liberal and Conservative existed far longer and before our politics commenced. They are good words and are used today accurately to define behavior. The Democrate party and the leaders within that party today in no way reflect what a truly Godly person should want to label themselves with. I am not making judgements because I am not carrying out any punishment for them. We all have to be accountable for our actions….and for what we label ourselves with, if that label is not one that God would support.

    Would you place upon yourself a label of Democrat if that label was of the party that supported legal killing of babies!!!!!! Sorry…for them….and sorry for them indicating their stand by how they vote. I can guess that you must be a Democrate or you would not be so offended by my words. Carry your label proudly…..I would rather not carry those labels if the party named stood openly for that which my God abhors. I call myself a conservative….not a Republican or a Democrate because those labels stand for party platforms. If folks within those labels are too ignorant to realize that they are taking a stand for things against God, than they will have to answer to that….and to what they voted into our governing bodies. I can’t carry their burden….nor can I ignore it and not give warning.

    I asked you what god do you worship….I cannot answer that question.

    The new Heaven and the new Earth comes after the 1,000 year Mellinium Reign of Jesus Christ.

    We are in a time that we all must stand and examine ourselves and what labels we support and whether those labels are in line with God. If my saying that causes offense….than I would examine the ears that are hearing it as an offense. We are either in the WORLD or we are in JESUS CHRIST. We cannot be in both places and be popular.

    There are many things I did not mention in my posts, because it would take at least a library full of books to mention all things. I was sticking to the topic you brought up.

    I would that you would not assume you know me….because you don’t. You seem to be defending a platform that you find yourself on because of applying my words to you. I was writting those words in general, and asking you if your God was the same as mine. I clearly defined my God as a Conservative. I have no way of knowing if you see your god as Conservative….or as a higher form of man.

    Your paragraph regarding Bush seems irrelevant to what I posted…perhaps you can clarify it as to how it relates. I fear that you are prejudice and one of those that vote with your hatred….not a godly act….that is how we got the leader we now have. People voting with their hatred, which was fueled by the liberal media to promote the liberal leader that follows the dragon….the dragon who does not condemn, but supports their actions.

    I am for wars that are fought to protect the innocent and destroy evil. I think one of the reasons that US is being set adrift is that they did not use their might to pursue honor and protect people that were being tortured by their governing bodies. We chose the World and gain. We did not act quick enough to save the Jews when they were being burnt and tortured in Germany. We will pay for waiting so long to help.

    I care nothing for your politics. I will not compromise the Words in the Bible.

    What decent person casts a vote for a party that believes in partial birth abortion? That means….the baby is close to full term and is partially born, and than stabbed in the head to kill it. What person can call themselves decent and a supporter of God who will support such things?

    Just answer me that question…..? All of us will have to answer it someday. Better to get it over with and confronted while still here upon earth.

  74. cheryl Jun 16th 2012

    I’ve been reading the responses to this article, and some are interesting and others are inspiring.

    I have owned a small business for the last 15 years. Within the last 3 years it has become smaller yet. I have not raised prices for my house cleaning services in over 5 years. And I feel no loss of income. Because my Father in heaven is my provider. I don’t care if my “net worth” monetarily is down. It makes NO difference in my life. I don’t say this to boast in myself, because “myself” would like nothing better than a life of ease. Because Christ speaks to me and I try to listen, He has shown me how blessed I am. I have so much less than others who profess to belong to Him, but I don’t feel ANY lack!

    No matter who becomes POTUS, or whatever the state the world’s economy is in, we have no need to fear. He will always be with us.

  75. Martin Jun 16th 2012

    Claudia, I’m not getting into US politics with you. As a UK subject I have no part in that. But please, look outside the US and see what has happened. There’s a lesson.

    All western governments are locked into a pre-determined downward spiral. No western government is any longer sovereign.

    Now, whether we blame the Council on Foreign Relations (US) or the Bilderbergers, or the Club of Rome, Skull and Bones outfit so beloved of the Bush family, or perhaps, to stretch the imagination, the Illuminati, the fact is all western governments have the general direction of their policies dictated to them by an outside force. No President or Prime Minister is able to determine their own direction.

    Just look at us in the marooned UK. David Cameron came into office on a tide of hope and expectation. Like Obama, he all but said, change has come to the UK. Once in office he is acting out the same general direction as Brown, Blair, Major and Thatcher.

    No matter how US voters feel on election day, the net result will be more of the same. Change has come to America; Obama just didn’t tell you what change! Nor will any other candidate, judging by our experience. Until in office, they just don’t know how restricted they are.

    The economic events in the USA, as in Europe and elsewhere, were going to happen, no matter who was in power. That much is set in stone. We are all under a judgement of God and no man, least of all the US President, came face off Almighty God!

    You face what we face; rising fuel prices – ours in the UK was almost $10 a gallon last month, unemployment, stagnation of the economy, failures in health care, elder provision, education, defence, under funded pension schemes … I could go on. The system is crumbling.

    Claudia, this is a judgement of God. All these wonderful bastions we’ve put in place to heal, educate, defend, whatever, are crumbling. Perhaps this is more obvious to us Brits. It’s a judgement. No man may stand against it.

    You write about abortion. I’m as ferociously against it as you are. But there’s two sides to that event. My first wife, before I knew her, had had three abortions and adopted out one other child. She just didn’t tell me until long after we were married. She ate Valium 10 like M & M’s and drank heavily on extra strong lager. Such is the guilt after abortion; women never over come that guilt.

    Our marriage lasted twenty two years, mainly because I had not heard the Holy Spirit say, leave! Yes, there’s a very compelling and powerful case against abortions, but it’s a two way street.

    As I posted above, I agree, our God is a conservative God. But here on earth, it seems to matter little which way a vote is cast, except to say at our judgement, I believed what the candidate said.

    Please don’t harangue deWayne; I believe it matters little which way the voting goes, like us, you’ll get more of the same. Our politicians can’t do other.

  76. DeWayne, are you aware that to follow God we will alienate ourselves from the world? Do you realize that if Christ sought popularity in order not to alienate anyone….that the dragon would not have been defeated? That Christ would not have than done the Will of God, and alientated 100% of the population of the world? Perhaps I misunderstand your written word, and you were not condeming me for alienated 50% of the US population…as tho that was a “bad” thing?

    If I have misquoted scripture, as you seemed to hint at, without coming right out and possibly “alienateding” me, I would like to be corrected for my edification, with clear examples. Can you do that? I know I am not perfect and will not be until changed. I welcome correction….for my growth….I seek it with boldness.

    What conditions am I looking forward to that you have concluded are “yet of this earth”? The only condition I look forward to is the destruction eternally of EVIL! That does not come until after the 1,000 years of Christ here on earth. It is in the Bible….Revelations. I have posted before that my fondest desire is that God’s Will be done…. forever, everywhere….even if I have no part in it. It is not about me, or any reward that I could receive…..but is all about God’s Perfection being applied everywhere.

  77. Claudia…
    Would that your definition of ‘liberal & conservative’ were fixed perm. in stone commanded by God, what you think are political positions are seldom true to begin, hopefully instead seeking the Kingdom of God as commanded our true purpose and goal.

    Consider the foolish ‘political platforms’ these two once placed before us, have you noticed they no longer bother furnishing such, platform-promises never truly followed after election. Consider that decades upon decades as the ‘liberal, such as liberal Pres-Obama today, carrying on the same policies of literally decades as done also under the ‘conservative’ Bush.

    You mention the 1000-year rule after the ‘Return of the Lord’, your English Bible says nothing about a ‘Millennium’ nor a 1000-year rule over others, the actual word used is Chilioi that most scholars agree instead of the substituted Chilias. Click on my name for a study that may well surprise you in this apparent false teaching, a hold over from the mystic (not Tanakh/Torah) Jewish teaching. This millennium was from Latin translation in 382AD called for by Pope Damasas, also when the Rapturo began and brought about much confusion.

    We not ‘label’ ourselves in political motive, or in the Bible is found such need of labels, there are many man made words today instead used found nowhere in the Bible, such as ‘future illennium’ time to ruling over others, after the Lord returns (not to bear sin again). If I were to ask you for scripture support of this long held teaching error, you would be hard put to provide any that would stand full Bible validation.

    Now to provide answer to your question about what (god) I worship, in the mid-part of life I came to hear the true Word of God, finding myself a sinner, realizing in repentance that Christ the Savior died for my sin, believing the Lord and His Word, I sought and received the Lord Jesus Christ as my Lrd and Savior. Since that time seeking and searching His will and purpose in my life, found that my work and gift is as I do. Regarding this, the following two verse have ever since directed me, ‘have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them’, and ‘I am sending you out as sheep among wolves. Therefore ne as shrewd/wise as the snake/serpent, and as innocent as doves’… ever seen a dove when it’s chicks were endangered?

    You believe in wars setting people free… spiritual wars with real weapons. America or perhaps the Shadow Gov have been involved in one secular “evil war” after another, this is easily documented for the past 100-years and more.

    It sometimes appears that the secular citizens of this nation have more discernment than most claiming to be Christian. My finding is need that finds valid documentation with very little ability or effort on my part, yet after many years and long hours can truthfully say, much that you see is not as it is, nor what you hear, as it is taught.

  78. Claudia…
    I was corrected once concerning this Latin ‘millennium’, in that it is Revelation (singular) and not Revelations (plural). This was corrected as needed in my study article on this “Millennium.” Again click on my name and try read the entire study.

    The prophet Isa 14:12-15 tells us Satan was cast out of heaven directly into the grave (Sheol), in the deepest pit (abyss). In Revelation chapter-20 describes (two) Latin millennium (Greek Chilioi). Note that Satan is cast out of heaven once only, and Rev-20 says about the Return of Christ, nothing about a 1000-year reign (after the millenniun… but does say Satan is released ending this composite-event millennium).

    In Revelation chapter-20 the first “Thousands Years” (event) is the above Satan in the abyss, followed chronologically later with the second “Thousands Years” (event) when Christ begins the “first resurrection of saint that reign with Christ and do not see the second death” (by the way including yourself as a saint yet living nd having HS as guarantee).

  79. When I read Andrew Strom’s post of sadness and concern for the Western Chruch, and Martin’s agreement of same I feel their sadness….and I see a picture of a large and very old tree that was once beautiful and supported life in it’s branches with many leaves.

    As with all things on this cursed earth which is no longer perfect as God willed it,… due to rebellion, this tree too with time was infected with the curse, and with man’s attempts to apply artificial fertilizers to it’s roots. The leaves began to fall with age, disease, and storms, and polluted rains and streams. The smog from the cities slowly kills the new leaves it produces in an attempt to live. It becomes barren and stripped of its leaves, its old branches cracking in the winds…..seemingly ripe for the dragon to burn.

    That is sad….but one thing about an old dying tree….it is not unusual that before it’s death there will be one last effort to bring forth seeds. Like my old Mulberry tree…over 100 years old. This year it was covered with berries….tremendous amount….as was the Old Red Bud tree…covered with as many seed pods as it had leaves. Those seeds will fall to earth, waiting there, even as that tree dies. Those seeds will flourish in the right conditions of tribulation…the soil being turned over and tossed.

    Those are the seeds that God will grow into little trees with His pure Word of Self Sacrifice and Jesus Christ. These little trees will be everywhere upon the earth…and they will be guided by the Holy Spirit who is Perfect….Who knows exactly what is needed during the tribulation times to help those that God wants to bring to Him. The Holy Spirit which is so much wiser than a man with the best of intentions.

    These little trees will not be deceived by the World structured church of the false prophet that supports the antichrist. They and all who come to them will unite into the One Body Church of Jesus Christ that lives forever and will never die. They will be small little trees in the forest…overlooked by the dragon as having no worth or value or purpose. And that will be one of the ways that God provides for them…so that they can go about their work….meekly and without importance and prominence…not seeking any glory or fame other than to connect people with Jesus Christ before He returns (in less than 12 years).

    Would you want the old tree to continue…..never to be replaced by the one in God’s Kingdom which is PURE? Is it the tree that was or is important, or the message that leads to Christ…and the Eternal Tree of Life?

    God knows what He is doing… can have hope in God. He knows how many tares are among the crop, and how many are yet to be harvested into His barn. He will provide…..look towards Him and not towards the efforts of Man, or the ways of man. God can and will accomplish exactly what He Will.

    Do not mourn for the past but look forward to His Act. He is not dependent on man, but man is dependent upon Him.

    Each Christian is one of those seeds, and as others gather with them, God will sort their talents for His good for all of them. These seeds will not seek their own glory, but the glory of bringing others to Christ….and they will do this, not of themselves but Christ through them……they will be willing to lose their earthly life to accomplish the mission that Christ gives them.

    Christ is not willing to lose any that have been given to Him….and only God knows which ones are given to Him….and which ones are given to the dragon.

    What man views as a disaster with our limited understandings may very well be a blessing orchestrated by God.

    The very worst things that have happened to me (through no fault of my own) I grew to understanding and a point of total praise for God for allowing them to happen…because He knew what He was doing…and what He has planned for me. Those things that I caused, I also learned from, and acknowleged accountability, and repentence for my actions, and thanked Him for saving me from myself….and directing me out of the grey areas back into the Light. I guess what i am trying to say….is that we don’t always understand His Plan from where we are currently standing and the view that we have.

    God Bless you both, Andrew and Martin, and All on this forum who Desire God’s Will, and are saddened at the waste you see. Your hearts are in the right place.

  80. Claudia…
    I am not really charging Christians with misquoting scripture (Bible), Christians have been subject to false teaching and prophecy for so long, I also openly admit being misled and quoting such error misleading others. This also was a strong lesson of need, to expose false teaching and prophecy flooding the church today.

    What saddens me considerably is many will not even try to validate some of this teaching through the Bible, nor warning about false teaching. It is almost like this is the Rebellious Generation, when most prefer to believe a lie.

    Those misled my belief God will help, those deliberately misleading, instead will discover why Gods Wrath will make ‘suffering day and night’ (during) this earth age, seem like a party… until their suffering during this earth age ‘rises as smoke’ for eternity.

  81. I believe in the last days the largest and greatest church in America,will be the false church (anti-Christ), and the true Christian church (remnant) will come under condemnation… as is already showing strong signs at this very minute

  82. Teshuva Jun 16th 2012

    Can you please share your understanding of the wrath?
    Thank you.

  83. Teshuva…
    This has specifically (Gods Wrath) not been one of my Bible studies, I shudder to even think of it.

    My opinion, it will be different for those that (build up wrath for themselves) in this life time. I have heard people tell of their entire life within minutes flashed before them… during a calamity. Can you imagine the 70th Week Prophecy implying about three years of these Wrath (minutes) wishing but unable to die.

    I will not try to describe such condition. Yet I also know the suffering day and night (during) this earth age ends,Gen 8:22 does not say day and night continues forever, instead lasting as long as this earth endures. I also know this heaven & earth as old order is destroyed, in condition compared to the time of creation, never seen before, and never seen again. The new promise is there is no more night, and God makes sun, moon, or lamp un-necessary, giving His people light… no wonder it says we can’t imagine what is to come.

  84. The DAY of the Lord is 1,000 years.

    2nd Peter 3:8=But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    I have to assume that His Day that He Rules on earth will be 1,000 years of our time. It is defined in the Bible. Read in Isaiah, Zechariah, Malachi, 1 Corinthians 1:8, 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, regarding the Day of the Lord…it is not one little day. It is speaking of when He is ruling here upon earth…but a long period….THE DAY.

    Yes…the dragon was cast out of Heaven and onto the path that eventually ended in the grave/pit for 1,000 years, and than into the eternal fires forever. On the way there tho he wound up on earth during the antichrist period, having but a short time…remember that verse? Read Chapter 19 of Revelations…which ends with the antichrist and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire at the end of the Wrath Period on Earth, and Chapter 20 starts with the dragon being bound at this same time….at the beginning of the 1,000 Years of the DAY OF THE LORD. (If he was being bound again to be let loose again…he could not very well have been in the hell yet….but in a holding place.

    Rev.20: 1-3=And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    Rev. 20:5=But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Sure sounds like there is a 1,000 year period for the Day of the Lord, wherein at the end the dragon is once more unbound from the pit, to separate tares…and than at the end of the 1,000 years after the last hour of testing comes Rev. 20: 10 below.

    Rev. 20: 10=And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    From this point onward there is no mention of another 1,000 years. From this point onward the Great White Throne of Judgement discends and the last judgement begins. (Rev.20:11)

    Rev. 20:14-15=And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Same place satan was cast earlier!)

    Revelation Chapter 21 starts into the New Heaven and New Earth…different time zone than our current one…this time zone is eternal….and this is the New Earth where the New Jerusulem, the Bride of Christ descends down to. It is FOREVER….not just for another 1,000 years. From this point onward life is eternal….Tree of Life is restored to the New Earth in the New Heaven…..(and new time zone for earth.) Our Restoration is complete….ALL EVIL has been destroyed, all are in the Will of the Father, and there is no more suffering of any of God’s creatures upon this earth. No more death….the 2nd Death took care of that once and for all.

    Rev. 21: 6-7=And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    All the scriptures have to be put together for understanding….and man’s definitions of what the words are referring to are based on man’s limited understandings.

    We both are of the race of man. (Note: I include myself….so my understanding is not perfect either….so don’t assume I think mine is…please!)

    Also, are you aware that Cain’s ancestors worked their way into the temple as scribes at one point in the Torah’s history? So much for the reliability of the word….without the Holy Spirit. That is why Christ gave us the Holy Spirit.

    You give me alot of words….scholarly and wise…(but still susceptible to interpretation of meaning)….but you don’t answer my questions in the format that they were given. Without those answers….we drift from correcting errors into other waters. Those questions are key to what i was trying to express, and to what I was trying to understand regarding the words you posted.

    Would you place upon yourself a label of “Democrat” if that label was of the party that supported legal killing of babies? These are the actions that proclaim which god we worship. As a Christian, should I not share God’s word for fear it would offend another? (Yes…I could add thousands of words concerning love and grace also.) Would you place upon yourself a label of athiest and join the athiest party? How about the label….Gay Pride? Labels do mean something. Some are more obvious than others. We need to search them out before applying them to our life.

    I am acquainted with all of the distortions that man has put upon the Words in the Bible, and very aware of the organized power structure of those who sought to control with the power of the church and their falsness that crept into the understandings of the Bible. I appreciate that you think I am ignorant of those things, and that I should stand upon the words written by man instead of the One who guides me….but I cannot do that.

    If that is what you think. I am also aware that our written words are often read very fast, and not understood as it was meant to be by the reader, understanding often colored by the reader’s prejudices, or assumptions. I have been guilty of that.

    Again…I asked questions that will clarify this discourse if you will answer them. I don’t really care if you don’t….I respect your privacy and I don’t want to pollute this forum with a personal discussion out of respect for others. But…I, personally, don’t want to lead anyone to think they can wear or proclaim a label that contains content that is not acceptable to God. It is our actions…not the words that come from our mouths that proclaim our standing….and we should, as many have said on this list…be constantly examining ourselves and our doings to see if they are aligned with God.

    Neither of us are capable of knowing the other or even what gifts we may have as defined by God. We are just infallible humans…I can live with that!

    I do know tho, and I apologize for ending this conversation, my part of it anyway, because you take my words (check them out…they are all above) and you distort them back to me. I never said what you quoted below: There is a big difference in meaning between the what I said and what you quoted me as saying.

    “You believe in wars setting people free…”

    I said : ” I am for wars that are fought to protect the innocent and destroy evil.

    I guess you put the “setting people free” in there because I am an American. You bring too much to my statements that are in your mind and not mine. That being understood….it would be foolish if I continued….we speak a different language….that is colored by one’s assumptions of the other…instead of what they actually wrote.

    I apologize if you were offended or took what I posted as a personal afront to your self, as apposed to being a defense of the little that I understand of God’s Word.

    Martin….your words are wise as usual….but they are also my words…I do see what has happened elsewhere and here, I think my posts clearly show that. I do however think that as a citizen of a country we do have to render to Ceaser what is Ceazer’s, and assume also the responsibility to vote as best we can if that party does not have a written acknowledged platform clearly spelled out that does not violate God’s commandments, and teachings. Once the party adopts anything in writting or in their words that is against God’s Will….we have to avoid that party. The dragon would have us not vote….so that any that he wishes to rule will be able to. It is that very lack of participation in the last election that gave him the election. God watches us.

    We cannot judge the party by what goes on underground in the dark…I have also posted about that…I am aware that the globalist are working in the dark as I said before…they are a tool of the dragon. I am also aware that my God has already WORKED in the Light and has plans of His own!!! ;-)

    I do so hope that because we stand for God and His rules that it is understood that we are all sinners and do not think of ourselves as Saints. I have broken all the commandments of God in my youth…and in my mind. I only have value borrowed from Christ, not of my self or my “works”. I am worthless on my own and daily am greatful that He has put His collar on my neck….checking me in when necessary. That is why it is so important that we try to align the laws of our nations to match the laws of God. So many young folks are deceived when the nation says a thing is legal. In God’s Kingdom….there will be no conflicting laws to deceive those within His Kingdom….of 1,000 Years of Perfect Rule and Teaching.

  85. DeWayne…we are certainly in agreement about those who are deliberately misleading the flock. I know that you are not doing that, and I know that I also am not doing that. We are speaking of our understandings….and I have readily admitted at all times that these are my understandings…..and I am still of the race of man with limited understanding.

    That is why we all need to have the Holy Spirit…because if our hearts desire God….He will be faithful and lead us to the Truth. He has never let me down and continues to keep His hand on the leash that is attached to His collar upon my neck. I am priveleged to wear it.

  86. DeWayne….you are confusing me again. You posted:
    I believe in the last days the largest and greatest church in America,will be the false church (anti-Christ), and the true Christian church (remnant) will come under condemnation… as is already showing strong signs at this very minute


    What church in America, the largest church in America, as you said…. has such worldly influence all around the earth?

    I can think of one church that fits such a huge world influence….and it is based in Italy, Rome.

    I can think of another faith that has many followers world wide and great influence in the world now….and that one is based in the Middle East….the Muslim Church….if one would call it that.

    Why would you skip over those two and jump once again to America. We are a destitute people, as are those in most nations, that desparately need to cover themselves with ashes and repent and turn back to the Lord….. but none of our churches have that great of an influence….and will probably never have.

    Please help me understand the path that led you to this conclusion. I am totally intrigued.

  87. Andrew Jun 16th 2012

    DeWayne and others – Please do not make this thread about “End Times” theories and the like. That is way too far Off Topic.



  88. Martin…your post on the “place of no repentence”….sparks interest.

    Esau….what is he known for….selling his birthright for a stew of little value?

    Judas Iscariot….what is he known for…..selling out, and betraying the location of Jesus in the garden….for a few coins of little value.

    Did they earn their place of no repentance by their actions? Or because they did not repent? The place of no repentance could mean one can not repent and deliver themselves from that place….truly. I know that to trespass against the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin. Does it have anything to do with that?

    I am leaning more toward the action….because Esau did not eventually harm Jacob when they met later on…Esau helped his brother…and wept upon their reunion. I am thinking that Judas also greatly regretted and repented of his action also.

    Mathew 12:32=And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    (Is this because it is the Holy Spirit which leads us to repentence if we are truly seeking the Way of God? If one speaks against the Holy Spirit…could it be that the Holy Spirit can no longer assist that person…and they are in a place of no repentence? Having put themselves in front of the Holy Spirit?)

    And for sure….if we don’t repent our daily transgressions we do not inherit our birthright under and through Jesus Christ…..where we are finally called His Son.

    Rev.21:7=He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    That is one of the reasons that Jesus gave us the perfect prayer as to what we should be praying for, desireing, and how we are to examin our hearts.

    “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” That is the sentence of self examination to the best of our abilities. It requires us to consider how we may have put ourselves over others and caused them harm, and to examine the wrongs that we feel have been done to us….and whether they are valid…but nevertheless….we are to forgive those wrongs done to us, not holding them between that person and their journey towards God.

    What scripture speaks of this place of no repentence for these two….Esau and Judas? I would like to study it.

  89. Brother John Jun 16th 2012

    To Martin
    Yes I am referring to Lincoln.
    Tonight, Prayer For Israel has a meeting at the Baptist Church.
    Because of the division in the main stream churches on Israel, it will be interesting whether the meeting will be supported.
    Also the only religious group prepared to come out from the four walls of their buildings is the Plymouth Brethren who preach their version of Good News in the centre of Lincoln each Friday. The rest of the churches have not been seen preaching in the centre since the late 1980s. They are too afraid of the repercussions and have nothing to offer only the expectation of people going to church to hear anything.
    The thread of discussion on the topic in question is Depression rather than recession.
    As already brethren have shared about the western church, it has gone bad to worst. Due to this, it is my opinion that christian church has become spiritually poverty stricken losing its direction.
    Well, the Body of Christ is prepared for what has been prophesied in the Bible and are taking heed of His word. They are going YE without being diverted and are following Him.

  90. The millennium as a post rapture 1000 year reign of Christ with Redeemed Christians as overlords is the strangest of all church doctrines and doesn’t even pass the common sense test. Why would any one even want a part in it. When I die, the last thing I would want is to return to the Earth and Shepherd the unsaved who as it turns out, might be dumb enough to still reject Christ. Thanks, but no thanks. Seems like more sorrow and tears to me. I can only view it as a congruent spiritual period overlaying a portion or all of the period of the gentiles. When Christ returns, the Earth is consumed in fire and even the elements are burned up. The end.

    I go back to this, not to trouble anyone’s doctrine but to say, as this world passes away and economies falter one might find themselves a boat and do a little fishing. We only know in part that which we think we know. Today has enough troubles of it’s own. As for my self, I go to a sizable church that loves and serves Christ and seeks to draw closer and shows it’s faith not only in loving Christ but in good works also. I have many friends and family throughout the US who are drawing nearer to Christ, regardless of political affiliation, and I find daily, the opportunities to witness, bless and be blessed.

    Galilee is a place within the heart and within these troubled days where Jesus Christ walks and encourages His own and reminds us that His heart is still the same. He seeks the lost, the sick, the unrighteous and the hurting. And as far as hurtful words, judgment and sin in general. “We do the same things”, and yet He loves us.

    It is for freedom that we have been set free.

    His eternal kingdom is in my heart and my departure is but a beat away. This is Grace.

    God bless you all.

  91. DeWayne Jun 17th 2012

    Sorry, but your ministry does seem to be taking on a new direction, almost (like) a clearing house of truth.

    About the economy, it is difficult to know the truth of this matter, except that those involved appear to be in control and using it as a stick stiring the pot of humanity.

    If the economy were the only dire effect, it would seem that something might result ending their work, yet this bent nature has cause a cascade of events, economic, ecologic, and social/political, that feed upon and increase all of three calamities.

    Sounds a lot like diverse earth quakes, wars, and social calamities that I’ve read about somewhere.

    Claudia… (as) a thousand.

  92. DeWayne Jun 17th 2012

    We have to espect Andrews wish, and decist from this diversion from topic.

  93. I have indeed done that, regarding the end times topic.

    Would still like to know your response to what other labels Christians should avoid…… if those labels contain within them, doctrines which go against the Commandments and Will of God?

    I think applying these labels to ourselves, and removing them if we have….are part of the process of refining ourselves as we walk with God.

  94. Martin Jun 17th 2012

    Please, my dear sister Claudia, do this at a more appropriate time.

    Andrew is webmaster here, and we must all respect his wishes; all of us are under his discipline when using this forum.

    Let us all be thankful it is here for us to use.

  95. Andrew Jun 17th 2012

    BTW- The “Millenium” is not a “stupid” concept as some on here have claimed.

    Thanks for that.

    End of discussion of “end times” theories, please.


  96. Martin Jun 17th 2012


  97. Martin Jun 17th 2012

    Yes, Brother John, we’re actually experiencing depression in our economies. It’s the ‘D’ word politicians avoid if they can, but the figures released show depression to be the case, in my opinion.

    It’s very difficult to be super spiritual when you’re broke!

    In the financially good times we can all say, well Praise the Lord, He’s blessing me every day with more and more. But when the blessing is a withdrawal of material comforts, a withdrawal from a life style which gives us a social credibility and seemingly a gospel of prosperity to preach and live, then it’s difficult to see that as a blessing at the time. But it is in reality a release from the bonds we’ve placed upon ourselves.

    We’re not in that position of extremely severe straightening of our finances. Not that we’re immune, far from it, but our life style has always tended towards the frugal; careful management of what we have and no lavish spending on unnecessary luxuries. What has occurred here, is a very significant reduction in income which we’ve accommodated by further tightening and reductions in spending.

    It has meant preparations in our home for older age and infirmity have been slowed; we’re growing yet more of our own food, reduced our miles travelled and yes, look for deals in shops and the cheap food counter for what we can’t grow. Instead of subsidising family we’re expecting them to live within their means, as we do. Not a bad lesson in life for a generation brought up on endless cheap credit.

    For us it is a time of release; of being freed from obligations we’d assumed unnecessarily and the ‘me’ element of life has been put to the background. Necessary, has become a watch word.

    Spiritually, as others have testified before me, it is a good time, becoming a rich time. It is a time of blessing, but not blessing ourselves.

  98. Will this “purging” bring down the materialism and selfishness that
    have reigned for too long? Not unless we become the messengers of the promise and announce that the finger of Yahweh God is at work in all these things. Then and only then, will the next disaster wake the sleeping church. But if they only know the counterfeit gospel of love and goodwill to all men, then disaster will bring shock, confusion, hopelessness and a falling away of faith. They will say – “where is God? How could He allow this? It’s clear he doesn’t care or doesn’t exist.” They will abandon their faith because they never knew about the Day of Judgment and the glory of the Kingdom to follow. They thought they were already living in the kingdom (according to their preachers) and their misconceptions of Yahweh God and the bible simply don’t match up with their real world of experience. Instead of refining them the disasters will simply crush them. The world has experienced many disastrous wars, famines, epidemics, earthquakes and tsunamis. Did any of these bring change of heart and revival? No, because there was no prophetic word, no advanced warning from Yahweh God. The warning MUST precede the disaster or else it is NOT prophetic.

    All the great disasters of the past centuries and more hardly brought about much spiritual awakening, and nor will the next, except if we can help to make this big difference: We must speak the prophetic words of God in advance in the churches and in all the towns of Israel so that when disaster strikes they will know that a prophet has been in their midst. Then they will know that God exists, that His name is Yahweh, that His word through the bible and his prophets matches up with their real world of experience, and that He is in control even in the midst of disaster. He has a perfect plan to gather them and perfect them and they should learn this.

    If there’s no prophetic word, no warning, no preparation for what is to come, then we will only have one disaster after another with no change of heart, no spiritual awakening, no Kingdom of YHWH and no glory. That’s how it has been with the people of Israel and the Jews for centuries and centuries – only disaster after disaster. And the tragedy of this situation is that we all share with them in the disasters and our hope of seeing the Kingdom come in glory will be dashed – again. Notice how the prophets shared in the disasters of the people and nations they were sent to – except Jonah? He gave the timely warning, they repented and that made the difference.
    For Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Amos, Daniel, there was no repentance, no spiritual awakening, nor kingdom. Are we going to be in a similar situation again? We could be if we do not take this matter seriously. We cannot give or create repentance, but we can bring the good news and warning that produces repentance when disaster strikes. Without the good news and warning before disaster strikes there will be no revival.

    If you feel called to become a messenger of the promise and not sure how to live out you calling, please contact me at +64274038561 or [email protected]

  99. Brother John Jun 17th 2012

    There has been no other discussion group as far as I am aware of on topics which Andrew has raised.
    Glad to take part and hope it will remain that way. Praise the Lord!
    Now this is for Martin whose comments I agree with.
    I mentioned earlier about Lincoln and the meeting organised by Prayer for Israel.
    A sister in the Lord came from the London area to attend and brought with her christians friends whom she stayed with from Boston.
    Only a total of 12 christians came for that day of teaching and prayer. That is how many christian churches in Lincoln and Lincolnshire treat the nation of Israel and the Jews – not that important!
    Having said this, she heard about a charismatic church in Skegness which was supposingly to be on “fire for the Lord.” The church had taken over the pentecostal scene at this coastal resort. It turned out to be another New Life church coming under the umbrella of “restorationism” and part of the New Life network system whose mother church is in Lincoln.
    She and her friends this morning were going to the morning church service at New Life, Skegness.
    They were prompted by the Lord in not going and were led to go to another church instead. This happened this morning which the sister shared with me on the telephone.
    Obey the Lord and not man!

  100. Martin Jun 17th 2012

    Brother John, yes, I’m familiar with Lincoln and it’s ecclesiastical troubles. Through a close friend, a genuine man of God who was also a Canon, I followed the events of the nineties from inside, so to speak. Also, the offending Dean came to my attention when he was appointed as a trustee to a charity my wife was involved with. It was all downhill from there and my wife resigned.

    Anti semitism in Lincoln, in common with most other cathedral cities, is notorious. Ending in 2000 I was very actively involved in Christian Zionism for a Jerusalem based organisation, part of which was helping Russian Jews make alliyah. It was a hard lesson to me, but our major cities were solidly anti semitic. A hall could be booked and advertising put out, but getting anyone in was another matter.

    A New Life pastor in Lincoln, better not name names here, gave me very short shrift a few years ago when I queried a couple of very dubious doctrines on his online church website. Not the nicest of people.

    If I were ever to be asked for a last word of advice to Christians before I die it would be as you’ve written: Obey the Lord and not man!

    Michael, I’ll contact you off list.


  101. Ibelieve Jun 17th 2012

    ……………………….It’s very difficult to be super spiritual when you’re broke!………………………………….

    Good comments here on depression/recession and materialism.

    In our area in the Midwest its still in the recession stage. The American dollar does not go as far, with groceries and gas being high and constantly increasing.

    Sad to hear about all the Anti-Semitism. I have always thought the only thing holding America together at this time is the fact we are willing to help Israel.

    When are government turns its back on the nation of Israel, I think we will see the total collapse of our economy take place shortly after that time.

  102. Martin Jun 17th 2012

    I Believe, yes so very much turns on our national, and personal, attitude to Israel, and the Jewish people.

    If the words of the Lord God in Gen 12:3 are enough evidence, there’s plenty more in history. We may date the great expansion of English trade and prosperity to the time Oliver Cromwell invited back the then expelled Jews to England in 1600 and something.

    I’m sure much of our prosperity of the nineteenth century was granted us because we were welcoming of the Jewish people, and also, through that wealth power and influence would could take the torch of the Gospel to the world.

    It’s also a little curious that, in 1904, our government reneged on the Balfour Agreement, favouring the establishment of a Jewish homeland, and very few years later we were in Depression. Also, when we failed to support Israel in the United Nations in 1947 for the establishment of a Jewish State, our colonies melted away to independence, thereby taking much of the UK wealth with them.

    I sincerely believe you’re right in saying when the USA turns it’s back on Israel economic collapse is but a step away.

    The Gentile church, the ecclesiastical system, has singularly failed to recognise the importance of the Jews to the world, perhaps because so long ago it drifted from the Bible to it’s own writings. The Church of England in particular has an abysmal record of dealings with the Jewish people. Little wonder that it’s rapid decline has been so deep and so public, especially when they have moved so far from the Reformation base document, the Bible, and systematically worked against the interests of Jewish people.

    I’ve written enough about anti semitism on an economic thread. Suffice to say anti semitism has it’s roots in the Pit; that should tell us all we need to know.

  103. Martin, I Believe, Bro. John…Amen, Amen and Amen! Hate is a no-no for Christians in God’s Universe. That is what causes so many wars. Revenge runs supreme. To hate a nation, you’re admiting that you hate It’s entire people! How heinous a crime!

    I loved what you said “It’s very difficult to be super spiritual when you’re broke!”……That hit my funny bones, ‘I Believe’. I had asked God the same thing many years ago. I loved to mix it up with God back in those days, when I was stupid and a ‘know it all’.

    One very important lesson I learned was: You can only live in God’s permissive Will for so long…Sooner or later you’re going to learn He is immediately responsive when you pray ‘His Will Be Done’. You can pray all day, all night till the cows come home, but only when you pray His Will does a prayer get answered. OH yes, He’ll gladly tell you why it’s not answered, if you really want to know.
    He had to turn me in an opposite direction before I saw my pitious thinking that pleagued my self guided path. That included my “name it and claim it” trap I was entering into. I’d rather be broke than be there. Thank you father. Amen!

  104. Ibelieve Jun 18th 2012

    “Its difficult to be super spiritual when you’re broke”.

    I like that statement as well, so I was giving it as a quote.

    I was copying Martins comment so it originated with him. That whole comment he made above with that statement in it was good.

    Lord Bless,

  105. Craig said: “When I die, the last thing I would want is to return to the Earth and Shepherd the unsaved who as it turns out, might be dumb enough to still reject Christ. Thanks, but no thanks. Seems like more sorrow and tears to me.”

    I am eternally greatful that Jesus Christ did not share your desires, and was willing to return to earth as God’s Son, knowing before hand that He would be rejected….but willing to experience the sorrow and tears of that rejection… order that He could become your and all of our Shepard.

  106. DeWayne Jun 18th 2012

    About the Lords ministry on earth called by some the first advent, the word says, John 9:39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.” Praise God whose HS makes possible spiritual discernment from His word we call the Bible.

    About the return of the Lord or then a second advent, the word says, Hebrew 9:26-28 “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

    About what occurs at this return or day of the Lord, the word says, Rev 20:11-15 “Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    As Craig said, I also know of no teaching about the return by man called saint to this old order of present heaven and earth, destroyed as described when no place s found for them. Where also as punishment all wicked are thrown into the Lake of Fire, ending their suffering day and night during this earth age, now after judgment describing this suffering day and night, as smoke rising for eternity and as punishment.

    About the new creation’s foretold in Isa 65:17-18 “Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy.” This ew Jerusalem we are told comes down (or is revealed) out of heaven (Rev 21:2).

    Today our economy is much like the one mention of Jabez in the OT, a wealthy man praying for more wealth, and important which God answered. Jabez apparently informed about wealth during this earth age, then prayes not to suffer because of this added wealth.

  107. DeWayne Jun 18th 2012

    Hate as Judgment is taught in the NT as both carnal (perhaps immature), and of an obedient servant (mature).

    Hate and judgment may also be mistaken as concerning Final Judgment, where only God has power and authority to destroy.

    About the wicked deed and acts of man, as concerning the faithful and obedient, Rev 2:6 “But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.”

    About this ‘practice’ certainly we must attain (spiritual) maturity in the Lord, for He commands in, 1 Cor 2:15-16 “The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?”

    Then there is binding the strong man and prayer, perhaps as Paul directed putting out the man from amongst them… and on and on it goes.

    So what does this mean concerning our economic calamity today, and discernment about those involved. Is this instructing to vote for the ‘lesser of two evils’, and what is meant by binding the strong man?

  108. Andrew Jun 18th 2012


    I thought this discussion was not continuing in this direction?


  109. Martin Jun 18th 2012

    I tend towards a sceptical view when people claim prophecy is being fulfilled, or this is the next great move of the Holy Spirit or whatever … probably comes from being burned in churches and having my feet firmly planted on the ground as a farm worker.

    But at this time, this sceptical soul is quite clear.

    This end time prophecy, written two thousand years ago, IS BEING FULFILLED in our times.

    The fact is, however, our countries try to fight off the inevitable financial crash, it is going to happen, and my best guess is later this year. It is going to crash, or be crashed. At that point I believe the strong man now waiting in the wings, will emerge as the leader of a one world government.

    I’m not a student of prophecy in particular, but I see no other end scenario in the Bible to which we may look for hope. Time has run out.

    What follows this crash and the advent of the strong man? Mayhem, and worse for Christians.

    Despite my rather tongue in cheek comment above, we are going to need to be very spiritual when we’re broke, because broke is likely to be our place of residence.

  110. We don’t have to be very spiritual to survive anything what we need is to be dependent on our heavenly Father to supply our needs. Many souls are lost because at the root of everything lies a desire to that we need everything, rather what the scriptures teach is to have one treasure Jesus Christ at the lose of all other treasures. Where in the Bible does it says Christians are going to have riches and fame? The opposite is true Christians will have pain and suffering, so that in the end purified by the word of God can see Christ face to face. We are to hope in Christ not in what we expect Christ to do. This is a hard thing to explain in a land of plenty life is not about what we have but who has us. This is the secret to victory

  111. zeal4thyhouse Jun 18th 2012

    Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
    Luk 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
    Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
    Luk 6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

    Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

  112. I live in a society where man’s pride is placed on what he knows, accumulated knowledge, accumulated wisdom. For
    the christian it is all about how God see things, God’s wisdom, God’s knowledge. God says that in comparison to Him our knowledge is foolishness. How much better to place our pride in Christ than in what we know or assume to know about tomorrow? When we are absolutely sure about tomorrow, have we not placed our pride in what we know that in God who holds tomorrow?
    How often have we misunderstood what God has meant in this verse or that how often do we do the same things with prophecy? It is our own smartness that gets us into so much trouble. Dependency upon God requires that I acknowledge God knows more than I do, that His ways are better than mine, that what he understands is not what I understand. and He has the perfect view of my situation therefore His judgement of it is correct.

  113. Yes, Simon, the poor and the suffering who first and foremost seek Christ as their way out, instead of first choosing and striving to acquire wordly success to ease that pain and suffering are those who pass the test that was put upon this world by the dragon. He offered Christ the entire world….when Christ had imposed upon Himself a 40 day fast in the Wilderness…..and Christ chose not that gain offerred by the dragon….but chose the Will of His Father….as should we all.

    If it is God’s CHOICE to bless someone, or to bless a nation, than that person or that nation should use that blessing of wealth to serve others….to “feed and protect God’s people”…all of God’s people that come into their awareness….not just those within their own circle. When the one who was blessed turns towards self interest a much greater promise is lost. God made it very clear, that the rulers were to serve the people, not use them for the rulers gain and power.

    In the Garden….where all our needs were met….simple needs….not chariots of gold, or mansions of gold as some look forward to in heaven (a place of rest, only because we no longer get tired…there are many Works to be done for God in Heaven…He is Eternal and never stops growing!)….we would have developed those true treasures that God wanted for us…the treasures that lay within God’s nature, and within us if we have the Holy Spirit….a seed that is to grow as God Will’s it. There was no pain and suffering in the Garden….man brought the pain and suffering into the world….and now that which was in the world had to be ENDURED!

    After the Garden, God meant for man to live a simple life, a rural life of small communities of those who honor God and want His Will….relying on God and the fellowship within the community of Believers……a type of life that can foster the seed that lies within us that points towards God and His Nature. A Seed that will bloom into total fellowship with God one day. Man as a whole wanted greater things that glorified the self ego….and rejected that life for the life of the cities which offerred an abundance of the gold that spoils. A life that can smother that Seed of God and wither it beyond repair.

    I believe that we should take what God offers us of His treasures and use them for the benefit of all His people. We should not distain wealth if it comes our way, but use it for good, most all of it, except what one needs to live humbly and sustain that which God gave….multiply it for the use of God’s Kingdom….especially since soon it will all be gone….unless you pledge worship to the system coming.

    No…I am not wealthy…this is not about me…..and is not a justification of wealth. I am saying that wealth should not be avoided if God is offering it for you to use for His Kingdom. Remember the man who buried the coin that he was given by God….not using it? My God is a God of Harmony and Balance. It is man who goes to extremes with their limited understandings.

    Man glorifies his condition. If he is poor he holds it as a badge that he is greater in God’s sight. If he is rich he holds it as a badge that he is greater than all those who are poorer than he. Breaking the last Commandment…THO SHALL NOT COVET. Neither are correct. The poor of spirit who do not turn away from God are magnified because they endure until the end and retained trust in God….despite their circumstances….Enduring to the End….the Greatest of Blessings.

    We need to stay in God’s Will wherever it places us….continue to learn of Him and express Him…serve Him, and be willing to go where It next moves….for the growing of our Soul….and for the purposes that only God knows.

    Here is perhaps the meaning in the verses of Luke.

    Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor IN SPIRIT (EGO=SELF WILL): for yours is the kingdom of God.

    Luk 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger FOR GOD’S WILL now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now FOR GOD’S WILL: for ye shall laugh..REJOICE WHEN IT IS ESTABLISHED.

    Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich AND CONTENT WITH YOUR OWN WILL! for ye have received your consolation WHICH DOES NOT LAST.

    Luk 6:25 Woe unto you that are full, CONTENT WITH THE WORLD! for ye shall hunger WHEN ALL YOU DESIRED IS LOST. Woe unto you that laugh now AT THOSE YOU CONSIDER INFERIOR FOR THEIR BELIEVES! for ye shall mourn and weep WHEN THE TIME OF THE LORD COMES.

    Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world RICH IN FAITH, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised TO THOSE THAT LOVE HIM?

    RICH IN FAITH and THOSE THAT LOVE HIM…..that is what all those verses hinge on….not on being poor in money…but in being POOR IN SPIRIT (HUMBLE, NOT LOOKING TOWARDS SELF)altho maintainging ones FAITH while poor in money is a BRIGHT BURNING LIGHT in God’s eye…..because if you can do that your LOVE FOR HIM is real…and not dependent upon how you feel He is blessing you. Another reason that the financial system is collapsing… sift out the chaf from the wheat….those who truly love God for what He IS, not for what He allows them to have here on earth.

    The KEY as you all know, is that when we are poor in money and maintain our FAITH it is so much easier to look towards God as our provider, and to have TRUST in His provision, whether for this World or for Life Eternal.

    When you LOVE someone…..what do you want to do? Do you remember your first love? You followed the one you loved, you wanted to do his will, you set aside yourself for that one you loved. That first love fullfilled all your needs…was your world. What a blessing if that first love was for Christ….or that your first Love was for a Godly person.

    God did not choose the poor in this world….but the poor who were RICH IN FAITH. There are many poor in the world now, but many more to come, with weeping and despair…. that would eat another human in order to stay alive. Those are the poor without any touch of RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Even those Christians who are administrating their wealth today and in the future to help God’s Kingdom will have great pain and suffering of their spirit….when they look at what man has done to this world and they know that all the wealth in the world cannot change what man has done to God’s creations on this world. Physical pain and suffering is temporary….those who do not suffer in the spirit by what they see will probably suffer everlasting. We can only look forward to the Great Hope that is the completion of The Mystery of Christ….to end our suffering.

    Martin is correct….the financial system is being erased, and those doing it want to also drastically reduce the earth’s population. They forget tho….that my God also has a Plan that trumps theirs…actually uses theirs for His purposes eternal! It is time to search our hearts and ask God to remove anything within them that will weaken us during what is coming. No nation on earth today is sacrificing their welfare to help….totally help and relieve the suffering that occurs in other nations and within their own. No massive effort is being made to feed the starving in the dictator countries….because of political correctness. We allow them to starve their people….Why? What would God will us to do? Because we do not act….He removes His protective Hand.

  114. Simon….God has made His knowledge available within the Bible, and through the Holy Spirit. He asks that we keep our lanterns filled so we can see within the dark that surrounds us with the Light that He provides. He wants us to prepare and know so we are in a place where we can help…spiritually and/or physically.

    It is never about what we know or want.

    My total prayer to God has always been, since a child….”Please don’t give me what I want, but what you want for me…because you are Perfect, and I want the Best. Amen

  115. Knowing Christ is knowledge, knowing God is the beginning of knowledge. The simple principals ignored by many for many are afraid of their deeds being exposed and would rather hang unto them.

  116. Martin Jun 19th 2012

    Seeing how many people have either fallen away or defected from a true Biblical Christianity, and this difficult time has barely begun, scepticism leads me to wonder how many will be left standing at the end?

  117. Martin…so I am not in the dark about what you mean, and do not have to assume….please tell me your definition of “true Biblical Christianity”……as you are using it in the above post.

    List those things that make up true Biblical Christianity. At least the most critical things.

    For example:

    1. Faith in Jesus Christ

    2. Gathering together with others of the Faith (should that be one of your definitions)

    3. Etc.

    In that way we may all benefit, and not have to assume which statements you support and which you do not.

    Thank you.

  118. Biblical Christianity simply means we understand the Bible as is and it is the source of ways and judgements.
    In other words what the Bible says concerning something is the way it is because the Bible is the revealed will of God. Its wisdom, its ways are how we ought to live
    You see doctrines and teachings and knowledge are all in context of what God has ordered and said not what men have made them out to be.
    To leave Biblical Christianity means that words or statements or practices have been added to or altered to fit our own understanding rather than our own understanding must fit what the Bible actually says.
    This is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom for God alone is the author of the Bible.

  119. Martin Jun 19th 2012

    Claudia, no. I’m not getting into an haranguing match where we each state our variant understandings of what constitutes Biblical Christianity. It’s too far off topic.

    I will, however, lead you to Hebrews 6:1 & ff where the writer to Hebrews lays out the most basic and fundamental teachings of Christianity. It is abundantly clear to me by the condition of what calls itself Christianity that almost no one has an in depth understanding here. I’m quite sure a profound study of this passage would be far more beneficial than my spouting off. That passage at least has Biblical authority.

  120. He who humbles himself shall be exalted but he who exalts himself shall be humbled

  121. Graham P Jun 19th 2012

    Depression, recession, the collapse of the financial markets and institutions is upon us and those who have profitted out of christianity using churches and it members, will get what they bargained for.
    Christians do face trials and tribulations which is a part of growing up in the faith. To those who keep wanting to become prosperous and wealthy because false teachers and prophets say so to create themselves religious empires, will either fall by the wayside, repent of their greediness, or will follow and accept the coming world leader and the false prophet due to deception.
    The rapture will happen for the Bride of Christ and will not be secret due to the world knowing about it afterwards. His Bride taken in a twinkling of an eye!
    Those who dismiss this and are not ready, then the blood will be upon their shoulders leaving them behind. Do they want this because of their ignorance?
    Then the Great Tribulation will begin which will be “hell on earth.”
    Kindly listen to this song and ponder what is being shared

  122. To Claudia
    I will say Amen to what Graham has shared. That will be their major test of biblical christianity for those calling themselves christians who have been left behind. Will they die for Christ for not receiving the Mark of the Beast? Interesting thoughts about the matter and how the western church is treating and dealing what is happening in our world today over the financial mess which is hitting every nation on earth. Another world war in the pipeline? And of course charities are pleading poverty on tv for the want of money for them to survive in this crisis.
    Also if people have not already noticed there is talk amongst government officials holding positions in the EU of having a world leader and one world government.

  123. DeWayne Jun 19th 2012

    Left behind…
    It does appear some yet living will be left behind, the bible (revelation) has even called them saints:
    Rev 13:7-8 “He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.”

    However the next verse implies these conquered like those neither hot nor cold, are those whose names are not found in the book of life:
    Rev 13:8 “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast — all whose names have not been written in the book of life…”

    The bible also tells about a remnant of saint’s at this time remaining faithful beyond 1335-day of Satan as ruler, being those now found beneath the alter, the angel tells John of these other souls, ‘these are they that came out of the Great Tribulations.’

    And these must be the last of the faithful called up into heavens, escaping the wrath of God, about this we are assured:
    Rom 5:9-10 “Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!”

    It would however be very unwise to believe saint’s will not suffer in these economic times ahead, as has been true throughout many centuries, today becoming true for the great Empires. I do not believe God brought this upon the earth, but we ourselves had part.

  124. DeWayne Jun 19th 2012

    I was a fool before learning of the Lord, even by the worlds standard of wisdom and knowledge.

    Can you imagime (s a fool) my great thrill to learn by the HS within, that the ‘word is spiritually discerned’, and as verse tells us, have the mind of the Lord. Simply ask says the Lord, ask in His name.

    I have since learned indeed there are a few textual errors in the OT, minor and trivial, peraps this will be frightening to a babe in the Lord. Should this be the case, then simply wh prayer study God’s word and how we renew our mind with God’s wisdom and knowledge… as the new spiritual man.

    Even though still a fool and still learning, my opinion and belief is these textual errors will not lead us astray, instead it is false teaching and prophecy that (we do not validate in God’s Word with prayer), this is what will lead us astray.

  125. DeWayne…Persecution in the Last Days will bring believers together but that will be far and far between the composition of the christian church which is falling further away from our Heavenly Father who is our Creator.
    The charismatic movement and the Word of Faith Movement are on a collision course with Father God with their false teachings and prophecies. For no one can manufacture or manipulate their so called revival with all of the shenanigans of chasing signs and wonders. Their leaderships would like to impress their followers of achieving a prosperous and wealthy lifestyles by doing what they please and conjure up in their organised meetings. In building their religious empires takes a priority over REPENTANCE.
    This is the two day meeting for next week under the title of the Bay of the Holy Spirit Revival which is on tour in the USA
    The God Channel is televising this event which brethren already know this tv channel is controlled and directed by the WoF leadership. Notice who is included on their programmes.
    But then, who are of today giving warnings about these charlatans who are wolves masquerading as sheep?
    Only a few watchmen. See
    It appears many deluded christians prefer to be entertained and accept every wind and doctrine that comes into the christian church without any discernment or questions raised.
    Am I in a minority to recognise this where biblical doctrine is being replaced slowly and surely in the midst of the western church which is in turmoil and disarray?
    For what is going on will lead christians further astray in the End Times which is upon us now!
    I will join in the proclaimation of MARANATHA!!!!!!!

  126. I agree with you Simon….and I too, Peter, would say, “Amen” to what Graham has shared….and thank you for sharing.

    I have found that the problem with not stating what is our understanding, but just refering one back to the Bible verses, is that what a verse may mean to one, is not always the way another has understood it. Some rely on the authority of man for their interpretation of scripture, such as the Pope as one example, and others rely on the entire Book of Scripture and the Holy Spirit to enable their understandings as best they can.

    To learn from another, one has to start with that person’s understanding of an “orange”….otherwise the conversation may be about apples and oranges and confusion. That is why I asked what your understanding was Martin.

    To me, the verses you refered us to are all about faith in Jesus, receiving the Holy Spirit, enduring to the end, and not sucumbing to the power of the world, because the writer fears that once sucumbing to the world, after having tasted of the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to come back and repent.

    I would agree with that.

    There are many out there in the world who have never tasted of the Holy Spirit….and when the economy collapses they may have to seek another foundation for their security. Hopefully it will be in Jesus Christ…if they are or were lucky enough to have a Christian nearby to help them….a Christian who is willing to share the last drop of food, along with the Message of Salvation and Brotherly love, that is willing to give their life for another.

    There are many out there right now who pimp out My Lord for their own gain…and I would say that many who do that have never tasted of the Holy Spirit, but have faked it all along for their own gain. So even these types will have the opportunity to repent.

    I am having a hard time coming up with those types who have tasted of the Holy Spirit and than given it up…rejected it….for the power of the world. (Except for one…yes…the dragon!, and also, yes…the fallen angels!) I guess because having tasted It, I could never imagine anyone wanting to trade it in for the cheapness of the world.

    I can think of another group out there who have scholarly become acquainted with the Word…studied it….memorized it….used it…but sadly never actually tasted the Holy Spirit, because their scholarly application of the word within their life has worked for them…and they never had the need or hunger for the Love of the Lord because the world has always supplied their need for love and validation/acceptance. So even these types in hard times when what they thought were God’s blessings have stopped, have an opportunity to repent.

    I guess I would say that much of the discussion on this list concerns some who think others have fallen away from the Holy Spirit….(a judgement)….when in reality those others may have experienced the Holy Spirit calling them to a purer form of Jesus Christ….a form not so polluted by earthly man….a form that is perfectly suited for God to work through….a simpler form that does not require cathedrals, but only a barn and hay bales to sit upon to worship God…..or a neighbors living room where two or three or more can gather.

    Another area of discussion on this list concerns those who believe that their gifts and understandings are from the Holy Spirit, and there are others on the list who, because those gifts and understandings are contrary to their understandings (but not contrary to the Bible) have judged the other as “fallen”, or purhaps….”never found”.

    Love can cover these areas….the Love for Jesus Christ is what unites most Christians….inspite of their differing understandings which are not salvational. The love for man is what divides christians.

    Jesus Christ is alive….and will be with me until the end of time….and I am forgiven.

    Thank you Jesus for knowing what we need.

  127. Martin Jun 19th 2012

    Claudia, the issue is not a matter of failure to share understandings. I made it clear what you asked is too far off topic.

    For a debate of any nature to be worth while and upbuilding we need to keep within the bounds of the subject matter in hand. That’s a personal discipline which will reward us well.

    If my core beliefs, which are no beliefs at all but the very fabric of my being upon which has been built this last forty years, aren’t in alignment with those of another person it will become quite apparent in what is posted or said. In that instance I’m open to discussion and perhaps correction, but in the appropriate arena.

    I cite Hebrew 6:1 for this reason: therein is the briefest of summaries of the Christian belief system. After twenty years of studying them in detail through the entire Bible, I can say confidently that if one truly and consistently plumbs the depths of that passage, Hebrew 6:1 – 3, the very building blocks of a knowledge of God will be revealed; they are the totality of the self revelation of God to man, supremely through Jesus Christ His Son. Such a study exposes the will of God for each one of us. But please understand, as three verses they are only the keys which unlock the door to understanding; to a knowledge of God in which we may live and move and have our being.

    It’s worth pointing out the writer to the Hebrews says these are but elementary teachings, and maturity in Christ Jesus lies beyond a profound understanding of these core doctrines. He regards it as kindergarten material!

    It is against these elementary teachings, and a very long term study of them, that I weigh in the balance each ‘new movement of the Holy Spirit’, each new teaching, each minister’s words and life style, each writer’s books, each latter prophecy, in fact everything. It is seldom the case that a single Scripture, or even an agglomeration of Scriptures, will define, sustain or validate anything of God. The whole counsel of God is required. That is the chief reason I don’t hurl Scriptures at people.

    But here, to get somewhat nearer the topic, I will offer a Scripture: For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1Cor 3:11. All these movements within the so-called Christian community which cobble together Scriptures to prove their point; all movements promising a prosperity, spiritually or materially, or short cuts to spiritual maturity, without building on the foundation already laid, are not of Christ. I contend, the sole reason why such aberrant movements get a foothold among Christians is because they lack knowledge of God and will therefore perish.There will be massive and painful fall outs.

    Truly, Claudia, my heart goes out to all people in distress, and a few have written on this thread. Yet it must be said, the true Biblical Christianity which is set before us as our inheritance, has been borne down the generations on the shoulders of persecuted people, hungry people, many of whom gave their lives in the most desperate of circumstances rather than betray their Lord. These are just some of the saints.This does, for me at least, put our own financial woes in context, and show prosperity teachings of whatever flavour to be hollow and valueless.

    The pain of financial and social contraction is hard to bear; no one should under estimate that. The pain of withdrawal from any sin, and truly repenting, turning one’s mind against it, is also painful. The Evil One ensures that. Yet the rewards for obedience are wonderful, beyond measure.

  128. Martin Jun 19th 2012

    Colin, guess you’re UK too! Nice to read a Brit’s stuff.

    “Am I in a minority to recognise this where biblical doctrine is being replaced slowly and surely in the midst of the western church which is in turmoil and disarray?”

    No, Colin, you’re not in a minority! If you are, perchance, it’s a minority of two.

    I first recognised this in the early eighties with the Charismatic Renewal. Been away from the Lord for a few years and was called back heavily during a long term injury. Bible in hand, it was obvious the likes of Terry Virgo and David Watson (and a good few others) were just beginning to take things away from the Biblical model.

    Involved in a Christian bookshop in the North of England in the early nineties, it was clear much had been perverted. Worse, it was infiltrating main stream Pentecostal and other denominational churches at a rate of knots. Chief among the popular doctrines was Prosperity; but a movement to get WOF into churches was well underway.

    One thing in particular became clear in those days. No one leading these movements would answer a question directly. I wrote to David Watson’s church in York a number of times and eventually got a reply of garbled Scriptures which, when joined together could be twisted to support their main doctrines, but standing alone in the context in which they were written indicated something very different.

    As for religious broadcasting in the UK, it’s mostly syndicated American stuff, with a little home grown apart from Revelation and God TV. It’s about as popular with me as East Enders or Match of the Day. I don’t do social engineering or sport! On the odd occasion I do watch a few minutes of religious broadcasting I’m usually amazed no one is dealing with the present financial crisis on a Biblical basis (that’s affecting everyone) but rather pressing on with the same old tired teachings of increasingly blessing yourself at someone else’s expense. Get more, get it now, sow your seed of $1000, providing you send it to me, the preacher!

    I don ‘t know where you are in the UK Colin, but I see this aberrant theology getting stronger and taking a deeper hold on churches and fellowships. Christians and church goers are being brought to a point of decision: choose this day whom you will serve …

  129. Martin Jun 20th 2012

    Claudia, I’ve just read the letter to my brother on your website.

    It has moved me deeply. It’s almost the image of what I would say to my sister.

    She too is far away, in both senses of the phrase.

  130. So well said, Martin. Early in my search of scriptures through Bible Study and from listening to Preachers and Christian teachers I beseached the Lord in prayer to show me what He wanted me to absorb and let everything else go from me remembrance. Now in my golden years, I can see how the Lord has shielded me all these 62 years a born again Christian.

    Yes, I bit into the Prosperity gospel for a little while, back in the early 80’s. (It was their enthusiasm that got my excitement, not their gospel. When I started to really listen to their words of deception coming to light, I bolted. My background was Penticostal, (my Grandmother on my dad’s side) and of all things, Baptist, my mother’s side. If this name it and claim it ‘gospel’ were the ‘truth’, I’d be a billioniare by their perverted teachings! Thank God He called me out from this deceptive gobbledigop of a religion.

    The financial banking system reminds me much of the ‘new’ decieved churches theology: The Banking World are so greedy to make themselves so much richer and richer, they are destroying the very people who fed them. Ditto the ‘New churches system’. No brainer: The god of this world controls both systems.

  131. I was not inquiring of you, Martin, so I could correct you, but so I could learn. As to topic….I have avoided the endtime topic since I read Andrew’s request for same.

    Our faith in Jesus Christ and enduring hardships, following Christ’s guidance to be prepared to help during this economic collapse is all about what the current topic is about….so I figured.

    For example…..there are scriptures within the Bible given to us that i wish I understood better, regarding who we are supposed to help and welcome into our house. But perhaps that would be considered off topic also….so I will go away from the feeding trough hungry….tho I seek that understanding better….God will give it.

    Thank you, Martin, for understanding that Open Letter to My Brother. At the time I was moved to write it (did not want to, but was under Another’s control) circumstance were such that I knew that my brother needed the reality of his condition….and I so desparately wanted him to link up with Christ before it was too late… so we could be together in eternity. Part of me felt it was cruel….but the words needed to be stated so that he would have a chance…his last chance. And God grew that “seed” letter into my brother’s true recognition of his state, and what he most desired, before it was too late. He called me a month later telling me how he walked into a small church in his mountain community….and he joked how the walls almost fell in. My brother was a pretty rough mountain character. He learned to cherish reading the Bible and getting to know God in the last year of his life….and when he was too weak to read himself, he would have others read to him. He found the Truth in Jesus Christ, and my brother will be much suited to fight in Christ’s Army when the time comes for warriors to destroy evil…..I hope we can ride together on that task. I can see him in that army that comes with the Brilliant Light that completed George Washington’s Vision of the end times of our nation…(that is on my website also)…..the army of white that came down to destroy the evil “red glow’ that was fighting within our nation…..that army which turned the tide within our nation….at Christ’s return….just as it does worldwide….as I am sure that red glow will not be limited to the USA.

    I later made the letter public because none of us are in unique circumstances, and I felt that perhaps that letter would help others confront the truth with those in need. I know that letter has been used by others to open the eyes of their loved ones before it was too late. God helped me write it….it wasn’t planned….it just came out of Our heart and because our love is not for our own popularity.

    I think that we can all agree that unless we are controlled by Christ we are subject to the god of this world. And because man runs all systems of the world….the dragon controls those systems which are not filled with Godly men.

  132. Martin Jun 20th 2012

    Claudia, your letter to your brother had me in tears. My sister’s plight is so like you described, but we have been estranged this last fifteen years; I, as the elder, insisted our Mother’s will was executed as she wished, and would not apportion her few worldly possessions and cash to my sister alone.

    My sister was in Sweden, I’m in the UK. We have no contact, in fact, I don’t know where she is today. Which is why your letter reduced me to tears.

    All I can say is, thank you.

    Claudia, my email address is [email protected]. If you care to write me, I’ll be thrilled to correspond. But the initiative is with you.

  133. “…..Colin, guess you’re UK too! Nice to read a Brit’s stuff.

    “Am I in a minority to recognise this where biblical doctrine is being replaced slowly and surely in the midst of the western church which is in turmoil and disarray?”

    No, Colin, you’re not in a minority! If you are, perchance, it’s a minority of two…..”

    “….One thing in particular became clear in those days. No one leading these movements would answer a question directly….”

    Colin and Martin – a minority yes, but alone – no.. :-)

    There are many around the world who ‘see’ as you do – I and others in NZ, and elsewhere, are led by Lord Jesus similarly.

    Martin – my experience is that it isn’t just the leaders who are unable or unwilling to answer questions – yet we are to question as Lord Jesus Christ leads us.

    In His love,

  134. Martin, you so wrote true when you said the letter reminded you of your sister. I too was estranged from my brother for 30 years or so, except for brief moments that he would drop back in to our awareness and than drop back out. He dropped back in when a parent died…to see what he could gain. I too was the executor and did as both parents stipulated in their papers. I cannot begin to share with you how greatful I was that God brought us together before it was too late. Had it not been for the illness, I don’t think my brother would have got back in touch. Blessings are often disguised to man’s senses…..just like this coming economic collapse (keeping it on topic! ;-)

    Have you tried searching for her via the internet? We sometimes have to wait for God’s timing….and that can be difficult. I know you know you can keep in touch through your prayers to God….and His Will be done. Perhaps the coming financial situation will bring her back into your arms.

    That you were touched also brought me to tears….knowing that the sharing of that letter and and being open suited God’s purposes.

    For so much of that time when he was out of sight….I assumed that he was dead. Than….I got a phone call! I pray that you also are released from the pain of the loss you are experiencing now….and you get an opportunity to help her with her True destiny. I have a hunch you will be hearing from her…if she is still alive.

  135. DeWayne Jun 20th 2012

    It appears there is a time within God’s purpose, when the Sentinel upon the wall is finally noticed, Andrew our host is indicitive of this truth.

    If prophet’s within the OT are example, there appears no time during a harbinger’s utterance of truth, when the individual themselve’s are greated with warm hugs and abundant love.

    Chin up, and duck when necessary. What He whispers in your ear, continue shouting from the roof top.

  136. Martin Jun 20th 2012

    Claudia and Roger, only this comes to mind.

    Thank you.

    There just isn’t any more for the moment.