by Andrew Strom

I am really hoping to make this the last of this type of article for awhile. Some people think I “love” putting out this stuff. But I honestly wish it would all go away, so we could get on with the ‘real’ work of building the kingdom.

However, Bill Johnson is doing such damage to the Body of Christ
around the world that I simply cannot stay silent. In New Zealand
(where I am currently) he holds a huge Conference once a year
called “Manifest Presence”. This is amost certainly the biggest
and most influential Christian conference in the whole country.
And likewise in other nations, such as UK, Australia, Singapore,
and many others. His influence is enormous.

Bill Johnson is a very charming man. He also emphasizes a
number of things that I heartily agree with – such as street
evangelism using the gifts of the Spirit, prophecy and healing
on the streets, etc. But the problem is that he endorses and
promotes an “anointing” exactly identical to the one that Todd
Bentley promotes. The “drunken glory”, fire-tunnel, laughing,
jerking, gold-dust, “Angel-mania”-type anointing that has done
such damage to the Charismatic movement around the world –
and in many cases reduced it to a shocking travesty of what it
once was. What would Derek Prince or Keith Green think of the
things these men are into – spiritual drunkenness, “portals”,
‘visualization’, spirit-travel, fire-tunnels, angel-orbs and the like?
(Found all the way through the New Age movement, but not in
the Bible).

Bill Johnson was one of the biggest supporters of the Lakeland
revival led by Todd Bentley. And even after the fiasco that it
became, he publicly endorsed Todd Bentley’s ministry again in
2011. But Bill does it all with such “down-to-earth” charm and
wise-sounding words – “how could this be deception?” That is
what makes him so dangerous.

His wife Beni is co-pastor with Bill of Bethel church in Redding,
California. And interestingly she is even more open about the
bizarre things that they are into. She even puts it in writing on
the Internet, for all the world to see.

For example, in her “Life and Wellness” blog on July 6 this year,
here is what she wrote in an entry called ‘Love Shack Time':
“I was talking with Ray Hughes the other day and was telling him
about using a 528 HZ tuning fork as a prophetic act. Someone
told me that this tuning fork is called the tuning fork of LOVE…”
(Please note that crystals and tuning forks are used in NEW AGE
therapy – and have nothing to do with Christianity in any way).

Beni continued: “Recently I got up to speak at a meeting and
walked up to the song “Love Shack” by the B52’s. I was calling
people to more love. It was so fun.”

I guess we are now beginning to get a sense of the strange
spiritual world that these people inhabit. Another blog post that
Beni wrote about ‘WAKING UP ANGELS’ in March 2009 was
also very revealing:

“In the last couple of months, I personally have become more
aware of the angelic activity in this realm. One of those times
was when we were on a prayer trip to Arizona… One morning as
we were driving up over Tehachapi Pass and coming down into
the Mojave Desert, I began to feel angels. The closer we got,
the stronger the impression felt. I could see them everywhere!..
I announced this to the group and said, “We have got to stop!
We have to stop somewhere…” As we drove around a corner I
said, “I think that we are going to wake up some angels here…”

“We knew we were to turn around, get out of the RV and wake
up the angels. I wish I could convey to you the energy and the
quickness of how God was working. We jumped out of the RV,
I blew the shofar and rang the bell, and we yelled “WAKEY
WAKEY.” We got back into the RV and drove off. As we drove
off, hilarious laughter broke out! We were stunned at the speed
at which this all took place and were spinning from the adventure
and the angelic activity. What in the world had just happened?!
Heaven collided with earth. Woo hoo!!

“Since that time, there has been a stirring in me to awaken the
angels for use in this Kingdom reign that is upon us here on earth.
I have shared these two stories in other places and have done a
prophetic act of waking up the angels: having everybody cry out,
“WAKEY WAKEY!” I know it is strange but it is very effective…
One of our gals who enjoys God’s angels… gets pretty wacked
when they are around…”

The reference that Beni makes here to “Heaven colliding with
earth” is of course directly tied to Bill Johnson’s most famous
teaching on “When Heaven Invades Earth”. Clearly, this is the
kind of thing they mean when they use that phrase. So if we
get with their program so-to-speak, we too can go around
“waking up angels” and getting “pretty wacked” when these
‘angels’ are around.

I guess the obvious question is whether they are “serious” about
all this. Sadly, the answer is “Yes.” When you get so completely
deceived that you think “drunken glory” and ‘tuning forks’ and
getting “wacked” are normal Christian behaviour, you are open
to anything. Tragically, if we look at all that these people have
said and done now for years and years, we have to conclude that
one of Christendom’s biggest leaders (Bill Johnson) inhabits the
most bizarre quasi-spiritual universe that you can imagine. And
he is spreading this deceived foolishness in the Body of Christ
on a mass scale. It might seem almost “funny” if it wasn’t so
‘New Age’ serious.

One young lady named Johanna who had been a student for many
months at Bill Johnson’s ‘Bethel’ school wrote to me the following:

“In August 2008 I moved to Redding, California to attend Bethel
School of Supernatural Ministry (BSSM). I graduated in May
2009… Almost right away I began to question the bizarre behavior
that is so normal there.

“At Bethel, there are many sayings that are tossed around daily…
“God only has nice things to say,” “There´s no high like the Most
High.” There would be all kinds of distracting behavior (random
shouting, laughing, etc.) during school sessions and church
services. When any guest speaker came to school, students
would flock to the front to get as close to the speaker as possible.
We were taught that any anointing we wanted could be received
by simply “claiming it” for ourselves. Students would rush the
stage and the front of the sanctuary so the speakers could lay
hands on them.

“Among the guest speakers were Bob Jones, Heidi Baker,
Georgian and Winnie Banov, Randy Clark, John and Carol Arnott…
We also had regular sessions with Bill Johnson, Beni Johnson…
and other Bethel pastors. The drunken behavior and questionable
teachings from some, if not all, of these speakers was shocking
at times. I can safely say that I never heard the word “repentance”
once in any teaching.

“I remember when the Banovs came, the whole place was complete
chaos. When they touched someone, that person would jerk
violently or stumble around as if they were drunk. The Banovs
minister to people in trash dumps around the world… What I
remember them talking about was love, joy, bliss, and the new wine.

“Angels were often talked about. I remember Beni Johnson actually
took an RV across Arizona and New Mexico to wake up angels
that were supposedly sleeping. (Another one of the common
phrases, “Wakey wakey”). I would always hear people talking
about their encounters with angels and how they visited heaven.
One young woman I knew said she could see angels everywhere,
she talked to them all the time, and she would help her friends to
do the same… God becomes like Santa Claus. Without the
preaching of the true gospel, the fear of the Lord is lost.”

ANDREW AGAIN: As you can see from all these reports, the
ministry of Bill Johnson is highly suspect. Sadly, because the
deception is not as “obvious” as Todd Bentley, people are
charmed into thinking he’s “fine”. Charismatic leaders around
the world flock to his meetings and openly endorse his teachings.
For this reason I believe he is far more dangerous than Todd
Bentley ever was. The Bible says that in the last days will come
false teachers and “lying signs and wonders” to deceive if
possible the “very elect.” And what do we see today? New Age
practices and spirits are flooding the church. And it is men like
Bill Johnson that have become the “acceptable face” of this
invasion. Please, friends, steer well clear.

Please forward this email to anyone you feel may be in danger
from this deception. And please comment below-

God bless you all. – Andrew Strom.

Posted in Articles by Andrew on June 26th, 2012 at 7:32 pm.


720 Replies

  1. @Andrew.
    Give it a rest. Maybe you should concentrate on ministiring the Gospel instead of spending time attacking and accusing your co-workers in Christ.

    It reflects poorly on you. Bill Johnson & Bethel have done more good for the body of Christ then most, not to mention the reputable names that are associated with them. You’re basically painting everyone associated with them with the same brush. Shame. Shame about the tall poppy syndrome you seem to have.
    Good luck on your pursuits.

  2. Hi Andrew,
    firstly I want to thank you for this article. It really is an answer to prayer for me. A little while ago I came across something that Bill Johnson had written on his Facebook page. My spirit just felt sick. It wasn’t so much the words but there was something that disturbed me. I challenged the comments and boy did I release a backlash from members of his church.
    This was three weeks ago.
    I issued an apology to those that I had obviously offended but no further comment was made.
    I was confused as I challenged what I thought to be something not of God but why the such a backlash.
    The Holy Spirit gave me a scripture that really comforted me:

    Luk 16:15
    But He said to them, You are the ones who declare yourselves just and upright before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted and highly thought of among men is detestable and abhorrent (an abomination) in the sight of God. [I Sam. 16:7; Prov. 21:2.]
    Now this article comforts me more.
    I have to say though in honesty that I did approach the subject with him probably not as lovingly as I could have done but was still astonished at the reaction of his church members.

  3. “I am really hoping to make this the last of this type of article for awhile. Some people think I “love” putting out this stuff. But I honestly wish it would all go away, so we could get on with the ‘real’ work of building the kingdom.”
    Andrew, In the name of Jesus, you do what the Lord has called you to do,say the words that HE has put in your mouth to say and let HIM worry about building up HIS kingdom.

    Great Article!

  4. Deb Andre Sep 26th 2012

    I can’t help but wonder if part of the problem is that we’re not taking Jesus at His word: first, we don’t ‘build the kingdom’- in Matthew 16:18, Jesus says, ‘…and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.’ second, Jesus tells an important facet of discernment: in Matthew 12: 33, 34-“Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.’

    Your article indicates that this is not being taken to heart when you suggest ‘Bill Johnson is a very charming man. He also emphasizes a number of things that I heartily agree with – such as street evangelism using the gifts of the Spirit, prophecy and healing on the streets, etc. But the problem is that he endorses and promotes an “anointing” exactly identical to the one that Todd Bentley promotes.’
    I suggest that the problem is that you’re not letting his words, actions, and affiliations (his fruit) tell you that he’s unreliable as a teacher/ pastor. There’s far too much trying to pick the good out of the bad or vice versa.
    John 16:17 tells us ‘Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them’. That’s my plan; pray that he may repent and be restored, by all means, but don’t follow or promote him.

  5. Elaine Sep 26th 2012

    Mick, I am thankfull that Andrew sounds the alarm. Many people follow a man without question.
    The bible warns of false teachings. We need to be rooted and grounded in God’s Word. When I was a young Christian, I too bought into some of that crazy stuff. My reasoning was that these men knew more then I…….. without checking it out.
    Seek God and test everything……………….we are in a time of much deception. Don’t be intimidated thinking THEY know more.
    God bless you, Andrew……………I realize it isn’t easy. Keep sounding the alarm………….wake up the sheeple (followers without discernment.).

  6. Steve,
    “I have to say though in honesty that I did approach the subject with him probably not as lovingly as I could have done but was still astonished at the reaction of his church members”
    Such is the case with people who have our calling, which I presume is new to you. Believe me, no matter HOW lovingly you think you are stating something, you will get the hatefulness and backlash because people love their ways more than the ways and word of God. The word is indeed a two edged sword, and at times it will come across strong. Say what the Lord has for you to say (or write) the way He will have you say or write it. Trust that the Lord will confirm His word with the people and their acceptance or rejection of it is their acceptance or rejection of God Himself.

  7. Deb,
    Lets not forget or neglect the calling that God has placed on all in general and some in particular to defend His word and His ways and to stand up for the truth of His word. Read the letters to Timothy and Titus in particular. Andrew’s calling is not everyone’s calling. Do what the Lord has for you to do.

  8. Brother Paul Sep 26th 2012

    Perhaps when you say that “Bill Johnson is a very charming man” you may be absolutely right.. Charming being the operative word. The dictionary defines the word ‘charming’ as: ‘using charm; exercising magic power.’ Interesting indeed…

  9. Mark Andrew Sep 26th 2012

    Paul says in Colossians 2:18,

    “Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.”

    Today we understand the word “worship” to mean the singing of worship songs and the speaking out of praise. I understand that this word properly and originally has a more general meaning of giving value or worth (ie. worship=worth-ship) to something. If it goes beyong giving the honour that something is due, then it is idolatry, and I believe this describes today’s growing obsession with angels. Idolatry essentially cuts Christ out of the equation, and Paul’s very next words in verse19 are,

    “He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews grows, as God causes it to grow.”

    I believe that only God may and can command angels; and that He does not need to wake them up. May He wake us up though!

  10. Dear Andrew, Do keep writing and speaking what the Holy Spirit inspires you to. Remember that with your writings/words you will be saving some waylaid believer from misery; especially them who are new to the faith and are confused with the things that they see in the Christian realm.

  11. Good article , I hope they listen and let Jesus show them how they drifted from Him and into those things.

  12. Ricardo Sep 26th 2012

    Andrew, be encouraged in the work that you do. It is an eye opening article, I think more people need to stand against the teaching of this man Bill Johnson.

    Interestingly the people who say they are fighting for “tolerance” are often the most intolerant towards people like yourself who are trying to warn the church about deception.

    Keep fighting the fight,
    May God bless your ministry

  13. In our small town we have the *School of Supernatural Ministry out of Bethel, running twice a week, filled with well meaning and good folks. I have been warning anyone who will listen and some who don’t, to stay away from it all. The issue that makes it tough, is that it is MIXTURE. There is some good as Andrew states. (His association with the immoral behaviour of Todd Bentley and others is a big red flag for me) Derek Prince wrote an excellent article in his latter years, warning about the Toronto Blessing and its ilk. He explains the issue of mixture and how it is particularly divisive in the body of Christ. I will look for the link and post it…well worth reading. As has been stated, *the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine*…….I saw a clip some time ago of Jenn Johnson, Bill’s daughter in law, talking to some youth, alluding to angels up in heaven having *farting contests*…..my bible says they are actually crying out *HOLY HOLY HOLY*…..Its enough to make you want to weep…..

  14. keep it going brother andrew, here in los banos ca we have fellowships that are in fellowship with bill johnson and all the false teachers at bethel, right now at the fellowship i attend we are in a 4 week study on the false teachers in the church today, so please keep us in prayer for the study and that we can reach our brothers and sisters that follow bill johnson. GOD BLESS YOU

  15. Finally, somebody states the obvious…

  16. LOL, val s are you in los banos, because they are doing that same class here in los banos twice a week.

  17. I’m seeing a pattern. My husband and I are SO “outta the loop” so to speak, because we’re not running after the latest conference, we don’t even have cable TV, we rarely check out the ‘new kid on the block ministry’…

    So, when all this new stuff comes up, it’s very obvious to spot.

    When you need to go looking on the INTERNET to decipher all the new terminologies, you have to know it’s garbage! Half the things mentioned in this article, I had never HEARD of!!?? ” Fire tunnels”? “Drunken glory? There should be a sign on their doors: “Beware, fools at work!”

    Just the Bible, folks. It’s not that complicated. If you find yourself confused because half the terms your pastor is using come out of the CULTURE (even the so-called church) then it’s time to get out.

    What is driving their success is not the anointing of God, it’s YOUR money and support and the praises of man. Take away their success and money, and you would see a completely different man/woman of “God”.

    I honestly believe that when God finally strips away all the glitter and gold (pun intended) and it’s just a man and His bible, THEN we’ll have a Godly person to follow – “follow me,as I follow Christ) in the way that the Pauls and the apostles did.

    They were men that were NOT esteemed in society, they were hated. They were not the rich and affluent, rather they went around living in CAVES some of them!

    Read your Bible! Do any of the so called leaders and prophets of our day even SLIGHTLY resemble the men of the Bible?? There’s your answer!

  18. Baa Baa Sep 26th 2012

    Thank you for this post Andrew. The Word of G-d is so desperately needed to be trusted today. These are the days of Jacobs troubles and the days when the most elect will be deceived.Iit is also the time when the true spiritual gifts are needed most. We must enter this with prayer,with true repentance, before a Holy G-d that we may be used for HIS GLORY.

  19. gloria goold Sep 26th 2012

    Mick; co-workers in Christ I agree with if a person is indeed a co worker WITH Christ but I don’t see this kind of behaviour in Christ so I can not agree with you on that statement. Christ did not act like this nor display such notions.
    Andrew; this is great!! It is time for the trumpet, there are many out in this world that are called to blow it, but God will release in HIS time more true prophets of the Lord and true disciples, He is preparing them for such a time, and they will need to be well prepared, no hesitation, no pulling back, and the word of the Lord burning on their lips, whether it cost them their lives or not.

  20. Mick 2 Sep 26th 2012


    Bravo! Don’t let up. These same things grieve our Lord Jesus… and He spoke boldly against them. These things are done in His name, deceiving people. His people perish for lack of knowledge, and misinformation. Give them the truth boldly. Bethel preaches another Jesus. And it’s not just Bethel, but as you said, it is everywhere.

    I visited such a church here in California. The pastor had a message prepared, and began to deliver it. The people in the congregation were so busy doing everything but listening, that I could not even hear the preacher’s words. quickly, he quit preaching, and went with the “flow”. He and a couple of others then went about to each person there, laying their hands on them until they either laughed, howled (like a dog), cackled, and fell to the ground. They proceeded my way, with each person receiving such an anointing. I couldn’t politely slip out, so I prayed there would be no scene when they got to me. God answered prayer. Soon, everyone but me and those laying on their hands were standing. Within minutes, the crowd began to stir from the floor. They got up, all quite giddy still. I thought perhaps we’d hear some of God’s word at this point,.. but they started to leave! The “service” was over! They embraced and exclaimed just how powerful the anointing was! It was pure Hell, with the name Jesus thrown in. You’ve seen it. This is another spirit, another Jesus, and a deception that should be exposed for what it is. What would Elijah do? We must make our calling and election sure; making a clear distinction between us and them… separating ourselves from such blasphemy

    I am not the same “Mick” in the first post, but the Mick that’s been posting for some time now, and contending for the faith once delivered to the saints. Please do not mistake me for the other one.

  21. Mark Andrew Sep 26th 2012

    Gloria Goold,
    I agree that God has His own timings for releasing His ministries.
    But…and a big but .. there may be some who are already released to sound the alarm but who are are holding back because of the fear of man. Let us all repent of the fear of man, and embrace instead the fear of God, who will ultimately hold us accountable also for what we fail to do.
    Mark Andrew

  22. Karen Bishop Sep 26th 2012

    We need to keep our focus on who God the creator is, instead of all the foolishness that comes into play leading and guiding others away; this is the devil’s way of deceiving many who are seeking God. When we take time to know the Word we will know Him and these other things will have no meaning. Woe unto these that would lead the innocent astray; they have blood on their hands.
    Focus on who He is, what His word says, and who you are in Him. Stay away from the foolishness the brings God into a Disney World type setting. He is higher and when He is lifted up, He will draw all men unto Himself.
    When I was a child my mother would sing us a song; Oh be careful little eyes what you see… Be careful little ears what you hear for the Savior up above is looking down in love, oh be careful………

  23. Mick 2 Sep 26th 2012

    It may mean nothing, but in Greek mythology, the goddess Circe (from where we get our word “church”). She is said to be the daughter of the Sun God Helios, and would transform her enemies into animals, through her use of magical potions and a wand. She was known for her vast knowledge of drugs and herbs. Her victims were known to howl like dogs, roar like lions, and generally make a mockery of man who was formed in the image of God. Google it and weep.

    Also, in recent church history, the Jesuits behind the ecumenical movement found they were unsuccessful in subverting the pentecostal Christians, so they switched plans and introduced to them spiritism and mysticism. It appears to be working.


    In God’s love,

    Mick 2

  24. Mike W. Sep 26th 2012

    Sounds like witchcraft. If anything, Andrew was pretty kind about his criticism.

    Wakey, Wakey ; really?! It’s not the Angels that have fallen asleep.

    Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. –Matthew 26:40

  25. Karen Bishop Sep 26th 2012

    On a further note, I wish to thank you Andrew for taking a stand against these types that would try to drag Our Lord and Savior down to a place of impropriety. Everything God did, has done, and is going to do will be completely confirmed in His Word. It’s always amazing to me that people can take the name of God, drag through the mud of spiritualistic garbage and others join in the party. The glory isn’t given to God in these scenarios, it’s given to the men and women who attract attention to themselves and not to the great I AM.

  26. Nancy L Fraley Sep 26th 2012

    Thank you for the article. I think the false comes forth before a REAL revival!!!

  27. Ok I agree that Bill Johnson has been into some some that makes me pretty uncomfortable. HOWEVER, I think that it’s important to not completely disregard someone because God can use ANYBODY to speak into your life in a powerful way. Bill Johnsons new book “Hosting the Presence of God” is phenomenal! There is revelation in there about the atonement and baptism of the Holy Spirit that rocked my world. He does NOT talk about any of the uncomfortable spiritual stuff and there is even a small section on repentance. There is no New Age in it at all!

    Personally I think articles like this are out of line. Why call someone out like this in a public forum? What does that accomplish? You can come against someones practices without directly bashing the person. Andrew it might be valuable for you to remember that truth is to be spoken in Love and love might have been better served by going directly to the Johnsons with your concerns instead of setting them up for Judgement by sending this article to your list. But maybe you did do that first.

    I am not a “Bill Johnson Defender” and I am uncomfortable with where he is on manifestations of the spirit. BUT that doesn’t automatically disqualify everything he says or writes so we should be careful about turning people completely against him.


  28. Andrew – I know this is a tough article to write. I was a worship leader in one of the east coast churches if not the main east coast church that housed meeings and conferences led by all of these people. In fact Georgian Banov and his wife (He is from the veteran Christian group Silverwind) are on staff or at least were at this church..I left the church in 2001 after I fell and had an affair. I had a growing worship ministry and was extremely successful. I took and do still believe Biblically much of what was taught in the years I was there. Randy Clark moved from St Louis MO to the Harrisburg area to plant his base and was a frequent speaker at this church. In fact post the Toronto Outpouring we werew one of the first churches in the area that “brought it back” and one of many who were commenting on the same not long after 1994/95 timeline. I didn’t care how crazy it got, if it was truly God I wanted it. Im very Berean that way. I can only imagine the Day of Pentecost or walking up to Sinai and encountering the true power of God. Who knows what will happen but I don’t endorse some of the stuff there anymore. My kids (split family now post my divorce) and ex still attend there. It’s essentially an east coast Redding. Many friends who have left this church wondering what in the world is going on have crossed paths with me through the years and have left church altogether because of this continual ascent (or descent) into things that somehow just don’t seem real but more fantasaical. I want to believe that their intentiions are right and who knows what Israel and surrounding nations thought when naked prophets of old were clamoring thru the streets bringing judgment. But somehow this goes to another level. Below is a prophetic insight I believe I had to such practices and actually got it while reading an article on what is being referred to as “ZOMBIE BEES” in the northwest (how interesting) Hope you will all take the time to read this as I believe it is what is going on with the true Word of God being compromised. You can look up the article on your various news sources – the artice I read was written by AP so it’s probably available anywhere:

    “Ok so as it says in the Bible first the natural then the spiritual. It’s way too crazy to explain in detail..it would take a book or two but the prophetic lesson is now seen as far as the bees. Bees and honey have been used by God to show us about revelation – not the end of the world but about how something comes from a source and then is broken down to create that which is palatable, receivable – in the spiritual case God’s word as a seed grows and then the revelation of the word comes to us – a natural sign of this is the life and duty of the bee. It takes the pollen and creates food. For instance Deborah, one of the judges in the Bible – her names means “bee.” Read about her life. Now what does Jesus call Satan? Lord of the flies – Beelzebub. I’ve always contended flies were not created originally but are a part of the fall. That’s just me, however after reading an interesting article today about zombie bees in the western US, we find that a fly lands on the back of a bee injects its larvae into them and the bee actually dies but in the end out of its dead body it gives birth to flies. See the distortion? It will happen naturally and already is with the word of God being so watered down and compromised in our culture it is actually not giving birth to life anymore, it’s demonically affected form is giving us death and removing all revelation of God from us. Put me in an asylum, I don’t care but God says in His word that to view His creation is to get a glimpse of His ways. Take it or leave. You gotta admit it’s interesting in theory.

  29. “Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified…” (1 Corinthians 1:22-23 NIV) Bill Johnson and those associated with him through the NAR are involved in the greatest deception and apostasy the Church has ever experienced. The Cross and the name of Jesus are rarely, if ever, used; in their place are the names of angels (female?) and supernatural experiences; the foundations have been destroyed.

    “If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do? The LORD is in His holy temple; the LORD’S throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men. The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates. Upon the wicked He will rain snares; fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup. For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness; the upright will behold His face.”
    (Psalms 11:3-7 NASB)

  30. debylynne Sep 26th 2012

    dear andrew
    thank you. every word made me feel sicker, but THANK YOU for speaking up once again….

    i was IN this and in it ‘good’….i had all bill’s books. but, the strange this is, i could never actually READ them….i would try – i would start – i would struggle and i would ‘give up’…..i don’t know what the difference is – why this is ‘how it was’ for ME, but, for others, they LOVED it and just ‘lapped it up’. because, at the time, i THOUGHT i wanted to be ‘immersed in this river’…..

    i pushed through ‘when heaven invades earth’ but couldn’t even make sense of most of it – it just left me ‘confused’ and empty…

    we went to see bill when he was in alabama and it was the same – he talked – very calm and reasonable – and we came away with nothing – now there weren’t any real ‘manifestations’ at this meeting – he was the only one from his ‘group’ that was there….it was pretty ‘ordinary’, but still NO witness of the true Spirit of God. at. all. we were bewildered.

    now, all i can say, is thank you thank you thank you, LORD JESUS, for not allowing us to be ‘pulled in’ worse than we were – for Your warnings – Your ‘checks’ – Your mercy – Your deliverance from such an evil thing.

    i have children that are ‘still’ believing this is ‘truly of God’ – i cannot convey the heartbreak – it nearly tore our family apart and there still is not complete restoration because they refuse to SEE the truth…..

    to the first ‘mick’ – thank GOD, the apostle paul didn’t listen to people like you, sir. he sounded the alarm about those that WOULD deceive and that sought to ‘do harm’ to those in the body of Christ. AND, he NAMED NAMES……..thank GOD!!

    this makes me heartsick – you are right, andrew. he and this ‘group’ are much more ‘dangerous’ than others – because they ARE a mixture and that is what ‘lulls’ people into a sense of ‘safety’…..

    val s and DL – absolute TRUTH.

    i read derek prince’s book on this when we were ‘coming out’ – he warned loud and clear that this was NOT the ‘Holy’ Spirit.

    Lord Jesus, please open the blind eyes, unlock the deaf ears, please LORD – i know some will REFUSE to ‘see’ but i DO believe there are others that simply are too foolish and too immature to KNOW – these are the ones i grieve for…..

  31. jamadan Sep 26th 2012

    Mick – So you’re defending these people teaching that God’s angels are all asleep and it’s our job to run around screaming ‘wakey, wakey’ at them? Really?? It’s not only just plain ol’bizarre, idiotic behavior, it’s an attack from the enemy on God’s messengers and our fellow servants of the Most High! Ms. Johnson’s revelation that God’s angels are weak, vulnerable and not doing their job is from the enemy, not from the Holy Spirit! Just how much poison are you willing to swallow and defend?!?

  32. Thank you so much for exposing these false teachings and false teachers. The Lord doesnt want anyone to fall away from the “faith once for all delivered to the saints”, so He raises up watchmen as yourself to warn His people to flee from these “seducing spirits and doctrines of demons”. PLEASE continue to be one of His watchmen and never draw back from loving the body of Christ in this way. There is going to be such a great need for this “ALL THE MORE AS WE SEE THE DAY DRAWING NEAR.” Thanks again and may the Lord bless you as you seek to bless His Holy Name!

  33. debylynne Sep 26th 2012

    i DO wish there was a ‘like’ button on here lol!! seriously, i would ‘like’ just about every single post on this thread thus far (i think only ONE exception ;-))

  34. Alan Mint Sep 26th 2012

    Hi Andrew,
    I came back from a Marriage Empowerment week-end 3 days ago, based on the Bethel course. It was packed with down to earth common sense. We did not see any of the “drunken glory”, fire-tunnel, laughing, jerking, gold-dust, “Angel-mania”-type anointing which you mention.

    I remember “love shack” the first time around. Its just music. Maybe they were trying to get away from the pharissaic tradition which is prevalent in many evangelical churches and trying to make a point in a way which the congregation would remember?

    I have physically felt God’s love for me while reading the Bible, I hope I’ll not be grouped with the “bad guys” because of that. So, for me, I’m inclined to cut them some slack.

  35. Mark Andrew Sep 26th 2012

    Jessebirkey, Souls are at stake and many people need to be warned – and thus publically. These big ministries also use public forums themselves to gather mass support. It is not like a private disagreement between two brothers. And I don’t think these big ministries want to spend too time for dealing with those who don’t pat them on the back all the time. I did not personally sense that Andrew was lacking love. And, love without a willingness to sound the alarm bells when needed is really not love. I personally would prefer that Andrew – and others – lacked “love”, as such, rather than that souls lose salvation through New Age deceptions coming in.
    Mark Andrew

  36. Debbie W. Sep 26th 2012

    Why wouldn’t anybody see point blank that this is not of God. It is not only suspect to say the least or less obvious as others but the most blatant form of deception there can possibly be. We as believers should instantly know what is false and what is true. It shouldn’t take years of decision making. God said people would seek for signs and miracles, but forget the cross and being His disciple. Many become possessed because none were saved to begin with. If people truly knew Jesus and His word, they would run from money and power hungry deceivers. This form of idolatry among believers, worshipping men on earth, is the true test of those who are sheep and those who are goats.

  37. Mark I understand what you are saying but I think many of us see things in an “the ends justify the means” approach and I’m not sure we, as followers of Jesus, are at liberty to approach life that way. Love and that approach cannot co-exist.

    Just scroll the comments that are here as a result of this article. For the most part its completely personal against the Johnsons. The tone doesn’t seem to be attacking the spiritual forces of darkness but instead attacking the flesh and blood Johnsons.

    I agree with you that souls are at risk and people should be warned. Certainly Andrew has written enough on this subject (New Age, Kundilini) that all know what his feelings are and can feel that they have been warned. I just feel that an article like this is unnecessary to advance his opinions.

    Just remember, we DO NOT have the right to sacrifice love in an attempt to save souls. “It’s the kindness of God that draws men to repentance.” What this article has effectively done is make the Johnsons the stand-in for the kingdom of darkness so we attack them instead of attacking the darkness.

  38. please go to ECHO ZOE RADIO february show, and listen to AN INVASION OF ERROR: A REVIEW OF BILL JOHNSONS- WHEN HEAVEN INVADES EARTH. boy nothing but false teaching and yes showed it to bros & sis who follow mr johnson, but of course they did not have any comments .

  39. Andrew,

    Thanks for posting this.

    I’ve been researching and writing about Bill Johnson for two years now. The following article illustrates that Jesus was ‘Christed’ by “the anointing” and this “Christ anointing” (yes, he used that term). The following article illustrates that Johnson has redefined “Christ” to “the anointing” and “antichrist” to, in essence ‘anti-anointing':


    This identifies Bill Johnson’s Christology as antichrist per the Apostle John’s definition in 1 John.

  40. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    ok – so maybe i wouldn’t click like for 3 or 4!! i spoke too soon :-)
    only half-kidding here.

    i don’t see the ‘personal attack ‘ that was referred to here at all, jesse. i mean, IF they are ‘personally’ the ones being used to ‘deceive’ people – how can you NOT name them?? i say again, look to the Word of God – IF those that were doing ‘harm’ were known by ‘name’ – they WERE named – how else can you effectively warn ANYONE???

    reese – i find your ananlogy very interesting – we were just watching the segment about the bees last night (we are beekeepers, ourselves)

    please, everyone REMEMBER, the MOST ‘effective’ deception is deception that doesn’t REALLY seem like deception! otherwise, NO ONE WOULD BE DECEIVED.

    paul warned the ephesians for THREE YEARS night and day with tears about those that would RISE UP FROM AMONG THEM to deceive……pretty dadgum serious in his eyes, wouldn’t you say??

    a little leaven DOES leaven the whole lump – be very very very careful about you ‘receive’ from this river – that is all i can say and say again – there is GREAT working of the enemy here – but remember – he will draw you in (IF you do possess any understanding in God at all) with very reasonable and subtle means – only the completely foolish and ignorant of the Word of God and the GENUINE moving of the HOLY SPIRIT, jump in without pondering and weighing and EXAMINING all things….

    i would really really urge you, those that think this ‘flow’ is ‘ok’ to do research and find out what they are ACTUALLY promoting and teaching and operating in on ALL fronts before you ‘receive’ this ministry as being OF God.

    we have the Word of God as our ‘plumbline’ for JUST this reason and we must NOT rely on our own ‘feelings’ about these things for we ARE deceived by our own hearts if we are NOT diligent..

    amen??? amen.

  41. Sorry for the jumbled post. Hit “Post Comment” before I had a chance to fully edit/finish the comment.

  42. Mark Andrew Sep 27th 2012

    Jessebirkey, I agree we always need more love. You have also reminded me that we also need to pray for those falling and leading others into deception and in the knowledge that there are spiritual dynamics behind all this. We also need to pray for ourselves, because each one of can also be deceived – if not by one thing, by another thing – but for the grace of God. God gives grace to the humble, and it is pride to think that only others can stumble. We all stand on the continuing grace of God. But mature Christians still have a responsibility to hold up a the standard of truth that is faithful to the written Word of God. This cannot be avoided. Jesus offended a lot of people, and the true gospel is offensive to many people.
    Mark Andrew

  43. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    ‘like’ mark andrew – very much. amen.

  44. Andrew,

    Thank you for the courage to post this absolutely necessary word for the Body of Christ. Keep up your good work. I would remind us ALL of the words of our Lord Jesus, which seem particularly applicable with respect to this discussion:

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works (i.e., “miracles”) in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:21-23)

  45. Hmm, I thought I just hit *send* but I went back and my post didn’t post. IF it shows up, later. Y’all know why.

    Debylynne, you mentioned Derek Prince. I have been listening to his teaching again, lately, and he does warn about this. I appreciate his balance and voice of reason. I get sad when I think about how many preachers that I have respected, are gone. Keith Green, Wilkerson, Ravenhill, Prince, etc. etc.But, we have to remain thankful and trust that God will ALWAYS have His prophets to speak to His true believers. God has yet reserved a few good preachers……for these last days!

    I have friends and family very seeped in all this stuff and I sometimes worry whether they will EVER come out again, but then God reminds me of all the foolish things that He’s brought ME out of!

    “My sheep know my voice”. God will continue to speak and continue to warn, and He’s fully capable of turning up the volume, until we listen. I know this for a fact, because God has done it for me. Also, probably most everyone on this post can attest to how God has brought them out of their own folly, a time or two. This is why in my mind we can’t get prideful and think that “WE” are the chosen ones, apart from others.

    I seem to be able to relate to a lot of what you say Deby, maybe it’s because we share the same name. ;)
    Can you guess what “DL” stands for.

  46. i haven’t read all the comments here – i became a christian thirty years ago. because of previous sin i suffered fear and my life was consumed with fear. when i came to Jesus i received forgiveness and was set free, or so i thought. i discovered after coming to Jesus and being forgiven i then encountered the christians who condemned me because i’d had an abortion, forced on my by parents who didnt want the neighbours to know what a bad girl i was. i was told by christians that i had a demon – spirits of murder, and from there the list went on. my initial conversion led me to freedom but it was the lies of of ignorant christians who thought they were doing me a service telling me i had demons and spirits in my life – they totally negated the work of the Holy Spirit and the Blood of Jesus. truthfully i lived my life in fear – i was terrified – not one person came and told me – what i had been told was a lie. when i tell you i was crippled with fear, i mean crippled – i was the man who sat by the pool for thirty five years – the same number of years i was crippled by this fear. there is too much to write here…but…
    three years ago God in His infinite love and mercy started to show me truth and love – and gradually He has started to set me free from the lies that i have lived under for far too long. if i had been in a prison cell it couldnt have been any worse that the fear i had been imprisoned in.
    but gradually Jesus came and started to heal me – much of the healing came through people like Bill Johnson and others like him…God will use whoever He wants to use.
    Bill and others began to show me a different way to think – that God does loves me – He doesnt wish me ill. He doesnt want me to live in fear – fear is of the devil – Jesus came to set us free – maybe Bill and others like him get things wrong but no more wrong than the methodist church i have walked away from after eight and a half years. while everything there looks wonderful and glowing – it is a place of entertainment and more of a theater than a church building – where the leadership are regarded as the only ones with having the power – and the congregation are the audience who come and pay their money and sit through the show – and a pretty awful show at that. in truth – those who have the Holy Spirit moving in their lives have within them the Holy Spirit potential to move in the gifts of God as and when God wants them to do so.
    i am sick of the church who promotes itself but not it’s Lord and Master – it makes me want to vomit.
    Bill Johnson might be wrong but God used him to teach me stuff that i would never have learned at the church i was attending…i think through all the ages the church has got it wrong – because we are not to promote ourselves but to life Jesus high and let him draw whoever He wants to draw to himself.
    the opposite of love is fear – Jesus said do not fear – perfect love casts out all fear – just because some in the church want all of the Spirit and to move in that way it doesnt make them any more wrong or in error than those to hold a congregation under its thumb for fear of their discovering that there just might be a member of the audience who has been favoured by God with more power than they have.
    let us love one another for love is of God and anyone who loves is born of God and knows Him.

  47. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    alice, my heart hurts for you to have suffered so much and you ARE right – HE LOVES YOU.

    the fact that they tell ‘some’ truth, doesn’t make it ok to be an instrument of the enemy, dear sister, though, does it??

    there is MUCH wrong that operates under the banner of ‘supposed christianity’ – that is why we are warned in God’s Word to be SOBER and VIGILANT and AWARE of our adversary, roaming about seeking whom he may devour – and how?? pray tell, does he devour?? remember, this is addressed to Christians – not the lost….
    he devours by deceit – he lures us into things that ‘seem’ right but when TRULY EXAMINED in the light of God’s Word – we see they are NOT.

    it was NOT bill johnson that ‘helped you’ – it was the truth of the Word of God – i am glad that something they said pointed you to that truth but it does not change the fact that MUCH of what they ‘say and do’ is NOT of God – NOT scripturally supported, dear sister.

    people keep saying ‘God will use who He wants’ – do you REALLY think that God ‘wants’ to use people that are being USED by satan to promote ‘lies’??

    donkeys?? yes. lies?? no.

    let’s be careful – we can go TOO far in our desire to be ‘fair and reasonable’ and end up ‘justifying’ the work of the enemy because we think that ‘some good’ comes out of it.

    DL – i HAD wondered what the initials stood for lol!!!
    amen and amen – i understand what you are saying about the ‘precious ones’ that have gone on before us – it can be ‘disheartening’ at times – but, God WILL raise up ‘voices’ – watchmen – thank GOD – He DOES!!!

  48. @Andrew and everyone else

    Hi Andrew, I am one of the people who really disagreed with you about the political tea party stuff, but I couldn’t agree with you more on this topic. I too am open to the gifts and believe in the Baptism in the Spirit (I say this so no one can say I am just a dead anti-gift Christian). You are spot on. I want to share with you a thought, so here it is. I feel like the Lord put on my heart that this “prophetic” garbage going on in the “latter rain” stuff with Bill Johnson, Heidi Baker, etc is the equivalent of spiritual pornography and spiritual masturbation. Rather than putting in the work to grow and persevere in love in one’s relationship with Christ, these false leaders are offering quick gratification and short cut experiences to gain what takes sacrifice, love, responsibility, and commitment. So the reason why I say it is similar to pornography is because pornography cheapens what God made to be sacred and offers it as “free”; free of the love that is required to truly experience intimacy and free of the maturity that relationship and intimacy requires. I think it could also be likened to masturbation, because masturbation is a purely selfish act; and selfishness (ego, pride, self concern above the concern for the church) is what we see so clearly in these “prophets” and leaders.
    I recently met Heidi Baker and challenged her about her association with these people. She slyly avoided being put on the spot about it by shifting the focus to her and how she doesn’t make the same broad prophetic statements her companions make. After the service I saw her in and after the lunch that I ate with her (at an AG school in Cali) I couldn’t help but feel like she was immature. I am not trying to bash or be mean, but it just reaffirmed what you pointed out in the article, there is no maturity in this movement, there is no holiness, and no sacrifice for the things of God, unless of course we are talking in terms of money hahaha. I want to hear your response to my comment (please do it in as much depth as possible; I realize you have a lot of comments but I want to know what you think of the correlation I made connecting this stuff to spiritual “sexual” sin)

  49. One of the saddest things is that this whole thing has caused such division. A number of you have spoken of division in your families over this. Our whole town is divided over the Bethel doctrine. Those that don’t embrace it don’t even really know what to do. We see our friends involved in something that can only end badly….most people won’t listen when you question it….It is exactly what Derek Prince said. He said that this kind of mixture brings division. One person will see something good and embrace the whole thing, while another sees something bad and throws out the whole thing…and between the two believers, a great divide forms. We just keep praying and warning people….

  50. Johannanoel Sep 27th 2012

    Thank you Brother Andrew for your words of protection to a church that seems to yearn to be sucked into this web of deception.

    I know there is a scripture that says ‘whether false motives or true the gospel is being preached’ Philippians 1:18.
    The problem is the gospel is NOT being preached, the cross is not exalted, repentance is not the key. Please continue and warn the Body.

  51. Alice, I am very glad that God is doing a work of healing and restoration in your life!

    I personally know that it is very discouraging when God is using someone, or some ministry, in your life, and others start to do what feels like ‘bad mouthing’ about them. It can cause a confusion and a hurt, I know.

    However, listen for a minute…..

    Sometimes when we are being personally touched by the Lord we tend (because we’re vulnerable) to have this “all or nothing” attitude.

    I’ll give you an example from my own life. I have a very good friend that went to a Todd Bentley service and was healed of a chronic leg pain. As far as she can figure it would have been exactly the time that Todd was carrying on an affair with his mistress. Does that mean that God didn’t heal my friend? Or was it a counterfeit spirit? Or was it GOD, despite, Todd? I honestly don’t have a real answer for you. Personally I am very concerned for her because she allowed them to lay hands on her.. but that’s my feeling…to be honest, I am still thinking about that, myself. Because of her EXPERIENCE, she is not willing to listen to anything ‘negative’ about Mr. Bentley, because she has an emotional attachment to that meeting when she believes God, healed her. Totally understandable!!

    Again, I honestly don’t have an answer for her, (or you) all I can say is that the facts, are the facts. Please don’t go on your emotions. GOD is setting you free, not a man, or a ministry. If in time, God begins to show you some bad fruit in this ministry, do not assume that the work HE has been doing in your life, is not genuine.

    God does say in His word that “good fruit cannot manifest on bad trees” and vice versa, but the good fruit teaching that is setting you free, is the Word of God, not a certain MAN’S or MINISTRY’S teaching. These men don’t OWN it, God does.

    Tread very, very carefully. Please.

  52. How interesting. Just recently I logged onto the internet and saw some videos of Steve Thompson teaching “Manifest Truths”.

    Understand now that for 22 years Steve Thompson was submitted to and a leader among the “Morning Star Ministries” group out of Charlotte, NC that backed the Lakeland Revival.

    Turns out he is now an integral part of this Bethel Church in Redding, CA. and a teacher with the endorsement of his former ministry “Morning Star”.

    Now let’s turn the clock back to 1997 and me – Thomas Heward – being led by the Lord as a watchman/prophet with a message similar to Dumitru Duduman regarding God’s extreme displeasure with His Body in America. Especially leadership and finding myself traveling throughout the USA and The Lord having me stop in Charlotte, NC and spend 9 months there submitted to and very interested in this ministry headed up by Rick Joyner, Bob Jones and Steve Thompson. While at this Body of Believers I came to refer to Steve Thompson as “Ponytail” since he wore his hair with a “Ponytail”. But to me it was a form of mockery of Steve being part of the largest group of influential “false prophets” in America. During the 9 months I attended this body I received dream after dream and vision after vision of this body and especially their leadership as being “False Prophets”. I printed these dreams and visions on 8.5×11 sheets and would pass them out putting them on their vehicles to their shagrin and astonishment. Of course they had no idea who was putting these rebukes on their vehicles and they had an extensive teaching ministry on the “validity of dreams and visions” and this was flying in their face.

    The Lord told me their message lacked any warning for the American Believer regarding His displeasure with His Church. The “lying behavior and words of these deceived prophets” would never bless America with the Genuine Revival it sincerely needed to avert His Wrath – which will consist of nuclear devastation, military invasion and their citizens taken into captivity to places like Siberia.

    So now “Steve Thompson” originally with the false prophets of Morning Star Ministries headed up by Rick Joyner and Bob Jones has now become an integral part of this Bethel Church in Redding California.

    So it comes as no surprise that this particular church has the “deceived ear of the American Church” even as they did and have had for years listening to Rick Joyner, reading his books and believing the “strange behavior” they endorse is truly of the Lord when in reality it is both “demonic” and born out of the “pits of hell”.

    Tom Heward currently in San Diego California with a call on my life to spark a genuine revival in this nation: would appreciate your prayers.

    The window of opportunity for America to have a genuine revival is closing and the only alternative is God’s Wrath.

  53. Deby, were typing that post at the same time. amen and amen for Alice. You said it better, than I could!

  54. ValS, yes the mixture. That mixture is the problem. I’ve never forgotten when Derek said that.
    God is a jealous God. He won’t share His glory with any man!

    Half truth = ALL error.

  55. I am grateful for how God is using you. Jesus was hated and disliked by many because of preaching the truth. So do not feel guilty for being a Watchman. A girlfriend and I got caught up in everything you are talking about and we are still trying to pick ourselves back up! We had hands laid on us by someone who had wild manifestations but we really thought it was the Holy Spirit. And the leaders didn’t think otherwise. We thought wow this girl really loves God and has went to another level with him. We wanted some of what she had which was her ‘fire anointing’, from God, so we thought. We immediately started having bizarre manifestations that consisted of head shaking, hand movements, body contortions and breathing manifestations all which were Involuntary. We were getting so many confirmations that we thought were from the Lord that he was going to use us in this bizarre way. About a year passed and one of our manifestations, which was when our arms would raise in the air, and we were told that it was God giving us a confirmation on what we were speaking or what the person talking to us was speaking, this hand raising started manifesting when the Opposite of truth was being spoken or when something secular which was contrary to the word was going on. Suddenly these manifestations felt very foul and we decided to test the spirit by asking if Jesus came in the flesh. Because we read in the word that is how to test an antichrist spirit. When we did we both manifested a demon and my friend was hearing ‘lying spirit’. I have been to these conferences you are talking about and everyone I know is caught up in this deception! They are not testing the spirits behind these manifestations they are saying it is the Holy Spirit. You see very bizarre things in these meetings and the ‘anointing’ they are passing on IS transferrable. But ours proved NOT to be of God! Their whole explanation is based on “Well everything that satan does is just a counterfeit of what God already had!” But none of it is biblical! It is disorderly, chaotic, very foul looking , with all the drunkenness and spiritual highs! The Jesus I am reading about in the bible doesn’t speak about being blissed out, wacked out, high, and joyful ALL the time! He speaks the exact opposite! There will be trials and tribulations. My friend and I have been shunned by everyone and told that we should not speak against God’s ‘anointed ones’! There is SO much more to my testimony that I could share but I have four kids and I have a free moment to post a summary of it. People Please beware Andrew preaches truth!!!!!! Test the spirits behind this bizarre move and if you are manifesting any involuntary movements in your body test it to see if it is of God! We are going through Major deliverance because of all the ‘anointings’ that were transferred to us! God Bless you Andrew! You can contact me if you need help in any way!

  56. Bill Johnson just tries to make profound sayings which is a trend i’m seeing with false teachers these days. I’m all for the supernatural but we don’t initiate that, God does. When Peter fell into the trance up on the roof that was initiated by the Holy Spirit for a very specific purpose. These types of things are very rare and are usually given right before a long period of walking by faith! When the Holy Spirit manifest there is an absolute clarity in your mind. A keenness, absolute clarity of ones direction, this drunken glory stuff is nonsense! The reason Christians go running after this junk is they haven’t sowed their life to Christ. They can’t discern their right hand from their left! You have to lose your life to find it, this is just scripture being fulfilled that in the last days they will lay up teachers for themselves that satisfy there itching ears.

  57. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    well, i know we might start to sound like the ‘mutual appreciation club for the ‘debylynnes’ of this world :-/ but i thought the same thing when i came back in and read what you had written, DL. i hope our sister can hear what is in our hearts – your love and mercy was evident to me….amen.
    (i had to go out and drive the truck while my husband walked around picking up the hay he baled yesterday and loaded it on the trailer and just came back in here :-))

    val s – it is a SAD place to ‘live’ – with sorrow in your heart over people you care about. i can tell you one thing – when people you dearly LOVE are ‘deceived’ in something like this, you feel NO superiority about ‘knowing the truth’ – just gratitude and heartbreak simultaneously.

    thomas heward – may the LORD prosper you in what you are seeking to do in His name and for the sake of His body – amen.

    i WILL say something concerning ‘morningstar’ – my husband is a musician (amond other things!) and he was very drawn to the ‘morningstar’ music……but, every time i would start to listen to it – i would end up feeling ‘heavy’ – not ‘encouraged’ – but somehow ‘weighed down’ – it actually reminded me of the music my one son started listening to by a guy, whose name i cannot remember, but, who had been raised in a Christian home but had ‘turned away’ and his music ‘talked’ about God and things of God but if had this DARK side to it – my son’s Bible school teacher told him he didn’t think he should be listening to it and so, our ‘grown’ son asked us to listen and see what we thought…..

    it seemed VERY much the ‘same’ as the m.s. ‘worship’ music to me – heavy and oppressive – even songs that were supposed to be ‘joyful’ had this ‘dark thing’ in them – i couldn’t understand it – i thought, at that time, that m.s. was OF GOD and even though i had the SAME experience trying to read ‘rick joyner’ as i did with bill johnson’s books – i thought it was ‘just me’. (i am an AVID reader) and tried to ‘dismiss’ my feelings of unease.

    when i look back and realize how MANY times the LORD sought to ‘warn me’ but i did NOT heed it – it grieves me – to be so DETERMINED to ‘hang on to a sacred cow’ in the face of such clear warning from the LORD – is absolute STUPIDITY (speaking of myself here) and i am ashamed that it took so much for Him to ‘make me see’ – even then, my husband struggled to still believe there was ‘some good’ in it and the LORD had to really open his eyes – THANK GOD FOR THE FIASCO OF LAKELAND – before he could ‘let go’ – amen.

  58. Deby,

    Jesus and Paul both talk about people who are not necessarily with them but are teaching the gospel. Both of them essentially say it’s not ideal but regardless Jesus is being preached. So though it’s not ideal as the purest works come from the purest vessels (2 Tim 2:21), God can and will use anyone at anytime. Furthermore He does, throughout the bible, use very imperfect people with very grievous sin in their lives to advance His kindgom in some ways.

    We can effectively warn people by exposing the character, intentions and actions of the kingdom of darkness and that doesn’t automatically mean we need to expose individual people. I give room that sometimes it might mean exactly that.

    Mark, I agree with your last comment completely and I appreciate your heart.

    I think mature believers SHOULD be able to eat the meat and spit out the bones.

  59. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    dear ang – i DEEPLY understand what you are referring to – having ‘been there, done that’ although i think you were more ‘in the thick of things’ that we were. may the LORD GOD completely DELIVER you from these ungodly things in JESUS’ name. thank GOD He brought you OUT.

    mark – the truth in what you said ‘hits my heart’. the ‘profound sayings’ thing – i had noticed the SAME thing – not just from ‘them’ but from their ‘followers’ as well as those that we know that have been deceived by the whole IHOP thing……

    these ‘sayings’ are RAMPANT…..and so many of them, when you EXAMINE what they are ‘saying’ ….mean NOTHING – nothing of real value – NOTHING that you can support with the Word of God – they are just ‘supposedly profound sounding words’ that deceive people into thinking that what is being said is like ‘whoa……cool man’ – that’s what it makes me think of……the whole ‘drugged out’ mindset that gets ‘blown away’ by these great ‘truths’ and then they repeat them over and over and over like some sort of mantra…

    it is ESPECIALLY the ‘young’ that are being drawn into so much of this……honestly?? makes me think of ‘hitler’s youth’ – the man was a ‘monster’ but he KNEW what he was doing by indoctrinating the ‘young’ AND we all know who was operating ‘through’ hitler…….selah…………..

  60. Jessebirkey,

    Sorry, but I disagree with your ‘eat the meat and spit out the bones’ statement and your comment about ‘Jesus being preached’ referring to Johnson. Johnson is clearly teaching ‘another Jesus’ [2 Cor 11:3-4]. Paul warns us to mark these people and to stay away from them:

    17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. [Romans 16:17-19, NIV 1984]

    But, I will agree with you that we are to pray for the Bill Johnson’s of the world – and especially for those who are following his teachings.

  61. I am thankful that U obey the Lord and release that which he shows U. I have been attacked in unbearable ways due to confronting the new apostolic reformation, and those that are involved in all this chaos, I have been threatened numerous times, by some that would surprise U. Keep writing and speaking that which is brother. I know a man that is a big wig in the NAR that said in his message a few weeks ago that God put gold dust in his 45 pistol, the crowd just acted so blessed. This is all pathetic. Blessings to U brother Andrew.

  62. DeWayne Sep 27th 2012

    Lord bless you brother, may your love of others rise as obvious as what of them you must declare. Boldly trust with fear and trembling your leading from the Lord, rather than the condemning words of man.
    Oh that the signs of the times could become an awakening… for those with eyes to see, and ears to hear.

  63. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    jesse – i realize what you are saying – i used to think that way myself – as i shared, my husband held onto that mindset longer than i did – but, i wish you would read what derek prince had to say – and others – about ‘mixture’.

    please realize, as well, the ‘gospel’ that was being preached by others WAS ‘the gospel’ – if you examine the scriptures, you will see that their ‘motives’ were very questionable but nothing was said about the ‘message’ being wrong…….but, whenever anyone tried to ‘derail’ the TRUE gospel message – the apostle paul came out ADAMANTLY against these and what they were doing (i.e. that the ‘resurrection had already occured’ and that they still needed ‘to be circumcized’, etc.,) as well as condeming those that brought ‘another gospel’ or ‘another jesus’ and, dear sister, if the ‘gospel’ and the ‘jesus’ they are promoting is NOT the COMPLETE picture of the one given us in the Word of God – then it IS ‘another gospel’ and ‘another jesus’.

    did you know that the ‘new age religion’ has a ‘jesus’, too?? yes, they do. you would be AMAZED if you were to study out what the ‘new agers’ teach and compare that with what is coming out of bethel – i truly think you would, dear sister.

    God bless you and may He lead you into all truth and each one of us here, as well. amen.

    THAT is a huge difference……

  64. Deby, back ‘in the day’ and judging by your comments about your adult children, and Keith Green, etc, you’re probably close to my age…spiritual discernment used to be so much easier for me. I would feel this “peace” or this “heaviness” about a certain piece of music, or a teaching, or ministry.. It was all so simplistic.

    I did line it up to scripture, yes, but even more, I went by ‘a feeling’ I had about something. For a time, this worked well for me.

    Was it just me or was there a shift in the body to where everything was discerned by whatever happened to manifest? In other words, as long as miracles and signs and wonders were happening, we assumed God was behind it all. If you went to a meeting back then and there were LOTS of “healings” and people were all jazzed up and excited, you ASSUMED that it was a God thing!

    The church I was involved with got heavy in to the Dominion teaching and got waaay off into the ditch.

    After that time, it wasn’t as easy for me. My emotions were all over the place and I really realized that I had a general lacking understanding of the Word of God and what it really said…

    I got saved back in the Jesus Movement. I spent most of my life in the Charismatic Movement. I used to be RIGHT IN THERE with all of it, until……and this is interesting to me…until I read my first Rick Joyner book..then it completely changed for me. I remember thinking how ‘different’ this seemed. Then Patrica King came to our church. (she used to go by another name back then, by the way) Almost EVERYONE was totally smitten with her. Everyone, except what seemed like, ME!

    Things began to really change for me then. I became very skeptical and cynical. I thought for awhile, there was something really wrong with me. During this time I went through a painful divorce and for a time I was so disillusioned that I threw most of it out and started to attend a non-Chrismatic church. I’m sure my Charsmatic friends thought I was backsliding. :) It was there that I started to get a little better foundation under me. I was learning the Word of God. However, because they weren’t teaching the WHOLE counsel of God concerning the New Testament church, my time was short lived.

    Slowly, over a process (and also another failed marriage) I began to be broken down and God began to rebuild my faith, from the floor up. I had been following my emotions and feelings for sooo long, that I had no clue that I hadn’t been following the Lord. I loved Jesus, I loved Him more than anything.. but the truth is that I was blind to the fact that I had been open to deception because of the door of my emotions. I am not blaming the charismatic movement for this, I am just saying that those of us that ‘feel’ deeply can be most vulnerable to this stuff.

    It’s really only been the last 5 or so years, that I have a measure of confidence in my understanding of the Word of God, that I am not tossed back and forth by every wind of doctrine and every emotion.

    I do discern, but I don’t trust my feelings or emotions anymore. I try to go to the word, and IT alone. Then if my feelings match, great. If not, no worries, they will always follow my will. I make a decision to believe the Word and the truth of what it teaches.

    For me, it has helped a lot. I still fall into the emotions and ‘signs for confirmation’ way of looking at things, but definitely not to the degree that I used to.

    And oooooh don’t get me started on how I used to run after PROPHECY!! I used to go to almost EVERY meeting “looking for a word”. And yes, I got them…….many of them…and they destroyed my life!

    That way of life completely ship-wrecked me. God in HIs mercy brought me back and set my feet on solid ground. Praise His wonderful, matchless name!! But not before a lot of heartache that I am hoping my Lord can use, to help others.

  65. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    what you shared really spoke to me – there is some deep truth in the analogy you have brought. you said:

    “Rather than putting in the work to grow and persevere in love in one’s relationship with Christ, these false leaders are offering quick gratification and short cut experiences to gain what takes sacrifice, love, responsibility, and commitment.”

    oh.dear.LORD. – that is so CLEARLY CLEARLY what is going on – do you know what it actually reminds me of….

    when satan tried to get the LORD JESUS to bow down to him and THEN, he would give him reign over the ‘kingdoms’ that satan possessed – no going to the cross would be necessary – he could take a ‘shortcut’ and not even have to suffer in the process – just ABANDON the ‘truth’ – ABANDON TRUE WORSHIP – and worship him instead….and He could ‘have it all’…..

  66. Adding to my post above, there were two other manifestations that my friend and I had that several other people at my church had also that I would like to share. We would say Whoa or Ho. Two leaders told us that this was biblical that Ho was in the King James Bible 18 times. Later on I also heard Heidi Baker and Winnie Banov when they had these Exact manifestations! It was very Distracting and I thought wow do I distract people that way when those manifestations come out! Now I am not saying in any way that a demonic spirit is manifesting in Heidi or Winnie. But the spirit behind our manifestations was not of God it was demonic. So it leaves me wondering if they ever tested the spirit behind their manifestations or did they just Assume it was God? Where is the Discerning in this move? I have yet to see any! You mention the enemy to the people in this move and they pretty much cover their ears and say I don’t hear you! I pray that my testimony will move people to use wisdom and discernment and search out for themselves truth! Blessings!

  67. Ang….thanks for sharing what you have! Please don’t laugh.. but my husband and I have been reading and looking at stuff on the origins of pagan Christmas. I can’t remember where I saw it, but they said that in ancient Babylonian there was someone that was “Santa” and he would say “ho ho ho”. I wish I could remember where it is that I read it, so I could quote it.

    That would be very interesting if the two were the same spirit.

    This whole idea that Christmas actually has completely pagan roots is brand new to us, and we just learned about it this week.

    PS Andrew since Christmas is coming up soon – would you be interested in opening up some discussion (and maybe some teaching?) about it?

    My husband and I are very challenged. Neither of us want to offend the Lord concerning it, but we’d sure like to know what other believers think about it?? I honesty had no idea it had pagan roots.

    This whole “HO” thing makes me want to connect the dots!

  68. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    dear DL
    well, surprise surprise, i completely relate to eveything you shared, as i am sure there are many others that come and go here that do….but, i REALLLLLY do…..ALL of it.

    yes. the statement you made:

    “In other words, as long as miracles and signs and wonders were happening, we assumed God was behind it all. If you went to a meeting back then and there were LOTS of “healings” and people were all jazzed up and excited, you ASSUMED that it was a God thing!”

    oh, yes, EXACTLY……and, yet, as the Word of God declares, and we HAD to learn, it seems, the hard way…

    Deut. 13
    1″If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall follow the Lord your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.”

    i think the BIG problem here lies in that people DON’T THINK that these ‘prophets’ are telling them ‘to go after other gods’ but they truly are………merciful LORD, they ARE.

  69. deblynne,

    You wrote, “did you know that the ‘new age religion’ has a ‘jesus’, too?? yes, they do. you would be AMAZED if you were to study out what the ‘new agers’ teach and compare that with what is coming out of bethel – i truly think you would, dear sister.

    Exactly correct. I did just that, i.e. compared Johnson’s teaching to New Age doctrine in this (lengthy series):


    It is a LOT of material; but, I’ve painstakingly selected quotes of Johnson and compared them with various New Age sources. Johnson’s ‘jesus’ sure resembles the New Age one.

  70. DeWayne Sep 27th 2012

    I appreciate your recalling from the bible a small group that were not of believer’s, and these speaking or teaching the words taught by Jesus. Also that the believer’s or Apostle’s saying it was acceptable.
    Where the danger exists is from the misled teacher, teaching both what Jesus taught and also that of Baal, or false teaching. The danger is for the immature of course and not the mature, taking in as a possession false and misleading teaching.

    This is what Andrew is warning about, and the anguish for such a brother was obvious to me.

  71. Thank you debylynne and DL thanks for sharing! I have been researching the pagan roots of Christmas myself! I am definitely going to look into that because it very well could be the same spirit and all of it connect! There are some great posts on here! I am so grateful that people are sharing! Only the enemy gets offended when truth comes out!

  72. Deby, I think the whole idea of those of us that are prone to following emotions isn’t new, but it is certainly a hard sell to some of the people who are following signs and wonders right now. We don’t want to give up our pet manifestations. My feeling is because it thrills us, it actually gives you a high (false of course) and can be quite addictive.

    I believe in signs and wonders. The Word clearly says that ‘they will follow them that believe’ but the Word also talks about another reliable sign that the Spirit of God is moving in the midst…….

    What if the same crowd went into a meeting and rather than all the hype, a deep spirit of sorrow and repentance and weeping and calling out of hidden sin began? What if the prophets began to point to people and with stunning accuracy they were able to reveal the sins of the people? What then? Would thousands of people be drawn to their meetings, would they be talking to their friends about how God threw them on their faces and humbled them to the ground over their sins? I think not. THAT would be revival to me. THAT would be a sign and wonder that I believe would have God’s fingerprints all over!

    Thank you Craig for that research!! I had no idea!

  73. Dunamis Sep 27th 2012

    Just wondering if Andrew Strom followed the scriptures before going to the WORLD with his judgments.

    OR how about the REST OF YOU.

    Did any of you go to Bill Johnson PRIVATELY and discuss that HIS TEACHINGS ARE FALSE AND HE IS SINNING AGAINST GOD?

    Did any of you go to Bill Johnson with 2 or 3 WITNESSES to TELL HIM HIS TEACHINGS ARE FALSE AND HE IS SINNING AGAINST GOD?

    Mat 18:15 NASB – “If your brother sins , go and show him his fault**** IN PRIVATE; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.

    Mat 18:16 NASB – “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

    Mat 18:17 NASB – “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

  74. rozain Sep 27th 2012

    The main issue is the character of Jesus….

    I have seen and been in manifestations that may have looked fleshly from the outside but you knew the Lord was doing a work in you on the inside.

    It is very interesting that in Judaism they teach that the un-Holy is the EXACT reflection of the Holy; the only difference is the influence behind it. As the Lord taught, we shall know them by their fruits; are the manifesting the character of Jesus in their lives, the way they treat others (every person is the image of The Lord)…

    With these manifestations alone, without the character of the Lord seen in the people, it is almost certain the spirit behind them are satanic. I have seen people demonized in places where the focus is on the manifestations and not on following the Lord with everything they have to please Him with their minds, will and emotions.

  75. rozain Sep 27th 2012

    If our hearts are focused on the Lord to teach us – The Lord is our ONLY Teacher, though a man may speak to us – Matthew 23:8-10, we will be taught of the Lord.

    It is easy to discern the flesh of man in operation – the Lord will teach you through His Peace or lack of Peace in your inner man…

  76. Dunamis: YOU ARE BUSTED! You never went to any of us either before you posted this either…:)

  77. Dunamis Sep 27th 2012

    Just asking the questions….

  78. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    dunamis – many have tried – many. most of ‘us’ don’t have any real ‘access’ to the ‘special ones’, but those that do and know the truth HAVE tried, brother.

    you are using a scripture that has to do with ‘personal offense’ between brothers – NOT with ‘mass deception’ being promoted. this is where so many ‘misinterpret’ the Word of God – taking it OUT of context.

    craig – thank you – i look forward to examining what you have found…..

  79. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    dunamis – asking questions if fine – but, brother, you DO have a ‘challenging’ way of doing so and it SOUNDS like ‘accusation’ :-/

  80. Thanks for posting this Andrew – yes it is hard to continue posting warnings about wolves – however, some are called to do just that

    In a comment above someone mentioned that BJ’s Jesus is not the Christ Jesus that we know as God..?

    Absolutely correct, no doubt about it – ‘ask’ google for info. on this: “bill johnson denies deity of Christ Jesus

  81. Bro Andrew– PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE tell me you’ve sat down and fellowshipped with and confronted these Bethel saints before you posted your “expose”! (ala Mat.18) Or are they closed to correction, beyond redemption & not even a part of the Church? (i.e. a new age cult)? Is the Holy Spirit so grieved with their foolishness and against their entire gospel and witness? Just asking…

    But I also wonder– Is the Lord pleased with way we write off weird, wayward churches, from a distance? Are we throwing hand grenades over to their part of the Wall? At what point do we fight FOR our bros & their recovery; and at what point to we fight AGAINST them & undermine them? Just asking…

  82. Dunamis you said: “Just wondering if Andrew Strom followed the scriptures before going to the WORLD with his judgments. OR how about the REST OF YOU.”

    I understand brother what you are saying. I don’t want to minimize the word of God. It DOES say that we should do that.

    But, as I pointed out in my “busted” comment to you, that just can’t always happen in a public forum. Reason being, you and I don’t have access to each other personally, by way of email, to do that.

    So, it brings me to my comment. If a preacher, or a ministry, puts their teachings out publicly (on the internet or whatever) and one doesn’t have access to them privately, (you can say what you will but these big name “prophets” don’t answer email from just average Jo and Joanna – test me on this – email them and see if you get an answer) should one just never challenge their ways and thinking by warning others, publicly?

    The scripture you quoted in Matt does say that, but I can’t help but think that it’s misquoted in this case because that would mean that God would never want us to speak up, unless, or until, we could personally speak with the person.

    It does seem we have missed a step in not talking to them privately, but isn’t speaking out ‘here’ the same as taking it to the church?

    I don’t know Dunamis, but I would venture to say that NOT speaking up is not contending for the faith. We’ve been silent too long, Dunamis. It’s time to speak up. Not the time to be silent and claim Matt. 18.

    Also, “just sayin”

  83. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    david john eden – i know you addressed your remarks to andrew – all i want to say to the last part you wrote….
    we SHOULD ‘fight for them’ in prayer.

    BUT, we should EXPOSE false doctirne OPENLY – brother, think of the INNOCENT – the immature – the young in the LORD – the unknowing – they are the REAL victims here…..

    i can assure you of one thing – i have read of MANY that have approached them TRYING to help them see the error and they are REBUFFED. period.

  84. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    DL – ‘like’ – as to the truth of what you said but ‘unlike’ as to this sadly being the case……it is GRIEVIOUS.

  85. Andrew,
    I can’t thank you enough for your work in exposing the doctrines of demons that have crept into Christianity. The matter is very grave, and it is vitally important to contend for the faith. We can’t allow the New Age movement to redefine Christianity on our watch. The fact is, many Churches and families are being destroyed by the river movement that is promoting the agenda of the New Breed and the New Apostolic Reformation. Many people are completely unaware of the significance of what is going on. Some even say, “what’s the big deal.”

    The big deal is that another Jesus is being presented, along with another gospel, that is clearly building the kingdom of the anti-christ. The doctrinal error is so grave that many sould will be lost to suffer in the lake of fire. The scripture clearly teaches the Saints to come out from the world and to be separate (II Cor. 6). There is a reason for that mandate. When Christians are conformed to the world, their hearts are turned away from worshipping and serving the King of all kings, and the Lord of all lords.

    Thank you Mr. Strom for your faithfullness in proclaiming the Word of God, and in warning the people of God to be holy. You’re making a difference!!!

  86. The judgement of God is at hand and judgement must first begin in the house of God! The reason the scripture says do not desire to be teachers for they will be judged with a harsher judgement. I tell you a truth that these men that have twisted the scripture and allowed men to idolized them will be exposed and removed from there ministry and one who is walking uprightly will take their place~

  87. David: I really like what you said here:
    “But I also wonder– Is the Lord pleased with way we write off weird, wayward churches, from a distance? Are we throwing hand grenades over to their part of the Wall? At what point do we fight FOR our bros & their recovery; and at what point to we fight AGAINST them & undermine them? Just asking…”

    As I read this I was reminded of something the Lord taught me recently.
    I used journal a great deal. If my children were to find my journals, long after I was passed, they would have a completely different view of what I believed, simply because I haven’t journaled for a few years.

    I have grown and changed a lot since then. It could be that some of the things we find on the internet are misrepresentations and things that some of our brothers and sisters USED to believe and have since repented of. Yes, there is a slight chance of this being true.

    However, what if the person being quoted is from their own website, and teaching, and it was from LAST Sunday in their own church? Then what? Do we still stay silent until they repent?

    I guess my logical question is – what about all the innocent people that are going to get deceived in the meantime, while our brother comes to his senses? That’s my only concern. How many people get hurt in the meantime?

    Also, when you claim to be a minster of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, there is a much greater responsibility. I want them to repent and be restored too. But, I would rather warn others. If these ministers get offended, but it spares even one innocent saint from getting caught up in this? Isn’t it worth it?

  88. J Nelson Sep 27th 2012

    Wow! Next time I want to witness to a friend about salvation, I’ll just have the person read this article and the 77 comments. Way to go Christians, and we wonder why they don’t want to be like us.

  89. truthseeker2 Sep 27th 2012

    The things stated in this article are seriously sad, dangerous, ridiculous, blasphemous and pathetic all at the same time. My heart hurts for any vunerable, immature christians deceived by this rot, but angers at the leaders who seem to so boldfacedly lie to the people attending their meetings and perusing their writings. One day there will be judgement for those who led others astray into apostasy and that is what we can rest in when this kind of stuff frustrates us. Andrew is warning and that is good. Forward the article to anyone you know who may be new to this kind of false teaching.

  90. Ang , I found your comments about the manifestation of people saying Whoa and Ho very interesting. I was at a church years ago where that happened alot. It would be several people that would start doing it as I remember and they would repeat it, Whoa…………Whoa……… and sometimes Ho repeated but not like Hohoho, it was like the same word 3 times with a sharp finish in between Ho…..Ho…Ho.

    Anyway after rejecting the whole mess that was going on I found that you really can not un-mix the mixture and that can lead you to extreme conclusions about what took place. So I remember that no one was sure what it meant at church and I prayed and The Father showed me that it was the Holy Spirit all along . It is the meaning of it we missed, Ho is real simple, it is street slang for whore. It means the church, where it is manifesting, is a spiritual whore that thinks she is the bride of Christ. Whoa is a command to STOP. So the Holy Spirit is sending a severe warning and they all seem to think it is just a part of “party-time”.Many of the manifestations are the Holy Spirit sending a message that something is VERY wrong. They take what is a rebuke and warning and think it is part of a normal walk with Jesus.

  91. Oh, speaking of ‘another jesus’, as we were above – here we have yet ‘another jesus':

    Can others see that so much spoken of in scriptural prophecy is now falling into place..?

    From false teachers and false christs to events in the middle east..?

    Should we be surprised that BJ and others have fallen under deception, and are now teaching the same..?

    In the love of Christ Jesus our risen Lord,

  92. i just want to say, i lived it for 20 yrs and got totally brainwashed and more broken than before, now i love god but will never go to church again, i dont live the christian life but i pray to god everyday, im married to a muslim who makes me happy, as for bill johnson, betel and in my opinion the church, its all a sham.

  93. Amen DL! If it weren’t for Andrew Strom and a few others I would still be in deception! Thank you Jesus for sending people to warn me so I could escape the fire!!!!!!! I went to my leaders and my friends several times to reveal everything and I was shunned like I had the plague! My friend even emailed a major man of God whom I do not wish to name and she got NO REPLY!!! So that is where that got us! Thank God for his Watchmen! If you’ve been pulled out of a mess you fully understand and are SO eternally grateful as to the motives of your Christian brothers and sisters. It is to keep the sheep away from the wolves! It is not to be mean or divisive or condemning but to save the ones going astray!

  94. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    J nelson – they say ‘beauty is in the eye of the beholder’ and this causes me to wonder what you ACTUALLY ‘see’ here – perhaps ‘ugly is in the eye of the beholder’ as well??

    what i see here is the ‘body of Christ’ doing EXACTLY as the LORD commanded them to do – we are ‘encouraging’ one another in the TRUTH and ‘encouraging’ one another to BEWARE of the false and ‘helping’ one another to discern the difference…..

    this IS the Body of Christ, caring for one another, not sitting in self-righteous judgment’ of those trying to WARN and PROTECT.

    why in the world would anyone point someone to a ‘subject’ like this in sharing the ‘salvation message of the Gospel’ with them?? this is a place for ‘wrestling’ with HARD things – for learning all we can and ‘not being ignorant of his devices’ to destroy the church…..

    i must tell you, i think you speak foolishly in this and show a real lack of understanding about what the enemy is doing to try and ‘destroy’ the true church.

  95. Ibelieve Sep 27th 2012

    Interesting article, never heard of most of these people.

    Most of the charismatic churches in America are involved in some kind of fanaticism. There appears to be no discernment or understanding of the Bible.

  96. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    thank you, roger, for the information. :-)

  97. yes, spoken to alot of bros & sis about bethel and people who have attended there and even the ones who have gone to there fire tunnels , angel feathers, glory clouds, healing rooms, and so called schools there, it’s always the same answer, you cant tell me i didnt experience that jimbo, and i say ok let’s see what the word say’s about your experience..

  98. Craig,

    Thanks for your response. I understand what you are saying but there is a problem for me in it. Is Paul saying that we are to stay away from everybody who is against ALL of what we believe or just SOME of what we believe? If the former is true then there are very few people that I can be in relationship with because I’m not sure I see eye to eye in every single spiritual issue with anyone….my wife included. If it is the latter then I can agree to disagree and remain in relationship with an appropriate degree of caution. I would lean toward understanding that Paul is more talking about those in complete apostasy but I could be wrong. In the latter way I am still open to God using that person in my life.

  99. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    i am going to check out the radio show you listed and i have bookmarked the sites that craig and i think, roger, listed….thank you all.

  100. JeffM this didn’t just manifest at one church this manifestation happened everywhere we went. And like I said we tested the spirit behind it and it wasn’t of God. We no longer manifest this spirit or any of these wild manifestations since seeking deliverance. And we also did that to for months researching and listening to see the meaning behind it and we had several things that we had come up with. But I will tell you this NOWHERE in scripture does it say that Anyone manifested anything except the people seeking deliverance. No one had body manifestations or voice manifestations unless they were manifesting a demon. God Bless.

  101. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    there are ‘differences’ in personal beliefs about what is taught in the Word of God that do NOT have to do with ESSENTIALS.

    those that are ‘operating’ in and ‘promoting’ demonic activity and calling it GOD – are NOT in that category – they ARE promoting totally UNSCRIPTURAL things – i.e. experiences – they are promoting another ‘jesus’ and ‘another gospel’ – they have NO foundation in the Word of God to ‘support’ these things – they elevate their ‘own supposedly prophetic revelations’ ABOVE the Word of God – over and over and over……..

    i.e. – angels SLEEPING – where do you find that in the Word of God?? no where – as was said, angels WORSHIPING is what you find – angels ‘about the business’ of the Father is what you find – there is NO substantiation for these ‘revelations’ that they ‘claim to have’ and so, how do they ‘determine’ that they ARE of God…..by their own words – how they FEEL – but, the heart is deceitfully wicked’ according to the precious Word of God – we MUST NOT allow our ‘feelings’ to be our ‘barometer’ of what is TRULY of God – we MUST NOT…..or we WILL be deceived.

    the Word of God is our ‘plumbline’ and the precious HOLY SPIRIT will NOT lead us to do or receive ANYTHING that goes ‘against’ what that Word declares. or, may i also say, to ADD TO IT – there is actually a ‘curse’ in the Book of Revelation leveled at those that do so.

  102. J Nelson Sep 27th 2012

    To encourage in the dictionary, means to give support, confidence and hope to someone. Thank you for your wonderful advise to me. Now I will take my “Foolishness and Lack of Real Understanding” and move on. May God richly bless you.

  103. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    ang – amen and amen.

    when i was ‘struggling’ to get free of this and wondering about ‘toronto’ and todd bentley and heidi, etc. i heard about all the ‘animal manifestations’ supposedly going on with ‘believers’ in these meetings, as well as the ‘leaders’ – i remember, i was walking up the stairs in my house, and i asked the LORD – is this YOU?? immediately i heard, “man was created in MY image – NOT in the image of an animal – why would you think that i would desire for My creation to LOWER itself to such a place?? YOU WERE CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD.”

    right after this was when i got ahold of derek prince’s book where he FLATLY lays it out that the ONLY ‘animal manifestations’ he EVER encountered were from those demon possessed – he had ministered much in africa where witchcraft was rampant and had seen these VERY manifestations over and over and over. he warned and warned that this whole ‘movement’ was NOT

    HALLELUJAH to the LORD – when we are truly READY to ‘accept’ the truth and lay aside our idols and men and their deceptive ‘doctines’ the LORD WILL SHOW US THE TRUTH….

  104. Jessebirkey,

    I do believe your analysis is correct with respect to the passage cited in Romans 16. My contention, my firm belief based upon pouring throw many of Bill Johnson’s teachings, is that he is in apostasy. Given that he is teaching ‘another Jesus’ altogether, Johnson’s ‘jesus’ does not even offer salvation. Johnson does not even truly preach the Gospel.

    We are to unite on essentials and not divide over non-essentials. However, in the case of Johnson, his Christology is just like the New Age one – and unlike the true Christian one. There’s no unity between my beliefs and Bill Johnson’s with respect to Christology – one of the true fundamentals of our faith.

    Please read through the articles I posted earlier and check out the references – the books and other material from which I get the quotes. I do believe you’ll find I’ve taken nothing out of context.

    False teaching, tough, is always a mixture; however, a little leaven leavens the whole. This is why false teaching is not always easy to discern (and why Jesus and Paul specifically used this analogy about leaven/yeast). It just looks almost enough to be true. And, those young, immature Christians – or those not yet in the faith – as the most vulnerable.

    I don’t research and write what I do without much forethought and prayer. It would be irresponsible if I were wrong. This is why I’m so very careful in the documentation. I’m certainly not infallible; but, I don’t think I’ve made any egregious errors in the analysis.

  105. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    sorry – i went back to the next to last paragraph to added about derek prince’s warning and i accidentally hit the ‘post’ button!!

    he warned and warned that this whole ‘movement’ was NOT of God and the ‘spirits’ operating were NOT the HOLY SPIRIT.

  106. Around three years ago the church we were in was sending a young woman to Bethel’s supernatural school. My husband and I were the only ones to try to warn against her going. We both had a very strong conviction on us to warn them. Sadly it cost the friendship of her family (at least for now, we live in hope) Ultimately the rest of the church thought we were just being negative so any credibilty we had was destroyed. We have tried to lines open with people but they seem quite happy pursuing the path they were on. Reading your article, Andrew, confirms to me that although that experience was tough and left us despairing it was worth it. These places are only going to get worse. It’s people who need to wake up, not the angels.

  107. Careful folks. Don’t be judgemental about the strange fire charismatic movement or the charismatics are going to come judge you!

  108. Man I kind of have some things to share after reading some comments.

    To the guy who said have you confronted these people, yes I confronted Heidi Baker about it. She responded in a kind of spacey way. I brought up to her how we need to be aware the Satan masquerades as angels of light and his ministers as ministers of unrighteousness. These people are the equivalent of businessmen:

    – They advertise
    – They offer quick fixes
    – What really matters is the bottom line in finances
    -They network because there is power in unity
    – They like growing mega movements and churches
    – I could keep going

    Here is the thing, these people present a facade. God just reminded me of something he showed me. These people manipulate. They present themselves as being accessible, but not so accessible that you ever find what you are looking for. They lead people not so that the people will be able to become mature Christians that don’t need them to walk their walk for them, but instead so that people are always hungry and never filled. For whatever anointing they seem to claim to have their live reflect dysfunction or even greater dysfunction than everyone else. For example:

    Heidi Bakers son (I went to the same college as Him) has a facebook with profanity and weird pictures of dead animals in his photos. That is weird and I can’t completely blame Heidi, but these people allow their selfishness and their “ministry (or I would say business)” become their “god.”

    Example two, I don’t want to name the names or disclose to much because there would be people involved whom I happen to know related to this, but there is a big time pastor in KY who promoted Todd B, his son went through a ton of stuff (the rebellious pastor kid phase or “life” depending on how he will proceed from here).

    The Bible talks about leaders in the church having their family affairs in order.

    And Andrew…… Please respond to my first post….. thanks

  109. Since Bill endorsed Todd maybe Bill can show us about those resurrections from the dead Todd claimed at Lakeland.

  110. Merrill Sep 27th 2012

    Wakey, wakey, churchy, churchy.

    Or how about this one:

    Awake to righteousness and sin not.
    – 1 Corinthians 15:34a

  111. These people are to far removed from their followers. They are not like Jesus who allowed even children to come to Him. They are selling something that we will never be able to get from them, so people chase after them with all their heart and soul. If you meet them, you realize that they are no more holy, no more spiritual, just as worldly, just as dumb (dumber than 90% of the people on this blog, not meaning u guys are dumb, I just mean in general compared to God we as humans are pretty dumb), just as worried, and just as prone to error as everyone else in the human race. But instead of their being humility in Christ, these people place themselves on a pedestal and everyone comes flocking to them for the answers in exchange for your money. Why do they charge to learn how to prophecy, why do their conferences cost hundreds of dollars? Why not do it by donation so the haves can bless and the have not’s can still be blessed? I will tell you why, sin. When we come to Christ we don’t realize how sin is still alive in parts of our heart and how Satan uses that to deflect us from ever finding the true freedom found in Christ. We don’t understand that to God, an ounce of selfishness in our heart can end up reaping thousands of pounds of falsehood and deception if its not dealt with or fed in the case of the “prophets”. I know I am being stern and I know no one is perfect (save Christ) but God is demanding honesty of heart, honesty in the secret places of our heart. Cause here is the deal, if we come to God in repentance but at the same time with a hope or plan of how to make God fulfill the desires of our heart, it results in false leaders manipulating needy desperate people who need a touch from the spirit of God to instead come to them with their support to receive something that these leaders themselves don’t have and don’t want because it will cost them their ego, pride, material wealth, and their last but not least status (I know really bad run on, sorry). All of this is not being said in spite or hate, but rather love for the truth.

  112. No sin is too grave that God willl not forgive (except blaspheming the Holy Spriit, of course). Isn’t it sad we seem not to want to forgive the sinner. Oh we say we forgive the sinner but hate the sin, But, somehow, the sinner keeps getting glued to the sin. This is another reason to always believe God’s word and not man’s faulty emotional counselling. Always, always go to the source. “God Is Love”, not just a loving God. He created each one of us; that’s why He knows us better than we know ourselves.

    I enjoyed what alice, debylynne and DL said about the 1960’s, ministries. We had an employee named Sammy, who had once served a prision term…in Alabama, I think. He was always talking about Keith Greene. (Keith had a prision ministry, and brought Sammy to the Lord.) It was a miracle to see this precious Jewish Believer washed clean of his many sins. Sam was also a musician and the best Disc.Jockey we ever had.

    God’s children, all over this earth, are like a beautiful gigantic tapestry doing our Lord’s business everywhere. Our big challenge is not depending on our emotions in decision makings.,,,emotions are God-given, but it is the Giver we must depend on to guide and lead us through dispare, sorrow, confusion and love. Every lesson learned is a step forward. Our quest is the same, to love Him with all our might and be obedient ahd faithful till the end.

  113. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    maria – you said:
    “Reading your article, Andrew, confirms to me that although that experience was tough and left us despairing it was worth it. These places are only going to get worse. It’s people who need to wake up, not the angels.”

    amen, dear sister. very sorry for all you have suffered – and seem to have lost – i understand……but, you are exactly right in what you have shared here.

    david – thank you again for sharing what you KNOW of this.

    hmmm – amen!! so much of what was ‘reported’ from there turned out to be false…..

    i remember bill johnson ‘rebuking people’ for criticizing some of what they were seeing with bentley….one of his challenges was this, ‘have you seen todd bentley with is wife? have you seen him with his children? – well, i have’ he said and he went on to rebuke people that were saying ‘things were not right’ since ‘he, bill’ had SEEN them personally and KNEW what manner of husband/father/man todd bentley was…..well, surprise surprise – turns out he was an adulterer and what is even more frightening is that these ‘so-called prophets’ DIDN’T EVEN KNOW…..now, that bears some thinking about.

    the whole time they stood up there and ‘prophesied’ all these great things over bentley, he was in blatant sin……no wonder bill johnson HAD to come out and ‘endorse’ todd bentley again in 2011 – to do otherwise would be to make himself a ‘false prophet’.

    i know, we don’t want to go ’round and round’ these same scenarios again, makes me depressed just thinking about all the lies, but, as long as there are people being drawn into this and deceived we really have no choice.

  114. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    dear joan w.
    you said
    “No sin is too grave that God willl not forgive (except blaspheming the Holy Spriit, of course). Isn’t it sad we seem not to want to forgive the sinner. Oh we say we forgive the sinner but hate the sin, But, somehow, the sinner keeps getting glued to the sin.”

    dear sister – i don’t understand how you mean this as it pertains to this deception??

  115. Thanks Debylynne, one of the hardest things to see is people you love get sucked in or that agree with you but are too scared to say anything in case they look “negative” as well. We left that church which was hard. But it hasn’t been all bad.
    We’ve had to depend more on the Lord and it’s been great for dealing with our pride!

  116. Matthew Chojnacki Sep 27th 2012

    The Knowledge of God (AKA Eternal Life) does not stop at the Bible, it is a lifelong adventure that can reveal things that Bibliodalators may not find explicitly stated. 528 Hz is in the Bible, but it’s hidden beneath the surface. Life is a balance between intellect and intuition, so don’t get stuck hopping on one leg by only believing what your eyes can see in the Bible. If it’s compatible with Scripture, but not explicitly stated, then it isn’t immediately unBiblical and heretical. This article was written with a huge imbalance of left-brained analytical energy instead of a balance between Scripture and revelation. You bring too many railing accusations against men of God.

  117. Averyl Sep 27th 2012

    Jessebirkey, – I agree that sometimes the only loving response to those who believe differently and are close to us is to “agree to disagree”.

    Brother Paul, – Well said. These charming preachers have a bewitching charisma. The Apostle Paul, in contrast, was the opposite.

    Deceiving angels? Another example of extremity!

    Has anyone read the book ‘Deceived on Purpose’?

    2 Thessalonians 2, especially verses 9 – 11, “…with all power and signs and wonders , and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie…”

    Why? Because they want feel good spirituality and don’t want the whole truth.

    julie, – no-one has yet replied to your post, so I will just say that you did not need to ‘throw out the baby with the bath-water’.
    Most of us have been damaged & disappointed with our ‘church’ experiences.

    The Lord Jesus Christ is a loving & good God. He only allows His people to suffer in order to test & teach us.

    The true Church is the Body of Christ on earth and is supposed to be the manifestation of its Head, – all good!

    Perhaps you have compromised yourself in marrying a Muslim.
    I wonder if he would make you so happy if you were a practicing Christian. Islam hates Christianity, not so much because of its apostate state but because it is jealous of its Jewish roots as God’s chosen people.

    And by the way, endtimes expert Jack van Impe is saying that the Koran states that the prophet Jesus will behead those who don’t agree to worship Allah in the New World Order under Islam, – (making Jesus the ‘false prophet’ of Revelations).

    What do you think of that?

    God bless us all, and thanks Andrew for continuing to keep this site open to us.

  118. Ed Mitchell Sep 27th 2012

    Hi Andrew,

    Don’t listen to the naysayers. Bill Johnson is dishing out DOCTRINE of DEMONS and the people who open themselves to these fake “anointings” will get demonized from it.

    Keep exposing these last days HUCKSTERS! Devils disguised as
    men and women! Demonic deception that is deceiving many!

    Praise Jesus He will keep you if you seek His face!

  119. Whenever I hear or read heresy hunters, I want to learn from them what revival and the power of God are to them. Andrew Strom, what is your definition of the power of God and revival? Have you ever experienced revival? When? What was it like? Which revivals in the past do you recognize as from God? Every article like Andrew’s against others should include the writer’s spiritual successes which surpass in Messiah the one he’s bashing. My point is that we can always point the finger, even as it was pointed at Y’shua and Yonah the Baptist (“We piped to you and you did not dance; we wailed and you did not mourn”). Isaiah spoke of those who by a word make a man out to be an offender. If people are getting healed, saved, and raised from the dead, and the glory is going to God, can’t we just love one another and get along? If one bashes another then define and go on about how you do things better and get better results. I hate negative political ads; why tell me how bad another is? Tell me what you will do and how you will fix things. The same is true in this relm of fait: When Yonah the Baptist sent his disciples from Macharius fortress to ask Y’shua, “Are you the one or shall we wait for another,” Y’shua did signs and preached to the poor and said, “Go tell Yonah.” “Outdo one another in zeal,”…”but if you bite and devour one another, be careful you are not consumed by one another.”

  120. Merrill Sep 27th 2012

    Or again:

    By their fruits you shall know them…
    – Matthew 7:16

  121. Christian journalist Sep 27th 2012

    Thank you Andrew for the warning which you have conveyed in the article. So do not be distracted when people say stop writing about what is taking place within the western church. There are too and far between watchmen in the 21st century church who are alert, keep watch and give warning.
    The Lord had instructed me to be one of His watchmen and have done so fro the last 21 years until recently was told to step down and take refuge in the Body of Christ and to come out from those who preach another gospel who make claims that they are the “anointed ones.”
    Let us look at the occultist practices which this guy and his wife who is proclaimed to be a co-pastor are involved with…
    Antics such the phenomenon of drunken glory, fire-tunneling, laughing like hyenas, jerking, gold-dusting, angelic type anointing, spiritual drunkenness, going in and out of portals, visualization, spirit-travel, angel-orbs, etc.
    These are the main throb of New Age techniques, and demonic.
    I understand Andrew what the Lord is saying through you about these kinds and types of spirited behaviour taking place. I can witness to these things as a former medium and clairvoyant and having studied parapsychology, to inlude the Black Arts.
    But who wished to take note past and present when christians say that they believe what these charlatans do and practice because they are celebrities and know better. They are the ones leading what is deemed to be the world wide revival taking place. Misleading, unbiblical, and dangerous!
    On the 29th September at Wembley Football Stadium, London, a man made organised rally is taking place called “The Global Day of Prayer and Worship.”
    The organisers want the stadium to be filled with 80,000 people. They have not reached that target figure. so what have they done to get bums of seats. A few weeks ago tickets could be bought at an early day fee. That offer has ended. The orginal ticket price price is £15 plus £1 booking fee.
    The next stunt is to have a Gideons Army of 300. What does this mean? If you are willing to give £1000 or more one will be able to attend the VIP Leaders Reception. As this has been over subscribed those who have gave this amount, or more, will be given a ticket to the Royal Box on Saturday.
    See link…
    These are the invited and paid worship leaders…
    Notice who they are having themselves involved with the Word of Faith Movement, the Charismatic Movement, plus Restorationism and so forth
    These are the names of the team leaders…
    It is suggested that you check them out for yourselves. For example, Gerald Coates is a leading proponent of restorationism and embraced the Toronto Blessing and imparted it onto others.
    In talking to some christians going, I am sorry to have to say they are going for the entertainment because they like the songs by Graham Kendrick, Noel Richards, Hillsong, etc.
    It is a one off for 2012 which has been for 2011 when it was held at West Ham Football ground and the years before that at other venues.
    The tactics for obtaining money are similar to that which goes on christian tv channels such as God TV, Inspiration TV, DayStar TV, etc.
    And it is understood that Revelation TV is televising the London event. This tv station gives support to WoF, false teachers such as Joyce Meyer and her multi million dollar organistion, Sid Roth a false prophet, the Seventh Day Adventist Church and other erroneous teachers who call themselves christians and have the “anointing.”
    What is happening, tearing, and dividing the christian church is the way it has been infiltrated, abused, and used by wolves in sheeps clothing.
    There is more to come which will bring the church into more turmoil and disarray. And why? It is because the christian church would rather have its ears tickled than follow the Lord Jesus Christ.
    The Lord Jesus is coming for His Bride and not an institution full of goats who wander about following this and that doctrine to pleasure themselves.

  122. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    matthew c – what utter rubbish.

    edwin – obviously you haven’t been around here very long or you would have a much better ‘idea’ of what andrew considers TRUE revival…..i’ll give you one clue…..it WON’T look like a ‘sideshow’ – it WILL be steeped in REAL repentance and the preaching of the TRUE gospel which elevates the LORD JESUS CHRIST and NO man………….

    John the Baptist did NOTHING in ‘contradiction’ of the Word of God.

    those things that people WANTED to say the LORD JESUS did that were a seeming ‘contradiction’ were because they knew ONLY the ‘written law’ and NOT the HEART of the ‘lawgiver’ – JESUS CAME TO SHOW US THE FATHER …..his HEART.

    what these men and women are doing is totally ‘setting aside’ the Word of God for their OWN gospel and leading many astray….and what does the Word of God say about this??

    that it would be better for them to have a ‘millstone’ tied around their neck and be drowned in the depth of the sea than to CAUSE one of these little ones that believe on HIM to stumble……

    may God have mercy on them and may they repent before it is too late.

    so many want to ‘defend’ the ‘offenders’ – what of the victims?? what of them??

  123. Edwin,

    Obviously, I am not Andrew and he can speak for himself. But, I don’t think your assumption that unless you have experienced a true revival, or that you have any idea how a TRUE revival should be conducted, that you can’t speak out against error.

    While I have witnessed a lot of really wild things in my day, I cannot say that I have experienced a TRUE revival. Much of what I saw (and sadly experienced) was called a ‘revival’ by some, however, I haven’t found these things in the Word of God, so I now reject them as such.

    I cannot say that I have one clue how a REAL revival should, or should not be conducted, however, I still believe that I have been given the discernment from God’s Word to know how a revival does NOT look.

    The better questions in my mind are where are any of the buzz words that describe these so-called “revivals”, in the Bible? To name just a few: “holy laughter, “drunken glory”, “fire tunnels”,
    “soaking”, “manifestations of barking dogs and other animals sounds”, “visitations of angels”.

  124. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    wise words, averyl. i honestly did not know how to respond to her post and i’m glad you did…..
    YES, i have read ‘deceived on purpose’ by Warren B. Smith – i have his other books, as well. very informative concerning the ‘new age’ practices and how they have infiltrated the church under the guise of the ‘new thing’ and ‘purpose driven’.

    ed mitchell, sadly, you are right.

    merrill – AMEN!!

    thank you, for the information, christian journalist – much appreciated.

  125. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    christian journalist
    MARANATHA, indeed!!

  126. Mark Andrew Sep 27th 2012

    Matthew Chojnacki,

    If we are born-again believers, there is to be no balance between our minds and intuitions for arriving at revelation. Both mind and intuition belong to the same, fallen soulish realm, over which our born-again spirits should have dominion. We can only receive spiritual – as opposed to intellectual – revelation from the Bible, because our born-again spirits allow us to hear from the Holy Spirit.

    Mark Andrew

  127. Dunamis Sep 27th 2012

    Mat 12:24 NASB – But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”

    Mat 12:25 NASB – And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, ” Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

    Mat 12:26 NASB – “If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

    Mat 12:27 NASB – “If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges.

    Mat 12:28 NASB – “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    Mat 12:29 NASB – “Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

    Mat 12:30 NASB – “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

    Mat 12:31 NASB – “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

    Mat 12:32 NASB – “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

    Mat 12:36 NASB – “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in THE DAY OF JUDGMENT.

    Jesus is speaking to HEBREWS….they KNOW when the Day of Judgment is.

    TODAY, YOM KIPPUR, is the Day of Judgment. It happens EVERY YEAR. It is called the holiest day of the year by God Himself in His scriptures.

    Every year there is 40 days prior to Yom Kippur to REPENT and PAY RESTITUTION to those you have sinned against.

    Then on Yom Kippur…..God proclaims the appropriate JUDGMENTS for those who have not REPENTED.
    Every year those Judgments come down upon unrepentant people……regardless if they believe their Creator and His Laws or not.

    For those who walk in righteousness, Yom Kippur is the Day in which PROMOTIONS are given out by God.
    Look it up in your bibles….it is called THE DAY OF ATONEMENT.
    If you believe God’s Word, then this coming year of your lives is being mapped out by God TODAY.

    God’s Judgments have not changed from the OT and NT. They are still the same because He is still the same.

    The NT states that the only way to FULFILL ALL THE LAW is to Walk under the AUTHORITY of the Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit doesn’t forget the Law nor make mistakes.

  128. Dunamis Sep 27th 2012

    If I didn’t know any better, I would think that the “god” of the people behind these comments DIED and stayed DEAD and left THEM in charge of the kingdom.

    Really??? Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are too small, too POWERLESS to do THEIR OWN JOBS in the Kingdom, that they have to RELY UPON MERE MORTAL MAN TO “PROTECT” PEOPLE AND TO “CORRECT” PEOPLE AND TO “SAVE” PEOPLE ?

    Maybe the JOB DESCRIPTIONS in scripture are not clear enough Father……..

    God OPPOSES the PROUD. The Judgments upon the Proud and Arrogant is their hearts and souls become BLIND, DEAF, AND DUMB to the Holy Spirit.

  129. Andrew – please, please keep warning what lies behind this spiritual phenomenon taking place in the church. Keep preaching the Gospel message as well. And kindly enourage those who are prepared to listen.
    To debylynne – thanks for your comments.
    To christian journalist – I have every empathy in what you shared. People would rather be entertained than getting down on their knees to seriously pray for the nation to repent and calling the christian church into repentance.
    Remember Robbie Williams the celebrity pop singer, followed and adored by millions. This is his song:-

    May the Lord Jesus come soon!

  130. Andrew, thank you for this article and all you do.

  131. Mark Andrew Sep 27th 2012

    Dunamis, In light of your comment that God is sufficiently powerful, which is of course true, why do you then call yourself “Dunamis”?

  132. Dunamis, you said

    “God OPPOSES the PROUD. The Judgments upon the Proud and Arrogant is their hearts and souls become BLIND, DEAF, AND DUMB to the Holy Spirit.”

    I believe Jesus put this on your mind , but it was meant for your own self-examination.

  133. Dunamis Sep 27th 2012

    Why do people call themselves Christian?

    Would you prefer “dung heap”?

    A dung heap is what every man, woman, and child is in their corrupted minds and souls.

  134. Dunamis Sep 27th 2012

    My comment says BLIND, DEAF, AND DUMB TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, JeffM.

    Are you speaking for the Holy Spirit?

  135. Wow. I’ve read almost every single post. There is so much written and it makes me want to write so much in response … but I’ll try to be brief :)

    ANDREW !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    PLEASE KEEP REPORTING any and all new manifestations and/or teachings from Bill Johnson, Crowder, Heidi Bakker, Che Ahn, et al.

    Because new people are continuously being exposed to these teachers / teachings, and people DO look to the web for help and background checks.

    It was only because of Revival School in the early 2000’s that I found that I was not the only one who thought these teachers were way off, as I read your warnings and found other members who directed me to where I could find the False Teachers teachings.

    Shortly after my finding Revival School, I transcribed word for word some of the Lakeland teachings, as they were being spoken live on GodTv. I still have these transcriptions on my Blog. These transcriptions helped many to SEE EXACTLY what these False Teachers believe and promote.

    Nobody from this generation, at the End of this Age of Grace, will be able to stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and state, “I didn’t know they were false teachers. Lord, Lord, let me in”. We don’t just have the Bible any longer to show us what is correct doctrine, but false teachers own words can now be read on-line, and should be posted on-line to help those who may not yet know their Bible but are sincerely trying to make sense of these very troubling and un-biblical new teachings / manifestations!!!!

    Commenters have written … and many say to me personally:
    “Eat the Meat, Spit out the Bones” or “Nobody is perfect so don’t judge”, and so on.

    But the Bible says the exact opposite:

    Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? – 1 Cor 5:6

    I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; AVOID them. – Romans 16:17

    But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! – Galatians 1:8

    Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have NOTHING to do with him. – Titus 3:10

    If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do NOT take him into your house OR welcome him. 2 John 1:10

    3-If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4-he is conceited and understands nothing. … 11- But you, man of God, FLEE from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. – 1 Timothy 6

    WATCH your life AND DOCTRINE closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers – 1 Timothy 4:16

    Note, that it is another man-made “doctrine” that says, “Eat the Meat, Spit out the Bones”. This statement allows deception right into our Churches … in the name of “love” and “tolerance” !!! This is not Biblical. God warns us to STAY AWAY from False Teachers and their teachings. Why? Because we humans CAN be deceived. And deception leads us right into hell. A little error with Truth WILL HARM US and screw up our entire theology.

    And to DAVID who asked of Andrew:
    “I want to hear your response to my comment (please do it in as much depth as possible; I realize you have a lot of comments but I want to know what you think of the correlation I made connecting this stuff to spiritual “sexual” sin)”

    Your comparisons are actually VERY BIBLICAL, as shown when God called the Israelites whores, who were whoring after / committing adultery with other gods:

    The house of Israel and the house of Judah have been utterly unfaithful to me,” declares the LORD. – Jeremiah 5:11

    3- …you have lived as a prostitute with many lovers— would you now return to me?” declares the Lord. …
    4- Have you not just called to me: ‘My Father, my friend from my youth, 5- will you always be angry? Will your wrath continue forever?’ This is how you talk, but you do all the evil you can.” … 6- During the reign of King Josiah, the Lord said to me, “Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7- I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8- I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. 9- Because Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood.” — Jeremiah 3

    Jeremiah speaks very much about what the current church, pastors, and prophets are doing right now.

    As shown in Jeremiah 23:
    14- And among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah.” … 16- This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. 17- They keep saying to those who despise me, ‘The Lord says: You will have peace.’ And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts they say, ‘No harm will come to you.’ ”

    Yes, currently charismatic church people are adulterers and adulteresses, longing for quick carnal satisfaction and stimulation.

    4- You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5- Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: “He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us”? – James 4.

    Lusting after spiritual power, lusting after the power to prophesy at will, lusting after another “feel good” meeting which leaves us laughing, shaking, being prophesied over, while the world is perishing …
    Can God be happy with this?

    Why is there sometimes some good teaching that comes from these guys? Why do some healings actually take place (if there are any true healings)? Why can the worship seem so good at times?

    Mixture. Singing any Scripture, WILL bring the good “feelings” of the Holy Spirit because the Word and the Spirit agree. But does that mean God is approving of the teachings or the teachers.

    I have posted Derek Prince’s book, “Protection From Deception” in full on my Blog, here:

    This is a very serious discussion, for these End Times, as deception will only get worse. So bad, that if possible, to deceive even the Elect. So be on guard Christians, and learn to LOVE the Bible and learn to accept and believe what the Bible states even if your flesh doesn’t like it! We must read the Bible AND obey it too (John 14:15,21).

    Loving, believing, and obeying the Word will keep us from deception.

    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us – John 1:14

    Watch your life AND doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because IF you do, you will SAVE both yourself and your hearers – 1 Timothy 4:16

    Blessings on all who love God’s Truth,
    IsChristSoonToReturn.blogspot.com (and/or wordpress.com)

  136. follow Jesus by the Spirit not men.

  137. Dunamis , the Holy Spirit speaks for himself, to any who will listen. I can see what The Lord speaks to me , if I will listen and obey. I can not be the Holy Spirit speaking to you, I can be used by Jesus in what He is doing though.

  138. Dunamis, I am sincerely wondering. Do you want encourage your brothers and sisters? Or do you just want to stir the pot?

    Your posts, though you quote a lot of scripture, seem to be cryptic and when asked for clarification, you change the subject.

    I am sure you can add value to the conversation, but if you insist on tossing out words like “dung heap” LOL LOL to describe Christians, do you really think you’re going to be respected and heard?

  139. Mark Andrew Sep 27th 2012

    Dunamis, To answer your question, I can only say no. Mark Andrew

  140. I am thankful for Andrew’s warnings. Hopefully, young people will heed the message. I lived through (barely) several years of attending Bethel back in the 90’s. The simplicity of the Gospel is lost in a sea of mind numbing, complicated “enlightenment” mumbo jumbo.

    One trouble with what goes on there is the cult-like mind control–very subtle but none the less true. If you do not go along with all the stuff, you are an outcast and not to be trusted. When I look back on my experience, I see a huge and subtle trap of my own pride that I fell into. Everyone aspired to be a big apostle or prophet (including me!) I have often wondered what the whole thing would look like if suddenly all manifestations were gone–I think the whole movement would crumble. If Bill Johnson as the leader would suddenly say–OK, no more outward manifestations., the glory seeking, yahoo crowd would fade away–no more excitement.

    Perhaps God is allowing the whole thing to test our hearts. I do pray for Bill Johnson that he will meet the real Jesus. I hold no ill will toward him or his family– but trust them or their teachings? Absolutely not.

    Keep up the good work Andrew.

  141. Thank you for your article. We need discernment to see the false hole spirit and its fake fruits.

  142. Andrew- God bless you and thank you for sounding the alarm, and giving Bible verses to back up what you say! If it were not for God giving me discernment { of which I sought and prayed for }, as well as an extremely vivid dream about many NAR “leaders”, then I may still be sitting in those conferences with Rick Joyner and the whole NAR peeps! Thank you Jesus / God for opening my eyes and I pray also that God will open the eyes of many who are caught up in this movement. May we who LOVE God be able to discern the bad, and the good in this hour! Also, I pray that those who have been involved in any deception within the “Charismatic Church”, NOT trun our back on the gifts which God has given to us! May we join the TRUE Church of God and use our gifts as did the early Church in Acts<3!

  143. David Marsh Sep 27th 2012

    Hi one and all,
    Andrew, the article you present here is extremely disturbing. It seems that God is showing the world just how foolish the 5 unwise virgins are.

    It is interesting to see the polarization of the 2 groups of Christians.
    1. The foolish ‘virgins’ are diving head long into these ‘spirits’ – whilst almost rejecting totally the Word.

    2. The Bride or 5 wise virgins are also seeking but they are seeking the true Holy Spirit. They will eventually have the strong ’emphasis on the word’ which will gird them with God’s truth, in the area of walking with Him in the Spirit, as His BRIDE in these last days – to fulfill Mat.24:14.

    The foolish virgins still, will not recognize the BRIDE when she appears in the earth, and even if they do, they will have run out of time to prepare themselves.

    The Word and the Spirit must come together to prepare the BRIDE.

    God bless

    David Marsh

  144. Mark Andrew Sep 27th 2012

    Amen to that Lisa! “When two or more agree ..”

  145. Matthew 24:27-28

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    27 For when the Son of Man does come, it will be like lightning that flashes out of the east and fills the sky to the western horizon. 28 Wherever there’s a dead body, that’s where you find the vultures.

  146. Dunamis said:

    “God OPPOSES the PROUD. The Judgments upon the Proud and Arrogant is their hearts and souls become BLIND, DEAF, AND DUMB to the Holy Spirit.”

    Is it the same spirit that was behind THIS claim made by Bill Johnson-endorsed buddy Todd Bentley?


    Dunamis, if I read your posts correctly it seems that you are a Bill Johnson apologist. Could you please show us the evidence of these 21 resurrections from the dead? Surely Bill would have proved such a bold claim like this before endorsing Todd Bentley, no?

  147. Andrew Sep 27th 2012

    LISA – What a great comment when you said-

    “I pray that those who have been involved in any deception within the “Charismatic Church”, NOT trun our back on the gifts which God has given to us! May we join the TRUE Church of God and use our gifts as did the early Church in Acts!”

    I totally agree.

    The deception is serious.

    But it is just as serious to let that “put us off” the gifts and ministry of the Holy Spirit.

    Let us seek the “true thing” – in all its fulness – not go to the “anti” extreme!

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  148. sharron Sep 27th 2012

    If you don’t know what the word has to say…you can get caught up in it…easily deceived !!!!
    Even the very elect could be deceived !!! I have been there I know !!!
    , ANDREW !!!!

  149. Mark Andrew Sep 27th 2012

    On the wikipedia entry for Bill Johnson it says,

    “In 1995 Johnson attended the Toronto Blessing revival at the Toronto Airport Vineyard church. Johnson relates: “In Toronto I said, ‘Lord, if You touch me again I will never change the subject.’ So I went up for prayer every time it was offered. I didn’t have anything dramatic happen, but I came home and said, ‘I am going to give the rest of my life to this.'”

    Whether this is accurate or not, it is major mistake to say we will give our lives to anything or anyone but Jesus.

  150. God gives us a way to cleanse the Church today as well as in Paul’s day.

    1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
    7 ¶ Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
    8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

  151. This is really getting long, but wanted to mention something that happened here that will underscore the strangeness. A man came up here from Bethel and did some healing meetings. He called out a woman from the congregation. Little did he know but this woman was NOT a Christian. She was simply looking for healing for a serious illness she had. He told her to start laying hands on people and praying for them. They did not use the name of Jesus, but simply spoke to the sickness and told it to leave. This woman was healed….she was the main agent in the healing meeting, ministering to the group…..now if this is not weird, I dont know what is! So we cant look at signs….I would rather have the truth and stay sick, walk with God, and know Jesus as my intimate friend, than go with this craziness, even if it can *work miracles*…..we have to be very wise and very careful in our day!

  152. Karen R Sep 27th 2012

    I understand the need to be aware of deception but I find that any charismatic ministry that I have ever googled has sites like this ready to criticize each and every one. MY Q would be have you ever read thier books or attended a service with an open mind? I personally have heard Bill Johnson in person at least 6 or 7 times plus many others that I am sure you would criticize. I listen to who gets the glory – it is all Jesus. I listen to the message- it is all about total surrender and obedience to God. I look at the fruit- and see so many people who have grown closer to Jesus, who have become aware of God’s love for them, who are being healed and delivered. Can these critical websites say the same? I prefer to keep the meat and spit out the bones but not to dismiss ministers like Bill Johnson, based on a few little things that may seem “out there” No one is forced to do or even believe these things. And often one little thing will be told over and over through hearsay and the many , many wonderful things that happen are never talked about.

  153. Wow, ValS !! That is an extremely interesting story! In my opinion, it sounds like demonic healings.

    And to KarenR, the whole “eat the meat, spit out the bones” is contrary to biblical doctrine, as I wrote about earlier in this post.

    Again, Derek Prince answers questions about the mixture going on in the present day charismatic church. He wrote the book after being taken to the Toronto Airport Fellowship.

    You can read the entire booklet at:

    One quote from the booklet:
    “It is important to understand that there is an order in God’s creation.Man was created in the image and likeness of God to exercise authority over the animal kingdom (see Genesis 1:26). Man is, in fact, the highest order of the creation described in the opening chapters of Genesis. This has a bearing on the way the Holy Spirit blesses us. He uplifts those whom He blesses. … He will never degrade a human being by causing him to act like an animal” (re: barking like dogs, or even roaring like lions as seen in Bethel / Harvest Rock. And I have first-hand experience at seeing such, so I know of what I speak here.)



  155. Linda D Sep 27th 2012

    Good on you Andrew for sounding the alarm, I know it really hurts you to do it, however brother, it would hurt more if you didn’t!! so please don’t stop because of the flack you receive, just think of the Christians that are sincerely wanting to know and follow the Lord that will now question these demonic ministries that they are involved in after reading your article!!! sure they may react at first…. but because of your warnings, you introduce doubt into their hearts and minds and if they really do want the things of God the Holy Spirit will bring home the truth to them!!

    It seems the Lord allows these ministries to continue so He can sought out the ones that truly want HIM.

    A little story…..A friend of mine went to see H Baker speak recently and was shocked when he was observing her away from the lights after she had spoken (he was seated just near where she was standing in the backround) he saw her turn a pale colour and her face contort into demonic looking features. Funny thing is after he told me I had only read the exact same thing from someone else that had observed the same thing from a different conference, so I praise the Lord that he allowed my friend to see this because it pulled him up and made him question all of this stuff!!!
    The Lord has His way of revealing truth to His own, weather it is people like you sounding the alarm Andrew, or in dreams, or while reading the Word….many ways, however we must all be diligent and pray for a love of the truth, and don’t let us think we can’t be deceived ourselves!!!! we must earnestly seek the Lord to keep us from all deception and I think it starts with being honest with ourselves and not trying in anyway to deceive others about who we are, like trying to convey or portray an image of yourself to others….like I’m very humble, or clever and smart, or loving etc. that is hypocrisy and we all have to deal with that because we want to be loved and accepted, however if we are deceitful on that level we are able to be deceived ourselves because we are not honest and open……I hope you get my drift here!!! if we are honest we all have to deal with these issues, it has been through the teaching of Zac Poonen that has challenged me in this very area.

  156. pimpernel Sep 27th 2012

    Thank you Andrew. We must all love the Word of God and cling to it, and believe only what the Word says, not Man, if we want to be saved.
    Also, Bill Johnson might SAY very biblical things but what does he DO???? On our deeds will we be judged and that includes me!!!

  157. Karen R–I hear what you are saying–give these ministers the benefit of the doubt so to speak. Unfortunately, it’s the young people who are hurt in the mess. To hear Bill Johnson 6 or 7 times as you say you have may not be enough to pick up on the error. Please, dear one, pray for discernment. I was there over 2 years and heard hundreds of teachings before I saw the truth. I was young, blinded by an evil spirit and Biblically illiterate. Biblical Christianity was not taught–I know that now because I attend a Bible teaching church (it feels “clean” there) that also teaches the gifts are for today. Amen!

    God bless you all.

  158. DeWayne Sep 27th 2012

    I will repeat, Andrew throws no one as judgment into death, the love and anguish in obeying the Lord should have been obvious.
    A warning is not death to the soul, the word promises out of disipline the obedient finds life.
    What I worry, in recent years, observing deafness and blindness that allows no spiritual healing.

  159. Edwin S. Sep 27th 2012

    Andrew, You may have a slew of fighting fundies giving you amens who believe that many gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased in the first or second centuries, and that if certain gifts manifest today, it is of Satan. So thank you for your warning not to dispise any gifts ot the Holy Spirit. Yes, let us not only assent to believe in these gifts, but let us seek them according to 1 Cor. 12:31&14:1. If a great King is giving gifts, let us not refuse his graciousness and so insult Him. And 1 Cor. 13:10 refers to Messiah’s second coming, not to the canonization of the Bible.
    Why not write about the righteous things Bill Johnson does instead of lambasting him? At the beginning of Andrew’s original letter above, Andrew states that he agrees with some thngs that Bill promotes (like witnessing on the street using healing and prophecy). How many other pastors do this? Does yours? Do you? Instead of pounding your computer keys to cut down a fine gentleman, why don’t you hit the streets and lead a few people to Y’shua yourself? You will grow more and you will have more crowns to cast at His feet. The followers of these dreaded charismatic leaders are probably praying, casting out demons, and studying the word instead of removing mites from the vineyard workers’ eyes.

  160. Edwin said; “Do you? Instead of pounding your computer keys to cut down a fine gentleman, why don’t you hit the streets and lead a few people to Y’shua yourself? You will grow more and you will have more crowns to cast at His feet. The followers of these dreaded charismatic leaders are probably praying, casting out demons, and studying the word instead of removing mites from the vineyard workers’ eyes.”

    Not trying to beat up on you Edwin, but why is it always assumed that if you speak out against something, you couldn’t possibly be bringing forth good fruit, yourself!? Why do you assume that any of us speaking out, are not praying, leading people to Jesus, casting out demons, praying for sick, giving words of knowledge/wisdom, prophesying, and for all YOU know, raising a few people from the dead? LOL
    Why is it an assumption that the nay sayers are only sitting plucking at our keyboards??? That’s silly Edwin. People that are passionate about truth, are passionate about Jesus. Anyone that is passionate about HIM, is doing STUFF!!

  161. lilacfountains Sep 27th 2012

    We ALL need discernment in these days more than ever. Start by praying Ephesians 3:14-19 for yourself. Just do that for awhile and really meditate on that til you get it in your inner man-not your head.

    Then I recommend a fictional but accurate spiritually book by Frank E Peretti: This Present Darkness (for beginners), and Piercing the Darkness which best goes into the lies behind these “angels” that are really demonic activity disguised..which is really what this false teaching promotes. No wonder the devil loves it so, he can pull the wool right over his most hated enemies!

    Also, some “meat” for believers that God led me too–ironically caught my eye because this very verse in Ephesians that I was trying to memorize was in the front of the book: The Believer’s Authority by Kenneth E Hagin. It’s a 50 page book. The only thing I disagreed with was his side comment about ignoring a dream if you didn’t understand it right away, which is not biblical (Joseph had to interpret Pharoah’s dream remember?), but the whole book centers on authority. This book doesn’t just give an opinion, it is an inspired revelation of the biblical truths, which drove me to crave more scripture daily because EVERY time God was showing me things at this point. Once get this in your spirit not your head about authority, you know how healing is done by God not us, but anyone can do it- you don’t need 20 yrs experience, just the wisdom and word from God leading you to take authority at the right time.

    I was reading the Bible, Peretti and Hagen books, and God was ordaining the timing on it all, and opened up the wonderful power of his Spirit and Word to me like never before. I have a 2 page “nuts and bolts” of the Hagen book if anyone is interested.

    We MUST remember 1) the devil and his demons know scripture too (remember Jesus tempted by the devil at the end of his 40 days of fasting?), 2) they can do miracles too (Pharoah’s magicians matched Moses trick for trick–only Moses’s staff/serpent ate the others…showing God’s authority supreme!) and 3) CHRISTIANS -led by the flesh not the Spirit- can be used by the devil. Read Matthew 16:23. Jesus told Peter “get behind me Satan” right after Jesus said on Peter he would found his church because he understood through the Spirit who Jesus was), so once you get that, YES any Bill Johnson can pull the wool over believers who do not know how to discern by the fruit they see and the Spirit and Word backing that up.

    That said, this is why once you understand and are led by the Spirit, I know how vital it is to literally pray the armor of God over yourself daily (Eph. 6:10-12), and constantly pray in the Spirit, because otherwise Satan (or his demons) can use you too, and we need to instead be the ones with wisdom enough like Andrew to point out false teachings.

  162. DeWayne Sep 27th 2012

    What is being discussed, mixing good with the error, certainly there is some good council in 1 John 5:16 “If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life.”

    Would it be any less love to warn a brother or sister regarding teaching error, both the consequence of teaching and accepting error. The blind leading the blind would as easily be understood the misled teaching to mislead.

  163. ValleyAnt Sep 27th 2012

    I’ll return to this article tomorrow, God willing. For now, I only read the article and the two first replies from Mick and Steve. I’ll reply to both and to Andrew and hope all three of you read this.

    Mick first. Shame on who, Mick? The shame will be all yours if you continue in taking the side of false ministry and errant teaching like that which comes from Bill Johnson and Bethel Church. If as a Christian you believe it’s okay to disdain and to spit at other Christians, then disdain those who already disdain you, and spit at those who will spit back. Your idiocy is DEPRESSING. I pray that God will give you eyes to see and repentance of heart to believe, because if you decide to side with fools who despise God and preach a different ‘good news’, then you’ll learn through very painful eternal experience that ‘He laughs best who laughs last’.

    Steve, it probably was a learning experience for you when you came under attack from subscribers to Johnson’s and Bethel church’s errors. Though you didn’t have to apologize, try to be wise regarding those who walk in the false gifts or the ‘supra-prophetic’. The enemy is the one who GUARDS and protects these false teachings with hosts of wicked spirits you probably would rather never encounter, and when you contend with his children (his teachings, false and lying signs and wonders, and his ministers and ardent followers), your contention is with him (our contention and those who contend against us aren’t really people but fallen angels and ruling evil spirits who want to destroy us); therefore, be sure that contention against those whom the enemy especially guards (so they can do and promote and proliferate his work across the earth) invites him to contend against you harshly in return. There’s no need for you to become a needless casualty of war.

    Andrew Strom, I don’t subscribe to the belief that all Christians are called to preach ‘peace’ or to think ‘only good thoughts’, because there is war against God and humanity, therefore, we can’t be nice all the time or a defeated for will defeat us over and again. I recently interacted with a church tied to Johnson and Bethel; the apostasy and abominations in these people can hardly be weighed on scales. It can be no one but false prophets who say, “‘Peace, peace’ when there is no peace” (Jer. 6:14, 8:11). These stories aren’t any good news, but they need to be exposed, and someone has to do it. I’m glad you are a voice exposing and sounding the trumpet on this demonized charismatic stupidity, because it needs to be so. Some false Christianity is false peity (pretending loyalty to the Word but negating the supernatural which the Word speaks of) and stinks in God’s nostrils, and some false Christianity is ‘a hybrid light-and-darkness mix’ of pretended faithfulness (accept ‘the supernatural’ but without godliness or repentance) and is an ABOMINATION to God; Johnson’s foolishness fits the second kind, and the Lord, ‘in that Day’, will sweep ‘this kind’ like the abomination it is into Hell just like a farmer sweeps useless chaff into fire.

    Hearing about false and nonsense Christianity gets tiring after a while, but thank God there are still people willing to give warning about it to those who may not know.

  164. Wanda and Lee AMEN to your posts! Good Stuff! Thanks So much for sharing!

  165. DeWayne Sep 27th 2012

    Thank you for being concerned for the immature these days, teaching error (thankfully of little consequence) was experienced early in my spiritual life.
    Before Christ became my Lord and savior, in my business life I discovered how difficult it is to untrain a person having first learned error, before correct training could even begin.
    This is true also concerning the wisdom and knowledge of man, so different than the wisdom and knowledge of God, and then there is teaching spiritual error, so greatly more serious an error.

  166. Julie Vidal Sep 27th 2012

    Dear Andrew,
    Thank you for all the work you do to expose these ungodly ministries. Praise God, He has given me good discernment when it comes to the Todd Bentleys and others like him. I never fell for all that he represented. I know church pastors and leaders who flocked from Australia to go to the U.S. to be a part of these demonic activities. So I thank you for alerting the body of Christ who may be in danger from this deception. Please keep doing what you are doing. There are very few who are willing to expose these types of ministries.
    God bless you and your family,

  167. lilacfountains,

    You praise Kenneth Hagin, the guy who taught that Jesus was ‘born again’ in hell after taking Satan’s nature and dying spiritually:

    “When was it that Jesus was begotten? When He was raised up! On that Resurrection morn!

    Why did He need to be begotten, or born? Because He became like we were, separated from God. Because He tasted spiritual death for every man. His spirit, His inner man, went to hell in our place.

    …Physical death would not remove our sins….

    …Jesus is the first person ever to be born again.

    …Spiritual death means something more than separation from God. Spiritual death also means having Satan’s nature. [Hagin, Kenneth E. The Name of Jesus. 1979, 3rd printing 1981; Rhema Bible Church aka Kenneth Hagin Ministries / Faith Library, Tulsa, OK; pp 28, 29, 31]

    My strong suggestion is to go back to just reading your Bible and finding good, Bible-based council to sit under.

  168. Lilacfountains- I have read many of Hagens books until I saw he was the main one involved in the Toronto Blessing along with John Arnott and Kenneth Copeland. If you watch videos of his drunken behavior on that revival you can see on YouTube he is hissing like a snake and is in a crazy outbreak of laughter. There are dog manifestations and bizarre behavior at the meetings. He even throws his hand out and says ‘Get drunk again’. It was on live tv and it made Christians and Jesus appear to be a joke. I would really research the people on books that you read. I have learned this from first hand experience. I had the obnoxious outbreaks of laughter and drunkenness and found out later on it wasn’t from the Holy Spirit. Be very careful who’s teaching you are listening to. Blessings to you.

  169. Tiffany Sep 27th 2012

    Andrew, thank you for this article. I have honestly never heard of this person “bill Johnson”, just as I never heard of “Todd Bentley” and have never gotten involved in the kind of things they teach PTL, but it is articles like this that I REALLY appreciate because it helps to bring awareness to such things that are happening within the church, so thank you so very much! someone above wrote that you need to give it a rest..etc. I say NO!!!! DON’T STOP, if you do not share what God has asked of you, you are then not doing His will and so many will continue to be deceived so please do NOT ever stop sharing what the Lord has given you. The things you’ve shared has been a great blessing and help to me and those whom I share your articles with! God bless you and your family

    Thank you again!

  170. And thanks Craig that was another major error I learned about Hagen and Copeland!

  171. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    lee – thank you for sharing that from derek prince – that book really HELPED me in a hard time…..

    wanda – thank you for answering karen r is such a godly and right way – what you shared was TRUTH.

    linda d – YES, HE does and yes, HE will. amen.

    edwin s. – how foolish you speak…..no one is ‘denying’ the gifts – not the ‘Biblical’ ones – the only ‘manifestations’ we are AGAINST are those that are CLEARLY NOT OF GOD but are represented as such – please READ what is posted instead of just ‘jumping in’ with assumptions that are NOT the truth, please….

    DL – amen!!

    valleyant – thank you for your wise counsel to those you addressed and for your encouragement to andrew – all truth!!

    we gathered together with a handful of believers tonight – some older saints who had many years in the earlier moving of the Holy Spirit – they experienced real and powerful physical healings at times – NOT attributed to any man or any ‘craziness’ – just the power of the HOLY SPIRIT touching them when they cried out to the LORD for healing…..OUR GOD HEALS and OUR GOD SAVES and OUR GOD DELIVERS……

    we also spoke of the ‘tendency’ to back off from all things ‘supernatural’ when you have been ‘burnt badly’ by the FALSE and how IMPORTANT IT IS NOT TO.

    we MUST hold to the BIBLICAL TRUTH as pertains to the work and operation and gifting of the HOLY SPIRIT – the ‘gifts of the Spirit’ are REAL and NOT to be rejected because of the false – but, we MUST be very very careful to EXAMINE ALL THINGS AND HOLD FAST THAT WHICH IS GOOD…….just because something is SAID to be of ‘God’ and has accompanying ‘weird and unexplainable’ manifestations and gives you whoo whoo feelings – DOES NOT MAKE IT OF GOD – NOT the LORD JESUS CHRIST, anyhow……..

    let’s stop being ‘foolish children’ led astray by everything ‘new’ that comes down the pike – there are HORRIFIC consequences if we do NOT grow up and become wise in the ways of the LORD – ‘STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED, A WORKMAN NEEDING NOT TO BE ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORK OF TRUTH’ – STUDY – NOT RUN HITHER AND YON TO EVERY SUPPOSEDLY SPIRITUAL GATHERING SO YOU CAN GET YOUR LATEST ‘HIGH’!!! as someone said earlier on in the posts – you’re NEVER satisfied – always seeking the next ‘hit’….


  172. Talk about strange…….

    “Bethel Church and Redding Police Join Forces to Destroy Homeless Camps”


  173. lilacfountains, I found this on YouTube for you. Check it out:


    This is Hagen in action. Also in the meeting is Kenneth and Gloria Copeland.

  174. Here are some quick quotes of Bill Johnson which go a long way towards proving my assertions above (there are more quotes which provide additional weight in the articles). In each case, the ‘anointing’ is defined by Johnson as the point in which Holy Spirit descends as a dove and rests upon Jesus (John 1:32-34) which occurs just after John’s Baptism:

    The outpouring of the Spirit also needed to happen to Jesus for Him to be fully qualified. This was His quest. Receiving this anointing qualified Him to be called the Christ, which means “anointed one.” Without the experience [aka “Christ anointing”] there could be no title. [Bill Johnson Face to Face with God: The Ultimate Quest to Experience His Presence. 2007, Charisma House, Lake Mary, FL; p 109]

    …The anointing is what linked Jesus, the man, to the divine enabling Him to destroy the works of the devil. [Bill Johnson When Heaven Invades Earth: A Practical Guide to a Life of Miracles. 2003, Treasure House/Destiny Image, Shippensburg, PA; p 79]

    …The outpouring of the Spirit comes to anoint the church with the same Christ anointing that rested upon Jesus in His ministry so that we might be imitators of Him… [Face to Face, p 77. Emphasis added.]

    And, for good measure, here’s a quote from the 2nd century Gnostic/Apocryphal Gospel of Philip which teaches this same doctrine. The word chrisma is the Greek transliterated “anointing”:

    The chrism is superior to baptism. For from the chrism we were called ‘Christians’, not from baptism. Christ also was (so) called because of the anointing. [Wilhelm Schneemelcher; transl. R. McL. Wilson New Testament Apocrypha: Volume One: Gospels and Related Writings. © J.C.B. Mohr (Paul Siebeck), Tubingen, 1990; English Translation © James Clarke & Co. Ltd, 1991 (Rev. ed.), Westminster John Knox, Louisville, KY; p 200. Emphasis added.]

    The New Age / New Spirituality gets much of their teachings from 2nd century Gnosticism. It appears that Johnson does get at least some of his teachings from the same polluted well.

    You should be able to find these quotes in googlebooks by doing a search with some of the words from the above Johnson quotes.

  175. Thank you DebyLynne for the recap of this thread. It’s true. I think the majority want the true move of the Spirit. We want God to use us to minister HIS gifts. We want revival, but we aren’t willing to swallow whatever is the latest fad. Some of us have been around the block too many times, already.

    In the end we’ll all give account for everything we have done and allowed in our lives and yes, taught others by example. For a little bit of ‘fun’ and excitement we are willing to risk answering to God?

    Where is the fear of God? Where is repentance being preached in any of this?

  176. Thank you Craig for your work and research for us!

  177. Chris, I don’t know what to make of this link. Strange, indeed??

  178. David Marsh Sep 27th 2012

    Hello JeffM,

    Matthew 24:27-28
    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    27 For when the Son of Man does come, it will be like lightning that flashes out of the east and fills the sky to the western horizon. 28 Wherever there’s a dead body, that’s where you find the vultures.

    It is my understanding that 24:27-28 refers to Christs physical return at the very end of the age when every eye will see Him.
    Many argue that Mat.24:14 has for some time been underway with missionaries going into all the world.
    However, the passage seems to indicate a period almost at the end, and the missionaries although spreading the gospel, have not yet carried ‘this gospel of the kingdom’ into the world – which Jesus personally demonstrated, and that the apostles demonstrated to the world.

    The world cannot see the invisible Holy Spirit – in the times of a Holy Spirit outpouring like the last days revival.

    God bless

    David Marsh

  179. Harvey Rosieur Sep 27th 2012

    John the Baptist asked, when he was in prison, about the deeds of Christ (Mat.11:2,3)and Jesus responded “Go and tell John what you hear and see; the blind receive their sightand the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the poor have good news preached to them. And blessed is he that takes no offense at me”
    Some of the Manifest Presence movement people testify to doing these things and many say that these things are happening. I have not personally seen them but I struggle with calling them all liars. Some are friends and would not deliberately deceive anyone.If Jesus expected John The Baptist to believe on the basis of what He had done, can we not do the same? By what (whose) authority or power are these deeds being performed?
    The claims which I have heard sound like the Acts of the Apostles. Is healing been carried out by demon power in the name of Jesus?
    I would like to hear some educated discussion on this because there is serious division in the Church. Do you think that such people are still saved who have this ‘false’ anointing? If so, what’s the harm? If people are really healed (and a friend of mine has been) by one under this in fluence , what’s the catch? The Devil does no favours.

  180. Heather Anne Sep 27th 2012


    You have been called to sound the alarm and be a watchman on the wall … PLEASE DO NOT STOP … some people say we should just love and GOD is love … HE is and we are to be loving … BUT truly loving someone in GOD’s way is to tell them the TRUTH and look after the sheep / lambs … sheep can be stupid and we need discerning people to alert us to danger!

    Where is the FEAR of the LORD? Where are the REPENTANT hearts? What happened to seeking FIRST the Kingdom of GOD and His Righteousness?

    GOD BLESS YOU! I’m so glad HE has given you the gifts he has and has empowered you with His Holy Spirit to speak BOLDLY and with LOVE!!!

    I pray for you and your family Andrew … even when we are doing what the LORD has called us to and maybe especially when we are obeying the LORD we go through fiery trials … the devil does not want people to know and be alerted to what you’re pointing out!

  181. Andrew an All
    Amazing !
    I have been spirit filled since June 6th 1965 and
    ’till now had never heard of Bill Johnson, or his “bethel church” Though i am aware of some of the theatrical nonsense that goes on and deceives many.
    Is B.R. he reading comic books and promoting doctrine from them?
    It should be plain and obvious to all. Just who he represents.
    I might add, in that 47 years our church group has grown to thousands of folk in some 30 countries with some 300 plus assemblies ( http://revivalcentres.org/beliefs/gifts/ ) where every Sunday after communion time the supernatural gifts operate, including tongues interpretation, and prophecy, as Paul directed to the Corinthians. For me alone, just counting tongues interpretation and prophecy, that means 6 * 52 weeks * 47 years = total of 18720 times. Multiply this by the thousands in many nations where these supernatural gifts are manifested by God in our midst, and you have an impressive number.
    Now in those 47 years i have never experienced any occasion, nor have i heard any report from amongst us, that any of these miracle Gifts did not COMPLETELY ALIGN with Holy Scripture! Please note I make this boast for the Lord, and not of ourselves!

    May i remind those of you who share the Spirit filled life, that Moses, (when challenged by the magicians of Pharaoh who produced “similitudes “) pressed right on with the miraculous! He was not put off, or phased at all. Rather as Paul reminds Timothy and us. II Tim. 3:8. does Paul here not refer also to theatricals in the Bill Robinson type so called churches.?
    Moses continued ‘till that night when the firstborn of Egypt died and the Israelites departed,

    Paul said “But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.” We should be as Moses was, and not be ignorant, as Paul admonished the Corinthians, concerning the Spiritual Gifts in the Church
    Pr Michael

  182. Sheeja John Sep 27th 2012

    The Strong Delusion and the Great Deception

    Who is sending it/permitting it?
    God. (For God will send them strong delusion) – 2nd Thessalonians 2:11
    Why is He sending it?
    To peel the mask off of the wicked (the wolves in sheep’s clothing) and to expose the fake/the false. Scripture declares: ‘That they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.’ – 2nd Thessalonians 2:11-12
    Yahweh is separating the goat from His sheep. Have peace therefore, for not one sheep of God’s flock will be lost in this process of refining and segregation. Yeshua said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.” – John 11:27-29

  183. Marc Wildman Sep 27th 2012


    I knew most of these manifestations were not of God over 15 years ago, the laughing, jerking, rolling around on the floor. In fact, it doesn’t take a prophetic calling to know this simply is not the character of God. Thankfully, He doesn’t carry on the way we do. He is a Holy God, and we needn’t see him as unapproachable but all in all, we need to come to Him respectfully.

    There are many of us who know and feel that the churches, especially in America are all leavened, some more than others. However, I think the consensus is to come out of her at this place in time. The buildings, the entertainment, the show, the unscriptural tithes, and billions of dollars diverted away from ‘pure and undefiled religion’. Which is to the widow in distress, the orphans and the poor?

    Acts was primarily set up in an organic fashion for a very important, powerful reason. We were supposed to meet in small groups, and everyone was to be raised up as a leader. There were no ‘one-man’ bands, no one abusing any position and since when is the Pastor responsible for the other five-fold ministries? Where in Acts did the apostles appoint one man to do it all? Today the Church is a corporation and doesn’t come close to resembling God’s prototype set forth in Acts.

    Of course, you’re going to have division, strife, vying for position, power struggles and people adding and taking away from the scriptures. The mega churches in America control the media, cable television and most of them are following prosperity, word of faith and entertaining, not preaching the Word of God.

    It’s high time we see this and simply bow out folks? We don’t need to take swipes at the enemy because it’s probably not a good idea? Why look for problems in the darkness when the harvest is ripe and the laborers few. I am choosing to walk in the light as He is in the light?

    Why look backwards or why even take the time to judge? It looks like God has been opening a few ‘bowls’ on His own? I spend most of my time ministering with my wife on the streets. I don’t have time to watch Jesse Duplantis build his latest 35,000 sq. ft, house. That’s between him and God? Don’t we all have work to do??

    And I might add, for the grace of god go I!!

    Marc Wildman

  184. Hi

    Boy this is a hard one I am diffenenty not a fan of Todd Bently and his unrepented, sin reddled life, But I have been undecided about Bill Johnson, I went (and it was so packed out they had to have a second conference) to the manifest conference he ran here in New zealand and saw none of the things that you say he dose wakky stuff any way as stated I am undecided about his ministy , I was under the impression that he no longer has anything to do with Todd, could be wrong thou. At the end of the day we cant put God in a box occording to our ways of thinking at the end of the day scripure has the final say in say that it must be interprated properly . ( people dont read or study thee bibles any more in some ways what do we expect chaos.

    God Bless Kevin. we do throw a lot of stones us christains thou.

  185. George Sep 27th 2012

    very very interesting article, to micheal who ref to the revival centers , i was in that CULT for over 37 years. and there salvation doctrine is just as erroneous as the stuff that we have seen been written about here.

    after leaving this place i was one of the ppl that got caught up in all the “toronto ” type things and in many ways embraced it as it lead me to a God that i know now loved me beyond all i have ever known.

    however in the last cpl years in particular i have noticed in places like bethel and others all this “other gospel” new age stuff that really scares me and makes my spirit grieve all this stuff re angels etc etc seems more and more to lying signs and wonders.. had a question asked to me once why would satan show up in a place like bethel, i was like to do exactly what he is doing , deceiving the very elect

    Andrew thanks for a great article and sharing blessing to all

  186. Craig CrossWise
    B.R aside I am not interested in him, his books, or doctrine.
    That said concerning “anointing, anointed, and Christ”
    The web site you refer to is to me quibbles over semantics.
    I pray this does not come across as me quibbling over semantics also.

    As does: – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki Although it does point out correctly that christos with its various spellings is in fact anointed, anointing!

    “In the Septuagint version of the Hebrew Bible, the word Christ was used to translate into Greek the Hebrew mashiach (messiah), meaning “anointed.”[9][10] Christos in classical Greek usage could mean covered in oil, or anointed, and is thus a literal translation of messiah, in Hebrew. (Oil being symbolic of the Holy Spirit – the Oil of Joy)

    The spelling Christ (Greek Genitive: τοῦ Χριστοῦ, toú Christoú,; Nominative: ὁ Χριστὸς, ho Christós) in English was standardized in the 18th century, when, in the spirit of the Enlightenment, the spelling of certain words was changed to fit their Greek or Latin origins. Prior to this, in Old and Middle English, the word was usually spelled Crist the I being pronounced either as /iː/, preserved in the names of churches such as St Katherine Cree, or as a short /ɪ/, preserved in the modern pronunciation of Christmas. The spelling “Christ” is attested from the 14th century.[11]

    In modern and ancient usage, even within secular terminology, Christ usually refers to Jesus, building on the centuries old tradition of such use.[12] Since the Apostolic Age, the use of the definite article before the word Christ and its DEVELOPEMENT (my caps) into a proper name signifies its identification with Jesus as the promised Jewish messiah.[13]”
    Ah ha! So it was NOT a name but a title describing what God did to Jesus when John baptized Him Acts 10:38
    christos is not really a name but an appellative!
    The question “Are you a christian?” may be paraphrased as Paul in the wisdom of God asked certain “Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?”
    If a correct understanding of this fact were preached from our pulpits today I believe there would undoubtedly be many more of us, like Andrew who enjoyed a mighty life changing baptism in the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead.) for as scripture tells us emphatically, there is One Spirit!

    The enormity of walking in this experience – new birth – is to fashion us like (isos) Him. Body, Mind, Spirit – Greek sozo:- Salvation
    Men and brethren, what shall we do? (To be saved (sozo) by inference) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 2 37,38
    “But Jesus turning and seeing her said ‘Daughter take courage your faith has made you well (sozo) and at once the woman was made well (sozo).” Matthew 9:22
    “And those who had seen it reported to them how the man who was demon-possessed had been made well (sozo).” Luke 8:36
    Unlike Lazarus, the widows son, and Jairus daughter, Jesus rose with a new “metamorphosed” supernatural body, So also shall we, if we hold fast, at the last trumpet, in the twinkling of an eye, – this corruption (natural body) shall put on incorruption (immortality) and Gods plan of salvation for us is completed in every way!
    Pr Michael

  187. All of what you wrote Andrew is fine. However, what I am wondering is how and where do we draw the line when it comes to spiritual encounters. For example, paul even wrote and said he knew of a person who went up and saw heaven, whether in the spirit or not, he didn’t know. So, it isn’t a new occurrence. But when does it become new age and wrong? I guess when you have people flocking to the front just to get visions of heaven, then it becomes wrong. The way I look at it, if you are blessed enough to be given such a vision/experience, then great, but don’t pursue those types of things….and don’t run about bragging about it either, surely doesn’t the Holy Spirit bring humility to our sinful hearts? A person close to me, has both seen and can see angels and has seen/been brought to heaven…both of which were VERY humbling experiences, terrifying probably would be the better word. She does not throw her pearls before swine and has enough maturity to know that it was a personal thing, and therefore, she only tells those who she is very close to. I think the problem is, in our offence to what these new age churches are doing, we can’t just throw the baby out with the bath water, which is what a lot will be doing at this stage.

  188. magsdee Sep 27th 2012

    great article……….i will say this, bob jones is very questionable, seeing short little familiar spirits (something came into his house looking like an elf? excuse me)and entertaining them and the rubbish about the glory train……how can anyone fall for it? but they do :(
    sincere people loving god but mixing new age crap….mixed fire is never a good thing, read your bible to know this………….i feel im missing out on nothing ……

  189. J. Archer Sep 27th 2012

    Andrew, please express your concerns to Bethel Church, I`d be interested in the reply.
    Our Church too is drinking up Bethel preaching. I`m sure people are getting saved and being encouraged by them, but do wonder why there`s no reference to repentence and why jerking, spirit-drunkeness, waking angels and prophetic tuning forks seem to be so delectible to so many.
    My personal thoughts are, let them go, they are not against Jesus, I`d just prefer they didn`t keep feminising the church.

  190. Ibelieve Sep 27th 2012

    They offered up strange fire in the OT but the Lord was not pleased.

    10 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.

    The Lord is not behind this strange mixture of Christianity that we are seeing in the earth today as well.

    Lord Bless

    P.S. Would appreciate it if you could remember to pray for a sister in the Lord. She has had five back to back surgeries in the hospital and they are going to do more. They have her strapped to the bed so she will not remove tubes from her mouth. She Is conscious and in a terrible state. They said she had cancer but now they are saying she does not the family thinks they have botched the surgery. My wife went in and read scriptures to her to encourage her. Her name is Sue.

    Thank you for your prayers.

  191. To be or not to be is the question regarding these non biblical practices that have taken hold and being manifested in what people call the CHRISTIAN CHURCH.
    When known occult practices have replaced biblical practices i dread what will come next in diguise of the Holy Spirit. What more will come from so called prophecies which are painted to be of God but are whitewashing peoples’ minds and leading them astray.
    From reading the Word of God about the Great Revival being portrayed there is none that I have read but a falling away in the End Times. To say otherwise is misleading and it is the man made words of the false teachers and prophets operating in the church.
    The question is what will happen to those who have fallen to those words of the false teachers in our midst – Only God knows!
    I believe the Great Deception is here to stay until the Bridegroom comes for His Bride, the Body of Christ.
    In the meantime, the christian church will become what it has become today – entertaining another spirit, remain in disarray and turmoil, where repentance is put on a back burner because people seek signs and wonders whatever expense and manifestations.
    There will be no unity in the christian church because what it has become. For no one in leadership and their followers can agree.
    The parables of the sower and the ten virgins have become apparent.
    May the Lord Jesus Christ come soon!!!!!!!!

  192. Foolhardy Fred Sep 27th 2012

    The scriptures repeatedly warn against this sort of rubbish and provide safeguards for the faithful to enable the obedient to remain free..

    1 Timothy 4
    King James Version (KJV)
    4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some (many perhaps) shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    Matthew 7

    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

  193. Look Andrew, I don’t like talking about it any more than you do but it needs to be done. Too many people are being deceived with this nonsense. Keep publishing your articles my brother!

  194. just another christain coven. delusion enough to be more obvious than most, but just another church into the occult.

    I’m looking foward to life in The Holy City, the end time church. The walls of salvation and the gates of praise will keep them where they are now and we will have fellowship with God.

  195. Foolhardy Fred Sep 27th 2012

    Well said Martin and Richard67. I agree. I believe Bill Johnson was also one of Peter Wagners’ generals in his blasphemous New Apostolic Reformation perversion. How completely devoid of biblical principles do you have to be to have anything to do with that sort of nonsense.

    I have seen footage of Johnson teaching his students to pray over graves of people for the purpose of receiving their anointing. This practice looks disgustingly like necromancy another occultic practice strictly forbidden in the Word of God.

    This sort of exposure is absolutely crucial. It is ridiculous for those who know the Truth of the Word of God to idly stand by watching the deluded going to hell unnecessarily and in many cases apparently unwittingly without even trying to provide the Word of God as an alternative for them to respond to.

    Tragically many people are going to hell falsely convinced that the occultic new age hybrid religion and religious practices they are committed to will somehow cut it with God on the Judgement Day.

    This delusion demonstrates why we have that demonic teaching about following “anointed ones without question” because the teaching of these charlatans will not stand scrutiny of even the most basic kind.

    The entire Bible has been provided by God to show us what He requires and what we should be diligent to avoid. We need to be diligent in our application of His Word to our lives to the exclusion of all this other perverse nonsense.

  196. Foolhardy Fred Sep 27th 2012

    It is impossible to be disobedient to the Word of God and be on the side of Jesus. There is is one way to be saved and that is the way that God has provided for us through Jesus Christ His son in accordance with the clear teachings of the Bible.

    I am very sorry J Archer but false teaching and occultic New Age religious practices such as those practiced by Bill Johnson and his cohorts is very definitely against Jesus and leading people to hell.

    Adam and Eve lost the garden of Eden because of their determination to question God.

    Jesus accepted crucifixion rather than comply with the false teachings and practices of the “anointed” religious leaders of His day. He also rejected the offer of Satan that he would give him the kingdsoms of the world if he would but bow down and worship him (false religion).

    Do not be mistaken. Only committed bible believing christians will be saved on the judgement day. According to the Bible everyone else is going to hell, .

    Obedience to HIS Word is what God requires – Disobedience or rebellion is as witchcraft says the Lord.

    Witchcraft is, of course, another sin forbidden by God with the consequence of eternal damnation.

  197. Foolhardy Fred Sep 27th 2012

    Thank you for sharing Michael.

    What you describe seems to be so rare in these days of wholesale apostasy that it would be a delight to have ready access to a genuine Spirit filled Bible believing church in these last days.

    Most genuine spirit filled bible believing christians are living in virtual exile due to their commitment to His Word.

  198. Foolhardy Fred -Thats encouraged me – as i often feel that Im in a sort of spiritual exile fellowshipping by phone and em in the town I live where more churches are becoming increasingly invaded by the Toronto spirit.

    ANDREW – KEEP THE WARNINGS COMING, all have been spot on and sound so far, YOU MUST BE A WATCHMAN hard though that is in this age of falsehoods in the west but u will be greatly rewarded in heaven for blowing the trumpet like this. A time will come when it is too late.

    There is about to be A FLLOD OF FALLEN ANGELIC appearances of the sort this article has just warned about. But it will come mainly through the grass roots this time as many copy these larger ministries and follow their advice and call upon angels in their own homes, then many of those that know them will copy and join in until a great, end times inundation of fallen ages swamp the western church. This will be followed by an upsurge in paganism in secular society, with the two gradually merging in the interfaith movement which people like Joyner and Johnson will lead as they become apostate (unless they repent), A great falling away from the faith was predicted by St Paul in the end times and I think this will be the start of it.

    I had this word years ago for the USA but now realise it applies as much to the rest of us in the western world too unfortuantely:

    God bless for that warning artical – it really will prove prophetic.


  199. P.S I felt led to write this article in this particular way a year or so ago entitled “The Coming One World Religion” which is on the same issue;


    No one ever said being a Christian and inheriting eternal life was going to be easy (actually they did, in most churches in the west from the 1980s omwards which is perhaps partly why many are now so unprepared and open to deception)?

  200. Thats was a long word so this is the part I wanted to refer to;

    “Firstly there were fallen angels appearing as angels of light: The first area of deception was depicted as a picture of a church in the U.S.A, (this could perhaps apply to other nations too). This was symbolic of what is going to start happening in many churches, particularly those across the USA. In this picture someone in the congregation declared that God was going to send an angel to them and that it would bring with it a new anointing that would start a revival in that church. Only a couple of Christians were cautious and took time to weigh this word up, the rest just assumed it must be of God without testing it. An angel did then come to that meeting; however it was a fallen angel, sent to deceive. It did bring with it a new anointing, only it was a counterfeit anointing and not of the Holy Spirit. Spiritual manifestations broke out in that meeting, sometimes similar to those one might expect from the Holy Spirit, sometimes different and more obviously demonic. These were all counterfeit and from the kingdom of darkness however, from the occult realm. All but a few of the Christians opened their hearts to this and almost the entire congregation then started following this other spirit. The Lord then gave me a prediction that this was going to happen in many churches scattered across the U.S.A. in the future. There are going to be many false angelic visitations that will bring deceptions and a counterfeit anointing. “

  201. Bronzed Beetle Sep 27th 2012

    I haven’t had time to read all the other replies but have noted some very good ones. Andrew, thanks for the warning. I trust that you have attempted to dialogue with the Bethel leadership before going public.

    I was in another church in 1993 when the Toronto craziness hit Australia. Some friends thankfully sounded the alarm and I began to check things out. I had discussions / debates with the pastor who visited Toronto, saying “God told me to go.” Eventually my wife and I had to make the decision to leave that church, in 1999.

    We “escaped” to another local church which seemed a safe haven for a while. Then a new senior pastor was called and he was pro-Toronto. He brought the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry to our church in 2007. Some of the teaching was OK but there were many errors and promotion of people like Rodney Howard Browne. It seems to me that Bethel is the new Toronto.

    Thing is, we love our brethren at this church. My wife would not want to leave. So we pray for the leadership team and soldier on.

  202. Pr. Michael,

    The website I refer to is my own. I researched and wrote all the material (excepting the few testimonies). I’m not sure why you’d use wiki as a source when there are so many other better resources such as Strong’s, Vine’s, or even better, the BDAG (or the BAGD). I’m well aware of the etymology of Christ as I’ve written about it:


    See also:


    You wrote, “Ah ha! So it was NOT a name but a title describing what God did to Jesus when John baptized Him Acts 10:38.

    Of course, “Christ” is not Jesus’ last name. And, there’s no question Jesus was anointed at His Baptism by John. However, that is NOT the point in which Jesus was deemed or became the Christ (although New Agers claim so) as He was the Christ at the moment of the virginal conception [cf. Luke 1:32/2:11] and arguably before that.

    Quoting Louis Berkhof from his Systematic Theology as used in part II of the second link above:

    “There are especially five names [Jesus, Christ, Son of Man, Son of God, Lord] that…are partly descriptive of His natures, partly of His official position, and partly of the work for which He came into the world.”

    “…Christ is the official…name of the Messiah…Christ was set up or appointed to His offices from eternity, but historically His anointing took place when He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, Luke 1:35, and when He received the Holy Spirit, especially at the time of His baptism…It served to qualify Him for His great task…”

    But, here’s the deal: Johnson makes the explicit claim that Jesus could not have even received the title of “Christ” without ‘the experience’ of Baptism. This is patently false and very misleading. Moreover, if you read the “Christ Anointing and the Antichrist Spirit” you’ll see that Johnson first defines both Christ and antichrist correctly, then proceeds to redefine these terms just like Copeland has done (and I do believe Hagin and Kenyon although I don’t have documemtation on that just yet).

    Christians become Christians at the point in which the Holy Spirit indwells them which is upon acceptance of Christ as Savior (after the Father draws them, cf. John 6:44, 55). This does not have to occur at water baptism specifically nor does this have to occur at a subsequent ‘Baptism in the Holy Spirit’. And, no, just for the record, I’m not a cessationist (read my Statement of Faith).

    Regarding your question attributed to Paul, “Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed” – do you mean Luke in Acts 19:3? Assuming so, the point of this passage is to question whether or not they accepted Christ after accepting John’s Baptism.

  203. I’m still waiting for a response from the Bill Johnson/Todd Bentley apologists to this claim made in Lakeland.


    Where is the PROOF? Surely Bill would have checked this out when he endorsed Todd again, right? It’s not everyday that you get someone claiming 21 resurrections from the dead.

    Still waiting. And I expect to be waiting for a long, long time.

  204. Pr. Michael,

    From the wiki site: “Since the Apostolic Age, the use of the definite article before the word Christ and its DEVELOPEMENT (my caps) into a proper name signifies its identification with Jesus as the promised Jewish messiah.”

    The definite article (Greek transliterated ho) is used sometimes (the Christ) and at others the NT writers either use “Jesus Christ” as in a name or “Christ Jesus” as in a title. In the NT each and every usage of Christos refers specifically to Jesus Christ the Person and no other. The noun form chrio, to anoint, and the noun from chrisma, anointing, are used always in a sacred and symbolic sense. From the “‘Christ’ in the New Age” article:

    “In the New Testament, chrio is used five times, two of which refer to Jesus’ Baptism [Luke 4:18, Acts 10:38], another most likely to His Baptism [Acts 4:27][7], and once at or after His Resurrection or Ascension [Heb 1:9; cf. Ps 45:6-7, Isa 61:3, Php 2:9][8]. In the remaining instance, chrio is used to refer to Holy Spirit-endued Christians [II Cor 1:21]. The noun form of chrio is chrisma, “anointing,”[9] which is used only three times, and each time in John’s first epistle to denote the Holy Spirit anointing of believers [once in I John 2:20, twice in 2:27].”

  205. KathyG. Sep 27th 2012

    Debylynne, I have enjoyed reading your comments these last several months!! Praise God for your gift.:)
    Andrew Strom – I can only imagine your crowns in Heaven!!!
    God showed me a dream nearly 7 years ago and said, “Revival.”
    Then He said, “Jeremiah 33:3 – Call unto me and I will answer you and show you the great and mighty things that you DO NOT KNOW”
    Then Andrew’s website and books were introduced.
    Andrew, God’s teaching through you has “opened my eyes.” I love how God is an “orderly God.”
    God led a group of us to “hear” His teaching through you so that when Revival does come to our county, we have taken the opportunity to “pray” and “know” because we have been WARNED!! Psalms 46:10 Be still and know that I am God.
    Thank you for the warning, and I pray God blesses your ministry 100 fold. :)

  206. Correction above: should be the verb form chrio

  207. Pr. Michael,

    You wrote, “Unlike Lazarus, the widows son, and Jairus daughter, Jesus rose with a new “metamorphosed” supernatural body, So also shall we, if we hold fast, at the last trumpet, in the twinkling of an eye, – this corruption (natural body) shall put on incorruption (immortality) and Gods plan of salvation for us is completed in every way!

    Amen to that!

    That is, unless you believe in the Manifest Sons of God doctrine in which we are to get our glorified bodies before Jesus Christ’s return (or, more specifically, Christ cannot return until these ‘elites’ are glorified such that Christ can return IN these ‘elites’). Adherents include Bill Johnson (see “Resurrection Life” section here, Bob Jones, Todd Bentley, Bill Hamon, etc. etc….

  208. David Marsh, Jesus bless you, you are right verse 27 is the sign of Christ’s return to the earth but what do you think of verse 28.It seems to be part of the warnings in mathew 24 to beware of the false that would come and claim to be of Christ.

    It is reported that during the Azusa street revival , neighbors repeatedly called the fire department because it looked like the church roof was on fire.

    Matthew 24:42

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    42 So stay alert, because you don’t know on what day your Lord will come.

  209. Thank you for being a watchman. The more “extra-biblical” our teachers and pastors get, the more we need those who can bring them back to the Word.

  210. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    DL wrote:
    “in the end we’ll all give account for everything we have done and allowed in our lives and yes, taught others by example. For a little bit of ‘fun’ and excitement we are willing to risk answering to God?

    Where is the fear of God? Where is repentance being preached in any of this?”
    amen. where, indeed.

    i went in to read the word from david wilkerson today and it was about idolatry….and this scripture was how it began….

    “And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the
    prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;”

    now THAT is a sobering statement…..that those that ‘run after’ the false – that which is TRULY ‘idolatry’ will bear the same punishment as the false prophet…….dear LORD, there is NO choice but to speak up and WARN if we care ANYTHING about those that are being deceived.

    it IS idolatry, you know…..this ‘seeking after something OTHER than the LORD JESUS CHRIST….no matter how you slice it, if it is NOT ‘purely’ HIM and OF HIS SPIRIT and UPHELD by the truth of HIS WORD – it IS idolatry.

  211. Pr. Michael,

    In re-reading what I wrote above, I wish to be sure my words are not misunderstood. When I wrote, “That is, unless you believe in the Manifest Sons of God doctrine…” I was not referring to you at all. I prolly should have written, “That is, unless one believes in the Manifest Sons of God doctrine…”

    Sorry for any confusion.

  212. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    sarah wrote:

    “All of what you wrote Andrew is fine. However, what I am wondering is how and where do we draw the line when it comes to spiritual encounters. For example, paul even wrote and said he knew of a person who went up and saw heaven, whether in the spirit or not, he didn’t know. So, it isn’t a new occurrence. But when does it become new age and wrong? I guess when you have people flocking to the front just to get visions of heaven, then it becomes wrong. The way I look at it, if you are blessed enough to be given such a vision/experience, then great, but don’t pursue those types of things….and don’t run about bragging about it either, surely doesn’t the Holy Spirit bring humility to our sinful hearts?”

    very GOOD point, sarah. exactly. paul didn’t ‘run after’ this revelation experience (assuming it WAS paul, as he was so ‘humble’ in recounting it, it was very apparent that he did NOT want to draw focus to himself!) nor was he ‘allowed’ to even tell what he saw…..think about that!!!
    he didn’t say ‘line up’ and i’ll tell you what to do so you TOO can have a ‘heaven experience’ like me!!

    i believe you have made a VERY valid point here – we are NOT to seek after EXPERIENCES in the supernatural realm – the LORD does give them at times – paul, peter, john the beloved – just some that are recounted for us, but NOT because they were SOUGHT – it was GOD’S WILL – NOT THEIRS being acted upon.

    and there was a PURPOSE in each ‘experience’ – it wasn’t just to have this ‘whoo whoo’ time to add to your collection……what we seem to FORGET is that along with these ‘great revelations’ that those recounted in the Word of God had, came GREAT PERSECUTION – GREAT DIFFICULTIES – SUFFERING…..no one WANTS that part – just the EXCITING part – which, in MOST cases here that we are discussing if NOT OF GOD AT ALL.

    i learned this the HARD way by listening to these ‘prophets/teachers’ whatever – they actually ‘taught us’ how to go and put ourselves in this ‘state’ of ‘supernatural sensitivity’ – i cannot tell you how hard it was to ‘get free’ of all that – never never never open yourself up this way……after i realized how much i had let these ‘forces’ affect me, for a long season i was actually afraid to even ‘go into my prayer closet’ because it had become all about these ‘experiences’ that i would have there….for a couple of years i could only pray WITH my husband – i was actually AFRAID to pray ‘alone’……..God has healed and restored me, but it was unbelievably hard.

    when you open yourself up to the ‘false’ – it is NOT easy to ‘get back on track’. i’m sure it has to do with how far into it you go but also FEAR played a big part with me……i distrusted EVERYTHING ‘supernatural’ for a season – even the TRUE operation of the HOLY SPIRIT….i was very confused.

    so, if you wonder why i am so adamant about this, it is because this whole ‘deception’ has cost me and our family DEARLY.

    again, thanks for your good observation here, sarah.

  213. ValleyAnt Sep 27th 2012

    Hi, Harvey Rosieur. I hope this will be helpful.

    There are many questions about God and the things of God in the churches and the world today. Thankfully, the Lord’s fivefold Ministry is returning, and they will explain and shed light and Grace on every one of these issues by the their doctrine, their hearts, and their ways/lifestyles. It would take at least a booklet to answer just one of your questions. I’ll only say these:

    (Side note: I’ve also tried to read Johnson’s book ‘When Heaven Invades Earth’. On the back cover, Johnson’s massive error immediately began to show as he wrote: “Anyone can walk in the miraculous– even you!” A brief glance at 1Cor. 12:28-29 tells us that Johnson is teaching patent lies and that not all are called to or will walk in the miraculous but only those whom the Lord calls to that area.)

    Due to God’s will, I attended for over a month (and am still in contact with for now) a church that follows Johnson’s teachings. The pastor of this church I recently attended is a woman who teaches members ungodly doctrines (e.g. partaking in alcohol and marijuana as, they say, “God is always in a good mood”) and calls herself a prophet (does this sound familiar) and calls her submissive husband an apostle. It’s not really the specific teachings of such churches but their attitude, their fruits. There’s a permissiveness in Johnson’s stuff that promotes a lot of sin and rebellion. E.g. a guy I’m still in contact with who attends this church lives their permissive lifestyle (stuff they don’t say in church but which they encourage as most communication is non-verbal). This guy saw no problem in telling me that he tried to start a relationship with a fourteen year old girl in a church (the church teaches error but did dismiss him for it); his justification is that he will only marry a virgin. He’s 42 years old. Most churches wouldn’t outwardly approve this belief, but churches that teach the level of permissiveness that Johnson’s church teaches approve all forms of rebellion and sin; they just don’t say it. At this time, I’m seeing the bad fruits of Johnson’s ministry almost daily in order to learn how God, not people, sees and thinks about it. The things I mention here are the FRUITS of Johnson’s teachings, and his teachings draw the rebellious, the ambitious, the young, the immature, the confused, and the simple.

    Not everyone following this hybrid lifestyle is condemned but only those who learn/know they are in sin and choose to willfully continue. One of the members I know from the church above has such a dark spirit (inner unseen character) that his presence negatively affects people, animals, and life itself (no time to explain).

    Part of the great confusion with all these false teachings and lifestyles in Christianity is that many people who subscribe to the false stuff that people like Johnson teach have real gifts from God (e.g. the female pastor of the above church, who calls herself a prophet but usurps her husband’s position and whose every step is drenched in witchcraft, actually has an authentic prophetic gift from God), is that God’s gifts are without repentance, and He allows real and false gifts to operate together in order to (like Jesus used parables and ‘unseemly remarks’ to do) separate those who will follow Him (because they love the truth) from those who won’t follow Him because they love sin and really (beneath all the religious facade) hate God for His sovereignty and decision that those who love sin must receive only one sentence: eternal punishment. Afterall, God allows His gifts to operate in us who still have sin in our lives; those like Johnson are the same but take sin towards perfection. So, it’s not about healing or miracles (because, as you may know, no minister teaches 100% lies, and God allows the tares to mix with the wheat ‘until that Day’) but about obedience to God’s clearly revealed Word and will. Johnson’s followers aren’t the only ones who refuse to obey God’s revealed will; but ‘his kind’ have a pride, self-godhood (like the anti-Christ who sits in the temple claiming to be God), and disdain for God that He calls ‘an abomination’ and which can only find its end, reward, and fulfillment (literally, ‘satisfaction’) in judgment and eternal fire (look up ‘the abomination that causes desolation’).

    God views only certain things as abominations, and because of the high level of judgment reserved for abominations, He always warns and gives people time to get out while they can. We see this patience of His for the abominable or ‘accursed’ in Jesus’ giving Jezebel (an attitude that, in the opinion of anyone who treasures life and freedom, should be exempt from mercy) time to repent in Rev. 3 and His long-suffering for the most wicked and vile of people and criminals (who we would all prefer out of the picture). In Ps. 73, Asaph wrestled with God’s purpose for allowing the wicked and vile to keep taking up space on earth. He says, “When I thought how to understand this, it was too painful for me— until I went into the sanctuary of God; then I understood their END.” The end of the abominable is severe enough to give peace to the godly who hate sin and wonder about rebellion (i.e. this mystery of lawlessness). Pride (hatred for God, ‘all about me, not about God’) and witchcraft (hatred for people, ‘I’ll do what I want’) are ESPECIAL abominations to God, and if you will take time to look again at Johnson’s teachings, you will see them running over with these abominations. I hope this was helpful.

  214. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    amen, ibelieve gary! prayiing for sue.
    amen, magsdee!! you aren’t missing a thing, PTL!!
    amen, doddy.

    kathyg – thank you, sister. it really blesses ME to think that anything that i have learned on this ‘journey’ would be of use to someone else in this “Body of Christ’ that we are – i mean that from the bottom of my heart – good and bad – the LORD GOD WASTES NOTHING that we go through if we offer it back up to HIM for His glory – amen?? amen!!

    craig c – your words, once again, bring clarity. thank you.
    jeffm – yes, i read that as well, concerning the ‘fire’ at azuzu street – oh, praise the LORD!!

    greg burts – EXACTLY!!

    i AM encouraged and strengthened by all the truth and wisdom i find here among you. thank you and i mean that truly.

    i noticed as i was going back through the posts that ‘j nelson’ was leaving because i seem to have ‘offended’ him/her. i am sorry to ‘offend’ – no joy here – but, some come in here and are ‘sarcastic’ IMMEDIATELY and attack and say very unkind and critical and belittling things to the believers here – and i CONFESS that sometimes i want to ‘answer in turn’……but, what is strange is that they can ‘offend’ with no problem, but they are so easily ‘offended’ themselves IF you respond in the SAME way…..i need to be more PATIENT. please forgive me IF i have offended any of you here – it’s NOT my desire to do so but i get very ‘worked up’ at times with some of the things people actually come out with……this IS a ‘failing’, i know.

  215. debylynne, your last post that started with “DL wrote “got me thinking .I think we would both agree that any church meeting that has the mixture described in the article is something to stay away from. Now mixture , by definition ,has to have Jesus and the Holy Spirit doing things and then stuff not from God added to that. So mixture is Jesus plus things not of Christ mixed up together. That would descibe this blog and we both don’t have a problem with coming here.

    Thinking that something that is a demonic manifestation is the Holy Spirit is just as wrong as thinking that something that is the Holy Spirit is from a false spirit. So we need to warn people if we believe they are wrong but do we also judge their heart and tell other people what to do as if we are so wise that they need to listen to us? just thinking about it………………

  216. Darlene Sep 27th 2012

    Keep the warning coming, Andrew. Others of us are doing the same. It is love to point out the dangers and pitfalls of following after these men. The wolves go about “not sparing the flock.” It is part of the deception when so-called believers tell you that you are being harsh, critical, and doing damage to the Body of Christ for calling out the warnings. On the contrary, you are protecting and building up the sheep who have not fallen prey to these “wolves”. I did a lot of research on a group that came into the Grand Rapids Michigan area. As I learned more about their affiliations (Bentley, Joyner, etc.), I then looked into the backgrounds of six of the guest speakers who were to address the crowds at the Godstock events. One of the six was from India and was being sought after, in his home village, for child-trafficking charges. The authorities in his home village simply didn’t know where he was and that he was speaking here in my town. I contaced the local Christian radio stations who were advertising for the event. They didn’t know the connections the event had with Joyner and Bentley and promptly ended their promotion of event. It all eventually fizzled into nothing, though Joyner and Bentley had BIG plans for this area. Warning: many of the men in these groups have criminal sexual histories and Bob Jones, though not convicted, also has a public record of using “prophecy” to convince women to disrobe in his offices. There is plenty of that sort of behavior associated with many of them. My advice to fellow-believers is “do your homework”. Don’t entertain wolves in your churches or your homes, and don’t expose your families or young believers to them. You may find yourselves mourning over your own friends and children if you don’t heed the warnings from men like Andrew.

  217. Jordan Shepherd Sep 27th 2012

    May the Lord thrust out Shepherds into His harvest (Mt. 9:35-38). His peace is our weapon. We need the wisdom and the discernment and this will come through prayer and study of His word – line upon line. The foolish and immature will go for the honey, but the wise will hunger and thirst for righteousness, they shall be filled. Let your joy be complete and the love of God manifest in you. When they are in the minority, you can put them out from among you (1 Cor. 5:13), when they have taken over the congregation, come out from among them, and be separate, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,” (2 Corinthians 6:17). Warn others, then praise Him, thank Him, glorify Him, remain in His love, be filled with His Spirit, keep oil in your lamp.

  218. JeffM,

    Here’s my take. A person can be teaching or embracing heresy and not be an actual ‘heretic’. We can certainly challenge the teachings and identify them as heresy if they are indeed so. But, the only sure way to identify a heretic is to attempt to ask pointed questions to determine their belief; however, even that is not definitive as some just have a poor grasp of things. Only God truly knows the heart.

  219. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    heather anne – i just want to say that i think your ‘heart’ which is evident in your words is precious in the LORD and it lifts my heart just reading your words.

    i will say, once AGAIN, how much i wish there was a ‘like’ button lol!! i go back through the posts and there are so many i want to ‘like’ and i try and comment back but i actually ‘lose’ the names going back and forth up and down this long thread :-/

    ahhhh – the ‘joys’ of getting old!!

    to each one on here that has contributed wisdom, knowledge, information, encouragement and even, correction, where necessary – THANK YOU!!

  220. Hi Everyone,

    Great discussions! I am really blessed that for the most part this thread has been one where almost everyone is interested in discussing this with maturity.

    Thank you for your stories and adding resources. That’s so important because even though some that are reading are aware of these things, others will come later after this thread is closed, and be able to read up.

    You know, it’s one thing to read this stuff and nod and agree and be totally amazed that people buy into this, but it’s quite another to find yourself in church and with no warning, surrounded by it all.

    This way, people have been forewarned and they can be more discerning.

  221. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    hey jeff – definitely worth ‘examining’.

    are we ‘judging their heart’??
    1 Cor. 4
    5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

    in this verse we are told NOT to judge wrongly – we cannot TRULY judge the ‘motives of men’s hearts’ – we can only judge by what we see and hear – their actions and their words – the ‘fruit’ they bear…..but, does the above verse mean that we should NOT judge for the teaching of ‘false doctrine’?? God forbid!! we would have to ‘murder’ several other verses in the Bible to do so.

    i THINK the key to the above verse is the last part – ‘and then each man’s PRAISE will come to him from God’

    those that are TRULY deceivers will have NO praise from God, will they??

    i’m not really ‘sure’ what you mean here about the ‘mixture’ thing – i know of NO ‘church’ personally that has NO error in it because they have MEN (and women) in them and we are ALL perpetually prone to mistakes and ‘getting it wrong’ – but, there is ‘error’ and there is ‘ERROR’. somethings are NOT ‘essentials’ – promoting things as being the HOLY SPIRIT that are actually DEMONIC spirits would be just a ‘bit’ over the line, dont’ you agree??

    there are the ‘wolves’ – the ‘deceivers’ and there are the ‘decieved’ – my heart IS to have more mercy for those that are foolish – the WORD OF GOD is all we have to hold up to those that we believe are in error and it is ENOUGH – IF they truly believe it – it shows the TRUTH and it shines a light on the error – it isn’t just ‘our opinions’, i HOPE, that we are promoting here – but SOUND BIBLICAL TRUTH in order to WARN.

    please feel free to clarify if i have misunderstood your question??

    thanks, jeff!

  222. JeffM,

    Here’s a short article on this subject that I wrote a while back:


  223. Andrew– I appreciate a majority of the things you post on your website. However it does concern me that you have found a public forum to release your concern over Bill Johnson. Especially – if you are doing it merely from a strong opinion. Is this the word and council of the Lord. Has he commanded you to release this word? I realize you are sincere and are troubled by the mixture that has operated in the body of Christ. I believe God is raising up voices as yourself to challenge the church in this. What I am bothered by is the fact that Bill is a brother in the Lord. Is his motivation truly to deceive. I don’t believe it is by any stretch of the imagination. In fact I agree with him strongly in a number of areas- and yet I have checks in my spirit about others. I also agree strongly with you in a number of areas and also have checks in my spirit about you in others. I believe you mean well — but I don’t sense that some of your postings are carying the weight of God’s Thus Saith – I believe the warnings are good — as we are all called to watch and pray and contend for the faith given once for all! I just want to caution you that I don’t sense this was the Word of The Lord.

  224. Drew,

    You contend that Bill Johnson is “a brother in the Lord”. I won’t make that proclamation. In the same way I cannot know if Johnson is teaching heresy deliberately, I cannot know for sure if he’s a “brother in the Lord”. There are far too many NT warnings of false teachers/prophets for me to give Johnson that benefit given the myriad false teachings coming from his pulpit.

  225. Craig CrossWise (love your nick!)

    I agree with your thoughts on being a ‘heretic’.
    Thanks for your link.

    I was thinking about these mega churches that are teaching absolute heresy from their pulpits. Many of them have one charismatic leader, but many of them have several under him. Under that group are many others and then of course the congregation. I just can’t believe that every, single, believer in those churches are heretics.

    At any given moment in time, there is someone coming to their senses and walking away from all this nonsense.

    I know when i was in the midst of a lot of foolishness, I might have LOOKED like a heretic, but the truth is that I was always questioning in my heart. I never felt like things were ‘quite right’, ever. I wanted to serve God! I THOUGHT that I was!

    I understand why it is important not to judge paint everyone with the same brush and to be sensitive and careful to realize that there ARE true believers caught up in this stuff.

    In my mind though, God will call them out. He won’t allow them to stay, He will be speaking to them and calling them out. That to me is a sign that they are a true believer. “My sheep know my voice” and God will discipline and chastise a true son or daughter.
    They CAN’T stay in deception, but they quite possibly can be found right in the midst of it, for a time. I believe that. In fact, I LIVED that!

  226. DL,

    Your testimony is one of the reasons I wrote that article the way I did (although in re-reading it just now I’m not sure I was exactly clear that there are saved folks in these ‘movement’s – I may have to reword a portion of it for clarify). I know of others who’ve had similar experiences.

    I nearly was sucked into it myself 5 years ago, though, by the grace of God, I was spared. My impetus for the research and writing came from the one individual who nearly got me into it as this individual still is (as far as I know) and then the others I’ve read about subsequent to this.

    You wrote, “They CAN’T stay in deception, but they quite possibly can be found right in the midst of it, for a time. I believe that. In fact, I LIVED that!” Yes, His sheep know His voice, as you say! They may stay in it for a LONG while, though. But, then again, I’m concerned by Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:13, “but he who stands firm to the end will be save” (which I don’t wish to be dogmatic on either way – Arminian or Calvinistic).

  227. On the above, the “Your testimony” should be “Testimonies like yours…” instead.

  228. debylynne Sep 27th 2012

    i have to agree with craig on this concerning bill johnson and his ministry – there is NO way to know that someone IS a genuine brother when what they are ‘teaching and promoting’ contains so much that is NOT of God…..

    let us NOT forget, please, that the way the enemy deceives so MANY in the body of Christ is by there being SOMETHING that ‘seems’ so ‘must be God’ as a ‘hook’ that we ‘lay down’ our discernment and throw our arms and hearts wide open to what is being offered.

    i.e. – ‘street ministry’ – ‘helping the poor’ – ‘good works’ – these things SAY – see – we are doing GOOD!!! but, dear brothers and sisters – we MUST look beyond the ‘seemingly good’ things to what is being ‘released’ from the ‘underside’, shall we say??

    the ‘new age’ deceit looks GOOD in a lot of ways – i have family members that ’embrace’ it…..because it SEEMS so ‘light filled’ and ‘warm and tolerant’….do you understand??? they say, ‘oh, we believe in JESUS’ but their ‘Jesus’ is NOT the LORD we see in the Word of God – it is ‘another jesus’.

    these are the things that WE decide make something ‘real and OF God’.

    the LORD JESUS began to preach and what did HE preach??




    but, what do ‘these men and women’ STRESS and EMPHASIZE??

    NOT ‘holiness’ without which no one will see the LORD.

    please, don’t be deceived by thinking it is WRONG to ‘reject’ a ‘ministry’ AND WARN OTHERS that is CLEARLY teaching error and promoting things that are NOT of the LORD and yet, they’re ‘nice people’……

    i’ve never ‘liked’ having to ‘take a stand’ – i was raised to be a ‘sweet southern girl’ that NEVER offends and NEVER does anything that is not considered ‘good manners’ – but i’ll bite the bullet and do it. there is too much at stake not to.

    DL – yes yes yes. absolutely!!

  229. Craig,
    We agree.
    It’s really interesting to me to see the different ministries and giftings and callings that God has given His church, even “here” on the forums.

    There are those called to be “watchmen” and to sound the trumpet of impeding danger. Others, start to teach and give references of sound doctrine. Still others, begin to get along side and encourage and build up and implore others by getting right in the trenches with them, to help them out.

    Can we all agree that every one of these people are needed? If there were only Watchmen and no one in the trenches actually helping the people out? What if there were no Bereans to teach the people?

    That’s why I think in some ways, we need to free up each other to do what God has anointed us to do, best.

    We NEED the Andrew Stroms of the Body, and we NEED the Bereans to teach and challenge us in the Word. I am not saying that many of us can have a few of these giftings and we minister with many hats, I am just saying that often we can criticize each others methods, because we don’t understand the different callings. We only see it from our little corner of the world.

    Bottom line, Jesus warned us that in the last days this would happen. We have to face up to the facts that from here on in folks, there will be be more and more error. We have to learn to work with one another to contend for the faith.

  230. debylynne, the mixture is not safe at any level, but like you say we see it in every church so we look for an acceptable ( to us) level of mixture. But church as it is practised is not like church in the new testament. It should be just the believers getting together in private for a meeting and then at another time a public meeting to take the word to people who refuse to obey the Word of God.

    A new testament church meeting should be a group that meets and they all will do whatever Jesus tells them to do. These open to the public church meetings that people have is a free-for-all fight with mixture that can never be won. The biblical meeting together of those who obey Jesus is not being practised.

  231. KathyG. Sep 28th 2012

    DL… Great comment and what a simple way to put it. I Couldn’t have said it better myself….thank you!!!

  232. DL,

    Yes, I agree; one body, many parts. But, one thing that’s really important to me is to keep a sense of humor. So, to lighten things up: I’ve noted that in Johnson’s When Heaven Invades Earth there are quite a few times in which a personal pronoun (He, His) is not capitalized when it is (or seems to be) referring to Jesus while for the most part all other occasions show the pronoun capitalized. The reulstant confusion reminded me of poor Daffy Duck with Bugs and Elmer:


  233. ahaha We all feel like that poor duck, sometimes! :) That was great – my husband is going to love it!

    And………..in a humorous way, it DOES illustrate the confusion.

    The duck/rabbit hunter just wants to shoot his prey. I’ve have to admit I have been the hunter that shot the WRONG prey, at times! Dear Lord………..

  234. Thank you so much for posting this and continuing to speak truth. The church we went to for 36 years was just split apart because of this type of teaching. A new pastor came and is slowly but surely bringing in the teachings of Randy Clark, attending the conferences, taking the youth to them, etc. Some of us felt a check in our spirits about things he was saying, and began to research and found the things he was bringing in were warned about over and over by others. We shared your videos and were soundly reprimended. We are told we are “afraid” and “putting God in a box”. It is hard to even believe that our once unified, healthy, growing church is now split apart and we are heartbroken. The focus of our church was changed from being an outreach-oriented, Biblical-centered church to one focused on signs and wonders, impartations, manifestations, prophecies, etc. We are a part of a group who left and have started a new church, but it has been devestating for our friendships, and we are concerned because so many have no idea what happened or why. We are afraid the fallout will be enormous. There has been no clarity brought to the situation here and there is much confusion. We feel like we have to be so careful what we say and who we talk to, as we have been accused of wanting control, being critical, and spreading lies. How do we sound the alarm without damaging our relationships? This is such a divisive thing here, many who we thought were our friends barely speak to us. So much of what you have said we are seeing right before our eyes. This is affecting our whole community of churches and we are praying that somehow there can be some teaching locally on this. This is all basically new to our community and the others pastors seem clueless as to how to address this. Please pray for us and continue to speak out….it is so important.

  235. dear joan w.
    you said
    “No sin is too grave that God willl not forgive (except blaspheming the Holy Spriit, of course). Isn’t it sad we seem not to want to forgive the sinner. Oh we say we forgive the sinner but hate the sin, But, somehow, the sinner keeps getting glued to the sin.”

    dear sister – i don’t understand how you mean this as it pertains to this deception??

    To Debyl:
    I’m So sorry to confuse you debylynne, so badly written on my part.
    I was broken hearted for Alice in the way ‘her church couldn’t truthfully forgive her. I went through that kind of piety/finger pointing at one time…judging others AND their sins. Yes, I was a Christian in that era too, but how unforgiving I was. I was in my era of “God’s gonna zap ya for that”.

    Her message made me want to cry…for I had been among those to hurt her so! And all because of my ignorance!!. Yes, God will forgive us when we ask for forgiveness. The followers of deception and false spirits can also be forgiven: When His people, called by His Name’…….. Thanks to Andrew, and other Watchmen for sounding the alarm!

  236. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    jeff – i understand what you are saying. the ‘group’ that we are gathering together with at present is much more like a ‘house church’ than i’ve known since i was in one back in the 70s and 80s – BUT, we meet in a building – not a ‘church’ – actually the front part of a ‘machine shop’ lol!! are there things there that i question?? some. not much. but some. the ‘pastor/elder’ came out of the UPC that he was raised up in and he is VERY clear on NOT accepting the NAR, or WOF, or these other so-call ‘charismatic’ ministries that are promoting so much unBiblical stuff. we sat down with him and questioned and examined MUCH before we decided that the LORD was INDEED encouraging us to gather with them. he is a precious and humble brother in the LORD as are others that are there but i do NOT, for one minute think that they ‘have it all perfect’. i have no ‘expectation’ of that – but we KNOW that the LORD has led us to be ‘with’ them in this season, for whatever HIS purpose and so, we will. i was perfectly ready to continue ‘at home’ but i am now quite thankful that the LORD has led us this way because i have TRULY come to realize how much we NEED this Body that we ARE a part of. we are NOT called to be ‘lone rangers’ IF WE HAVE A CHOICE – i honestly believe that – we ARE a BODY.

    i believe you are RIGHT – i feel that the ‘gathering of the believers’ should be for THEIR edification and teaching and encouraging one another and each one bringing something the LORD has put on their hearts for just that purpose – and, to a GREAT extent, this is what happens in our ‘gatherings’. it IS encouraged.

    but, i also WISH that ‘outreach’ meetings were done more – directed at reaching the LOST – this ‘man of God’ is very open to what each of us has to bring and another brother who has begun meeting with us has a TRUE evangelistic heart – especially for the ‘unlovely’ and ‘unwanted’ here – he works in this way already – has for many years – and i am believing that as we PRAY and seek GOD that He will lead us into doing just that! meetings or gatherings or whatever you want to call them to REACH OUT and draw in……..

    this is actually what we sought to do for over 3 years out of the ‘ministry’ in our coffee house – we had a large gathering room in the back and we ‘labored’ to bring in the lost and to reach the young there – but, sadly, only with seemingly very limited enduring results – a few have STOOD, but so many of the ‘young’ especially just do NOT seem ‘mature’ enough perhaps to ‘stand’….we ran into a problem because everyone around here wants a ‘church’ to go to if they are going to be a ‘Christian’ and we had nowhere to send them – nowhere that we KNEW they would be ‘Biblically discipled’…..we tried doing it all ourselves but ran into the BIG problem with some other young people coming in and pushing IHOP – oh, well, THAT’S another story!!!

    but, i still believe what you are saying IS the most ‘Biblical mandate’ on how to ‘operate’ in gatherings of true believers.

    i have great HOPE since we began meeting with this small group of believers and it is the first time in many years i have let myself feel this way…..

  237. Ellie, I’m so sorry that happened to you and your church ((hugs)). It brought me back to about 25 years ago when I was in a situation that was similar.

    Church splits are the WORST pain, ever. Your church family IS family, and sometimes even closer than biological. When they split over doctrine (necessary split, of course) you often don’t even know where you stand with one another.

    I remember feeling so close to my brothers and sisters, that I would never believe that ANYTHING would have driven us apart. After the split, those same people would cross the street, so as to avoid us. sigh

    It’s all so painful, but be encouraged! You haven’t seen the end of the story yet. In my case, a lot of those people came out of it. It took years, but they now see it clearly. Sadly, some of the leaders aren’t even serving God today. So, there ARE casualties, but it’s because we are in a war. War always brings casualties

  238. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    dear joan w.
    i understand!!! thank you for clearing that up and amen, it IS grievious that supposed ‘believers’ do that to the wounded and hurting….

    thank GOD that when we repent – HE FORGIVES EVEN ‘WE’ THAT HURT OTHERS!!!! amen!

    thank you, joan!!

  239. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    dear ellie
    my heart aches for you. i so understand where you are…..when we left our former ‘nar’ church, we were ORDERED not to talk to other people in the church, not to be ‘trouble makers’, to ‘leave everyone alone’ or we would be sinning against the LORD and we had that scripture quoted to us about the ‘divisive brother’…sigh…….
    we were still under such ‘intimidation’ that we pretty much did what they said and then people started calling us and wanting to know WHY we were not there and it was VERY VERY HARD. we truly did NOT want to ‘grieve’ the LORD and we were still so ‘uncertain’ about what we could and could not trust any longer……AND still laboring under the ‘touch not God’s anointed’ curse!!
    THANK GOD, we got free of all that…but, we DID lose many relationships in the process. some left, as well. but, many more rejected us. but, honestly, that church is ‘no more’ – there were other things that were going on ‘under the surface’ that were clear sin and the end finally came and the ‘pastor’ refused to ‘obey’ the word of the MAIN prophet/apostle who told him he was supposed to move about 2 hours away to go to work ‘assisting’ this prophet guy…..sigh………………and it DID all come ‘tumbling down’.
    the only real sad thing is that the ‘pastor’ still does NOT see that it is a ‘polluted river’ and chooses rather to believe that the problem was just with this particular ‘prophet/apostle’, who i might add, is IN VERY THICK with dutch sheets……and the beat goes on…..

    THAT was another one whose books i simply could NOT make sense of – his and chuck pierce’s………but, oh, i TRIED!!

  240. Hey Debylynne and gang. I have the answer! Nah, don’t thank me….;)

    We keep hearing that Christians are going to these Prophetic Conferences, meetings, etc., and coming back with this ‘new revelation’ junk. Ok, so I say..make a rule that churches aren’t allowed to go to these! LOL

    Obviously, I am being silly. But, in all seriousness, my husband and I were discussing that the problem of all false doctrine infiltrating the church, goes back even further than the False Leadesrs. The very foundation of the church is challenged in the way that we structure our churches.

    Now ‘back in the day’ my church was huge on the 5-fold ministry. Oh, then someone came up with the bright idea that it was only FOUR-fold because Pastor/Teacher was 1 separate, office. :) Anyway, there WAS some truth in all this. God, did set the church up in a particular way, for a particular reason.

    Have we not come very far away from this structure? Maybe the culture I live in (I’m not in the US or New Zealand) is different than you all, but the churches I have attended have not structured their churches after this model. Some have tried, but usually end up with some people elected board deal, and far from scriptural. Then when the churches crashes and burns, miserably, and it will! The people long for more and then go outside the walls of the church to these so-called mover/shaker conferences. Then they bring this stuff back and because there are no God appointed LEADERS at their posts, the people bring this junk in and teach it to others. I think these big time MOVIE STAR PREACHERS have more influence on the local church, than even their own leaders, from within. This should not be!

    My obvious point is..we can plug up the hole so-to-speak where error gets in, but if we don’t shore up the foundation and begin to structure the church like Jesus told us to, then we’re always doing DAMAGE CONTROL! We’re never really getting to the root of the issues of how and why, this error is infiltrating.

  241. Hey DL, I think you are right in your last post!

    I think Church leaders and congregants should boldly stand up to the people who come to service on Sunday, spouting the newest and greatest revelations from these false teachers.

    The person who promotes the newest and greatest should be told to be quiet, and if they continue they should be removed from the congregation.

    This is the model Paul gave to the Corinthians.

    But everyone, from Pastor to congregant, are too afraid to hurt people in this day and age, however, and the church is paying the price for allowing false teachings (and immorality) into their congregations.


  242. Lee, I can just hear the opposition now. “But you’ll stifle the flow of the Holy Spirit!” I heard that all the time, and I even SAID that! Round and round we go.

    Today we have Christian Leaders who are afraid of men, who have no fear of God, and who are mute and silenced and cowering in the corner. The bible calls these leaders mute dogs. They can’t or WON’T bark.

    They are like parents who let their teenagers run the home.

    What happens when you stand up to your teenager when he’s been allowed to rule the home? He balks and protests and throws a fit. What happens if you can get his heart? Years later he looks you in the eye and thanks you and when he has children of his own, he parents the way his parents have parented him.

    Is it too late for the church? If leaders stood up and said; “NO!”, would people eventually respect them for it? I don’t know. I do know that they would be no call to follow after the latest fancy smancy teaching, if the 5-fold leadership in the church was doing it’s God appointed job.

  243. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    dear DL and lee – you are both VERY VERY right.
    we have no ‘board’ at this ‘gathering’ we are in and MUCH of what goes on is a very Biblical standard – BUT, one thing that DOES trouble me is that the ‘pastor/elder’ overseer! is very kind and i am not sure if he will openly ‘challenge’ someone…..i understand – if you ENJOY that sort of thing then i might have to question your ‘motive’?? BUT, still it must be done. there was someone in the meeting who actually got up and shared about God healing them 14 years ago from a large brain tumor (they live locally and it IS true, although it WAS effected through surgery – but still, it was amazing how quickly they recovered with NO lingering of any problem since that time – which was NOT the prognosis given by the doctors!) but then she began to talk about going to nashville to a ‘jesse duplantis’ meeting and some things he said about knowing the WORD and so forth…..i WAS bothered by it even though she barely ‘alluded’ to this and i spoke with the pastor afterwards and he said that NO, he does not receive anything from that ‘camp’ because so much of it is NOT scriptural and they are literally changing the ‘doctrine of the gospel of JESUS CHRIST’ and making ‘less’ of HIM and ‘MORE of THEM. he has spoken of NOT holding with the whole ‘prosperity teaching WOF’ before but he did not say anything when she spoke of ‘jesse’. but, i realized he did not WANT to ‘come against’ her in her ‘testimony’ – sigh……………but, i worry about those that HEAR these things and then think, ‘well, he didn’t say anything about it then’…….still wrestling with THIS one!! i think that by nature he is simply a kindly and gentle man and this may be something the LORD has to address with him…………………..

  244. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    DL – truth!!!!

  245. Debylynne, my husband is a very kind and gentle man by nature. But if anyone tried to hurt ME or our kids?? You’d see a very different man!

    In my opinion, personality has nothing to do with it. It’s the anointing of God that does it. If GOD, Himself has called this man, or any man, to a post, he must do whatever needs to be done.

    Part of his task and calling is to correct and discipline the sheep. If he can’t do that, he has no business being in the ministry. I don’t mean to be harsh, but weak Pastors have a the very LEAST contributed to this mess, so we need to speak frankly.

    It’s fine to take a switch to the false prophets, but let’s not forget all the men that have ALLOWED this to come in. They are just as responsible as the false prophet. Jeremiah 23:1-8 & Ezekiel 34

  246. DL:

    Is it too late for the church? I think no, IF leaders would take a stand. Sure there would be a uprising and outcry from many who would say the leaders are too harsh and are mean-spirited and judgmental. Such people, and their false leaders, should be asked to leave and they could even start their own churches.

    It could help to have clear-cut division in the charismatic denomination, rather than the confusing allowance of mixture that is leading so many astray today … in the name of love and tolerance :(

  247. Also …
    since I have a comment that is still awaiting moderation (maybe too many youtube/external links in the comment?) I wanted to repost this for you DebyLynne:

    Wow, DebyLynne! Yours is a very serious testimony that should be given as a warning to those who are starting to dabble in these false teachings and false spirits. Your testimony and ANG’s should be up on some website somewhere to be able to be seen by those who are ignorantly starting down the road of Bethel et al and where your testimonies could be seen by those trying to escape the demonic forces that they let in as they try to escape the Bethel teachings. I believe you could help many, if you perhaps had a blog where people could comment and ask you questions … ??

  248. Re-posting for HARVEY ROSIEUR without all the external YouTube Links, so the comment doesn’t have to wait for moderation :

    I too personally know some people caught up in this movement. And some of them are THE MOST loving and happy people I know. They seem to love Jesus so much and are so excited about the things “of god”. And this brings even MORE confusion to the Body as we are tempted to over-look their false teachings and strange experiences because they are just so darn likeable!!! And after-all, they just “love Jesus so much”.

    Even as you have asked Harvey, “What’s the harm”, so others have said that to me also, “The teachings aren’t that bad. So-and-so loves the Lord so much, so the teachings are hurting them that much. It’s not that bad. Nobody knows everything perfectly anyway.” As though joy and a happy personality is the plumb-line for doctrine?

    I know many out-right New Agers who are extremely happy and loving people, so just having a nice disposition doesn’t mean we are “correct” theologically.

    The problem I am seeing is that Christians are REFUSING to expose or strongly STAND AGAINST many of these False Teachings and experiences, because they are being brought into the Churches by our friends … by our really, nice, loving, kind, long-time friends. Or are being brought in by our relatives. And Christians are choosing to take the side of friends and relatives and by doing such are standing in opposition to God and His Word, and this then opens the true Christian up to deception because he/she REFUSES to love the Truth of God more than love a friend or relative.

    Matthew 10 –
    34 – Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 – For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36 – a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

    We must steel our hearts to be prepared to be persecuted … by our own family members if necessary … as we stand on the Word only as the Truth. A very sad thought, but a very true statement.

    Harvey, you also asked, “If Jesus expected John The Baptist to believe on the basis of what He had done, can we not do the same?”

    Yes, we could accept people as true ministers of the gospel if indeed their signs and wonders and doctrine were like those performed by and/or taught by Jesus and His Apostles.

    The Apostles healings were healings performed “In the name of Jesus”. There was no “BAM” screamed at people (google Bentley baptizing people while continually yelling BAM)
    And there was no punching or kicking people to get them healed. No fire tunnels. And no Angels were ever called down to release healings or revivals.

    The Apostle Paul states that this is to our SHAME that we put up with such charlatans:

    2 Corinthians 11 –
    19 – You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20 – In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face. (google Bentley boasting of punching someone to heal them from cancer, or pounding a lady’s legs on stage to get her healing)

    Jesus and the Apostles did not shake or vibrate nor did they teach that this is normal Christian experience as Che Ahn Teaches (Google Che Ahn + “do-christians-vibrate-new-mystics-ihop” )

    Jesus and the Apostles did not teach that we would Bark or Roar, Open Portals, Dig Up new wells of Revival. They did not teach that we could ALL learn to prophesy or that we could prophesy at will. And Jesus and the Apostles never taught that we could learn how to enter Heaven at will to have visions and new revelations whenever we want. Yet all of these things ARE being taught by Bill Johnson and those who speak or teach at his church.

    These are SOME of the signs, wonders and teachings that Bill Johnson and his fellow teachers teach, yet not one of these signs or wonders or doctrines are found in the Bible. These are extra-biblical signs, wonders and teachings, and sometimes they are outright contrary to Bible doctrine.

    And so, the answer to your question is that we cannot believe these people … our friends, our loved ones, nor any smooth talking good sounding teacher, no matter how many followers he has … we cannot believe them just for the sake that signs and wonders are following them. Because their signs and wonders are not Biblical.

    Their teachings MUST line up with correct Bible doctrine. If their doctrine does not line up with the Bible, then their signs and wonders are false.


  249. Darlene Sep 28th 2012

    I want to keep this entire thread open to read every post. It’s so encouraging to encounter like-minded believers (for the most part). I’ve been in Andrew’s shoes and know how it feels to be shut-down for speaking warning…even if it is gently presented. This is encouraging! I also love what Jordan Shephard presented in this statement:

    “When they are in the minority, you can put them out from among you (1 Cor. 5:13), when they have taken over the congregation, come out from among them, and be separate, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,” (2 Corinthians 6:17). Warn others, then praise Him, thank Him, glorify Him, remain in His love, be filled with His Spirit, keep oil in your lamp.”

    Something that struck me as profound. It addresses the “when to stay and when to go” question. In our last church (and we currently are not in a church due to lack of solid and stable fellowship in our area), the pastor began to teach POSITIVELY on polygamy. We couldn’t take it. We addressed him with elders present, and left. There was an obvious absence of the presentation of the Gospel in that church and the fruit was according to that absence. Jordan’s statement was very helpful to me. Many local churches in our area are embracing some of the “fresh fire” false gospel that is rooted in Kansas City. The local churches are being tainted and it is disheartening.

  250. Amen Lee, amen!
    I had a thought further to my comment about stifling a true move of God.

    One of the reasons I have come to my conclusion that poor and weak leadership must accept the lion’s share of the blame for false doctrine coming in is…….

    In our quest to find a healthy fellowship, we’ve been going to a local Church. So far, there has been sound doctrine taught. The Pastor has not allowed in any of these false doctrines. We have only a few times, seen some strange manifestations, but they were NOT encouraged.

    But…………..the leadership apart from the Pastor is obsessed with the culture and movies and sports…and HARRY POTTER and TWILIGHT books…you get the picture. Nothing has EVER been preached openly from the pulpit. In fact, on our facebook church page, the leaders’ have had a sale for missions and many of the leaders are selling their Harry Potter books and Twilight and much of their unGodly rock music. SELLING it! It makes me ill, honestly, it does.

    Please, I am not a religious prude. What I am saying is my heart is broken for the youth. This culture is promoted in the church by example. The Pastor not standing up and speaking out, IS condoning it. The Pastor and his wife are wonderful, Godly people, but they don’t speak out against this stuff.

    The Pastor’s son is in leadership and he is allowed to preach and be very focal in the church. He is obsessed with this certain rock band. I did a search of their music. Horrible evil stuff! Nobody says anything. In fact, I suspect if you did? You’d be branded legalistic.

    So my point is that just because you have found a church that doesn’t allow some of the stuff we’ve been discussing here, doesn’t mean that the leadership is sound and doctrinally correct. As I stated above, sound doctrine IS being taught, but it’s not what’s being taught, it’s what is NOT being taught. There are whole subjects that are never addressed from the front door.

    I’m convinced that the common denominator in all error in the church comes down to two things. Weak leadership and people who’s hearts are drifting from their God. False Prophets wouldn’t last 2 minutes if both were correct in the local church. They’d carry on down the road to the next church……and the next……

  251. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    DL – i understand what you are saying and i have heard him ‘correct’ – i am NOT sure why he didn’t say anything when she mentioned jesse duplantis :-/ i see a ‘sit down and talk about this in our future’. my husband is also a very quiet and gentle man and he IS reticent to say things until he is SURE about what he’s thinking (a GOOD quality but also sometimes a bit FRUSTRATING :-/) but, of course, NOT when it comes to someone ‘harming’ his family!!

    lee – what can i say? i feel almost certain that some here may have a problem with your ‘adamant’ stand but all i hear is the truth………….

    i have not considered doing what you suggest before – i will talk to my husband about it and see what he thinks. one aspect of my ‘situation’ was spoken about in andrew’s book…..dealing with the ‘effect’ of the kundalini spirit!!

  252. Jesse Birkey,

    You wrote, “…we should be careful about turning people completely against him.”

    People need to be against the ministry of the Johnson’s. We should pray for them, not follow them.

    Todd Bentley CANNOT be restored or recommended to the body of Christ while he rejects true repentance and continues in his adulterous remarriage, as Bill Johnson imagines. Many are blinded and trapped in adulterous remarriages but don’t know it because they’ve been deceived by the leaven false doctrine on the subject, yet Jesus couldn’t have been clearer on it. Jesus said divorcing your spouse and marrying another is adultery; it is not a marriage. This truth is a matter of life or death, heaven or hell. Unrepentant adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God but will end up in the Matthew 7:21-23 group. Endorsing adultery is Satan’s evil work, not the work of the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus did NOT need to be born again, as Bill Johnson teaches. This is a serious error on the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus was the spotless SIN OFFERING for us on the Cross. Jesus did NOT become sin, yet Bill Johnson says He became sin and needed to be born again! Messing with the blood atonement is no joke. What happened on the Cross is foundational teaching. Claiming that Jesus was not the holy Lamb of God at Calvary is Satan’s hideous work, as he hates Jesus, despises His pure blood, and curses the Cross of Christ.

    Bill Johnson is a false teacher and his wife and daughter-in-law are teaching and preaching serious deception as well.

    Naming names *is* love – love for God, which is the first commandment of all, and love for your neighbor. Most professing believers today have it the other way around, so they think that if you warn the brethren of those teaching damnable heresies then you aren’t showing God’s love, but nothing could be further from the truth.

    You wrote, “What this article has effectively done is make the Johnsons the stand-in for the kingdom of darkness so we attack them instead of attacking the darkness.”

    They are pawns for the kingdom of darkness, not stand-ins. They are accomplishing the devil’s work – all in the name of Jesus – and Brother Strom’s article is love in action and milder than the book of Jude.

  253. AB, respectfully, where is chapter and verse to say that the term: “adulterous remarriage” exists?

    Whew, can I ever hear the cans of worms being OPENED NOW!

    I am divorced and remarried.

    I did not even obtain a scriptural divorce! I have sinned! Period. No excuses. I could say, “oh but I wasn’t a true believer then, but it would be stretching it. I could say, well I had scriptural grounds, but again, that would be stretching it. I unlike, Todd, didn’t commit adultery and remarry. I sinned by divorcing. I didn’t stay single or reconcile like the word said. I let a few years pass, but I remarried and NOW I see that I was wrong. I have repented of that sin and asked for forgiveness and I have determined to ‘go and sin no more’.

    I absolutely agree with you that Todd Bentley is not a qualified leader, even if he were to repent and come clean, he still is not qualified in my eyes, because he teaches false doctrine.

    The term; “adulterous marriage or remarriage” does not exist in scripture. The Bible teaches against divorce exception for two reasons. When a CHRISTIAN sins and commits adultery by divorcing his/her wife and remarrying (Jesus calls it ADULTERY, clearly) then he/she must repent. However, divorcing their current spouse to show TRUE repentance is not taught in the Bible. Sadly, Bentley has ‘made his bed’ so to speak. He cannot divorce this current wife and it will all be better.

    There is no term called “adulterous remarriage”. It is called marriage. The Catholic Church teaches this continuous state of adultery and I do not see that in scripture at all.

    While we are at it? Many, sincerely blood-bought Christians that love Jesus but have failed Him miserably have divorced and remarried and are now shunned from the church unless,, or until, they divorce their current spouse.

    This is not right. Divorce is wrong, it is not the prescription for sin. Divorce is yet another sin.

    I will bow out gracefully now and let you all throw tomatoes at me! LOL

  254. ps This is just my interpretation. I do not believe that a man that has been divorced in the past, (after conversion) can be qualified as a Pastor/Elder, Biblically. I do believe there are other places of leadership that they can serve, but not the office of a Pastor/Elder.
    My feeling isn’t because God is modeling to the Body they are bad and this is one sin that cannot be forgiven. I believe this because it’s says so in the Word, clearly and it is just prudent in the natural.
    Whenever you have a divorced believer you h ave a lot of very wounded souls. Putting a person like this in the front lines, is unwise. I don’t believe this principle speaks to this horrible person that cannot be forgiven and therefore, not trusted..rather it speaks to the wisdom of a loving Father that will not ask a man as such, to be put on the front lines. That’s my honest feeling.

  255. Foolhardy Fred Sep 28th 2012

    There is NO love whatsoever in allowing the scripturally ignorant, spiritually naive and just plain rebellious to go to hell because of this nonsense.

    Restating the Word of God and comparing TRUE teaching with those of the heretics and leaders of the apostate church in general is an expression of the ultimate love.

    Exposing people to the Word of Truth and how these people have perverted it, often for personal gain of one form or another, provides an opportunity for people to respond and thereby receive the gift of eternal life which God has made available to all.

    What excellent teaching is provided for us in this passage of scripture as we attempt to address the perversions that have invaded the christian church like a tsunami:

    2 Corinthians 6

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

    2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

    3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

    4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

    5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;

    6 By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

    7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

    8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

    9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

    10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

    11 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.

    12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.

    13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.

    14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

    15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

    16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

    18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

  256. DeWayne Sep 28th 2012

    I believe 1 Cr 4:5 points out an important difference concerning judgment, in this condition a judgment unto death, about this the word does tell us a time is coming when we (1 Cor 6:2) will judge the world.

    However in this time right now there is also a judgment unto life, for those that learn from it, and this is described concerning the mature servant within the will and pirpose of the Lord called the spiritual man (1 Cor 3:15) who shall make judgments in all things. This certainly should make even a mature Christian quake (fear and trembling).

    None the less, judging within the will and purpose of the Lord is very important and which we are instructed to be prepared (Titus 2:15)… These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

  257. Foolhardy Fred Sep 28th 2012

    Andrew Strom, warnings such as this are absolutely crucial for those who truly love the Lord Jesus Christ and are of the genuine body of Christ.

    I urge you to continue to address “the issues” as and when you become aware of them. There are so many you cannot possibly believe that it is acceptable to stop here with this one.

    There must be NO compromise with false teaching and false leaders whatsoever as eternal damnation is irrevocable once the opportunity to repent and turn to God has been removed.

  258. Nicole Sep 28th 2012


    I have not read all of your postings but I read the last one and probably need to go back and re read it.

    What you have stated is truth. And you have brought up some very good points.

    The “refusal” is great here in America and I am sure it is the same in other countries, because these streams are spreading like wild fires and everyone is getting inter connected.

    There was someone that posted early on asking questions IF this person or that person had ever gone up to B. Johnson and these folks and presented the truths to them.

    To answer that question, YES, they have. I was amongst them and even had friends at one point and time and it was as if they either never “heard” what we were saying or they were completely waxed cold in their own errors.

    I came out of this group , having only been in it long enough to see the ill effects of the lack of Truth and the real Jesus.

    I have been to B.Johnson conferences and at that time they were co mingled w/ “guest speakers ” namely like Patricia King, T. Bentley, R. Joyner, Matt Sorger, Keith Miller, Bobby Conners, Bob Jones, newer comers, like Joan Hunter, (daughter of Charles and Frances Hunter) Mark Chirronna, Jeff Jenson, Randy Demain, at that time, Heidi Baker was speaker, also, as was, some others from I HOP. ( one lady is deceased now)

    All these people had “each other ” in common. There would be fire tunnels and the spirit that moved them was not the HOLY SPIRIT. IT WAS the kundalini spirit. Most often though, when you are involved in this type of ministries, and support the speakers, you do not recognize it. Matter of fact, most all people that are involved in these ministries, believe that all these people are true lovers of Jesus Christ, The Same Jesus Christ that you or I are praying to.

    It is not until you get out of it that you see “truth” and in that, “truth” being completely committed to the ONE and Only Jesus Christ , ALLOWING HIM to search you, AT ALL COSTS. ( and it does cost you) It is in HIS TIMING that when you completely plead w/ our Father, His Son, and Holy Spirit and your heart is so on fire for wanting to do what HE wants you to do, (remember now, the Lord knows your heart, even though we can try to convince HIM we know it better) But somehow, after you come out of that grouping, YOU WILL NEVER EVER HOPEFULLY GO BACK TO IT.

    Here is an analogy.

    We went out for breakfast this morning, w/ a couple we can fellowship w/. And truly , we don’t have that one on one w/ anyone but them, because we left everyone behind.

    But we don’t eat out very often, for many reasons and one is that we eat what most people would look down on. We watch what we eat and don’t eat the normal good old pancakes and gravies and wheats and SUGARS etc.etc.etc. not even the sausages , except on very special occations like today.

    I ate a nice “unhealthy meal” of huge bisquit and sausage and (w/o the country gravy) and lots of butter and honey. Because I don’t eat like this , my body reacted to it and even now, several hours later, I am full, and tired and just not myself. My body rejected it in a sort of way. The toxic MSG in my sausage ripped through my body and gave me a massive headache etc.etc.etc. I knew how to counter it, w/ the right enzymes, but I still had some after effects.

    Now , years ago, my body, husband’s and our friends, would not have reacted like this. We ate what we wanted to , enjoyed the massive amounts and washed it down w/ plenty of coffee and it didn’t faze us, but today, we all walked away w/ wanting to unbuckle the buckle, or button and have someone roll us back to the car.

    The point is, WE CHANGED, we changed our eating habits and we did w/o the sugars, the glutens, the MSG etc.etc.etc. and being that we changed our eating habits for a long time, doing w/o, we realized just how bad and foriegn this stuff can be in our bodies.

    It is the same way w/ these ministries. I remember hopping around, hands raised and screaming outloud, JESUS COME , and asking for HIS GOLD FLAKES or SIGNS AND WONDERS TO PENETRATE THE PLACE. I was 100% convienced that it was our Lord and Savior. (just like I once thought that food really didn’t have a reaction on our bodies or sugar)

    The point I am making is, there are people out there that truly believe that B. Johnson is “the real deal” and that “so what if he has a little mixture” “it isn’t going to hurt, I will only take in the good stuff, and spit out the bad stuff”.

    There is no way to do it. Just like in a sausage , you can not take the MSG out of a prepared sausage patty and you will get the after effects no matter what , if you are sensitive to it.

    Only the Lord, His Holy SPirit will open the eyes of those that really want HIM and it will be in HIS TIMING. We can warn people but what is happening is this

    They usually will argue w/ you, and then spread rumors or gossip about you, or turn others from you. They think we are controling, mis informed and also critical and judgemental.

    Many people involved heard it from a friend, or went to another conference and found out that these people are all “GOD”S Loved ONES” and they are SPEAKING HIS TRUTH. They ramble on a few scripture verses and what happens is this ————— the thing that you are “into” is the thing that you will come away w/ and think “OH MAN < this was SO GOOD"

    In my case, I had true healing. NOT FROM THE GROUPS, but from our Lord. AND in search for others that had experienced a TRUE HEALING, I got involved in deception . Word of Faith. But the Lord knew my heart and brought me out of it . I tried so very hard to tell these leaders they were in deception. Being a massage therapist to many of them, I had the opprotunity of a life time to bring them back to the Truth of the Lord, and a few words stuck, most did not, and they most all got worse (the teachers, preachers, evangelists, prophets ) My heart cried for them. My spirit cried for them and friends ridiculed me. Relatives said some pretty bad stuff and I realized that what we , THOSE that truly pick up their cross DAILY and follow the Lord, will come under fire all the time for HIS SAKE. NOT FOR OURS. We have to live through it , but none of this is for us, it is because we love the Lord , hopefully more than self and when HE says it is time to go, then we have a choice.

    I have learned that all I can do is love them and leave them and pray for them. I make sure, or try to , that when I see for sure that they will not seek the truth , not what I say, but what HE SAYS, and they don't want to walk away, or they continue to down me and stick up for them, or continue to go and seek the minstries and not the TRUTH of the LORD, well, then, I make sure, to have as much of a clear heart, and love as I can , and forgive them no matter how much pain I am experiencing. And folks, sometimes it is hard to let go of your own relatives , loving them always, but walking away from their delusions and not becoming involved and drawing the line in the sand and standing w/ the Lord.

    And believe me, they think they are standing w/ the Lord also. So you walk away and pray. Hoping that their eyes will be opened and their hearts and ears will be also, for HIS TRUTH. NOT the groups, the fads, the signs, the wonders,

    And by the way, I never , EVER , saw a true miracle in any of these conferences. Oh, I HEARD OF THEM, but not documented , not blogged by the person after a week or two after the conferences. NEVER EVER heard anything from any of them.

    And yes, Mine is an actual healing from our Lord. I have neurosurgeons reports and an amazing healing that they could not say medicine or medical intervention helped.

    Yet, I saw people w/ gold teeth, gold glitter, oil coming out of their hands and palms and you go to see them again a year or two later, or months later, and that gold somehow disappeared. The tooth is infected and or pulled out.

    I went through a fire tunnel a couple of times and I am not " a RUNNER" I am active and I excercize, but running is not my thing. After that fire tunnel, I ran around the conference room , whooping and hollaring and literally running like I was on fire. I ran around 8 times and jumping over chairs. Hey , I was a little over 50 at that time , jumping over chairs was not something I even did when I was in my 20's.

    I TRULY THOUGHT it was the Lord. That night, diamonds fell from the ceiling tops of the conference rooms , as did gold and silver, oh and new colors, green, for emerald and blue for saphires. Along w/ gemstones. I , at first thought they were real. And it was a sign from God and it was healing, — because they "B. Johnson, Hiedi Baker, P. King< " all said it was.

    When I finally came back down to earth, and lost "the high". (just like a sugar high) Reality stuck me, and I wept. I was depressed , and I turned to my Lord, and searched for HIS TRUTH. And when I found out , I repented, renounced and asked HIM for forgiveness. I was caught up in the make believe atmosphere of the kundalini spirit that I had left from massage therapy and new age, not realizing that it was the same spirit but in Christian lingo and that all these so called "holy people" are practicing witchcraft. WHETHER THEY KNOW IT OR NOT.!!!!!!

    People this is real, people are getting hurt and those we love , many of them will not come out of it , not w/ us trying to "revive them, convence them or send them articles". The only thing that will bring them out is them turning to the Truth of our Lord Jesus Christ, allow HIM to search you at all costs, and to bow down unto HIM w/ honor and humility and dying to flesh , allowing HIM to mold you and bring HIS TRUTH TO YOU.

    I will add to this on the next entry.

  259. Thanks Lee. In the near future I definitely want to use my testimony to help others. Any suggestions.

  260. Ibelieve Sep 28th 2012

    Debylynne and others Thank you for praying. We got word Sue is doing much better today and they took her off the respirator. My wife was able to pray for her and share scriptures with her yesterday.

    Again many thanks to all who prayed, the battle is not totally over so as the Lord leads remember this lady.

    Our God is faithful.

    Concerning divorce I have seen those who are anti-divorce manifest the most vicious spirit and still think their being good Christians.

    Many good posts today.

    I hope this is not the last article of this nature as the body does need to be aware of what is taking place in Christian circles.

    Lord Bless,

  261. Stephen Sep 28th 2012

    I think perhaps much of the confusion is a misunderstanding of the meaning of anoint or anointing. When someone was anointed it was by oil to a position of authority (I learned this listening to a teaching by Curry Blake). We’re likening the anointing with oil to a spiritual experience rather than placing the emphasis on Christ’s position as “the anointed,” and as “joint heirs” our sharing with him in all that is his. This is ours as a gift of grace, received by faith.

    I was trained in a Pentecostal Bible school by a man who had traveled the world and walked in the supernatural Gifts of the Spirit like none other, even raising the dead on seven occasions. He disdained all extreme manifestations or emotional displays, even the raising of hands in worship. Back in his day, when he would go to a church for a revival service he would only accept an invitation if the church agreed to close the prayer room. He found the antics a distraction and wanted none of the credit for the works of the Holy Spirit done during his services to be attributed to the kinds of fanaticism usually found therein. He preached a solid Gospel of Grace with repentance and knew his Bible cover to cover.

    He taught that the nine gifts of the Spirit operated by faith, not frenzy. He knew his business.

    What is happening at Bethel is, in my opinion, a mixture of Holy Spirit and human spirit. Human beings, even before salvation, are fallen spiritual beings and can and do have spiritual experiences. That doesn’t mean such experiences are evil, no more than an unsaved person giving money to the poor. This kind of spiritual experience likely accounts for some of the bizarre manifestations happening at Bethel. Most experts in hypnotism can duplicate many of the same things, like “slain in the spirit.” It is necessarily demonic, just unnecessary and a distraction to what the church should be doing. Also, such things add confusion, attributing to the Holy Spirit that which is only the oddities of the suggestibility of the natural human spirit and mind.

    Many leaders (again just my opinion) in the charismatic movement have failed to discern the difference between the work of the Holy Spirit in the new creation and the peculiar manifestations of the human spirit. It’s like making a deal with the flesh that by making allowances for the bizarre (among some) we’re apt to find ourselves blessed with more of the genuine. This is the kind of experiment happening at Bethel and other places.

    I’ve only been to one service at Bethel and cried for the joy of seeing 33 people baptized in the name of the Lord on stage during worship. I watched as a blind man went into the water and came out seeing! A man sitting a couple of rows in front of me limped in with his wife and two children, having two bad knees, one totally ruined by a botched surgery. Following prayer, he ran around the auditorium at full speed. He knees were created anew.

    Even though I’ve been very well taught and trained, and though I’ve seen such miracles under my hands, I’m hesitant to condemn what is happening at Bethel. I must rejoice for the majority of what I see.

    I’m no expert in spiritual matters, but it seems best to pray that all the leaders in the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements would sharpen their discernment.

    One fruit of the Spirit is “temperance” (KJV) meaning self control. We’re never more in control of ourselves than when submitted to the Holy Spirit. Uncontrollable laughter, barking, jerking, or other such strange things emerge from parts of the human nature which have not yet been conquered by Christ.

  262. Foolhardy Fred Sep 28th 2012

    It would appear that leaders in the charismatic/pentecostal movements are indeed driving the wholesale apostasy worldwide. Evil MUST be condemned wherever it is encountered.

  263. Gary, I am not sure what everyone was praying for but glad to hear your good news.

    Thank you for your comment.

    You said: “Concerning divorce I have seen those who are anti-divorce manifest the most vicious spirit and still think their being good Christians.”

    Gary, would you believe to my shame, I was once one of them? I used to judge others in my heart. I would never speak it out, but I surely thought it.

    I assumed that anyone divorced must just not be as great a Christian as I was. It was in my heart.

    I have a big DD on my forehead now and I can no longer say that. I am amongst the most despised in the fellowship. But, it’s ok because Jesus has told me He has forgiven me, and to ‘go and sin no more’.

    You’ll never find two more PRO marriage people , than my husband and I. Because of our failures, we have become advocates fighting for marriage. EVERY marriage. If you are married today, no matter how you got yourself here……stay in the marriage and let God glorify it. If it was not scriptural like mine, REPENT and admit the truth, but do not divorce your spouse.

  264. Nicole Sep 28th 2012

    What I am adding, is this ——————— most all these folks (these ministries) at one time or another, were not all together. They did not always mix their guest speakers w/ all these people. Some of them, had a couple of “well known speakers” they would move around w/ and include in their conferences.

    NOW though, these SAME people that we are naming PLUS thousands more, (little churches, little groups, little bible studies and prayer groups)

    For instance, Patricia King, she was always what is called far out, but W of F , in reality it is possitive confession w/ a new age swing to it. Now, she is heavily involved in dominionism / NAR.

    Most of these people are either involved w/ or allow in their conferences to speak, they are Joel’s Army, dominionists, Later Day Rain, Oak Initiative, NAR . and they want to infiltrate each and every denomination.


    SO, we are speaking of Bill Johnson as Word of Faith and all these other folks but they are also involved in Dominion Theology and Mysticism (contemplative prayer, roman catholic theology to one degree or another, mainly because of the mystics that they believe , like Madame Gyron etc.etc.etc.)

    So, many of these folks start off in one delusion, then add to that delusion another facet of false religions.

    If anyone that reads these blogs and have been a part of them, and are coming out of them, or the Lord is showing them, I pray that they go unto the Lord, humble themselves, and repent, renounce and ask for forgiveness and allow the Lord to help them heal and sometimes it is a lonely journey for a long while and you don’t think anyone understands, but use that time to truly grow closer to the Lord, Ask HIM to guide you to the correct websites that you are to learn about HIS TRUTH. And discard all the others that you have been involved in. Truly turning away from them. Sometimes we find that we became “addicted” to these ministries and just like any addiction, there is a fall out, a purging, a sort of deliverance between you and the Lord leading you, to break the addiction. A CLEANSING of the soul. A breaking from with in.
    But when you have come out of it, there is a newness and at times you will still hurt and have pain for the others and of self, but the guiding hand of our Lord and Holy SPirit comforting you, and Father, leading you, YOU will feel HIS LOVE AND MERCY and even if you don’t , KNOW THAT HE IS THERE w/ YOU.

    Always cling to HIM. No matter what. Walk in the true faith of the unknown, not the perceived that we were taught. Because as you come out of these places, (churches, groups, ministries etc,etc,) you will have pain and maybe some suffering. Because most all of us, have been taught mixture. Holy Spirit does not teach mixture. We have been dummied down into believing not only things are going to be better for ever and ever, but we have been taught that mixture is fine and that it does not harm us. But the apostles never taught mixture, nor did Jesus.

    And for those that want to argue this, what ever I have written or what others have written IN TRUTH, please go to the Lord, and argue your case w/ HIM. We don’t need to argue truth vs. lies. For truth will always win. And maybe those that don’t see the truth, YET, maybe the Lord will convience them, for most all of us, will not be able to.

    I pray for the lost souls and those that are being deceived and may we one day, truly be able to help them and bring them to our Lord. It is not about us, it is about salvation and the Lord .

    Praise God ALWAYS,

  265. Stephen Sep 28th 2012

    Correction: in the 4th paragraph above I missed adding the word “not” to a sentence. It should read: “It is NOT necessarily demonic, just unnecessary and a distraction to what the church should be doing.”

    Pardon my error please.

  266. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    dewayne – amen, brother. wisdom of God – amen.

    DL- no tomatoes here. i, too, am divorced and remarried. i DID divorce because of my first husband’s getting seduced into sin with a woman who worked for him. we had been married for 22 years, had 6 children and i cannot adequately convey the devastation – no way – there are STILL ripples. i did NOT divorce him immediately – at first, i DID try to ‘make it through’ but after a time i became ‘bitter’ at God who had ‘allowed’ such a thing to happen to us and entered into a time of sin of my own. 2 1/2 years later, i finally did go through with the divorce – i NEVER thought that i would become one of ‘those divorced people’ – ever – it wasn’t in our ‘vocabulary’. to make it MUCH more horrific – my first husband and father of my dear children was killed in a terrible truck accident shortly after we divorced…..he had told me the week before that he HAD genuinely repented to God and sought restoration in his relationship with HIM…..i thank GOD for this with all my heart. there is just too much to this story to place here – i have talked of some of it before – BUT, i struggled with such guilt for not ‘trying harder’ to endure – i find it hard to ‘condemn’ anyone while utterly rejecting the ‘premise’ of divorce – DIVORCE DESTROYS.

    but, you know what?? the Bible does NOT declare that divorce is the ‘unpardonable sin’ – actually, what the LORD said is this,

    Matthew 12
    31 “Therefore I say to you, ANY sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.”

    there IS forgiveness for divorce and remarriage.

    i have recommended him before, but i’ll do so again :-) david servant of http://www.heavensfamily.org has some REALLY good TRULY BIBLICAL teaching concerning divorce and remarriage in his book ‘the disciple making minister’ that you can read online for free – i think you actually need to go to http://www.shepherdserve.org to link up to his books.

    this isn’t our actual ‘topic’ and i DON’T want to start some ‘battle’ here – there is NO SIN TOO GREAT FOR THE LORD TO FORGIVE – what MATTERS, i BELIEVE, is our ‘attitude’ about our sin – to just flippantly say ‘oh, forgive me, LORD’ and go our merry way shows a true LACK of genuine remorse and godly sorrow – i have GRIEVED over the mistakes i know that i have made and i have sought mercy, forgiveness and cleansing and I KNOW that i have received just that…….AND, it is always in my heart to EXTEND that same mercy to others – but, that does NOT truly apply to those who are DECEIVING God’s people and NOT repenting for it…………that’s just how i see it.

  267. Nicole Sep 28th 2012


    I saw that you said, you saw 33 people baptized, and some healings took place.

    Did you ever keep up w/ them??? Did you keep up w/ the people to make sure that their baptism was truly a “baptism” that the healings did not turn to dust after 6 months or a year.??

    I have seen this too, w/ gold teeth and w/ hip joints and hips and even knees being healed.

    I was also a part of Benny Hinn’s ministry and I did see people healed. But I also so the “reversal” of it. In other words, I kept up w/ several people, and after a week to several months, the healing disappeared and people cried out, “SINNER, you just are sinning and you lost your healing”.

    Same thing w/ Bethel. ALL those times at WALMART and getting on the speakers and calling “healing on aisle 6 taking place now”, Those people were healed, many times, but I was once again, able to keep up w/ them, and the healing disappeared. Sometimes overnight.

  268. Thanks deby. I know it’s off topic and please forgive me for derailing it Andrew. Whenever I see the term “adulterous marriage” I feel compelled to correct it.
    Oh and sister, we certainly have a lot in common!!! Oh my my. :)

    Ok everyone back to business, nothing to see here! LOL

  269. Ps I was married 21 years and I waited 2.5 years. Like i SAID..MOVING ON! :)

  270. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    oh, gary, praise the LORD – that IS good news!! will continue to pray for sue and ask the LORD to reveal Himself to her more and more – amen and amen.

    nicole – oh, my, do i understand!! but your experience was even MORESO than anything i have known – thank you for sharing – and about the ‘gold teeth’ and then what happened later….oh, dear LORD, have mercy…..i also completely understand the ‘food analogy’ as we have found as we stepped away from so much stuff we were eating that was hurting us – i simply CANNOT go back to it – makes me literally sick when i do….so very ACCURATE ‘picture’ here.

    DL – just saw your second post – and YES – i was ‘one of those’, too…..i didn’t say it, either, but i looked down on those who had ‘failed’ in this way through divorce. let me say again. i ALSO am anti anti anti divorce. period. there ARE scriptural grounds where the LORD ‘allows’ it but i fear most don’t even care about that – any reason goes – and for those that ARE in terrible situations and believe they MUST leave – my heart hurts for you – i do NOT condemn you…. BUT, the LORD truly ‘humbled’ me through all that happened and showed me i was not so ‘holier than thou’ as i thought – HE also CARED for me and for my children and brought us THROUGH and provided for us….my husband is a gift from the LORD to me – and i mean that. he loves Jesus absolutely, he is patient and kind and SO GOOD to the children and grandchildren – the LORD will make a way……’though we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself’ – amen.

  271. Andrew Sep 28th 2012

    Hmmm – AB – I’m not sure that you would ever catch Bill Johnson doing something like-

    “Claiming that Jesus was not the holy Lamb of God at Calvary”

    He would not say something like that in my view.

    It is the “anointing” that he transfers onto others that is the big problem.

    Bless you!


  272. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    DL – yes and amen – moving on!!!!

    nicole – thankyou for bringing such factual clarity to this – you see this is the ONE thing that people always bring up – well, so and so got healed, i think….or i saw them do these ‘good things’….but what truly happens – are these REAL and enduring healings??

    the LORD said in Matthew 24
    “24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance.”

    but, then again in 2 Thessalonians 2
    “8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.”

  273. Andrew Sep 28th 2012

    My position on divorce and remarriage is that anything that happened BEFORE someone was a true, baptized, Spirit-filled Christian is not to be counted against them. The past is “BURIED” when they become true Christians.

    However I believe that the breakup of a marriage of two real Spirit-filled Christians is a DISASTER – and is to be avoided at all costs.

    The question of adultery does then come up, in my view.

    But every situation is different – and all kinds of things come into it.

    Let the Spirit of God overrule in every case.

    Bless you all,

    Andrew Strom.

  274. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    do you NOT wonder what is meant by the ‘love of the truth so as to be saved’?? the TRUTH can be NOTHING else but the clear Word of God laid out for us to show us the WAY of salvation through the LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED – that many people don’t WANT this ‘kind of salvation’ is evident – they want the ‘bells and whistles’, the ‘quick fix’, the ‘higher high’, and so, they reject the REAL truth of the gospel – an ongoing ‘love relationship’ with the LORD HIMSELF for a ‘quickie’ with those that claim they can ‘give them what they’re looking for’ with NO pain – no struggle – no wrestling with and dying to the flesh. nada.
    as i mentioned WAAAAYYY back, reminds me of the ‘temptation of the LORD’ when satan tried to offer him a ‘quick route’ to be ‘supposed ruler over the kingdoms of this world’ – it would be ‘painless’ – ‘easy’ – you don’t have to die, jesus, just commit adultery with me, bow to me instead of YOUR FATHER, worship me and i’ll give you what you really want.’
    nicole, i think you’ve started something here :-/ but THANK YOU.

  275. amen Deby, just one more thing, then I will quit! Promise!

    Repentance to me is turning from your sin and turning to God.

    In this whole area of marriage and divorce. I said MARRIAGE because when God calls you to repent about something, He’s going to do a complete overhaul in ALL areas. I now even see MARRIAGE in a more Biblical light than I ever did. God’s idea for marriage isn’t take make us ‘happy’. ;)

    He’s made me face and deal with all my failings in that area. My question to you that have trouble with that, do you walk in integrity of heart concerning your own marriages, can you honestly say you walk in a state of repentance towards your spouse, on a daily basis? One sin is not any better than another. Your sin, is just hidden from the world’s eyes. God does see. That’s why I just LOVE where in the Bible Jesus crouches down to write in the sand. i know that we don’t know what He wrote, for sure…but we DO know that whatever He wrote, the people who wanted to condemn the adulterous, just beat a trail out of there. Recently, I saw something I had never saw before in that scripture. John 8:0 says: “At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.” Wow, it says: “the OLDER ONES FIRST..” Wow! Whatever Jesus said, it was apparent that the ones who had lived longer, ‘got it’, Could it be that He wrote down the law, they saw THEIR sin? When we point to people’s sin, we are usually oblivious of or own. Divorce is such an ugly sin. It’s so ‘out there’ and so easy to point to.. but I ask you? With pornography and all that goes on behind closes doors, are there ones even on this forum, right now? That if you were honest with yourselves? You too, were adulterous of heart? I am not saying that the answer is everyone just continue on sinning…”so grace can abound” No! I am saying an you not see that why you point fingers, you may truly be in error yourself?

    Often we Christians want to deal with the aftermath and the train wreck, but I am here to say, that God turned over EVERYTHING in my life and began to show me my TRUE attitudes about things concerning marriage.

    My repentance, dear sisters and brothers, was very complete. Before you think that any of us that are TRUE Christians, got off ‘easy’, think again. God knows how to discipline His very own.

    Repentance to me, is respecting God’s heart and will on this matter. I cannot in good conscience counsel anyone to do what *I* did and think that it will “all turn out good”. I now tell people what I believe the Word of God says about marriage and divorce. I give the WHOLE counsel of God which by the way, I sure which *i’d* gotten from my church!!

    What I believe is a doctrine of devils: 1Tim 4:3a is telling already MARRIED people that in order to be forgiven by God, they must forsake their marriages and divorce their husbands/wives. In my case I was told recently that I needed to pray that God would split up my former husband’s marriage and we would reconcile. This is not taught in scripture anywhere. Surely, if this was how God wanted as a prescription for repentance, then it would be very clear in the Word.

    The word does teach I am not even ALLOWED to return to my former husband. Again, I see God’s absolute wisdom in this.

    I hold fast to these scriptures and principles:

    -there is but one unforgivable sin and it is clearly not divorce or marrying again.
    – 1 John 1:9 says that we confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (I am told by the divorce-to-repent group/cult and yes it is a cult….that FORSAKING the “non” marriage is the only way that God can receive my repentance. In other words, no amount of confessing, begging for mercy, or agreeing that I have sinned, will get God’s favor. I must agree with God that my current husband is not REALLY my husband and divorce him. Where in scripture is this model? Why did Jesus say to the woman at the well that she had FIVE “husbands” if they weren’t husbands? Why does Jesus say if you divorce your spouse and MARRY another (why didn’t he say NON marry) that you commit adultery?

    Here’s the rub..
    Do I believe I committed adultery when I married my second husband? Yep, I do! Yep, I agree with God’s word. I did, and i repent. I care very much now about what God and His word says about divorce and marrying again. If I could go back? I would. It’s a hard concept for me to wrap my head around because I am more on fire and serving God with more fervor with my current husband than I ever did, but I still believe that God’s perfect will was not to divorce. So, with that in mind, if I was able to go back, I would have not done it. But that’s just it. I cannot go back. I have to move forward and I will not sin again by divorcing my HUSBAND.

    There are cults all over the internet now that are telling people to do this. They are causing people to sin all over again and they are MISquoting ONE scripture and making it say what it is not saying. They are adopting a Catholic doctrine that the marriage covenant is undissolved, therefore, the marriage goes on til one dies. But that isn’t Bible. God says; “what God has joined together, let no man put assunder” Meaning that man CAN ‘put assunder” or tear apart. We CAN and DO break our marriage vows and it breaks the family and society and ultimately God’s heart when we do, but we can. That’s why He commanded that we DON’T do it (without the reasons of adultery)

    I honestly believe that telling someone to divorce their spouse is adding to scripture.

    Anyway, getting off my soapbox now. I am expecting a whole BOX of tomatoes NOW!

  276. Stephen Sep 28th 2012


    No I wasn’t able to follow up in these cases and you do bring up a good point. The manifestation of healing in one’s body can also be an oddity of the human spirit, something that works at times, and not at others. Our own natural belief (or fear) has much to do with what happens within our own body. In medicine they call this the placebo effect. Certainly some of what is happening in such meetings is only this, yet just the same other healings are of such magnitude and permanence that they must be attributed to the work of the Spirit.

    Though Hinn belongs within the same category, yet wouldn’t you agree that when it comes to the preaching of the Gospel (repentance from sin and faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ via his death and resurrection) that he has often done so with clarity? Even though I’m not a fan, I must agree with Paul: “What then? only that, every way, whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.” Philippians 1:18

    I came to Christ via the efforts of a group that arose out of the hippies of Haight-Ashbury. We had poor theology, but we knew John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 and 10. When I met Jesus he radically saved me and I’ve loved him every since. I’ve come along a twisted path and 35 years later and still growing and learning. I’ve changed my position on various important topics 100s of times. Even amid our lack of knowledge and gross misunderstandings, the simplicity of the Gospel changed my life.

    I don’t agree with a lot happening in the charismatic movement, yet my love of the Gospel which is present and being preached urges me to go easy on my criticisms. No one possesses all the truth and en mass Christianity is horrifically divided. We can and should be unified around the merits of Christ and his cross and be content though we disagree on many other things, know with certainty that the church is Christ’s to rule and judge. We’ll all stand before him for the trial of our works (1 Corinthians 3:10-15). I’m well acquainted with my own failures and disappointments.

    I appreciate Andrew’s warnings and think his concerns are valid. Forgive the cliche’, I just don’t want to see the baby (the Gospel) thrown out with the bathwater.

  277. Sorry Andrew. I was typing my last post when you’d sent yours. I should have let this alone. You can delete it if you like. :)

  278. DeWayne Sep 28th 2012

    It is true we are not perfect, but imperfect, and this true with the gifts and works by the spiritual man. Yet there is a time not only of need be mature, and put old/childlike ways behind us, there is need become aware of the true will and purpose of God (as He has predetermined)… and do them.

    And how does an individual have any assurance in this, I would contend that within the ‘body’ of the believers there is more authority and power within the corporael body. This body of the church is very different and should not be compared with individual weaknesses and imperfection… as each does their part.

    This is one reason in my opinion why peole need find a true body of Christ, and become in unity and maturity… think about what the Lord has said, what bound and released on earth…

  279. Nicole Sep 28th 2012

    Hey Stephen,

    I hear what you say, and we each have our own sanctification process .

    As far as Hinn, NO, I can not agree w/ you. I learned the very hard way,.

    I did not want to believe that he was into the things that people said he was and I found out he was. It took me a long time to study what he would say, vs. what the actual word of God said. When you place his sermonette, besides the word of God, you find out there is much twisting in what HINN says.

    He uses the kundalini spirit, to mezmerize the people and uses contemplative prayer, (repeating over and over and over and over again, JESUS, or COME JESUS COME, it is a hypnotic technique used in many offices of new age and also Roman Catholic contemplative prayer, which now, Beth Moore and others are very involved in)

    But I would not say any of this, if I heard or saw a video, dvd, or article written by Hinn and others that repented for all they have done that was not of the Lord. Mis leading people and scamming them from using Mike Merdock to others to get the monies for their jets and masions.

    I would be the first to say, HURRAH, this man or woman loves the lord more than self and is willing to place their ministries on the alter of the Lord, giving HIM the ministry BACK and allowing the Lord to do what HE chooses.

    I would love to see these people fall on their knees , crying out not for “give your last dollar and receive the power of healing from the Lord Jesus”,

    Instead I would love them to fall on their knees in repentance and telling folks that they have been wrong, and they are sorry and most of all that they will do anything that the Lord says to do (which I am sure, it would not be , give $1,000 and you can have your name on my jet in a gold plate)

    These are things I saw. Not only that, but HINN, rubs the bones of Kathyrn Kulman , (that is in his book , Good Morning Holy Spirit ) And that is NECROMACY. Until he repents from all these things, he is a false prophet, teacher and evanglist, and it doesn’t matter if he has two good verses or not.

    See, we have all been tainted to believe things that we end up white washing because we think we “don’t know all and therefore we need to walk and not judge. What we are to do, is judge the brother or sister that continues to mislead the other breathren.

    So, I continue to go unto the Lord and allow HIM to show me, and believe me, if He shows me that I am wrong, or not loving enough, I will and do repent, and I do admit it.

    I learned alot in these ministries. I learned that people were getting hurt left and right, people wanted to have their itchy ears and pleasure and rub shoulders w/ the elected or so called elected and I saw false anointings and prophecies for the sake of the main speakers ministries and then I saw the “after effects ” of people being worse off then what they were before , families giving all they had to come and see “THE GREAT” in all these ministries and leaving unhealed.

    I kept up w/ some , and the stories were not good. Were there other TRUTH and GOOD STORIES that there were healings ??? I hope so. But you don’t hear too many of them, and if you do hear , I hope they are giving GOD THE GLORY and JESUS CHRIST the TESTIMONY of HIM to others .

    My experience is,—– most all of the preachers/pastors, don’t want a true healing from somewhere else. They want it from their ministry. I had run ins w/ B. Johnson and others , or shall I say, I was “over looked” because the healing did not glorify the conference speakers .

    The Emergent Church now has so much falseness as does Joel Osteen and T.D. Jakes, and Jenezen Franklin and smiling/laughing Jessie Duplantis, and now they are all saying things that tickle the ears and are possitive and sound good but it is MIXTURE.

    ONCE again, Jesus did not have mixture, nor did the apostles and they spoke harshly of those that did. I don’ see anywhere where Jesus says, take the good, spit out the bad and move on. I don’t see anywhere , where Jesus says, Listen to this guy/gal, don’t use decernment and believe what is good and move on or keep coming back.

    We lack much disernment now adays.

    I was at Cornerstone , John Hagee’s Church for years. Do you know he now has Glen Beck in his pulpit and allows him to speak and give sermons. Glen is mormon. Though they have the Love of Israel in common, GLEN IS MORMON and believes in a different Jesus.

    If one thing I am learning, The Lord is teaching us, for those that are calling out to HIM , He is teaching us that the Road is very Narrow and that mixture is not allowed and it is lonely . We are being taught now adays far better than any other generation before us, because of technolgy, apologetics and also because of the last days we are seeing such deception.

    God bless all, and I pray we all make it to the finishing line.

  280. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    DL – something FUNNY – well, sort of!!! i have referred to that scripture many times – even on here in earlier threads – the part about the ‘older going away first’ – that has ALWAYS struck me – because, oh, yes, by the mercy of GOD, if we live ‘long enough’ we DO come into the place where if we are TRULY His and filled with His Spirit we absolutely KNOW our own frailty and therefore are NOT so quick to condemn others that fail. amen!!

    just keeping things in perspective here, though. personal failure in sin is NOT the same as preaching a false gospel and moving in false signs and wonders – and are NOT dealt with in the same way, according to the Word of God.

    sometimes, i have actually heard others express their opinion that people shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to sin and get ‘away with it’…..all i can tell you is that IF you are a true child of GOD – there is no ‘getting away with it’ – you SUFFER over what you have done and would UNDO it if you could – sometimes you DESPERATELY wish that above all else, you could change your actions……

    i KNOW the forgiveness of the LORD, but, honestly, when i think of seeing HIM face to face, i wish above all else that i had not failed HIM. i have to ACCEPT His forgiveness – but, i still feel sorrow over the past. but i also feel great JOY, because there IS forgiveness with the LORD.

  281. amen Deby. LOL We must be “cut outta the same cloth” as they say. We’ll probably find out where the same age. LOL

  282. Nicole Sep 28th 2012

    By the way,

    The first time I read only part of a book club review of good wonderful Christians , we were studying Heaven on Earth, and we were all loving Jesus and wanting healing and HIS TRUTH.

    The book starts out wonderful. I mean, here is a young couple that is about to get married and all they want is ‘the poor’ the homeless’ the destitude” to attend their wedding. They fed them, they clothed them w/ sweaters, and coats and they gave these poor people their gifts.

    I MEAN , I was saying HOORAH , look , there are really people out there that love the Lord and are doing HIS WILL.

    I am sorry, but I lost many friends to Bill Johnson and all the others. Could I say hi to any of them and give a hug?? YES I could, but I would also turn and weep for their souls still being lost and caught up in deception.

    I don’t say any of this to be mean, or ill spirited. But it is time for truth and too many are swallowing the kool aid still and maybe, just maybe, someone can read some of these posts and truly go unto the Lord and HE WILL SET THEM FREE. THis has nothing to do w/ us. We must go unto the LORD.

    Soaking is very very much a “thing ” in these groups, IHOP , to others, and of coarse that too, is new age, just like chrystals and pitching forks and dowels, etc.etc.etc.etc.. YOU CAN NOT MIX THEM w/ Christianity. / THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. That is witchcraft and anyone that even suggests it or says they do it, it is still witchcraft.

  283. Nicole, what do THEY say “soaking” is? Thankfully, that’s not something that happens in our church. BUT…I have heard so many talk about it. I do know that it’s satanic in source, but what actually IS it?

  284. Nicole Sep 28th 2012


    I will say this, like I said before, I was involved in all these groups for a short time. I believed they were all of the Lord. It was a learning experience for me, but much more than that, It was a growing experience.

    I originally came years ago, from the Greek Church, so all my “journeys” have been learning experiences and part of my sanctification process. What I have learned is great, and Great is my Lord. and HIS MERCIES and LOVE is FOREVER.

    That we can agree with. But I was stuck on milk for years and years and it was time to leave the bottle . Sometimes I yearn for the bottle but know that HE is not in the bottle. Learning is hard, truth, is harder, and finding the balance to have learning, truth and love is even harder. And none of it can be done w/o the Lord. We can not do it on our own, the flesh has to go. (and boy is that a tough one at times!!!)

  285. Nicole Sep 28th 2012

    Boy, do I have an experience. Stay tuned. It amazes me, how the Lord took this naive woman and taught her HIS TRUTHS.

    But right now, I need to make a very healthy salad for dinner and I will write after the kitchen is cleaned up.

    I will explain what soaking is and how it is a lure into contemplative prayer and new age meditation.

    to all,

  286. Graham P Sep 28th 2012

    The local Anglian church which my wife and I attended had its leadership engrossed in visualisation after being entertained by the TB experience. It began after a visit from Rt Rev David Pytches the former Vicar of St Andrew’s in Chorleywood who now has his own ministry called New Wine and Soul Survivor. St Andrew’s church was drastically impacted by John Wimber who first visited them at Pentecost in 1981. Pytches books include “Still carrying the Fire” and two controversial books called Some Said It Thundered: A Personal Encounter with the Kansas City Prophets (1991) and Come Holy Spirit: Learning How to Minister in Power (with John Wimber) (1994).
    I dared to challenge my vicar and the leadership about the occult practice of visualisation and the false Kansas City Prophets.
    Members of this group were Bill Hamon, Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, Bob Jones, Mike Bickle, James Goll, John Paul Jackson, and Lou Engle. Cain had participated in the Voice of Healing Revival initiated by William Branham during the 1950s. The Kansas City Prophets continue to be active in ministry throughout North America and are often seen and heard as guest speakers at charismatic christian conferences and meetings.
    The vicar told me that God was doing something new which was prophesied time and time again at church meetings. He could not accommodate what I said and the evidence given. He criticised my research and dismissed my concerns. His get out clause was that “I do not submit to church authority” and this being his conclusion, I was told to leave his church as I was not compatible with their teachings. The vicar and the leadership believed them and not me because they were accredited leaders in the christian church and that I had no credentials and not ordained for religious duties.
    That happened some time ago and todate nothing has changed regarding those people mentioned who remain deceiving christians with occult practices, false teachings and prophecies, encouraging people to chase signs and wonders, and preaching another gospel.
    The missing word which is lacking has already been commented on and discussed on this web site. What is it? REPENTANCE!
    I was told by the church authority to embrace these people as brothers in Christ. The question to brethren reading my comments is this – how can I embrace such folk as christians? For surley they are wolves in sheeps’ clothing and are counterfeit. They have become celebrities by using christianity as a tool for themselves. Godly people? I don’t think so!
    What do brethren say about this because they sow seeds of confusion, and practice unbiblical theology of another spirit?
    Love in the Lord Jesus.

  287. Stephen Sep 28th 2012


    Do you know of anyone involved in the healing ministry who is doing so without the extraneous, or is the whole charismatic/pentecostal movement involved?

  288. Thanks Nicole. I feel like I am on the edge of my chair! LOL
    I have spent way too much time on this site today, but I am just so hungry for true fellowship and it’s so refreshing to ‘speak’ to other believers that are sincere!

    REPENTANCE. Wow! I am just amazed how God gave me that word, at least 10 years ago, now. It’s what I look for, always. If it’s not there? I know that something is not right.
    We must be in a continuous state of repentance before the Lord.

    I am not saying salvation is by works and we must earn it….no, rather I believe it is the EVIDENCE that we are truly born again….we WANT to stay right with Him!

  289. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    DL – i told my husband that it gets a little ‘weird’ – your posts, i mean lol!! so much of it is like reading my OWN thoughts, experiences and beliefs and it just gives me this ‘funny’ feeling :-)

  290. LOL I haven’t told my husband yet. He’s not home from work. I know he’ll look up over his glasses and say “WHAT did you SAY NOW?” LOL

    I went back read a lot of the articles from the past. I was blown away. You wrote about your past and that season of where you were broken. (those 4 years, about 15 years ago?) I got little chills.

    “He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

    During this dark, dark period everything I had ever known about God was challenged. I became a believer at 19…it wasn’t until this season of God breaking me…no CRUSHING me…that I REALLY understood. Funny thing is, what I REALLY understand is just how much I really don’t know.
    I often say; “God has to teach some people stuff”, in MY case? “I had to UNLEARN a lot of stuff”.

    I am not done yet, but I honestly like Paul, “know Christ and Him crucified” and that’s about IT! Well, a few others things too, I guess. LOL

  291. Deby: I must be tired. I never got “little chills”. LOL LOL! I got chills…reading that…because it was 2000-01 that my breaking started.

  292. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    DL – that is EXACTLY the type of thing my husband says to me all the time – he’ll say ‘what kind of trouble did you start NOW??” oh, it is GOOD to laugh, as well, as we discuss these very serious matters, is it not??!!

    amen – waiting to hear more from nicole…..i am finding what she is sharing VERY enlightening…..

  293. I haven’t read everything you Guys (Debylynne & DL) have been sharing but I just wanted to encourage you both that the Lord knows that your hearts are after Him…

    He sees your hearts and knows that you are seeking after Him…

    He will bless this and you will be blessed…

    I think – generally speaking – with respect to seeking “experiences” or “emotional experiences” or “supernatural experiences” that this is an issue which hankers to the flesh (i.e. the old self, our fallen human nature)…

    We are to seek the Lord…

    Seek His Face continually…

    The Lord hasn’t promised our flesh emotional fulfilment…

    He has promised us “the fellowship of sharing in His sufferings”…

    The “party” is not where the Holy Spirit is…

    He is in the crushing…

    The removal of the flesh from us…

    This is His Business…

    The likeness of Christ is only produced in us through the crushing…

    Any experience we genuinely have with the Lord will change us – it will make us irreparably like Him or more like Him in a certain area…

    Whether it is His Power or His Holiness or His Love or His Greatness which He overwhelms or impacts us with – it leaves an irreparable mark on us…

    We are not the same as we used to be…

    The more and the closer we get to the Lord we see that He sees right through us…

    He pierces us…

    His Eyes pierce us…

    His Eyes are like a flame of fire…

    He is a Consuming Fire…

    To truly come into His Presence and look upon His Face (Psalm 27) is a recipe for transformation into His Image…

    If we are truly coming and He meets us there – we cannot remain unchanged…

    I don’t see any likeness between this and the “party” which appears to be being described in the meetings which appear to be going on at present…

    This “party” is not Revival…

    Love in the Lord,


  294. Wow, Andrew. Thank you. :) i REALLY needed that tonight!

    Love your analogy of the party – comparison to truly coming in the presence of God.
    I know this one, Andrew.

    Like I said a hundred posts back, if God strips away all the gold and glitter, and there’s no money, or fame, or notoriety left, just a man (or woman) and their Bible, then you’ll see what they are all about.

  295. Nicole Sep 28th 2012

    First, let me tell you about our “healthy ” salad. I say this because after the very fattening breakfast, a healthy salad is all my body wanted! But, I did pass up the pastry lines and displays.

    The salad was “universal” hee hee. No new age, just from all parts of the countries.

    Healthy greens that were organic from different parts of California.
    Avocados from Mexico , Walnuts from Cal. Apples, Yummy, from NEW ZEALAND, (FUJI) probably last seasons, but still good!!! Tasty.!

    (we are waiting for the minnesota honeycrisps apples that are due out now. )

    Pecans from Texas, Squash from the garden of someones!!! (organic) and broccoli from probably Cal.

    Coconut Oil from the islands and olive oil from Greece.

    And a roasted chicken w/ lemon herb seasoning. All chopped up finely. w/ parsley and added dark red kidney beans w/ just 5 seasoned small croutons.!

    O.K> so now you know how we normally eat. I say this because of the analogy and how we mix it all together and it tastes really good, going down, but if any of it is not “washed” real good, it can be gritty and if it can hold bacteria.

    Same w/ many mixtures in the churches. It sounds good going down, but when you get home and you see the sermon again, or if you bought the cd that they encourage you to buy, you can reference it and see if the Pastor/leader is speaking actually God’s word or twisted the words to mean what the Pastor wanted it to mean.

    I like everything washed real well !!!!!! And then checking it out.!

    I just thought I would try a little humor w/ allot of truth in it.




    I am still a licensed massage therapist (more wise than I used to be, Praise the Lord ,) and I will give you that testimony of how I came out of all of this if another time,) Because I was involved in too many “healing ways” that were not of the Lord. So, what does the Lord do ———-He allows me to Learn — Learn HIS HEART, LEARN HIS WAYS, and LEARN HIS TRUTH. And it was not my way, it was HIS, and I was crying and on my knees much when I found out the truths in all the different realms from New Age to Christian ways.

    So, the next one will be long, so I will start a new blog but this truly is important because it is once again becoming more a focus in more groups especially since Paula White has started it and Beth Moore is preaching it.

    Next blog being written.

  296. Graham P,

    You mention Pytches’ ’91 version of Some Said it Thundered. You ought to compare the original ’90 version to the ’91 and note the differences. In this lengthy article I compare the two with respect to the Bob Jones / KCF so-called “drought prophecy” noting the inconsistencies between the info in the original transcriptions from KCF tapes by Ernie Gruen and Pytches’ versions with his most recent one changed in light of a ‘revised’ version by Wimber/Deere (in the “A Drought Evolves” section at the end). There’s a lot of material here quoting from other Wimber sources, one Bickle, others’ both pro and con, and especially the inclusion of a July 1, 1990 letter from Gruen to Wimber in which he ‘exonerates’ Paul Cain:


  297. Hi

    Just to say I think all this is so unfriutful, why dont you take your concerns to Bill Johnson, all this dose is devide , them and us the fundimentists did this for years now they paying the price, come on guys what did Jesus say who ever thou the first stone. Lets get on with the work he has for us saving the lost not figfhting amoust our seleves.

    Cheers Kevin

  298. Sharon Sep 28th 2012

    To those few who fail to understand why Andrew points out some of the false teaching within certain churches, here’s a specific warning Jesus gave:

    Mat 7:21-23: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
    ‘Many will say to Me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?”
    ‘And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.” ‘ ”

    This is important! Who really wants to stand before the Lord and be told to depart from Him?? I can’t imagine the horror of discovering you will be spending an eternity in the lake of fire, totally separated from the Lord and in continual torment!!

    The gospel of Christ is about having a righteous relationship with the Father. Jesus tells Thomas in John 14:6-7:

    “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
    ‘If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.’ ”

    I fully believe in the gifts of the Spirit and operate in the ones the Lord has given to me. I wish this was true for all Christians in the world today. In case we forget however, this is all of 1 Corinthians, chapter 13:

    v. 1 “If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
    v. 2 “If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
    v. 3 “And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
    v. 4 “Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
    v. 5 “does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
    v. 6 “does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
    v. 7 “bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things
    v. 8 “Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
    v. 9 “For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
    v. 10 “but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
    v. 11 “When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
    v. 12 “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
    v. 13 “But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

    If Christians become obsessed with angels, gold dust, laughing, obtaining the latest “anointing,” aren’t they guilty of boasting and being arrogant, as stated in verse 4 above? We are called to seek the Creator, not the creation. We are called to preach the gospel, not preach the latest, coolest “sign.” All of this is written very clearly in the Bible. Humans are seeking their own glory when they stray off into the latest trend. Let’s not be guilty of rebellion against the Lord, but rather be led by His Spirit (not the doctrines of men) into worshiping and serving Him alone.

  299. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    sharon, amen.

    kevin…..dear brother, you are completely taking scripture OUT of context – YES – that has to do with PERSONAL SIN….NOT deception – NOT ‘wolves in sheeps clothing’ – NOT ‘whosoever causes one of these little ones who believes on ME to stumble, it would be better for him that he had a millstone tied around his neck and was cast into the depths of the sea’!!!!!

    PLEASE, brethren, STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELVES APPROVED – there are scriptures that deal with ‘personal’ issues between brethren and PERSONAL sins and then there are scriptures that ADDRESS FALSE PROPHETS AND FALSE TEACHERS AND THOSE THAT DECEIVE and these are NOT one and the same………


  300. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    and THANK YOU, brother andrew j horton, thank you for the encouragement.

  301. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    thank you craig c for the link – bookmarking it!

  302. hi Kevin, some of us believe that false spirits have invaded ‘church’ and they masquerade as the Holy Spirit. So a warning to all people who are involved must be done. Jesus is not against warning people that they need to stop doing something. There are too many people involved to just have a private talk with just one leader.

  303. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    sorry for all the posts – that makes me think, FOOLHARDY FRED, do YOU have a blog???

  304. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    kevin, i just read jeffm’s post to you and he was much more gracious than i – please forgive me – i am sure you are absolutely sincere in what you are thinking and saying…..but, as jeff pointed out – WARNING is the RIGHT thing to do when there is deception
    bless you, brother

  305. In the Presence of God there are no lies…

    There are no demons strong enough to remain in the Presence of God…

    The shackles and bondages which they have employed over our minds are broken as we come empty into the Presence of God…

    In the Presence of God we see ourselves as we truly are…

    He brings conviction to us of our sin…

    All our righteousness is as filthy rags…

    What appeared white before no longer does…

    When that happens it is a solemn moment…

    It is not a cause for laughter…

    As this experience passes we definitely do rejoice that He has come close and changed us and see after this has occured there is laughter – the joy of the Lord is our strength – the joy comes after the repentance – being undone before God – we do not come brazenly into the Presence of God flaunting our “acceptability” no matter who we are…

    Yes, we are “Accepted in the Beloved” but practically there will always be issues which the Lord could choose to address in any encounter with Him – sometimes He may choose not to address certain issues because there are others on His Mind but we can never come flippantly into the Presence of God presuming upon His Grace and kind of having a cavalier attitude where we feel we can “tell Him what to do” or “fit Him into our schedule” – this is not Reverence for God – we must act at His Leading not the other way round…

    If we see independence in one who claims to be serving the Lord or that they happily “take over” when He is meant to be leading a meeting or “shut Him down” when He is really wanting to say something in a meeting then in that instance we learn alot about how well that person really knows the Lord…

    Cos someone who really knows the Lord even when that direction that the meeting takes is “against them”, i.e. brings up some sin in their lives, if they know the Lord (and have surrendered to being undone by Him no matter how He chooses to achieve this) they will stand and “take it” (if it is coming from the Lord) as they know in their own personal time with the Lord what it is to stand and “take” His rebukes and not try and “shut Him down” but let Him speak, let Him rebuke and let Him change no matter how painful that may be…

    If we don’t see that “crushed” spirit in the ones who would “lead” us then we really do need to ask if they really deeply do know the Lord and are seeking His Face (in this unconditional,”whatever it takes”, surrendered sort of way)…

    If we are seeking His Face we will know what it is to be undone in the Presence of God (whether personally or corporately) and know what it is to repent deeply for the things which He convicts us of (I see this coming and I see the results being powerful)…

    Come Lord Jesus and take Your Place…

    Love in the Lord,


  306. Lets pray for these people! This is what I feel our response is to be, based on everything our Lord has taught us! Lets pray for fellow Christians, worldwide, that we draw closer to Jesus, stay there, and see His heart for the people, and walk in love towards them. People are easily deceived; they do not know the scriptures.Or know God. For those in Christian leadership, we pray for them to know the truths, be set free by our Lord, and repent. We are not their Judge; the Lord sees into their heart and we don’t; He is their Judge. With deep appreciation, I can cast that burden upon Him, as He has said to do.!!
    It is time for the Harvest; the workers are few. May we hear the call to study to show ourselves approved in the Word of God, and each be ready to preach the gospel while it is still Day. May we follow our Saviour in obedience, and follow Him! He will guide us! We don’t have time to be unfocused; this is what Satan wants. We have learned already to avoid that “unfocused” path. We love the Lord with all our heart and mind and strength and most neighbors as ourselves…Lord, help us to feel your love for them when we don’t! America needs us! We are here “for such a time as this” as Esther said. The Lord has us here, and may we move forward in His Grace and mercies, as He will delight in showing us how! Jesus IS LORD!

  307. Nicole Sep 28th 2012


    Well I can tell you also what it IS NOT.

    We were at a Christmas Party, given by “The Apostle” and his wife. They had started other home churches and they considered themselves “APOSTLES”.

    They were /are now in their late 60’s late 70’s and still consider themselves Apostles and now Evangelists. And they are mixed up more than they were before w/ P. King and all the others , going from church home to church home “anointing” those that “they feel” the Lord is saying “ANOINT”.

    It was one Christmas Party at their home. All sorts of WONDERFUL DEAR Church members and lovily folks from all over the city. There must have been close to 200 people in and out and having dinner and small talk and prophecying over folks and yes, having wonderful hymn like Christmas songs and singing and fellowshipping . ALL having the Lord in common. (as it seemed!!!)

    So, into the kitchen my husband and I go, and we were going after those yummy homemade tamales. (mexican food)

    In the kitchen, I over heard a group of women talking about Soaking. And how they just praise the Lord and HEAR from the Lord and just turn their hearts out unto the Lord. In the same paragraph they were talking about their juccuzi and how just soaking and praising was so much of their day when they got together.

    Here I am , a licensed massage therapist, that took hydrotherapy and I am thinking , “YOU can’t “soak” in a juccuzzi at high temp. all day even if you are Praising the Lord”. I mean you will get dehydrated.

    So, me, being me, I appoached a bunch of women that I never had met before and I was going to set them straight on the woes of “soaking” too long in the juccuzi even thought their hearts where on fire for the Lord, it was still too risky and they could become dehydrated.——

    Well, it was as if the whole party stoppped and you could hear a pin drop and then laughter. I was the last one to figure out what they were all laughing about until one kind lady took me to the side and said what “soaking ” is.

    And yes, they did have a juccuzzi but she only stayed in it for about 15 min. and did pray during that time.

    So, they invited me to come to “their soaking party”

    I was excited because I “had met new friends” People that loved the Lord, people that loved Prophetic words, People that loved to share HIS HYMNS and Testimonies. and even knew scripture.!!!!!! Man, I had hit a jack pot — as I thought. only to find out that in six weeks, I was in the wrong group, w/ a bunch of demonic , ill advised women, that loved self and new wine , more than the Lord.

    I say this, still having a heart for all of them, but having left them all behind and I am talking about a large number of women in this group. This was a “woman’s deal” but then my husband and I got involved for a couple of “couples” soakings and then we just kinda got led out of it (thankfully)

    The first “soaking” I went to was a luncheon. It was the first of the year and like all good Christians that listened to TBN or Jenezen Franklin , we fasted 21 days. I mean wasn’t that the thing to do, as a Good Christian, seeking the Lord. ?? (that too can be an idol or addiction , and I repented and sought the Lord for HIS TRUTH) because it can become a “dieting tool”. Not a SEEKING HIS FACE and no matter what, ALLOW HIM to Lead you tool)

    So, all these wonderful Christian women were eating on this banquet like table that everyone brought something. (pot luck dinner/lunch) I was fasting on lemon/water/ maple syrup and cayanne ) and I was not tempted w/ the good smells.

    Everyone got to know each other better and we were all suppose to give a testimony. I heard stuff like :::

    I lost 10 lbs. in 3 weeks to my cold was healed and my husband is seeking the Lord.

    It came to my turn and I gave my testimony of my healing and it was as if, they had never truly known someone that spoke of a true healing , and seen the live person. BUT what came next was like a very stand offish type of relationship.

    But I was strong and I rolled w/ the punches. NEXT, we all sat down and so many were versed in the bible.

    I mean literally. THere was PRAISING and POWERFUL words being spoken and one lady would finish and another would pick up like finishing the sentence and it was just rolling w/ what I thought was truly THE POWER OF THE LORD.

    I mean, all these women, professed, the love of the Lord, the cruxifiction , the reserrection and dying , all the things that we are said “TEST THE SPIRITS” well I thought I had tested them, they all said the right things and they all were in church loving the Lord . (this was before we left the churches)

    So, here we were, sitting on sofas, recliners, lying on the floor, having kinda a pillow talk/ pillow retreat of several hours just “soaking up the Lord” as MUSIC PLAYED. MUSIC that was , CHRISTIAN and POWERFUL. I mean we had drums to just angelic harps and strings. And little did I know that JoAnne McFatter and others like her, John Belt, Alberto Rivera and others were into “soaking music for the souls”.

    This went on for a couple of hours . No talking, just listening to the music and speaking in tongues. Some read their bibles, others just sat and worshipped HIM.


    Then someone would reply and then someone would all of a sudden say, “THE LORD JUST SPOKE TO ME AND TOLD ME TO LOOK UP THIS VERSE AND READ IT”

    Awe, I knew that one, it had to be “WORDS OF KNOWLEDGE”. wow, this must really be powerful lord. How awesome that you allowed me, to find these women and to come to such a wonderful fellowship time w/ them.!!!!!!!!!!!!! (that was truly my thinking and oh how wrong i was!)

    The following two weeks, I was extremely sick w/ allergies. Which doesn’t normally bother me but cedar was heavy and oh how I missed going but looking back, I realized it was for my safety. AND THAT WAS OF THE LORD.

    the 4th. week. Again i went, this time it was at a different house and close by , in my neighborhood. Little did I know that “this group of fine Christian women” had decided that it was going to be a NONE TALKING enviroment and during the 3 hours of PRAISE, WORSHIP and SOAKING ,we could not talk to one another. Just read the bible and listen to the music and at the end we could “discuss” what visions we had seen.

    Oh, before we started this, the weeks that I was sick, I had vollenteered our home , as small as it is, to have all these women come and have soaking at our home. By then I had bought the music (bad choice of spending God’s money!!!) so everyone was coming on week 6 to our home. I HAD COMMITTED. even though what was to happen next, I HAD COMMITTED. and boy, my husband did get into my face about this one!!! But we allowed the Lord to take over and it ended well and all.

    BUT here I am w/ all these non verbal women and all they were doing was speaking in tongues, no real conversation. Some where walking around, others, rocking back and forth, others sprawled on the ground and then ALL OF A SUDDEN, around hour 2, things started changing. the ATMOSPHERE CHANGED. and it was not for the good.

    GROWN WOMEN , the youngest was a pregnant married woman that just came out of Bill Johnson’s school of healing and her husband was living w/ their mom in this house. I barely knew anything about B. Johnson. I knew several people that had been to his school and R.Joyner ‘s prophetic school and those were popping up all over the place and it “was the thing to do”.

    Next , what happened. I was in the den area/room and me and this other woman, (who by the way, her husband was truly a good Prophetic , he was not a well known one but he truly had God’s words and grace when he spoke) she was there and she was into Chuck Pierce and his school of Prophetic words and worship.

    I say this because they all went down the fast tube of deceit and they got mixed up w/ greed, fortune, rubbing shoulders w/ mixture and ego and pride. Oh they all made the big time, but it cost them THUS FAR their SALVATION and I don’t say that easily. I pray that they turn around but in order to do it, it will cost them what they have gained. (which is stardom)

    Anyway, back to what was happening. This woman started crying and like two school children trying not to get caught, we were writing notes back and forth, and I would ask her, “do you see any of this in the bible, is this biblical? She would be crying and saying I think this is demonic but I am not sure, I am scared. ”

    I got bold and went into the next room and what I saw was demonic.

    Grown women, on the floor, luring other women to get on the floor, but they were acting out animal sounds. Sheep baa’ baa baa ing. One was an indian, doing a war dance, w/ a drum, another was laying on the floor and two women were sitting on her back side and I thought again, “this is going to hurt her back and spinal column” Lord, what do I do???

    This went on for almost 40 minutes and I was crying out to the Lord. One of the women that I knew sort a well, was baa baaing, the other was peeing like a male dog, and another was then standing on the living room chair and beating the furniture . Others were beating like a spiritual war of indians about to come down upon the troops.

    What had happened was the non verbal meditation opened the spiritual realm of demonic. This I know because I have seen it in massage and new age. but never experienced it in a Christian Realm. I mean these people knew CHRIST!!!! or knew HIS NAME and BIBLE.!!!

    That afternoon, I saw demons fly as I guess the Lord allowed me to be a servant and to set some of them free. And crying and humbling of the Lord came afterward. BUT , it did not last. Matter of fact, those women did not show up at my house when we took a truely remarkable time in the Lord in a dignified manner and gave glory and honor TO HIM. I had communion for all the women , we read scripture and repented.

    That night, my husband told me, NO MORE SOAKING and I obeyed.

    SInce then, we have been in a couple of churches and also several groups , in the past that had soaking and it was always the same. MEDITATE ON THESE VERSES and then ALLOW THE LORD TO SPEAK TO YOU and then SHARE W/ US WHAT HE HAS TOLD YOU.

    Beth Moore , recently was telling her huge speaking tour that Jesus spoke to her and told her that the gold coin in the mouth of the fish that Peter found, was 3 inches big.

    Now what relevance does that have ??? And yet, people were awed and thought she was speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ and she was really something else as they got her autograph and bought her books.

    I could write more and I will because these are serious topics and they are steming from new age and ministries like Bill Johnson.

    To answer you Stephen, At this point and time, I do not know of one person that truely has the gift of healing– at least not in the groups that we are accoustomed to knowing. Joseph Prince is the “new kid ” on the block and he has much mixture and stuff past down from K. Hagin and Copeland and others. It is all mixture and if you don’t listen closely it can catch you off guard.

    My answer is to STAY CLOSE UNTO THE LORD and ALLOW HIS HOLY SPIRIT to teach you, and check it all out and go to more than one site to find out what they are really like. And apologetics, might not be “the coolest easiest things /writings to read” They might sound like “hunters” but I am telling you, they can sure help when you don’ t know .Then allow the Lord to lead you. Purging all else and repenting , that is the type of emptying yourself you need. The heart/ the flesh, not the mind.

    Soaking is contemplative prayer to music and emptying your mind. It is a form of yoga / hypnotic technique of loosing self into never never land.

    Problem is , it is new age, / mysticism/ witchcraft and can open doors to demons.

  308. Craig CrossWise
    Thanks for your comments.
    I have no argument with the fact That Jesus is the great I AM and changes not; Is indeed the same yesterday today and forever.
    I shall try and keep this short.

    Aside fro the B.R. type theatricals. My main contention with the Pentecostal movement (of which i am apart ) is that throughout scripture God emphasised that His “pattern” was sacrosanct!
    Those that offered strange fire were destroyed.
    Solomon’s temple. . ..
    Noah’s ark..
    Elijah restored the alter they had altered and guess what the heavenly fire fell and vindicated God’s Word.
    Ezekiel 43…… verses 9/12 in particular.
    Jesus “I am the door …. narrow is the gate… straight the path…. unless thine eye is single .”one eyed”

    Jesus time on earth? A perfect prototype of a new creation – born from above, of the heavenly, and not as Adam – earthly. God said “This is my beloved son” Jesus said “Follow me”
    Jesus life set such pattern for us to follow:- We shall follow it in every stage of His life before and after his resurrection, right to His final ascent into heaven.
    There is of course one vital exception He was born without sin and remained so making Him able to pay the prdemands of sin for us we must repent and die to the old life and embrace the new. When He enters our being (we become the Temple) it is according to the pattern he laid down a supernatural baptism.
    I know there are many sincere folk who are offended at this however to be loving and kind to them, we must not deviate, like the unfaithful steward who said “take your bill ……for 100% write out 50%”
    I note; the entry of Glory into the old Temple was a supernatural event as was Jesus baptism. As was the day the Church was born, at Pentecost, as was the accepted practice for first century Church converts. Revelation 3 tell us this Church left their first love.
    Many Christians, like Israel have altered the alter. and also like them, have conjured up an alternative e.g. the the subject of this thread
    There is one vital exception He was born without sin and remained so we though must repent and die to the old life
    PSI have no idea what the “Manifest Sons of God doctrine” is from what you write it is just more wrestling with scripture..
    Pr Michael

  309. Foolhardy Fred Sep 28th 2012

    The Bible clearly teaches that a little leaven is sufficiently destructive to override the good. Whatever these false teachers may do that might be perceived as good is completely overridden by the false, the occultic, the new age, the hybrid attachments of pagan religions they actively or passively permit to dilute the Word of God.
    The necromacy that Bill Johnson has promoted at Bethel Bible College is sufficient alone to disqualify him as a “brother in Christ,” let alne the plethora of other false and downright dangerous teachings he and Bethel church have actively promoted and encouraged.

    Scripturally then he must be named and excluded or avoided for causing division in the Body of Christ by the introduction of these false teachings.

    The passages about going to a “brother” about persoanl grievances really only apply to fellow christians and personal matters and have NO relevance whatsoever to these public promulgations of false and dangerous teachings and religious practices.

    Benny Hinn has, for example, repeatedly made extravagant claims which have not only NOT been able to be substantiated but have actually been proven to be false. I refer in particular to his claim about the healing of a little blind boy and the establishment of a trust fund for donors to contribute to for the benefit of this little boy. Donors claimed to have given significant amounts but the boy and his family saw none of it. The blindness was never actually healed either.

    Of what benefit is this fraudulent nonsense to the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

    If we all stayed faithful to HIS Word consistently this Great Apostasy would never have been allowed to spread like spiritual syphilis in the manner in which it has spread.

    I urge all genuine bible believing christians to seek God for the courage to be uncopromising in your stand for TRUTH – the truth of the Word of God which alne has power to save.

  310. Martha Nessman Sep 28th 2012

    I can’t believe the amount of judgement and hate that this site attracts.

    JUDGEMENT is so sad and silly and based on HATE. Next time you decide to criticize another, just stop, breathe, and ask yourself what Jesus would do in your shoes? Yes, ask that right now within yourself.
    Would he cast hate upon another like many of you are doing right now? NO, never. Feel his love and have the confidence to walk with him. I know you can do it. This hate-site does nothing for Jesus. This could be so positive.

    Create conversation about your favorite Bible verses and sing aloud. Now that’s getting somewhere. Stop with all the blackness–even this site reflects black.

  311. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    this is ‘basically’ what i was into….only mostly alone….and THAT is why i did not for a couple of years even go into my ‘place of prayer’ because i was AFRAID i might ‘slip back’ into this stuff and give it some sort of hold over me again. NOT animal noises or actions – it was mostly ‘words’ and ‘revelations’ and just CRAVING this ‘spiritual high’ that i would get from the experience – absolutely CAUGHT UP in it…..i would dance and stumble around and laugh and cry and write write write these ‘words/revelations’ from the ‘Lord’……..it is ADDICTIVE.
    i started out simply spending time in prayer and intercession but i was just getting ‘hooked up with’ elijah list, as well as IHOP and all their ‘speakers’ and ‘teachers’ and ‘prophets’ and musicians, etc. and everything – the whole ‘atmosphere’ in what i was doing began to drastically change and i thought it was GOD and my ‘church’ said it was GOD and it was NOT God.

    thank you, nicole, for sharing.

  312. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    martha nessman
    Jesus would have taken a whip cord and driven them out of HIS temple because they are leading HIS people astray……

    and THAT is a gracious as i can be on such a statement.

    there are VICTIMS here – people are being destroyed by this foolishness and such suggestions are made that we should just all get together and sing ‘cum by yah’……………..this is a WAR for the souls of men and women……

  313. Nicole
    .”……….At this point and time, I do not know of one person that truely has the gift of healing……….”
    Hope this is encouraging for you
    I see it that rathe rthe person who receives the healing is the recipient of the gift!.
    I have been privileged to pray for many folk who needed healing and most have been, have remained so. praise God but i do not possessor “the gift” I am able to heal no one My Father however is well able
    I have at times struggled with my own health and at other times it has been so easy so simple! I remind myself Jesus could only heal a few folk in Nazareth.- because of their unbelief forget my troubles and remind myself of all His benefits – seek The Healer rather than the healing.
    There is also the scripture in Isaiah that “by His stripes we were healed!” A done deal 4500 or so prior!!
    I am suspicious of those who promote themselves or others as healers!
    the Lord bless you Nicole
    Pr Michael

  314. Nicole
    .”……….At this point and time, I do not know of one person that truely has the gift of healing……….”

    I hope this is encouraging for you
    I see it that rather the person who receives the healing is the recipient of the gift!.
    I have been privileged to pray for many folk who needed healing and most have been, have remained so. praise God but i do not possessor “the gift” I am able to heal no one My Father however is well able Nicole
    .”……….At this point and time, I do not know of one person that truely has the gift of healing……….”
    Hope this is encouraging for you
    I see it that rather the person who receives the healing is the recipient of the gift!.
    I have been privileged to pray for many folk who needed healing and most have been, have remained so. praise God but i do not profess to have “the gift” I am able to heal no one, my Father however is well able
    I have at times struggled with my own health and at other times it has been so easy so simple! I remind myself Jesus could only heal a few folk in Nazareth.- because of their unbelief forget my troubles and remind myself of all His benefits – seek The Healer rather than the healing.
    There is also the scripture in Isaiah that “by His stripes we were healed!” A done deal 4500 or so prior!!
    I am suspicious of those who promote themselves or others as healers!
    The Lord bless you Nicole
    Pr Michael

  315. Wow Nicole. Wow. I don’t really have words. But this is text, so I gotta! lol

    You know though? As “new” as this is to me? It really isn’t new, at all. The devil doesn’t really have anything new, and there is nothing that isn’t just recycled over and over again.

    Back in the day, we didn’t call it ‘soaking’, etc, but I remember our prayer meetings in the Charismatic movement, going off the rails and getting truly weird. VERY much like you describe!

    In fact, I am reminded of a few tonight that I need to renounce. It’s funny how reading your stuff brought me right back to a couple incidences in my own life.

    People would get together and ‘seek God’ but it turned out to be no more than soothsaying as they tried to pry a word (from God) outta ya. I used to move in the prophetic and I can remember that in the silences people would be HOPING God had a word from you. I used to feel a real pressure to ‘perform’ if you know what I mean?

    I believe now, it was the same spirit operating. It’s just gotten so much more room to function…….sigh

    Nicole, I really need you to counsel us concerning massage. I have had a bad feeling about it for some time now, but I didn’t realize that perhaps it’s been the Lord. My massage therapist is a Christian and we spend almost all the time talking about Jesus. However, I am very open to hearing truth, if I should cut that off, PLEASE tell me.

    Thanks Nicole telling us your story. I just love your honesty and how you write just like you’d be sitting chatting with us! ((hugs))

  316. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    FOOLHARDY FRED – you say MUCH that makes absolute SENSE in the LORD……sometimes i must admit that i feel that your ‘absoluteness’ doesn’t leave a lot of room for ‘human fraility’ such as it is……did you see where i asked you if you had a blog – i just thought you might since you do have MUCH to say that i can see has been clearly ‘thought through’??

  317. Niki – thanks for sharing as you have :-)

    For others who are unaware of ‘soaking’ – here are a couple of links that share further on both soaking music and prayer.

    The sad thing is that the authors, investigators, discerners, who share the false in these practises – are, like Andrew, abused for their warnings.




    Martha – I ask this of you – is it ‘judgement and hate’ or is it the love of Lord Jesus, that compels us to warn, (and sometimes pull) others from the hell fire of false teaching and apostasy..?

    In His love, and in His service,

  318. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    DL – ditto!! well, i don’t mean about the massage therapist cause i don’t have one but all of the ‘above’. yep. amen.

  319. Wow deby! I hadn’t read your post before I read and responded to Nicole. You too! Wow………
    Ok, NOW I am telling my husband! LOL

  320. This false anointing has gone viral because it is a spiritual virus. Because it is a virus it can be traced back to one or two original sources just in the same way entemoligists can trace back a biological virus that has reached epidemic proportions. All spiritual viruses are transferable false annointings and are transferred by two primary means: the laying on of hands and by believing in the accompanying false doctrines. All false annointings come through spirits. All counterfeit spirits carry both a false set of doctrines and an accompanying power or annointing- both of which are virally transferred by hands and by words.
    So has anyone bothered to trace the source of this false anointing that Bill Johnson and so many others are carrying and spreading.
    If you do any even cursory research into the origins of this spiritual virus it will always come down through two streams: The Vineyard which recieved it’s “strange and bizzare manifestations to a single visits which John Wimber simply refers to a young man who visited their church and when this “young man” visited by Wimbers own testimony all pandamonium broke lose in Johns little fellowship !
    Who was this ” young man” and why does John Wimber simply refer to him this way? This ” young man” was Lonnie Frisbee and the reason John Wimber doesn’t like to refer to his name is because Lonnie Frisbee was an active homosexual like Paul Cain and who died of aids he contracted via his homosexuality! Why did John allow Lonnie Frisbee to release the “annointing that birthed the Vineyard movement? Because LonnienFrisbee was Chuch Smiths right hand man. Here is Lonnie Frisbees testimony. he says he was trying all manner of occult and new age stuff and one day he added to all his new age experimentation taking LSD (acid). In his own words he said, ” It was LSD THAT LED ME TO JESUS. I llaid down that day hi on LSD and I got up a Christian and the POWER OF GOD WAS UPON ME FROM THAT MOMENT.”
    Did Lonnie Frisbee have a false Jesus- a false annointing. Well that’s THE REST OF THE STORY! Frisbee transferred his LSD “Jesus” annointing to the Vineyard. What does Randy Clark, John Arnott , Bill Johnson and Co all have in common besides Rodney Howard Brown and this false annointing that brings weirdsville and false doctrine with it? Answer John Wimber and where did the vineyard get the virus? Lonnie Frisbee’s occult and LSD crazed “conversion” to “Jesus”.,

    Where does the other stream trace back to through? Also Randy Clark but another source than Lonnie Frisbee. Thie other stream is through Rodney Howard Brown who by his own testimony said, ” I demanded that God give me power or give me death. And that is when I recieved the laughter and animal annointing. Then it was released whenBenny Hinn laid hands on me and told me to send out the drunkenness.” Benny Hinn is the other source of the virus- which also contaminated and subverted the Argentine Revival via Cladio Friedzden.
    For what it’s worth.

  321. Deby as much as we are amazed that we have a lot in common, I honestly think that there are MANY like us.

    I know we’re staying off the divorce subject, and I AM NOT excusing my behavour, but there are reasons why I was very vulnerable to divorce.

    I was driven completely by emotion. I believe this is an Eve thing. My husband at the time was not a strong covering for our family, in fact, he was very weak. He didn’t lead the family and I did the wrong thing, and I did what a lot of women do wrong, they take up that place.

    The problem is, I believe it opens the door to demon activity. I cannot draw a straight line between what I did, and how I walked out the door, but I can’t help believe that all this stuff set me up for it.

    I remember JUST before leaving my husband, we had been attending a Charismatic church. Patrica Cocking (she later changed her name to King) was just new on the scene at the time. I don’t know if I actually let her lay hands on me… *gasp* but I do know I was right into this stuff……though, I had a lot of reservations, too. I was a bit of a contradiction. I wanted truth, and knew a lot of this was ‘fringe’ stuff and a little ‘way out there’ but at the same time.. I was HUNGRY HUNGRY HUNGRY for more of God.

    I see sooooo clearly now, the set up. That’s why I can have so much compassion for others. We can’t just write them ALL off as being evil. Some of them honestly believe they are doing right. GOD, Himself will draw them away. I believe that to my very core. He did for me, and I don’t believe that I was special.

    Anyway, kind of just talking out loud here. I have so many thoughts running through my head. Mostly about deliverance. I have been going back through Derek Prince teachings but to be honest with you, even DELIVERANCE stuff got weird, in the circles that I hung out in. What to trust!!

  322. Pr Michael,

    Thanks for your comments. I’m not going to specifically deny the legitimacy of someone else’s “supernatural baptism”; however, I do wish to point out that there is an occult version of same. Now, I’m not saying you are in agreement with what I’m about to say, but, I did want to point out that there are those in Pentecostalism (but especially hyper-charismatic circles) who make the claim either explicitly or implicitly that if one doesn’t have this 2nd ‘blessing’, one is, in essence, ‘less than’ the others who do; and, moreover, one cannot have any of the gifts without this 2nd ‘blessing’.

    I can say this, there’s no way I could have done much of the writing I’ve done without the supernatural assistance of the Holy Spirit: 1) using the most recent article I cited above as but one example, I could write a lengthy blog post on the amazing ways in which I “found” material and was able to analyze it (most especially, “finding” the tape of Cain’s “prophecy” about Jack Deere and putting it together with the Gruen document); 2) having the ability to read and understand occult material (such as Alice Bailey) without being unduly influenced by same. I took this for granted until I had others tell me that they just couldn’t stomach reading some of this stuff except in very limited dosages. In addition, most were amazed to find that there’s actually potentially occult meaning behind Bob Jones’ words (which most consider just the nonsensical babblings of a disturbed individual). I admit that five years ago this was all, as they say, “Greek to me”.

    As to your assertion that, in essence, Jesus is our model, this is, of course, not untrue; however, it depends how far one takes this. In the last part of the very lengthy series comparing Bill Johnson’s ‘Jesus’ to the New Age one (which, by necessity, presupposes having read some of the earlier material), I show the New Age/occult version of ‘Jesus as pattern’ and compare this to Johnson (and, by extension, others in hyper-charismaticism). I think it’s quite eye opening:


  323. Here is the story as told by John Wimebrs wife Carol:
    On Mother’s Day of 1981 we had a watershed experience that launched us into what today is called, “Power Evangelism.” At this time, John [Wimber] invited a young man who had been attending our church to preach one Sunday evening. By now we had grown to over 700 participants. The young man shared his testimony, which was beautiful and stirring; then asked for all the people under the age of 25 to come forward. None of us had a clue as to what was going to happen. When they got to the front, the speaker said, “For years now, the Holy Spirit has been grieved by the church, but He’s getting over it. Come, Holy Spirit.” And He came. Most of the young people had grown up around our home. We had four children between the ages of 15-21. We knew the young people well. One fellow, Tim, started bouncing. His arms flung out and he fell over, but one of his hands accidentally hit a mike stand and he took it down with him. He was tangled up in the cord with the mike next to his mouth. The he began speaking in tongues, so the sound went throughout the gymnasium. We had never considered ourselves Charismatics, and certainly had never placed emphasis on the gift of tongues. We had seen a few people tremble and fall over before, and we had seen many healings. But, this was different. The majority of the young people were shaking and falling over. At one point it looked like a battlefield scene, bodies everywhere, people weeping, wailing, speaking in tongues. And Tim in the middle of it all, babbling into the microphone. There was much shouting and loud behavior!

  324. Martha: These are the words of Jesus: “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

    Said it context it was still LOVE!

    hink of it this way… you’re heading into the path of a train……..you are looking back and me and smiling, unaware of the danger just ahead. Do I smile back sweetly to you? Or do I yell, wave, scream, run and try to pull you back? All of the above! That’s what is happening spiritually here, MARTHA! It IS love!


    Sorry I mean; “said IN context” and “looking back AT me” “Think” of it this way..I must be tired this evening! :)

  326. FIrst
    Andrew and all.
    I will in future type in MS word, then copy and paste to avoid these errors. We had a power failure, my browser reopened with the pre-post and then system froze up and had to reboot, again I made the same mistake, browser had saved the prepost page and my post was not listed, the result above is not good, reflects badly on me! I must be the only clown who has done this? And I earn my living as a computer tech.?????
    Craig Crosswise
    That is where we differ, as I believe that the “second blessing” is as unscriptural as the “sinner’s prayer”

    Pr Michael

  327. Nicole Sep 28th 2012


    It is late right now and I have been writing allot today. I must come to a close for the night.

    I will though tell you , I am still a licensed massage therapist, and I still work on people when I can.

    The Lord has gifted me and I do not take it lightly. But I am not the same as I was years ago, and the “gift” that is from HIM, is not hocus pocus and yet I was so so involved in Reiki and Healing Touch, Universal Healing and all of that stuff in years past, because it was a way to get relicensed and it is a credited required coarse now adays.

    I was delivered and set free. And I too, as did my husband , got delivered through Derek Prince Ministries, BUT i can tell you, delieverance minstries have gone off the wall and if someone needs to be delivered I would suggest first, to simply repent, renounce and all the Lord to deliever you . I can not tell you how often I used the “program of D. Prince” and turned it into a works ministry trying to get the demons out. Oh, I have stories about that too!

    But truly, seeking the Lord w/ all your heart and HE knowing your heart, can also set you free.

    I no longer, at this point and time, have an office. And when I do massage, I pray w/ the client. I ask questions if they have ever had other people massage them, if they have ever had reiki or healing done on them, I even ask them if they listen and like Oprah and Dr. Oz. or Rick Warren.

    If they do, that is a caution light for me and I ask them if we can pray together before I start massaging them. There are certain things I ask and do , and most of all , I try very hard to allow the Holy Spirit to lead .

    So that is a fairly short answer to what I have to say. Of coarse I could write books and chit chat all night, but morning comes the same time each day and I gotta get up.

    If this website does not close , I will be on it again tomorrow./ under this topic.

    I think many people have many stories and I think it is time that we all search our own hearts and let go of what ever it is that we might have “picked up” from other groups, places, or churches.

    I am not saying that they are all evil or started that way. I am sure, most of them, started innocently some time or another and got scooped into it.

    Mine was healing. – Satan knew that I was searching for those that wanted and loved the Lord and got healed by the Lord. It led me into every healing ministry I could find and what I found out was not always of the Lord.

    I was in Charles and Francis Hunter’s group for a long time, and went around the circuit and circus. !!!!!

    Many of these ministries flat out lie about their own health issues. That I can say and that is all I will say at this time.

    God bless each of you and may we truly truly , seek HIM and ALL HE IS !!!!

    I will write tomorrow.

  328. thank you Nicole. You’ve helped a lot! Sweet dreams sister!

  329. Pr Michael,

    I’m confused. I thought you were advocating the “supernatural baptism” as a ‘2nd blessing’. Can you clarify? Also, I am not a believer in a ‘2nd blessing’ which is usually called the “baptism of/in the Holy Spirit”.

  330. We are witnessing the largest revival of Mysticism in history right now. It’s not going away and it’s not going to die out. There are two root causes to this global revival of mysticism:
    1.The seeking of and the replacing of subjective spiritual experiences above the objective realities authoritatively revealed in the Bible. And
    2. The abandonment of the biblical gospel that faith in the death of Jesus alone is what secures and maintains a love relationship with God and also secures every blessing from God by faith alone from first to last (Romans 1:16-17)
    “For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion because they loved not the truth but choose wickedness instead.”

  331. Thank you Barry and Craig, my husband and I are looking up and researching the info you’re both posting, right now.

    Barry, I had a thought. Under your #2 reason – If I am understanding you correctly.. you are alluding to a works gospel?

    By that definition, then an over emphasis on repentance and trying harder to get HOLY, could also become something that would actually draw us away from God? No??

    The reason I bring this up is that for the past little while I seem to “hear” God saying to me to be careful I am not falling back into a works mentality,

  332. Barry,

    I do believe you are correct that this revival of mysticism is not going to die out. As I quote in one of my articles, here are two statements, the first by Alice A. Bailey (whose works form the basis of much of the New Age/New Spirituality) and Matthew Fox, respectively:

    T]he church movement, like all else, is but a temporary expedient and serves but as a transient resting place for the evolving life. Eventually, there will appear the Church Universal, and its definite outlines will appear towards the close of this [20th] century…This Church will be nurtured into activity by the Christ [ED: actually Satan/antichrist] and His disciples when the outpouring of the Christ principle, the true second Coming, has been accomplished. No date for the advent do I set, but the time will not be long. [1919]

    Without mysticism there will be no “deep ecumenism,” no unleashing of the power of wisdom from all the world’s religious traditions…The promise of ecumenism, the coming together of religions has been thwarted because world religions have not been relating at the level of mysticism… [1988]

    I do believe Bailey is referring to the false parousia (coming), the false 2nd coming [2 Thess 2:9].

  333. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    DL – amen on the whole ‘deliverance’ ministry. i BELIEVE in the ‘deliverance ministry’ of the LORD JESUS CHRIST. it got REALLLLLY strange in our ‘circles’ back in the day…..

    craig – do you mean you do not believe in the ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit?

    whoa, barry! do you mean that the young man had repented of his homosexuality but died of aids anyhow or had he NOT repented?? sorry, i got confused.

    nicole, good night and thank you!

  334. debylynne,

    You wrote, “do you mean you do not believe in the ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit?” I don’t necessarily deny someone else’s experience; but, I’ve not had this experience – I even prayed for this years ago as my former friend tried to get me into hyper-charismaticism – but, nope, never happened. I don’t think it’s evident in Scripture (he says ducking) – and, yes, I’ve seen the Scripture references.

    Now, note that I use the term “hyper-charismaticism” as opposed to merely “charismaticsm”; I do not deny the gifts as being for today, i.e. I’m not a cessationist. I just don’t believe one has to have this ‘2nd blessing’ in order to have the Holy Spirit use the individual as a vessel for any of the spiritual gifts as enumerated in 1 Cor 12.

  335. Craig, why do you say “you have not had this experience”?
    You do realize that the ‘sign’ or confirmation that one has has indeed had this experience is not necessarily speaking with other tongues…it is a boldness to speak the truth.
    I’d say my friend, based on this, you would definitely qualify as receiving “power” from and baptised in and with, the Holy Spirit. Now, don’t you agree?

  336. Craig CrossWise
    Pleas I don’t not wish to be disrespectful, just state my case.
    I went to “church” – an orthodox mainstream one for twenty nine years, I read the Bible, till my late teens I was a teetotaler, later I began to drink, l attended to church, prayed also I cursed, swore and was not a very nice person I had been “baptized” ( sprinkled) as a baby I had been “confirmed” by a man in fancy clothes who mumbled mumbo jumbo, and said “daily increase more and more in the Holy Ghost!” Nothing happened I did not change one iota although I wanted too desperately Yet I was accepted as a Christian !!!
    When i turned twenty nine I was privileged to be invited to a Pentecostal revival meeting i saw my young atheist brother get baptized, saw/heard him receive the Holy Spirit as they did at Pentecost. Who was I to argue against God who gave him the same gift?
    I was then baptized the Bible way. Healed of Asthma. Sinusitis, my filthy mouth. Filled with the Holy Ghost an power I was praying in tongues as I came out of the water, that is with me fresh and pure as it was in June the sixth 1965.
    The Church I had been attending now rejected me!
    I see it as God is no respecter of persons, there is no shadow of turning with Him, and we are in our out. For Him or against Him
    The Church I had attended now rejected me! I can not be a special case in the eyes of God! Or He is found a liar! And I am still a reprobate!
    Before that day I was not saved! Secretly ashamedly I knew it then, since then I can openly acknowledge it. I guess you have heard it all before?

    Pr Michael

  337. “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

    there ya go! “Power to be my witness” THAT is the sign that we are filled. (I also speak in tongues) However, it’s the power to be a witness for Christ. Also, I do NOT believe it is the second filing.. or whatever.. I believe the words says; BE ye filled……..as in continually.
    There’s a lot of us out there Craig that may think a lot closer to what you believe, than you think. No need to duck quite yet. LOL

  338. DL,

    I say what I said specifically because in Pentecostal/Charismatic/hyper-charismatic circles usually one is not deemed to have had this ‘baptism in/of the Holy Spirit’ without the evidence of tongues.

    But, I have to say I agree with what you wrote.

  339. Pr Michael,

    I don’t find what you said as disrespectful at all. I’m confident that I’m “spirit-filled” even if it may not match your definition/experience.

  340. David Marsh Sep 28th 2012

    Dear Nicole and all,
    Your testimonies are amazing. We came out of the AOG church over ten years ago and through our ‘soaker services’ saw a little bit of what you guys are relating to us here. Our younger children at the time, called them ‘soaker circuses’ and that really bothered me.
    It bothered me because, deep down, I knew they weren’t being irreverent – they were just being truthful.
    We left the the historical church scene about 2 years later.
    In hindsight, the whole thing was driven by a hunger for the Lord. But at the same time the soaker activities never sat right within our hearts and we stayed on the fringes as spectaters during those services. I saw eyes rolling back in people’s heads, jerking, rolling and uncontrollable laughter.
    There was no discernment being made. There was no action based on the word of God. No one knew how to enter into the things of the Spirit – according to the Word of God. That was the main problem as I saw it.

    The Word tells us how to enter into the things of the Spirit. And with the Lord’s help, He will show us the way.

    God bless you all

    David Marsh

  341. Craig,
    My husband was raised in a denomination that taught against the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the “Pentecostal” way, for over 30 years! He was like you, he had, had prayer but experienced no evidence.

    When he understood that the MAIN evidence was the power to become His witness and to live out his walk, he stopped focusing on the tongues aspect and he started to say that “yes, he asked, so yes, God has given it to him.” The scripture: “if we being evil know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more will our Heavenly Father, give the Holy Spirit to them that ask”, comes to mind.

    I realize that I am making it sound real simplistic and it’s just not that way for lots of people. No matter WHAT us Pentecostal/Charismatics tell ya :) Just don’t tick that off your list as though it’s a done deal. Keep open and asking, but also thankful for the evidence that the Holy Spirit IS giving you power to be a witness for Him.

  342. David Marsh Sep 28th 2012

    Dear all,

    P.S. An interesting article on the Bride of Christ.


    P.S. JeffM – I did read a while ago a great explanation on Mat 24:28 but I havn’t been able to find it. i will post it when i find it again.

    David Marsh

  343. So no one is confused about my stand here
    There are indeed blessings and healings and experiences before the Holy Ghost infilling, However I believe John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, Paul et al, in that historical order, have designated it as the all important rebirth of John 3 it can indeed be the First blessing, If however in our pre Christian (anointed) life (like me above) it is the second third fourth …….. 10x “in our life it is still the foremost indispensable blessing!

    “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, how can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    Jesus answered, Verily, verily; I say unto thee, except a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again. The wind (Spirit) bloweth (breaths) where it listeth ( wills ), and thou hearest the sound (voice) thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    Nicodemus answered and said unto him, how can these things be?
    Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We ( does the “We” speak of Jesus His Father and the Holy Ghost or maybe all those who are born of the Spirit?) speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?”
    In essence “Unless I am born again, of water and the Spirit,I can not see, or enter, the Kingdom of God”
    Pr Michael

  344. DL,

    I was not raised in any sort of denomination or Christian tradition at all. I’m just past the 1/2 century mark and a Christian for a dozen years. The advantage to my background is that I don’t have any sort of baggage from past ‘conditioning’. I’m not concerned by denominational differences even though there’s not a single denomination I’ve found with which I can find total agreement in comparing their beliefs to the Scriptures. I’ve been very independent most of my life, and, as such, I’m not too bothered if I don’t ‘fit in’ with the rest whether it’s within Christendom or in the secular world.

    Having said all that, I’m not interested in the gift of tongues. I’m quite happy with the gifts, both personal and spiritual, I’ve already been given. If the Lord wishes to provide more, then great, if not, then great.

  345. Craig,
    We were posting at the same time, or I wouldn’t have posted that last post. I see that you state that you believe that you are Spirit-filled.

    It does concern me though that you aren’t interested in the gift of tongues. I am not going to try to convince you with any human persuasion (as if!) LOL You’ve obviously decided what you believe.
    I am just going to say that I truly would love for every, single believer on this planet to speak with GENUINE God, given tongues. The reason is it is a wonderful gift. I am going to pray that God gives it to you. :)

  346. Pr Michael,

    Having just studied this particular passage at length, my stance is that the the “water” symbolically refers to cleansing of past sins, i.e. repentance; the “Spirit” is the Holy Spirit indwelling – being ‘born again’ / born from above / born anew by the Spirit. The first part was symbolized by John’s baptism, the second was the Holy Spirit indwelling at Pentecost. None can come to faith without the Father drawing them which leads to repentance and the ‘born from above’ experience resulting in the Holy Spirit’s indwelling. Of course, repentance is an ongoing part of the Chrisian walk.

  347. Nicole
    Thank you for your comment that align strongly with a lot of my thinking and many others I am sure.

    I do hope you write again, your comment “delieverance minstries have gone off the wall” struck a chord with me. I have for a long time been concerned about teaching and practise in this area. So much control I feel. I jsut have this feeling that it ought to be so much simpler than so many ministries teach. Perhaps I am trying to over simplify, but as Derek Prince often said that he does not want to try to improve on the ministry of Jesus Christ. I do wish I could find a site that teaches deliverance and is able to counter many of the teachings that are so common place

    The thing about the ministry of Jesus is that whether he spoke or acted it was clear to those who saw Him that he “acted with authority.” This for me is key. Whether its healing, prophetic or deliverance ministry, walking in Gods presence, listening and hearing to what He says is so important. So many people are so eager to seek God and as you have said Satan tempts them into areas and teaching which are not of God. I myself for example have no idea how I would react if I was leading a ministry that had large number of followers. How easy it must be to allow pride to enter and to feel the need to “expand” on what scripture says. I just have this gnawing feeling that the Gospel really is much simpler than many make out. Does not make it easier, but Gods message is simple, putting Him first, seeing ourselves as we are repentance, loving with all your heart etc and then allowing Him to work through us in whatever situation we find ourselves in

  348. Where, indeed, is the LIKE button for SO many of these posts !!!

    DL said:
    Thanks Nicole. I feel like I am on the edge of my chair! LOL I have spent way too much time on this site today, but I am just so hungry for true fellowship and it’s so refreshing to ‘speak’ to other believers that are sincere!

    You’ve spoken a mouthful in that one statement! I too have been starved for someone who actually believes and upholds the Word and isn’t being sucked into this movement. I live in LA and am surrounded with the followers of these false teachings. Not only did I just find “someone” today, but I’ve found many, and it is indeed so refreshing!!

    THANK YOU Andrew for allowing so many comments on this subject.

    Now, regarding:
    Healings at Walmart “Healing on Aisle 6” ….. !!!!!!
    Running 8 laps around the auditorium and jumping chairs … after age 50 !!!!! :-D
    Soaking experiences in your home with baa-ing and ….

    Oh my, oh my.

    Nicole: I believe that your being “over-looked” was not only the preachers’ pride in not wanting your healing told because it did not glorify the current speaker, but I truly believe it was the Lord keeping you from being swept further into these ministries. Imagine if they did display you with any of your healings / testimonies on stage and wanted you to continue speaking. I think because of pride many who start speaking have a hard time coming “out” of false circles even if they do start to see error. Thoughts such as, “How can I now loose all my followers?” or “How can I admit to the world that I was wrong?” can be thoughts that satan can put into some preachers minds. I think you, and others like you, should praise God for keeping you safe and making sure that you were “over-looked” by false ministers.

    I’ll say it again, ANG, DebyLynne and now Nicole I really think you need to start a Blog … How about one blog, with all the testimonies?

    I am currently very good friends with a gal who is very into soaking … along with all the other deceptions of these false teachers. I am currently praying about when to speak personally to her. I need wisdom, scriptures, and the “boldness to speak as I ought”. Your prayers would be appreciated, and any scriptures to present to her as well.

    Looking forward to reading more tomorrow…good night everyone!

    In case this thread gets shut soon, may I post my email for any who want to do group emails to keep the encouragements going?

  349. If the Holy Ghost indeed dwells in, has come upon, has baptized, or has filled us, re-birthed us? Then how much of Him have we received? are not these one and the same?
    Where does God say there are degrees of in-filling, receiving?
    Can we be half full or half empty! The Instant I spoke in tongues I knew that i was born again, saved, sanctified, washed, sealed, accepted, filled,. and like Lot’s wife i must not look back!
    Jesus said after the Holy Ghost had come we would know. Him. I knew of Him, but did not know Him till His Spirit filled me when He baptized me with His Glory and The Holy Spirit came in making my poor worthless body His Temple.
    All my experience before that time was that yes there were times when in my sincerity I had drawn near to Him and He as promised, had drawn near to me. Those times came and went However after I was baptized, spoke in tongues for the first time, His Presence is permanent.
    Is this not the testimony of all those who have been baptized in the Spirit, and have continued to walk in the Spirit!
    I repeat God is no respecter of persons.
    Pr Michael

  350. I have functioned on the Intercessor teams of both Bentley and Johnson so I have had a little personal contact. I agree, both are ‘unusual’ people, but…
    I am a little concerned with the extreme comments in, and in response to, Strom’s article.
    However one insightful mail-response wrote: ‘God will use anyone He likes’. Here in Melbourne at a Johnson-connected church I got healed within a few minutes of a Dyslexia condition I had known about for forty years. Just disappeared when I had previously ‘thought’ it was MY thorn-in-my-side so I had never had prayer for that ever before.
    So, I would be wary of entering into criticism that may appear too judgmental. God can and does use anyone, even donkeys in the OT, to speak and accomplish His will. Maligning others can end up being uncharitable judgment.
    The overly-emotive language used by Strom does not offer a valuable insight in my opinion.
    P. S. I ‘sense’ or have some sight of angels, both good and bad. It sometimes helps in prayer for others as I have seen many hundreds of people healed. That includes crippled people standing up, throwing away their crutches and dancing, but that’s not quite in the Bible, as such, either?
    But it was God who can use any ‘foolish’ person he likes including me!

  351. Andrew Sep 28th 2012

    BARRY, my friend – I agree with much that you say, but regarding the “Toronto Blessing” and the ‘anointing’ of Bentley and Johnson – it clearly all came from Rodney Howard Browne as the originating “source”. All traces back to him. (1993).

    The Lonnie Frisbee stuff sounds completely different to me.

    Bless you!


  352. Foolhardy Fred Sep 28th 2012

    False teaching and false leaders cannot produce good fruit regardless of how you might try to twist the truth.

  353. Andrew Sep 28th 2012

    And regarding “tongues”, I myself generally support the classic Pentecostal position of tongues being an “initial evidence” of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I certainly encourage all to expect this gift from God when we are praying for people.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  354. Ibelieve Sep 28th 2012

    The tares will grow with the wheat and they both look very similar.

    I think false teachers are able to show some type of fruit and this is where many are led astray.

    Jesus told us this was going to happen.

    Matthew 24:24
    For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

    John 4:48
    Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.”

    When God does great signs and wonders it is generally accompanied by the “Fear of God”.

    Acts 2:43
    Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.

    Does anyone realize that these exact manifestations today are taking place in Hinduism as well?

  355. @Ps. Steve.
    Well said. I like what you said.

  356. Foolhardy Fred Sep 28th 2012

    Yes Ibelieve I do in fact it is these pagan religions that have overrun biblical christianity in these last days.

    Thank you for your comment I believe.
    debylynne I also appreciate your comments as well. You asked if I have a blog site and the answer is no I do not.

    May God continue to bless all who are committed to Him and His Word.

  357. Ibelieve Sep 28th 2012

    He senses angels? Or has some sight of angels good and bad?

    This sounds like something out of catholism.

    Clearly some on this board have opened themselves up to deceiving spirits. These so called angels are giving them a different gospel to follow.

    No where in the NT do we see Jesus or the Apostles healing people because good and bad angels showed up. It was because they had the faith to believe God as stated by Jesus many times in the gospels.

  358. Steve C Sep 28th 2012

    I am now in my sixties having been born again, spirit filled, and baptised in the Holy Ghost. Yes, I am a pentecostal and believe in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. I do contend the Faith and stand firm in Christ Jesus even to the extent being margalised by the secular world, and those wolves in sheeps clothing to preach another gospel plus the likes of Benny Hinn and those who control the christian tv channels by suspect charismatics and the WoF movement.
    I have a Godly spiritual anger to those charlatans who have brought disrepute to the Christian Church. And far by improving, the Word of God declares that it is going to get worse. Just read the Book of Revelation which John describes on what will happen in the Last Days. And yes, these are the End Times and there will be a falling away from Truth and not this world wide revival which is being portrayed by false teachers and prophets to extract money from gullible christians.
    Some one posted this comment on this web site:-
    “I can’t believe the amount of judgement and hate that this site attracts.”
    I am not making my comments using any form of judgement and neither there is hatred in my heart. I am trying to explain that what is going on with unbiblical practices have nothing to do with the Holy Ghost. Believers have already explained this to include Andrew Strom.
    First of all. I do thank brother Andrew for allowing me to share my comments and do thank every believer for their encouraging comments. May this continue while we can share Truth and distinguish from error and what pertains to be false.
    When discerning believers give warning to the many wolves that are masquerading as sheep, the Christian Church, if they are following Jesus, take heed. But alas this has not been so. For that is why it has reached the Crossroads and continues to plod on entertaining spiritual phenomenon which is counterfeit, damaging, and will lead many to another gospel which has become apparent. For those who say otherwise are falling into deception and do not recognise biblical doctrine.
    Secondly, in my younger days as one following Christ, I belonged to Richmond Road Evangelical Church which was sited in Romford, Essex, UK. I was part of the youth, and yes, we went out preaching the Gospel message to both young and old outside of church. Went into coffee bars, pubs, Romford’s market and shopping places, etc.
    Romford once had its yearly carnival so our church decorated a lorry and float using a christian message. We armed ourselves with Jesus stickers and gospel tracts. It was a very effective from of witness and people knew that we were christians by our love and not religion.
    The older members of our church began to fall out with one another over a number of teachings that had entered the Christian Church. Again, some members and part of the leadership were saying that “God is doing something new” a common phrase now used today by charismatics and Word of Faith. The youth of the church became divided too.
    An invited preacher was asked to take the two main services one Sunday. He did not know what was going on in this evangelical church, especially the occurring split. However, the Holy Ghost came upon him when preaching the sermon and during this he boldly prophesied about what was Truth and what was error and how error had crept into the church. He warned that due to this if their was no repentance and laying the situation before the Lord, Almighty God would shut the church down.
    Those causing division and entertaining error were judged and those who were following Christ were sent out of the church to go elswhere.
    I am sorry to have to say that that church no longer exists. No one would recognise that a church building once existed on the land. It has now a block of flates where once the church stood.
    And what happened to the members of the church who wanted to do this “new thing?” They became sucked into the deception while 95% of the youth now are no longer walking with the Lord Jesus Christ – they have fallen away.
    Please take heed and be warned.
    Blessings in the Lord

  359. Foolhardy Fred Sep 28th 2012

    Typical of the completely overt and arrogant apostasy that is going on a former Assemblies of God Pastor informed me that he did “not care about bible doctrine (he) only cared about his “anointing.”

    A former leader of the same denomination told me that not only would he honour the Pope as a great man of God he would do whatever was necessary to achieve money and other material rewards for himself and his denomination. He was very proud of his ability to “compromise pragmatically” but was unable to answer when I enquired as to the biblical example of a pragmatic compromiser.

    I was advised to leave his denomination when I expressed my disgust at his attitude and my belief that the Assemblies of God is virtually completely apostate.

    ICHABOD is the appropriate term for such groups.

    I have spoken to workers at Benny Hinn meetings in Australia who have been horrified at the level of fraudulent behaviour engaged in by these people. They tell me the fraud is actually choreographed and rehearsed.

    Hinn, of course, is not the only one. This sort of fraudulent behaviour is everywhere. I am completely convinced that the scripturally ignorant spiritually naive and just plain disobedient are deceived simply because they want to be.

    “And for this cause God shall send delusion to those who do not lve the truth but have pleasure in unrighteousness.”

    No Martha Nessman I do NOT hate anybody I am just sick and tired of this fraudulent misrepresentation of the christian faith. The eternal destiny of millions of people is very clearly at stake here.

  360. Ibelieve Sep 28th 2012

    More and more I am seeing Christian groups advertising Reiki, yoga classes, Tai Chi, in their services. It’s no wonder we are seeing more occultic manifestations in their meetings.

    They do not want to hear that it is wrong or it comes out of some other religion. They say they are more “inclusive”, in their views.

    Any open doors to false religions or the occult brings oppression to an individuals life as they have made a way for the devils deception in these endtimes.

  361. The spirit of God will always glorify Christ, speak according to God’s wisdom.
    We are never told to live by signs and wonders but by the Word of God.
    One trap of Satan is to make us so gift and sign oriented that we loose all focus of the truth.
    It’s this mistake we make we think we are spiritual if we have the gifts, being spiritual has to do with how much dying to the flesh I have done. On whom we depend, on whom we worship

  362. Instead of pursuing loving my neighbor God’s way, many are now caught up pursuing authority and power in the way of the flesh. The gifts minister properly when loving God and my neighbor are more important then the gifts. When you learn that authority is of little value in God’s kingdom then you become free from pursuing after signs and wonders. For many seek then to satisfy themselves rather than God.

  363. Just for reflection sake. I’d be interested to know the % on this website who have run a church.
    Furthermore to that, who have run a church for more then 10 years?

  364. Ps. Steve , so do you approve of New Age teachings and religion being mixed in with christian church meetings? You seem to be saying, “some people are getting healed so whatever we believe in is of God, is that accurate? Jesus heals but other faiths also have healing, I believed in and saw healing before I knew Jesus and it was not The Lord God doing the healing. If we do not stick to just Christ’s teaching we will be lost in the end, no matter what we accomplished or saw taking place.

  365. You can not follow Jesus unless you reject all other ways. We live by what only Jesus teaches or we will die in deception.

    John 14:6

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.

  366. JeffM,

    You’ve just hit on one of the things I’m having a hard time getting others to believe it seems, namely, that there are occult healings. Here’s one short (I promise) article questioning the source of Bill Johnson’s healing power. He initiallly ‘botched’ a healing and later claimed God “covered” him for it! Here’s the initial part as quoted from one of his books:

    …Then I paused for a moment and a thought occurred to me, “Should I shrink the long leg or lengthen the shorter leg? Most people wouldn’t mind being a little bit taller.” I caught him (and myself) completely off guard when I said, “Right leg, grow in Jesus’ name.”

    The right leg began to grow out slowly. Then all of a sudden it shot out past the other leg three or four inches and the guy screamed in pain! It was as though years of growing pains were hitting him all at once. On the outside I’m sure I looked very calm, but on the inside I was wondering, “What have I done! This guy thinks he hobbled in here…wait until he tries to walk out!

    He goes on to explain how he fixed this guy’s leg length disparity (resulting in the guy actually remaining 1.5 inches taller!). See the rest for full context:


    As I see it, this is either 1) an occult healing; or 2) Johnson is pulling our legs…

  367. Jeremy (DoG) Sep 28th 2012

    I agree that there is a nice unity in this discussion. Many of us have ‘come out from among them’ and it is refreshing to be among brothers and sisters that are on a similar path.

    How anyone can accuse Andrew of being critical or judgemental is beyond me. I have always found his writing to be the very definition of ‘speaking the truth in love’. As others have said it is most definately ‘love’ to warn other believers about the dangers of deception so prevalent in the modern, pseudo-charismatic church. To leave them without warning or admonition would make us guilty of neglect and indifference towards the Body of Christ – let it never be so.

    This article on Bill Johnson/ Bethel is very timely. I was only reading a couple of days ago that a pastor friend of mine (we parted company a few years ago ) has invited a lady called Joy Barham to ‘visit’ with his congregation. This woman apparantly trained in a process called ‘dream coaching’ at Bethel. Having viewed her website and read some of the ‘dream coaching/ dream culture’ rubbish coming from Danny Silk at Bethel I now understand that part of God’s plan for my life is to accomplish the personal dreams and aspirations I have for my life.

    Words fail me!

    So while my brothers and sisters around the world are being persecuted and killed for their faith, while believers are dying of starvation in places like North Korea, the western church is learning how to make their soulish, fleshly dreams come true.

    These men speak with such soft, loving tones and have the appearance of wisdom and grace but what they bring forth is pure anti-Christ (in place of Christ). They are clouds that have no rain, puffed-up with imaginations and self-delusion. Where is the cross? Where is self-denial? Where is being insignificant in our own eyes?

    Let us remain hidden, let us stay the course, let us keep our eyes on the prize. Surely the Judge of all the earth will do right!

    Even so, come Lord Jesus!

  368. Craig CrossWise, I read that link and found the source book and read the whole account. My mind can not get past the thought, The Lord your God is testing you to see if you will follow Him or another.

    It is plain that something is wrong in that healing. That is the danger of mixture you can not un-mix it and know where God stops and the false begins.

  369. Mick, Jesus runs His Church, for more than 10 years. Most of the other churches seem to be the competition .

  370. Craig, I AGREE also that there will be counterfeit miracles. I mentioned in an earlier post that a friend of mine was healed in a Todd Bentley meeting.

    I was able to share a little bit with her about what I am learning. She wanted NO part of hearing. She ‘had her healing’. Now don’t get me wrong, she’s a wonderful woman of God and I do believe in time, she’ll be open..but picture a person clutching their ‘gift’ with all their might. That’s how it appears to me, when you try to talk to a person that has experienced or ‘got something’ from these ministries.

    The more I think of it, the more I think that’s the HOOK.
    People don’t want to listen to sound doctrine because they want to be able to keep the toys that they got.

    All these feathers and jewels and such…all little trinkets – parting gifts if you will, from the party.

  371. JeffM,

    Mick, Jesus runs His Church, for more than 10 years. Most of the other churches seem to be the competition.

    Amen to that!

  372. In his book A Different Gospel, D.R. McConnell illustrates how E.W. Kenyon – the real father of the WoF and much of hyper-charismaticism – appropriated occult methods for healing, etc. from New Thought, Unity, Christian Science, et al to use in the ‘Church’. Paul warned about this syncretism in the book of Colossians.

  373. Jesus runs His church but the people in the church are so full of greed that they will not allow Jesus to run their lives. It isn’t that the truth is not preached but truth does not find room in peoples heart.
    God doesn’t give what we want or think we deserve but gives what we need according to His time.
    As always we blame the wrong things for failure for we fail to understand the true human condition and so remain trapped in our own understanding. Man places his wants as the most important rather than placing desiring God as most important and so we get caught in the snare of our own making (and yet blame everyone else but ourselves) We are the cause of our own blindness because we have refused to obey God and so are led into a trap of our own making.

  374. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    foolhardy fred – thank you for your answer :-)

    ibelieve – THANK YOU for your clear wisdom and the absolute STANDARD of the Word of God that you brought forth. amen.

    ps. steve – you sound VERY sincere and gracious – you cause me to WORRY for you – i believe, for the very reasons ‘ibelieve’ pointed out that you are sincerely deceived and having been so myself for so long, i feel great concern for you – PLEASE ask the LORD for the truth of HIS WORD to be revealed to you so that you will NOT ‘receive’ that which is not of Him – at least, CONSIDER this.

    one thing to remember as well – i HOPE – is that people are ‘STRONG’ in their beliefs about this for 2 reasons – they’ve been IN it and KNOW what truly ultimately ‘comes out of it’ and
    they are VERY VERY concerned for those that do NOT know that are led into deception. period. it isn’t ‘personal’ against any man or woman – only what they are allowing themselves to be USED for by the enemy of our souls – and also, PLEASE remember, deception is NOT obvious for ‘obvious’ reasons – do as several on here have said – EXAMINE the teaching BESIDE the Word of God and may i add one other thing – HONESTLY – where is the ‘focus’ – on the LORD JESUS CHRIST and what HE did?? or doesn’t it end up being about men and anointings and on and on and on and on…….i KNOW it does……and the MOMENT our focus becomes about any other thing than the PERSON of the LORD JESUS CHRIST – we are moving off into idolatry….truly.

  375. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    steve c – i felt my heart gripped by what you shared – gripped with sorrow – before i came to the end of your word i knew what you were going to say – how it would end – merciful LORD – we have so MUCH to answer for – the things that we, HIS people, have ALLOWED the enemy to do – all because we do NOT ‘love the truth’ and, instead, are SEDUCED by ‘doctrines of demons’ that we just think are ‘feel good/bless me/hallelujah new thing’ stuff – the ‘affair’ – NOT the ‘commitment’.
    thank you, brother steve. i heard the STRONG sound of warning in your words – as well as the sadness – i WOULD that others would hear – how much we ROB from even our ‘children’ by NOT heeding the warnings of His Word – thank you for speaking up.

  376. Amen Deby. Also, I wonder if people also have this idea that you can go in amongst this stuff and come back out unscathed. I’ve heard the term; “eat the meat, spit out the bones” a few times.

    Nothing can be further from the truth. You cannot just toy with this stuff. It is very dangerous. Especially if you allow them to lay hands on you and transfer this ‘anointing’.

    You can’t sit there on the sidelines and only participate in what you deem the ‘good parts’, but what you don’t realize is that the mixture will draw you in. The author of all this is the demonic, and we without the protection of the blood of Jesus, are no match for this.

  377. Jeremy, I am going to do a search on this name: Joy Barham It sounds so familiar!

  378. One of the biggest mistakes I made in my life after being filled with the Holy Spirit is to assume because I am filled I therefore know everything. Because I know everything then it gives me the right to judge everything and assume that everyone else is wrong. However the opposite is true I became proud of being filled with the spirit and did everything possible to others to prove what I had was better than what they had.
    It is this very attitude that makes us vulnerable to being deceived for when we think we have everything and know it all we are the ones in danger of being led astray.
    We can find everything wrong with someone else and still make the same mistakes they do for we fail to guard our hearts and our own pride.
    It is a sad thing when we are deceived but it will eventually happen for we are often too wise or to smart for we are over educated and have learned to depend on what we know rather than what God knows.

  379. Nicole Sep 28th 2012

    Boy what a lively group of people we have. Chitty chatty and it is good!!!!

    There does seem to be a “unity” in this group right now. And w/ saying that, for the ;most part a “love one another” type of atmosphere. We are all trying to learn, to see our sins and mistakes and misleadings and yearnings of getting into a group because of what ever reason.

    What I am saying is, all of us long for the love of the Lord to truly be present.

    There will always be those that are still involved that will come and crash the sight , but what I am hoping is that there will be more that will be able to either put a stop to it, question that /those person/persons and maybe cause them to do some reflection and repenting and renouncing.

    Craig, there is an “occult” healing. The kundalini spirit is usually placed in these “anointed ones” via another “anointed person” or even in P. King’s situation, many of her staff has taken reiki or healing touch or other eastern philosophies and in “laying on hands” from “eager folks/christians” wanting healing or emotional , physical or spiritual healing done, they fall prey to all this. It is like a airborne virus that gets passed on and on. The only remedy is Jesus and truly finding out that it is HE that does the healing. And yes, HE can and will use people, but there is a fine line and I truly believe that in time, He is and will test all these folks . I do not know who they are but in HIS TIME I am sure He will direct those to someone even if it is for a simple prayer, or helping them to “see” their misguided ways in these groups or thinking. Healing can be just as simple as leading someone to the Lord, allowing them to truly seek HIM.

    It always has to go back unto the Lord.

    It is great to give someone a complement and I appreciate those that are listening to my war stories. I think we all have them and we all can truly learn and even heal from them.

    But in saying that, I also want to say, GIVE THE TRUE PRAISE unto the Lord. I am just a servant of my Lord and Savior and it is unto HIM that the true pat on the back goes to. He sends messengers out there w/ their war stories to help those in need, but in return HE also is testing that person or persons to see their true response.

    I learned this in massage therapy. In life, and in the trenches of the war zone and you know, we aint’ seen nothing yet. We are all basically little babes still learning and learning how to handle situations.

    My heart wants to see everyone return unto the Lord and allow all else to fall by the wayside, but I know that won’t happen.

    Yet, this particular topic has opened the door to many that have been there , done it , and the Lord opened their eyes and ears, and they have learned and will continue to , I hope.

    I will write later. and give an address to those that would like to continue to share , if this topic gets closed,


  380. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    “No Martha Nessman I do NOT hate anybody I am just sick and tired of this fraudulent misrepresentation of the christian faith. The eternal destiny of millions of people is very clearly at stake here.”
    AMEN, FRED!!!

    “Any open doors to false religions or the occult brings oppression to an individuals life as they have made a way for the devils deception in these endtimes.”

    SIMON said:
    “One trap of Satan is to make us so gift and sign oriented that we loose all focus of the truth.
    It’s this mistake we make we think we are spiritual if we have the gifts, being spiritual has to do with how much dying to the flesh I have done. On whom we depend, on whom we worship

    Instead of pursuing loving my neighbor God’s way, many are now caught up pursuing authority and power in the way of the flesh. The gifts minister properly when loving God and my neighbor are more important then the gifts. When you learn that authority is of little value in God’s kingdom then you become free from pursuing after signs and wonders. For many seek then to satisfy themselves rather than God.”
    AMEN, SIMON!!!

  381. Nicole,

    Yes, and I’ve read that practitioners (even in the East) sometimes calls the spirit behind the Kundalini the “holy spirit”. Also, I’m aware that Patricia King (Cocking) is a former witch. Did she really make the transition to the Christian faith by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in response to a saving faith?

    I’m curious (and don’t answer if you don’t feel you should), are in Texas? I’m in San Antonio.

  382. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    brother jeremy – you said:
    “So while my brothers and sisters around the world are being persecuted and killed for their faith, while believers are dying of starvation in places like North Korea, the western church is learning how to make their soulish, fleshly dreams come true.”

    this is so HEARTBREAKING!!!! thank you for CLEARLY stating the DIFFERENCE between those following the TRUE gospel and those seeking the SELF CENTERED ME GOSPEL – just ‘another part’ of this WHOLE deception……
    instead of ‘HE MUST INCREASE, so i must decrease’ all we see in this ‘flow’ is ME ME ME – MY EXPERIENCES – MY REVELATIONS – MY ME MY ME MY ME!!!

    thank you, brother jeremy

    just an aside here – IF anyone is interested in a TRUE ministry that actually smuggles food in to the North Korean Christians that ARE being starved, i point you once again to david servant and heavensfamily – 100% of anything you send to a designated purpose goes for THAT purpose alone – the North Korean Christians are especially heavy on our hearts and we support them through this and thank God that we can.

  383. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    jeffm and craig c – amen to what you have shared – JESUS does INDEED ‘build and run’ HIS TRUE CHURCH
    and simon, once again, you are right – MUCH of what the LORD desires to do IN His church, we resist – it’s not ‘fun’ or even ‘pleasant’ to be ‘conformed to HIS image’…..
    you said;
    “The more I think of it, the more I think that’s the HOOK.
    People don’t want to listen to sound doctrine because they want to be able to keep the toys that they got.

    All these feathers and jewels and such…all little trinkets – parting gifts if you will, from the party.”

    amen. i actually had a ‘sister’ in the LORD that was working with us at the coffeehouse – when all the stuff concerning lakeland started ‘coming down’ and we were ‘fighting’ it felt as ‘for our very spiritual lives’ – when i told her this stuff was NOT the LORD – her response was, ‘i know, BUT I LIKE IT’! this was not some ‘young christian’ but she was so ENAMORED of it all and some of the ‘young people’ there ran to ‘her side’ because they wanted it, too. oh, the things we will answer for if we do NOT repent.

  384. Steve, thank you for sharing this – a much needed-sobering testimony of what happens when you allow this in the church.

    Interesting how the Word teaches us to be “sober” and BIG part of this ‘new’ move is to get DRUNK. That’s a pretty obvious contrast!

    I am almost your age group, but not quite. I also have a church split story.

    I was attending a small, Spirit-filled, Bible believing church. I was just a young mother at the time, but I remember with fondness the early days of the church. LOVE for one another would be the thing I remember the most. We truly did. We all went from house to house fellowship with one another and everyone was leading people to Christ and doing practical things for one another. It was a beautiful and exciting time, that I will never forget! We talked and walked JESUS, 24-7!

    Our Leadership decided to go to these conferences that were being held in Portland. As a side note, and a big lesson to me, I used to be SO upset because every, single time these conferences were held, although my husband and I were asked to go, we couldn’t ever make it. THANK YOU JESUS!

    Anyway, to continue. They came back from this one particular conference and they became immediately began teaching this “Dominion Theology”. Wheww, my head was spinning! I literally felt like my world and the proverbial rug, was pulled out from under me. It was so confusing because half the stuff they preached, didn’t even make sense!

    What ensued was a huge church split, tons of people getting injured..and lots of very painful times for all of us!

    We ended up leaving that church and that was when we had an experience similar to what at lot attest to here, people would literally avoid us on the street. OUCH!

    Anyway, my story ends a little differently. The Pastor at that time felt “called” to go back to California where he’d originally come from. He ended up going and leaving the church with two of the Pastor/Elders who were into this same junk. (basically the two guys single-highhandedly destroyed the whole church) But, ,the story doesn’t end there. That same Pastor, a couple years later, REPENTED! He wanted to come back and tell the people he had sinned for allowing this junk into the church. He was devastated over what happened and he wanted to come back and make it right with the congregation.

    Do you know what happened? The new leadership wouldn’t ALLOW him back in the pulpit! They refused to let him PREACH in “his” own church that he had planted!

    So, God bless him………wonderful man that he was/is, he rented a gym and he personally invited people to come. He shared in tears with the people how he had sinned and how sorry he was and in detail how these doctrines are wrong!

    Some of the people listened, but a lot of them never did. It’s the same story as Steve, a lot of the people are not even serving the Lord anymore. One particular Leader, too.

    It’s a sad story of wreckage, and it could have been avoided.

  385. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    simon – you said:
    It is a sad thing when we are deceived but it will eventually happen for we are often too wise or to smart for we are over educated and have learned to depend on what we know rather than what God knows.

    dear brother – you are so right. i felt EXACTLY the same way as you said – i had been raised in a baptist church and was taught to be VERY anti- Spirit filled….AFTER entering into this i was DEFENSIVE because of family and always wanted to ‘prove’ that what i had was REAL and better than what THEY had…..sigh….

    as i shared in earlier threads – after going through several years of horrific things, i came to the place of being utterly ‘stripped down’ – utterly……all i KNEW that I truly ‘possessed’ was a GOD that loved me and would NOT give up on me….that’s all i truly KNEW – that HE was EVERYTHING and i absolutely NOTHING without HIM – but i also KNEW that as much as it HURT, i COULD live without any other thing, any other person, but i could NOT live without HIM. amen.

  386. debylynne I have difficulty being praised as right, I know that is the new way of doing things but for me I find it offensive should not our praise go to God?

  387. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    DL – PRAISE GOD for the ‘pastor’ coming back to repent!!! praise GOD for his eyes being opened.
    amen and amen and amen!!!!

    THIS is what we TRULY want – NOT to see ANYONE destroyed – not even ‘deceived leaders’ – but to see them come to the ‘knowledge of the truth’ – to repent – to seek to make amends – to seek to ‘help free’ those that they ‘helped bind’ in this deception. amen.

  388. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    simon – absolutely – and i am NOT here to ‘praise you in your flesh’. please realize that i am REJOICING in the LORD each time i hear HIS truth spoken – i am THANKING you for allowing Him to speak THROUGH you and for being willing to share what is on your heart….that is all, my brother.

  389. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    i feel such ‘gratitude’ – when you have spent years WITHOUT true fellowship with those that are walking in the light – it makes you REALLY REALLY appreciate not only the LORD for His goodness, but those that He has allowed you to have fellowship with – you people give me hope – through HIM – you give me hope.

  390. Exactly Deby, I had completely forgotten about that until this morning, again.

    I am personally encouraged by all the testimonies here. I don’t hear a ‘them and us’ mentality. Most of the people, like myself, are admitting that they too, were involved and have now decided to forsake it. That’s admitting we are sinners and we fail. I like that!
    (not that we failed, but that we are ADMITTING)

    That’s encouraging to me because until i found this little corner of the world, I assumed that most everyone that calls themselves “Charismatic” was a probably a fruit-loop! LOL I no longer call myself that. Mostly because of guilt by association, but also because I am a Jesus follower, first and foremost.

    I have called myself Pentecostal, more recently, but even that association doesn’t quite ‘fit’ me, anymore.

  391. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    once more!! i DO understand what you are saying, simon, and i will seek to respect your wishes in this – it is sometimes QUITE uncomfortable to have people seemingly ‘praise us’ when we KNOW that the only good that comes forth is HIM and we do NOT want to be ‘esteemed’ as more than what we are – so, i WILL take note and be careful about this.

  392. We did it again, Deby :) We posted nearly the same thing, at the same time. :) Stop doing that! LOL

  393. Andrew – Thank you for exposing the false teaching and deception that has become so common in “christian” churches and ministries.
    How is it that so many can be decieved by such a simple message – DUH!
    John 3:16
    King James Version (KJV)
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

  394. What is the road to deception
    -an hidden desire in our heart not yet restrained
    – a desire to be placed in a position of honour
    -years of service so we become self conceited
    praised by men as knowing, unable to say no
    think we know everything about discernment
    depending on human or the worlds wisdom instead of God’s
    one way or another we get ensnared by our own desires or wants and in the end deceives us into thinking of our own importance or jealous of others. In a culture were everything is measured by who we are and what we know it is very easy to see why we are led astray. For the Christian it is who God see we are and what He knows that keeps us on guard against being led astray

  395. debylynne Sep 28th 2012

    amen, pbob

    i actually found myself led into deception NOT only because of wanting some ‘recognition’ or ‘place of honor’ but because i was very trusting and very foolish…

    as i alluded to before, when you were raised in my generation as a ‘southern female’ you were raised to NOT make trouble, NOT make anyone ‘uncomfortable’ and NOT question ‘authority’ – perfect candidate for manipulation and control!! oh, how i wanted to PLEASE our ‘leaders’. it ALL comes back to selfishness, though. we do what we do because we WANT to be ‘accepted’ and ‘liked’ and ‘approved of’ – mememe…..
    i had to get REALLY angry before i would ‘stand up’ to anything, but, when i did, THANK YOU LORD, I DID! and became, instantly labeled a TROUBLEMAKER!! i was actually told that i was ‘manifesting’ when i stood up to the one ‘apostle’ and ‘questioned’ him…..sigh…………(this WAS a private meeting and NOT out in front of the whole congregation!! – there were a few there but i WAS trying to still be ‘respectful’ :-/)

    there ARE ‘weak willed’ individuals who just want to ‘please’ and i think they are PRIME targets for this mess, as well……

  396. Nicole Sep 28th 2012

    I think most all of us “respect” one another is some form or fashion. We are human, and we do like it when comments are made to help us become encouraged. I think we can all admit that.

    And as we do that, giving thanksgiving to our Lord is utmost important. I think we can all pretty ;much agree on that also.

    What Simon has stated in the last entry is very true. Sometimes, that “hidden desire in our heart, not yet restrained” is not noticable to us. Sometimes it can cause us to have big swollen heads and that is something I know that the Apostles of the bible contended w/ at times. Another lesson for us and we all sin and therefore we all can learn from our mistakes.

    Someone mentioned to me, earlier this morning or late last night, that I was possibly “spared” that I was overlooked the times I wanted to give a testimony of the Lord. I think that person was correct. I have other situations that this happened and it was a very humbling and yet very revealing how the church /or groups can and will be and how we are at different places in this so called journey we are taking . I will reveal more, because i do believe we can learn from this and it is us , all of us, opening up, taking a chance and learning to trust again. I have to admit, I too, feel like a hammer has been taken to me and I am a peg that the hammer has come down on. But, in that, I also see the greatness of our Lord and HIS MERCY and my yearning to seek HIM and learn from HIM , learn from my mistakes which will , I hope help others in return. Some people don’t want the truth or to hear others testimonies, others, will learn and yearn from them and go unto the Lord and lay themselves down unto HIM.

    Here is an address I don’t check every day, but it is o.k to post this one.

    [email protected]

    Blessings to all,

    I will be back on later today.

  397. debylynne Sep 29th 2012

    thank you, nicole
    email duly noted – i’ll be sending you mine shortly :-)

  398. debylynne Sep 29th 2012

    i appreciate nicole posting her email and i have already sent her mine. i hesitate to post here publicly since many times people that do NOT have the LORD’S heart use that as an opportunity to ‘harass’ those that see ‘differently’ from them :-( i hope that does NOT happen to nicole – but, i would like to suggest ‘something’ since she HAS posted openly – DL or anyone else that is TRULY interested can send their email to nicole (as i have done) and she, i am SURE, would happily ‘share them’ with the rest of us!! someone said earlier that andrew will do this, as well??

  399. debylynne Sep 29th 2012

    DL – saw your post – lol!

  400. Thanks Nicole, I sent you mine…kindly pass on Debylynne’s to me, too!
    I’m also a little concerned about you posting your email Nicole. Maybe you could ask Andrew to remove it “soon”?

  401. debylynne Sep 29th 2012

    i’ve been looking at some of the material that craig c provided. this quote from alice bailey positively makes my blood run cold…

    “The Christian church in its many branches can serve as a St. John the Baptist, as a voice crying in the wilderness, and as a nucleus through which world illumination may be accomplished…The church must show a wide tolerance…The church as a teaching factor should take the great basic doctrines and (shattering the old forms in which they are expressed and held) show their true and inner spiritual significance [ED: occult/esoteric meaning]. The prime work of the church is to teach, and teach ceaselessly, preserving the outer appearance in order to reach the many who are accustomed to church usages. Teachers must be trained; Bible knowledge must be spread; the sacraments must be mystically interpreted, and the power of the church to heal must be demonstrated.”

    my LORD, my LORD!!! look at the ‘mystically interpreted’ and the ‘power of the church to heal must be demonstrated”……..
    AND ‘preserving the outer appearance of order”


  402. Nicole Sep 29th 2012

    Thanks for all your concerns. I appreciate it. I will go to the box and get e-mails as soon as I can.

    It is o.k. This address is an o.k. location for e-mails. As far as “harrassing” If one has ever been in business, junk mail is always harrassing.

    But everything is duly noted and I look forward to corresponding. — soon I hope.


  403. I feel as though I have to step away from this a little. Not getting out of the battle, or to hid my head in the sand, not like that. I got so much info over the past week, that I have to step back and sort out what this means to ME, personally.

    I am now realizing that though I never embraced a lot of the crazy stuff I am reading here, I still need to be sure that I haven’t allowed other chinks in my spiritual armor. I’m almost at information overload, I honestly had no clue it was THIS bad!

    Does, or did anyone else, here, feel that when you were first learning?

    I am not in the midst of any of this right now, so I am not dealing with it “inside, out:..but more looking back over my last 30+ years of the Charismatic movement and wondering now, what really IS of God, and what is, not?

    Honestly, I can totally get why those that are not of the mind that the Spirit and the gifts are for today, would be so completely turned off.

    Emotionally, I am ready to throw it ALL out, in favor of God starting in me a fresh!

  404. debylynne,

    And which organization claims to have “forerunners”, ‘John the Baptists’, who are heralding the 2nd coming with churches worldwide?

  405. Nicole Sep 29th 2012

    Debbylynne, and others,

    It is well known in the “new age” movement that the unity between R. Warren , Dr. Oz, (who is a muslim , and the other two doctors, one is jewish, not in Christ, and the other is mormon) they have all formed “unity and love” using the biblical verses to come against those that “judge” them.

    It is also known in the new age movement, or massage world, to some extent, that the unity of embracement and empowerment is universal and what they want is to infiltrate , little by little , the “common ground” of the churches, uniting them into One world religion/ unity/ new age enlightenment.

    As I finally was led to figure out that Christians tend to re code things, like “we must all have new wine, and do away w/ the old wineskins, ” We must take back what satan stole from us”, we are to get 30,60,100 percent fold back, etc.etc.etc.etc. we were all basically dummied down into believing what mystical teachings teach, but w/ out the lingo of new age .

    Notice Joel Osteen, it is just now, that he is “embracing” the new age mentality more openly and that was since he bowed down to Depak Chopra and Oprah as did T.D. Jakes, and R. Warren. There are a mess of people that we all know in the Christian realm that has literally bowed down and embraced new age . Some might know, and do it willingly, others might be naive and don’t realize it. ONCE one becomes aware of it, That is then their CHOICE to either say, goodbye, repent, renounce and ask for forgiveness, or they can choose to stay in it and if they do that and not lay it all down UNTIL the Lord, says O.K. then they are entering more and more into the world of waxed over hearts and delusion.

    Today is Friday, and I have errands to run and I will be back on and off .

    Like I said, most all of us have been tainted somehow and we are becoming more aware now and can learn.

    By the way, I truly believe that until we truly repent and renounce, it is so very easy to go from one form of apostacy to another. (getting into one group , thinking we are done and it is easy to still get involved in another)

    I can explain later. But I have seen this happened and it happened to me for a short time also. God is purifying us , me, daily. As I see things and realize, “oh my” this was me!!!! God forgive me. And I know He does. But then it is up to me, to continue to want to Please HIM. When I finally realized how much I was hurting my Lord, that was an awakening moment. And yet, I know He so loved and loves me still. !!!!!!!!

  406. debylynne Sep 29th 2012

    oh, my, craig – i have HEARD that very ‘phrase’ so many times…….:-(

  407. Nicole Sep 29th 2012

    DL— do just that. Start all over again. Toss it out, and allow the Lord Jesus Christ and Father and Holy SPirit to reteach you. It will be a journey, it will be a clinging to HIS VINE and it will be many tears .

    I don’t say this easily. I say it in Truth.

    After my healing, I thought I was ready to go right back into an office and tell my testimony and give God all the Glory. Is that not what we are taught?

    He had different ideas. I had to let go of all my learnings and teachings and lay them all down to the Lord, allow HIM to remold and make me, and then allow HIM to readjust what I was to do , during massage. It is still not easy and I still am not where I was nor probably will ever be, but I know I am listening to the Lord now, and when I don’t , i so am in despair.

    You probably are overwhelmed and on overload and that is natural. You are basically realizing that most everything we have learned in churches has been tainted somewhere some how and the church is not what it was in the days of the biblical Apostles. Our eyes are opening up , for those that want them to be and are calling out unto the Lord.

    It you take a break , do, and know that you are being prayed for. And again, I will check my other status later.

    and pass them on if you like. God knows just the right timing .

  408. This is getting interesting I wondered why the Holy Spirit will no longer allow me to minister in the gifts only to share God’s word and His wisdom.
    Perhaps it is time to look at things from a different perspective it is only as we abide in the Lord that we are kept safe from deception and evil it is our preoccupation with signs and wonders that so many have fallen into error.

  409. debylynne,

    Now, try to find that concept in the Bible.

    I note that Mike Bickle has made the claim that, “Luke 1 and 2, in my opinion, become the most prophetic chapters in the New Testament of the coming revival.”

  410. Nicole, thanks for saying that. There seems to be layers, upon layers. I honestly THOUGHT I’d come to the end of all the bad teaching, religious teaching, bondage…but perhaps not, even YET!

    When I went through my divorce and God disciplined me, everything I ever thought I knew, came crashing down.

    My husband and I have been renouncing and confessing sin, as God brings it up, in so many areas. We’ve been on this journey for months and months! I’m sure people would think we’re crazy if they knew! (sadly even the church) We’ve gone through all our movies (even the Christian ones), all our music, everything we’ve ever offered to God in the form of our ‘religion’ and on and on an ON..and still.. more! LOL Our celebrations (ie Christmas, Easter, etc) We’ve been purging our lives and our home of anything and everything that wouldn’t be pleasing to the Lord.

    I do thank God that He loves me enough to go through my ENTIRE life and set the foundation right, it just gets overwhelming at times! But that’s ok.

  411. Good morning from NZ – a lot of posts to read through :-)

    With regard to layers, a close friend explained it to me this way – we are like an onion, God strips away one layer, and there is revealed yet another one that He will deal with – as long as we allow Him to !!

    One other thing, we (wife and I) were in some of these false teachings, abuse of scripture, directional prayer etc., for many years as we ‘church hopped’ we believed that WE were wrong – many told us this.

    Some while after Lord Jesus called us out of these things and into His ‘church/ekklesia’, He showed us that He had allowed us to go through these things, so that we would understand what He does NOT desire us to be a part of.

    We now see that this was a part of His discipling us, His training, teaching, showing us that His way is the only way..

    In the love which is Christ Jesus our risen Lord,

  412. Sorry, one last thing – repentance is a part of life, not a once off.

    To explain my experience – I still have flashbacks of words spoken, actions taken that were wrong. In most cases I cannot go back to that person and set this right.

    However I can take this to Lord Jesus and repent, and then ask Him to continue bringing these things to the surface for Him to deal with..

    Another ‘layer’..? Yes, I believe so :-)

  413. Martin Sep 29th 2012

    And here’s another pebble in the pond:

    Much of this turns on how we use the Bible.

    If we use this most wonderful of books as a source book, a manufacturer’s handbook as we would the guide to a washing machine or fridge/freezer, then we’re doomed to fail. There is no other outcome. In this scenario, we hurl proof texts at each other, much like a battering ram, or as in the case of one dear soul on here, like death sentence!

    Now, another scenario, which I was told about thirty years ago by a most Godly retired Methodist minister. Let’s use this book as a means to find the mind of God; use to to fulfil Paul’s desire that the mind of Christ be also in us.

    Ah!! Perhaps now we’re getting to the heart of the matter. Satanism, which is the correct term for so many inroads into Christianity, has got a foothold not because we don’t know the Scriptures. No, it’s because we haven’t immersed ourselves (not soaked, ref posts above) in the mind of God, the heart of God.

    A quick look at this concept. Jesus knew the OT just as if He’d written it (that’s a surprise to many). Of course, He’s the incarnate Word, isn’t He? But look here. He knew the mind of God at any given moment of any given day, even to his last moments on the cross. He was immersed in the OT, He knew the mind of God.

    For what purpose did Paul say he wanted us to have the mind that was in Christ in us? Just that, so we could be more like Jesus.

    Every man or woman who has impacted the world in the Name of Jesus has been absolutely soaked in the Bible. Name than: Wesley, Spurgeon, Graham, Smith Wigglesworth. This list goes on … But the fact remains. They knew the mind of God.

    Do we?

  414. Martin Sep 29th 2012

    Roger, my experience too.

    Technical problems here. Standby, please.

  415. Nicole Sep 29th 2012

    Now I really have to go, but DL. I have been truly where you are, and have been and are going.

    Our second marriage, now of 24 1/2 years and only 8 1/2 years ago, did we start doing what you continue to do.

    If someone where to ask me, “do you think you two are going to be w/ our Lord, Jesus Christ in heaven, I CAN ONLY NOW say YES. How foolish I was to think 9 -10 yrs. ago and up to 25 yrs. ago, I was truly going to be there w/ HIM.

    The road is long, narrow and a true dumping of self .

    Your not crazy but truly love the Lord and doing what it takes to get right w/ HIM.

    Christmas, Easter, oh my, hey your talking to a Greek gal brought up that “family” is everything. The Lord moved me and my kids almost 29 yrs. ago. I got a divorce, and moved 200 miles from Houston . Family is wonderful and I love them, but I had to leave them in order to grow in the Lord and I have yet arrived where I am sure He wants me. In other words, you are correct, it is a peeling away of layers.

    You and many are on a trail right now, I am going to throw a monkey wrench in this because it has been on my heart for months now, and the Lord is not letting it die down.

    If someone can find where it says that the 5 fold ministry will be in tact in all churches. Let me know.

    We all talk about “5 fold” YES, biblically there is the 5 fold of Apostle , Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, and Pastor.

    BUT where does it say IN THE BIBLE that GOD is bringing those back, giving them double anointing power and or power, and that the 5 -fold will be in all the churches.???

    This is part of dominion theology , and W of F. I can not find it in the bible. even going back to the Hebrew and Greek .

    I was in meeting after meeting where all I heard was “we are taking back what satan stole from us, God is anointing each of us to do what we are to do” EACH OF YOU will be Prophets, Apostles, Teachers, Evangelists and Pastors and when we all form together , then that is when the Lord will have us reign”

    I heard this over and over from James Goll, P, King, B. Johnson, R. Joyner, Peter Wagnor, C. Jacobs, Chuck Pierce, Dutch Sheets. and this system has grown. This is dominion theology and the only true place I see any recognition is

    TO ELDERS and DECONS. and look around you, and see how many of them are truly living the life that the bible says to live.

    I am not downing churches. Believe me, I would love to be in one that I could fellowship w/ the Pastor and leaders and not be on the run when I ask a sincere question or ousted out .

    But we all have to truly ask the Lord. We can come together in unity and love and ask and hopefully not be dummied down, or belittled for asking, but we each have to face the Lord now and ask these questions and allow HIM to show us. We have allowed people to sometimes take the place of our Lord.

    Hey, I don’t want to be “held up” in honor or glory. I am learning just like the rest of you , and that is the way it will ALWAYS BE. And if any of us, start getting a little swell headed. then it is only the true Christian brother or sister that should be able to confront in love and talk about it.

    One thing is for sure. Most of us, have all left places in the Christian community that there are broken hearted people and relationships.

    I have learned that some of us , including me, might not catch on at first, but why should I be dummied down and kicked around for not understanding. What I do want to see, is us yes, having to move away, but hey, if that person that we confront, comes back to us in 6 months or a yr. or 5 yrs. I want to be able to say, I love you sister or brother in Christ and Praise HIS HOLY NAME.

    That is the unity and Love Christ is talking about. ONE ACCORD IN HIM.

    I have left hundreds behind but my heart and e-mail and most have my number, it is there for them to call any time. If I see them in the store, like I saw one at a grand opening this past week, I went up to her, gave her a hug, told her good luck w/ her business, and I testimony unto the Lord. (she is very big in the dominion /marketplace /7 mountains) The glory and HIS LIGHT was what I wanted her to see. And I hope she did. But if I don’t see her again, I know that my heart was in good intention and I can’t help what she “feels or says”.

    So, I know I opened a can of worms w/ this stuff. But it goes hand in hand w/ Mike Bickle and I HOP and all the rest.

    And if anyone sees that Jesus said “5 fold ministry will be in all churches and that is the desire of God’s heart and for us to go forth”.


    There was a couple of years, very strong teachings were going on just recently, that the APOSTLES and PASTORS were in the churches, but that the PROPHETS needed their recognition. That came straight from Cindy Jacobs / her ministry w/ Chuck Pierce and Peter Wagnor and

    I even sat in Cornerstone Women’s Bible study and I had women tell me that they were “waiting for the Prophets to form and come into play in the church. !!!! That was even a bigger eye opener , those 7 weeks or so that I was involved w/ them.!!!!!!!

    All Praises truly Go unto the Lord and HIS GENTLE LOVE and MERCY and GRACIOUSNESS for us.!!!!!!!

  416. Thanks Roger, that helps.
    I agree repentance must be a forever thing. It should have been all along, but I got caught up in other junk and the that became my emphasis.

    I have another question for y’all. What about the teachings of the Elijah House – the Sandfords?

    I’ve had a REAL check in my spirit about this….lately, still…….always, had. I (we) were introduced to it many years ago in the 80’s.

    Our church had their teaching last year and we went..but my husband and I had such a hard time embracing a lot of it.

    Anyone that can point us to some teaching about it, or their associations, please do. thanks!

  417. Very good question NICOLE! I even mentioned that in a post or two, back.

    You’re very right when you say there is a very heavy emphasis on this in the Dominion Theology. Makes perfect sense in a humanly sense, because that is the platform that is used to abuse and lead astray the sheep.

    You know? I would LITERALLY cringe, when I’d hear the words “commitment” or “submission to the leadership”. Those terms NEVER meant anything good in my experience. They were whips in the hands of men (and women) who were given authority by ‘god’ to rule over us. “for our own goods, you know’.

    Though, there are 5 ministries (well maybe 4 if you adhere to the newer version we heard, that that Pastor/Teacher was one) appointed by God, to do the work of the ministry…which is EQUIP the SAINTS TO DO THE WORK.

    I am absolutely sure of only one thing, about it all. That is that I don’t think I know diddly squat about it, anymore. :)

  418. Here’s an article by Orrel Steinkamp on the Sandfords:


  419. Nicole Sep 29th 2012


    Your check “in the spirit” and not being able to embrace the Sanfords, was , most likely the red flags that I get also. Hope this helps.

    Do a search on them. They have spin words, ‘transformation” healing schools, check out who they associate w/ here are a few.



    this portion came from Apprising Ministries under this subtitle


    How did I learn about “panentheism?

    About 10 years ago I became embroiled in a controversy over the inner healing ministry of John and Paula Sandford. I was forced to read their book “The Transformation of the Inner Man.” I was shocked by their psychological regression therapies based directly and unashamedly on Freud and Jung. I began a wide ranging investigation of the Sandfords and their ministry. In the process I happened upon some transcriptions of tapes by the Sandfords. These tapes and other Sandford books revealed a thorough going panentheistic worldview.

    In one of the tapes, Dan M, the interviewer, asks Sandford about a statement made in the Sandfords book Elijah Task in which the Sandfords state: “Every plant and bit of earth, all seas and winds each animal and thing has intelligence, will, and desire in it.” (Elijah Task, p. 144). John responds: “You need to understand that God has so created everything and that his Spirit is redolent page5image11296in it…all things have intelligence.” Sandford continues: “And in criminology they have found they can bring 4 suspects before plants and the plants will tell them who the criminal page5image13728is… But they can’t use it in court. Can you imagine, “I was convicted by a rhododendron.”(tape 57).In these tapes Sanford refers to”animalspirits”which he says are looked after by satan and others by angels. Sandford even allows for spirits of the departed to attach themselves to living persons, justifying this from the apocryphal book of 2 Esdras.

    The Sandford’s book The Transformation of the Inner Man and related materials were used in a local church and as a regional minister with oversight I confronted this and received a rebuke and curse from the Sandfords for my efforts. Initially I called Sandford’s view pantheism. But I found out later it was not pure pantheism as stated above but a close variant called panentheism which is a difference that is only slightly different.

    Finally I again encountered Contemplative Prayer ideas in a church nearby. It presented itself in a well disguised form and became the basis of an 8 week series of sermons and bible study groups. The source was Peter Scazzero’s book Emotionally Healthy Spirituality and an introduction video and a self published prayer guide called the “Daily Office.” I found out later that Scazzero, a graduate of Gordon- Conwell Seminary and his wife go on meditation retreats to a Trappist monastery each year. The Trappist monks and monasteries have become centers of contemplative prayer. “The Daily Office”, Scazzero’s workbook title, should have been a dead give away in that “Daily Office” is a well recognized Catholic term used by monks for daily devotion. But for me it was the end notes of The Daily Office that concerned me in that it was loaded with copious quotes from many current Catholic purveyors of Contemplative Spirituality including Merton, Nouwen, Keating and DeMello etc. These Catholic monks and mystics are the source of the current fad of Roman Catholic mystical teaching called Contemplative Prayer. These endnotes in The Daily Office were of no meaning to anyone in this bible study group but myself. It turns out that Scazzero has a full agenda for his ministry of introducing Contemplative Prayer to evangelicals. I found that Scazzero has led retreats sponsored by Focus on the Family and at Saddleback church. Scazzero is well schooled in the Desert Fathers etc.

    The bait and cover for evangelicals is found in Scazzero’s book titled, Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. The appeal is to believers drained emotionally and needing a place of quiet and stillness. Contemplative Prayer and stillness seems to be the answer for these emotionally challenged evangelicals. Historic Contemplative Prayer promises to help us slow down and enter quietness and find a new victory for our harried lives. In a congregation of 1200, as far as I know, no one realized what was going on. The pastor was able to loosely preach from the Scazzero’s book and retranslate Scazzero’s teaching back into familiar Christian evangelical terminology. I am not sure he was aware of what he was doing. For him it was an honest attempt to help people get off their treadmill existence an refocus spiritually . Who was to know that this study material was a clever introduction to an evangelical church of the historic practice of contemplative spirituality. Indeed in his book Scazzero does refer to “Centering Prayer” and entering into silenc (p. 45). But who knows what “centering prayer” and entering “The Silence” actually is. Who would know that Merton, Nouwen, Keating and DeMello and others listed in the endnotes were the new catholic monks and mystics who are panentheistic practitioners.

  420. There are three attitudes in Jesus ministry
    humility ( meek of heart)
    compassion (love of God)
    works ( by the finger of God) or by God’s grace
    so we have humility, love and the grace of God
    any of these things not displayed lacks an understanding of both the work of the cross and the working of the Holy Spirit
    Anything the claims it has victory by power or any other way has not yet had to deal with death and sin and the occult in which one discovers his true weakness.
    Since Jesus taught us to walk in humility rather then in authority then to place authority as important is not wise.
    The way out of many of these problem is to consider ourselves slaves of Christ which means restricted will, lack of personal freedom, and a given up of doing what ever we want.
    In reality God calls us to submit to Christ in all things not to people. In any human relationship serving one another must come out of love from both the leader and the follower not out of compulsion as many expect . For we are not to Lord it over one another but to serve one another.

  421. Thank you Craig and Nicole. I am checking into that link Craig, and what you wrote, now Nicole.
    I have sick feeling. It makes me ill.

  422. Nicole,

    Very good info!

    Panentheism is the theological backdrop for occult/New Age thinking. Everything has a ‘divine spark’ inside. For humans, the goal is to activate the ‘divine spark’ such that you become a literal god, i.e. humans (similar to all other things) are made up of a human nature and a latent divine nature. Just ‘activate’ the ‘divine nature’ and eventually the ‘divine’ supplants the human.

    Ever heard within hyper-charismaticism that we are partakers of the divine nature? Panentheism, I contend, is the root of that teaching. Now, of course, we are partakers of the divine nature by the Holy Spirit indwelling (2 Peter 1:4); however, pay close attention to the way in which hyper-charismatics present this teaching.

    The vehicle to ‘expand’ ones ‘divine nature’ is meditative prayer / contemplative prayer / soaking…

  423. Just so you know Nicole & Craig. The article lost me on page one already. Reading through the lineup of who his associations are with, is enough for me!

    I haven’t even read through the whole thing. I just wanted to post it here to see what others see.

    I am getting better at checking out the source and ROOTS of the thing..THAT is a better indicator than the supposedly ‘good’ fruit that comes out of it.

    At least now I know why it didn’t sit right with me!

  424. DeWayne Sep 29th 2012

    ibelieve… keep plugging about mixing good and bad, like said,

    Matt 24:24-25 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect — if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

    There is no doubt, a spoon full of sugar, will make Satans teachings… go down easier.

  425. “Little sins, big sins”. It isn’t wise for us to classify them. Sin is Sin…and we all know God hates Sin. We are in an area I’m not comfortable with. Enthusiasm and excitement over throwing everything out is good, but it’s a physical action, not spiritual. In the physical we cannot please our Lord and Savior, period..

    When we pray in faith (tiny as a mustard seed) we will be forgiven. The Holy Ghost does not want to be praised and get attention. He is to lead us into all Truth.. Impluse, if not dealt with early in life, will become our biggest enemy. (reminds me of Peter walking on water…I remind myself of his actions so much. ‘Never, Lord, I’ll never deny You!’)) Impulse can work for us, or it can bring much grief and unnecessary heartaches.

  426. I should have stated the definition for panentheism explicitly. “Pan” is ‘all’, “en” is ‘in’ and ‘theos” is God; hence ‘all is in God’ and God is in all. Sounds confusing, but here’s a quick definition I came up with:

    In panentheism, God is both transcendent (outside the cosmos) while simultaneously immanent, within all matter. This immanence is the ‘god within’ (or “Christ within”, seed, divine spark) which inter-connects with all others; i.e., the ‘god within’ one person or thing is of the same essence as the ‘god within’ another.

    Their are different occult versions for just how this happened, but, essentially the ‘god within’ needs to reconnect with the transcendant ‘god’ so that God becomes “one” again. This is why unity is so important to New Agers. Isn’t the call for unity at the expense of doctrine one of the utmost concerns of hyper-charismatics?

  427. yes and if we are all gods (little “g”) then extra Biblical stuff, made up on the fly, is okie-dockie, too.

    This is also Catholic, no? My husband was just reading about it last night.

    Connecting the dots……..here……..to beat the BAND! LOL

  428. DeWayne Sep 29th 2012

    Your mention of three attitudes in Christ’s ministry, reminded me of the question, does God hate anyone… or does hate actually mean loving one less than another.
    What was discovered is that it means both, the love of God is very complex… can agape be fully explained, exccept as one person explained, It must not be confused with the verb agapao ?

  429. DL,

    I’m not very well versed in Roman Catholicism (RCC) however, from what I’ve seen, the basic Catholic Christology is just fine (I have researched that a bit). The problem is the Mariology which contradicts their Christology, their views on the Pope, Priests, etc. And, from what I can glean they are Dominionists. Having said that, we all know how some ‘churches’ have orthodox statements of faith, yet their practice is far from it.

    The Roman Catholic mystics have had an influence on some Protestants for sure. I’m not sure of the official Vatican stance on say, Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, etc.; and, I’m not sure if they themselves were specifically panentheists, i.e. if they outright admitted this. But, it seems Nicole has found this to be true. However, the true goal of contemplative prayer is go inside oneself to get in touch with the ‘god within’. If that’s the end goal, then it’s panentheistic.

  430. Nicole wrote:
    “You need to understand that God has so created everything and that his Spirit is redolent page 5 image11296 in it…all things have intelligence.” Sandford continues: “And in criminology they have found they can bring 4 suspects before plants and the plants will tell them who the criminal page 5image13728 is… But they can’t use it in court. Can you imagine, “I was convicted by a rhododendron.” (tape 57).

    This is reminding me of the false teachings of vibrating … especially as taught through Chuck Pierce, which goes along the lines of ‘everything has a vibration and we need to get into the same frequency with god’.

    Quote from Pierce’s Issachar School:
    “…he resonating, the groaning ….. its basically energy that’s vibrating and we all vibrate…. This sounds so New Agey but its not, you know when you say negative vibes … you are literally feeling negative vibes from that person and its causing a disruption in your frequencies …. You just are vibrating, everybody vibrates at a different level … and we are an extension of His vibrations, an extension of who He is …. And I know New Agers have taken that and made themselves god out of it, but there is a truth there in that we all have come from the same source and vibration and frequency (of God) …. And when we release that sound all together as a people there’s a commanded blessing that comes with that …”


  431. Hey Lee, at least Pierce helps us out…he mentions the parallel between the New Age and his teaching…. thanks! We’d have gotten there sooner or later, but hey thanks for pointing us in the right direction! :)

  432. Craig, thanks again!

    I’m so thankful for all the Bereans on this site!
    Thank you God for Your Body at work!

  433. Because of the complexity of the English language some words have more than one meaning. Hate is one of them.
    The opposite of love in not hate but contempt, careless.
    Hate can mean less favored in one of its context
    Hate can mean reject as in rejecting sin or holding it in contempt because of its destroying power.
    Love the kind of love I understand is given your life one for another. Caring, giving expecting no return.
    What does God hate and what stirs His wrath ? Sin in all its forms and yet God restrains His wrath for wrath destroys.
    God can be both kind and merciful, yet toward His enemies brutal.

  434. DL,

    I think these teachers do this for the christians who do have some bible knowledge. I’ve heard it said from a pulpit, “And for you people who love to do bible studies and word searches …” and then he went on to quote a scripture but pulled it out of context to fit into what he was trying to teach …… !!!!!!!

    So, it seems to me, that they mock the ones who are trying to stay in the word, and say stuff such as, “Oh sure it seems new-agey, you people who love your old stuffy word, but we know better and we’re telling you it is not truly new-agey.”

    Twisting scriptures/pulling them out of context, use-of-new-age-words-slightly-sanitized-to-trick-the-christian, group mentality by belittling/mocking those who still like to read the word, REIGNS in these conferences and churches.

    And if you sit under it long enough, you do start to ‘shut up’ and give in to the peer pressure. It is just human nature. And I speak from experience :(

  435. Nicole Sep 29th 2012

    Hi Lee, and all,

    Vibration is once again a new age teaching. It started years ago, decades ago, but then came back into teachings in the 80’s and 90’s. When I got my license back in 91 , EVERYTHING had a vibratory sound.

    New Agers started sounding off w/ the tuning forks, hence, came massage therapists and even some chiropractors used it. That also rang in literally the brass bells of the monks and the hindus/ eastern phylosophy. Chrystals and the gemstones were also high intenstiy of sound and “atuning w/ the universe”

    It is amazing the GREEN Churches, now Emergent Churches that are coming forth and if you want to have your mind blown and expanded a little bit more, The originator of the Emergent Church is associated w/ being the “spiritual advisor to obama”.

    All this is leading back into one world religion and how all these churches and “streams” are now unifying, where as before they were seperate. Some might not say they are “unifying” but they are.

    Ed Young, Jr. is really big in Dallas as is T.D. Jakes and though I don’t live there, I do know that now that Glen Beck lives there, these folks are even “uniting w’/ good ol’ Glen, claiming he is ONE OF US / CHRISTIAN” as they say.

    Joan, I don’t think anyone said to bow down to Holy Spirit. Did they?

    And yes, sometimes we do have to throw out everything in order for the Lord to remold us. At least lay it down unto the Lord. MIXTURE IS MIXTURE and truly the Holy Spirit will teach us. And yes, I believe that there will be SOME that will be Pastors, SOME, Teachers, SOME, EVANGELISTS, SOME Prophets, SomeApostles. But that is God’s decision and man has started playing God. and some believe they are becoming gods. Also, mormons believe that they are little gods and therefore that is a false teaching but also an alignment w/ many domnion theologists as is new agers.

    DL. Glad you are learning and to all that are involved in this , thank you. It is good to be involved in something that we all long to have learned. TRUTH. And doing what the Lord really did call us to do.

    Equip the Saints to do the work.

  436. Nicole Sep 29th 2012

    I received this today. I classify it as Junk Mail, but I want to show you “good intentions” mixed w/ lots of Dominion theology and also new age.

    Once again, this is the desire for dominion theology. To be part of the NATION and White House but also to be in every church as “the leaders” that one must come to . This is a movement. A Christian Movement just like the New Age Movement , Emergent Movement, Word of Faith Movement . Look up what these folks are truly teaching. It is Amazing how far they are taking out of context the word of God.

    Not only that but there is the “movement” that gay rights, gay marriage and gay Christianity is o.k and it has been proven that and shown last week when a Pastor in a Christian Church wed his son and his son in law and he is preaching homosexuality is o.k. in the eyes of God.

    And folks, believe me, there are many that are starting to believe it. Don’t think they aren’t.

    Bringing this all back to B. Johnson. I sat at one of his conferences w/ P. King and Jill Austin as they proclaimed “GOD LOVES YOU JUST THE WAY YOU ARE” to several homosexuals that decided that they wanted to go to IHOP and get involved in the IHOP SENSATION. They did not teach repentence .

    Well its once again time to start fixing dinner. I will probably check out emails tomorrow or over the weekend. And be back on here later tonight, if a storm (much needed) doesn’t come in tonight. YEA, tomorrow we are to receive much rain. I hope.!!!!! Bad though , as far as mosquitos.

  437. Nicole Sep 29th 2012

    opps here is the prayer of National from dominion website —— I also received another one that said “meditate on this prayer and repeat it several times daily”

    That is new age also and contemplative prayer and possitve words going out into the UNIVERSE.

    All this Joel Osteen is preaching as others are too.


    Today started a 40 day prayer and fasting here in the states. Texas is really big into this because Cindy Jacobs is from San Antonio and it is all over the place in Texas and throughout the country.


    America on Her Knees
    Can you see it, America on her knees in repentance and prayer; changing her destructive course and turning back to the God who once made her great? We believe with God all things are possible. And, we do believe that if God’s leaders and His people will unite in humility, in repentance, and in prayer that we will see everything change, from the Pulpit, to the Pew, to the Multitudes!

    Daily Prayer
    Today, we are uniting with other prayer initiatives across our nation to help bring God’s people together in focused prayer. We are asking those of you who have taken the 12 O’Clock Prayer Challenge to continue to pray from the Top 5 Prayer Guide at noon each day, and in addition add the following Daily Prayer Alerts recently published in the October issue of Charisma Magazine. Each day includes a link with more details to help you pray for the specific area. Each Monday through October 29th we plan to send you a new list for the upcoming week. Thank you for uniting with us in prayer!

    Together, We Can Change a Nation,
    Darrel and Cindy deVille

    Week One of 40 Days Of Prayer Focus
    To get these Charisma Prayer Alerts sent daily to your email click here.
    Click here to see a sample of the daily alerts the send to you.

    Day 1 – Sept 28th: Prophetic Church

    Day 2 – Sept 29th: Immigration

    Day 3 – Sept 30th: Government

    Day 4 – Oct 1st: Abortion

    Day 5 – Oct 2nd: Family

    Day 6 – Oct 3rd: Justice

    Day 7 – Oct 4th: Terrorism

    Day 8 – Oct 5th: National Security

    Day 9 – Oct 6th: Church Unity

    Day 10 – Oct 6th: Waiting on God

    You can also recieve these Prayer alearts daily on your smartphone
    • Download the app to your smartphone and go to PRAYER tab.
    • Text Charisma to 24587 – download the Charisma News Mobile App

    What is God Saying to America
    What’s God seeing & saying? See a Biblical Perspective of how God deals with nations in great sin? Does God still judge nations?

    What’s Happened & What’s Coming? See a revealing Prophetic Sequence. What’s happened & what’s to come? What is God’s Solution, and what is God saying His Leaders & Church must do?

    Click Here to View Videos

    Will You Help Us
    Reach the Nation?
    We are believing God for 5000 Partners. Will you join us!
    Click Here to start today or learn more.

    Take the 12 O’Clock Prayer Challenge and Help Bring America to her knees in the Greatest Awakening ever seen!
    Click Here to start today or learn more.

    Calling Pastors
    God wants to bring a Great Awakening to America and it must begin with the Leaders in God’s House, with repentance and prayer, from the Pulpits, to the Pew, to the Multitudes.

    Click here to start today or learn more.

  438. Yes, Nicole, your last two posts bring us straight back to Bill and Beni Johnson ….

    as Beni did wrote on her ‘life and wellness’ blog:

    I was talking with Ray Hughes the other day and was telling him about using a 528 HZ tuning fork as a prophetic act. Someone told me that this tuning fork is called the tuning fork of LOVE. Google it. Ray told me that science has said that this fork is the sound that holds earth. That blew me away!!

    And, just two weeks ago I sat with a “new guy” in our church … along with a group of us … listening to the new guy tell how, “You don’t slam homosexuals with words like, ‘you’re going to hell’. That does no good. God is love. And the gospel is GOOD NEWS.”

    Where did this guy come from? Bethel. Our churches are inundated. And I hear there are many of them in in our local very large well known Presbyterian church, so its not just the charismatic churches only … at least in LA.

  439. Hi Nicole,

    Thanks for the info! No worries or hurry on the emails. I enjoy so much what you post here!

    I won’t be around much, if at all, after this evening, for the weekend. So, if Andrew shuts this thread down… cya on the other side! LOL

    Thank you, sincerely, to all of you..it’s been so eye-opening, refreshing and YES challenging! As I say, I haven’t actually been involved in any of the stupidity of the latest Charismatic (searching for a “nice” word to call it LOL) but I know that I need to educate myself on it anyway. I’ve been watching YOUTubes and reading and reading and READING. I am still a little numb but my eyes are definitely open. Can I say that 20 years ago many of these names didn’t exist. However, the few that I AM familiar with have gone from BAD to much, much, WORSE!

    I publicly renounce and repent of all and any involvement that I had knowingly, and unknowingly.

    Andrew I just started to read your book, very GOOD! I have seen your YouTube videos and the book advertised but to tell you the honest truth? When I see a book advertised or something being bought and sold from ministry, I am instantly turned off to it.

    I have MUCH to repent of. Much more to learn and much, more, of a journey to go on.

    If I don’t interact with any of you again.. may I take a time to say heart-felt thank you to all of you my brothers and sisters that are bravely standing for truth, and not compromising. It’s so wonderful to see unity around TRUTH. Not unity at all costs.

  440. DeWayne Sep 29th 2012

    Simon… languages of man
    That is a good point, and your explanation few would disagree, relating to God and His ways such as love and hate.
    I was thinking more along the line of mans tendency to add words, like Millennium Temple, Golden Age, Lion laying down with the Lamb, especially when found nowhere in the bible. Makes the task of the yet immature or babe in the Lord rather difficult, when someone mature tells them they must prove everything by validating it with what is (in) the bible.

  441. blessings on you DL. You ended with, “…unity around TRUTH. Not unity at all costs” This is a True statement as found in 1 John 1:3 —

    “The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.”

    When we accept what the Apostles saw and wrote of, we then have true fellowship with one another. And we then have True Fellowship with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.

    Peace and boldness for these last days, to all who love the Word.

  442. DeWayne Sep 29th 2012

    DL… Lord bless

  443. Nicole Sep 29th 2012

    I love it when I go to a website that I have yet to read “the today” things that have been posted. This came from Apprising Ministries. And it is BY CHARLES SPURGEON.

    May God Bless you All and I will be in touch DL and anyothers that want to e-mail. HEY, IT IS RAINING. !!!YEA :-)

    For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12 ESV)

    To promulgate a dry creed, and go over certain doctrines, and expound and enforce them logically, but never to upbraid them for their sins, never to tell them of their danger, never invite them to a Savior with tears and entreaties – what a powerless work this is! We want laborers, not loiterers.

    Now, see what the laborer brings with him. It is a sickle. His communications with the corn are sharp and cutting. He cuts right through, cuts the corn down, and casts it on the ground.

    The man whom God means to be a laborer in His harvest must not come with delicate words and flattering doctrines concerning the dignity of human nature and the excellence of self-help and of earnest endeavors to rectify our lapsed condition and the like.

    Such mealymouthedness may God curse, for it is the curse of this age. The honest preacher calls a sin a sin and a spade a spade and says to men, ‘You are ruining yourselves; while you reject Christ you are living on the borders of Hell, and ere long you will be lost to all eternity.

    There shall be no mincing of the matter; you must escape from the wrath to come by faith in Jesus or be driven forever from God’s presence and from all hope of joy.’ The preacher must make his sermons cut. Our sickle is made on purpose to cut.

    The Gospel is intended to wound the conscience and go right through to the heart, with the design of separating the soul from sin and self, as the corn is divided from the soil.1

    Charles Spurgeon

  444. OOOh that was such a fantastic word from Charles Spurgeon, hate to post this garbage below. I had never heard of Bill Johnson and his wife, so for the first time, today, I went on the church’s website. I found this posted on Beni Johnson’s page.
    I was so angry. Can you image referring to your grandchild as a “mystic”????? Dear Lord, Jesus..please help these dear children!



    We have eight grandchildren. I really love learning from them. One of our granddaughters, Selah, is a mystic. What I mean by that is that she sees into the spirit realm and she lives there; that is her life. We have some amazing stories from her. I would like to share with you what Selah saw about 2009.

    Selah loves to dance, and when she dances, she brings heaven to earth. She uses dance as a way of intercession and warfare sometimes. She was dancing in one of our Friday night services and it was a mix between ballet, hip hop and gymnastics. When she was dancing, she was having a vision at the same time. All of a sudden, she began laughing hysterically out of control and rolling around on the floor. Her mom had to take her out of the service when worship ended because she was the only one laughing.

    After she calmed down, her mom asked her what had happened. Selah said, “I was dancing, and I saw these gifts beginning to fall all over the building. God told me what was inside two of the gifts. One was the gift of peace and the other was the gift of not being afraid. Then, there was one gift that was wrapped in brown with a red ribbon and it had a big S on it. I knew that was special for me and I opened my box and it was the gift of laughter! ” Selah then rolled over and drew a picture of the two gifts and a person lying down and holding a sign up that said, “Laughing 2009.”

    After this happened, my son called me and told me her vision. I absolutely loved it. I don’t know about you, but I will take that! I will take those three things for 2009: peace, fearlessness and laughter! Let’s dive into the heart of the Father for this year. Laughter for 2009!


  445. Sorry for slow reply my friends! Remarkably I was visiting our departed Brother Wilkensons downtown New York Church this week and just got into my hotel room to catch up.
    Re: my comments about the second root cause the revival of revival of mystisism being the departure from the bibilcal gospel that every grace and blessing as well as our relationship with God being ENTIRELY based on faith iin Jesus death alone plus nothing from start to finish. “The righteous shall live by faith.” when well meaning people believe and teach that salavation and the Christian life is started by the righteousness of God by faith in Jesus death alone BUT IT IS CONTINUED by behavior modification, performance and self effort THEY HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE AND HAVE DEPARTED FROM THE GOSPEL! The Bible clearly teaches that we start by faith in the cross plus nothing , continue by faith in the cross plus nothing and end by faith in the cross plus nothing. When the church departed from this ( faith from first to last) biblical gospel she opened up pandoras box. Paul said, ” after starting by faith are you now going to finish by law ( by self effort behavior and performance modification)?
    When the church adds self effort behavior and performance modification to the gospel of faith she then begins to depart from Christ Himself. (Paul
    Taught in Galations that to do this was to loose connection with the Head). When the church looses connection with Christ through self effort she is now in dangerous deceptive territory because having lost connection with Christ she looses her only defense against deception. From self effort she always falls prey to EVERY OTHER DECEPTION. Thus the root of this current revival of mysticism is departing from the biblical gospel that clearly declares that salvation As well as every other gift, blessing and favor from God COMES TO US ENTIRELY THROUGH OUR CREDITED RIGHTEOUSNESS ALONE WHICH COMES TO US ONLY THROUGH FAITH ALONE IN JESUS DEATH PLUS NOTHING.
    Repentance to the self effort church gets redefined from ” changing our mind about how to get right right and stay right with God ( Greek metagnoia) to being redefined as “changing our behavior through self effort behavior modification ”
    Thus self effort bevior modification preaching is the second root of the nascent epidemic of mysticism .
    Repentance in the Bible by strict definition is NOT a change

  446. Sorry delete that last partial sentence.

  447. Hello to all–can anyone in a nutshell narrow down the difference between contemplative prayer and quiet time with the Lord? I have read things that equate them as the same.

    I have enjoyed the comments and feel this is all part of what God is doing right now–cleansing the temple. Come quickly, Lord Jesus, with your winnowing fork in hand!

    Thank you all. God bless.

  448. Wanda , obey Jesus and always do what the Holy Spirit wants you to do and The Father will keep you safe from what people who don’t listen to Him are into.

  449. Wanda – I can only agree with JeffM’s advice, listen to the Holy Spirit :-)

    When I have a question such as yours, I ask Him – sometimes I receive the answer directly, other times He will lead me to an explanation on a sound site.

    Here are two links to sites, where I used the search arguement ‘contemplative prayer':



    In His love,

  450. Thanks, and blessings, to all for their input :-)

    Good to see members of the Body of Christ together like this..

  451. Nicole Sep 29th 2012

    Thanks Roger and Jeff,

    I was about to send Wanda the same explaination w/ those websites and this one.

    Here is a simple explaination also of what it is.


  452. debylynne Sep 29th 2012

    lee said:
    “Twisting scriptures/pulling them out of context, use-of-new-age-words-slightly-sanitized-to-trick-the-christian, group mentality by belittling/mocking those who still like to read the word, REIGNS in these conferences and churches.

    And if you sit under it long enough, you do start to ‘shut up’ and give in to the peer pressure. It is just human nature. And I speak from experience :(”

    oh. my. goodness. yes.

    nicole, thank you so much for the word from charles spurgeon – i was just sitting here GRIEVING after reading some of the other things that are going on and thinking, LORD, HELP! and you posted the word from spurgeon and it BLESSED ME SO!!

    DL – that post from beni johnson just scares me to death – what are they exposing these children to??????????????????

    the LORD bless each of you – thank you for all that you have given and brought ‘to the table’ here. so much.

  453. One thing that I feel God won’t let me let go of: Since what we have sen thus far has been counetrfiet and because the existence of the counetrfiet THEIR IS ALWAYS THE REAL THING!
    O god and Father of our glorious Lord Jesus Christ- God of the Bible. Where are Thy great signs and wonders that You have done in past times? where is your Holy Spirits miracles in our generation? Where oh our great and Holy God is thy genuine spiritual awakenings that you have worked in wicked generations of past times? How long will you let your great name and your great gospel be slandered by the counterfeits weare seeing your enemies spread in our day? O God hear from heaven and vindicate your faithful elect who endured such ridicule and who have not bowed the knee to the false Jesus of the modern mystics. Give us again your Holy Spirit, His wonders, His gifts and His power to convict, save, heal and make men holy through Jesus Christ. O God forgive us for departing from your gospel of grace. forgive us for departing from your Holy Book. Restore your holy church in this hour we pray. In Jesus name alone do we plead. Amen ! amen! amen!

  454. Barry – you raise a very valid point, and I agree with your prayer :-)

    Wherever there is truth, there will be a satanic counterfeit – and it seems that the counterfeit is increasing..? which has led me for some while to believe, to understand, that satan is worried – the end of his ‘time’ is near.

    We find confirmation in scripture – false prophets, false christs, apostasy, every wind of doctrine, deception and delusion, as well as wars, rumours of wars, earthquakes in diverse places – all are a part of what must happen before Lord Jesus returns.

    I believe that all hear know, and can testify that God is still at work with miracles, and regeneration of individuals. We hear testimonies from China, Muslim countries, Israel, India, Africa – that people are receiving genuine revelations from God, and believing, repenting, submitting to Christ Jesus as their Saviour and as their Lord.

    I have no doubt that others posting here can also share of ‘miracles’, attributed to God, in the name of Christ Jesus, happening around them.

    All praise and glory to Him, Christ Jesus our risen Lord..

  455. Thank you so much for your input to my question–I will check out the websites you shared. Barry, I echo your prayer. Amen!

  456. Dear Lord, forgive us of our pride and apathy that has allowed men to call good, evil; and evil, good. We acknowledge that we have grown calloused to the daily deluge of sinful activity, degradation and speaking that has become the routine in American life, and we repent. Oh, how we truly repent! You are holy, Lord, and our sins are ever before us, in a wicked land, apostate, godless, and we turn away from the temptations, by Your forgiveness and Grace, by the Blood of Jesus.
    Reignite our love for purity and holiness, and create in us a will to follow You & initiate the changes in our society that will allow You to once again bless our beloved America. Awaken the Pastors and Christians of America to fall on their knees and repent of their sins, so that You can heal our land. Start with us who pray this prayer.

    We love You and adore You, precious Lord! Please come and set our country free that You will be honored and glorified in a true love for You, our King and our Lord! Your Will be done, on earth, and here in America, as it is in Heaven, in Jesus’ Name I pray~ Amen.

  457. Barry Koe Sep 29th 2012


    Don’t ever stop sounding the warnings. Sound it out even louder. clearer and more frequent. Many brethen need to be rescued from false teachings and practices. We join you in the rescue.

  458. Barry Koe Sep 29th 2012

    Craig CrossWise,
    I am with you on this. The correct term is ‘continuationist’ as opposed to cessationist as well as the unbiblical ‘health and wealth positive confession ‘ charismatic or hyper charismatic. Such continuationist theologians would include Wayne Grudem. Even Jim Cymbala of Brooklyn Tabernacle beleives firmly in the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit but strongly oppose the WOF charismatic teachings and practices. His book ‘Fresh Wind Fresh Fire” is good reading – no to claiming this and that or binding this or that and no postive confession. His emphasis is prayer prayer prayer.

  459. The heart of man desires to be in charge and rule everything however when God made man he made him as God’s servant in everything. The issue that needs to be settled who is boss whom are we obeying.
    It is this issue that hinders the things we seek.
    Is the emphasis presented an issue of having power over or is the issue do we submit under God.
    In a generation that has thrown out submission and accountability that is hard to teach and understand for in our heart lies this secret resentment of being told “no” and until this is brought to the cross blessing are withheld.

  460. Foolhardy Fred Sep 29th 2012

    It is also very important to point out that The Holy Spirit will only ever operate in accordance with the Word of God – The Bible.

    Consequently much of the ecumenical movement will be seen to be ridiculous when the belief systems of religions we are asked to accept is analyzed and assessed in accordance with His Word..

    This is what makes the revelation at sites such as this so absolutely startling in view of the respect we might reasonably expect to have for men like Billy Graham


  461. Foolhardy Fred Sep 29th 2012

    Youtube videos are available of this very disappointing nonsense for any who might find it helpful.

    Just Google Billy Graham and Robert Schuller Interview.

  462. Ibelieve Sep 29th 2012

    When I think of some of this stuff its good to know for reference and to be aware that it is out there.

    But to constantly dwell on the negative as some do it becomes more of a gossip/slandering thing. Once it has been stated why beat a dead horse to death?

    I know people who get so got up into this type of research that they become obsessed with it.

    Take the occult for instance. I know of people who spend more time trying to find out the latest demon that needs to be dealt with and then they have an unhealthy desire to know everything about the occult. All the ins and outs of the occult.

    I am not saying your not making a good point for those who need it, but trying to share what I have seen take place over the years.

    Some of this stuff becomes unhealthy for a person walking in the Spirit and there is a place and time to move on once you have understood the situation.

    Just thinking here, maybe this is what Andrew meant when he started the article. Things taking place of this nature is not something you want to spend your life dwelling on when there is so much more in the Spirit.

    I hope this came out right but do you kind of understand what I am saying here.

    Lord Bless,

  463. In a generation focused on the positive this is hard to understand. There is nothing positive in this world for all of this world runs after evil a thing that God hates. However if one places his pride and confidence in God he will be positive for he has learned that no matter what God always wins.

  464. Ibelieve Sep 29th 2012

    Once a problem has been pointed out is it necessary then to search the internet and try to find every little sin someone has committed?

    Some here are commenting on these individuals as though it brings them enjoyment to talk about it. Hey I found another web site that shows what is going on in their camp!!

    I think its sad and serious when we see so many of our brothers and sisters carried away into deception.

    16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

    17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

    Is it possible that any of us can fall short of His Glory?

  465. Is it possible that any of us can fall short of His Glory?
    That is the forgotten understanding all already have fallen
    and until we all acknowledge it our arrogance and pride continue to swell.
    For God saved us out of our fallen state, why then do we boast we are better than the world and one another?
    Until we come to the place that we can say without Christ I am nothing without Christ I can do nothing and conversely
    all things done without Christ is worth nothing do we understand the road to travel toward maturity.

  466. Hi there,

    It is encouraging to see a passion for the truth of His word among the Saints here.

    I was reading 1 Cor 16: which I think has a message for these challenging times…

    13 Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong.
    14 Do everything in love.
    15 You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the Lord’s people. I urge you, brothers and sisters,
    16 to submit to such people and to everyone who joins in the work and labors at it.
    17 I was glad when Stephanas, Fortunatus and Achaicus arrived, because they have supplied what was lacking from you.
    18 For they refreshed my spirit and yours also. Such men deserve recognition.

    Paul is urging fellowship in mutual submission with those who are laboring in Love in the power of the Spirit.

    This is all the more important in this late hour, I think the Holy Spirit left many of our systematic church activities some years back and we need to find refreshing pools of mutual fellowship in the desert that Western ‘Christianity’ has largely become.

    Such fellowship in the truth of His word is precious and genuine unity is without contention.

    Those who enjoy this are childlike in faith and open to His Word as they read the scriptures.

    This is so different than the razzmatazz that passes off as spirituality so commonplace today.

    Sitting at His feet we find communion and strength to do what we are enabled to see the Father doing.

    Blessings to you all, may this rich fellowship be our portion, may His body arise out of the dust and dismay, an army of the faithful together in Him.

    Love you all,

    Carl Emerson.

  467. Ibelieve Sep 29th 2012

    Good point.

    The road to maturity is very narrow and few there be that find it.

  468. Sheeja John Sep 29th 2012

    Only YAHWEH can open the eyes that are blind and the ears that are deaf and grant repentance to a soul living in error. All effort on the part of human is useless and worthless if YAHWEH is not in it. The walk with God is a personal walk. Scripture declares:
    ‘The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him. And He will show them His covenant.’ – Ps. 25:14.
    Yes, there are times when YAHWEH require one to act, and there are things that YAHWEH expect one to change; but His wisdom also guides one to discern the ‘when’ and the ‘what’. Those who have been in His presence continuously and has been taught of Him has learned to be quiet and peaceful in His love.

  469. Knowledge puffs up love builds up
    In a world were academics is then answer to everything, were knowledge holds the key to understanding, it is hard for us to know that God is the key to understanding and God calls our knowledge foolishness.
    And so we go round and round trying to understand; being led to the same circumstances to teach us we really don’t know what we are talking about.
    You see before our eyes we believe we are good because we know something, we know because we have experienced God and so we hold unto this and boast not knowing what God has allowed is but a drop in the bucket. If we will let go of what we know and pursue God. I for one am not impressed by what I read, it reminds me of children always getting dad’s attention by what they know rather what a Father wants children that are their to enjoy their father

  470. Barry Koe,

    I’ve heard of Cymbala, but I don’t have any of his material. I have and quote from Grudem’s Systematic Theology. Gordon Fee is another continuationist. His commentary on 1 Corinthians (The First Epistle to the Corinthians – NICNT) is excellent. I wanted to quote from it earlier (as used in one of my articles) and I’ll use this opportunity now.

    Regarding 1 Cor 12:3, Fee notes that the phrase “no one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit” [NIV, 1984] is not a definitive way of testing the spirits as “it would seem possible for anyone to say these words at will“:

    “The presence of the Spirit in power and gifts makes it easy for God’s people to think of the power and gifts as the real evidence of the Spirit’s presence. Not so for Paul. The ultimate criterion of the Spirit’s activity is the exaltation of Jesus as Lord. Whatever takes away from that, even if they be legitimate expressions of the Spirit, begins to move away from Christ to a more pagan fascination with spiritual activity as an end in itself.”

    I’m not sure I understand your point by the way in which you’ve compared cessationism with continuationist. If one is not a cessationist, then one is a continuationist (although there are degrees in that stance). At this point, I call myself a ‘cautious continuationist’. I don’t deny the gifts, as I cannot read the “perfect” (teleion) in 1 Cor 13:10 [and the as closing the canon; I see it as the 2nd coming. However, my current stance, as I’ve stated elsewhere is that I am in a sort of mediated position believing it’s the Spirit who gives to each one “just as He determines” [12:11; NIV 1984] on an individual and case by case basis. And, further, my opinion is that the gifts are specifically used to further the Gospel more than anything else, especially in situations where there is a language or cultural gap.

  471. Sorry, disregard the “[and the” in the above (it’s hard to edit comments in these small boxes).

  472. Ibelieve Sep 29th 2012

    I think some people use the bible to find excuses for the way they live. If you can find a proof text and alienate it from others then you can justify what your doing at least in mens eyes.

    God is not mocked or fooled for whatever a man sows that is what he will reap.

    The Bible was not given so we can find loopholes to justify any sin.

  473. Ibelieve Sep 29th 2012

    I was thinking after reading so many views and opinions in the comments that the Bible is limited in what it shows to mankind.

    In other words we do not have a giant list of dos and don’ts if we did the NT would be a new list of laws.

    I think its by the Spirit that you can know what is the mind of God, while some add things to the Bible and they want to make it look like the Lord is moving in their ministry so they open doors that were never meant to be opened.

    Jesus spoke to all of us in parables. God has chosen some men to salvation and others will perish because they cannot hear.

    In some ways this is a scary thought but it is also something to be thankful for and that is if you can see and hear.

  474. At the fall of man, man was persuaded that God was not trustworthy, that the way of knowledge of good and evil was better than God’s, that pleasing self was better than pleasing God and disobedience was better than obedience.
    This describes the heart of man, it is the wise that learn to disregard its intend and resists it it is the foolish that listen to it and follow it.
    Society’s understanding of who man is follows the understanding of knowledge, so to believe who man is; according to this world is that man is god, yet in reality he is only a god to himself and everyone else see him as a foll for they see through his folly.
    You see sin always looks good in our eyes, yet in the end it makes us to be a fool.
    Salvation is not about what I know, but whom I know. For if salvation is based on what I know then we are not yet truly saved. Deception comes as it always does for temptation to sin is always present, when we have knowledge we will eventually fall into the deception, but he who knows Christ will by the deception be set free.
    Therefore it is who knows Christ that will be saved not him who has knowledge.

  475. Song of Solomon 2:15

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    15 [My heart was touched and I fervently sang to him my desire] Take for us the foxes, the [a]little foxes that spoil the vineyards [of our love], for our vineyards are in blossom.

    Footnotes:a.Song of Solomon 2:15 What is my greatest concern, the thing about which most of all I want Christ’s help? When He asks to hear my voice, what do I tell Him?

  476. Foolhardy Fred Sep 29th 2012

    I do regret that some people seem to think I am constantly dwelling on the negative. Unfortunately I have become aware of an absolute tsunami of this nonsense which has invaded and perverted the church. Consequently I have an extremely heavy burden about trying to see some receive the truth and escape the coming judgement of God.

    I am personally aware of this stuff, the reference to internet sites is merely an attempt to substantiate the shocking factual information I am attempting to provide to those who might be unaware of what is going on.

    It seems to me that many people would prefer to go to hell quietly that make a fuss standing for biblical righteousness. I am saddened by this.

    It began for me in 1979 when a Pastor at that time could see nothing wrong with having people swear an oath of allegiance before God during a meeting that they would follow him whatever he said or did. I was then warned by Godly senior Pastors of what was to come. The intensity and pace with which this occultic new age invasion has occurred has been a real eye opener to me. Even more shocking however has been the apparent willingness of so many people I had considered to be solid christians who were prepared to accept this rubbish without even raising an eyelid. They were following anointed ones without question and had become completely impervious to the Word of God.

    Consequently I have been very faithful to God in attempting to expose this filth to the absolute best of my ability.

    The Watchman is responsible for passing on the truth. What people do with the truth is entirely their responsibility.

    Faithfulness to His Word is what God requires above all else. Absolutely nothing else will cut it with God on the judgement day.

    False faith is NO faith at all.

    It is impossible to KNOW Christ without knowing, honouring and obeying HIS WORD.

  477. Exodus 19:16-20

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    16 On the morning of the third day, there was thunder, lightning and a thick cloud on the mountain. Then a shofar blast sounded so loudly that all the people in the camp trembled. 17 Moshe brought the people out of the camp to meet God; they stood near the base of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was enveloped in smoke, because Adonai descended onto it in fire — its smoke went up like the smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain shook violently. 19 As the sound of the shofar grew louder and louder, Moshe spoke; and God answered him with a voice.

    20 Adonai came down onto Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; then Adonai called Moshe to the top of the mountain; and Moshe went up.

  478. JeffM,

    The Song of Solomon/Songs is quite simply about romantic love. It is not to be allegorized as Christ and the Church. There is way too much explicit language to get around [4:5; 8:5-7]. This allegorizing leads to a ‘Jesus is my boyfriend’ mentality despite Mike Bickle’s ‘words of warning’. (And Misty Edwards lyrics do not help in this regard.)

    The following article goes into the Jewish roots of allegorizing the SoS with the final conclusion:

    There is, therefore, no compelling historical reason
    from early Jewish and early medieval interpretation for continuing
    allegorization of the Song today.


  479. Ibelieve Sep 29th 2012

    I was in no way referring to you brother. I was making a point about the whole scenario being played out.

    I have personally been very blessed by your comments.

    I am sorry if there has been any confusion in my comments. I am not the best writer when it comes to commenting as I have many thoughts in by head and trying to put them on paper I am learning is an art.

    Please forgive me if it appeared I was referring to your comments I was actually agreeing with what you said, only looking on the other side of the coin that some can run off on a tangent with any subject.

    In Him,

  480. Ibelieve Sep 29th 2012

    Sorry, that was thoughts in “My” head

  481. Fred I agree with you, but we can warn all we want but a hardness has come upon those that disobey. It seems that they now enjoy the things my father rebuked us for for in their understanding they deny the sovereignty of God, the ability of God to squash our salvation, and have learned how to please self rather than God. They have become haters of those who teach the truth. All of what is discussed in here had already begun in the 60’s maybe earlier and some of its works was already evident in the 70’s. A call for repentance was given but I believe ignored. Now the chickens have come home to roost and the consequences of disobedience has fallen on our laps. In reality many of us are in spiritual pain for we don’t know what has happened it seems God has withdrawn his presence and that for me is hard to bear.
    There is really nothing we can do but wait it out and submit to God’s discipline so that when the wrath of God falls on this world we will be saved by His discipline now.
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom therefore choose the fear of the Lord

  482. Craig CrossWise, you must be feeling pretty sure of yourself to think you can accuse me of leading people to be “gay” on Jesus, and associating my post with what Mike Bickle teaches. You talk like you think your opinion has the authority of the written word.
    I always take note of who tells me not to do what The Father told me to do. And it is too late to have an equal discussion about the meaning of the scripture.

  483. Yup the kind of response I get at the gas bar when people can’t get what the want

  484. JeffM,

    You’ve misunderstood the intention of my comment. I did not accuse you of what you’ve just accused me of. I merely stated my position based on fact providing an article to back up my assertion. I don’t expect all to agree with my position; but, I will state it as clearly as I feel is necessary. So, no, I don’t think a man is “gay” if he adheres to an allegorical interpretation of the SoS. I think he – or a she if a woman adheres to such an interpretation – is incorrect.

    However, I’ve seen enough accounts of individuals who’ve read the Bickle-led SoS “Bridal Paradigm” to know that both male and females have been led to confusion on this. And, I have a Misty Edwards cd which goes too far in the lyrics in this regard.

    I just skimmed through this well-researched article which arrives at the same conclusion:


    In part of his conclusion he writes:

    In a time when the biblical mandate of marriage being between one man and one woman as well as the clear message of sexual union taking place only in the bounds of marriage is increasingly under fire, a literal interpretation of the Song of Solomon is sorely needed. Iain Provan rightly notes “sexual activity is a blessing from God that is supposed to symbolize in a profound way self-giving in the male-female relationship.” The modern perspective of sexual encounters outside the marital relationship and the increasing support for same-sex marriage stands in stark juxtaposition to the literal interpretation of the Song of Solomon and its beautiful depiction of a man and a woman yearning for one another and the day when they will be united not just in holy matrimony but through sexual union.

  485. I should add: yes, we are the bride of Christ metaphorically</b; HOWEVER, in a collective sense – not individually. This is the danger of the allegorical interpretation. I’m not suggesting you, JeffM, are thinking you are the bride of Christ individually.

  486. Sorry, messed up the tag above; only the term “metaphorically” was meant to be bolded (and italicized).

  487. Please, please: does anyone know of a good place to fellowship in REDDING???
    I have gone there many times, and have seen heresy there that no one on this list has mentioned. Generally I do not go to church because there is no place to go.
    Bethel is raising up false prophets as fast as they can.
    It is so hard for me to go to Bethel: the first time I did I literally left the church in an ambulance.
    But I would like to be able to fellowship with Christians who are not part of the great compromise, here in Redding. I would appreciate feedback: ahoovahyah at gmail dot com. Help please. This thread has spoken of Bethel church, just down the road from where I live. But I am pretty much alone, limited to listening to the free sermons by such people as Ravenhill. Thank you very kindly.

  488. mary kay wyman Sep 29th 2012

    Why is Bill Johnston so on about supporting Israel? I think he is a secret Tea Party Republican with their intent to have God do want they want him to.
    God left Israel to fight for themselves and loose battles without God’s support when they choose to go it alone…after the killing of Jesus by the Romans allowed by the jewish High Priests, the Jews were obliterated from the Holy Land from the 1st century until 1948. God isn’t on the side of the Jews, he isn’t on any side. If you abide in him, which hardly any of us can do consistently, he leads and heals. He is Jesus, my friend my saviour but I do nothing except through him.
    God has always let natural consequence occur with the Jews except where there is salvation and honest commitment to him. This must be so easy for converted Jews as they have such knowledge of God as Jesus did through the OLD Testament.
    I was so disappointed to hear his political agenda spoken from the pulpit, as he is an amazing speaker… but somehow his teachings and his wife and son leave me uncomfortable.

  489. Barry Koe Sep 29th 2012

    For that matter even a cessationist comes in various degrees. I guess there are really no strict cessationist as they believe God still heals and miracles still do happen and prays accordingly. and God works according to his marvellous grace and sovereign will. I do not know of any ‘cessationist’ that will not pray for a person’s healing even though he believes apostolic gift may have ceased or diminished.
    I frequently refer myself as a continuationist and I agree that too differs in degree between people but at least it should be enough to distinguish myself from the WOF health wealth charismatic (or Kennethism ) esp those of the Elijah list.
    I recommend you read Jim Cymbala’s Fresh Wind Fresh Fire book.I don’t think the Elijah list people will like him.

  490. cessationist is a reaction to the misuse of the gifts and false prophets and teachers within the reformation churches not a denial of the gifts but an explanation why they stopped (especially in the rationalazation period of history)
    It may be a reaction gone to far but it has kept many from being caught up in deception.
    However the mindset of testing everything out before acceptance is a wise thing.

  491. Andrew, i have a friend who says “An offended or hurt Christian with a Scripture can be dangerous” and that is truth. “Blasphemy” is something slanderous and/or injurious to one’s good name. As a reminder- the following Scripture is for those who have had many tongues wagging against them:
    Matthew 5:11-12 (NASB)
    11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

  492. Barry,

    I may have to investigate Cymbala’s book at some point.

  493. Nicole Sep 29th 2012

    Wanda and others that are interested ,

    here is a run down article from HERESCOPE (very good website) that has a run down of what is going on from Bethel to IHOP and so many other “streams” that are unifying and that are in groups to churches.

    This has become VERY POPULAR and is spreading all throughout ALL CHURCHES. IT is no longer just charasmatic or Pentecostal. I went to an Episcopalian Church recently and boy oh boy from music to “be still” and “hear the voice of God” it was all over the place. And that has been carried into many United Methodist Churches. So, it is really spreading.

    Contemplative or Listening Prayer & Psalm 46:10

    Passion 2012

    After reading Ephesians 1:15-23 (lectio divina, i.e. Latin for reading sacred things) at the Passion 2012 conference, and while standing on stage with the other keynote speakers beneath a giant screen reading Jesus, speak to me,
    Beth Moore tells the audience:

    Without any comment please, let’s pause and be still,
    and ask Jesus to speak His word to us.

    Held in Atlanta, GA, last January 1-3, at the Georgia Dome, and attended by over 42,000 college age youth, one can observe Lecrae (a converted rap and Hip Hop artist), Francis Chan, Louie Giglio and John Piper, along with thousands of youth, participating in the mystical practice of contemplative or “listening” prayer at Moore’s behest, and this despite the fact that Scripture provides no instruction or any illustration for engaging in such a “spiritual” activity.[1]

    By Pastor Larry DeBruyn

    “Be still, and know that I am God . . .” (Psalm 46:10)

    Those promoting contemplative or “listening” prayer refer to this Scripture as a biblical endorsement for pursuing this spiritual discipline. As a precondition for experiencing Soul-to-soul communication from God, contemplative Christians advocate cultivating quietude for the purpose of creating a spiritual tabula rasa (i.e., Latin for blank slate) in which personal communication from God can be received. Influential Christian leaders and spiritual directors encourage listening prayer (praying without words) as a means to experience ”God’s guidance in everyday life.” At face value, Psalm 46 verse 10 appears to endorse this increasingly popular but ancient and mystical way to pray.

    A major Christian magazine once devoted a full page advertisement promoting a DVD titled “Be Still.”[2] The DVD case bears the inscription of Psalm 46:10 and a promotion which reads, ”In Today’s Fast-Paced, Hectic Life, Be Still Is an Important Tool that Keeps You in Touch with Yourself, Your Family and God.”[3] The magazine’s advertisement of the DVD stated:

    BE STILL… demonstrates how contemplative, or ‘listening,’ prayer can be be a vital way to find peace in the midst of a frenzied, fast-paced, modern world. BE STILL examines the importance of silence and reflective prayer as a way to receive God’s guidance in everyday life. BE STILL… features a useful ‘how to’ section that shows how contemplative prayer can be used to return to a more simple life and reaffirm that which is truly important.[4]

    As advocated by some of today’s most notable Christian communicators, what should Bible believers think about this DVD advocating contemplative prayer?

    Bible Interpretation 101 teaches that every text without a context is pretext. Extracting Psalm 46:10 to be an endorsement of meditative-listening prayer is just such a pretext. Here’s why.

    First, the injunction to “Be still” must be understood in the milieu it was uttered. The Psalmist addressed a cosmos in crisis. The crisis imperiled the creation (vv. 1-3); threatened the city (vv. 4-7); and besieged the country (vv. 8-11). In the crisis with their world falling apart, the people were afraid (v. 2).

    Second, the verb “Be still” (Hebrew, rapah) is used 46 times in the Old Testament with meanings everywhere from describing laziness to ordering relaxation. Though the majority of versions translate the injunction “Be still”, other meanings are “Cease striving ” (NASB), “Be quiet” (NCV), “Desist” (Young’s), or “Calm down” (CEV). In no biblical usage or context does the Hebrew verb enjoin God’s people to meditate or practice contemplative or listening prayer. Rather, believers are to rest and trust in God.

    Third, verse 10 contains two co-ordinate imperatives, with the emphasis being on the second command, to “know that I am God,” not the first, to “Be still.” With the first imperative functioning as an adverb, the verse might read, “Calmly (or quietly) know that I am God….”[5] Thus by their focusing upon the initial command, to Be still, comtemplative spiritualists ignore the greater command, and that is, to know that I am God.

    The command “know” primarily means, “to know by observing and reflecting (thinking)….”[6] As such, believers are encouraged to find comfort of soul by reflecting upon the saving works that God has both performed and promised. The meditation the psalm envisions is therefore objective, not subjective. “Be still” does not call persons to induce within their consciousness a wordless void or incubator in which state a mystical experience or word can be hatched. The cognitive command to “know” cancels that notion. In the light of God’s mighty works and providence, the psalm exhorts believers to reverence Him. As the prophet Habakkuk wrote, “…the Lord is in His holy temple. Let all the earth be silent before Him” (Habakkuk 2:20).

    Fourth, the command to “Be still” (v. 10) is specifically addressed to the survivors of a war torn nation, people that on all sides continued to feel threatened. To those scared to death by what was going on all around them (v. 2), the sovereign Lord encourages them to stop their trembling. As one commentator observed, “In this explosive context, ‘be still’ is not an invitation to tranquil meditation but a command to allow God to be God, to do his work of abolishing the weapons of war.”[7]

    And finally, in the third section the Psalmist looks forward to a new order when God will impose his peace plan upon the world (See Isaiah 2:4.). As He will have ended conflicts and destroyed the weapons of war (vv. 8-9), the Lord affirms that in the coming kingdom age he “will be exalted among the nations” (v. 10). In view of this prospect, the sovereign Lord encourages his covenant people to, “Be still, and know that I am God….” In the end, the sovereign God will defeat war and end terrorism.

    There resides a potential danger in mystical practices. It is this: In their attempt to journey into an altered state of consciousness, contemplative meditators may forget that God is the object and they are the subjects. As the theologian Warfield noted almost a century ago, “The history of mysticism only too clearly shows that he who begins by seeking God within himself may end by confusing himself with God.”[8] Thus by fixating upon the secondary imperative “Be still,” contemplators may, like eastern mystics and New Age devotees, forget they are not God!

    A friend of mine, devoted to the pursuit and practice of alternative spirituality for some of his adult life, related how one New Age class adapted this verse for use. At each session’s beginning, participants were told to relax and say to themselves, “Be still and know (pause)… I am God.” Thus by using the psalmist’s words to affirm their own divinity, New Age practitioners turned God’s Word outside in and upside down!

    To those who misuse Psalm 46:10 to endorse contemplative or listening prayer I say, “Nice try!” In no sense does “Be still” call believers to cultivate quietude. One study Bible states, “This is not a call for ‘silent’ worship.”[9] Though on occasions Christians ought to retreat in solitude to read Scripture and pray, “be still” is not an injunction to practice the silence of listening prayer. Rather, in light of the prospect that the sovereign God will one day institute and enforce his peace plan in the world, the psalm calls believers to serenity of heart and to “know” when that peace comes, then God “will be exalted among the nations.”

    This article, originally authored six years ago,[10] is still current in light of Beth Moore’s call[11] to “be still and ask Jesus to speak His word to us” One website has succinctly summarized the significance of the Passion Movement:

    The Passion Movement, which held its first conference in 1997, continues to grow by leaps and bounds. Passion 2012 – a three-day event – concluded yesterday and attracted around 45,000 enthusiastic attendees to the Georgia Dome. For those like me who were not familiar with this huge event, here is a brief overview as well as a recap.

    The Passion Conferences are restricted to those between the ages of 18 and 25…. Louie Giglio is the founder and architect of the Passion Movement…. Giglio has assembled a team of speakers, and those who joined him in speaking at Passion 2012 included John Piper, Francis Chan, Beth Moore, and Christine Caine. Music is a HUGE part of the Passion Movement….[12]

    Another web commentator described Passion 2012 this way:

    Passion featured an interesting lineup of speakers such Francis Chan, Beth Moore and New Calvinist mentor John Piper. Not surpisingly the conference had a distinctive charismatic and even contemplative

  494. Nicole Be still and know has nothing to with pray but is basically saying shut up and know that I am God in other words God is and quiet capable of dealing with the situation so just shut and see what God will do.
    I have been a bible teacher for a long time, yet in the last years I have become more aware how people use scriptures to justify their point of view rather than allowing the scriptures to judge my point of view and so those who use scripture incorrectly end up loosing in the end

  495. Nicole Sep 29th 2012

    opps the rest got cut off.

    Music is a HUGE part of the Passion Movement….[12]

    And YES, Song of Solomon has been altered by these folks to a sexual encounter w/ the Lord Jesus Christ from BED CHAMBER to just HIM FEEDING GRAPES to the person. ( I will tell of another testimony of this) Sad thing is, These were true Christian Women of the Church that had been in the Church for decades !!!! I am talking middle aged to older seniors !!!!!!! Telling the younger women all about their experiences.!!!!– w/ the Lord. Most originally came from a Catholic Charismatic to Bethel to I HOP and from GWEN SHAW’S HANDMAIDENS groups.

    (Continued from up above)

    Another web commentator described Passion 2012 this way:

    Passion featured an interesting lineup of speakers such Francis Chan, Beth Moore and New Calvinist mentor John Piper. Not surpisingly the conference had a distinctive charismatic and even contemplative flair….[13]

    The Truth:

    To reiterate the spiritual dangers,

    A passive or empty mind will not remain an empty slate. Something, or someone, will fill it. Voided minds are permeable, suggestible, impressionable and malleable. Insatiably, they desire filling by something . . . anything. Hence, meditation serves as an open doorway into the world of the occult, a world of supernatural phenomena and forces…..

    Self-induced, mind-emptying and mind-altering disciplines/devices desensitize the Christian’s sensitivity to biblical reality as the mind abandons its defenses and letting go of restraints, no longer can discern truth from error…. To this end, entering an altered state of consciousness serves to anesthetize persons against discernment as they are overcome by a lax, apathetic and permissive state of mind. This happens in spite of the biblical call to be sober minded….

    The exact opposite of mind-numbing meditating is the rehearsing of God’s Word on one’s mind for edification, encouragement and strength. Scriptural meditation involves going over and over Scripture in one’s consciousness. In this activity, in one’s “right mind,” the Holy Spirit seals the eternal truths of God in the soil of the regenerate human soul thereby bringing the life of the Word of God to the inner man (2 Corinthians 2:16).[14]

  496. One way of knowing were someone has been influence by the empty mind or spirit listening mind is the lack of logic. The word of God says that God is a God of order, that the wisdom of God is open to reason, that we are commanded to think rightly.
    illogical understanding, understanding that doesn’t fit the word of God is either the result of the flesh or deception.
    Another way of telling; deception leads to the building of self-esteem and self importance while the logic of the scripture points to submission and servanthood in the fear of God.

  497. Is not one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit discernment so lacking in the western church and amongst christians?
    There are two gifts I pray for everyday while I remain here on earth and they are WISDOM and DISCERNMENT. For without asking them daily in prayer, I would have been misled, abused, and deceived by those masquerading as sheep in the Christian Church who are at the helm of so many movements such as Word of God.
    Cessionists have tried to impose on me that the gifts are no longer for christians, but those who do, have shown no respect for the gifts of the Holy Spirit due to lack of love and little encouragement.
    If I was to deny them, my walk with the Lord Jesus Christ would lead me back to error and confusion.
    Cessionists talk about discerrnment in the Christian Church regarding the many charlatans operating in the church.
    They have missed the point that discernment is a gift from Almighty God and comes from no one else.
    Please comment on this matter!
    In Christ’s service

  498. There is discernment by understanding the scriptures and weighing it against what is said and their is a discernment given by the spirit a knowing something is off even before the person has said or done anything.
    It is a useless thing to argue with someone who has not yet experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit and yet their criticism can be beneficial for we are all without error and can stand some correction.
    There is a failure to test by the scriptures wisely and also a failure to heed those internal warnings.
    As always when we try to prove ourselves right the opposite side will shut their ears to what we have to say and so we loose, if however I take the opposite approach and share wisely at the right time understanding will come and they grow.

  499. DeWayne Sep 30th 2012

    May i insert a word you all should already be aware by this time.

    The Lord has made/led us into service where we each are different, different part’s of the body, each with different gift that so often are obvious in the character displayed.
    One saying my gift is mercies, I will beat you half to death, gift of discernment, you have hurt someone.
    My gift is prophecy, why can’t you see the signs of the times? My gift is knwledge, why are you people so stupid?
    I believe Andrew has put together a new thing, it excites me beyond belief… praise the living God.

  500. trying to post havign a lot of problems..

  501. Yes, Bill Johnson’s band of occultists are very busy here in UK also. What they teach has more in common with Hermeticism than Biblical Christianity.

    They appeal to the sensual and carnal rather than the truly spiritual. This has nothing to do with Faith, it is demonic and needs to be rejcted for what it is.

    After having met a number of followers of the New Mysticism I have seen how spiritually superior they feel compared to us “poor, deprived” Bible-based Christians who are “Missing out on a deeper relationship with God”!

    These are wolves in sheep’s clothing, a brood of vipers who would seek to poison everyone with their poisonous doctrines of devils.

    You are too nice Andrew, too nice indeed! Call them for what they are!!!!

  502. We are so busy trying to decide what kind of servant we are what characteristics we have. Do we realize we are judging one another according to the flesh? I am what God has determined I am not man, If have been called to do a job then God will provide the things necessary for that job .I for one am tired of being put into a spiritual straightjacket by those who measure me according to their own wisdom or doctrines. God measures by the heart we measure by the outside. The issue is not what kind of gifts we have but how loveless and judgmental without reason we are.

  503. DeWayne, you left out ‘only’

    “One saying my gift is mercies, I will beat you ‘only’ half to death”

    I was thinking this is now looking like a bash-fest too, if that is what you meant.

  504. Ibelieve Sep 30th 2012

    “Herescope” is nothing more then new age propaganda.

    I cannot believe some one is promoting this deceiving web site.

    Be careful what people are telling you on this web site if it does not line up with scripture it is not of the Lord. There are people here who are new agers and mormons with the intent of drawing away disciples.

  505. STOP!! Its not about me! The Lord looks out on the Harvest…the Time is short! What has He called each of us to do? Will we have Freedom to step out and do it? Or will new laws stop us? Can we stop the slide downward at least for our country, for awhile?
    We learn from God’s Holy Word ~”You will make your prayer to Him, and He will hear you, and you will pay your vows.You shall also decide and decree a thing, and it shall be established for you; and the light [of God’s favor] shall shine upon your ways. (Job 22:27-28). We begin each day, each hour if led by God, praying for these people, for all the college students, our neighbors and those in Government; and God gives us then, the Authority to decree that the enemy WILL get behind us, in the Name of Jesus!
    We thank the Lord for His Favor on us, as we preach Jesus and His Gospel and His Kingdom! What an awesome opportunity He has given us, in this DAY WE LIVE! Lets get ready! Our testimony of Who Jesus Christ is to us, how much He loves you & me, and sharing Romans 3:23, 6:23, John 3:3, John 14:6, Romans 10:9-11, 2 Cor.5:15 & Rev. 3:20! God Bless you, as you think & pray on your calling from Him, your right & responsibilty to vote for God’s Righteouness & Justice to rise up in the land, and step out in faith! Obedience to Him will bless you awesomely…I know; He’s done it for me! I’m 72 years young now! Pray, Decree, Obey, for you are here “for such a time as this!”

  506. I live in a society that measures its self by what rights it has, what abilities it has, what I can do and who I am. These are all lofty ideals but unattainable.
    As a slave of Christ I have:
    no rights
    no right to say who I am but what Christ thinks of me
    Doesn’t matter what my abilities he will send me where he wants me
    No reward for what I do
    Submission to Christ is what is important
    Making others do what I think is best is no good
    Speaking the truth in love is mandated
    We are called to be declares of the truth
    We will never have a Dominion of our own for we are slaves of Christ’s kingdom
    We have no right to our own plans, no right to decree only declare what God decrees
    The accountability we have is to Christ first and foremost
    What I am getting at many have gone beyond the limits of what God has set and placed themselves on Christ’s throne trying to do Christ’s job.

  507. For we think it is our right to do so.

  508. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    barry – from your prayer
    “Give us again your Holy Spirit, His wonders, His gifts and His power to convict, save, heal and make men holy through Jesus Christ. O God forgive us for departing from your gospel of grace. forgive us for departing from your Holy Book. Restore your holy church in this hour we pray. In Jesus name alone do we plead. Amen ! amen! amen!”

    and i say AMEN AMEN AND AMEN, as well.

    barry, i was actually sitting here pondering on so much of what has been shared and revealed and there is SORROW in my heart – heaviness – then i saw your post and started to read it – i went to get a notebook because, honestly, if i don’t get on here FREQUENTLY, i get LOST in the posts and i have been taking care of my 3 1/2 month old grandaughter since yesterday :-) joy joy!
    but, i had only BEGUN to read your posts where you spoke of signs and wonders – as i was going to get the notebook i realized that YES!! we LONG to see the TRUE ‘supernatural workings’ of the Holy Spirit so much and have the LORD JESUS confirm HIS Word, His authority……but, i realized i wanted MORE than anything – more than ANY sign or ANY wonder – to see men’s lives GENUINELY TRANSORMED AND MADE NEW – CHANGED – TRULY TRULY CHANGED – by the power of GOD…..living here surrounded by the MULTITUDE of ‘church people’, the heart heaviness is sometimes overwhelming because their LIVES DO NOT CHANGE. they become ‘church members’ or they ‘get baptized’ and go right back to their lives – oh, they may have a week or two of trying to ‘act a little better’ but that is all…..WHERE IS THE SUPERNATURAL REGENERATING POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO TRANSFORM – TO CHANGE PEOPLE FOREVER???????????? where, oh, LORD – this brings me to tears….

  509. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    i meant to add, barry, that when i returned with the notebook and read the remainder of your prayer…i saw that you, too, were crying out for the MIRACULOUS power of the Holy Spirit to CHANGE US AND MAKE US HOLY………amen.

  510. Ibelieve,

    You wrote:

    “Herescope” is nothing more then new age propaganda.

    Really? While I don’t necessarily agree with all that’s posted on Herescope, they are most often right on the money and hardly promoting anything New Age – they are, rather exposing it. Larry DeBruyn’s article, the one posted by Nicole, is a fine article. Can you point us to the problem as you see it with that particular article?

  511. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    in some ways i see that the GREATEST ‘miracle’ of all is a truly born again transformed human being – greater than ANY healing – than any kind of miracle and i HAVE experienced ‘miracles’ and they have CHANGED me FOREVER but, nothing, oh, nothing, transforms us like walking with HIM day by day and being MADE into His image by the precious HOLY SPIRIT working in us – where has this POWER – the manifestation of LIFE CHANGING power gone?? i know HE is still working – i know there are MANY still encountering this AMAZING GOD and NOT walking away unregenerated…..
    we made it a ‘formula’ – we made it about ‘church membership’ – we made it about ‘mental assent’ and we made it NOTHING.

    God forgive us and LORD, COME COME


    HE did so many ‘miracles’ – feeding and healing – but, where were they all at the end – a few were there – but the multitudes were NOT – i am NOT convinced that ANY ‘sign or wonder’ will CHANGE a person – the miracle of REGENERATION – of being miraculously BORN AGAIN – THAT changes us……and i still LOVE whatever HE does – making Himself REAL – but i want the LASTING CHANGE – I WANT TO SEE MEN MADE ALIVE AND NOT DIE AGAIN – people SO changed that they WILL NOT – they CANNOT turn back….

    that’s what i want. oh, LORD, the REAL.

  512. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    barry, from your post:
    “Re: my comments about the second root cause the revival of revival of mystisism being the departure from the bibilcal gospel that every grace and blessing as well as our relationship with God being ENTIRELY based on faith iin Jesus death alone plus nothing from start to finish. “The righteous shall live by faith.” when well meaning people believe and teach that salavation and the Christian life is started by the righteousness of God by faith in Jesus death alone BUT IT IS CONTINUED by behavior modification, performance and self effort THEY HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE AND HAVE DEPARTED FROM THE GOSPEL! The Bible clearly teaches that we start by faith in the cross plus nothing , continue by faith in the cross plus nothing and end by faith in the cross plus nothing. When the church departed from this ( faith from first to last) biblical gospel she opened up pandoras box. Paul said, ” after starting by faith are you now going to finish by law ( by self effort behavior and performance modification)?”

    i CANNOT tell you how this SPEAKS to me – i wanted to repost your entire word there – barry, THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH.


    HE did it ALL and EVERYTHING EVERYTHING EVERYTHING we will EVER need for ‘life and godliness’ has been provided BY and THROUGH our Precious LORD – the MOMENT you begin to make it about ANY OTHER THING – EVEN A SEEMING ‘GOOD’ THING – you REMOVE the LORD JESUS from HIS RIGHTFUL PLACE and you put an ‘idol’ there instead and here is the PATH of destruction…

    THIS IS A RELATIONSHIP WITH A PERSON – the Lord Jesus Christ – and it is BUILT on nothing nothing nothing but WHAT HE IS AND WHAT HE HAS DONE FOR US…..all this ‘running after’ even seemingly ‘good’ things distracts us from the call to love, to holiness, to being day by day transformed as we take up our cross and follow HIM.

    i know there may be some on here that will ‘scoff’ at me – at this ‘simplicity’ – but, i am CONVINCED more than ever – that the TRUE gospel is VERY VERY SIMPLE – we don’t ADD to it – we don’t TAKE AWAY from it….JESUS DID IT ALL and as we RECOGNIZE this, we see that it is SIMPLY a LOVE relationship with OUR GOD, OUR CREATOR, OUR BROTHER, OUR FRIEND, OUR SAVIOR, OUR LORD – day by day – we OBEY Him because we LOVE Him……we aren’t RUNNING after all these THINGS – as a weaned child rests against his mother, so we rest in Our Lord.
    Psalm 131:2
    Surely I have composed and quieted my soul; Like a weaned child rests against his mother, My soul is like a weaned child within me.

    TRUST…simple childlike trust….not striving….not straining to BECOME but allowing HIM to ‘have His way’ in us.

  513. I would to add one more add on to the list
    power people thinking everything is done by power rather than abiding

  514. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    carl emersen
    THANK YOU for these words
    “Such fellowship in the truth of His word is precious and genuine unity is without contention.

    Those who enjoy this are childlike in faith and open to His Word as they read the scriptures.

    This is so different than the razzmatazz that passes off as spirituality so commonplace today.”

    i could NOT agree MORE. may the LORD BLESS YOU, brother.

  515. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    as i have made my way slowly through all the posts i see there is some seeming ‘contention’…why?? do we think more highly of ourselves than we ought?? i’m asking myself that question right now……

    for the last 2 days i have found myself pondering the fact that we MUST be aware and we MUST warn and WE MUST NOT DESPAIR or LOSE HOPE because we become bitter and vindictive and DESPERATE – there is no place for this in the LORD – HE IS NOT DESPERATE –

    the situation is URGENT but OUR GOD is STILL GOD – let’s ‘shine the light in the darkness’ but let’s NOT get so ‘worked up’ that we DO, as some UNgraciously said MUCH earlier – ‘turn on one another’.

    and, YES, i am speaking these words to MYSELF, as well, because i DO get ‘worked up’ and ‘in the flesh’.

    i keep being brought back to the simplicity of the gospel and wondering if we do not sometimes put TOO much emphasis on our ‘great learning’ – it will NOT be our ‘great learning’ that saves us or ANYONE else – it WILL be the simple, precious, faithful, unfailing POWER of God by HIS HOLY SPIRIT through JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. amen?? oh, please amen.

    i KNOW many of you can ‘blow me out of the water’ with your knowledge and understanding of all these things….i have learned MUCH from what has been shared here – and i appreciate it GREATLY – but, i think we may be starting to ‘skate along the edge with our PARTICULAR areas of emphasis’ AND not hearing so well????

    love to you all – thank you for EVERYTHING that has been given in Him.

  516. Amen to that…

  517. Debbylynne,

    I was saying Amen to you post on Psalm 131, my favourite Psalm…


    Carl Emerson.

  518. Simon, Debylynne, such good truth your share. Simon you said when we forsake all for our Lord and Savior, we become His totally, bondslaves. We are, we give our all for Him (paraphrasing). But I would like to add to this truth: Due to our love and trust in Him along, we are FREE, indeed. And Deby: When we grow into true ‘maturity’, and He says we will) we do not seek what others say or declare as truth because our adventure in Christ is so precious, no one can spoil it. You shall know the truth and the Truth will set you free, Amen!

    So many, many mature writings on here. Yes we need the gifts, yes we need the Watchmen, but nothing supercedes our Lord and Savior. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

  519. cindy (wholeheart) Sep 30th 2012

    Lord that we the church would be struck in the heart with the sword of your truth and let it kill us, that you would live in us and the life that we live would be you living in us with your truth at the very core of our hearts.

    We say we want to love you and serve you, but so many move out of the relationship they have learned from other men never attaining to the ‘knowledge of the truth’ which births your life in us as we choose death to our self centered life. The Word of God is alive and the Holy Spirit is the only one that can reveal it. I pray Lord that we would hunger and thirst after righteousness and would then allow you to fill us with your life, the knowledge of you that comes by your Spirit in your Word and in being still and knowing God…

    A pint of poison in a river of truth can destroy the life that is in that river or make them sick and deformed… Help us Lord Jesus and thank you for Andrew, bless and keep him and his family for the your Glory.

  520. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    ‘like’ carl emerson!!! (that’s the ‘like’ button i’m pretending is there ;-))

    amen, joan w – amen!!!

  521. debylynne Sep 30th 2012


  522. Joan W
    In this world we see freedom as being free to do what we think is right having no limitations
    But in the Kingdom of heaven we are free if we remain slaves of Christ. Freedom within limits for outside those limits lie deception and evil. So for me true freedom lies in being a slave of Christ. Not to do what I think is best.
    This is a hard concept to understand for it goes against the common understand of freedom how can being a slave set us free? yet in this world all freedom leads to slavery of some kind of sin or another.

  523. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    “BE STILL… demonstrates how contemplative, or ‘listening,’ prayer can be be a vital way to find peace in the midst of a frenzied, fast-paced, modern world. BE STILL examines the importance of silence and reflective prayer as a way to receive God’s guidance in everyday life” (from nicole’s post above)

    i KNOW this…very well…this IS the main way that i opened myself up to ‘spiritual forces’ and would write page after page after page of ‘supposed’ communication from the LORD…i was ‘instructed on’how to’ do this by our ‘apostle/prophet’.i would write so fast you could hardly read the words….there is actually something in ‘occult practices’ like that but i can’t remember the name of it…..i CANNOT TELL YOU HOW STRONG A HOLD THIS HAD ON ME nor HOW DIFFICULT IT WAS TO GET FREE.

    let me clarify something. since all this happened, i have been ‘in prayer’ and had things come to my mind that i jotted down to address after i was ‘done’ in my time with the LORD – but i did NOT ‘make my mind blank’ or try to enter into some ‘fugue’ state by repeating a word or phrase over and over, or ‘lose myself’ in some deep, throbbing, minor key music, my effort to ‘attain’ this ‘super sensitive spiritual’ state – i DID do all these things BEFORE – BEFORE the LORD delivered me.

    in nicole’s post above, the music thing is also mentioned – it is OF PARAMOUNT importance – you basically ‘open yourself up’ through ALL these things.

    i used to turn on ‘misty edwards’ and walk and walk and walk back and forth back and forth ‘praying’ – but there was ALWAYS a ‘darkness’ – a ‘somberness’ to EVERYTHING….you thought you were being ‘spiritual’ because it was SOOOOO heavy – BUT it was DARK. there WAS an intensity that made you think – THIS must be GOD – but, it’s NOT – and what i was so afraid of for the over 2 years after coming ‘out’ was that this ‘THING’ would grip me again…….there is something so COMPELLING about it – you just want to ‘go in THAT place’ again – then, i thought it was GOD – i HAVE experienced absolute JOY and overwhelming BEAUTY in the presence of the LORD – this is NOT like that – POWERFUL? yes. but dark, always dark.

    and one other thing – it got to where i simply could NOT pray unless i prayed like this…….

  524. Martin Sep 30th 2012

    Why do we need a website to tell us what is heretical and what isn’t?

    Forgive me, I’ve just caught up with this thread.

    In using such websites aren’t we surrendering our judgement, our discernment, ourselves, to the spirituality of another.

    How is this different from what the likes of Johnson et al want us to do.

    Drink water from your own cisterns.

    Don’t we each have a relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit? Why do we need a mediator, when the mediator of the New Covenant is available to us?

    Sounds like a very powerful case for being out of church, well away from this mess. Glad I am!

  525. Contrary to popular believe this kind does not come out by rebuking but by rebuilding lost ground and confessing the sin of power and mind control.
    Those who are into power and faith often reveal the symptoms of the above mentioned bondage.
    Why for we have been taught to look for gifts and ability to minister gifts rather than the Master of Christ.
    You are dealing with a mind binding spirit rooted in false teaching and doctrines of demons.

  526. debylynne:

    As I have been reading some of your posts, I started to really cry…..I know what you have written is so true. The tears flow. I will live by what you have said in Jesus.
    Thank you!

  527. richard Sep 30th 2012


  528. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    oh anna, dear sister, praise His WONDERFUL name – may the LORD BLESS you and LEAD you and KEEP you – ALWAYS close to HIS heart ….

  529. Good posts here!

  530. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    we all must ‘grow up’ in Him, mustn’t we?? this is so very very true….and yet, sometimes i am afraid in our ‘seeking to mature’ and ‘move on’ into ‘deeper’ things that we leave behind PRECIOUS truths – that are NEVER meant to be ‘abandoned’ or ‘outgrown’….

    think back to when the LORD JESUS was simply EVERYTHING to you – just to THINK about HIM, gave you such JOY!! not some ‘spiritual gift’ but HIM – the person of Our Lord…….how HE loved us and we KNEW it……how He began to ‘mold’ us and to ‘free’ us and to show us so many things that we had never known or understood……we simply ADORED Him and read HIS Word with HUNGRY hearts and BELIEVED that He WOULD do what He said He would do IN us……we BELIEVED Him……what JOY in finding ‘Someone’ we could actually TRUST with our lives, our hearts, our wills – everything.

    i believe more than ever that ‘going back to our first love’ is the NUMBER ONE ‘protection from deception’ – at the risk of repeating myself…this is a ‘person to person’ relationship – not a ‘manifestation of different supernatural activities’ relationship – it’s NOT about these ‘things’ – not even about the ‘gifts’ – they simply come to us through HIS love but they are NEVER to be our true focus – JESUS PAID IT ALL, ALL TO HIM I OWE, SIN HAD LEFT A CRIMSON STAIN, HE WASHED IT WHITE AS SNOW.

    i am NOT making little of the Holy Spirit or the gifts – and we ARE told to desire earnestly the ‘best gifts’ – but the very very very BEST gift is the LORD JESUS HIMSELF…..

    the Word was ‘confirmed’ with signs and wonders – yes, it was and yes, it WILL be…..but, even so, the ‘greatest of all wonders’ in my humble opinion is a TRULY ‘born again’ soul – a miracle that goes on and on and on – to me – THIS is a ‘greater work’ that we have been ‘allowed’ to be instruments in His hand, to do – those ‘greater works’ that He said we should do because He went to the Father.
    i’ll ‘receive’ any ‘great work’ the LORD desires to release through me or anyone else that truly knows, loves, and obeys Him – BUT, i’m still convinced that the ‘greatest’ work – the greatest ‘sign and wonder’ that ‘follows’ the preaching of the gospel IS the genuine salvation of men.

    thank you all for your patience with me as i try to bring out what is in my heart…
    it IS as barry has said – we BEGIN by faith and we are SANCTIFIED by faith and we will be GLORIFIED because of our faith IN HIM AND WHAT HE DID ON THAT CROSS – ALONE.

  531. Is anyone else having difficulty with posts, i.e. some posts not going through?

  532. Nicole Sep 30th 2012

    Just came back on line and I am finding some of you want to really “start knocking” or at least writing as though one is coming against another on this particular website.

    This is not what the article nor the things posted should be about. It should be about LEARNING and hoping that we are not decieved and can possibly IN GOD’S Timing, Help someone , as He places people in front of you, or you are in a situation to where you can help someone out of the deception. —— They may choose to ignore all you say, or it could be a seed planted for a day when they have their eyes and ears opened and their memory.

    I am going to tell you a true story, as the others I have spoken about in my posts.

    This just happened to me by a client that I used to massage ions ago, when I knew, did, and THOUGHT that Reiki was a divine “healing” from our Lord Jesus Christ. — I was duped. !!! I was from the Church of Christ, yes, we read the bible, but we did not “know of” the Holy Spirit, for HE is not preached. (or used to not be)

    I could write blogs on my experiences from this ordeal and even what I have experienced “in the churches” but this particular story is because of Debbylynne, and what she has so courageously expressed and yet the tears that I shed are tears of joy, love, hope and mercy for OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST that has brought her, me, and thousands (or more that we don’t know of) out of the bondages of these places. HE and ONLY HE has set us free , and free to Learn, Discern, and to use proper “recall” or red flags, or just knowing HIM and HIS WORD. Some call it one thing, others call it another, but It is of the Lord when it POINTS BACK TO THE LORD and we see the falseness or our hearts are so ripped apart that we can only fall upon our knees.

    First, I don’t cry out to see the face of God. I am not worthy. I BOW down to HIM and even that, I shake at just the thought of HIM and HIS HOLY PRESENCE. And yes, we do feel that at times. That is not a “deception”

    But there is a “reverse” to this. And it is truly in the KUNDALINI SPIRIT / OR CHAKRAS Teachings, which is going around.

  533. Nicole Sep 30th 2012

    My friend, still gets massaged from me. Her grown daughter and son in law, for the last 3 yrs. have come into our home and my husband is teaching them “foundational biblical teachings from the bible” things that they are not learning in their baptist/ trinity church.

    But the other day, as I was massaging my client, she made the remark to me, She said, this:

    ” I am still waiting for that euphoric, that awesome, that spiritual , deep , intense, glow and lifting that your massages used to do for me”

    I knew what she was talking about. But I allowed her to carry on , so I could “correct her, pray more than I normally do, and to explain to her what that was”

    She said, “you have no idea, how awesome I felt, I mean, I literally felt that you were lifting me off the table” I felt on top of this world” And I slept so wonderfully and had no pains, or aches, and yet, NOW

    you have been massaging me for over 3 months every week and I am STILL WAITING for that feeling. YOU HAVE CHANGED. YOUR massages are still great, and your hands are still blessed and you are gifted but that “feeling” that “HIGH” is no longer a part of it. ” WHY???

    That was what I was waiting for — THE WHY????

    Until that question, was asked I knew if I tried to explain, it would go over her head. She would here , she would get the so called sermon, but she would not understand. And this woman has been a client and now dear sister in the Lord since 1998, but it was not until just the other day, that she asked me this .

    I explained to her, I told her HOW WRONG I WAS and HOW REPENTANT I WAS and OH my, if I knew then what I know now, I would never , ever , do any of that garbage. It was at that time, we both could feel the presence of our Lord and Savior and how all of a sudden he broke the chains that binded her. All these several months to years I had been praying that she would be released from any wrong doing on my part. But as I did this, she told me, “I never knew I was in a bondage”

    See, people don’t realize this. She did not realize that she had a “strong desire” to follow certain people and yet, because of warnings and articles I would send her, she would pray and she would seek the Lord to keep her safe and out of harms way of anything that was not of HIM. And though she had “desires to follow others” she chose not to.

    I write this, because it is a STRONG DELUSION, it is a HIGH that people get on the Lord and that is NOT OF THE LORD.

    I could not go back and call over 4,000 people that I have massaged. But God knows my heart and has heard my tears and my sobs and my repentance and my yearnings for HIS TRUTH no matter what.

    He gave me a broken heart for this and I nowI shutter in horror as I watch and see that many “christians” in HOSPICE care, are being worked on by Christian Massage therapists that are doing Reiki or healing touch or universal healing on these people in their last days. The work of the Lord is there and HE shall bring forth those that will be willing to do HIS WORK for HIS PEOPLE. IT is HIS TIMING as we are obiedent unto HIM and HIM ALONE.

    Rieki has the Kundalini Spirit placed in people. It takes repentance, renouncing, A heart after our Father and willingness to let it go and all things go, and it is being passed on by ministries by laying on of hands. One can become truly “ignited” w/ it and think “IT IS FIRE” THAT is why they call it FIREWALLS/ TUNNELS etc.etc.etc. And as each “leader” pats you or lays hands on you in a healing line, if you have any “open doors” it will come a calling to you.

    Even though I had a heart for the Lord, I was in MIXTURE and HE DELIVERED ME. YET, I might be overly cautious, and I don’t mind, because I have been there, done that, and hey, I am no fool to think that I could not fall into a trap again. That is why we must always stay focused on the Lord and do question, do research, and do seek others that have been through things that you might want to tamper w/ and you are unsure of. Sometimes we just throw those cautions out the window , when we should not.

    I have yet to check e-mails. (read them) I did receive them thought, but it has been a busy weekend .

    Blessings to all,

    Debbylynne, thank you so much for your prayers, and all those that are praying from HIS HEART ./HIS SPIRIT.

    I have found that it is through a sactification process that we are all going through.

    When I was single , as a single parent, after my divorce, and I found the LOrd. or shall I say I came to the Lord on bended knees w/ the only thing I knew to do —hold a cruxifix and cry out – which lasted 6 hours. in a closet that had enough sweat and tears in it that I could have filled a bath tub.

    I started at the Church of Christ , I got baptized after 3 months and I so was in love w/ the Lord. I had such a profound thirst for HIM. YET , at the same time, I was given THE COURSE OF MIRACLES — a new age bible of sorts.

    OUR FATHER loved me so much that I could not go past page 28. It got tossed into the bookcase never to be read again. BUT satan used other avenues to lure me in.

    ONE THING that I know I had , and that was a desire to know my Father, HIS SON and eventually Holy SPirit. ( both my husband and I cried when we realized how many years we missed w/o “knowing the Holy Spirit”

    ANyway, while I was a single parent, this thirst was so intense and I thought I would never loose it.

    Unfortunately I did, as “life happens” and yet, the Love of My Father, so brought it back to us in our later life. He never let go of us and HE USED everything for HIS GOOD. We took many detours and unmarked territories, but HE BROUGHT US BACK because we WANTED HIM and HE KNEW our HEARTS. I pray that others will come back to their first love, bow down unto HIM and Seek HIM as they loose self and all things that have thrown them off coarse.

    P.S. There is a book that Andrew used to have a part of it on his website. It is called Protection from Deception, I do believe that is the name of it. Anyway, D. Prince talks about all of these “coming things” in his book and it is something to truly read and be aware of. Allowing the Lord to guide you and His Holy SPirit to bring you HIS TRUTHS. HE is the one you are to seek Always.

  534. This difficulty we write about deception etc. Isn’t it our own knowledge of these matters that leads us astray it is exactly because we know so much that we are vulnerable, for in our knowledge we don’t pay attention to warnings. Usually people that have never had to deal with these matters have all the answer, people that have been duped and recovered will use scripture in the hopes of steering others in the right direction, in all humility for we know we can be deceived and how long it takes to get out of it.

  535. Peter H Sep 30th 2012

    Lets face up to the Truth which is of the Holy Spirit and which is counterfeit. How much we diguise these issues by explaining everything away in using human wisdom and knowledge, we go back to what is said in scripture and His word for us. We either accept the Word fof God, or replace His word with something else to suit one’s teachings and doctrines, hence what is happening in the christian church todate. Having seen this and no retraction of repentance such practices that are going on and taking place worldwide has left the church divided and which already has been mentioned, in disarray and turmoil. This is not going to get any better and will be like a plague, infectious and contagious which brethren have said in their comments.
    May I add my comments which are
    1) counterfeit occult practices being performed in church will continue
    2) those using christianity as a tool to make money will do so despite being exposed as frauds
    3) people will continue to be fleeced by charlatans who use bible verses for their own means and ends
    4) using termilogy by persuation diguised as godly will deceive those wanting to become prosperous just like those preaching the prosperity teaching
    5) false prophecy will abound in the christian church due to public demand and by those seeking it as a substitute for God’s instructions personally and nationally
    6) the building of spiritual expires and their extentions will take precedence over the building up of the Body of Christ
    7) it has become a common practice to use the name of Jesus for own purposes and selfish reasoning
    9) the aim for unity by any method available and obtaining this will be given a priority coming from church leadership giving an impression that such a unity is godly and ordained
    10) the christian church will continue its course of self destruction and being scattered into various camps of thought, teachings, and man made religious organisations for the sake of following men rather than Christ
    11) those whom thought were trustworthy christian leaders will spit venom against those who question their authority and leadership
    12) the importance of repentance will be a thing of the past when it comes down to ecumenicalism, the emerging church and its aims, and forming an ungodly alliance to deceive even the elect
    13) people will turn against those following the Lord Jesus Christ and His bride called the Body of Christ
    14) deception will be at the forefront in bringing in what is called the world wide revival which will be counterfeit in nature and appearance mocking Almighty God and His people

    But then what has been shared is contentious and will be refuted by those saying otherwise with contempt and ridicule with explanations that this is judgemental .

    I share this in love and thank Andrew Strom for allowing my comments to be printed on this web site.

    I cannot say much in church due to not in leadership, not hob knobing with the senior pastor, and not a member of the clique which runs the church system.
    It appears that this is what the church is all about and as with most churches, will remain that way.

    God bless

  536. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    nicole – thank you. i have received much from what you have shared here. i have the book by derek prince “protection from deception” and the LORD greatly used it when He was delivering me – thank you so much for being willing to share all that you have with the rest of us….

    simon – amen, that is the truth.

    all this week, i have been singing from psalm 42

    As the deer panteth for the waters,
    so my soul longeth after Thee.
    You alone are my heart’s desire,
    and i long to worship Thee.
    You alone are my strength, my shield,
    To You alone may my spirit yield.
    You alone are my heart’s desire,
    And i long to worship Thee.

    i simply cannot get away from the truth of His all-sufficiency. He will bring us safely through and He WILL hear our cry for the sake of those that are still ‘ensnared’. amen.

  537. Peter H, you said ‘I share this in love”
    I don’t see Christ’s love for people in any of what you wrote. It
    sounds like satan’s checklist of things he wants to do.
    you also said, ‘But then what has been shared is contentious and will be refuted by those saying otherwise with contempt and ridicule with explanations that this is judgemental .”
    Nice try, but you are not above being told you are wrong,when you are .

    Acts 2:17

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, God declares, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all mankind, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy [[a]telling forth the divine counsels] and your young men shall see visions ([b]divinely granted appearances), and your old men shall dream [[c]divinely suggested] dreams.

  538. Christian journalist Sep 30th 2012

    I wonder how the church leaderships will deal with this matter regarding the presidential election of the USA?
    Where are the John the Baptists? And who will tackle the matter about the situation on christian tv and radio?
    Look at this link http://www.christian.org.uk/news/bid-to-gag-us-churches-for-white-house-race/?e280912
    Also it appears that now the leader of the British Labour Party is joining the ranks of the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats leaderships in supporting same sex marriages and which should be allowed in christian churches.
    See this link http://www.christian.org.uk/news/miliband-supports-gay-marriage-in-churches/?e280912
    What with the goings on in the western church and the political system – anything now goes in the sight of Almighty God – and so many christians say God will not judge these actions?
    Care to comment of what news has come to light!

  539. Peter H Sep 30th 2012


    Your rude comments reflect on quoting scripture to back the camp that you are in.
    The camp of misleading people into the deception of “the world wide revival” coming our way which is not.
    See the real world and what is happening in the 21st century church by reading this…
    “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” 2 Thessalonians 2 verse 3

    “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.”
    1 Timothy 4 verse 1

    …and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame. Hebrews 6 verse 6

    Apostasy is a rebellion against God because it is a rebellion against Truth. In the Old Testament God warned the Jewish people about their idolatry and their lack of trust in Him. In the New Testament the epistles warn us about not falling away from the Truth. Apostasy is a very real and dangerous threat.

    To say that I have no love in Christ for the people who use christianity for what purposes is perceived, you are incorrect and wrong my friend, and can I call you my brother.

    I cannot judge people in what they do and how they act. Only God Almighty can do this.

    If you are blinkered in what is going on with the likes of Morris Cerullo and company, that is your problem. If you are following the likes of Bill Johnson and his associates, then brother you are entertaining error and their practices, and their own explanations which have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

    That is one of the reasons why Andrew Strom has written about the situation.

    You mention too of myself using Satan’s checklists. Please don’t give any credit to Satan in doing so. For I am a spirit filled born again christian concerned with how the church has been infiltrated by so many charlatans and who use and abuse scripture to suit their own ends.

    Perhaps you may be one of them in your defence?

  540. DeWayne Sep 30th 2012

    Christ spent years instructing in wisdom and knowledge, however before sending out disciples, warned that they would be like sheep among wolves. His warning was followed with this instruction. “Therefore be as shrewd/wise as the snake/serpent, and as innocent as doves.”
    Think of this as acquiring unsuitable knowledge, and you have misunderstood a very important need. Nor is ignorance a sign of innocence, it is a sign of not listening or refusing council… from within the body of true believers.
    I once knew an intelligent secular man saying, it is not how dialog begins, it is how it ends…much like difficult biblical discipline. Look, i use html tags.

  541. DeWayne Sep 30th 2012

    Where is my underline…

  542. Barry Koe Sep 30th 2012

    I wish I had the time and ability to do a thorough study of the Bible and difficult passages on my own without any outside references and help. But honestly I am no scholar. While the Holy Spirit is my teacher, outside references and help of bible teachers are a blessing. But still I never fail to check everything against.the bible and see if something said strays away from historical christianity ie whether it is a non essential doctrinal difference or it is something extrabibilical and encroaching the new age and occultic false teachings. Like you I have moved away from being a fanatical WOF believer.
    Strangely while at one time I used to hate John MacArthur because he is a cessationist, I found biblical gems in his teachings and now do daily devotions using his ”Drawing Near” devotion guide. For book studies I follow exposition by the late Ray Stedman, all on their websites.For pragmatic but biblical sermons, it’s Jim Cymbala.. Never never Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Howard Brown, Bill Johnson or the Elijah list ‘prophets’.Let’s all be Bereans.

    And thanks Andrew for all the warnings.

  543. God declares, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all mankind

    argue with Him, He said it.

  544. ValleyAnt Sep 30th 2012

    Would someone please see about helping Anna in Redding, CA if you feel so feel led?

    I skimmed these posts, as there are quite a few, looking for something to post a short reply to, and it’s prayer.

    Andrew, Barry, CBMT, Debylynne, Cindy, and anyone else I missed who prayed, I was saying amen as I was reading. And Debylynne with Carl, the true gospel is indeed simple, not a flurry of works or performance but kept for those who are simple and who come humbly like little children (I long to be continually there): “I do not concern myself with… things too lofty for me. Surely, I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a weaned child is with his mother. Like a weaned child is my soul within me.” AMEN! And selah. Amen.

    CBMT, I’m with you for America! I don’t like writing prayers publicly, so this will be short (yay): “Lord, You have been our Dwelling Place in all generations.” Amen. Revive Your People, and REFORM THIS NATION America. Amen.

  545. Barry Koe Sep 30th 2012

    By entertaining of strange persons, men sometimes entertain angels unawares: but by entertaining of strange doctrines, many have entertained devils unaware.

    John Flavel

  546. Barry Koe,

    I don’t profess to be a scholar; not at all. I’ve studied a bit; but, I have no formal theological training. I’m blessed to have the resources to buy material for study and reference and the time to do the studying. Truth be told, I’d rather study the Scriptures ever more by reading and comparing to commentaries, really learn Koine (NT) Greek, etc.; but, the Lord has led me to study and write about the things on my blog. Thus, I learn as I go.

    Just to clarify, I’ve never actually been a part of WoF, or any part of what I term hyper-charismaticism. I nearly fell into one aspect; but, the Lord stopped me as I was led to research a bit before stepping foot into that pool.

    I like MacArthur, even though I disagree with his cessationist stance. I’ve learned a lot from him. However, I disagree with his pre-trib views as well and was very disappointed to read his explanation of the Rapture as occurring ‘between chapters 3 and 4 in Revelation’. Yet, I must give Grace To You an endorsement for sending me a free copy of his book Truth Endures. I had requested a free booklet and I was sent the book instead since the booklet was not available. There’s a chapter in the book which contains the contents of the booklet.

  547. Martin-thanks for your Transparency- to answer your questions at least in part let me encourage you with this. When their is so much deception going around around us it may seem safer to simply with draw from everyone and everything. But THAT in itself is a deception since the first objective of Satan as a wolf is to separate you from the flock. Once he has separated you you are no match for his cunning. Remember according to Eph 1: 21 that the church is still the Fullness of Him who fills all in all. Jesus comes to you by His Spirit and reveals Himself to you through His Word but He ALSO COMES TO YOU THROUGH HIS CHURCH. You can never find Jesus fully unless you are willing to find Him and relate to Him through His people the church.
    If in a knee jerk reaction to deception you withdraw from the church you are unintentionally but surely withdrawing from Jesus.
    Jesus is able to keep you from deception and even if you fall into it for a season He is Lord even over that and will use it to strengthen and build you up more fully so you can help others who are in deception.
    Simply pray the Lords prayer daily in faith “lead me not into temptation and DELIVER ME FROM THE EVIL ONE.” Papa will always answer that prayer .
    And in th meantime stick with His people. This is a time for the elect to stick with each other. Hebrews 10:25- “Let us not give up meeting together AS SOME ARE IN THE HABIT OF DOING – but instead let us encourage each other AND ALL THE MORE AS YOU SEE THE DAY APPROACHING “

  548. Nicole Sep 30th 2012

    Barry , I am not going to go into what you have written, But I will ask you::

    Since when did the Holy Father God, Almighty ,EVER< EVER, EVER, be called "Papa"?????? HE is our EVER MOST HOLY FATHER and NO ONE SHOULD CALL HIM PAPA.

    Bob Jones started that years ago and since then it has gone around the "Churches"

  549. Nicole my Dear Sister- Romans 8:15 “we haven’t recieved a spirit of fear again that leads to slavery but we have recieved the Spirit of adoption as sons and by Him WE CRY OUT ABBA FATHER.”
    Abba In the Greek is a very intimate familiar way to address a persons father. Other terms that are completely synonymous with this word “Abba” are Dad, Daddy, Dada, Pappy or Papa. DEPENDING ON THE CULTURE AND LANGUAGE YOU SPEAK. Please don’t let your phobia of Bob Jones or your paranoia of any good and decent words he might have stolen and used to teach his false doctrines cause you to forbid Gods people from using these words. Papa isn’t in any way a disrespectful way for God’s sons to address Him any more than Daddy or Abba is disrespectful.
    Let me ask you one thing:
    According to Romans 8:15 -Who is it that is actually addressing God as “Abba” (Dad, Daddy, Pappy or Papa) in His sons ?
    Answer: It is the Holy Spirit HIMSELF WHO ADDRESSES god the Father in this way In the sons of God!
    You are mistaken because you do not know the Scriptures as you oughtmy Dear.

  550. “Simon said”….

    ‘In this world we see freedom as being free to do what we think is right having no limitations
    But in the Kingdom of heaven we are free if we remain slaves of Christ. Freedom within limits for outside those limits lie deception and evil. So for me true freedom lies in being a slave of Christ. Not to do what I think is best.
    This is a hard concept to understand for it goes against the common understand of freedom how can being a slave set us free? yet in this world all freedom leads to slavery of some kind of sin or another.’

    Yes Simon, I agree with you. I was merely letting others know that when we give ALL to the Lord, for the first time in one’s life he will find true freedom. As long as we walk to the ‘world’s drummer’ we are enslaved. This is what He said would happen. Ye shall Know the Truth and the Truth shall set ye Free…He is also talking about being free not only on this earth, Heaven And Earth. That is my Joy, Peace, Love and Life. I don’t have to worry about tomorrow or the end-time scenereos. I am safe in His Love and promises. I trust Him completely.

  551. Nicole , if papa does not sound good to you, you can also think of it as God not being just a Father but now He is “My Father”.

  552. Hi Barry and Nicole (and others),
    I have to weigh in on this one because I’ve been confused about the whole calling God, Daddy, issue for some time.

    I obviously know the Abba Father scripture, but… I have also heard teaching that the word “Abba” cannot be translated an endearment for Father. That in essence it has been a myth. I don’t believe that it came from particular Pastor from this era, in fact it dates back even further.

    I have been confused ever since. I would love if some of the Bible scholars would help us clarify, PLEASE!

  553. DL- look it up in any Lexicon and read any commentary from the past 500 years. “Abba” is a very intimate, personal and familiar address of ones genetic father.

  554. Thanks Brother. I really want to believe this because I honestly see my Heavenly Father this way. I’ll wait to see if others have more on this. I guess I’d like to know where the confusion came in, because in the circles I come from, it’s a well known confusion.
    I’d like to know WHO then decided it wasn’t a good thing for us to refer to God as our “Daddy”.

    I guess I need the confusion cleared up. Thanks!

  555. Nicole Sep 30th 2012

    I am not “paranoid” of Bob Jones but the word Papa, whether you mean it as an endearment to our Father, or if you are using it in another way, has its own following.

    In the book The Shack and also Eugene Patterson, they call Father, My Father, Eternal Father, Holy Father, – the name Papa.

    New Agers call GOD ‘their Papa , their Papa of the universe. Their sugar daddy of the universe.

    Maybe I am sensitive, that is o.k. To me, HE is my eternal Father, and HOLY.

    Jesus has been called a cool cat. and HE is my coolest friend.

    So, yes, I am sensitive , but I have heard people like James Goll, Bill Johnson, John Crowder, and so many others call Father Almighty, by a name that they mean it as their buddy, their cool daddy, their instant genie.

    So, thanks for your explaination.

  556. http://www.christianleadershipcenter.org/otws12.htm

    I found this on the subject, but not sure how reliable this is. What do others think?

  557. Guess I’m sensitive too, I have no problem praying to my Heavenly Father, Jesus instructed us to do this (Matthew 6:9) – yet I do have a feeling of unease when calling Him Poppa, Papa, daddy or similar..

    Checking strongs, I find this:
    G3962 – πατήρ – patēr – pat-ayr’
    Apparently a primary word; a “father” (literally or figuratively, near or more remote): – father, parent.

    Maybe this comes from another statement from Lord Jesus:
    Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

    I note in this verse that the same ‘word’ is used in both father and Father.. (and yes I do realise what Jesus was saying here).

    So, maybe it is to do with ‘respect’ or ‘holy fear’…?

  558. I don’t wish to challenge anyone here, just share in His love :-)


    “..However, not even all Internet articles resort to “Daddy” for “Abba,” and for good reason. “…far from being a colloquialism, is in fact an emphatic form of the word ‘father’ in Aramean. ‘Emphatic’ means that abba is the equivalent of O father! in English. The term denotes respect and was widely used by Jews in their prayers” (“Does Abba Mean”) Jewish Encyclopedia.com says regarding “Abba”: “It was the formula for addressing God most familiar to Jewish saints of the New Testament times” (Kohler). Thayer’s Lexicon also says of “Abba, Father,” “father, ho pateer, a customary title of God in prayer.”


    Abba is the transliteration of the Aramaic word for father. It occurs three times in the New Testament. It is always used as a direct address to God the Father. In Mark 14:36, Jesus uses it when He asks the Father to take away his cup. In Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6, it is the cry of the Spirit of God in the believer.

  559. I agree with you all. :)

    I think it’s very, very, important that we have a fear of God. I’ve had so many dumb-down that phase, to almost water it down to say that we should FEAR God, BUt just sorta, “be a mildly aware that He “could” fry us, but He won’t”. So in other words, with one breath there is an admission that He is King and ruler over ALL, but with the next breath, we reduce him to a human.

    But, I offer this. I was raised in a family where my earthly Father was very mean, abusive and did not model Christ in ANY way to me. (like many of us)
    Anyway, it wasn’t many years after I became a believer (not at the prompting of ANYONE) I just occasionally, and very gingerly, referred to God, as “daddy”. I never got to call my earthly Father, “daddy” or anything endearing, because, quite frankly, he didn’t like us kids much.

    Years later though, we lead him to Christ and I have a very good relationship with him.

    I think that sometimes when leading people to Christ, we have to be very sensitive to the fact that they will relate to God, the way they had related to their earthly Father. It is my belief that, that is why the enemy tries to hurt young children. For the simple fact that it scares our image of the Father, sometimes for life!

    I have always felt that as long as the believer is absolutely sure they have a reverence for God, and have approached the throne of grace, by the only door allowed, Jesus Christ, it is ok for them to have an endearment for Him.

    But! Like everything else lately, I could be WRONG! LOL I don’t want to end up offending God, with my human failings.

  560. Because there is so much deception I think it is wrong to call God any name that is not in the word. Abba Father or my Father is as close as I will get to dad. I cringe when people call The Lord, “The Trinity”. I just stick with what I know the bible says is a name for God.

  561. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    i find that when i am ‘praying in the Spirit’ i call to “Abba” quite a lot – i don’t use the term ‘daddy’ or ‘papa’ or ‘pappy’ because those are ‘earthly’ words to me – my own was called ‘daddy’ – i use the term FATHER almost ‘exclusively’ when i speak of Him or TO Him – but, when i am ‘praying in tongues’ i say ABBA….don’t know why – never set out to do it.

    i’m NOT saying that because a word is ‘familiar’ it shouldn’t be used – but somehow, i want whatever i ‘address’ Him as, to be ‘special’ to me….so i say FATHER.

    years ago when i was in an extremely distressed state because of ‘attacks’ from my mother on our being in a ‘spirit filled’ church, i threw myself down on the floor by the bed and i said ‘FATHER’!!! and in THAT moment i KNEW i had a REAL FATHER – i loved my daddy but he was a broken man with a drinking problem and an anger problem and our home life was NOT pleasant – BUT, at that moment i KNEW i had a FATHER and it was so different to me than simply a ‘daddy’ – NOT more ‘formal’ per se – more POWERFUL and more EVERYTHING that is good and i KNEW i could trust HIM more than my ‘earthly’ mother, even, and i had peace.

    and nicole, i am FULL agreement about the whole ‘SHACK’ deal – makes me SHUDDER just thinking about how he ‘depicted’ the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit…..

  562. Deby? Are we the same person? *gasp* We were typing at the same time.

  563. Abba – from the definitive Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (3rd edition; usually referred to as BDAG) – “abba” is the Greek transliterated Aramaic word equivalent to the Greek pater or “father”:

    – (…orig. a term of endearment, later used as title and personal name; rarely used in ref. to God) …used in prayer…and in the family circle, taken over by Greek-speaking Christians as a liturgical formula Mk 14:36; Ro 8:15; Gal 4:6. Not found in patristic lit [ED: not found in early church writings].

    From Thomas Schreiner’s Baker Exegetical Commentary of the New Testament (BECNT, Baker, Grand Rapids, MI, 1998) on Romans [p 426]:

    We have already seen that being children of God and adoption are inseparable from obedience, but we should not lessen the intimate and personal dimensions of the glad acknowledgment that God is the loving Father of believers. His fatherly care and rule guard believers from fear of condemnation. The use of abba is particularly striking and has been the subject of much discussion…The word is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic term and presumably reflects the early practice of Hellenistic Christians [ED: influence of Greek culture]. Indeed, the use of the word in Christian communities probably stems from Jesus himself (Mark 14:36). Intimacy with God [ED: not in the hyper-charismatic sense!] is certainly suggested by abba (and by pater as well), but some scholars have overplayed the intimacy and uniqueness of the term (so Jeremias 1965; 9-40; for a corrective see Haenchen 1966; 492-94; Barr 1988a; Barr 1988b) [The last parenthetical bit is a referencing in shorthand for the sources used; all Greek words transliterated into English type.]

    I also checked F.F. Bruce’s NIGTC (Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, MI, 1982) on Galatians 4:6 which doesn’t go into the same depth as Schreiner:

    …There [in Rom. 8:23], as here, the Spirit attests his presence by the invocation abba, ho pater. ‘When we cry “Abba! Father!” it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God’ (Rom. 8:15f).

    Bottom line: “Papa” does not seem to be in sight here as it’s too informal. Calling Father God “our Father” shows intimacy (non-Christians can’t call the 1st member of the Trinity “Father”) but also the respect He rightfully deserves.

  564. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    gathered with our small group of believers here tonight and it was very very good. very simple. very encouraging.

    we gathered – we sang songs – different ones shared things on their heart – some music – some words of encouragement – bro. ron brought a very Biblical message pertaining to ‘prayer’ – very sound and very uplifting. we gathered together to pray for needs and we sang and worshiped some more…..

    i’m with you, barry. i think we DEFINITELY need to gather together with sincere believers IF we possibly can…….the LORD does work in us and through us by HIS body and i find when we gather together with these few that my heart is moved more and more FOR them – to care – to pray for them – to help them if i can. and i realize that the LORD is working in me even through my love for them. they are a pretty ‘simple’ group – not fancy, not affluent, some are indians and oh, how they SING to Him.

    i hope and pray (we do all the time) that the LORD keeps this precious group of people on the right path, but, whatever comes, i’m grateful for what i am learning through this time.

  565. debylynne Sep 30th 2012


  566. Anna, there are many good, solid, Bible teaching churches in Redding, CA. Little Country Church (a large body), Neighborhood Church and others–you can look them up on web to see if they appeal to you. God bless.

  567. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    peter h
    you said:
    “But then what has been shared is contentious and will be refuted by those saying otherwise with contempt and ridicule with explanations that this is judgemental”

    i see no need to ‘refute’ you, brother. unless i am misunderstanding something, everything you said seems quite ‘reasonably’ true.

    i have a ‘somewhat’ different slant on it, though. while i believe that all the things you listed will MOST LIKELY continue, i believe that the LORD OUR GOD is drawing to HIMSELF even now, MANY that will truly know Him and love Him and serve Him – i believe there WILL be a ‘harvest’ still to come IN THE VERY MIDST of the GREAT FALLING AWAY. this is OUR GOD and HE WILL DO GREAT THINGS….

    i believe it is happening right now – all over this world there are people drawing near to the TRUE gospel of Jesus Christ – they are not being drawn into the lies and the foolishness – the ‘warning cry’ HAS reached many even while others REFUSE to leave the ‘party’……..but, i believe that MOST that are responding to the ‘true gospel’ are, of course, NEW believers – not these that have flocked to the purpose driven/new age/charismania shores – no – there are REAL ‘missionaries’ out there and they ARE reaching the lost with the gospel….so i don’t see things in quite the same measure of ‘bleakness’ that you seem to – i have a HOPE and a CONFIDENCE in my heart that even as it grows darker and darker – the LORD will raise up LIGHT.

  568. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    wanda – THANK YOU for giving anna some direction – i don’t know anything about that area and was so hoping someone could help her :-)

  569. Nicole Sep 30th 2012

    To all who have blogged today/tonight, may the Glory of our Lord , Jesus Christ, be w/ you and may He continue to reign Forever in your hearts. May we each continue to worship and glorify HIM in a way that HE would be pleased w/. May our hearts continue to break and be ever so in tuned to the compassions of Christ, our Lord , and yet, be able to speak or to decern in a way that we all know that HE , the Holy Spirit showed us . May we not take lightly anything that looks “suspicious ” and question things even if we end up wrong, or hopefully learning something new but most of all, may we each learn not to belittle one another , as no one knows it all.

    I don’t know about you all, but it is well after 10 p.m. and I can remember the nights I would stay up late and just write and write and early morning wake up did not bother me, but somehow, now adays, boy does that dog know when it is time for him to go out.!!!!!!

    Here is another Charles Spurgeon writing. I also love T.A. Sparks. (I had to grow into him!!!! but now I so love what he says and so often it is as if he wrote it in todays time!!!)


    Be Watchful!

    Pastor Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834-1892)

    “Blessed is he that watcheth [remains alert].” – Revelation 16:15b

    “We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed;

    we are perplexed, but not in despair;

    persecuted, but not forsaken;

    struck down, but not destroyed—

    always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus,

    that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.”

    2 Corinthians 4:8-10

    “We die daily,” said the apostle.

    This was the life of the early Christians; they went everywhere with their lives in their hands. [Most of us are not yet] called to pass through the same fearful persecutions. But if we were, the Lord would give us grace to bear the test. The tests of Christian life, at the present moment, though outwardly not so terrible, are yet more likely to overcome us than even those of the fiery age.

    We have to bear the sneer of the world – that is little: its blandishments, its soft words, its oily speeches, its fawning, its hypocrisy, are far worse. Our danger is lest we grow rich and become proud, lest we give ourselves up to the fashions of this present evil world, and lose our faith. Or if wealth be not the trial, worldly care is quite as mischievous. If we cannot be torn in pieces by the roaring lion, we may be hugged to death by the bear. The devil little cares which it is, so long as he destroys our love for Christ, and our confidence in him.

    I fear that the Christian church is far more likely to lose her integrity in soft and silken days than in those rougher times. We must be awake now, for we… are most likely to fall asleep to our own undoing, unless our faith in Jesus be a reality, and our love to Jesus a vehement flame.

    Many in these days of easy profession are likely to prove tares, and not wheat; hypocrites with fair masks on their faces, but not the true-born children of the living God. Christian, do not think that these are times in which you can dispense with watchfulness or with holy ardor; you need these things more than ever, and may God the eternal Spirit display his omnipotence in you, that you may be able to say, in all these softer things, as well as in the rougher,

    “We are more than conquerors through him that loved us.”

    Source: Morning and Evening by Charles Haddon Spurgeon

    “I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord…. that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.”

    Philippians 3:8-11

  570. debylynne Sep 30th 2012

    thank you so much, nicole. what a blessing this is to read – what a warning – what an encouragement.

  571. ValleyAnt Sep 30th 2012


    On calling God variants of ‘Father’, it’s really a matter of one’s heart. A hypocritical pastor Pharisee calls God ‘Father’, and a toddler, wide-eyed in wonder, calls God ‘Baba'; which one of these is justified before God, and which name will He acknowledge for Himself? He will receive the toddler and the name ‘Baba’, because the toddler’s HEART is right. The Bible says everything we eat (including, at that time, food that was questionable) is good IF eaten with thanksgiving (i.e. a right heart). The names we call God are all good IF they come from right hearts, because, as Paul says in 1Cor. 12, no one speaking by the Spirit can curse God. (However, if our names for God cause another Christian or even unbelievers to stumble, then we refrain from using those names around those who stumble and use them when alone or around others who accept those names.)

    Jesus made it clear that certain conditions must be met for one to be His friend (vice-versa), but if a little child (small and without any merit) called that Ancient of Days ‘Friend’, He wouldn’t stick to His rule but would submit to this child’s name for Him (as parents do for their children), because He knows the child’s HEART is right. The problem today is that so few hearts are right at using the widely-accepted term ‘Father’ that it’s reasonable to doubt the sincerity of those who call God ‘Dad, Daddy, Papa’, etc. Those ‘Abba names’ are for intimacy, and most intimacy goes on behind closed doors; most couples don’t tell everyone about their intimate lives, and Micah 6:8 tells us to in the same way “walk HUMBLY (quietly, without performance, not telling everyone about our relationship) with God.”

    I have heard people use those ‘Abba names’ for God, and they usually were insincere (which is almost always a given when you advertise your intimacy in broad daylight and want others to know how much you supposedly love God). Jesus says on addressing God, “When you pray, say, ‘Our Father IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED is Your Name”; and God agrees on the matter by saying, “By those who come near Me, I must be regarded as HOLY; and before all the people, I must be glorified” (Lev. 10:3). People who don’t regard God as holy don’t mind using ‘Abba names’, and I haven’t yet seen the use of these names bring God glory. It appears, then, that only little children and those truly ignorant (like the mentally retarded or heavily demonized, etc.) or innocent can address and approach God without reverence and be justified, not those who say, ‘Abba, Father’ and believe that by calling Him ‘Lord, Lord’, they are automatically justified as and proven to be His Children. With that, goodnight from here in the States, and God bless everyone.

  572. Deby & All,

    I have had something on my heart for the past day, or so. I’m not sure if I will be able to express it in text well enough for you to understand…but here goes…

    I think it is VERY important that sites like Andrew’s are readily available to counter all the other junk that is infiltrating the Body of Christ. You have no idea just how thankful my husband and I are for this site, and the things we’ve learned so far!

    As a side note,just to testify how happy we are,my husband and I may be transferred to another city here soon. We HAD our sights on a particular church…the Pastors are very well known. NOW, after all our readings and discussions here, we are SO grateful we learned of this stuff BEFORE we started attending. Mind you we BOTH had a check in our spirits about the place..(attended once) but who knows if we’d have pressed past it all, and thought it was just us? Reading here, probably spare us a HEAP of heartache.

    Back to what I wanted to say……….
    I think that sometimes in our attempt to chase down the heresy.. what did someone on here call it?? “Heresy Hunters”?? :) I think that sometimes, just sometimes, we can get ourselves in that place where we are not focusing on Jesus, anymore. We’re focusing on all the bad doctrine and in essence, the evil that is happening, rather than on God. I don’t exactly know how we balance the two, but I do know that when I personally get in that place where I am overwhelmed with everything, I just have to step back a little and ask the Lord where I veered off the path, a little. “Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.”
    When I am in this state, I am not in peace. I’m agitated. I am defensive. I am fearful.

    God was reminding me of something that I learned years ago. When trying to discern the REAL dollar bill, you don’t study the counterfeits, you study the GENUINE. That way you will recognize the real deal, and the counterfeit will also be obvious.

    It’s so apparent to me that at least part of the reason for such error in the body of Christ is because as believers, we don’t know the Word of God!

    I know, so obvious and so simple, but that’s just it! I think the gospel IS simple. It’s we who complicate it!

    The other thing that I have on my heart to say is a little more complicated. I will most likely step on a few tootsies here..but no worries…you are all too far away to throw any tomatoes at me. LOL

    I believe in grace. Not a sloppy grace that says we can do whatever we want and still be right with God. Nope, not that grace at all! But, at the very same time, I cannot EARN God’s righteousness!

    My righteousness is as filthy rags. Nothing I could do for Him would add one thing, to the finished work of the cross. I don’t know about any of you, but when I start to panic over all this stuff, I get busy doing good works. I TRY in my own strength to earn the favor of God. I start to loop off this, cut out that, and denounce and reject and stand firm and panic and stress and panic and stress! I get fearful and start over reacting!

    It’s all works. It’s all DL’s attempt to make myself righteous! I am not trusting in GOD’s ability to lead me, guide me, cleanse and sanctify me. I’m not getting alone with God and the Bible and ASKING HIM what my next move is in relation to what I’ve learned.. NOPE I am doing it all on my own!

    Oh, I’d completely deny it, if ever said it to me, when I was doing it. But the truth is that’s exactly what I am doing.

    He spoke to me today in the midst of all my mental gymnastics. He simply said to me: “It is finished”. It turned me completely around. It shocked me actually. It’s FINISHED??? “But Lord!!” “Don’t you see what is happening in YOUR church???!” “I need to panic for YOU, don’t you get it!!??”

    He does see and HE gets it and HE is in control. He died on a cross to redeem us. He raised was from the dead after 3 days. He sits at the right hand of the Father, and from there, He is completely in control of everything. He knows exactly what He’s doing and He knows exactly who are His own. I need to keep focused on that fact, and not on all the junk? amen??

  573. Foolhardy Fred Sep 30th 2012

    Modern Heresy Timeline
    The Flow of Current Heretical Beliefs
    E.W. Kenyon 1886-1948
    Father of the Word of Faith Movement
    Franklin Hall, William Branham, George Warnock
    Fathers of the Latter Rain/Manifest Sons of God/Kingdom Now Movements

    1946 Frankin Hall wrote “Atomic Power with God Through Prayer & Fasting”Gordon Lindsay’s “Voice of Healing” newsletter and Thomas & Evelyn’s Wyatt’s worldwide radio broadcasts spread his fasting message. Major Ministers Impacted by Franklin’s Hall teachings
    Gordon Lindsey

    Oral Roberts

    William Branham

    A.A. Allen

    W.V. Grant (senior)

    Tommy Hicks

    Dr. Waltrip (Katherine Khulman’s husband)

    Kenneth Hagin
    Word of Faith Movement 1967-1985

    Kenneth Hagin starts Rhema Bible Training Center in Tulsa and is responsible for launching 1,000’s of Word of Faith Churches and Ministries globally. Main center for propagation of Word of Faith Doctrines
    Post World War II Healing Revival Sweeps America & the World 1946-1967
    William Branham

    A.A. Allen

    Oral Roberts

    Little David Walker

    Katherine Khulman

    T.L. Osborn

    Buddy Harrison
    (Kenneth Hagin’s son-in-law)

    Founder Harrison House Publisher, main publisher of Word of Faith doctrines

    Pastor of Faith Christian Fellowship Church (FCF).

    FCF Tulsa serves as the “covering” for 100’s of FCF congregations worldwide, all of which teach Word of Faith doctrines
    1947 William Branham’s ministry was beginning to be widely accepted until his death in 1965. Coined phrase “Latter Rain”
    Kenneth & Gloria Copeland
    (got initial tapes of Hagin from Buddy Harrison) De-facto leader of current Word of Faith Movement
    North Battleford Saskatchewan
    1947 George Hawtin & Percy Hunt run the Sharon Orphanage: Read F. Hall’s book & see Branham’s ministry. Fast & Pray according to Hall’s principals for one year and begin to teach Hall’s principles at their Bible School. Elim Bible Institute also is teaching Restoration at this time with no apparent connection with N. Battleford.

    Other Word of Faith Proponents
    Jerry Savelle (Copeland’s disciple)

    Jesse Duplantis

    Norval Hayes (Lester Sumrall disciple)

    Charles Capps (ordained by Copeland)

    Marilyn Hickey

    Robert Tilton

    Benny Hinn (Assembly of God )

    Discipleship/Shepherding Movement

    Derek Prince (Florida)

    Don Basham

    Juan Ortega (Argentina)

    Ralph Martin (Word of God Community)

    “Covering” concept, Authoritative rule
    June 1948 George Hawtin teaches on the Restoration of Apostles & Prophets to the Body of Christ to the Sharon Assembly. That same year Israel becomes a nation again.
    February 11, 1948, young woman prophesies at great revival is about to take place at the school

    Television Ministries Rise
    Trinity Broadcast Network
    Paul & Jan Crouch

    World’s largest Christian television network disseminating Word of Faith Teachings & Kingdom Now Teachings globally – showcases Benny Hinn’s crusades

    Praise the Lord Television Network

    Jim & Tammy Bakker

    Christian Broadcasting Network

    Pat Robertson (Kingdom Now Proponent)
    July 7-18 1948 Sharon camp meeting, 1000’s attend and the teachings of the Latter Rain begin to be widely taught among Pentecostals. Including doctrine of laying on of hands for Holy Ghost Baptism, Apostles & Prophets, Present Day Truth concept, Ascension Gifts,
    1949 George Warnock begins to teach on the “Restoration of all things” involved with Sharon Brethren
    1951 George Warnock publishes “Feast of Tabernacles” a manual for Latter Rain Doctrines & Practices
    1956 Assembly of God begins to denounce Latter Rain Doctrines as Heretical and movement dies down
    Latter Rain Doctrines Become Prominent Again in Word of Faith & Kingdom Now Ministries
    Some of the Modern Day Prophets & Apostles
    (Restoration of the Ascension Gifts)

    Kenneth Hagin – Apostle/Prophet

    Kenneth Copeland – Prophet

    Paul Cain – Prophet (past associate of William Branham)

    Frank Hammond – Prophet (largely responsible for Prophetic Movement & started “School of the Prophets”)

    Bernard Jordan – Prophet

    Rick Joyner – Prophet

    Bob Jones – Prophet (Vineyard Church)

    Alan Vincent – Apostle

    Turnel Nelson – Apostle

    Jefferson Edwards – Apostle/Prophet

    Prophetic Movement
    (1985-1991- ongoing)

    Frank Hammond

    Bernard Jordan

    Rick Joyner

    Kansas City Five Prophets
    Apostolic Movement

    Archbishop Earl Paulk

    Archbishop Benson Idahosa

    Alan Vincent

    Turnel Nelson

    Signs & Wonders
    Benny Hinn Ministries

    Mehesh Chavda

    Morris Cerello

    Rodney Howard Browne

    Toronto Airport Church

    (formerly Toronto Vineyard)
    Vineyard Church Movement
    John Wimber

    Laughing Movement
    Rodney Howard Brown

    Randy Clark John Arnott (Toronto Vineyard)

    From Toronto Airport Church to various churches world-wide

    This chart is the property of Rev. R. Liichow

  574. Foolhardy Fred Sep 30th 2012

    Hello DL.

    We do. of course, need to focus on what is true and good. However so many friends and family members have forfeited what I had once believed to be saving faith to follow after the nonsense taught by people and organisations such as those referred to in this chart that I am convinced we are involved in wholesale war.

    Not only is this spiritual war for the eternal salvation of our deluded friends and family members but it is for our own eternal destiny as well.

    A good soldier knows his enemy and unfortunately that is what we are required to do at this time in order to remain free from his snares.

    Although wholeheartedly committed to the Word of God my wife and I are trying as hard as we can to remain faithful to His Word until the Judgement Day. By knowing much of what the enemy of our souls has used to deceive others with we are equipping ourselves for the extreme vigilance we know is required.

    “Resist the devil and he will flee from you.”

    It saddens us greatly to see our deluded relatives and friends falsely referring to themselves as “christians” when we know they have sold out to the occultic new age religions referred to above in one form or another.

    As the Apostle Paul warned, “Hold fast to the traditions you have been taught by Word or by our epistle.”

  575. Fred, I completely agree with you that we need to be sober and realize that we are in all out, war! We aren’t to be lulled to sleep thinking that ‘all is well’, when it clearly is not.

    I was afraid that I wasn’t able to communicate clearly what I wanted to do. What I was trying to say was that WE cannot do anything in our own strength’s to win this war. All our own efforts, however valiant, will not bring the victory. “It is not by might or by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord!”

    I’m afraid I am still not explaining myself as well as I could. I just want to caution myself (especially) that we aren’t trusting in anything, but the finished work of the cross to get us over the finish line!

  576. Well that’s what I thought. The old saying goes “the Church is perfect, until you arrived”. I understand the need to be discerning & avoid deception, but all I see on here is people pointing out the marks in God’s bride: the body of Christ.
    Bitter, judgemental, finger pointing people. Instead of spending your time on here picking faults in the leaders of the body of Christ, why not find a Church near you & make a difference in it. Or start your own Church.
    I’d rather see the work that is being done through many of the leaders named on here, then get involved in the fruitless banter that goes on here.
    Get off the bandwagon & be the change in society Jesus has called you to be. The kind of disunity, backstabbig & bitterness that goes on here, is Exactly what turns non-Christians off.

  577. Barry Koe Sep 30th 2012

    FoolHardy Fred,
    What about Peter Wagner ? He confirms and bless them all into the Elijah list like a pope.

  578. Andrew Sep 30th 2012

    “DECEPTION” is the hallmark of the Last days – according to Jesus. And it will be “seductive” and capable of even deceiving CHRISTIANS.

    That alone makes it worthwhile to have a discussion like this, don’t you think?

    Or would you rather see the Bride of Christ deceived?

    Bless you!


  579. DeWayne Sep 30th 2012

    I am getting the picture painted of church, it resembles a snack bar, perhaps that is why so many Americans are becoming obese

  580. All the deception presented has one common thread I have to do something (1) in order to save pride (face), (2) in order to gain something, in order to become a god or some ruling person, to have some kind of power to do great things ( something to stand in awe of)
    Whereas the cross of Christ requires that I lose myself and gain Christ
    It is he who abides in Christ that remains save so maybe this is the goal we need to set, that we seek God to teach us to abide in Christ so we are no longer easily led by deception

  581. We are accustomed to be measured and have importance in what we can produce, accomplish, position, knowledge
    but God places value (importance) in faithfulness and obedience

  582. Foolhardy Fred Sep 30th 2012

    Amen to that Simon. Faithfulness and obedience to His Word are the criteria by which we will be judged on the judgement day. The apostate will not even be there.

    Obesity comes from a poor diet and lack of exercise and the apostate church is indeed dishing up a poor diet and discouraging the spiritual exercise of discernment.

    We also have a form of spiritual promiscuity which is often referred to as pragmatic compromise in terms of a willingness to embrace anything that might appear to be successful in a spiritual sense the way a business man might embrace new ideas to revitalise his business.

    The so called new thing is really the old sin that satan deceived eve into in the garden of eden. Challenging the Word of God accepting false teaching and false teachers is the same as spiritual adultery in the eyes of God and will eventually result in eternal damnation just as will disobedience in the physical sense.

    This spiritual promiscuity is why what the committed bible believing christian is witnessing in these last days is well described as spiritual syphilis.

    Syphilis ultimately results in madness and in my analogy spiritual syphilis has lead to madness in those prepared to embrace these occultic new age hybrid religions as they have become so deluded they are unable to see that their false religion bears NO resemblance whatsoever to christianity.

    This fraud is what I find so particularly offensive about this great apostasy. I accept that people have the right to believe whatever they want to believe and to engage in whatever religious practices they want to engage in.

    That these people then present themselves and their religion as being in any way related to christianity is not only offensive to the committed bible believing christian it is nothing short of FRAUD.

  583. Foolhardy Fred Sep 30th 2012

    May I suggest

    Anointing – or Apostasy?
    The Latter Rain Legacy
    Charles S. Graves

    as one of the most informative articles about the Latter Rain heresy I have read.

    Also Barry Koe you are quite right of course. I have mentioned Wagner and his cohorts a number of times. Nothing is more overtly apostate than his NAR. I am absolutely disgusted to think that anybody has been deceived into forfeiting their salvation because of the teachings of this man.

    How desperate to disobey and rebel from God must some people be.

  584. Barry Koe Sep 30th 2012

    I am no scholar but I don’t seen to be concerned about the debates on when the rapture will take place. I am more concerned about false and heretical teachings and practices of mysticism , new age, emergents,and WOF. Bur pre trib or mid or post, we will find out sooner or later and we will be on whichever trip they turn out to be. Important thing is make sure we have the ticket all paid for by our Lord on Calvary.
    Anyway is your concern to an extent that you feel pretrib is a serious and heretical doctrinal flaw that will rob one of salvation ?

    Anyway GTY website takes feedback seriously. A few years ago they actually thanked me and changed the title of an article due to my feedback where I thought the title glorifies John MacArthur. I am amazed they actually listened.

  585. @Andrew.
    Yes I agree, deception needs to be addressed. But I still stand by my comments. If you were to measure the fruits & benefits of what goes on here, realistically, would there really be a lot?
    I hate to be a pessimist, but there ain’t a lot. I respect & admire your passion to bring correction to the body of Christ, but this isn’t going to bear fruit long term.
    All it does is encourages division & a lack of respect for leadership & those in authority.
    Jesus loves his Church- the bride of Christ & according to his word, is more then capable of bringing judgement where judgement needs to be brought & those who preach the gospel, will be held to strict account:
    Isn’t that enough of a burden for leaders of the body of Christ to bear, without the knowledge of blogs such as this tearing down & criticising their every move.

    Currently in Australia there are over 13000 pastors out of ministry, more then there are in it. I wonder why?
    Be blessed, I know you have God’s best intentions at heart.

  586. Foolhardy Fred Sep 30th 2012


    Belonging to a church engaging in these doctrines of demons will lead to eternal damnation

    2 Corinthians 6

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

    2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

    3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

    4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

    5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;

    6 By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

    7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

    8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

    9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

    10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

    11 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.

    12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.

    13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.

    14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

    15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

    16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

    18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

  587. Foolhardy Fred Sep 30th 2012

    I feel that many people have been made more aware of the Great Apostasy that has overrun what was previously christianity Mick.

    We must try in everyway possible to provide an opportunity for people to hear the Word of God and respond by repenting of these false teachings and returning to Biblical christianity which alone has power to save.

    Many millions of people are going to hell falsely believing they are saved. Our efforts to warn people will be rewarded by God on the Judgement day. What the deluded choose to do with the warnings is entirely up to them.

  588. Foolhardy Fred Sep 30th 2012

    Jesus loves HIS True church ONLY. His Word repeatedly warns of the great falling away and the Great Apostasy we are witnessing in these last days.

    We must do all that we can to provide the Word of God for the deluded to respond to.

    Sadly many false leaders and heretical and apostate Pastors remain in ministry Mick and this is a genuine threat to the salvation of multitudes.

    The Apostate church is ultimately under the leadership of Satan.

    Will the Lord find faith in the earth when HE returns?

    Only if the committed Bible believing christian remains faithful to HIS Word.

  589. In the heart of man there lies a love of its own importance, it has placed its pride in itself believing that it is perfect and without flaw.
    Because of this he is vulnerable to deception.
    In my generation we were taught we will never be perfect, we will never be good enough, are capabilities are limited, failure happens whether we like it or not. The teaching method may not have been the best, but the points of the lesson hit home. Today the opposite is true men are told the are perfect and can do no wrong.
    The radical change need is not more preaching but dying, dying to the understanding of our perfection ( which never existed) dying to our foolish pride in ourselves our knowledge for it is these very things that cause us to argue and stumble. We have run away from what was taught (our imperfection) needs to be embraced so that our opinion of ourselves lines up with the word of God. For what caused Satan to rebel, by believing he was perfect and complete in himself and didn’t need God. So this is the root of sin a believe we can do everything without God because we are perfect in ourselves. How far from the way God created us when imperfect without Him incomplete without Him.
    It is this draw to be important that gets us every time and so we fall and get hurt.
    It is our own importance that does not allow us to consider others better than ourselves
    the teaching of self-esteem or self importance that needs to be removed from our understanding for in reality all we can produce will never be good enough.
    ( whether yesterday, today or the future)
    Unless we place our pride in Christ rather than in ourselves we will continue the same course as we do now always trying to prove we are better than someone else.

  590. Hi there,

    I notice Derek Prince (Florida) in the heresy timeline…

    Forgive my ignorance but how did he earn this infamous position.


    Carl Emerson.

  591. 2 Peter 2:18- “by speaking arrogant words they (those who teach deceptive doctrines) entice people BY FLESHLY DESIRES AND BY SENSUALITY…”

    While it is important to recognize deceptive teaching it is more important to recognize WHY WE ARE DECIEVED BY IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
    Peter tells us it is OUR OWN FLESHLY DESIRES AND SENSUALITY that entices us to false doctrine in the first place.
    I hear a lot of finger pointing and blame shifting towards the false prophets and false teachers but where is the humility and the repentance that God is calling for??? God is still waiting for the church to ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR HER SINS OF SENSUALITY, SELFISH AMBITION AND WORLDLY DESIRES THAT CAUSED HER TO INDULGE IN and listen to the appeals and worldly promises that were used by the false teachers in the first place.

    The reason many on this site are still angry, fearful, paranoid , grumpy AND OVER SENSE- I – tive IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE YET TO OWN ADMIT TO, REPENT OF AND TAKE FULL RESPOSNSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN SENS- U- ALITY that caused them to be DECIEVED in the first place.

  592. I am a 71year old christian. Gave my life to the Lord when i was 9years old. Then thats when satan nearly distroyed me. When i was 1year old, my church gave me a birthday card. on that card was Numbers 6:24 The Lird bless you & keep you. He kept me even when i wasn`t waskilg with Him. He saved me from hell.
    I say all that to say this, I have friends who think Bill Jhonson is great & what disturbs me is when they pray & intercede they go into all this stouting & laughing & falling about and what i can only call cavorting about. They are (i believe they are totally convinced that this is normal,Godley behaviour when it`s not) They wouldn`t listen to any criticism from me. They are great people, but misled. I have always been wary of these things. I`m not making myself better than them,it`s because i love them. These things arn`t in the bible. God is the same yesterday, today & always. His word never changes, it`s the same yesterday, today & forever. I`m not saying im perfict by any means, I fall but i get back up again & ask for His forgiveness. Please keep on exposing the work of the devil. God bless you.Andrew.

  593. Foolhardy Fred Sep 30th 2012

    Hello Carl.

    With regard to Derek Prince, particular reference his made to his involvement in the very controversial and much criticised shepherding movement. History shows that the shepherding movement began when four well-known Charismatic teachers, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Charles Simpson, and Don Basham, responded to a moral failure in a charismatic ministry in South Florida. Witnessing this failure, the four men felt mutually vulnerable without greater accountability structures in their lives.[citation needed] They also felt the charismatic movement was becoming individualistic and subjective. These realizations, led them to mutually submit their lives and ministries to one another.[citation needed] Ern Baxter was later added to the core leadership of the group, and they became known as the “Fort Lauderdale Five.”

    “A less known sixth associate was John Poole. Together these individuals formed the organization that would be ‘the center of one of the most violent controversies (i.e., the Discipleship/Shepherding controversy) in Protestant charismatic history,’ Christian Growth Ministries (CGM), headquartered in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.”

    Their relationships, and the doctrines which they began to emphasize in support and definition of these relationships, gained wide approval, as they addressed a strongly felt three-fold need of many in the burgeoning charismatic movement: greater accountability, stronger character development, and deeper relationships. Other Charismatic ministers and some Pentecostal began to submit to the authority of the Ft. Lauderdale Five. The vertical, descending, “chain-of-command” the five ministers were successful in establishing —
    “was a pyramid-shaped, multi-tiered organizational structure, which had at the top echelon of the pyramid (it just so happened) none other than the Fab Five themselves, who claimed (conveniently) to be in “submission” to each other, which arrangement, they purported, acted as a fail-safe “checks and balance” system to totally preclude them from falling prey to the corruptive properties of absolute power to which, historically, so many others (albeit, less spiritual than they, of course) succumbed.”

    At the zenith of the pseudo-movement, “They had a national network of followers who formed pyramids of sheep and shepherds. Down through the pyramid went the orders, it was alleged, while up the same pyramid went the tithes.” The relationships that were formed became known theologically as “covenant relationships.”

    A network of cell groups were formed. Members had to be submitted to a “shepherd”, who in turn was submitted to the Five or their subordinates. “…large numbers of charismatic pastors began to be shepherded by the CGM leaders, a development that went uncharted but not unnoticed. It was uncharted because these relationships were personal and not institutional, so there were never any published lists of pastors and congregations being shepherded by CGM leaders….” At its height, an estimated 100,000 adherents across the US were involved in the networks

    Some of the early leaders of the movement came out of Campus Crusade for Christ, but Crusade itself did not embrace it. Other movements influenced by the Shepherding doctrine were the Shiloh houses scattered across the USA (some of them transitioned into Calvary Chapels when they abandoned the shepherding movement ideas), International Churches of Christ, Maranatha Campus Ministries, and Great Commission International (today known as Great Commission Ministries/Great Commission Association of Churches). The movement emphasized the importance of a network of accountability within church members, with many individuals acting as personal pastors to others. In many cases, shepherding relationships existed outside the bounds of individual churches, leading to the unusual situation of a church member being accountable not to others in his/her church, but someone outside the church.

    Criticism and controversy

    The movement gained a reputation for controlling and abusive behaviour, with a great deal of emphasis placed upon the importance of obedience to one’s own shepherd. In many cases, disobeying one’s shepherd was tantamount to disobeying God. A few of these criticisms were exaggerated, but many lives were damaged.

    One such testimony can be found in the book Damaged Disciples by Ron and Vicki Burks. Noted Baptist evangelist Bailey Smith, for example, in his work “Real Evangelism” mentions having collected a very large number of testimonies of people he had encountered who were damaged by Shepherding teachings.

    This sort of mentality probably had an impact on my own observations and experiences of the teachings regarding following “anointed ones without question or you will be hurt.” This demonic doctrine exists to this very day I believe.

  594. Hi Fred,
    I was under the impression that Derek Prince renounced and publicly repented for his involvement in the Discipleship Movement. I believe this should be noted and emphasized. I don’t believe it’s fair to his credit, to not mention that part!

  595. ok foolhardyfred , you better show where Derek Prince taught things that can be proven to contradict clear bible teaching or take back your heresy label. It is slander if you can not show that Derek taught things that oppose what is written in the word of God.

  596. Find errors in others always avoids finding errors in ourselves. When we are busy looking to blame others for our errors and pain, or pointing out this or that person fell are we not in reality saying we have also fallen?
    Who can stand before almighty God and claim he is without error? Must I then justify myself before others as knowing better?
    The issue at hand is not who has fallen but that we are all vulnerable to fall into the same kind of error and sin and sooner or latter we will find ourselves too partaking of the same failure.
    What ever teacher you blame for getting you or others into the mess, the blame lies squarely on our own shoulder for we didn’t consult God but our own wisdom and simply excepted what was taught was right.

  597. Amen Simon, well said!

  598. Simon, don’t take this the wrong way but you need some fire in your bones. I pray that you will find it

    Jeremiah 20:9

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    9 But if I say, “I won’t think about him,
    I won’t speak in his name any more,”
    then it seems as though a fire
    is burning in my heart,
    imprisoned in my bones;
    I wear myself out
    trying to hold it in,
    but I just can’t do it.

  599. Matt 7:22, 23
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Speaking of false prophets, heretics. Something concerns me. The scripture clearly says “I NEVER KNEW YOU”. Not, “You were ONCE a BELIEVER”. These are people that have NEVER come in through the ONLY door of Jesus Christ. They are unbelievers, who THINK they are saved. But, there are, I believe, TRUE believers in deception that have yet to come out and repented of these things. (yet) God knows His own, and He will bring them out. I believe this!

    Please, let’s not be a stumbling block to our brothers and sisters. When we start to call out TRUE brethren and paint them with the same brush, what hope is there for anyone?

    I am just concerned that though the path that leads to God IS narrow, that “we” are making it IMPOSSIBLE to even repent and turn.

    That’s my concern.

  600. JeffM please grow up your remakes are unwelcome for they say you have a big problem with pride

  601. PS my comment was with regard to brothers like Derek Prince and also other people that we we all believe to be SINCERE, but sincerely wrong, at the moment. NOT the likes of this whole false Charismatic movement..duly noted at nauseum, on this thread!

  602. Sigh……..I’m off this thread. This is silliness.

  603. Dl , we do need to be accurate, as in how does Jesus see a person or we do more harm than good. The so-called cure we think we have can be as bad as the poison.

  604. Simon, too late , I already prayed for you and it is in The Father’s hands now. God has a way of getting what He wants.

  605. Martin Sep 30th 2012

    JeffM and Simon, perhaps it would be better if you confined your exchanges to an email correspondence.

  606. Nicole Sep 30th 2012

    Gee, this thing went really downhill in many ways, after I signed off.

    I think I have said it all on this website. It has been a good learning topic and a good way to bring truth and observation to the forefront.

    We all need to be aware. And other topics that need to be discussed are the dominion theology/ Nar groups, Emergent Chruches that are creeping up all over the place and the so called christian new age chruches that we basically have been discussing already .

    You can retitle all of these to mean the same – delusion and disgust and waxed cold and

    I think DL said she hopes to see many come out. Some one said it. I say it too. All these folks will not remain in the churches and God will expose the truth, but there will be many truly left behind. It will be the ones that has HIS HEART and LOVE for HIM, rather than self, fame, fortune or ANY OTHER IDOLS. and you know, we all have our little pet toys we love . Try going w/o them for a week and see how dependent you had become on them.

    In ending , I will say, DEREK PRINCE was a human being. HE had flaws like the rest of us and he had error in some of his teaching BUT I know for a fact that he repented for being part of the The Shepparding Group that misled folks for years.

    This discussion was on Andrew’s forum when he had it and D.Prince was the only one to my knowledge that actually repented, renounced and also asked for forgiveness.

    I have other things to do, may God bless each of you, and I will check from time to time on this blog.

    Andrew, I hope you bring forth other articles such as this , just to bring attention to all the stuff that is going on.

    In Christ,

  607. This blog is open to the public and all kinds of people with different views are going to post things. It is as open to mixture as the world we live in is. My point is that this how a church meeting that is open to the public will always be inviting mixture in. It can never be the biblical meeting together of Christ’s believers if it is a public forum.

  608. watchful Sep 30th 2012

    Our flesh wants excitement and calls it fire, but isn’t that what got the church into the mess it’s in now. In quietness and rest is our salvation, amen..

  609. Martin Sep 30th 2012

    Amen indeed, Watchful.

  610. watchful, as I see it the mess is because the word shows meetings of believers as private ( not public) meetings and making them public invites in all kinds things to a place they don’t belong. If we just point out all the mixture without returning to the biblical (private ) meeting together of believers it will all just keep happening again.

  611. As shared before the mess is simply because we know to much for our own good

  612. Peter H Sep 30th 2012

    For JeffM to say to Simon that he needs some fire in his bones is typical of the false teachers and prophets promoting heretical doctrines from Catch the Fire ministries.
    Foolhardy Fred has already explained the people behind
    such movements which are nothing but apostate, fraud, and steering people away from our Heavenly Father into a counterfiet gospel which has taken hold of the modern day western church.
    Yes, I do agree in that He will pour out His spirit to those listening to Him, to His instructions, and are obendient to Him alone. Having said that, Lucifer will pour out his demonic spirit as a counterfeit to the Holy Spiirit to delude and enter those entertaining spiritual phenomenon of all kinds resulting in deception, a fallling away from God Almighty, and apostosy which the Body of Christ is discerning and which has come to the forefront of our discussions.
    As well as preaching the Good News to everyone, we need to warn about false teachings, doctrines, and prophecies which have nothing to do with the Word of God. Are we watchmen or not? If we know about the wolves masqerading as sheep within the christian church and fail to warn, then the blood will be upon our shoulders for not doing so.
    How much we wish to play tennis with scripture to score points, we become fools in doing so because this is what cults such as the Roman Catholic Church, the Watchtower Society, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints do with unsuspecting recruits and their members.
    I came out from amongst those who have gained control of christian broadcasting, radio, and the church system who wished to control my wife and I and poison our minds with false doctrine and dressed up occult practices to be of the Holy Spirit. Not saying that such leaderships brings disrepute to christianity and we should not expose their falsenesses and fraudulant behaviour, dishonours our Heavenly Father and brings mockery to the Word of God.
    When these folk belittle Father God by using terms such as “dad”, “daddy” and “pappa” which has been going on in the charismatic movement for sometime, then then will get in the habit calling the RC clergy father this and that to give respect. After all. this is what many charismatics and ecumenicals do in embracing the RC Church as part of the christian church.
    Just look around for yourself for the evidence which is trhere to see. Or like with so many, remain blinkered wearing rose coloured tinted specticles.
    Such movements, cults, and the church system will turn eventually on those following Christ believing that they are doing God a favour.
    If error is error and false is false, these should not be hidden from either christians or non christians. If I had continued on the path of deception, I would be joining those falling away.
    The parable of the sower is paramount to those seeking Truth. To deny this leads to self destruction and turmoil.
    Being clap happy in church and playing ignorance to what is going on in and outside of church is treading that broad way and not the straight and narrow.
    Either we are for Christ or do we play the game of religion which so many are engrossed in expecting a blessing from God if we sow our financial seed to so called christian tv channels, to name Inspiration TV as an example. These charlatans behind the broadcasts are fleecing the flock and building their empires in the name of Jesus to deceive christians who are chasing signs and wonders everywhere.
    Is this the world wide revival envisage for the End Times? For truth is truth while false is false how much mutton is dressed up to be lamb!
    You decide!!!!!!!

  613. debylynne Sep 30th 2012


    carl emerson – i was working my way down through all the p