-by Andrew Strom.

I write this as a conservative evangelical Christian. I am anti-abortion and hold all the usual ‘conservative’ views. But I have come to believe that the Tea Party is one of the most misguided and misleading movements in America – especially since it claims to be so “Christian”.

I saw a piece written by pro-Tea Party activist recently who quoted
statistics saying that the majority of Tea Party members are
evangelical Christians. He coined the term, “Teavangelicals”. He
says they are going to have a new Awakening and “Take Back
America”. I don’t know what kind of “Awakening” he is talking
about, but it is very different from the true spiritual Awakenings of
the past. America certainly needs a Revival. But not the kind that
these guys are pushing. I believe it is a counterfeit of the real thing.
And if we fall for the counterfeit, then the true can be utterly lost.

So what exactly is the problem with the “Teavangelicals”? Below
is a very basic list of things that, in my view, make this movement
truly un-Christlike and unchristian:-

(1) -An Unhealthy Mixing of Christianity with Nationalism-.
When you “wrap the cross in the flag” so-to-speak, you instantly
distort the entire message and essence of Christianity. You are
taking two totally different “kingdoms” and mixing them together.
Jesus said: “My kingdom is not of this world.” So in mixing
Christianity with Nationalism, you are totally distorting what His
kingdom truly stands for. Thus you get “Patriotic” actions such
as saluting the flag or the Pledge of Allegiance being seen as
“Christian” things to do. Marching off to war becomes a “Christian”
activity. The two “kingdoms” are being completely confused. There
is a great deal of this happening in the church in America right
now – and the Tea Party is really pushing it. -Utterly distorting
what real Christianity is all about.

(2) -Being Basically the Biggest Supporters of WAR in America-.
(This is closely related to # 1). One US commentator seriously
stated that without the support of the American Christians the war
would be over much quicker – because they are the staunchest
and strongest supporters of War in the whole country. Now, can
you imagine Jesus being like this? Can you imagine Him telling
his disciples, “I want you to support military invasions and the
shooting, killing and destroying of thousands of people”? -Because
that is what WAR is. Does it sound “Christian” to you? Can we
find anywhere in the New Testament where true Christians had
this attitude? NO! They wouldn’t have dreamed of being the biggest
supporters of War in their generation! Just think what a terrible
testimony this is today – to all the unbelievers who are watching.
How un-Christlike. No wonder they call us “War-mongers”.

(3) -Siding with the Rich and Against the Poor-. This is the exact
opposite of Jesus – as we see again and again in the gospels and
the entire New Testament. Pay close attention to the following
words of Christ- “Woe to you that are rich, for you have received
your comfort” (Lk 6:24), “How hard it is for a rich man to enter the
kingdom of heaven” (Mt 19:23) and “You cannot serve God and
Money.” (Mt 6:24). Jesus also said: “Blessed be you poor, for
yours is the kingdom of heaven” (Lk 6:20) and “I have come to
preach good news to the poor” (Lk 4:18).

Can you imagine Jesus coming across like today’s “Tea Party”
Christians – where they seem utterly against the cause of the poor,
and totally for the Rich and the ‘Big Money’ interests? Perhaps we
have forgotten that Big Business exists largely for MAMMON and
GREED. Can anybody tell me anything “Christian” about that?

(4) -HEALTH CARE – Denying it to the Needy-. (-Related to # 3).
I am not talking about “ObamaCare” here. I have no comment on
ObamaCare one way or the other. What I am talking about is a
general attitude amongst Christians. I cannot tell you the number
of emails that I’ve gotten from believers who want to deny poor
uninsured Americans any decent Health Care. (I guess because
they are lower-class and can’t afford it).

Do you know that millions and millions of Americans are being
denied basic Health coverage that is totally taken for granted in
other countries? And that it is the CHRISTIANS who want to deny
it to them? And do you know that there are multitudes of Americans
who wind up bankrupt or losing their home simply because they
can’t pay their medical bills? Does that sound like a “Christian”
ideal to you? Does it sound like something that believers should
be fighting for? -Fighting on the side of Big Business against the
“little people” who can’t afford to pay? What kind of “Christianity” is that?

(5) -Pushing the Idea that “Political” Answers can Solve America’s
Problems-. To me, this is the worst deception of all – the idea that
America’s problems can mainly be solved with “Political” activism,
or a change of government, or a new President. The USA’s problems
are almost entirely SPIRITUAL. It is because she has lost her way
SPIRITUALLY that is causing all the other problems. And to get
the Christians all caught up in a “Political” movement is a total
distraction. A PRAYER movement – Yes! A “Political” movement –
NO! It will not solve the problems in any real way at all. In fact, it
is like a “counterfeit” Awakening – to push the Christians into
Political activism instead of focusing on the SPIRITUAL. It is like
a false savior – a “pseudo” solution. The problems in America are
Spiritual – and they need Spiritual answers. Not this “counterfeit”
that gets everybody caught up in Political fights.

In summary, I want to say that I believe that many of the attitudes
and behaviours of the “Tea Party” evangelicals in America are
totally un-Christlike and unchristian. They come across as ugly,
mean-spirited and anger-filled. It is awful to see real believers
caught up in anything so unlike Jesus.

I would like to challenge every Christian reading this to forward it
to your conservative friends. Tell them to come and meet me here
on our discussion board, if they think they can prove me wrong.
I am open. If they think they can prove from the New Testament
that Christians should be thinking and behaving the way these
“Tea Party” people behave, then let them come. I will be waiting.

God bless you all. – Andrew Strom.

Posted in Articles by Andrew on June 10th, 2012 at 5:14 pm.


380 Replies

  1. Thanks for having the courage to write the above article. It is right on. It is an unpopular subject among the US evangelicals but it is so true. Mixing the gospel with the politics of this world didn’t work during the Middle Ages and it won’t work now. We don’t see ourselves and what is happening to us. Becoming a Christian does not mean joining the Republican party and standing for conservative values which by the way, I stand for but I too have noticed a lack of compassion for the poor that scares me. It seems a shame that the pro-abortion people and those that lack the fear of God’s word are the ones that seemingly have compassion on the poor. This should not be. While I am not a fan of Obama, getting him out of office is not going to cure the fallen state of this country. I get more emails from Christians that is anti-obama than I get about Christ and the gospel. True His kingdom is not of this world. Jesus will return and set up His own kingdom, we are not to do it ahead of time. We can read church history to see that its a “been there and done that” thing. It ruined the gospel the the original apostales preached. Now I see its ruining it again.

  2. I can only agree with a small portion of your comments. Perhaps you should do more study of what is happening here in America. Some of your comments sound so much like the arguments used by the political left. What is happening is spiritual. “The New World Order” is being put in place right before our eyes. But your response to this is not correct as you charge Christian conservatives with being un-Christlike in their actions and attitudes. Your comments are a broad brush painting without detail.

  3. Andrew, this is excellent. Spoken like a true prophet. We have no time in this present age to bother with agendas of nationalism and the like. Jesus Christ is returning and he will set up HIS kingdom which will include every single aspect that we can only dream about. This is where all our energy must go.

  4. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    Sadly, Rod, the “New World Order” is just as likely to be “right wing” as left wing. (eg. Hitler and Mussolini).

    Can we learn from history?

    -Bless you, my friend


  5. Terry Aima Jul 10th 2012

    Sometimes I wonder if Andrew likes anything.

  6. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    Yes I do

    I like icecream

  7. Andrew! Brother – You really overshot this one. You may have spent a few years in the USA, but you obviously don’t understand the founding principles of our nation or the driving force behind the Tea Party Movement.

    Tea Partiers aren’t ‘for big business’ or ‘war’ or ‘oppressing the poor’ or ‘destroying the sick’ – they are against the tyranny of BIG GOVERNMENT and want the Fed to stop the endless march to increase it’s power.

    If you understood the original Tea Party effort in 1773, then you would better understand what the modern Tea Party movement seeks to accomplish.

    I’m not saying they’re “Christian” – but they are definitely not “un-Christian” (in fact, only 40-60% of the party even claims to be Christian) – they’re just not for the Old World Socialism that those of you who still live under the Crown are so pacified by.

    The founders of the USA threw off the shackles of Great Britain for a REASON – because they didn’t want BIG GOVERNMENT dictating every aspect of their lives… something Kiwis, Europeans, and most non-Americans can’t seem to understand.

    I think the only valid points you made were about the unholy matrimony of faith and nationalism and the fact that political action won’t change the “heart” of American. Other than that, I think your article is based on a severe lack of information.

    I suggest you read about the Tea Party from the perspective of those who are IN the Tea Party rather than the perspective of ‘haters’. http://www.teaparty.org/about.php


    Do some more research and get back to us… :)

  8. Brother Strom I think that your article is well written. I will say that the majority of “Christians” are not actually believers. We tend to forget that Jesus was speaking to and of the people of God when He said that broad is the way that leadeth to distruction and many there be that go in thereby and narrow is the path that leadeth unto righteousness and few there be that find it. People consider themselves “Christian” because their parents were “Lutheran” or “Catholic” or of some religion that may seem to use the Bible as the basis of their faith. But they are not necessarily “True Believers.” Jesus said that we would be known by our fruit.

    We are in the world but we are not OF this world and just as Jesus said, OUR kingdom is not of THIS world. I personally believe that if we are concerned about our Father’s business and our Father’s kingdom, OUR rights wouldn’t be all that importatn!

  9. Hi Andrew

    Although based in the UK what you have to share is spot on. In fact many so called evangelicals still believe we can transform Britain with ‘good’ government and new laws. There seems little understanding of the Prophetic Scriptures. Confidence in the Word of God, the finished work of Christ and the all powerful Gospel is at an all time low.

    Incidentally, will we now be hearing from the ‘Tea Party’ that Mormonism is part of mainstream Christian belief after all!

    Jesus said ‘My Kingdom is not of this world.’

    God bless you and family. Hope the way will be made for you to visit us again soon!!


  10. I agree with you pretty much. Mainly because of being a citizen of Heaven and only pledging allegiance to God my king causes me to have an eternal outlook and not a temporary one.
    I believe the Tea Party sends a mixes message out that to be a patriot is to stand for such things as war and the rich while showing that God and country are one. Which in our case is NOT. The case.
    I agree that in the new testament we do not see this exemplified. I believe the best explanation of why the tea party exists, tho misguided is because they want a victorious military defense not just war for the same of war. They seem to side with the rich but in essence want to protect the abiity for people to make money and create jobs for the underprivileged. They cry out about Obamacare because it is an inept at best answer to the need of healthcare reform; one that puts even more government control over such an entity that will in the long run cause more governmental choice over you instead of you having the choice yourself which is why this country was founded. To come out from such tyranny over the people by the bed buddies of religion and politics. All of the above I agree with but see that their representation is fear based against a system and not implementing God through prayer and a daily life that exemplifies what Christ commissioned us to do to actually make a difference. I believe in defending this land in many ways because it was formed at one time for got purpose. It allowed the gospel a freedom as it were to truly be the foundation of the nation but because we as the church fell pray to other belief systems and fear we have represented our cause in such a way. We need to return to godly principles and obedience to Christ,s commission and be the difference once again as the church. The government seeks oppressive rule. The church must be the leader in love and in problem solving with the resources of Heaven behind us.

  11. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    But sadly, Noah, they come across as VERY anti-poor and “pro-rich”.

    Are you saying this is just a miscommunication?

    If so, then it is a very sad and a very LOUD miscommunication.

    They very strongly give the impression that the Christians are against the poor and for the rich.

    That seems pretty sad to me.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  12. This is exactly what happened in the third Reich,,, it is what the supposed christians in Germany fell for,, Lets be blunt , IT IS THE HARLOT WHO RIDES THE POLITICAL BEAST,, we are called out of earthly nations, and should belong to a holy nation, called the KIngdom of Yahweh… Yeshua said we would be hated by ALL ALL ALL NATIONS, for his sake, HE DID NOT SAY, EXCEPT FOR THE UNITED STATES..it is so simple a child can understand, just as the word declares.. those who fall for this political christianity are deluded. we are never given permission to take up the sword against man, BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE, NO MATTER WHERE THEY COME FROM,, CHRISTIANITY IN THIS NATION HAS BECOME THE RICH WHITE MANS RELIGION, and the wise in other nations want nothing to do with it,, God help us all, for the wrath of Yah is coming to america, not a revival..

  13. Sorry, but I don’t buy much of your premises. Yes, there is a difference between things of the spirit and things on earth. But even in the OT, there was a close correlation between God and the Nation. The poor: we are to want to work if we expect to eat, we ought to help the poor OF OUR OWN FREE WILL, and not expect the government to do it. The more prosperous we are and the less taxes we have to pay, the more we can give. This nation is the only one founded on a covenant with God – therefore it has a special relationship with God, that is why it has prospered over every nation in the world, and enabled free course of the Word over the world. That relationship is being threatened by the Devil working to destroy our country through ungodly mind-sets and actions that are increasing every day. The Devil wants to take us out so it can take out the only country that stands against tyranny and for the rights of man and freedom to worship God and Jesus. Americans want to help those in need but not those in GREED. About “the rich” – the rich give a LOT, both in charity and in taxes. Giving is always supposed to be about FREE WILL and not government mandate. Americans don’t have a problem supporting the poor but some of us do have a problem supporting freeloaders and those who are not willing to put forth the effort it takes to support themselves and their own families. “Big Business” is what supplies JOBS and therefore prosperity to the public. Stand against business and you stand for a marxist state- a small elite class ruling a huge lower class – rather than a huge MIDDLE CLASS which is an indicator of a nation’s prosperity. Jesus was never about taking from the rich and giving it to the poor, you are mixing him up with Robin Hood.

  14. It really is very easy to be a true follower of Christ. Speak, act, and think like Christ. When we would behave like this, we would know if something is right or wrong. I know nothing about the so-called “Tea Party”, but if they do not behave or act in a Biblical manner, one should ask questions.

    Before you sign-up for any party, one should compare that group’s actions or manifesto to the Bible. Fellow men and women of God, ask yourself this question before you make a statement, or act on something said or done; Is it in accordance to the Word of God? To deny the poor healthcare, food, housing etc is NOT Biblical. To go to war because of greed or oil interests is NOT Biblical. But to help care for and feed the poor, the widow and the orphan, to let greed take the backseat and deny selfinterest – that is Biblical.

  15. truthseeker2 Jul 10th 2012

    Andrew, this is absolutely spot on. I am behind you 100% in every word you wrote. Praise the Lord someone has had the guts to say it and lay it out. couldn’t of said it better. EVERYONE WHO AGREES TAKE ANDREWS SUGGESTION AND FORWARD IT TO ALL YOUR TEA PARTY CONSERVATIVE FRIENDS. I know I will be.The reasons you laid out are exactly why unbelievers are repulsed by so called professing christians, and these so called christians give real christians a bad name. Unbelievers have every right to be repulsed. I am a christian myself and people who hold these ideals and yet claim to be followers of Christ disgust me. For all the Americans who claim to be followers of Jesus and yet support every aim of the wealthy, the pious judgemental and the selfish, take a good examination of yourself and realise you worship your country and your mammon and your selves instead of God.

  16. Andrew, what you have written is so true – it amazes me the lack of love there seems to be for the poor, homeless, sick etc. when i have challenged others in the past they wont have it…i dont think they understand the words of God – To love just, have mercy and walk humbly with your God.
    it also amazes me the number of christian to believe in the gun as the line of defense – when God Himself is our, our Shield and our Defender.
    education is a wonderful thing but doesnt necessary bring with it the Wisdom of God and while i pray that nobody is hurt i believe we will see more and more natural disasters and people loosing all they have in the process – how long will it go on? as long as it takes for God to call the whole world/church to repentance. what will it take? whatever God decides is necessary.

  17. my last comment should have had the word “TO LOVE JUSTICE, HAVE MERCY AND WALK HUMBLY WITH YOUR GOD”.

  18. AMEN to this post! Was just having this discussion yesterday with the only Christian friend I have I can vent to about this situation. I live in the Bible Belt… Texas. We homeschool. I feel like I live on a completely different planet than they do. And I was sick to death of it even before my 18 yo son got cancer, without health insurance.

    Yesterday I watched the documentary Sicko. Here you cannot mention Michael War without venom spewing from people. But I found him soft-spoken, not hateful, just telling the truth. And the bottom line is most Americans have no compassion for the poor, esp not the church. We have been involved in homeless ministry for a few years and it’s like pulling teeth to get the church involved. They may throw money at it once or bring their youth group out for a photo session about all the good they are doing, but they don’t have a heart for those who are suffering. We became so grieved by it.

    And Christianity and patriotism are nearly synonymous. If you don’t support the wars, you don’t love Jesus. How in the world did we get here?? When I was very young and foolish, I marched lock step behind the conservative brainwashers. When I began to seek Jesus alone – I began to see a HUGE contrast between His Way, and nearly everything I see in America and the Church. It grieves me so deeply.

    And I don’t know how to speak out about this without being completely shut out and shut down by everyone we know. But thank you for saying what needed to be said Andrew!! It is hugely encouraging!!!!! GOD BLESS YOU!

  19. truthseeker2 Jul 10th 2012

    p.s If only the Tea partiers put as much passion into seeking and serving the Lord as they do into worldly politics, perhaps the American ‘christianity’ as a whole would not be such a disgrace.

  20. Also I don’t believe the Tea Party realizes their message is pro-rich, or that they are inadvertently supporting the powers that have corrupted and control this country. But their mindset that you must pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, even if you have no arms, is so far way from the GRACE of God. Our fierce American self-sufficiency is also not the Way of Christ. One good line from a song I know is.. “Hell is a place where you don’t need any help.”

  21. Andrew – I see what you’re saying, but it’s more a symptom of YOUR worldview rather than their message.

    If you understand the US political game, then you know that it’s all about creating polar extremes. One party is perceived as the ‘pro-poor’ party while the other is painted as the ‘pro-rich’ party.

    Just because a party opposes SOCIALISM doesn’t make them ‘anti-poor’.

    When you create false dichotomies such as this, you end up skewing the whole picture and missing the point.

    The Tea Party is against BIG GOVERNMENT. Right now, in the USA, big government is taking the role of ‘socialism’ which, though ’emotionally’ expedient, is irresponsible and destructive to society as a whole.

    You mentioned ‘learning from history’ in a comment above – and that’s exactly what needs to happen here. History has shown us that BIG GOVERNMENT SOCIALISM and massive intrusion and control in people’s lives eventually leads to a lower standard of living and WORSE conditions for the poor than in a free society.

    Tea Partiers understand this principle and refuse to be the victim of more “REPEAT HISTORY” without a fight.

    Talk to some Tea Partiers yourself – ask them if they are ‘anti-poor’ — ask them if they are ‘pro-war’ — ask them if they think the sick should suffer — ask them if they are ‘pro-rich’ (in the ‘anti-poor’ sense of the word). I GUARANTEE YOU they will so ‘NO!’

    (I’m not part of the Tea Party, but as an American Libertarian who understands the principles of America’s foundation and the central aspect of LIBERTY, I can tell you that I definitely answer ‘NO!’ to each of the above questions)

    Understand it before you criticize it. :)

  22. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    My friend, I understand it all too well.


    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  23. You’ve demonstrated very clearly that you DON’T, my Kiwi, soft-socialism friend. ;)

    Bless you!


  24. as I said all one has to do is research the history of Germany and the third Reich,, the sheep and goats are now being seperated, and there is not much time left to choose which side one will be on,, I pray that some will awaken out of thier delusions and quit running to man for the answers.. historyand the word of Yah, have a loud voice for those who want to pay attention,, It kind of reminds me of the rich man who wanted to come back and warn his brothers to not go to this place called hell,, Yeshua said they would not hear.. AND I FEAR THAT WHEN IT COMES TO THIS TOPIC OF THE UNITEDSTATES, MANY WILL ALSO NOT HEAR, WHY, BECAUSE THEY DONT WANT TO,, THERE GOSPEL IS FALSE, AND THEIR MESSIAH IS FALSE,, critical thinking in this nation has gone out of the window, and been replaced with a form of marxism ,, most of the last generation in america have been brain washed by the dialectic process, it is called the dumbing down of america.. it is the final culmination of the great falling away,, BEHOLD THE WHORE WHO RIDES THE POLITICAL BEAST..THE CHURCH OF AMERICA

  25. truthseeker2 Jul 10th 2012

    This is so not about ‘socialism’ versus ‘capitalism’ or ‘liberty’. Stop high jacking the plain truth set out in scripture and reducing it to unfounded taunts about some political agenda. Choose your side, do you belong to the world, or to CHRIST.

  26. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    The basic question I am asking is this-

    Would Jesus have taken months and years starting a loud, strident movement trying to promote “Libertarianism” in government? Would that be any kind of focus for Him? The ‘Libertarian’ revolution in Politics? Can you imagine Jesus focusing on that?

    I think not.

    Bless you all

    Andrew Strom.

  27. Yes Andrew I believe it is a very loud miscommunication…by the liberal left. They are sparring no expense or effort to paint the tea party as haters, extremists, racists etc. Many liberals now are even posing as tea party members and making wild statements as you quoted to further confuse the issue. AS I’m sure you know the major news networks (except for Fox) are almost all liberal and anti-conservative. They are doing what they can to paint these people as extremists. Tea party people are most definitely for the poor …and the rich, and everyone else. They want big government to downsize and let people take care of people, not big government taking care of (controlling) people. Also, most all the violence you hear about is directed AT tea party people not instigated by them.

    It is very important top get your facts from first hand sources not liberal news outlets. Every tea party member I know gives money, time and talent to help their communities.

  28. Deuteronomy 30:19

    I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

  29. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    I am glad you said that, Marty.

    But the Tea Party people themselves come across as LOUD, Strident, Angry and sometimes even Hateful.

    They don’t need the “Liberals” to paint them that way. I get Tea Party emails every day.

    Bless you!


  30. Nancy Fraley Jul 10th 2012

    I have to agree with Andrew in his article.I believe most wars after WW2 were not necessary, and I come from a military background.

  31. myrtletree Jul 10th 2012

    i find it apalling in this day and age that millions of americans can,t afford healthcare. the basic right of everyone is healthcare, a nationalised healthcare and it is not just the right of the rich. america is not the land of the free when you can,t afford to be ill.

  32. So what you’re saying, Andrew, is that ALL POLITICS ARE BAD? (ie. anarchy?)

  33. I didn’t realize you were not an American, that’s one reason why you don’t understand what is going on with this country. Sorry, we “Tea Partiers” are not going to go down with the ship if we can help it. If the ship goes down, freedom goes down. The devil gets to take over even sooner, I for one am going to stand against it. We are tired of atheists and pagans and misinformed Christians letting the Devil run over us. We are tired of a wasteful government taking the fruit of our own labors and wasting it down a rathole to the tune of nearly one billion dollars every day. We work to take care of ourselves and “to have to give”, not to have taken away from us. Christian Tea Partiers go to work, teach their children the Word of God, pray, speak the Word, help the poor, give to church and charities, get involved in community service. We are “harmless as doves and wise as a serpent”, we must be. We are wise to the wiles of the Devil. We stand for the defenseless and against the evil. We are for freedom in Christ. If that is not to your liking, maybe you are missing something yourself.

  34. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    And can anyone tell me the proper Christian attitude towards the President of the country? -Even if you disagree with him?

    Are Christians supposed to rant and rave hatefully about anyone – let alone the President? Can someone tell me?

    “Pray for those in authority” – that is what the Bible says. Not “Spew hate over those in authority”.

    Bless you!


  35. willem Jul 10th 2012

    Jesus is nothing like government, or flag..
    So true.

  36. Janice Jul 10th 2012

    Sorry, Andrew, but you are really off on this one! I am not a “Tea Partyer”, so I am not defending the movement. I think you are quite right when you speak of mixing kingdoms. But your comments also are very telling. They really reveal a socialist–and anti biblical– mindset that is commonplace in countries like UK, Aus, and NZ. My bible says, if you don’t work, you don’t eat. You want those of us who do work to have their paychecks taken by the gov’t to feed the poor–after all that’s only fair–and wouldn’t Jesus do it? No–He wouldn’t!! The poor ought to be taken care of–but by the church–not mandated by the gov’t programs that steal from hard working people. Jesus never forced people against their will as big gov’ts do. People need to give to the poor because they want to. And some are poor simply because they EXPECT TO BE GIVEN A HANDOUT and have no desire to work at all. So gov’t handouts don’t help the poor, they keep people in poverty. Even in the church in Paul’s day widows were not taken care of by the assembly unless they were of a certain age and met certain requirements. Your comments reveal the same socialist mindset when it comes to health care. You may have free health care in your country, but at what price? I lived in Britain, and I know what the health care is like there….people wait for months or even years to get the care they need—if they can even get it at all. Why do you think people come from Canada to US to have an operation?? They are unable to qualify for it on the socialized Canadian system. Again, we Americans want the right of self determination. I want the right to take the money I have earned and determine what I wish to spend it on–not have it stolen from me by an evil gov’t that wishes to redistribute the wealth. And redistributing the wealth is one of the defining traits the bible uses to describe the Antichrist and his evil system of repressive gov’t. Socialism teaches people to look to gov’t as having the solution for their problems….but we are to teach people to look to the Lord.

  37. I have seen some groups claiming to be tea party members coming across as haters but they turn out to be the rent – a -mob types paid to do this. Fox News has had several big exposes on this very issue. Some organizations also send out mass mailings with very hateful invective in order to paint tea party people as extremists. No tea party leader or member I have ever heard is anti poor, just anti big government.

  38. truthseeker2 Jul 10th 2012

    Very sad to see the usual ‘blame the poor’, ‘its all poor peoples fault if they are poor/struggling’, ‘poor people are lazy and dont work, expect handouts’ rubbish coming out. I dont recall Jesus ever judging the poor and condemning them. He only spoke of helping them.

  39. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    Fine, Janice.
    But that is not my point.

    My point is that Christians should not be raising up a MOVEMENT that angrily and loudly tries to “out-yell” the poor.

    The behaviour and antics and spirit of the Tea Party are totally unchristian. And what about their hateful words towards the President? I have not even heard a DOG spoken of that venomously. Can any of this be “Christian”?

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  40. zeal4thyhouse Jul 10th 2012

    Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

    Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

  41. I see there is a real problem wih the conflation of American Christianity with US nationalism, which is a form of idolatry that causes blindness, as all idolatry does. However, as it has come relatively late on the scene, I would say that the Tea Party – or, rather, many within it – may just reflect this. I would say that the purpose of the Tea Party, like the UK Independence Party, back home in the UK, is to resist the advance and onslaught of the New World Order. Whether this is right or wrong, may be the subject of a separate debate.

    While I believe that only the Lord can change hearts for good, I also see that no spheres of life, including the political, are off-limits for His working. I also think many, who now say that Christians should not get involved in politics, would have said that the British Parliament was no place for a godly man like William Wilberforce.

  42. Never show disrespect for God or curse a leader of your people. amen ANDREW, THAT IS INDEED THE WORD OF YAH..

    it is apparant and extremely grieveous by the responses of many

    that there is an anti-christ mindset among those who claim to be


  43. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    Yes, Mark. But what if the New World Order is right-wing?

    Like Hitler?

    Do you know who welcomed Hitler?

    The Conservatives and the Patriots.

    -It could happen.

    Bless you!


  44. Merrill Jul 10th 2012

    Amen. Amen. Amen.
    But, you are really going to “get it” from some quarters…
    So put on your helmet and duck!
    Patriotism, politics, & nationalism can very easily slip into idolatry.

  45. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    The best trick on the devil’s agenda would be-

    To make the Antichrist a “REPUBLICAN”.

    And thus suck in all the Christians.

    Could it happen? -Of course!

    Bless you all


  46. I thoroughly agree with the essence of this article.
    I have been waiting for 50 years to see the Federal Government cut off the IRS deduction to all “churches,” (the vast majority of which are man-made).
    That will be a glorious time indeed!
    Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s (but don’t ever mix the two).
    There has been so much mixture within the church for so long that most “Christian” folks actually think it is good and right.
    Lord, hasten Your persecution of the church which man has built!

  47. Bro. Strom, yes, there is a lot of anger against the President because of his actions – yet we do pray for him, mostly that he makes the right decisions for the country and that he and his family are protected from harm. BUT we do reserve the right to discuss the issues – of course we are not to badmouth him but we have a right of free speech. The Tea Party for the most part is about the ISSUES, not the man himself. P.S. Did you ever hear how Pres. Bush was, and still is, vilified by the left with every filthy name you can think of? A man who, though he may have made mistakes, is a born-again Christian who changed his life, and was called “Satan” by Hugo Chavez at the United Nations? And NO leftist in the country objected to that.

  48. Andrew

    You are entitled to your opinion but unfortunately you have been shaped more by socialist media than by truth on this one. I am not a tea party member. I am a citizen of the kingdom of heaven.

    For you to say that people in america are denied health care is aboslutely false. No one can ever be turned away from an emergency room. For years we had no health insurance and lived well below the povery level. We were never denied care because of our financial status. When we were honest with the doctors, they worked with us, frequently writing off a portion or all of the bill.

    I’m here, I live it, I work with the poor. I know of what I speak because of my experience.

  49. Yashua said, “…ye have the poor always with you.” Socialists wish to contradict our Lord concerning this statement in the name of fairness and equity. Factually, however, at any given time, someone is the poorest person on earth and someone is the richest. Human efforts to change that are deceptions to achieve other ends, as can be seen with the USSR. They may have believed the deception of Marxism, but an oligarchy was formed which fleeced and raped.
    If a government overtaxes people so as to give better health care to the poor, is that charity? Where is such charity shown to be so in the Bible? If I feed a hungry person or take a sick person to a physician, that is charity. The government like any earthly business ought to first concern itself with being in the black, not taxing so much that the great-grandchildren owe the debts generated by presently “helping” everyone. This is really seeking the downfall of the society which will necessarily occur even as a single home which overspends will eventually be ruined if outlay continues more than income.
    Secular government cannot perform true charity; churches, individual believers, and theocracies can only do true charity. For only the Holy Spirit can teach His own how to give without pridefully stealing the glory of God. Can a secular government learn to do this? Can a secular government live a godly life and go to heaven when it is overthrown?
    In a finite world, there are finite resources. Some people can afford elaborate health procedures, and some cannot. Some children have school lunches, while some will never attend school. Stealing wealth by overtaxing in the name of “helping the poor,” is a scheme to make government more powerful and to have more money moving through government for political types to pocket. The poor will still not have what this montrous rip off promises: They will be placed in long waiting lines for procedures needed immediately (Canada) or the aged will be warehoused as a torturous form of euthenasia (England). The old system of pay as you go is preferable to these modern pipe dreams created by demons and promoted by bleeding hearts who know not the word of God.

  50. Andrew – can you provide us with a link to this ‘venomous’ Tea Party propaganda that you’re talking about? So far your claims are based on “the emails” you get and you don’t seem to actually KNOW any Tea Party members personally.

    That’s a pretty weak foundation for the point you’re trying to make. Help us out here!

  51. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    Is the tax system a “Christian” issue?

    Would Jesus raise up a mass-movement to protest at the taxes of Caesar?

    No – he would not.

    That is the point.

    Bless you!


  52. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    Noah – if you have not seen the anti-Obama rants of the US Conservative Christians, I am sorry, my friend, but I do not know where you have been.

    I get streams of them virtually every day. Don’t you?



  53. AMEN brother Bob padgett,, I agree with your prayer, and the prayers of our chinese brothers and sisters,, LET PERSECUTION ARISE AGAINST THE CHURCH IN AMERICA, THAT SOME MAY BE PURIFIED..

  54. Jesus knew the kind of society he was living in – yes, he paid taxes, but that society was different – and his ministry was to Israel and he had a mission to accomplish. God told him what HE had to do and he did it. What WE have to do and what God tells us to do may be slightly different. Not every one is called to do the same thing. I don’t think you are really listening and trying to understand, you are trying to defend your viewpoint.

  55. Hi Andrew:

    I have followed the tea party since it’s inception and have been a supporter of the basic tenants.
    Yet In America, the issue is “It’s how you live stupid” not “it’s the economy stupid” The Founders said the Republic would not survive if we did not get that concept. I blog on a couple of tea party sites and our virtue is not talked about as “The Major problem” it’s always the economy. As you know, because we have not addressed our relationship with God in this county as a result we have holes in our pockets, (and our leaders actions over the years that we didn’t pay attention too) have been ordained to lead us down a rosy garden path to destruction. We were too busy chasing money and things to care.
    Now, government by the people, for the people and of the people has perished from the earth. As of right now that is the case. I believe God does want to revive our Republic that we could be that light shining on the Hill but not till God’s requirements are fulfilled which is utter repentance!

    As for healthcare, It has never been the job of a government to provide healthcare for it’s citizens. It was the job of the private community. In America for the most part on helping the poor is “that’s the governments job” losing all the opportunities to become more Christlike by releasing the burden of taking care of our brothers and sisters to the new God of Centralized, do all, be all to the people. “Get your Christian God outta here, we are all you need now!” During the revival of the 1800s, we took care of the poor not government! This new vision of America is what the Founders of America fought against, but now we got it because we forgot our God!
    See Scrooges comment to those who were collecting for the poor from the commonality.

    At this festive time of year, Mr. Scrooge, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute.
    Ebenezer: Are there no prisons?
    First Collector: Plenty of prisons.
    Ebenezer: And the union workhouses – are they still in operation?
    First Collector: They are. I wish I could say they were not.
    Ebenezer: Oh, from what you said at first I was afraid that something had happened to stop them in their useful course. I’m very glad to hear it.
    First Collector: I don’t think you quite understand us, sir. A few of us are endeavoring to buy the poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth.
    Ebenezer: Why?
    First Collector: Because it is at Christmastime that want is most keenly felt, and abundance rejoices. Now what can I put you down for?
    Ebenezer: Huh! Nothing!
    Second Collector: You wish to be anonymous?
    Ebenezer: [firmly, but calmly] I wish to be left alone. Since you ask me what I wish sir, that is my answer. I help to support the establishments I have named; those who are badly off must go there.
    First Collector: Many can’t go there.
    Second Collector: And some would rather die.

    ‘If they would rather die,’ said Scrooge, ‘they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

    Founder John Weatherspoon: Nothing is more certain that that widespread immorality and corruption of manners make a people ripe for destruction. Beyond a certain point even the best constitution will be ineffectual and slavery must ensue.”

    George Duffield pastor of Pine Street Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia from 1772-1790 prophetically stated this in a sermon:

    “Whilst sun and moon endure, America shall a remain a city of refuge for the whole earth, until she herself shall play the tyrant, forget her destiny, disgrace her freedom and provoke her God.”

    If we would of remembered this prayer we would of survived! This is what we as a people in America should of done for the past 200+ years


    Delivered by
    Reverend Samuel Langdon, 1787

    “Preserve your government with the utmost attention and solicitude, for it is the remarkable gift of heaven. From year to year be careful in the choice of your representatives and all the higher powers of government.

    “Fix your eyes upon men of good understanding and known honesty; men of knowledge, improved by experience; men who fear God and hate covetousness; who love truth and righteousness, and sincerely wish the public welfare.

    “Beware of such as are cunning rather than wise; who prefer their own interest to everything; whose judgment is partial or fickle, and whom you would not willingly trust with your own private interests.

    “When meetings are called for the choice of your rulers, do not carelessly neglect them or give your votes with indifference … but act with serious deliberation and judgment, as in a most important matter, and let the faithful of the land serve you.

    “Let not men openly irreligious and immoral become your legislators; for how can you expect good laws to be made by men who have no fear of God … and who boldly trample on the authority of his commands?… If the legislative body is corrupt, you will soon have bad men for counselors, corrupt judges, unqualified justices, and officers in every department who will dishonor their stations….”

    “Therefore be always on your guard against parties and the methods [of] unworthy men, and let distinguished merit always determine your vote. And when all places in government are filled with the best men you can find, behave yourselves as good subjects; obey the laws, [be] cheerfully subject to such taxation as the necessities of the public call for. Give tribute to whom tribute is due, custom to whom custom, fear to whom fear, and honor to whom honor [is due] as the gospel commands you.

    “Never give countenance to turbulent men, who wish to distinguish themselves and rise to power by forming combinations and exciting insurrections against government. For this can never be the right way to redress real grievances….”

    “I call upon you also to support schools in all your towns, that the rising generation may not grow up in ignorance…. It is a debt you owe to your children and that God to whom they belong….”

    “I call upon you to preserve the knowledge of God in the land and attend to the revelation written to us from heaven.

    “If you neglect or renounce that religion taught and commanded in holy scriptures, think no more of freedom, peace, and happiness….”

    “May the general government of these United States , when established appear to be the best which the nations have yet known, and be exalted by uncorrupted religion and morals! And may the everlasting gospel diffuse its Heavenly light and spread Righteousness, Liberty , and Peace through the whole world.”

  56. Matt W Jul 10th 2012

    Politics are a big problem in this world. I am a independent who is so simply because i am not for a party because im in the kingdom of God. I simply vote for who has the best to offer for our country. The modern political system has spoiled the church making it a laughing stock amongst non believers because all we do is fight and if you don’t think so there are 22000 denominations to prove it. My father is a tent-maker pastor who has sacrificed greatly for the kingdoms sake, God has also blessed in return with wealth and there are a few things many people who have less tend to forget. The Top 2 percent pay 90% of the taxes in the US. I look at our company revenue and think how much more good we could do if we didn’t have to pay our government 42% of our profit. While me personally only has to pay 13%. This is why there is a tea party…It’s just not fair. As far as healthcare, i agree something should be done but not the largest tax increase in world history. Andrew the bible teaches us to be salt and light. Look at Daniel, he served under 4 administrations yes in political office giving salt to world. I think God has men in every area of life, i recently heard of a man who in ww2 felt the need to pray for a great victory and God intervened on the allies behalf and that man was Derek Prince. God does require government and he also requires men of God, in the bible every king had a prophet.

    God Bless Andrew
    I am always blessed by your insights.

  57. Brother Bob Jul 10th 2012

    Dear Andrew,

    Wow. Where do I start?

    I can see you’re definitely more socialist than Christian in this article with all the contempt you have for God fearing people working hard to be salt and light.

    Don’t have an opinion one way or another on ObamaDeathCare?
    So you’re ok with all insurance carriers being FORCED to provide abortions and sex change operations?
    So you’re ok with me having to pay at TAX/FINE for choosing to trust Jesus for my health instead of buying an insurance plan?
    You ok with everyone being FORCED to have an chip implanted in their hand or forehead per Obama666Care? Duh!!!!???

    I’ve seen you occasionally put forth some extreme unBibilical ideas but this one is beyond the pale.

    Please keep your anti-Christian socialism/communism propaganda in New Zealand. We have more than enough of it here to deal with here without you piling it on too.

    You have my permission to remove me from your email list.

  58. Andrew Jul 10th 2012

    Thankyou Brother Bob
    for letting it all hang out.


  59. Andrew would you please document at least a couple of the many anti-Obama rants that you get every day.
    What are your sources that caused you to come your conclusions?
    The rich are not taking from the poor.
    People are not denied health care in America.
    Most want an end to the war.
    Where is the compassion on the people who are being marginalized every day by this administration who are paying their taxes and now asking for more.
    “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money. ”…Margret Thatcher

  60. http://www.antipasministries.com/html/file0000386.htm


  61. zeal4thyhouse Jul 10th 2012

    True colours of many “”christians”” show clearly!

    The amazing thing is that some of these “””christians”” also “”share”” in the deep things of ALMIGHTY GOD.

  62. Brother Bob Jul 10th 2012

    Dear Andrew,

    Instead of your sarcasm, can you explain why you’re OK with Obama Death Care?

  63. Jesus commended the woman who, of her own free will, put her 2 mites into the temple treasury. He did not commend the Roman overlords who exacted the taxes. He merely said to pay them, because if you don’t you will be thrown in jail. We don’t live in a slave society – the people ARE the government. WE get to decide what happens, not overlords, and we get to express our opinions occasionally, that is the difference. I have gone to Tea Party meetings and they consist of a bunch of retired grandmas and grandpas, a few middle aged working people, and a couple of younger ones, who have worked hard all their lives and are appalled at what is going on. That is why I say you do not understand what is going on, in this category anyway.

  64. Jean Clink Jul 10th 2012

    I have been following your emails for some years, and I am an American.

    We have a responsibility to pray, yes, of course, but also to become informed and vote intelligently. I agree that we are not to “wrap the cross in the flag”, but I see we now have a president who is running the country into ruin on many fronts, and has even bigger plans for ‘after the election’ as he told the leader of Russia.

    I studied the many reasons for going into Iraq, and find it false to paint it as merely, “Invade and kill”. Acknowledging the reasoning behind President Bush’s policy in Iraq does not make me a “staunch supporter of WAR”.

    I hear MANY Tea Party-ers on the radio, never speaking “ugly and hate-filled”. The Liberal accusations that the Tea Party is racist, are unfounded.

    “Siding with the Rich and Against the Poor”, and wanting to deny health care to the poor are ugly accusations in light of the fact that very few liberals give to the poor where the opposite is true of conservative Christians. On the other hand, the Church has been given a mandate by our Lord to help the poor and it has failed, calling those who do purveyors of a ‘social Gospel’, which is why we have billions of tax dollars wasted on bureaucracies in the name of charity. That needs to change.

    I wonder if there is a study of what percentage of our tax dollars slated for ‘the poor’ actually find their way into the mouths of the truly poor, and how much goes to government employees and their retirement funds. We know that the Mennonite Central Committee and World Vision have very small administrative costs.

    In my youth, I knew many many people who were ‘on the dole’ while making thousands in cash. In Ontario, where I live now, welfare used to be distributed locally which would work a lot better. Now, we don’t have any poor and I am amazed at how many able-bodied people are on the dole here (while making money ‘under the table’), and how many alcoholics and people who refuse to take care of their bodies are causing great expense to an over-burdened health care system – we have heard of a two-month wait time for biopsy of a fast-growing tumor – that is not health care.

    I find it hard to describe why, but I see that Canadian and American ways of thinking are very different. I do hope that you will carefully consider what some of the folks who disagree with you are saying.

    Blessings to you – Jean

  65. Jarrod Jul 10th 2012

    I’m not sure where you got your information about the Tea Party, I think you have some valid points, but of them, only #5 is related to the Tea Party’s message of “smaller, more accountable government”.
    That is the overriding message they are trying to convey, nothing more. So even though you did read an opinion piece where one person tried to equate the Tea Party with Evangelical Christianity, that’s not the message of the Tea Party. The Tea Party has no requirements that anyone has any sort of a Christian or anti-Christian message. It’s just smaller government.
    Likewise, War. War breeds massive government. The Tea Party is actually very much against undeclared and unconstitutional wars.
    Your assertion that they “Side with the rich against the poor” is way out of left field, there’s no evidence of this whatsoever. Politicians do this all the time, but the Tea Party? How does smaller government equate to siding against the poor? If anything, it’s the opposite: they are siding against the rich, on the side of the poor, because they are standing against career politicians making their cronies get richer!
    And health care. If you aren’t talking about Obamacare, what ARE you talking about? Insurance companies? That has nothing to do with the Tea Party whatsoever.
    #5 is completely valid. Thinking that the problems of this world will be changed by politics is missing the root of the problem.
    Lastly: Who on earth are you getting your information from? Obviously some fringe people that are trying to demonize the Tea Party movement. I don’t know of anyone in the movement that was angry, hate filled, or particularly un-Christlike in any way apart from just being normal people.
    I normally like the posts that you bring, but this is a bit too political, especially when you haven’t examined anything whatsoever and are judging a movement based on pure heresay.

  66. sharon Jul 10th 2012

    Thanks to all the brave souls who had the courage to post their thoughts on this subject.
    Andrew, if you receive e-mails that are not nice, simply delete them.
    That’s what I do. Then I take that moment to pray for the situation.
    And as for the government here, it is too big and controlling. As long as people have the right to vote, they will have a say about that.
    We serve our Heavenly Father when we are in the service of our fellow man. Willing service, not by a law.
    Come quickly Lord Jesus.
    Blessings to all

  67. Noah, you wrote “If you understood the original Tea Party effort in 1773.” Well, I’m a researcher and teacher of American history and I can say with confidence that after having read the most popular Tea Party publications, having watched numerous rallies and interviews with Tea Party representatives, having attended two Tea Party rallies, and having had long discussions with friends of mine that support that movement…that the Tea Party maintains one of the most distorted views of the actual “dumping of the tea” that I’ve ever seen. It’s as if everyone in the Tea Party read part of a Wikipedia entry, then read some libertarian / right-wing propaganda on the Tea Party, then bought a tri-cornered hat and went protesting.

    The relationship between the British Empire and the British East India Company was a cozy alignment of monarchy and corporation. Tax laws, designed to favor the BEIC in the Colonies is what inspired the Tea Party. In essence, the Tea Party was a giant act of industrial sabotage; it was an attack by colonial-based smugglers on a corrupt political-corporate juggernaut. Britain was giving away special favors to the most significant corporation of the day.

    The modern Tea Party (in both its overt doctrines and its implied doctrines) argues that it is pro-business and, like the other commenter above, “LC”, defends “Big Business” as the source of jobs. It sees government interaction in the economy as inherently bad (something Tea Partiers have imbibed from Friedman economics and the freakish self-centered philosophy of Ayn Rand — neither of which can emerge from the life of Christ). But that’s just ONE way in which Tea Partiers distort this history. There are legion more. Legion.

    Their mutation of our history to justify their views on taxes is absurd. Our nation grew faster in the thirty years after WWII than it has since then and yet our tax rates for the wealthiest Americans was never below 70% during that time. However, after going on tax lowering frenzy in the following thirty years, we’ve seen wages go down and the economy slow down. In fact, we were promised that the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy would INEVITABLY stimulate the economy because, as the doctrine goes, what you give to the rich makes its way down. But it did not. At all. Yet, “lower taxes” is one of the pillars of the Tea Party (it still makes me ill that they use the term “Tea Party” for themselves at all). Taxes are a tool. They are only a curse or blessing based on how intelligently they are implemented. The Tea Party shows its narrow vision by assuming that lowering taxes is always the answer. It clearly is not.

    Noah, you also claim that “The Tea Party is against BIG GOVERNMENT.” Yes, that’s one of the other pillars of the T.P. Typically, this means both size (in terms of how many people are in the government and money spent) as well as in terms of scope (how far its reach is). This doctrine seems to argue that government is ALWAYS better if it is made smaller and ALWAYS worse if it is made bigger. But again I make an argument against this oversimplification. I have countless examples (with primary sources to prove it) that the size of the government is arbitrary and unimportant in terms of whether it is a just and effective government. Yes, it is always possible for bloat to occur. But it is equally possible for government to become too “small” in certain areas (say, for instance, the removal or non-enforcement of certain banking regulations over the last 30 years, which – if you’ve been watching the news in the last six years, has caused a few problems). A smaller government can be JUST as tyrannical as a big one. And most of the time, tyrannies ARE small.

    The last pillar of the Tea Party is “personal responsibility.” Which is a euphemism. It’s not that all of us don’t value people being responsible. That’s boringly obvious. It’s that this is a code word for “I am not my brother’s keeper.” It is also code for “If you are poor, you must have made bad decisions – but if not – no matter, pull yourself up by your bootstraps.” This last not-so-hidden meaning assumes a couple big things. It assumes anyone who wants to improve their lives can do so and that the only thing standing in their way is themselves. Often, people will toss out vague anecdotes about some famous person who went from rags to riches as proof that anyone can do it (of course, this logically fails a logic test – after all, just because someone out there did “X” does not prove that everyone out there can do “X” – this is a typical error of logic used to avoid weaknesses in an argument). There are MOUNDS of social data showing how incredibly difficult and, yes, sometimes impossible it is for poor Americas to get out of poverty (with or without government help). In fact, this is a fact so well known in social work research that it’s not even alarming any more. It’s as accepted as gravity. But the Tea Party rejects reality on a regular basis in favor of its oversimplified worldview. The world is easier and less gray if we can make hyper-simple evaluations of things that are actually quite messy and complex.

    Andrew, I like what you wrote. I think the only addition/amendment I would make is to the part about political activism and spiritual activism. My feeling on this is that Christians use political activism (which is usually just some lame combo of voting and having opinions) as a crutch to avoid the seriously demanding commands of Jesus. It’s easier for me to vote and feel I’ve done God’s work than it is for me to do something so unthinkable as to show preference for someone who is my sworn enemy. I do believe that Christians should promote justice for the weakest members of society as much as possible.

    I believe that ALL FALLEN HUMAN EMPIRES (including America) will ALWAYS create human casualties. Our fallen imaginations cannot avoid this outcome no matter how original our political and social ideas are. Jesus ministered directly to the casualties of the Roman/Judaic political/social/cultural systems. These were people who lacked one of the several basic human needs (food, water, shelter, clothing, health, community/acceptance, love, etc). The handful of encounters we see with him and the political, economic, or social elite are dominated by tension and warnings. And on the rare occasion when a wealthy man allowed Jesus to be his lord, he was motivated to sell half of his belongings and give back to all of those he had exploited.

    I DO think we should be politically active – but not according to the terms set down by our surrounding culture. What Jesus did was take action and it had real political significance. But he didn’t appear to put ANY hope in the idea that the political or economic systems of the Romans or the Judeans would do the trick. His actions WERE spiritual AND they had political messages naturally embedded in them. Just one example – by helping the poor directly and without expecting any of them to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” before he helped them, Jesus was openly rejecting the moral calculations done by the religious elite of his time. Writings from that period show that the dominant view of the day was that if you were poor it was your own fault or your parents fault (morally and practically). Similarly, by helping the poor (especially with feeding thousands) he was taking actions common to insurrectionists – gathering a big following by giving stuff away. This put him on the Roman radar. Not to mention that his multiple disruptions of the temple caused economic turmoil for the priests who were benefitting from the for-profit exploitation game going on in there.

    I think that if we follow Jesus…if we see ourselves as His hands and feet in this world and do the KINDS of things he did (but within our own contexts), then it is INEVITABLE that surrounding fallen cultures will take issue with it because the Kingdom INTERRUPTS the fallen nations of the world and challenges its patterns merely by embodying His Spirit. We do not take the world by sword (though we’ve tried that in the past and destroyed many humans in the process). But we also should not dream of MORPHING a fallen world empire into the Kingdom of God. America is not the Kingdom of God and never will be. Contrary to what the commenter, “LC”, said above, this country did NOT strike a covenant with God. And it does NOT have a special status among the nations of the world before God. That is a bizarre and cartoonish thought. There is one Kingdom. And those of us who have made Christ Lord over us (and daily have to do that) ARE the Kingdom of God (all over the world, across all cultures, across time even).

    Serving Christ is both spiritual and, simultaneously, a form of political and economic resistance to the fallen systems of this world. Anyone who does this will eventually be hated by those who benefit most from the fallen world’s systems.

  68. Jarrod Jul 10th 2012

    I did see that you mentioned emails from various conservatives that disliked Obama and his policies, but it might be helpful to realize that the Tea Party is against George W Bush every bit as much as they were against Barack Obama. And being Conservative isn’t the same as being Tea Party. Once again, the ONLY platform that the Tea Party stands upon is “Smaller, more accountable government”. Nothing racial, nothing hateful, no warmongering.

  69. I believe the root of these errors that Andrew is addressing is a disconnect in our understanding of the gospel in regard to justification.

    The obvious distinction between being “justified by faith without works” and being “justified by works” is where the issue lies. Both of these statements are true according to scripture and therefore MUST be reconciled with one another and yet for most believers these seemingly contradictory claims are not understood as a progression from the starting point for a christian and the finish line. The beginning and the end.

    The monopoly that “justification by faith without works” has had on the understanding of the christian gospel by most believers is staggering. My somewhat general claim and concern is that “evangelicalism” represents this doctrine as the “whole gospel” and not just a constituent part of the whole gospel.

    According to Jesus Christ, faith in Him is to culminate in a believers active and willing obedience to Christ’s words. Justification by faith without works is not the whole message. Justification by faith without works could never qualify as a complete representation of the gospel if Christ is to be believed. Justification by faith without works is how we begin the christian life, it is not how we live the christian life.

    The template for understanding justification is Law and Grace. This allows for an initial explanation of the two contradictory claims – “justification by faith without works” and “justification by works”

    Justification by “faith without works” applies to the sinner who is condemned under law with no way of being justified under law. He can’t do the work. The sinner must put his faith in Jesus who came to fulfill the law and redeem him from the curse of the law. Once a sinner has been justified under law and has received the gift of eternal life then he comes into a new economy of grace where he will then be justified by works and not by faith alone.

    This is consistent with what Jesus is continually telling His followers, “Do what I say” “Why do you call Me Lord, you don’t do what I say?” “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but He who does the will of My Father” “If you love Me you will obey Me” The great commission is go make disciples by teaching them to do what I say. Matt 28:20.

    If christians are taught that “faith alone” or “faith without works” is adequate to being a christian and that the necessity of repentance from sin(stop sinning) and obedience(works) to Christ is not truly vital to their eternal destiny, we then find an explanation to this strange condition that is so prevalent in christendom today- That Christians Don’t Follow Their Leader! They are taught that simply professing faith in Him is sufficient. In spite of the fact that Jesus is almost fanatical in His demands of obedience to His words by His followers.

    This is where, I believe, we find an explanation of why so few have come to discover the true path for christian conduct and witness in this world as revealed to us in the words of Jesus Christ. They are ignoring and dismissing what Christ has taught us on the basis of a misapplied doctrine that has deceived them into being hearers only and not doers also.

    Most of christendom has rejected, either actively or passively, the central premise of the great commission to become and make disciples because of an almost universally misapplied theology that opposes that very purpose.

    This is my plea to anyone who will listen…Become a disciple of Jesus Christ. Continue in His words, learn His ways, seek to grasp His doctrine. Take him as your example and hope. Live to fulfill His words and make that the singular goal of your life as He has taught us, no matter what your station in life may be. Anticipate that glorious day that is not too far off, when the Lord God of the universe, your Author and Creator will look you square in the eye and say ‘Well done”. That’s what I want to hear… davo, you did good!!

  70. Doug P. Jul 10th 2012

    Yer right on Andrew! By the way…wots yer fave flavor of ice cream?

  71. Jarrod Jul 10th 2012

    Cody: your viewpoint of Christianity is distorted. What is wrong with personal responsibility? When the Apostle Paul wrote, “He who does not work, will not eat” in 2 Thessalonians 3:10, doesn’t this imply that there is personal responsibility in the Church? That’s not to say that we don’t donate to charitable organizations, but historically, it was the job of the CHURCH, NOT THE GOVERNMENT, to take care of the poor. When the Government took over the responsibilities of the Church, then guess who people turn to when times are tough? Not to Jesus.

  72. Cody, among other things you wrote: “Our fallen imaginations cannot avoid this outcome no matter how original our political and social ideas are. Jesus ministered directly to the casualties of the Roman/Judaic political/social/cultural systems. These were people who lacked one of the several basic human needs (food, water, shelter, clothing, health, community/acceptance, love, etc).”

    What the people LACKED was GOD – the Word of God, the knowledge of God, the love of God, the faith in God to provide. He wanted people to learn how to believe GOD to meet their needs – not people and not the government! That’s what’s really lacking in all these discussions, and in your dissertation. All this reliance on government and taxes and health insurance puts the emphasis OFF believing God for deliverance, and looking to the world for deliverance.

  73. Kenny Atnip Jul 10th 2012

    Thank you Andrew for having the courage to speak the truth.

    Yes you are right in your assessment of Christians in America. American Christians for the most part are not denying their flesh, some have even convinced themselves that America is the Kingdom of God on Earth.

    Carnal Christians at best but I fear most simply do not know Christ.
    Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

    Yes there needs to be a revival in America and all revivals begin at the cross of Christ. If a person does not go to the cross of Christ there is not death of the old man. If the old man is not dead then there is no new man.

    We have too many Christian “leaders” today who have never been to the cross and it seems it is much loved by most Christians in America today.

  74. Noah the founding father’s who you call Christian were Luciferian worshiping Freemasons, any party that is trying to operate a theocratic system are corrupted.

  75. DPHeimbold Jul 10th 2012

    Andrew is an iconoclast. An idol smasher. A self promoter. After all the
    so called ‘idols’ are smashed, Andrew stands in the sanctuary as the oracle, the one with the ‘truth’…a perfect Cult leader.

    I agree with Noah and Susan. Andrew is misinformed, totally.

    Andrews rants could be written by any globalist who wants to discredit
    the United States. We have no ‘poor’ people in the United States. There are more people on ‘food stamps’ than in his entire country. Our problem is not hunger, but obesity!

    I was so pleased that Andrew was refused entry into the United States from Canada before the last election. He and his family didn’t have the proper papers.

    Now, as the election campaign is warming up, here comes the Iconoclast, again!

    What side are you on, Andrew?

    The Tea Party Movement is a marvel to behold. It is the ‘high ways and byways’ crowd coming to the wedding feast of Righteousness, while the self proclaimed religious crowd is not allowed in!

    The so called ‘church’ that Andrew promotes is a Cult.

    PS Jesus, being God, is totally involved in the political sphere. So were all the prophets of old. Jesus and the prophets spoke Truth to power. Every good citizen must do the same. The Tea Party, in this generation, is the mouth of the people, speaking to corrupt power…Obama and his crew of Chicago gangsters, etc.

  76. I feel that there is some confusion in your mind Andrew about the place of the state in a Christian’s life. We do not belong to the state or government. We belong to Christ. The government has no right to dictate to a Christian how he will live his life for Christ. We live by the tenants of the teaching of Christ…not the tenants or demands of the state. When the state dictates something that is wrong, we are obligated to disobey. When the state demanded that the apostles not speak in the name of the Lord, the apostles replied that God must be obeyed rather than men. When Pilate said he had power over Christ, the Lord told him that he had no power unless it was given to him by his Father.

    Now, I see that some have mentioned the New World Order. That order is the attempt of Satan to set up a counterfeit one-world government. It dates back to Babylon! Any attempt to set up a world government without Christ MUST be resisted by believers. It is the system of the beast..plain and simple. We cannot and must not have any part in this.

    The concept of this New World Order has been promoted by both the Republicans and the Democrats….it makes no difference. The agenda moves on whether Obama or Romney is in office.

    The real purpose for all forms of national health care is government ownership of our bodies. But we belong to Christ and not to the government.

    The Lord paid taxes. That is clear! But His comment was that what belonged to Caesar should be given to Caesar and what BELONGED TO GOD SHOULD BE GIVEN TO GOD! We obey stop signs, speed limits, etc. but when the government begins to dictate moral issues, we do what is right!

    Socialism, communism and fascism are all forms of collectivism….with an all-powerful state. There are no right and left wings. It is all an illusion…..two wings on the same bird of prey! There is only one party….the Republicrats.

    On a practical note……..the government spending must stop or there will be a terrible crash of the whole system. The system is almost in free-fall now. Most of the social programs are bankrupt and if the government were to take every bit of our money, it would still not be enough to cover all the programs. The programs cannot and will not continue. Their demise is close. And when the system crashes, what will be the condition of all the people who have lived in dependence on the government?

    The system wants us to be in dependence on them! That way, when they finally pull the plug on this rotten house of cards, they will have absolute control of the population. People will BEG the government to run their lives. Are believers supposed to be dependent on government?

  77. Chris M Jul 10th 2012

    Brother Andrew,

    You are partly right and partly wrong. You are right on much of the mixing of nationalism with the cause of Christ but this is neither new nor unique to the Tea Party. As a 36 year old I have seen and been concerned about this for most of my life. My pastor has been in meetings with James Dobson and like, only to be disgusted with their disrespect of the President and focus on political power, before the Tea Party was even thought of. This is simply a malady (sin) that infects the entire width of our society. So, in that regard is somewhat unfair to single out the Tea Party. The Tea Party is not as monolithic as you seem to believe or even this one commentator you mention in your article believes.

    I don’t know what the one commentator means that the war would have been over sooner if not for the Christians. It is a gross mischaracterization to imply that Christians in America are simply over here blindly rooting for more war just for the sake of having more war. Are you saying pacifism is the only “Christian” attitude? If we must be limited to the New Testament, is Christ a pacifist when he descends on a white horse?

    The 3rd item for your article is most perplexing to me. One of the MAJOR drivers led to the creation of the Tea Party was this disdain for the bailouts that were given to the Big Companies. Generally the Tea Party is against the collusion of big business with government. “Shouting down the poor”? My goodness where in world has this happened? Was there some group of poor people run off by Tea Party people?

    To some degree we could find more than one example of the problems you address in your article in the Tea Party but so we could in all of society.

  78. ChildofGod Jul 10th 2012

    I agree that the cross wrapped in the flag is so wrong. Look at what happened when the Roman Empire did this – and it endures even today!

    I am Canadian. We are not a socialist country, however, we do have universal health care. It is not a hand out, it is a right for every citizen in this country. We are democratic and free. We still have the freedom to buy health insurance that covers things that the Health Care does not. Universal health care does not have a cap, so if someone has a terminal illness they get equal care and treatment across the country and do not have to worry about losing their home. If specific, specialized treatment is not available in our country, our health care will pay to send one wherever that treatment is available. We do not feel victimized by the government for universal health care and I don’t believe Canadian’s pay a higher tax rate than say, Americans.

    Things need to be put into perspective and understand how the system really works. Everyone is treated equal in the eyes of medicine in Canada.

    Equality…Kingdom of God is where our citizenship should lie and yes, we are to pray for our leaders here on earth. Hmmm…I thought just crossed my mind, I believe I am hearing some “its all about me,” syndrome in a few comments. Is that Christ-like…are we not supposed to shedding “self”…just a thought.


  79. Andrew, although I agree with just about everything you wrote about in your article, I do question your motive for writing it. It seems you are more and more intent on “stirring things up” than ever. In one of your last posts you threatened to shut down the website because people always disagree with you, and yet you choose to publish something like this right afterwards. There is a huge difference between just speaking the truth and speaking the truth IN LOVE. I think your last statement in the article speaks volumes about your combative spirit. To challenge people to defy you is nothing more than pride, which is the underlying problem in the US. But to fight evil with evil is not Christlike either. I would challenge you to be careful the road you are heading down. Don’t let people’s opposition to you turn into bitterness. “…for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.” I Peter 5:5

  80. for all of you out there who boldy declare if one does not work they should not eat,, I suppose all of those who do not have a education above the gradeschool level, for what ever reason,, perhaps the screwed up foster care system that gives a large majority of the children to molesters and when they turn 18, after being institutionalized by this public school system and government who teaches all children in america, a form of education based on marxist theology,, YES IT IS TRUE, IMAGINE THAT, SHOULD PERHAPS MOVE TO MEXICO OR CHINA OR SOME OTHER THIRD WORLD COUNTRY WHERE ALL THE JOBS FOR THE UNEDUCATED POOR, HAVE BEEN SENT TO,, SO THAT THE CORPORTATE BEAST CAN MAKE MORE MONEY BY WORKING PEOPLE,(MANY OF THEM CHILDREN FOR PENNIES A DAY IN THERE SWEAT SHOPS.. WAKE UP AMERICA AND SMELL THE COFFEE,,many would work, if they could in fact find a job.. as I said before american christianity is considered the white rich mans religion,, and if you have never experienced being poor other than what you read about, and unable to feed your children, or take them to the doctor you are talking out of your neck.. it used to be that many of the homless where all drug addicts, parolees and mentally ill, however today many who work the jobs that the rich dont want,, can no longer find work,, and the tent cities that are springing up all over america testify to that truth.. instead of debating about whether or not america will be won back to God,, you should be obeying the first two commadments…pure and undefiled religion is to take care of the orphans and widows,, of which there are many in this nation,, many say it is not the governments job to take care of the poor,, THEY ARE RIGHT, THE EARLY CHRISTIANS TOOK CARE OF THIER POOR, THEY DID NOT SIT AROUND AND DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THEYSHOULD YOKE THEM SELVES WITH THE ROMAN GOVERNMENT AND THE PHARISSES, SO THERE LIVES COULD BE COMFORTABLE IN THIS PRISON PLANET…

  81. In response to the health care issue and how it is not the governments responsibility and people need to work hard for it…well many work hard and still not afford the outrageous hospital fees. What about them? Regarding the government not responsible for our health care…yet the government is responsible to rage war? All that money?! More than any country! That money alone can provide health care. But why are we at war at the first place? There are more and more pictures of American soldiers holding a poster board explaining the big lie. How they leave the military because they are killing innocent people for a unjust, manipulative cause. I have seen dozens and more and more of these pictures are going viral. Many dont see these pics because their political views differ so they go to other news sources that confirm their beliefs.

    To go tangential…how many people criticize the Occupy movement? Many think Occupiers are hyper liberals like Tea partyers are hyper conservative, but that is not completely factual. Many were libs, like me, but after Obama and the continued bombing and war and this messed up health care. It’s atrocious! Politics is a lie right now and not the solution. Do you know this all started with 911? Think Bin Laden did it? Oh, now we are going into conspiracy theories, yet many conspiracy theories have stood the test of time, many exposed as truth and many more that didnt give it a second thought are coming around. Took a decade. There are hundreds of engineers who have formed groups analyzing the evidence and know for a fact by how the steel beams melted on the edges that it had theramite, a explosion used in controlled demolitions. The way it fell. What about Trade Center 7? No plane hit that building and the explanation was from the heat of the other two towers. Wow! People believe that?! Then there should have been some heat damage in the other surrounding buildings! That was the beginning of the nightmare and should have started everyones critical thinking. The short simplified reason? To start a war based on energy dependency to keep the money with the big rollers. If there was a new source of energy was found, all these old corporations that have been in big business would lose out. And we know politicians are easily bought.

    Americas problem, as Mr. Strom succinctly put, is a spiritual problem. Amen, brother Strom. There is so much anti-christian sentiment by people now, and growing, because many conservatives and tea party-ers are the biggest hypocrites. The anti-chirstians say the same things which Mr. Strom outlined.

    Last night I have been thinking deeply about this country and the soldiers pictures that have been gong viral. Thinking these very same things. Then I see this post which tells me that there is a Spirit flowing and we are interconnected more so than ever. We are on a crest of a wave. It’s bigger than many here can conceive because of their political views direct them to sources that only confirm those views. There is a larger picture and those pictures are dismissed and criticized.

    Apologies for tone and if it was too much. However, the truth is the truth.

  82. Kenny Atnip Jul 10th 2012

    Matthew 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

  83. Some people won’t love God until they are burning in the lake of fire. No matter how much arrogance they speak with, they will know His name is the Lord when they are destroyed forever. Those who kill with the sword must in that manner be killed with the sword, this is the patience and faith of the saints. We only have a little while to go! Hang in there brothers and sisters! Be strong in the Lord!

  84. truthseeker2 Jul 10th 2012

    Amen Ruth!!!!!



  86. Wyndle Jul 10th 2012

    Andrew are you related to Jesse or Al? You sound just like those so called christian prophets who march for the poor and spew nothing but hate and discontent. It is obvious from your liberal tribe that you are from a socialist background and thus your sense of entitlement.
    Some here such as Rod, Terry, Reese, Marty, and especially Noah, LC, and Janice have said all I could say, you are not a child of this country so you will never understand our belief in the pursuit of life, liberty, and justice for all. We believe in working for what we have and sharing it with others but liberals such as myrtletree and so called truthseeker2 believe that it is some kind of given right to have someone else take care of you when you would not do so for yourself and I would ask them to point out to me where in our constitution or the bible it gives them that right.
    I am not rich in any sense of the word, I work twelve to sixteen hours a day seven days a week to keep a roof over my familys head and try to keep them healthy and safe and I am tired of having someone else tell me I have to give most of my hard earned income to help support those who would not work so hard or come to this country illegally just to take advantage of our generosity.
    I believe most of our citizens respect the office of the president but not necessarily this man who came from obscurity and secrecy and has spent millions to keep his history a secret. He promised hope and change but has not produced anything but a huge new tax, and has added more people to the unemployed and welfare and our debt than any other time in history so yes many are disappointed in him and are not all are not speaking well of him right now.
    You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine and I think you are the one who like some of the ones you complain about do so just to get attention, otherwise no one would read this junk eh?. My mother used to say “when you point a finger at others remember there are three pointing right back at you”.
    P.S. Have you guessed I am a proud member of the Tea Party?
    God Bless

  87. Roxanne Barrett Jul 10th 2012

    When it comes to politics, we shouldn’t be siding up with any of it as Believers. Jesus isn’t the priority there. He isn’t being lifted up-agendas are. Father has all this stuff in his hands, and we should be focused on the Kingdom of God, and walking in that, for we are no longer citizen’s of this world.

  88. Wow! You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. While your description of the tea party may fit a small minority of those who belong to the movement it is a major distortion of what I know first had to be the truth. Stick to commenting on what you know rather than what you dimly observe from 1/2 way across the world.

  89. Listen to the instruction for believers in Christ.
    Go, make disciples, teach them to observe everything I have told you.
    He who hears My words and does them is a wise man.
    Whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected.
    You are My friends, if you do what I command you.
    If you love Me you will obey Me.
    If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
    If you don’t obey Me, you don’t love Me.
    Why do you call Me Lord, if you don’t do what I say?
    He who is ashamed of Me and My words.
    He who rejects Me and doesn’t receive My sayings.
    My words will judge him in the last day.
    Be doers and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
    There are dozens and dozens more NT scriptures instructing us to obey Jesus Christ and to keep His words. THAT is to be our pursuit, our goal, our ambition, and our passion as christians. To follow Jesus and obey Him. THAT is our biblical mandate, there is no other. Period.
    My favorite scripture:
    “If any man advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing. 1Tim 6:3-4
    Now where is the NT instruction on patriotism and love of country for christians? Where is the NT sanction for war and killing in defense of earthly freedom? Where are we instructed as christians to enter the political fray to preserve our nation and “take back our country”?
    Let me answer… it isn’t there. Anywhere. Search for yourself. This is nothing more than adding to the words of God. We are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Jesus Christ being such. This is human reasoning usurping the authority of the words of the Son of God.There is no more biblical sanction of political process and patriotic duty for believers than there is for the lunacy of christian world domination by the dominionists. In fact, they are secular cousins. Two peas from the same pod.
    When I became a christian 35+ years ago, I witnessed first hand the rise of the Moral Majority or Christian Right or whatever other name it goes by. What a great idea it seemed to be. But now I must ask, where is the fruit? What is the result? Where is the betterment of our society and advancement of morality and decency in our culture? These were held forth as potential future attainments in that day. Christians were gonna fix everything that was wrong with politics and government. We had arrived to save the day. Has our government been improved or purified? Have morals been improved in our nation? As an example, I have lived to see homosexuality, which was at one time considered perverse, rise to the level of acceptance and respectability in our culture. No amount of political activism by the moral crowd has been able to stop it. Carnal weapons will never thwart spiritual assaults, on individuals or nations.
    Most all of us, who have been around for a while, can sense that this nation is slipping away from what we all hoped it would continue to be. Why? With all the christian bluster and politcal agenda that is put forth you would think that things would be just fine. Answer. We are doing it wrong!! A return to a radical discipleship of obedience that Jesus taught, where we would become salt and light to a dying world, drawing them to Christ, is the true path. Transformed lives, not political activism is what christianity is about. Do I think it will spare America? NO! Is that the goal? NO! The goal is to build the church. To save a people out from among the nations for His name. A remnant of faithful disciples seeking God’s agenda(the church) through God’s methods(discipleship) is the best hope America has of enduring.

  90. truthseeker2 Jul 10th 2012

    Amen James!!!!

  91. Traveler Jul 10th 2012

    The Tea party is a political movement, not a religious one. It just happens to have a lot of Christians in it because most American Christians are conservative and do not like to see their countries constitution trashed through deceptive legislation.

    Politicians see the potential in the tea party as a ground swell and want to take advantage for votes etc. Religion is to the politician a tool to motivate the masses so they have stepped in with the religious rhetoric and now the secular and the spiritual has been adulterated.

    A properly grounded Christian should be able to see right through this but alas, there are not too many of those left either.

  92. jmlanca Jul 10th 2012

    First, your view of the “tea party” is skewed by how the media reports their beliefs and activities. The media hates the tea party, and unless you participate in some of their activities, you cannot know the true heart of the movement.

    Second, the Tea Party is not a political party, but a label that has been placed on a grass-roots movement of Americans that love the idea of Liberty and Freedom. Many in the movement are true Bible believing Christians, but many simply want the same freedoms afforded to them that we, as Christians, want afforded to us. Freedom says you can live life the way you choose, as long as it doesn’t affect another person’s God given rights to life, liberty, or property.

    Third, it is ALWAYS immoral and unchristian to take one person’s property by force and give it to another person. Many Christians think it is okay to take money (by force) from one person and use it to feed the hungry, or provide health care, etc. But when that same principle is used (taking money from one and giving it to another) to help pay for an abortion, they cry foul, and are abhorred by the thought that our money would be used for such an abomination against our beliefs. But the principle is the same. If it is okay to take money from one person and use it to provide food, shelter, medical, etc, then it is equally okay when it is used for something you disagree with, like abortion. We cannot have it both ways.

    The United States is one of the most charitable nations in the world. As a nation, most people agree (whether Christian or non-Christian) that we need to help our brothers and sisters who are less fortunate. The disagreement comes with how that is best accomplished. The Tea Party recognizes that the government is the most corrupt, inefficient, and ineffective way to provide that charity.

    Walter Williams said it very well in the following article:

    Immoral Beyond Redemption
    by Walter Williams

    Benjamin Franklin, statesman and signer of our Declaration of Independence, said: “Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.” John Adams, another signer, echoed a similar statement: “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” Are today’s Americans virtuous and moral, or have we become corrupt and vicious? Let’s think it through with a few questions.

    Suppose I saw an elderly woman painfully huddled on a heating grate in the dead of winter. She’s hungry and in need of shelter and medical attention. To help the woman, I walk up to you using intimidation and threats and demand that you give me $200. Having taken your money, I then purchase food, shelter and medical assistance for the woman. Would I be guilty of a crime? A moral person would answer in the affirmative. I’ve committed theft by taking the property of one person to give to another.

    Most Americans would agree that it would be theft regardless of what I did with the money. Now comes the hard part. Would it still be theft if I were able to get three people to agree that I should take your money? What if I got 100 people to agree — 100,000 or 200 million people? What if instead of personally taking your money to assist the woman, I got together with other Americans and asked Congress to use Internal Revenue Service agents to take your money? In other words, does an act that’s clearly immoral and illegal when done privately become moral when it is done legally and collectively? Put another way, does legality establish morality? Before you answer, keep in mind that slavery was legal; apartheid was legal; the Nazi’s Nuremberg Laws were legal; and the Stalinist and Maoist purges were legal. Legality alone cannot be the guide for moral people. The moral question is whether it’s right to take what belongs to one person to give to another to whom it does not belong.

  93. Eric Swensson Jul 10th 2012

    So sorry to hear all this. Andrew, how is it possible that you want to wade into American politics? However, it is really fairly typical of the anti-Americanism I hear from internationals. You should try to understand how partisan you sound to an American with a biblical worldview–that is why people think you are a socialist.

    There is no way you are going to get out of this one. Give it up.

    My personal belief is you are very wrong. However, I do not think it is anything but an utter waste of time to help you understand. You would have to come live her for a while. But please, do not do that until after the election. The evil one does not need any help and there is no doubt you would be used as a tool to reelect the biggest crook this country has ever had in office.


  94. LC,

    You wrote,”This nation is the only one founded on a covenant with God – therefore it has a special relationship with God, that is why it has prospered over every nation in the world”

    No, LC. No. Can you find a bicameral legislature in the Bible? Or perhaps the notion of representative democracy? The U.S. was CERTAINLY influenced by its Christian heritage (her ideas, symbols, etc.). But the framers of the Constitution did not strike a covenant with God. It is God who initiates covenants with us, not the other way around. The framers of the Constitution were intellectually inspired by a combination of revived Greco-Roman political philosophy, Enlightenment philosophy, and popular economic philosophies of the day. Some of those framers were overtly spiritual in their tone. Others were FAR from spiritual. And this country has not always prospered. But when it did prosper, the factors are very visible. There aren’t any parted seas here. We are flanked by two oceans, then two mountain ranges, and in the middle we have some of the most fertile land in the entier world. This meant that for hundreds of years we enjoyed a natural kind of security and fertility that other parts of the world could only have dreamt of. Not to mention that after WWII, we owned 50% of the world’s manufacturing capacity and EVERYONE wanted what we made. Our prosperity came about for very natural reasons. Now, I DO believe that God steers the course of history (though I also believe in free will). And I know the Word says He sets nations up and can take them down. But this idea that America is somehow spiritually exceptional because of a mystic covenant smells of “replacement theology” (the idea that America is somehow a modern day Israel). It is not.

    LC, you also wrote “Americans want to help those in need but not those in GREED. About “the rich” – the rich give a LOT, both in charity and in taxes. Giving is always supposed to be about FREE WILL and not government mandate. Americans don’t have a problem supporting the poor but some of us do have a problem supporting freeloaders and those who are not willing to put forth the effort it takes to support themselves and their own families. ”

    The rich, as a percentage of their income, do NOT give a lot. They give out of their wealth. Reread the Biblical event of the woman with two coins and the wealthy giver. Also, you say Americans are OK supporting the poor but not freeloaders. Fair enough. I’d also like to see better ways to encourage work among those who are able. But wouldn’t you call it freeloading when an oil company rakes in BILLIONS in PROFIT each year, but still receives massive tax breaks just for being an oil company? Those tax breaks are made up for by you and me. These are fledgling industries. These are mature and profitable industries that no longer NEED the tax breaks to survive. But the moment we ask for them to give them up, you hear cries of socialism. How tiring.

    Lastly, LC, you wrote ““Big Business” is what supplies JOBS and therefore prosperity to the public. Stand against business and you stand for a marxist state- a small elite class ruling a huge lower class – rather than a huge MIDDLE CLASS which is an indicator of a nation’s prosperity. ”

    No. Wrong. The Small Business Administration and the Bureau of Labor and Statistics disagree with you. Most new jobs are introduced to the economy through small and medium businesses. And most small businesses are not started by billionaires. When was the last time Bill Gates started a laundromat? Big Business needs to be kept under tight watch by an elected government because they are in the best position to use their wealth to exploit our political institutions and damage our republic. This has happened many times before. It should not even be a point of argument any more (but somehow it is).

    And, by the way, you have Marx all wrong. I’m not pro-Marx, but he never advocated a small elite that runs a huge underclass. But I can tell you someone who apparently does. Those who believe in the notion of an unfettered free market – a near-religious devotion to this completely AHISTORICAL notion that the market will always take care of itself. This belief, where it has been strongly implemented without serious boundaries, has resulted in JUST the kind of thing you’re talking about.

    Consider this, in America right now, the top 400 income earners in our country hold onto more wealth than the bottom 150,000,000 combined. COMBINED. 400 people have more wealth at their disposal than the combined population of nearly half the U.S. states. That is where we are NOW… after 30+ years of lowering taxes for the wealthy, deregulating industries, wiping out trade taxes, not enforcing regulations, etc. The dream of the Friedmans, Rands, and Greenspans of this world is proving to be an illusion.

    This doesn’t mean our only other option is socialism. It just means that even capitalism needs boundaries. Why? Because fallen humans thought it up in the first place.

    You said Jesus was never about taking from the rich and giving to the poor. But you’re actually wrong. He specifically TOLD someone to do that. And they were so offended by the command, that he walked away.

  95. Ugandaprof Jul 10th 2012

    Ruth, there is salvation in the name of Jesus, no other, not yah The sacred name movement is cultic and misguided. You need to get away from those that would take you back to the law and the keeping of jewish festivals and embrace the creator God of the universe the Lord Jesus Christ!

    Truth seeker 2 really??? Lets open your giving record since you seem to have opinions about the generosity level of tea party members. I give 70% of my income and 100% of my time to live in Uganda and preach the gospel to the Islamists, provide a free clinic for children (250 – 350) per day, plant churches among unreached people groups and teach in a seminary for village church leaders. I am a tea party guy. I’ll match my giving record with you my friend any day. I give and sacrifice because I have been blessed with a great salvation that I could not have obtained any other way but through Jesus death in my place on the cross. I don’t give to be saved. I give because I am saved.

    Many of you that responded to andrews post today including Andrew have espoused nothing but socialism while demonstrating hate toward those of us in the conservative camp in America. I oppose you!

    You have shown a leaning toward a situational ethic based on a humanistic ideology of fairness which is NOT part of biblical truth, and just essentially stuck your noses into areas that are above your pay grade? To blanket accuse tea party people of loving war is a lie. To accuse the tea party of just supporting the rich and hating the poor is also a lie. I oppose you!

    The woman from Texas just needs to move to Detroit if it’s so bad here. Andrew I have bought your books and been blessed by your emails but today I am repulsed by the direction you decided the column needed to go. Your readers jumped on the bandwagon and accused people like me of being non-Christian, or nazi’s. I oppose you!

    Andrew I am wondering if this is payback at being denied entrance into the USA last year because it really looks like you got up this morning with a chip on your shoulder!

    Do you people really believe obamacare is what we need? I am a 66 year old ex marine vet that paid dearly for the freedom that you all seem willing to give up. How’s that socialized medicine plan working out for you across the pond? Everyone has coverage? Yes! BUT they can’t get in for treatment for MONTHS or they are told its too expensive at their age.

    Speaking out against a leader does not make you non christian! Pray for our leaders? Yes! But the political system here is based on dialogue and voting to get rid of bad ones or keep good ones. Obama is a lying, pro-abortion, non-citizen illegally elected islamic president that in my opinion is guilty of treason, who is bent on destroying America by his own hand of bankrupting us. I pray for him to repent and be saved in the name of Jesus. I also pray he will be defeated in November.

    Andrew i love most of what you write but today you need to back off and butt out. You are dead dog wrong! You actually don’t know what you are talking about concerning American politics. I think the Lord would be very comfortable eating dinner with the tea party people. I guess you accomplished your task if it was getting a bunch of us riled up! You werent prophetic today, just divisive. Way to go, Andrew. What good did this do?

  96. The Canadian health care plan, I don’t know how well it works. But in our country it is being used as a power grab for an enlarged and more powerful federal government, not to help the people. It may be possible to expand healthcare her for those in need, but Canada is not being plagued by 10-20 million illegals (not that the people are bad but they belong in their own country which they should fight to improve so they can support their families). Canada is not the originator of most of the health care advances in the world, the U.S. is. Canada does not spend billions on foreign aid, to my knowledge. Canada is protected by its proximity to the U.S. Canada did not save Europe from Hitler, the U.S. did. Canada is not as big a target for Satan as the U.S. is.
    We have Medicaid here for the poor, and Medicare for the elderly. Everyone else can get health care but they may have to wait for it or pay for it themselves. Or get neighborhood or community or church or family help. Or at last resort, believe God for deliverance! It’s not “all about me”, it’s “all about the Word of God” and “believing God” and not putting our trust in man or in the government. The U.S. could probably provide all free health care IF we didn’t have so many free-loaders and lazy and illegals; and if we had a prosperous country. But since in America we have a Constitution, it should be done state by state (like Romney in Massachusetts) and not forced upon us by an ever-increasing Federal Government. Maybe you don’t have this kind of a problem in Canada, but we do. Maybe your politicians aren’t as power-hungry, I don’t know. Again, Satan wants to destroy the U.S. because it is the one place that has fought tyranny and has stood for God…he wants America out of the way so he can do what he wills all over the world. Remember we wrestle not against flesh and blood.

  97. truthseeker2 Jul 10th 2012

    Quite scary the true colours and stores of mens hearts that is being exposed here. So true that where your treasure is there so will be your heart.

  98. Dear Andrew,

    They really do not understand. They do not know of that brand of socialism that has its roots in the Methodist /Evangelical revival and the subsequnt social reforms that came first in the UK and a long way second in the US. They do not know that this all happened long before Marx penned a Godless version of it.

    They do not know the Old Testament and the commands to have just society. It is the job of a godly government to regulate business and ensure that it is honest. Government and Justice are to be biased in favour of the poor. The religious tithe supported the Temple and the priesthood but the work of the priests and the Temple included Health, Education and Law. Yes it did, people. It was more basic and for a mainly agricultural society but it was there. The laws of inheritance put a curb on amassing too much wealth. Agricultural laws made sure that there was free food left for the poor to harvest. See Ruth for an example and Jesus and His disciples for another.

    We have to work out how to apply these principles in our modern societies. That is the job of godly politics.

    Obamacare may not be the right solution or the best, but leaving sick to die because they are poor is clearly wrong.

    We, as Christians, have to speak truth to the powerful, no matter who they are.

    Our American brethren cannot see what everyone else sees. ‘America First’ is not in the Bible; ‘God First’ is. Only Israel and the Church have Divine mandates. The rest of the nations and the unbelievers will face judgement.

    We in the UK supported the US in its recent wars, but now many are thinking that it was a waste of blood and treasure. US attitudes to the UK (pinko,commie, socialist bar stewards [or something like that;-) ]). I’ve never liked Obama. I always saw him as another Tony Blair, both sellers of political snake-oil.

    My views are, mostly, sympathetic to a genuine conservatism. In the UK politicians like Michael Gove and Iain Duncan Smith come to mind, but not most of what passes for the Conservative party. I have good, christian friend who was a Labour politician in Europe. It’s called being salt and light. It might surprise our US friends to know that this Labour (Christian socialist) politician led the Christian prayer- breakfast in the EU parliament for quite few years. It would surprise them to know the range of political views and backgrounds that met together in prayer. Right-wing nationalist Protestants, working-class London cockney, Aristocratic socialist Austro-Hungarians all in fellowship with Jesus. We see things differently to the US. We have to. We have more people, countries, languages etc in a smaller space. We may not always be right, but we’re not always wrong either.

  99. While I read some good opposing comments and I understand where they are coming from, I still say Andrew is right on. The uniting of church and politics can be just as dangerous as the left wing socialists. It is very easy to be wrapped up in presidential elections and the “right” agenda that we lose our first love. I plan on voting and I will vote for Romney but at the same time, we are called to spread the gospel that saves the soul and delivers from sin, and it is very hard to do that if we are spewing out hatred toward the left and even toward Obama. I’m not accusing anyone but I’ve been to bible studies that get side-tracked on anti-Obama so much that I feel like walking out. That is not what I go to church for. I don’t want to fear the left or hate them. I want them to see the love of God within us, that love so powerful that is warns of sin and tells of the need for salvation through faith in Christ. Maybe those in the Tea Party can do both but I confess my own weakness here. I can’t. I either have to consentrate on one or the other. I can’t witness to anyone I fear is going to take over the world and turn us into liberals. I too hate abortion and the rising divorce rate, sexual immorality and such but I don’t think it is something that we can legislate. Only a mighty powerful national repentance can do it. Our nation is too far gone that a Republican or Tea Party president is going to fix. It will take the power of God and return to the original gospel.

  100. truthseeker2 Jul 10th 2012

    Wow Ugandaprof. You have just exemplified exactly what we have been saying here. The mean, attacking, defensive spirit that tea partiers have; if anyone dares expose them and they launch out the personal attacks. How many posters did you manage to personally attack in your rant?
    BTW some wise words my friend: Matthew 6:3-4.

  101. great word, brother kenny,, that says it all,, no one will get around that word,, and if anyone is wondering who is thier nieghbor, the parable of the good samaritan will answer that ?????

    and amen james,,

    blessings to one and all , neighbor or enemy,,

  102. Cody, Cody, I don’t have time or inclination to go over all you have said, but:
    Did you ever hear of the Pilgrims? THEY made the covenant with God. When you get married YOU make a covenant with God, so it is available to initiate a covenant, by the way. “Covenant”, that’s pretty much a promise, a vow to God, what is un-Biblical about that? A lot of you people just don’t get how Satan is at work in this world.

  103. Jarrod,

    I think I made it clear that personal responsibility as a value is boringly obvious. What I was referring to was the way I have PERSONALLY heard Tea Partiers use that phrase and then expand upon it. Their expansion of the idea reveals what I described – that it is commonly used as a euphemism.

    Paul was not giving an eleventh commandment. Paul was addressing specific problems in specific congregations. Some had argued we should do armed insurrection. Some had thought that since the end was so near (as many assumed) that they could get away with doing nothing. Indolence is bad human characteristic. But the problem I have is the assumption that someone being poor means we can ASSUME they are also lazy. I have known many people that have used some form of government assistance in their lives to varying degrees. And I wouldn’t call a single one of them lazy. My wife works in social work and she sees thousands of people each year. Nearly ALL of them want legitimate work if they can get it. And the VERY TINY FRACTION of people who are trying to game the system are the exception, not the rule.

    The Father’s grace tolerates an idolatrous race – generation after generation, for the “few” who will choose to be His. Similarly, I can tolerate those gaming the system if it means I can help those who aren’t. I will not throw good people under the bus, just so I can feel like I’ve dealt justice to the schemers. That is reverse Gospel.

    Personal responsibility? Yes. Am I my brother’s keeper? Yes.


    Sorry Andrew, but you appear to have fallen victim to the liberal media who have been on a campaign of distortion regarding the Tea Party.

    1. An Unhealthy Mixing of Christianity with Nationalism.

    The Tea Party is not attempting to be a Christian political mission (or Dominionism), it’s merely Christians exercising their obligation to be involved in the politics of the land.

    Do you think US Christians should not try and influence politics at all? Christians have been involved in politics in loads of nations over the centuries, why are US Christians exempt?

    You use the phrase “wrap the cross in the flag”, well my British flag is made up of Saint Andrew’s (hello:) cross, Saint George’s cross and Saint Patrick’s cross! Do you think Britain, New Zealand and Australia should remove the crosses from their flags?

    It’s the liberal media that are trying to paint the Tea Party as a radical far-right religious organization. The reality is far different.

    2) Being Basically the Biggest Supporters of WAR in America.

    Andrew, are you a pacifist? Do you think our nations should not have stood against Hitler?
    What about Saddam Hussein and his sons, killing hundreds of thousands of their own people. Horribly torturing people, particularly Iraqi Christians, putting live people through plastic shredding machines and worse! I thank God, as do most Iraqis – regardless of many mistakes and failures – that that family is no longer ruling.

    Besides, the Tea Party is merely about fiscal responsibility. The claims that they have other agendas are left-wing attempts to muddy the waters.

    3. Siding with the Rich and Against the Poor.

    Another distortion of the truth. The Tea Party isn’t about class warfare. In fact – talking of class warfare – Obama’s policys and attitude are basically Marxist.

    The Tea Party is trying to fight against the creep of Socialism, and even Marxism under Obama.
    Or does being a Christian mean we have to embrace Socialism? On the surface Socialism sounds like the rich are forced to look out for the poor, but that’s not what happens.

    Socialism destroys the working class. Look at Britain, where those who work are forced to support those who choose not to work. Those who work are taxed so heavily that they earn little more than if they stayed home and collect from government (the working tax payers).

    The future for Socialist nations is high taxes, debt and poverty. If you truly care about the poor, join the Tea Party and fight against Socialism. :-)

    Of course Christians must look after the poor, in every way we know how. But not by giving money to a Socialist government to waste and redistribute as they see fit. In fact it’s Christians like you Andrew, who are tying the hope of the poor to the government!

    4. HEALTH CARE – Denying it to the Needy.

    “Do you know that millions and millions of Americans are being
    denied basic Health coverage that is totally taken for granted in
    other countries? And that it is the CHRISTIANS who want to deny
    it to them?”

    This is just not true. Where on earth are you getting your news? Let me guess: The BBC, the Bolshevik Broadcasting Company. You can’t get much more bias and left-wing than the BBC.
    However, millions and millions of Americans will be denied basic health care if the Tea Party fails and American continues on the road she’s on.

    And do you know that there are multitudes of Americans
    who wind up bankrupt or losing their home simply because they
    can’t pay their medical bills?

    It does happen, but not as often as the liberal media want you to believe. But what’s your alternative, raise taxes on businesses, who then have to cut costs (jobs) and instead someone loses their house because they lost their job. And the reason the US has the best health care in the world is because of its more capitalist approach. US health care saves thousands of lives that would have died under a poorer less sophisticated socialized health care. So you rob Peter to pay Paul!

    Obamacare, as ruled by the Supreme Court, is just a huge tax raise. Any country can provide the best care for the poorest, but not for long. High taxes cripple economies. A healthy economy is usually the best way to look after the poor, and make sure there are few of them.

    But in the end can’t Christians and Americans decide for themselves how they want their health care to operate? Why should foreigners tell them they must have a Socialist system? Isn’t the Tea Party just entering into a democratic public discourse. Meanwhile, propaganda like your article Andrew – distorts the views of US Christians to the point of absurdity.

    5. Pushing the Idea that “Political” Answers can Solve America’s

    The great irony here is that your article is pushing left-wing political answers.

    I don’t think Tea Partiers believe that their fiscal concerns are going to solve America’s spiritual problems. I don’t. Can you show me where they’ve claimed this? I support the Tea Party, but that doesn’t mean I have my head in the sand regarding the issues of evangelism, missions, spiritual warfare, and eschatology.

    Just because someone is a member of the Tea Party, doesn’t mean that their hope isn’t in Christ alone. Many go to prayer meetings every week, evangelize their neighbours and hope for a better America for their grandchildren.

    In summary, I want to say that you need to stop believing everything the Main Stream Media is telling you. The left-wing MSM delights in painting right-wingers and Christians as “ugly, mean-spirited and anger-filled”. Don’t further damage the church by disseminating their propaganda for them.

    In Christ,
    Simon Whitton

  105. Doug P. Jul 10th 2012
  106. amen to that truth seeker,, and mr ugnadaprof, for your information I have nothing to do with the yahwehists or the law,, I am a member of the body of messiah,, a living stone in a spiritual house,a member of the ekklesia,, and as such I choose to follow my Lord, outside of the camp.., my reasons for using His hebrew name is personal, however since you choose to be an accuser of the brethren, I declare that the accuser of the brethren has been cast down. so get behind me satan, for you are an offense, for you mind the things of man and not YHWH, THE LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH..

  107. Anthony Donaghey Jul 10th 2012

    Now, what was the topic again? LOL

  108. Doug P. Jul 10th 2012

    can I get some commentary on the above site? TYVM


  110. zeal4thyhouse Jul 10th 2012

    Quite scary the true colours and stores of men’s hearts that is being exposed here.
    Yes, and very very scary how people can defend any other thing, party or association like this, but utterly fail to defend the ONLY ONE that can save them, Christ Jesus my Lord!


    People need to come to true repentance.

  111. Doug P. Jul 10th 2012

    Ruth,are you a Christian Zionist? Just curious…

  112. L. Alex Smith Jul 10th 2012

    There are two issues going on here, that I perceive: 1) What the TEA party does or does not stand for, and 2) the correct Christian response to involvement (of any kind or degree) in Politics. The acronym TEA is Taxed Enough Already! That echoes the original 1770’s cry of the “Sons of Liberty” in the New England colonies with “No taxation without representation” –primarily against the Stamp Tax Act, plus others. It came to a head with a new tax on tea, whereupon a certain group dressed as Native American Indians (fooled nobody) forcibly boarde the English vessel and broke open the tea chests and dumped them into the Boston harbour! (Can’t be taxed on tea that was never brought ashore). But aside from the original history, the ideas that I heard promoted in 2007 and 2008 in the States before I moved to Scotland, were to protest the rise in Taxes (Taxed Enough Already), and to stand against bigger government. Ronald Reagan said “When government increases, liberty decreases.”
    2) The correct Christian response to involvement in politics is a bit of a conundrum: in one sense, we are not of this world, and our kingdom is not of this world. When sinful men rule over sinful kingdoms, that is to be expected. The satan is called “the god of this world”. However, both ancient Israel, Britain, and the USA share a theocratic history, and deep influence into their operation–one which is being eroded away from its Godly aspects into more secular and even evil, ungodly aspects. The very ABILITY to vote is recent development in the history of the world…I believe that it ought not to be squandered. “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing” G.K. Chesterton.
    That being said, all this about healthcare and caring for the poor is missing the entire spiritual point of the Way of Jesus:
    Healthcare: how many Christians are focussing the eyes of their hearts and spirits on the mighty promises of the Lord, and pressing in to a deeper relationship with Him, and obtaining the GIFT OF HEALING that is available? “And these signs shall follows them that Believe….they shall lay their hands upon the sick, and they shall recover.” (Mark 16:19) how many of us possess that? How many of us are trying to possess that? Caring for the poor? Separating the “sheep” from the “goats”: notice that it isn’t how correct your doctrines are–it’s how generous your heart is. No money to give to the poor–if only we were richer….??? NONSENSE! You don’t NEED money…you need the Lord’s direction, faith in Him, His promises, and clearly Hearing His voice— everything will be provided!!! “Give, and it shall be given to you; good measure,. pressed down, shall men give into your bosom.” This verse has been misquoted by the “prosperity” bunch as Give = Tithe; but it means give to those who can’t pay it back, and even to those who are “evil” or your enemy—read the context! NO MONEY–when did that ever stop the Lord? Look at the Loaves & Fishes– “Lord, it would take 200 denarii to feed this lot” Peter objects. Yeshua ignored that, broke up a boy’s meager lunch and fed 5,000 men, not including women and children present. (One denarius would be a Day’s Wage for a common labourer, so about $ 80 or £ 55.) When are the Christians going to start ignoring the World System and step into the Spirit, where God provides what we need…? If you want to feed the poor, do it! (If God is really leading you). He WILL provide the means necessary! But most of the Church is strangely silent on this issue of Trusting Him. It’s all either Government, or it our own material efforts…leaving out the core issue–pressing into the Spirit of the Living God. Where? WHEN?

  113. Dear heavenly Father, please give us the wisdom of Solomon which is needed here so we don’t cut the baby in two……..there is a Tree of the knowledge of Good and the knowledge of Evil and they are ever at war with one another, this is Satan’s divided kingdom which cannot stand, and no matter how well-meaning even the knowledge of Good is not from the Tree of Life which is first of all peaceable…….

    In other words, rather than good vs. evil, there is a third option which is the way of Life and the Spirit, and I pray He will help us to find it.

  114. LC, you wrote..
    “What the people LACKED was GOD – the Word of God, the knowledge of God, the love of God, the faith in God to provide. He wanted people to learn how to believe GOD to meet their needs – not people and not the government! That’s what’s really lacking in all these discussions, and in your dissertation. All this reliance on government and taxes and health insurance puts the emphasis OFF believing God for deliverance, and looking to the world for deliverance.”

    No, LC. You missed my point and then sort of MADE my point for me.

    Jesus didn’t walk up to the poor and say, “you just need God, that’s what you’re lacking.” He HELPED THEM … physically, materially. He WAS God meeting their needs. And Jesus was bringing the Kingdom into effect (He was the “first fruits” of the Kingdom). We are called to be HIM to the world. He said that we’ll do what He did and MORE. More caring for the infirm. More concern for the socially weak – those most likely to be exploited by fallen world powers. This is why widows are mentioned at all. They are in one of the weakest social positions at that time.

    I’m not lacking dependence on God in my “dissertation.” Jesus IS God. And I’m saying that we’re called to be Jesus to the world – His Spirit in us, doing His work.

    I didn’t make a plug for people depending on government or taxes. You inferred that because of the opinions you’ve already formed about me. In fact, I argued that if we let Jesus live through us in this world, governments and tax-givers will get ticked off at how we peacefully subvert their systems of power and justice with love.

    Jesus fed the thousands because they were hungry. This demonstrated to them that God CARED – not just about their spirituality (such a 19th, 20th century idea). He cared about their entire life. Every cell. Every hair.

  115. This post and discussion illustrate the trap that lies open for us. The scripture has nothing to say about the political organisation of our countries nor about their policies; it merely commands obedience to secular rulers (Rom 13:1-7). For most people, in most of history, that is the end of it. But in Western countries we have representative democracy, which makes us, in some degree, part of the rulers and therefore makes us responsibile for what we do to influence our governments.

    Therefore, Andrew, I think you are wrong to condemn people for being involved in political campaigning. That is how politics is done in America. Therefore, as citizens, American Christians have a responsilbility to do what they can to have their government act in accordance with God’s will.

    The bible does not give a great deal of help there, but certain principles can be seen. First, when Israel asked for a king, Samuel warned them what they would be getting — someone who would seize their goods and their children and put them to forced labour (1 Sam 8:10-18). Deuteronomy restricts what the king should do (Deut:17:14-20). From these we can see that the Tea Party’s desire for small government is biblical.

    Next, the bible strongly supports voluntary assistance for the poor but gives no support to compulsory redistribution. The Chrisitan social action that grew up in Britain in the 19th century has been taken over by the government and has turned from voluntary giving into entitlement. But the scripture says, “If a man will not work, neither let him eat” (2 Thess 3:10) and that in the context of the church. Someone who won’t work is not to depend on his brothers for charity; how much less should he depend on the state! Neither does the bible give any support to the idea of universal healthcare. This is yet another area where the poor are disadvantaged, but it is for those who have some money to help them directly, not for the government to seize money from people in order to force unwilling giving. (“So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or by compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” 2 Cor 9:7) Admittedly it was nice to live in Britain, where healthcare cost me nothing directly, which is not the case in my present residence in France, but if it were to be taken away I could give no biblical reason why I should continue to receive it.

    A third point is that American politics are very polarised and also very polarising, and that is evident in this discussion. It is spiritually dangerous because it can lead to unchristian attitudes. You are right to point that out. We should pray for our leaders, and Americans should pray for their president; but they also are part of the rulers, as I said above, and they can and maybe should pray that their current president should not be re-elected and that what they consider his disastrous policies should not be carried through. As citizens with the right to vote, it is their responsibility to work towards what they consider best for their country. But in doing so, they should not claim that either side is of God, because godly men may have reason to decide for one party or another and should not condemn each other on the basis of that choice. In the end, Christ’s kingdom is not of this world, and cannot be advanced by the methods of this world.

  116. ChildofGod Jul 10th 2012

    LC – wherever did you get the notion “Canada did not save Europe from Hitler, the U.S. did. ” Canada was in the war long before the USA entered into the foray. There seems to be a lot of mis-information being dished out today. One needs to state facts and not beliefs.

    Britain and France declared war on the Nazi Third Reich on September 3, 1939. Seven days later, on September 10, 1939, the Parliament of Canada likewise declared war on Germany,..On June 6, 1944, the 3rd Canadian Division landed on Juno Beach in the Battle of Normandy and sustained 50% casualties in their first hour of attack. By the end of D-Day, the Canadians had penetrated deeper into France than either the British or the American troops at their landing sites, overcoming stronger resistance than any of the other beachheads except Omaha Beach.

    The USA remained neutral until December 1941, after the attack of Pearl Harbor they entered WWII.

    Here is Canada’s WWII History – http://www.canadaatwar.ca/world-war-ii/

    I know so much about your country and politics because I was raised on US TV programming. It is surprising how little our neighbours know about us, your main suppliers of oil.

    But then again, what does it matter when one has citizenship in the Kingdom of God.


  117. Just take a minute to remember the prophets. Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc. Few people liked them. They were voices crying in the wilderness, warning people. They told the truth to the people and they didn’t like it. The prophets were killed, horribly. The people wanted their kings, they wanted their leaders to fight their battles. They didn’t want to obey God and believe God to provide for them and fight for them. They wanted a king and they got a king, but not before they were warned. Samuel warned them (I Sam. 8). The elders got together and told Samuel “you are old, and your sons are no good anyway; so now we want a king (not God and not God’s men) to judge (rule over) us;” we want “a king to judge us LIKE ALL THE (OTHER) NATIONS.” God told Samuel to give the people what they wanted. But he warned them what will happen: “This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: he will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots and to be his horsemen (the draft); …and he will take your daughters (to work)…and he will take your fields, and give them to his servants…and he will take your men and possesions, and put them to HIS work; he will take a tenth of your sheep, and you shall be his servants. And you shall cry out in that day because of your king, which ye shall have chosen; and the Lord will not hear you in that day. Nevertheless, the people ReFUSED TO OBEY THE VOICE OF SAMUEL AND THEY SAID NO, BUT WE WILL HAVE A KING OVER US, THAT WE ALSO MAY BE LIKE ALL THE NATIONS, AND THAT OUR KING MAY JUDGE US, AND GO OUT BEFORE US, AND FIGHT OUR BATTLES.”

  118. And one more thing, LC

    In agreement with L Alex Smith above, I would clarify by saying that I’m not putting my eggs in a fallen world’s basket to accomplish these things. I act on these things right NOW in the very sphere of relationships God has given me.

    The essence of the original post was about whether the Tea Party movement is something Christians should support. But trusting in the Tea Party movement (or its ideals) is no different than trusting in a particular government. It still sets our gaze on human invention over the love of Christ pouring out of us. It places trust in human systems.

    I have no answer as to whether people should be involved in the Tea Party movement. I think it helps to have followers of Christ everywhere if possible. But it’s definitely not my cup of….

  119. I know… GROOOAAAAAN

  120. kathleen Jul 10th 2012

    This article is misinformed, misguided, sensationally written and gossip driven. I can’t help but think it was written as a slap in the face rather than in any sincere desire to have a non-political dialogue over the “separation of church and state”. I live in America and have never heard of the term “Teavangelicals” until I read this article. Hmmm.
    Just did a google search of the term. Apparently it was first coined by conservative reporter David Brody. It is a relatively new term being used to describe a specific wing of the American Tea Party. The following is a brief article on the history of the moniker.

    Andrew, you said in your summation that,
    “I want to say that I believe that many of the attitudes
    and behaviours of the “Tea Party” evangelicals in America are
    totally un-Christlike and unchristian. They come across as ugly,
    mean-spirited and anger-filled. It is awful to see real believers
    caught up in anything so unlike Jesus.”
    I could say the same thing about your article.

  121. Wyndle Jul 10th 2012


    “And the VERY TINY FRACTION of people who are trying to game the system are the exception, not the rule.”

    Where have you been hiding? It is well doccumented that Millions are on the doyle and as the government makes it easier to steal everyday millions more join the ranks.
    Yes there are some who for reasons other than laziness are in dire straits but most could find a job if they really wanted to, most have the attitude it is their right to take our assistance instead.

  122. Ugandaprof Jul 10th 2012

    Do you Ruth and truthdenier really think I was bragging? You stated that conservatives were against the poor and for the rich. You are obviously are as ignorant about us as you are the scripture. You missed the whole point of what i wrote. Your tired old criticisms are not new just boring and wrong, not to mention hermenutically in error.

  123. There is no man that can fill the office and return the land to the morals of the 1950-1960s. There are men and women that can hold office and try to keep this nation from blowing apart like a cheap watch. We need to return to the Lord, nationally and globally. We do not need to become the goats of the new ecumenical movement, we need to be the sheep of the Lord.

  124. Wyndle, I’m amazed at your omniscience. Please tell me more about how all of these people think.

    Where have I been living? …with a wife for 18 years who has worked intimately with the very people about whom you know so much.

  125. NO DOUG,, I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN ZIONIST,, HOWEVER I DO LOVE THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF ROMANS,, christian zionism stands with political Israel which is as deep in apostasy as the harlot of america and who rides the political beast,,

    Yeshua will soon crush and make an end to all earthly political kingdoms…


  126. With the misguided beleifs from your heart being exposed through your finger tips i will include you within my pray list with the rest of the lost people i pray for……..Please remove me from your mailing list.

  127. Craig Doriot Jul 10th 2012

    Andrew, much of what you have written, I agree with, aside from the overarching premise as it relates to the Tea Party movement itself. The tea party is just a lesser problem and probably the only place a Conservative Christian can put their vote, unfortunately. Believing this is a solution is the only thing that makes it a problem.

    These are the same themes I have been troubled by: America’s unjust wars, patriotic Christianity, the solution is spiritual and not through government, America needing a true revival and not just a political revival.

    This is what I like about the Tea Party movement: it is obvious the conservative party (GOP) supports big war, big business, big spending, and fiscal irresponsibility under the guise of fiscal responsibility. In short, the GOP no longer does a decent job of representing Christians.

    If you believe the argument is about Tea Partiers (as a whole) not wanting health care for the poor, you are getting a jaded viewpoint that the left has pushed. Everything pushed under the guise of “health care for the poor” pushes an agenda forward of fiscal irresponsibility and enforcing anti-Chrstian political agendas, such as abortion. I also feel that the poor is the churches’ responsibility.

    What I dont like about the Tea Party is that it is already becoming compromised, and I agree that as Christians, our focus should be on the spiritual first. I think having a Mormon like Glen Beck and a liar like David Barton as leading “Christian” voices of this movement is scary.

    It’s not just the rallies, either, it’s the Christianized nationalism coming out in every form of media. The latest movie “Monumental” with David Barton is a great example of this. Now we have new bibles in the “Christian” bookstores that highlight our “Christian” founders, with the statue of liberty and George Washington on the cover. Merging deism & pantheism with the Bible.

  128. weemucks Jul 10th 2012

    wow what a mess

  129. weemucks Jul 10th 2012

    Paul say’s in 2 Timothy;

    “Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier”

  130. I agree Andrew with the basic premise regarding wrapping Christianity in the flag, and some of America’s sins….one of them is that politics will change things without us seeking God for revival. If people spent half the time and energy pursuing His kingdom that is spent in political endeavour perhaps the nation would change. I agree with others on this thread though, that less government is a priority of the Tea Party, more than anything, and that they are wanting to preserve the freedoms that the US Constitution declares. In every group you will find extremists.

    The church used to minister to the needs of the poor while today it has become the government’s job, paid for by the taxpayer. I’m not sure we have it right in the current system. .Welfare can be useful, but it can also ruin generations of people, and take away their self respect.

    In regard to war, what would have happened if no one had fought Hitler? What would happen to Israel if she didn’t defend herself against her attackers? I used to think no war could ever be right. I now think that there is such a thing as a just war, and we need, as a people, to find out what that is in any given situation.

    America does have a *cultural Christianity* probably more than most nations. Many are just that, *cultural Christians* and are not truly saved…..but again the remedy is revival…..it will correct the abuses and the imbalances more than anything else we can do. America has come to the state it is now in, because it has turned from God, to a large extent. No matter who wins this election, it will not fix the USA. Only Jesus can do that!

  131. truthseeker2 Jul 10th 2012

    It’s quite sad that humanistic governments seem to have more compassion and understanding for the poor, needy and oppressed than some ‘christians’. That’s saying quite a lot isn’t it.

  132. Re-electing the biggest crook is almost as bad as re-electing the biggest murderer…but dems and libs are all the same! Politics in America…is a illusion of choice! It doesnt matter now. We can go into the details of politics…but that is just a smoke screen. 911 was a inside job plain and simple. No, this is not a nutjob conspiracy theory. There are engineers who have formed groups and rallied for re-investigation. Once one can concieve 911 is a inside job, then you can see the horror and smoke screen of politics we are in now. I dont understand why no one has mentioned the Occupy movement….it’s like denying a HUGE reality and discounting a passionate movement that this world has ever seen.

  133. Andrew, I think you are over generalizing the weakest links of this movement and broadbrushing the whole movement with the errors of the minority. All you mention is happening among this group, but are not necessarily included in the package. The main plank is freedom, to give to. The poor as the Bible clearly states, not have the gov’t butcher the process by taking way too much and producing way too little good, ever heard of government waste? Socialism is threatening to strangle and kill America! That is the main point. Did you know that? This healthcare law could kill our country, while it mandates sin and crushes freedom. It is evil. We will have to come up with a better plan to robin hood, plunder these wealthy folks for our unbiblical plan to steal and redistribute forcefully and horribly inefficiently as Jesus and the apostles did, didn’t they? I agree that the great commission is our real task, this is minor league stuff for sure. I don’t see war mongering being emphasized in the tea party at all. First of all, ALL PEOPLE ON EARTH SHOULD HAVE THE CHANCE TO RESPOND TO THE GOSPEL, THIS MUST BE OUR MAIN FOCUS!!! We spend very little (.0001) taking the gospel to the unreached!

  134. Is it anything to do with Christians associating with the issues more than with the Kingdom of God? An earthbound outlook/perspective??

  135. weemucks Jul 10th 2012

    Maybe we should be busy making desciples rather than political opinions

  136. Hey! Party on Tea-Party-ers, if this is your kingdom. But I wonder if it’s not just another distraction; Satan/religion using good bait to pull you off target.

    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight…”

    Make your calling and election sure… whichever it is.

  137. Cody:
    “But trusting in the Tea Party movement (or its ideals) is no different than trusting in a particular government.” It’s not that anybody is trusting in the “Tea Party Movement”, it’s just a place for our opinions to be known.
    You know, I believe Satan would just love us Christians to lay down and shut up, so he can walk all over us. We need to resist the Devil so he can flee, not put out a welcome mat. I know plenty of Christians who don’t have any political involvement, and that is fine. But some do, and we have a place in the Body of Christ too.

  138. Andrew you seemed to really strike a chord this time. I’m not a teaparty guy, but independent Christian. To say that they are for the Rich and against the Poor is naive. Many like most conservative real Christian know that the fee Democratic (read FREE food, housing, cell phones, etc) does NOT bless the poor, it only makes them dependent on the Democratice Politicians. Criticizing Obama??? how bout the no. 1 baby killing president of all times who wants it a law for Adam to marry Steve, not Eve.
    I don’t think you really know what’s going on in America, we who live here do.

  139. How can I respond in the fewest words, possible? But, then, I doubt that many who read this article will get down here to Comment #113.

    Christianity is, of course, individual, not corporate. Jesus invented The Church, not the churches. And, God always uses a minimum of His people to accomplish his corporate ends on the Earth. Otherwise, men would take credit for the work. God doesn’t share His glory with anyone.

    In its 236-year history, the United States has been found twice by the Supreme Court to be a Christian nation. The Court also found Obamacare to be constitutional. Both findings are not without error. None of man’s works are without error, either individually or corporately. But, by those who read about such things it can be concluded that the founding of the U.S. looks very much like another of God’s Promised Lands, the first being given to the ancient Israelites.

    The history of the settlement in the 1600s and the founding of the U.S. in the 1700s shows a distinct connection with England’s initial Puritan movement and the American Great Awakening, that started in New Jersey in the 1720s. A good book on this is A History of Christianity, vol. 2, by Kenneth Scott Latourette, Prince Press (Hendrickson), 1953, 1975, ISBN 1-56563-329-6. The book supports the interpretation that the original American settlement, and the nation’s founding were both moves of God, using far less than the number of people swept up in them.

    The current Tea-Party is named after a very few men who took the initial step to found a new nation. They took a recreational break in their evening lodge meeting, to go out and throw the British tea into the harbor. Nowhere were they required to profess their faith in Jesus Christ. Some of them may have been what we would today label Evangelical, others not. But, they started the process that would found a Christian nation.

  140. Hey, here’s the answer! Internet Evangelist Says 200,000 Promise to Write in Jesus for President http://www.christianpost.com/news/internet-evangelist-says-200000-promise-to-write-in-jesus-for-president-77928/

  141. Kathleen in WA State Jul 10th 2012

    When the Tea Party began to coalesce, it’s intentions seemed quite noble. I was hopeful. Over time it’s accumulated strength & volume, though not necessarily in keeping with its original, noble themes.

    What I see today is just another interation of mob mentality. Some of what the Tea Party embraces I can abide, but not their methods or mouths. I cringe whenever anyone claims to speak for me – a conservative evangelical. It seems to me theirs is a kingdom-building initiatve (a counterfeit, as you point out) on a collision course with God’s own.

    I have issues with health care mandates, government definitions of marriage, pet tax initiatives, and lobbies. I can exercise my privileges & duties at the polls, or in succinctly (aka “respectful”) crafted letters to Presidents, Senators, Congress-people & news editors. I need not join a Soapbox Brigade to do any of that with, or for me.

    Besides, for every action their is an equal & opposite action – – Ala the Occupiers. No thanks.

    “Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong. Do everything in love.” 1 Corinthians 16:13-14

  142. Joe Moriarty Jul 10th 2012

    Hi Andrew: I won’t challenge your arguments, but I question how you can base some of those things on the slanted opinions of some extremists. They do not speak for, or maybe they presume to speak for others. I’m not a Tea Party member, but I know they are not all lumped into the fanatical label portrayed by the media, blogs, those commentators you quoted, etc.
    There are good people who have tried to responsibly protest the direction this country has gone. The politically correct Orwellian doublespeak that now is the standard in this country has rewritten its Godly foundation, declaring it never was based upon God…Though we have buildings and monuments not yet eradicated that declare this truth.
    The liberties once established in this country that attracted millions of immigrants have eroded and a new system (secularism) has become the religion of the land. It wasn’t too long ago when this country was fighting against the Communistic godless atheism that was enslaving the world.
    Should not good men stand up and and declare what is true?

  143. Andrew, your full of crap on this one on multipe fronts.

    For starters, the TEA party you see now is not the actual TEA party. There was no TEA party, it was only a movement of people sick and tired of their high taxes and the huge amount of government waste.

    Second, there is nothing wrong with nationalistic pride. One of the problems in this country is that being a citizen of the USA means NOTHING anymore. In Roman times the centurian said to Paul that he purchased citizenship with a great price. Roman citizens didn’t pay taxes, their conquered subjects did. One worldism is antichrist.

    Third, mixing christianity and politics is bad no matter what party your speaking of so why pick on the TEA party.

    Fourth, they don’t support the war, they support the troops which is distinct from supporting the war. Again, the Glenn Beck TEA party is not the ACTUAL TEA party.

    Fifth, there not against the poor. The best way to help the poor is to provide them with good jobs, not social services. I was laid off 3 years ago and never one missed a meal, mortgage payment, or was financially in trouble. Why? Because I relied on God as my source and he always came through. liberalism or socialism can NEVER help anyone but the people at the top. It keeps poor people poor.

    Sixth, If your talking socialized medicine I have to doubt you even hear God’s voice at all. The best thing that could happen to this country to HELP people is for all employers to DROP they health coverage and force peole to change their lifestyles. In addition this would drastically REDUCE health insurance. I have been without insurance for 3 years. The LAST thing I want is Obama care. Why don’t you get pumped with the mandatory vaccinations and then blindly beg God to be cured when you get sick!

    In summary, pretty much all around stupid Andrew…the worst thing you ever wrote!

  144. Wyndle Jul 10th 2012

    I too have a wife who has spent many years in the public service through the church and for some time managing a regeneration center for women with drug and alcohol issues.
    I also live in an area that is very poor and have observed many who game the system abusing food stamps, collecting welfare while claiming false handicaps, and having child after child just to get additional assistance.
    I have no issue helping those who cannot help themselves but I am tired of all those who have made a profession of living off the gullible.
    Perhaps you should become a fan of John Stossel and watch some of his many specials of all the people (not just the poor) who take advantage of the system everyday. He had a great special this week on all the people who stand on the corners with signs begging and showed how many live a better life doing this than most Americans do.
    Unfortunately begging has become more lucrative than working and it is hurting those who actually do need help but it is a sad new trend that has taken root in this country because some factions of our government think this is the best way to get a vote.

  145. Craig Doriot Jul 10th 2012

    @LC, defending George Bush a true, born-again Christian is precisely what I believe is part of the problem and the veil over the eyes of Christians in America. When you look into the pope’s eyes, do you “see God”?

  146. What we are looking at here is the corruption of Christianity with the leaven of this world. The gospel has been leavened, corrupted. Other elements are added to corrupt the whole. It’s whole character and nature is changed. Minds led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Jesus Christ. It’s become the kingdom of leaven.

    Leaven was a product of Egypt, the world. To leave Egypt was to leave the world and it’s corruptions for something pure and wholly devoted to God. A people for His name. We bear no other name, no other identity, no other affiliation.

    Politics is lies, deceit, compromise, majority rule. None of this is christian in nature, it’s the way of the world. Jesus says you can know them by their fruit. It’s that easy really. Just go to youtube and see how much George Bush and his associates lie. THEY LIE!!!! They may have their justifications but THEY LIE!!!! Barack Obama LIES!!!! But they are christians you say. Well guess what- ALL LIARS HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. Come out from amongst them and be separate, distinct in character and goals. Salt and light.

    The delusion is that you can fix it or affect it for good. You can change it for the better. NO! It will corrupt you and conform you to it. You are deceived.

    Go preach the gospel to the world, that’s how christians affect the world. That’s how the writers and actors in the NT affected their world. When we become transformed as disciples into light and salt our gospel will affect this world like no political apparatus ever could.

  147. Cody: “Jesus fed the thousands because they were hungry. This demonstrated to them that God CARED – not just about their spirituality (such a 19th, 20th century idea). He cared about their entire life. Every cell. Every hair.”
    Yes, that is true. He cared, He still cares. But Jesus’ primary purpose of the thousands gathered together was to teach the Word of God, not to give out free fish sandwiches. (Mt. 14:14). “And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he petitioned the government to give them free health care” – NO – HE HEALED THEIR SICK – he operated the manifestation of gifts of healing. THEN he fed them – he operated the manifestation of miracles and produced the fish and loaves, he didn’t demand the government provide food stamps..
    Mark 6:34, “And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they had no community organizers or free government healthcare or food stamps” – NO, “because they were as sheep not having a shepherd, and he began to teach them many things.” He taught them about God and then he fed them.
    You know, if one walks by the Spirit then people will get their needs met. The fisherman failed to put out all the nets like Jesus said, he put out one net and the net broke, their were so many fish. Jesus received revelation from God (the manifestations of word of knowledge and word of wisdom) – about where to get food and how. But the fisherman didn’t obey the word of God, only partially – and got a partial blessing. But we are so far off now from the teachings of Christ that we think giving stuff away is the answer to everything. We are commanded to help TRUE widows and orphans – not welfare mothers who have sinned by repeatedly getting pregnant from baby-daddies and expect the government to provide cradle-to-grave for her and her 6 children.
    Do you get what I am saying?
    I really don’t have any more time to post so I will leave the rest to you-all.

  148. Craig Doriot Jul 10th 2012

    Andrew, calling out leaders as “wicked” is certainly not inconsistent with the Bible. Obama does fit that description. At the same time, I do pray for Obama, that he repents and changes, that he stop pushing his anti-Christian agenda forward, etc. Recognizing his evil and praying for him are not mutually exclusive tasks.

    At the same time, I am aware that this is a spiritual battle and not one that is going to be won at the polls. I would almost rather we keep Obama than Romney, merely because Romney will give some Christians a false sense of security, while Obama is so openly confrontational with Christianity.

    God is giving us Americans the wicked leaders that this nation deserves. The American Christian response is to organize and use the tactics our conservative media (Fox News, talk radio, Glenn Beck) convinces us is the way to defeat them. It gives desperate Christians a false hope in a false solution that generally ignores God, and American Christianity is all over this losing tactic, rather than getting on their knees in prayer. For this reason, I no longer fret over seeing Obama in power; give this country over to its wickedness, so that it can see what it has become and so that Christians can start turning to God instead of politics for a solution.

  149. As a group of people the ‘Tea Party’ is neither Christian nor unChristian.
    Similarly a country can be neither Christian nor unChristian, nor a book, a coffee bar, a movie.
    However the spirit of the people who have mostly set the Tea Party, such as it is, in motion are greatly to be admired for trying to bring common sense to bear on a situation which has spiralled way out of control, under the influence of people promoting collectivist and totalitarian, coercive ideologies.
    The current crop of collectivists who are beginning to cement their positions of power and control in the world.
    And, sure, the kingdoms of this world are not the kingdom of God, but a spirit and a love of truth is a spirit and love of truth.
    Insofar as they are standing for the truth, for individual liberty and responsibility, the people in the Tea Party are greatly to be admired.
    The collectivist ideology which is now ramping up to the likely introduction of the antichrist and his controlling social structures is being made possible by situation which the people of the Tea Party are trying to stop.
    Marxism, communism, fascism and nazism are all collectivist ideologies.
    Where people stand for individual freedom and individual responsibility they will have my respect because they are tending towards a love and a desire for truth.
    And such people can be open to hearing the Truth.

  150. Andrew – I agree almost 100% with what you said in your article. (The only part I disagree with I will go into in a moment.)

    Your article was very well written and concise in your description of the problem with mixing politics with being a follower of Jesus. This is truly a very real problem.

    I haven’t yet read the comments, as I wanted to make a statement first, so I’m not sure if this has been mentioned by anyone else yet.

    The one thing I disagree with partly is the healthcare issue. However, I agree with the gist of what you’re saying concerning healthcare. We must care for the poor and needy and make sure they are taken care of – especially the elderly and children.

    However, the problem goes much deeper than surface level of providing healthcare for the poor. These things I speak being a former healthcare worker who has experienced the vast problem in the healthcare industry first hand.

    Much of so called “healthcare” is really just glorified use of drugs. This is an absolute truth and not just me getting on a soap box and stating my opinion on an issue.

    I used to type dictation for doctors (for over 11 years), and the number of people on 10 or more medications was staggering. Many of these drugs were given to counter the side effects of the previous drugs.

    Now I’m not against taking drugs when absolutely needed, but the healthcare industry has given themselves over to the greedy pharmaceutical industry.

    There is a place for drugs, but not to the extent they are being pushed. Many doctors are just glorified drug dealers and know very little about staying healthy.

    Also, while I believe in caring for the poor and needy, I don’t agree with giving handouts to those who believe they “deserve” to go to the doctor for every scrape and cough.

    So, in summary, my point is this: The healthcare issue is much deeper than offering healthcare to all. Although I believe I see your point about caring for the needy, it’s not so cut and dried. There is much corruption in the healthcare industry itself, and there is much wisdom needed to fix it.

    And also, do we all pay for the woman who insists on going to the doctor for every tiny issue just because she is covered. The average doctor’s favorite solution is a drug first. (For example, antibiotics are given freely, even though most doctors know that it won’t do any good unless the infection is bacterial.)

    I just wanted to shine a bit of light on the healthcare issue, although I believe I agree with the entire basis of your article.

  151. Well said Davo,, may YHWH multiply his grace, mercy and love unto you…

  152. Marc Wildman Jul 10th 2012


    I read your piece and I could not agree more with most if not all of your assertions.

    The ‘Tea Party’ over here is basically made up of the Revelation Chapter Three, soft gospel Christians, and the TV Evangelical movement in this country has been the main source of the problem all along.

    This (TP) movement is defined by what we call the new gospel, which would be the one similar to what Joel Osteen has been preaching all along. It seeks personal peace and affluence, it’s self-seeking, self serving, and is ‘spearheaded’ by this idea that Jesus came to offer us freedom from suffering and that you can have yur ‘stuff’ now, and your heaven here one earth!

    Romney, and the entire ‘Tea Party’ lot, is in no way concerned about pure and undefiled religion which James 1:27 describes in this way; “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.” How can we justify voting in a Mormon if we are suppose to keep ourselves unstained from the world?? I already did the study on that scripture and it may pay for everyone to do the same?

    Not to mention, Jesus tells us over and over to minister to the poor, and the disenfranchised but this never happens. The Republicans in America do support war; I personally support the soldiers, not the ‘armchair’ warriors who plan wars for the sake of profit and oil. Let’s get real–the Church in America is in serious trouble, her gospels are many, and I wonder if God is not about to bring more judgment to the steps of her altars.

    There is no easy solution because there are more denominations in disagreement in this country, more heresy being taught, which will not allow the church to unify in order to take the reigns. It was the church that was supposed to define the nations, but I am afraid it’s the other way around. Many Christians are saying regardless if Romney is a Mormon, we should vote for him in order that we are able to freely keep preaching the gospel. But, that would depend one what gospel, because more of the same may not be such a good idea? One Party wants to implement socialization and the Tea Party is exactly what it sounds like—aristocrats sipping tea at everyone else’s expense.

    I personally think their may be two camps of Christians at the polls in 2012 and one who being ‘spirit’ lead, may or may not show up.

    All I know is when Israel disobeyed God she was often placed under the hands of her enemies, and if this wasn’t to good for the natural branches, then it certainly isn’t for those grafted in?

    Romans 11:21; “For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.”

    Marc Wildman

  153. Wyndle, I do not disagree that there are humans who will attempt to exploit other humans. In fact, the more powerful corporate institutions have turned it into an art form.

    But I completely disagree with any notion that our response to should involve weakening the already weak just to make the lazy pay.

    God has demonstrated grace to me when I did not deserve it.

    It is certainly the case that our human sense of justice recoils at the idea of someone begging for money on a corner while living the high life. But then again, we are fortunate that God has not operated using our sense of justice – because certainly the word ‘grace’ would never have entered our vocabulary.

    I have seen John Stossel for years. He has a market for whom he produces a product. And I have seen him cashing in on “outrage pieces” for many years. Do you remember the “Gimme A Break” segments broadcast prime time?

    If one were to watch only him, I’m sure they’d come bo believe the view the most (as you wrote) of the people on government assistance are in that situation because of their exploitative character flaws. But Stossel is incomplete in his analysis (which is a massive understatement). And he’s hocking a product. Don’t forget that. There is no one requiring him to be fair in his analysis. The people watching him ALREADY believe these things. And it is through people like Stossel that they receive confirmation of their bias. It’s a comfy warm feeling to be sure.

    Begging is not – in most cases – more lucrative than working. But in those cases where it is, that just tells you something about the quality of employment opportunities in America, doesn’t it? The glut of low-pay service jobs boomed starting in the 80’s. These are the kinds of jobs where you can barely do rent and food (much less a car, a phone, or – heaven help us – a television). We have spent over 30 years instituting the Hayek-Friedman-Rand philosophies that dominate neo-conservativism (and particularly libertarianism) and now it brings us to a point where begging is more profitable than working (in some cases). Very shocking. I’m pleased you brought that to my attention.

    Regarding “some factions” who seek votes by encouraging non-work through government assistance (as you state at the end)… I’m wondering how you handle the fact that when jobs are abundantly available and people are qualified for them, they overwhelmingly choose to work..even IF they could get by on government assistance. But as wages have stagnated in the last 30 years (as a result of previously mentioned economic policies), more people have naturally turned to government programs. And YES – I AGREE – patterns of poverty can reproduce themselves. But I think it us radically presumptuous of you to look at this as – primarily – an issue of moral character. Given certain policies, we can turn nearly any citizen into an animal. I do not think the government programs encourage dependence by dint of their existence. I think we encourage dependence when we eviscerate the ability of millions of people to make a living and take care of a family. We recently did that by trusting the banking and investment industry to regulate itself. But before that we trusted that the mass exit of industrial jobs to be replaced by low-wage non-union service industry jobs. But that’d be ok, right? Because the exodus of higher paying manufacturing jobs would mean businesses could charge less for their products (because they’re paying so little for their labor now). Funny, the prices dropped a bit. But then started climbing again. We went on a privatization spree with health care starting in the 1980’s and, shock of all shocks, it proved to NOT be more efficient. The prices DIDN’T go down.

    Middle class incomes could no longer sustain a basic middle class lifestyle in the face of these mutations. So more spouses went to work. When that could no longer maintain middle class lifestyles, we started working overtime. When that ran its course, we demanded credit – and the banks begged the government to lighten normal restrictions on credit. Soon we were awash in credit. Then mortgages and refinanced mortgages. But it has been an illusion this entire time – brought on by the absurd belief that the market would guide us into valhalla.

    More people are on the dole right now not because people see a government system and choose to exploit it. They’re on the dole because there are few realistic options for them. And there are few realistic options because we sold ourselves on the idea that an unfettered economy is an efficient economy. But it is a myth. Or rather, it is a partial truth with serious limits, which we have chosen to ignore.

    Government programs to help the poor do not create the poor. But they can reproduce them in later generations if there are few opportunities to leave poverty.

    We don’t teach the lazy man to be a worker by making him starve. That is positively Darwinian. We teach him to work by creating REALISTIC options for him to better himself. Some will still turn to indolence. But I firmly believe most will seek a means of bettering their life in a way that doesn’t rob them of their dignity. This is what I have seen of ACTUAL people. Not the audience-designed anecdotes of John Stossel.

  154. I think the Tea Party is actually very “Christian” but it’s just not at all like Jesus.

    “Christianity” as a religion is linked to the West and has an inherent political bent to it – always has. It’s just not the way of Jesus!

    Huge difference. So while I agree 100% with your points (I think they are un-arguable actually), I would simply say it differently. The Tea Part reflects American Christianity perfectly. Just not the way of Christ.

  155. LC,

    You keep thinking I’m demanding that the government do all of the stuff Jesus did. I’m not sure how many different ways I can say this is wrong.

    I’m saying WE do what He did. WE, in this case, is not America’s government. It is those of us who follow Christ. We’re actually in agreement on this.

  156. Wow Carl. Well said.

  157. ChildOfGod stated:
    “We do not feel victimized by the government for universal health care”

    In the kindest way I can say this, I say:

    I think you may not feel victimized by your gov’t because you are like a frog in the water that is being warmed to the boiling point, and you are adjusting to the temperature as time goes by.

    For I am Canadian, but living in the US now for 20+ yrs. In 2008 my Canadian mother, living in Canada, was put into an Old Age Home against her will and against the will of living survivor(s). Her home had a lock put on the door by the Public Trustee … the gov’t of Canada … and they sold her possessions to pay for her stay in their wonderful end-of-life hotel, and no living immediate member of the family was allowed to have any of the possessions that my mother owned, as a token of memory of the mother we had.

    My mother had no will and no power of attorney, so the gov’t became my mothers new Care Giver when the Provincial Psychiatrist deemed my mother incompetent and unable to live any longer on her own.

    In 2010 my Canadian mother, living under the care of the wonderful Canadian Health Care system, got a cold, lost her appetite, and started loosing weight. A skinny women who didn’t eat became skinnier and lost her appetite further. She became dehydrated and I was told she would be dead soon, so “come on up and visit her” before she dies.

    “Please give her humane hydration” was my plea to the nurses, the homes supervisors and doctors, and finally to the Public Trustee. Nobody wanted to hear from me. “Your mother is old and no medical intervention is given to those at the end of their lives” . I found out that when one is near the end of life, either from age or from terminal disease, Canada and other socialist health care countries will not intervene with medical intervention which WASTES the govt’s money. And FOOD AND HYDRATION are considered medical intervention!

    After flying up to Canada to talk to lawyers, the Public Trustee, and the doctors at the Home, about getting HUMANE HYDRATION and humane care for a lady who still knew me and my kids, a lady who could talk and care for her self and clean herself, and lady who could feed herself and walk without the aid of walking apparatuses, but a lady who had gotten sick and now wasn’t eating … I was told by the humane health care system of Canada, that if I didn’t “stop bullying them with threats of lawyers and media that they would toss my mother out of their housing facility”.

    Socialism, socialist health care and government handouts are NOT “more like Christ” in their supposed wonderful Christ-like, caring, giving attitudes. They ARE indeed, anti-christ … out to dominate and control, enslave, dictate, and kill at their whim. They choose who lives and who dies. And they do indeed “steal” from one and give to others, in the form of excessive taxation … well, they give a little bit, after skimming off the top to support their own lavish lifestyles and securing their own job positions and life-long pensions.

    No where in the bible does it say we need gov’t to make sure the field is level, the poor are cared for and the sick get healthcare. God never wanted His people to have Kings in the first place!

    WELL SAID DAVO, for what some may think an off-topic post … FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. It is the Church’s responsibility to pray for the sick, give to the poor, and tend to the needs of people. We do not need … and must hold back (2 Thess 2:6) … any gov’t trying to play god in our lives, who wants to care for us from cradle to grave. This is enslavement, a false sense of security, and a looking to “man” for help.

    By the way … after the threat of my mother being thrown out of the Home, I returned to the US, fell on my knees and in prayer said, “God she has no one to help her. Let Your righteousness prevail in this situation. There is no righteousness in the way she is being treated. Have mercy and heal her”. She was indeed, immediately healed when I prayed this … to the astonishment of every nurse and supervisor in that Care Home. She immediately started eating like she’d never had any trouble to begin with. They then got some gospel preached to them, as I told “How God heals and cares for His own”.

    Davo…I’d love to post your “faith without works” statement on my blog. Do I have permission?


    Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD – Jeremiah 17:5

  158. Someone mentioned above:

    “i find it apalling in this day and age that millions of americans can,t afford healthcare. the basic right of everyone is healthcare, a nationalised healthcare and it is not just the right of the rich. america is not the land of the free when you can,t afford to be ill.”

    I don’t believe any of us should be trusting the government to take care of our healthcare needs or any other needs. It is not our “right” to have anything, is it?

    Has Jesus’ attitude ever been that we have a “right” to anything. NO! This is part of the problem.

    “Can’t afford to be ill?” What? No one wants to ever find themselves in the place of great illness, but it inevitably comes to many of us.

    So, do we trust our government or doctors or insurance companies? Do we get angry ourselves because we have the “right” to be covered?

    Or do we carefully, prayerfully plan and then trust God with the rest?

  159. zeal4thyhouse Jul 11th 2012

    If one has to judge by these comments of American “”christians”” then no wonder Christianity in the West is in such a mess.

    It has influenced the whole world.

    May the Lord has His will.

    May He accomplishes His, yes only His purpose through-out the whole earth.

  160. AMEN !! Thank you, Andrew, for this necessary challenge. Politics is a human activity, and ALL human behavior and thought must be brought under the sovereignty of our King.

    Add to the list of the Tea Party’s core principles:

    an embrace of Ayn Rand’s anti-Christian philosophy


    In Jesus, Steve

  161. Someone above mentioned that President Bush was a Christian.

    I used to believe this, but now I believe wholeheartedly that he was not and is not a Christian. “You shall know them by their fruits.”

    Just because he prayed and acted like a Christian when it was convenient does not make him a Christian. He was pandering to the “Christian right” – like most Republicans do. And most so-called Christians are fooled by this behavior.

    I once was fooled myself, and I was very angry at being deceived once my eyes were opened …

  162. God has already Promised to Heal our LAND/


  163. TheDude Jul 11th 2012

    Andrew, I think you hit a nerve with some folks that needed hitting. You and I don’t always agree, but I’ve never doubted your passion for pointing out deception where it needs pointing out.

    Nowhere in the New Testament do we see followers of Jesus currying favor with the political leaders of the day, nor do we see them getting involved with the political establishment. Patriotism and Christianity do not go hand in hand so some folks think. God tells us to pray for our leaders, nothing more.

    Many of the critics of this post are dominionist thinking “kingdom now” folks who somehow have the false belief that we are going to usher in the kingdom of God here on earth. This is nothing more than just one more deception of the enemy seeking to deter people from truly following our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Thank you Andrew for a well needed post on this subject.

  164. Bernie Wade Jul 11th 2012

    One of my leaders sent this to me before I read my copy. I responded thus:

    Write Andrew and tell him

    1. He has no idea what he is talking about. These are not the view of
    conservative and I could list a dozen reasons why. Being anti-abortion is
    not proof of being conservative. Sorry.
    2. I generally agree with him but he has missed this by a country mile.
    This is a the biggest piece of tripe Andrew has ever written. Of course all
    politics can be labels UNCHRISTIAN but what Andrew has offered is the head
    of the Tea Party on a charger as a offering to the socialist agenda of the
    3. He has sucked the seeds of socialism so long he has bought in. The idea
    that “millions of American’s are denied basic health care is a simply a lie”
    only people with an agenda spout. No one in America is denied basic health
    4. Sadly he thinks socialized medicine is some inalienable right. This is
    not in the Bible or the US Constitution.
    5. This piece is simply so poorly written it is devoid of fact. You could
    take time to rebuttal this mess point the point, but why try. A bulldog can
    beat a skunk but it is not worth it.

    That is the view from my porch.

    You can quote me.

    Bernie L. Wade, Thd
    International Circle of Faith

    Since I suspect you think you are doing good (like Saul of Tarsus
    taking letters to persecute the church). Let me go further.

    What are the “usual ‘conservative’ views?
    There are many things that American Christians support that surely deserve more
    attention that the Tea Party. Why didn’t you write about the Coffee Party? Or the
    plethora of sins that are offered openly and public by various denominations
    who are claim to be Christians. The Tea Party does not claim to be Christian.

    Since the majority of Americans (according to the Barna Group 87%) claim to
    be Evangelical Christians it stands to reason that the Tea Party would have
    many of these. Yet, those who look closely at the statistics know that the reality
    is that less than 10% of Americans are Biblical Christians.

    While I don’t think that the Tea Party is an Awakening, it certainly can’t
    hurt us to have people concerned about the status quo. As long people are
    at ease they will remain in the Laodecian status that plagues the American
    church. WAKE UP! is a good thing. If they don’t already know, they will soon find out the Tea Party
    can’t save them either.

    What is strange to me is why you didn’t write a rant about the tens of
    millions of Americans have now misplaced their faith into believing that
    some government heath care scam that already is openly promoting
    homosexuality, promiscuity and more can save them! While I understand we have much to disagree
    with the Roman Catholic Church about their stance that OBAMACARE is an assault on Christianity and
    people of faith is ‘spot on’!

    Perhaps you have missed Michelle Obama and the host of other operatives with their list of things
    that are now FREE. From contraception on. Only a fool would believe that this is really FREE! But lets
    attack the Tea Party. Really sad.

    Americans are going to line up for this like misguided Jews going for a “bath” in Hitler’s death machines. Wake up
    Andrew. America is on the wrong course. Yes! We have forgotten God! However the Tea Party is NOT the problem.
    The Tea Party may even be a symptom of a larger problem but not the problem.

    Of course it is counterfeit. Anything we put our trust in that other than
    God is not going to work. So your offer is to embrace the counterfeit of
    socialism instead of the Tea Party? Strange advice at best. American’s are
    not putting their trust in the Tea Party they are saying they have HAD
    ENOUGH of a political system that has lost it’s way, doesn’t resemble the
    democratic process guaranteed us in the constitution and they want change.
    Your offer of embracing the socialist agenda of socialize medicine witch for
    the record nearly 80% of American’s oppose is ridiculous. It is riddled
    with all of the problems that true conservatives hate.

    I think you should stick to what you do best and American Politics is not
    one of them. But in case you really want to help start with this:

    “Let me get this straight ……
    We’re going to be “gifted” with a health care
    plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don’t,
    which purportedly covers at least ten million more people,
    without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents,
    written by a committee whose chairman
    says he doesn’t understand it, passed by a Congress that didn’t read it but
    exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President who smokes,
    with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn’t pay his taxes,
    for which we’ll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect,
    by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare,
    all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese,
    and financed by a country that’s broke!!!!!”

    This is your answer? Please. I like most Americans will pass. Label us anything you want.

    Andrew, all countries have nationalism. Is it good in other countries but bad in America? Why are you
    promoting Obamacare when those for it are certainly beating the drum of nationalism? Is nationalism ok
    for those things you agree with?

    When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the
    people mourn.

    I know many people who support the Tea Party, Democratic
    Party and Republican Party – NONE of them think these are Christian
    endeavors. You also miss the point that a large group of Christians (some
    say as high as 15%) don’t vote at all. This may be a much larger problem
    that we know. If the Tea Party gets some of these involved in the process it can only help.

    Again, since 87% of Americans are supposedly Christians then it is by
    default these Christians that are the largest supporters of WAR. Your
    article plays fast and loose with the facts. It reminds me of this fact,
    “Everyone who ate carrots who was born before 1850 died.” That is a fact. Much more a
    fact than those you offered in your letter.

    So, the conclusion is don’t eat carrots, they will kill you!!?

    The Tea Party is not about Rich against poor but your touting of Marxism is
    VERY disturbing. The only thing missing in your letter was
    “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.” No that is not
    from the Bible!

    Your whole article would make a great prop piece for Obama Care and the
    other failed social experiments of the last 80 years. Many true
    conservative remain opposed to the whole of socialism that we was forced
    upon us after the Great Depression. This wave is just more of the same.
    The result is the America that we once knew is no more and failed
    socialistic policies won’t change that for the better.

    Sir, here is your quote,

    “Do you know that millions and millions of Americans are being
    denied basic Health coverage that is totally taken for granted in
    other countries? And that it is the CHRISTIANS who want to deny
    it to them? And do you know that there are multitudes of Americans
    who wind up bankrupt or losing their home simply because they
    can’t pay their medical bills? Does that sound like a “Christian”
    ideal to you? Does it sound like something that believers should
    be fighting for? -Fighting on the side of Big Business against the
    “little people” who can’t afford to pay? What kind of “Christianity” is

    A. This is a lie. Americans are not denied basic health care under our
    current system and if you are such an humanitarian what would you do about
    it in the nearly four years before OBAMACARE becomes the law? In many
    countries there is not even the ability to deliver basic health care. You
    need to get out more. Come with me on a trip to Africa, Central America or
    B. I do not know a single Christian that supports your lies. You should REPENT.
    C. Socialized medicine will not help people who are in financial crisis. Evidently, you have never seen someone who went through serious medical crisis. Even when their medical bills are paid (and for the majority of Americans they are) there are a plethora of things that affect them.
    D. Socialized medicine is bigger than any business in America (oh, bigger than any business in the world) and you support it. Sorry to disturb you
    with the facts. What kind of Christianity do we have when you use lies to support your rhetoric??

    Finally in your point 5 you get to a seed of truth:

    Politics will not solve America’s problems. Yet, you have offered Marxism,
    Socialism and support of the leftists policies that American’s oppose as the
    answer. Now we all know why the Tea Party exists they have relied on
    Religious leaders (like you) and you have grossly failed them. Sorry mate,
    just the facts.

    I am sure that you will label me and any one else who disagrees with you,
    “totally un-Christlike and unchristian, ugly, mean-spirited and

    Get a MIRROR mate. You need one. Your email meets all of that criteria and more.

    The original American Tea Party was held to throw off the hold of a
    political system that denied people certain inalienable rights that would
    later be the cornerstone of American exceptionalism. Something that all the
    rest of the world envies. Now you propose for us to trade that for
    Socialism? We would do better with the Monarchy we got rid of 200 years ago
    than to enslave ourselves to a socialistic dictator.

    I would like to challenge every Christian reading this to forward it to your
    conservative friends. Tell them to continue to follow Jesus and ignore
    people who offer political answers especially those based in Marxism.

    That is the view from my porch….

  165. Spirit Walker Jul 11th 2012

    Ahhh ! Exposure of the true heart and soul is a sweet smell of burning flesh to come.

    Socialism, Fascism, Marxism teaches people to have FAITH/DEPEND upon and expect their needs to be met by the Government or RELIGION.

    This is IDOLATRY. When people suffer for their sins and NO people come between them and the Holy Spirit, THEN the people TURN TO THE TRUE GOD FOR SALVATION AND DELIVERANCE.

    Doesn’t anyone read the OT anymore???

    Whatever a person DEPENDS ON FOR THEIR SOURCE OF LIFE IS THEIR god/idol.

    Governments are set up by God to either BLESS a righteous people or JUDGE a people who are swimming in IDOLATRY.

    So Andrew, and others here, are SUPPORTING AND DEFENDING health care and the medical society who take an oath to an Egyptian/Babylonian god.

    The “modern” medicine, “western” medicine that most people know today is WITCHCRAFT….ORIGINATED in Babylon and Egypt and practiced by SORCERERS! Drugs are Drugs….whether you have a prescription or not.

    Do you not believe the scriptures that the ENTIRE WORLD SYSTEM lies in darkness……it is the Kingdom of Darkness?

    Medicine does NOT heal….only God heals. Medicine can only burn out, cut out, kill, or DRUG the symptoms.

    Blind Fools who name the name of Jesus Christ will be baptized in His Fire until all of the darkness has been turned to ashes……THEN beauty will come from your ashes.

  166. IsChristSoonToReturn Yes

  167. Sally:

    “Has Jesus’ attitude ever been that we have a “right” to anything. NO! This is part of the problem.”

    Well put, and exactly true. You realize also that Jesus’ attitude contradicts the foundational assertion of the declaration of independence: that all men have a “right” to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness ?

    I think you’re spot on that our civic theology of “rights” is the problem. Rights are entitlements: and it’s a seriously unChristian understanding of scripture that we are ENTITLED to, and God OWES us, life, liberty and happiness.

    In Jesus, Steve

  168. Obama? Or Romney?
    Muslim & Socialist? Or Mormon?
    If I had my druthers . . I’d druther have somone else to vote for.
    There is not.
    That being said . . I have to agree with Andrew . . on some points.
    I do not like the Tea Party anymore because it has been ‘hi-jacked’ by the elite conservatives. The movement started out as a grass-roots movement to take back this country from Obama and his radically liberal cronies who want to socialize America. They want Big Brother telling you everything you can and cannot do.
    I am against that.
    I do not see Romney as being any better because he is and always has been for the rich . . and make no mistake he sold out America by outsourcing our jobs . . all for the almighty dollar.
    America is in dire need of a spiritual revival.
    Unfortunately . . there is no one in the political arena now, nor up and coming, that is willing to lead the way
    Cannot say anything bad about muslims, or a slew of other peoples . . but they can all trash Christians.
    If we are in the end times, and I believe we are, trust me when I tell you . . it shant be long before we as Christians have far more to worry about than what the Tea Party is doing to slander us.
    I have not and will not drink Obama’s kool-aid.
    Won’t drink Romney’s either.
    Truth be told . . I will vote conservative because I am . . and I certainly do not want four more years of Obama the sly muslim.
    I used to listen to the Tea Party . . but, like I said . . they have allowed themselves to be hi-jacked by those that wave the flag . . yet . . are willing to lead us further down the highway to hell.
    That is why there be no others except Romney and Obama to vote for.
    Yes . . you can write in another, but every vote Romney don’t get . . allows Obama another chance at four more years . . and I believe this country will not be able to turn back the socialization he desires to bring upon us if that happens.

  169. All those on here accusing Andrew of having no clue and talking about Obama as if he’s the most evil president ever. I believe you all are being influenced by Fox News way too much.

    Andrew, I do agree that the ending of your message saying “the challenge is laid down” was not Christ like. Do you indeed enjoy stirring things up?

    I believe we all must be aware that we ALL HAVE PRIDE and a strong desire to PROVE OUR OWN POINT. Let us remember to ask ourselves continually – “Is this what Jesus would do, say, think?”

    It’s not always a simple answer …

  170. What a message to the church. or to the people it’s the message that first lets us god as our backer. hmm sounds like religion more then the spirit. thru religion it’s ok to lie to the ones you are fighting it’s ok to us god’s word to make things happen after all god is on our side. and people wonder why there is so few native ‘s from america as believers it’s the secound coming of an old lie. the truth is if God before us who can be against us. I as a native want creator of all on myside, and pray as such. creator is no ruber stamp for anyones ideas Bless and keep his word true.
    Whispering Raven Thundering Mountain.

  171. ChildofGod Jul 11th 2012

    Is Christ soon to return,

    It is a sad story about your mom. Each province regulates their own administering of Health Care. I can assure you that her treatment is not universal across the country!! NEVER in my province would you hear, “Your mother is old and no medical intervention is given to those at the end of their lives.”

    In this province, one does not have to give up their possessions to go into a nursing home, a daily rate is calculated based on their income/pensions.

    My mother was in a nursing home after a severe stroke in 2006, for total care and it was a beautiful place. She was well cared for. Nursing homes, though privately owned, are government regulated and licensed. Nursing homes and hospitals are to separate things. Nursing homes are NOT operated by the Health Care System.

    The nursing home called the ambulance, then called us when Mom had to go to the hospital. She received full medical care pre and post-surgery. In the end, she went to be with the Lord, but had the best of care right up until the end, in the hospital.

    Praise God your mother was healed.

  172. A lot of email and forum input shows that most of them are opposed to and belligerent towards Romney as towards Obama. Many will not vote for either and will do a “write in.”

    Many of the super patriots in America are Dominionists. That is their agenda … Dominionism. Of course most of these super patriots are Tea Party activists. A lot of candidates are also in Dominionist religious groups, and Mormonism is Dominionist.

    In the 70’s and 80’s I was a social and political activists, but I now see no political or social solution, and worse yet, I see no hope for America.

    If one is premillennial and post-trib-rap (or some variation thereof) one realizes that we are approaching the time of the 7 weeks of Daniel. If so, we need to be acting like it and prepare for the era we are in now rather than the era we were so used to. See THE NORMALCY BIAS

    Are we preparing for a return to a better era in American history, or are we preparing for the soon coming of the temporary Antichrist and then the eternal Christ? Guess which you are going to get, no matter what you want or what should be.

    It seems like there is a lot of shouting in the letters above. Perspective! We must get our eyes back on Bible prophecy and our coming King and Bridegroom. That is IF IF we identify as citizens of the Kingdom of God.

  173. In His Glory Jul 11th 2012

    Although conservative I have always been wary of the Tea Party stuff for the reasons you submitted.

    However ~ the post seemed a little accusatory that Conservative Christians don’t care about the poor in that they receive healthcare. I’m sure some don’t but the description & rebuke was a broad stroke.

    If you are led by the Holy Spirit w/God’s heart then of course you will eventually care as you mature in spiritual matters. You regularly give to the poor & help out when possible. That doesn’t mean though that you are eager to join the Politically Correct ranks & be forced into a socialized health care system. (That the Government personal won’t even have to use.)

    Personally, if they could set up a choice for those who want to keep their current independent coverage (without it going through the roof & becoming totally unaffordable.) & offering another choice I don’t think there would be much squawk about it.

    But no worries ~ the Anti-Christ system will seem most attractive to the masses because part of the plan is to redistribute wealth. Hey, that seems pretty Biblical Right? Forcibly take from the wealthier & give to the poor Robin Hood style. Who cares about a change in the hearts of men when it can be stolen instead? It’s quicker & requires a lot less effort w/the same monetary result.

    Eventually we will see a socialist/communist style New World Order. I guess I’ll have to go w/the program for a while so I’m obedient to God & obey the laws of the land but that doesn’t mean I have to like it.

    “And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honor of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries… And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people. He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers’ fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time. (Daniel 11:21-24, KJV)”

  174. truthseeker2 Jul 11th 2012

    Christ is soon to return: I truly empathise with what happened to your mother.. I’m not sure though that this was because she was receiving care under a socialist system, I think it is because the unsaved world has money as its god. Sadly nursing homes are just another way to make money. If your mother had been in America and had no health care cover, no money to pay for her care, wouldnt she have been treated in much the same way as you say she was in Canada…or worse? How would an elderly person, on the edge of death, needing hydration, extra intervention etc, but has no money to pay for on-going care, be treated in an American nursing home? Do you think they would go out of their way to save her. From what i’ve heard that kind of stuff goes on all the time in america too…..insurance companies wanting to pay out as little as they possibly can etc. That is a matter of sin.

  175. Andrew,

    I agree with you on most things, but please consider that much of this “health care” really isn’t. It’s often pharmakeia. Big Pharma is mostly love-of-money driven, and is raping America in many ways. Treatments are almost always the most expensive and least natural. And antidepressant, psych drugs may even help to sear people’s consciences so they can sin without feeling guilt. Many can’t even cry.

    If people want to take these, that’s up to them, but we shouldn’t be forced to help them destroy themselves eternally — while we help finance Big Pharma — which is mostly sickening, literally.

    And regarding the Tea Party, it started out being anti-war, pro-Ron Paul, but then Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and the neocons largely hijacked it to where it is in many ways reverse-Christian. This is how I stated it in a title to one of my posts to a video discussing Sarah Palin:

    “Sarah Palin demonstrates why most evangelicals dissed Ron Paul, who wanted to bring the troops home. ‘Christians’ have two sets of books: one for US and one for THEM (“who don’t deserve rights”). THEY’re not our ‘neighbor’ whom Jesus commanded US to love as much as ourselves. Maybe that’s why most evangelicals refuse to investigate 9/11. If THEY didn’t take down the towers…???”


    Jeff Fenske
    Anchorage, Alaska

  176. You can’t add millions of people to an already broken system! Where reform needs to happen is at the bandaide level. No one is denied service but where the problem lies are the $40 bandaides at the emergency room. Putting a 1 trillion dollar bandaide on a blood sucking system will do nothing! Bring the costs of healthcare down and make it affordable and then if you really want to help the poor, which I have no problem with, give every US citizen a million dollars that can only be used for medical care, that is only a $300 million dollar fix compared to a trillion dollar bandaide that is only going to create more problems. I think it is horrific that they plan on taking 500Billion out of Medicare to do it, to me that is more “unChristian”! To me to take care from the elderly like they want to do is the next holocost! Let’s fix the vigorish they charge now for medical supplies and services then we can talk about providing for the poor! Take down the prices of medical care then we would have a lot more money to give an hand up to the poor, not a hand out!

  177. tenderwarrior Jul 11th 2012

    Andrew I so often I agree with you and agree with a lot in this article. But your anti- American bias and your left leaning socialist views are as unChristlike as the ones on the far right. You seem to think it is government that is our supplier instead of God the father! The article the gentleman posted on the Facebook thread states the view of most U.S. Christians regarding if government.

  178. Whoops sorry miss calculated, but still it may cost, even if we only gave 100,000 per person, and they were put into interest bearing accounts, we would come out ahead!

  179. Tiffany Jul 11th 2012

    AMEN to this article! Thank you to the author who wrote this, finally a true believer speaks the truth!! I agree with this article 1,000%

  180. Tiffany Jul 11th 2012

    Thank you Andrew you are 100% correct in everything you shared in this writing. Thank you for your courage to speak the truth. And Sally, I agree with you completely.

  181. Your commentary is spot on until you get to the health care part. You apparently do not understand US Constitutional law. Remember that part in the NT about obeying the law? Well in the US that is the constitution. And regardless what the Supreme Court says, federal government financed/run/regulated health care is not legal.

    There is nothing just or loving about stealing money at the point of a gun (illegal taxation to pay for illegal government health care). Notice the good Samaritan, he paid for the man’s costs out of his own pocket. He did not steal to get the money and he did not submit a claim to the government for it.

    You know those people who you say are going bankrupt and loosing their homes over medical costs? Most of them have insurance!

    None of this is to say we shouldn’t take care of the poor who need health care, but doing it by force of arms is not Christian.

  182. Lets get a few things straight.

    The US does have a problem with how we treat the poor. It is all but illegal to be poor in this country. But denying them ‘basic’ health care isn’t quite what I’m getting at.

    And our so-called health care system isn’t. In reality its a big scheme where on one end we make money feeding people junk food and unneeded pharmasuiticals, both of which make people sick, and on the other end make more money treating them as they slowly die of a myrad of diseases which didn’t exist in any great number 100 years ago. The entire system is designed to farm people for money, not promote and maintain health. And this same system has persecuted any doctor or treatment type which goes contrary and actually makes people well.

  183. Blessed1 Jul 11th 2012

    Andrew, why on earth did you put this out? I’m so very grieved that you wrote this and what type of outcome did you think this would produce? Edifying the Lord and encouraging His church? No one knows a man’s heart but him and God alone, so we should not be judging each other other than loving and praying for each other. Please delete this blog.

    Thank you

  184. David Helms Jul 11th 2012

    – by David Helms

    Wow… I am confused by your characterization of the TEA PARTY as a “Christian” movement and I am even further baffled at your attack against Christians in the United States. The TEA PARTY is a conservative “political” movement based on the idea that the US Government has grown too big and spends way too much money.

    The word “TEA” in TEA PARTY stands for “Taxed Enough Already” and represents the theme that government is too large, spends too much money, and should live within the confines of the taxes is collects, rather than spending our children’s future away in trillions of dollars of borrowed money. The TEA PARTY began as a grass roots movement against the government take-over of the US Healthcare system. This was the proverbial “last straw” in government growth and is said to have “Awakened a Sleeping Giant”. This is not, however, a “Spiritual Awakening” but a political one. Being a predominantly “conservative” movement, it is not surprising that the demographics show Evangelical Christians in large numbers, but that does not make the TEA PARTY a “Christian” movement. While I agree with the 5 points that that you outlined as being “Unchristian”, I strongly disagree that these 5 points are a fair characterization of the TEA PARTY.

    1) Mixing Christianity with Nationalism…

    I don’t believe that being a Christian and being a Patriot are mutually exclusive. I happen to be both. I also happen to be a husband, a father, a scientist, a farmer, and a businessman. I don’t have to choose which one I want to be, I can be all of them at the same time. That being said, the TEA PARTY does not mix “Christianity” with “Nationalism”. The TEA PARTY does not act in the “Name of God” but acts for the “Love of Country”. As an individual, however, I can be both a Christian who honors God and a TEA PARTY member who loves his country at the same time. Our founding fathers understood the dangers of mixing politics and religion. The idea that the TEA PARTY represents some form of “Christian theocratic movement” is simply absurd. The TEA PARTY is a “political” movement dedicated to smaller government, whose many members include Christians.

    2) Being the biggest supporters of War in America…

    The TEA PARTY does not support war. Actually, quite the opposite is true. The TEA PARTY Supports “Limited Government”. It is not the TEA PARTY who went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan… it was the US military under orders of the US President who acted with the authority of the US Congress. While the TEA PARTY does not Support War, the TEA PARTY does support our troops. You see, our military is made up of our most precious resource… our children. We may not agree with our government sending our children to War, but we consider it our responsibility to do everything necessary to support our young men and women when they are put in harms way.

    3) Siding with the Rich and Against the Poor…

    This would indeed be a very un-Christian attitude if it were actually true, but I challenge the author to explain how this accusation is related to the TEA PARTY. The United States is without argue the most generous nation on the planet. The charitable giving by Christians in the United States is enormous. I don’t mean this in a boastful way, I am just stating the facts. To suggest that the TEA PARTY is made up of Christians who don’t believe in helping our fellow man is patently false. As a matter of fact, we believe we could give even more if our government would stop spending us into bankruptcy.

    4) Denying HealthCare to the needy…

    I don’t know where you get your information, but to suggest that Christians in America are denying healthcare to the needy is rather insulting. The US has the best healthcare system in the world, but it does have its flaws. The problem with our system is not with the quality or delivery of healthcare, but with its cost. As healthcare costs rise, people are “priced” out of the system. This is why we have many government programs like MediCare for the elderly, MedicAid for the poor and CHIP for the Children, to provide healthcare for the people who can’t afford it. We also have laws in the US prohibiting doctors and hospitals from denying healthcare based on “ability to pay”.

    Conversely, we have seen what “Socialized Medicine” has done to the quality and delivery of healthcare for people in other countries. It creates government bureaucracies which ration healthcare and creates waiting lists for people who need immediate treatment. We know this because people from these countries who have “socialized medicine” come to the US for treatment that they cannot get in their own countries. Socialized medicine adds another layer of bureaucracy into an already expensive system. It serves to grow government and grow government spending, but does not solve the problem of rising healthcare costs.

    5) Pushing the idea that Political Answers can Solve Americas Problems…

    As a Christian, I get on my knees to battle against the Evil forces which seek to consume our nation and our world. I fellowship with other believers and we strengthen each other by seeking answers in God’s Word. As a husband and father, my wife and I teach our Christian values to our children. I try to set a Christian example in my home life and in my work life. But when confronted with a political problem, I see nothing wrong in seeking a political solution. As a US Citizen, I can use my voice and my vote to seek the real solutions which lie in smaller government and reduced spending. Thankfully, my children will inherit a greater Kingdom, but they still have to live in this one until that time comes.

  185. Alison Jul 11th 2012

    In Misnah Avot 3:5 Rabbi Nehunia ben Hakkanah says ” Whoever takes upon himself the yoke of Torah, (God’s loving instructions for His people) they remove from him, the yoke of Government and the yoke of worldly concerns, and whoever breaks off from himself the yoke of Torah, they place upon him the yoke of government and the yoke of worldly concerns”.
    The yoke of the Master, Jesus, is easy and His burden is light.

  186. Hi Andrew,

    I am actually kind of shocked to see this email coming from you. I feel that you are right on about the false-charismatic movement. But in all do respect I believe your opinion about the Tea-Party to be very misguided. I am going to respond in according to your main points.

    1) It is true that Christ’s kingdom is not of this world. However, we are called to be salt and light. America, with all of its faults, has been a country that enabled people to be greater salts and lights for the world. America is unique and was founded on incredibly biblical principles i.e. the value of the individual, right to reap what you sow, freedom from unrighteous authority. Where else in the world are there similar safeguards against tyranny? America has been a country that has been used by God. The tea party wants America to stay true to its Judeo Christian roots.

    2) Is all war unjust? All war is the reflection of the fall, but there can be righteous reasons to go to war. Islam is definitely raising up people who want to destroy me, you, and every other person who believes in Christ or individual freedom about from Allah. Because there are crazy people being inspired by Satan, we don’t have the luxury of not trying to stop them. This sometimes involves death and war. Research Dietrich Bonhoeffer. The German Christians of his day were saying that Christians can’t be for blatant resistance against the government. However, Bonhoeffer felt the urging of God to resist Hitler and his regime even to the point of participating in several assassination attempts against Hitler. Bonhoeffer concluded that obedience to the call of God meant that he would have to “love his enemy” by doing everything he could to resist there evil schemes. Is it possible that this is the case today? I am not fully for the Iraq and Afghanistan War, but I don’t see a biblical case to deem it completely evil.

    3) The Tea Party is not about resisting the poor and supporting the rich. One of the Ten Commandments is “Do not steal.” When the government takes from one who has earned his wealth and gives it to someone is chooses not to work that is government sanctioned stealing. The founding fathers of this country saw it as the Church’s responsibility to care for the poor, not the government. Paul said if a man will not work than he shouldn’t eat. The tea party just feels that the government does a lousy job taking care of the poor because when it does it creates a sense of entitlement for those receiving aid. So essentially you are mistaken that the Tea Party is against helping the poor. They just think that they have a better idea of how there money can help them than the government. For example, 30% of every dollar the government assigns to welfare, housing assistance, etc actually gets to the person. That is horrible. With organizations like Samaritans’s Purse and the Salvation Army 90% of each dollar helps someone. The government is hear to protect our rights not to provide. However, I am not against all government assistance because there are people that legitimacy need help. But people definitely abuse the system.

    4) Again the Tea Party is not against people getting health care. They are against the government providing health care. Technically a state has the right to do that if they wish, but the federal government has no constitutional authority to do so. A government that provides health care for everyone can also not provide health care to those it chooses. Government expansion is not a good thing because sinful, fallen, and selfish men and women are the ones that run government. Because of this the more power they receive the more harm they can and will do. That is why the tea party is against government health care. Besides that, again, the government has to tax people to provide this health care. The Church and charities should be responsible to help the needy. Not the government.

    5) You are right, we need revival. I pray for it everyday with my family. But we also need action. If there really is a devil, which you and I both know there is, than he would definitely like to have control of the political scene. Politics has more influence and ability to affect society than any other aspect of society. Because of this Christians must have a political stance and voice or else we forfeit our influence to Satan. Satan has been in the business of trying to create tyranny since the beginning and all throughout history. When man is in charge and has lots of authority it is easy for the devil to tempt him and mislead him into amassing power and destroying all who oppose. America was meant to be different. We were supposed to have safeguards to protect us from man’s sinfulness in the government by having the rule of law and a limited government. Don’t you think that freedom from oppression is of the Lord. For example, in Galatians it says it is unto freedom that Christ has set us free. The tea party sees abuse of government as a threat to freedom. The government does not have people’s best interest in mind. Politicians don’t have best interests in mind they have there own. They use topics like health care, poverty, etc to gain favor and votes.

    Andrew, what if God is doing a movement different than the past. What if He is raising up the tea party to be a hindrance to the plans of Satan for this country. If God is the God of everything than he wants to impact politics just like he wants to impact, culture, the church, media, our lives, etc. I saw that you responded that the right wingers could produce a global order just like the leftees and you sighted Hitler and Mussolini as evidence. Both of these men rose to power through socialism and progressivism (read a book called Liberal Fascism it is very enlightening). I am not a republican but I am a Christian and a conservative. From what I have seen, there is more presence of God, mentioning of scripture, and unity at many tea party rallies than most churches in the United States. I think you should be open that God could be doing something drastically different than the past. I think the Church has let the devil have to much political influence for to long. It saddens me that you immediately put yourself in opposition what the Tea Party is trying to accomplish in create more righteousness and accountability in government. The Church should do its job, not the government. I want to hear your response.

  187. Thanks Davo…I’ll have your statements on the blog shortly.

    Thank you for your sentiments. However, I sadly stand un-moveable on my position. I personally talked with the GOLUBCHUK’s family attorney as I fought for my mother’s right to hydration.

    Google searching “Golubchuk Jewish family” + “end of life treatment” gives evidence that my mother’s treatment is not unique and how the Golubchuk’s could not get/keep a feeding tube for their father.

    Or google search “Jean Wilder of B.C. held unlawfully by Interior Health Authority”

    Or “Stripped of rights by TOM BRODBECK — Winnipeg Sun” regarding “Thomas Hanaway aged 80”

    I found story after story of the gov’t intervening where/when they were not wanted by too many Canadian families, as I fought for simple hydration. Hydration is very simple and if she really was in her last days at that time, hydration would have been a humane courtesy for her and for her comfort level.

    The more power we give to gov’t … ie: the more we expect gov’t to care for us and help and watch over us … the less freedom the people truly have. If the gov’t is paying for something, don’t they then have the right to say HOW LONG they will pay, HOW MUCH they will pay, or WHEN they will cut your handout off?

    I do not think anyone living outside the United States of America can truly understand this “fight” that freedom-loving Americans are currently battling, because they are not living out from under some sort of socialism or dictatorship. And what you live under, you get used to. Therefore outsiders (Andrew included) cannot understand why even truly born again Christians can get worked up over politics and get worked up over keeping gov’t smaller and want to keep ‘hand outs’ to a minimum.

    The gov’t CAN’T keep every citizen healed or truly cared for lovingly, they can’t keep every citizen fed, clothed, and housed from cradle to grave. GREECE is a great current example. Nor should the American people be dupped into thinking the gov’t can take such care of them. And this is why you will find even Christians standing against such intrusion and take over of our freedoms.

    LOVED the 1 Samuel 8 reference!! It is so clear there!

  188. @Bernie Wade

    You are the man!!!!! Good insights.

  189. The two-class society IS coming in the USA. Soon. No matter who is president, the Congress will be given power to defy the president’s attempt to help the poor, and to keep a middle class. They will force the rich into complete power. That the Congress must defy the president hints who our president will be.

    It is so telling that flesh rules the “Christian” viewpoint. For the way something or someone appears to the natural eye, they deny that the middle class is being forced to their knees, and the rich are using their mouths to oppose themselves. The rich are smarter than you and I in money matters. They will not send the Trumps out to speak against Healthcare and greed, so they send the middle class out to do it against themselves, and against their own families and children. It is amazing – the herd mentality we observe here. By the time they figure how they have been deceived it will be to late.

    Those who are wise will prepare for the time coming by finding their niche, their calling by seeking God. Your gift will make room for you. It is time to prepare ourselves in The Lord.

  190. Darren Trujillo Jul 11th 2012

    Bro. Andrew,

    Sorry sir but you got this one wrong.

    I think you need to rethink this article. You sound like the crazy, anti-god, anti-Christian, left wing here in America.

  191. zeal4thyhouse Jul 11th 2012

    Utterly utterly deceived!

    That is all I can say about some people on here.

  192. Wyndle Jul 11th 2012

    You finally showed the rest of your colors in this long winded paragraph,

    “Regarding “some factions” who seek votes by encouraging non-work through government assistance (as you state at the end)… I’m wondering how you handle the fact that when jobs are abundantly available and people are qualified for them, they overwhelmingly choose to work..even IF they could get by on government assistance. But as wages have stagnated in the last 30 years (as a result of previously mentioned economic policies), more people have naturally turned to government programs. And YES – I AGREE – patterns of poverty can reproduce themselves. But I think it us radically presumptuous of you to look at this as – primarily – an issue of moral character. Given certain policies, we can turn nearly any citizen into an animal. I do not think the government programs encourage dependence by dint of their existence. I think we encourage dependence when we eviscerate the ability of millions of people to make a living and take care of a family. We recently did that by trusting the banking and investment industry to regulate itself. But before that we trusted that the mass exit of industrial jobs to be replaced by low-wage non-union service industry jobs. But that’d be ok, right? Because the exodus of higher paying manufacturing jobs would mean businesses could charge less for their products (because they’re paying so little for their labor now). Funny, the prices dropped a bit. But then started climbing again. We went on a privatization spree with health care starting in the 1980′s and, shock of all shocks, it proved to NOT be more efficient. The prices DIDN’T go down. ”

    Besides your liberal persuasion the union side also surfaced and shows how you also believe people are ENTITLED to good high paying jobs. “But before that we trusted that the mass exit of industrial jobs to be replaced by low-wage non-union service industry jobs.”
    This statement is typical of all the union arguments we hear everyday and is typical of the entitlement mentality you so believe in.
    You also said “I’m wondering how you handle the fact that when jobs are abundantly available and people are qualified for them, they overwhelmingly choose to work..even IF they could get by on government assistance.” Answer is government assistance does have limits and of course when people can work in a UNION job where they typically get paid twice what the average person does why not get off the couch and do something whether they are qualified for them or not?
    Yes wages have stagnated (as you call it) but perhaps it was a correction due to the fact Americans are some of the highest paid humans on the planet and have the best overall quality of life of any other country on the face of the earth. We as Americans have become terribly spoiled after having it so good for so long and thus our sense of entitlement. We having grown up in such a vibrant and FREE country just do not know just how well off we really are.

    This statement of yours really says a lot “YES – I AGREE – patterns of poverty can reproduce themselves. But I think it us radically presumptuous of you to look at this as – primarily – an issue of moral character. Given certain policies, we can turn nearly any citizen into an animal.” Here you claim policy has created all our problems yet we elect all these idiots we send to Washington and there is no one to blame but ourselves for the outcome, so what does this say about our moral character?

    You whole argument reeks of liberral, union entitlement mentality and I would say this idealism is a huge part of the problem in this country and why we are largely in the sad position we are in today.
    It does not take a rocket scientist to see what this mentality has already done to Europe and unless we do something fast it WILL be comming to a area near you very soon and when the whole system fails and government can no longer feed you and your neighbors start taking what you have to fend for themselves then I want to hear what you have to say about moral character then.

    We have no one to blame for this mess but ourselves, we have forgotten what the founders created for us, we have become spoiled and want to live beyond our means, and we have forgotten God and his word. We reap what we sow.

  193. It’s very difficult for one to be faced with the truth and realize it isn’t what we have been believing and practicing for the greater portion of our lives. Now we are faced with a dilemma. Do I repent and take a path more in keeping with the Word of God or do I find a way to shape my old practices to somewhat resemble what is clearly the real truth of what God expects from me? Can I reasonably keep my idols and mind sets yet, attend church and tearfully worship a God who desires my “whole” heart, mind, body and soul? Can I keep my prejudices and violent thoughts yet preach the Gospel of Peace? I believe much of the minor and major prophets clearly answered these questions. Jesus also quoted from the prophets.
    We need to tred carefully here. Jesus was clear about what He wanted from us. He wasn’t an American, Canadian, Brit or from “down under.”
    Sometimes quietly humbling ourselves before our God and asking Him what do you want from me? How can I please you Father? Then go with your heart and mind wide open into His word and see. It probably won’t happen in 5 min. you may have to lay all your former long held beliefs about people and their nature to be exploitative aside. You just want to know how am I to act, talk, touch those around me so that You, Father are pleased?
    I am concerned for the church in America and world wide. We have wandered from our first love and we must find our way back to Him. When all we desired was to please Him, love Him and do His will.


    You spoke your heart now allow the Holy spirit to do the work. He will! He loves the Bride! The one Jesus is coming to retrieve without “spot or wrinkle!” I imagine we will have to learn new ways, quickly….

  194. ChildofGod Jul 11th 2012

    Thank you, IsChristSoonToReturn. I am seeing something different now than just being for or against universal health care. It is all about too much of a shift of power to the government from the people…loss of freedom or freedoms of the people.

    I agree with what Andrew said, “–Pushing the Idea that “Political” Answers can Solve America’s
    Problems-. To me, this is the worst deception of all – the idea that
    America’s problems can mainly be solved with “Political” activism,
    or a change of government, or a new President.

    Christ and Him crucified are all that matter and us listening for what the Holy Spirit would have us do in this or any situation is of the utmost importance.

    No matter what happens in THIS world is naught to worry about, but how and if we reflect Christ to those around us, so they can meet our King of Kings.


  195. kelling Jul 11th 2012

    The two parties are just a game to be manipulated by the New World Order which at it’s core is Luciferian. Obama was picked to carry out certain plans to make a take over possible, an alternate plan would be if Romney happens to stumble in. All said and done it will not matter as Yahweh says he is the author and the finisher, he uses good and bad for his purpose, he says my ways and my thoughts are not the ways and thoughts of man. I do know that all our trust has to be in Yashua and we must call out to him,: Blessed be he that comes in the name of Yahweh”. Stick to the word not to what Politicians promise, Yashua gives us eternal life to those that grab hold of it. Praise be to Yahweh!

  196. Brother Bob Jul 11th 2012

    Dear Jim,

    Your comment “In summary, pretty much all around stupid Andrew…the worst thing you ever wrote!” is absolutely correct.

  197. Anna Justice Jul 11th 2012

    Dear Mr Strom….
    It is not a misconception that many folks in the tea party are angry. I ask you…WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT??
    Like the first tea party in Boston..it is a revolt against tyrrany. You seem to judge them as tho they have no right to be angry and openly proclaim that their behavior is ‘unchristian’. You discuss them as tho anger has no place in a Christians life. Quite the contrary…Christians need to get a little MORE fire in their belly about a lot of things.
    Now, it is about their money. This is the thing that has gotten them off the couch while they were virtually silent on other counts..but at least some are awake. They have every right to be angry. In their defense…it was also money that was the straw that broke the camels back for Jesus the day he drove the money changers out of the synagogue>> WITH A WHIP!!
    Be angry and sin not.

    You speak against the cold hearts of the tea party. You judge them as uncaring and withholding from the poor. You caution that government and religion should not be joined as ‘the kingdom of God’.. Ok, but don’t you then also see a problem with the government ‘playing God’ to gather wealth from one group and give it to another??
    Why is the drug addict’s child more entitled to someones hard earned money, the wages of their labor, than that person’s own child? There are many companies who would love to hire more workers. Let that person get a job to provide for their family.
    I have an opening at my company. They can apply any time.

    The government should not act as a pastor of the church taking donations for the poor. The various factions have their own agendas. The current power seeks to redistribute money from those who WORK to those who refuse to work.Yes..they are ‘poor.’ (..and lazy and on drugs and in sin etc etc ) Just because someone is poor does not mean they are ENTITLED to TAKE another’s wages.

    Jesus knew how to say NO. In fact he was known to have said…’It is not right to take the childrens bread and give it to the dogs.’ When the woman persisted- and humbled herself- he granted her request. So it is in America. There is plenty of help for those who will humble themselves and ask, not demand, assistance. There are plenty of churches right here in my town who are doing very generous things. I have a guest room and would be honored to offer you hospitality if you wish to come and observe for yourself.

    As far as honor for a person who happens to hold a government office goes, I will ‘show honor to whom honor is due’ as scripture requires.
    Rom 13:7

    As someone who lives in another country, Please understand that the media has a way of presenting a story to tug at your heart strings. It is usually not based in truth. You point to the example of millions of Americans being denied healthcare. That is simply not true. Right here in my city there are literally BILLIONS of dollars budgeted to assist the uninsured at my local hospital.
    Yes, there are people who bankrupt themselves trying to pay for allopathic medicine. There are alternatives to allopathic care. If they choose a road they cannot afford, that is not my concern. There are options. Meanwhile, as a naturopathic physician, I offer my services by donation, and only after the person is recovered. There are many roads. There are some who make unwise choices. The rest of us should not be judged and punished for the ignorant mistakes that other CHOOSE to make. Allopathic medicine has a 2% cure rate with cancer. Why would someone choose that road in the first place?It is a multi billion dollar industry that makes sick people sicker. Meanwhile there are alternative physicians with 100% success rates!! Am I to feel sorry for the person who spent all their money on a worthless promise of cure when there are doctors willing to GIVE them what they need free of charge?
    All of us must choose between life and death. The consequences of those choices are serious.What you are seeing from the tea party is a refusal to be asked to subsidize those unwise choices.

    I have never seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging bread Ps 37

  198. Brother Bob Jul 11th 2012

    Dear Darren Trujillo,

    You say of Andrew “You sound like the crazy, anti-god, anti-Christian, left wing here in America.”

    I have to sadly say I agree with you 100%.

  199. DeWayne Jul 11th 2012

    Andrew… It is easy to sense when you are ahead, when being kicked from the rear, something the prophet’s of old became aware.

    Your having spent time in the word, learning to discern good from evil, making now sound judgment that cannot be denied… as the new spiritual man.

    We (the church) in America have been misled so often by the misled, that some believe it time to Re-constructionist/Dominionist take America back to an Old Testament time of Law, of grab a rock and bring about justice.

    The god of war has made this nation the envy of the world, shout from the rooftops what the Lord whisper’s in your ear, my friend.

  200. @ TruthSeeker2:

    I think it does come down to what ChildOfGod just wrote:

    “It is all about too much of a shift of power to the government from the people…loss of freedom or freedoms of the people.”

    Sure, the big questions is: if my mother were in the US would I have had the money to give her the care she did receive in Canada? I understand Healthcare is super expensive. What I hated was that they took all of her belongings, sold them, did not give her family a chance to save any heirlooms or memories, and then would not give in to my desire to have simple hydration. They were in charge and called the shots.

    FREEDOM really is the bottom line in the argument and in the US we still have that freedom to get how much or how little treatment we desire … and yes, sadly, how much we can afford. But that is FREEDOM.

    Of course, it would be wonderful if everyone in society were treated the same way and taken care of in the same manner…every loving Christian, and even non-Christian acknowledges that. But man is just too darn corrupt to be able to do such … humanely … for the masses! :(

    “No hydration for those at the end of their life”, is today’s cry when the gov’t pays for Healthcare. Tomorrow it could be “We must humanely kill the mentally challenged, for they are a drain on our budget. And after all … they can’t be cured”. This is what Hitler did (and other countries too, yes).

    Let’s keep the control of MEN over our lives as limited as we can … while we can.

    Peace to everyone. Lee/IsChristSoonToReturn

  201. I am a Canadian, with many American friends….and although I do see things that American Christians do that are unique to them, and quite different from the way Canadian Christians approach things, I LOVE my American friends, and appreciate so much, and in so many ways, what you have represented to the world. We long to see your country restored to its former greatness, and pray for that. Our country is just as lost but in different ways….

    I doubt that most Americans would be able to tolerate our health care system if yours comes to that. We, as calm polite Canadians will sit there while people are left behind and hurt by our socialist health care system. You, otoh, will be up in arms if you had to deal with such things. It could become your health care system, but because of the American way, I doubt it will last long….I love the *fight*, the tea party mentality, if you will, of the American people. God bless you as you fight to see your country restored, first and foremost I hope, by prayer and revival, but also by whatever means God directs you to be salt and light.

  202. kelling Jul 11th 2012

    Give Andrew a break, it’s not like I agree with him on all things but he gives you a place to agree or disagree, not to attack his character! So I say bless Andrew in the name of Shar Shalom, Yahshua.

  203. One thing that was not mentioned in Andrew’s article, though you might include it within the category of the poor, is the attitude of so many right leaning in their politics toward the illegal alien question in America.

    When you read the Old Testament and find out multiple times God directed Israel to deal with compassion and mercy toward the alien and the stranger. Considering that they were once in the same boat themselves.

    This is the role Christianity should play, out of the political debate, and into the care and concern for those less fortunate, seeking something better in this world. What an opportunity to reach those who would be open to the gospel. Of course, there are some ministries and individuals who are fulfilling that role, though they are not popularized as so many other ministries are.

    It’s sad and pathetic the attitudes of some so-called christians, selfish, greedy, fearful, clinging to their little clod of this world, fretting and worried about anything that threatens there little shangrila.

    It’s fear, the politics of fear has captured many believers in this hour and it spreads to other issues. Brought in through 9/11. And if you haven’t gone back and looked at the videos from 9/11 on youtube you should. Bombs and explosions all over the buildings. Hundreds of people, firemen, police testifying to the explosions happening all around them before the towers fell. Draw your own conclusions, don’t just let someone tell you what to believe.

    Hebrews 11:13
    All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

  204. Andrew: I believe you are right on. Keep preaching. You know sinners do not want to admit their sin until they are ready to repent, especially those in the church.

    The blind are leading the blind by twisting the Scriptures and forcing their greedy unholy Jezebel control over the people. They actually think their views are Christian. They on “The Right” are led away by the pride of life, by those with the lust of the eyes. I think the lust-of-the-fleshers are on “The Left.”

    Speak the truth. Perhaps there are some who will repent of this world and join forces with Kingdom purpose.

  205. DeWayne Jul 11th 2012

    I would add one thing to gen-discussion, have (proper) respect, and in this regard point to Satan, and then to Christ.
    It is the Office receiving respect (if properly understood how this is done), and the office-holder is prayed for, prayer also called for if proper(ly) if understood. Some believe proper respect for both… is to worship both.

  206. One of the questions is, can God do something completely different to accomplish His purpose in our unique situation. I posted earlier so if anyone is interested in my view please look. Aside from that, the point I am trying to get at is can’t God do something new. Isn’t it possible that He cares about politics. We as Christians in the United States having something that Christians throughout all history haven not really had and that is the ability to exercise our God given rights (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness or property). We live in a different world than Christians did 2000 years ago. They couldn’t overthrow the Roman empire and they did not experience freedom. We have freedom and Satan wants to steal it and get government which is run by man (and men who are not Christians are technically capable and always end up being used as pawns of Satan) oppressing people. The Tea Party is trying to resist this. The Christians that are in the Tea Party see the big picture of light and darkness liberty and tyranny. The other people in the Tea Party are being used to stand for freedom and liberty without consciously trying to resist Satan. Those who have ears to hear…. Let Them Hear.

  207. Goodwordtoday Jul 11th 2012

    I think it’s pretty obvious that Andrew shows he is completely foreign to American politics and has been reading too many British newspapers. The Tea Party movement, while embraced by some evangelicals along with many other grass roots conservatives, is not a Christian movement at all. Most American Christians are like American churches – liberal in their politics. The Tea Party is a completely political and conservative animal and is based on the idea of rebellion against oppressive governmental tyranny.

    And the fact that many conservative Americans support war is based on destruction of terrorism and protecting Israel from being annihilated. If you actually talk to soldiers who are over in these countries, the Americans are trying to keep the peace and protect the people from a bunch of murderous thugs who strap bombs on their women and children without one iota of concern.

    Andrew, what you need to understand is that Americans feel responsible for the world. It’s in our DNA to protect the oppressed. And it gets expressed in soldiering as well as in sending billions of dollars to ravaged areas to help the people just survive.

    Also, this whole health care thing is political and has nothing to do with helping those in need. Health care in this country is not denied to those who cannot afford it. We have Medicaid and for the elderly we have Medicare. And people even when they cannot pay are given emergency care in hospitals.

    You are sorely mistaken about that and if you pay attention to any history, many of the hospitals in this country were started by Christians. I don’t know who the so-called Christians are who write to you and say stupid things like health care should be denied those who can’t pay, but I would question their salvation rather than their politics. I wouldn’t call them Christians at all.

    Look, the situation with health care in this country is in crisis because the government wants to force businesses big and small to pay for everyone to have health care. It’s a disaster to force that on the American public. And the government wants to penalize those who can afford to buy health care but choose not to. That is causing all the problems. People here want their freedom to spend their money the way they want to. We don’t want to be taxed anymore. In most states, we already are taxed to about 60-70% of salaries with federal, state, property, and consumption taxes combined. And the health care issue is going to bankrupt lots more families than it helps. We just can’t afford it the way that our government wants to do it. That’s the issue. And people get hot about it because the political parties, NOT the Christians, place the poor in the center of the debate.

    It gets very confusing when information comes from so many different sources and every one of them is severely biased towards a political stance…including you, Andrew, because you want the government of a country to pay for everything.

    Conservatism is the opposite of that. Conservatism places the onus for caring for the needy on the individuals in society, not government programs. The problem is that the government wants to tax us to death and we are expected to give as well and there comes a point where the people just can’t afford to do both and they get fed up.

    It’s not pretty and it’s waaaaay more complicated than you make it out to be.

  208. There’s so much wrong with this tirade, I don’t know where to start. First of all the Tea Party is a political movement for less government and more accountability. Some may mix religion and politics and many may be evangelicals, but from what I’ve seen it’s a group of patriots who want less government, no socialism (including socialized medicine), and would like to keep more of their money. I’ve seen no indication that they “side with the rich”–a typical leftist mantra. No one has a right to health care; anytime you claim a right that obligates others to give you something. Americans don’t turn people away from emergency rooms. In America conservatives are many times more “liberal” with their own money than liberals. Liberals want to take other people’s money (by taxes) and give it to their clients. Many conservative Christians are militaristic, but not all. It isn’t particularly a trait of the Tea Party. This is a poorly thought out bit of (largely leftist), extremely judgmental rhetoric. A foreigner can’t be expected to understand the anguish with which we conservative believers feel about the direction of our country. Having a foreigner, one we generally admire, misunderstand and misrepresent us is hurtful.

  209. Thank you, Noah, (on 7-10)—–
    You summed it up beautifully and I am NOT nor have I ever been nor do I know anyone who is a member of the TaxedEnoughAlready Party.
    I am a devout Christian who truly appreciates Andrew Strom’s books , especially The Kundalini Spirit book which was/is right on……but Andrew’s ‘take’ on what Christian conservatives are trying to do is wrong.
    I am sure there are some TEA Party members who are not lined up scripturally with some of their ideas but from what I can gather they are simple folks who are simply trying to stop this socialist/Marxist/Communist train that is barreling non-stop through the
    federal government.
    I am wondering if Andrew would consider it “unChristian” to vote for Mitt Romney who is, as we know, a Mormon?
    American conservatives -for the most part- Christian and NonChristian–want limited government and a halt to the destruction of the Judeo-Christian values upon which this country WAS founded. The TEA Party comes closest to pushing back to obtain that goal.
    Lord knows, the Republicans and Democrats who have gotten us into a sixteen trillion dollar federal debt are not doing the job.
    No group is perfect but at least some one, the TEA Party, has stepped up and is trying to stop this Marxist train.
    Is New Zealand a Socialist country? Maybe that is where Andrew is getting his governmental standard?

  210. Tiffany Jul 11th 2012

    I’ve been reading your replies here to some of the comments and I must say that everything you’ve shared I agree with completely and I just thank you for being bold enough to speak the truth despite it’s not a popular subject. You know, many years ago a met a very loving and caring woman of God who introduced me to Christ Jesus. Prior to ever studying the bible and accepting Jesus as Lord of my life, I got to know who Jesus really was by watching this woman who represented him so well. She was filled with so much of his love and she opened her heart to all people. For those who she disagreed with, etc. she would simply pray for that person meanwhile still showing that individual the Love of Christ Jesus! So many came to know Jesus as Lord and Savior just by merely watching this woman interact with all people. How could she still be so loving and kind to those who hated her, many would ask. What makes her the way she is? Who is this Jesus she speaks of? Did she learn her behavior from him? etc. She spoke strongly about repentance and about Jesus’ love telling everyone that even the worse of all sinners, the Lord still loves and would still accept. She never condemned a person or made them feel worthless and she would often share her testimony and how the Lord saved her. My point is what I saw in her, I don’t see in much of the church or those professing to be christians today in that she behaved in a way that drew people to The Lord, while many today behave in such a way to push people away. Sometimes it makes me sad because I think what Jesus must feel when a lost soul runs away from him because all they see from many who claim to represent him is hate, anger, bitterness, condemnation, criticism, racism, etc. It’s so sad, just so very sad!

    Thank you again for writing this article and speaking the truth! God Bless you!!

  211. It is foolish to pretend to base one’s opinion on a single piece written by one of millions of tea party persons. They are all individuals. Your article, Andrew is full of falsehoods, from the first sentence (majority of tea party people being evangelical Christian) and from #1 to #5, and in no way represents the tea party movement….or the love of God.

    As a group they do not support the rich over the poor. They do not support war. They do not want to deny anyone health care. They are not pushing that the answer is “political”. You are dead wrong regarding your anti-nationalism stance, also. What don’t you get about the ultimate goal of God in that all existence will be ONE, under Him some day….sure sounds like a nation to me.

    Christ said His Kingdom is not of this world because He was telling man, including you, that you would not be establishing His Kingdom. No man is capable of teaching the Truth or applying it perfectly. Man is not capable of ruling himself, until he is conformed to the Will of God….(that is what this entire worldly process is all about!). Christ will do that, establish His Kingdom, Himself when He returns for His 1,000 year rule, starting with a war against evil and ending with a war against evil (yet you dare say that Christ is not about war?). His Kingdom will be one of accountability and responsibility, and it will be inflexible iron rule. Gee….does that sound conservative to you? How you must hate those words.

    As to nationalism and God being combined….what about the story of the Jewish nation do you not understand, Andew? Starting with Abraham (who loved God above all else), God intended to take the Jewish people and establish and magnify their nation throughout the world….but they spit on His face. Have you read Ezekiel, the latter part….it is all about the nation of the Jews being established as the center of the world rule in Christ’s coming Kingdom…the one that HE establishes….not you or man. Even tho the Jewish people walked away from God….He did not abandon them. HE is faithful to HIS purpose. He went ahead and allowed His Son, Jesus Christ to be everyone’s sacrifice and Doorway back to the Father. What did the Jews do….they killed Him. As was the Plan. Yet God still does not turn away, and for His Sake and His Name they are brought back as the center of the Mellinnium Kingdom….at the end of these 70 years they have been given to finish their inequity. All about nationalism….and we can rejoice…the gentiles….that they can also have a part in this coming nation….if they conform to God’s Will and not theirs….or yours…or mine.

    “BE YE THEREFORE PERFECT, EVEN AS YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT.” (Mathew 5:48) This is Christ speaking. It means we are to be conformed to the Father, to learn what He is about and be like Him…..all of HIM, the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament….WHO WAS, WHO IS, WHO IS TO BE.

    That being said….the biggest deception the dragon has performed within the churches of man is to turn them away from the GOD of the Old Testament. If a Christian cannot reconcile the God of the Old Testament with the Christ of the New Testament….that christian is not complete…AND IS DECEIVED. God does not change. Christ said, “If you see Me, you have seen the Father.” He was saying….I am also the SAME as the Old Testament God. He did not come to do away with the law…but to fullfill it…and boy does He fullfill it when He returns as King of King and Lord of Lords! Praise Him for His Universal and Perfect Conservative, Unchanging Correctness.

    The Father believes in WAR and Wrath and Anger. That is a part of His nature, and a part of Christ’s nature. Christ is in charge of the Wrath being administered during the end times….total war and destruction throughout the world. Doesn’t much sound like a pacifist to me! God destroyed entire nations and led His people to do it. He has not changed. LOVE that cannot be kindled to righteous anger is not love at all, but the sin of tolerance and fence straddling.

    The entire Bible is about accountability and responsibility, and conservative principles. If one was to deny it….they are a phoney and led unkowningly by the dragon. He is a God of LOVE. True LOVE is not the phoney touchy feely, tolerant, without boundaries love that man expresses today, and that socialism supports. God’s LOVE is all about correction and accountability. It wants what is best for the other, and the best cannot be achieved without work, application of God’s standards, accountability and responsibility for one’s actions.

    That is also what the tea party movement is about….honesty, God’s standards, hard work, accountability, and responsibility for self and within the government. The tea party movement is all about people awakening and standing up for our constitution which God inspired after we escaped from the corruption of Europe. The tea party is proud that God created a country that the entire world wants to come to. Why are you here Andrew? We have become corrupted as individuals by the liberal views of the dragon and the self worship he encourages, and by the milk toast watered down churches of man. The tea party wants to get away from that and put God back into our country and to support the constitution that put us on the pathway to continue to be a sanctuary for the world. That sanctuary which will protect the millions of Jewish people and others that are within our country during the Great Persecution and martrydom that is coming.

    The tea party believes God when He said we should not live beyond our means, nor should we allow our government to do the same. DEBT is a big tool of the dragon…and enslaving tool. The tea party objects to Obama Care, not because they want to deny others health care, many of them don’t have health care…but because it is deceptive, and because it will actually diminish health care for all. We do not have the money to accomplish it….we will go bankrupt…..are going bankrupt because we are taking care of people who can work but won’t because it is easier to get a disability or to collect unemployment than to take a lesser paying job and provide for self. The tea party wants to provide care for all….but we cannot afford it. Women have children outside of marriage as a career move while in highschool….because they get a welfare check and it gets bigger with each child. The appropriate, and responsible thing to do would be to sterilize them and take their children away. Knowing that would happen would cause accountability to take hold….and they would not continue in their irresponsible behavior and rebellion against their families and God’s Will and standards. Or…perhaps we should put them in a work camp of only women where they cannot get pregnant, and take their children away from them and put them in good homes. Do you think Christ is going to tolerate such behaviors in the Mellinium? Think about it. People of this world encourage abborant behavior because there is no consequences….only rewards. That is not God’s Way.

    Do the research on disabilities in the past and now. We have a safer work environment….but yet the rate of disabilty now is skyrocketing! Why! Because they are faking it. They don’t want to work. Alcoholics, overweight, endulgent diseases, mental attitudes, are all disabilities now! Much money is made on disabilities now…by the providers, monitors, and the recipients. I had a doctor offer me a disabilty that I knew was false and I turned him down and walked out of the office….because I am honest. Corruption is rampant.

    In the Old Testament, and in Christ’s time….if one was foolish, rebellious, overendulged, sinned unto disease, didn’t work but were capable….if they didn’t have family or friends that would take care of them….that would tolerate them…..they died. They went on to the Father, and hopefully the death process led them to true repentence so that when they got there to the Father they were forgiven by the blood of Christ….which went backward and forward. It is the FOREVER LIFE that counts, Andrew, not this fleeting one that you so seem to cherish.

    The Bible says that we are not to even welcome into our household those who do not have our doctrine..the Doctrine of Christ who was the same as the FATHER. What do you suppose that means? It means that if we do…we threaten the fall of our entire household. Parents don’t even teach responsibility and accountability anymore. They are too envolved with teaching self esteem…much to the delight of the dragon.

    I would gladly give more than 15% to my government in taxes to provide for the needy and the destitute. And, beyond my taxes, all that I have will be used to help others….but I won’t go into debt to do so…nor will I require my government to do the same. But…I will not help evil. As for taxes, even the most poor can pay $10 towards the government once a year. I don’t hear anyone talking of that. The rich in America pay 75% (I think) of all taxes taken in by the government….and 50% of all Americans pay NOTHING! If something is to have value it seems that one would want to pay something towards their country that gives them so much….wouldn’t you think! Just like the poor widow who gave to the LORD who she LOVED that is remembered in the Bible.

    Wake up Andrew and others. This entire course that is being promoted by the socialistic agenda is about getting our country, and others around the world, to go bankrupt so that we fall into the one world global rule system of the dragon and his elite followers…we will have no choice. That is what is truly going on. The tea party realizes this, and wants to preserve our country. It is grand to give everyone health care….everyone….but we don’t have the money!!!! And…by the way…..are you familiar with the fact that no one can be refused care if they go to an emergency clinic????

    Now…lets point the finger where it belongs….NOT at the tea party but at the churches of man. There is a free medical clinic in West Plains, Missouri….that is sponsored and supported by the small churches of Christians (true Christians) and the Christian doctors, and volunteers. Wouldn’t it be grand if the mega rich churches, and the middle rich churches gathered their monies to do such things, instead of promoting their own glory and gain?????? It is to things such as this free clinic that I will donate my monies towards. The Church was organized to take care of the poor and needy amongst us. It is not the job of the government of man….but the job of those who are governed by Christ!!!!

    I just heard on the local news last night that two guys, 17 year olds had held and poured lighter fluid on an innocent cat and than set the cat on fire. It showed the cat in the vet office…burned all over it’s body…..innocent eyes of pain, wide open, wondering what happened?…it later died of it’s injuries. What happened to the guys? One got 5 months probation. The other is yet to be sentenced. Man tolerates such behaviors…so those evil kinds go on to harm innocent children and whatever else they feel like as they walk through the world of man. Perhaps a worthy priest would give them absolution if they faked a repentence, and they would go on to be priests in the Catholic church and have many opportunities to express their evil upon the innocent children within their parish? Such is the tolerance and ignorance of foolish man trying to play at god.

    God would have killed them….or allowed man to do so. They would have a chance to truly repent knowing they were going to be killed.

    Yes, Andrew, I am angry, because I am like my FATHER, (in Christ) and I am angry at what I see on this world today….as man looks to his own understanding instead of trying to fathom God’s Understanding. I love My Father above all else, and do not put man before Him. The age of the Grace of Christ is about over, and the age of Correction and Wrath is coming. You men have failed my God…..just as did the Jews. God will always bless a movement towards Him, and those who hold up honesty and honor no matter where it is found, just as He will reveal covetry no matter where it is found.

    The tea party is not about one person’s opinion, nor is it about what the liberal controlled news media reports. It is individuals who are tired and fed up, and have enough of the corruption of man, they are waking up and starting to look to God for their rule. They believe in accountability and responsibility and want to see it within their government. Mock them if you will. They are human and will not be perfect and will make mistakes and will be decieived. But they will do their best, and you wait and see, God will bless them for it.

    Zechariah 12:10=And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn

    1st Peter 1:13=Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

  212. Martin Jul 11th 2012

    Oh dear, Andrew. Something of a hornet’s nest here!

    I can do little but congratulate you in getting people to respond.

    Now, I’m not going to comment here; being a Brit, and unfortunately still living here, I don’t have a say.

    However, looking back over the last seven prime minsters elected to Downing Street, we actually didn’t get that which we voted for; just a more extreme version of what went before.

    So, whoever is voted into the Whitehouse, no change I’m afraid!

  213. Tiffany,

    Sounds like a wonderful woman to know indeed! I also would love to see more of that (and be more that way myself!)

    I have prayed diligently for a mentor to help me in raising my two boys in this ungodly world, but I have yet to come across one who believes fiercely in separation from the world while giving oneself to it sacrificially for Christ.

    Unfortunately, my mentors have only been from reading their books or reading about them. These all gave their lives on the altar before the Lord, seeking to commit their ways to Him continually.

    My mentors and heroes in the faith are Mother Theresa, Elizabeth Elliott, Amy Carmichael, and Corrie Ten Boom.

    I am very thankful for their lives and testimonies. Hopefully I can influence others in some small way that resembles their witness.

  214. Diana Green Jul 11th 2012

    Andrew, I have been super blessed by many of your emails, but this time I am only sad. It looks like you have been listening to and accepting a lot of leftist propaganda! I’m so sorry!

    Teavangelicals don’t hate the poor. They just know from history that it is the rich that provide jobs for the poor, and when the rich are not taxed to death the poor are better off.

    You are totally right that our trust must be in God and not politicians, and a prayer movement is of more value than a political movement. Administrators are necessary for any society, but they are not the saviours of society. (Many surveys say that those on the right seem to pray more than those on the left. That is definitely true in my circle of acquaintances, and I’m not talking about token pray-ers. I am part of several intercessory prayer groups who spend hours each day in prayer.)

    As for war, everyone hates war. Americans have never fought a foreign war because they wanted to conquer another country. It was always done protect America from agression, as far as I and most evangelicals understand. Even Jesus told his disciples to take a sword for protection.

    In no way do Christians want to deny health care to the poor. They are the biggest providers of health care to the poor, through hospitals, church programs, etc! What they do not want is for the government to spend trillions on wasteful government programs that in the end will lower health care opportunities for everyone. Why do so many people from Socialist countries come here for health treatment?

    Please, Andrew, do investigate this some more before sending out such a wrong characterization of many of your brothers and sisters who truly love the same Lord you do!

  215. God’s people wanted a King. God wanted to be their King, and tried to ‘talk’ them out of it…They insisted they have a king ‘like’ all the other nations. So, He gave them Saul. America is the only country that has never had a King. Now it looks like the American experiment is floundering. I learned that Jesus Christ was the only Perfect one on this earth…but we keep trying, never satisfied that we cannot save ourselves. We just keep trying, ignoring The Only One Who Can. It’s like those misguided ones who always say to God when in trouble, “Wait God, I can handle this myself, but thank you very much” Not good, not good.

  216. justonemom Jul 11th 2012

    I could not disagree more. There were no insurance companies throughout most of history. To assume that suddenly since the inception of health insurance that Jesus wants everyone to have it is ludicrous. The reason most rational American’s oppose mandated healthcare is because they are not blind to the tyranny which lurks in the hospital hallways. Marxism is marching through this land. If you love Jesus and want to see His Kingdom advance then you should strongly oppose the leftist ideal and fervently embrace the foundational principals of the United States, which God has used to bless Israel and the world.

  217. Andrew Jul 11th 2012

    Let me clear up a few things.

    Firstly, I have lived in America for 4 years. And I have been ministering flat-out to (mainly) Americans for the last 16 years. That does not make me an “expert” but I do know the US scene well.

    I am very much a “Conservative” in my views – not a Socialist or Liberal at all !!!

    I wrote this because I am deeply concerned at what I see taking place with US Christians – being “driven” into more and more Political activism. I believe it is a “counterfeit” and is doing great harm.

    I always knew people would get mad and call me names.

    But this is important. A “counterfeit” Awakening.

    I have to speak out.

    Bless you all.

    Andrew Strom.

  218. Suzanne Jul 11th 2012


  219. Wow eyes closed to what I consider a cruel punishment to ppl that are ill.
    I agree with this from Myrtletree: i find it apalling in this day and age that millions of americans can,t afford healthcare. the basic right of everyone is healthcare, a nationalised healthcare and it is not just the right of the rich. america is not the land of the free when you can,t afford to be ill. Why in the world should one with money only be able to get care for their body? I just read posts and see cruelness and non-compassionate people. I know God looks down and shakes his head. People are being abused by the healthcare system the US has in place EVERY DAY!!! Wake up!!! The sad thing is, as I always say, until u r the one being abused and discrimminated by the companies u wont get it. So sad!

  220. I challenge you Andrew, to send my post to all your liberal friends, and to all your Christian friends. I welcome their rebuttal, and hope that they know God, better than you seem to know how the tea party is thinking and behaving.

    I am respectively appalled that you would side with the mainsteam media who are actively spreading lies and deception to the ignorant, self endulgent masses within my country……..and in so doing are also siding with those they support who are anti Christ and everything Christ stands for.

    THE CHALLENGE is LAID DOWN……not to prove my rightness, but to challenge each and every persons true faith and what they hold most dear. Who do they worship….MAN or God?

  221. I don’t understand this subject deeply enough to give a comprehensive comment but I have read some comments which quote the scripture “If a man doesn’t work, he doesn’t eat”. I do not think that this means that if a man doesn’t work, his neighbours should make it harder for him to eat. his scripture should not be used to base such a strong position on.
    It seems to me that there is more cirtainty in Christs words that respond to his disciples who seemed to have similar concerns about being taxed when they asked if they should pay taxes. Jesus said to “give to Caesor what is Caesors and to God what is God’s”. It seems that the “don’t work – don’t eat” comments are quite protective of what is Caesors.
    I understand that there is some complexity to this and so I am pleased that there can be discussion for edification rather than more angry mud slinging. Very interesting subject. I hoep that Australian Christians can get our heads around it as there are similar devisions here also.

  222. Andrew Jul 11th 2012

    Let me also state very strongly that I am not basing my views on the Tea Party on anything else but what Tea Party people themselves have said – and the things they send me.

    I am not concerned what the Liberal Media has to say.

    I am very concerned with what Tea Party Christians are saying.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  223. kelling Jul 11th 2012

    Well does any of this matter as Yahweh is in charged. You might want to look to the underbelly of the matter, the two political groups are just shills. Look up the main players,: The House of Welf, Rothschilds, Trilateral Commission, Skull and Cross Bones-Bush-Kerry ect, Ben Bernake, even your lovely Rupert Mudoch-huge investments in Saudi Arabia, the Tea Party Billionaires David and Charles Koch- 50 million to both Dem and Rep causes in lobbying, good O’l George Soros Obama supporter and many other players. In the end the center is Luciferian and simply takes you away from Yashua and Yahweh’s word. Stuff will hit the fan this Fall but it will not be a Political Savior to save you, better look up friends as your redemption draws near, only Yashua the Lamb returning as the Lion of Judda is worthy!

  224. JustOneMom…..you are brilliant in your commonsense and knowledge.

    Yes, indeed, there was no health care for most people in times of old right up to the time we are in. People relied on God and their own ability to eat as best they good and in home remedies. They relied on the strength of families and the strength of their local community. And, yes…they died and went on to the Real Life. That is our sentence….given by God to Adam and Eve. Man tries in every way to avoid the sentence, and spends so much time doing so that they neglect their Restoration…..seeking their way, man’s way…..instead of God’s Way.

    Had Adam and Eve not fallen out of Eden, they and all their children would have had perfect life….and perfect health….and the Tree of Life was there and they would have lived forever.

    Man is trying to make Eden here on earth again….and since the fall it can only be done by God when Christ is through with His Rule. Those who want to rule over man (backed by the dragon) seek to encourage man to think that he is owed everything…..that everything is a free ride…..and the government can supply those needs….they do not have to rely on God for their Daily Bread, but upon man.

  225. These are the symptoms of error in the Americanized gospel, not the cause of the error though. Dealing with the symptoms is an eye opener and reveals much about the state of christendom in America.

    BUT, we have to fix the gospel as people understand it if people are ever going to see what God requires of them and what they will be accountable for on judgment day. Jhn 12:47-48 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day”

    Jesus extends mercy today and an opportunity to get it right but the day of justice is soon at hand. We will give account to Him. We are going to be judged according to what Jesus has said. Which among other admonitions is the preeminent admonition to OBEY!! What He has told us won’t amount to anything if we don’t do it.

    As long as doctrines of “free grace” and “faith alone” are allowed to be propagated without correction, christendom will be glutted with believers thinking that obedience to the instructions of Christ are optional and disobebience without consequence. This is the source of such indifference to Christ’s doctrine and going astray. NO FEAR OF GOD!!!

    The simple explanation to these doctrines means that I am not accountable for what I do. I can live any way I want and still get away with it. Sadly sin is a way of life for many professing believers, but that doesn’t matter, not to worry, ’cause they’re saved. They are saved in their sin, that is their gospel. Grace to them is the permission to live in sin but still be saved. Hey dude, “I’m justified by faith, it’s not of works”, which somehow makes sin acceptable. This is where of the vast, vast majority of American evangelical/pentecostal christianity is today.

    The gospel that allows for compromise with sin is no gospel at all as I read my Bible. It is a heresy, the foremost damnable heresy there is and some of the most famous and popular preachers in America preach it with a vengeance as gospel truth. God have mercy on them!

    The gospel is leavened as most of us have had it presented to us. It’s true! You know a tree by it’s fruit and the fruit of the American style, Billy Graham style, evangelical style, TBN style gospel is carnal, worldly, rank with sin. They didn’t teach us we have to live free from sin! They didn’t teach us we have to obey as Christ says!

    Grace has ceased to be the path to freedom from sin, now grace grants us permission to indulge sin, with impunity. The gospel of grace has been perverted, as Jude 4 warns us, into licentiousness(license to sin) and the fruit is that church people continue to live lives corrupted with sin and many will end up in hell because of it, deceived by religion and religious men, promising them freedom while being slaves of corruption.

    The evangelical gospel is sick from head to toe, prolific and dangerous because of it’s almost universal acceptance as orthodoxy. Being rooted in this “false grace” theology is what allows evangelicals to pursue nationalism and their patriotic interests, allowing them to indulge sin, despise discipleship, ignore Christ’s commands and to love and live for this world. Even to the point of destroying the lives of others, based on the bogus American claim of earthly freedom. After all, it’s all of grace, don’t you know?

  226. Tiffany Jul 11th 2012

    Andrew wrote: I wrote this because I am deeply concerned at what I see taking place with US Christians – being “driven” into more and more Political activism. I believe it is a “counterfeit” and is doing great harm.”
    Amen Andrew, I agree completely and truthseeker2, thank you for your postings I’m in total agreement with you!

    God bless

  227. Kelling….you would be rather limited if you only looked at the corruption that is going on now.

    This country was founded many years ago and these parties did not exist at that time.

    Honest people are trying to go back to our founding roots and the constitution and government which is under God and supplied by God.

  228. Ibelieve Jul 11th 2012

    You sure hit some raw nerves here. :)

    These comments only show the reason why the church is in the condition it is in.

    ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
    And seeing you will see and not perceive;
    For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
    Their ears are hard of hearing,
    And their eyes they have closed,
    Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
    Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
    So that I should heal them.’

  229. Oh, yes….and you can be sure that the true tea party movement, which cannot be defined or even organized, is truly sending you those things.

    Just as when man organized the churches and christianity, they no longer could be trusted.

    We are in an age of deception….you, Andrew, I would guess are a prime target for the dragon, because of your ministry and your personal desire for reformation and renewal.

    You need to trust that God is capable…..and does not need man to accomplish what He Will.

  230. Excellent and very insightful article Andrew.

    But many Americans will not see the truth you have written. The responses of several here show how deeply they have been conditioned with a McCarthyist mindset. Just look at how “socialism” is so soften portrayed as THE enemy.

    One of the greatest hindrances to the gospel in America must surely be Nationalism where Amercia takes precedence over (or is at least confused with) the Kingdom of God, and the ideals promoted are a conservative POLITICAL agenda rather than a conservative SPIRITUAL agenda.

  231. Geoff……scripture teaches that if a man is capable of work, and there is work to be done, and the man does not take that work which is offerred….that man shall not eat.

    That is very simple….don’t twist it to support any idiologies that you or others may have.

    God’s words are true.

  232. kelling Jul 11th 2012

    Not so Claudia if you studied history below the surface you would find it was about money and investment, study the layout of the Capital, the Masons going back to our founding fathers, the Mormon belief that Mitt will will rule from the 5th floor of the Mormon Tabernacle, sorry it’s all a lie. The word says our Fathers lied to us. There is a way that seems right to men but leads to death. Only pleading the blood of the Lamb Yashua over all else will save us, what is coming is very bad, we have to make our stand with Yashua, man and governments will fall.

  233. Andrew Jul 11th 2012

    That is sadly true, Onesimus.

    And what terrible “division” and ugliness is caused by it all.

    This in itself can be JUDGMENT upon the nation. Clashes and division and infighting.

    Christians need to stay right out of this ugly fighting.

    Bless you!


  234. This article is so misguided in so many ways. Your conclusions are drawn on misinformation, misunderstanding and just a general confusion about what the facts are. Just because you lived in the United States for a while does not mean you grasped the political and yes, spiritual nuances that we Americans have dealt with daily for our entire lives. Every major conclusion you have drawn can easily be refuted, but I get the feeling that you wouldn’t see it anyway. There is an obvious anti-American bias in your article that disqualifies you from ANY balanced opinion coming forth. If things were like you described them, I wouldn’t want to be a US citizen either, conservative or not. I subscribe to your newsletters for the occasional great items that are posted but you sir, are a legend in your own mind. We have enough problems in the US and the American church without half truth or no truth bombs thrown from so called Christian brothers. I don’t know of ANYONE who claims to be a conservative, Tea Party or not, that holds to the opinions you claim we have. Shame on you Andrew. It’s time for some personal self examination, repentence and forgiveness…. BIG TIME

  235. Andrew,
    I have read through more of the comments here. Ironically so many of those that oppose what you wrote don’t realise that their comments are actually PROVING the truth of your article.


  236. Andrew Jul 11th 2012

    Yes, my friend.

    Sad but true.


  237. Roy, you said it.

  238. kelling Jul 11th 2012

    Oh man! You Constintines are giving me a headach, leave Andrew alone, Yashua rules, read Job and guess who he decides is in charge even if he does not understand Yahs ways?

  239. Robert Jul 11th 2012

    Please forgive any format problems, as most of you know when taking responses from MSWord to Gmail the result is sometimes not pretty. But, Mr. Storm has, it least is seems, hidden his agenda behind the cover of a claim to be conservative. He must be answered. He may actually be a conservative even though his note does not sound like one as conservatives don’t say anything without checking the facts. So, please take the time to read my necessarily long response to Mr. Storm. Then we should all pray for him and all those who live in this great land.
    Mr. Storm,

    You make several comments that make little or no sense from the point of view that you claim to have in your personal life.

    You say you are a “Conservative Evangelical Christian”. The main point you give to support this is that you are anti-abortion AND hold “all the usual Conservative Views”. This, on the surface, seems to qualify you to speak as a conservative on the Tea Party. There is a little problem though. You then go on to attack, without any caveats, the ‘typical’ views of the American Conservative, not Republican, but Conservative. This is the first clue that you are in fact someone with far-left views who is passing himself off as a Conservative. The left is real big on word play and loose logic, and you have demonstrated this throughout the whole commentary, taking a page out of the Marxist handbook; “Lump them ALL together”. This is done to cast the shadow of your condemnation as far as possible. No real Christian would spread his judgment so wide and so uninformed. You seek to ‘capture’ the hearts and minds of those that “read but do not study” which is a common trait on the right and the left, among Christians and other faiths, and among Progressives and Conservatives.

    So let us take you points one at a time and shed a little real Conservative thought on them. We must of course remember that Conservatives, like mixed chocolates, are not ALL the same, they will all hold a few moral beliefs to be true, but that does not make them all the coconut filled chocolates that make me choke.

    #1) Your first poorly framed comment is: “An Unhealthy Mixing of Christianity with Nationalism.” Leaving aside the term ‘unhealthy’ because it is totally subjective and without definition what is left is a mixing of ‘Christianity with Nationalism’. Our country started when a strong contingent of Christians with strong views on a free nation decided to separate themselves from governance by a Monarch. Among that group of Christians there were both nationalist views and world views; two camps, the federalists and those later dubbed Anti-Federalists. Also among the ones seeking a separation were deists, atheists, agnostics, racists, and groups of people that held no particular faith or political views at all. That is the history or our country. It appears that you have not studied that history or the modern Tea Party movement, as they both hold all these things in common. The racists were the first to quit and that has been true in the Tea Party as more and more minority groups have joined in with the various Tea Party groups.

    This is a country based on a long history of the “Church” being highly involved with the Government. It wasn’t until 1951 that any Judge on the Supreme Court even used the term “Separation of Church and State” (Justice Black) and he took it from one line in a lengthy letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Church. In that letter Jefferson was saying that the Church (Christian Faith) would never be forced into one denomination and that the Church would never be left out of the Government. It wasn’t until the ‘hippie’ movement of the late 1960’s that any Supreme Court case used the term to render a legal decision and since then the whole history of the United States has been changed to reflect this rather unusual and un-American idea. The idea of a healthy mix of Christ with Government is the basis of the whole Constitution of the United States. The term “Seperation of Church and State” appears nowhere in the founding documents. For almost 200 yrs, until the advent of the strong progressive (the group that used to be called socialists) movement this healthy mix of Christ and Government worded very well. Strike One Mr. Storm

    #2) “Being Basically the Biggest Supporters of WAR in America.” I guess you have not made a total condemnation here, but it sure sounds like you have. The Tea Parties did not form over any of the issues related to war. The term “Tea” stands for “Taxed Enough Already” and that is the BASIC platform of all Tea Parties. None of them have cheered on the wars that our current President took over from President Bush. In fact, the premise of “Taxed Enough Already” is that all parts of Government need to be reduced and personal rights restored while lowering the tax burden and balancing an UNHEALTHY budget. There are people on both the right and the left who support the wars, however, having spoken with far more Tea Party members than you could ever count the general consensus has been that Bush should have pulled out of Iraq when they caught S.H. and that small covert teams should have scouted out UBL and brought him back alive for trial in a military, NATO, court. The simple fact that over 35% of all Tea Party members support Ron Paul because of his stance on the military makes a joke out of your statement. Strike two on you Mr. Storm.

    #3) “Siding with the Rich and Against the Poor”, Marx, Stalin, Hitler and many others have made ‘class envy’ a centerpiece of their commentaries to bring people over to the “correct’ form of thinking. I know of no rich Tea Party members. I have heard the same undocumented and ‘rumor’ filled diatribes on TV news that you have about the Koch brothers footing the bill. Yet, I have never seen one dime of this ‘so called’ rich money come into any of the Tea Party events that I have helped to organize. I have seen the results of Billionaire George Soros (self proclaimed Socialists [not sure how rich and socialist go together]) footing the bill for groups such as Move On.ORG though. Instead I have seen people who average being in the ‘lower-middle class to the upper-middle class’ (if you want to put people into “classes”) who are now paying for all of the socialist nonsense that has been enacted over the last four Presidential office holders. We have seen our nominal income tax rate raise by as much as 10 percentage points while seeing the poor grow at a larger rate; and we have seen the cost of food and fuel go up by as much as 200%, to support social programs that give people fish but never train them to fish. The measure of a GOOD social assistance program is not how many are put on it, but how many who are on it leave and return to an active and joyful self determination. Putting the Lord Jesus Christ in the mix is fine, if you wish to put a whole biblical study in that follows all the words He spoke and His whole ministry; otherwise it is just you using the name of our Lord vainly for the purpose of supporting your weak points. Tea Party activists at all levels give more to the poor than any other group, per dollar earned, in the United States. They give to their local Congregations, which they actually attend. They give to charities that feed the poor, and volunteer at double the rate of progressives in food shelters etc. They give to programs that train or re-train the American Workers!! And, they then pay taxes to a government that uses as its first argument “we can’t cut (fill in the blank) because it will hurt the poor. Nothing has hurt the poor in the United States more than the current broken welfare system. Let Charities do what charities do best, as the Lord Jesus Christ said, “render on to Caesar what is Caesars and render on to God what is Gods”. He never told us to give Charitably to the Government or the masses without at least making sure they were in need. Strike Three Mr. Storm.

    #4) “HEALTH CARE – Denying it to the Needy.” Like all good progressives you equate the Affordable Care Act with healthcare for those who can not afford healthcare. If it is for those that can’t afford healthcare then why is it that over 15 million people will still be without any care except for the local emergency room when the plan is implemented? Why does it need to be taxed for five years without implementation to support what the left says is ten years (the second five years) of healthcare? That is a boondoggle of the worst kind. The Conservatives have long supported ‘mandated’ healthcare for those that were truly in need, and a plan to ensure (not insure) that every person who needs care gets it from a qualified Dr. Today 70% of Drs. recommend that new medical students not become primary care givers. 50% of them are going to leave the medical services altogether or are thinking about doing so, over the next 3 yrs. Why? Because they can’t afford to give PROPER care to anyone at the rates the Government HAS set and is continually revising downward. It is obvious you know nothing of the Conservative Christians viewpoint on healthcare. It was Conservative Christians that pushed for the Civil Rights Acts; it was Conservative Christians that pushed for the Charter School Program in the inner cities that have educated thousands of poor/needy children who otherwise would have been relegated to subpar public schools like the Washington D.C. system (btw..President Obama has canceled the funds for that program, guess he is for defunding needed care and education for the needy). And, it was Conservative Christians that pushed for the laws that made it illegal for an emergency room to deny care to ANYONE for ANY reason. Strike Four Mr. Storm

    #5) “Pushing the Idea that “Political” Answers can Solve America’s
    Problems”. Once again your ‘generalization’ is straight off of MSNBC. Every Tea Party I know of has a Saturday ‘prayer for America’ meeting somewhere. Every meeting starts with a prayer recognizing that the Power of God is the only true answer to the problems facing America. Everyone of those Prayers contains the concept of ‘correct’ us in those things that we are wrong about. While progressives deny God in every facet of their lives (no more proof is necessary than the attendance record and the Charity record of the elected officials on the left, both of which are abysmal). Oh yes, we see that now as the election draws near our President is going to church once a month or so, but he was far more likely to be playing golf than going anywhere near a church on Sundays for 3 1/2 yrs. This is also the constant record of those elected on the left; Go to church when back home in front of voters, but go to parties on Sunday in D.C. You sir should be ashamed for not having looked at the record of true Conservatives who whether in the Tea Party or out, in office or out, attend Church nearly every Sunday and many during the week go to bible studies and prayer groups. We know that without God in America, there will be no America for our Children. Strike five Mr. Storm.

    #6) You didn’t supply a number six, but you did offer this judgment against people that you obviously don’t know anything about. “In summary, I want to say that I believe that many of the attitudes and behaviours of the “Tea Party” evangelicals in America are totally un-Christlike and unchristian.” I even left in your misspellings and poor grammar so I could not be said to have falsely stated your point. You have judged repeatedly and condemned repeatedly a whole group of people by tagging them all as one piece of meat to be inspected for your personal approval. I am looking for a place in the bible where you are supposed to do that; since you are an Evangelic Conservative I am sure you have such a biblical quote, but in 36 yrs of ministry I have never come across one. I don’t agree with the stance of the progressives very often, but I don’t judge them for their stances, it would be an exercise in futility. I do find it rather unusual that throughout your condemnation of the Tea Party members that you only speak in ‘generalities’ and never specifics. In the future please name names, state dates, and give some kind of link that proves your point. And, of course as instructed by the Lord Jesus Christ please make sure you have two or three witnesses. Strike six Mr. Storm, two outs, bottom of the ninth and the bat is in your hand, you can either pound out the wheat or continue to pound heads, its up to you now.

  240. downbyaswamp Jul 11th 2012

    Right on Andrew! Jesus is saying in heaven right now to the tea partyers “get off My side”

  241. kelling Jul 11th 2012

    Actually 3 harvests, Barley easy harvest heads float off the shaft, wheat has to be beaten, olives and grapes, goes through the press really hard. Which harvest are you in?

  242. kelling Jul 11th 2012

    What ya going to do when Yashua comes for you?

  243. I totally agree with your article!!! I come across so many people who see this present day Christianity as “a hate religion”.

  244. All this just makes me want to draw close to God no matter what goes. That is the most important thing of all. Total surrender to Jesus and His Lordship. God help us all.

  245. I just read some of comments posted and am saddened to see that Christians are feeding into all this right wing propaganda. Ron Paul stated that the largest recipients of welfare are the corporations. They do not pay taxes and get bailed out after the biggest ponzi scheme ever during the Bush Administration. America is headed toward a Third World Nation, blind, deaf, and dumb. Jesus was not for war or the rich, if so, he would have had his disciples fight for Him. America gets what it deserves, judgement. Revelation 18 states that the angels rejoiced over the fall of Babylon.

  246. This topic has really highlighted where people’s hearts are focused.

    Who do we serve?

    God or Nation? Truth or politics?

    Who or what informs our understanding of truth?

    God, His Spirit and His Word?


    Cultural and political conditioning?

  247. i agree with most of your thoughts in this article.. we are not to strive against the government and wage political wars so to speak. we are here for the Kingdom of God. Be not entangeled with the affairs of this life that we may please Him who has chosen us to be a soldier. paraphrase of 2 tim 2:4
    I believe we are clearly told to pray for our government that we may lead peaceable lives.. Our government is full of people who do not fear God.. We do need revival to put the fear of God back into our country, which is the only way to change the course of this nation. thank you

  248. I suppose, Andrew, that you think that Jim Wallis’ approach is the kosher “Christian” way?
    American is not nor has it historically been a Socialist government. Most TEA Party members would agree
    that it is not a religious organization but a political movement which many conservative Christians have been
    drawn to as we have watched how the corrupt Obama regime has steamrolled its way into American politics and culture.
    We have seen a federal debt grow into a 16 trillion dollar debt bomb.
    From George Washington until George Bush the federal debt never grew more than 8 trillion dollars.
    In less than 3.5 years, Obama/Pelosi/ Reid have jacked it up to nearly 16 trillion.

    How much IS a trillion, Andrew? A trillion is a number so high that only two groups of people use it: Scientists who are measuring interplanetary distances
    and politicians who are absconding with and wasting the tax dollars of hard working citizens.

    A million seconds is 12 days.
    A billion seconds is 31 years.
    A trillion seconds is 31,688 years.

    Translate that amount into dollars and you essentially have a citizenry that has entered into indentured servitude to the U.S. government as well as the
    foreign governments from whom it was borrowed.
    These are a few of projects and expenditures that the Obama administration has decided to squander BORROWED FROM CHINA AND JAPAN, TRILLIONS on:
    $175 million to maintain an unused monkey house;
    $1.8 million for a museum dedicated to old Las Vegas signs;
    $615,000 to digitize a Grateful Dead collection;
    $823,200 to study genitalia washing in South Africa;
    $224,000 for a bus statue;
    $609,160 for a zoo to develop a “Wolf-quest” video game;
    $997,766 to install poetry at zoos nationwide.

    — $233,000 to the University of California at San Diego to study why Africans vote.

    — Researchers the State University of New York at Buffalo got $389,000 to pay 100 Buffalonians $45 each to record how much malt liquor they drink — and how much pot smoke each day.

    — Two Arizona universities got almost $1 million dollars so 3 grad students can study how ants work. That’s more than $300,000 per job.

    –Companies that raise tropical fish, shellfish, catfish, alligators and turtles qualify for $50 million in tax money to buy fish food.

    — A half million dollars for new windows at the Mt. St. Helens visitors center in Amboy, Washington. The building has been closed since 2007 and there are no immediate plans to reopen it.

    — North Carolina public schools received $4.4 million to hire math and literacy coaches, not to coach the students, but to coach their teachers.

    –$6.9 million dollars for repairs to an 1846 brick fort marooned on Dry Tortuga at the end the Florida Keys. Few people can visit this remote national park unless they hire a seaplane or take a four-hour round-trip boat ride.

    –Creating a museum in an abandoned train station in Glasboro, NJ, at the cost of $1.2 million

    –A study of dog domestication at Cornell University with a price tag of $296-thousand dollars.

    –$141K dollars to send students from Montana State University to China to study dinosaur eggs.

    –$762K to create interactive choreography programs at the University of North Carolina. Dancers would wear electronic monitors to analyze their movements.

    –$89K to replace sidewalks in Boynton, Oklahoma that were just replaced five years ago. One of them goes nowhere near any houses or businesses and leads directly into a ditch.

    –$298,543 to predict the weather on other planets.

    –$144,541 for Wake Forest University scientists to give monkeys cocaine and see what happens. Even scarier: they’re having the monkeys administer the coke themselves.
    No word yet if part of the cost is allocated to rolled up hundred dollar bills.

    –$712,883 to build a machine that tells jokes.

    –$294,958 on a program to reduce menopausal hot flashes with yoga classes.

    — $1.2 million for research how elderly people react to playing video games.

    –$180,935 to discover a better method for freezing rat sperm

    –Jello wrestling contests and studies of shrimp (prawns) exercising on their own, cute little tread mills.

    To quote Patrick Buchanan:
    We borrow from Europe to defend Europe.
    We borrow from Japan and China to defend Japan from China.
    We borrow from the Gulf Arabs to defend the Gulf Arabs.”


    ” Nowhere in the New Testament or the other books of the Bible do Jesus Christ, His apostles, God the Father, the Holy Spirit, Moses or the Hebrew prophets command the government to take money from its citizens and transfer it to poor people.

    In fact, the Bible says just the opposite.

    God presents us with three general ways in the Bible to take care of the poor and needy: 1) through the family; 2) through the church; and 3) through individual charity. The applicable passages for these three ways are Deuteronomy 14:28, 29, Numbers 18:24, Matthew 6:1-4 and 1 Timothy 5:3-16.

    People’s first obligation is to the needy, poor, widowed and orphaned in their own families. Only after they do this do they have any obligation to help the needy, poor, widowed and orphaned through their local church organization. God established the pattern for this kind of church giving in Numbers 18:24 and Deuteronomy 14:28, 29. As David Chilton points out in his great book “Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators,” the bulk of Christian giving to the local church should be geared toward financing professional theologians, experts in biblical law and church discipline, teachers of God’s word and leaders skilled in worship. It was only every third year that all the giving was set aside to help the needy, poor, widowed and orphaned. Even then, the money was not given just to anyone who showed up. Those able to work but don’t do not qualify for help. Also, those who have families to take care of them don’t qualify, nor do widows under age 60 qualify, according to the Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 5:3-16.”

  249. jorgedelaselva Jul 11th 2012

    Sorry, Andrew, you have missed the mark sorely. You have generalized the American Christian community grossly. Perhaps that is because you do not reside here and you probably pick up a fair amount of your opinions on us through biased media reports.
    You stated that Christians support the status quo of denying health care to the indigent. The status quo is that even without national healthcare no American or even illegal alien can be denied treatment at a hospital, oh , and btw just about every one of our American hospitals have a name that reflect the religious institution that originated it.

    You have mistaken the political views of the Republican party for the views of evangelicals. There is some truth to that idea but there are such a myriad of political ideas, your rational would be similiar to assuming that every Catholic American Democrat supports safe and legal abortions.

    The maln emphasis of the Tea Party is that way too many of our elected officials have become bribe takers and they consistently violate their oaths to uphold our Constitution. The Tea Party is fed up with many Republicans and many Democrats. You will not find much positive news about them in the media because the political establishment of both parties hate their reform ideas.
    Our national media outlets completely ignore the man who many think has the best ideas to become president, Ron Paul. Why, because he threatens the status quo of both the rotten American political establishments.

    If our media misrepresents the Tea Party, what do you think your NZ media does. Are you so decieved that you easily believe gossip about a group of people.

  250. I have to laugh…..I used the word strife for strive in the above post…but actually strife is more correct as God wants us to battle for His Truth. As Christ said, ….He did not come to make peace in the world but to bring strife. Standing or seeking the truth without compromise brings strife for a time, but only for a time…..or is it times and times and a half times! ;-)

    Bless you all….fully expect that “Lynn” will also be kept from commenting….which is the right of the owner of the forum….but which is contrary to the purpose of the forum.

    Claudia Lynn

  251. How hard is it to read what Andrew actually wrote and respond to that instead of making so many illogical associations and links to unrelated people, groups and philosophies?

    How about addressing what he said instead of making baseless accusations?

    I suppose it is very hard to overcome a lifetime of cultural and political conditioning to be able to do that.

    So often a person’s influences, interests and prejudices are exposed by the terminology they use.

  252. Brother Bob Jul 11th 2012

    Perhaps Andrew is trying to suck up to Obama by supporting ObamaDeathCare so he can get a visa back to the USA?
    I notice Andrew refuses to respond (accept with non-responsive sarcasm) why he’s OK with the requirements of Obama666Care for all health insurance to pay for abortions and sex change operations and for everyone being required to have a chip put in their hand or forehead to receive Obama666Care.
    Yes. At first I thought God was just directing Andrew elsewhere by denying him a visa to enter the USA from a socialist country. Now I realize that he was really sparing USA churches was his false doctrine and socialist propaganda (there’s too much of that already).

  253. quote:
    “Bless you all….fully expect that “Lynn” will also be kept from commenting….which is the right of the owner of the forum….but which is contrary to the purpose of the forum.
    Claudia Lynn”

    Surely the owner of the forum is the one to determine the purpose of his own forum.

  254. Andrew Jul 11th 2012

    Brother Bob – you, sir, are a godsend.

    There is little to smile over in all this.

    But you provide that little “humorous” touch.

    Bless you!


  255. Again, the continued bigotry, ignorance and false associations in some of these comments show that the content of the original article was totally correct.

    Truth is certainly the victim when bigotries are challenged.

  256. Andrew

    It is a dangerous thing for a “man of God” to speak things that are not true. Some of the things you speak are simply untrue. I would encourage you to rethink your post and seek the Holy Spirit as to why you chose to speak things that are not true. I fear for your soul if you continue in this manner of mixing truth and untruth

  257. jorgedelaselva Jul 11th 2012

    Andrew, does it not seem somewhat hypocritical that just a few posts back you said “Christians need to stay right out of this ugly fighting.”

    You are the one that posted very incendiary political comments. You have immaturely posted on a subject that knew would cause division. And now you say let us not fight. Hypocrite!

  258. amen to that

  259. jorgedelaselva

  260. Tiffany Jul 11th 2012

    @Onesimus (Tim)- AMEN!!! AMEN AMEN AMEN!!! to all you’ve stated!! Thank you sir!

  261. “…when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognised”.

    Division often shows which side of the fence people are on and what their priorities are.

  262. kelling Jul 11th 2012

    Had a Sod moment while weeding my garden, no pun intended, as I was taking my hoe, instrument, and weeding I was separating the weed from the fruit to be. Perhaps the article by Andrew was the hoe, the instrument, to bring out the weeds so they could be seen. So the article brought forth a lot of venom and meanness out of people towards Andrew who is a servant, not always right or wrong, but a tool for Yah. Those that have trashed him have been exposed, perhaps some are even Tares? Anyway it would be good to search our own eyes to find the log that is in them before we find the splinter in Andrews. So may we repent and pray wellness for all our brothers and sisters in Yashua. remember the body of Yashua is made up of many parts.

  263. Jacob Bowman Jul 11th 2012

    Matthew 5:10-12 (NKJV) Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 “Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

    Didn’t the Jews think the Messiah was going to free them from their government? What did Jesus do:

    “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
    Because He has anointed Me
    To preach the gospel to the poor;
    He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
    To proclaim liberty to the captives
    And recovery of sight to the blind,
    To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
    19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” Luke 4:18-19

    Did the Disciples/early Christians protest their government that persecuted them?

    They preached the Gospel, made disciples and were killed.

  264. Daniel Jul 11th 2012

    Andrew i agree with you the bible in Prov 26:2 states without a cause a curse shall not come.. that the problems in usa are spiritual.
    christians aren’t for war; the Left state we are.
    christians aren’t against the poor; usa does need help on this one; the Tea party wants to help the ‘usa poor’ we are upset that illegals come here by breaking the law; then want and get social benfits that are for cititzes/or legally here. And the Left media states since the tea party want laws agaisnt illegals, means we are against the poor; and newcomers; VERY FAR FROM THE TRUTH. Even in Bible their were laws to obey if one lived in the Jews lands; why can’t usa have laws that one can’t come here and ask for handout without working???
    In bible states no work no food/benifits.
    Jesus ask Peter whom paids taxes citizens or non-citizens; answer was non-citizens in usa opposite; suppose to love others as love self……………..usa isn’t taking care of usa citizens, yet gives $$$ to illegals…….tea party wants that to change.
    most other nations don’t allow the ‘ancher baby’ tea party is against it also; and are painted as against newcomers………
    i live in CA; just in Los Angles there have been more then 20 hospitals that closed down for not getting paid……..
    usa is socialize; where someone comes to hospital; hospital has to treat them; with/ without paid. Look at maps of usa where illegals live that is where 95% of the closing of hospitals for non-payment………so poor citizens/legals in those areas are now without hospital care cause of illegals……………..
    people here legally the hospitals can/do get money from gov’t to see them; not for the illegals.



  265. Andrew Jul 11th 2012

    I do not watch CNN, NBC, ABC or whatever.

    I listen to the “Tea Party” people themselves.

    And it is not good.

    Bless you!


  266. Tiffany Jul 11th 2012

    So much anger and unkindness from so many professing to be christian! It’s so sad, so very sad…and to think this is what the world see ): no wonder the church is in the state she’s in. So many choose to walk according to the flesh and reject the fruits of the Spirit. So very sad!

    Andrew, thank you again for your boldness in speaking your heart and the truth! I happen to agree with all you’ve shared but if I didn’t agree, I wouldn’t waste a moment condemning you and/or being unkind. I would simply pray for you and still show you the Love of The Lord. This is what I’ve been taught a “christian” should do! God bless you always!

  267. Andrew has said nothing in support of Obama, abortion, liberal politics and all the other straw men that are being dumped upon him.

    Those accusations and the way so many have thrown themselves forward to defend a personal political prejudice strongly PROVE the point being made in the original article. That many in America direct their hopes and devotion to wrong thing. That they have been conditioned to accept a particular viewpoint and to defend it at all costs – even the putting it ahead of God’s own Kingdom standards: that American conservatism has been confused with the gospel of GOD’s Kingdom.

    Tiffany, not only is it sad to see such anger and unkindness, it is worse to see so many lies and misrepresentations being thrown around – false accusations made, attempting to defend a political prejudice that has been ingrained through cultural conditioning.

    Such cultural conditioning blinds those affected – they know no alternative. It often takes a concerned “outsider” to see and expose it.

  268. To say that Christians are not for war is untrue. The so-called “Christian right” is heavily for war in the name of protecting the “freedom” of our country. The US seeks to police the world. I don’t know about the Tea Party in particular, but Republicans (of which party I was once a part) are very much for war. There is a place for defending one’s country, but it has gotten way out of hand.

    I believe this article is simply speaking of the gross imbalance of many “Christians” in America who make patriotism and nationalism their god. If these things are your gods, you are unlikely to see it at this time. I pray that your eyes will be opened, as mine were about 4 years ago.

  269. From Robert’s post:

    “#3) “Siding with the Rich and Against the Poor”, Marx, Stalin, Hitler and many others have made ‘class envy’ a centerpiece of their commentaries to bring people over to the “correct’ form of thinking.”

    I am also seeing the “leaven” of a little Marxism spreading through the United States, the Church, and the world to the point that now you have Marxist theories and teachings trying to influence and replace the Word of God, or shall we say “teaching for doctrine, the commandments of men”. This has been going on slowly, slowly since the 30’s, picked up mightily in the ’60’s, and has steadily spread world-wide through schools and media. And now it shows up in the Church, iin both the congregants and the leadership. “A little Marxisms leavens the whole lump.” Sad, sad.

    Robert, you have got it down right.

  270. Andrew I simply disagree with you for these reasons, The objection from Christians such as you that religion and politics do not mix can be answered in at least four ways. First., it’s true that the Bible’s primary concern is not politics. Of course, the same could be said about the family and church not being the Bible’s primary concern. And yet, there are few Christians who would maintain that Christians should not be involved in developing biblical models for the family and church. Second, because there is sin in the world, God has created temporal ways of dealing with it. In family government, God has designated mothers and fathers as rulers (governors) to admonish and discipline their children because children tend to disobey their parents (Eph. 6:1-3). The “rod of correction” is one instrument of discipline (Prov. 13:24). In the church, depending on the ecclesiastical governmental structure, bishops (Episcopalian), elders (Presbyterian), and deacons (Congregational) have ecclesiastical authority in their respective churches and/or denominations. The reason for church government, including its laws and discipline, is the reality of sin even among Christians (e.g., ICor. 5-6). Paul outlines ways for churches, as ecclesiastical governments with real and necessary authority, to handle disputes among members (1 Cor. 6:1-11). Third, civil government has been given authority to maintain order in society, to punish evildoers, and to promote the good (Gen. 9:5-6; Rom. 13: 1-6; IPet. 2:13-14). Essentially, civil governments have jurisdiction over what people do of a criminal nature (theft, rape, murder, etc.). As Thomas Jefferson put it, “the legislative powers of government reach actions only”. But what actions deserve punishment? Left to itself, history has shown us that civil governments can be notoriously unjust and tyrannical. Genocide has been committed against racial and ethnic groups with the full approval of civil governments. With no moral reference point outside the State, civil governments are not bound by ethical constraints. For example, “In 1933, it was officially declared in Germany that the FINAL authority as to the principals of the State and the law is the National Socialistic German Workers’ Party; that no other political party could be formed; and that the Fuehrer should make its laws.” Fourth, politics, because it deals with civil government, is not a necessary evil; it’s necessary because of evil (Gen. 4:4-5, 23-24; 9:5-7. The sword is the State’s God-ordained instrument of “wrath”. This is why the “law” is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers” ( 1 Tim 1:9-10). Since civil government has the power of the sword, it is incumbent upon Christians to get involved in politics to ensure that political officials use it wisely and with restraint.
    The mixing of religion and politics is unavoidable. To prohibit one religion only opens the door for the entrance of another. Remember this:
    God only – and never any creature is possessed of sovereign rights, in the destiny of nations, because God alone created them, maintains them by his almighty power, and rules them by his ordinances. Sin in the realm of politics, broke down the direct government of God, and therefore the exercise of authority, for the purpose of government, has subsequently been invested in men as a mechanical remedy. and in whatever form this authority may reveal itself, man never possesses power over his fellow-man in any other way than by an authority which descends upon him from the majesty of God.
    I hope you will reconsider your point of view because it is through apathy that our nation has come to this state of near destruction.

  271. Another “Marxist “straw man thrown into discussion.

    This has nothing to do with “Marx” or Marxism”.
    May you be freed from the brainwashing that has made “socialism” and “marxism” THE great evils to be opposed.

    They are no better or worse than any other “ism” that claims to have answers while pushing God and His Kingdom aside.

    Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.
    Don’t promote “answers” from Godless systems ESPECIALLY those that try to use the name of God as a promotional tool while advocating ideals opposed to God’s standards.

  272. Dear Onesimus, Marxism itself is the godless system that has spread its tentacles worldwide. It has spread misery and poverty and slavery and death throughout the world (hmm, isn’t that what the Devil wants?) and yet, people like you do not get it and espouse many of its central principles and tenets as some kind of a fact of life and principle in the Word. Maybe you need to find out from a secular source that which you have not understood spiritually – try “The Gulag Archipelago” – a little light reading. Solzhenitsyn lived through it all and was horrified at how the U.S. was allowing Marxism to spread here. That’s a 20th century reality, how the devil has killed millions, and is ready to steal-kill-destroy in this day and time and in this country – all we have to do is continue to let it happen. Lose liberty and freedom, and the devil is all too happy to come in and take over. It’s happened before a thousand times over and it can/will happen again, unless somebody takes a stand.

  273. kelling Jul 11th 2012

    Read Job from start to finish and see if you understand that Yahweh is in control of all, he is the author and the finisher, he wrote the book kids, Alph to Tav, not a guessing game. in Col. 1 he says he will rectify all things to him!

  274. Response to Andrew’s article: Yes, yes, yes! Your view is very unpopular in American Christianity though. Thank you Andrew for boldly saying it !

  275. Arnie Fishman Jul 11th 2012

    I have to disagree with you almost totally. The tea party is the only group of men and women who come the closest to supporting the founders of the nation that at least granted liberty and freedom to Christianity and the law of God. The founders were not totally christians–many were deists–that said I dont have much love for many of them for many were fools. But this system has allowed Christianity to floresh and to spread the gospel to four corners of the earth. The tea party is the only group of men and women from a political perspective that can govern the way the majority of founders wanted—a limited government, a republic of states where was to be a union of strong states that had sovereignty over the federal government, no central bank, no federal reserve to create money out of nothing.

    Am not sure where you gleened these 5 points from. I have attended two tea party rallies and no one talked there like the things you claim. Can you please post your sources? I cant believe you say they are mean spirited! To be honest, they should be alot meaner–for the wicked men in both republican and democratic party have hijacked america and taken us into the abyss out of personal greed and folly of communism. This is not about the poor—this is about both parties stealing from everyone for their own benefit.

    The only point I agree with is the last point you made. Any person who believes America can be saved from destruction by any political party currently in existence is seriously deceived.

  276. Joanne Jul 11th 2012

    While I am an American citizen, I have close Christian friends in both New Zealand and Australia, and their ideas and experience of health care are vastly different than the average American Christian’s. We have to agree to disagree on this very emotional topic and others which involve politics. This forum has exposed the fact that there are many true Christians who disagree with one another on lots of things, but our disagreements should not provoke anger or ridicule of our brothers and sisters. We were brought up in different cultures and have very different callings from the Lord. I pray that what Andrew has posted will cause many to think carefully and examine themselves –instead of calling down judgment on others who see things differently. We all (including Andrew) see as in a mirror, darkly, and each of us is only one part of the whole. The world will know we are Christians BY OUR LOVE.

  277. LC, people like me are blessed not to have been subjected to brainwashing from birth to convince us that “Marxism” is the evil above all evils.

    Godlessness is not just a matter of denying God in word or doctrine.
    One can speak about God continually using His name as an authority but still be godless through USING Him for our own purposes instead of being devoted to HIS purposes.

  278. And LC, you clearly do not recognise how other tentacles “have spread misery and poverty and slavery and death throughout the world”. Marxism does not have a monopoly on those things.

    Any godless system will promote its own agenda at the cost of others – but some use the name of God when doing it.

  279. Andrew Jul 11th 2012

    I don’t agree with Marxism or any other “ism”.

    I only agree with “Jesus-ism”.


  280. Rebecca, Atlanta, Ga. Jul 11th 2012

    A couple of years ago, my husband and I attended a few of the Tea Parties around Atlanta – as we wondered what was going on and had to see for ourselves. I went to a suburban one with another born again believer….what we witnessed was inspiring…..calmness, respect, peace and honor to our Father and Jesus Christ….no war mongering, mean spiritedness, or down with the poor. The worship was wonderful.

    My husband attended the downtown gathering and witnessed similar behavior and activities……

    This was our experience and what we saw…..

    Have you attended many? Or should I say any? People can write or say anything – but it is by their actions on which we are to see who and what they really are. Same for the Tea Party…



    We are to honor the office of President and pray for our leaders – however God will hold us accountable for how we vote and talk and hold true to His words. We are not to support ungodly behavior or ungodly government – and we are to stand up for what we believe God would want us too. We are to be salt and light in our society.

  281. kelling Jul 11th 2012

    Yahweh says to study to show yourself approved, so I am off to study the Du Tillet Manuscripts, The Good News According to Matthew. Look them up they contain a lot of info and research into the book of Matthew. Shalom in Yashua.

  282. Rebecca, right on!

  283. God gave the medical profession the revelation, insight and technology to help people heal and prevent health problems. Though some have the faith not to use them, God loves the others as well, and He has provided the knowledge to help them. How Christians can believe their countrymen are not entitled to the care that will make their quality of life better, or save their lives, I do not understand. How can they want to see their neighbor in pain, just so the wealthy can hoard more dollars? How can they be deceived to champion their cause? Why are the bank accounts of the rich their cause? Interesting much.

    Andrew, you are right that there are Americans in this wealthy nation, that do not have access to the care they need. I have witnessed the many incidences of our countrymen that do not have access to healthcare, and the results. Tragic. Tea partiers who say this does not exist are in denial. Denial of, rebellion against, truth leads to mental illness. There we go.

  284. Andrew Jul 11th 2012

    Kay – you are right.
    But the point I raised was more that Christians seem to want to FIGHT to keep the poor with less access.

    That seems very ugly to me, that the Christians would FIGHT for such a thing.

    Bless you!


  285. Danny Richardson Jul 11th 2012

    Andrew—I have supported you on practically all of your doctrinal emails and investigations into truth and error. However on this “teavangelical” posting you are completed mistaken. You don’t even have a clue. You should wake up and smell the coffee about what your friend Obama is doing to the America that gave religious freedoms to the free world. Is this truly how you feel about the Right in America? Stick to the Word of God and stay out of American politics. Unless you served in a uniform then I will respect what you have to say about what is happening in the States. The Republicans aren’t perfect. Neither are you. You must be reminded of this.

  286. Andrew Jul 11th 2012

    Obama is not my “friend”.

    I simply don’t believe any President should be spoken about in the venomous way that US Christians do.

    It is totally “off” – totally un-Christlike.

    Bless you!


  287. Doug Hanson Jul 11th 2012

    Well said Mr Strom. Patriotism is not a Christian spirit. In fact patriotism has caused almost as many wars as religion. Our allegiance is not to the flag nor this country but to the Kingdom of God. Its not God and country…just God.

  288. T Adams Jul 11th 2012

    I have to disagree with your point of view. I consider myself a Tea Party conservative yet I do not support war, vote for republicans, or even look down on poor people. The bible says those that don’t work don’t eat..Now I realize that there are people who CAN’T work and I certainly don’t support NOT helping these people.. that wouldn’t be right. It’s the people that take advantage of the system to steal money every month that bother me.
    Our government is corrupt. I have always felt that as a Christian I am to obey GOD’S law. It’s when His law conflicts with the governments law is where the issues being discussed here actually lie IMHO. What commandment has NOT been broken by the past dozen or so regimes we “elected” into office? These evil, corrupt and greedy people have commandeered America and are using her as the enforcement tool of their “new world order”. I am supposed to support that?
    The president’s health care package includes tax payer funded abortions and will implement panels to decide if life saving measures are to be granted to those over 75 years old. I guess if you are deemed “worthy” they’ll let you live..(If you are Dick Cheney or someone of his ilk don’t sweat it)..
    We are supposed to SUPPORT THIS??
    I cannot stand before my God and when asked why my money paid for a teenager to have a baby sucked out of her and dismembered, say “I thought we were supposed to obey the government”..
    Can you?
    I could go on and on about what these luciferian control freaks are doing to this planet..and to us..and specifically ME, but I won’t. Hopefuly everyone on this board recognizes why 80% of our crops are being lost to drought, why our skies are constantly being criss-crossed with line after line of aluminum, barium, strontium and synthetic life forms, and why we never have a decent person on the presidential ballot.
    And I am supposed to support this?

    NO.. I am not….

  289. Charles Johnson Jul 11th 2012

    Utter Tomfoolery and Monkeyshine!

    Response to #1

    The TEA Party does not mix Christianity with Nationalism, as if such a thing could be done in the first place. TEA is an acronym for Taxed Enough Already, so obviously there is no implied “Christianity” in the name of the Group. So this charge is simply false. Furthermore, just because the two cannot be mixed, does not prevent a Christian from being a Patriot. The US Constitution is the law of the land, and the philosophy of the US Constitution is the Declaration of Independence. It begins as such, “…we hold these truths to be SELF-EVIDENT, that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, and are ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR (they meant by “Creator” the God of the Holy Bible) with certain unalienable rights…life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.” This Republic then was founded according to a Biblical ethic. There is nothing wrong with a Christian standing upon this heritage of America, being proud of it, and indeed defending it. God’s hand in this Republic is evident, for where the Spirit of the Lord is THERE IS LIBERTY, and America has promoted liberty more than any nation in the history of the world.

    Response to #2

    The TEA Party does not implicitly “support” wars. Again, the TEA in TEA Party means Taxed Enough Already, so obviously just as there is no implied “Christianity” in the Group’s very name, there is likewise no implication of “supporting wars” in the name of the Group either! So this charge is likewise false. The Group is about being against punitive taxation, nothing more/nothing less. There are a diversity of members then, Christians, atheists, libertarians, conservatives, Republicans, some Democrats, and whoever else…basically anyone who pays taxes and is tired of their taxes going up. There are no oaths of allegiance and no bounds of fraternity at all. Simply a group of patriotic Americans who definitely want to chart a new course for the TAXATION POLICY of America. Not the “religious” policy, not the “war” policy, nothing but the TAXATION policy. Again, that’s what the TEA in TEA Party stands for…Taxed Enough Already! Gee whiz!

    Response to #3

    This is the most silly part of the article. The author somehow thinks that “being for the cause of the poor” equals supporting social welfare programs. This exposes the fact that the author is both ignorant of what exactly the social welfare policies of America are, and of the Scripture’s teaching of personal responsibility.

    The Bible nowhere supports the idea of Government social welfare programs…quite the opposite! The Bible teaches this:

    2 Thessalonians 3:10 – For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

    Notice Paul in the context of that said that “we” (the preachers/elders/church leaders) walked by that same tradition of working to earn food. So the Christian ethic then is plain…don’t forsake working yet expecting to eat. So plainly the social welfare construct is not Scripture. Now Christians are commanded to be charitable, and to care for the poor, but this is VOLUNTARY and INDIVIDUAL! Not through Government’s iron fist of coercion and confiscation and redistribution. I think the author’s “Christianity” is closer to that of President Barack Obama’s “pastor,” Rev. Jeremiah Wright, than what was taught by the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the Scripture.

    Response to #4

    Once again exposing ignorance. The poor are NOT denied health care in America! That is a totally false statement. The poor are not even denied health insurance. There are many federal and state programs (Medicare/Medicaid) insuring the poor. It’s the lower middle class who often CHOOSE to not purchase health coverage because it costs more money than they’re willing to spend, and their employers may not offer them coverage. This is most of the estimated 20 Million Americans who don’t have health insurance coverage…and that’s out of 360 MILLION Americans total! So…do the math…ONLY FIVE PERCENT OF THE POPULATION has no health coverage, and most of them CHOOSE not to.

    These are facts, and I deal in facts. So in a Country where 95% of the population are covered with some type of health coverage…that’s a good thing in my book!

    No Christian I know of opposes anyone having health insurance or coverage; we patriotic liberty loving Christians just believe it sets a dangerous precedent by Obamacare for the Government to FORCE us to buy something, calling it a “tax.” By that standard they can technically force you to buy anything…a dangerous precedent indeed. I know the author didn’t comment on Obamacare specifically I just tossed that in.

    Response to #5

    Again, glaring ignorance. While I won’t deny that there are “Spiritual problems” facing our Republic…these “Spiritual problems” came about THROUGH POLITICAL MEANS! It was the Supreme Court who took prayer out of schools. It was various States who allowed the legal marriages of homosexuals. It was the FCC and the Supreme Court that allowed all manner of indecency, pornography, lewdness, and lasciviousness to corrupt the air waves, TV’s, and entertainment, in the name of “protected speech.” It was this erosion of our moral fabric which has contributed to the Spiritual decline of the Nation, and ALL OF THIS EROSION CAME THROUGH POLITICS…THEREFORE CAN BE REVERSED THROUGH OUR POLITICS!!!

    I challenge every reader to forward this to the folks who are forwarding the utter ignorance written by that author. I don’t know which TEA Party he was a part of, but it certainly wasn’t mine!

    Elder Charles A. Johnson III

    A Minister, A Poet, A Son of Liberty

  290. The more this goes on the more people show where their true allegiances are.

    Some even lie and make wildly false accusations to try to justify their allegiances.

    I have noticed for some time how increasingly in many issues clear dividing lines are being drawn separating truth from error. Maybe this is another of those lines.

    Very sadly I’ve seen many here show more allegiance to a politcal idea and what it stands for than towards Jesus and what He stands for.

  291. Cahrles Johnson said: “Spiritual problems” came about THROUGH POLITICAL MEANS”

    Sorry Charles,
    Spiritual decline does not come through politics. It comes thorugh trusting in something other than God – politics being one of those things that people trust instead of Him.

    Plain old Tim with no title or numbers, a slave of Christ; a son of God; I write and paint a little.

  292. you certainly struck a nerve with this topic. Andrew, you of all people know why and where America is headed. We are but a hairs breath a
    way from seeing physical persecution coming to true believers in this country.There are many believers who still are looking for that kingdom of God to manifest on earth just as the early diciples eroneously believed. Peter even swiped the ear off the highpriest guard and was summarily rebuked by the Lord for not knowing what spirit he was in.The tea party today even exist because the church has maintained such aneutral disposition on values relative to the culture.
    Andrew you’ve studied revival and you know that these men were never nuetral about wickedness and corruption as it touched there lives-but the were outspoken on relevant moral matters. I dare say that few would be able today to sit under the ministry of Jonathon Edwards or George Whitfield. These men werenot afraid to kick over sacred cows and confront men in their complacency and comfort.
    Jesus said that his mission was not to bring peace but to bring a sword that would divide even the closest relationships we have.
    Because of the deteriorating times I believe that Christian believers who have an affinity for the tea party values have every right to be counted. At some time we all are going to have to go the record as to what our core beliefs are. We have been given the freedom of expression and we should let our voices be heard while they still can.
    On the matter of the poor,hasent that always been a matter of private charity, so that the right hand would not know what the left hand was doing. The only biblical charity was the storehouse provision for widows and orphans -the truly needy. The message of hope and deliverance to the poor were effective in the long run more than any temporal trinket that he could left behind. In the final analysis – dont side with evil and dont favor the rich

  293. I know of a local prophet who prophesied that there would be great nationalism and patriotism coming to America, and it would be a deception and not to get mixed up in it, but to only keep your eyes on Jesus.
    David Rockefeller is a driving force (behind) our government.. one of the main players in implementing global dominance and one of the Illuminati. He considers himself a republican and says to be president would be a step down for him. They only allow you to think you are winning by giving you a “choice”. If you want real change then go and make disciples of Jesus Christ.

  294. Andrew please respond to my first post (my second one is way shorter). I am curious to see how you will respond. I also had one more thought, just like the false charismatic is so deceptive, what if you see the light in that area and Satan is trying to deceive you about the tea party. As I know you know, the thing about deception is that know one knows they are being deceived when they are being deceived. I know you could respond the same to me, but I am curious if you are open to this possibility. If God confirms it to your heart that the Tea Party is legitimately fulfilling a purpose that will help re-awaken revival and get rid of unrighteous leaders will you be willing to write a letter telling everyone they should support the tea party. Please respond with specifics to my first post. I really want to have a dialogue. Thanks

  295. Rick said:
    “The message of hope and deliverance to the poor were effective in the long run more than any temporal trinket that he could left behind.”

    Very true Rick, but what kind of “message of hope” is being demonstrated in the vocal objections for Christians to health aid being provided to the poor? Are those Christians willing to step in and provide the health assistance themselves and relieve governments of the need to do so?

  296. Andrew Jul 11th 2012

    David, my friend – there has been nothing in these comments that has changed my mind at all. Quite the reverse. They just confirm what I said at the start.

    Bless you!


  297. kathleen Jul 11th 2012

    Tim…like breeds like….the article was ugly and mean-spirited so why are you so upset that most of the comments are. Too little wisdom all the way around and an utter lack of discernment.

  298. Some here seem to operate on the belief that government doing any kind of good is “socialism.” As Onesimus said, their terminology shows their true colors.

    Human government has a legitimate purpose and mandate: those God sets for it. He says in Romans 13 that human rulers are to be a “minister of God to you for good” (and on the other side of the coin, a “minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil”).

    The efforts of human government to help the poor and care for the sick are BOUND to be imperfect, and further flawed by human incompetence, ignorance, and selfishness. They are nonetheless in the spirit of God’s mandate to minister His love and mercy to the poor and the sick.

    Is government’s doing good to “the least of these” an evil Marxist agenda ? It depends on whether we believe Fox News or the Bible.

    In Jesus, Steve

  299. Yomamabird Rhonda Jul 11th 2012

    The Lord opened my eyes. At last someone else see’s it too. you Br. Andrew…are onto the Truth about Politics. It doesn’t matter what Political party one belongs to…they are all…arms of the Beast. Politics is The One World Religion. so deceptive that if possible..it would deceive the very Elect of God. It’s deceived so many…should they wake up to it…they will be as ashamed as I was when He shined His Light on it so brightly…there was no way I could ignore the Truth. I repented. Publicly for all past involvement I had in Politics. I thought I was serving the Lord. We can not serve two masters. Politics is the antithesis of true Christianity. sometimes I feel like my generation…*the Jesus Generation* of the 60’s and 70’s was the last right on Revival of the Holy Spirit leading people to Christ in the real..genuine..Saving Way. So many have sold out their Walks with Christ for a walk with Politics…trampling underfoot the precious Blood shed to save our souls from destruction. Politics is the only Religion that can infiltrate all other *Religions* including Christianity. Pick a country. pick a political party. it doesn’t matter which one. they are all parts of the same hellish Beast driven entity. We can serve the Lord by taking the Great Commission seriously. sharing Christ. the Real Christ with a lost and dying world. Politics is the devil’s successful instrument for infiltrating and corrupting the *church* all over the planet…and especially in the United States. The dark pied piper has corrupted the walks of so many Christians. Pastors included. Pastors leading the charge! Tea Party? Deceived Party? We can not Christianize this world. Jesus is coming back on a set date that only the Father knows. I was a foolish Christian from 1988 until 2009 when the Lord opened my eyes and showed me the ugly truth about the entire political picture over the face of the earth. and right here in our country the USA. I am heart broken to see the division Politics has brought to the collective Body of Christ. Division. Dissension. Discord. I met Jesus in 1972. 18 years old. How did I slide down such a slippery slope into Politics? It was because it crept into the church/ministry I was a part of and corrupted just about all of us. a little leaven..did indeed leaven nearly the whole lump. Trying to minister this truth…that all Politics is anathema…to Christians caught up in it? is as hard as sharing the Salvation message with an unbeliever who is antagonistic toward the Gospel. The few I know who see this Great Deception…are fellow Saints who have terminal illness diagnosis. me included. what a wake up call. My priorities changed immediately. The Lord indeed opened my eyes. Godly sorrow follows the repentance from Politics…and you will find it a wondrous thing…that you could have been so blinded by it’s counterfeit *light*. I share the Good News of the Gospel with unbelievers. I share a serious admonition for Christians to walk away from Politics and get back to serving Christ the way He commissioned us to. Politics is the Religion of the devil himself. The most cruel taskmaster of all is head over Politics. no matter what party you want to claim as your own. I claim Christ Jesus as my own. There are no politics in Christ. only Truth. Thank you Br. Andrew Strom for stepping out in faith to proclaim a very unpopular Truth. Those of us who truly love Him first and foremost…can not continue walking in that deception. I am so thankful He opened my eyes. I am ashamed I wasted the only *time* allotted me for storing up treasure in Heaven by involving myself first with one end…then the middle…and then the other end of the political spectrum. I pray for all of us who repent from this horrible deception…that the Lord will restore to us the years that the canker worm ate. somehow. He is Lord. We need to get back to Jesus and The Great Commission. not entangling ourselves with the affairs of this fallen world. We can not Christianize the world. Jesus will do that Himself. when He touches down on the Mt. of Olives and sets up His Kingdom on earth. for 1000 years of peace. Then? Satan is loosed again for a little while so people can choose once again…whom they will serve. Then? It’s over. New Heavens. New Earth. His Rule and Reign forever. I agree with Andrew Strom. I’ve been writing about this and talking about this very thing for the past 3 years. Who are the ones who have persecuted me harshly for my stand for Truth on this? why Christians within the churches. especially the mega churches. wow. Jesus is coming soon. I can feel it.

  300. kathleen, I’m not upset.

    What I’m seeing here is exactly what I have come to expect to see when Christian’s political biases are challenged.

    I am sad that professing Christians are more devoted to politcal idealism than they are to seeking God’s heart of the matter – something that is not hard to do.

    I see nothing “ugly and mean spirited” in the article, just some very clear truths – but some of the blatant falsehoods and inferences contained in some comments would be beyond belief if I hadn’t already seen the same kind of thing before.

  301. Pastor Steve Reno Jul 11th 2012

    It is a sad thing when someone writes a piece based on slanted material from it appears the liberal media in the USA and other countries.
    I am a conservative [in politics] Christian. I do not support our current wars. I do support our men and women who are fighting in these wars. There IS a difference. I do not believe we, even as Christians, have the right and moral obligations to protect our families and country. You try to make the point of “kingdoms” which is a distortion of what America is about. We are not a kingdom [though Obama would like to make us one.] we are collection of peoples who, using their core Christian beliefs have formed a union which allows us to worship freely. Even the non-christian has freedom to worship as they wish [though I believe as a Christian I need to reach out to those people and bring them to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ].
    It appears you have made a kingdom out of health insurance. Where in scripture does it teach there should be universal health insurance. Isn’t that part of the “kingdom” you say we have created? Doesn’t this seem to support the “king” taking care of ALL it’s citizens health? You can’t have it both ways. I believe in health insurance but I do NOT believe the kingdom has the right to make me pay for someone elses health insurance.
    We have man Swedish friends in our ministry and they wish they could have the kind of government we have. Yes they have decent health insurance but we have BETTER care in the USA. Many, many people from countries with universal health come HERE to America because of our health care. Makes you wonder about those great programs. It requires the “kingdom” taking money away from Christians and non-christians to support the “kingdoms” rule of the health care system.
    America was founded on Christian principles. WHERE in scripture are we told NOT to take our Christian principles into everyday life. Even in to the political arena we are required to take our Christian principles.
    Tea party members are not trying to establish a new “kingdom” here on earth we are only trying to get our country back to the core Christian values we once had.
    To say Tea party members are trying to create a “kingdom” withou Christ at the center is just plane misinformed. That is the point of the tea party…….NO KING! That was what America was founded on.
    Show me in scripture where we are not to be under the authority of our government? We are told to make ourselves of value to our town, our city, our county, our State and our Country. If we don’t take Christian values INTO our government so we have no Christian values. That is what the liberal left wants……..remove Christian values from our country. Then we become just like Europe. Empty churchs! Empty people!
    We have dear friends in Sweden. Sweden has a great beautiful machine that they support. The fund it. The polish it. It is very beautiful but no one knows what to do with it….it is called the State Church. As missionaries we have went into Sweden and introduced people to Jesus Christ. Men who accept Christ, become men again! Women become the godly women God intended. We do NOT advocate a state church.
    Tea party members who are born-again believers want to take back out country from the powers and principalities in high places who have hi-jack our core Christian values.
    We DO NOT want to be like Europe. That is why our for fathers left in the first place. From what I see on BBC and other sources, [pardon my language] Europe sucks! If Europe is so great WHY do Europeans want to immigate to the USA?
    Try to truely learn what conservative Christian belivers want FROM the Tea party. Tea Party is NOT meant to be another political party. The reason Christians are a large part is we want our country back. We want a country that can send thousands of missionaries all over the world. We want a country where our children are free to worship our Creator and God, Jesus Christ!
    Stop believing the liberal anti-christian US media.
    Just my thoughts. I pray you realize that you need to be praying for those of us in the Tea party and not marginalizing us. We do NOT want to me New Zealand or Europe or Japan or anyother country. We want a place where we can sing “God bless America” and not be afraid we MIGHT offend our neighbor [like in Sweden] and we can fly our American Flag and our Christian Flag freely.
    God bless the USA, cause the rest of the world won’t.

  302. truthseeker2 Jul 11th 2012

    Andrew said: “But the point I raised was more that Christians seem to want to FIGHT to keep the poor with less access.”

    Yes, Andrew said it very well and it seems a good note to end this discussion on.

    It’s painfully apparant the majority of people on here completely missed the whole point of Andrew’s article and resorted to personal attacks on him, which were quite pathetic to say the least. (I’m really sure Andrew sits seething in his dark little office coming up with ways to write anti-American articles in retaliation for being denied a visa.) Please!! If you cannot or do not want to see that Andrew has seen a wrong in some who are representing themselves as Christians to the world and has spoken out against it, then I pity you.

    It basically boils down to Andrew’s quote above. It is unchristian and disturbing how vehemently and passionately Tea Partiers are FIGHTING to protect the RICH’S interests, and AGAINST the interests of the poor.

    The argument that this is about ‘freedom and liberty’ and the right to make our own choices is baloney. Jesus never said to fight for our own personal liberty or freedom in this world. He said to take care of the poor and needy. He said the world would hate you and persecute you for righteousness sake. He said we are to be SEPERATE from the world. Do you really believe He would support a system where if you have the money to pay for decent health care you get it and if you are poor you have to struggle to get it, if at all. Its not just in the arena of healthcare either, this whole me, myself and I….MY money, MY house, MY land, breeds a whole dog eat dog mentality. It also forces people into a fearful life of working themselves like a dog feverishly building up their monetary stores so they can take care of themselves, because nobody else is going to help, especially the ‘christian’ sitting next to them in the pew. People get so busy building their own little personal empire that they have no time for the lost and hurting.

    Again, this article was not about politcs. It was about how some professing christians seem standing AGAINST the poor and fighting for the cause of a WORLDLY system, under the guise of a ‘christian’ agenda.

    Someone else said it well: it really is just a reflection of ‘American ‘christianity’ as a whole. I am sure there are many real called out believers in the States who are not a part of this, but on the whole this is just another branch of cultural American ‘christianity’ which sadly has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

  303. Bruce Skelton Jul 11th 2012

    Whoever is in authority over us we should obey, as long as it doesn’t violate God’s laws. Kings, Presidents, or Prime ministers are all there by the Grace of God. If taxes are introduced then we should pay them, whether we like it or not. We are not to oppose the Government, but to pray for them that they may turn to God. The bible says that God will eventually destroy the world’s political system and set up his own.
    We were never told to set up His Kingdom for him, but to preach the Gospel and wait for his appearing, which I believe won’t be long.

    Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    God called Abraham out of the world. Satan calls people in, and to get involved.

    Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

    This land of promise is what we, like our father Abraham, are still waiting for, and we know that we can trust in His promises for we are the seed of Abraham.

    Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

    This is the new Jerusalem which cometh down from God out of Heaven.

    Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

    Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

    Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

    Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

    Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    For we desire a heavenly country and city that is not of this world. This world is built on buying and selling and money, whereas God’s Kingdom is built on giving and receiving. If the church won’t give to the needy, then God will do it through secular Government.
    In Christ,

  304. truthseeker2 Jul 11th 2012

    “If the church won’t give to the needy, then God will do it through secular Government.”

    Yes Bruce, and what a judgment that will be on the Day of the Lord unto some professing christians.

  305. Pastor Steve Reno Jul 11th 2012

    Correction: I DO believe we have the right to protect our family, friends, town, county, State and Nation. The “not” in the above piece was a miss type. Does NOT mean I advocate war, it means as a Christian we are to be meek [which means “controled strength” by the way] but we do have the right to defend ourselves if the need arises. Keep your prayers long and your guns clean. Nehemiah kept his sword clean and his bow ready. He rebuilt the walls while Ezra restored the worship of the Lord. BOTH were used by God. Talk with my special forces Army brother who has been on the battle field……God was there, even if you don’t agree with the wars…..God is there with the Christian men and women. My friend is taking what God taught him there into the his next job……becoming a missionary to people around him in the Army and out of the Army.
    God bless. Pastor Steve Reno of the Christian Crusader Ministry. Taking Christ to the world most of you won’t go because that is what God called me [and us] to do. That even includes the Tea Party. :-)

  306. “but we do have the right to defend ourselves if the need arises. Keep your prayers long and your guns clean.

    And that is exactly how Stephen avoided becoming the first Christian martyr as detailed in the Axe of the Apostles.

  307. I’ve never written in and commented on any articles I’ve read of yours before Mr. Strohm…..i’ve read some i really didn’t agree with – and I’ve felt for awhile now that you just do not understand what’s going on in America….yes, you do know the prophecies you’ve heard about the things that may happen here and some will happen here, and you seem really to want to talk SO much about it, i really get an uneasy feeling anymore when reading your articles…..i just feel maybe you need to concentrate on your own land…..it just seems like i sense you have a judgement or offense towards the USA….maybe you were not as welcome here as you would have liked to have been…..but upon reading your Tea Party article…..i realize it’s more than that…..you said you were conservative…but your comments are like that of people who talk on MSNBC or CNN – if you were conservative, i think you’d at least tune into FOXNEWS – not those left-sided news shows…..your comments sounded just like things i’ve heard those on the left say, so i just can no longer believe you are conservative – and i can no longer be on your list – maybe it’s your desire to filter your left talk this way, get it out across the USA…..kind of like some of the dirty tricks played by the left all the time……find anyway they can to try and get people to vote for the President who has more than anyone, brought down so many things upon the USA…….yes, we are a land with many problems, SIN being at the top, just like most nations – but this President has done nothing to help our situation….he’s hurt it……so i hope you will stay OUT of the political arena in your “articles”……it’s pretty clear what you are trying to do…..and if that wasn’t your goal……you sure have a lot you do not know about what is really going on here……this was the worst article i’ve ever read of yours……very upsetting….

  308. Go to scripture. Ask God for understanding. Allow the Holy Spirit to give that understanding.

    Find out what God is like, what His desires are and what His plans are -and all of the rest will fall into place.

    But while answers are sought from man and man’s agenda takes the place of God’s – these political arguments will continue, as will the idolising of Nations and political parties.

    There is no need to have personal experience of “the American situation” – it is clear for all to see in so many comments on this thread.
    The attitudes expressed by many reveal the “American situation” and the extent of national idolatry among professing believers.

    I repeat:

    Go to scripture. Ask God for understanding. Allow the Holy Spirit to give that understanding.

    Find out what God is like, what His desires are and what His plans are -and all of the rest will fall into place and there will be no room for the idolatry.

  309. Randall Jul 11th 2012


    I think James 3:11 applies to this article.

    Clearly health care is NOT a right granted an individual by the state. As you said, so I follow your example, I challenge you to show me where in the Bible that health care is a “right” granted to all people on the earth. Where is it in the Bible, Andrew? (I am following your example) Let’s post it in this forum.

    I thought that the church would care for its members.

    I am surprised by the attack upon the Tea Party in the words, I was hopeful that Phillipian 4:8 would be used instead.

    Seriously Andrew, I think that the evil one got into your thought life on this one. You need to sit down with some Tea Party Christians and have some more godly input.


  310. I watched a documentary recently in reference to the nuclear attack on Japan at the end of WWll. Sometime previous to that attack there had been a bombing of the industrial sector of Tokyo which comprised about 1/4 of the city. The US had made a night time attack where they dropped some type of fire bombs that set that part of the city on fire and due to the type of buildings that existed, virtually everything went up in smoke. Estimates were that 100,000 people were killed due to this fire bombing, many of them were innocent women and children.

    The documentary then introduces a man who had been a pilot on one of the fire bombers on that mission to Tokyo. He was retelling the conversation he had with his minister after the mission. He told the preacher,”I don’t know how God could let something like this happen”, “I don’t know how God could let me be a part of something so evil” The preacher said, “Some things are just a mystery that only God knows why”

    This is the kind of nonsense that most of christian ministry has perpetrated to the point that hardly anyone has any conviction for the truth of God’s holy word. It’s an absolute disgrace to the cause of Christ. The scripture says that God hates the hands that shed innocent blood. He hates them! If God hates it I would vehemently discourage anyone who fears God to avoid at all costs, any possibility, no matter how remote, that they might participate in such evil deeds. Get away from it. It’s not that complicated. You have to choose to believe God over the reasonings and speculations of men. When we cross that one threshold, that God is true and every man a liar, we are on the path to the truth that sets us free.

    There is one basic admonition for every christian in the NT. They are to do good. “Depart from evil, do good, seek peace” “Abhor what is evil, cling to what is good” I can’t find any other directive but for christians to do good. That’s all! We are only to practice good according to the NT, exclusively. It is called the “good fight of faith”. Christians fight with good not evil.

    Rom 12:21 describes this fight, “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good” This is the good fight of faith…overcoming evil with good. We believe in the final victory of good over evil and we demonstrate our faith by practicing good in the face of evil, if necessary. Not that hard to grasp.

    Now, is war evil? Or is it good? I have heard sermons in church that say that war is a necessary evil. The explanation is something like this, that war, though it is evil, can bring about a greater good. This is human reasoning, not God’s word. Listen to the Bible

    “And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just. Rom 3:8

    Paul condemns any representation that evil is a means to good. God can bring good out of evil, BUT God does not use evil as a method, ever. He condemns it. Our God is good only, exclusively. As we are instructed to be.

    This scripture should be the goal that every christian should seek to emulate.
    “I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men.
    For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God” Acts 20:

    Where are the preachers denouncing killing in the name of patriotism/nationalism for any believer? This is not the message of Christ. This is not the way of Christ. This is not the work of Christ. This is not of Christ!!

  311. Randall said: Clearly health care is NOT a right granted an individual by the state. As you said, so I follow your example, I challenge you to show me where in the Bible that health care is a “right” granted to all people on the earth

    Again a misrepresentation of the issue.

    It is not about whether health care is a right that should be fought for.

    The present government is FOR it and Christians are fighting AGAINST it.
    The government is trying to do something FOR the poor – Christians are arguing against doing that for the poor.

    None of us have ANY rights – including the right to keep more of “our” money for ourselves instead of giving it in taxes.

    IF government demand more taxes – so be it. Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.

    If the government decides to use those taxes for the benefit of the poor, then they are doing more for the poor than the Christians who are content to see them suffer ill health without the hope of assistance.

  312. Ezekiel Rose Jul 11th 2012

    Folks were you aware that 70 per cent of the 9/11 victim’s family members’ questions to the 9/11 Commission were never answered? 9/11 may have been an inside job. Some are convinced. All I ask is how can you be certain it wasn’t when the Commission was a white wash and cover up?

    I recommend the documentary 9/11 Press for Truth.


    It does not speculate that 9/11 was an an inside job it merely reveals suspicious Government activity. There was so much stone walling against the attempts of family members to get the commission set up. Funding was a serious issue. A lot more money was spent on investigating Bill Clinton’s sexual misconduct and the shuttle disaster than was spent investigating the murders of almost 3,000 people and the destruction of billions of dollars worth of property.

    The cause for all this war to date is shrouded in secrecy.

    There once was a man named Major General Smedley Butler who at the time of his life was the most highly decorated Marine ever and when he left the military he started speaking out against war across the country and wrote a small booklet titled War is a Racket.


    And it is a racket. It’s a rich man’s game. We all get sucked into it one way or the other whether we like it or not.

    There was also once a man named Dwight D Eisenhower who warned us about the Military Industrial Complex.


    As Ron Paul has stated there is a big difference between defence spending and military spending. I’m all for a strong defence but Eiesenhower’s adomition about the military industial complex still ring loud and and clear.

    Even if you support war surely you can see that we’re fighting our selves into economic oblivion.

    Just think what we as tax payers could do with all the money blown on these wars.


    The process or result of fusing items into one entity; fusion; amalgamation.

  314. I agree with James. The Tea party is a political movement it just happens to have a lot of Christians in it. And many are luckwarm Christians. I personally do not care to join them because I don’t agree with some things they are doing. I also believe in voting for the closest one nearer to Godly principals and I did not vote for Obamma. This is God’s country that I love and it will continue to be until the Lord says otherwise. Also there are many Christians here in this country who love God who are praying and interceding for this country. There is always a remnant that God uses for such a time as this. There are also many ministries and some churches that are feeding and taking care of the poor.

  315. Ezekiel Rose Jul 11th 2012

    Davo I have to say Bravo to your comment on war! Add Dresden to the horror of the Tokyo fire bombing. Thousands of refugees were bottled up in Dresden but they were fire bombed any way.

  316. Averyl Jul 11th 2012

    The Tea Party debate is of no interest to me, but the responses to Andrew’s post are very revealing. I agree totally with Onesimus’ posts.

    The first Church had all things in common.

    Instead of looking down our noses as the unemployed, why don’t we give them the benefit of the doubt? or some compassion for being “sick”, (like, in the head?)

    As for the American Presidential dilemma, – if the cult member & capitalist is the victor, Obama will be free to accept the position of caliphate in Jerusalem for the United States of Arabs. Now that will give us something to ponder!

  317. Averyl Jul 11th 2012

    Should’ of course, be “at the unemployed”.
    I didn’t realise Kissinger is still alive & actively working behind the scenes until today!

  318. cheryl Jul 11th 2012

    Wow. I don’t have a dog in this hunt, (I don’t vote) so I am amazed at the comments both pro and against the article Andrew has written.

    I think what has many people riled up is the whole “taking care of the poor” issue. I feel qualified to speak about that because I am poor, and have no health insurance.

    I was once concerned enough about a lack of funds that I went to a faith based org. that offered services to poor people. I was informed that my low income status would qualify me for a SNAP card. Food stamps. I didn’t want food stamps, I just needed help getting through a few days. I was given some food, and was so completely humiliated by the experience of being told to go on welfare. The Lord doesn’t want that for His people.

    I just don’t get the whole “government to the rescue” mindset, especially since “mandated healthcare” for EVERYONE, not just the poor, means that taxpayers (rendering unto Caesar) are paying for abortions on demand, and all kinds of other stuff that God hates.

    On the other hand, I don’t get the “gov’t to the rescue” mindset that thinks “if we just choose a godly candidate. everything will be better”. No it won’t. You can’t legislate godliness. People won’t change behaviors just because the gov’t tells them something is wrong. That can only come through being born again.Which is why we need to be preaching the gospel of Christ instead of debating the finer points of anyone’s political views.

  319. Ibelieve Jul 11th 2012

    If you was to post an article about Christians wasting endless hours chasing their “sports idols”, you would probably get the same response here.

    The Church in America is following another Jesus.

    Yesterday I listened to a christian talk show on the radio. They was talking about marriage. In the conversation the minister said; He would tell young people that they should refrain from co-habiting four months before they were married.


    Am I missing something here, its called fornication in the house of God. A little leaven, leavens the whole lump.

    As most of these comments show, people who set in church are following another Jesus is what is taking place here.

    Why no revival?

    Seriously I think they are all involved in politics and patriotism so they can preserve the life they have here in America. Wealth, entertainment, and the pursuit of happiness. They think Obama is a threat who is taking this away, while all along God is bringing His Words to pass.

  320. cheryl Jul 11th 2012

    So…I am confused by this article. I agreed mostly with it. But once the article turned the “wee-est bit” political as in “denying health care to the poor” that’s where I was lost. Is it really the responsibility of Christians to “make sure” that people have access to gov’t sponsored abortions and sex change operations? Or should I ignore that aspect of things?

    I don’t belong in this topsy turvy world, I really don’t. When Christians start arguing about such things.

    It doesn’t matter to me who is President of the US. No matter who is in office, and whether or not they give out “free” health care or not, if human hearts are not regenerated by the blood of Christ, then all is in vain.

  321. myrtletree Jul 11th 2012


  322. myrtletree Jul 11th 2012


  323. cheryl Jul 11th 2012

    @myrtletree What does that have to do with Andrew’s article? Your rant sounds very political as in pro-union. Pray for Wal-Mart and don’t work for them or buy things from them if they disturb you so much.

    @BrotherBob I don’t think Andrew is lying. I hear it all the time from Christians who think abortion is horrible. “I am against abortion, BUT….”

  324. myrtletree Jul 11th 2012

    with respect we need real change not a teaparty. america is going down.

  325. cheryl Jul 11th 2012

    I earn less than $8,000 a year. I have no health insurance and no luxuries.(the internet belongs to the owner of the house I live in) I don’t own a home. Maybe people who are complaining about not having this or that should learn how to do with less. Maybe they should lean less on their own understanding and more on the Lord. People today really don’t know what hard times are.

    The Lord is still God. He is our provider. If I take that to my grave, then so be it.

  326. dagazz Jul 11th 2012

    I am surprised people are so quick to label things as “right’ or ‘left’ rather than weigh whether they are biblical or not. Ultimately I look to see if Christ is being glorified and His kingdom is being built – or not. It’s that simple.
    As for proof that health care is a biblical imperative – clearly yes. We are to comfort, assist and look out for the weak. The system or tithing practiced by Israel [ roughly between 27-34% of what they produced] was used to support the priesthood, the temple and care for the poor,the widows and orphans. It was a lot like the systems people label as ‘socialist’ today. I have found Christians find it easier to label something rather than consider its merits from scripture.
    If some of the people here showed the same passion for Christ and His kingdom as they did politics – America would now be in revival!

    Jer 17:5 Thus said the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD.

  327. Do not know much of this tea party stuff or USA and its imperfections and stuff , do not even understand what much of this article is talking about . But I can see a atleast a comments supporting war and I do not think I misunderstand them . This is quite new , that a christian will support his nation going for war against another nation. I will not be surprise a jew, someone under the Law supporting such , God uses does under the Law for purposes which are not His perfect will, as a mean to lessen the rule of evil. So I am not suprise that nations having soldiers and going for war for all the nations of this age are still operating from the Law realm and they are used in that realm by God to lessen evil. But the one in Christ is of a higher order , he does not operate in that realm , you know the disciples cant understand at first and so they told the Lord to called fire from heaven like elijay to destroy there enemies , the Lord answer “you did not know of what spirit you are of”. It was okay for an eljay under the law but not you, you are called to overcome evil by another higher kind of power which is the spirit of Love. You may still claimed to be born again and a Christian but as long as you are in the law the Lord will keep using you as someone under the Law , and that is why you never see anything wrong with war and where they come from. Some “Christians “ are just use as vessels to be chastisers in different forms of persecution against the children of grace , but a child in grace will never be used for such . Recently read in another forum where someone post something like a notable Christian of old called George whitefield supporting slavery , I never even understand what he was talking about being suck then when and google to see what he mean and find something related to that with names like john newton . I am not sure if that was true that this preachers where involve in slavery because I do not believe in rushing into conclusion by mere reading . But if that was true , it will plainly reveal that this instrument where not in grace but under the Law though used by the Lord for his purposes. The issue is where we are , either in the law or the kingdom of divine grace where purity and Love govern.

  328. sheila Jul 11th 2012

    I would hope most evangelical christians would know the difference between the Spiritual needs of this country, and the natural needs. To many Christians have sat back for to long and let this country get out of control. We do need to Take back the country, bring the Godly morals and values that this country was founded on back. I think you are mixing two different things. I have not met one evangelical Tea party member who represents any of the things you speak about. For the Rich and ignoring the poor, For War. Yes we are always to pray for our government first and for most, but we most also have a voice. The voice you speak of I have not heard and to lump all tea party Christians into it is irresponsible and wrong.

  329. cheryl Jul 11th 2012

    Here we have Christians labeling the gov’t mandated health care as “a tithe unto the Lord”. I suppose you can look at it that way. If you want to deceive yourself. Unbelievable. Come quickly, please Lord Jesus.

  330. Onesimus, a basic question: Is it right for you or me to rob one person, even in order to give his money or goods to someone else?

    My answer is no.

    If you vote for a government that promises to do that, you are committing robbery by proxy.

  331. David Helms Jul 11th 2012

    cheryl Jul 11th 2012

    Here we have Christians labeling the gov’t mandated health care as “a tithe unto the Lord”. I suppose you can look at it that way. If you want to deceive yourself.
    Well said Cheryl.

    Stating that taxes paid to the Government is “a tithe unto the Lord” is equating Government with God. The sad thing is that to many people… this is true.

    Another interesting observation is that a “tithe” represents a 10% donation of earnings to the Lord, while government in the above mentioned post forces you to pay 27%-34%. Approximately 3 times what God asks for the church.

  332. It has been born believers who have looked after the poor for many centuries in the United Kingdom when kings, queens, and gentry have been looking after themselves.
    It was believers that introduced orphanages otherwise kids would have continued to roam and scavenge to keep alive with many children hanged for minor offences such as stealing a hankerchief.
    While the rich got richer the poor were sustained to brutal living and working conditions.
    It was believers that formed the Labour Party to changed the course of political thinking and christians were behind welfare reform which came about in the late 1940s.
    The rich in the 21st century now wish change welfare going back to days of old.
    They use the legal system for tax evasion. While folk have to bear the brunt of austerity measures they live luxurious lifestyles and put their wealth in tax havens. They keep their millions in bonuses and want more and more to keep up with the Jones who are doing the same.
    Bankers and politicians do likewise voting themselves to keep the status quo.
    And we are seeing how false teachers and false prophets are fleecing the flock under the prosperity teaching and those within the Word of Faith Movement are laughing all the way to the bank by hoodwinking gullible christians who want to become wealthy and prosperous.
    Well, I have news for one and all who think that all of this will go away and say that it is no concern of them.
    And as I believe that we are living in the End Times, it is going to get worse rather than better.
    And I wwould end by saying that the christian church is not only being shaken but its members are being scattered everywhere.
    Seek ye the Lord while you are able and call the christian church and every nation to REPENTANCE.
    The world leader and the false prophet will be revealed soon.
    I am looking forward to be taken HOME to be with the Lord. In the meantime am GOING YE and sharing the Good News amongst people because He is COMING SOON.
    Care to join me with His COMMISSION!

  333. Andrew, I love your expose’s on Charasmania and believe you have good insights, but in this area I think you fail to understand the spiritual concepts (many modeled after Biblical precepts) & blessing of God instilled in the U.S. Constitution whereby the American people have been more FREE than almost any other country in “His”tory. I don’t identify as being a TParty person because many do not know Christ or espouse faith and proLife values so I agree Christians should NOT be obsessed with political focus. Regardless the idea of government health care is one of many that have bankrupted European countries and brought forth an obvious IDOLATRY – for people to depend on the government for health. I’m shocked you would take that stance that American Christians are denying others FAITH in government to SAVE them from sickness and financial problems! Don’t expect other godless rich people to pay for your hospitalization. There’s no FAITH in that.

  334. Graham P Jul 11th 2012

    You missed out something Colin.
    It was christians who influenced the trade unions. Remember what happened to the Toll Puddle Martyrs. For those who are uninformed about these folk please read the history of what happened to them.
    The modern western christian church of today is far from the New Testament Church.
    The leadership of the western church has become the Blind leading the blind, and will do anything to chase signs and wonders, alter biblical doctrine to suits themselves, and play hide and seek when the “tough gets going.”
    I am surrounded by the established church who is afraid to step out in faith, share publically the Gospel message, do not want to influence change, and run away when the political correct brigade knocks on the door for them to answer questions.
    This reminds me of the post modern (christian) tea party of the 21st century which plays around with religion when it suits them, pampour to those with money, use tactics when their wealth is at risk, and say that America does not need a welfare syatem based on the UK in the 1940s. Instead, create a divide and rule philosophy, produce fear within the population, and spread panic measures within the christian church to get their own way.
    Their choice is coming in the presidential race to the White House In November having to choose Romney or Obama who shows signs of being religious but who have no personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ – the lesser of two evils but equally the same!

  335. I am convinced that Andrew is no differant than the Charismatic charlatans he rails against. They put forth the man of sin as God. In other words…they ignore truth to create a reality of their own choosing. Instead of humbly listening to others in the body of Christ they arrogantly procalaim their version of reality as “from God”. (The man of sin sitting in the place of God putting himself forth as God)

    While there is truth in what he says, Andrew also clearly speaks things in this article that are blatant falsehoods. He arrogantly seeks to pick a fight…and this is God??? I think not. Andrew does not have in mind the things of God but the things of man.

    He is a false prophet cut from the same cloth as those in the false prophetic movement.

  336. I agree with Andrew only on his point that only God, not the Tea Party, can solve America’s problems, and that it is a deception and an idolatry to think otherwise. However, and there are four “howevers”.

    One: The Tea Party, like ice cream, is neither “Christian” nor “non-Christian”. It is comprized of different people. It is just wrong to tar them all with the same brush in the same way that it is wrong to over-generalize to treat any group, including a group of Christians, as if they are all the same as its worst members.

    Two: being “not of” this world does not mean being “not in” this world. Christians have the liberty to work with social organizations and political parties, which are not intrinisically bad. It is up to the conscience of the individual believer and not for a single person to state what is right or wrong for all.

    Three: God can, if He wants, choose to work through human agencies and organizations, like the Tea Party. And, I hope He does! However, it will be surely in a way that shows GOD is God and not the Tea Party.

    Four: Andrew comes from NZ, which like the UK, where I come from, has more of a humanistic mindset. In fact humanism has infected the Church in general. Andrew presumes that the state should provide universal healthcare, Although this is a humane view, it is not biblical. My reading of the Bible tells me that God gives us obligations not rights. There is no right to free healthcare and education, etc – only obligations that the rich will help the poor and that parents will raise their children in a godly way, etc. God is Love but He is not a humanist, and He may requires much more of us than we may realise (and I don’t mean tithing).

  337. jmlanca Jul 11th 2012

    The Preamble to the Declaration of Independence
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
    Over the past 40-50 years, we in America have been “more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”

    However, we are also entering a time of “a long train of abuses and usurpations”, and many see it as their “right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

    The Tea Party is engaging the corrupt political machine in the United States at the grass roots level to legally take over local, state, and federal offices. This is the peaceful revolution intended to “throw off such government”, and is a way of life for many here in the America. This is our country, which we love greatly.

    We realize that it is not perfect. There are extreme members of any group, and we cannot condone those who you are referring too in your post. Those are clearly in the minority. Many of our political leaders are corrupt, and many churches are dead. But not all. There are still many God fearing Christians that are committed to restoring our freedoms. There are many people around our great land gathering regularly in small groups crying out in repentance and for revival. Many are working every spare moment to try and stamp out the awful practice of abortion in our land. Many are working tirelessly to restore moral decency in our land. Many are working night and day to reach out to the poor, widows, orphans, and less fortunate. We may not get every step along the way correct, but we will continue to fight for freedom, not just for Christians alone, but for all of mankind.

  338. Having read the many comments the conclusion which is being revealed to me is that the western church has gone beyond the crossroads and continues on the narrow road going further way from Almighty God.
    If the USA, as a christian nation, with its policitians and spiritual leaders cannot agree to call the nation and the christian church to repentance, then what is being sown it shall be reaped.
    One can quote biblical truth but if biblical truth is not heeded and God Almighty and His instructions are ignored and pushed aside, what ever “tea party” is had with its trimmings and flavour, our Heavenly Father will respond by remaining silent how much christians try to conjure up the Holy Spirit claiming Him to be at work.
    For man will do anything now in using the name of Jesus for all sorts of purposes.
    It will not work until man repents before Him and man confesses that man has made a blunder of things and doing things in his own strength.
    Simple! Or is that too complicated to understand and grasp!

  339. Brother Rob Jul 11th 2012

    Dear Glenp,

    You’re statement “I am convinced that Andrew is no differant than the Charismatic charlatans he rails against. They put forth the man of sin as God. In other words…they ignore truth to create a reality of their own choosing. Instead of humbly listening to others in the body of Christ they arrogantly proclaim their version of reality as “from God”. (The man of sin sitting in the place of God putting himself forth as God)

    Andrew also clearly speaks things in this article that are blatant falsehoods. He arrogantly seeks to pick a fight…and this is God??? I think not. Andrew does not have in mind the things of God but the things of man.

    He is a false prophet cut from the same cloth as those in the false prophetic movement.”

    Sadly I must agree with you that Andrew has departed from the faith with this ungodly article and is proud about it.

    Wonder how long until Andrew deletes your post–as he has done with several others. Andrew’s deleting posts of those who tell the truth reminds me of the murderers covering their ears as they charged Saint Stephen in Acts 7:57 “But they raised a great shout and put their hands over their ears and rushed together upon him.”

  340. I would agree that the religious world has crossed the steps of no return.
    I look towards Christ Himself and no other person I wish to follow.
    The western church does not provide for me and has failed to inspire me. The reality has been it has failed to encourage me with my walk with Jesus.
    Even the so called christian tea party has become a law unto itself and is taking christianity further away going into the realms of religious ideals and practices.
    It is not godly and is man made.
    You can keep religion and quote biblical verses at each other which reminds me of a tennis match between religious people.
    There is only one match winner that is Christ Himself. For He has clearly won it outright, game,set, and match.
    Who out there will encourage me other than the Lord Jesus. The response has been deafening so far.

  341. Brother Victor Jul 11th 2012

    Without Andrew setting up this web site, I would not have been able to contribute and make my comments.
    Whether they have been acceptable that is upto those responding.
    One thing for sure I have not been invited to the christian tea party that has spread across America.
    I wonder why, when I beg to differ?
    Perhaps it has become a mad hatters tea party when anything now goes to get attention.
    There are the poor that needs help with welfare and to say otherwise shows how the rich gave become greedier and are in self denial.
    You can keep the WoF false preachers as all they care is becoming richer at the expense of their followers and building their empires, and note what is missing – housing those who have lost their homes, homeless with no roof under their heads, and of course how to deal with poverty. Greed is their name and greed is there nature!
    And for those who keep telling me things are going to get better if christian leaders led the nation of America? Am I missing something when those within and control the church system cannot agree with one another on the simple gospel message but add their own interpretation in their teaching.
    They must having a tea party with a difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  342. Andrew a false prophet?? It would be laughable if it wasn’t so absurd. Andrew is false because he says get out of politics but you’ve got the likes of John Hagee, eyeball deep in politics, calling for the bombing of Iran.

    Let that sink in… A preacher of the gospel, feet shod with the gospel of peace, calling for our nation to bomb another nation. THAT is a wolf in sheeps clothing. That is a false prophet my friends. Can’t you see???

  343. Brother Rob Jul 11th 2012

    These six things the Lord hates, seven are an abomination to Him…
    he who sows discord among his brethren.
    Proverbs 6:17, 19b

  344. Hi Andrew,
    I don’t mean any disrespect at all but I really don’t agree with you on this. Jesus wants us as individuals to help the poor, not government. Do we put our faith in government or Jesus Christ. The sermon on the mount is for individuals, Jesus’s disciples.

    As for war… I don’t see your point at all. David was a man of War and a man after God’s own heart. There was a time where our country came to war against itself to free slaves. Was that wrong?

    Health Care is an option and should not be paid for by our taxes. and if the Church was were it needed to be, then we would be healing the Sick. This article is putting too much faith in government and not relying on our Lord and Savior.
    And not wanting to be political you say, but this article was very political. I have most of your books and completely agree with you on a spiritual level but not on these points.
    God Bless,

  345. Bonnie P Jul 12th 2012

    Dear Andrew,

    Your comments are truly very troubling. Your years of travel and ministry have made you unable to understand the complexities of the US and the simplicity of millions of communities (villages) in America who love God, are serving the poor, the hungry, the widow, ministering at any moment at the grocery store or gas station when prompted by the Holy Spirit. No organization on earth is pure or perfect where people are a part of it.

    Jesus is the One and Only! We work as if He were coming with the twilight though we know that He has been with us throughout every moment of a difficult day. Each beautiful sunset that I am allowed to witness reminds me of that fact. He is coming back.

    There is much wrong with America and our world but I do get weary of the criticism from non-Christians and Christians alike; most often coming from those standing on the sidelines critiquing the runners and carefully listing the stupid way they run – some limp, some are slow, many are unlovely and need more training. But, we keep on running amid the jeers.

    “Peter walked on water to go to Jesus, but he followed him far off on the land. We do not need the grace of God to stand crises, human nature and pride are sufficient, we can face the strain magnificently; but it does require the supernatural grace of God to live twenty-four hours in every day as a saint, to go through drudgery as a disciple, to live an ordinary, unobserved, ignored existence as a disciple of Jesus. It is inbred in us that we have to do exceptional things for God; but we do not. We have to be exceptional in the ordinary things, to be holy in mean streets, among mean people and this is not learned in five minutes.” O.Chambers

    Allowing the government to control our health is out of the question. Look at our schools for proof. Socialism in this country will only allow for more corruption in our government and a weaker and more dependent people.

    Those of us who work already from sun-up until sun-down have no more money to give to the IRS. Where do you propose to get the money for such a massive government program with many more government workers who can greedily take all the pay raises that they want?

    I believe the silent majority has risen up in the form of organizations like the Tea Party, with all its’ flaws. Your view from afar and the reading of your emails consists of your community alone. Giving the US government more of my money to give to whomever they choose would be a monumental mistake, since they usually have no idea who is getting the money they demand of us once the leaders have taken all that they want. You are deceived to believe that it will go to the neediest and most poor among us!!

    There is no easy answer in these last days other than Jesus, who promises to provide all of our needs if we are not too proud to take what He offers.

    I, my family, friends and yes even my church pray daily for President Obama and the many, many government leaders now placed over us many of the “Czars” by him. My Word does not allow me to curse them with names.

    Yes, I do believe He is coming soon and we of the older generation are doing our best to honor God in this place that He has given us.

    I appreciate your desire to alert the world of the great failing of the church, which I have read in Revelation many times.

    Many are listening to you. God is listening to you. Are you able to settle into a boring village, unknown, serving your lost relative?

    Or maybe a simple vacation away with God would help? I am sure that you deserve it.

    Thanks, BonnieP

  346. Ezekiel Rose, I will look that up, thanks

  347. Jeni sorry about this but this concept of Christians supporting war is very new to me and hard to even read. God sometimes allow natural wars to have his purposes but by natural men under the Law.He uses war majorly in the old testerment because his people where not equipped enough to deal with the real roots of evil which are demonic activities. But when Chris Came He bring forth a new generation who are quipped enough to deal with this principalities and powers. Many professing Christians who think they are in Grace honestly are still in the Law that is why they are still being used in the Law. War in itself is evil but God may allow it if it can lessen evil but through the instrumentality of natural men under the Law. The reason why we have War is because of men under the Law , so God uses those men for such purposes. If all men are in the Grace in Christ ,there will be no war , but since all men are not , war can be allow by God if they can lessen evil but through natural men under the law.Those in Christ born from above are use in the spiritual war against strong hold and are commanded never to fight flesh and blood. In Christ we deal with the most excellent way , which are the root , not just the good or just cutting the stem.

  348. Steven Grant Jul 12th 2012

    I write this as a Christian that has read your articles in the past and has appreciated many of your insights. But you are wrong on this one, just as many of the evangelists of the Revolutionary War era were wrong in trying to hold England and the colonies together. God’s hand was in that separation, and it’s in the tea party movement today.
    I have friends in the tea party movement that are staunch Christians. Not everyone is in that camp, but many are. Their reasons for liberty are founded in the Bible, just as they were in the 1700’s, when the cry over America was “No king but King Jesus.” This was not unhealthy nationalism, but a return to the roots of Israel, the heritage of the fathers of this nation. The Mayflower Compact of 1620 was the first governmental document of this continent. It specified that there was to be a colony founded for the propagation of the Christian faith. Out of that document came a nation. That nation is America, and it has had Christ at its roots ever since. The origins of the Christian flag actually came from the colors and symbols of the U.S. Flag. You haven’t done your homework, and it shows in your reasoning.
    Your anti-war stance is also in error. Many tea party patriots are actually against many of the incursions around the world today, but like Jesus Christ Himself they support the military and the troops. Jesus never told the Roman centurion to lay down his arms. He commended him for his faith. Christ told His disciples to buy swords, Roman broadswords to be used for self-defense. John the baptist did not tell the soldiers to become pacifists, nor did Peter when the Holy Ghost was poured out in the house of a Roman Centurion, a tough, Roman soldier. You have listened to U.S. commentators and the globalist mantra instead of listening to the truth.
    Third, Jesus did not side with the poor alone. He came to Zacchaeus, a rich man. He was buried in a rich man’s tomb (Joseph of Arimithea). He rebuked His own disciple, Judas, when he wanted to redistribute wealth by taking from those that had money and expensive things, and forcibly give it to the poor. Big Business may be greedy, but the roots of free markets exist because of Christianity in commerce. The same businesses that have been “greedy” have also been extremely generous in donating to charitable societies and even churches and ministries through the years. The roots of free-markets are found in Christianity. Adam Smith, author of “Wealth of Nations” was not an economist, but a Christian philosopher that debated the likes of Voltaire and others regarding the ways that Christianity influences commerce, trade and economics. These are the roots you are attacking. Yes, business is corrupt, but don’t throw it all away simply because you are angry over sin in a realm. You don’t destroy Christian individuals, but seek to redeem them. You need to do the same for business.
    Your comments about health care are based on your heritage that stems from a socialist country, New Zealand. Socialism is NOT Christian. Neither is socialism in Christianity. Every time Christ mentioned giving to the poor (whether it was food, health care, etc.) it was under the context of free will. It was not by compulsion. You can’t have it both ways, Andrew. You say earlier that the patriotism-Christianity argument is without merit, and yet you want the U.S. government to provide Christian charitable services? That’s pure garbage. By the way, there is nowhere in the Bible that states we should have health care as a right outside of Jesus Christ. God has a health care plan that includes health and healing for all. Research it.
    Finally, you are absolutely wrong when you state that a political movement is wrong. You are right when you state the roots are spiritual, but you are completely wrong when you think that this spiritual revolution should be capped and withheld from government. The answers are not in Washington, D.C., but it’s up to politically minded, governmental people to take them there. This is the cry of many in the tea parties, the 9.12 groups, and even many independents and libertarians. They aren’t deceived. They got their ideas about liberty, self-government, the roots of the separation of our governmental powers and other concepts from the very Bible you read and don’t understand when it comes to these areas.
    If you think anger toward sin at the national level is wrong, then you need to examine your own heart and your own writings. You have written with holy boldness to expose sin in the church, among leaders and pastors, and even in individuals and families. But you won’t tolerate that when it comes to issues regarding government? That’s hypocrisy. Jesus called the Pharisees and Sanhedrin snakes, tombs filled with dead men’s bones and other names. They were the Jewish government of the day. He called Herod, the Roman governor a “fox,” which was a downright insult. The same God that loves and anoints government also commissions people like Jehu to go and slay Ahab and Jezebel. God hates evil and doesn’t mince words. We shouldn’t either.
    Andrew, I know you love the Lord and are sincere, but in this field you are sincerely wrong. The whole counsel of God is inserting itself into government once again. The tea parties and others are a part of this role and many patriots and God-fearing people are catching on to what God is doing. Don’t miss out.
    I would suggest you get ahold of a couple of books related to this revolution. One is “In Defense of a Nation” by Stan Grant. The other is “America In The Bible” by Steven Grant (yes, that’s me). God bless you. Steven Grant

  349. Regarding denying healthcare to poor people, I am not against healthcare for them, but being forced to pay for gov’t programs that give me no say on treatment, having a panel that decides if and what kind of care I can have, and the fraud, corruption, and waste that anything govt does is rampant, why not make insurance companies accountable for paying what they are supposed to, and not penalizing people who have health conditions? I went thru a personal experience with an ins. co. some years ago, and actually had to hire an atty to get them to pay my bill, which wasnt that much. They trumped up medical conditions that I didn’t even have , that on medical records said “possible”. We are losing more and more freedoms, and paying more and more premiums for medicare, that great, wonderful program that also promised much by LBJ, and is a nightmare for most in the medical professions. Also, the church should be helping their own members, maybe others, and are not.

  350. From Tim: “I am sad that professing Christians are more devoted to politcal idealism than they are to seeking God’s heart of the matter – something that is not hard to do.”
    It seems that you (and Andrew Strom) are passing judgment, erroneously, on what you know little about. Who says any of these “Tea Party” supporters are more devoted to political idealism than they are to seeking God’s heart of the matter? You? You are wrong. No matter how many times you say it. I don’t really care if someone has Brother or Pastor or Prophet in front of their names – they still do not get it all right all the time, and if they think they can do or say no wrong, they are sadly mistaken. God judges my heart and no man. If a Christian of any kind, and especially one with a gift ministry of prophet, inks they have something that needs to be said to the Church, it needs to be said in a loving way, not in a smug, condescending, and self-righteous way. And be willing to discuss it and not stand back with folded arms and refusal to engage.

  351. I’ve been watching the post and Andrew you are very quite. Are you changing your mind? I’ll try one more time:
    I think I would ask myself who better to rule, a tyrant who dispises the things of God or a Christian who understands that as a governor he is ultimately under God’s government and civil government is limited in its jurisdictional authority and power?
    That God is vitally concerned with political affairs is quite easy to demonstrate: It is God who ordained governments in the first place (Rom. 13:1; Rom. 2:21). He is the One who establishes particular kings (Prov. 16:12; Psa. 119:46,47; 82:1,2). Therefore, He commands our obedience to rulers (Rom 13: 1-3). Rulers are commanded to rule on His terms (Psa. 2:10 Off.). Even in the New Testament activity of political import is discoverable, Jesus urged payment of taxes to de facto governments (Matt. 22:15-22). In response to reminders of King Herod’s political threats against Him, Jesus publicly rebuked the king by calling him a vixen (Luke 13;32). He taught that a judge is unjust if he does not fear God (Luke 18:2,6). John the Baptist openly criticized King Herod (Luke 3:19,20). Peter refused to obey authorities who commanded him to cease preaching (Acts 5:29). The Apostle John referred to the Roman Empire as “the beast” (Rev. 13).
    Politics, then is people acting and making decisions about civil relationships based upon a set of first principles that have a religious foundation. To deny that this area of decision-making is to be affected by religion is to deny the lordship of Jesus Christ over a particular area of life. The Bible and the historical record of the church show that religion and politics have had a healthy relationship.
    Have you become a judge of the people, declaring that they want the government to their God? Do you dare to say you know what’s in the hearts of God’s people?
    Be careful.

  352. Andrew’s remarks were from a spiritual viewpoint, meant to be taken spiritually, and should be evaluated spiritually. The criticism of his remarks has instead been largely personal, political and nationalistic: all of which are unworthy criteria for those who have the mind of Christ (I Corinthians 2:16).

    We’d all agree America (and not America only) needs healing and revival. And God’s told us He WILL heal our land…if we humble ourselves, seek Him, and turn from our wicked ways. (II Chronicles 7:14)

    Andrew does us the favor of pointing out “wicked ways” we may be blind to. And while the “Tea Party” is a convenient example of a group operating in many of those sins, I don’t understand him to be saying those sins are found ONLY in the “Tea Party” and its sympathizers. We are all susceptible to the ungodly mind and wicked ways that bring our country under God’s judgement:

    SELF (-assertion)
    SELF (-justification)
    SELF (-righteousness)
    SELF (-reliance)
    SELF (-satisfaction)

    The “Tea Party” may embody more of those sins than other human organizations, but clearly the question is much broader. We who love our country (the definition of “patriotic”) and want God’s blessing and guidance for America, should do what He says: humble ourselves, and turn from our wicked ways.

    Surely none who love our country would seek to JUSTIFY America in those sins, or shout down scriptural warning that those sins bring God’s judgement and destruction. Those are the ways, rather, of false patriotism.

    In Jesus, Steve

  353. Cheryl – I agree wholeheartedly with your posts (at least the 4 or so I read)!

    Andrew – Please take the postings on here seriously. I know many are attacking you, but please look beyond what you might believe as utter falsehood and pick out the truth in even these posts.

    It would do me an enormous amount of good to see you face some of these attacks with godliness and dignity instead of either ignoring them by not responding or answering short, snippy answers to them.

    You have started this riled up discussion, and, in fact, appeared to be looking for a fight. Many on here look to you for leadership, and it’s quite disheartening to find none.

    Is your mind totally unchangeable in this matter, no matter how slight?

    Is there no need to clarify further some of your stances based on love and compassion for the brethren?

    I dare say most on here are not looking to fight with you or anyone else.

    I am concerned as well as quite a few on here have mentioned. While I agree wholeheartedly that American “Christians” are way too political, and it is an idol that many of them don’t see.

    But we are all in different places. Perhaps many will be persuaded within a year’s time based on seeds sown here. Or perhaps they will never change due to what goes on here.

    Can some be persuaded with caring, loving instruction? Will sarcasm do more harm than good? If someone is sarcastic with you, should you be sarcastic in return?

    You’re telling us how important it is to care for the poor (and, indeed, it is very important). However, who is poor among this forum? Is providing healthcare and food to the poor the only means of caring for them?

    Who are children on here (babes in Christ)? Who are hurting? Perhaps many are lashing out because they are resisting change and need some extra compassion.


  354. Andrew wrote, “The best trick on the devil’s agenda would be-To make the Antichrist a “REPUBLICAN”. And thus suck in all the Christians.Could it happen? -Of course!”

    How about the devil making the anti-Christ a Christian?
    I’m not saying Barack Hussein Obama is the anti-Christ —-but it could happen, right?

  355. teresa Jul 12th 2012

    Dear Andrew, I support your note about the tea party.
    I wrote a blog that had similar points titled, “The Lesser of Two Evils is Evil!”
    I do though want to point out that the church gave up a great deal of her influence when she gave up her job of ministry to the poor to the government.
    Deacons of course were established to feed the widows and orphans.
    So sad to me that churches have worried about remodeling and building expansion, instead of reaching out to the poor in their own community.
    The media on both sides often are used by derisive and divisive spirits. Getting people worked up on both sides and wanting to fight.
    I did not ever read where Jesus gathered His followers together to canvas with flyers, or giving moneys to political canididates.
    If we did put this same energy and money into evangelizing our comunities then we would see what the apostles did, and the officials would say of true christians that they turn the world upside down.
    Acts :17
    5 But the Jews who were not persuaded, becoming envious,[a] took some of the evil men from the marketplace, and gathering a mob, set all the city in an uproar and attacked the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. 6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some brethren to the rulers of the city, crying out, “These who have turned the world upside down have come here too. 7 Jason has harbored them, and these are all acting contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king—Jesus.
    I am grieved for America that people would fall for a legalistic works in producing a deliverer for America, instead of Joel 1 and 2.
    In all of judges God would raise up leadership for the people when they turned back to Him with their whole heart.
    We truly need to keep our focus on Jesus, and being sensitive to His Spirit to lead us.
    This false since of power to change America through electing a mortal man is also in part has to do with kingdom now theology.
    I promise the anti christ will seem so caring, loving and charismatic, and if we are looking for a mortal leader with a replacement savior like mentality who you believe will change America for the good, then you will be deceived by that son of perdition, the anti christ.
    A house divided will not stand. Jesus and humbling ourselves before Him and repenting should be our focus, and will unify true followers of Christ.

  356. LOL, that’s funny Sarah. As if all Christians are Republicans. No they are not. And the “Tea Party”, which is only a loosely-assembled, occasionally active grassroots group- is made up of atheists and agnostics as well as Christians – independents, conservatives, and not necessarily all Republicans. It’s not a “party” which you “join” or have “members.” It’s got nothing to do with whether you are Christian or not or what kind you are. Many here don’t even get that. It’s in general a civic association, what is wrong with that?????

  357. teresa Jul 12th 2012

    About the anti christ being republican! Lol, I talked to my dad yesterday and he mentioned the anti christ would probably be more like Joel Olsteen’s
    Mild mannered character.
    Which Romney fits.

  358. greg geddings Jul 12th 2012

    The War Prayer by Mark Twain:
    It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety’s sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

    Sunday morning came — next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams — visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation

    *God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!*
    Then came the “long” prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory —

    An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher’s side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, “Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!”

    The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside — which the startled minister did — and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

    “I come from the Throne — bearing a message from Almighty God!” The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. “He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import — that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of — except he pause and think.

    “God’s servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two — one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this — keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor’s crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

    “You have heard your servant’s prayer — the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it — that part which the pastor — and also you in your hearts — fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: ‘Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!’ That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory–*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

    “O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle — be Thou near them! With them — in spirit — we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it — for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

    (*After a pause.*) “Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!”

    It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

  359. 4TruthinHeart Jul 12th 2012

    Brother Strom, pertaining to your article…AMEN. A definite witness of the Spirit. The same exact things have been on my heart for a number of years. Patriotism and Nationalism for even longer. I am concerned over a number of posts declaring you bringing division. Unfortunately, that is what truth always brings, a dividing line…to choose God’s way or not. There is no in between. God does not want God and country…He wants Him alone! If we Christians were truly who we are called to be then we truly would be the best “patriots” for whatever country we lived in. One who is truly in touch with God does not need to “be in touch” with whatever issue is at hand. God reveals His truth to those that have ears to hear and when they are spoken they truly become troublesome to those who only want their “ears tickled.” Thank you for your labors and do not grow weary while doing good!

  360. greg geddings Jul 12th 2012

    To the gentleman who keeps saying that the Bible says nothing about health care for all, I would point out that this is a 20th Century concept that was not in the public conscience in the first few centuries after Christ. To say that because the Bible does not mention healthcare therefore the idea is unbiblical is a stretch of logical reasoning.

    The Bible does not mention jets, cars, rubber tires, bicycles, telephones, and Interstate Highways either. You won’t find any passages related to tanks, submarines, field artillery, hand grenades, machine guns, nuclear weapons, napalm…and on and on…

    The Bible does not mention any of the above so, using your logic, they must be as unbiblical as guaranteed, worry-free health care.

  361. teresa Jul 12th 2012

    I’d rather not have anyone change the healthcare that we already purchase, I would love to see my doctor that I have chosen.
    Personally, I would have preferred they upgraded medicare, and medical for those who needed it.
    But, we as believers need to do more for are poor, mowing the widows lawn down the road, buying groceries, visiting and loving them, embracing them as our own.

  362. Gaye said
    I’ve been watching the post and Andrew you are very quite. Are you changing your mind? I’ll try one more time:

    Sally said
    It would do me an enormous amount of good to see you face some of these attacks with godliness and dignity instead of either ignoring them by not responding or answering short, snippy answers to them.

    Ladies Andrew will be in bed at the moment and i am sure he will respond in his morning time :)

  363. teresa Jul 12th 2012

    I really think there lies about this healthcare plan in both political parties, that will be found out sooner or later.
    That is one good reason to keep our minds focused on Jesus.

  364. Averyl Jul 12th 2012

    To you patriotic Americans,perhaps we ignorant Kiwi’s have it wrong by questioning the treatment of your indigenous people & importation of Africans as well.

    Sometimes I think we need to read the gospels again, – about camels & eyes of needles, the good Samaritan, stories about Pharisees thanking God they’re not as other men such as his sinful neighbour who asks God for mercy, sharing.
    The suggestion that a man with 2 coats should give one to a man with none, (50%); the widow’s mite,(100%); the boys with their loaves & fishes,(100%).
    Even Mother Theresa treated the poor as unto the Lord.
    It’s about time we took personal responsibility for reflecting the love of God to those in need, or is that too simplistic?

  365. David Helms Jul 12th 2012

    To Averyl…

    Once again, God is being confused with government. Your percentages refer to what individuals in the Bible have voluntarily given to God, not what the government has demanded from its citizens. If we give 100% to the government, there will be nothing left for God.

    I wish people would stop equating government with God. I do not worship my government.

  366. Margaret Jul 12th 2012

    Living in the UK, I have never understood the Right Wing’s opposition to have health care for everyone, regardless of finance. It breaks my heart to read stories of Americans putting up with awful dental pain and other more serious conditions because they simply can’t afford to pay for treatment. People are dying because of this callous attitude towards the poorer members of society. Yet, isn’t it true that the majority of evangelical Christians in the US are Right-Wing? It doesn’t make sense to me at all. I’m not a socialist, but I truly believe that a Christian society should provide equal care for all its members and no-one should be left to suffer or die. I know our free Health Care in the UK is by no means perfect but no one is turned away and this is very important if we are to retain our Christian roots. The heart of Christianity is to reach out and serve the poor, sick and needy. Not to do so, is a denial of all that Christ asks of us.

  367. Craig Doriot Jul 12th 2012

    Andrew: Aside from our role as sons of God, what political party should an American Christian be most aligned with?

    Pretty much every American defines themselves not just in terms of Christianity, but what party than best represents that Christianity, as we are taught that we choose our leaders, and so that party will be influencing the laws that govern us. It is because of this that I once supported the Republican Party, who most nearly represented Christian values, before recognizing they were increasingly anti-Christian. Clearly the Democratic party is blantantly anti-Christian.

    With the increased antagonism towards Christianity by both parties and increased exposure of the government’s wickedness through the free flow of information on the internet, the Tea Party grew as a quasi-Republican organization that more closely aligned to evangelical Christian viewpoints, in general. For this reason, I myself attended a couple of rallies and felt good things about it, as a whole. Its primary purpose really is not as a legit challenge to the 2-party system, but to draw attention to the irresponsibility of our govt. Ron Paul really pushed the movement forward, and he is very anti-war and in favor of fiscal responsibility and independence.. definitely something that is a positive for Christians.

    At the same time, I see a sweeping wave of Christian nationalism. I have walked into churches decked out with flags and playing patriotic videos and wondered what the heck was going on. A lot of vets getting teary-eyed and all of that. Not a good thing. This party did not seem to arise from the New World Order elites, though they are now putting their people in place to take it over. This is unfortunate that we Americans look to the historical strength of this “great” nation as the solution for oppression and lawlessness, instead of looking to God. It’s pandemic, however, and in no way related to the Tea Party, itself. In fact, I strongly believe that the Tea Party is the safest refuge “politically” for any Christian, but even this party has been seriously compromised.

    To the Christian Nationalists who keep going on about the “Christian” morals this country was founded on, and how that gives us some special favor with God, you are sadly falling for the propaganda. Please see the Adullum (Christian) historical films below:

    Hidden Faiths of the Founding Fathers:

    Eye of the Phoenix / Secrets of the Dollar Bill:

    Riddles in Stone / Secret Architecture of DC:

  368. Charles Johnson, There are people who cannot access adequate health care. The poor have some access, though not quite enough. For example they can have a tooth pulled; but saving the tooth is not covered.

    The middle class who are not covered on their jobs are not covered at all. They must become poor to be able to access health care. Only the rich, or those with conscientious and well endowed employers can cover their employees. Until Obama’s reforms, they were denied coverage for diseases such as cancer (which Obama’s own mother experienced, and died as a result). And they were often put away with the “pre-existing condition” excuse. Their children were not covered over 18. And now, thanks to Obama’s reforms those issues are better for Americans. How do Christians justify fighting for and wishing for the old system? I’d like to hear the answer.

  369. David Helms Jul 12th 2012

    to Margaret…

    People suffer and die all over the world, but nobody suffers and dies in the United States from the lack of Healthcare. Nobody is denied healthcare here, what is being argued is who is going to pay for it. In the US, we believe in personal responsibility, where people are expected to take care of themselves rather than rely on a “Nanny-State” to take care of us.

    Let’s just face the facts… to say that “the government pays for it” is an easy way to say “I want somebody else to pay for it”. People are said to be greedy for not wanting to pay for other people, but no one considers it greedy when everyone wants something for nothing.

  370. To all you foreigners who do not know it, America already has free healthcare for the poor, and that is called Medicaid; also every person in America who goes to an emergency room can be treated for free if they cannot pay. There is also free food, welfare, housing supplements, and local charities and community organizations that give stuff away. If you don’t know what your are talking about, please refrain from your anti-American comments. In fact all of you who are not Americans, why don’t you look to your own countries and criticize them instead of us? Personally I don’t give a rat’s behind what you think of us. All we want to do is live in a FREE country, with the government off our backs, so we can worship as we please. God only asks 10% tithe, yet the government takes 40-50% of our income in taxes and wants more all the time. To me, THAT is un-Godly. I work so I can have to give, and give to the needy of my own free will, and not the government’s will. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!

  371. And has anyone here ever heard of believing GOD to get your needs met, and not the government? Why don’t you go out and teach THAT concept! That’s what Jesus did, if you want to know WWJD?

  372. David Helms Jul 12th 2012

    Well said LC…

    A little angry, but that’s understandable considering the anti-American sentiment I’ve read here.

  373. kelling Jul 12th 2012

    Try flavored mints instead of political parties, go out and heal the sick in the name of Yashua, ya got a mustard seed of faith?

  374. Kelling, that’s another good point, what about going out and ministering healing, how many of you complainers here are doing that?

  375. Why Andrew why? There is an idolatry here you have touched on with this debate. Now what? You going to mature the Body of Christ via this fruitless public debate? Those who are blind are suddenly going to see and be set free through debate? Preach the gospel..let the Spirit convict..but don’t invite debate or “questions” over these type of issues..did Jesus or his disciples set that example? What would the Apostle Paul say? Would he be here entrenched in this type of conversation over these issues?

  376. Tiffany Jul 12th 2012

    Sad…very sad the behavior of many of you who profess to be “christian” here. Clearly reading most of the comments with the hint of bitterness, sarcasm, unkindness and flat out lack of brotherly love it is so obvious where your hearts are and clear that many lack the fruits of the Spirit and continue to choose to walk according to the deeds of the flesh with opening your hearts to so much bickering and mean spiritness. My greatest concern is when I think of those who don’t know Jesus as Lord and Savior and encounter such critical people who profess to know him. Surely they will run the opposite direction.

    For those who’ve had great experience with this movement “Tea Party”, that’s wonderful for you but I’ve not seen the “Godliness” you speak of in fact just the opposite. I’ve seen in many of their rallies where participants held signs up with cartoon drawings of an “African American” in a negative form linking such to the president of the U.S. with “slang” and derogatory words written upon them, many racial slurs and such and this you call “Godly”, “Christian”, etc.? There’s not once ounce of love and/or kindness in such behavior. It’s okay because The Lord sees ALL and everyone will have to give account for his/her actions one day in the presence of the King of kings and Lord of lords so be careful how we represent HIM.

    Also, I keep hearing the term “take OUR country back” OUR??? While so many “professing believers” are so focused on the country, the church itself lacks! The church itself is an embarrassment because she still tries to fit in to the worlds agenda rather than be “set apart”, “special” a “peculiar people” :) I’ll speak for MYSELF ONLY, I was not called to any political movement nor was I called to “take back the country” etc., here’s what I have been called to do:
    Share the gospel of Jesus Christ to All I encounter. Love the Lord my God with all my heart, all my soul, and all my mind and to Love my neighbor as myself. PRAY for those in authority over me including the government, etc. etc. etc. Remember I said I speak for MYSELF only therefore I refuse to concern myself with the things of this world and will focus more on how to please my Heavenly Father and to continue to share the message of Jesus Christ my Lord to the lost and hurting sheep that have yet to enter into the fold.
    To Andrew, thank you again for your boldness in speaking the truth! You are NOT as someone wrote a “false prophet” in fact you are as REAL and as TRUE as they come. Often a TRUE prophet of God is called “false” when he does not speak the thing man desires to hear, but speaks the things God has laid upon his heart. A true man of God you are, Thank you! Thanks also to “Onesimus” (Tim) who spoke the words that were in my heart, to which I agree completely!

    God bless each and every one of you!

  377. Andrew Jul 12th 2012

    Sad to say-
    The thing that has distressed me most about this discussion is the personal attacks and nasty remarks. In soccer, you get penalized for “playing the man and not the ball”. There has been a lot of this – which usually happens when people do not want to face the actual ISSUES. So they “shoot the messenger”. I am very sad about this.

    I urge everyone to go back to my original article at the top. You will see that I was NOT saying many of the things that people have accused me of. My whole concern was SPIRITUAL – not POLITICAL. That was the entire point!

    Please hear my heart in this. If I did not believe it was a big concern, I would not risk the “bashing” and name-calling to write about it. To me, there is terrible ugliness in the “Christian Politics” scene – and it is getting worse – and bigger. It needs questioning. But sorry to all who were offended. Please take the time to read my article again – carefully.

    My blessings to all – and especially anyone who has been wounded by this discussion.

    Kindest regards in Christ,

    Andrew Strom.